Let's Talk About Bodies!

Everyone please welcome my friend and fellow actor, writer, producer, Christine Dickinson, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Christine is an actor, a writer, and a producer, and I met in our acting class at Crash Acting a few years ago. She very recently debuted her one-woman play “Mother” in Los Angeles, CA, and the show was phenomenal. We’d had this conversation before I saw it, and I will say that many topics of convo that Christine brought to the fore were beautifully touched on in her show.

In our conversation, we discuss…

* Breaking the generational trauma cycle (with body image and more broadly)

* The debut of her one-woman, one-act show “Mother” and what inspired her to write the play

* How rehearsing her play brought her body image story front and center

* The conscious permission it takes to write about topics we don’t necessarily feel “qualified enough” to speak on

* The comment her play makes about the impacts of social media on today’s culture

* Navigating our feelings around our bodies

* Her body image story - from being praised for being thin and invalidated in her feelings about her body, to uncovering a body image story through the rehearsal of her play

Christine so openly shared her body image story with me, and her vulnerability to speak on these topics she’s just recently started to face head on is beautiful. Her thoughts on generational trauma and the impacts of social media on our individual body image are powerful, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!

“I think a lot of comparison is what comes up in the play, kind of in a subtle way. But there are a lot of different videos in the video sequences that you see that indicate that my character is doing girlhood or womanhood incorrectly. So you have one person saying, “Hey, if your body is larger, that’s bad, and you should fix that.” And then another person, “If your body is smaller, that’s also bad and you should fix that.” And then, “Oh, you should be dainty and feminine and always keep a groomed appearance.” And then like, “No, fuck that!” And then, you know, all of these different, you know, expectations about what we should and shouldn’t use our bodies for. And yeah, then there’s, you know, the whole topic of what happens to your body during pregnancy. That’s something that’s explored in one of the video series as well.”

- Christine Dickinson

Megan Gill: Hi, Christine! I’m so excited to talk with you, and I’m just so glad that you’re here.

Christine Dickinson: Hi! Thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited. I’m a big fan. I’m a big Megan fan.

Megan Gill: Hey, I’m a big fan of you! Do you wanna just start by introducing yourself and introducing your work in the world?

Christine Dickinson: Yes, I’m Christine Dickinson and I am an actor, playwright, and new producer. And right now, I am producing my first original work called Mother, which will be a workshop production of my one-woman show.

Megan Gill: Which is just so exciting because, at the time of recording this, you are premiering this piece to the world in just a couple of days!

Christine Dickinson: Yep. Yep!

Megan Gill: How do you feel?

Christine Dickinson: I think, more than anything, excited but also terrified. So I would say it’s probably equal parts both. This has been something that’s been marinating for me for a couple of years. A few years ago, I wanted to write a screenplay of this kind of a thing, and now it’s kind of evolved into a play and, you know, that’s a little bit more my realm anyway than film. So I’m definitely excited to share the story in a medium that I have been working in for so long. But scary because I’ve never really put my own voice out there like this before. So I would say it’s a little bit of both.

Megan Gill: Oof, I just got chills. That is so, so totally fair. Okay, so the premise of your story is, “In this comedy thriller play, a daughter faces the cost of being a woman in a modern world where her mother isn’t answering her calls.”

Christine Dickinson: Yes.

Megan Gill: Can you share a bit more about the premise in the story and kind of these themes of what it is to be a young woman today and how those themes are woven into the piece?

Christine Dickinson: Yeah, absolutely. So the play opens when a daughter, my character, comes in from a long-haul flight, and the first call is, you know, just checking in with the mom like, “Hey, I got home,” that kind of thing. And it becomes pretty clear that something happened during the last moments that we saw each other, because I guess the idea is that we live on opposite sides of the country, and I no longer live near my mom. So the phone is really the only way that we can connect. So there’s this idea that something happened, and we’re not quite sure what happened, but there was some sort of tension between daughter and mother that was unresolved before the daughter left to get on a plane to go back home.

So that’s where we start. And throughout the play, without giving too much of it away, we start to see this person’s life shake out kind of maybe how you would imagine it to with a lack of guidance or support. And many of the troubles, again, without getting too much into it, because it’s only 40 minutes. So I’m like, there’s not a ton that I could really tell about the plot that’s not a total spoiler.

Megan Gill: Totally. No spoiler alerts!

Christine Dickinson: I’m like, I just tell you the whole thing right now. “In scene six, this happens.”

Megan Gill: I’m like, “No, I’m seeing the play this weekend!” And I’m so excited. I cannot wait!

Christine Dickinson: Yes. Okay. I won’t spoil it for you. But, you know, it’s everything to do with the things that we have to face, particularly as women in a modern world, everything from pressures of how we look, pressures of how we are coming off (especially to people who have authority over us like employers), pressures of being equal parts girl boss and equal parts dainty, feminine. And then we kind of dive into this whole world of like, whoa, okay, these are modern lenses on these issues, but these are really issues that have existed for centuries.

So we kind of go back and look at some ancestral stuff a little bit and some things that – like what happens when we experience traumatic things and we leave those traumatic things unchecked and we continue to reproduce, especially when it’s a woman giving birth to a daughter, and then she has a daughter, and then she has a daughter. And how those cycles kind of don’t break themselves unless somebody breaks it.

Megan Gill: That is such an important thing to be talking about and something that I very much think our generation is all about looking at and uncovering and trying to get to the bottom of. So I just think it’s really beautiful and also quite relevant to probably what many women are unpacking today.

Christine Dickinson: Hmm. Yeah. Thank you. What’s really interesting about writing this play was that I think we had actually had a conversation years ago because, when I saw your short, A Broadway Body, the screening of that, I felt really inspired. And I was like, “Oh, I’m writing something that’s kind of touching on something similar to this.” And I think we had a conversation about that because I was so inspired. I was like, “How did you sit down and write this?” I kind of felt like I abandoned that project for a while, but then I sat down, I think it was February, and I was, like, “Ooh, I’m really kind of feeling something right now.” And so, I just sat down without thinking of it being a play or anything. I think I just wrote a conversation or a one-ended phone conversation, like a voicemail, like so much of this play is a voicemail series. So I think I just wrote one. From there I was like, “Oh, this is kind of setting something off in me a little bit.” And then I stepped away from it for I think a couple weeks, and then I went back to it and I read it and I was like, “Oh, no, no, no. Something else happens after this.” And it just kind of one thing led to the next, to the next.

I just, over the course of maybe two months, kept walking away and then coming back, and then it was just so abundantly clear what happens next in this person’s story. And I didn’t know how this play was going to end until I sat down and I wrote the final scene. And I think my fiancé, who was literally in the room. He came in, in the middle of me writing it, and he was like, “Hey, how was your –?” And I was like, “No. No, no, no. Hold on, hold on!”

Megan Gill: “Zip it! Not now!”

Christine Dickinson: Hold on one sec. Hold one second. And then da, da, da da, last line of the play. “Okay. Yes, it was fine. Um, take five and I’m gonna read you this.” So yeah, it just – like, I had no idea some elements of it, that were coming in, until literally I was writing it. It was as if something was kind of moving. It sounds silly when I say it, but it’s like something else was moving through me that was not my own narrative anymore, even though it felt like it started off that way.

And even in the rehearsal of it, the reading of it, all of this, we had a dress rehearsal on Sunday, and even in that I’m like, “Oh, there are things that I’m discovering in this text that I was not aware that I was putting into it.” Yeah, so it’s been a really strange experience. So bizarre for me and foreign but cool.

Megan Gill: Wow, that’s so cool and so magical. And how beautiful that you literally produced these words and these words came out of you, and yet you’re still finding so much in them and so much that you are discovering and didn’t know was coming out of you at the time. Are you familiar with Elizabeth Gilbert’s work?

Christine Dickinson: Not super.

Megan Gill: Okay. She wrote this book called Big Magic. When I was moving out to LA, I read it and I was obsessed with this concept because it had happened to me one time before, and it’s this concept of inspiration is flying out there, right? And then inspiration hits you, and either you take it right then and there and you alchemize it into art or you kinda let it pass by you and it’ll go to somebody else. And this feels like a bit of a Big Magic moment because it’s so outside of yourself, but also it’s so beautiful to hear how you were just inspired and hit by this thing that you couldn’t say no to that helped you produce this piece. Anyways, I just think it’s so cool.

Christine Dickinson: Yeah. That is really interesting and cool to hear that this is a thing that – because, in a way, it does kind of feel that. And I think there have been moments of that for me before in glimmers, but it’s always kind of been, “Ugh, yeah. But it would be stupid if I did it.” Like, “Yeah, other people can do this, but like, I don’t think my narrative needs to be heard or my narrative isn’t really quite ready to be heard or like, who am I to really speak on something like ancestral trauma, and who am I to speak on this thing?” And there would be things that I was about to write, and I was like, “Ugh, no. I don’t wanna be the one to say that because I don’t feel qualified to speak on that.” But then I would be like, “No, I’m gonna do it anyway.”

So it was a lot of conscious permission that I had to give myself. And I think – and I brought this up in class too, when we were talking about the play and the creation of it is that I’ve been having to give myself, different versions of myself permission throughout the entire creative process of this, where I feel like my actor-self was kind of on my shoulder when I was writing it saying, “It’s okay. You can say that. I will take care of the words for you. When it’s time for them to be heard, I will take care of that and do that due diligence and build the belief that those words deserve in order to not just make it true to you, playwright, Christine, but to make this transformative for other people as well.” And then when the actor in me was really (and continually is) very hard on myself about the performance of it and like, “I don’t know if that was embodied,” or “I don’t know if that was present,” or “I don’t know if that was true,” the playwright in me is like, “It’s okay. I gave you room to discover things in this. It’s okay that you’re not crying during this line that I was crying during when I was writing it. Like, that’s okay.”

So it has been this continuous permission that playwright is giving actor and actor is giving playwright. That has been really cool and interesting and, and weird. I never thought that I would feel so different as the actor than I do as a playwright. I feel like we’re different people. I mean, obviously it’s both me. This sounds very odd and silly, but I’m not the same person.

Megan Gill: It makes sense! It’s different facets of your vessel, right?

Christine Dickinson: Yeah, and I’m a different person than I was in February when I started writing this. And so, there were many moments where I was so hard on myself where I’m like, “I’m not feeling emotionally moved. This is so – these are the words that I wrote. Why am I not feeling moved?” And it’s like you have to experience those as you are right now for that to be in any way accessible to other people as well. So yeah.

Megan Gill: That’s really lovely. Thank you for speaking to all of that. I know that when were chatting a bit about this piece, you had mentioned that there were parts of the process where some body image themes were coming up for you. Are these baked into the play, or are these kind of subliminal things that, obviously, just by nature of being a woman growing up in today’s culture, is just a part of our life and was actually probably a part of women’s lives for a long, long – for forever and ever, and we’re just now starting to kind of acknowledge them in a different way? But I’m just curious if that’s something that – when these themes of body image started to either come up to you or hit you or maybe made you question your own relationship to your own body – I know that there’s kind of a lot in that, but if anything is jumping out to you, I would be curious to hear.

Christine Dickinson: Yeah, absolutely. So when I was writing this, a majority of the body image stuff kind of came up in the second draft. There are little cameos of other students in the – we have multimedia, so it’s video collage. It’s Instagram reels or TikToks, whatever you want to call ‘em. And we have several of those, and my character is living alone. Her mother’s not speaking to her. So these are really her only form of connection with other people is through these videos. They’re the only other faces that we see on the stage. So, you know, naturally, when we don’t have close relationships and we’re kind of just seeing what other people want us to see, in my experience, it’s been a lot of comparison that will come up from that. Especially these days, social media is being used as a marketing tool and it’s not entirely honest about that. So that is something that’s really touched upon.

But I will say my own personal deep-rooted body image stuff didn’t really come up for me until I started rehearsing this. I’ve always – I mean, I feel like every woman, really every person, has their own body image story. But mine didn’t really take a front seat until I started really working on this. And I think it became really abundantly clear some of the things that I had been struggling with and pushing down for a really long time once I started confronting this in my work on this play, in particular.

Megan Gill: Wow.

Christine Dickinson: Yeah, I think a lot of comparison is what comes up in the play, kind of in a subtle way. But, you know, there are a lot of different videos in the video sequences that you see that indicate that my character is doing girlhood or womanhood incorrectly. So you have one person saying, “Hey, if your body is larger, that’s bad, and you should fix that.” And then another person, “If your body is smaller, that’s also bad and you should fix that.” And then like, “Oh, you should be dainty and feminine and always keep a groomed appearance.” And then like, “No, fuck that!” And then, you know, all of these different, you know, expectations about what we should and shouldn’t use our bodies for.

And yeah, then there’s, you know, the whole topic of what happens to your body during pregnancy. That’s something that’s explored in one of the video series as well. We have someone featured as a content creator who is going through some pregnancy struggles in her videos, and then my person watching that from a third-person perspective, empathizing for her but also being jealous of her but also being confused by her. So I would say a lot of the issues, my own personal struggles with body image, it’s crazy to say, but for the first 28, 29 years of my life kind of got pushed down, and I was like, “No, no, no. That’s not – I feel a little negatively about myself, but that’s not front and center. But now I’m like, “Okay, yeah, no, it is.”

Megan Gill: Wait, that’s really interesting because – sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off.

Christine Dickinson: oh no, go ahead.

Megan Gill: But this tie between, “Oh, my body image struggles aren’t legit,” is kind of what I am taking from what I hear you saying, you shoving them down, and then you exploring this thought that had come up for you around writing and telling your own stories of, “Oh, well why me? Why my stories? Why?” It’s so interesting that these are both coming to a head at the same time. You deciding to open up and share your heart in this new and very vulnerable way, I’m like, wow, it makes a lot of sense that now is the time that you are giving validation to some of these experiences and feelings and things that maybe you haven’t looked at in this particular way before. And it’s such a – there’s so much nuance in that, I think. I don’t know. I just wanted to point that out because I’m like, “Whoa.” But then also. All of this is happening at the same time. There’s a lot going on here!

Christine Dickinson: Yeah. I didn’t even think about that before, how it is kind of happening at the same time. And so, I think it makes sense why I feel a lot of pressure right now. I will say, the play is a little bit of a call out towards very toxic ideologies that are kind of being promoted on social media right now. Yeah, I mean, not explicitly calling anyone in particular out, but sort of calling out certain types of videos, certain messaging, certain tones, some of them very subtle. And the actors that I gave the scripts to, it was really, really cool to see because I had kind of an image in my head when I was writing it, and then I cast, you know, whoever was interested in being cast in it, and I put it out there, and to see these people’s spin on this was so cool because like, no, it’s not what I envisioned all the time. But to see their spin and to see their language and to see them embody that, it’s like, “Oh, okay, these people get it. I’m not screaming into a void. These actors, they’re on the same page as me that this messaging is also bad without making it so in-your-face, preachy this is bad.”

So yeah, I’m really excited for people to see the cameos as well because they’re a super talented, amazing bunch who just all jumped right into it and were like, “Yeah, let’s do this!” They took the script, made it their own. I told everybody to kind of ad-lib a little bit, and they all did. So, yeah. But it is definitely a little bit of shade. There’s a little bit of shade in there, and I’m not gonna lie about it.

Megan Gill: No, I’m here for it, obviously. I’m obsessed with that. And what a cool experience too for you to have to be like, “Oh, I’m not alone in thinking that this is fucked up or that this isn’t how we should be approaching these conversations.” Like, these actors get it too!” Because also, one of the reasons why I am having these body image conversations is because image is not something that is talked about a lot. It’s a very vulnerable topic, and like you said, we all have a body image story. I believe that as well. And it’s scary to talk about that and sometimes you’re maybe not even in touch with your body image story or things haven’t come to a head for you yet, so what a lovely experience to be like, “Oh, they also get it.”

Christine Dickinson: And I hope that people who are seeing it can kind of – it sounds kind of cliché to be like, “I hope people can relate,” but I hope that people can see it and feel a little bit more seen because, like you said, this is not something that we hear people talking about. I think you and I had a conversation maybe a couple months ago or something where I was talking about this thing that you’re doing and, you know, I think one of us said you see people’s likes, right, on social media. And that’s such a big part of this is that you see who likes what. And so, you’re like, “Oh, that makes me sad that this person that I’m close with is liking this thing that is very clearly telling them to change something about themselves.” And you see certain people that kind of shove these very toxic ideologies on people about how you should be or how you should look, and you see people that you know and love following them and it’s like, “Okay, I think that more conversations need to be had about this because this person is saying that you need to change your body in a way that is not sounding like it’s shaming you, but it is because it is telling you that you need to change. I think I saw this ad the other day that was like, “You’re not fat. You just have high cortisol,” pointing to different parts of her body. And I’m like, okay, so these ads that they’re making are more harmful than they were 15 years ago because they’re saying, “I’m not body shaming you. I’m just looking out for your health.” And it’s like, no, you are because my doctor has never said anything about that affecting my health, and you are telling me that I need to change that about myself. So that in and of itself is not ethically good, and the fact that companies and brands are hiding behind that is very, very disturbing.

Megan Gill: I absolutely agree, and I’m so glad that you are calling it out and have written about it and are speaking in your own way to this cultural phenomenon that’s going on that is, in a way, just sort of brushed under the rug. And then also just to call back to this ad that you just witnessed, all I can think is, well, here we are demonizing being fat. Like, come on. Have we learned nothing, people? Yeah.

Christine Dickinson: Yeah, and also using the phrase, “You’re not fat.” It’s like, “Okay, and if I was?” Also, you don’t know who you’re talking to. So it’s just, so bizarre.

Megan Gill: Being fat is not this horribly terrible thing that our culture has made it out to be. It’s literally just a descriptor.

Christine Dickinson: Right.

Megan Gill: This person is fat. This person is skinny. Those are descriptive words. Fat does not equal bad. Fat does not equal unhealthy. It’s, yeah, all of these different pieces of the conversation that are, like you said, just so subtly okay.

Christine Dickinson: Mm-hmm. I did not survive the Tumblr “nothing tastes as good as skinny feels” epidemic just to experience this again in my thirties.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Christine Dickinson: I didn’t go through that, which I, objectively at the time, knew was wrong. Going through that and now looking through this as an adult, and especially – I work with teenage girls. I see that they are, like many other teenagers, kind of chronically online. And it’s very disturbing to see that no matter how supportive your family members are, no matter how many supportive adults you have in your life, that as a teenager in 2025, this is what you’re constantly being bombarded with. It’s heartbreaking, and there’s nothing that adults can really say when their favorite influencers, their friends, their favorite celebrities are endorsing these companies that are like, “GLP-1s, GLP-1s, GLP-1s.” It’s like, how do you – I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m kind of at a loss for words thinking about it, to be honest.

Megan Gill: No, I hear you. So am I. Because, like you said, how are we still here, for the teenagers today or for the young people today? It’s like we already went through all that shit, and here we are again? And it’s rearing its head and making a comeback in this really odd way masked in health. And everything is online. We can see fucking everything, and it’s impacting everyone in such a different way than it was. And maybe that’s a through line to this concept too is that this has always been a thing. Preaching health and preaching thinness has always been a thing, but for our generation, when we started to come online, where I think it really started to become more of an epidemic – granted, I don’t know. I haven’t done the research into the seventies, eighties, nineties, and our moms and our parents’ generation. But the way that it affected us now, tying into how social media was starting to become a thing when we were young. And now that social media is a huge thing and it’s still here and it’s just shape-shifted, and it’s now just being approached in different ways and we’re being marketed to in weird, sneaky ways, it’s always been a thing. The question is how do we continue to try to do better and make a change? And I think it’s so fudging hard, because it is so baked into our culture, in our society, right?

Christine Dickinson: Yeah.

Megan Gill: I love my mom so much, and she doesn’t mean harm when she does these things, but the way that she was raised to applaud thinness and to applaud weight loss was just something in reflecting on my body image journey that she did when I lost weight. When your own mom is like, “Go, you! You lost weight! You look great!” Oh my God. I’m like, yeah, of course she’s doing that because that’s how she was raised. And now that social media is a thing and everyone’s online and people are having these different opinions and are having conversations about body image and are writing more art about body image online or the ways we’re marketed to by influencers or whatever it is. I feel like I’m just on a soapbox at the moment. I don’t even know where I’m going with this, but like, yeah, I’m like this shit has always been here, and is it going away? Are we really going to be able to do anything about it? I mean, it breaks my heart too because I’m like, I can vision a different way and a different world, but it’s gonna take a lot of work on a lot of fronts, right? I don’t know if you have thoughts on that too. Sorry, I’m sweating. Worked up a sweat!

24:23

Christine Dickinson: Me too! I’m pissed off about this. No, for real. Yeah. Everything, everything you said, and it’s interesting that you bring that up about your mom because I think that that’s such a generational thing. When I was much younger, I was very praised for being thin, not just by my own mother, but by everybody. I was a really skinny, small-framed kid. I was very long and skinny, long and thin, tall and thin. And I was also a very weird kid. I was a very bullied kid. I was a very quirky, not normal kid. I had a lot of social issues. I had a lot of social anxiety. I still do. But as a kid it was like, “Well, at least you’re skinny.”

And I remember when I got older, and I was in high school, I had a very close friend who I was talking to about – I have all these other physical insecurities. I’m like, “I don’t like this, I don’t like that. I don’t like this, I don’t like that.” And she was like, “Christine, I need you to shut up because you’re skinny.” And I’m like, oh, okay. So I’m not allowed to have issues or concerns and none of that is valid because I’m thin?” And so, I think I really glamorized my own thinness, and I never looked at someone else and was like, “Oh, I’m better because I’m –,” not consciously, anyway. That was never something that I equated other people’s beauty with. But I think because I had been praised for so much of my life for being skinnier, I hid behind it and I was like, “Okay, yeah, I’m fine,” right?

So then it really hasn’t been until maybe the last two years of my life (like 28, 29, 30), where I’ve looked at myself in the mirror, and I’ve thought, “Okay, I am heavier than I’ve ever been,” objectively speaking, and I see myself a little bit differently now. And I think when you’re raised to equate your thinness with value of yourself, when that goes away, being told you look healthy is an insult. It’s a stab to the heart because you equate, “You look healthy,” with not thin. Because before you were very skinny. You were thin, and like, “Yay. We that,” I guess. And now when you ask a close friend or a family member or a loved one, “Do I look thin in this?” And they say, “You look healthy.” That means no, and that can kind of shatter a person’s self-worth who has gone their entire life being told that thinness for you is all of your beauty. That’s all of your beauty right there, is the fact that you’re skinny.

Megan Gill: Jesus. Yeah.

Christine Dickinson: Yeah.

Megan Gill: That is some heavy shit right there. And also some very real shit too that has just been put on so many of us, specifically, I think of our generation too, or at least the ones that are – you know, no matter when you come around to taking a look at it or examining it or realizing it’s happening or are curious about it, it’s really not okay, and it’s really devastating. And I think what’s even more devastating is that we like to think that’s not what’s happening, right? But you sharing that story, your story, is proof that it is. And that when we tie our value and our “worth in this world” to the shape of our body, which is just the reality of what’s going on and what has been going on forever and ever amen and is potentially not stopping anytime soon, that’s not okay, and it’s really fucked up. And it’s really – the emotional labor that is now put onto that person, whether you’re me when I was 16 like, “Oh my god, I am getting bullied for my weight, and I am fat and I’m getting all these messages,” or you’re 27 and you’re like, “Whoa, I’ve always been thin, and I am now being referred – my friends are telling me I look healthy.” And also, I just wanna point out the fact that looking healthy, A) what does that even mean? But also healthy is relatively used as a good, positive word.

Christine Dickinson: Yeah.

Megan Gill: Like, “You look healthy!” That’s good.

Christine Dickinson: Yeah.

Megan Gill: You don’t look like you’re dying, thank goodness, not to mock that. I think that just shows the depth of how devastating the impacts of the messages we receive about our bodies actually are.

Christine Dickinson: Yeah, and I think the answer – I mean, I don’t know the answer, but what I think the answer is towards making this stop, making anything that is evil and bad in the world to stop, it always starts inward, I think. Anything that’s hurting people, anything that’s making people feel insecure, anything that’s making people feel betrayed by the vessel that’s carrying them throughout their life, it all starts inward.

It all starts with work on yourself because people, not to shame anyone for procreating or not, but I think a lot of the times people have – and this is something that’s explored very much in Mother is that people will have children without even looking inward at healing any of their past traumas. They’ll just say, “I’m just gonna be better for this child. I’m just gonna be better because I now have the responsibility of taking care of another human being.” But the reality is that that little child, particularly that little girl is hearing you call her beautiful and then is watching you look at yourself in the mirror and hate what you see.

And that’s something that’s very much, without spoiling it, something that we dive into a little bit in this play is like there’s a whole monologue about what can we do to make sure that our children aren’t constantly obsessing and fearful in the same ways that we have been? And the way to do that is by stopping doing that yourself. Children don’t take on and learn based on what you tell them. They take on the behaviors that you, yourself, exhibit. You can’t say, “Don’t dance on the table,” and then dance on the table and expect your kid not to get up with you.

Megan Gill: Right.

Christine Dickinson: You have to walk the walk in so many ways, and I think this might be a controversial thing. I’m not telling anyone that they should or shouldn’t, or should have or shouldn’t have, but I think that a lot of people do have children and just don’t at all look at themselves anymore. And maybe they think that’s an act of selflessness because now I’m responsible – maybe it’s probably, more realistically, the pressures that society puts on moms.

And how much this country loves to hate on moms, despite the fact that, you know, women are told that we should be baby machines and they just don’t take care of you or give you maternity leave. It’s probably everything. It’s probably all of the pressures that are put on us, but I think a lot of people end up as parents, and they really have not examined the things that they need to examine in order to create healthy humans.

Megan Gill: Yeah, I absolutely agree, wholeheartedly. And that’s obviously how trauma just gets passed down generationally. And I think that I’m really proud of our generation because I think we are one of the first that is exploring therapy on a wider scale and is taking the time to look inward and say, “All right, let me look at my own shit and maybe get my own life together before I have kids, or just settle for a man.” I mean, I think it’s clear that a lot of women these days are still single well into their 30s – hi, I’m one of them – because they are not going to settle for not being healed or not being on a healing journey and not being with someone who isn’t right for them, and I think we’re breaking some of these traumatic patterns that our parents didn’t have the tools to break or didn’t necessarily know how to break.

And I don’t know if that’s also just social media and the internet? It’s very fascinating, but I am proud of the work that the millennials are actively doing. And I don’t know, I guess I’m just saying that because I am one and I see this happening amongst our generation. I think Gen X is included in that in some way, and obviously the younger generations too. Yeah, I think we are getting somewhere, but yeah, you’re so right that mother-daughter relationship where you are looking at your mom, and you’re right, you are looking at her words, but you’re also looking at her behaviors.

Christine Dickinson: Yeah.

Megan Gill: I think that in a lot of these conversations that I’ve had and in a lot of my own

conversations just in the world, I think a very universal experience that a lot of women have had is being young and looking at your mom, whether it’s in the dressing room or at home, looking at herself in the mirror and not being nice to herself. Oh, that was a nervous chuckle because it’s so fucking deeply, deeply sad.

Christine Dickinson: Mm-hmm.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Christine Dickinson: Yeah. And this is something – I’m so glad we’re having this conversation because I really had not examined these things until we started rehearsing this play. And it’s kind of at a point where it’s coming to a real head for me. And you know, I feel like I hear all of these people talking about their experience with it where they’re like, “Yeah, you know, and I endured all this stuff, and now I still struggle but I’m in a place of where I love myself and I’m able to take care of my body.” And I wish that I was there.

I think at this point, I think I’m gonna say I’m not there yet. The reality is I’m not in a very happy place with my self-image right now. I’m hopeful that this play and sharing this story and getting it out there and just speaking it out into the world is gonna be a good first step. And it’s something that I’ve now officially brought up twice in therapy. In the five years that I’ve been with my therapist, I’ve never brought it up. And this is now something that I’m able to bring up.

Yeah, I mean, I wish that I could, you know, come on here and share like, “Yeah, now I’m out of place of acceptance,” but I’m really not. And I think, yeah, a big first step of that is just calling it out, and I know that sounds like, “Oh yeah, first step is calling it.” Yeah, I said that a couple months ago and then two weeks ago I was crying in a bar bathroom because I realized I was the biggest in there, which was crazy. I’m like, okay, this is not – I was comparing myself to the other women at the bar who were all much younger than me, and I ended up crying in the bathroom and hiding for a really long time, and this was two weeks ago.

So, yeah, I mean, I think it’s a lifelong journey and I can’t really – I don’t know. I can’t really say that I’m in a super healthy mental space with particularly that, but I also have to be gentle with myself because the last five years have just been full-blown chaos for me, as I feel it has been for most people with the pandemic and everything. I feel post-COVID, everything’s been a fever dream. But yeah, I think the last couple of years of adulthood have just been very stressful, and there have been other things that have had to be front and center. And now that those things are all kind of taken care of, it’s like, all right, now it’s this thing’s gotta be front and center, so yeah.

Megan Gill: Thank you so much for sharing that, and what a lovely way to talk about that because, yeah, we can’t address everything at once, right? So I love that this is what’s front and center for you right now, and I know that working through this is only gonna take you to beautiful places. But I also just wanna share that I also firmly believe that we are never at a place of healed with our body or our body image or our relationship to our body, right? And I have to check myself a lot with this too because I’m like, “Wow, yes, I feel I’ve done so much healing and I’m in such a place,” and then I’ll turn around, and today I had a pretty bad body image day, man. It was pretty rough. And that happens all of the time. It’s just the ebb and flow of life, right? And I think that it’s just about getting the tools in your toolbox to be able to carry you through those bad days to then get over the hump to then maybe do it again two weeks later. Because that’s just the nature of life, right? And also I think it’s once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Once you come up to these body image roadblocks, I’ll just call them, within yourself, it’s like, “Well, that’s not going away now.” And maybe some of us have just been with ours for longer.

I’m really proud of you, happy for you. I hate saying, like, “I’m proud of you,” because that sounds so, I don’t know, oddly condescending, even though it’s not. But I just really love that you said that you were actively giving yourself grace throughout this process, and even when we come up against the setbacks and the bad days, that’s all we gotta do, give ourselves grace and remind ourselves that we are good and just question why this is coming up for us, right?

Christine Dickinson: Right.

Megan Gill: At least I do a lot of that, but I’m just really glad that you’re giving yourself grace, because sometimes that’s all we can do.

Christine Dickinson: Thank you for saying that. And it wasn’t taken in a condescending way at all. It made me very happy. So thank you.

Megan Gill: That’s good to hear!

Christine Dickinson: Yeah, it is a lot about giving grace to yourself, and I have a very hard time with that. I can go from here very, very quickly, jump off the cliff very, very quickly. Yeah, so it really is just about stopping and saying, “Why is this this way?” And I think a lot of it is where we live. I go back to Boston or Rhode Island or anywhere else, and I’m not confronted with the same amount of this as I am here.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Christine Dickinson: I feel it’s a little bit more normalized in LA too. If you don’t like something, you just change it immediately without stopping and sitting with it. I don’t think that that means that people don’t feel the same way in other places, but I think that here we’re just so constantly confronted with it. So then stopping and acknowledging that, and then getting out of that sometimes to just go somewhere else for a little bit and change of scenery and seeing other perspectives and seeing how different it is in other places and how you’re just like – you can kind of get a break from it and take a step out and say, “Okay, yeah, no. That place –.” I mean, I like living here, I love LA but this place sometimes can get a little much with that sort of messaging. So I think acknowledging that that’s a reality here as well for me, has been very, very important.

Megan Gill: Absolutely for me too, 100%. I’m glad you called that out. I have one last question for you before we wrap things up that I’m really excited to ask.

Christine Dickinson: Oh, boy!

Megan Gill: I’m wondering what your favorite thing or things about your body is or are. It can be physical, it can be non-physical. It can be a combination of both. Whatever strikes you. I know I’m springing this on you.

Christine Dickinson: I guess this counts. The first thing that came to mind when you said that, I guess it’s kind of physical, kind of not, my nervous system. Historically, that has been my least favorite thing about myself. But now I’m like, I don’t think I would’ve written this play if my nervous system wasn’t like, “Ughhh,” all the time because it is, “Ughhh,” all the time. If you know me, you know that I’m like a meerkat. But yeah, this play, I think because of the heightened nature of where I am all the time, even though I know it’s important to zen out and meditate and be chill sometimes, that’s not really how I am naturally. So I think my nervous system being so crazy is just keeping me safe and kind of exploring that within the play and seeing how that pushes me to different points. I don’t know, now I see it as a little intuition giving me a little boop, message about where to go next. So, yeah.

Megan Gill: I absolutely love that. And your nervous system is beautiful because it is keeping you safe, right? How freaking cool is that? Oh my gosh. Thank you, Christine!

Christine Dickinson: Thank you!

Megan Gill: I’m so, so grateful that we were able to have this conversation, and I’m so grateful to you for being so open and vulnerable and for sharing so many things about your play and about yourself and about your relationship to your own body and some of the things you find yourself coming up against right now, because that is just not easy to talk about sometimes. So I’m really, really grateful to you, and thank you for being here.

Christine Dickinson: Thank you. I’m grateful to you. Thanks for having me!

Megan Gill: Of course!

“ But I will say, my own personal deep-rooted body image stuff didn’t really come up for me until I started rehearsing this [play]. I mean, I feel like every woman, really every person, has their own body image story. But mine didn’t really take a front seat until I started really working on this [play]. And I think it became really abundantly clear some of the things that I had been struggling with and pushing down for a really long time once I started confronting this in my work.”

- Christine Dickinson

Christine is an actor, writer and creative living in LA. She is originally from Rhode Island, where she attended university and received her BFA in acting. Christine has been performing onstage for over 20 years, and moved to LA to pursue a deeper relationship with creativity. Her original one woman show MOTHER workshopped in October of this year. She hopes to take it to fringe festivals around the world. When she’s not working, acting or writing, she’s probably spending time planning her next mini road trip, catching a new movie with her fiancé, or snuggling with her sweet rescue pup Levi. Learn more about her project MOTHER on Instagram @calling.mother

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A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome Jennifer Ledesma to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Jennifer is an actor based in Chicago. She and I were auditioning in the Chicago theatrical market at the same time back in 2016-2018, and while we’d never booked the same show, we’d always see each other at auditions, in class, and in the community. (If you’re in the Chicagoland area, catch her in a show!)

In our conversation, we discuss…

* How prevalent it is for curvy and plus-size women to not be cast as the leading lady, love interest roles in musical theatre

* Being told to switch majors (away from musical theatre) in college, yet being one of the only working actors from her class

* The complexities of how our bodies and identities show up in the work that we do as actors

* Destigmatizing the BFA

* How Jennifer felt seeing a character breakdown that was meant for her, as a curvy, Latina actor

* How the “F” in BFA ultimately doesn’t matter

* Rediscovering the joy of dance through getting back into a movement practice that felt aligned for her and supportive of her strength and stamina goals

* The juxtaposition of knowing what you want to change about yourself and not hyper-fixating on them and viewing them as imperfections

* Embracing your curves instead of feeling shame for them

Our bodies and identities are so complex. Jennifer reminds us that so much of who we are impacts the work we do as artists. We discussed so many important topics, and Jennifer shared some incredible perspectives on an array of body image-related topics. I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!

“ I think that just adds a whole other layer to the whole conversation that we’re having about body image and perspective, because I think that’s why I was also really powerful with seeing a show like “Real Women Have Curves” on Broadway. There’s not a lot of spaces were we’re celebrating plus-size women of color, specifically Latina plus-size women, in the industry, and just a specific space for that. It’s such an indescribable feeling, but I would love to see more shows like that representative of those communities and inviting in what makes us special or what makes us unique and inviting us to embrace all those “imperfections” rather than excluding us from an industry in spite of them.”

- Jennifer Ledesma

Megan Gill: Hi, Jennifer. Thanks for being with me today!

Jennifer Ledesma: Hi, Megan. I’m so excited that we’re finally doing this!

Megan Gill: Me too. I can’t wait to chat! Do you wanna just start by introducing yourself and then sharing a little bit about who you are in the work that you do in the world?

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah my name’s Jennifer Ledesma. My pronouns are she/her. I grew up in Southern California, around the Anaheim, Disneyland area, but now I live in Chicago. I got my Bachelor of Arts degree in Musical Theater, and that’s primarily what I do. I primarily focus on stage acting in the musical theater world. When I was younger, I was training both as a vocalist and as a dancer separately, and it wasn’t until high school, where I was kind of trying to decide which route I wanted to go as a performer, when I went off for college. And then I found theater very late in high school. But that just kind of seemed like, you know, the best place to combine my passions for both.

And then I also play a few instruments. So yeah, and then I ended up moving out here to Chicago for school. And I’m very thankful for that because I probably never would’ve considered Chicago as a place to pursue theater. But I fell in love with it, and I’ve been here ever since. So I’ve been here for over ten years now, which is kind of crazy to think about.

But yeah, I mostly do musical theater, but what I love about Chicago is that I feel it’s really easy to pursue different ventures of the performing arts. So, you know, still performing in film, TV, commercial work. I feel Chicago’s really encouraging of new work too. So a lot of work that I booked coming out of school was a lot of new work. So yeah, that’s a little bit about me in a nutshell.

Megan Gill: I love that, and that’s where we met. We met in Chicago in the theater world. It is such a lovely community and a special, special place to be an artist and to be a creative.

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, and I feel with you and me, we’ve never worked together, but I feel we always ran into each other at auditions, and it was always so nice to see a friendly face. And I think that’s something that you really get the sense of in the Chicago theatre community. I feel everyone’s really, you know, advocating for each other as much as possible.

Megan Gill: I agree. It’s very unique and very lovely, and I miss it!

So, in light of what we’re here to chat about today, I’m wondering how your relationship to your body and body image influences how you show up as a performer in auditions, onstage, in these communal spaces.

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, I feel that’s such a loaded question and a very complex question to think about, and that’s why I’m so glad that we’re having this conversation. You know, I spoke a little bit about my background. My primary art when I was a kid is I started taking dance classes at the age of five because I have asthma, so my mom wanted me to do something active that wasn’t sports related, so I wouldn’t be out with dirt or whatever. And so I’ve been a dancer from age five through now. And my relationship to my body as a dancer has always been really interesting because I don’t have a typical dancer body. I am a curvy Latino woman. My boobs came in way earlier than a lot of my other friends when I was growing up. And, you know, I would always hear comments when I was preparing for dance recitals of – you know, when they would be fitting costumes on me, and they would make jokes of, like, “Oh, you’re just, you know, a little bit more well-endowed than the other girls.” And you know, it was always light fun, but I think I was definitely conscious about it, and I feel like that definitely probably also had an influence on me knowing that if I did pursue dance over being a vocalist when I was a kid, I knew that I was gonna have a really hard time doing that as an adult just because I didn’t have a dancer body. And I think it has definitely transferred in my life as an actor now.

It’s hard because, you know, I feel, even with my family, my mom is my biggest cheerleader. She’s the most supportive person, but she’s also very conscious about it as well. And I think when I was growing up, she would try to make comments of, “Oh, I’m just trying to make these comments to protect you because I want you to succeed,” which I understand her perspective, but it’s hard because, you know, when you hear your own mother, making comments about your body and that kind of thing. And I think as a musical theater artist, there are definitely times when I do ask myself would I be considered for certain roles if I didn’t look the way that I did?

And I even had this conversation with my agent when he and I have sat down and had check-ins of, “Okay, what’s working? What’s not working?” Because there came a point in my career about a year ago where, you know, I was getting auditions but I wasn’t getting callbacks, or I was getting callbacks but I wasn’t booking the job, or my agent was submitting me for things and we weren’t getting auditions. So part of me wondered because I’ve always gotten comments from people throughout my career here in Chicago.

You know, I started off doing a lot of ensemble work and have kind of worked my way up getting more supporting, leading roles. And I’ll always encounter people who are like, “I didn’t know you could sing like that. Why haven’t we heard you sing more?” And I’ve always kind of wondered would I book more leading lady-type work if I didn’t look the way that I did, you know, if I wasn’t a curvy woman. Because I feel like, especially the musical theater industry, can lend itself really heavily into stereotypes. So being a curvier girl, I feel I’m always pushed towards the best friend type or the comedic type or, god forbid, I’ve been called in for so many, grandma, 40-year-old, 50-year-old-woman tracks, which even in college, they prepped me for that, which is just – it really can do a psyche on yourself because it’s like, “No, I know I’m a 20, 30-year-old woman, and I know I can sing these roles, so it’s disappointing that I’m not being given the chance just because I don’t fit a certain mold.

And so, going back to your question in terms of how I show up, I feel I try not to let it push me down in terms of what I want to go out for. But it’s hard because sometimes I feel like if I’m self-submitting myself for something, I question, okay, do I want to submit myself for the role I think I have the better chance of booking or the better chance of getting an audition for, or do I want to submit for the character that I resonate more with or that I know I could do really well?

