If you'd like to understand yourself, your partner, and your relationship better, the Enneagram can help you do that.
The Enneagram is a system for understanding the nine universal personality types. It holds within it a map for emotional wellness for each of the nine types, which is key to the body-mind-spirit continuum of overall wellness. When we understand our core type and the types of those closest to us, we can use that knowledge and understanding to improve our relationships.
Rosemary has spent almost 20 years studying (Enneagram certification in 2001 in MA program), teaching, speaking, and coaching privately with the Enneagram, locally and internationally, in venues that include women’s groups, businesses, holistic and spiritual centers, and cruise ship programs.
Committed to self-awareness and spiritual growth, she says “It is my deepest desire to assist all interested people to live more resourcefully in their relationships, especially in the foundational one with the self. Coaching them through the time-honored Enneagram to deepen self-awareness, compassion, and remember their connection to Spirit where they are safe, guided, and joyful, is among my greatest joys!”
Rosemary’s website: https://spiritdrivenliving.com/
Rosemary’s Enneagram book: Who You Are Meant to Be
Wagner Enneagram Personality Style Scales (WEPSS) https://www.wepss.com/buy.asp
International Enneagram Conference: https://www.internationalenneagram.org/2023-iea-global-conference-2/
Contact Rosemary: [email protected]
Karin’s Website: www.drcalde.com
Podcast Intro:
[00:00] Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love is Us.
Episode Intro:
[00:49] Karin: hello, everybody, and welcome. I'm really glad you're here. Today is part two of the Enneagram and Relationships. Now, if you haven't listened to part one, I recommend that you go back and listen to that one where I talk with Ein Slutsky about the Enneagram, what it is, and the nine different personality types. And in this episode, I had the privilege of speaking with Rosemary Hurwitz.
Rosemary has a deep understanding of the Enneagram, teaches classes about it, coaches with it. She's a sought-after speaker, and she wrote a bestselling book about it called Who You Are Meant to Be: The Enneagram Effect. She's very active in the Enneagram community, and she has been for about 20 years. She's also just a really nice person, and I loved spending time with her. So today we're going to go a bit deeper. We're going to talk about all the types, but also about how each type functions in the context of intimate relationships. Because when you know yourself and your partner well, you understand your motivations, your strengths, your challenges, how you react under stress, you're just going to do better.
During our conversation, Rosemary refers to Suzanne Stabil a few times, and Suzanne is another Enneagram expert who was on a podcast that Rosemary Mary had listened to. So she talks about that a little bit. She also mentions Jerry Wagner. Again, another Enneagram expert. And Jerry Wagner came up with a way of determining what your type is, and it's a pretty thorough assessment, and I found it to be the most accurate one that I have found. It does cost $15, but you get a pretty lengthy report that goes along with it with a lot of detail, so that's pretty nice. Rosemary also talks about throughout the episode, she talks about drawing from the high side and going to the low side of different types. And so I just want to explain a little bit about what she meant by that. Basically, we all have a core type, so my core type is type one. Now, when I'm doing really well, I'm really healthy, I'm using all my strengths. Then I tend to draw from type seven. And when I'm not doing so well, under a lot of stress in a state of would say, disease. Then I draw from the low side of type four, and each core type has their corresponding numbers that they draw from. And you can find that information either in Rosemary's book, which I highly recommend. There's also lots of information online about it, so I'll put that information in the show notes. I do recommend her book. It's great for people who are new to the Enneagram. It's also great for those who want a refresher, like me. So I found it really useful before this interview, and also after talking with Rosemary, I think I'm going to get certified. I am talking to her about taking some classes with her that would give me that official certification since I'm already using it a bit with some of my clients in sessions because it can be helpful. So, anyway, I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did, and I hope that you'll share it with others whom you think would enjoy it as well. Again, thanks for being here. Here we go.
Episode Transcript:
Karin: Welcome, Rosemary.
[04:22] Rosemary: Thank you, Karin. Thank you for having me.
[04:25] Karin: I've been looking forward to this, and I know that it's been a little bit challenging for us to find a date, but we finally did it, and you're here, so I'm so pleased. So I know you're not in your normal spot right now, so where are you in the world?
[04:43] Rosemary: I am in a pretty little spot called Elk Rapids near Traverse City, Michigan. We have a lake cottage that we dreamed of having. And after having a smaller one many years ago, 17 years ago, we moved over to this lake when my sister's mother in law, who was like a second mom to me, passed. And my family, it was offered to me because we were up here already and it just worked out. And so it's a dream. It's a sweet little cottage. It's not palatial, but it's right on a gorgeous lake called Elk Lake.
[05:22] Karin: Sounds really nice.
[05:24] Rosemary: It is. It's peaceful.
[05:26] Karin: Wonderful. And are you normally a Michigan resident?
[05:31] Rosemary: No. Yeah. Otherwise we are from a suburb of Chicago. We raised our I'm originally from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I grew up there and fell in love after college and year or so later moved to Chicago, where my then boyfriend was, and the rest is history. Four kids and a fourth grandbaby on the way.
[05:56] Karin: Wonderful. That's exciting.
[05:58] Rosemary: Yeah. We raised our kids in Chicago. I moved down shortly after we, like, about a year after we met, and it's sort of back and forth. Easy to go back and forth between Milwaukee and Chicago. So we did that, and then yeah, we just had a lot of fun in Chicago and got married in 81. So 41 years.
[06:18] Karin: Wow. Congratulations.
[06:20] Rosemary: 41 and a half. Yeah. Thank you. The enneagram has helped me.
[06:27] Karin: I can't wait to hear more about that. Tell us what you do for work.
