Leaving Well: nonprofit leadership guidance for workplace exits and transitions

Marti Carrington has over 20 years of corporate and nonprofit human resources and operating experience and has a passion for changing organizational culture from the inside out. She believes this can be done in partnership with activism, political change, and social reconstruction. Marti serves on the Board for Nebraska AIDS Project (NAP) and Girl Scouts Spirit of Nebraska. Marti is a mother of three kids and in her limited free time, enjoys reading, running with friends, and solving the world's problems over a cocktail with her husband.

When it comes to human-centered HR professionals, Marti is at the top of my list. In this episode, we discuss her own experience with leaving well and change, and Marti shares some hard-hitting truths about how to handle those last few days at your jobs.

"The company I worked at, my dad had worked at my first sick day. I called him in tears. I was like, Oh, I have to call them. I was a grown woman. I was like in my twenties. And he was like, okay. Cause he'd never had a sick day and like worked through cancer treatments. And when my dad died. People missed him, individuals, that company did not miss him. Seeing that, cause we worked in the same place, seeing that happen was life changing for me. My perspective on the workplace changed in an instant. So that also gave me, I think, courage to lead the way I wanted to lead when I had people work for me and shaped my leadership philosophy. And also when I decided to leave companies, again, people might miss you. But the rest will be okay."

Additional Quotes:

"Are you leaving the culture more fulfilled? Were you modeling your values in that space? I hope people feel joy when they interact with me, so I strive to leave a place more joyful."

"Leaving well is when everything feels settled, and the waves stop crashing a bit. "Okay" is a really good thing to strive for. If a transition is happening to you or happening around you, how can we get to "it's okay"?

To connect with Marti about her organizational health / DEI / speaking / workshop services with MC2 (Mallory Carrington) https://evolvewithme.squarespace.com/

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To learn more about Leaving Well, visit https://www.naomihattaway.com/

This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.

Tanya Geisler is a Leadership Coach (CPCC) with a penchant for clarity and an abhorrence of the Imposter Complex. She's worked with thousands of high-performers combat the Imposter Complex so they can lead with impeccable impact and achieve their ultimate goals. She is a TEDxWomen speaker and writer who teaches high-performing leaders how to combat their Imposter Complex and lead with impeccable impact so they can achieve their ultimate goals. Her clients include best-selling authors, heads of industries, MPs, public speakers, leaders, entrepreneurs and rockstar motivators.

It is her indomitable belief that if everyone knew their own unique recipe for their personal brand of joy, they'd hold the key to shining in their life, in their work and in their life's work. (It really does change everything.)

In this episode Tanya and I discuss Imposter Complex and how it shows up when facing big transitions. We also chat about the relationship of transitions in the workplace to menopause and empty nesting (yep, we went there) and the unpopular reality that we are actually, always (bold, underline) in transition.

"So when you are on the precipice of that something new, something important, something great, something wonderful. So you get to have this arsenal of proof. And so looking at all of these moments in your life, all of these decisions that you didn't maybe recognize as precipice moments, you add that up and you've got this and you've got this and then some."

Additional Quotes:

"Leaving well is someone getting on the train to leave this place well, feeling as complete as possible, having left it better than we found it. If you don't solve for what is happening in your world right here, right now, it will follow you wherever you go - whatever train you get on. This is your opportunity to leave this aspect behind."

"Usually how we want to feel in one area of our lives, is how we want to feel in other areas. Which then will always inform how I move forward and how I deepen into my devotion or reverence for each particular part of my life."

To learn more about Tanya:

• Iconic Identity quiz https://programs.tanyageisler.com/quiz

• 12 Lies of Imposter Complex https://tanyageisler.com/12lies

Recommended reading from this episode:

• Karen Walrond's Lightmaker Manfesto https://bookshop.org/a/7803/9781506469942

To learn more about Leaving Well, visit https://www.naomihattaway.com/

To support the production of this podcast, peruse my Leaving Well Bookshop https://bookshop.org/lists/leaving-well-resources/ or buy me a coffee: buymeacoffee.com/naomihattaway

This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.