I have a pretty wide range as a vocalist. And I have a very upper-soprano register of my voice that my voice teacher is very supportive with. And he’s always like, “I want more people to hear this lovely part of your voice.” But, you know, as a plus-size woman, I just – you know you don’t see a lot of plus-sized women play the Lauries in Oklahoma or the golden age girls. So, and even Gentleman’s Guide, the love interest.

And, you know, going back to the whole comment I made about how it can have an influence on your psyche, it’s like yeah, curvy girls never get to play the love interest or it’s not seen as the norm in musical theater. And it’s just disappointing because in real life we have love interests! We have blooming love lives!

Megan Gill: Yes, absolutely. It is so disappointing and so disheartening, and so, it’s interesting to hear your perspective now in 2025, specifically, because it’s like okay, how much progression are we making? “We” as a loose term for the music theater industry, whether in Chicago, in New York, on Broadway whatever it is, how many strides are we actually making in terms of not casting inside this outdated body type norm that’s just been the way that it’s been forever and ever amen. And I just appreciate you sharing your experience still coming up against these walls and still coming up against these blocks. And it just hurts my heart because you’re right. It absolutely should not be that way. And it’s hard that it’s still 2025, and we’re still having to fight the fight. You’re still having to show up and ask yourself, “Do I want to submit myself to the role that I wanna book and that could maybe bust a producer’s mind open to, yeah, why are we not casting this curvy woman in this role? Why the hell not? Why can’t we?”

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, and I do think the industry has grown where it’s being more acceptive of that now. I have gotten the chance to go in for a few characters. It’s just, I wish it was, I think, progressing quicker than I would want it to, or you still come across people in the industry that do have those outdated perceptions of, like, “No, this character should look this, or this character should look that.”

And I’m also very lucky to have a really supportive agent where, you know, just in conversations with my therapist where I’ve talked to her about my frustrations with, you know, not booking the job or not getting called in for certain roles. And she just kind of encouraged me to have a conversation with my agent about it and see. I think it would be really helpful to see if other people think that this struggle of yours is something that’s stopping you from getting jobs or if that’s something that’s in your head.

And I kind of just asked my agent point blank, “Do you think, you know, this is having any kind of blockage on my why I am not getting work?” And he was really supportive, and he was like, “I would hate to think that. I don’t think that’s the case.” And he’s like, “And also, if that is the case, those aren’t the type of people we want to work with to begin with.” But he was very encouraging and was just reminding me it only takes the specific team, the specific show, that one “yes.”

And this was kind of my win, because shortly after we had that conversation, I got an audition to go in for Real Women Have Curves on Broadway, and I ended up getting a callback, and I had to fly to New York for it, which that was my first Broadway callback, and it excited me because ever since I had heard about the show, you know, becoming a musical, moving to Broadway, seeing the character breakdown, I was like, oh, have to be involved with this show because this is one of the first times I’m seeing a character breakdown where it says, “Mexican, curvy woman,” and it’s all facets of ourselves, you know? So that was a really lovely thing to see, and that was a really just cool moment where, you know, I was feeling down on myself and my relationship with my body and how I show up in the industry. And to have the opportunity to go in for a show like that where my agent, you know, after it happened, he just tried to remind me, “See, I was just saying, it just takes the right team, the right, you know, show the right opportunity.” And he was just the most encouraging person about it.

So even though, you know, I did not end up booking Broadway, it was a really, really proud moment that I had in my career, and I’m disappointed that show didn’t continue on Broadway because I loved reading the material for it. I had gone in for it, like, every iteration that they did: the workshop, the pre-Broadway run, and then when it went to Broadway. So it was cool, and it was different characters every time, so it was cool to stick with it. Yeah, it was a really cool opportunity, and I’m really hoping that show has a regional life because it’s such a stunning show.

Megan Gill: Oh, I’m so bummed. I was in New York in April, and I really wanted to see it. I was there for work, and timing of the shows with work. It didn’t line up.

Congratulations! I’m so thrilled for you, and there are a couple things here that I think are so important. First is how wonderful your agent is. Thanks for just sharing all the ways that he’s been so supportive with you, because I think that that relationship is so, so vital and I’m so glad that your therapist encouraged you to have the open dialogue with him and to talk about it. Because now, hopefully, do you feel more comfortable continuing a thread of that similar conversation, if things come up for you or if you want to discuss that type of stuff?

Jennifer Ledesma: I think so, and I think just being aware about it. If that makes sense. And I think if anything, my relationship with my body and as a dancer – you know, still in college I was, you know, dancing almost every day, taking classes. And then that just kind of stopped when I graduated. And I had this long period of my life in adulthood where, you know, you can’t afford dance classes as much as you could when…

Megan Gill: It was free! Yeah.

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, they’re expensive. So I kind of stopped training, and it was interesting too because in college I was kind of known as the dancer first. But I was really lucky that after I graduated college, a lot of the work I booked was off being more of a vocalist, being more of an actor first. And that kind of changed my perception of myself as well because I think it’s really easy for people to see you as one facet of yourself. “Oh, dancer first, you know, singer next,” or “I would define myself as a singer first, dancer second, or singer/mover,” you know, how we put all ourselves into these little categories or boxes. And in college, because of my dance background, I was just known as, “Oh, Jennifer’s a dancer primarily.”

And I’m really lucky that I have had the people in my life who have encouraged me or reminded me of, “No, you’re not just this one thing. There are other talents that you have that people should see.” So I’ve had the same voice teacher since college, my senior year of college, because he was the one that told me, “You’re a great dancer, but you’re also a really great vocalist.” I didn’t make my school’s – my school had two musical theater programs. We had the BFA track and then the regular BA track. I got into the school, but then I auditioned for the BFA track. I didn’t get in, and I was actually told by a professor, “You should switch your major.

Megan Gill: Like, away from performance?

Jennifer Ledesma: Yes, correct.

Megan Gill: Oh, my god.

Jennifer Ledesma: Well, and I know I’m not the only – which is just funny to think about because, you know, I was told that, and I know I’m not the only person he told that to. I know that there are other friends of mine who got similar comments when they auditioned for the BFA program. And it’s just funny to think about now because my other friend who I know this happened to, she’s now gone off to work for some of the biggest regional houses in America, and she’s in New York teaching at Broadway Dance Center, Steps on Broadway consistently. She has so many classes throughout the week that she teaches, and she’s a star. And it’s just crazy to think that, you know, she got similar comments to what I got. And now, after I graduated, I think I’m one of the only people from my class that is still working consistently even though I

Megan Gill: That’s amazing.

Jennifer Ledesma: – yeah, even though I didn’t make the BFA program. And I was really lucky that when I was a junior, senior, I had a lot of upperclassmen telling me it, “It really doesn’t matter when you go out into the real world. That’s just a letter.” I feel in the musical theater world, it’s such a big, “Ah, I graduated from this BFA program.” It’s such a prestigious thing. And I do really feel that has not limited me from, you know, booking work post-college.

Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. I feel that’s another one of those things that is so stigmatized when you’re in high school going into a program. Like, “Oh, you want the BFA.” But I agree, ultimately, at the end of the day, I really don’t think…

Jennifer Ledesma: Right! And I tried to follow the BFA courseload as much as I could even though I didn’t get into the program. The second thing is that the BFA program immediately got into showcase, and the BA kids had to audition for showcase. And even if we auditioned for showcase, we could only do a monologue or scene. We couldn’t do a song, which is foolish because you’re a musical theater major. You would want to sing for showcase. But, you know, going back to what I was talking about with, you know, post-college training, yeah, I stopped dancing consistently, and I really struggled to find a consistent workout plan that worked for me just because, you know, I was a dancer my whole life. So when I went to the gym, I didn’t know what to do. And I know for some people it’s really, you know, maybe easy to find a workout plan or get linked with a trainer or that kind of thing. And I think for me, there’s a certain type of stigma that curvy women feel in the gym or when working out and that kind of thing. And I would have to say that stopped me from really exploring any of that for a long time. And I would still go to dance calls, but If I had to choose between a dance call or a singer’s call, I would choose the singer’s call. And I knew that I could hold my own at a dance call but, you know, because I wasn’t training consistently, I wasn’t picking up routines as quickly as I could have. Or there were certain things of, like, “Oh, you’re not training, so your body’s gonna give out,” whether it’s stamina or technique, or that kind of thing.

So it wasn’t until a couple years ago I started dancing consistently again, and I really tried to approach it from not even dancing to train for my career but just dancing to find the joy of it again. And I started taking different classes outside of the dance world in terms of I started taking strength training classes. I started taking Pilates, and I really tried to view it as cross-training to support myself to have the stamina in shows to make it without, you know, my body giving out. Because there were a couple shows I’ve had to do physical therapy for just because my body wasn’t keeping up with the amount of dancing or running around that I had to do onstage. And I really wanted to approach taking classes again, not as a way to train, but just as a way to do it for myself, if that makes sense.

Megan Gill: Yeah, make it less about just doing it for your career and make it a more all encompassing act?

Jennifer Ledesma: Yes, and so, when I started going back to dance classes, I tried to go to dance studios that I knew theater people didn’t go to because I also didn’t want to feel like, “Oh, now I have to put on a show for people,” you know, because I think it is really easy to feel that when you’re taking class.

Megan Gill: Oh, for sure.

Jennifer Ledesma: And I feel now I’ve kind of – you know, it’s been a long journey. I’m still not where, you know, I would want to be, but I’m trying to have – now I, you know, go to dance classes, and I used to hate taping myself and then watching it back. The classes that I was going to, that was just the thing that people did when we were in combos at the end of the night, and so, I just started taping myself because sometimes then I would watch it back and be like, “Oh, actually that wasn’t that bad! I actually did a pretty good job. I actually maybe know what I’m doing!” And yeah, it was just a nice reminder of, yes, I did train as a dancer for 15 years, I do have this in my body. And I’ve had people tell me that, and I didn’t believe it or I didn’t see it because I think I was so just focused on the negatives, you know?

And so, it’s been really nice, in the past year, to just kind of find the joy in dancing again, do it for myself, take classes that are not also primarily rooted in musical theater style. So I take a hip-hop class here in Chicago that focuses on Chicago House Steps, and that’s very much not in the world of musical theater at all. But it’s just taking class just because I like the style and not because it could, you know, better me as a musical theater dancer. But I do feel like taking classes in different styles fundamentally just helps you explore different facets of yourself as a mover or as a dancer.

So yeah, in the past year, I’ve been focusing on that, and it’s been really lovely to kind of take the pressure off with going back into dance and finding the joy in that again and approaching it more so for myself and not for my career. And I just took a dance class last night. It was a new class to me. It was one that was recommended from a friend, so she took me. And it’s, you know, intimidating to step into new spaces, especially as a dancer, to take a new dance class when you can show up to the class and you see, “Oh, it’s a big group of people. They’re regulars. There’s a very consistent following. But it was such a joyful class. And at the end of class, the teacher came up to me, and she was you have so much joy when you dance. it’s so lovely to watch.

Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, what a compliment!

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, that was so, so nice to hear because, you know, taking a class, I found myself, “I’m in my head,” and I was just trying to remind myself, “You are here just to dance. There doesn’t need to be any pressure.” But felt myself – because we were also – it was a jazz class, and she was actually teaching a style that was more musical theater. So immediately I was like, “Ugh.” I felt my body stiff up like, “Okay, people know me as this musical theater girl. They’re gonna be expecting me to do this well.” But then I reminded myself, “Oh, it’s been so long since I’ve gone to do a more musical theater style because I’ve primarily been taking classes like jazz funk, or hip-hop, or ballet. So I had this moment where I was like, “No, this is in my wheelhouse. This is my style. I should just be able to enjoy this moment and not immediately critique myself because the only one judging me is myself.”

Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh, yes, one hundred percent. I just love this, especially growing up a dancer and starting from a very young age, because I also have an understanding of what that’s like. Because I started dancing when I was very young as well and continued all the way through college and thereafter, blah, blah, blah, the whole thing.

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah.

Megan Gill: I haven’t taken a class in a minute, so I can relate with you on all of the feelings about walking into a room of a bunch of dancers being like, “All right! We’ll see what happens!” But what a beautiful reflection on where you are now in your relationship to how you’re showing up in the dance spaces that you’re in, in this place where, you know, there’s typically a mirror, and our bodies are doing the movement and executing the art form. And just to hear how your relationship has evolved to how you’re showing up in these spaces is beautiful, and I really appreciate you sharing that. And also, I feel there are so many important aspects of where you’re finding yourself now with taking the pressure off and just allowing yourself to show up with joy for yourself.

Jennifer Ledesma: Yes. Yeah.

Megan Gill: Because you want to. And kind of trying to get outta your head and get out of your way in that sense is really, really hard work.

Jennifer Ledesma: No, but I love what you just also touched on. You know, yeah, when you go to a dance class, there is a mirror in front of you. And that’s something I’ve had to get out of my head about because, you know, most of the time may be the only curvy girl in the class, so how I look when I dance is gonna look different than how other girls look in the class. As a dancer, I still really struggle with floor work because, as a curvy girl, getting on the floor and getting off the floor is not a strong suit of mine, and I’ve just tried to have more confidence in myself or try to remind myself there’s nothing wrong when there is floor work that’s introduced. I just ask the teacher now, “Hey, do you have a modification for people who can’t do the floor work?” And most of the time those teachers are willing to give you something else, and it’s just not being afraid to ask the question.

Megan Gill: And advocate for yourself in that sense, too.

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And reminding myself when I watch videos at the end of the day, “Okay, focus on how I’m dancing. Don’t focus on, you know, all the little critiques you have about your body.” But it’s definitely easier said than done. Before we started recording, we were talking about, you know, other conversations that you’ve had with other people, and there was a comment that was made by someone, I can’t remember who it was, but I really resonated with it when you posted it because they had spoken about how they were trying – it’s the juxtaposition of wanting to, you know, still embrace where your body was at and the beauty of your body and being confident in being a curvy woman but also not feeling shame for wanting to shift your body or change your body. Because I think that’s the way I’ve tried to approach my relationship to dance or fitness in the past year. I’m very proud to be a curvy woman. Are there things I want to change? Maybe, and I don’t want to feel shame for that, but I also want to embrace the body that I’m in. So it’s like how do those two meet each other?

Megan Gill: Right, which I think is just such a complex and nuanced thought, concept.

Jennifer Ledesma: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Megan Gill: There are so many layers there, right? But also I think it’s important to destigmatize how polarized they each can get.

Jennifer Ledesma: One hundred percent.

Megan Gill: And how we think, “Oh, well, either I’ve fully embraced my body and I am on body image healing journey and I’m trying to view my body through this neutral lens, or I’m over here wanting to change her.”

Jennifer Ledesma: Right.

Megan Gill: And, okay, it’s so normal to exist in the in-between or on some spectrum of that scale, and it’s normal for where you’re at, where we’re each individually on that spectrum just to move around and shift as we grow in our lives too. It’s not always going to be the same. And I think it’s also only normal in our culture, in our society for us to want to change something about our bodies.

Jennifer Ledesma: Yes.

Megan Gill: We are conditioned and taught our whole entire lives. I feel like the question I see time and time again is, “What do you dislike about your body? If you could change one thing about your body, what would it be?” And I’m almost so tired of this – I know it’s coming from a place of trying to, you know, display that so many women are conditioned to dislike our bodies and certain things about ourselves. But I’m also like, “Okay, let’s quiet that question and maybe ask a different question,” you know?

Jennifer Ledesma: Right. Why can’t we ask women, “What’s your favorite part about your body?” You know, instead of asking what we’d want to change. But I definitely hear it.

Megan Gill: Yes!

Jennifer Ledesma: And especially in the musical theater world, you know, a few years ago I had never thought about plastic surgery, Botox, you know, that kind of thing. And I did a contract out of town where just girls in my cast, you know, they had done that, and they were just kind of telling me, “Oh, you know, yeah, when you start it in your late twenties, early thirties, that’s better to keep up maintenance.” And it had me thinking, “Okay, I don’t feel any shame for wanting to explore that,” because also your body is an instrument when you’re an actor, so you have to maintain your body, but then it’s this weird juxtaposition of, “Well, now that I know the things I’d want to maybe change if I did explore plastic surgery, it’s really hard to not see those “imperfections” when you are onstage. Because then, you know, I did a show this summer where there were so many photos taken. We were the only four onstage the whole show, and I found myself really critiquing myself because every photo that came out, I was like, “Ugh, I hate how my double chin looks. I really wish I had gotten something done before this show happened because now that’s all I can look at.” And it sucks because then there were other people, other girls in my cast where we’d take a photo or we were looking at the photos, and I was like, “Oh, I hate how I look in that photo.” And they were like, “You look great! What are you, what are you talking about? You look lovely.” And it’s hard not to sometimes see photos of yourself and only see those imperfections that you would want to shift.

Megan Gill: Oh my gosh. It’s so interesting that you’re bringing this up because, every other week that I share a conversation, I write a little blog post about something I’m dealing with pertaining to body image, something of the sorts. And the one that I published today was how I’m on a journey of trying to stop policing my body in photos, which is so difficult to do! It’s like you said. Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. And I know exactly what you mean when you say the things – now that I can see these little lines above my eyebrows, every time I look in the mirror or you know, not every time, but a lot of times when I look in the mirror or in a photos, it’s like I can’t not see those and wonder if I should change them.

Jennifer Ledesma: Right, or even, I don’t know if you struggle with this, but when I’m self-taping, I’m like, “Okay, I have to set up the camera a certain way so that it doesn’t get my double chin,” or “Ooh, gotta gotta put some more bronzer on because I’ve got to, you know, make sure there’s a line here,” and that kind of thing. And sometimes I’ll, you know, take a slate, and the only thing I’ll think about or see is, “Ugh, I hated that angle of my face. Got to redo it because I just don’t like the way I look there.”

Megan Gill: Yeah, and what’s sad about that is that we are then taking more of our precious time to redo and redo and to fix and fix and make it better and try to make it better when like – I don’t even know what I’m trying to say, but it sucks.

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, well, it makes me think about, too, I’ve heard certain actors or just people who see theater, they make comments of like, “Oh, I love watching that performer because she wasn’t afraid to look ugly onstage when she was, you know, being funny,” or that kind of thing. And I find that when I’m onstage, that’s the only thing I can think about is, “Okay, have to make sure I’m – you know, I’m looking this way or I’m looking that way because I don’t want the audience to see, you know, this profile of myself because I hate this profile of myself.” And it becomes less about the work and more about, “Hmm, I don’t want people to see me a certain way.”

Megan Gill: Oh my god, which then keeps us constrained from being able to show our full, authentic selves through the art.

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, I was on a show this summer and it was the first time I invited someone that I was dating to come see me in a show. And so, I was so nervous, but one of the biggest insecurities I have is, “My gosh, what if he sees me onstage and he’s not attracted to me.” And, you know, as a performer you should never think that. But I think also as a plus-size performer, that is also a struggle that I’ve encountered in shows is meeting costume designers who, you know, are not open to hearing what you’re not comfortable wearing onstage, or are not open to receiving feedback of, “Hey, I really love this mockup that you did. I’m not comfortable wearing, you know, tank tops. Can we put something with sleeves?” or that kind of thing. And that’s another facet of the industry I feel is hard, is kind of bracing yourself when you’re going to a fitting like, “Okay, I might have to try clothes on that don’t fit me,” and, you know, I feel like that can be a very vulnerable thing.

Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely.

Jennifer Ledesma: And so, I was really lucky on the show I just worked on, it’s probably one of the most seamless costume fittings I’ve ever had. And I wore this beautiful peach 1950s dress, off the shoulders, and I felt like a princess when I put it on. It was probably one of my favorite things I’ve ever worn onstage. And I told the costume designer, “Thank you for finding something for me that made me feel so beautiful, because this is not the way I feel sometimes when I come into fittings.” And it was just nice that, first try, she found something that fit me, and it didn’t have to be this back and forth of not finding outfits that don’t fit you properly or don’t compliment your body or that kind of thing.

Megan Gill: Which is typically your experience in fittings?

Jennifer Ledesma: Yes, I would say so. I would say lately I’ve been really fortunate to work with costume designers that are really open to having conversations, but there have been a couple shows – yeah, there have been shows that I’ve worked on where it’s not the greatest experience, or when you’re trying to vocalize, you know, “Hey, I feel most confident when I’m wearing something this. It’s hard when it’s pushed back upon, or when you’re working with costume designers who think, “Oh, I’m working with a bigger body, so I just have to put bigger clothes on them,” clothes that are not fitting properly or baggy or that kind of thing. And it’s like, “No, I’m still confident in my body! I still want to show it off. You don’t have to just drown me in fabric.

Megan Gill: Right. Right, right, right. Oh, I’m so glad that you’ve had some good recent experiences, and I just appreciate you sharing the ups and the downs too, because I was getting emotional as you were talking about, on first go, feeling beautiful in your wardrobe, because also the wardrobe for us performing artists is what you are using your instrument in. So if you don’t feel confident, and if you don’t feel like you’re supported in the fitting and in that conversation where this person is dressing you, and they have a say of what you’re wearing, yeah, it can have a huge impact.

I’m really glad to hear that you’re having more and more positive experiences in those fittings and with those costume designers, because I think that’s also a place where a lot of this change can start as well. It’s with educators in college, in high school. It’s with casting directors being able to move away from this lens of, “Oh, we have to cast the ingenue in this type of body and the best friend in this type of body,” and it’s in the costume designers in being able to show up in a supportive way and being open to listening and to supporting the artists and making them feel their best too, so that they can go and do their best work onstage where you’re literally on blast in front of a freaking audience.

Jennifer Ledesma: And I think that’s something that people often forget is that it’s very vulnerable to be onstage putting your work or your heart out there. And how can you be expected to show up and be your best self if you don’t feel confident in what you’re put in to wear, or if you’re so self-conscious about how you look? I can’t imagine how anyone would be able to put their best work forward.

Megan Gill: I agree.

Jennifer Ledesma: yeah.

Megan Gill: Yeah. I do have a last question to ask you before we wrap up, but before I ask you, I’m curious to know if there’s anything else you want to share or bring to the conversation?

Jennifer Ledesma: It’s interesting because I was just thinking about this, and I feel this can be a very nuanced conversation, but I think also, you know, as we’re talking about stereotypes in musical theater. I, as a bigger gal, it’s interesting because one of my dream roles is Tracy and Hairspray. And it’s been interesting because I’ve heard from some people who are also plus-size girls, “Mm, I don’t think you’re big enough to play Tracy.” And it’s just this interesting feeling to feel like, “Okay, well I’m a size, you know, 20, 22. I don’t know how – it’s weird to see the numbers on the scale and then be told, “Mm, no. I don’t think you’re big enough.” So it’s like, “Okay, so where do I fit then if even other plus-size girls are telling meI’m not enough of this or I’m not enough of that?” So it’s this weird in-between space.

Megan Gill: What does that even mean? It’s almost like what does big enough even mean to you?

Jennifer Ledesma: Right, right.

Megan Gill: Or what does small enough even mean to you? And also why are we viewing it through these lenses?

Jennifer Ledesma: Exactly.

Megan Gill: Is it just because we always have?

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah. I feel that’s a harder conversation to dive into. But it’s definitely just, I don’t know, something I thought about because I feel like, in musical theater, because it does play so much on stereotypes, it’s like, “Okay, you’re either all of this or all of that, and there’s no room for nuance in between.” So, yeah, I don’t know. It’s just an interesting thing to play with.

Megan Gill: Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that, because I think also the beauty is moving towards that nuance, of course, right? That’s the hope is that we can continue as a theater community at large to move towards that nuance. But thanks for bringing that up.

So my last question for you is funny because you said it earlier, and I was like, “Ha, ha, ha! Do I tell her now that I’m gonna ask her later?” But what I’m trying to do, specifically in these conversations, is ask my guests what their favorite thing or things about their own body is, and it can be physical, it can be non-physical, it could be one of each, and I know I’m springing it on ya!

Jennifer Ledesma: No, I love it, and I’m glad that this is how you end your conversations because it’s, you know, what we just touched on – why aren’t we asking women enough about what they love about themselves rather than what they would want to change?

I love my smile. I feel I’m a very – I feel my natural thing to do is smile. And I’ve always been told by people that, “Oh, you have a really lovely smile!” It reminds me of the comment I got from that teacher yesterday of, “Oh, you have so much joy when you dance.” I just feel like, to my core, I’m a very joyful person, so I love my smile. I have a little space in between my teeth, a little chip in my tooth, and sometimes I’ve gone into the dentist and they’re like, “Oh, do you want us to fix that chip in your tooth?” And I’m like, “No, I love it! Leave my chip alone!”

Megan Gill: I love that!

Jennifer Ledesma: I love my legs. It’s easy to find the imperfections or whatever, but I think whenever I doubt if I’m a dancer or not, I feel like my legs are very representative of that, if that makes sense. I feel I have dancer calves from taking ballet. And I love my thighs. Thick thighs save lives. I love my thighs, and I’ve always been – this might deem into the sexual you know world or, or whatever –

Megan Gill: That’s okay!

Jennifer Ledesma: – but I love my boobs. I know that that is one of my greatest attributes as a woman. I don’t feel shame in showing them off. And yeah, it makes me feel confident when I, you know, put on an outfit and, you know, want to show off the girls and that kind of thing.

Megan Gill: Heck yeah! And what an important callback to when you were growing up in dance and. The moms or the teachers or whoever the adults were that were making comments about how you were more well-endowed. And you’re like, “Yeah! I love them!”

Jennifer Ledesma: Right, yeah, it was a thing to feel shameful for, but no, I’m pretty happy with them.

Megan Gill: Heck yeah!

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, and I think something that I haven’t touched on in this interview, or I’ve made comments throughout the conversation, but, especially as a plus-size Latina woman, I feel that’s a really easy way also to feel othered. Because when those comments were made, it was like, “Oh, yeah, you’re Latina. You have the Latina curves,” because those were physical attributes that were common in my family. It’s like, “Oh yeah, you’ve got the Ledesma curves or the Ledesma boobs, whatever, or the Guzman thighs,” whatever. I think it’s easy to pair the shame – I don’t know. I think it can be a very nuanced conversation or perspective of, I think the shame that I felt in my body when I was younger or even now, it’s easy to tie that in with my identity as a woman of color. And I think that just adds a whole other layer to the whole conversation that we’re having about body image and perspective, because I think that’s why I was also really powerful with seeing a show like Real Women Have Curves take place on Broadway. There’s not a lot of spaces where we’re celebrating plus-size women of color, specifically Latina, plus-size women in the industry, and just a specific space for that, it’s such an indescribable feeling. But I would love to see more shows like that representative of those communities and inviting us in rather than – inviting what makes us special or what makes us unique, and inviting us to embrace all those “imperfections” rather than excluding us from an industry in spite of them, if that makes sense.

Megan Gill: Oh, absolute, yes, perfect sense. And I appreciate you going back to that piece of the conversation as well and for touching on that because I think that’s extremely important. So thank you for sharing.

Jennifer Ledesma: Thank you. And just, you know, also going back to, you know, the conversation that we were just having about not finding your place in an industry because you’re not skinny enough, you’re not fat enough, or that kind of thing. I think it’s going back to that, that word of enough. I think it’s very easy in this industry not to feel like enough of this, enough of that. I think even as a Latina woman, I don’t speak perfect Spanish. So sometimes I, you know, don’t feel enough of a Latina because my Spanish isn’t perfect and that kind of thing. And I think in the industry we work in, I think those things are just mag – extreme – I can’t find the specific word I want to find.

Megan Gill: Magnetized?

Jennifer Ledesma: There we go, yes, magnetized! Yes, thank you!

Megan Gill: Oh, gosh, what’s the word? I think it magnifies!

Jennifer Ledesma: No, it truly is both, I feel like! Yeah, it’s easy to just put a spotlight on all those things. And yeah, just that word of enough, I feel like it’s an ongoing loop. But I feel like I’m doing the most I can to push away that perception and embrace my body for what it is and kind of shut out the outside voices that will tell you you’re not enough, whether it’s other people or the perception that you have of yourself, that little voice in your head. But yeah, because I think we have to remind ourselves that the only one putting that feeling of not enough is ourselves at the end of the day. Yeah.

Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s such an important journey to go on, and I’m just so glad to hear that you are doing that work for yourself and working to take care of yourself in that way so that you can show up with all of the incredible things that you are and all of the incredible talents you have and do the work that you love to do and that you are dedicating your life to doing.

Jennifer Ledesma: Yes.

Megan Gill: It’s so, so important.

Jennifer Ledesma: Thank you! Honestly, I’ve loved all the conversations that we’ve had today. I was not sure where this conversation was gonna go, but it was also so nice to just ruminate on my past experience as a dancer, as I know that you can relate to that as well, and open up about all the complexities of how our bodies and identities can show up and the work that we do in the industry. Yeah, I feel like people sometimes don’t realize how much of ourselves either impacts the work that we do or impacts how we show up in spaces. So, yeah, this was really lovely.

Megan Gill: Absolutely. It really was. I am so lit up right now and so energized, and I appreciate you for being so vulnerable and sharing and talking with me today.

Jennifer Ledesma: Thank you! And I appreciate you just inviting me into this space and, you know, having this conversation with me. It feels great.

Megan Gill: Of course!

Jennifer Ledesma: Yeah, I feel like my cup is full.

Megan Gill: Well, thank you. I appreciate you for being here!

Jennifer Ledesma: Thank you!

“ I have a pretty wide range as a vocalist. And I have a very upper soprano register of my voice that my voice teacher is very supportive with. And he’s always like, “I want more people to hear this lovely part of your voice.” But as a plus-size woman, you don’t see a lot of plus-size women play the Lauries in “Oklahoma,” or the Golden Age girls, and even “Gentleman’s Guide,” the love interest. Going back to the whole comment I made about how it can have an influence on your psyche, it’s like, yeah, curvy girls never get to play the love interest, or it’s not seen as the norm, in musical theater. And it’s just disappointing because, in real life, we have love interests, we have blooming love lives.”

- Jennifer Ledesma

Jennifer Ledesma is a Mexican-American singer, actor, dancer, and musician currently based in Chicago. Favorite theatre credits include American Mariachi (TheatreSquared), The Marvelous Wonderettes (Oil Lamp Theatre), Shrek (Drury Lane Theatre), Spongebob the Musical and Grand Hotel (Kokandy Productions), West Side Story (Morris Performing Arts Center), Nunsense (Little Theatre on the Square), Same Same But Different (New York City Children’s Theatre), and The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Music Theatre Works). She was featured in Broadway In Your Backyard and New Faces Sing Broadway 1956 (Porchlight Music Theatre). Originally from California, Jennifer has a Bachelor of Arts in Musical Theatre from Columbia College Chicago and is represented by Big Mouth Talent. When she’s not performing, Jennifer loves dancing to new pop bops, reading romance novels with just a bit of spice, and watching too much reality television.

Stay updated with Jennifer:

www.instagram.com/jennifermarieledesma

www.jennifer-ledesma.com

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A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

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While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome Beth Hawkes to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! As both an actor and photographer of actors, Beth is a multi-talented creative human being. I met Beth online in a business program in 2020, and I’ve shot with her in-person three times now! Each time I’ve done a shoot with her, she’s beautifully captured my essence as a human being at that particular time in my life, which has been lovely to experience.

In our conversation, we discuss… Where the line of body image encouragement yet honoring each individual's insecurities lies; Beth’s incredible ability to capture her subjects’ true essence; the non-physical aspects of our acting careers that can lead us to deepening with character, and therefore bookings; wearing the clothes that we actually feel good in and love to our photoshoots and auditions so we can show up present and involved (instead of worrying about how we look/fussing with our hot shorts); and accepting our changing bodies as we move through different phases of our big, beautiful lives.

Beth’s lens on encouraging her clients to accept their bodies for how they are while also honoring each client’s individual thoughts and feelings around their bodies is incredibly nuanced and beautiful. She values her relationship between herself (as photographer) and her clients. It’s clear how important making them feel comfortable in front of her camera is. She ultimately wants her clients to show up as their best selves to their shoots, and we discuss how us actors can get out of our own ways when shooting with a photographer, so we can hopefully get some pretty authentic photos of ourselves. Spoiler alert: shooting with Beth will be the confidence boost you didn’t know you needed. I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!

“ At the end of the day, who you are authentically and the way that you show up and the energy you bring, all of that is what sets you apart from everybody else because there's no one like you at all. And so, it's one thing to be like, “Oh my gosh, [the industry is] so focused on the way that I look and all these things,” but it's another thing to also say, “Yeah, but nobody else looks like me, and that's like such a gift.” And so, at a certain level, it's not really about who's the most talented. It's about who's the guy [for the job]. It could be about looks maybe, but a lot of the times it's about energy and the way that you approach whatever you're auditioning for and all the life experience that's been behind you to bring you to this point today and the way that you approach it.”

- Beth Hawkes

Megan Gill: Hey Beth, I'm so excited to have you for this conversation today!

Beth Hawkes: I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me, Megan!

Megan Gill: Of course. Do you want to start with just chatting a little bit about yourself and introducing who you are and your work?

Beth Hawkes: Yeah. So my name is Beth Hawkes. I'm an LA based actor and photographer. And I have been doing photography professionally for the last five and a half/six years or so. I started in the pandemic because, like so many actors, the entertainment industry was completely at a standstill. And everybody kind of started to think what else do I have besides acting? And photography was the thing that I always loved and I always had done in college and high school, just shooting my friends and having, you know, little photo shoots for free doing their head shots. And then I decided, well, okay, what would it look like if I turned this into a business? And kind of it could be perfect being able to, you know, have control over my schedule and to be able to stay connected in the industry as well.

Yeah, and then that's where I met you, which was our program that we did with Ashli Pollard, Square One Accelerator, which was learning how to build your business and create systems to make it as efficient as possible. And I learned a lot, and that really is what launched my photography business. And it's ebbed and flowed over the years for sure. There have been times where I have kind of let it go by the wayside and then times where I've really gone for it. And now, it's really my full-time income, which is great. And yeah. And then here and there I'll, you know, I'll get the acting gig or two and reschedule stuff. And yeah, that's me.

Megan Gill: Okay, this is fun because not only are you an actor, someone who uses their physical body for their work, right, but you're also a photographer of a lot of actors and artists and creatives where you're capturing the physicality and the physical bodies of these other actors. So you're kind of really living in this world of dealing with not only maybe your own physical body, but then also others and kind of all of the things that come up when you're shooting people and all of the body stuff around that. So I'm really excited to talk to you about that because I feel you're getting multiple perspectives here.

I know we've briefly spoken and we all have a body image story, right. But with your own relationship to your own physical body, but then also getting to be behind the camera and seeing your clients. I'm curious if there's anything that you want to start with as far as your relationship to your own body or things that really come up in a lot of sessions for you that you see just off the top of your head that you want to talk about or bring to light?

Beth Hawkes: Yeah. I mean, it feels two separate things in a way. I can really empathize with my clients when they come to me, because I would say 90% of clients come to me and when they're shooting, they'll be like, “Okay, I'm insecure about this,” or “I prefer this side of my face,” or “Oh, okay, keep an eye on my hair. It tends to do this weird thing.” And I empathize with them, but I also am like I never would've noticed or cared about that. And I'll look through the photos and, to me, each side looks the same – of the face – or the pooch that they're worried about in their stomach or something. It's not at all what they think it is in their head. And it looks great and they look amazing. I am constantly like I wish my clients could see themselves the way that I see them, which is just slightly perfectly imperfect. There could be a photo where they look amazing and the focus is perfect and their hair is perfect, but they don't like the way that their leg looks, and so they won't post or choose that photo. And that's such a shame to me because I don't think people – I mean, we all know that no one cares about you as much as you do. No one's really thinking about you as much as you're thinking about yourself. And I'm faced with it constantly in photography.

Especially when I'm editing and choosing photos, I'll be culling, and if a client has mentioned, “I really don't like the way that my chin does this,” I will eliminate some of those photos just knowing that they don't like it. And even if it's a photo that I I'm like they're not gonna want to see this. I don't want them to open their session gallery and be like, “Ugh, I hate the way that my –,” you know, even if the photo looks fantastic, I don't want them to be disappointed by the way that they look. So I do take that into account when I'm editing.

Yeah, and I also will, I have a few go-to poses that kind of help hide certain insecurities and parts of the body if they want, or that will emphasize parts of the body that they want to emphasize, things that. And it's just interesting because, you know, it's really vulnerable to have your photo taken. And I get it too.

As far as my personal journey goes, you know, I've always felt generally happy with my body, and there were times where I've gained weight or lost weight. I haven't really let it affect me too much. I mean, you know, it's tough when your clothes start to fit differently, but I'm usually just like, “Ugh, but my clothes. I don’t want to have to get new ones.” But I definitely get it because if you’re like, “Oh, take a photo of me out and about,” and then I'm like, “Oh, my god, that angle is not flattering on me personally.” And then my friends will do exactly what I do as a photographer, which is say, “What? Really? I never would've noticed. You look great.”

So yeah, it's a constant battle with, you know, wanting to help people accept themselves for how they are, and also honoring their feelings about their own body because they're paying me to capture them, and so, I have a job to do at the end of the day.

Megan Gill: Yeah, it's not necessarily your weight to carry to show up in therapist mode. Like you said, that's not your job.

Beth Hawkes: Yeah.

Megan Gill: But it is really beautiful how nuanced your take on capturing your clients is, and I've experienced it myself in working with you. Just how encouraging and empowering you are behind the camera, I think, hopefully allows your clients to show up and maybe not necessarily accept those flaws about themselves or the parts of themselves that they're insecure about, but maybe start to not put so much weight on them. And granted, I feel it does take hearing that time and time again. “I don't even see that. I don't even see that.” And then once you understand the concept of the fact that we are so hyperfocused on the way that our own body looks that, “Oh, my photographer isn't seeing me through the same lens that I'm seeing me?” And, “Oh, my friends aren't seeing me through that same lens either?” I think it's really difficult to come to the place of acknowledging that and being able to understand that sometimes our view of our own bodies and of our own selves is potentially a bit dysmorphic or warped or, you know, our brains like to do silly things and play tricks on us. And I'm glad that you are showing up and riding that fine line, like you said, of being encouraging, but then also honoring each individual client's preference when it comes to their body.

Each individual is going to have their own relationship to their own body and their own personal preference in this industry where our bodies are our business cards and the unfortunate truth is that the way we look impacts our work. And that's another thing that I'm just personally exploring this nuance of, wow, we show up and a lot of it is about the way we look, but then also how do we take some of the pressure off of that and how do we kind of lift some of the weight off of that to to free ourselves up and not put so much pressure on ourselves to look a certain way or to look “perfect” or to look like, you know, the people maybe we're seeing in the media, the people we're seeing on that TV show we want to be on.

Beth Hawkes: Yeah. That is so interesting that you bring that up because, at the end of the day, that's my whole goal with my business. I don't do headshots. I can do them if you want them, but I do personality photos, more editorial style.

So my ideal client is somebody that has a headshot that's great that they use constantly and that gets them into amazing rooms, but they want to beef up their portfolio, or maybe they're looking for new reps and they want to be able to show their real personality, you know, who they are on their best day without being like, “Okay, this is my ingenue look and this is my procedural look and this is my –,” you know? Those headshots are really useful and we do need them as actors, but you know, you're not really thinking about you on your best day. You're thinking about who would I be on a procedural and who would I be on a medical show and whatever.

My clients come to me – and this generally is what happens – and they're like I just want to have photos that look like me. I love this top, I love the way it makes me look, or I love this dress. It’s crazy. I never get to wear it. I wanted some photos in it, something like that. Or I usually hang out in a white t-shirt and blue jeans, and that's what I want photos of and that's what I strive to capture is people on their best day looking their best.

Megan Gill: Expressing themselves in the way that is true and authentic to them, which ultimately, as artists, is what we all hope to be able to get booked for.

Beth Hawkes: Mm-hmm. Yes. Because at the end of the day, you can't change who you are. And it comes to, like you said, taking the pressure off of this problem that's just inherent and unavoidable in this business. That's kind of my way of doing it, which is it's bonus photos for you. And a lot of the times my clients use my photos as headshots. They'll crop it in a little closer because they're like, “I just look like me,” and that's the best thing. And the way that I like to try to bring that out of people is by complimenting them the whole photo shoot. And it's all genuine. It's not like I'm lying. One of my favorite things is to just compliment people in real life or tell them the things I about them, and that just gives people so much confidence, and on top of me being aware of their insecurities or, you know, I'm guiding the session and putting them in poses so they don't have to think too hard and they can just settle and be themselves and listen to direction and interpret it however they want. That’s, I’ve found, the way to make people look the best on camera is when they're feeling the best, which seems so obvious, but I think a lot of photographers could get carried away with, you know, obviously the lighting is the most important thing. So lighting, settings, all the tech stuff and getting everything perfect, that the relationship between the photographer and the subject kind of gets pushed down on the list. And really my first goal, besides taking the photos, taking good photos, right next to that is having a good relationship with my client and making them feel comfortable.

Megan Gill: Yeah. It's so, so, so, so, so important. And also hearing you say that you want your clients to be able to show up as their best selves and that that ultimately helps them look the best and when they're feeling confident and empowered. And then I'm also thinking when you are looking your best, you're also, in my opinion, expressing your most authentic self and expressing these beautiful parts of you that sometimes don't come out in a headshot session.

