"For me, the human experiences is a universal one and the book aims to address core aspects of something that we all experience. So fear, learning boundaries, identity, all those different principles. [ ] So this universal human experience, I think is really, really important." Rachel Morris

Rachel Morris and I explore what she describes as this universal human experience — the fear, uncertainty, identity shifts and emotional complexity that show up whenever humans move through transition. Drawing on her book Working Mother and years of practice-based research, Rachel shares why the principles she writes about aren’t just relevant to parents, but to leaders, teams, and anyone navigating change at work. We talk about the discomfort of the “neutral zone”, why emotions thrive when hidden, the illusion of professionalism, and the cost of rewarding busyness over being. This conversation invites a more human way of leading — one rooted in curiosity, courage, emotional literacy, and the recognition that we’re not meant to navigate life or work alone.

As an experienced qualified coach, Rachel Morris supports professionals to gain clarity about who they really are rightnow, where they are aiming to be, and how they are going toget there. She believes every relationship has a unique dynamic andapproaches every learner with the intention of enabling themto reach their own level of internal satisfaction. In doing this,they increase personal focus, motivation and productivity. As a global business coach and bestselling author she brings20 years of coaching experience working with organisations to any conversation.

Through her website: www.motionlearning.com

On LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/rachelmorrismotionlearning

Resources Mentioned

Working Mother by Rachel Morris

How Emotions are Made by Lisa Feldman Barrett

Permission to Feel & RULER tool by Professor Marc Brackett 

A House of Dynamite on Netflix

New York Times article https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/03/21/opinion/teen-youth-focus-group.html

"It's not an emptiness or a void, it's actually full of possibility. And once I started to explore it, how they explained it, the Japanese concept is about when you listen to music, there's always space between the notes. And then if you apply that to a book or a page, there's always space between the words. So that space, that white space, another way of describing, it is necessary." Susan Ni Chriodain

David, Susanne and I come together for a wide-ranging conversation about liminal spaces - the spaces between words, seasons, endings and beginnings. We explore why these in-between moments matter, why we often rush to fill them, and what becomes possible when we allow pause, uncertainty and not-knowing. The conversation covers:

This episode is an invitation to notice what we usually overlook and to consider what might emerge when we willingly inhabit the space between.

Dr Susanne Evans is an organisation change consultant, trainer, coach and researcher on a mission to change the way that transformations are managed in organisations. She founded Feldspar Consulting in 2007 to help her clients lead change in a more human, effective way. As well as writing and speaking about organisation change, Susanne hosts open storytelling workshops, supporting organisations and individuals in writing a compelling story for themselves. She is the author of ChangeStories and the host of the popular ChangeStories podcast.

David Lee is a coach, consultant, workshop facilitator, keynote speaker, and author, who loves creating a win/win/win relationship between people and the organizations they work for. He helps leaders and leadership teams learn how to become "people whisperers", and by doing so, increase their ability to make their organization THE choice for "A List Talent" and inspire the best in their people.

Connect with Susanne

On LinkedIn

Through her website: Feldspar Consulting

Listen to Change Stories podcast

Connect with David

On LinkedIn 

Through his website Human Nature at Work

Resources Mentioned:

Dr Seuss, Oh, The Places You'll Go

The In-Between Book, Christopher Willard, Olivia Weisser, Alison Oliver

Tending To Endings Cards https://www.tendingtoendings.com/ 

"I'm only a small cog in this. I'm developing this thought about trying to do good, but we can't all do it alone. If we can all collectively hold hands and all just have this thought that if we can do good in this world… I do think that there's a lot to be said for farming and fresh produce because it's feeding the world in a sustainable manner and it's doing good." Max MacGillivray

Max MacGillivray and I begin with stories about fresh produce and taste memories, before moving into how society has become disconnected from where food comes from. We explore farming as a vocation, global food systems, ultra-processed foods, health outcomes, education and the role of large food multinationals. We also discuss recruitment and leadership within agriculture and fresh produce, cross-sector learning, the value of conversation and storytelling and why showing the human side of food production matters. We reflect on travel, networking as human connection and the opportunities that open up when people step beyond familiar paths.

