This episode ends season one of Making a Meal of It on a sweet note, but also a savoury one, as well as a lofty (but reasonable) proposition for using pudding as an icon for systemic change. Conversations with food scientist Richard Hartel and saucissier-philosopher Nick Amberg show that the proof of the pudding is not just in the eating, but also in a whole series of steps both before and after. Maxime and David ponder the pleasure of nostalgia during ‘Stick This in Your Mouth!’, and the episode concludes with questions proposed by past Food Questionnaire respondents.

Guests:

Dr. Richard Hartel is a professor of Food Engineering with the Department of Food Science at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. His research focuses on phase transitions in foods, primarily sugar confections, chocolate, and ice cream, and he teaches courses in manufacturing and preservation, as well as candy science. His book, Food Bites: The Science of the Foods We Eat, is a lively read about everything from skunky beer to marshmallow peeps.

Nick Amberg is a CÉGEP instructor, food maker, photographer, improviser, and self-trained charcutier. He is also a maker of connections, a process idealist, and an excellent host.

Host/Producer: David Szanto

Music: Story Mode

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Mushrooms are the magical focus of this episode, though we only just touch the tip of their mycelial majesty. Conversations with entrepreneurs Nanae Watabe and Judith Noel Gagnon bridge the worlds of foraging, restaurants, humans, and mycelia, while Maxime and David taste two fungal flavours during ‘Stick This in Your Mouth’. Closing things off is the Food Questionnaire with artist and food scholar, Annika Walsh.

Guests:

Nanae Watabe is a Japanese and Mexican mushroom enthusiast, spreading fungi to the culinary-minded people of Mexico City. She is fluent in the languages and flavors of Mexico, Japan, and Italy, and has been involved in such food-related projects as managing a ranch and owning a sushi burrito stand. Her book, Estado de Hongos, reflects on and describes all things mushroom-y.

Judith Noel Gagnon is a biologist and co-owner of the Mycoboutique in Montreal, Québec, the “general store of mushrooms.” The shop offers dried mushrooms, mushroom-growing kits, mushroom excursions, and hundreds of other products from art to books to fermentation equipment.

Annika Walsh is a master student in Integrated Studies in Land and Food Systems at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. A transdisciplinary artist who was born in Chuzhou, China and adopted at 11 months of age by her family in Canada, Annika works with a wide variety of ingredients, materials, and collaborators to form her conceptual pieces.

Also mentioned:

• le Cercle des mycologues de Montréal (the Montreal Mycological Society)
• Anna Tsing’s article, “Unruly Edges: Mushrooms as Companion Species”

Host/Producer: David Szanto

Music: Story Mode

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This episode is all fish, fishing, and fisheries, including the fluid and dynamic ways that things change when water and humans meet. Conversations with fisheries researcher Kristen Lowitt and pisciculture entrepreneur Nicolas Paquin net out with a hefty catch of ideas about relationships, livelihoods, ecosystems, and innovation. For the fish edition of ‘Stick This in Your Mouth’, Maxime and David peel the metallic lid off a couple of cans of fish, and we close with art-scientist Christy Spackman’s responses to the Food Questionnaire.

Guests:

Kristen Lowitt is a settler scholar working in the School of Environmental Studies at Queen’s University in Kingston, on the traditional territories of the Haudenosaunee and Anishinaabek. She grew up near the Great Lakes and recently returned to the region after many years in Atlantic Canada.

Nicolas Paquin is the co-founder and operator of Opercule, an urban fish farm in central Montreal, and part of the Centrale Agricole, a cooperative of agrifood producers and actors working to develop businesses within a circular economy.

Christy Spackman is an assistant professor at Arizona State University, where she runs the Sensory Labor(atory), a research-creation collective exploring how to disrupt the status quo of how institutions and infrastructures make sense of sensing. Her recent book, The Taste of Water, which explores the increasing erasure of tastes from drinking water over the 20th century.

Also mentioned:

• Opercule’s Instagram
• the documentary “Lake Superior, Our Helper” and its distributor, Collective Eye Films
• more about Batchewana First Nation
• ‘Emergent Aliens’: On Salmon, Nature, and Their Enactment by Marianne Lien and John Law

Host/Producer: David Szanto

Music: Story Mode

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This episode is all about the meaty meatness of meat, including power and privilege, language and taste. Conversations with food scholar Julie Guthman and charcutier-and-butcher Phil Viens cut to the bone when it comes to politics, technocracy, artisanship, and trust. David and Maxime moderate their meat intake during ‘Stick This in Your Mouth’, and physicist (and chili-sauce lover) Liz Ainsbury responds to the Food Questionnaire.