[06:34] Rosemary: Well, my work is with the Enneagram. I am an Enneagram based life coach. I do workshops. I have done these for 20 years. 2002 was my first one, a Taste of the Enneagram. After receiving certification, I kind of had this deeper call to go back and to explore a Master of Arts in Pastoral Studies, but I didn't want to work at a church. I landed in the Holistic community, which suited me well. And I had been in business, so I also had some business accounts, but I was in the HR and corporate recruiting area for 25 years or 22 years. Then I switched over to this life coaching after receiving or in the middle of receiving the degree, and it's just been wonderful. I've been able to raise a family. I went back when my youngest was five, so starting a new career midlife is never easy. But it was so gratifying that I remember coming home and saying, oh, my God, Dale, I have to work with this. I was on fire. And he said, well, what are you going to do with that? And I said, Well, I don't know. I'm going to listen to this little voice inside of me that tells me to take it to whoever will listen to me and whoever will hear about it, whoever has ears to hear. At that time, that was 2002. People were saying things like, well, you're not going to really make a living teaching the Enneagram, or you're not going to really make a living coaching with the Enneagram. But I did it in tandem with raising a family, and I got plenty of work. I really did. Everybody I went to said, sure, you know, and I mean, I'm talking like high schools or lifelong learning colleges, park districts, women's living rooms, women's groups. Whoever I went to was just really taken with it and it resonated. So that fueled my fire. Right. I've probably had six different corporations that I've worked with, like Athletico, some smaller companies, but primarily the Holistic community.
[09:04] Karin: So what was it specifically about the Enneagram that spoke to you that said, this is something that can really help people?
[09:14] Rosemary: Well, I had had a clinical depression as a college freshman, and I write about it a little bit. Well, I wrote about it in my very first publication, which was no mistakes. How Adversity Can Change to Abundance. And I wrote about this clinical depression because it really was a powerful experience in my life. That was a compilation, an anthology type book, and with inspirational stories. And so my story was about this descent into darkness as a nursing student in my freshman year of college, and I was just very lost. And a lot of kids in college change majors. They don't like the school they're at. That was both my issues, but they don't fall apart. But I did. I fell apart, like, big time. I wanted to and had to probably go into a hospital and I was in this hospital for three months. I came home on weekends pretty much, but I was really sick. I had a very severe clinical depression, and it was really hard to get out of it. I mean, I got out of it and I became well. And later on, my dad said, you should write a book called How I Got Well and Stayed That Way. And I said, oh, dad, that's really sweet, but I'm a busy mom and I'm never going to do that. And then life is what happens when you're making other plans, as John Lennon says. So I did write a book, but it wasn't called that. It's called who you are meant to be. The enneagram effect. And it's on Amazon. And to answer your question, I wanted to bring this to other people because I knew I wasn't the only one that worked hard at my own individuation, as Young calls it. Even though other kids didn't fall apart, maybe in college like I did, when they're changing course, I'm sure they had issues or problems. Maybe some of those kids in my generation were doing drugs or they went off to California to find themselves or whatever, and I just kind of was too scared to do all that, and I just fell apart. So the point is, this helps people in their individuation, in their emotional wellness, in their mental health, in their spiritual connection, if they're so inclined. And all of those things are in my wheelhouse. So I'm so happy to share it and bring it and the light in my students eyes and clients eyes as they find out who they really are here to be, who they're meant to be. Purpose wise, maybe. Yes. But it should flood into your career because there should be congruence in who you're meant to be, but specifically who you're meant to be. Using the gifts, the talents, and knowing the sunny side and sharing all of that, as we often do, the persona of knowing that the shadow side, you're going to share it because you're human, but knowing it. And really, I have a saying name it, claim it to tame it. You're naming that dark side or those shadow pieces the dark side. I'm sure your listeners know what shadow is, but if they don't, it might help us to reestablish what that is. And it's just the shadow piece of us is that part that we don't know or we know and we don't like, so we avoid it. And it's really the part of you that sets you free, because truth does set you free. And I remember learning my enneagram in my first class or my certification program. And Jerry Wagner, who's a very well respected psychologist in the field, said, I raised my hand and I said I said something to the effect of, if our personalities are formed by the time we're four, then how do we really rise to the higher part of who we are called to be? And you could hear a pin drop in the room because it was such a serious question. And he said he made a joke because he's a wise observer on the Enneagram, but they can get funny when there's a little tension or stress. And he said, oh, we do it about a minute a month. And something was born inside of me in that moment that said, no, we can do it more than a minute a month. We can be self aware. A minute, an hour, a minute a day. I know he was exaggerating, but more, we can be more. We can change. We can grow. We can get well. I got well. Lots of people get well. We can use this profound holistic tool for good body, mind, spirit, health, and many other tools out there to get well, to stay well, to be better, and to be a part, a very integral part of the one community that is called the human being. That was a lot. Sorry.
[14:48] Karin: But I love that you say that the Enneagram can help you understand your shadow and embrace that and learn how to grow from that. I think that is such an important piece of the Enneagram. But, you know, it's really funny. I first learned about the Enneagram in the 90s after I graduated college, and I was so excited about it. And I was working in HR at the time. I was just an entry level HR person. And my boss said that I could do a little presentation just to our little group on the Enneagram. And I remember after my presentation, I said, okay, so what numbers do you think you are? And no one wanted to say anything because I had focused so much on the shadow side, and it would be so vulnerable and exposing for them to name it.
[15:43] Rosemary: And they were like, Let me share my deepest secret.
[15:50] Karin: Deepest, darkest secrets. After that, I realized what I had done. And of course, in your Gamma is so much more than that. It's also about your gifts and your strengths and how you relate to others and so much more.
[16:04] Rosemary: Well, you were a little bit of a visionary then, because everybody isn't that aware. I remember I would talk sometimes, and this gal is one of my best friends. She's a nurse practitioner. And I would talk sometimes, and she'd be like, Too deep for me, Rosemary. And I was like, oh, that's kind of ouch. That hurts a little bit. That hurts the four in me, the original, the romantic, the sensitive one on the Enneagram, because we are here's what people who are listening probably want to know. What is the enneagram? The Enneagram is a nine pointed system that depicts nine personality types. And it shows this system what you look like when you're in states of disease, when you're not well or you're just stressed or tense. Call it a number of things, and it shows you what you look like very specifically when you're well, when you're centered, when you're secure all those kinds of that kind of pick the language that you like the best. I tend to like the word centered because in the movie Life is Beautiful, I don't know if you remember that one.
[17:17] Karin: Yeah.