Max MacGillivray is an executive recruiter and founder of Redfox Executive Selection, specialising in mid-management to board hires across fresh produce, fresh foods, agri-business and retail in the UK and internationally. He created The Great Fruit & Veg Adventure—a Triumph motorbike ride from London to Cape Town (18 countries, 18,000 km), visiting 50+ fresh-produce businesses, followed in real time by 250,000 schoolchildren, and honoured with the UK Prime Minister’s Points of Light award. Max also founded Beanstalk Global, a media platform for the international fresh-food sector. Its mantra: “Create the conversation, don’t just be part of it.” Through broadcasts, interviews and partnerships, Beanstalk Global champions the people behind fresh food and connects purpose-led clients with high-impact opportunities.

Connect with Max

Through his website www.beanstalk.global  

https://www.facebook.com/beanstalk.global

On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxmacgillivray/

https://www.beanstalkmedia.co.uk/

Resources Mentioned:

Jeremy Clarkson and increasing public interest in farming and agriculture

Henry Dimbleby and the UK National Food Strategy

Pink Lady Apples 

International Fresh Produce Association (IFPA) and the International Fresh Produce & Floral Show (Anaheim)

Leaf Open Farm Sunday – UK farming initiative

"A new type of thinking is essential if humankind is to survive and reach higher levels." Marsha Ramroop (quoting Einstein)

Marsha Ramroop explains how her purpose, giving the unheard voice a place to speak, first emerged during her broadcasting career, and how it now shapes her work in cultural intelligence and organisational change. We explore inclusion and why under-representation is a symptom of deeper cultural and behavioural issues. Marsha introduces Cultural Intelligence (CQ) and its four capabilities, showing how they help us work and relate effectively across difference. We also discuss the wider context of global uncertainty, polarisation and the need for, as Marsha quotes, “a new type of thinking”. Throughout, she emphasises personal responsibility, listening with intent, and the impact small behavioural shifts can have on teams, organisations and society. This conversation is packed, practical and human - an invitation to look inward, listen more deeply and consider the behaviours that help everyone feel valued, respected and included.

Marsha Ramroop is a global award-winning organisational inclusion strategist, author, and speaker with a passion for driving change across sectors - particularly in the built and natural environments - with her own consultancy Unheard Voice. Marsha’s book Building Inclusion: Practical Guide to Inclusion in Architecture & the Built Environment speaks about how to deliver inclusion; how we attract a diversity of people to our professions and organisations, retain that diversity, create inclusion in our services and engage external stakeholders inclusively. It was Highly Commended in the 2025 Business Book Awards. She had a 30-year career in broadcasting, bringing inclusion to BBC newsrooms through journalism, before turning to organisational culture consultancy.

Through her websites

www.unheardvoice.co.uk  

www.buildinginclusion.info

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marsharamroop

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/marsharamroop/

Resources

Building Inclusion by Marsha Ramroop

Marcus Ryder & Lenny Henry — Manifesto for TV and Beyond (UK demographic data from the Office for National Statistics)

Dale Carnegie — How to Win Friends and Influence People

Paulo Freire & Adam Rutherford

The Doomsday Clock

Leading Beyond the Numbers by Susan Ní Chríodáin

Business Book Awards 2025

“But getting back to the power of proximity, let's say I would meet people on Twitter … then we would all go to South by Southwest Interactive, the big tech conference in Austin … Suddenly we'd meet in person and as I wrote about in my book, it's hugs, high fives, handshakes.” Dave Delaney

Dave Delaney joins me to talk about the thing that most connects us - communication. From improv stages to keynote stages, from podcasting to parenting, Dave’s career has been about helping people connect with humour, heart and humanity. We talk about the roots of communication, how “nice and” can change a workplace, and what happens when we forget that listening is about understanding, not just replying. Dave shares insights on how improv principles like acceptance and curiosity can transform teamwork and leadership. We also explore networking and the power of proximity: why meeting in person still matters more than ever in an age of AI and automation. And yes, we even touch on the slightly alarming prospect of not knowing whether your boss (or TV presenter) is human.