Navigating the loss of a job, being fired from employment, being laid off, or in any way suddenly dealing with the loss of income (and benefits) can bring up an immense spectrum of emotions. Because we don't normalize talking about these emotions, we perpetuate and further harm from the experience. In this episode, I'm helping you navigate through this period of life with lists of things to expect, do, NOT do, and focus on right now.

Additional recommended resources:

Career Valet Resume Services

You are more than your job - Jopwell

Robert Half Salary Calculator

To learn more about Leaving Well, visit https://www.naomihattaway.com/

To support the production of this podcast, peruse my Leaving Well Bookshop https://bookshop.org/lists/leaving-well-resources/ or buy me a coffee: buymeacoffee.com/naomihattaway

This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.

Katie Panciera serves as an Assistant Professor at Milwaukee School of Engineering (MSOE) in the Humanities, Social Sciences, and Communications Department. She teaches a wide range of classes, primarily in the User Experience Program, and left a career as a Senior User Experience Researcher at Google to teach at MSOE. Her research interests lie at the intersection of gender, race, and disability in computing education. She has a number of degrees, but is most proud of being a graduate of Berea College in Kentucky. She lives in Milwaukee with her husband and daughter and spends most of her time reading and knitting and definitely not wandering down internet rabbit holes.

In this episode, Katie shares about her long-arc of leaving, starting as a young age with a father in academia (and frequent moves due to that), continuing through her own leaving: trading tech at Google for her own career in academia. Katie talks about how she brings the lessons learned across her own journey through school and her early career, now to her students. We discuss caretaking for each other, prioritizing your own needs when job searching, and really great advice about not overworking.

"I think it's kind of like Leave No Trace. How can I make the space a little bit better? How can I pick up a couple of pieces of trash along the way so the next generation or the people who fill my job after me, are set up for success?"

"One thing I constantly tell my students, especially if they aren't white, cis male students, is that they don't need to meet all of the criteria [when job seeking]."

"If we go back and look at all of our job descriptions, how many are actually what they said? Our jobs really are based on us. No one gets into the first job and does not receive training. It's assumed you don't know things. Good managers and good teams shift things based on skill sets and what they see."

"Don't work 60 hour weeks, because if you work 60 hour weeks and your manager thinks you're working 40, they will assume the next is working 40 hours per week when they're working 75."

To learn more about Katie, visit her website: https://www.katie.panciera.net/

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To learn more about Leaving Well, visit https://www.naomihattaway.com/

To support the production of this podcast, peruse my Leaving Well Bookshop https://bookshop.org/lists/leaving-well-resources/ or buy me a coffee: buymeacoffee.com/naomihattaway

This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.

Networking expert + coach, J. Kelly Hoey is the author of Build Your Dream Network: Forging Powerful Relationships In A Hyper-Connected World (Tarcher Perigee/Penguin Random House). She's embarking on her second book which focuses on the unique networks women need for professional success.

Kelly's career has evolved from law to management to entrepreneurship. Being invited to lead a global business network for women, co-founding a startup accelerator, appearing on CNBC's Power Pitch, contributing to various publications (including New York Times, Inc., Fast Company, and Forbes), and co-creating (along with moderating) the Meet The Innovators speaker series at the Apple Store in SoHo (New York), are a few of her unanticipated career highlights. Kelly has worked with a range of organizations, including Google, Cisco, Oracle, Comcast, AMC Networks, Capital One, Canadian Digital Media Network, New Zealand Trade and Enterprise, National Australian Bank, Westpac, Prudential, PGA of America, Pfizer, Bristol-Myers, and The Tory Burch Foundation.

This episode is inspired by Kelly's recent "peeved off" moment after experiencing an unfortunate exit from a community space. During our conversation we discussed keeping the recruitment promise, the reality that community tending and the leaving process is everyone's job, and how to measure the cost of terrible departures.