[17:18] Rosemary: But it was about a man who was in it was a Holocaust movie, and the man was trying to still show his little boy that life could be beautiful amidst the horrors of the Holocaust. I mean, I just got goosebumps when I said that right now. Because life is a choice, meaning centering is a choice. Seeing things away the way he saw it, or now, granted, he was protecting that little boy, and there were all different motivations that he had. But even so, we need to protect ourselves, right? And we need to love ourselves the way he loved that little boy and say, that isn't Pollyanna. I don't want people to be Pollyanna or confuse this for Pollyanna thinking, but to choose security over stress, to say, I'm feeling tense, I'm feeling tension rising. I'm stress. And I have a choice here. Do I want to react the way I normally react when I'm in stress? Or do I want to react coming from my center? That is to say, not from drama, not from overreactivity, and not from obsessive thought patterns? Do I want to come from a balanced place of thinking, feeling, and doing? And that's what the enneagram helps you do wonderful well.
[18:51] Karin: I'm hoping what we can do now is dive into the different nine types and talk about how they do in relationships. What are the potential challenges for each type? What are the gifts they bring?
[19:05] Rosemary: Sure. Oh, I'd love to. I mean, you know, I was listening to Suzanne Stabil. I was telling you she was on the Glenn Doyle that We Can Do Hard Things podcast, and it was very interesting. She started with Eight, nine, and one. So maybe I will. I always start at one, the Good Reformer. But I might start at eight, because eight is the powerful protector nine. I'm going to name them for everybody. I'm going to start with the powerful protector at eight, the Peaceful mediator at nine, the Good Reformer at One. And that type, if anybody wants to take any notes because it's fun to learn this, that triad. That part of the nine types we call a triad. They are in what they call the anger triad. So you might want to just make a note of that or a mental note. The next three of the three triads in the nine types is two, the loving giver, three, the effective achiever. I use two descriptor, two word descriptors, just in case. Lots of authors use synonyms, but these are my words. Okay, four, the original or the original romantic, I often say or some people call the four the individualist. These are the heart. The heart types. Five, the wise observer. The six, the loyal skeptic. And the seven, the joyful adventurer. That's me. We are the head types. I said anger. I meant gut. I wanted to say anger and gut for eight, nine, and one. Shame and heart for types two, three and four. Fear and head for types five, six and seven. So that's around the wheel. Now, in addition to learning all about your gifts and your strengths, when you study the enneagram or just your type on the enneagram, you learn what I call a wellness map. And the wellness map also is called points of Integration and Disintegration. That's good, but it's a little psycho babble for me, and I don't think the general public wants all the psycho babble. So I just call it a wellness map because it shows you what you feel, what you're doing, how you're centering, how you're managing, how you're self mastering when you're centered. And it shows you, when you're stressed very specifically to what you look like, right? And how you're dominoing down into the gunk. And so what ends up happening is there's a law of attraction within the enneagram. Like attracts like. When you're centered and you are using coming from your gifts and you're managing the stress, this wisdom says you attract the high side or resourceful side of a corresponding type. Conversely, when you're disconnected, disintegrating, when you are stressed, you attract the lower, less resourceful side of another type. So what does that mean? That means let's just take the peaceful type. The nine, the peaceful type, when they are centered, bring to the table calm, harmony, nuance. I mean, I've had people at my workshop say, does everybody want to be the peaceful type? And I say no. I mean, it's a rainbow of God. We all have something. But peace is a loaded word. Even in church, people would say, peace be with you. There's a lot of loaded words, and peace is one of them. So maybe that's why people think that type might be better. There is no type better. This is a qualitative program, not a quantitative program. What I mean by that is that every type brings beautiful things to the table, and every type has potential for great health. And I mean, that is what the human potential movement is really all about, right? And they have this capacity to stay stuck in stress or in victimhood or in all, whatever the low sides of each of the nine types are. So we are affected, meaning the nine types, we all share aspects within these nine types. I think it's important people know that there's so many gifts before I alluded to, oh, my four got hurt. But that's very true. The profile I give shows you how all the nine types fit in with the unique snowflake that you are. So if you're a type nine and, you know, that shows that the profile shows you the wellness map, where you go in safety and center and where you go in stress and tension, what you look like very specifically in those states. And then it shows you your wing style. The wing is the next door neighbor of the type. There's actually two wings. The next door neighbors of each core personality type are called wings, and they influence the core personality. So think of a gray room. If you have a gray room and you're a peaceful type, you might have turquoise pillows or red pillows. And that would be the eight wing. That's the next door neighbor, right. That's the dominant one. Two wings. I'm sorry, I got ahead of myself. Two wings. One is dominant generally. Now, I have given those profiles and every time I every now and then it's rare, but I'll have equal parts, both wings, so sometimes both wings equally. Or people discern this with my help, but they know if both of those wings are very instrumental to their core personality or one is dominant.
[24:53] Karin: I've always struggled figuring out my own wings. Are.
[24:58] Rosemary: You a one?
[24:59] Karin: Yes, I'm a one. So I could see some of that too. And I can see some of that eight wing in myself, so I'm not sure. Nine and one, nine two, right?
[25:15] Rosemary: Nine and two, which is yeah, so nine. So one is the good reformer. So you're just built, you see a way how to make things better, and you have a peaceful mediator and loving giver wing style that influences your good reformer. Now, if one of them is dominant, if the nine peaceful mediator is dominant to your one, then you're going to maybe be able to relax. If you're healthy again or resourceful, your core personality is going to be influenced by that peacefulness, and you may be able to quiet some of that reforming and wanting to make better. You might be able to say, yeah, this isn't mine to do, not my work. Let it go. Not my problem. And that's real healthy flipping it. If you're two is your loving giver is dominant, then you and it's resourceful, then you may find you can love yourself in those critical moments that you're wanting to overachieve. And you might be able to say, I don't have to do that. You could relax it. Do you know what I mean? You could love yourself into saying, I don't have to. You could start singing. Let it go from Frozen.
[26:41] Karin: Right. So tell us about how each of the types is in relationships.