Beth Hawkes: How many times have you, has everybody, when they book a headshot session with a headshot photographer, they go out and buy clothes for that session. With most of my clients, I can tell they're well-worn clothes that they bring that they wear constantly.

Megan Gill: Which is just so beautiful to me. Because I think it is so important, specifically as actors, to reflect that and to use your clothes and what you feel most comfortable in in your shots. And oh, my gosh, I have, I worked with you multiple times now, and all of our sessions, I just walked away from feeling exactly how you just said you wanted your clients to feel. And it does feel really good and it feels fun to be able to look at these photos of myself that are so truly me and truly, fully capture my essence that it's interesting for me – oh, I think it's so hard as anybody, but also as actors and performing artists to not get the photos back and be like, “Oh my gosh, I love these because I love the way I look.”

Beth Hawkes: Totally. Totally.

Megan Gill: Don’t get me wrong. Our last session, I think we shot in April. I got those photos back and I was like, “Oh yes, this fit? Love. My hair? I love it. Oh yeah, my makeup looks really good. I look really good. I really like the way I look.” It's hard to not do that. But then what overrode me liking the way that I visually looked in the photos was how much me, who I truly am as a person, and my essence is shining through in these photos. And that to me is everything because you don't get that a lot, and I think that actors aren't given a lot of opportunities – granted, I have also done a decent amount of modeling and I think more so I don't know in that world, if you're doing your own shoots and shooting with people like you and showing up to not just do headshot shoots, you get more time to play around with this type of stuff. But it's so, so, so important because then also if your clients are looking at these photos of themselves that feel very them and true to them, well, that's also just a confidence boost as far as, you know, maybe feeling a little bit more confident in their skin or feeling confident about the way that they look in these photos. Granted, it would be awesome if we took, again, a lot of the pressure off how we look. But also it's hard to escape when you're in an industry that is based off of that.

Beth Hawkes: Exactly. It's near impossible, but also that's what gets you jobs too. At the end of the day is who you are authentically and, you know, the way that you show up and the energy you bring, all of that is what sets you apart from everybody else, because there's no one you at all. And so, it's one thing to be like, “Oh my gosh, it's so focused on the way that I look and all these things.” But it's another thing to also say, “Yeah, but nobody else looks like me, and that's such a gift.” And so, at a certain level, it's not really about who's the most talented. It's about who's, who's the guy, who's that person. And it could be about looks maybe, but a lot of the times it's about, you know, energy and the way that you approach whatever you're auditioning for and all the life experience that's been behind you to bring you to this point today and the way that you approach it.

I did an episode of Chicago Med, and my character was struggling with – she was worried that this tumor she had would be cancerous, and she didn't know, and she was too scared to find out. And I remember when I got the audition, right before then, my dad had found out that he could potentially have kidney cancer and we didn't know for sure, and it was insane timing. Thankfully, he's fine, but insane timing because I was very viscerally close to that sort of conflict because I was like, wow, this is how my dad was feeling, is feeling. And I just had so much empathy, and I felt so close to it. And I booked it, and then I kept thinking, I mean, it's not that I'm not good or whatever. That experience, I had such a deepening of understanding that it was just circumstantial. You can't help that. I'm sure everybody else that auditioned was fantastic as well, but it's just things like that are out of your control that lead you to book, you know? And it didn't say redhead, it didn't say curly hair. It said any ethnicity, this age, and that was it.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think that that's a beautiful example of how it isn't all about how you look, and I agree that it isn't all about our appearance, right? And I don't want it to be that. But I know that sometimes as performing artists, we can go there. So thank you for sharing that because that is so true. There are so many other elements of our work that make us who we are and allow us to relate with character and show up to this work.

Beth Hawkes: Yeah, isn't it funny though that we focus more on how we look than we do that part of it? That is so not the first thing at all. When you get book, you get a casting director workshop, you're gonna go, and the first thing you think besides your scene is what am I gonna wear?

Megan Gill: Yeah. Totally. Totally. How do we find this nice, juicy, healthy middle ground and maybe enjoying the appearance aspects of our work, but then also really not harping so much on that so that we have a bit more energy to put into the meat of the work?

I know for me, growing up in the music theater world and studying music theater in college, so much emphasis was placed on how I look. From what I was eating to how I was moving my body that day to what I was wearing to class to what I was wearing to rehearsal or whatever, that I didn't put a lot of energy into my actual work. And I had this recognition after school, once I had kind of started going down this body image journey of, “Whoa, everything, almost everything, nearly everything had tied back to my appearance versus actually taking the time to really dive into this musical, or dive into my deepening work as an actor. Which is just, it's just disheartening, and I do hope that we continue to become more well-rounded in that aspect, and to try to hopefully encourage others to place less pressure on the appearance side of this work we do. Because ultimately, at the end of the day, yes, it is important to see people that look like you in media and to see differing bodies and differing abilities in the media. It's so, so, so important. But at the end of the day, the stories we're telling aren't necessarily all about how these people look. Some stories might be, but you know?

Beth Hawkes: Yeah, totally. And also it's interesting with theater versus film and tv, you know, with theater, your whole body is on display the whole time, and with film and TV, you know, you might get a wide shot or this or that. And then camera angles, camera focal lengths, they all change the way that you look. They're like, “The camera adds 10 pounds.“ Well, it depends on what lens you're using and what angle you're at and all these things. But with theater, it's a whole different thing.

Yeah, I remember when I was in a show right before the pandemic here I had this little outfit that was so cute. I had sparkle-pink Go-Go boots, which were so cute. I had sparkle-pink little hot pants, little shorts, teeny tiny shorts and then a crop top and a cute vest over it. And I remember constantly fidgeting with my mic pack belt and my shorts to make sure that it hit the exact point and worried that, you know, something would slip and then something would bulge out when I was onstage and all these things, and it was so much noise because I was onstage in front of everyone. I mean, you know, there were people – there's 600 seats, and they're all staring at you and your body the whole time, full length. So that adds a completely other layer, theater versus, because I also was trained in theater and that was you know, it's a full body contact sport.

Megan Gill: That's such a good way to put it. Oh my gosh. And how interesting too, because yes, film and TV, you are still on display. In classes, you know, on camera, yes, you're still being seen in your tapes, this and that. But such an interesting experience to grow up in the theater world and to have experience in the theater world. Because it is full body you learn a lot of this conditioning from the industry and from our culture about your body. And because it is the full thing on display at all times, like you said.

Beth Hawkes: Yeah, and also with deciding what to wear and what flatters your body the best, all these things. I've been a reader for a lot of auditions and nobody – it really doesn't matter what you wear, I mean, to a certain extent, right? But people would come in for the same role and one person would be wearing a t-shirt and jeans, another person would be wearing a blazer, another person would be wearing, you know, dirty sneakers. I remember being like, “I can't believe how much, it doesn't matter what everyone's wearing,” because I futz over what I'm gonna wear all the time. And I’ll put together an outfit that I would never actually wear in real life because I feel it flatters this or it looks a certain way or it gives more this or that. And it's like, oh, no one actually cares. You have to be able to do the work, and they'll put you in whatever clothes that they'll put you in. And it's just, I just found that so interesting that the last thing I'm paying attention to is what these people are wearing coming in and auditioning.

Megan Gill: Right, which is a good point because that makes me think, well, if it doesn't ultimately matter, right, then why are we not wearing clothes that we just feel good in? Kind of like the way your clients show up to shoot with you. Wear something you like, wear something you feel good in that's gonna allow you to not be in the hot pants and the cute go-go boots and be fussing with stuff and feel stuffy or uncomfortable, unless it lends itself to character. Finding the wardrobe that is just going to support you so that you can fully show up to do the work and not have to be in that cycle in your head. Yeah, so important.

Beth Hawkes: Yeah. Big time. Yeah. Also too, a lot of the clients that I've worked with are moms or they had recently given birth or something, and they are constantly like, “Well, I want to wear this because my boobs are different now, and I want to do oversized so that dah dah, dah, dah, dah.” And that is one of the hardest things to kind of navigate because I'm like I can't relate because I don't have children, but the feeling of your body changing and it, in many ways, not being yours anymore and having to share it and having to make that sacrifice.

And then they'll be like, “Well, I'm going in for a bunch of these roles now because, you know, now I have a kid and things are different and I've grown a lot and all these things.” And I'm like that's amazing. I don't know, I think it's whatever body you're in, it doesn't really matter. It opens. You know, wherever you're at in your life, the opportunities are gonna come, and they're gonna be perfect for wherever you're at.

Megan Gill: Yeah, I agree with that. There seems to be so much resistance around change in general, which I get it, you know? But then when it comes to your changing body and then how that then affects your work or the roles that you're going out for, or the work that you're booking or not booking, it has a big impact, and I understand the weight of that, but also how can we kind of just lean into that?

Because I'm of the same mind as you. I think it's exciting. New opportunity! But then also I'm not there, and I am not a mother, and I do not have a body that has given birth. And so, therefore, it's like, okay, well, I can't really speak to that. But my hope is that if and when I come to that (for myself) and/or with other people who are experiencing that right now, that we can kind of just loosen the grip and have more of this radical acceptance when It comes to our bodies, which is fucking hard.

Beth Hawkes: It’s so hard. It’s so much easier said than done. It's insane, because I look at people who have given birth or they're like, “Oh, I'm insecure about this.” I never ever would've thought that, or I never noticed a difference, honestly. You're still the same beautiful person that you were before or whatever. And yeah, there is so much. But the truth is, you will never be the same because, you know, you're in a new chapter now, whether you're a mother or whether you have, you know – it's not exclusive to motherhood. It's whatever phase of life you're in, you're never gonna be the person in the past anymore.

Do you ever look back at photos of yourself and you're like, “Oh, my god, I was so insecure about myself, and I look great. Why was I so –?” or “I thought I looked so big in this photo, and I looked so regular and great. What the hell?” It's just crazy how your own mind can play tricks on you in that way. It's so powerful.

Megan Gill: It's so, so true, which is why I think having more awareness around how we talk to our bodies and how we view our bodies is so important, specifically as performing artists where maybe you're standing in front of a mirror or you're in dance class, or you're just self-taping all the time and you're just seeing yourself all the time. Ugh, yeah, it's really important to just be kind to yourself and to understand that there's so much more going on underneath the surface of what you see about your body. And yeah. I just hope that more of us artists can open their eyes up to there being a different way when it comes to relating to your body, you know, and that we don't have to beat ourselves up all the time. We don't have to feel such shame about these parts of our bodies that we feel insecure about, which is such hard work, and it does take a lot of time and effort and energy, which sucks.

Beth Hawkes: Yeah, totally. And what do you usually say? What are your tips for people to overcome that? Or do we have – I'm so curious because, as a photographer, I can compliment people all I want, but I'm like how can I go deeper?

Megan Gill: So I think a lot about how I work with myself right now, because a lot of the work that I've been doing is navigating my own feelings and my own journey in relation to my body. I think that there's this loop, this spiral that I can get stuck in a lot, right?

And I think a lot of us go there where you see something you don't know about your body, and then you just spiral from there. “Well, what about this?” And, “Oh, am I gaining weight? Am I doing this? Am I doing this? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And it's how do we stop that spiral and bring ourselves back to the present moment, back into our body, back to a more embodied part of ourselves. I've gotten to a place where I'm pretty good at being able to stop and pull myself out of that and being able to use my movement practice to be like, “Okay, we're gonna move our body hopefully once a day in this way or that way,” and just do things that bring us back instead of let us sit in our thinking mind.

So I'm trying to think, for you, I don't know if it would be something with movement when you know, you're in a studio with a client and they have the ability to kind of move around and, you know, kind of shake it off. How do we get ourselves out of our thinking brain and back into our body so that we can, you know, kind of quiet the noise?

Beth Hawkes: Yeah. Self-talk is so important. I think about that with acting, how I have gotten so much better at talking myself out of a spiral because, during the pandemic, especially when things were slow, I would talk myself into a spiral and be like, “Oh, my gosh, I haven't booked this in so long, and I haven't done this, and I have these many credits, and this person has this many, and I'm whatever.” And now I'm able to much better – because it is a practice, it's a muscle to be able to get better at being like, “No, everything's fine. You are okay. You have so many things going for you. You have this, this, and this, and let's focus on that because focusing on the bad is not gonna do anything positive for you at all.” But it took me five years to be able to get to this point of being able to talk myself out of a spiral.

Megan Gill: Yes, I can relate with you on that. It takes a long effing time, so it's not something that's just gonna happen magically overnight. But also something else that I think that could go along with this working on our self-talk and bringing ourselves back into our body through embodiment practices that work for you, but then also looking at the facts. The simple fact of if you are standing this one second and then the next second, in two different positions (hunched over or hands on your hips, chest proud), your body looks different in each position. So the simple fact of how you hold your body determines how it shows up in a photo, right?

Beth Hawkes: Yes.

Megan Gill: So I think these reminders are so, so, so helpful. And that is just a simple fact, just the way it is!

Beth Hawkes: Yeah.

Megan Gill: Just like how your body can change from one day to the next based on so many factors that are out of your control. So I think that the more we remind ourselves and /or our clients or our friend that's maybe down about how her jeans are fitting today. I just think it's really important to come back to these factual things when it comes to our bodies.

I had a girlfriend the other day who was in jeans and she was like, “Oh they're so tight, and I'm just so uncomfortable.” I have been there so many times myself.

Beth Hawkes: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Megan Gill: I was “Are you wearing a bodysuit?” She was like “Yes.” Bingo! That does it for me every time. So it's kind of like that's a fact. You know, if you're wearing another layer of material underneath your jeans, they're going to fit a little bit tighter, right? Instead of thinking, “My body's bad. Oh, no, now the way that Beth is gonna capture me is gonna be bad because I feel bad in these jeans.” It's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's pull ourselves outta the spiral and look at all these factors here, you know?

Beth Hawkes: Totally. Yeah, looking at the facts for sure. That helps so much. The fact is, my clothes still fit. That's the fact. And yeah, that's really, really helpful. And also the fact is too, it's not that serious. It's just not. And it's really a practice to zoom out a little bit more and remember, “Oh, my god, I'm healthy and I'm able to go to workout classes and not have a problem. I'm able to walk around and get myself places. And that is the beauty of having a body.”

Megan Gill: Oh my god. Absolutely. We have to show ourselves gratitude and remind ourselves how lucky we are to be able to live the lives we have because of our bodies, like you said, oh my gosh, it's so, so, so vital. Yeah.

Beth Hawkes: Yeah. Not everybody is able to get to that – I remember times where I was really low or fighting depression, and I was really not able to zoom out and do that. And so, yeah, that is a practice, but it's also realistic to know that it might not be – you have to be in the right place to be able to zoom it out and go there. And it's just like you can't make someone change until they want to change. You can't make someone stop smoking. They have to decide to stop smoking and they have to get to that point and be ready. And so, yeah, that's the lifelong journey of this thing is being sometimes you just have to wait until you're ready.

Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And for going back to your work in the studio with clients, you might have a client that walks in (right? I'm sure.) who doesn't want to hear it.

Beth Hawkes: Who don't believe me or anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan Gill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you do have to meet people where they're at. It's so important. But then also I think that just by nature of the way you approach your work and the way that you show up in the studio and with the people you work with, you're gonna have an impact on them too, which is just such a beautiful reminder that yes, sometimes, ourselves included and other people, get stuck in – we're under a dark cloud, and sometimes it's hard to frickin’ hard to see out of the dark cloud. But if somebody in your orbit does something that allows you to just part the sea just for one second, it could make a big impact. Yeah, which I just think is lovely.

Beth Hawkes: Totally. Thank you for those such kind words. I appreciate it. Because that's all I want. I remember before I really – I was thinking about starting my business, but I hadn't really gotten it off the ground yet, and I booked a photo shoot for exactly the kind of thing that I provide for my clients. I wanted to try and find a photographer that's gonna do what I wanted to, and because I also needed photos. And so, I booked this photographer, and she was completely silent behind the camera and just didn't give me any direction. And I remember I was so excited for this photoshoot. I came in with all these cute outfits, and as the session wore on, I was starting to really question myself because I wasn't getting any sort of direction or feedback. I remember just feeling so insecure and not feeling myself or grounded or any of that, and I was like I never ever want my clients to feel that way when they're shooting with me because, again, it's, it's not that serious. We're just taking pictures. You know, we're all in a frickin’ floating rock in the sky or in space. It's not that serious. We don't have to hang onto these things with an iron grip. When you start to loosen your grip and just breathe and show up authentically, that is where I see differences in how sessions come out. When there's somebody hanging on and really having a hard time relinquishing control and accepting the fact that they are gonna be captured the way that they are today. The difference between that and the people that show up and are like, “Whatever you want! I'm good. I really love this dress. I love this pose. I want to get kind of this stuff. But other than that, take it away,” you know, “I'm good,” those shoots are the ones where you can just feel they come out really special. It's almost like the light hits them differently. It's very interesting. It's crazy. The amount of editing I have to do is less. The way that they absorb the light is different. It's so interesting. Yeah, and also those people that are comfortable enough to take some risks and try a different pose, try something weird, that's where you get the really special photos.

Megan Gill: I love that. Thanks for sharing that, Beth. I have one last question for you before we wrap up. I'm wondering what your favorite thing or things about your body is? It can be physical, non-physical, a combination of both. Whatever strikes you.

Beth Hawkes: My favorite thing about my body. That's such a great question. I think my favorite thing about my body is kind of two-pronged, they kind of tie in. The first is my strength. I've been lifting the last year-and-a-half, two years. To be able to feel strong and lift heavy things and use it in my day-to-day life, and lifting heavy things on top of the fridge or pulling out heavy photography equipment or being able to get into different positions to get a shot, all those things, that's one of my favorite things about my body. And also the way that I move through space, the way that I wear clothes and move through space, I really like that about my body. I love clothes, I love fashion, I love style, and I find a lot of it is the way that you wear them, not necessarily the garments themselves, but how you wear them. And I wear my clothes and my clothes don't wear me.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Oof, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing.

Beth Hawkes: Thank you so much for having me, Megan. This was amazing.

Megan Gill: Of course! Thank you for coming to chat with me today.

Beth Hawkes: I just love all the work that you're doing and I think it's really important, and you should be so, so proud of yourself.

Megan Gill: Well, don't make me cry, Beth! Thank you. And same back to you. Truly. I'm so glad. That LA has you photographing them, and I can't wait for more and more artists to shoot with you and be able to have the experience of having more of their true essence captured on camera.

Beth Hawkes: Thank you!

“ When you start to loosen your grip and just breathe and show up authentically, like that is where I see differences in how sessions come out. When there's somebody hanging on and really having a hard time relinquishing control and accepting the fact that they are gonna be captured the way that they are today, the difference between that and the people that show up and are like, “Whatever you want! I'm good! I really love this dress, I love this pose. I wanna get kind of this stuff. But other than that, take it away. You know, like, I'm good,” those shoots are the ones where you can just feel they come out really special. It's almost like the light hits them differently. It's very interesting. It's crazy the amount of editing I have to do is less. The way that they absorb the light is different. It's so interesting. Yeah. And also those people that are comfortable enough to take some risks and try a different pose, try something weird, that's where you get the really special photos.”

- Beth Hawkes

Beth Hawkes is an LA based actor, photographer, and founder of Mariposa Pictures. As a photographer, Beth specializes in capturing authentic portraits of actors and creatives in ways that feel honest yet editorial and round out their materials to "make you look famous before you are". Beth set out to fill a hole in the market by making editorial-style photography accessible to working-class actors to help elevate their materials in a time where PR and marketing yourself is becoming more important than ever.

On the acting side, Beth is a graduate of the School of Drama at UNCSA and has been seen in Chicago Med, Marvel's Runaways, Liza on Demand with Liza Koshy, and on stage at The Old Globe and Geffen Playhouse in various productions. Beth knows firsthand what it means to be on both sides of the camera, which gives her a unique perspective on building a creative career, juggling running a business while also chasing her dreams, and staying inspired in an industry full of highs and lows.

Beth’s Website

Follow Beth on Instagram!

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A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

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While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome my friend and fellow Wichita State alumni Maddie Mason, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Maddie is a dance teacher and choreographer based in Oklahoma City, OK. We’d attended university at the same time and danced in many a class together, and I was thrilled to have a conversation with her!

The way Maddie speaks about showing up to the dance spaces she leads is of the utmost importance if we want to shift outdated narratives about dancers’ bodies. Not only is her lens as a dance teacher and choreographer so needed in today’s dance world, she’s also a mom. Hearing her talk about how she shows up around her kids and ensures to not talk down about other people’s bodies in front of them gives me hope for our future generations to come. Maddie is a gem of a person, and I cannot wait for you to hear our discussion around body image and dance!

“ Like you said, in “Cabaret,” the ensemble member was wearing the exact same costume, and they probably created a costume for her, the exact same design as everybody else. Instead of, I don't know how many times it was, “Here's the box. Here's the costumes. Find one that you fit in.” And there was a time in college where I was like, “I don't fit into any of these, so either I have to find a different costume, or I'm not in this piece, or I have to work to fit into a costume.” It’s stuff like that that is treating people with humility. And as an artist, I don't feel like we grew up learning that or feeling like we deserved that. And now that we're grownups, we can change that and make sure we're in spaces where that is not happening, where that's not the culture.”

- Maddie Mason

Megan Gill: Hi, Maddie! Thank you for being with me here today for this conversation. I'm so excited to talk.

Maddie Mason: Thank you for having me, Megan.

Megan Gill: Of course! Do you wanna start by just introducing yourself and sharing a little bit about the work that you do in the world today?

Maddie Mason: Yeah, so my name is Maddie Mason. I am 35 years old. I am originally from Wichita, Kansas. I graduated from college with a BFA in Dance Performance. From there, I worked at the college level, worked with kids in studios. I've done choreography workshops. We've done workshops! But in 2019, my husband and I moved to Vegas, and I taught dance out there at studios until COVID, and then everything changed. But now we live in Oklahoma City. We love it. We're getting settled, and yeah, I'm still teaching dance and kind of freelancing here and there.

Megan Gill: I love that. We love the freelancer life. And we went to school together during the same time. We were both in adjacent programs at our same college. That is where we met in our origin story. So we have a lot of the same community and come from a similar collegiate educational background too.

Maddie Mason: Yes. Yeah, I think we both – I think it was, I don't know, modern or jazz that we were in together, but we had a lot of mutual friends, and so it was I knew you, you knew me, and then we got to dance together.

Megan Gill: Yeah, and I was always that music theater kid that was taking random dance classes that I didn't need to take. Like I think I would just show up and not even be enrolled!

Maddie Mason: You were! You would take everything. You'd be like, okay, hip hop this semester. I'm pretty sure we took tap a couple times together. There were a lot of tap memories there.

Megan Gill: Probably.

Maddie Mason: Oh, yeah. Good times. It feels like a lifetime. It's just wild.

Megan Gill: Good times, it really does. It’s pretty wild.

Maddie Mason: We're all grown up now. All the lessons we’ve learned.

Megan Gill: It's crazy. Okay, so you grew up in the dance world. Have you just been dancing your whole entire life? I know you mentioned that your mom and your aunt were both dancers in the eighties, so I imagine that you just came out of the womb in dance classes.

Maddie Mason: Honestly, yeah. My mom taught with me. My parents opened up the studio in, I think it was ‘86 or ‘87, and my mom taught pregnant with me up until the day before I was born. So I've been there the whole time and it's so cute because I got to do that with my daughter too. So I got to teach with her and my belly up until the day before she was born. So it's kind of a generational thing. But yeah, my daycare, nursery was in the studio in the back room, and it's kind of just I really had no choice. It was just what we did, you know? My mom wasn't gonna pay a babysitter. She was gonna stick me in ballet class.

And so, I've never known a world without dance, which gives me, I think, an interesting perspective. Instead of people who find their passion for it, I think mine grew, for sure, and there have been so many ups and downs that it's just been an interesting ride from the very beginning.

Megan Gill: Yeah, this thing that you just came into and this way of life that you didn't know any differently. Did it take you time to – did you kind of resist it at points or were there times where you were like, “I don't love this”? Is that what you were talking about?

Maddie Mason: Oh yeah. I think in elementary school was the first time it was all my friends were joining Girl Scouts, and that seemed really fun. But my mom owned a dance studio, so it was like, “Well, after school we pick you up when we go to the studio.”

So I felt like I did miss out on normal kids activities. So I did, in elementary school, see a lot of friends doing different stuff that I did want to maybe get into. But dance was always the main focus, and I don't think it was until maybe eighth grade that it clicked for me and I was like, “Oh, I love this. I wanna do this.” And I've always wanted to be a teacher from the very beginning. I mean, every little girl dreams of being a dancer. And in middle school it was like, “Oh, I wanna be a Britney Spears backup dancer.” And then, you know, it was the first time I think I had gotten a scholarship for the next year, and I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I just idolized those teachers and was like I want to make people feel like how they made me feel.

So I think from the beginning and having my mom as a teacher, seeing that side of things just kind of I knew that was the path I wanted to take, but, no, as a kid, it's confusing, and you're like, “How am I gonna get here?”

Megan Gill: Totally. I love that. I'm curious, as someone, obviously when you're a dancer or a dance teacher, you spend a lot of time in front of the mirror, right? So obviously growing up in dance – I also grew up in the dance world, you just learn that looking at yourself in the mirror is a way of life also.

Maddie Mason: Yeah.

Megan Gill: That is how you self-correct. That's how you check your form. It’s such a tool, but I also feel like it this thing that can lead some people to a very dark place when it comes to their body image. I'm curious how growing up in front of the mirror in dance impacted your body image from a young age and how growing up in that space affected you as far as how you saw yourself and related to your body.

Maddie Mason: Yeah, so I always, as a child, never really gave it a thought. My sister has always been bigger than I am. And so, she got a lot of the brunt of when it came to, “Oh, here's what you should eat. Here's what you shouldn't eat.” My mom came from the eighties high-cut leotard Spandex days where it was like we have a cigarette and a Diet Coke for lunch, and that's it.

And so, we grew up – you know, my mom always with the fad diets, at a young age, hearing about all that and looking at how my mom treated that whole world and her own body. I saw it. I think my sister experienced a lot more of that trauma. A lot of it was aimed at her a little more because I had a higher metabolism than she did. We ate the same things, we had the same diet, the same routine. We were just different. And that was hard for my mom too. It was hard for her to have a kid who wasn't just naturally thin from the get go.

And so, my mom also had to work kind of at the body she has in a different way. So she was like, “I did this. When I gained weight as a kid, this is what I did to fix it, and you can fix it too. You just have to not eat this or this.”

So all of that was aimed at my sister, but I was definitely observing it and listening and taking it in. It didn't really hit me, I guess, until I graduated high school because I had danced my whole life growing up. I was always active, always dancing constantly. I didn't give a second thought to my nutrition, really. When I got to high school age, I mean, I could feed myself.

So I gained weight right after high school. I mean, lots of people do. And it was like that summer, right after high school, I'd had a little freedom. I didn't have to dance that summer. It was the first time I think I'd been given a break ever.

Megan Gill: Wow.

Maddie Mason: So I ate, I slept, I drank, and I gained a lot of weight. And for me it was, “Oh no.” I remember it being such a terrifying feeling because growing up, this is the worst thing that could happen to you. How dare you be comfortable and relax. And it was always, “You gotta be on top of it. You gotta be strict.”

So that’s my background there, but then again, I remember hanging out with these two boys that I went to school with and they were saying, I don't know. They had mentioned something about my weight, and I kind of brushed it off and it was whatever. So I go to ballet school right after high school. This is my summer break, and then I enrolled in a private college, and it was a strict ballet program. We only had 30 minutes to tap, 30 minutes of jazz a week. And I don't know what I was thinking because it was totally not for me, but it was a strict ballet program, so I immediately lost all the weight I had gained over the summer, not in a healthy way because my instructor was going by the bar and patting my belly. But I remember those same boys seeing me and going, “Oh, thank god you lost that weight because you were kind of getting big there for a second, but you lost it all, so…” And I was like, “Oh, okay.”

So I think that was the first time – you know, the ballet teacher, the strict old-school ballet teacher combined with getting comments from boys from my school, it was just like, “Oh, okay. So people have noticed that I've gained weight, they are talking about me, and my worth is definitely based on how I look and what weight I'm at.” And so, that kind of started a lot of things, a lot of different emotions, a lot of feelings. I felt like I was in control of myself for the first time. I was 18. I was in college, but I had no idea what I was doing. I couldn't handle my emotions. I didn't know what to eat. All I knew was to not eat. If you wanna lose weight, just don't eat. So confusing.

Megan Gill: Which is like the the worst thing you could possibly do for your body when you are moving as much as you were.

Maddie Mason: Oh, yeah. And not only at that point was I getting it from my mom, but my teachers. I mean, my mom was friends with the teachers, so it was just that old-school mentality of, I mean, you know, “Eat an apple a day, and you'll be fine,” or like grab a grape and an almond, and keep going,” which is insane, absolutely insane.

Megan Gill: Yeah. It's insane. I fully agree.

Maddie Mason: Which, I feel like the last ten years we've kind of gotten away from that. I've seen a shift for sure, but I said to a coworker recently because her daughter was in a ballet class, and the teacher had made a comment, and I had kind of known what teacher it was, and she's an older woman, an incredible teacher, very world renowned. But it's that old-school mentality that that older generation, I hope that we're phasing out of, no offense to them because we've learned everything from that generation, but also let's take all that and do better.

Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely agree with you on that. There is a different way, I know that there's the saying, “They're set in their ways. The older generations are never gonna change.” Like with my parents, I've accepted they're not gonna change unless they want to change. So it's this fine line of how do we start trying to shift that narrative for the older generations, with the older generations, because they are still teaching and they are still in educational spaces. And I know for us at Wichita State, there were a lot of older professors, and the age gap is so vast. So how do we bridge this gap and try to help them see that there is a different way and that the industry is changing and shifting, ooh, because it is so harmful.

Maddie Mason: It is, and it's shifting so fast too. I mean, I graduated in ‘16, and I remember we didn't come out of college with a reel, with any work that we could actually show. It all belonged to the college, which I understand copyrights and all of that. But we weren't prepared, I don't think, to come out and – it's kind of how I felt as an 18-year-old going out into the world. They prepare you for a world that really doesn't exist anymore.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh gosh, that is so true. And I can very much relate from like the music theater standpoint as well. So it's not only like shifting these outdated narratives about bodies and how to care for your body as a mover, as a dancer, as a performer, but also how are we showing up in this ever-changing industry as well. That’s such a good point.

Maddie Mason: It's mind-boggling sometimes. And COVID changed everything. We were all online all of a sudden, and that could do a number of things to you mentally. It could motivate you, or it could hinder you. It’s kind of that whole new world thing. And now it's changed even more, which is good and bad. It’s good because I follow dance accounts for girls who are all shapes and sizes, and it really exposes us to everybody really can dance. You don't have to be stick thin. No matter your ability or size or shape or anything, everybody can move, and everybody deserves that space, and it's nice that social media showcases that for sure. But it depends on your algorithm. Sometimes it's the opposite. We’ve gotta get the algorithm right. We’ve gotta get the motivation, the positive stuff, because it has turned into – there is that other side where it's like, “Oh gosh.” You can look at these Russian three-year-olds who are like en pointe or lifting their leg up to their head, and you can compare yourself all day long, but it's a slippery slope.

Megan Gill: Totally. But it is really cool to see how the world of social media has opened our eyes a little bit to these different ways of just real life being represented in the spaces like dance, the dance world, and on Broadway, in the acting world, just all of these different things. It's like what are we doing here? We're representing real life and through our performance.

And specifically with dance, in an industry where you are, more than anything, taught to be thin and taught that thin is good, it's so important to support the narrative-change that anybody can dance and anybody should dance, and there should be space for anybody with a body to be able to dance.

Maddie Mason: Anybody with a body! Yeah, I mean, you think about movies, if there's an old woman in a movie, it's usually played by an old woman. It's not always a young person dressed as an old person. You see movers in a commercial, if somebody's walking down the street and they start dancing, you're gonna spot a ballet dancer right away. But normal bodies can move, and normal bodies represent the majority.

Megan Gill: Right, and normal bodies can also do ballet.

Maddie Mason: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Megan Gill: Which is also just maybe the worst – not worst, but I think the hardest place where like shifting the lens exist or the hardest place to kind of change the way we –

Maddie Mason: Oh, my gosh, I find myself still catching myself. I mean, I just said “Ballet Body” and every body's a ballet body, but your mind goes to it out of just habit and from knowing what you know and growing up in it. But I hope that in the future, I say “Ballet Body” and everybody just thinks of everybody.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Wow, that's such a good point and interesting to hear you say about “Ballet Body” because obviously, as a dancer, I understand what you mean, and that's kind of where this phrase, a “Broadway Body” came from too. It's the same thing. It’s same same but different. It's like a “Ballet Body,” a “Broadway Body.” These industries that traditionally represent a certain type of body type being the one that's front and center and featured in the performances. And yeah, yeah, it's so great that we are making strides in our slow but sure ways of moving away from that

And hopefully – as someone who is leading these spaces for these younger generations that are in dance, I am curious to hear the ways in which you show up to those spaces, and if there are any things that you do differently or just the way that you lead your classes and lead your workshops and the way that you show up to support these young dancers, to be a voice, to shift that narrative and to teach them the opposite of kind of what you were taught.

Maddie Mason: Yeah, I think I became aware of it when I was in middle school/high school, and I knew I wanted to be a teacher, and one of the main motivations for me was, “Okay, I've had some really bad teachers, and I've had teachers who didn't make me feel welcome or didn't make everybody feel welcome or didn't make you feel good after their class or after the week. I think I so desperately wanted a teacher to motivate and to love me no matter what and to really say, “What do you want out of this? And let's work on it together.” So I was aware of that as a young person.

As I got older, towards the end of college when I really started teaching, at that point, I'd had the education. We'd taken anatomy. We'd taken dance kinesiology. So making sure that I approached everything from just an anatomical standpoint. So it's, “Your bones are here. Your muscles are here. This is how your body works. Let's talk about that and not about your metabolism or about how high your leg is right now, naturally. Let's work on it together. Let's find a path,” and work with what you have.

Growing up, a lot of the focus was just, “Where is this line? How high can your leg get?” But I don't think I was ever using the correct muscles or using the right intention. And so, getting into teaching, I just definitely wanted to make sure that we were talking about our bodies from a factual, scientific standpoint and not somebody's opinion on what it should look like. So if we're doing a move, this is what it should feel like in these muscles, not anything else. Just stick to the facts, and I don't ever comment on a student's body. I don't ever. Even people in general, I don't ever comment on a weight gain or a weight loss because you just don't know. You really just don't know. Just say, “You look amazing,” or just, I don't know.

My mom, bless her soul. I love her to death, but it's the first thing that is commented on, and it's just, oh, I don't want anybody to feel like their worth is that because I know how that feels, and it doesn't do anybody any good.

Megan Gill: Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. I have a similar story specifically when it comes to the way that boys talked about my body when I was in high school and the messaging that I received socially about my body, and it's like when you've been there and when you have experienced that firsthand, you really, really know how it feels. And even the comments – because I love my mom so much as well, and she doesn't mean any harm by it, but she's, I mean, the same way. As of course my weight fluctuated throughout my life, she make comments about it too, and it's really not good. It's really unhealthy to praise the weight loss. Not that we're deeming one more damaging than the other, but that is so, so, so damaging to the psyche of the person who has lost the weight, whether it's, what is it? What's the word? It's like they're receiving this conditioning that's like, “Yeah, I need to keep going. I need to keep doing this because this equals good.”

Maddie Mason: Oh, absolutely.

Megan Gill: “Losing weight equals good. Gaining weight equals bad.”

Maddie Mason: Mm-hmm. I'm also hyper-aware of it now that I have kids because it's just, not even saying it to them, if they hear me say anything about anybody ever, that's what they hear and that's what they think people's worth is. They hear me go, “Oh my gosh,” or talking behind people's backs or just making little comments about people's appearances. That's the stuff I grew up with. And so, you get conditioned after a certain point to think, “Okay, well that's what everybody's thinking. So I know I've gained weight, and if I heard a comment from one person, ugh, obviously it's not one person. Everybody's gotta be thinking it.” And then it can spiral from there. But just making sure that I don't pass that on to my children and or my students or anybody. Just hoping that I never make anybody feel like that ever. That's my goal. It's just dance for joy and dance because it feels good and not because you feel like you have to be something.

Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, that is a word. Drop the mic right now. Like really and truly! And especially as someone who is a mother, I just think it's so, so, so, so important that you are careful about not speaking about other people in front of them. And I do think that more and more people of our generation and of upcoming generations are of this mind and are a lot more conscious of this, in particular, of not speaking poorly about your own body in front of a younger person, whether that's your child or your student or your niece, nephew, whoever it may be. I even think, because I have a couple of young people in my life, of not being like, “Ah! You're so pretty!” Just not commenting on their appearance. Just really trying to not be like, “What a beautiful child!” It's like, okay, there are so many other things about us as human beings than just the way we look.

Maddie Mason: Yeah, absolutely.

Megan Gill: And how can I show up and do better when speaking to children or about other people in front of children? Yeah. So I just really love hearing that and I think it's so vital.

Maddie Mason: I have a funny thing, actually. This kind of goes along with my toxic family circle. My cousin, a while ago – I can't remember if it was my cousin or my aunt, but this was back in the nineties, and she was talking to somebody and talking about how she had gained a lot of weight and she doesn't feel great, she really wants to lose it. And the girl she was talking to goes, “Oh my gosh, no. What are you talking about? You're beautiful.” And she goes, “I said I was fat, not ugly.” I was like, oh my god. If that doesn't explain the whole just everything that is wrong with… I was like, oh my god. Right? Fat doesn't equal ugly, beautiful doesn't equal skinny. It's just, yeah, these correlations that people make, and it's just wild.

Megan Gill: It is wild.

Maddie Mason: I see us shifting away from it, which is amazing. But we still get it here and there. It's still there.

Megan Gill: Oh, absolutely. Because it's like we're in our thirties. This is 30 plus years of conditioning and a lot of the conditioning being that skinny equals beautiful, skinny equals good, and fat equals ugly, fat equals bad. Like that is truly like growing up in the nineties and the early two thousands. That was the message that we were receiving left and right and up and down and from our peers and from parental figures or teacher figures or whoever it may be. It was all around us. So of course it’s taking so much energy to undo that. But I'm also really proud of people like us and people from our generation for doing that work (because it is heavy-lifting work) to then be able to shift the way we think about different types of bodies for the kids that are being born in 2025. I'm so curious to just how much that this shifts in the next 20 to 30 years.

Maddie Mason: I know. It's exciting to think about. It's exciting to think about what these little babies are – oh, and I'm sure they'll grow up and be like, “Our parents' generation is whack! What is all this? They don't know anything! They're so uneducated!” They're gonna be saying the same thing we are about our parents, but hopefully not… Hopefully not!

Megan Gill: Yep. Yep, hopefully not to certain extents, you know? For sure.

Maddie Mason: I was saying the other day about reality shows. My sister was sending me clips of just some old stuff from the very beginning, like two thousands reality shows. And it's like no wonder we all kind of came out of that early two thousands in such a weird mindset going into adulthood. I mean, the cattiness and the eating disorders and just the everything. Everybody was so skinny, so skinny. And it's just wild to look back at those clips, and it was just so accepted and acceptable to say some of those things and act certain ways. It's just wild to look back on. It’s lovely to think about the future.

Megan Gill: Right. I think it was also interesting thinking about my mom. Like, it was so hush hush to be like in a bigger body and proud of it, you know?

Maddie Mason: Yeah, that was not a thing. You were always the joke or the character, the Fat Amy or the big, funny girl. It was always some shtick that came along with being in a bigger body.

Megan Gill: Right, of course. And so, no wonder that it was stigmatized in the way that it was, but it's like how fucking liberating and freeing now to finally – I was just talking with a friend of mine about how there's an ensemble member in Cabaret on Broadway right now who is a big girlie. And she's in the same costumes! And I went and looked her up immediately after and I was, “Oh, fuck, I need to see this immediately.” And it's like, “Yes, thank you! Jesus! Why now? Why now? Yes, absolutely. Like, heller!

Maddie Mason: Yeah, like why not always? Why hasn't this always been?

Megan Gill: Thank you, jeeze!

Maddie Mason: I remember, I think the last time feeling like that in college was just, ugh, just remembering the feeling of, “This costume is not flattering. I don't feel comfortable.” And I know that it was done without a thought as to – I do struggle between okay, what's perfect for the piece, what needs to happen, and what can we be sensitive toward? As a choreographer or a teacher, when I'm thinking about costumes or anything, I'm always thinking about what is everybody going to feel good in and feel comfortable moving in, because the worst thing is to be a performer and have rehearsed a piece or a number or a show, and then getting out on stage and feeling self-conscious about what you're wearing or how something is hugging you in a weird spot or how just mortifying it is almost, feeling like – it’s like the nightmare where you like walk out and you're naked onstage. Like that's the same feeling is, “Okay, I know they took into account the size extra-small people, but ah, I wish they would take into account how I feel and where I'm at and how this looks and just everything.”

