Learning Through Experience

What if the institutions we rely on—our workplaces, schools, and legal systems—aren't built for full participation? And what if real change starts not from the top, but in small, intentional spaces we create ourselves? In this episode Heidi Brooks and legal scholar and change-maker Susan Sturm explore the paradoxes of institutional transformation, and how facing uncertainty–rather than seeking to eliminate it–can create new possibilities for participation, collaboration and justice.

Drawing from her new book, What Might Be: How Universities and Other Institutions Can Change, Susan shares how we can confront the tensions within our systems—between power and powerlessness, justice and exclusion, certainty and humility—without rushing to resolve them. Through personal stories and deep insights, she introduces the concept of micro spaces of justice—small but intentional environments where people model the institutional change they wish to see. These spaces, she argues, offer a path forward amid today's polarization and institutional inertia.

This episode invites listeners to rethink their role in shaping institutions, reimagining power, and embracing paradox as a source of transformation. Listen now and join the conversation on what might be possible.

Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to [email protected]. And subscribe to the monthly LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about episode topics and questions to ponder.

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Resources

📘 Susan Sturm's book: What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions(Princeton University Press, 2025). Explore Susan's vision for full participation and the paradoxes at the heart of institutional change.

🎭 Theater of Change at Columbia Law SchoolBased on a methodology developed by Susan Sturm, Theater of Change is a collaboration between the Broadway Advocacy Coalition and Columbia Law School, bringing together law students, artists, and directly impacted individuals to co-create justice through performance and policy.

📝 Essay: "Paradoxical Possibility: Embracing Anti-Racism Contradictions" A compelling companion essay to What Might Be, Susan Sturm offers further insight into navigating paradox in the pursuit of justice.

Show Notes & Key Moments

2:15 – Holding Contradictions: Beauty, Tragedy and Institutional Change A photograph of 9/11 memorial candles sparks a key theme: learning to sit with paradox. "I find myself in spaces of contradiction all the time. The challenge is learning how to be in both places at once."

3:24 – Three Defining ExperiencesSusan shares what led her to this work: a complex family upbringing, navigating power and powerlessness in the legal system, and a transformational collaboration with Lani Guinier.

6:13 – Why Institutions Struggle with Full ParticipationNo institution gets it right—but that doesn't mean change isn't possible. "The work is in moving closer, not waiting for perfection."

9:01 – The Role of Everyday LeadershipReal change isn't just top-down. Susan challenges listeners: What's your role in making your workplace or community more participatory?

14:57 – Micro Spaces of Justice: Change Starts SmallInspired by Adrienne Maree Brown's idea of fractals, these intentional spaces allow us to practice the world we want to see. "They show us what's possible—even before the larger institution is ready."

14:41 – Why Change Requires Practice–and Why Lawyers Struggle with this WorkTransformation isn't a quick fix. "It takes practice, patience, and a willingness to fail forward."Legal training reinforces certainty and authority—often at the cost of flexibility and relational intelligence. "The best lawyers, and the best leaders, learn to hold complexity."

27:23 – The Power of Paradox: Making Sense of the Messy Middle

Creating just institutions means navigating tensions that don't have easy answers. Susan explores three key paradoxes—about power, identity, and the institutions themselves—that must be understood to drive meaningful change.

34:44 – What Can We Do? Moving from Awareness to Action

Understanding these paradoxes is one thing—acting on them is another. Susan and Heidi explore concrete ways to make change, from shifting mindsets to building micro spaces of justice.

39:21 – Vulnerability as LeadershipReal growth begins when we stop fearing mistakes. "Transformation happens when people are allowed to fail safely."

41:45 – Learning in PublicHeidi shares how she's experimenting with vulnerability and growth in her own teaching spaces. "There's so much here between us. We're walking the path in real time."

What if the challenges you're facing aren't obstacles—but invitations to grow? In this episode, Heidi Brooks and leadership expert Jennifer Garvey Berger explore how we grow through uncertainty, not just survive it. They also discuss why change is essential for leaders, how to turn everyday challenges into opportunities for growth and why embracing imperfection might be the key to thriving in an anxious world.

Sharing insights from her book Changing on the Job, Jennifer talks about the power of character development, the conditions that make learning possible and the small but profound shifts that help us navigate complexity. She and Heidi unpack a paradox of leadership today—where we admire vulnerability in others but still strive for perfection ourselves.

Together, they ask: What if the difficulties we encounter are actually the curriculum for our growth? Whether you're a leader facing high-stakes decisions or simply looking to approach change with more courage and curiosity, this conversation will challenge the way you think about learning, leading and transformation.

Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to [email protected]. And subscribe to the LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about the episode topics and takeaways.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Show Notes & Key Moments

2:40 – From Teaching English to Coaching LeadersJennifer shares how her early love of storytelling and character development led her to leadership coaching: "I've always been fascinated by how people grow and change. Now, instead of just reading stories, I get to help co-author them in real time."

5:00 – When Change Becomes UnavoidableThe most meaningful transformations happen when people recognize that their old ways of thinking no longer serve them: "My favorite experiences are when people say, 'Hey, me—I need to be different.'"

11:30 – Work as a School for AdulthoodJennifer challenges the assumption that personal growth stops after childhood: "We hit 20, and suddenly there's no more context for growth. But workplaces should be the schools of adulthood."

22:00 – The Conditions That Make Learning PossibleInstead of resisting difficulties, what if we saw them as part of our learning curriculum? Growth requires both challenge and support: "Organizations know how to push people, but they often forget to create the scaffolding that helps people rise to the challenge."

35:00 – Noticing the Invisible Forces That Shape UsThe first step in transformation isn't action—it's awareness: "Can I begin to notice more? The assumptions I carry? The way I react? The invisible currents shaping me?"

39:00 – Experimenting with New Ways of BeingJennifer encourages small, intentional experiments in daily leadership: "Could this meeting be a learning event? Could I approach this conversation differently?"

42:00 – The Surprising Lesson of AI & Human ConnectionHeidi and Jennifer discuss why some people find AI more "empathetic" than humans—and what that tells us about the way we show up for each other.

45:00 – The Lifelong Practice of Growth

Something to sit with: "Getting behind our growth can be painful, but it's also the greatest relief."

Creative expression is essential for everyone—to think differently, connect deeply and thrive through uncertainty. In the Season 4 premiere of Learning Through Experience, Heidi Brooks welcomes Ivy Ross and Susan Magsamen, co-authors of Your Brain on Art, for a thought-provoking conversation about how engaging with art can help shape the way we learn, collaborate and navigate life's complexities.

Ivy and Susan share their personal journeys into the worlds of art and neuroscience, revealing how aesthetic experiences, whether through music, visual art or movement, can rewire the brain, strengthen emotional wellbeing and foster connection. They explore the science behind neuroplasticity and the role of sensory engagement in daily life. This episode is an invitation to reimagine learning and leadership, inspiring listeners to embrace art—not just as a form of expression but as a tool for building resilience, expanding perspective and finding wonder in the everyday.

Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. For deeper insights and reflections about each episode, subscribe to the LinkedIn newsletter. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to [email protected].

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Show Notes & Key Moments

00:00 | Welcome to Season 4: How Art Helps Us Face UncertaintyHeidi Brooks introduces the season's theme of "facing uncertainty" and why experiences with art are essential in uncertain times. Ivy and Susan reflect on the growing impact of Your Brain on Art and the movement it has sparked.

01:54 | The Unexpected Paths to Creative ExpressionSusan shares how her twin sister's health journey inspired faith in art's healing powerand sparked her lifelong interest in art and neuroscience. Ivy recalls how growing up in a maker's home led her to a career at the intersection of creativity, business and human potential.

08:41 | Why Experiencing Art Matters—-Even If You're Not an ArtistSimply listening to music, viewing a painting or standing in awe of architecture can spark emotional and neurological shifts that help us feel more connected, grounded and resilient. Heidi shares her experience bringing art into leadership education at Yale.

12:22 | Unlocking Your Brain Through Sensory Experiences Susan explains how sensory experiences activate neural pathways that support memory, learning and improved mental health. The arts, she argues, are essential for cognitive and emotional well-being.

19:09 | Relearning How to Feel, Not Just ThinkIvy challenges the common belief that learning happens only through thinking, emphasizing that we are feeling beings first. They discuss why the arts should be central—not optional—in education.

30:02 | Can Art Make Us Better Collaborators? Yes.Ivy shares how incorporating art and creative exercises helped her build high-performing teams at Mattel and Google. The secret? Trust, play and shared sensory experiences.

35:56 | The Science of Group Flow: Why Shared Experiences MatterSusan and Ivy explore how teams can synchronize at a deep level. Ivy describes her experiment using sound frequencies to enhance brainstorming sessions.

43:30 | From Coping to Thriving: The Keys to FlourishingSusan breaks down what it takes to truly thrive—curiosity, awe, enriched environments and play—and how interfaces with art helps us build a capacity to thrive..