[26:48] Rosemary: I actually did a workshop for the International Enneagram Association conference called Enneagram Pairings. And then I was thinking about it. I have coached couples that are both twos loving givers and they did not end up staying together. And I have coached people who one couple that these are just coming to mind, two and five, and they did not stay together, no judgment on whatever they needed to do for themselves. It was how it went, but it was interesting to watch. So when the loving giver is with a five, the wise observer, what can happen? I don't know what happens in every two and five relationship, but I know in the one I coached with that the two gave and gave and gave and gave and gave to a fault and felt like she was getting crumbs from the five who really liked her to do a lot of the emotional work and the giving and all the stuff, and he didn't think he had much to offer in that department. Well, fives receive when they're centered from the high side of eight, and that is the powerful protector, if you know the enneagram or you took notes as I was going through it before. So five receives when they're centered from the high side of powerful. So they are not just ivory tower types collecting information. They are able to get into their heart space and empower others for once. So I reminded him of all his power and how he had great ability and potential to be in his power and empowering others, and that includes intimacy, heart to hearts, not relying on his wife to be or his wife and mother of his children to be the only emotional leader in the house. Yada, yada, yada. Anyway, that's kind of the contrast, right? Five and two, pretty different kind types of people they'd probably have, even if they're very healthy, even if they're very resourceful. Karen, I think they might need just because fives so need to be wanted and loved, and fives don't need it as much. They need their space, they need their cave.
[29:17] Karin: So twos need to be loved.
[29:19] Rosemary: Yes, appreciated. They are all about love, bringing love, and they're all about relationship, and fives are more about the passions of the mind. And let's figure this one out and analyze that and synthesize that and look.
[29:42] Karin: At the big picture. Fives can be disconnected from their emotions, right?
[29:48] Rosemary: They absolutely can be. So that's what I'm saying. Even with the healthiest two and five, there would at least need to be some work done there. Like, I'm sure they're attracted to each other for the very reasons that the gifts that they each have, right? That five would probably like to be a little bit more connected in the heart, but they get prickly in their heart when they're stressed and they go into their head and into their cave, real or metaphorical. Well, they need to do the opposite. They need to come from the cave, real or metaphorical, back through the head and down through the heart and connect. That's hard for them. The less healthy, emotionally healthy they are, the harder it is for them. The more emotionally healthy they are, the easier it is for them. So twos, if they are very healthy and have done a lot of work will know how to give space to a five and will know how to take it for themselves and meet their own needs. But if they're not healthy and they take care of everybody else to a fault and don't meet their own needs, you can see where there would be a little bit of a disconnect right between those two. Now, that other couple that I worked with that were two and both type twos, they had so many of the same issues that they're sort of like, somebody has to let the other one give. They were competing in their giving. And so here's how I answer that question. I like to give the examples because it's important to look at each relationship, but ultimately it's about how resourceful and healthy you are. You could be with anybody. Karen and so could I on the enneagram. If we are healthy enough and they are healthy enough emotionally and in tune with what they did or said or need or don't need, or all the different patterns that they have that are healthy and aren't healthy, the more self aware we can become and the more can't do better till you know better. So I think that that's what people should think about. Do your own work, get really strong in your own core and healthy, and you'll attract the right person who is also on at least a similar level. And if you don't, then maybe that is your sole path. I don't really have all the answers. Yeah.
[32:19] Karin: And I think it is important for people to know that there's not a specific type for you and for your type necessarily.
[32:28] Rosemary: But I complimentary temperaments. I will throw that in. My husband is a nine. He's a peaceful type, and I'm a seven. We both have eight wings. So our eight dominant wings, eight. So our eight can kind of buckhead sometimes. But our seven and nine, we kind of like he likes harmony and I like joy. And that goes well together.
[32:52] Karin: Yeah.
[32:55] Rosemary: Go ahead. Sorry.
[32:56] Karin: So if you walked us through a little bit, if we start with eight so what does an eight need in a relationship? When do they do best and what do they bring to a relationship?
[33:10] Rosemary: Well, they bring the ability to be clear, assert themselves at the high side, right at the high end. What they struggle with is they don't pay enough attention to their feelings. I mean, they might sort of have anger. I remember once I was in therapy, I think this was about my eight wing. It was about trying to figure out what I was feeling. And I said, I'm angry. And Donna, my therapist at the time, said she said, well, we know that's your Mo. I mean, you can get angry. I mean, that's the eight, right? The eight gets angry. But what's underneath that? And it was sadness, and I was covering up the sadness with anger. So. I said this. You push down a beach ball, feelings are like beach balls. You push them down, they just pop back up. So you've got to work through them. So eights have to work when they're in touch with their feelings and especially vulnerability, which is the thing that they tend to avoid because they worked real hard being strong, right? They came into the world. Maybe there was a bunch of, I have an eight daughter, we were a happy family, but she came in at the end of four kids and maybe she felt some of the tension of separation that was going on. I had an eleven year old and an eight and a four and a half and then a new baby. So maybe when she was one and a half and the twelve and a half year old was sassing me back or whatever, she started to pick up some of that tension. She started to pick up all those different needs that needed to be meeting, needed to be met. She started to pick up some of the stress in the family. But they say that AIDS sort of come out. I'm not going to take responsibility for everything. People come to you the way they come to you, too, but think about holding your fists tight. That's the sort of image for an unhealthy eight. Not even an unhealthy eight, just what eight struggles with, right? Even if they're healthy till the day they die, if they're under stress, they might want to put their hands up a little bit and the task is to open them. The task is to open their hands and be vulnerable and not look for the fight. So what would go well with that? What would go well with it? Well, where does eight go when they're centered? Eight goes to the high side of the loving giver type two. He receives from that. He softens. He doesn't have to be a control freak. He doesn't have to be overly dominant. He can catch himself when he is. He can own it when he is. That's what happens. So maybe a loving giver, that's just an intuitive answer. A loving giver who's resourceful and knows how to also take space would be a good match for night. I don't know. You could look like any one of them and figure out what are the good things that they could offer and what are the negative or tougher, challenging things.
[36:26] Karin: So what about nines?
[36:28] Rosemary: Is the question really, who would be good for a nine?
[36:32] Karin: What are the gifts they bring to relationships and what might they struggle with? So people know, like, how do I love a nine, what is it?