How can we calculate the value and the volume of each loss? How do we put a value on cynicism that gets shot into your organization because someone has chosen to leave and they haven't been treated well? How do you value a decline of culture? How do you measure a misalignment of talent value? You need to look at your brand and value statement as a company and say, "do we live up to this in terms of how we value our people when they leave?"

Think of your recruitment promise as more than just when they walk in the door. Understanding that exits are part of your brand, so decide which parts of your brand can go all the way through to the exit. How are you managing your exit interviews? How are your exit interviews aligned with the recruitment promise you made to them on the way in?

It's confusing to me that you would flush so much phenomenal goodwill. The person who's leaving could be a referral source for talent, or business, or new members.

To connect with Kelly:

• Kelly's website: https://jkellyhoey.co/

• Kelly's book: Build your Dream Network - https://bookshop.org/a/7803/9780143111498

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jkellyhoey

Recommended Reading:

• Necessary Endings - https://bookshop.org/a/7803/9780061777127

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To learn more about Leaving Well, visit https://www.naomihattaway.com/

To support the production of this podcast, peruse my Leaving Well Bookshop https://bookshop.org/lists/leaving-well-resources/ or buy me a coffee: buymeacoffee.com/naomihattaway

This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.

Kelly Connolly is a Licensed Master Social Worker, passionate about pursuing equity and the common good, by addressing issues of systemic injustice. Her work has led her from the frontlines of humanitarian aid crises to the council chambers of local government. Her steadfast belief is, as Fyodor Dostoyevsky says, "Beauty will save the world", and that together we can co-create communities where all our neighbors can thrive. She currently lives in Chicago, IL with two rambunctious kittens and spends her days reveling in the gifts of this incredible city and centering rhythms of rest, pleasure, and play.

Kelly is a former Waco Texas City Councilmember, who resigned from her elected office after two years, left her marriage of 6 years, and moved from her hometown of 10 years all in the span of five months. In this episode, we talk about the dichotomy of knowing you're meant to be in a place, even when serving is not easy. We also discuss societal norms that do not give permission for leaving, and leaving when there's no other option.

Note: this episode contains occasional use of the f-bomb!

I do not think it should be the cost of admission, leadership shouldn't come at the cost of threats to your life or loved ones, bullying, harassment. That narrative kept me going, as proof that maybe I was doing "this" right. Because I'm getting so much pushback, I'm fighting the good fight. It was good until it wasn't.

What marks the best of who I was in office? I was willing to be true to my integrity and values, to make decisions to the best of my abilities, in the best interest of my most marginalized neighbors. Often that just meant acknowledging that these neighbors fucking existed in our community and were worthy of dignity and worth. That f***ing matters. It was worth me using that platform that was responsible, kind, and good. That's what I'm most proud of.

Some endings are hard, and some endings are mostly just good. That's allowed. You are allowed to have a mostly just good ending. All of my endings -because they were really interlocked - were an exit from things that were out of alignment and a return home to myself. Nothing is worth the cost of not belonging to myself, not feeling comfortable in my skin, in places where me talking or staying silent is a threat.

I imagine people listening to this podcast are looking for signs. They're either looking for signs to stay, or they're looking for permission to leave. I would just say: trust the wisdom of your body. Often our bodies know things before our brains have the language to process and put things neatly in boxes. We cannot be led astray when we listen to that still voice in our gut that is saying stay, go, or wait.

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Kelly's book recommendation:

• The Wisdom of Your Body: Finding Healing, Wholeness, and Connection Through Embodied Living: https://bookshop.org/a/7803/9781587435522

My book recommendations for this episode:

• Rest as resistance: https://bookshop.org/a/7803/9780316365215

• Emergent Strategy: https://bookshop.org/a/7803/9781849352604

• Your Caring Heart: https://bookshop.org/a/7803/9780991640188

To learn more about Leaving Well, visit https://www.naomihattaway.com/

To support the production of this podcast, peruse my Leaving Well Bookshop https://bookshop.org/lists/leaving-well-resources/ or buy me a coffee: buymeacoffee.com/naomihattaway

This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.

