Literacy Mindset

Literacy Mindset

By Jeff PendletonTechnologyEducation
Download on the App Store

Literacy Mindset episodes

  • Oklahoma Edition: Embracing Intervention and Individualization in Rural Education


    In this episode of Literacy Mindset, host Jeff Pendleton speaks with Richard Kirksey, the newly appointed principal at Moreland High School in rural northwest Oklahoma. With a background that spans corporate creative work, multimedia design, and classroom teaching, Richard brings a unique perspective to educational leadership—one rooted in storytelling, relationship-building, and community connection.

    He shares how Moreland’s small-school setting allows for personalized intervention, creative teaching strategies, and deep collaboration between teachers, parents, and students. From using food to connect with literature to leveraging technology without losing the human touch, Richard offers practical ways to spark a love for reading while addressing foundational skill gaps in grades 7–12. The conversation also dives into the benefits and challenges of small-town schools, the role of community in student success, and the balance between embracing innovation and protecting personal connection.


    Key Moments


    04:16 Storytelling and Literacy Education Strategy

    07:42 Improving Student Understanding Strategy


    10:35 Small Town School Dynamics

    13:55 Balancing Technology in Education


    17:31 Oklahoma Education: Misinformation Concerns

    19:58 "Unlimited Knowledge: Exciting Yet Intimidating"


    Why You’ll Love This Episode

    • A Fresh Leadership Perspective – Hear how a principal with a creative industry background applies storytelling and design thinking to school leadership.

    • Small-School Advantages – Learn how tight-knit communities can deliver highly personalized instruction and stronger family engagement.

    • Practical Literacy Interventions – Discover creative, hands-on strategies for keeping older students engaged in reading and closing skill gaps.

    • Technology with Purpose – See how Moreland is exploring tech tools without replacing the personal relationships that drive learning.

    • Real Talk on Education’s Future – Richard shares candid insights on misinformation, the promise of AI, and why today’s students have unprecedented opportunities to learn.


    Connect with Richard Kirksey

    LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardkirksey


    Website: https://www.mooreland.k12.ok.us/


    Follow & Subscribe


    Host LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-pendleton-2a614b26/

    Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindplayeducation

    Company Website: http://MindPlay.com


    Enjoyed this episode?
    Subscribe to The Literacy Mindset Podcast and leave a review!

    Share with educators, school leaders, and literacy champions passionate about student success, especially in Oklahoma and beyond.

    22 min
  • The Role of Digital and Physical Libraries in Modern Literacy Instruction


    In this episode, host Jeff Pendleton sits down with Josh Aston, Director of Secondary Curriculum at Atascadero Unified School District in California, to explore what it takes to foster literacy in today’s evolving educational landscape. Josh shares his journey from small-town Idaho social studies teacher to curriculum director on the California coast, and how his diverse experience offers a unique lens on literacy across multiple subjects—not just English Language Arts.

    Together, Jeff and Josh dive into the importance of cross-curricular collaboration, tackling literacy challenges in secondary schools, and how comprehension and critical thinking are at the heart of deeper learning. They also discuss strategies for supporting students who need additional help with foundational skills like phonics, the role of both physical and digital libraries, and the complexities of implementing new curriculum and AI tools in the classroom.


    Tune in for real-world insights, practical approaches, and a thoughtful look at how educators are working to bridge learning gaps and empower students for success—no matter what the future brings.

    Key Moments


    05:19 "Cross-Disciplinary Collaboration in Education"

    08:18 Deeper Learning and Knowledge Transfer


    09:29 "District Focuses on Literacy Development"

    13:54 Enhancing Curriculum with Language Support

    16:12 New Curriculum and ELL Support

    19:48 AI in Education: Embrace or Resist?

    23:16 AI Future: Excitement and Apprehension


    Why You’ll Love This Episode


    Josh Aston, Director of Secondary Curriculum at Atascadero Unified brings a fresh, real-world lens to literacy in secondary education. With roots in social studies and a passion for cross-curricular collaboration, Josh shares how his district is tackling literacy gaps post-pandemic through smart curriculum adoption, in-class interventions, and a focus on comprehension and transfer-level learning.