[36:41] Rosemary: Yeah, clearly, and you know this well, they bring calm and harmony and nuance, which I mentioned earlier. They bring an ability to see both sides. They can really be hard to parent with because they can go and they're going to discipline the kid and then they're like, well, that wasn't so bad. But they did. I mean, they can see so many sides of everything. We actually had to go into therapy on a session because what they find difficult is conflict. That's what they avoid. Right. And what they bring to the table is beautiful peace. They just are tuned into nuance and they can see all different sides, where if I'm stressed as a seven, I go to the low side of one, right. So what happens? I get on my high horse, I get overly high expectations running of myself and others, and he can calm that down. He can just calm that down and pretty much doesn't buy into my stress. If he stays centered and he says something to me that, no, that's not going to happen. And conversely, when he goes into the low side of six, when he's stressed and gets his nine, the low side of nine can be not being heard. They say they don't want to be heard, but of course everybody wants to be heard. So don't listen to a nine when they say, I don't care what restaurant we go to. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, whatever. They don't mean that underneath. Sometimes they don't care. And it's not right for us to steamroller over them. It's best for us, I think, to try to pull them out.
[38:34] Karin: It'd be easy to take advantage of that.
[38:36] Rosemary: It is. Oh, I have, I'm sure I have in my life. I mean, my kids laughed one time because they said, oh, when you call Dale, when you yell his name, like, sometimes it sounds but it's like he's nines are passive aggressive. You know exactly what you get with me. You will not have to guess the seven and the eight in me is right out there with you, with him, the nine and the eight wing, not so much. I know you might talk to a nine and they might not answer you, and you might have to say, could you just grunt or something? I just need an answer. What about you? Do you have something that you could add to that?
[39:17] Karin: I would just say that I am someone who, when they see a path, I move toward it. It's like, well, this is what we need to do here to make this better. And he will look at it and have to think about it for a while, and maybe he will move on it, maybe he won't and won't necessarily want to talk about it, but he's getting a lot better at that, I think. He's growing so much.
[39:50] Rosemary: Is that lost? We didn't really talk about this yet, but every one of these enneagram types has an emotional passion, and the passion for the nine is sloth. But sloth. I looked at that when I first saw Dale was a nine, and I said, oh my God, he's the most ambitious person on the planet. Anybody that knows my husband knows how he gets things done by 11:00 a.m.. He gets twelve things done by 11:00 a.m. And it's like what does that mean? But the emotional passions all refer to the self. So sloth means laziness. So it's a laziness of the self. What does that mean? Laziness of self expression. So their emotional passion is sloth and their area of avoidance, their blind spot under the shadow is this self forgetting. They self forget. They want to be like the two about the other but they're doing it for a different reason. They're doing it to keep the peace. Then two is doing it. The loving giver is doing it to keep the relationship and or if they're not healthy, to be liked.
[41:01] Karin: Yeah, to be appreciated.
[41:03] Rosemary: Be appreciated and liked and wanted. I do that kind of stuff. To be wanted.
[41:08] Karin: So what about the ones?
[41:10] Rosemary: So ones are here to make better. They are here they're maybe wired, I don't know, natured and nurtured. Somehow their little personality formed to see a way to make things better. There is nothing wrong also with these emotional passions, I want to say just like there's nothing wrong with any emotion. They just are. It's what we do with them that matters. So if the high side of the one and what they bring to the table is a way to make things better the low side is when they do that to a fault. Right? And they're driving people a little crazy about it because they want to see they just kind of can see like something might be wrong and it's already done, but it's like, well, I still see a way it can get to people if it's too much. And they have a strong inner critic and it's very hard for them not to see a way out of make things better and that's their work. Was teasing before about singing let It Go from Frozen. But it's a great mantra for a one. The other really good mantra for a one is when they're disconnected. And it's not always my problem. Just to say that to yourself is huge. It's not always my problem.
[42:29] Karin: Yeah, I remember reading that in your book too. I'm like, yes, okay, right, that makes.
[42:35] Rosemary: Isn'T that a good one? I like it. It helps. Me and my daughter Claire one time we were having a graduation. We were at a graduation party and this friend of my other daughter who was graduating from a very nice university, somebody her parents brought her this bouquet of white roses and she sort of threw she said thank you, but then she didn't even put them in a vase. And I was like, of course I caught that. I was like why wouldn't you put those beautiful flowers in a vase? So it's like life is in the details. You're like, well, big deal. But then Claire looked at me, the sister of my daughter who was graduating and said, mom, it's not your problem. Like, I didn't know them. I didn't know where the vases were. It wasn't cool. I guess I could have gone, could I put those flowers in a vase for you? Basically. Claire said, it's really not your problem, mom. And we're at somebody else's home and let it go.
[43:27] Karin: Yeah.
[43:28] Rosemary: And so that is a really good mantra for ones who want to keep on making things improved, I think. A big way to make things improved, I think I have my book right here. And I wrote that. The one's own awareness that maybe they're not angry. They don't seem like they're angry, but they want to be right. And the righteousness is masking their anger. So they might say, I'm not angry, I'm just right.
[44:00] Karin: Which is a form of anger, really. Right.
[44:04] Rosemary: They need to change that around to I'm not really right for you. I get a little irritated when things just don't look the way I think they should look. And then if they own that and say, but guess what? It's not my problem to tell you where to park the car because you're driving it's. Little things like that. Life is in the details.
[44:30] Karin: Yes. I sometimes nudge my husband. It's like, but you could have parked over there. And then I make fun of myself because I know how ridiculous it is. And that's definitely been one of the things that I've worked on a lot in my life, is always leaving room open to be wrong.
[44:49] Rosemary: That is really healthy. That's a good way to say it, too. Leaving room to be wrong, to have it not be yours in the first place.
[45:00] Karin: To not knowing everything.
[45:02] Rosemary: Right.
[45:05] Karin: Yeah. But I want to ask real quick, so what do ones really want out of their relationships?
[45:12] Rosemary: Well, integrity, for sure. Integrity. Integrity, honesty. They are all about integrity, honesty, working hard, perseverance, goodness. They want that. I'd say they want what they are at the high side and they wouldn't mind somebody. This is a very interesting thing, I think that happened on a panel of ones, and they asked us at Loyola University, I was down there taking ongoing enneagram education after I graduate, got my graduate degree. And this panel of ones, we learned so much from them, how they could get so rigid and so like, oh, just trying so hard. And we asked them, if you could tell us one thing that would help us relate to you better, what would it be? And they said, don't tell us how hard we work. Don't tell us how good we are. Don't tell us how much integrity we have because we won't even believe you. Just tell us how you mess up. And that will relax us.