Megan Gill: I agree. It's like that level of care and consideration for everyone that should be the baseline.

Maddie Mason: Or like you said in Cabaret, the ensemble member was wearing the exact same costume, and they probably created a costume for her, the exact same design as everybody else instead of – I don't know how many times – and I understand because of budgeting and certain things, but how many times it was, “Here's the box or here's the costumes. Find one that you fit in.” And there was a time in college where I was like, “I don't fit into any of these. So either I have to find a different costume, or I'm not in this piece, or I have to work to fit into a costume.” Like it's just stuff like that, that is treating people with humility. And as an artist, I don't feel like we grew up learning that or feeling like we deserved that. And now that we're grownups, we can change that and make sure we're in spaces that that is not happening, that that's not the culture.

Megan Gill: Right, and being able to understand that we can, not that we should have to, per se, but that we can advocate for ourselves and hopefully empower other people to advocate for themselves because, yeah, it's like we shouldn't have to carry that. If you're that dancer who's like, “None of these fit me,” that should not be happening in the first place.

Maddie Mason: Yeah.

Megan Gill: But what about that space hopefully supports that dancer to pipe up and say, “Hey, can we do something so that I feel comfortable and I feel just as good as everyone else dancing?” It’s so disheartening.

Maddie Mason: Yeah. Right now it's on the dancer. It really does take dancers having to advocate for themselves and going, “Hey…” and that can be so uncomfortable, so uncomfortable because, I mean, there have been situations where it's like, “Okay, next!” You grow up learning your everybody's replaceable. You get injured, they'll have somebody in the door doing your part in, like, five minutes. So I think it asks a lot of dancers to have to advocate for themselves. I wish they wouldn't because their job is to dance, is to know the choreography, perform it, execute it. That's a dancer's job. It's the leaders, the directors, the costumers, it's their job to figure out how do we make this dancer look good onstage doing what they're doing. It's not the dancer's job to go, “How do I make myself look good in this,” or “What can I do?” on top of the dancing. The dancing should just be the dancing. That's your job. Not, “How am I going to fit into this costume?” along with, “I'm tired, I've been working and dancing. My body hurts, and now I have to lose more weight? How do I even do that? I can't workout more. There's no more time in the day.” It's just a lot that goes into it mentally for a dancer.

Megan Gill: Oh, I absolutely agree.

Maddie Mason: And hopefully the leaders in the future will take that into consideration and make it their job to highlight the people that are hired, highlight these dancers and work with what they have, not with what they could be.

Megan Gill: Right, 100%. I fully agree. Okay, before we wrap up, I have a question for you. I am wondering what your favorite thing or things about your body are. And it can be physical, it can be non-physical. Totally up to you. But I'm excited to hear!

Maddie Mason: My favorite things about my body? Oh, gosh, it changes. It changes! As much as my body changes, it always changes. Right now in this moment, I'm grateful that my body gave me children, and I'm grateful that they're active and healthy and that it can do everything it needs to do to provide for them. So that's what I'm grateful for right now. I mean, it's been up and down, but right now I feel probably the most comfortable I have been in my body, and it’s just knowing that these kids don't care. My kids don't care if I'm big, small. I'm just mom to them. So knowing that really is my favorite thing right now.

Megan Gill: Ugh, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. It's really special and really important. Thank you for coming to talk with me, Maddie!

Maddie Mason: Thank you! This has been awesome. I feel like, gosh, I need – yeah, I love these conversations. The world needs more of it. I love what you're doing. I love just all of it. I'm so proud of you.

Megan Gill: Thank you.

“ I'm also hyper aware of it now that I have kids because it's not even saying it to them. If they hear me say anything about anybody ever, that's what they hear and that's what they think people's worth is. If they hear me go, “Oh, my gosh,” or talking behind people's backs or just making little comments about people's appearances, that's the stuff I grew up with. And so, you get conditioned after a certain point to think, “Okay, well that's what everybody's thinking. So I know I've gained weight, and if I heard a comment from one person, ugh, obviously it's not just one person. Everybody's got to be thinking it.” And then it can spiral from there. But just making sure that I don't pass that onto my children and/or my students or anybody. I’m just hoping that I never make anybody feel like that ever. That's my goal. It's just dance for joy and dance because it feels good and not because you feel like you have to be something.”

- Maddie Mason

Maddie Mason is a distinguished dance educator and choreographer with a lifelong dedication to the performing arts. Born and raised in Wichita, KS, she began her dance training at the age of two under the guidance of her mother. She earned an Associate’s Degree in Liberal Arts from Butler Community College, where she was awarded a full scholarship for sound design within the Vocal Music Department. She then furthered her dance education at Wichita State University where she had the opportunity to tour internationally, performing in Mexico in 2016. With a passion for mentorship and arts education, she served as an Adjunct Professor of Dance at Butler Community College, where she taught Ballet, Modern, Jazz, and Hip Hop Dance. Additionally, she collaborated with Vocal Music Director Valerie Mack to choreograph for the nationally recognized Headliners Show Choir. In 2019, she relocated to Las Vegas, NV, where she was appointed Director of the Arbor View High School Dance Program. Overseeing a program of more than 150 students, she expanded the curriculum by introducing Tap Dance and successfully secured funding for new tap shoes through a DonorsChoose campaign, enhancing access to quality dance education. In August 2024, she and her family relocated to Oklahoma City to be closer to loved ones and to pursue new professional opportunities within a vibrant and inspiring arts community. She remains dedicated to fostering the next generation of dancers, advocating for inclusivity in dance education, and enriching the artistic landscape through performance and pedagogy. Learn more about Maddie and her work at www.maddiemasondance.com or @maddiemasondance.

If you’re in the OKC area, take class with Maddie!

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A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in:

* It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments.

* These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic.

* Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world.

Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome my Jennie Hughes, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Jennie is a multi-hyphenate theatre-maker based in New York City. She’s also the co-founder of Forager Theater Company, making art with those in her orbit to tell the stories she believes in. Jennie and I met in our college program, and her personal adversities as a stage actor helped shaped the story for my short film, A Broadway Body. Jennie’s body image resilience is admirable, and I’m obsessed with how Jennie’s experiences, as both an actor and a director/choreographer, lead her to cast a variety of different human beings in her productions.

In our conversation, we debunk “clean girl aesthetic,” how it feels to come out of a college musical theatre program and reorient to our health, “The Chicago Effect,” and finding the balance when it comes to food, movement, and overall health. I cannot wait for you to listen into Jennie’s thoughts around bodies onstage and her own body image journey too!

“I'm now trying to find the middle between working out and obsessing, and never working out and not thinking twice about any portion of my health.  Like you said, it's all balance. And doing something for me instead of for other people is kind of where I'm at in my body journey.“

- Jennie Hughes

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Megan Gill: Jennie, do you want to introduce yourself and a little bit about your work and the work you're doing in the world now?

Jennie Hughes: Absolutely. So I'm Jennie. I am a New York City-based theater maker. I am multi-hyphenate to the extreme. I am the co-founder and artistic director of Forager Theater Company, which I'm really happy that we just got our 501-C3 Nonprofit status, so I'm really excited to be in that world. It's gonna be a challenge but a new challenge and one where hopefully people can give us tax-free donations and their lives a little bit easier.

Yeah, so our mission as a company is actually my mission as a person, which is to make theater and art with what is around you and who you have in your orbit, the pieces that physically come to you. I'm a huge street picker. I love to take furniture and stuff from the street, and I kind of take that mindset with me in every aspect of the theater world. If I meet someone with an interesting idea, I'm like, “Oh, how can I make that a play or a concert, or things that.” And I also am really interested in the idea of sustainability, both environmentally but also humans, you know? I feel a lot of times in our industry, actors and directors and designers are kind of seen as commodities or things – obviously we're all humans, we're all people, but oftentimes we're expected to sort of be a machine and power through. And I'm really interested in creating space where you're a human first and an artist second. So that's a kind of my zhuzh as a person.

I moved to New York City almost nine years ago, and we'll get into it more, but I started as an actor you know, got my little BFA and then moved to New York City straight out the gate from graduating. I always directed in school and assisted everybody, and we can get into that a little bit more later, but I grew really sort of excited by the potential of making something from the ground up. So I do a lot of original work and a lot of plays and musicals and things like that. So that's me!

I of course have a side gigs barista teaching nannying, and I try to find work that excites me and I can still feel creative while doing so. So that's my biz!

Megan Gill: That's lovely. That's so important. And I also really appreciate how you have followed your heart, moving from being an actor to becoming a director and now having a theater company where you get to tell the stories you want to tell and you get to cast the bodies you want to see on stage. And I think it's so, so vital that more of us are doing that and making space for those types of productions.

Would you want to share a little bit about the ways in which you make sure that you're prioritizing centering different humans and different humans’ stories?

Jennie Hughes: Yeah, absolutely. I grew up obviously in the theater scene, and we went to the same college which I don't think our school is unique in its sort of fatphobia. I think that that is just a very common thread when it comes to many schools and BFA programs. But I was lucky enough during that time to be parallel learning with my mentor at the time. She ran a theater company, and she was really always pushing me to choreograph and assistant direct and help in any way I could. And she gave me the advice, you know, when I wasn't getting cast in school like, “Oh, well why don't you be the assistant director? Why don't you be the assistant choreographer and try to be the voice that you wish you had in the space, in the rooms?”

So I learned a lot by observing these directors and people, but again, the parallel person in my life, that's the reason I stuck with it. I think if I had just had the BFA program, I probably would've been so disheartened, you know? But I had this woman who was casting tall girls as ingenues. She was casting fat girls. She was casting any type of body in an unconventional casting way. I've always just known that that was the way to go, but I didn't have that example in school. I had it with my mentor.

And I think that I kind of went off on a tangent, but with my work, one of the big reasons I wanted to direct and produce was, yes, to tell my own stories and to tell the stories that I feel passionately about. And you learn very quickly when you move to a new city, or at least New York City, that if you want something done you can't just wait for it to happen. You do have to just make it. And not all of us have that privilege. Not everybody has the privilege to work a full-time job and then have the energy and the stamina to do your other work outside of that. I do think that's a very privileged thing that I get to do. Some people, you know, have to wait and things that. So I want to recognize that too.

But my purpose is I look at Broadway and I look at commercial theater and they're – not to shit on Broadway. They’re trying, but it’s still with the goal of just ticking a box and selling tickets. And I'm more interested in, well, why can't a fat person play a romantic lead? And same with queerness and transness too. I'm developing a show right now where we want it to be a collective of people, and we're pushing really hard to make the trans actors not only play trans characters, you know? Why do we put people in these tight boxes? I was always put in like, “Oh, well you're curvy, so how about you be the mom? How about you be the best friend?” Which, sure, I love playing those characters, but I was lucky to go to a program after college where I was putting myself in these boxes. We're getting a little bit into my actor side now, but I was putting myself in these boxes.

I went to the Open Jar Institute by the way. It was super eye-opening and really cool. And any young folks out there should try to go and check it out because the guy who runs it, his whole concept is that if you teach yourself that you can only jump so high, you'll never jump higher, you know? And I was sort of putting myself in this box. I was like, “Oh, well, you know, I know I'm kind of bigger, so I'm feeling really pressured to lose weight, but I just hate working out. No matter what I do, I can never be thin enough.” And in school they were like, “Well, so just try harder.” They're like, “Here's this diet book. Here's this exercise plan,” right? And when I got to New York City, my mentor goes, “Well, do you want to work out? Do you want to be thin?” And I was like, “Well, no, but I feel I have to.” And he goes, “You can dance circles around all these other girls. That makes you surprising. That makes you interesting. If you don't want to be thin, you don't need to be. Just do what you want to do and trust that whoever sees that is going to know what to do with it,” basically.

And that was great. And once I clocked that and once I understood, “Oh wait, it's actually a waste of my time and energy to force myself into this box, I started getting more and more callbacks.” Almost every dance call I went to, I got kept because I just went in with the knowledge that I know what I'm doing, you know? And sometimes it will be rewarded, you know, or not even rewarded, but that it's worth trying and it's not worth waiting until you're the right body to do something.

Megan Gill: Right. Do you feel that completely shifted your confidence and your alignment with showing up authentically as a human and a performer?

Jennie Hughes: Absolutely. It totally did. And I think it's still so ingrained. The fatphobia and the body checking is really, really ingrained in us depending on, you know, your upbringing and whatever. But at least if you went to a BFA program, you're aware of what your body looks like. But I honestly – and again, this might just be because this is my path in life – but I started to sort of collect other people like me in my circles. I started to find the people who were not aligning with five-foot-eight, a hundred and, you know, whatever pounds. And I started making stuff with them. I would start doing cabarets and play readings in my living room and things like that. I'm trying to find the right words. I feel everybody knows that what they're seeing on commercial Broadway is everyone's perception of the ideal. But if you look around you, everybody does not look like that. So I'm kind of like I want to create theater with people who agree that that's not reality. And I also want to make theater for people who want to see themselves represented in media.

And when I saw Head Over Heels with Bonnie Milligan, I saw it with my sister who could be Bonnie Milligan's daughter, you know not daughter literally, but they look very similar. They had a similar voice. I saw it with her, and if I had had that musical – because I was already living in the city at that point. But the whole concept is that Bonnie Milligan's character is this gorgeous princess and everyone wants to marry her because she's beautiful, and it's never a joke, it's never, “Oh ha-ha,” because oftentimes in musicals where there's a plus-size character, they have comments about her. That was never the case. The only comment that was ever made about Princess Pamela was that she was gorgeous and beautiful and everyone wanted to marry her. Crazy! And she was gay! And she was gay too, you know what I mean? She fell in love with the maid.

Megan Gill: This shouldn't even be crazy but it is.

Jennie Hughes: Angie, my sister, and I saw it and we were like, “What? A leading woman who is plus size and also a lesbian? That’s unheard of.”

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Jennie Hughes: Absolutely unheard of. But that's real life, you know? Anyway, that show really rocked my perception of reality. I'm so happy I got to see it.

There was also in that show Peppermint played a non-binary character. There was a character who was sort of this goddess who was neither man nor a woman, you know? And I was just like that's the Broadway I want to see in the world.

Megan Gill: I don't know if you've seen Too Much on Netflix with Megan Salter, but it's kind of a similar concept. She is not gay. She’s straight, but the fact that she's the leading woman in this Netflix TV show and not once is her weight mentioned and not once is it about what she looks or how much she weighs or her body. And it's like why is this, A, a recent development and why do we feel shocked to finally see this type of media? And yeah, it's few and far between, which hopefully we are continuing to just make more and more and more of it. But that's why it's so important that someone you is out there with your own company, mind you, actively making theater that represents real life.

Jennie Hughes: Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Gill: Because you’re right. We go to Netflix, we go to Broadway, and we do not see real life a lot of times. And it fucks with our heads.

Jennie Hughes: Also just commenting on Megan Stelter, by the way, genius. A genius. She's so funny. She’s a very normal-looking person, you know what I mean? She's not stick thin, but she's just a person, a human person having an experience, so I love that. I need to watch that show. Haven't started it, but I love that it's out there.

But yeah, I was going to say, when it comes to casting or creating work for the historically underrepresented groups, I know specifically we're talking about body shape, body size, body ability too, that's something that I can always do better at, is pushing for the casting of people who aren't, you know, able-bodied, have certain mobility devices and things like that. That's something that I have not done yet that I think it's just a part of opening up your network and opening your community and figuring out the best way to make theater like that. But I have a lot of friends who specialize in that and have communities that they support through that type of work.

But something that I think about a lot when I'm casting, and I don't know if it's a supply problem or a demand problem, do you know what I mean? When I'm casting – I just cast – I did a big open-call type thing on Actors Access and Playbill for a show. And when I post specifically leading roles, I try to specify, “Any body type, all bodies should apply for this,” because it's always my dream to get a plus-size or fat person on stage as a romantic lead. That's always my dream. I'm sure you won't be shocked to know that most of the people who submit are thin, able-bodied people, you know? And so, again, I don't know if it's just that people see – we have to retrain our own perceptions as well, the people creating the shows. I think that there are more and more people casting and directing that want other bodies on stage. I do think that that's true, but I think the other issue comes with the actors and the creatives not – they're putting themselves in their own boxes because they're like, “Oh I could never –,” you know, “That's not my type. I'm not pretty, and I'm not, you know, the leading lady type. I'm the best friend.”

Megan Gill: It reminds me of what you were speaking to with yourself as well, which also just I want to point out and note that a lot of that does stem from the educational spaces that we spend a lot of time in –

Jennie Hughes: One hundred percent.

Megan Gill: – and how important it is that we as the educators in these creative, educational spaces are moving further and further away from those outdated narratives and conditioning young people to believe these things about themselves. I just want to slide that in there because I feel like that’s a part of the conversation.

Jennie Hughes: Absolutely, absolutely. It's one hundred percent trained. You don't know you're fat until someone says, “Oh, well I can't really see you in that costume. I don't think I could cast you as that role,” do you know what I mean? And I'm like, “But I would eat down. What are you talking about?” I try really hard to push for that. and I think you're right. By making our own stuff, we are training – that's, that's sort of my purpose with my theater company. I don't want anybody to tell themselves that they're not, you know, good enough or thin enough or pretty enough or whatever. Obviously, there are certain things. If your nature is shy and timid, it's gonna be hard for you to play a leading role or to play a bold and brash villain. That's different than saying, “Oh, but like, you know, I'm a size 14. I don't think I could play the leading role in this certain play,” or whatever.

Megan Gill: Right, right, right.

Jennie Hughes: And it's so fascinating because I did a production of Tick, Tick… Boom! and my John was under 5’5”. He’s a very small, little guy. My entire cast actually was all under 5’5”. They were all very short people, so it kind of worked out. And it wasn't intentional. I didn't do that on purpose. But so my John was this very thin person. And normally Susan is typically cast as sort of the nineties aesthetic, thin girl. And I cast this, first of all, stunning actress, beautiful voice. No one can do it better than her. I cast her as Susan, and she is a curvy, gorgeous person. We did it in the city, and then it got picked up and we took it to another theater. And the artistic director of the theater was like, “I'm just so impressed. I would never have thought to cast the show this,” do you know what I mean? She was like, “That actress can really dance. She can really move. I believe she's a dancer.” And I'm like, “Yeah, right?”

Megan Gill: Why are we tying people's talent and skill and ability to execute said talent and skill to the way their body looks?

Jennie Hughes: It's based on these assumptions. It's based on these really, really outdated fatphobic assumptions.

Megan Gill: And the conditioning from Broadway, from the educational spaces, and from our social experiences growing up.

Jennie Hughes: I hope that by, you know that by – not to be to my own horn, but by casting alternative bodies in roles that are traditionally made for dancers or leading men, the people in this town and this company that saw this musical, I hope that I had altered their perception of what's possible. That's all we can do as these indie – I'm not on Broadway. I'm not casting shows on Broadway, but I'm hoping that by doing my small part in changing the way that we do things as a theater industry, not just around body type, around care of our people, around casting Black and Indigenous people of color, casting Latino actors and Asian actors in roles that you don't particularly think they would be cast in, someone has to show everyone how to do it. And I think it's up to indie theater and it's up to indie film as well because I know that's what you're in. We are where the movement starts usually, I think. So I'm hoping to make my small impact in that way.

That's how it starts, you know? If you align with the tradition and you align with the norms, it won't change. It takes people being like, “No, fuck that. I'm not doing that. I'm doing this and it's better.”

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Jennie Hughes: And believing in that too. And sometimes you're wrong. It's not always gonna be the best, most beautiful art that you've ever made. But it's the act of trying, I think is a form of resistance to that.

I was gonna say on Broadway right now, it's about to close, but Cabaret, I don't know if you've seen Cabaret on Broadway. Another show that blew my mind a little bit, healed little Jennie. One of the ensemble members, MiMii Scardulla, is this fierce dancer. I couldn't take my eyes off her the whole show. She was incredible just in the ensemble. But she is a plus-sized girlie. She's a big girl up there, and she's wearing the same costumes as everyone else. She's showing the same amount of skin. They don't have her strapped into a corset. She is doing the show like every other ensemble member and telling the story in a really fabulous, beautiful way. And again, she wasn't – I've heard this time and time again from casting directors. “Well, it'll be distracting if you're, you know, in the costumes. People will be a little bit confused.”

Megan Gill: What the hell.

Jennie Hughes: I've heard that. You know the story from school, from our school. You know, I was told I couldn't be cast as the ensemble of Chicago because I was too big. They couldn't envision me in the costumes. I'm just so happy that they're doing that on Broadway, at least in a small part, you know?

Megan Gill: Yes. Right. Because you're right, it is baby steps, and it is these little things that influence and that shift perspective and allow people to see differently and help decondition some of that bullshit.

Jennie Hughes: I'm obsessed with her right now. She also just did a huge Broadway Bares thing, MiMi Scardulla. She was the leading part of this Broadway Bares number as a fat actress. Broadway Bares, if you don't know, is kind of a strip show to raise money for the Actors’ Equity Fights Aids coalition thing. And yeah, it's just great to see at least the community under the top tier of Broadway supporting that and then, you know encouraging it and hopefully, like you said, baby steps, chipping away at the wall of the traditional way of doing things. So, I'm really excited that that's on Broadway.

21:09

They always tell you to go see shows and then pick the person in the show that you could follow, career-wise. That's a big advice thing for people to do. And for so long I was like, “Well, I can't really be anybody on Broadway because no one looks me.” But now there are more and more people. And again, it's not like it's not changing at all. You know, I do have to remind myself like, okay, it is changing. You know, even in the culprit of the Broadway thinness of it all, Chicago, on Broadway. Do you know about “The Chicago Effect”? Have I told you about this?

Megan Gill: You have not

Jennie Hughes: Okay. So it's kind of sad, but I'll give some context about the Chicago Revival on Broadway, just in case people don't know. It was in the nineties. It was written in the sixties, and it was done, and it was really great and so fun. It was Fosse, hands down, which a lot of people assume Fosse dancers have to be thin, which is another thing. But that assumption came mostly from the nineties revival (which is still on Broadway right now) where everybody that was cast in that show was incredibly thin, like stick thin because they were in these skin-tight, scantily-clad black outfits.

And after that show – typing out is something that people do in open calls where they just look at a bunch of headshots and they say, “Okay, yes, I want to see them.” “No, I don't want to see them.” They would start typing actors by whether or not they were showing their collarbone in their headshots. So if you could see someone's collarbone, they would get typed in. Well, so it's like, okay, so me, I serve good collarbone, but, you know,, I don't think about that when I'm doing headshots. But people started to do headshots in, you know, shirts that you could see their collarbone, because if you can see someone's collarbone, that means they're probably thin or fit.

Megan Gill: What? Oh, my god. Wild. This is wild.

Jennie Hughes: So that's called “The Chicago Effect.” Isn't that crazy? So that's what happened in the early nineties, but also heroin chic was a huge thing in the nineties and two thousands and we're starting to – well, we were starting and now we're kind of dipping back down. We gotta stop that. But yeah, it's the collarbone effect. And so, they would type out people – not just girls, I'm sure guys too. They would type out people who didn't have a collarbone when they were casting ensemble and dance shows. So it's very deep seated. It's a very deeply-held problem and belief in a lot of casting directors, but yeah, the collarbone effect, “The Chicago Effect” is a real thing.

Of course, Chicago was the, the show, the famous show for me in college that I was told I could not be in, even though I danced circles around everybody who auditioned. And so, I started looking up – I was like, why the fuck? Because when I, when something happens to me that I don't like, I get researchy about it. I'm like, “Let me get my computer out, and I'm gonna solve this problem.” Yes, “What's going on here? What's going on? I need to solve this problem.”

So I did a bunch of research on when did it become the norm to be thin onstage and why? And it's, yeah, mostly Chicago, 1990 on Broadway. But I mean, it's always been a thing and it's also like – I don't want to speak too much on it because I'm not an expert, but it's also white supremacy too, the idea that in order for a body to be good, it must look a certain way. And fatphobia is wrapped into that as well. So it's very deep, but I think we are chipping away at it slowly but surely, slowly but surely.

Megan Gill: I agree with you. Indeed, and it's people like you telling the stories that you're telling and leading the spaces that you're leading that are a part of that movement.

Jennie Hughes: I hope to be.

Megan Gill: And hopefully these conversations that help educate people and open people's eyes. I think that's also a running theme of just our conversations so far, with Tick, Tick… Boom! and was it the…

Jennie Hughes: The artistic director.

Megan Gill: Oh, the artistic director, yeah. You opened her eyes. And it's unfortunate that we have to carry that weight and that that's now on our shoulders, in a sense. But also I it's a weight that, at least for me, I'm willing to carry.

Jennie Hughes: Oh, yeah. What a gift that I get to lead the charge.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Yes.

Jennie Hughes: Absolutely.

Megan Gill: For sure.

Jennie Hughes: Absolutely.

Megan Gill: So just for context, for anyone listening , we both went to school at the same time in college, in the same theater program. When I was writing A Broadway Body, which is the short film I created in 2021, I had reached out to you and a couple other of our friends and peers just asking if you were open to sharing your stories of your time in school and how body image played a role in your educational experience. And you were so kind to share so openly and vulnerably with me. But how has your relationship to your body shifted since graduating, since being removed from a place where you were not cast because of the size of your body and where people were feeding you these just, “It's fine. No one likes to do it. No one wants to work out, but work out anyways. You have to, otherwise there's no other way forward.” Now being nine years out of that, almost a whole decade out of that, where is your relationship with your body at now?

Jennie Hughes: That's a huge question. Well, I will say it was not an immediate like, “Oh, I left college and suddenly I'm free,” you know? I feel like even still I have a lot of habits, just even mentally, around perception of my own body. What I will say is I've never – probably in college, I knew it was fucked up, so I was trying to fight the demon of like, “Oh, well if you were just thinner, it would be better. If you looked this way, it would be better.”

So I would say I have a good relationship with my physical body and what it looks like now. I've gained curves in places I never knew I could, you know, and that just is part of aging, it's part of growing up. And something I am sort of on the upswing of right now is trying to re-align myself with fitness and physical health with a different lens because I think that in school, working out and eating healthy was only to be thin. That was the entire purpose. I talk about my life like a pendulum, right? When I was in school and when I freshly graduated, I swung really far into the pendulum of like, “I have to work out five times a week. I have to plan every calorie. I have to only think about what I'm doing to look a certain way.” And then, the pandemic hit, as it rocked all of our perception of everything, and I sort of swung in this other direction where I was like, “I'm gonna shave my head. I'm going to eat whatever I want. I'm never gonna work out again.” And you know, sort of, which again, shaving your head, do it. Everyone should do it. But, you know, I sort of really swung in this other direction, and now I'm sort of like, “Okay, I do still need to take care of my body, but I have to do it for the reason of my literal health and being strong enough to do the life I want to do.” And I think that that's something that we just never were taught in school. It was never like, “Hey, you should lift weights and run on the treadmill so that you can climb a ladder and belt a high B or, you know, what I mean. That should have been the reason.

Megan Gill: Yeah. I absolutely agree.

Jennie Hughes: Not, “You need to lift weights and run so that you can fit the costumes.”

Megan Gill: Right. It should have been, “You need to lift weights and run so that you are able to execute a full two-hour dance show and have the strength to do so,” or in a lift or if you're doing cartwheels, you have the mobility and the strength to execute the movement. Right.

Jennie Hughes: Exactly. Exactly. Absolutely, and that's something that – again the pendulum swings, right? So I hadn't worked out in years. I was dancing still. I think dancing is exercise, but I was not – something that never clicked for me that my partner actually told me was that dancing is great, but that's not training. “You love to dance and you should dance, but you need to train so that you can sustain the classes.” Because it's like I would take a class and then for three days after, be like, “Ugh, my back, my knees,” you know? Danny was like, “Well, if you work out, you'll be strong enough to do the things you want to do without pain,” you know?

To go back to answering your question, I'm now trying to find the middle between working out and obsessing and never working out and not thinking twice about any portion of my health. So I'm trying to find the middle ground, but I think that it's important to indulge. I think that mental health-wise, food is life.

Megan Gill: Food is life!

Jennie Hughes: I will never eat another iceberg lettuce with one cherry tomato for dinner again, you know what I mean? That's crazy.

Megan Gill: Yes, I know exactly what you mean.

Jennie Hughes: Like you said, it's all balance. And doing something for me instead of for other people is kind of where I'm at in my body journey.

Megan Gill: Ooh. Yeah. That's a really, really, really lovely recognition and a place that I think it does take us a while to get to.

Jennie Hughes: Oh, yeah.

Megan Gill: I'm right there with you. I’m in a very, very similar place in my relationship to my body and my health and movement and food, and it's there is a happy medium. It’s like there is this place where we are not obsessing about it and we do feel strong.

Jennie Hughes: It's not easy, and it's hard because I have, you know – as every person that grew up in the early two thousands, we have this obsession, whether we want it or not, with being thin, with eating healthy. And it's really, really hard. It's a constant reminder. And for me, rejection is my sort of obsession. I'm like, “Well, fuck that. I'm never gonna work out. I'm never gonna eat healthy.” And that's also not great, you know? So it's like you're either dealing with one or the other. But for me, it's sort of like I'll tell a little short story.

Early 2024, so early last year, I got my first big injury as an adult. I was teaching full-time. I was teaching music and dance for kiddos, and then I was also doing my theater company in my spare time, the evenings and weekends. And I was teaching a class for my theater company. We do donation-based classes, and my calf muscle absolutely strained, basically, in this class. And I was like, “Oh my god.” I couldn't work for three weeks. I was basically in bed, and it was huge. And I luckily started going to this physical therapist who has saved my life. I go to him every week now, almost Symbio Physio. Shout out! If you're in NYC, definitely check them out. They were lifesavers.

But something that he explained to me, because of course my first thought was, “Oh my god, I am so out of shape. My body just couldn't sustain the work I was doing.” And he was like, “That's actually not the case. You're not taking care – you're not hydrating enough. You're not stretching. You're not getting –,” you know? It was even just changing that – of course, if I was a little bit stronger and agile, I maybe wouldn't have had such a bad injury. But it's also about the repair of your body and the upkeep within it. You don't have to be running ten miles a day, but you have to do something for yourself in order to sustain life. You just have to, you know? Especially the life I want to live, you know?

Megan Gill: Right. Yeah, and I feel this is going back to the piece that we were not taught in school or that we're not taught by our society and by our culture, that it's about so many other things than just being thin.

Jennie Hughes: Yes.

Megan Gill: And that dials it down to one of the major core issues with the messaging that we receive about our bodies.

Jennie Hughes: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And you know, I've never wanted to be thin so bad that I would get lipo or, you know, do anything like that. But the folks who do that, they're still not actually healthy. They're still not actually well. And we have this whole industry that's built on wellness and “clean-girl aesthetic” and eating clean and healthy, and it's actually not with the best interest of the people in mind, you know?

So it's a big learning process, and I'm still not – I'm proud of myself. I got my membership to a gym back. I did used to go to the gym five days a week, and I would portion out every meal. I was really into it. But then, you know, I had my whole feminist awakening of like, “I’ve gotta swing the other way.” But I've got a gym membership. I'm trying again. You know, that's all we can do.

Megan Gill: Yay for strength!

Jennie Hughes: Yeah, I'm just trying to make choices now that I will be grateful for in the future. That is what I'm trying to do. Yeah.

Megan Gill: That is a word. Truly, that's so important, and I appreciate you talking about that and sharing that.

Jennie Hughes: Of course.

Megan Gill: I am wondering, before we wrap up, what your favorite thing or things about your body are. It can be physical, non-physical, both. Totally up to you!

Jennie Hughes: Okay, I'm gonna say two.

Megan Gill: Okay, great.

Jennie Hughes: First, I'll say a non-physical thing. I'm grateful I am very strong. I'm not benching or anything like that. But living in New York and doing the work I do with my theater company, I'm often carrying doorframes down the street or couches or three bags full of props and costumes, and I feel very, very grateful and very, very happy that my body is able to sustain that and do that. Again, I can have the life I want because I have this body. If I was, you know, different, I wouldn't be able to carry and do the things that I do. And it's also a way for me to help my community. I have a lot of people in my network who can't carry their backpack up the stairs, so I can help and do that. I'm a body. I can carry things. So I love that.

And then I will say I'm kind of obsessed with my curves. I love that about my body. I've always low key – I will sometimes just like – and I love the jiggle. I jiggle all the time. That's who I am. I've always been jiggly. And yeah, so I love that I jiggle, and I love the curves that I have. I'm really obsessed with that.

Megan Gill: I love that answer, those answers, both answers! They’re just so wonderful, and thank you for sharing!

Jennie Hughes: Thanks, Megan.

Megan Gill: Of course. Thank you for coming today to chat with me about this stuff.

Jennie Hughes: Yeah, of course. This was amazing!

Megan Gill: It really was.

Jennie Hughes: Yeah, I’d forgotten about all those stories. I was like, “Oh, damn!”

Megan Gill: I know. Wow!

Jennie Hughes: I want to say though, also thank you, Megan, for doing this. You're doing something that I would've never have considered to do, and it's really brave, and it's really important. So I'm happy that you're doing this.

“ They always tell you to go see shows and then pick the person in the show that you could follow, career-wise. That's a big advice thing for people to do. And for so long I was like, ‘Well, I can't really be anybody on Broadway because I don't know one who looks like me.’ But now there are more and more people.“

- Jennie Hughes

Jennie Hughes (she/her) is an NYC based award winning director, choreographer, educator and the founding director of Forager Theatre Company. She prioritizes work that is women-led and tells stories that are often overlooked in commercial theatre. Jennie believes in creating spaces where everybody feels seen, heard, and safe enough to truly challenge themselves through collaboration. Her most recent credits with Forager include: The Hand That Feeds You (Players Theatre), Flora the Red Menace (Court Square Theatre) and Tick, Tick...BOOM! (New Ohio and Kitchen Theatre). Jennie also works regionally and within NYC as a freelance director/choreographer. Notable credits include: Frizzled (director) at The PIT andThe Tank, Leading Lady Club and The Things I Did While Waiting For You To Fall Back In Love With Me (director) at 59E59 and Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

🔗 Check out Forager Theatre Company!

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While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome my long-time friend and fellow musical theatre actor and entrepreneur, Stacy Keele, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Stacy is not only an actor, she’s also a certified Human Design reader + Neuro-linguistic Programming coach helping chronically-ill entrepreneurs build body-led businesses their way, so they can show up in business authentically and avoid burnout.

In our conversation, we discuss how the hustle and grind of pursuing a professional musical theatre career in NYC left Stacy sick and struggling, but also ultimately brought her to her work today. Stacy dives into how Human Design can bring us back into our bodies and help us better relate to the ways we are meant to move in the world. She also ties all of this into how she functions herself (and helps spoonie-preneurs function) best as women in business in chronically-ill bodies. Stacy is a true light, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation!

“If you're a chronically-ill actor, or you're on the verge, or you feel like you're going that way, please, please, please take a step back and say, “How am I navigating life? Because theater's hard. It's hard emotionally. It's hard mentally. It's hard physically. Eight shows a week if you're on Broadway is hard fricking work. So we have to take care of ourselves in every capacity to be well enough to perform, which is a luxury and a privilege in itself. And so, when we can align with our design, it just helps make all of that so much easier to do.”

- Stacy Keele

Stacy Keele: So, hello, my name is Stacy Keele, also known as the Spoonie CEO Advisor. So I am currently helping spoonie-preneurs with chronic conditions, so chronically-ill entrepreneurs. I help guide them to reclaim their rest, rhythm, and revenue using Human Design. And Human Design is a map of your energetic DNA rooted in ancient wisdom and science. So it's this cool crossroads of science and woo. It is a tool. It's not a belief system, so you don't have to subscribe to any school of thought or religion to learn and experiment with your design. But it's a tool to really help us tap into who we were designed to be energetically in this world, which I think fits in a lot with our stories and A Broadway Body.

Megan Gill: Absolutely and just honoring your body and all of that good stuff.

Stacy Keele: Yeah, and it's been a wild, wild journey for me in these last 15 years from when we graduated from college, from the musical theater program, and after that I moved to New York City, and I lived there for a decade. And I worked my little butt off hustling, hustling, hustling, working eight jobs at a time. I found myself working at Ellen’s Stardust Diner for about seven years, which was wonderful and beautiful, and also brutal as hell. Trying to balance all of these parts of being an actor and running your own business, which is really what being an actor is, I think if I could go back and do it over, I would definitely have that mindset a little bit more instead of just trying to fit into all of these boxes that we think we have to fit into and that we have to shrink ourselves into. I worked myself into the ground trying to make all of this work, and I had success in New York. You know, I did. I got my equity card. I did a children's tour. And then COVID hit, and we located back down to Austin, Texas, which is where I am now.

But throughout all of that, trying to fit into boxes, trying to make the New York Life work, trying to make me fit into the New York life (is how I will say it) really led me to some chronic illness issues, and I got diagnosed with my first chronic illness – because we start to collect them like little puzzle pieces – was Hashimoto's, so a thyroid autoimmune. And I really came to that discovery when I was nannying (one of my million jobs in New York), and I found that I couldn't walk like five blocks without having to sit down. And I was like, “This is wild. What is going on here?” And so, I tried to find the answers, all the doctors. I finally ended up getting diagnosed with an autoimmune. And then quickly after that, I was diagnosed with Endometriosis and then Adenomyosis and then Psoriasis, and they just started happening to me.

And looking back, now knowing my Human Design, my energetic DNA, I realized that I was operating completely in opposition to how I'm designed. And I found that that was the biggest missing piece to what was going on. And now that I know in Human Design, I am an energy type that is a non-sacral, which means we don't have as much doer energy as the rest of the energy types. And how going back to college, going back to early New York days, I would do it a hundred percent differently. I would honor my energetic DNA. I would show up authentically. Looking back, I think of all the ways that I tried to change myself in order to be what casting wanted, what our school wanted, what we were told would book. And now I'm like, what a whole other life ago, you know? Instead of just showing up in the room and saying, “This is me.” I would wake up every day and I would straighten my hair and then I would wave it, and I have naturally curly hair. Like what?

Megan Gill: Oh, yep.

Stacy Keele: Like, what? What was I doing? You know, I was spending so much energy and brain capacity focusing on the foods I was eating and how to lose weight and how to, you know, ultimately ended up in all of those, you know, eating-disorder cycles because I just believed that I had to “fix myself” to book work, to be a successful actor, to succeed in any sort of way, shape, or form in this lifetime. And now I know that that is absolutely untrue and that could I have gone back and shown up authentically, I probably would've been more successful.

Megan Gill: And my story is similar, unfortunately, and I think for a lot of us, we try to shrink ourselves to fit into these boxes, specifically as actors looking to book work. Hearing you speak on all of that, I can't help but think, wow, if you and I were able to go back to our time in college now, knowing what we know now, obviously learning we've learned and experiencing what we've experienced and coming into ourselves and our bodies now, I think that, at least speaking for myself, I would've been so much more confident onstage, so much more confident in class, so much more confident in my art. I would've been able to perform more authentically. And I think it would've made me a stronger actor –

Stacy Keele: And person.

Megan Gill: Oh my god. Yes, absolutely. And then not to mention the fact that we were wasting so much brain power and time and energy on trying to “fix ourselves” to be this thing that our professors, the casting directors, the industry, the agents wanted us to “br,” at least what we thought in our heads. I'm like, wow, I could have taken all of that and energy and put it into becoming a better actor.

Now, I'm obsessed with television. In college and thereafter, up until the pandemic, I didn't watch tv. And now it's interesting because I'm making movies now, so it makes a little bit more sense that I'm really obsessed with TV. But wow, I just spend time watching the art and I’m just so grateful to have been, as one of my recent guests and friends Amy said, removed from the matrix. I removed myself from that way of life and that way of thinking. And now I'm able to actually do the things that I wanna do and that I love and put time and energy into watching art and making art instead of thinking, “What am I going to eat tonight? Oh no, I need to go work out X amount today because of XYZ,” and all of the bullshit that we

unfortunately were succumbed to.”

Stacy Keele: Yeah, I think what it really comes down to is we were so focused on the how, “How are we going to make this work? How are we going to be cast? How are we going to, you know, be successful and be what everyone wants,” that we lost track of the why. Why are we doing this, you know? It's like for you now, you're creating such beautiful, creative, important mission-based work that back then was not even on the radar because we were spending so much time worrying about, you know, how we looked and how we were perceived and if we could be the right type. And now it's just focused on the art in the mission, which is really the why. Why is so important

Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. And it's also interesting that we've both kind of diverted from the traditional musical theater actor trajectory. And I think that says a lot about where we've come as people as well as far as relating to ourselves and our bodies and honoring our energies. And it is a hustle,nand it is a hustle that I at least realized I was no longer willing to take part in, and also for me and the way that I energetically move in the world, it didn't work for my lifestyle anymore. And I mean, I'm very grateful that it didn't lead me to a chronic illness. I'm very, very grateful. But still, I was burnt out. I wasn't able to do the life things I wanted to. I was struggling for money. I was not stable, not happy in that grind. And even here in LA it's like there are things that I just say no to because I'm like, “Nope,” you know. I kind of like just being home. I don't really wanna travel and work unless it's for something that I really care about.

