HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. testified before the Senate on Thursday—and, well, it was rocky.

Under siege already for scaling back government support for vaccines, and for pushing out top leadership at his and other health agencies, Kennedy received a skeptical welcome from members of both parties. At times, it seemed to bother him, as he accused his detractors of being in the pocket of the pharmaceutical industry and rambled on incoherently about his views on the COVID vaccine, and Donald Trump’s handling of it. His explanation for why he fired now-ex CDC Director Susan Monarez left one Senator visibly confused. After three hours, Kennedy’s standing seemed as shaky as ever, with Republicans even expressing some alarm over the damage he was causing.

Sam, Will and Jonathan broke down Kennedy’s testimony in front of the Senate Finance Committee, while answering two fundamental questions: what does it mean for his own future and for the future of public health in America.