Dave Delaney is a communication expert, keynote speaker, author, and host of the ADHD Wise Squirrels podcast.

Connect with Dave

To connect with Dave use this link: https://davedelaney.me/linkage

Resources Mentioned

New Business Networking by Dave Delaney

Wise Squirrels Podcast hosted by Dave Delaney

“80 years ago, the Institute for Functional Medicine started collecting the data, doing the research, and that's their number one priority, that it's really evidence-based and you will have clinical studies for everything. But then they also wanted it to be patient-centred. They wanted to listen to the unique story of everybody." Blanka Campbell

Blanka Campbell and I talk about the wisdom — and limits — of listening to our body. A functional nutritionist and wellbeing coach, Blanka helps people understand their health through the lens of functional nutrition and everyday life. We talk about eating the rainbow, chaos in the gut and why every symptom tells part of a bigger story. Blanka reminds us that it’s not enough to simply listen — we have to translate what we hear into choices that support balance, energy and focus. Blanka reminds us that health isn’t about perfection — it’s about function, balance, and care. And that wellbeing isn’t something we add on; it’s the way we live. 

Blanka Campbell is a functional medicine practitioner and holistic nutritionist, a hormone yoga therapist (Dinah Rodrigues), and a single mum of two teenagers trying to balance it all. 

Connect with Blanka

Through her website www.blankacampbell.com where you will find all the links to social media

Resources Mentioned

The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk

Biocare, UK, for supplements

Sam Allen, episode 120 Reconnecting

"My interest is beyond that. Beyond the solar system. Of course I have this interest in Mars, but what I'm really interested in is the post planetary condition of humankind.” Angelo Vermeulen

Angelo Vermeulen and I talk about imagination, exploration, and what it means to lead and collaborate beyond boundaries. Angelo is  a scientist and a visual artist, who loves to build crossovers between those two worlds. He shares how exploring deeply across disciplines — from biology to philosophy to design — shapes the way we understand creativity, leadership and the future of humanity. His work invites us to think not just about life on Earth, but what life beyond the solar system might look like. We talk about creativity as a universal skill, leadership in extreme environments, finding courage to express our ideas and why co-creation demands vulnerability and trust. Angelo shares stories from his time leading a Mars simulation in Hawaii, collaborating with ESA on space systems design and exploring the evolution of our species, including IVF in space. 

Angelo Vermeulen is a space biologist, complex systems engineer, and artist who integrates science, design, and ecology to explore the future of human life in extreme environments. At TU Delft, he develops bio-inspired systems for space settlement, including self-replicating architecture and bioregenerative life support. As CTO of SpaceBorn United, he leads the development of the world’s first IVF incubator designed for space, advancing research on human reproduction beyond Earth. He co-founded SEADS, a transdisciplinary collective whose work has been exhibited across continents and flown to the International Space Station. In 2013, he commanded the first NASA-funded HI-SEAS Mars simulation, and in 2022, he reached the top 6% in the ESA astronaut selection process. With over 60 publications and multiple fellowships—including from TED and Parsons—Angelo’s work bridges art and science to challenge how we inhabit our shared future in space and on Earth.

Connect with Angelo:

Through his website: https://www.angelovermeulen.net

On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelovermeulen

References:

Sir Ken Robinson’s TED Talk “Do Schools Kill Creativity?"