[46:24] Karin: Giving them permission to not be perfect, perhaps.
[46:27] Rosemary: Yes. Be disarming. Tell on yourself. I tell on myself all the time. Hopefully I work hard at making it about the other person. But I'm not a psychiatrist and I'm not a psychotherapist. I'm a coach. So there is room for sharing about my missteps and how it looks. I just think it makes me more human and relatable if you can. Especially if you're a two who has pride as your passion, pride as your passion and can get you in trouble when you're thinking about I better give, I better give, I better give. I was told givers are better than takers. But all those old tapes that play for the giving, the loving giver, it's okay to say, yeah, not this time.
[47:16] Karin: So what about twos? How can we best love twos?
[47:20] Rosemary: How can we best love twos? Well, they bring to the table all that ability to not be an island, right? And to no man is an island, no woman is an island. And they are such good listeners. They're compassionate, they are also dependable, and they're people who have just generally really good values. And again, we're looking at the upside here the upside. The sunny side of two is just what can I do to help? I have a loving giver neighbor for 14 years and that was her kind of line, what can I do to help?
[47:56] Karin: So what do they need from their partner?
[47:58] Rosemary: Well, what they might need from their partner is somebody who can say, what is it you need? And they might say, I don't know. I don't know. I had people in my workshops that would say, I know I'm the loving giver and I go to the low side of eight when I'm stressed and I get vindictive and I don't feel appreciated and I get resentful. And I sort of started with the big emotion of being vindictive, but I mean, call it appreciation building, not feeling appreciated, resentful, even vindictive, they know they can get that way. But she goes, I don't even know what I need. Sometimes that's what two struggle with. So what would a good partner be for that type?
[48:37] Karin: Yeah, probably. I wonder if a seven, someone who really likes adventure and joy and can help them figure out how they can feel joy.
[48:50] Rosemary: Yeah, that's a cool way to look at it. Or probably a four could be very sensitive with a two and say maybe if you don't know what you need, just sit down with a pad of paper and just do a fast pen thing and just ask yourself, talk to your higher self like, what is it that I need? I don't really know. I'm mad at this person. I don't feel appreciated. All these just start letting it all out and then maybe you'll see that there is a way to be your own best friend.
[49:23] Karin: There is.
[49:25] Rosemary: And you figure it out as you're writing. I do think somebody who asks them what their needs are and helps them discern that and their needs and their wants and helps them continually put the energy because they're putting it out right. They're always in somebody. Not always. If they're disconnected, they're always in somebody else's backyard, metaphorically speaking. And you just got to keep putting them in their own backyard. You put that energy that you are using, and it's always going out to somebody else. And they need to train themselves how to put that energy back into themselves.
[50:06] Karin: What about three? What do threes need in a relationship?
[50:10] Rosemary: Well, threes are the effective achiever, or they also just are called the performer. This is the type that is the motivator on a team, leads the team. Also, like an aide is the leader. They are just people who are charismatic. They're popular, they're marketers, they're good salespeople. They're all these kinds of but when they're excellent, when they're the best that they could be, it's because they're motivated by their inner truth, not by their image or role. So the task for three is to say my feelings, because they're feeling repressed too. So they need to say, my feelings count. They can read a room. As Suzanne said yesterday, they can read a room. They are good with their heart, their heart types, but they push it down because it can get so big. And in their way, it's like, I got to get shit done. Excuse my friend. I got to get stuff done. I don't have time for this emotional mess. But when they're really connected, they are in tune with that emotional mess, and it's not so scary to them. And they say, you know what? I got to address this. I got to tell my boss that I got to have some work life balance here, just as an example. My partner is mad at me. My kids are mad at me, and I don't have a work life balance. So as scared as I am to have this conflict, because threes go to the low set of nine when they're stressed. So they get that dialed down thing, the peaceful type, dial down, self, forget, it's not important. And then they're not heard, and the real part of them isn't heard. So then they might go back to the image. So that's the dysfunctional loop. Well, my image is this and my role is that, and I should be this and I should be that. But if they're doing that and they're not really being heard, that's not the high side of a three. The high side of a three is listening to the six that's pouring into them. The inner truth, that thing, I know what I know what I know, and I don't need anybody's vote. Sixes have real strong inner knowing, and that's flooding into the three when they're safe and secure. So they're not only effective team leaders, but it's coming from a deep place of inner knowing and motivation within themselves, and it spills out to the group. That's great.
[52:53] Karin: So what about force?
[52:55] Rosemary: Four is the man or woman of la mantra of the enneagram. They teach us that we all have a dream. We all came here to have a dream. We all are a part of the oneness. They're sensitive and compassionate and caring and have a fine tuned aesthetic. One four said oh. I'm not really very creative. I'm not like an artist or anything. But I said, but are you creative? Are you a creative wellspring when you're centered? Oh, yeah. And then all these she could think of all the ways she was creative. So don't just think about it in terms of are you a good artist? Can you paint? No. It's about how your creative wellspring comes alive. That's what they bring to the table. But when they're disconnected, they're longing and envy. Their passion of longing and envy gets in their way, and they get this push pull with romance. Oh, if only this would happen, my sister Anne used to say, she'd be like, oh, well, when Maggie's in 8th grade, everything will be easier. It's like you hear people doing this. If only this would happen, then everything would be okay. If only this would happen, then everything would be okay. And that's what forests do, because they're longing for something. They're longing to be understood at a deep, deep level. They don't want the surface. And that's all well and good until it's too much, until it takes up too much space in the room, until they're the mother of kids and the dog dies. And I think that was in my book, my example. And the kids are all grieving too, but the mother thinks her grief is the biggest. They can take up too much space in the room with all that emotion. And they need to learn to manage it, to name it, to claim it, to tame it. They need to own it. And it doesn't have to run them all over the block with a ring in their nose, because that's when they become victims who could cope with all that. It's overwhelmed. So what they end up doing when they get connected is they say, I'm going to make baby steps. And Suzanne said it this way yesterday. She said, they do too much feeling and thinking. Think about it, feel about it, feel about it. Think about the feeling. Think about the feeling and feel about the thinking. And they need to do and I always say baby steps with my force. Baby steps. It's okay. Taking baby steps is really good. They need to get all that emotion into doing an action. So that would be that. And when they do that and when they do that, they are saying, in essence, I have everything I need in this moment to grow. I have everything I need. And that longing gets quieted.