    You'll hear practical strategies for supporting struggling readers in grades 6–12, the role of digital tools (and physical books), and a thoughtful take on how AI is reshaping the classroom. It’s a candid, insightful conversation that reminds us: literacy is everyone’s job—and the right tools make all the difference.


    Connect with Josh Aston:

    • Website: https://www.atasusd.org/
    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-aston-aa609890


    Follow Us On:

    • Host LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-pendleton-2a614b26/
    • Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindplayeducation
    • Company Website: https://mindplay.com/

    Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Literacy Mindset and leave us a review!

    Share this episode with educators, administrators, and advocates who are passionate about improving literacy and student success.

    25 min
  • Rethinking Foundational Skills and Fluency Across Grade Levels

    In this special episode from our Oklahoma miniseries, hosts Jeff and MindPlay CEO Jeff Pendleton sit down with Dr. Susan Wray, principal of Wellston Elementary School in Wellston, Oklahoma. Dr. Ray brings a unique perspective with her background in both science and elementary education, as well as experience working at the state level.


    Together, they explore the powerful intersection of literacy and science, discussing how reading comprehension is foundational not only for ELA, but also for students’ success in science and math. Dr. Wray shares insights into modern literacy instruction, from the evolution of reading science and terminology for teachers to the practical challenges of supporting foundational reading skills, fluency, and intervention across grade levels.

    In this heartfelt conversation, Dr. Wray also opens up about her own struggles as a young reader and how that experience fuels her drive for educational equity. You’ll hear about Wellston’s innovative approaches to assessment, MTSS implementation, and building a school culture where every student feels included and empowered. If you’re passionate about literacy, school improvement, and the transformative power of partnerships in education, this episode is packed with wisdom and inspiration.

    Key Moments


    03:38 Integrating Science and ELA Standards

    10:00 Early Education Assessment Tools


    13:10 Addressing Learning Gaps with MTSS

    15:27 "Enhancing Teacher Engagement with NWEA"


    19:04 Priorities: Student Safety and Education

    21:35 "Excited for Educational Partnerships"


    Connect with Susan Wray


    LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susan-wray-ed-d-0728574

    Website: http://www.wellstonps.org/


    Follow & Subscribe


    Host LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-pendleton-2a614b26/


    Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindplayeducation

    Company Website: http://MindPlay.com


    Enjoyed this episode?
    Subscribe to The Literacy Mindset Podcast and leave a review!

    Share with educators, school leaders, and literacy champions passionate about student success, especially in Oklahoma and beyond.

    24 min
  • From Spanish Class to Special Ed: Dr. Michael Taylor on Literacy for All


    In this episode of Literacy Mindset, Dr. Michael Taylor, Director of Special Education for Bryant School District in Arkansas, shares how his unique journey—from high school Spanish teacher to special education leader—shapes his approach to literacy and learning.


    Dr. Taylor dives into why language development in early childhood is a critical predictor of reading success and how his district is confronting that head-on. You’ll hear how his team uses data, structured intervention, and science of reading strategies to support students with disabilities—and why technology and AI are poised to redefine what equitable literacy support looks like.


    With clarity, honesty, and a touch of futurism (robotic reading aids, anyone?), Dr. Taylor brings real talk about the barriers kids face and the systemic shifts needed to overcome them.


    Why You’ll Love This Episode:

    • You want a front-row seat to how special education is transforming. Dr. Taylor offers a thoughtful, systems-level view of how districts can use IDEA, science of reading, and data to drive better outcomes for all learners.
    • You’ve heard a lot about early language exposure—but want to know how it actually affects reading. Learn why Dr. Taylor sees language delay as one of the most underestimated literacy barriers—and what schools can do about it.
    • You’re curious how technology, from assistive devices to AI, can support struggling readers. Dr. Taylor paints a vision of tech not as a crutch, but as a catalyst for independence and confidence.
    • You care about real-world, actionable strategies. Whether you’re a district leader, educator, or advocate, this episode offers grounded, practical insights into making literacy equitable and achievable for every student.