46:52 | A Final Invitation to Notice MoreIvy offers a simple but profound takeaway: "Pay attention to what gets your attention." Noticing what moves you is the first step toward living a more enriched and connected life.

Additional Resources

• Your Brain on Art website: https://www.yourbrainonart.com/
• What is neuroarts? https://www.yourbrainonart.com/what-is-neuroarts
• Aesthetic Mindset Index https://www.yourbrainonart.com/aesthetic-mindset-index
• Blend of science and art improving neurological health: https://www.pbs.org/video/your-brain-on-art-1685477928/
• How the Arts Can Benefit Your Mental Health: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/22/well/mind/art-mental-health.html
• How music and dance affect your brain and body: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/03/02/music-dance-painting-brain-mental-health/
• 'Your Brain on Art' explore how even bad art makes for good health: https://datebook.sfchronicle.com/books/your-brain-on-art-health-benefits-17775845

Welcome to a new season of Learning Through Experience! This season will explore something that resonates deeply with everyone right now: facing uncertainty. My conversations are with a diverse array of exceptional guests who will talk with us about how they see and experience uncertainty through their lens. Together, we'll dig into the mindsets, practices and environments that allow us to learn, adapt and thrive, even in—perhaps especially in—these uncertain times. Welcome to Season 4. I love having you here!

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Thank you for tuning in this season on the Learning Through Experience podcast! In this season 3 reflection episode, I take a step back to reflect on the key themes, conversations, and experiences that shaped the show.

This season featured several insightful and impactful conversations. I highlight discussions with guests like Lisa Lahey on overcoming change, Mark Brackett on emotional intelligence and attunement, Liliana Milkova and Jenny Frederick on the definition of education, Avi Kluger on feedback, Kim Weston on personal transformation through art, and Amy Bloom on writing to be read.

As the podcast looks ahead to the new season, I am grateful to the students, team members, and listeners who have supported the podcast. I am so glad you're here!

Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. For more insights about each episode, subscribe to the LinkedIn newsletter.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Writing has the power to transport us to the depths of the human experience – to illuminate the joys, sorrows and complexities that make us who we are. In this captivating final episode of Learning Through Experience Season Three, Amy Bloom and I explore the transformative power of the written word.

Amy, an acclaimed writer and psychotherapist, shares a poignant reading from her memoir "In Love," which provides a deeply personal window into her journey with her late husband's early-onset Alzheimer's. The conversation takes us into the nuanced relationship between writing for oneself and writing for an audience, as Amy offers her thought-provoking perspective on the importance of reading diverse perspectives to enrich one's creative voice.

Join us as we ponder the art of revision, strategies for creating a safe and supportive environment for student writers, and all the profound ways in which reflective writing can shape our understanding of ourselves and the human experience.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Key Topics

4:16 Reading Aloud: "In Love: A Memoir of Love and Loss"

Amy reads a powerful excerpt from her memoir "In Love" about her husband's early-onset Alzheimer's.

9:21 The Importance of Reading Diverse Perspectives

Amy discusses how reading widely, beyond one's own experiences, has shaped her as a writer, and emphasizes the value of understanding complex human emotions and motivations to create compelling characters.

13:18 Writing for Yourself vs. Writing for Others

Amy draws from insights on her process of transitioning from private writing to crafting an engaging narrative for readers.

17:36 The Art of Revision and Refinement

Amy describes her approach to the writing process, including the importance of starting with a vivid moment and building from there. She also emphasizes the need for constant revision and refinement to make the writing more compelling and accessible for readers.

24:53 Creating a Safe Space for Student Writers

Writing can be a struggle and failure is inherent. Amy shares her experience teaching writing and the strategies she uses to foster a supportive, yet provocative, environment for students.

32:28 The Transformative Power of Reflective Writing

There can be many sides, or perspectives, to any individual story. Amy explores the value of engaging deeply with one's own stories and examining stories from multiple perspectives, while not shying away from the less heroic or pretty aspects of personal narratives.

Additional Resources

• Darien Library discussion on YouTube: Amy turns the lens inwards in In Love: A Memoir of Love and Loss, a courageous memoir that challenges: what are you willing to do for the one you love? And what is our own right to die?
• When Her Husband Said He Wanted to Die, Amy Bloom Listened - NY Times
• NY Times - How to Raise a 'Warrior Queen': For 12 years, Yiyun Li taught her writing students a story by Amy Bloom about the power, and limitations, of love. Confronting unbearable grief, she returned to it.

