In this episode of Maintainable, Robby sits down with Marit van Dijk, a Software Engineer at bol.com. Marit brings a wealth of experience from her work on complex systems and her involvement in the European testing conference and the Cucumber community. They dive deep into the importance of testing, maintaining legacy code, and the collaborative nature of software development.

• [00:01:00] The Role of Tests in Well-Maintained Codebases: Marit emphasizes the importance of clear and intent-driven tests in understanding application behavior and maintaining code quality.
• [00:01:55] Dependency Management in Legacy Systems: Marit discusses the challenges of keeping dependencies up to date and the potential issues that arise when they fall behind.
• [00:02:35] Documentation Practices: Exploring the differences in documentation needs for internal projects versus open-source projects, and how README files play a critical role in onboarding and running applications.
• [00:05:09] Defining Technical Debt: Marit shares her perspective on technical debt, including the concept of "code rot" and how it can slow down development over time.
• [00:06:41] Empathy in Software Maintenance: The importance of understanding the context in which legacy code was written and having empathy for past decisions.
• [00:08:53] Test-Driven Development for Bug Fixing: Marit explains how writing tests first when fixing bugs can ensure a thorough understanding of the issue and lead to more reliable fixes.
• [00:14:52] bol.com's Approach to Automation: How bol.com uses automation tools to maintain its large-scale platform, ensuring consistency and reliability across its services.
• [00:15:48] Collaborative Coding: The benefits of pair programming and mob programming, and how they contribute to knowledge sharing and faster problem-solving within a team.
• [00:18:03] Managing Technical Debt: Strategies for integrating technical debt management into the development process and how to advocate for it within a team.
• [00:21:00] Isolating Test Environments: How Marit and her team use mock testing to ensure that tests are maintainable and independent of other services in their landscape.
• [00:25:15] The Balance Between Refactoring and Rewriting: Marit shares her preference for refactoring over rewriting and discusses the challenges of maintaining complex applications.
• [00:29:23] Advocating for Maintenance Work: Tips on how developers can make the case for addressing technical debt and maintenance within their teams.

• Testing is a cornerstone of well-maintained software, helping to ensure that code behaves as expected and can be confidently changed or extended.
• Documentation, whether in README files or more extensive systems like Confluence, is critical for both onboarding and long-term maintenance.
• Managing technical debt is an ongoing process that requires empathy, strategic planning, and sometimes, a bit of civil disobedience.
• Collaborative coding practices like pair programming and mob programming can accelerate problem-solving and foster a culture of continuous learning.
• Refactoring code, rather than rewriting it from scratch, can often be a more effective approach to maintaining complex systems.

• Marit on Twitter
• Careers at bol.com
• Test Automation University
• Use Testing to Develop Better Software Faster
• Marit on Medium
• Testing on Production – deep backend edition
• The Wall of Technical Debt

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Robby speaks with Mike Perham, Founder and CEO at Contribsys and author of Sidekiq and Faktory. They discuss the pros and cons of using external dependencies, how Mike built a business off of his open source project, Sidekiq, and the dIfference in maintaining Ruby vs Go software projects.

• Mike on Github
• Mike on Twitter
• mikeperham.com
• Contribsys
• Sidekiq
• [Book] Rising by Elizabeth Rush
• [Book] The Watch, Thoroughly Revised by Gene Stone and Stephen Pulvirent

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Robby speaks with Ev Haus, Head of Technology at ZenHub. They discuss how to get to zero technical debt, metrics an engineering team can measure, good pull-request etiquette, and more.

• Ev on Twitter
• Ev on Linkedin
• Ev's writing on Medium

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Robby speaks with Adam Tornhill, founder of Empear and CodeScene. They discuss the benefits of having clear boundaries between teams, strategies for prioritizing where to start tackling technical debt, and how to improve the onboarding experience for developers new to a software codebase. Adam also shares a rare example of a successful rewrite project.

• Follow Adam on Twitter
• Adam's Website
• Empear
• CodeScene
• [Book] Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
• Your Code as a Crime Scene
• [Book] Software Design X-Rays
• Adam's TedX Talk on Code, Crime, Complexity

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Robby speaks with M. Scott Ford, CTO and Chief Code Whisperer at Corgibytes and co-host of the Legacy Code Rocks podcast. They discuss the difference between Makers and Menders, how to prioritize a technical debt backlog, and how to provide feedback to other developers.

• M. Scott Ford on Twitter
• Corgibytes
• Legacy Code Rocks
• [Book] Lehman’s Laws of Software Evolution and the Staged-Model
• [Book] Radical Candor

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Robby speaks with Gitte Klitgaard, Agile Coach and Owner of Native Wired. They discuss how to create space for psychological safety, the importance of sharing mistakes and fuck-ups of the week, and understanding, coping and taking advantage of your Imposter Syndrome.

• Native Wired
• Gitte on Twitter
• Gitte on LinkedIn
• [Book] I Thought It Was Just Me by Brene Brown
• Brene Brown's Ted Talk on vulnerability

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Robby speaks with Nathaniel Bibler, CTO at Envy Labs. They discuss how to talk about technical debt as a team, navigating communication challenges with clients, and how to be a good guest in another team's code base. If you work – or want to work – at an agency, you should listen to this episode.

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• Insights by Envy Labs
• Nathaniel on Github
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Robby speaks with Abby Bangser, Senior Test Engineer on the Platform Engineering Team at MOO. They discuss how maintainable code leans on a dependable build and test process, what metrics Moo's platform engineering team measures, and codifying your pipeline – including having pipelines build on a regular basis.

• Follow Abby on Twitter
• Careers at Moo
• Tester by Choice
• Deep Work: Rules for Focused Success in a Distracted World by Cal Newport

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Robby speaks with Viktor Klang, Deputy CTO at Lightbend Inc. They discuss how to avoid constant firefighting, effective use cases of TODO and FIXME comments, and how to create a safe space for developers to make mistakes.

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• Lightbend
• Cloudstate

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Robby speaks with Beth Long, Software Engineer on the Build & Deploy Tools Engineering team at New Relic. They discuss the origin of the technical debt metaphor, considering when a rewrite is necessary (spoiler alert – it rarely is), and speak about the limitations of agile across modern engineering teams.

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• [Book] Beyond Human Error by David D. Woods
• [Book] Sources of Power by Gary Klein

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