    Key Moments


    04:53 Understanding Language Delays in Students


    09:16 Balancing State and Federal Education


    13:29 "Arkansas' Literacy Education Challenges"


    14:28 "Improved Teacher Awareness in Reading"


    17:46 Student Mobility Challenges


    22:48 AI Transforming Dining and Education


    Connect with Dr. Michael Taylor


    LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-michael-taylor-97b45523


    Website: https://www.bryantschools.org/


    Follow & Subscribe


    Host LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-pendleton-2a614b26/


    Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindplayeducation


    Company Website: http://MindPlay.com


    Enjoyed this episode?
    Subscribe to The Literacy Mindset Podcast and leave a review!


    Share with educators, school leaders, and literacy champions passionate about student success—especially in Oklahoma and beyond.

    25 min
  • Oklahoma Edition: Creating Literacy Equity Through Special Education & Community Collaboration

    In this episode from our Oklahoma series, host Jeff Pendleton sits down with Susan L. Jones, Director of Special Education at Marlow Public Schools in Oklahoma. With a background that spans from deaf education interpreting to leading district-wide special education efforts, Susan brings a deeply human perspective on literacy equity, early intervention, and the evolving role of community partnerships.

    Susan shares how her journey shaped her understanding of phonics instruction, especially for students with unique learning needs. She offers a candid look at the challenges rural schools face—like limited staffing and funding—and how creative solutions, from adding reading specialists to forming regional transition consortiums, are helping meet students where they are. This conversation highlights how small schools can make a big impact with the right mindset, collaboration, and heart.

    Whether you’re a special education leader, general educator, or advocate for inclusive learning, this episode offers actionable insights and inspiration from the front lines of rural education.

    Key Moments


    05:04 Understanding Literacy for Hearing Impaired


    08:29 Voice in Curriculum for Diverse Students


    10:55 "Effective Teamwork in Education"


    14:44 "Rural Schools: Creative Funding Partnerships"


    16:39 Supporting Transitions in Education


    21:37 Rising Awareness of Disabilities


    23:23 "Passionate Podcast Discussion"


    Why You’ll Love This Episode:

    • Inclusive Literacy Strategy – Discover how Susan Jones bridges the gap between general education and special education with a focus on equitable reading access.


    • Early Literacy Lessons from Special Ed – Learn how phonological awareness and decoding are reimagined for diverse learners, including those who are deaf or hard of hearing.


    • Community Collaboration – Hear how rural districts are joining forces to create regional programs, transition fairs, and post-secondary opportunities for students with disabilities.


    • Leadership with Empathy – Susan’s leadership philosophy is rooted in belief, data, and adaptability—essential qualities for modern educators.


    • A Refreshingly Honest View – From policy concerns to optimism about growing awareness and community support, this episode strikes a powerful balance between realism and hope.


    Connect with Susan L Jones


    LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susan-jones-b22aa62b8


    Website: https://www.marlow.k12.ok.us/


    Follow & Subscribe


    Host LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-pendleton-2a614b26/


    Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindplayeducation


    Company Website: http://MindPlay.com


    Enjoyed this episode?
    Subscribe to The Literacy Mindset Podcast and leave a review!


    Share with educators, school leaders, and literacy champions passionate about student success—especially in Oklahoma and beyond.

    25 min
  • Innovative Approaches to Literacy: Balancing Core Curriculum and Student Needs

    In this episode of Literacy Mindset with Dr. Lisa Hill, host Jeff Pendleton sits down with Dr. Lisa Hill, Director of Instruction at Canyon ISD in Texas, for an insightful conversation about what it truly takes to develop strong readers and writers in our schools. Dr. Hill dives into her district’s approach to core instruction, emphasizing the importance of both reading and writing as critical literacy skills, from early phonics to advanced comprehension and composition.