Imagine a world where education isn't just about information but about inspiring awe—a spark that transforms learning into discovery. This episode of Learning Through Experience envisions this future where teaching and learning are more collaborative, experiential and empowering, for instructors and students alike. As my guest Jenny Frederick, director of Yale's Center for Teaching and Learning, emphasized in our conversation: "When experiences bring the conceptual to life—like, wow, I get it now—it can be a moment of wonder."

Join us as we discuss the value of embracing ambiguity and equipping students with the skills to navigate uncertainty—a crucial capacity in our rapidly changing world. Beyond theory, we explore how disciplines bring unique strengths and shadows to the learning experience. When classrooms become spaces where curiosity sparks discovery and uncertainty fuels growth, we unlock the potential for truly transformative learning. Wonder isn't just a feeling; it's a force that drives connection, resilience, and creativity in education and beyond.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Key Topics

7:51 Broad Horizons: The Value of Diverse Education and Career Exploration

Heidi and Jenny explore the value of a broad education and exploring different career paths and discuss the metaphor of structure and function in chemistry and its relevance to teaching.

14:06 Normalizing the Learning Journey: The Mission of the Center for Teaching and Learning

Jenny describes the Center for Teaching and Learning's mission to connect learning support and teaching support, and its efforts to encourage help-seeking behavior and normalize the struggle of learning.

21:05 The Student-Centered Shift: Instructors as Guides in the Learning Process

Heidi and Jenny discuss the shift towards more student-centered approaches in teaching, and the role of the instructor as a facilitator or guide.

28:04 Cultivating Wonderment: Designing Relevant and Shared Learning Experiences

They explore the importance of creating experiences that foster relevance, interest, and room for wonder, as well as the power of shared experiences in a co-created learning environment.

36:03 Interdisciplinary Insights: Equipping Students to Handle Ambiguity

Jenny highlights the benefits of interdisciplinary programs and richer conversations, and they discuss helping students develop skills for navigating uncertainty and ambiguity.

45:04 Wrestling with Complexity: Naming Conventions and Tackling Hard Questions

Heidi and Jenny explore the desire for quick answers and the value of wrestling with hard questions, as well as the importance of naming and taming disciplinary conventions to create more open learning.

54:01 A Vision for Experiential and Collaborative Education

They envision a future where education is more experiential and collaborative, with the goal of making centers like Yale's obsolete by empowering the community.

Additional Resources

• "Educationalist: Around the World" podcast (2022) on "leading an integrated center for teaching and learning"
• Inside Higher Ed Q&A (2022)

What if listening could change everything? This raw and captivating episode with guest Avi Kluger reveals how listening and the "space between" people can unlock new ways of seeing, feeling and transforming, and profoundly reshape how we lead, connect and grow.

A pioneering researcher in feedback and organizational behavior, Avi shares his personal journey to understand the power of listening and its potential to unlock unexpected depths in ourselves and others. Beyond theory, he shows us the real-world stakes of genuine human connection. In a world where productivity often overshadows humanity, this conversation is a call to reimagine our workspaces and relationships as places of connection, resilience and hope.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Key Topics

02:56 A Personal Journey: Growing Through Feedback

Avi reflects on his early life and how the intense feedback he received from his father shaped his career and lifelong dedication to understanding the impact of feedback.

08:06 Limitations of Traditional Psychology and Statistics in Understanding Interpersonal Dynamics

Avi discusses how his personal experiences led him to realize the limitations of traditional psychology and statistics in understanding interpersonal dynamics.

13:54 Creating Space for Change: Transformation Through Connection

Heidi and Avi discuss the "invisible space" between people during meaningful interaction—a dynamic that invites growth, fosters transformation, and becomes a unique shared experience.

22:43 The "Togetherness" That Opens Us

Avi introduces concepts like "positivity resonance" and "togetherness," suggesting that growth occurs in a mutual space of connection, though such intimacy can be short-lived.

28:13 Feedforward vs. Feedback: A New Approach to Growth

Avi describes "feedforward" as a process focused on growth and exploration rather than judgment, contrasting it with traditional feedback that often triggers defensiveness.

33:42 Listening as Developmental: The Art of Being Present

Exploring methods for effective listening, Avi highlights the importance of being present and co-exploring with the other person, using specific questioning techniques to guide them in self-discovery.

Additional Resources

• The Power of Listening in Helping People Change, Harvard Business Review
• Positive feedback: the science of feedback that actually works, Financial Times
• Listening, Not Feedback: A Powerful Way to Improve Well-Being and Performance, EdWeek

Learning through experience is dynamic, not static. As you'll hear in this episode with artist Kim Weston, her photography is a way of deepening understanding of ourselves and the world around us, seen and unseen.