So I really appreciate you bringing that part of it up as well. And I'm curious to know a little bit more about how honoring that energy has led you – how your life is now versus when you were in the hustle of New York and, and the grind and the go, go go and this and that. I'm just curious to hear you speak on that.

Stacy Keele: Yeah, absolutely. It's completely different, like wildly, wildly different. And again, you know, I've said it already a couple times on this call, but you know, going back, I would just do things completely differently. I was throwing spaghetti against the wall being like, “Will this work? Will they like me here? Can I lose ten more pounds and be cast in this? Am I the right type?” And now is why I serve spoonie-preneurs. I don't know if we know what Spoon Theory is, if I can educate on that is for people listening being like, “What the fuck is Spoon Theroy?”

So Spoon Theory – and I apologize, because I cannot remember who coined this term [Christine Miserandino]. I should go look it up and we can amend. But spoon theory is a way for able-bodied, typically healthy people to understand the dilemmas and challenges and obstacles of living in a chronically-ill body. And they use it through the form of energetic expenditure in the form of spoons. So it's waking up one day and saying, “How many spoons do I have today to use?” Most people with chronic illness are dynamically disabled, which means one day they can't get outta bed and then the next they feel pretty good and they can go to the mall. Oh my gosh, who goes to the mall these days? Did I just give away my age? Who goes to the mall? Hilarious. They can go to the farmer's market, we'll use that, right?

Megan Gill: Very Austin/LA of you, yep.

Stacy Keele: But they have more energy to wake up, to get ready, to go socialize, to go someplace, right? They have more spoons to give out that day, and then when they wake up on a “bad day,” you know, showering is all they have room for. And , that'll take all your spoons, right? You wake up and you say, “I have five spoons today, and I spent three of them taking a shower.” So now we have to be more mindful of how we spend those last two spoons.

So when I say spoonie-preneur, that just means a chronically-ill entrepreneur, and I find that most chronically-ill entrepreneurs find themselves in self-employment because they can't sustain working for other people in dynamically-disabled bodies. And so, it's this stuck between a rock and a hard place because you can't work for somebody else because you keep flaring in your illness. And so, then you remove yourself from that environment and then you start working for yourself, and then you start looking up strategies of how to build a business.

Thinking back to being an actor and running my own business, it's like what strategies was I using? Strategies that didn't work for me that were like, “Oh, you know, dye your hair blonde or red, or be different, stand out. Don't wear your glasses in your headshots, or XYZ.” I never wore these in any headshots. And I'm like, curly hair and glasses? That's iconically me. And I was so far away from that back in my New York days, right? But I find that for spoonie-preneurs, you know, you go work for yourself, you try to build your own business, and you're still flaring because you're taking advice from able-bodied biz bros who have these strategies that are like, “Just make it work. Just wake up and do it.” And it's like you cannot do that if you are trying to create more time freedom and capacity to take care of yourself if you're working 80 hours a week. And so, then you're just like how do I make this work, and I find that the key piece lies in your energetic DNA, and it's how to create these actionable strategies that actually work for you instead of trying to, again, fit yourself into a box that you have no business being in.

So for me, I'm a projector in Human Design. In Human Design, there are five energy types. There are generators who are doers, manifesting generators like you, who are our divine multitaskers, who are here to do multiple things in their life, those little butterflies that taste the flour over here and say, “Oh, I love this, and then now I'm done and let me go to the next flower.” We have reflectors who make up 1% of the population who have completely open energy that reflect and evaluate the environments and the people they're around. And we have manifesters who are the initiators, and we're all taught to be initiators no matter what we're doing. Capitalism, thank you. If you wanna go get it, make it happen. Do it yourself. Be that captain of the ship, right? But that's only energetically correct for one energy type in Human Design, and that's the manifester. And then I am a projector. We make up 20% of the population. We are not doers; we are seers, we are guides. We're here to help make other people's energy more efficient. So it's less about the doing and it's more about the seeing. We can see further down the timeline for ourselves and other energy types to say, “Oh, what a beautiful mission. What about this thing that you're gonna hit in two years, two weeks, two days that might cause some issues,” right? And so I was operating like a generator. I was like, go, go, go, do, do, do all the time, because that's what our society tells us is valuable, is productive.

Megan Gill: That’s also what the land of pursuing a professional musical theater career leads you to innately do. Because without the going to get and the doing and the showing up to the EPA and the ECC and whatever, you're not gonna book, you're never gonna get the work. I just wanted to point that out too.

Stacy Keele: Yeah, they teach us it's a numbers game, and in Human Design it is anything but a numbers game. It's checking in with your aura saying, “Do I belong here? Is this what I actually want to be doing? Is this worth my time and energy and capacity, right? Instead of being mindful and intentional, we're told to just like go to all the open calls, and then you wake up at 5:00 AM and you're exhausted by the time it's 10:00 AM and you get a number and it's just like, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. And then we start creating all those narratives about ourselves. “Well, I'm just lazy. Well, I'm not good enough. Well, maybe if I just…”

Megan Gill: “Well, why can she do it, and I can’t?”

Stacy Keele: Yeah, that comparison game, which gets you absolutely nowhere. You know, “Maybe if I just lost 20 more pounds, I could make it work,” right? Instead of, “How about I take a step back and look at my energetic DNA, my Human Design, and say, “Where am I not living in alignment, and how can I shift more into that to create more time freedom, more health,” and time to take care of our bodies and be intentional and mindful and go at it from a very strategic point instead of just showing up to everything, including the things that you're not right for.

How many times have we heard from mentors, teachers, professors of, “Even if you're not right for it, go. Just go. Have them see you.” No, stop telling people that.

Megan Gill: God, I so agree. And I do think that like our industry, specifically, is shifting. The performance industry is like, “Do not show up for that dance call for fucking whatever, Hamilton, if you're not right. You know, or just read the room, be smart, don't show up for everything. Be discerning.

Stacy Keele: Yeah. Don't go to the Book of Mormon call. They don't wanna see you.

Megan Gill: Yeah, exactly, and I love that you are speaking about all of this and bringing this to the table today, because something for me that has really shifted the way that I'm living and moving in the world is last year my word of the year was “ease,” because I realized, much like you that I don't operate well when I'm go, go, go, packing my days, doing this and that and running around. I am a ball of stress. I'm a ball of anxiety. I am not well mentally and physically because of it. And I really made the conscious effort to find more ease in my life, not make my life easier, right? But find where I am in this space moving with just a general air of ease, and it truly has changed my life. Granted, we can't achieve that ease every single day. Right. It ebbs and it flows.

Stacy Keele: It’s the human experience, yeah.

Megan Gill: Exactly. But I think it's so, so, so important that you are doing what you do and that you are helping spoonie-preneurs see, “I have this much capacity. I operate in this way, and that is okay. I don't have to look at my friend over here who is going, going, going every single moment of every single day, always doing, and feel bad about myself and feel bad about my choices to move at a slower pace because that works for me,” and when I honor what works for me, just like with the acting stuff, when you honor what's truly Stacy (the glasses, the curly hair) you show up from an authentic, confident place. And isn't that the beauty of being a human being in the first place?

Stacy Keele: Yeah, absolutely. And I love the word ease. And in Human Design, a lot of that is activating your flow state, is activating those moments where you are, as the manifesting generator, attracting. You're responding. You're not initiating, you're not chasing. You're leaning into the things that you love. You're overflowing this beautiful sparkle in your aura, and you are magnetizing the right opportunities and people and collaborations and projects to you to then respond to, and it's so much easier to live your life from that point of view, from that way. And you're right, the human experience is full of ups and downs. It's ebbs and flows. It's peaks and valleys, and just because we learn our Human Design or just because we learn our astrology or just because we learn brain science, right – I also have my life coaching cert in neurolinguistic programming, which is so beneficial in tandem with Human Design, because we create new neural pathways to help support these shifts we're moving into energetically instead of being like, “Eh, I don't know, nothing's working. I don’t know, I guess I'm gonna trust it.” But our brains need that evidence to help activate that flow state and say, “Oh, I do belong here, and it is possible, and things are easier, and I do make more money when I'm in flow.” And just because we learn these things, you know, it doesn't mean that life is going to be perfect. There's no such thing as perfect, but it helps us navigate it better. It helps us stay regulated instead of that reactivity that is so easy when we do wake up at 5:00 AM to go to the open call and put our name on the unofficial list.

To be fair, like I haven't been in New York for almost five years now, which time is freaking flying. So, you know, I imagine they still have unofficial lists. I imagine people are still waking up or rolling out of bed at midnight to be first on our list to see if they honor it, which is wild. But it helps us see how dysregulated are we in those moments of having hundreds of hundreds of people around us warming up, putting on their makeup, curling their hair, also trying to fit into a box they think that casting wants instead of just – nobody wants that.

I remember my very first audition in New York, I didn't know how it worked, right? Which is a whole other story of like, why aren't we taught that in college of how do auditions actually work in New York or LA or Chicago, these different markets. We're just not taught that. We're thrown to the wolves saying, “Good luck. Figure it out,” you know? And so, I remember I got there, and I was not ready at all. And I had all my stuff and there was nowhere to sit. And it was raining. Oh God, it was raining. I looked like a wet rat, and all of these girls take off their hoods and they're in perfect condition at 7:00 AM. And I was like, “Oh, is that how we're supposed to do it?” And that's such a good metaphor for all of this, you know? “Is this how I should be doing it? Is this how it's done? How do I do it?” And having these resources and tools and knowledge helps when those moments come when we do feel dysregulated, when we do feel not enough, when we are not in flow state to help activate these strategies to then find our way back into it so much easier and with grace and compassion through love instead of hate.

And that's a really big thing that I've learned in these last 15 years, is that you can't change anything from a place of hate. You can only shift from a place of love. And I think that in this industry, we're taught to hate ourselves every step of the way. “You're not pretty enough. You're not the right look. You're not small enough. Shrink yourself. That's the wrong song. That's a bad monologue.” You know, “Who do you think you are? An ingenue? You're a character actor, but that's not right.” You know, “How can we make your voice type match your physical type,” instead of just saying, “This is me, this is what I bring, this is my magic. Put it on stage or don't.”

Megan Gill: That's the magic, right? When we can show up as our true, genuine selves and authentically sing what we want to sing, what feels good to us, and wear what we want to wear, what feels good to us, not the jewel-toned dress with –

Stacy Keele: I was gonna say that!

Megan Gill: – heels that I'm toppling over in with crazy makeup on. It's such a game changer, and I think that, for me, in the last couple of years since getting in touch with the work that I really want to do in the world and really owning myself and showing up as myself and doing all of the work that I have taken a lot of time to do with myself, I think it's just changed the way that I show up in the world so much. My confidence is so much higher than it was ten years ago when I had just graduated college and I had went to pursue this career in Chicago. I look back and I'm just like, “Wow. Like no wonder I didn't –,” I mean, I'm grateful for, like you said, the work that I did have.

Stacy Keele: Of course.

Megan Gill: And I'm like, oh, well I just, I can't help but imagine how much more work I could have done or what other opportunities I could have had if I was living more in alignment with how I am supposed to show up in the world and if I was able to like my voice confidently and share my art confidently instead of feeling like I had to hide myself and hide all of these things that I didn't want other people to see.

Stacy Keele: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's so sad.

Megan Gill: It really is.

Stacy Keele: And not just, you know, how we show up in the room, but also the networking part of it too. When I was in New York, I hated to see a networking event coming. I was like it couldn’t be me. I don't want to talk to these people. I don't want to do this. And now networking is my bread and butter in my business and I love it because it's genuine, it's authentic, it's those connections. In my Human Design, I do have the channel of the salesperson, which is about being able to sell myself, sell my business, sell my services, sell what I love and feel really passionate about because it's coming from a soul place and not an ego place. I'm not trying to scam people. I'm not trying to say, “You need this because…,” you know, those pain points. I hate pain point marketing. It just feels so icky to me, and it's about rising together. If I had that mindset back in New York with networking, oh my gosh, it could have been so different. In the industry it's all about who you know, and it always used to feel so sleazy to me. But I mean, it's, it's true. If you're a good person and you do good work and you show up authentically, people want to work with you. But I had such a mindset of, “'m not a car salesman. I am not gonna go to these events and lie about myself and say I'm a Ferrari when I'm a lemon,” you know, not that I'm a lemon.

Megan Gill: No, absolutely not!

Stacy Keele: But in the grand scheme of things, the habits we have, the networking we do, the way we view ourselves, the way we've been taught to view ourselves in the deconditioning and deprogramming – you mentioned unplugging from the matrix, how we're designed to hate ourselves and view ourselves, especially as women, because that's where our power lies and they want to take that away and they want us to be small, because what happens if we're expansive? What happens if we show up authentically? What happens if we take up space in the room, you know? Which is why like I do focus on working with spoonie-preneurs and spiritual service providers, but also I would absolutely freaking die to work with actors who are still doing the thing in New York and Chicago in LA and saying, “Hey, don't become chronically-ill like me. Learn the lessons,” or if you are chronically-ill, don't keep pushing those patterns and narratives. Let's take a breath, because you can have wealth as well as health.” It's not one or the other, and it doesn't have to be. It's just about how we get there and how we set up our lives and our businesses and how we navigate the world that matters. And when we do it according to our energetic DNA, it's like a sunroof opens and suddenly the beautiful rays are just shining right upon us. Instead of trying to dodge and find it. “Where's the spotlight? I can change to fit into it.” No bitch, just be you and let the sun shine upon you.

Megan Gill: Yeah, and I really do believe that it functions that way, and I feel like I've seen proof with myself and my story that it functions that way.

Okay, I have a question for you. As someone who has found themselves so aligned with their work and so passionate about the work that you're doing now, that's very different from pursuing the career of a professional actor, do you think that – knowing everything you know now and who you are now, do you think that had you had these tools and known these things about yourself, hypothetically, when you were going to New York to pursue this career, that it would've completely shifted your relationship to music theater and to pursuing a professional career in that work?

Stacy Keele: I think I'm where I am now because of the struggles I went through in college and in my early days in New York, and there's a whole other part of my story even before I got to Wichita. When I was at – I'll say it, I was at Oklahoma City University and boy that did a number on me.

Megan Gill: I forgot about this.

Stacy Keele: Yes. That was like – I stayed two years. I stayed a year too long. I transferred to Wichita my junior year, which was the boldest, bravest, best decision I ever made for myself because Wichita, you know, as – I don't even wanna say harmful, but as maybe outdated or – we're all doing the best we can with what we know. And I do believe that all of our professors there did the best that they could with nurturing us and trying to set us up for success. They were five million percent better than Oklahoma City.

From the minute I stepped foot on Oklahoma City's grounds, I was like, “Wow, this doesn't feel good. This isn't right for me.” I didn't get into their musical theater program. I got into their music program and I was like, “Great, I'll get to know the staff and the people and then re-audition for music theater and get in,” because that's what I was told could happen. And I never worked with any of the faculty there. It was all adjunct. They never even let me talk to anyone who was in the music theater professor, instructor world. I rushed when I didn't want to rush because my sisters were like, “It's the best thing!” because they were big sorority people, and I was not. And so, I let them convince me and then I fell through the cracks. And so, I didn't get into any houses there. I remember calling my parents being like, “Nobody wants me. I feel so unwanted. I feel so unrecognized. This is insane.” I stayed two years. I should have stayed a semester maybe. But then I found myself in Wichita.

But Wichita is where I really did a lot of deconstructing of the harm that was done to me at OCU. It was just like a completely different world, but I am who I am now because of all of that, because of those struggles, because of the processing and the integration in the healing and the deprogramming that I've had to do. And because of that, that's how I got into NLP. That's how I got into astrology and Human Design and channeling and being the witchy entrepreneur that I am now. So I have to give props to younger me for surviving all of that and choosing healing. Good for me, good for me, younger, me. I love you. You're the best.

But also knowing what I know now, if I could go back, it would be a hundred percent different, like totally different. When I think about my time working at Ellen’s Stardust Diner, which was in Times Square, it was the singing diner, you know, I would work doubles there. I would work doubles into opening shifts. And a double at Ellen’s Stardust Diner, I would work opening to closing doubles, which would be get there at 7:00 AM, leave at 1:00 AM, be back at 8:00 AM. And I made so much money. I was rolling in it, you know? But that's what made me sick. That's what contributed to my illness because I didn't know any better. I thought, “This is how it's done. This is how you make money. This is how you support yourself.” But then you're so burnt out from working that even going to the auditions is hard.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Stacy Keele: And so, I would do things wildly different, and I do believe I would be much more successful. And in my own chronic illness, I did have a hysterectomy last year to cure my Adenomyosis. So Adenomyosis is when it lives in the uterus. They're a different pathology but Endometriosis is outside of the uterus. And so, there's no cure for Endo, but there is for Adeno. So I decided to have a hysterectomy, which has been revolutionary for my energy and capacity and pain. I was in debilitating pain 24/7.

And so, just now, recently, I've been wanting to get back into the theater scene here in Austin. And so, I’m thinking about using all of these tools that I now have that I give to my clients, that I give to the actors that I do talk to who are still doing the game, you know, I would take all of that and will hopefully create success in that arena as well, here in Austin, when I decide – when I find a show that I want to audition for, when my energy says, “This one,” right? Again, it's not a numbers game. I'm not gonna go to every theater here and be like, “Well, I guess I'll just try.” No, that's not how we do it. So, yes and for that question.

Megan Gill: I had a feeling that was gonna be your answer, but I had to ask. And I also have to think of course all of that adversity, if you will, and all of that trauma that you had experienced in your past led you here. And I just commend you for taking that and wanting to help others and wanting to help others do it differently and show people that there is another way. I think that's so, so, so, so important and I feel very aligned with that in my mission as well. It's like, well, if we went through all of this stuff, we have a hand in helping more people not experience and see that there’s another way and see that if you are living in alignment with yourself as an actor, for instance, and you're only showing up to the auditions that really speak to you, that that's when the magic happens and that's when you're gonna end up booking, because it means something to you and because it feels right to you and because your heart's actually in it. I just think that that is really, really, really important. And obviously life is so long, knock on wood, right?

Stacy Keele: So long, too long. Just kidding.

Megan Gill: So the fact that like you're getting back into the theater is amazing, and there’s so much time to do it all, you know?

Stacy Keele: Yeah. It's so funny, I was talking to my friend Dustin, who also lived in New York and did the theater thing and how we're getting older now. I'm 38, and he just turned 40, and we were talking about how we'll still – I was just listening to Rock of Ages, which is one of my silly guilty pleasure musicals. I love it. But how we'll still listen to cast albums and how we have to change our point of view of who we would be. I was listening to Dear Evan Hansen the other day and I was like, “You would be the mom. You would be a mom character now,” which is also so crazy to be like, “Where am I at now in life? What am I auditioning for now in life? What energy do I bring now in life?” It made me laugh that I was like, “Yeah, you would not play Evan Hanson. You would play the dad.” He was like, “Yep.”

Megan Gill: Yeah. But also I think that in and of itself can have a lot that comes up for us as far as body stuff goes. And as far as like, “Okay, let me honor who I am now as I'm aging in this industry,” and some people I think, have a hard time with that and really try to fight it. But again, I just believe that the alignment happens when we just trust in what is meant for us and what feels good to us. Aging is obviously this big, scary thing, no matter how much we wanna say, “Oh, I'm fine with it. I'm excited to get older.” It’s still scary. And I think it's just framed differently for actors when you're now thinking like, “Oh yeah, I would be the mom.” I'm 33 at the age where I'm auditioning for mom a lot, especially being very Midwestern. It's like, yeah, I'm giving mom, and that's kind of weird because also I'm not a mom, and I don't even have a partner, and all of that stuff that comes up with it too, which again, I think just ties back to body also, you know?

Stacy Keele: Yeah. But Human Design has a hundred percent – I will not say it is the reason I've done all this healing, because it's not, I have to give myself credit for, you know, finding this path before I found Human Design. But it has been such a supportive tool of helping me understand who I need to be in a designed to be in this world and understanding how to age gracefully and how to deconstruct and unplug from this programming of, “Well, you're 33. Where's your husband and your wife, your kids, your white picket fence. Where's that?” And collectively – you know, Pluto's an Aquarius now. This is the age of Aquarius. We're moving towards that more divine feminine leadership, which is about intention and mindfulness and less about the masculine action-packed, “Just do it. Go for it. Show up to every call and make it happen.” Like, no, we're more in the receiving era. So when we can learn our design, right, we learn how to receive those opportunities more instead of trying to take that initiative to say, “Well, I'll just lose that weight, right?” And it's helped me so much find peace in my body, in my chronically-ill body, which is also very difficult, and honoring and being compassionate and gentle with myself on my bad days, on those dynamic-disability days where I have the migraine and I cannot open my eyes, or when I have the cramping in my legs, and I can't walk. Sometimes people with endo need a mobility aid, a cane, and people look at you with invisible illness, and they're like, “You don't need that! What are you doing? You're taking that handicap spot from someone else,” because we look fine, you know?

And also if you're a chronically-ill actor or you're on the verge or you feel like you're going that way, you know, please, please, please take a step back and say, “How am I navigating life? Because theater's hard. It's hard emotionally. It's hard mentally. It's hard physically. Eight shows a week if you're on Broadway is hard fricking work. So we have to take care of ourselves in every capacity to be well enough to perform, which is a luxury and a privilege in itself. And so, when we can align with our design, it just helps make all of that so much easier to do.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, you're doing really, really, really, really, really important work.

Stacy Keele: Thank you.

Megan Gill: And I'm really glad that you have found this, and I know that it's so important and it's life-changing. Just pointing out another reason to not comment on people's

bodies and to not comment on maybe the aid that they're using. You do not know what people are going through.

Stacy Keele: Never.

Megan Gill: And you do not know what is going on in somebody's mental, in somebody's physical, and just do not – just don't. Just don’t even. Why…

Stacy Keele: Just stop. Just stop. Stop doing it!

Megan Gill: Yeah, just don't do it. Just don't do it. Another reason to not do it because, right, especially with invisible illness, you don't know what's going on, or with eating disorders and body stuff. It's so invisible. People think it's not, but it is, and you just do not know what people are going through.

Stacy Keele: Yeah, and you think giving somebody a compliment saying, “You've lost weight. You look great,” is a good thing, but you, again, don't know what somebody's going through. Maybe they haven't eaten in four days. Maybe they, you know, have binge-eating disorder, maybe they purge, you know, and it's just reinforcing those patterns by saying, “You're looking good.”

Megan Gill: Right.

Stacy Keele: You can say other things besides, you know, “Oh, you've lost weight,” you know? You can give other compliments. “You're looking strong, you're looking happy, you're looking –,” you know?

I don't comment on people's bodies, but especially in the – this is a whole nother conversation – but the age of GLP-1 inhibitors and things like that, everyone do you. If that's right for you, then I support it. But right when they had started coming out, I had some friends who were on them who were dropping significant weight, and I pulled one aside and I was like, “Listen, I don't comment on bodies. I make it a rule to do that, but you're my friend and I'm worried about you. Are you okay?” And she was like, “Yes, I am okay. Thank you for asking that.” And then I was like, “Great!” And then I let it lie, you know? But yeah, as a rule, just shut up. I tell my nephews that a lot. “Commenting on bodies is not kind!”

Megan Gill: Yeah, you don’t know what people are going through. Yeah.

Okay, I have a final question for you before we wrap up today. What is your favorite thing or your favorite things about your body?

Stacy Keele: Oh, wow. My favorite things about my body are what it does for me. So since I've moved back to Austin, I've gotten into pole dancing, pole fitness, it has been very challenging. I don't know if you've ever tried it, but it is very hard and you have to be strong as hell to do it. And, again, dynamic disability: sometimes I go and I can't do anything, and then other times I go and I nail the combo. And I just really love supporting my body in that giving it a pat on its back saying, “Look what you did for me today. You showed up today,” right?

So that is probably the biggest thing lately is what can my body do for me instead of what isn't it doing for me? Especially as a spoony, as somebody who's chronically ill, it's easy to focus on the cans and the won'ts and the used to’s and the mourning, which I've done a lot of, but now I'd like to celebrate it for what it does do on its good days.

Megan Gill: Yeah, I think that's such an important reframe, and thank you for sharing

that.

Stacy Keele: Wait, what's yours? Can I ask you, can I turn that back on you?

Megan Gill: Sure, why not! Mine is my smile and my laugh. It's something that, yes, a smile is physical, but my laugh is not something that you can see, and just the way that you can connect with people through a smile and through laughter and the way that it makes other people feel, and vice versa, the way that other people's laughs make me feel just really, really special to me and something that I really value.

Stacy Keele: Yes, you do have a beautiful smile and laugh.

Megan Gill: Thanks!

Stacy Keele: I love it.

Megan Gill: Yay. Well, thank you for coming on today.

Stacy Keele: Thank you so much for having me. This was such a wonderful conversation, and I think that it's important to keep having these conversations, these continued conversations. (See what I did there?) Because it is so important, you know, to have different points of view and to have people on to explain their relationships with how they got – with acting in their bodies and the traumas they've experienced (big T, little t), and the healing that is possible within that, because I hope that a lot of people who are experiencing the things that we experienced in college and and in these cities and trying to pursue theater find Continued Conversations, find A Broadway Body, find this community of, “Hey, there's a different way,” and you don't have to create success through hating yourself or trying to fix yourself and turn yourself into these different boxes that you can create success just by being yourself.

“They teach us it's a numbers game, and in Human Design it is anything but a numbers game. It's checking in with your aura saying, “Do I belong here? Is this what I actually want to be doing? Is this worth my time and energy and capacity, right? Instead of being mindful and intentional, we're told to just like go to all the open calls, and then you wake up at 5:00 AM and you're exhausted by the time it's 10:00 AM and you get a number and it's just like, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. And then we start creating all those narratives about ourselves. “Well, I'm just lazy. Well, I'm not good enough. Well, maybe if I just… Maybe if I just lost 20 more pounds, I could make it work,” right? Instead of, “How about I take a step back and look at my energetic DNA, my Human Design, and say, “Where am I not living in alignment, and how can I shift more into that to create more time freedom, more health,” and time to take care of our bodies and be intentional and mindful and go at it from a very strategic point instead of just showing up to everything, including the things that you're not right for.”

- Stacy Keele

Stacy Keele is a certified Human Design reader + Neuro-linguistic Programming coach currently located in Austin, TX. She helps guide spoonie-preneurs w/ chronic conditions to reclaim rest, rhythm, + revenue through energetic DNA, building body-led businesses their way!

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While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome my sweet friend and mindset coach, Amy McNabb, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! I’ve known Amy since 2021 when we met in an online business program. She’s slowly but surely become a dear friend of mine as well as the mindset coach I work with as an actor and a business woman. Amy is a voice actor, a singer, and a mindset coach for actors and businesswomen. Amy’s work has impacted me deeply. She has a special way of supporting female actors, and there was no doubt I needed to bring her on for a conversation.

Amy shines a light on so many vital body image topics. Her thoughts on removing yourself from the societal matrix is a beautiful representation of what it’s like to be combating diet culture and the harmful side of the beauty industry. She discusses how to navigate wardrobe as an actor both on stage and on screen. She also shares her personal journey with listening to her body and intuitively eating. This conversation with Amy was wildly healing for me, and I hope it’s healing for you too. I hope you walk away reminded of just how much you sparkle, and in the words of Amy, “Shine, baby, shine.” ✨

“ [This conversation] was a cool opportunity to step outside the Matrix a little bit and observe it and also observe it in a way that's not negative. Because I think it's really easy to be like, “This fucking sucks. It sucks that there's diet culture. It sucks that we are supposed to be thin. It sucks that we're in a time that there's a magic pill, magic shot that'll make you thin,” which for some people is super freeing, which is awesome. But it's a hard time, a hard thing, and it's easy to just like, “Damn the torpedoes,” and just be like, “This sucks.” So it's fun to talk about it in a way that's like, well, we're all in it together. We're just kind of in different spots of it, but we're all here.”

- Amy McNabb

Megan Gill: I'm wondering, because you specifically work with actors and because the stuff you're working on is a lot of the mindset stuff, has body image come up for you with your clients? Obviously, please do not disclose anything. But I'm just curious to know how often that comes up, if that's something that you find yourself approaching with your clients, and just how that shows up for you in your work.

Amy McNabb: Yeah. So it does come up, I think, especially because I work with women. All of my clients know this, and I will say it here publicly, I am not a therapist. I'm not a licensed therapist. I do not have a degree in psychology, and I do not have certifications in body image management or eating disorders or body dysmorphia or anything like that. So I'm very careful in those conversations because I'm very aware, being friends with a lot of folks who are. Experts in that area and having dealt with body dysmorphia over the course of my life and disordered eating in various forms over the course of my life, I don’t ever want to say the wrong thing, and I think to each person it is such a sensitive topic, right? So I am very careful when it comes up. And oftentimes in sessions when, when something comes up, whether that's a body related thing or any kind of trauma related thing, that's typically in the conversation where I will say, “So, as a reminder, a therapist. I'm not certified in this. I'm not licensed in this. So anything that we talk about within this, this is gonna be me as a friend, and it's not a professional opinion,” because I just want to be really careful, and I, and I try to just find ways to lift up the person and remind them who they are and how powerful they are and that, you know, they’re beautiful as they are. But it does come up, right, because especially if you're on camera or on stage, you're being seen in an amplified manner. And so, you are feeling more exposed.

And so it definitely has come up. It's interesting because it comes up across the board, but you know, with newer actors, a great example is the first time that they try on costumes for a show, let's say for a stage show, and if they're newer, it's like, “I don't like the way my body looks in the costume. I don't like the way I feel. Everyone's gonna see me. Why does she get to be the pretty girl and I have to be the frumpy one? All of that stuff comes up. And in my job in that moment. My job is to really just let them know they're not alone in that feeling and that that's super normal and that no matter what, when you're doing theater, let's say, or film, when you put on the costumes for the first time, there's definitely gonna be a moment where you're like, “How do I look? How does my body look?” And how's a lot of work there as internally as a person to say, “Well, how does this serve the character?” right? But that's always gonna be the second thought.

The other area that comes up a lot is in headshots. Yeah. I think in headshots it's – the advice I typically give with headshot is, especially if you've struggled with body dysmorphia or if you've struggled with just the way you look in general, when they come back to you, do a first glance, scroll through, and then you'll get all of those thoughts, all of the negative thoughts. You're gonna notice all the things that you've hated about your body for a long time, or the things that you used to hate about your body, or the things that you love about – you might not notice the love, but the hate's gonna come first. And so, typically I’m like, “Do a flash through. Do not actually make any assessment of them and whether they're good or bad, but put them aside. Take a couple days, and then go back, and typically that nice voice will kind of come through.” So yeah, those are really the two areas where it comes up the most.

Megan Gill: This is really interesting to hear because as I'm sure you might be able to relate with this in your own ways, but as someone who's been acting for a long time, both on stage and on screen, I feel I'm so immune almost to seeing myself in these various forms, in various costumes. I mean, I haven't been on stage in a long time, so there's that. But it makes so much sense that for a newer actor, especially someone who's maybe in their adult years or post-college grad to have all of these thoughts come up. Because I feel it's a little bit different when you're a kid. I'm really glad that they have you. And yes, you're not a licensed professional, per se, but the ways in which it sounds you are uplifting your clients and you're reminding them that they're good and reminding them, “Hey, how does this wardrobe serve character?” Because ultimately that's what it's about. Just having that other – one more voice reminding you that you're okay and that sometimes we are our harshest critic.

I love the rundown of, “Give yourself some time with your headshots. Try not to be too overly critical,” because oh my god, no matter what, no matter how I'm feeling about myself and my body, I can look at a session, and we can always find something that we don't right? That's inevitable.

Amy McNabb: Yeah, and I think, you know, it's interesting, right? Because I think for maybe more seasoned actors, you could still have the moment with the costume where you're like, “No, please don't put me in this in front of other people.” But I think there's more of a muscle that's been worked over the years where you can be like, “Okay, well, I don't have a choice. Or maybe I do have a choice. Maybe I can give feedback and be ‘Hey, can we let these pants out a little bit? Because they're really tight for what I'm trying to do,’” right? So you have more options, I think, when you've been in it for a while, because you know you can ask, but also you do have that muscle of, “All right, well, it serves a character and also there's nothing I can do in the meantime, so moving on.”

But that's not to say that I don't have these conversations with people who've been in it for a while because our bodies are always changing, especially as women. I mean our bodies change over the course of a month. The different parts of our cycle have different body reactions, different hormones, different, you know, water retention, all kinds of things, and also different eating habits, which can make people feel a certain way. So I definitely talk to seasoned actors about this also. And often within that, the conversation's less about what my costume looks and more, “I don't recognize myself,” or “I don't feel like me, and it makes me anxious to be seen in this moment.” But what I love and admire about all of my clients and about actors in general is that, typically, we push through that because we love the art so much and we love an opportunity to do what, to quote a client, what makes us feel we're flying. And so, we will move through it. It is painful often, but we'll do it because it's an opportunity to do the thing we love, you know?

Megan Gill: I have to wonder how much moving through it and circumventing all of those thoughts and struggles and inner things that we harp on, I wonder how going through that all and getting to the actual art and the execution of the art, then, I don't know, helps us work through all that stuff even on a subconscious level. I don’t know. That's just such an interesting point to bring up.

Amy McNabb: So I grew up doing theater, and then I did a tiny, tiny bit of on camera, and then now I do voiceover. Theater's interesting, right? Because you have the moment when you put on the costume and you're like, “Oh boy.” I always played the nerds. I was always a character role. I was not the ingenue. I'm kind of too funny and too loud to be the ingenue. So I was always these other character parts, and so the costumes were always – there was always a moment. In college, I remember walking down the hallway once and the third show that I was in and one of the upperclassmen, I was in another rough costume, just a big flowery, floral hat, and I was supposed to be this kind of unattractive woman. It literally described that, “unattractive woman,” in the script. And this upperclassman who, you know, I loosely had a crush on (but who knows, I had a crush on all of them), he walked by and he just went, “Ugh, woof,” to having another costume that was unattractive.

Megan Gill: Wow.

Amy McNabb: I remember kind of laughing with him because he wasn't a bad dude. He wasn't being a jerk. He was just kind of being like, “Oh my God, you're in another shitty situation as a 19-year-old,” you know? And I, but I remember feeling that and then being like, “Yeah, but I'm really funny. It works for the thing.” And it hurt, and the thing that I stood by was – someone said this to me, actually I forget, it might have been a teacher. In theater, and really in all of it, yes, I had to wear the costume on stage. That's when everyone sees you, but everyone also sees you when you come out at the stage door. And so, you get to come out as you, and I love the way I look and I love who I am and I, you know, was really proud of my work, and I don't always love the way I look, but you know, there was enough confidence behind it that it was like I get to come out with my brown hair and the clothes that I chose and the makeup that I want or don't want. I get to decide. So there was some agency in that that kind of gave me some freedom. And I think that’s also what I tried to give to clients who were thinking about it in theater.

But in film, I remember the first time I did a commercial workshop in New York, and there was a monitor what was on the camera. I remember trying to focus on the teacher and constantly just looking to my right, being like, “That's my face. That's my face real big and close up and all of you were looking at it twice.” And I didn't say it, but my system was kind of glitching out because I was 22, 23, and I was like, “I don’t like this. I don’t like that there.” I think now at 35, I think I'd feel a little differently about it just because there's just a different level of confidence at this age.

Megan Gill: Right. I can very much relate to that trajectory as well of coming up in theater and it's almost yeah, you're in the fitting room, you're with the wardrobe designers trying on your costumes, XYZ, and you're looking at yourself in the mirror and then you're in the dressing room getting ready for the show. And you obviously can see yourself in the mirror. But then once you're on stage, it's this interesting thing of there is no mirror. You are just there. And there is a bit of freedom in that I feel we do not have when it comes to film and TV and the hyper ability to see yourself, or even if you're on set and you aren't looking at the monitor, you're still so aware that you're being seen by X amount of people potentially in very close-up shots or whatever it may be, you know?

Amy McNabb: Yeah, and one of the things as I moved to LA and started doing some, you know, indie film type stuff, short films and things, because I think when it comes to body image and. way we look at all this stuff. For me, the two things that have always gotten me are the size of my body or the curves and then acne, because I grew up with pretty bad acne, and I still occasionally have it, but overall it's cleared up just being in my thirties. But I remember in my twenties moving here and being like, “Oh my god, I'm gonna do on camera.” And I always had hormonal breakouts down here on my chin. And I remember asking a makeup artist, I was like, “Can you cover this?” And I remember her saying, “We can cover color but not texture.” And it freaked me out because I was like this is just gonna be permanent, in these films? You're just gonna be able to tell?

And it's wild because our TV quality has gotten better and better and better. And so, when I watch some shows that are older, I'm oh, you can tell that they had acne that was covered by a certain type of makeup, but the quality of TV that we were watching, the technological quality, you couldn't tell, but now you can because everything's high def or whatever. And it's really cool and also, as an actor, very frustrating, and it's a mental gymnastics game. The thing that sucks is that, as an actor, those aren't the mental gymnastics you want to be doing. You want to be doing mental gymnastics with the character and the intention and the scene and the chemistry, and also the logistics of what the hell the director just told you to do. You don’t want to be doing mental gymnastics about how does my stomach look? How does my face look? How does my hair look? But it's really hard.

Megan Gill: Right, right. It's two sides of the same coin, where on one side, as the actor, it is a struggle with something, like you were speaking about having acne and being like, “Okay, I'm gonna be the person that's gonna show up on camera.” And it's really vulnerable and can be really scary to be that actor showing up in that way. And yet at the same time for viewers and people watching to be able to say, “Look, she has acne too. It's okay!” To not villainize it as much, but it's unfortunate that our society has villainized all these things, particularly about women's bodies, that us as the actors then feel this insecurity showing up with these “societal imperfections.” That's such a delicate dance. Yes, it's so important for us to show up with these things that make us feel insecure and put them on display, if we want to, if that's something that we're passionate about, which I feel is something that I am trying to do more and more of so that others can feel less alone, so that others can feel more seen in their insecurities.

Amy McNabb: Yeah, and one of the catches to it, though, that I have found is kind of like stepping outside the matrix. It's if you decide – I’m just gonna speak to a woman's experience because it's the one I have. I know that men also have eating disorders, and I know that men also struggle with body dysmorphia and it's just in a different way. You know, as a quick aside, when I think of the sitcom trope, it's the woman is hot and the man doesn't have to be as hot, but he does have to be funny. There is kind of an interesting dynamic there to assess, but that's a digress.

But to come back to women, you know, if you decide to be the kind of person who does the work to undo what society has put on us, what the patriarchy has put on us, and what diet culture put on us – as millennials, we grew up reading those magazines that were like, “You could have a body like Britney Spears, just if you don't eat bagels in the morning and you just do 15 minutes of belly dancing.” And, no, these celebrities were on – first of all, the amount of dancing that woman did, just let alone everything else. But that kind of communication really hurt our brains. But if you decide to do the work to come out of that, you are living outside the matrix, and when you get to set, you are going to encounter other women who are not living outside the matrix –

Megan Gill: Yep.

Amy McNabb: – who are very much so inside it, and we're not judging them, but communicating with them is really hard because you might have someone who's inside the matrix who's still hurting. You might have someone who's inside the matrix who's like, “I crush it here. I feel great. I've got the body I want. I'm not worried about it.” But more likely you're gonna run into someone who, you have done the work – I'll speak just for myself.

I have done work to try to intuitively eat rather than panic, right? Or rather than not eat for most of the day, because I don't want to be a burden to someone on set or in the studio, I do the work to bring my food and intuitively eat, right? But then you go to lunch, and another woman had to grab crafty or had to grab McDonald's to eat, and they're beating themselves up for eating McDonald's like, “Ugh, this fattening,” you know, “Oh my god, I'm eating McDonald's,” right? In that moment, you have to simultaneously put your guard up so that you don't fall into the matrix and also, for me, decide, “Do I want to try and help? Do I want to contribute to this conversation and how? You have a couple options. Option number one is you don't say anything. Option number two is you agree with them and just play along in the matrix game. Option number three, you know, which I chose recently was – what did I say? I was like, “Oh, that looks delicious. That looks so good. I'm stoked that you got McDonald's. What a treat, right? That's such a fun thing to get a Happy Meal.” Also what well-named marketing to get a Happy Meal, right. And then the fourth option, which I didn't do because I didn't know the person really well, but another person on set did, they were like, “Hey, remember we don't shame food. You don't have to shame yourself for food.” But that person knew them. They're good friends, so it was a reminder to them. So stuff like that, you do have these options.

But all that to say, when you're trying to unpack this stuff and trying to make it in the world, you have to recognize you are kind of living outside the matrix a bit, and you're gonna interact with people that are still very much so – and men too, right, who are very much so still inside the matrix, and you have to decide do you ignore it, do you participate in it, do you try and teach it, or do you call it out? And it's not easy because your own stuff can get triggered and brought up by it, you know?