    Together, Jeff and Dr. Hill examine how instructional decisions are made at the district and building levels, the challenges teachers face in meeting the diverse needs of students, and the crucial role of teacher autonomy in lesson delivery. They discuss the nuances of assessment, why it shouldn’t just be about multiple choice or written outputs, and the importance of oral comprehension and retelling as part of a comprehensive evaluation of literacy.

    Dr. Hill also explores the impact of technology and AI on teaching writing, the importance of supporting teachers at every stage of their careers, and why professional development is a continuous process. With valuable insights on personalizing instruction, bridging skills gaps, and nurturing a complete literacy culture, this episode is packed with inspiration and practical takeaways for educators and education leaders alike.


    Key Moments

    04:23 Defining Student Success Goals

    07:53 Teaching Reading: Input to Output

    12:10 Comprehension Drives Composition Skills

    13:14 Evaluating Oral vs. Written Comprehension

    19:43 Balancing Personalized and Cohort Learning

    23:01 Teaching Autonomy and Professional Growth

    24:52 Understanding Students as Key to Teaching
    29:43 Future of Professional Development

    31:39 Evolving Literacy in the AI Era

    34:06 "Removing Phonological Barriers"

    Why You’ll Love This Episode:

    What I love most about this episode is how Dr. Lisa Hill speaks to the heart of what it means to teach literacy today, not just reading, but writing, thinking, speaking, and listening. From decoding in middle school to the role of AI, she pushes for a whole-child, whole-teacher approach, grounded in support, autonomy, and high expectations. It’s honest, practical, and inspiring.

    Connect with Dr. Lisa Hill
    LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-hill-ed-d-90b4a516b/
    Website: https://canyonisd.net/561983_3?personID=277142 


    Follow & Subscribe
    Host LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-pendleton-2a614b26/
    Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindplayeducation
    Company Website: http://MindPlay.com

    Enjoyed this episode?
    Subscribe to The Literacy Mindset Podcast and leave us a review!
    Share this episode with educators, district leaders, and literacy advocates who are passionate about student success.

    35 min
  • Oklahoma Edition :Rebuilding Literacy, SEL, and Instructional Equity in Rural Oklahoma with Dr Bobbi Gillham

    In this episode of Literacy Mindset, host Jeff Pendleton talks with Dr. Bobbi Gillham, principal of Pansy Kidd Middle School in Poteau Public Schools, Oklahoma. Dr. Gillham brings 27 years of experience and a multifaceted career across elementary, curriculum leadership, and now middle school leadership. Her passion for literacy, data-driven instruction, and trauma-informed strategies shines through in this insightful conversation.


    Dr. Gillham shares how her district has evolved from a whole-language focus to reintroducing phonics and phonological instruction as part of Oklahoma’s larger embrace of the Science of Reading. She highlights how building-wide literacy interventions, data analysis, and targeted reading supports are helping to close gaps, especially for English learners, students with IEPs, and those from low-income backgrounds.


    Whether you're a principal, teacher, or education advocate, this episode delivers practical insights into foundational literacy, social-emotional learning, and site-level leadership in action.


    Key Moments:

    01:01 Dr. Bobbi Gillham’s 27-year journey in education


    02:11 Launching intervention programs and a love of data


    03:49 Curriculum leadership and teacher training impact


    05:42 Transitioning back to the site level to start a new 5–6 middle school


    06:07 Moving away from whole language to explicit phonics instruction


    07:12 The power of consistent, foundational skill instruction across classrooms


    10:04 How 5th and 6th-grade students receive reading intervention


    12:14 Supporting English learners and students with IEPs


    14:22 Curriculum collaboration with district support


    17:09 Creating a distinct school culture and strong SEL programs


    19:56 Concerns about leadership, funding, and teacher retention


    20:58 The bright side: statewide collaboration and momentum in education


    Why You’ll Love This Episode:


    • Literacy Leadership in Action
      – Hear how foundational literacy is supported even beyond the early grades.
    • Data-Informed Decisions – Learn how one school leader uses data to improve interventions and instruction.
    • Trauma-Informed SEL – See how social-emotional support is embedded in school culture.
    • Serving Diverse Learners – Discover how Poteau supports EL, IEP, and high-poverty student populations.
    • Educational Optimism – Dr. Gillham’s reflections on the future of Oklahoma schools offer hope and direction.