Through compelling story and image, Kim takes us on a journey where each photograph tells a story of heritage, community and spirit. As she says, "Our ancestors are with us; the people we loved in the past are still beside us, even though we can't see them with the naked eye." Tune in to discover how Kim's evocative work is transforming spaces and touching lives, inviting each of us to engage, reflect and experience life through the lens of art.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Key Topics

03:37 Finding Art: From the Bronx to the Museum

Early experiences shape lifelong learning and creativity. Kim reflects on her childhood exposure to art in New York—immersive experiences that informed her sense of self and future as an artist.

06:25 Identity Through Art

Representation in art can challenge societal norms and expand our understanding of beauty and identity. Kim describes her early fascination with the strength and diversity in Renaissance paintings.

09:31 The Power of Mentorship and Community

Mentorship serves as a relational experience, shaping identity and purpose. Kim recalls formative years at Jamaica Arts Center, where mentors like Thelma Golden helped her realize the potential of her work.

10:37 A Path to Spirit Photography

Personal challenges can reshape our life's work. Kim shares the transformative impact of a health crisis, leading her to capture "spirit" and energy in her photography.

20:52 Art as Community Experience at Yale

Discussion about Kim's art installation at Yale School of Management, in a shared space where students can encounter Native American cultural expressions through the images. These works invite connection and reflection, bridging personal identity with shared experience.

27:12 Movement in Stillness: Capturing the Essence of Life

Heidi reflects on the "kinetic stillness" of Kim's photographs, which capture multiple moments in one image, creating a sensation of life in motion. Kim shares the intentional artistry behind her technique, which aims to convey both presence and spirit.

30:52 Connection, Heritage and Earth Stewardship

Reflect on the spiritual, experiential aspects of learning. Kim's art is a reminder of our collective journey.

Additional Resources

• kimwestonimages.com + wabi.gallery
• @kimwestonimages + @wabigallery
• From Wabi Arts to Westfield, Kim Weston Grows Her Artistic Footprint (Arts Council Greater New Haven—2022)

Learning through experience requires us to shift from the purely intellectual to a more holistic engagement. I try to create that shift by opening each of my leadership classes with some form of art—a poem, a piece of music or a visual work. It's a way of helping my students, many of whom are management or law students, executives, or leaders in their fields, step out of their typical "brain-bound" mindset and into a space where they can let their thoughts, emotions and values guide their learning. For many, it's an inconvenient and unfamiliar approach, but it's exactly what I believe opens their minds and hearts to walking an unconventional path toward growth.

Dr. Liliana Milkova and I share a passion for this type of experiential learning. The Nolan Curator of Education at Yale University Art Gallery, Liliana uses art to foster reflective, perspective-shifting experiences to encourage people to slow down and engage deeply with what they see and feel. Drawing on her upbringing in Bulgaria and her extensive work in art education, she shares how object-based learning can transform the way we think and connect with others.

I encourage you to experience this episode by watching, versus just listening. Join us as we explore how art can shift the way we think, learn, connect and grow.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Key Topics

02:19 Learning from Cultural Heritage – Growing up in Bulgaria, surrounded by historical objects, fostered Liliana's deep connection to experiential learning, teaching her to engage with the world through observation, curiosity and reflection.

09:38 Teaching Through Art – "Teaching through art" rather than "teaching about art" catalyzes deeper, shared learning experiences—making abstract concepts more tangible through observation and personal interpretation.

14:37 Object-Based Learning – Through careful observation and multisensory experiences, learners develop critical thinking skills and form deeper connections with content.

18:00 Collaborative Learning and Perspective-Taking – Exercises like "Back-to-Back Drawing" improve communication and empathy by describing and interpreting objects from different angles.

32:39 Learning How to Learn – Developing individual strategies for processing information and engaging with experiences helps to build confidence and adapt to new situations by embracing diverse ways of thinking.

42:43 Reflection and Slowing Down – Slow down to fully engage with an object and allow time for deeper reflection. Creating space for shared insights and dialogue enhances the learning experience.

Resources

• Explore the Yale University Art Gallery Collection
• The University Museums and Collections Journal (UMACJ) on how university STEM and medicine classes are utlizing art collection in teaching and learning
• Object-based learning resources
• Object Based Learning: A Powerful Pedagogy for Higher Education: A powerful pedagogy for higher education — Queen's University Belfast
• Engaging the Senses: Object-Based Learning in Higher Education - 1st E (routledge.com)