[56:05] Karin: My guess would be that in a partner, they would really want to have someone that sees them as an individual and sees them as special, right?
[56:16] Rosemary: Yes. Well, but we're all special. So enable their specialness because they like to do that to themselves. Not to enable the specialness, but to say to encourage whatever behavior promotes oneness because that's their jam, so to speak.
[56:38] Karin: Okay.
[56:39] Rosemary: Promote oneness with them. That's what they came here to be. Be about oneness. How can we all know we're all part of this together? And do we we should go to Five.
[56:51] Karin: Yes, five. We've talked a little bit about them.
[56:54] Rosemary: But we talked a little bit about that. They're the ivory tower type. But Fives are people who are brilliant. I mean, they really are. There's the wise observer. I forget all the different ones. I think Albert Einstein was a wise observer. They show it at the International Enneagram Association conference. Who is under the wise observer? Russ Hudson, who's a big enneagram leader.
[57:24] Karin: Yeah.
[57:25] Rosemary: Teacher leader. He's a five. And at the high end, they're bringing their brilliance. They're bringing this big picture, which is to say they're bringing humility. Like I always say, we just get glimpses of the big picture. Nobody has the big picture, we just get glimpses. So in that is humility. Right? It's like I'm just a spec. I only get a glimpse. Yeah, clearly I love the enneagram and it is a glimpse for me of the big picture. And it is just that there are all different kinds of glimpses of the big picture and there are all wonderful ways to look at that. And Fives would be among the people who knew. Fives know a lot. What I was going to say is they're the ones that would know a lot about a little about a lot of things. They can see the big picture through many different fields of interest. I mean, I just can't say enough about that. If you really learn about each one of these Enneagram types, you will get goosebumps because there are so many gifts and you just start to think about how many beautiful gifts there are in the world in these different because millions of people subscribe or identify with these enneagram types all across the world. It's just not the United States.
[58:49] Karin: And the Fives really do want to be seen as having the answer, right?
[58:54] Rosemary: Yes. And they really work hard for it. And like I said, their passions are of the mind, their emotional passion. The thing that can get in their way is avarice. Again, they're not greedy people necessarily, or greedy with money necessarily, but there's a greed of self. So they need to learn their inner work is about extending the heart and quieting their mind a little bit, or at least aligning the mind with the heart and the gut. Coming into the body. Into the heart and into the body, and letting that mind have a moment by itself because it's interesting. Every one of the types, the head, heart and gut, I started out by saying eight, nine and one are gut types. Right. Two, three and four are heart types. Five, six and seven are head types. And what does that look like in stress? Well, eight, nine and one. If you're a gut type, that just means you have a lot of practice in your gut. That's your preferred place. But when you're stressed it looks like overreactivity and knee jerk reactions. Hence the word jerk. You feel like a jerk sometimes when you're in your gut and you're just saying something and it doesn't really hold when you've thought about it carefully later. It's an overreactivity. The heart centered people get drama running in stress and the head triad gets obsessive thought patterns in stress. So when we are most centered, five and every type, we are aligning the head, heart and gut. We are not problem solving until we get answers that are similar in each of our centers. Our mind is the head and body would be the gut and spirit the heart. So mind, body, spirit, align that. Ask each of those areas. If you're on overdrive, you need to get into your heart. If you're on overdrive in your head rather you need to get into your heart more your heart space and that means compassion. Ask your heart and if your gut has been undernourished for whatever reason you're not in that eight, nine and one triad. You're just not a gut type, you're more in your head. Then whichever area is undernourished needs to be included in the decision in the problem solving. So six is somebody that is the loyal type, the loyal skeptic. What they bring to the table is that strong inner knowing. They're very dutiful and they're traditional and they're charming and they're kind because they're kind of trying to scan the environment for what could go wrong and prevent any bad thing from happening to you. Like they're kind and so like the one, ones and sixes can be lookalikes, as remember I said threes and eights are big leader types and so ones and sixes, that kindness, that integrity, that can be rigidity. At the lower end, their emotional passion is doubt and fear and their area of avoidance, the blind spot is deviance. So when something comes flies into their space and it's out of their comfort zone, they're going to second guess it often. Again, we're speaking in major generalities here. I don't like all the trendy enneagram stuff that reduces it. It's rich, it's complex, it's as complex as each individual. So I can't say that enough, which.
[01:02:48] Karin: Is why I appreciate it too. There is so much nuance and so many layers. But yeah, do healthy sixes, how are they in relationships? What do they bring?
[01:03:02] Rosemary: Well, they're going to bring loyalty. I mean they're called the loyal skeptics. They're going to bring that inner knowing faith over fear at the high end. They're going to bring when they're disconnected, however, they're going to bring second guessing and doubting and doubting Thomas behavior and fearful, and then they ramp it up. One time my friend called me from work, she's a lawyer, and she said she's a six on the enneagram. And she said, what do I do again when I'm stressed? And I said, you go to the low side of three, the effective achiever, and you get like a chipmunk on roller skates, and you try to please everybody everywhere. And you scan the environment for everything that can go wrong, and you spin your wheels and she goes, that's exactly what I'm doing today, and I'm going to stop right now. She said, I'm going to stop. That is exactly what I'm doing. And I said, okay, well, now you know that. So how do you because sixes receive from the high side of nine, when they're safe and secure, they get all that peace flooding in. I always say, who doesn't like to be clear, which is what a six is. Clear with that inner knowing and then calm with that high side of nine flooding into them. Who doesn't like to be clear and calm? I like to be clear and calm, but when they're disconnected, it looks like second guessing on steroids, and it's very not fun. Although if you're habitual in your behaviors and they're not going to go away without awareness and work, you got to make a conscious effort. I don't want to get in my own way like that anymore. You got to say things like that. You got to work at it.
[01:04:47] Karin: Yeah. So you're a seven, right?