    Connect with Poteau Public Schools:

    • Website: https://www.poteau.k12.ok.us/

    Follow Us On:

    • Host LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-pendleton-2a614b26/
    • Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindplayeducation
    • Company Website: https://mindplay.com/


    Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Literacy Mindset and leave us a review!


    Share this episode with principals, teachers, and literacy champions across rural and urban communities.

    23 min
  • Fostering Biliteracy and Collaboration in Schools with Dr. Patricia Mondragón-Doty

    Welcome to another episode of MindPlay’s Literacy Mindset, where we dive into the heart of education with leaders who are shaping the future of literacy. In this episode, host Jeff Pendleton sits down with Dr. Patricia Mondragón-Doty, Director of Instruction, Curriculum, and Assessment at California’s Oak Grove School District. Patricia brings a wealth of experience spanning classroom teaching, dual language programs, and building administration, all the way to district-wide leadership.

    Together, they explore the unique challenges and opportunities of building literacy frameworks for diverse, multilingual student communities. You’ll hear Patricia reflect on how her approach to literacy shifts from the classroom to the district office, the power of dual language models in forging student camaraderie, and why flexible, data-driven curriculum adoption matters for schools. Plus, she shares practical insights on supporting students who still face foundational reading gaps beyond third grade, the critical role of collaboration among teachers, and why a humanistic, asset-based view of students’ language backgrounds is essential for 21st-century success.

    Patricia also gives us a glimpse into the future of literacy education, highlighting the continued importance of teacher voice, interdependence in school communities, and the need to adapt as student populations and technology evolve. Whether you’re an educator, administrator, or advocate for multilingual learners, this episode is packed with thoughtful conversation and actionable takeaways.

    Key Moments


    00:00 From Principal to Literacy Director


    05:14 Curriculum Selection and Pilot Rollout


    08:48 Ensuring Principals Access Accurate Data


    10:30 Data-Driven Teaching Strategies


    14:55 Dual Language Programs Foster Camaraderie


    17:42 Joyful Learning Through Language Strategies


    22:46 Teaching with Cognate Awareness


    24:57 Language Inclusivity in Classrooms


    29:33 Evolving Education at Oak Grove


    31:17 Collaboration for a Better Future


    Why You’ll Love This Episode


    If you believe that every child, regardless of language background deserves a rich, empowering literacy education, this episode will resonate deeply. Dr. Patricia Mondragón-Doty brings both heart and expertise to the table, unpacking how schools can honor linguistic diversity while raising the bar for academic success.


    Connect with Dr. Patricia Mondragon Doty

    LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patricia-mondrag
    Website: https://www.ogsd.net/departments/educational-services/curriculum-instruction-and-assessment

    Follow Us On

    Host LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-pendleton-2a614b26/
    Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindplayeducation
    Company Website: https://mindplay.com/

    Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe to Literacy Mindset and leave us a review!

    Share this episode with educators, parents, and advocates passionate about literacy and special education.

    33 min
  • Oklahoma Edition: Empowering Middle School Literacy Through Creativity and Community

    In this special Oklahoma Edition of The Literacy Mindset Podcast, host Jeff Pendleton sits down with Blaine Wise, Principal of Glenpool Middle School in Oklahoma, to explore how passion-driven leadership and creative collaboration are driving real results in student literacy. Wise shares his personal journey from social studies teacher to principal and how his deep roots in the Glenpool community shape his student-centered leadership approach.

    At Glenpool Middle School, reading success is nurtured through a blend of RTI strategies, creative literacy initiatives, and collaborative PLCs. From vocabulary walls to reading competitions featuring the school’s beloved therapy dog, Wise offers practical, heart-filled insight into how his team fosters literacy in engaging and innovative ways.

    He also reflects on balancing data and empathy, building a school culture rooted in trust, and empowering teachers to think boldly. This episode offers valuable takeaways for educators, administrators, and anyone passionate about literacy and community-driven leadership.