Shannon Watts is widely known as a "summoner of women's audacity." As the Founder of Moms Demand Action, Watts was named one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People, a Forbes 50 over 50 Changemaker, and a Glamour Woman of the Year. She is the author of Fight Like a Mother: How a Grassroots Movement Took on the Gun Lobby and Why Women Will Change the World.

This episode was recorded one week before Shannon's final speech to the Moms Demand Action volunteers and supporters at the annual GSU (Gun Sense University). During our conversation, Shannon shares about the decision to leave her role of the organization, as Founder, and her experience of processing the transition away from that very public-facing role.

"Even though I worked very hard to not have founder's syndrome, it didn't mean that my identity wasn't tied up in the organization. Who am I without this?"

"You don't have to do the work to completion, you just need to be a part of the work."

"Leaving Well means doing it without doing harm, and with integrity. That means asking others to hold you accountable."

"As much as you can, leave knowing you've protected yourself and the work you've done, that's the most we can ask for."

To connect with Shannon:

• Purchase her book: Fight Like a Mother: https://bookshop.org/a/7803/9780062892584

• Follow her writing on Substack: https://shannonwatts.substack.com/

• Follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shannonrwatts/

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To learn more about Leaving Well, visit https://www.naomihattaway.com/

To support the production of this podcast, peruse my Leaving Well Bookshop https://bookshop.org/lists/leaving-well-resources/ or buy me a coffee: buymeacoffee.com/naomihattaway

This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.

Naomi is passionate about community building, equity, and accessibility, and consults on inclusive program design, leadership effectiveness, and communications. Naomi also owns 8th & Home, a network matching folks on the move with Realtors who chase communities not commissions.

After living across the US, her family moved overseas to India where she learned to thrive in the midst of chaos. Following one year in Singapore, they moved back to the US and have traipsed their way through Florida, Virginia, Ohio, and Nebraska, and now back in Florida.

Love language: accountability, tattoos & really good playlists.

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In this episode, I share about the origin of the Leaving Well framework, and how our family has implemented the concept as we've traipsed all over the world, and back to the United States. I also discuss how it's served my real estate clients well as they move from home to home. The crux of the episode finds me telling the story of how the leaving well concept integrated into my workplace and organizational health structure during my tenure in executive leadership at an affordable housing nonprofit.

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Resources and articles mentioned in this episode:

• Chikungunya: https://www.naomihattaway.com/blog/i-wouldnt-wish-chikungunya-on-my-worst-enemy

• I Am A Triangle: https://www.naomihattaway.com/blog/i-am-a-triangle-and-other-tips-for-repatriation

• Leaving Well, by Jerry Jones: https://www.thecultureblend.com/leaving-well-10-tips-for-repatriating-with-dignity/

To learn more about Leaving Well, visit https://www.naomihattaway.com/

To support the production of this podcast, peruse my Leaving Well Bookshop https://bookshop.org/lists/leaving-well-resources/ or buy me a coffee: buymeacoffee.com/naomihattaway

This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.

Coming on September 6, 2023, Leaving Well: A Navigation Guide for Workplace Transitions podcast will be live! Leaving well is the art and practice of leaving a job, role, project or title with intention, and when possible … joy.

In this podcast, you can expect to find conversations with experts on topics such as grief, leadership, confidence, career development, and more. We'll talk with those who have experienced the necessary endings that come with jobs, projects, and roles. And we'll come together to normalize the experience of change and our impact and legacy in the workplace.

I'm Naomi Hattaway, your host. After 16 moves - three of those being international moves - and several decades of career pivots through various leadership positions, I believe in the powerful impact of Leaving Well. I am a quintessential weaver and bridge-builder. I see through-lines of connectivity and impact between people, places, organizations, ideas, and movements. People know me as someone who brings gentle accountability, structure, and thoughtfully designed community-based solutions. I am often described as steady yet innovative, and it would be my honor and pleasure to step beside you as we learn more about Leaving Well, together.

Learn more about me on my website, and don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you'll see my first episodes automatically downloaded on your podcast app beginning on September 6, 2023.