Megan Gill: Right, absolutely. It's almost more of an emotional weight to carry than to not only have to worry about ourselves, but to want to help others. Yet at the same time, I think that you put it very beautifully because you have agency and you have the choice to maybe just say nothing or to maybe play along, even though, I mean, I don't love playing along. I never feel comfortable with playing along, but sometimes if that's what you got to do to protect yourself or to care for your nervous system in that moment, then that's what you got to do. And then there are other times where maybe you can chime in like you did. I love that you did that because that stuff is so important too. But at the same time, it's such a delicate, nuanced conversation because it's not our job to do that for other people. Yet, I do think when we feel empowered to do so and when we feel safe to do so, I think it's important if we can do that and can say something, you know?

Amy McNabb: And I was really excited because at the end of that day, that person happened to mention it again and was like, “And it was really good! The McDonald's was really good! And I was like, “Oh, that's so fun to hear, right?

And also I want to be clear too, that the choice to play along – I think when I was younger I probably played along a little bit more, and then now that I'm older, I realize that my voice doesn't have to be heard in every situation. That was something I had to learn was I don't have to contribute to every conversation. So sometimes for me, silence makes the most sense when my nervous system isn't feeling so good, if I'm feeling super safe. That day, I happened to have food that I felt great about and I felt I had prepared, so I was really calm. But let's say it had been a different day where I hadn't eaten anything because I was rushing around and running late and then that happened, and let's say I was also eating McDonald's or something, or eating Burger King or whatever, I might not have been able to participate as much because maybe I would've been a little bit more insecure about whatever.

So in that moment, silence is okay. We don't have to martyr ourselves to, to try and fix the fucking patriarchy. That's not gonna happen. You’ve got to do what's right for you. But it is imp I think it's important as you do work on yourself and the emotions, and this is true for everything, right? You get to decide how you talk to people who maybe are still in the matrix or not.

Megan Gill: I agree fully and just making sure that you're checking in with yourself day to day, because like our bodies change day to day, our mental states, how we relate to our bodies, how we're feeling changes day to day too. So I think it is important to note that it can shift, and we can still be doing good for the things we care about and doing good for other people and fighting the patriarchy slowly but surely, and that's a little bit more sustainable than being like, “Okay, I'm gonna go out into the world today and I'm gonna combat anyone that wants to say anything about blah, blah, blah.”

Amy McNabb: And also, let's be honest, if I were having a bad food day, meaning I felt shitty about whatever I was eating, not what I was eating was bad. But let's say that I was having a bad body day and I was beating myself up at lunch about whatever I was eating, I do not want someone on a fucking soap box. If I'm having a bad food day or a bad body day, and I say something in alignment with that, I don't want someone on a fucking soapbox to come up to me and be like, “By the way…” You know, I don’t need that. So it is important, too, to recognize the moments where you can participate in the moments where you can help and the moments where maybe silence is okay. You’re not anybody's therapist, and you don't have to fix everything.

But yeah, to me, I think it's just important to remember everybody's at a different place in their journey. I've read intuitive eating, and I've done a bunch of work, and I still struggle with my body and I still struggle with food. And sometimes I feel bad, and you know, everybody's issues are different. I no longer feel bad about the food that I eat, but I do feel bad sometimes about the lack of movement in my life, right? And then some people have movement down on lock, meaning they love what they're doing with their body. They feel good about how they're moving it. And I don't really have that yet. So it's not like I figured out intuitive eating and I'm deciding when to tell people. It's just like we're all in progress. And so, recognizing that you're not further along or behind on any journey, you're just on yours, and then you can decide when and how you share that with people I think is the distinction, you know?

Megan Gill: Agreed, and just the recognition that everyone is on their own journey, and you don't necessarily know unless you're close with someone, right? You don't necessarily know what that boundary is or where they're at. So just being careful as well. Like, yes, I love to chime in and be like, “There's another way,” or “That's okay. Let's not villainize the food you're eating. It’s good, it's yummy.” I love doing that stuff, but also I find it a lot easier to do it with the people that I'm closer to. If one of my close friends over here is talking shit about her body or saying something weird about food or whatever, I feel a lot more comfortable to be like, “Hey, I know you. I know we don't have to do that,” you know?

Amy McNabb: Yeah, one of the most impactful things at the beginning of me trying to undo some of the diet culture stuff was actually a friend of mine who was not saying anything about me or my diet culture or what I was doing, but we were out in LA and there was a juice company that had one of those foldable chalkboard signs and it said, “Juice cleanse! Lose X amount of pounds in whatever amount of days.” And she just goes, “That fucking infuriates me.” And I was like, “Whoa, why?” And she was like, “Because it's bullshit. It's peddling diet culture. That's crap. That's not okay.” And we were walking and I thought about it. This had to have been three or four years ago, maybe more. She's actively saying that marketing isn't okay. “That's bullshit. It's a lie also, and it's false advertising. And also why is that what we're trying to give people. What is this?” And I think that her just questioning and rejecting some of the diet culture was really for herself, right? Because I don't think she was trying to teach me anything. She was just saying, for her, “I’m just gonna just call out when I see diet culture and say no,” you know? And even that can happen on menus and stuff, right? Where it's the low fat thing, the healthy thing, healthy choice. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And the healthy choice is not always the lowest calorie choice, you know? So I think that that was really helpful for me too was just someone kind of calling it out first. I was like, “Oh, maybe I don't have to participate in this,” you know?

Megan Gill: The number one thing that comes up for me is being around friends or people or whoever, and you're out to eat and they're like, “I'm not gonna get the fries. I'm gonna get the salad.” It's always fries versus salad fries versus salad. And it's we're villainizing the fries and we're – yeah, fries are always the move. Come on. It's become this thing where I've noticed that it's the fries are the villain, and the angel is the salad. And that's the way that I feel it's related with a lot of people instead of it being, “Oh, today I'm really craving fries,” which is kind of like – I am also familiar with intuitive eating, and I've worked really, really hard to get to a place where I am listening to my body and what it wants on that day, in that moment. And then other days I feel I really want the salad, but not because I'm trying to be “healthy” or I'm trying to have a “cheat day” with the fries. I feel like that's an interesting conversation too.

Amy McNabb: It's funny, it just happened the other day where I had this moment where I went, I was out and I got a burger, and I got a salad on the side instead of tater tots or chips or whatever. And I made that choice because, just in that moment, because by the way, the tater tots at this bar, they're so good. They're my favorite thing. But what I recognized for me was I was like I haven't had a ton of vegetables today, and I will probably feel better if I have vegetables. And also one of the main – this is my logic, just walking you through my logic, right? I was like one of the main ways that we eat burgers here at home when I cook is I just make the burgers and we have a big spinach salad with balsamic, and then I do air-fried sweet potatoes, and it's one of my favorite meals and it's one of my husband's favorite meals.

So what happened was at the bar, I was like, “Oh, I could get tater tots, and I was like, “Oh yeah, I haven't really had a lot of vegetables, and I really like burgers alongside salads. I'm just gonna get the salad today and see if I like their salad,” because I had never had it. I got it. I still got bread, the burger was still on bread, right? We're not damning the carbs. I was just like let me see.

So I get it, and one of the people I was with was like, “Oh, you're being good. You got a salad.”I was I was like, “I'm not really being good. I just, honest to god, wanted a salad. I just kind of wanted it,” and I walked him through what I had thought through, and I was like, “But those tater tots are the bomb. I get those other days. It's just not today.” But it's really challenging when we've been given language that's like, “This is good, this is bad,” when it comes to food, as opposed to – not every choice we make can be intentional. We do not have enough bandwidth to be intentional every single time we make a decision. We make a hundred million decisions a day, a scientific number, okay? But when I think about the fact that it's being asked to be intentional about every bite of food you put in your mouth is asinine. We don't have bandwidth for that in the society that we live in.

So if it's like, “Well, I'm just trying to be intentional about I want more vegetables.” No, in that moment I looked at the menu and I was like, “Oh, I wonder if I'd their salad.” And the thing about trying to do this work and still doing the work and still trying to figure it out is it takes time. It takes time to be like what do I want to eat, and what purpose will this food serve?

We went out for pizza and ice cream last week because I was like I want to celebrate and I want pizza and ice cream. Didn't think twice about the fact that there was no salad. I didn’t give a shit. Now, the flip side of it is, for me, I want to feel good in my body. That changes day to day on what makes me feel good in my body. Sometimes hiking makes me feel good. Sometimes yoga makes me feel good. Sometimes burgers make me feel good. Sometimes salads make me feel good, you know? But I guess just to speak for myself, all I'm trying to do is feel good in my body. I'm not on a soapbox here. There are still parts of my body that I want to change, and honestly, the thing I'm grappling with the most is how do I change my body – roll with me here because it's gonna be hard to communicate. How do I change my body without getting stuck in diet culture, without going backwards to what I grew up with? How do I feel powerful in my body without being hard on my body? How do I feel confident and sexy and beautiful as I am right now and also be okay with changing it? That's the wrestling match that I am in right now. My wrestling match is no longer with salads and fries. But I say all that because I don't want to come on here and talk and be like, you know, some people have read intuitive eating and some people haven't. That's not, you know what I mean?

Megan Gill: Of course, of course.

Amy McNabb: I think everybody has their wrestling match internally. It might be with body, it might not be, but I guess what my point here, I guess, is that everybody is in a wrestling match with something internally in their head. And since this is about body image and stuff, this is the one that I'm currently in, and my goal within these wrestling match matches are actually to just try and take away the intensity of it and let it be more an informed debate, a debate team, right, or a calm conversation with my body, calm conversation with myself, rather than what it used to be as a kid, which was a WWE fucking wrestling match. There's a loud crowd, and there are a bunch of voices, and it is angry and it is aggressive, and it is mad. And if I ate the fries, I was angry.

And so, now I'm trying to just, whatever the conversation is, whatever the fight is, whatever the challenge is, I'm just trying to – personally, the thing I'm on right now is just trying to take away the of intensity of it and maybe just have it be more peaceful and maybe have it be more patient with it and trust that I'm not gonna have an answer today. Does that all make sense?

Megan Gill: That truly makes so much sense to me, and it's something that I – not to speak for a lot of people, a lot of women out here, but it's something that I think a lot of us are battling. And what you just described so beautifully is one of my big questions of how can we feel empowered in this body today and love this body today yet want to change it in various ways, whatever that may be for you, because of course, nobody is out here like, “I love every single thing about my body.” Unfortunately, that's just not the way the world works, and we're all going to want to change something and/or at some point our body's gonna change, and we're gonna want to maybe change it to be this thing that it was before. But putting the focus on our general wellbeing and feeling good in our body, which is something that you kept bringing up that I love, that I think is a huge component of all of this, focusing on feeling good in our body is only gonna give us the space and the time and the energy and the allowance to change those things, or to change those things in a free, peaceful way, like you were saying, instead of in a fight, because I was in that fight as well, and it's almost like the fight has been exchanged for freedom. A lot of what I experience is a lot of freedom, even though there's still a battle, if you will.

Amy McNabb: It's really interesting because they come up in times when, for me, I'm in a new situation. I told you when I met you in person, we were talking about body image stuff. because that's your brand, and we were talking about it, and I get nervous when I meet clients in person for the first time because you've never seen my full body. You know, I'm 4’11”. Most people don't realize that. I have tall girl energy. She's a small girl. The personality is ginormous in person, but I'm short, I'm curvy, you know, I'm gonna look different than I look on Zoom. And so, I expressed that to you and I remember you saying, “Oh my god, that makes me really sad. That makes me upset. I don't like that for you, right? And I've thought about that a lot since then, and I was like, yeah, that is a shitty thought to have. It's a shitty thing to try and navigate.

And what I've tried to come back around to is this other piece of confidence, which I try to circle back to the idea that's like when you try to take a picture of the moon, you just cannot capture what it is like to be standing in real life looking at the moon at that moment. This is not my own idea, this is something that came off of Instagram, I'm sure. But that feeling. I know that I radiate in person and on Zoom, I love my personality. I'm funny, I'm smart, I'm confident in various ways. I'm helpful, and I sparkle. And I also see the sparkle in other people. This is not just to me, right? I've met clients in person too, who I knew on Zoom, and I'm like they do look different in person, and it's never worse. It's always better because it's not on a computer screen, right? And what's cool about that is when you meet someone in another dimension, right – because this is two dimensions, right? When you meet someone in another dimension, you really get to see more of their soul in a lot of ways, right? Because you get to see how it's expressed in their body and you get to see how do they move through the world and how do they interact with the world. Is it fast? Is it slow? Is it jerky? Is it smooth? Is it clumsy? Is it graceful? All of those things are really beautiful parts of all of us.

And so, all that to say, I try to remind myself that, you know what? I do wish I was taller, and you know what? Sometimes I wish I was thinner. Most of the time I wish I was stronger. That's the thing I'd love to work on. And this is the kind of language change for me is I’m like, oh, sometimes I just wish I was more physically capable of some of the things I want to do for longer. If I go on a hike, it can be really challenging. We go to Colorado sometimes, and those hikes are a doozy because I don't do them all the time, know? And I'm all right, so there are things I want my body to do. There are things I want to change, sure. And I can change them if I want to, but also I sparkle. And so, that's what I try to circle back to when I can. And like I said, for anybody reading this or listening to this, you also sparkle. So the best we can kind of do is try to remind ourselves of that when we get really in our head. And that's what I try to do on my harder days.

Megan Gill: That's really, really lovely and just a reminder that sparkles can speak louder than those thoughts about how we're not good enough or how I wish I was this, or I'm worried about this. The sparkle will outshine no matter what. It’s so true. And when people meet you, they see the sparkle. They don’t see all of the things that you are worried about. I feel that's just true in general. In the ways that we think we're always in our head about ourselves and how judging ourselves, but in reality, no one else is judging you the way you are. They're most likely seeing you through this lens of sparkle. So, I love that. Ah.

Amy McNabb: Yeah, and I think too, you know, what I have found for myself and as we kind of come to a close here, I think, what I have seen for myself too is I am in my head thinking about, “Gosh, I wish these pants were looser. I wish they were different. I wish I'd worn a different outfit. I wish I wasn't in bright pink and everyone else is in black and navy blue,” whatever the kind of thing is that I'm thinking about, that is when the sparkle dulls.

Recently, I went to a pool party, and everyone else was in navy blue, black, and jeans. And I was in Barbie Pink and Kelly Green. I was on Love Island, and they were on the Magnolia Network. It was different. And I walked in, and I texted my husband and I was like, “Oh no. I am in bright pink.” And his response, knowing me for so long, and he's so wonderful, was, “Shine, baby, shine.” Because at that point I’m like, well, I’m in neon pink, so there's no escaping that. So you know, and in previous iterations I would've left, and I had a change of clothes in my bag for later that evening that were, you know, sage green and black. And so, I could have changed to fit in with the Magnolia Network, but I was like, “Mm, I guess I'm on Love Island.” The hours that I was there, there was still a little voice in my head saying, “Are you too much? Are you being too much? Should you shift your body language? Should you cover your cleavage?” because I'm in a bathing suit. “Should you, you know, should you.” But I still showed up, and I still sparkled, and I still made a friend. And I will admit, when I left that thing I was like, “Phew, I can breathe again.” But I stayed, and I'm really proud of myself for staying and not bailing, you know?

Megan Gill: I'm so proud of you too, and what a good challenge to be able to take yourself through those mental gymnastics that are so difficult to navigate sometimes.

Amy McNabb: Yeah, if nothing else, I think my thoughts on it are just, “Shine, baby shine.” We are sparkle in various ways, and that doesn't have anything to do with what your body looks like.

Megan Gill: I love that so much. Thank you for sharing that. I have one more question for you before we wrap up, and I know I'm springing this on you. What is your favorite thing about your body, or things about your body?

Amy McNabb: Fun! Oh, what is my favorite? What are my favorite things about my body? I have plenty. I think that bodies have things that they do and then the ways that they look, right? So we've got both.

I think as far as the way they look, I really my face, and I like my hair. I think I'm a pretty girl. And I love my eyes. They're so blue and sometimes they change to gray and green, and it's really fun. I love, on overcast days, my eyes turn a bright, metallic gray and they're really cool. And so I do love my eyes the most, as far as what I look like.

What do I love most about my body in regards to what it can do? I mean, I'm so lucky I have a healthy body. I’ve got little things here and there, but she can move, she can run, she can play, she can sing, she can create. If I had to pick one thing, the fact that I can sing is so cool and it's just not something I learned. Obviously, I've made it better, but this thing makes a cool sound when I want to sing, and it knows what notes to sing. What? That's so fun. it's just you play a note on a piano and I can sing that note. That is magic to me, you know?

Megan Gill: Yes, I know. I'm emotional right now because you're so right.

Amy McNabb: Right? It's so cool. I didn't learn that. I mean, I learned it kind of, but as far as for me, I've been a singer since I was a kid, and it connects me to my mom and my sister, both of whom are singers. So as far as what is my favorite thing about my body, the fact that I can sing. The favorite look, eyes, but I don’t know, the singing is pretty magical, man.

Megan Gill: It is magical. Oh gosh. Thank you for being here with me, Amy, and having this conversation.

Amy McNabb: It was fun. I liked it. I appreciate being here. It's a cool opportunity to step outside the matrix a little bit and observe it and also observe it in a way that's not negative, because it's really easy to be like, “This fucking sucks. It sucks that there's diet culture. It sucks that we are supposed to be thin. It sucks that we're in a time that there's a magic pill, magic shot that'll make you thin,” which for some people is super freeing, which is awesome. But it's a hard time, it’s a hard thing, and it's easy to just damn the torpedoes and just be like, “Everything sucks.” So it's fun to talk about it in a way that's like, “Well, we're all in it together. We're just kind of in different spots of it, but we're all here.”

“  I'm so lucky I have a healthy body. I’ve got little things here and there, but she can move, she can run, she can play, she can sing, she can create. If I had to pick one thing [that I love about my body], the fact that I can sing is so cool. And it's not something I learned. This thing makes a cool sound when I want to sing, and it knows what notes to sing. That's so fun. You play a note on a piano, and I can sing that note. As far as what is my favorite thing about my body, the fact that I can sing the favorite. Singing is pretty magical, man.”

- Amy McNabb

Amy is an LA based Voice Actor and Founder of Actors Encouraged, a space dedicated to supporting ambitious, heart centered actors on their journey to success. As a Mindset + Confidence Coach, she'll transform your roadblocks and big feelings into a map for building your best life and cultivating your happiest career. As a fellow actor, she experiences the high highs and low lows right alongside you, enhancing and informing her coaching.

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While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome my dear friend and fellow actor and model, Chloé Godard, to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Chloé is an actor, hand model, fit model, yoga teacher, and voiceover artist, along with a close friend of mine. From working with her hands on set for companies like Mattel, to fit modeling for shoe companies like Lulu’s, to acting in national commercials and film, Chloé is no stranger to her body parts being in the spotlight.

In our conversation, we touch on so many important topics. Chloé shares how she strives to use inclusive language while leading her yoga classes, the importance of listening to cues from your body so you can properly nourish and move your body, and how we have to reframe what our personal best looks like because our bodies are constantly shifting and evolving from day to day. There’s so much wisdom Chloé shared in our conversation, and I cannot wait for you to listen!

“  I have been thinking about, too, inclusivity for all bodies, and I know there's gonna be so many things that I'll miss, but I've even been thinking about how not everyone has ten fingers and ten toes. So instead of cueing people, and for this example saying, “Stretch your ten fingers out on the mat,” I don't know, I just say, “Stretch your fingers out on the mat.” Some people have trauma with their body, and using trauma-inclusive language, I find that fascinating and I wanna even learn more about that. You could just go on and on how different people's minds are and their bodies and the things that go on with that, but I think we do have to give you ourselves grace and other people grace at the end of the day.”

- Chloé Godard

Chloé Godard: My whole life story through my body. I guess we'll kinda start from the beginning.

Megan Gill: Okay. I love it.

Chloé Godard: I was a dancer. I didn't do sports, so I danced competitively for 10 years with my sister, which was so fun. I guess some people do say dance is a sport, you know? There are two different schools of thought for that, but I loved dance. It was such a fun way to be creative and express myself and use my body. That was probably when I was in middle school to high school, and then that's when I got into more theater and stuff like that.

Then when I went to college, I danced a little bit less, and I was a little bit more in the theatrical realm, and you probably get this too, doing theater in college is a lot of body movement still. I also did stage combat, so I did a lot of training with rapier dagger, knife onstage, physical contact. So looking back, I feel like I have been really in tune with my body and have used it in so many different shapes and forms, constantly using it even though I was not an athlete.

Then when I came to Los Angeles for acting, I stopped dancing and was using yoga as my form of fitness. I've been doing yoga since I was 15, so a long time. And I'm now a certified yoga teacher as of March of this year, 2025. So that's been such a fun journey doing it for so long but now doing it in a different aspect. Then being in Los Angeles trying to support myself acting for so long is when I fell into hand modeling, and I've done a lot of toy commercials, and that has been very fun because I never imagined being a hand model or knowing what a hand model was.

Megan Gill: Knowing that your hands could be such a hot commodity in your career.

Chloé Godard: Yeah! Front and center. So I wanted to play piano when I was younger, but my parents couldn't afford to get me lessons, so I played guitar a little bit, and then my dad would just always compliment my hands. He'd say, “Oh, you have such beautiful thin, long fingers.” So then with hand modeling, that was always just a funny thing. I'd be like, “Oh, well I guess people have noticed my nice hands. So I do feel like they're proportionate to my body. But yeah, it's been fun to see a part of me on screen and also knowing that it's my hand. I'll see certain commercials and I'll be like, “Oh, okay, that's my hand,” or I won't remember a commercial, and I'll look back and I'll say, “Oh yeah, that's my thumb.” Now I feel like I know my hands so well. How often do you look at your body parts and know what they look like, you know? Do you know what your elbow looks like? Can you pick your foot out of a lineup?

Megan Gill: Maybe, honestly. I don't know. I'm kind of weird like that. I like my feet, so I look at them.

Chloé Godard: I’m like, “I could put my hand outta a lineup.” And my wrist is my favorite body part. I love my wrists. They're nice and little, tiny. I like the little bones. I love seeing the little veins on the insides. I'm like, “Oh, I'm alive. That's so nice and beautiful.”

Megan Gill: Blood is pumping through me.

Chloé Godard: Blood is pumping through me.

Megan Gill: And how cool also that your hands, this thing that we almost like – I don't mean to speak for you, but I almost take for granted, or we never look at our hands and we're like, “What a good part of our body.” Well, when I was transcribing, I was maybe praising my hands like, “Wow, you're doing a lot of good work for me,” especially when I started to notice they would get sore and tired and all of that, but what a cool experience to connect so deeply and to have such a strong relationship with this part of your body that not many people probably have a strong relationship with.

Chloé Godard: Yeah! I'm so grateful for my hands, and through yoga I also learned how important your feet are to your body, and just like that is your foundation and how you stand upright and straight. Your foot health is so important. So the more knowledge that I gain and the more experiences that I have, I'm finding that I find a greater appreciation for my body and the things that they can do. Like my feet, like using my hands.

I'm very protective of my hands. Cooking in the kitchen, I love to do. I can't rock climb anymore, getting calluses. I love strength training, so I wear gloves at the gym. So it's really, taking care of your body is something I find really important instead of shaming my body. I think I want to have this healthy body for as long as I can. So like strength and mobility are really important to me and feeding myself, nourishing myself. So I just feel such gratitude for the body that I have and for all the things that I can do, yeah.

Megan Gill: I love that. I think that's such a beautiful reframe too. Instead of expending energy, like you said, shaming your body or the things you don't like about your body or the way your body looks, you're expending energy on. Taking care of these parts that are so integral to your career, to how to your livelihood. And not only that, but I think that's just such an important lesson that I'm looking at that thinking, wow, that's so lovely that being a hand model has kind of – I don't know if it's synonymous with this appreciation you have for caring for these parts of your body so deeply.

But I am even thinking, because I also am. In a yoga practice, myself and my hands and feet are what get me through each of my classes, right? And so, even just having appreciation for, “Wow, these hands and these feet allow me to go to a yoga class and move my body in the way that I enjoy moving my body, and how freaking cool is that?” MaryJane really wants to be a part of this conversation.

Chloé Godard: She’s like, “I love yoga.” Downward facing dogs.

Megan Gill: “I love my paws too!”

Chloé Godard: Oh, MaryJane, you have the cutest paws. Wow, sweet girl.

Megan Gill: But I love that. Something that I really – as someone who, myself, has struggled with a lot of disordered eating habits in my past and who is now coming to this place of having a really, for the most part, pretty healthy relationship with my eating habits and food and the way that I nourish myself, I really appreciate observing you nourish yourself. And I think that you just do it unapologetically and you, from what I can tell, just seem very intuitive and joyful about the ways you're nourishing yourself.

It's very interesting for me, it's like once you see it, you can't unsee it. So I kind of pay attention to these types of things in my friends, not only the language that they use about their bodies and food and exercise, but also their behaviors. And that's something that I really admire in you and I think is so important because so many people put so much focus on it or have a tendency to shame themselves. I just think that that's really lovely and wanted to share that with you.

Chloé Godard: Thank you. Where your mind goes, your energy flows, what is that saying? Something like that. So yeah, I just try to think of what gift can I give myself? So if I wanna go work out in the morning, setting my electrolytes and my coconut water out the night before and like a protein bar or something because I've noticed the more I get attuned to my body and certain rituals, what is a help to me.

Working out first thing in the morning on an empty stomach and really tired, I can't do things that I normally can do, but if I get a good night's sleep, if I have a little something to eat, if I have my water the morning of or night before, then I notice I can hold crow pose longer, or I can lift a little bit heavier weight. So it's just trying to set myself up and talking to myself most of the time in a kind way to help me. Because I wanna be my own best friend, not my worst enemy.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Amen to that right there. That's honestly half the battle, and I think it's so difficult to build that friendship with yourself. I'm having all these conversations, I call them me-to-me conversations where I'm like, “Me-to-me.” But those conversations used to be very negative and very toxic, and it was just shame, shame, shame, beating myself up left and right. Whereas now, they've shifted to a lot friendlier conversations. And I think that that's like such an interesting paradigm shift that I wanna explore more.

And that I hope more people start to explore a little bit more too because I think it's really important to befriend ourselves and that just helps us get one step closer to connecting to our body and being able to listen when you're like, “Oh, I can't hold crow pose because I needed to eat a protein bar before this yoga class,” or whatever it may be. Because if we're so disconnected from our bodies, we can't hear when they're trying to communicate with us, right? Or if we are just shaming our bodies left and right, that creates this disconnect that doesn't allow us to hear what our body, that's so knowledgeable, is trying to tell us.

Chloé Godard: Yeah, be your best self, intuitive. As they say intuitive eating and yeah. I feel like my self-awareness just continues to grow and grow, especially in this yoga teacher training that I just recently took. I was going through the biggest low of my life, and it was so hard being present, which really is what yoga is because your body shifts day to day, how you feel day to day. So your yoga practice (you know, they call it a practice), even if you do the same sequence every day, it's always going to look a little bit different in your body. And being in the moment is so integral, but can be so difficult. Listening to your body is such a fun thing and trusting your body.

Especially doing yoga six times a week in this training was such a fun challenge for myself to find – because you think – oftentimes I'll hear, “Find your edge,” and does your mind immediately go to finding your most difficult edge? Well, there's another edge. It's finding the spot where you can soften and do a little bit less. Can you find that edge to do less or to rest?

So it was fun to have some mornings where I would take a 6:00 AM class and I wouldn't have eaten or taken care of myself. And so I'd say, “You know what? I'm gonna do child's pose instead of doing that downward dog whole flow sequence.” And so, I would get really proud of myself in those moments. I'd be like, “Oh, this is so nice to let myself breathe and be on my mat and just give this rest to my body. Okay, now I feel good. Let's go to the next bit.”

Megan Gill: Oh my god, that makes me emotional because I think something that we as humans just tend to do is like push, push, push ourselves to the limit all of the time that the thought of reeling it back and allowing yourself to really feel into what your body needs that day – this is also a practice, a journey that I am exploring myself as well, so I can very much relate. And it is the coolest thing. And it's just like you're bowing down to your body and you're honoring your body in this way that for me was radical. I had never really done that before. It was always like, “If I'm in the workout class, I'm going balls to the wall.” Yeah, so to like be in that yoga class, or even if you're at Training Mate or you're at the gym or you're running a 10K, whatever it is, really tuning in and being like, “Okay, I need to maybe chill, or I need to just like lay in savasana and call it a day.”

Chloé Godard: Yeah, we're not in the Olympics, so why do we treat that one-hour yoga class like it's the last thing that we are doing?

Megan Gill: Oh, my god, so true because I think we've just been conditioned to show up in these spaces from a place of shaming ourselves, from a place of, “I'm here to burn calories or like I'm here to get a good workout in,” that challenging that way of thinking is so important. It can lead to longevity too, right?

Chloé Godard: Yeah! I was laughing when you said that because when you brought up the 10K I was like, “Oh yeah, I also forgot that I ran my first 10K this year!” Chloé doing the most and talking about doing less.

Yeah, that feeds into a little bit of the fit modeling, which for me, you got me into. So thank you for that. And I bring that into the like light of less because I'm in the body that I'm in, and for fit modeling, which if some people don't know, it’s not fitness modeling. It's kind of like you're essentially, I tell people, the lifesize mannequin trying on the clothes, the moving body. And for that, it's kind of like what your measurements are. A little bit your weight and whatnot, but my shoulder span is my shoulder span, my height is my height. Yes, I can wear heels, but to a certain degree, my bone structure is different than your bone structure. I am petite.

And so, when I first tried to join my first fit modeling agency, I was declined because I was petite. And then, funny enough, I ended up signing with them because they needed a model for a shoe company, and I have, which I learned, the perfect prototype size six shoe, which is not something that I can change. I can't make my foot smaller! I can't realistically make my foot bigger. So I was just like, “Thank you, body.” There's literally nothing I can do. This is just me. That’s cool!

Megan Gill: Right, it's almost like I would not be a hand model. I'm just not gonna be a hand model and I can't change that. I can't control that! So, so true.

Chloé Godard: Yeah, so it's just finding your little weird niche things.

Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. And then I also just think it's so beautiful to note that they, at first, declined you, and then I love that a client came around that was like, “We need this size shoe,” and I love that it was you. Yes, because to an extent, there's gonna be something about you that is needed for whatever it is. Obviously, we are in a very unique industry where our bodies, not only as actors, but in the sense of hand modeling, which is what you do a lot of and fit modeling, which is what we both do a lot of, our bodies are our tool.

Chloé Godard: How amazing and crazy. It's so crazy. If you would've told me when I was younger that I would be doing all of these things, I don't know, my jaw probably would've just dropped to the floor, all of these crazy cool jobs that have everything to do with my body. Whoa.

Megan Gill: Yes, because not only are you an actor, a hand model, a fit model, but you also have recently gotten into voiceover work and recording audiobooks. So your voice is just another part of your body that you cannot change.

Chloé Godard: Yeah, my non-physical part. Yeah, but I mean it uses my lungs, my mouth, my throat. It's something that is very, very fun, but it is also taxing, like working out and other things. I can't just work 24 hours to finish the deadline on a book because my voice gets hoarse. I get tired. You can hear it in your voice. It's kinda like when you call your friend on the phone and the way they answer, you know, and you can tell if they've been crying or if they're upset or they're angry. It's like an embodiment of you without your body, which is so fun. The introvert in me just really loves it.

Megan Gill: Wait, I love that. It's so true because people can tell so much about a person by their voice. Yeah.

Chloé Godard: Think of singers, which is something I could never do, don't ever wanna be. I do not sing, but voiceover, like narrating audiobooks, is so fun to me because I like the storytelling aspect of it. It's the actress in me wanting to come out some more. Just another creative thing to do.

Megan Gill: Yeah, very cool.

Chloé Godard: Yeah, and bring other people's stories to life.

Megan Gill: Yeah, I love it. Through using just another part of your body.

Chloé Godard: Does anybody want my whole body out there? Anyone? Anyone?

Megan Gill: Yes! Hallmark, we're looking at you.

Chloé Godard: Yeah. Put me in a movie somewhere.

Megan Gill: Lifetime?

Chloé Godard: Please.

Megan Gill: I am interested as someone who hand models for these big brands – it's really cool that you work with Mattel and that you work with all of these incredible clients as a hand model. And like you said, if you told your younger self that you were doing this, you wouldn't believe it and you would probably think it's so freaking cool.

I'm curious to hear, as an actor, as someone who's pursuing this art form where we show up as our whole selves, our whole bodies, and we want to be on television and in movies and onstage or in commercials or whatever it is – I know you've done a lot of national commercials yourself – but what is the difference for you using your hands? I guess this does tie back to body in the sense of your hands are the star. But at the same time I'm hearing you talk about how much you take care of your hands and how much you appreciate your hands and love them. I'm just curious to kind of explore this whole, “I want to be acting with my whole body on film, but the work that I'm getting right now and the work that I'm really good at and I know what I'm doing and clients want me for, is just my hands.” What's going on with that for you?

Chloé Godard: I think with the hand modeling, my perfectionism comes out a lot. We often use a probe lens so it gets really up close and personal, especially if the toys are small, because I've done Polly Pocket, and it's, in the past, been very stressful and nerve wracking for me because, I mean, like you said, my hands are the star.

So sometimes if I'm in there and then – everyone I work with on set is amazing, but sometimes the camera guy will be like, “Oh, there's something under your nail. There's a little black speck, “ or you know, I might have a hangnail that I didn't catch, and it immediately can just send me into, “Oh my god, somebody else is gonna get this job. My hands aren't perfect,” constantly just looking at them, making sure I don't get a paper cut. It sounds so silly, but, to me, that's so deadly. But you also use your hands in your everyday life. So it's like I have to live my life. I'm not, unfortunately, making millions of dollars hand modeling, so I still wanna do things, but in the past it has definitely sent me in a negative head space because I want to do such a good job.

And the hand model I was working with on set today, we were talking about kind of how slow work has been due to the climate of everything. And I made a comment like, “Well, my hands are gonna eventually age. I'm probably not gonna be hand modeling for Barbie ten years from now.” I mean, I don't know, so many things could happen between now and then. Maybe the universe will play a joke on me and I will be, but our whole body's age. It's not just your face. So I do think about that a lot. Like, “Oh, like what will my hands look like when they're older?” I look at my mom's hands, and then I think I wanna have kids one day. Can I still hand model when I'm pregnant? Will my hands get chubby? Or will my hands still look the same when I'm pregnant? I guess you can use this kind of like, this is my spiral instead of honing in on what I'm eating and shaming myself for that. Sometimes I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I should have been more careful with my hands. This happened, or I could have done this and this better with the shot. Did my hand look childlike enough?”

Megan Gill: Mm, yeah. Oh, that's so interesting too – talk about …

Chloé Godard: Because I’m doing kids toys. So I've hand modeled jewelry and done nail polish. I did a lot of products and different things, but toys has been my bread and butter, so that's also been a thing too with clients, making sure that my hands are small enough. But I've also had to use that reframe and say, “Chloé, you're fun to work with on set. The people like you. You do a good job.” Kind of the same things that I would probably talk myself through being on set. And I have been. It's not just that I'm the world's best hand model. I like to think it's still all of me.

Megan Gill: Oh, absolutely.

Chloé Godard: I don't even know if that answered your question.

Megan Gill: No, that was even better than where I was trying where I was trying to go.

Chloé Godard: Just the spiral!

Megan Gill: Well, it’s so interesting to talk about this stuff because we all have our thing, right? We each have our thing or things that we spiral about or that we have a hard time with. I know you were cracking this massive egg a couple days ago, and all I could think while you were cracking it was, “Oh my god, her hands.”

Chloé Godard: Okay guys, I was making breakfast with Megan, and I got a goose egg from the farmer's market. That thing is, when I clenched my fist, it was the size of my fist and I was just gonna break it like a normal egg, as she was saying. No, these goose eggs, they have a strong exterior, and if I wasn't a hand model and I didn't care, I probably would've just jammed my thumbs in and pulled it apart. But Megan's laughing because, as I was doing it, I was like, “Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. What do I do? My hands!” Yeah, it's literally everyday things like that that are comical. But I'm like, “Oop!” Or when I wash dishes, I use gloves all the time. I don't use hand sanitizer because it's incredibly drying. It's not rocket science.

Megan Gill: It's also smart because, like you said, this is your way of taking care of yourself and it seems like this is your way of mitigating that spiral for you. Whereas, for me, mitigating the spiral is wearing clothes that are really comfortable to me and like wearing clothes that I like and that I feel good in, so that I'm not suffocating in my pants and feel like I can't breathe and then I'm gonna spiral because I don't feel good in my clothes, you know?

Chloé Godard: We all have our things.

Megan Gill: And it's so fascinating to talk about it. Like I always say, everyone has a body image story, and it doesn't even have to necessarily relate to diet culture, per se. It’s so fascinating to hear what each person's thing is, or even just with aging and with fashion and all of that stuff.

Chloé Godard: Even talking to you about it now, I'm just now realizing (it's so funny) how being petite has been such a thing in my life. We were even joking about this the other night. I was like, “Any guy is taller than me.” You know, dating for me is easy because every man is taller. I always say in my selftapes, “I'm perfectly pint-sized at five-foot-two. I'm short. When I was a dancer, I'd always be in the front because I was shorter. Being petite for fit modeling. I'm not going to hand model an iPhone because those are huge and my hands are small, so I'm doing toy commercials. Even for yoga stuff, my body just moves different in space because it's smaller. I'm definitely more torso than legs. When I danced, my tutus were always slightly uncomfortable because I was just like, I am more torso space and less leg space.

Megan Gill: Which is so interesting because I'm more leg, less torso. And then I also had someone recently in one of my yoga classes – this woman was practicing next to me, and at the end of the class, she was like, “Wow, like you're so flexible. I could never do that. I could never be as flexible as you.” And I had to stop her and almost reframe it for her and be like, “Okay, thank you. A) I've been dancing my whole life, which is why I maybe am as flexible as I am. Just as a precursor. Heads up. This didn't just happen overnight, and B) each of our bodies has their own thing. Each of our bodies, like you said, move in space in their own unique way, and they can rotate in different ways, and we can each do our own thing, and it's so fascinating because I think we do play this game of like, grass is greener, or you see someone else doing something and it's like, “Whoa, that's so awesome. I can't do that.” And you want that, you want to do that, but really your body can do this other cool thing over here.

Chloé Godard: Exactly. Or it's nice to be able to aspire to do different things. Sometimes I get inspired by people in the yoga class and I'm like, “Oh, I've never seen this variation. I wanna try that!” Or I know my body, and I'm looking at someone doing a pose and I say, “My body doesn't work that way, but that is so beautiful that you can do that. I'll do something else.”

I've been so overthinking teaching yoga now, since now I'm not only the student, but also the teacher. And I have been thinking about, too, inclusivity for all bodies, and I know there's gonna be so many things that I'll miss, but I've even been thinking about how not everyone has ten fingers and ten toes. So instead of cueing people, and for this example saying, “Stretch your ten fingers out on the mat,” I don't know, I just say, “Stretch your fingers out on the mat.” Some people have trauma with their body, and using trauma-inclusive language, I find that fascinating and I wanna even learn more about that. You could just go on and on how different people's minds are and their bodies and the things that go on with that, but I think we do have to give you ourselves grace and other people grace at the end of the day.

Megan Gill: I was thinking that as you mentioned there's so much to learn, because I think that like we never reach this point of we are perfect. We are leading a yoga space perfectly, or we're showing up in front of the mirror with our own bodies perfectly. Like, no, it doesn't work like that, unfortunately or fortunately. Maybe I shouldn't say unfortunately. It's kind of lovely and beautiful that it's an ever-evolving process of just giving ourselves grace and learning and evolving and trying to do better, trying to be kinder to ourselves, trying to lead a room better, trying to show up in whatever space you're in just being a kind person, trying to learn, trying to be better.

Chloé Godard: It's never gonna be perfect, which is what I'm learning. Like in my acting, I can try to reenact the same scene the same way over and over, and you know, you can't do that. Just like I said, your yoga practice will never be the same between day to day. Just like I was even learning in my running training days that you run less mileage or slower is still helpful to the end goal because it's helping you build the stamina, and then there's progression. It's not just every day you run one more mile. That would also be crazy, I think, but I'm not a running pro.

But anyways, yeah, it's just learning. And I think just the reframe that we keep saying like, okay, that maybe didn't feel like my best, but I did it, I showed up. I think that's the most important thing, and I still am learning that as the perfectionist. I can't just call into set and say, “I don't feel like hand modeling today. My hand is tired.” I go and I pull through. I'm not saying if you're not feeling your best to still push through the crazy workout, but what is your edge of less challenge? There are two sides to the coin.

Megan Gill: I'm obsessed with that. It's that we can still show up not at 100% and not at our peak best performance and still have impact and still do good things and do good work.

Chloé Godard: You can still learn from that.

Megan Gill: Yeah. I think that's such an important lesson, honestly. I'm so glad that you brought this up today and highlighted that.

Chloé Godard: Thank you little, petite brain of mine. I wonder if my brain is taller than other people's brains?