Episode 203 All Stories are Useful with Jay Perry

"As it turns out being authentically me means more sales when it comes to marketing and everything. So that was the big lesson I learned early on. It took a very tough learning experience. But that sense of being yourself for all its flaws and all its good things as well that was a huge learning for me." Eamon FitzGerald

Eamon FitzGerald and I talk about wine. Eamon has a passion for connecting great wine makers with people who appreciate their wine and loves to share the winemaker's stories. With his new venture, WineSpark, he has created a business model that makes amazing wines accessible and affordable to regular people. Eamon spent 10 years with Naked Wines in the UK and became Managing Director within a year of joining the fast growing company. He talks openly about taking on this role at a young age, and how he learned to lead and grow a business. As he says businesses are a complex beast but the key is to focus on some simple things - not rocket science. We talk about the Customer Happiness Team and culture at Naked Wines, being yourself and the importance of quality and service for customers. Eamon also talks about wine production costs and shares some stories from his extensive travels. 

Eamon FitzGerald loves discovering talented winemakers and sharing their wines and stories with his friends. He did this for 10 years when he was MD and Global Wine Director for Naked Wines in the UK and US. He spent most of his time hunting down the best independent winemakers and setting them up in business. Now back in Ireland he has set up WineSpark. WineSpark is a community of passionate wine drinkers and winemakers aiming to make the world’s best wines accessible and affordable to everyone. Eamon has worked for Decanter magazine, and on the side of a mountain in France picking grapes. He also worked in financial services in London and Dublin for Accenture. 

Connect with Eamon

Through his website WineSpark

On Instagram

On LinkedIn

Resources Mentioned

If Disney Ran Your Hospital: 9 1/2 Things You Would Do Differently by Fred Lee

Legacy by James Kerr

Frederico Cerelli winemaker

Johan Kruger winemaker

Naked Wines

“There’s probably something about confidence that I back myself, that I can do more or I can strengthen this particular skill. I can learn to do a new thing.” Julie Smith

Julie Smith and I talk about the realities of confidence, humility and self-doubt and how these play out in both life and leadership. Julie describes confidence as “trust in yourself” and reminds us that nobody feels confident all the time, even if it looks that way from the outside. She highlights the hidden cost of overworking and exhaustion, potentially even burnout, to cover self-doubt and why recognising this “self-doubt tax” is so important. We also explore growth and learning, how leaders influence the mood and mindset of their teams, the difference it makes when someone says “I’d back us,” and how humility and confidence can co-exist in powerful ways. 

Julie Smith is an executive coach with 3 decades of experience in supporting leaders and leadership teams. She is the author of award-winning book Coach Yourself Confident, and is currently writing book number two, Contagious Confidence.

****Coach Yourself Confident won Business Self Development Book of the Year at the 2025 UK Business Book Awards. Congratulations Julie!

Connect with Julie

On LinkedIn

Through her website: Talent Sprout

Resources Mentioned

Coach Yourself Confident by Julie Smith

Business Book Awards 

This is a special episode to mark the 5th anniversary and the launch of the audio book version of Leading Beyond the Numbers. 

In this episode I share:

5 reflections from 5 years of podcasting:

A short interview by Rob Lawrence recorded in JMS Group Studios at the end of two days spent fully immersed in recording the audio version of Leading Beyond the Numbers: How accounting for Emotions Tips the Balance at Work 

Susan Ní Chríodáin is founder of Beyond the Numbers, a consulting, facilitation and coaching practice dedicated to transforming how we interact at work by placing humanity at the heart of leadership. Susan is an award-winning chartered accountant with a Big 4 background, but her career has been anything but traditional. With experience spanning continents and industries, she has combined her financial expertise with an understanding of human dynamics to help leaders and teams thrive. As the author of Leading Beyond the Numbers and host of the Life Beyond the Numbers podcast, Susan champions a fresh approach to leadership — one that embraces the power of emotions, trust and honest conversations to create workplaces where people and results thrive.

Connect with me: 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susannichriodain/

Substack: https://substack.com/@thewholeequation

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/susan.ni.chriodain/

Resources Mentioned:

Leading Beyond the Numbers - Audio Book

Leading Beyond the Numbers - Print edition

Rob Lawrence 

JMS Group