Guests:

Dr. Julie Guthman is a professor of sociology at the University of California at Santa Cruz. Her research focuses on food system transformation in the United States, including Silicon Valley’s recent forays into food and agriculture. Her new book, The Problem with Solutions, addresses this new research.

Phil Viens is a former restaurant chef turned butcher and charcutier. His Montreal shop, Aliments Viens is a nexus of trust, artistry, and care for both people and what they eat.

Liz Ainsbury is a radiation protection physicist who is based in the UK and works with research scientists and other colleagues from around the world.

Also mentioned:

• Alex Blanchette's Porkopolis: American Animality, Standardized Life, and the Factory Farm
• the speculative films Soylent Green and Snowpiercer
• Julie Guthman on the Thriving Farmer Podcast and “The Food Police”
• the history of vegetarianism
• the Maillard Reaction

Host/Producer: David Szanto

Music: Story Mode

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This special episode of Making a Meal of It features 11 short conversations with participants in the FLOW Partnership, a seven-year international food systems research project. The full team met in Montreal in mid-May 2024 to share their progress, plan future research activities, and discuss ways to enable their work to transform food production, policies, and attitudes. Next week’s episode returns to the usual format, but for now, have a listen to the many ways that food, food culture, and food systems are both different and similar around the world.

FEATURING:

• Alison Blay-Palmer on the FLOW Partnership
• Nicole Claasen, GIZ, Germany
• Kevin Morgan, Cardiff University, Wales
• Anne-Marie Aubert, Conseil du système alimentaire montréalais, Québec
• Laura Gómez Tovar, Universidad Autónoma Chapingo, Mexico
• Samuel Gudu, Rongo University, Kenya
• Chatura Pulasinghage, Wilfrid Laurier University, Ontario/Sri Lanka
• Lillith Brook, Government of Northwest Territories
• Elodie Valette, URBAL/CIRAD, France
• Rachel Carey, University of Melbourne, Australia
• Victor Martinez, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, British Columbia

The FLOW Partnership is funded in part by the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada.

Host/Producer: David Szanto

Music: Story Mode

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This episode is all about the sweet, sour, and sometimes bitter taste of sugar—and honey, maple, and molasses! Two conversations unpack the sticky subject, one with food marketing expert Dr. Jordan LeBel, and the other with pastry artist and entrepreneur, Sonya Sammut. David and Maxime taste three sweet substances during ‘Stick This in Your Mouth’, and union organizer (and podcaster sister) Elisabeth Szanto responds to the Food Questionnaire.

Guests:

Dr. Jordan LeBel professor and researcher in food and experience marketing. Jordan started working in professional kitchens at the age of 12 and has since worked as a chef, a restaurant reviewer, and an industry consultant. His research looks at how we derive pleasure and comfort from what we eat—and how that affects our consumption behaviour—and he is an expert in chocolate and maple, among other things.

Sonya Sammut a pastry artist, entrepreneur, and proprietor of Sachère Desserts. Her shop in the Centre-Sud neigborhood of Montreal is a destination for cake and ice cream lovers of all kinds, drawn by her distinctive flavour combinations and elegant visual aesthetics.

Elisabeth Szanto is a union organizer working in healthcare and higher education, trying to make sure that the people who do the work have a voice in the decisions that affect them. She has volunteered and worked in labour for nearly 40 years, improving the lives and livelihoods of thousands and thousands of people.

Also mentioned:

• the story of Sachertorte
• Miels d’Anicet (Québec honey producer)
• Le Faubourg à m’lasse (former molasses-scented neighborhood of Montreal)
• Sweetness and Power by Sidney Mintz

Host/Producer: David Szanto

Music: Story Mode

Bees sound recording by Scottish Guy from Pixabay

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This episode is about the dynamic, transformative, ancient, and contemporary process that is fermentation. We also get into feminist theory, the queering of food, and taste in zero gravity during conversations with fermentation experts Joshua Evans and Maya Hey. David and Maxime taste kimchi, miso, and perga (bee bread) in the fermented edition of ‘Stick This in Your Mouth’, and filmmaker Bruce LaBruce responds scrumptiously to the Food Questionnaire.

Guests:

Dr. Joshua Evans is a senior researcher at the Novo Nordisk Foundation Center for Biosustainability at the Technical University of Denmark in Copenhagen, where he founded and leads the Sustainable Food Innovation Group. Their work brings together culinary research and development with academic research and practice in the humanities, social sciences, and natural sciences.