    Key Moments


    04:16 Inspiring Kids to Read


    08:27 Addressing Learning Gaps with RTI


    13:00 Passion Over Data in Education


    16:41 District Trust and Collaborative Leadership


    18:17 Pedagogy and Budget in Education


    20:52 Highlighting Positive School Achievements


    Why You’ll Love This Episode:

    • Literacy Beyond ELA – Learn how foundational reading skills impact all subjects and how one school addresses gaps in 7th and 8th grade.
    • Creative Engagement – Discover how dogs, wall art, and trophies are making reading fun and visible.
    • RTI with Heart – See how Glenpool leverages RTI time with thoughtful grouping and foundational skills focus.
    • Teacher Empowerment – Hear how school leadership encourages innovation and supports professional learning.
    • Optimism in Education – Wise’s vision is a hopeful reminder of the good happening inside school buildings across the country.


    Connect with Blaine Wise


    LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/blaine-wise-ba0476241


    Website: https://www.glenpoolps.org/


    Follow & Subscribe


    Host LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-pendleton-2a614b26/


    Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindplayeducation


    Company Website: http://MindPlay.com


    Enjoyed this episode?
    Subscribe to The Literacy Mindset Podcast and leave a review!


    Share with educators, school leaders, and literacy champions passionate about student success—especially in Oklahoma and beyond.

    23 min
  • Innovation Meets Literacy: Grounding EdTech in Human Connection with Danieli Parker


    In this episode of Literacy Mindset, host Jeff Pendleton is joined by Danieli Parker, Director of Innovation and Instructional Technology at Hallsville ISD in East Texas, for a no-fluff, all-substance conversation on how to elevate literacy without losing the foundational skills that make reading stick. Parker shares how her district balances instructional technology with a deep commitment to early literacy, decoding skills, and meaningful teacher-student relationships.


    Parker breaks down how Hallsville avoids using tech just for tech’s sake—opting instead for data-informed decisions about when to use human intervention and when digital tools can play a supportive role. She opens up about fostering a culture of innovation across her district: from flipped math classrooms and student-led collaboration to teachers designing their own PD sessions and presenting at local conferences.


    She also digs into what it takes to create true psychological safety for educators—starting with trust, modeled risk-taking, and principal-level buy-in. From personalized coaching to district-wide mini conferences, she’s helping build a system where innovation spreads organically—and literacy gains follow.


    Key Moments
    00:00 "Literacy Begins with Relationships and Reading Foundations"
    03:45 "Technology with Purpose, Not Just for Show"
    05:35 "Strategic RTI: Choosing People or Programs Based on Data"
    07:58 "Innovation Beyond Devices—Classroom Culture Shifts"
    10:27 "From Teacher Excitement to Districtwide Fire"
    12:43 "Creating Safe-to-Try Spaces for Teachers"
    15:40 "The Role of Principals in Literacy Innovation"
    22:30 "Structured Support for Older Readers with Phonological Gaps"
    27:35 "Navigating Personal Device Use in Schools"
    30:05 "A Vision for Classrooms That Celebrate Process Over Perfection"


    Why You’ll Love This Episode:
    Danieli Parker doesn’t just talk about innovation—she builds the conditions for it. Her message is clear: the best tools are only as good as the culture they're used in, and real literacy change begins with investing in people. Whether you're a district leader, literacy coach, or tech director, this episode will challenge you to rethink professional development, classroom design, and the human side of instructional change.


    Connect with Danieli Parker
    Website: https://www.hallsvilleisd.net


    Follow & Subscribe
    Host LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-pendleton-2a614b26/
    Company LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindplayeducation
    Company Website: http://MindPlay.com


    Enjoyed this episode?
    Subscribe to The Literacy Mindset Podcast and leave us a review!
    Share this episode with educators, district leaders, and literacy advocates who are passionate about student success.

    35 min

About Literacy Mindset

From the publisher's feed

The MindPlay podcast brings together education leaders to explore current and future K-12 instruction. Focused on curriculum, teaching, and innovation, it offers insights into literacy, personalized…