s2e20: When Ukrainians express discomfort by being pushed into a space with a Russian person without consent, some foreigners label it 'hatred' or 'russophobia.' When Ukrainians talk about Russian society's centuries-old patterns of serial abusive behavior towards their neighbors, we are dismissed as 'emotional' and 'hysterical.' Could it be just a lack of empathy or education? Lia Dostlieva, a Ukrainian artist, anthropologist, and our featured Ukrainian for this episode, wants you all to recognize in this attitude the old Western colonial tradition of marginalizing 'uncomfortable' voices. Together we decided to do a small workshop on talking and listening to Ukrainians without falling into colonial tropes.