[01:04:51] Rosemary: Yeah. Let's spell all my sins.
[01:04:53] Karin: All right.
[01:04:55] Rosemary: Sevens are at the high end. You can probably hear in my voice, I am enthusiastic, I'm passionate. I am enlightened, as in unburdened. At the high end, I see the big picture. I see how little I really am, and I see how big the universe really is. And it's very freeing to be in that place of enlightenment, as in unburdening. It's my heaven on earth. All these higher these sides where I call it the wellness map, where you center and the type other type floods, the other the corresponding type floods into your core type, that's a heaven on earth place for people. And conversely, when we get stressed and we don't manage that stress, and we just domino down into these old habitual behaviors, that's like a hell on earth. And the healthier you are, the more you can manage that and the more you can stay in that higher heavenly place. But it's a happier place. It's a healthier place, it's a more cohesive place. It's a great place. I want to be there. So when I'm disconnected, if it's a magnet my mom had or a coaster, the hurried I go, the behind her I get. That's what happens to seven. I'm stressed, I'm getting all the kids out of the house. And then I go, oh, well, wait a minute. And then my son would say, mom, we got. To go. And I'd be like, yeah, but I got one more thing to do. No, I didn't have one more thing to do. I was stressed and I was distracting myself from the pain of being stressed by finding one more thing to do. Yeah. So sevens need to know and own and work at. And I have focus is my holy work. Focus is my holy work. Because you know what, I had four kids and I could have splintered out on steroids, but I chose at one point. Well, when I started learning this, I gave up all volunteer work. I was like, this is what I'm doing. And I made a beeline and I made a commitment. And for 20 years, this is what I've done. Taking it living rooms to cruise ships. And that would show you the seven. We're epicures. We like a lot of variety, but you can have focus and variety, be real healthy. I'm not perfect, but I am committed to being healthy. I am.
[01:07:32] Karin: And you're able to focus enough to write a book.
[01:07:35] Rosemary: Yeah, I know. I couldn't be unfocused if I didn't know. It's really fun to take and give the Jerry Wagner's profile because it shows you if you're resourceful and it shows you if you're not resourceful in all the nine aspects, right. The nine different personality. Not that you're nine different personality types, but you share aspects of all those types. You have your home in one type.
[01:08:01] Karin: Well, I think it helps people who are afraid that they're going to be put in a box by the enneagram. But in fact, no, you do share characteristics with all the different nine types.
[01:08:12] Rosemary: Right. And I love that you brought that up because what a great place if we're getting close to ending or wherever we are. Just what a great thing to know that say again what you just said. I just wanted to piggyback from what.
[01:08:25] Karin: You said that the Enneagram doesn't put you in a box. You don't need to be confined by your number or your type because you do share characteristics with all of the types.
[01:08:36] Rosemary: Right. What I was going to say was it's the antithesis. The Enneagram is the antithesis of putting you in a box. It wants to show you the box you are in so that you can better peel the walls down and grow out of the box.
[01:08:55] Karin: We are getting pretty far into this, but I want to ask my standard question, and that is, what role does.
[01:09:02] Rosemary: Love play in the work that you do want? A more loving world. Makes me cry. We all feel this lately, right? So much. So much. Just with the earth and all the different challenges that everybody's facing and you hear the news. So I want to make the world a more loving place and an Enlightened and an unburdened place at the same time. And it can be both. And we can love and have a focus, have a purpose, contribute and have a good balance so that we're not martyrs necessarily, because I think balance is the key to power. Balance is the key, and I don't mean power power. I mean balance is the key to spiritual power. The both and of things. So a loving place. My goal would be to make the world a more loving place, a more compassionate place, and know we're all in it together. And in that, I guess, there is enlightenment unburdening. We're all in it together. So as my mom used to say, inch by inch, life's a cinch by the yard. It's duart. Everybody does their part well.
[01:10:24] Karin: Wonderful. How can people learn more about you and your book and your conference coming up?
[01:10:30] Rosemary: Yeah, there's a lot of great things. Okay. Really succinctly. The book is called Who You Are Meant to Be. The Enneagram Effect. It's on Amazon. I hope you'll buy great.
[01:10:41] Karin: Got great reviews, and I literally loved reading. It was a great refresher for me. So I so appreciate that.
[01:10:49] Rosemary: Thank you so much for that. It means a lot to have that from you. A website is probably the next most important thing. And my website is not any denomination of any religion, but it is called Spirit Driven Living because that's the way I try to live from on the high end of your enneagram, if you are spiritually inclined. When you learn about all of that and you know you are resourceful, but you want to become more resourceful, you are a spirited or more spiritually connected individual. So that's why I like that name, spiritdrivenliving.com. And you can find everything you need to know there. There's pendants, there's books. I've been in nine or ten other inspirational books as a co-author. And who you are meant to be is my solo, my only book. And then the International Enneagram Association conference. If you want to learn from really brilliant minds that's coming up, just Google. IEA conference. It's in San Francisco. But it's all this, the 20th, the weekend I'm sorry, the weekend of the 21 July. And you can do virtual things. You don't have to go there. And what else? I'm going to teach on a cruise. It's going to be in Alaska, and I think there are still openings for people to join. If you are listening to this and you are so guided, please come and go to Sailwithspirit.com. I'll be teaching the enneagram. There's some wonderful other teachers that are going to be teaching other holistic modalities.
[01:12:31] Karin: So wonderful. Rosemary, thank you so much for being here and dealing with all the tech stuff and sharing all just the depth of your knowledge about the enneagram. This was really special. So thank you from my heart.
[01:12:51] Rosemary: You are so nice and I appreciate that very much. I love the work and please, if anyone, I'm teaching here now, but as a coach, I would not be speaking this much obviously I would be listening to what you are working on and want to work on. So if you are guided, go to spiritdrivenliving.com. And I don't even mind if you gave my email out. Would it be in the chat or something? You could do that?
[01:13:20] Karin: Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes. Yeah, sure.
[01:13:23] Rosemary: Karin, you are such a good listener. Thank you for letting me share as much as I did.
Outro:
[55:00] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love Is Us. If you liked the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram, where I'm theloveandconnectioncoach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my
music, Aly Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be loved. The best way to be loved is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.