Dr. Maya Hey is a postdoctoral researcher with the Centre for the Social Study of Microbes at the University of Helsinki. She is the instigator of food feminism fermentation, an organization that brings together the three themes in publications and conversations that cross culinary, health, and educational participants.

Bruce LaBruce is a filmmaker, photographer, writer, and artist based in Toronto and working internationally. He has written and directed fourteen feature films, including Gerontophilia, which won the Grand Prix at the Festival du Nouveau Cinema in Montreal in 2013, and Pierrot Lunaire, which won a Teddy Award at the Berlinale in 2014.

Other references:

• a list of global fermented foods
• NewScientist article about “space miso”
• Sandor Katz’s, The Art of Fermentation

Host/Producer: David Szanto

Music: Story Mode

Stock media: ProSoundEffects / Pond5

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This episode focuses on the design, politics, and economics of restaurants, including some of the reasons that the experience of dining out is a lot more complex than it may seem. One conversation with restaurant design and consumer behaviour expert Dr. Stephani Robson, and another with chef-turned-social gastronomer Christophe Dubois, shed light on the dynamics of cooking and serving food. (The conversation with Christophe is in French—see transcript for English translation.) David and Maxime go humble in the bread-and-butter edition of ‘Stick This in Your Mouth’ segment, and vocalist and drag performer Gabriel Dharmoo responds to the Food Questionnaire.

Guests:

Dr. Stephani Robson is an expert in restaurant design and consumer behaviour with a master degree in Design and Environmental Analysis and a PhD in Environmental Psychology, both from from Cornell University. She works in both educational and commercial settings, helping to create and optimize hospitality environments. For more, see her LinkedIn profile or listen to this episode of NPR’s Planet Money podcast.

Christophe Dubois is a former restaurant co-owner and cook who now studies and practices social gastronomy. He is also a co-founder of the Parti culinaire du Québec, a provincial political party focusing on “gastronocracy.” For Christophe, preparing food is a way to acquire confidence and a sense of belonging, to bring transformation to political and environmental contexts, and to increase solidarity among diverse communities of people.

Gabriel Dharmoo an experimental vocal artist, composer, and performer, including as Bijuriya, his curious and vulnerable drag identity inspired by South Asian culture.

Also mentioned: Eric Kim’s article in Saveur about bread-and-butter pickles

Host/Producer: David Szanto

Music: Story Mode

Stock media: ProSoundEffects / Pond5

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This episode unpacks gastronomy, including the way the concept has evolved in terms of meaning and practices. It also poses the question: Is the holism and complexity of an idea like eco-gastronomy too much for times when socio-political-environmental crises keep us focused on short-term needs? A conversation with Mark Panayiotis Notaras focuses on how an eco-gastronomic social enterprise is working wonders in Timor-Leste, while David and Maxime taste what might be the most important food on the planet. (“important?” hmm…) Finishing things off, author Taras Grescoe responds with wit and wisdom to the Food Questionnaire.

Guests:

Mark Panayiotis Notaras is the Greek-Australian co-founder of the Timor-Leste Food Lab social enterprise and its flagship restaurant Agora Food Studio. Mark has focused his career on international development and peacebuilding in South-East Asia and Timor-Leste in particular. Since returning to Australia in 2020, he has worked as general manager for the multicultural marketing agency CulturalPulse, leading the strategy in multicultural fan engagement for the recent FIFA Women's World Cup. He is the executive producer of the podcast, Statecraftiness, and also shows up in the episode titled Foodcraftiness (S2E2), featuring his work in Timor-Leste.

Taras Grescoe is a Canadian non-fiction writer who is the author of, among other books, Bottomfeeder: How to Eat Ethically in a World of Vanishing Seafood and Straphanger: Saving Our Cities and Ourselves from the Automobile. Most recently, he published The Lost Supper: Searching for the Future of Food in the Flavors of the Past. He lives in Montreal.

Host/Producer: David Szanto

Music: Story Mode

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This mini-episode explains why it’s not the actual gastronomy episode, but is instead a placeholder for the eventual episode 108. Due to a late-arriving bit of bad news, one of the original conversations couldn’t be used, so we’re pivoting and re-editing. In the meantime, and to keep you occupied for the next week, check out the first ever Making a Meal of It crossword puzzle at makingamealofit.com. You can either download and print it out, or play online. And yes, it makes references to past episodes, so you might have to go back and listen again. Enjoy!

Do the MMI crossword at makingamealofit.com!

Host/Producer: David Szanto

Music: Story Mode

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