Megan Gill: I know that my head. Is bigger because like only the 47 hats at my head. Any women's hats don't fit my head. Oh, I also have a lot of hair, but I don't know that my brain’s bigger. That’s so silly.

Chloé Godard: Y'all, Megan and I send each other voice memos like it is our day jobs. And since talking about wanting to be on your podcast, we've had so many chats, like, “Don't forget to talk about this. Don't forget to talk about this.” But I feel like it's gonna have to be in a part two!

Megan Gill: Agreed.

Chloé Godard: Stay tuned!

Megan Gill: We're gonna have to bring her back

Chloé Godard: Please!

Megan Gill: Well, thank you, Chloé! I'm really glad that we had this conversation, and I am just grateful for you.

Chloé Godard: Thank you, Megan and Mary Jane!

“  Working out first thing in the morning on an empty stomach and really tired, I can't do things that I normally can do. But if I get a good night's sleep, if I have a little something to eat, if I have my water the morning of or night before, then I notice I can hold crow pose longer, or I can lift a little bit heavier weight. So it's just trying to set myself up and talking to myself most of the time in a kind way to help me. Because I want to be my own best friend, not my worst enemy.”

- Chloé Godard

Chloé Godard is more than the industry standard triple threat. She is an actress, hand model, fit model, audiobook narrator, yoga teacher, runner and a soon-to-be (self proclaimed) tennis star. She's a dreamer.

Chloé has acted in more than 10 National commercials, award-winning indie films, music videos, and isn't showing signs of stopping. (Bond girl is next on her list.) Most days, you can find Chloé grabbing a cappuccino from a local coffee shop, booking her next flight, and enjoying life with the people she loves.

Follow Chloé on Instagram

Take Chloé’s yoga class at Shakti Power Yoga in Nashville

Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you!

While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome my new friend, Health and PE educator, as well as the founder of Pretty Little Lifters, Tiffany Ragozzino to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Tiffany and I were connected by a mutual friend who I recently shared a conversation with (hi Maddie McGuire!) because of our shared passion for dismantling diet culture and leaning into strength and wellness.

Tiffany is battling a social media driven world in her classroom to remind her TikTok-loving students the importance of having physical strength and general wellness, and she leads by example. Her stories of conversations she’s had with students and the ways in which she’s working to even educate their parents when she has the opportunity gives me hope for our future generations when it comes to helping them to foster a healthy self-image.

I walked way from our conversation feeling empowered as heck, and I hope you feel the same! Please check out The Pretty Little Lifters podcast and follow Tiffany to stay updated with the incredible work she’s doing!

“ We do a lot of weightlifting, we also do Pilates too. We're well-rounded; we're balanced. But sometimes I'll hear them say, “Oh, I just want to do Pilates.” And when I hear it and I'm like, “That's great for muscular endurance, but what are we gonna do for muscular strength? This is what we're doing for muscular strength.” I'm constantly course-correcting. I'm trying to teach them, “This is long-term health and fitness. That's what I want for you. So I'm not gonna do any quick fixes because that doesn't go with what I'm teaching you.” So it's almost a little bit more of an accountability, I guess you could say. It helps me really practice what I preach. The information that I'm sharing with them, I really do want it to be aligned because I do feel like they will find me more authentic when they see me also living my truth and doing the things I teach them.”

- Tiffany Ragozzino

Megan Gill: Would you want to start by diving into a little bit of your own body image story, your body image journey, and kind of what led you to your work today?

Tiffany Ragozzino: So it's so funny you asked this question because I was recently talking to a friend about body image, especially since I work with teenagers and I teach PE and health, and we were sharing our stories. It's interesting navigating – I'm a millennial, so I grew up during those primitive Y2K moments. When I was a teenager, just getting all of those stories of being skinny and how nothing tastes as good as skinny feels. That was a wild time to grow up when the celebrities gracing the covers of magazines were extremely thin. A lot of them had eating disorders, and that's what we were used to. That was the expectation.

I've always been on the thinner side, so I kind of fit into that socially-acceptable body. And it was really interesting because when I started wanting to do weightlifting, a lot of people were like, “Oh my gosh, don't get too big. Don't get too manly. Don't get too big,” and I was like – and I was just excited to do really cool stuff. I was just like, “Wait a minute, I want to do really cool things with my body!”

Megan Gill: Yeah, “I want to lift some heavy shit out here! I want to be strong!” Yeah.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Exactly. So it was very interesting, and you know what's funny? I think when I started doing a lot of things with street training, it was the first time that sometimes like being on the thinner side or lean didn't always work to my advantage because I remember there was this one photo shoot I wanted to do and participate in, and the person whose gym it was was like – and he didn't say it directly to me, but I kind of heard through the grapevine where it's like, “Oh, she's a little too thin. We want somebody muscular,” and I was like, “Okay, is this where we're shifting to?” But I kind of wasn't mad at it, you know what I mean? I was like, “That's cool. This guy wants to show strong women. He wants to show a different body type and not maybe more of my typical body type that you see already.” So it was actually a really cool experience to be on the other side of that.

Megan Gill: Yeah, it kind of shook up your world a little bit? In a world where we always have known where the ideal is, “How small can we be?

Tiffany Ragozzino: Exactly.

Megan Gill: For then someone to come in and be like, “No, actually, maybe we want someone a little bit thicker or with a little bit more muscle,” or whatever it may be. Yeah, I could see how that's such a wild concept.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, exactly.

Megan Gill: But also it’s so important to reflect all types of bodies, right? Not that your body isn't needed, but just having a diverse range of different body types.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, exactly. And this was, you know, in the earlier 2000s still. So it was kind of cool to hear something like that because you didn't get to see that very much.

Megan Gill: Right. Totally. I'm also a millennial, so I feel you.

Tiffany Ragozzino: So you get it.

Megan Gill: I get it, right there with you.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah. So it was definitely an interesting transition. And what's funny too is when I did start strength training, that shift that I had even in the beginning, because at first it was really like aesthetic, you know? It was just like, “Okay, I want a six pack. I want to see my muscles. I want to be so lean” And then there was a shift when I really started getting into Olympic lifting, gymnastics training, more like CrossFit stuff, I was like, “Wait, I need to be really fed. I need to be fueled. I need to be strong to be able to keep up with all these really cool athletes and figure out how my body can move in a different way.” And it's interesting because that even came with its own – body image is so weird. It's so weird because you go from one extreme to the other.

So then there I was in this new arena of like, “I want to be strong like them. I want those muscles. I want this,” and then it was just like a whole different fixation of being strong and having that six pack and not being so just thin and skinny. I just feel like that pendulum has just kind of swung back and forth, and it was really healthy to step away from aesthetics a little bit and really focus on what I can do. But it is kind of interesting to just always see that pendulum swinging a little bit.

Megan Gill: Like societally, you mean, or for yourself?

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah. Yeah, I think societally because, unfortunately, as we've seen throughout history, women's bodies are trends, unfortunately, you know? And so, I don’t know if you remember when booties were in, and then everyone was like, “Okay, we're gonna squat, we're gonna hip thrust, we're gonna do this.” And you can see the reflection in fitness, in types of movements people are doing, in the way we dress. So it's really interesting to kind of try to separate yourself from that. But as a society, it's really hard to, you know?

Megan Gill: Right. Of course, of course. Especially in this time where everybody keeps using this phrase, and I'm like, okay, I get it. It's like, “Thin is in.” Like, “Thin is back.” The early two thousands are back, and it is very true because in the way celebrities now, these people that have access and have money, have access to like these other tools to alter their bodies, or just easier access, I would say. It is quite clear, I keep seeing – and I try not to judge also, but I can see that people are not wrong. Thin is very much around us right now, and a lot of people want that. That's the ideal again which does suck because strong is so important.

I'm curious also because, as someone who – I mean, I grew up dancing. I've been pretty active my whole life. I’m deep into a hot yoga practice myself right now.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Ooh, I love hot yoga

Megan Gill: Oh, it's been so, so good for me. Mentally, I feel like I've never been stronger. I actually have triceps, and I've never really been able to feel a tricep in there before, so it's really cool. Like, “Wow.” I feel really, really strong and really mentally well, and I have a really great relationship with my movement practice. It's taken me a long time to get here.

When “thin is in,” – I'm just using that phrase as like a general way that we're trending right now, societally, as far as body goes, in my eyes, I think it takes the focus off of strength of general wellness and off of building that muscle so that we can age and be able to walk and move and have that strength and flexibility and mobility still. That's really important. For me, it's really important. I look at my parents, and I want them to be strong as they age. I understand how vital that is. So I'm just curious to hear your take on that.

Tiffany Ragozzino: It's crazy. I don't know if you're on TikTok, but like the rise on SkinnyTok has been interesting, to say the least. And it's weird. So I started teaching at the school. I work at an all-girls school, which is amazing. It's the ideal population that I want to work with. So getting to talk about these topics with my girls, with my high school students is so important. But I started working there in 2018. It is now 2025. And like I said, that shift that I've seen in these seven years, I saw it.

When I started, it was very like girl power, we're gonna be strong, diversity representation, body diversity. All of that was really present, and I was bringing a lot of that into my curriculum, and I still continue to do that, but at the same time, the world around us was also really promoting that, right? It was everywhere. Brands were getting on board. And yes, was some of it performative? Now we know, yes. But it wasn't just me. Collectively, a lot of people in the health and fitness industry were on board, but now we're in 2025, and I am seeing the decline.

So I feel like, as a health teacher and PE teacher, I've had to work a little bit of overtime because now that it's swinging back the other way to this whole, you know, SkinnyTok situation, I have students – I now hear different things that I didn't quite hear as much during the building phase of my program with my students. And now I'm hearing things about, like, “Snatched waist, calories this,” just very much more like diet culture stuff where I worked so hard to deconstruct that for them and teach them. But because society is now latching onto this other piece, it's like, “Wait a minute, y'all are making my job harder! What's going on?” And also making sure I'm aware of the content that's being put out there, like I mentioned, things on SkinnyTok. It is a hard place, and I know teenagers are on there. They're seeing this. They're navigating this. The rise of like Pilates being more popular, for example.

We do a lot of weightlifting. We also do Pilates too. We do everything, right? We're well-rounded. We're balanced. But sometimes I will hear little things and I'll hear them say like, “Oh, I just want to do Pilates.” And when I hear it I'm like, “That's great for muscular endurance, but what are we gonna do for muscular strength? This is what we're doing for muscular strength.” So I'm constantly course correcting and really trying to teach them because they're hearing certain things that they hear on social media. You are seeing that shift to the softer things, people want to get thinner. It has been a very interesting thing to navigate, and this is when it comes back to education, and those of us that have the education, we understand the science and the basics and stuff that need to happen so that we can avoid these up and down trends, you know?

Megan Gill: Yeah, and try to cultivate a safe space for your students, the students that you're impacting, which I'm grateful that they have you. Thank god they have you, oh, my gosh and not someone who is feeding into all of the BS going on in the world right now. But yeah, really being able to cultivate that safe space and be a trusted educator that can help show them, “No, we don't have to do it that way,” because I think, right now, it’s very reflective of the age in which I grew up in, which we grew up in being millennials, generally speaking, where we are getting so many signals from the outside world and from media – and obviously now social media is just such a huge thing. It's a lot more than MTV and Seventeen mag.

But how important and beautiful and necessary to have that space where you can hopefully make a bigger impact on these young girls, young women and break them out of what I think I very much got stuck in myself as a young high schooler, early-college student. I didn't have someone like that. I'm so glad that you are doing this and that you are truly educating. How many girls do you teach?

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, so I have a lot of students. So every year I have about, it depends, anywhere from 100+. This year I had, like, 90 health students, and I had about, like, 100 PE students, 100 health students. So yeah, it's a lot.

Megan Gill: That's incredible, yeah.

Tiffany Ragozzino: But it's great because I can reach more people and that's kind of why I wanted to move to high school because I knew I would be able to reach more people.

Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. And at such a pivotal age okay, they've learned so much, and now it's like make or break kind of, at least from like my experience. I was really, really impressionable at that time. That's amazing, and you are in Los Angeles, is that corect?

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yes, I am here in Los Angeles, specifically West Hollywood, and I work closer to the downtown area. So it's great because we have such a diverse community - you know, different ethnicities, different socioeconomic statuses. So it's really great to be able to, you know, cover a lot of bases.

It's interesting though, because the parents of these students, like the age range would be probably like Gen X, I want to say, is probably the age range. And so, they also kind of dealt with a lot of that stuff too. And a lot of them didn't have anybody to learn it from too. So I even find that sometimes educating the parents is also half the battle, right, and teaching them, because if nobody ever taught them, if they didn't get into social media and start learning from other people kind of doing this kind of work, they are not really gonna know this too.

So the parents are very supportive, they're very excited about the program and the content that I teach. But it is sometimes interesting. You will hear little old-school ways of thinking sometimes when it comes to this kind of stuff and diet culture because they just didn't learn it. We didn't learn this in school, you know? We were fed very different things.

Megan Gill: Yeah, oh, it's so true. But also, how wonderful is that, that not only are you impacting these young women but then also their moms? Oh, my gosh. It makes me emotional.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, it's really nice. And just even getting to teach my mom some things that I learn. That's definitely a different generation that she's in. So yeah, it's really important. And that's one of my hopes is that more educators really modernize their programs to include, you know, topics like this.

And also one thing that I think people forget in the health and fitness space is that everyone has their target audience, and that's valid, right? But social media is very accessible to everyone, and teens are on there, and they're watching. So anytime I see misinformation or just fearmongering or anything like that, I'm like, “Can we not?” Because there's just so many impressionable and uneducated people, and I don't want to say uneducated in a bad way. It's just like we did not learn this stuff. So it's not an intelligence thing. It's just a lack of knowledge.

Megan Gill: Right, a lack of like accessibility this way of approaching health and fitness, which was very much not a widespread thing, not a thing that was really spoken about too much when we were younger. Oh, my gosh.

Does working with these young women help you connect to your own body and body image story?

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, Yes.

Megan Gill: I’m curious to hear more about the tie between all of that, yeah.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, it's so funny that you asked this because I really think working with this population of teen girls has, one, made me a better teacher and coach, but as you mentioned, also help me kind of put my ego aside and kind of check myself and some of my internal biases and things that I think and really unpack, like, “Where is that thought coming from?” When you start working with teens, especially because you've been there before and it's almost like I'm thinking about my teenage self, and I just want to give her a hug, you know? And I think about what I was thinking, what was I insecure about, where was my brain, what were the challenges? So I understand what these kids – I can put myself in their shoes. And then sometimes when I get too wrapped up in adult world and I'm like not thinking about it, sometimes hearing them say something, sometimes I want to course correct and be like, “No, don't think that!” you know, or like, “This is wrong!” But I'm like, “Wait a minute, I get it. I understand what you're trying to say. I understand why you feel this pressure.”

And so, sometimes it's like everyone's gonna find their own way. But it's definitely helped me connect to also, you know, putting less pressure on myself, on aesthetics, you know, and being someone who is in the health and fitness industry, obviously, that is kind of a piece of it sometimes. Anybody would be lying if they said it wasn't. I've done fitness modeling, I've done different things, and, yes, aesthetics is always a piece of it. But it does help me really focus on the long run. And I'm trying to teach them, “This is long-term health and fitness. That's what I want for you. So I'm not gonna do any quick-fixes because that doesn't go with what I'm teaching you.”

So it's almost like a little bit more of like an accountability, I guess you could say, and helps me really practice what I preach and the information that I'm sharing with them and making sure – I really do want it to be aligned because I do feel like they will find me more authentic when they see me also living my truth and like living – I do the things I teach them, and I think that makes a big difference, and they see that. Kids are smart. They can see through it. They know when somebody's teaching something and they don't even care about it. So I think my students know I'm passionate about it, and like I do the things I teach them. This is not just me reading something to them. It's like no, they know she does the things

Megan Gill: Yeah, and that you're like a walking, breathing, living example of a leader that is showing them what it can look like down the road for them, whih I think is also super important. You, I can imagine, are just probably such a role model, whether you know that or not, for so many of these young women. I’m like, “Yeah!”

Tiffany Ragozzino: It's a cool job!

Megan Gill: Also to practicing what you preach, I find even for myself now that I'm having more public conversations and just being more vocal on my social media and even in my friend groups and with the people around me, the practice what you preach thing, I've found myself like having moments of, “Whoa, okay.” Or I'll laugh at something or someone says something, and it's like once you see it, you can't unsee it with all of this like diet culture, beauty culture, body image stuff. And it's just such an interesting self-exploration to go down that journey of like, “Okay, how am I really gonna live truly as an example of what I want to see in the world and how I want to see other women and other people caring for their bodies and caring for themselves, mentally and physically.”

Tiffany Ragozzino: Totally.

Megan Gill: It’s funny because some of my friends will be like, “Ope!” They'll say something, they'll make a comment usually about their own bodies, and then they'll look at me like, “Body image police!” And I'm like, “Yeah! Good!”

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yes! I'm gonna hold you accountable! I'm gonna hold you accountable, yes!

Megan Gill: Yeah, and hold myself accountable in turn like you were saying too, yeah.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Mm-hmm. And just like you said, I would do that if I heard my students say something negative about themselves or their body. I would probably clap back and be like, “Excuse me! No, no!” and give them something positive or hype them up a different way that has nothing to do with how they look. I'm still human, and sometimes I will catch myself or my husband will hear me say something negative about myself and I'm like, “Stop, Tiffany!” Like. “No, no! You wouldn't let your kids do this, you wouldn't let your students do this, so no, we're not gonna do that. Slow your roll,” you know, things like that.

It's made me more aware of that and just made me very conscious of the things I say, the way I show up on social media, the things I post. It's made me very mindful because there's just so much content out there that I want to make sure that this is a safe, accurate, educational, entertaining space but showing up in a way that feels really good.

And here's the thing too, these kids are smart. A lot of them are on social media, and they find my account. My account is public. And so, that's kind of how I see it. I was like, I want to make sure if they see something, that's me, and I’d feel proud, and I would stand by that statement or post or whatever I was wearing, I would feel good about that. So I definitely think that's like an important piece to me to be able to show up authentically and be proud of them seeing it. Also, because I know some of them watch, I'll post educational things where I'm like, “I want them to know this.”

Megan Gill: Yeah, you’re like, Lowkey, you all need this.”

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah! Like, “Okay, can we learn this? You should know this. We talked about it in class.”

Megan Gill: Yeah. Also, you're doing, in a sense, the counter-work to all of the other accounts out there and the people posting misinformation. To me, I’m like, ugh, it's such a heavy weight to carry. But also, you're not doing it alone. There are other accounts out there. There are the good ones out there. I know. I follow so many of them.

I find myself thinking like, “Why me? Why am I qualified to talk about this? Why am I qualified to have these body image conversations?” And it's like, whoa, whoa, okay, okay. Just because so many other people are doing it is actually amazing. It’s actually incredible because the more people that are talking about this and debunking this stuff and fighting back at diet culture and breaking down industry and all of these beauty standards and all of this stuff, the better, the more the conversation continues at a broader level.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah. Definitely. And it's funny because obviously I know that you're a dancer, so you probably can identify with this. But I remember I had a student years ago, I think it was like my first year there. So they've, you know, probably graduated. Yeah, they've graduated by now. And they were a dancer, and I had them for PE. And she was a beautiful dancer. She was a ballerina. And she came up to me, and she was just like, “Miss, how can I make my calves smaller?” And I was like, “What do you mean?” And she was this beautiful dancer with dancer calves, and she's like, “My dad said my calves are too big.” And I was like – literally my heart sank into my stomach, and I was just like. Okay, Tiffany, what are you gonna say? How are you gonna respond? Because internally I wanted to go educate the dad, you know, and be like, “Hey, can I teach you something?”

Megan Gill: Yeah, “Can I teach you five things?”

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, and I was just like, “Hey, you know, you are a ballerina. You do a lot of movements that are going to require you to be up on your toes, and you are flexing your calves. You need those calves! Those calves allow you to be that dancer that you are on stage! So we don't want to make them smaller. They are fine the way they are, and you need them, so you should be so gratefu, and let's appreciate those calves!” And she smiled and stuff, but it's things like that.

And I know you're a dancer, and it goes back to that education and having these conversations with adults too. So I know sometimes parents follow me too, and I'm like, “Please do!” Listen to what I'm saying. Let me teach you something!”

Megan Gill: Yeah. Heck yeah. That's also really cool. Is it like a, “Ah!” moment when a parent follows you? Not in a weird way, just in like a, “This is amazing.”

Tiffany Ragozzino: Honestly , it's so funny because especially with profile names and pictures, you can't really tell who's who. So I don't really know unless they tell me. So sometimes I'll be at open house, and a parent will be like, “Oh, I follow your page. I think it's so great!” And that makes me so happy, because I used to teach elementary school before I became PE and health, and I still had – you know, I was running The Pretty Little Lifters and everything, but I felt like I had to keep my worlds very separate, so I would never talk about my fitness content in education. And then finally when I switched to PE and health, I was like, “I think I can talk about it, and I can talk about how I'm a PE teacher and this and that,” and it all kind of connected in a really good way.

Megan Gill: Oh, that's amazing. That feels like true alignment. I think what I'm out here cultivating for myself too is like, yeah, it all can go, it all can fit together. It all belongs together So that's really cool to hear. I love that. Yeah, oh, gosh. The dancer calves.

Tiffany Ragozzino: I know, you probably have so many stories.

Megan Gill: That just hits deep because my brain is thinking, well, everybody has different calves, right? All of our calves are different sizes, just like all of our hands are different sizes. I think that that's a rabbit hole I've been going down lately just remembering that we are all so different, and it's so unfair to sit here, myself, and look at the person next to me and judge myself based off of that.

And then also just like bringing it back to strength too, which I feel like is your bread and butter, like, “You need those calves in order to execute the movements that you do.” I do think that is the important piece in all of it. When I'm in a bad body image day or in a spiral about something about my body, bringing it back to, “Whoa, this body carries me through life. Like you, I snap myself out of it. What is good about our body? What is good about this body part that I'm talking shit on right now?

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yes, exactly.

Megan Gill: What does it functionally do for us in the world, you know?

Tiffany Ragozzino: And I think that does help you, when you really go back to the function and what you can do, it really can snap you out of it and give you a little bit of gratitude.

I think, recently, I saw a photo of myself from – I was somewhere with my family. Oh, I think we went to like Medevil Times or something, and they do like a group photo, and it was very cute. We did this cute little group photo, and when I got the picture, I remember seeing my arm, and it just looked really – I couldn't see my muscles. It just kind of looked like a blob there, and instantly I could feel that inside, I wanted to be like, “Ugh, my arm! There's no definition. I can't see my muscles.” And I was just like, “Tiffany, it's okay. You're human. And this is years of conditioning that you are trying to reprogram.” And I literally was like, kind of like you mentioned, I told myself, “You can do a lot of pushups with those arms, so you need to chill. You need to chill. Everything's fine. This isn't the end of the world. You're fine.”

Megan Gill: Yeah, totally. And then the other piece of that too is the ways in which we carry our bodies can determine how they look in the mirror, on camera, in a picture, which is just the whole other concept that I think is a little bit like, “Oh yeah, well of course.” But I always have to remind myself of that. There are just so many factors, so many factors that go into this that it's so sad and so unfortunate that we are so susceptible to the way they make us feel.

Tiffany Ragozzino: There's a lot of us having these conversations and doing this kind of work, and as you mentioned, we're also working on it. Nobody's immune to it. I feel like even when they say they are, there's always just this little piece that we just – we're human and there's society and pressures, especially on women. So it's like we're not immune to it, you know? And just like everyone else, me talking about it and having these conversations, it helps me remember too because it's so easy to slip back into those thoughts. It's super easy to slip back into those thoughts. They don't go away. You just get better at managing them and flipping that switch a little bit faster, you know?

Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, yes. Mic drop. That's so true. I'm really grateful that I've found myself in this type of work and down this particular journey of body image because I think it's really, really helped me more than anything. I can only hope that like someone out there in the void is like lis tening and reading and, you know? I know someone’s out there with me. Maddie's out there with me. Hey Maddie!

But you know, I'm like, wow, at the end of the day, ultimately, this journey has been so, so healing for me to just pull me out of this cycle that I was stuck in for so many years and for so long. And I'm really proud of sticking to that because I think it's also, for me, it was 2020 during the pandemic when I started to really, really look at why I felt the way I did about my body and my changing body and food and exercise and all of it. I really started to take a really objective view at what was going on and kind of break down some of the stuff and start to go on that journey in therapy and with myself and by creating art around it and by talking about it. It is so important, and I think it also is important for the people – of course, like you said, no one is fully, “I’m healed!” No one out there, even like you said, if they say they are, they're not. But it's so important for us who are still working day in, day out, to practice what we preach, to be leading in these spaces, and to be having conversations like this and to be speaking up about this stuff because it's like, yeah, this is work for the rest of our lives. And it really, really, really does get easier, and it does get more fun the more you talk about it and the more your friends start to side-eye you and they start to talk shit about their bodies.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yes. No, it's so true. And the thing is – and I was talking about this with my students the other day. I was like, “Our bodies are meant to change. They're not supposed to look the same.” And we had this conversation about – I told them, “You know, you're in high school right now. This is your high school body. It's okay that it changes when you get to college. It's okay that it changes post-college. It's going to just keep changing. That's what happens to our bodies.” And I think sometimes we get stuck in these thoughts that we're going to be the same or be able to maintain something forever.

I'm gonna turn 42 this summer, and it has been interesting. When I turned 40, there was just this weird switch that went off in my body where it's like, “Hey, we're gonna shake things up for you. We are gonna change a little bit. Your body composition is just gonna shift, and you didn't change your habits, but we're just gonna shake things up.” And I was like, “What is this? What is happening right now?” And that took, and is still taking, a lot of mental gymnastics to try to recognize that like, okay, I'm getting into a different phase of my life, of my age, of my journey, where it's like I'm not the same as I was when I was 30. I'm 40 now, and now my body wants to hold onto body fat more. That's new! That's different, right? And it takes a lot of work. So it's almost like the goalpost is almost moving.

I've definitely realized like, oh yeah, if you're hung up on aesthetics, that makes things really, really hard as you age.

Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Instead of bringing it back to, like you said, long-term health, like the longevity of being able to have muscles throughout the rest of your life and to focus on flexibility and general strength and general health, which I also think is kind of a radical concept for millennials who in this, like, you're-gonna-clean-your-plate era and this like – my parents didn't go to the gym. They were physically active out in the yard and we were an active family, but they were not like going to Pilates.

Tiffany Ragozzino: No. You know, it's so funny that you mentioned something about cleaning your plate because I have vivid memories of being a kid, and I could not leave the dinner table until I finished all of my food. And I remember thinking, “I'm full. I don't want to eat anymore. I'm good.” And I had this conversation also with my students and we talked about intuitive eating, and I mentioned exactly what you said and I was like, “Yeah, I remember being little and people being like, ‘You have to finish your food.’”

And the other day I was eating dinner and I served myself a good portion, and I'm eating, and I got to a point where like I'm good. I don't want to finish. I don't need to finish. I don't want to feel extremely full. And I just stopped, and I had this flashback to, interesting, like my body is being intuitive right now and it's telling me, “Hey, you're good. You don't have to finish this. We feel really good right now.” I was content, I was satisfied, and I know if I would've finished it, I probably would've been like, “Ugh,” and just not feeling too great. So it was just really interesting to think allowing ourselves to really tap into our bodies and listen to ourselves and not follow these arbitrary rules that maybe we've always heard, you know?

Megan Gill: Oh, yes, absolutely. And the rules that then taught us to disconnect from our bodies. I think that the journey I'm on right now is like coming back home to myself and connecting and really, really feeling into that because same. I was taught the same thing. And then my mom would tell stories like, “Well, when I was a kid, I would shove the peas in my mouth and then go to the bathroom and then get rid of them.”

Tiffany Ragozzino: That is so funny.

Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh. So it's interesting also because I feel like we are really breaking the cycle, whereas our parents were kind of like, “Okay, well, we want to do it differently than our parents.” But they did very much uphold, I think, a lot of weird teaching us to not be connected to our realizing it.

I was listening to a podcast episode this past week, and it was kind of about intuitive eating in a sense, and connecting to your body and listening to your body. She was talking about the way that she works through her intuitive eating now is when she is eating, she remembers that feeling when she felt too full and felt sick, when you overdo it and you're like, “Oh, I don't feel good.” And she kinda lives in that and is like, “Yeah, I don't want to feel that.” And I really connected with that because, for me, a good marker has always been Thanksgiving, right? Obviously. And for ever and ever in a day, I overdid it, overdid it, overdid it. And as of more recently, I have been more and more connected to my body and just also very intuitively eating, which has been very, very cool and lovely. And I think that's it. That's the piece. I don't want to feel sick, what it is. I don’t want to feel unwell, and that then makes me feel bad in my body. I don't really need that. We want to try to feel good in our body as much as possible.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah. You know what's interesting about that? Because I've always been a very intuitive eater, very connected to my body. I feel like anytime I try to go against that, my body's like, “Don't you dare.” It gets mad at me. And I have a recent example.

So I did this three-month – so we were talking about Pilates earlier, and I'd been seeing so much content on women leaving weightlifting to go be Pilates girls, and all of a sudden now they're slimmed down and so snatched because they stopped weightlifting and lost all this cortisol and all this stuff. And I was like, “Let me look into this.”

So I decided to be a guinea pig, and I did a three-month Pilates experiment. I did a podcast episode on it. So if anybody wants to go hear that, it is on Season 6: Episode 11 on my Pretty Little Lifters podcast. I will send you the link. And yeah, it was very, very interesting. But after I finished this challenge and got my results and everything, it ended in December. So in January when we kicked off the new year, I was like, okay, I'm gonna get back into my strength training. I'm so excited to lift barbells, but I might want to – maybe I need to tighten up my diet a little bit, and I don't love counting calories or macros or anything, but I was like, you know, I've only tried it oncem and I think I lasted like a week or two, a week and a half maybe, and I was just over it. So I was like, no, I'm gonna really do it this time.

So I dedicate,d for sure, it was one month and then I was gonna do like a little bit longer than a month. And I did it. I was proud of myself for doing it, right? But it was very interesting because I also was doing DEXA scans to see if my body composition changed because this was all part of like an experiment, and I did not lose body fat. And it was almost like my body was mad at me. It's like, “Why are you feeding us all this food? What are you doing? This is too much!” And just the process of counting or anything, and I was like, whoa, I put in so much effort every week measuring food, doing this, cooking all my meals, dah, dah, dah, all of it, and nothing beneficial body-composition-wise happened, and I eat fairly well anyways. And so, I was just like, man, was that a waste? I guess I learned something, right? So then I was just like, you know what? We're gonna scrap that. And we're just gonna go back to me eating the way I usually do and just cooking more at home and being more intuitive about it. And so, I did that for the last month or so, and then I totally dropped 2% body fat, and I was like, “Excuse me?”

Megan Gill: I love this. I’m obsessed with this.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah! And so, I was like, whoa, our bodies are cool. Our bodies are so cool. And I know everyone's different, but for me personally, that is a stressful thing for me. So it's almost like add in a stressor, and my body's like, no, thank you. And then also it's just, like I said, I know my body, and for me, I was just eating a lot more food than my body was interested in. So it just didn't work for me.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Wow, that's so cool and such an important thing to hear. Sitting here as someone who has ditched, for me it was MyFitnessPal. It was never really macros and stuff like that, but it was still like a not-so-great triggering relationship with counting calories, that is so validating to hear.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yes! It was so validating.

Megan Gill: Right? You’re like, “Okay, well, was that a waste?” But like at least now you know that you can truly just be present with your body and in your life and with your food and your movement, and that that is what's more beneficial than cracking down and doing things that society says will “help you lose body fat” or whatever it may be, whatever the goal is. That is pretty freaking cool. That is a word.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, it was really cool. And the thing also is that, as somebody in the health and fitness industry, I understand what it takes to look a certain way, and sometimes I think when people are on social media and they see “body goals” or somebody that inspires them and they're like, “That physique,” and I'm like, “Do you know what they have to do for that? Like, but do you really know because they're not telling you exactly what they have to do. It's a lot of work, a lot of work.” And even on me as somebody who knows this stuff and is healthy and intuitive, if I wanted to change my body to how I used to look, you know, really lean or at a lower body fat percentage, it is a lot of work, and I just don't know if I'm interested in that, to be honest.

I was like, I don’t know if I'm there. It was just easier for me when I was in my twenties and thirties, and now knowing what I would have to do to achieve that, especially when you were already pretty lean and to go even leaner, it's a lot of work. And I don't think people realize what some of these people have to sacrifice or what they have to do, and it can be, you know, we're talking about life-long things and I'm like, “I can't do that lifelong. No! That's not fun!”

Megan Gill: Right, that’s not sustainable. Yeah, oh, for sure. And then also what comes into play also in this conversation, I think, is like genetics. If you see someone and you're like, “Body goals,” but my body is this, my calves ain't getting any smaller no matter what I do. I think that we need to bring that into the conversation as well, and that's something that I'm exploring for myself too.

Like, oh my gosh, I had an ex of mine who – I've always had a little belly. She's just always there. Genetically, my whole family has it. It's just what's going on. Even when I had a very unhealthy relationship to food and exercise and had a very low body weight for my 5’7” stature, I still had it. She was still there. She was still with me.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Wow. Okay.

Megan Gill: And not to out my ex or anything, but he was like, “You know you could get rid of that if you wanted?” He said that to me one time, and that just really irritated me because I’m like, sir, pardon me! Pardon, A, but B, at the same time, the way that my belly is on my body has always been this way on my body, and I don't want to know what I would have to do to make it go away. And, like you said, at this point in my life, I am not interested in making it go away. She's here to stay. She's with me. I love her now. I've radically accepted the fact that this is the body that I live in, and like this is the belly that I have, and she's mine, and she’s great, and I think that's so, so, so hard also though to get to that place. And granted it's not every day. Of course, of course, of course. I'm always working to accept my physical body.

Yeah, when you do look around at your friends or at social media or whatever it is, at the person, you're like, “Oh,” like if somebody has that body goals, I think we do just have to really remind ourselves like we are all so different.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, we are. Totally, and I'm glad you brought this up because, during

the pandemic, so this was like 2020, I developed SIBO, and I was having all these stomach issues. And so, I was working with a nutritionist and doctors, and one of the things that they were like, “Hey, you might want to try this special diet, and we’ve got to tame your symptoms a little bit.” And that word, right, a particular way of eating is very triggering for me. And I was instantly so angry because I was like, “I have to eat a certain way? What?” And it was the strictest thing I've ever done in my life, and I had to do it for three months. And I weigh the same as I did like right now when I started this. And within two weeks I lost ten pounds, which, on my frame, is a lot, and it was very noticeable.

But the thing that was very triggering was when I did lose that weight, it was like my “best body” in terms of I had all this muscle underneath, so I just looked ripped. I looked very lean, and I was getting so many compliments on my body. So it started messing with my head, and I was like, “Great. Does anybody know this is very unsustainable? I can't keep doing this. This is not what my body's supposed to look like. It's looking like this because I'm eating a very, very – I'm doing an elimination diet and we're seeing what foods I can tolerate or not.” And yeah, that was wild. That really messed with my head because I started thinking, “Oh, this is when I look better. Everyone's telling me this is my hot body,” right? And guess what? It went away as soon as I was off the diet because I had to eat normal again and exist, and I needed to go eat at restaurants because I'm human. And yeah, that was a very eye-opening time because when you get to a place where you kind of used to look, and it's very like acceptable, it can really mess with your head, you know?

Megan Gill: Oh my gosh, yes, for sure. Especially when the messaging around you is, “Oh my god, you look so good!” Compliment here, complement there. It's also like, whoa, why are we commenting on the way my body looks?

Tiffany Ragozzino: Yeah, it was weird. It was weird. And I think because I was also in a different headspace, it just felt very weird. But you were talking about like your stomach and you're like, “I've always had this,” and for my body type, you know, I've always had like a booty and you know, some legs. If I gain weight, that's where it goes, you know? So for me that was the first time my legs got thin, and I never really had that. So that was like, whoa, to get my legs to look like that, I have to eat like this? I was like, “No.”

Megan Gill: Not worth it.

Tiffany Ragozzino: I like thai food!

Megan Gill: Yes! Oh, my gosh. Yes, totally. That's so true. I keep coming back to this piece: sustainability. How are we gonna sustainably move in the world at a weight that our body is supposed to exist at? I did see a post on Instagram in the past couple days that was like, “If you have to do bad things to your body to get it to look a certain way, maybe your body's not supposed to look that way.”

Tiffany Ragozzino: Exactly, and that's funny you mentioned that, because I was thinking of doing a post like that too, because it is such an important thing, and goes back to the macros. If you have to count macros for months on end and forever or count calories or this or that, that's not what you're meant to look like, that's not how we exist. What happens if the scale's gone? What are you gonna do? You know? What if MyFitnessPal goes away? What's gonna happen, you know? And it's like that's not, you know, intuitive. It's a very controlling thing, you know?

Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. I was pretty vegan during the pandemic, eating a pretty vegan diet. I've been pescatarian for about 1ten years, give or take now, and within the past six months or so, my body was craving salami and Greek yogurt.

Tiffany Ragozzino: Oh, what a combo!

Megan Gill: Could you imagine together? No!

Tiffany Ragozzino: I love it. It's so funny!

Megan Gill: But it was such a cool experience to be able to be so in tune and so connected with my body now to be able to hear that be able to say, “Okay, I think I need to follow that. I think I need to listen to that,” and I did, and I have, and I've implemented both of those things into my diet. Very random. Why salami? Couldn't tell you. No idea.

Tiffany Ragozzino: I love salami.

Megan Gill: For some reason, that’s what I'm wanting, and it feels good as long as I don’t overdo it. It's such an interesting experience to have that and to be like, okay, let's do a test and follow that and see what happens and see what's going on. For me, it's changed my life and changed the way that I exist and how present I am in my life and with my food and with my body that I do want that for more people. “Wait, it doesn’t have to be like that, guys! It doesn't have to be that complicated. It’s actually a little bit easier over here.”

Tiffany Ragozzino: Totally. It is. It really is. And I think, for anybody listening, I think many people are disconnected from their bodies. With stress and technology and work and career and just the hustle of the world, right? But if you can make that a goal to get connected to your body a little bit every day, over the years you're gonna just feel different. You're gonna move differently in the world. You're gonna show up differently from yourself. You're gonna create different habits for yourself because you just can be connected, and I think that's the piece that's missing that connection. People can't connect to themselves.

A friend of mine recently posted something in her Instagram reels, and she was talking about how she tried like the Oura Ring tracker or whatever, and she was like, “Yeah, it wasn't for me. I don't need another wearable tech. I'm pretty intuitive.” And I was like, that's why I don't have one. I was like, I am so intuitive with my body. If I'm tired, I probably know why. If I'm hungry, I know. I need to give myself that space to check in and understand, “Oh, I didn't sleep well last night. Guess who's crabby and not feeling strong at the gym this morning? Me!” I understand, you know? So it's giving yourself that time and grace to learn how to connect with your body. And it might take a while for some people, right? And it is a weird concept because it seems very out there like, “How do you connect?” you know? And it's just slowing down, being more mindful, starting to move your body. People underestimate how much learning to move in your body can get you connected to your body, you know?

Megan Gill: Yeah. Oh, for sure, for sure. I think that's such an important message for people to hear. I absolutely love that and couldn't agree more.

This has been so, so, so great. But I have one more question for you before we wrap up. I'm curious to know what your favorite thing or things about your body is?

Tiffany Ragozzino: Ooh, my favorite things about my body. I feel like this is very fitting since I'm like a strength girlie and love that. But one of my favorite things of my body is I love feeling strong and capable. This weekend I went to go play with my nieces, and I'm lifting weights all the time, so picking them up overhead, like a strict picking them up, and we were playing this elevator game, and I was literally slo-moing them up, and I was like, “How cool that their auntie can just be like, woo, with these girls!” And I was like, “That's freaking cool!”

So honestly, I think that's my favorite thing about my body, that I can do things. In my classroom when I have to move a squat rack across to the other room, I can just do things. It’s empowering. I feel really confident. I feel really capable. So I think for me, my favorite thing is being able to do things that I need to do in my everyday life. I could be in Hawaii and go on a hike if I wanted to. I could go paddle boarding for a mile if I needed to. Just being able to show up and just exist in this body and do things without thinking, “Can I do this? Am I healthy enough or fit or strong enough?” I can just do the thing. It feels so cool.

Megan Gill: Oh, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing!

“ I think many people are disconnected from their bodies, with stress and technology and work and career and just the hustle of the world, right? But if you can make that a goal to get connected to your body a little bit every day, over the years you're gonna just feel different. You're gonna move differently in the world. You're gonna show up differently for yourself. You're gonna create different habits for yourself because you can be connected. And I think that's the piece that's missing: that connection.”

- Tiffany Ragozzino

Tiffany Ragozzino is a Southern California-raised Latina millennial, the founder of The Pretty Little Lifters, and CA Credentialed P.E. and Health educator. She created the PLL platform to provide the knowledge and tools she wished she had received in school. Recognizing the profound impact early education has on shaping lifelong wellness, empowering girls and women to reclaim their space and redefine their relationship with exercise and nutrition became her focus. Teaching girls and women to lift weights, without the weight of societal pressures to conform to unrealistic beauty standards, in order to help them build lifelong strength and confidence.

Learn more about Tiffany’s work on The Pretty Little Lifters site

Listen to The Pretty Little Lifters Podcast (this link will take you to the episode we spoke about in our conversation!")

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While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.

Everyone please welcome my friend and fellow fit model Alia Parise to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Alia and I have been seeing each other around the fit model world for a few years now. We often work together with the same clients, and I knew I needed to have a conversation with her.

Alia is a plus model who works with a wide range of clients. Because we both actively work as fit models, I wanted to discuss her experience as it pertains to her own body image. Her insight into what it takes to mentally protect yourself as a fit model is very similar to my own experience, and it was so lovely and healing to chat with someone who works in the same industry.

She references how fitting has helped her relate better to her own body and how, despite diet culture and the beauty industry’s loud opinions, she doesn’t want her body to change because she likes the size she’s at - something I can very deeply relate with as well. Alia is a wealth of knowledge in the fit world, and her views on body image inspired me. I left our conversation feeling as empowered as ever in my body, and I hope hearing Alia’s story empowers you too!

“ So it's understanding your measurements and how it relates to the public, so you almost become an advocate for other people of your size. And knowing how those comments affect you, that's where you can shut other people down, whether it's a tech, a designer or a friend, and you become a person who can speak for others, and that's really, really gratifying. “

- Alia Parise

Alia Parise: So I've always been a big girl. My dad was 6’3”, my mom was always 5’7”. So I've always been very tall on the thicker, curvier side. And, you know, growing up through high school and middle school, I was always the tall girl. I always stood at least four or five inches taller than my friends. But I was also always fuller-figured – I'm a 2X model. Most of my clients consider me 2X. And so, I would tend to wear baggy clothing, just things I was really comfortable in, you know, always kind of hiding my body, right? And I didn't get a lot of comments about people saying stuff to me because the thing about being the tall girl was nobody wanted to mess with me. So that was good. I didn't really get picked on a lot.

So going into college, I went to an art school. So again, it was really chill. Everybody there was very relaxed. Everybody's kind of focused on their art, so it wasn't really a lot of cliquey. It was kind of divided by majors. I was a graphic design major, and right out of college, I went into this lingerie company. And I know now that they were not very good. At the time, I just took it as a learning experience. So they said, “Oh, as a graphic designer, you're just gonna be back here behind the computer, making sure all the photos look good.” That lasted for all of one photoshoot.

So, from there, I started working the photoshoots. I worked hand in hand with the designers. At one point, I was helping them. She was “Ah, I need an idea for this.” I was even helping her. I was like, “Well, what if you try this for a design?” And she and I got very, very close, and we're still friends to this day, but they would also try stuff on me. And I still wasn't kind of comfortable in my body, but I was like, “Nobody's looking. We're all girls. I'm like whatever, I kind of don't care.” And then they brought in a new person to do marketing, and she saw that they were trying some stuff on me. She pulls me aside and goes, “You know you can get paid for that?” I said, “No, I didn't know that.” I didn't even know what a fit model was.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Alia Parise: This was about seven years ago. And by that time, this job had just really deteriorated. The place was getting more and more toxic. And so, I was actually on an open casting for Torrid for a fit model, and they were my exact measurements, size 18. And it was actually during that casting that the designer and I were like, “We've had it. We quit!” I was coming home from the casting, I emailed this job and I just said, “I quit!”

Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Good for you!

Alia Parise: Honestly, the best thing I could have done because this place was toxic. It was like too many cooks in the kitchen, and nobody wanted to take responsibility for anything. But I did chalk it as a learning experience because I did learn, you know, how things were supposed to fit, how photoshoots are actually run, coordinating this model with this agency and this photographer. So that was good.

From there, straight up quitting that job. I got the number of the agency that that girl had recommended the new marketing person, and I've been with that agency ever since. I went not necessarily full-time into fit modeling because, you know, as you start as a fit model, your work is slow. It was about a month or two before I got a really good client. I was there twice a week starting off, and from there I got thrown into the deep end of the fitting pool. I started off doing swimwear.

Megan Gill: I actually started off doing swimwear as well. So you're like, “Ope!” Yeah, you're right in it. Okay. Cool. Cool, cool.

Alia Parise: Exactly. I got thrown into the deep end. It's like I'm trying on skimpy underwear. And so, I got thrown into the deep end of the pool. I was having a conversation with somebody else one time. They're like, “I didn't realize just how much you're actually naked.” I was like, “Well, yeah, you're constantly changing clothes. You're not always naked in front of people, but yes, depending on what you're wearing.”

Megan Gill: Right, and I feel like that forces you to get a little bit more comfortable with your body, kind of right off the bat, or not even comfortable, but it forced me to be okay with being in bikinis in front of people, you know?

Alia Parise: Absolutely. I definitely agree with that. That first job where I got two days a week, it was knitwear, so it was like sweaters like this, shirts, skirts. And so, that got me a little more comfortable into actually talking about fit modeling, you know, fixing this, fixing that.

And then going into swimwear, like you said, I started to get more comfortable with my body much faster. And what I did realize, I got this from a couple of the techs, a couple of the designers, is they want you to be happy in the clothes. And so, it's like what can I do to change this? So you would be happy buying this? And that really changed my mindset. So they want the clothes to look good on you, and they want you to feel good in them, so you would be comfortable buying them at whatever price range they have at that point.

And so, I really got really comfortable with myself really fast. I've always been a big girl all my life. I've never been smaller than a 16 (except when I was 16). So I got comfortable being bigger chested, being curvier in my hip, and I've never really had a problem with that. But also what I've learned in fit modeling is you go into a fitting, and you're gonna hear a couple of phrases like, “This looks awful. “This doesn't look good.” And “Oh, this looks terrible. We need to fix it.” And if you're new to fit modeling and don't know anything about constructive criticism, that's gonna hurt.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Alia Parise: So I will say having that little bit of design background from design school, teachers telling you your art sucks, fix, has given me a little bit of a thicker skin. So I will say, I feel like I had a little bit of a leg up there.

Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. I can relate with you on that too, coming from the theater world and the acting world where I'm so used to hearing no at this point, that when I get feedback or when I get that email like, “Oh, sorry, we went in a different direction.” I'm like, “Oh, wow, that's out of the norm.” So I can relate with you on that. I think it does help prepare you to not take things personally when comments are made, or when maybe you don't get the job even, or helping you understand that it's not about your body. It's not your body that “doesn't look good.” It's like we're here for like garments, right?

Alia Parise: Exactly, you develop a little bit of a thicker skin. Every now and again, you get some comment that was just like, okay, that was out of line. I think you mentioned here, not necessarily horror stories, but that first client, that swimmer client, they had a male tech there. It's not often that you see men who are techs, but every now and again, you get one. And we were talking about plans for the weekend. I said, “Oh, I'm going to the Sriracha factory.” Once a year. They had like a big open house. You get to see them process the chilies and they have different vendors come in. It was very, very cool. I don't know if they still do that. I need to look that up.

Megan Gill: That's so cool.

Alia Parise: And so, I was very excited telling them about this. I was like, “They have all these things you could try, sriracha chips and all this other stuff.” And he made some comment to the effect of, “Well, don't overdo it this weekend. I want these samples to fit on Monday.” And I was like, “Excuse me?”

Megan Gill: Yep. Mm-hmm. Wild.

Alia Parise: Even the other texts and the designers looked at him like, “I can't believe he said that.” He wasn't there for that long afterwards. I maybe he had one more fitting with him, and then he was gone.

Megan Gill: Okay, that's good because that's, oof. Yeah.

Alia Parise: They realized that’s not okay.

Megan Gill: Which is great because I feel like there are so many spaces in which those comments are so normalized. I mean, and it's even weirder coming from men. I was on a job recently, and it was a male designer. So not a tech, but still. And he was like saying something about how my bust was a little bit under spec, so I was wearing a thicker bra to hit their spec. And he was like, “Oh, are you wearing the proper undergarment?” And I was , “Yeah. And she was like, “Yeah, she's hitting 37 and a half bust,” whatever. And he said something about how the other designer said that I was fat because my bust was actually on spec, and it was so shocking to my system.

Alia Parise: Wow.

Megan Gill: That's so out of line. You're not funny. That’s not funny. And so, god, I was just like, “Ooh, sheesh.” And what happened to you too, like excuse me? It's that type of shit that's perpetuated – it’s that type of language and that type of phrase continually perpetuates these diet culture narratives. Or I don't know about you, I'm curious to hear your take on as fit models, we are expected to “maintain this size,” right, in order to keep our clients. We're constantly battling – at least I know I am constantly battling that, “Okay, I wanna try to stay the same size so that I'm not losing clients and up and down and all over the place.” And so, I feel like those types of comments could really get to a person and really affect someone. I think it's hard also as the model. How do we shut that down when you need – like, I want that client, but I don't like that language. So how do you kindly say, “Oh, that was inappropriate,” without being like – you know?

Alia Parise: I think I would say it really depends on the client and kind of who's saying it to you. And for me as a plus size model, because there is a lot of variation in plus size, especially with me depending on my measurements. I've had clients call me a 1X, 0X, a 2X, 18, 20, even a 22. My measurement's the exact same, but I've had so much variety in these measurements, and it really is having to have that thicker skin. I understand I'm a big girl, but I've never had the comment of anybody calling me fat, luckily.

Megan Gill: Thank god.

Alia Parise: I know there are some plus-size influencers that are saying, you know, “Fat doesn't mean ugly. Fat is not a bad word.” I'm like I get that, but it's still a hurtful word if people are using it that way.

Megan Gill: Exactly, right. We need to normalize the word in general and not demonize it. And I think our culture has just completely gone that direction with it.

Alia Parise: They’ve absolutely gone nuts with it. There was one particular client, not a full-on horror story, but the client was just very, very toxic. They had brought me in, they always did what they call straight size, you know, like extra small through extra large, maybe some extra large. It was a bit of a higher-end brand, so they were introducing inclusive sizing.

They brought in plus experts from New York and another one that they actually brought out of retirement from Florida. And so, I worked hand in hand with these designers, but the techs were – I'd say a good number of them were very forceful, very blunt, and they would pick at your clothes like this, and they would pick at you, and they would, you know, kind of forcefully turn you while you're working on the garment. And the missy model I was working with at the time, she'd been fitting with them for, like, 18 years, and that was her only client. And so, she would, you know, pull me aside, say, “Oh, I'm sorry about this, I'm sorry about this.” I'm like, “That's not okay.” And she would say, “Oh, does so-and-so pinch you?” I said, “Pinch me?” And she goes, “Yeah, when she grabs the clothes, she pinches me.” I said, “She only pinched me once.” She goes, “Well, what did you do?” I said, “I turned to her, and I just forcefully said, ‘Don't pinch me.’”

Megan Gill: Yeah, we have to advocate for ourselves.

Alia Parise: Absolutely. It's a case of being a fit model, you have to kind of walk that delicate line of being strong for yourself, advocating for yourself, but not offending anybody because everybody in the fashion industry, they're not high strung, but there is a lot of ego there. And so, say for, in inclusive sizing or plus sizing, if something doesn't look good and they’re like, “I like this.” And you have to very carefully say, “I understand you like this design, but for plus you may have to, you know, add a dart here for a bigger body to make it flattering.” So it's hard to work in advocating for yourself and for other people of your size while walking that delicate line of not offending the designer because if they don't like you, you don't get that job anymore.

Megan Gill: Right. That is so, so true. And then that comes along with you are out here just trying to do your job to the best of your ability by offering these comments, which is what we're hired to do, right? I mean, obviously with certain clients, you kind of like understand how much feedback they're looking for, but at the end of the day, it's like we want these garments to then fit other people of similar size and fit them well. And like you were saying earlier, we want people to actually want to purchase them. That is part of the job. So if you're offering up this feedback that's like, “Hey, actually I think this could make it better,” and they're so opposed to it, it kind of defeats the purpose of them hiring you, right?

Alia Parise: Mm-hmm.

Megan Gill: Yeah.

Alia Parise: Every situation is different. Every client is different. It's like if you build a good rapport with the techs and the designers, they'll take your comments into good consideration.

There was one client I worked with where they had two different designers but all under the same label, so the styles were similar. But one designer wouldn't listen to me at all. She'd say, “Oh, add a half inch here.” And I said, “No, you need to add at least an inch and a half because otherwise it's not gonna fit. This fabric does not stretch.” And she was just kind of like whatever. And at some point you kind of stop giving comments because you know they're not gonna listen. And then the little part of your brain says, “Okay, well I'll let your returns speak for me because I said this. This is how you fix this.”

But in the exact same company, there was another designer that would come in with her tech, and they would constantly ask for feedback. “How much you do this, how much you do this? What about here? What about here?” And they would even ask for design feedback like, “What about having this line here?” I said, “Oh, for a fuller bust it should be up here.” And she would ask for a lot of feedback. And at one point I was so frustrated with this other designer that I kind of pulled the one who listened to me aside and said, “She's not listening to my comments. The garments aren't gonna fit well.” And she kind of said, “She doesn't listen to anybody, so the returns are gonna have to speak for themselves,” like what I was saying.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Yeah. Which is hard.

Alia Parise: Yeah, it's hard because you get the designers and the techs who listen, and you get those who don't. And then you get the really interesting ones who want to do their own thing like, “Oh, that's how it's supposed to look.” And I'm like, “Well, it's not really flattering.” She goes, “Well, that's the style.” And at that point, you kind of have to stop giving feedback because they stopped listening.

Megan Gill: Right. It's like less of a collaborative experience at that point, which is unfortunate for everyone. Not only for you, for us not being heard as the fit model, who's there to do this job, but then also the company that's maybe not gonna sell these garments because they're not actually gonna fit. Yeah, I know, I feel like it really keeps us on our toes, moving from client to client, and kind of having to get to know new clients and how they work and kind of what's going on there and like how exactly they're looking to work with a model. It's such interesting work.

Alia Parise: Yeah, and it constantly shifts. Especially also if you get one of those high-profile clients that changes management. That same client that wanted to bring me in to do inclusive sizing, they had the good techs. They had a couple that were iffy, but once I kind of put my foot down, they listened to me. So that was good. But then they brought in a new directing manager. She got rid of a bunch of techs. She brought in some new ones who didn't listen, and you know, it's pretty standard to be measured once a month for a client. She wanted to get us measured every two weeks, and then she bumped it up to every single week.

Megan Gill: Oh my gosh.

Alia Parise: Like you said, it really does take a toll on you mentally, especially – she also was an older model. I believe she was in her fifties, which also doesn't help because she knows as being in her fifties, she's getting ready to be phased out.

Megan Gill: Mm, yeah, which also I hate that side of it all. I think it's really amazing when I see an older model. I’m like, “Yes, okay!” That gives me hope. Also, older women using their bodies to fit garments, we also need that in this industry. Like we need such an array of different people and different bodies and ages. Oh, gosh, it's so wild.

I actually have a similar story where there was a switch in design. The full design team left. They brought in another new full design team. And this was a client that had just started bringing me in a lot. They were always consistent. I had been fitting with them for over a year at this point, and they had been bringing me in for all-day fits. I mean, I was really booking out a lot of time for this client, which was awesome. But my point of contact was a tech, and she left as well. A lot of the team left, and the new tech team got really weird about measuring, because I genuinely, truly, genuinely was on spec for them. What they were looking for in a missy model, I was right down the middle. But this was like last summer. It was really hot. Our bodies expand when it's hot. You're changing clothes, and you are lowkey sweating and your body's hot. And they were like, “Your bust is way over, blah, blah, blah.” And one of the new techs pulled me outside and was like, “Hey, your bust is over,” and I was just trying to advocate for myself as much as I could. Like, “Listen, I measure myself a lot. I know I'm on spec for you guys. I am maybe not wearing the right bra today. It could be anything. We could be on our cycle, like our bodies shift, give or take, throughout like our monthly cycles so much, that I think it is really unfortunate that some clients put so much stress.

Alia Parise: Absolutely.

Megan Gill: It's almost like inadvertent stress on us models, generally speaking. It's so hard. And then I do have the clients that are pretty forgiving, and even if I am like an inch under here or an inch over here, we just take that into account when we're fitting, and I'm really grateful for those clients. And I think that I've learned a lot through that experience last summer. It’s like we just need to have a little bit more grace and not be quite as cutthroat because the things that these techs and designers are saying to us and like saying to models and saying to people that are using their bodies for their job, it's very delicate and it could so easily send us into like a very dark mental place, and I think about that all the time.

I have done a lot, a lot, a lot of work on my own body image and just body image in general and kind of pulling myself out of this hole that I was stuck in for so long when I was struggling and going through it. But then I'm like, gosh, if these people are saying these things to me and they're still kind of, you know, hitting that little wounded part of me, I can only imagine how it would feel to be someone who is maybe in the thick of struggling or somebody who is maybe not doing mentally so well as far as their body image goes. It's like we really have to be careful, and I don't know where that shift happens. But I feel like we also do have a hand in it, like you were saying, kind of as far as advocating for ourselves in these ways and like being firm but kind at the same time and kind of just shutting this stuff down.

Alia Parise: And I think the main thing is kind of shutting it down. I've seen videos on Instagram, on reels, you know, models shutting down photographers when they make those comments or telling on these clients that will do things to them. And I think you have to really grow into that confidence. You and I have a little bit of a thicker skin developed from previous experience, me from design school, from constructive criticism. I developed that early, and in that first couple of years of fit modeling, knowing that they want you to be happy in the clothes. And even designers who said, “Oh, this looks awful,” they’ll turn to you and say, “It’s not you. It's the clothes. We want you to look good!” And those designers and those techs will build you up enough that you can deal with the other ones. But it is definitely a self-confidence thing, and it's not just dealing with it in your job, you're also dealing with it in your daily life.

Unfortunately, I do have a friend who's a little bit negative and a little bit judgmental. We'll be at a Starbucks and somebody is walking down the street, and they're a little bit thicker, but they're wearing something tight. And she'll say, “Just because they make it your size doesn't mean you should wear it.” And I said, “Let her wear what she wants to wear.” And I've gone off on her for that.

Megan Gill: I am so glad that you did because, excuse me, what?

Alia Parise: I said, “That's none of your business. Let her wear what she wants to wear!”

Megan Gill: Yeah, one hundred percent.

Alia Parise: I'm like, “It's not your business, I don't care.” And she's like, “Well, I don't care either.” I said, “If you didn't care, you wouldn't have made that comment.” It's like it’s not your business. She can wear what she wants to wear.

Megan Gill: Right, oh, I think that's such an important piece of it.

Alia Parise: Yeah.

Megan Gill: That it preps you to like shut it down in your personal life as well. Because I can relate with that. I have friends that say something and they're like, “Oh, you're the body image girl! You probably hate that.” And I'm like, “Yeah, there's a different way. Let's talk about it!” It’s maybe not like our emotional labor to kind of teach other people, but to a degree, I don't mind taking that on because I think that, like you were saying, at this point, I have enough self-confidence, and I've developed like a little bit more discernment as far as like how to handle this stuff.

Alia Parise: Exactly. And almost when you become a fit model, you almost become an advocate for your size because it's not just for you, it's for other people. There's one client that I fit for, and they use multiple plus models. And our measurements may be the same, but our body shapes are different. The client I was at this morning, they use one model for a couple of teams. They use me for another couple of teams. For example, her bust is a little bit smaller than me, so they call me in to do the brass for a true 40DD, and then they'll try on other stuff and they say, “Oh, well this is a little bit tight here and this is a little bit big here.” And then you tell them, “Oh, you need to find the happy medium because the other model is, you know, bigger than me here, but my under bust is smaller, or my hip is not as – it's a little flat there. It's not as round.” And so you understand not necessarily the flaws of your body, but how your body is shaped and how it compares to different people. I know, for example, my arms are always one inch long no matter what client I fit with.

Megan Gill: Mine too!

Alia Parise: So no matter what I fit with, that sweater is always gonna look like it hits here. My arms are just long, and depending on the trends, long sleeves are in, so yay for me.

Megan Gill: I know. I know!

Alia Parise: But if they want shorter sleeves, I'm like, “Yeah, that's gonna be like this on me.” So it's understanding your measurements and how it relates to the public, so you almost become an advocate for other people of your size, and knowing how those comments affect you, that's where you can shut other people down, whether it's a tech, a designer or a friend. And you become a person who can speak for others. And that's really, really gratifying.

That swimwear job that I no longer work at, just because they were a little bit toxic and they kind of got worse, but they did swimwear for Walmart, so it was really cool, next season, going into Walmart and seeing these things on the rack and you feel a little bit of pride like, “I helped make that,” especially when somebody picks it up and says, “Oh, this is cute!” And you're like, “Yeah, I helped with that!” And it's a really good confidence booster because just in your own body, it's like, “I used my body to help this look good and help somebody else feel good!” So that is a huge confidence booster. I honestly think all fit models should go to the store, see stuff on, and see what other people think. And you're just like, “Ah!”

Megan Gill: Agreed. I'm getting emotional right now because it's so true. And it's so important. If you really break it down, the work that we're doing is so, so needed, and gosh, hearing you talk about that it’s like you're advocating for other bodies and like other people of your size too, it’s just like, “Ah!” Yeah, that really is what we're doing, and it's really beautiful and lovely, and I also feel a sense of pride when I'm in Target and I'm like, “Oh!” I’ll be with my mom, “I fit that and that and that!” because you know, with explaining what you do – yeah, it is fun. You're like, “This is what I’m doing! I'm making sure these clothes can fit like a real human body of other people that are my size!” It's so, so cool.

Alia Parise: It's fun. And honestly, what I do like about fit modeling is I'm usually not a fan of being in front of the camera. I'll do an occasional print job, but I like being behind the camera. People say, “Oh, you're a model. It must be so glamorous.” Like, no, as a fit model, we are the unglamorous model. We're behind the camera, we're covered in pins, we're covered in marker.

Megan Gill: It’s so true!

Alia Parise: I came home one day, it was hysterical, and they tried on three or four different swimwear tops and swimwear bottoms. And so, you know, they're gonna take a Crayola marker, mark where that one is, then throw on the next one to another Crayola marker, and then you come home covered in marker. And so, there was one spot I couldn't reach, and to my sister I was like, “Amira, can you help me get this?” And she was like –

Megan Gill: You like, “Oh, it’s part of the job!”

Alia Parise: It's part of the job, and then she turns to me and she goes, “I could not do your job. I could not have somebody in my personal space like that.”

Megan Gill: Listen, that's fair.

Alia Parise: It really is Fair.

Megan Gill: Yeah, but it's true. It's nice that there's something about the unglamorous side of fit modeling that's so freeing for me. As someone who grew up dancing competitively, I studied musical theater in college, I did it professionally for a while, so I've always grown up looking at myself in the mirror in a very “glamorous light,” I think kind of. With dance and music theater, your hair is up, you're in a costume, you have full makeup on. So it's been really lovely and freeing to just show up to my fit clients with no makeup, my hair up, bare. It truly has helped me feel more in my body and more in love with my natural self, being in front of the mirror and being on display and being in front of the designers and techs and even just like the photos. Some clients take photos and they'll cut your head out, but with some clients, my head's in it on the iPad or whatever, and I'm just like, “Whatever!” It's been a good challenge for me to be like, “Yeah, it doesn't matter because it's not about that. It's not about how I look,” which has been so freeing.

Alia Parise: Yeah, it's very freeing. Like I said, I've just become so comfortable in my body, but the good and bad thing is I can go to a store, I can pick something up, I can look at it on the hanger like, “Okay, I know that will fit.” It's like I throw something on, I don't even need to try it on. The bad thing is with fitting for clients who have really good quality stuff, it's like you're going through and you and you touch something on the hanger and you're like, “Ew!” It kind of ruins you for shopping off the rack.

Megan Gill: No, it's so true.

Alia Parise: But it's also interesting because you can tell which companies will use a fit model and which won't because, you know, certain things will pinch a certain way, and you can tell, “Okay, this was never thrown on a person. This was thrown on a mannequin.”

Megan Gill: Yep. So true.

Alia Parise: And after just so much experience, you really become a master of your craft to the point where you can even help clients at the pattern-making level. I cannot tell you how many clients, especially when they do pants for plus size, it's like, “Oh, this always looks wrong.” I said, “Let me show you the exact fix that they need to do for plus size. You fix the rise length. And then, you know, then you can get into the terminology. It's like, “Most of the time when they grade the rise for plus, the rise ends up looking like this. You need to change the grade so it looks like this, and that’s how you fix the rise shape.” And they all go, “Oh!”

I've actually worked with a lot of clients who've never done plus size before. And so, you get enough experience, you can help make those changes, and you've helped experienced designers, you've helped experience techs, and you know that they're gonna make a good product. And again, going back to that sense of pride thing, you know, you've done a good job, and it's really wonderful. So it's very, very satisfying.

Megan Gill: Oh, it's so rewarding. And even just that, the fact that you can step in to a client who maybe hasn't worked with a plus model before and be like, “This is how you shift the rise,” that is so incredible and so needed. And the impact you've then had on these people, this company, the clothes they're going to put out into the world, it has so many ripple effects. Yeah, I love that.

—

Alia Parise: I was fitting with this client that did bridesmaids dresses. They had another model who is a little bit bigger than me here, and then they had to change a lot of the fits to fit me and accommodate me, and I had a little bit bigger hips than she did. So I fit with them for a little less than a year. And then of course, got the call, “We're going in a different direction.” But internally you don't take it too hard because you know that this is not going to do well for the client because they've had to make so many changes that they're kind of shooting themselves in the foot. So you don't really take it as personally, and it's kind of like, “Okay, whatever, onto the next client.” And so, that’s, like you said, tying back to the anxiety of staying within a certain measurement, but then you've got clients that turn around and change their measurements, so you can't win.

Megan Gill: Oh gosh, I know! I feel like I've been fitting for Target for over two years now, which is awesome. But yeah, I feel like things are always changing, but I do think that, for me, the big mental shift that has really helped me when losing a client or when a client doesn't call me back in or whatever, is I just remind myself there's gonna be another client. Something else is gonna come around.

When I first started doing it, it was very sparse, very few and far between. The pandemic hit nothing for a while with the pandemic. And then 2022 I think is really when it started to take off for me. So three years ago. And now fitting consistently for three years, I understand the ebb and the flow of it all. I agree with you, I love this work, and I'm so grateful to get to do it, and I truly, truly enjoy it. This brings me so much more joy and purpose. And I just really, truly love going to my clients. I don't know that I've ever really felt that before with a job, I guess, that wasn't my creative pursuit. So I love that you feel that too. It's fun to talk about it with someone else who also really, really enjoys it.

Alia Parise: Absolutely. I agree. Like I said, I wanna do this job as long as I can.

Megan Gill: Yeah, me too.

Alia Parise: And I say that because I've got bad knees, so you’ve just gotta be careful what shoes you wear.

Megan Gill: Yeah. No, it is so, so true. Oh my goodness. And it is nice that at least with this work, we are on our feet and maybe not moving quite as much as when I used to serve. It was funny, when I started doing longer fittings and how much my body hurt and how much my feet hurt and my lower back, versus when I was serving a year ago. You're just walking so much that you don't really notice it quite as much. I was never really sore or in pain. Whereas with fitting sometimes, it's like, “Whoa, okay, my body –,” because you're just kind of standing there and changing clothes, and that takes a lot of energy, but I'm grateful that it at least allows me to be on my feet and move my body a little bit and that I'm not always stuck at a desk, kind of like you were saying too. At least we get to be out and about and driving from this client to this client and there's some movement involved, which is lovely.

Alia Parise: Yeah, it's the variety. You get to stand, you get to sit, you get to move around. It's fun going to the clients that do athleticwear and they're you know, “Do squats. Do a couple of jumping jacks. Do a few exercises to see how the clothes react.” And you're like, “Okay!” It’s not good when you did leg day the day before, but yes.

Megan Gill: So true! I also love fitting athleticwear because you're like, “Oh my gosh, yes. This is so important! Let's make sure they're not see-through. Let's make sure I can move in them and the leggings aren't rolling down on me.” All of the things that you would want for yourself, you get to put into these garments that are going to then go be sold to so many people, which is so cool and so incredible.

I don't know if you've felt this way, I'm curious. I think that fitting has helped me love my body. My relationship with my body, it’s really strengthened it because we are using our own unique bodies that are shaped in these unique ways to fit these clothes. We're using our own body as the tool and oh, gosh, going back to it being rewarding, that feels so rewarding. And it also just reminds me that my body is good, my body is needed, my body is doing this job that is so influential for all the people that are gonna go buy these clothes.

Alia Parise: Exactly. It really is. You just become grateful for your body. It's like every time I look in the mirror, there are a few personal things that I would like to see. You know, we're not symmetrical. I've got one boob that's bigger than the other. That's me.

Megan Gill: Oh, same. Yep. Me too.

Alia Parise: A little curve here that's not on this side. I wish I was a little more symmetrical, but every time I look in the mirror, I'm extremely happy with what I see. I think I look great. I've got a nice shape. This looks good on me. This looks good on me. And I never had that feeling of – right? Like I said, there are a couple things I personally would like to change, but it's just for me, it's not for anybody.

Megan Gill: Yeah, me too.

Alia Parise: And I'm always so happy when I look in the mirror. I'm very grateful. I'm happy for the skin that I'm in. I don't wanna gain weight. I don't wanna lose weight. Everybody out there saying, “Oh, do this to get this body,” or “Do this to lose five pounds.” It is none of your business.

Megan Gill: Mm-hmm. Amen.

Alia Parise: I'm so happy in my own body, and once you become so happy in your own skin, your own body, your own shape, you can get better at ignoring those other voices, mass media, the random person, you know, the hater on Instagram who's got no life, you know? You get better about ignoring those voices, and you just become so strong and so happy in your own shape. For example, I always think I look great in the mirror, and then I turn around and see myself in a camera, and I’m like, “Hmm, I'm actually bigger than I thought I was.” But it doesn't bother me. You know, the camera adds ten pounds. It doesn't distribute it. It's not fair.

Megan Gill: It is also so disorienting. I've struggled with a lot of body dysmorphia in my history, and it's like all of these different ways we see ourselves are all so different. And a lot of it I feel like, for me, has been in my head. So it's almost pulling myself out and being like, “Whoa, okay. Why do I think that my body is taking up this much space, when in reality, A, it doesn't really matter because if I feel good in my body, who cares how much space it's taking up, and B, I really need to get out of my own way because it's doing me such a disservice to like the times that I do like look and see, like, “Ugh, I don't like that,” or “I'm bigger than I thought I was on camera,” or whatever it is. It's been so, so important for me to challenge those thoughts every single time they come up, or just like feeling different about them kind of like you were saying like ,”Eh, okay, whatever. So I don't love the way I look in this photo. Okay. All right. Whatever,” you know, instead of taking it in and like taking it to heart.

Oh, I'm just so glad that you shared that. I was just like, “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!” as you were talking, yeah.

Alia Parise: It's like we all have bad days. I had one last week, and I was like, “Oh, I'm really big. I'm really bloated,” and then my brain was like, “Yo, you were in a car accident. You're a little swollen. You're fine,” or it's like, you know, you're on your period, or whatever. It's like, "Remember that you had Mexican last night. You're gonna be a little swollen.” It’s like you have to train your brain to stop the negative thought and reframe it. And that does take a lot of work. I'm still doing it myself.

Megan Gill: Yeah. Every day.

Alia Parise: Yeah, right now I'm going through a lot of kind of a self-development journey myself right now. It's like my body confidence is pretty strong. Right now, I'm working on the mental game. It's stopping those negative thoughts so I don't spiral or have a bad day. That’s a big thing.

Megan Gill: Oh my god. Yes, yes, yes. It totally is. I can absolutely relate with you on that. I'm very much on a similar journey, and it's so interesting to be so aware and it's the thing, once you see it, you can't unsee it. So once those thoughts start popping up, and you're so aware of the thought that you're like, “Hey, but wait, brain!” It's so cool to have that experience. Yeah, it sucks, obviously, that these negative thoughts come up, but the reality is they are gonna come up, and if we can just work on our relationship to those thoughts and work on the tools in our toolbox to navigate them and to not take them so literally, or take them to heart and be able to work through them. What empowering work. It's so transformative. I feel like it can change everything for us, which is really cool.

Alia Parise: Absolutely, I agree, and I really think what would help the industry is if the agents who are sending these models out there really take the time to work with these models and say, “Be aware. This is how a casting works. This is how a fitting works.” I really think that they should prepare some of these girls and guys too. It's like you are going to experience one of three situations, one of four situations, and take the time to work with your models. Don't just say, “Show up at this address. Ask for this person.” I've worked with many fit models on, tandem fittings, you know, plus and size small/missy side-by-side. And a lot of times this model I've worked with, it's either her first fitting, her second fitting, and she doesn't even know how to fill out the paper.

Megan Gill: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Alia Parise: And they're just standing there, and I can see them visibly reacting to comments that they say about the clothes. And then when I come up, I make sure she's looking at me and I give different feedback and stand a certain way. And then I'll kind of pull her aside saying, okay, this is how you wanna say this. This is how you wanna do that. And I really think agents don't prepare their models for that. It's kind of scary. When I signed on with an agency a few years back, they were saying, oh, please read through and acknowledge all of this paperwork and documents. And there was a warning in there about being aware of the signs of bulimia and anorexia.

Megan Gill: Wow. Wow.

Alia Parise: Yeah, it’s terrifying. So they’ll give you this paperwork, but talk to your models. Have them be aware of this because it's really mental. The fashion industry is very harsh on your mental game and your mental awareness of yourself and how you're with these people. So I really think agencies should prepare their models more and being fellow models, make friends with your fellow models. They are not competition at all. Those are your truest friends. They will look out for you and you all will be together because we are a sisterhood, brotherhood. Your fellow models will look out for you. Yeah, you've got the ones who are kind of up in their ego and then they see you as competition, but you mentally know that they're not gonna last long, but it's being there for each other.

I did a fitting one time where I was a 2X, and they did a size-run fitting. So they had extra small, small, medium, all the way up to 3X or 4X. All of these models were print models. None of them knew anything about fitting.

Megan Gill: Wow.

Alia Parise: They were all asking each other, and I said, “You guys have never done a fitting?” And they all said, “No.” I said, “Okay, gather around my peoples!”

Megan Gill: Yeah, “I got you!”

Alia Parise: They pulled out their phones. “What's your Instagram?” So that feels really good helping your fellow models, helping other people in this situation.

Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh, I fully agree with you. And for me, oh my gosh, I was not fully prepared. My agents did a decent job of prepping me, but I feel like so much of it also is you get the experience by being on the job, right? You don't really know how it's gonna go down until you're doing it, until you're in the fitting and experiencing it for yourself or when you're experiencing that size run. Or for one of my first tandem fittings I was just listening, taking note, and taking in so much information from the other models I was working alongside. And I think that's another piece of it too. I really cared about this work from day one, and I was really excited about it, so I wanted to learn and understand how to give amazing feedback and how to approach each job. And now, I absolutely agree with everything you're saying. I want to give back to other models in the ways that models before me gave to me and helped me and lent me a hand when I needed it, you know? Or when you have a question.

I came to you with a question recently, and you were so awesome, and I just so appreciate that because I agree. It's like we are all holding hands in this together. If I'm out of casting and there are other models, like I'm gonna chit chat with them, I'm gonna try to become friends with them. “I want you to book this as much as I wanna book this. We're all in this together,” you know? Which feels really cool. It's such a lovely place to be in. Yeah, it's really special.

Alia Parise: Yeah, and that's my biggest thing the last couple years is definitely giving back. I did a couple of interviews with Plus Model Magazine, and they actually published them in the magazine, which I thought was really cool.

Megan Gill: That's amazing.

Alia Parise: And then I had another model saying, “Oh, well they're not that big of a magazine.” I'm like, “They reach enough people. I don't care!”

Megan Gill: Yeah. Who cares? Oh my gosh!

Alia Parise: And I eventually actually pulled all these articles that I did together and actually put together a book.

Megan Gill: I was gonna ask you about this because I went on a deep dive. I saw it on your Instagram, and I was planning on bringing it up here because I think that that's an incredible way to give back and no one has done that before, and so, I'm so excited that you did that. Yeah, sorry. Continue. I'm just excited!

Alia Parise: Yeah. And so, it started off with a couple articles, like what's in your fitting bag? One of the big things was doing a virtual fitting. I know you said you didn't have work during the pandemic, but I did. I had a couple of clients that really could not stop fitting. And so, what they ended up doing was sending samples to me at my house. I had a cleaner backdrop. And then I would have a setup just like this. I would fit the clothes virtually and then send them back to them. Lysol is your friend.

And so, I was explaining my setup, the tablet, working with your agent, and I think I did one other article. I don't remember off the top of my head. But I basically took those three articles and combined it and put them together in the book. It's literally called Fit Model 101: An Introductory Guide to Working in the Fashion Industry. It's not necessarily a how-to book. It's really just to get you started. What is a fitting versus what is a casting, looking for the right agency. I don't name any names. I just say, “I would recommend looking at an agency that has a department that does fitting because then they know what jobs to book you for.” The first thing on there is don't quit your day job because you don't get jobs instantly. You don't.

Megan Gill: Right, right, right. Yeah, so important, such important stuff.

Alia Parise: Exactly. And there's a whole chapter in there that I specifically wanted to expand on talking about your mental awareness. When people say, “This doesn't look good, they're not talking about you. They want you happy in the clothes.” And there's a small section in the back that’s, “When they say bust, it's this measurement. When they say over bust, it's this measurement,” and little sections in the back with little bits of terminology. You know, every client is different. Some call PP some call pre-production, QC, and I say in the book, they do not expect you to learn these terms right away. They really don't. And because then you'll get into more technical stuff. With bras, there's a lot of different technical stuff: wires, gores, lining, different fabric. Swimwear is extremely technical. There's elastic, there's rubber, there's layers, there's mesh. It's a lot. So I don't put all that in the book. It's just literally a beginner's guide. “This is how you get started. If you need a quick reference guide, here's what PP means. Here's what first fit means, and general comments about giving feedback.” If someone asks, “Oh, how do you like that top?” saying, “I don't like it,” is not helpful. You may not know the term, but saying, “Oh, it's too big here. It's too tight here.” That is helpful feedback. Saying you don't like it is not helpful.

Megan Gill: Right, right, right. Yep. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you wrote this, and I'm so glad that it's out there, and it’s so important. All the agencies should be like handing one of these to their new fit models like, “Here we go to get you started!”

Alia Parise: Honestly, I've kind of put it off. I haven't done a print run of it yet. It's only digital. It's available on my website. It's not on Amazon yet. I need to work with a publisher and some print copies and send them out to the agents because they have the link where they can get it on my site and then they'll get an agency discount. It's like 10% or 15% depending on who I sent the link to. But yeah, I don't make a lot of money off of it, but I get the satisfaction of giving back to these models. In fact, when I get a purchase through my website of the book, I will email the person who purchased it, “Thank you for purchasing. Please let me know if you have any questions. Once in a while I'll get a question, but most of the time they're like, “Okay, thanks. I'm good!”

Megan Gill: I love that. That's incredible. Truly. It's amazing. Thank you, Alia. Thank you so much for chatting with me. This was so good for my soul, and I'm just really grateful for you for taking your time to talk with me.

Alia Parise: Yes, I'm grateful to be here. I really, really love talking about the subject. You can tell I'm very passionate, especially advocating for plus size. More and more companies are doing it. Not every company is doing it right, so that's my goal. It’s to try to help all the companies do it right. And it's like advocating for more plus size. Everybody wants to be included, and we want to feel cute in our clothes. We should not not have that because we're an 18 or whatever size. And so, this subject is really close to my heart and I'm glad you asked me to be here, and I'm glad to have talked to you today, Megan.

“ I'm so happy in my own body, and once you become so happy in your own skin, your own body, your own shape, you can get better at ignoring those other voices (mass media, the random person, you know, the hater on Instagram who's got no life). You just become so strong and so happy in your own shape. For example, I always think I look great in the mirror, and then I turn around and see myself in a camera. I was like, ‘Hmm, I'm actually bigger than I thought I was.’ But it doesn't bother me because the  camera adds 10 pounds. It doesn't distribute it. It's not fair.”

- Alia Parise

For three years, Alia worked as a graphic designer at a lingerie company and accomplished many things and expanded her skill set. From working in the fashion industry, she discovered fit modeling and found that it suited her! She began my fit modeling career eight years ago, and while the work wasn’t immediate, she gained experience slowly but steadily. She’s fit with a variety of clients from swimwear to lingerie to athleisure to luxury lifestyle brands. Every client, individual, and company she’s worked with was a blessing and an excellent learning experience. They were varied in their direction and execution, and it gave her a great opportunity to expand her horizons and accomplish many different projects and goals. Being different is fun; being ordinary is boring. Look at everything for what it can be!

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While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers.