Making Business Matter (MBM)

struUse HBDI to Manage Conflict at Work

Looking to manage conflict at Work? Well, you can use HBDI, the Hermann Brain Dominance Instrument. Join us in this third instalment of this HBDI series with Darren Smith and George Araham.

You Can Read the Full HBDI Transcript Below:

Darren A. Smith:

Hi, you're at the home of the world's stickiest learning. My name's Darren Smith, and this is George Araman. George, how are you?

George:

I'm great, Darren. Thank you. How are you today?

Darren A. Smith:

I am good. I'm good. I'm keen to share with our listeners about HBDI. This is the third in our series of podcasts and I'm just going to read the title out to make sure I get it absolutely right. It says I really don't know how to manage conflict at work. Use HBDI to manage conflicts at work, so that's the title of our podcast. And George has kindly allowed us to share his HBDI. Herman brain dominance instrument profile. So this is a profile. It's a bit like Myers Briggs is a bit like disc. It's a bit like insights. The reason we favour Herman is it's lovely and simple, simple to use and it really just has four colours and it's a it shows the thinking preference.

 

Conflicts are a natural part of life

 

Darren A. Smith:

So there are blue, yellow, red, green and this shows almost the thinking preference of George's brain. So what this tells us is he likes to think in the big picture, creative. He likes to think in the people feelings area. But when it comes to facts, struggles a bit and when it comes to form and structure. Plan he struggles with that as well. Now the thing to say is we can do all four colours, we can do all of this. My metaphor is that George does yellow and red in 5th gear and maybe blue and green in second gear.

George:

Spot on.

Darren A. Smith:

All right. So that's a really quick summary and an overview of HPDI for anyone who hasn't seen it before. George, what have I missed on there? Your news HBDI, what have I missed that people would want to know?

George:

So far, like from what you mentioned, it seems great. We already talked a lot in our previous podcast like how we can overcome the differences and how we have like I think what would be really interesting for us to delve into is with regards to conflicts, how what is the best way to like manage conflicts from different perspectives.

Darren A. Smith:

OK. OK. Well, let's, let's start with conflict hard now. I've been doing soft skills as a training provider for 20 years and I've come to 11 absolute fact on conflict. It's hard. It really is. It's exhausting. It takes energy, it consumes our brain. It's those things that we lay down at night and think, oh, how did that happen? How did I get to that place? So conflict is not easy. And what I read a lot lately about is people. Let's avoid conflict.

George:

OK.

Darren A. Smith:

Just can't you imagine there's seven 8 billion people on the planet. With all these microcosms of banging together and they're gonna bang together, they're going to have conflict. They're not going to think all the same way. And do you know that's all right. We don't have to agree.

George:

Yeah. And it's a good thing, or else with the own robots. If I'm thinking the same way.

Darren A. Smith:

Well, we would, we would. Well, let me give you an example. So George, what's your favourite food favourite meal?

George:

Depends on the like. I would say sushi or pizza or.

Darren A. Smith:

OK, so you love sushi. I mean, I happen to as well, but let's say you love sushi and I didn't. And I liked only fish and chips. That's OK. Now we have a small conflict there. We don't have to disagree, but let's take that into the more passionate disagreements that we might have. It's still OK. It's still OK that you have a different perspective to me. And maybe that's a good thing that you have a different perspective to me.

George:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

OK, so conflict is hard.

George:

I was just like, I was just wondering if you had like. In in your years of experience as a trainer, if you could give us an example of a conflict that you experienced or that you witnessed. That can maybe represent each of the four quadrants, the blue, the red, the like either on both sides or in the same side. So for example a red fighting a red, yellow, red or yellow and maybe like the opposite quadrants and how things were. Like we're actually diving deep into the practicality and things now.

Darren A. Smith:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. Well, let me do it in two ways. First, let's do it. Something close to home. Moving home, our house, our home. Where we all go back to. So let's take these, these four colours. So if a blue is buying a home, well, let me ask you. They're the facts. But fact based people, what do you think they're looking for in a home?

George:

OK. How much does it cost? How much can I sell it later on? Is the location prime? How can I improve? Sorry.

Darren A. Smith:

How far is go?

George:

Yeah, basically everything that's factored like how many square metres is the apartment? Do we have a garden? Do we have a terrace? Do we have, like, any secret chambers?

Darren A. Smith:

Yes. Yes, brilliant. And it might be. It's 3.1 miles to the school. That's an interesting fact. It costs £150 to heat it per month. OK, these are all facts. And the Blues are absolutely right. They're seeking information.

George:

True. Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

Then then let's move over to our yellows. Our big picture people. What are they looking for, do you think?

George:

Actually the example I just gave, so they're looking for the Harry Potter kind of secret chamber, the big ideas, the beautiful. Villa that is hidden somewhere in the wander nurse or maybe in the middle of the like something beautiful. Big, inspiring something. When you wake up, you're like, whoa, this is my home. So it's more like it's a bit close. I think when it comes to home with Reds and yellow. But maybe the idea is bigger. You know, if it makes sense.

Darren A. Smith:

OK, OK. So these guys were looking for a home. They're looking for. How does it sit within my life? Can I live here comfortably? If we're a young family, will it allow us to have another child? Could I knock down that wall? Put that wall in and make a lovely Conservatory. These are the things that yellows are looking for. So they're, they're creative. They're big, picture their future. And then let's come to our greens. Our next steps. What do you think these guys are looking for in a house?

George:

So when how are gonna we do the installments? When are gonna we pay the installments? How many installments can we pay?

Darren A. Smith:

Yeah.

George:

How far is maybe the house from the office?

Darren A. Smith:

You're right. They're planning their day. They're planning their new. Yeah, they're planning weekends where they've gotta go and visit the in laws. They're thinking about all those good things. All right, fabulous. And then let's come to our Reds. Our feelings. People type people. What are they looking for?

George:

Planning and process and stuff like this. Yeah. The feelings I wanna live by the sea. I wanna live by the mountain. I wanna live here. This reminds me of that. This is. Oh, I'm nostalgic. I'm looking at there and like those kinds of things.

Darren A. Smith:

Brilliant. Brilliant. OK, so we understand our four quadrants and how they think. Now let me ask you a question. Are any of them wrong? Of course. So what we then have is, let's say these four people were buying a house together and the Blues pushing for the facts and the yellow for the creative, and you get the idea. But none of them are wrong. And what we've got to do is accept that people have different views to us and it might be using the Herm model that we can then talk about each other with each other as third party. So I might say to you, George, I want to buy this house. I'm a yellow. You're red. I can see why you feel that way.

Darren A. Smith:

That's important to you. It's important that it feels good because it's next to the sea and I'm, oh, I want to knock down this room and change it into three rooms. You might say, OK, I can see that vision. Thank you for helping me.

George:

That's easy part.

Darren A. Smith:

So none of none of these perspectives are wrong, and yet they all cause conflict. And the more conflict happens across because it's harder to understand.

George:

Yeah. Now this is like I was gonna ask like imagine you have a Philly like a red person versus a blue person. One is gonna talk about feelings, the other is gonna talk about facts like no, the investment is gonna cost like £500,000. The other is gonna be like be like. But I love this home with me. It's me. Feel nostalgic. It makes me feel. So how do you resolve that conflict? How can you like each one understands logically or in their mind. But like the their visions are like so far apart that.

Darren A. Smith:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough, it's tough and it's not gonna be easy. Conflict coming back to what I said is hard. So the first step is accepting that everyone thinks the same way we do. OK, so I think, like this, I accept. You feel like that or think that or think this way. So that's the first part. The second part is we need to be able to articulate it.

George:

Yeah. OK.

Darren A. Smith:

So I'm articulating that because I'm yellow, I think like this, I see this and that will help with the communication because I'm a red. I feel this I'm going to try and expand all my feelings to help you understand him and then wouldn't it be great if we can put all those views together and buy the house that suits them all?

George:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

Or agree a way that we might problem solve it together. Where we're what we're not going to do is take 4 coloured straws, pick one and that's who we go with. But we might agree that one of the first things we need to accept is that we're going to buy in

Use HBDI to Build a High-Performing Team

My team is not performing well, so what can I do? Well, you can use HBDI to Build a High Performing Team. Our second video in this HBDI series is all about building high-performing teams. Join Darren and George as they explore ways you can super-boost your team for success.

You Can Read the Full HBDI Transcript Below:

Darren A. Smith:

Hi, my name's Darren Smith and I'm here with George Araham. George, how are you?

George:

Hi Darren, how are you?

Darren A. Smith:

Very good, very good. We're at the home of the world's stickiest learning MBM, and we're talking about HBDI now the 2nd in our podcast on HBDI. And I'm going to read out the title because it's taken George and I a while to get an absolutely cracking title. My team is not performing well. What can I do? And this is based on feedback we've had from other people, OK, what can you do? And the second part is use HBDI to build a high performing team. So this podcast is all about HBDI and teamwork. And high performing teams, George, why did we come up with this as our second in our range of HBDI podcasts?

George:

Today, there's a lot of problems around the world with Teamwork and team working together or not working together. So we found out like around 15 to 16 topics around that and we want to delve into them and discover how can we tackle each one of them using HBDI and how HBDI can take team performance to the next level. Love it. Yeah.

 

Here's how to use HBDI if your team is not performing

 

Darren A. Smith:

Brilliant. Love it. So for a couple of minutes, let's do a recap on HBDI is, we'll share a profile just so the viewers can see what we're talking about in case they're new to HBDI. And then let's get straight into Team conflict, team dynamics and all that good stuff. All right, all right. So let's check in with you HBDI Hermann brain dominance instrument. That's all well and good, but what does it mean? What's your take on? What is HBDI?

George:

As in the title.

Darren A. Smith:

What does it mean to you?

George:

Well, it's a profile. An assessment profile type that helps you navigate into your like understanding or discovering your thinking style. If you're more left-brained right-brain conversion, divergent feeler or thinker, all those types of sorts of things and to help you to help guide you to use your best assets and your best tools as well as improve the areas that you need in certain circumstances to develop better work. And work better in teams as well. Yeah, indeed.

Darren A. Smith:

Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant. I put George on the spot of there a little bit because we did a podcast last time, and I'm just bringing back his memory of what he retained. I've been working with HBDI for about 20 years. George, you're relatively new to it. And we did your profile, didn't we? So you did. You did 80 questions and then this thing pops out. Is that right? Yeah. OK.

George:

Yeah, yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

And what George was referring to is the left half of the brain, the right half of the brain, which most people know. This is largely logical. This is largely creative, but what Ned Herman said was there's a top half and a bottom half of the brain as well, given US 4 quadrants. So the four quadrants, if I do it as four FS fax. So this is a thinking preference for retaining lots of facts. If you've got a mate who's good at pub quizzes, brilliant.

Darren A. Smith:

This is future, so this is me. It's not my profile, but I do have a tendency to think more in the yellow quadrant, which is big picture creativity type, then we've got.

Darren A. Smith:

It is.

George:

That's what we that's why we get along very well. I love yellow and red.

Darren A. Smith:

Yes. And we're gonna come back to that. That's why we make a good team. And the red is F, which is feelings. So these people make good nurses, good teachers, particularly vocational and the greens are our form. They like structure. They're like project plans. They're like next. They're like timelines. And each we can all do all four of these. But we have a preference for pretty, for pretty much one or another. So I have a preference up here in yellow. You have a preference for some yellow and some red.

Darren A. Smith:

Less blue.

George:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

And less green. OK, so that's a whistle-stop tour of HBDI. The Herm and brain dominance instruments. What have I missed that we need to tell people about HBDI profiling?

George:

Well, actually, I'm very curious on how, since we're talking about teams, I would like to know the difference between an individual assessment profile and a team assessment profile. Like how do they defer and like, why would it be important for a team to do an HBDI assessment test? OK, no. That's the problem.

Darren A. Smith:

Imagine we haven't got one here just because of GDPR, but imagine this is your individual profile. Then we took that and we mapped it with thirty of your friends or teammates onto one of these, and so you probably come out as a red. Let's call you a red. I've been mapped as in yellow and then we put George and Bob and Ron and Julie and blah blah blah, we mapped them all up here. And then what we do is we say to them, what does that mean? Now imagine if all of them were thinking in the Red Quadrant and they didn't have any yellow, blue or green.

George:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

So this is what happened when we did some work with the NHS. Now the NHS are largely about nursing about doctors, medical looking after people bedside manner and they were Reds all Reds, which has a strength of course as each quadrant does, but each quadrant also has a weakness. Now what was happening with the NHS? These guys were really looking after their patients. But the problem is they had no analysis on what was going on. They had no future and their processes were crap.

Darren A. Smith:

So that was the challenge for them as a team. Now the answer isn't to try and shift who we are. We can only be the best version of ourselves. The answer is to try and make up for the weaknesses of the other quadrants by forcing ourselves to think in the other ways, because we can do all four.

George:

That's super interesting and it leads me to follow up question. So let's say in this example most of the in of the people in the company are red. Would you recommend for example in this instance that HR managers hire people from different quadrants in the future to help balance it? Or is it more like no, no, we like we don't want to go to this extreme like how would you tack on this problem? OK.

Darren A. Smith:

Hmm. Hmm. We work with a lot of companies who use HBDI as a recruitment tool. But here's the warning, the health warning. Make sure it's one of a number of pieces of information you use to select the right candidate, not the only one. And if there was a first thing, it must be. Are they right for the job? Skills, capability, experience. Are they a good fit for our culture? And then second, we might use HPDI and 3rd. We might look at something else, but don't let your recruitment policy be driven by trying to put all the colours together.

Darren A. Smith:

It's part of building up a picture of people.

George:

Int.

George:

Yeah, I mean that is my question, yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

Alright, now if we've got 99% Reds and we've got to hire 100th person, should they be another red? Or if they are, then we know how to deal with Reds. That's good. If they're not on there a yellow, then they might become or let's say even a blue, because opposites are where they struggle. You might bring this one person in, then they feel like a lone wolf. Their voice is not heard because it's one against 99 and that's the problem. And then these guys over time go hold up. I've been talking about analysis for three years and you guys aren't doing it.

George:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

We don't need analysis and then all of a sudden she goes and they go. Why'd you go? Well, I wasn't. You weren't doing any of that analysis stuff. We don't need it. So in the team we have to be very aware of our lone wolves, those people who aren't part of, let's call it the core, and we need to listen to them disproportionately because their voice can be very minimised.

George:

OK. That's super interesting. That's super interesting. And so OK. In general, like do you? Do you know which? So you said that opposing teams like red and blue are usually very much into opposition. Is it the same with green and yellow?

Darren A. Smith:

Yes, so it's the toughest communication and the toughest understanding is across the quadrants and this is because they're furthest apart from ourselves. So if I put that in the vernacular, the yellows can see the Greens as detailed monkeys.

George:

Hmm.

Darren A. Smith:

And the Greens see the yellows as we've got a head in the clouds, loads of ideas, but no clue what to do. And then if the Reds look at the Blues as sort of robots, they just want data and the Blues look at Reds as touchy feely, pink and fuzzy people. Now here's the thing. It's really easy to do that. It's really easy for me as a yellow to see a green as just someone who wants to fill out Gantt charts.

George:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

But here's the crazy thing. A yellow and a green get together if they don't want to understand each other. Two and two make 1/2 because they just don't go on. This isn't going to work. We're never going to see each other's world. OK, now, what about if they were to see the strengths in each other? The yellow has the ideas, and the green can make them happen. Two and two. Can it 3?

George:

Mm.

Darren A. Smith:

And that's where the power of HBDI is.

George:

That's interesting. Interesting. So OK. OK. Yeah. I'm just thinking in processing. It's very interesting. I love it.

Darren A. Smith:

Here's the power of HBDI is, yes, understanding our profile....

Use HBDI to Understand Your Opponent to Avoid Stalemates

Does you constantly reach a negotiation stalemate? Well, today's podcast will explore using HBDI to avoid a negotiation stalemate. Join Darren Smith and George Araham as they tackle this exciting topic.

You Can Read the Full Negotiation and HBDI Transcript Below:

Darren A. Smith:

Hi, my name's Darren Smith and you're the home of sticky learning.

We are with George Harran. George, hello.

George:

Hello, how are you, Darren?

Darren A. Smith:

Hello. Hey, I'm good. I'm good. So I'm Darren, this is George. And we're here today to talk with you about HBDI and negotiation. In fact, the title of this podcast. I'll read out my negotiations. Always get to an annoying stalemate. Use HBDI to understand your opponent to avoid stalemates. So George, we're talking about negotiation and HBDI. The reason you're here is your what we would call naive results. You've just completed your HPDI profile, is that right?

George:

Yay, correct.

Darren A. Smith:

OK. Fabulous. Fabulous. So you're gonna ask me lots of probing, challenging questions, particularly around HPDI and how we can use it with negotiation. All right, all right, so let's do a couple of minutes on your understanding of HBDI and what this profile meant to you.

 

The HBDI brain is split into four coloured sections

 

George:

Love it.

Darren A. Smith:

What did it mean to you doing your profile?

George:

It's interesting because I found a couple of like things.

It was interesting. I discovered things I was aware of, some I wasn't really aware of.

Darren A. Smith:

Mm hmm mm.

George:

A couple of the so when I was asked to anticipate the results, I actually nailed it in a way I got all my 4 quadrants more or less precisely the same. I was surprised though, by stressful flow. What's it called? This. Yeah, exactly. The results were a bit different than I was expecting, but like, it is what it is, I guess.

Darren A. Smith:

That's not. OK, alright. Well, let me give you and the viewers a quick summary of my understanding of your profile here it is. I'm sure you don't mind me showing it. So what Ned Herman said was that we all know that the brain is split left and right. So let me ask you, George, what's the difference between left and right of the brain?

George:

Yeah. No. The conversion side of the brain and the right side is more like the creative, intuitive side of the brain, or the diversion.

Darren A. Smith:

Perfect, perfect, perfect. OK. And this was discovered now probably 50 years ago now. Not what Ned Herman said was actually left and right. Absolutely. But he also said there's top and bottom given US 4 quadrants to the brain. Now, Ned, Herman or HBDI, which is the Herman brain dominance instrument, measures how we prefer to think. And there are four quadrants in how we prefer to think we've got the blue Quadrant, which is all about facts. So if you've got a mate who's very good down at the pub quiz.

Darren A. Smith:

He's probably a blue loads of facts. The yellow. This is the creative, the entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial type. People who have got a million ideas and might be described as having their head in the clouds. We've got the red people. These are the touchy feely people. People what I love about the Reds is if you walk into a room they normally come over and touch your elbow and then we've got our greens, who are our structured plan. Next project managers. All right. So this just describes how you prefer to think.

George:

Interesting.

Darren A. Smith:

You can't get it wrong. You can't get it right. This is George.

George:

Hello.

Darren A. Smith:

So if having understood that you have a tendency to think more in the right side of the brain, your creativity, your big picture thinking's fairly high.

George:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

Your people skills, your feelings fairly high, but your ability to do facts in the blue is quite low and your green is, let's say it's fairly low too. All right, so your right side of the brain thinker, nothing wrong with that. Nothing. Right with that, it's just who you are. And now what's particularly interesting is this solid line versus this dotted line is under pressure. Your green shrinks so you've become less structured, less planned, and you become more read, more emotional.

George:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

So if you think back, how does that manifest itself in your life becoming less emotional? Sorry, more emotional and less planned?

George:

Well, that's actually the site that I really didn't understand in a way because like when I'm under pressure, what happens is I turn off people like my right side. Actually I turn it on off and I go full on left side and I go I could become very analytical and very plan-oriented in general. So this is like what my experience has been.

Darren A. Smith:

OK. So let me just rewind and make sure I've got this right. So your solid line, you are a right-brain thinker, that's where you're dominant. You like creativity, big picture people and then under pressure, the dotted line, I think I might have misspoke your structure. Your green goes out more right now. We've got it now. We've got it. So that ties in with what you actually do. All right, so let's come back to negotiation skills and stalemate.

George:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

So let's say I'm a negotiation expert. What questions would you like to ask me? That would help you to avoid stalemate. Understand your opponent using this type of stuff.

George:

Mm hmm.

Darren A. Smith:

What questions do you have?

George:

OK, so first of all, I know that when you're negotiating with someone, it's important to bring in the facts. And since I do tend to have a low fact-based quadrant. How can I maximise it? How can I increase my blue quadrant or my unethical skills when I come across to this particular negotiation or negotiation.

Darren A. Smith:

OK, great question. So we can all do all four quadrants. It's just if I use a metaphor, you do yellow and red in 5th gear. If you were driving blue and green, you're probably doing in second gear, but we can all do all four. It's just where we feel more comfortable where our preferences. So you can do blue, it's accepting that it's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to take you a bit longer and you're probably going to procrastinate more to look for the facts.

George:

Yeah. No. Yes.

Darren A. Smith:

But you can do it. You can do it. So firstly it's accepting, we can do it. Secondly, it's accepting, it's going to be a bit harder than normal. It's not like doing the red or yellow stuff. And then thirdly, it's getting on doing it because you know the value of doing it. All right, now the other the second part in answering your question is remember that if you're negotiating, not everyone wants facts. Now I understand negotiation is a very logical piece that we do in the workplace.

George:

OK, OK.

Darren A. Smith:

But if you're up against a yellow negotiator, let's say they're probably going to want to understand the big picture. So the trick with HBDI and avoiding stalemates is to know who you're negotiating against.

George:

That was my next question. How do you know that? Like, how can you on on on the spot, know who your opponent, or who you're negotiating with?

Darren A. Smith:

That one is the first one. You're not going to like it. It will take years of practice to understand. All right, but OK, let's give you the silver bullet in most face-to-face negotiations. Don't start with a face-to-face negotiation. You've probably been probably been speaking to them or emailing them. So let me ask you a question. If you were to get an e-mail from someone like this, what would that e-mail look like? Bear in mind there are factors.

George:

OK. Yeah. Lots of numbers and stats and.

Darren A. Smith:

Perfect. So you're picking up now if you were to get an e-mail from a yellow-type person, what would it look like? This is big picture.

George:

Big ideas. Things that you want to do that are different, innovative, creative.

Darren A. Smith:

Very good, very good. OK, let's do the green.

George:

The green is more planned. So what are the steps to do this? What are the next steps et cetera, et cetera? It's more geared toward that and the red is more about like people who do, you know.

Darren A. Smith:

Yes. Lovely.

George:

Who do you know that can help me with this negotiation or et cetera? It's oh, who can you refer me to or? Who was your client? How those kind of things of questions?

Darren A. Smith:

Very good, very good. What we particularly look for in our red negotiators when we're identifying them over e-mail, they might share something they did at the weekend or something about their family. These guys are very sharing of what's going on in life. And also they're very warm and very enthusiastic people. So you can imagine the Reds on a call like this are like that, which is great. Like, you are the Blues are very much like this.

George:

Then.

Darren A. Smith:

Yeah, it is. And it's all good. They're right. We're right. It's just who you are. The trick here is if we can understand ourselves better and understand others better. And if I'm going to negotiation or you are and you're yellow to yellow, you're speaking French to French, right. Got that. But here. And it's hardest to communicate with people diagonally opposed to you. If you're going into a negotiation, you're talking to a green. You're talking French to Dutch.

George:

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

So what's going to happen if you're talking French to Dutch in that negotiation?

George:

Better speak English.

Darren A. Smith:

It's gonna be hard. It will be hard to communicate, hard to understand. The green is saying to where's the timeline? Where's some of the detail? How do we map this? And you're thinking? No, no, I just want to talk the big picture and say you're doing this.

George:

Yeah,...

Mastering the Art of Service

Join Darren A. Smith and Andrew Stotts as they explore our deck of Customer Service Coaching Cards. Dive into the world of customer service with Andrew Stotts.

You Can Read the Full Customer Service Coaching Cards Podcast Transcript Below:

Andrew Stotts:

So first of all, welcome back. This is a actually very special edition of the Weird Human podcast. Just to remind you about why we exist. We exist really to kind of shed light on the extraordinary. Once again I am joined by a truly extraordinary chap Mr. Darren Smith from Sticky Learning. Again when Darren reached out to me a few weeks ago and he asked me whether I would kind of partner with him in it on a small project. We kind of thought that we would just talk a little bit about that project today with you guys and get down, kind of ask me a few questions. Primarily it's around exceptional customer service. So Darren tell us about the project.

Darren Smith:

Well, the project is mainly about four years ago we looked at coaching cards, little playing cards like, you know, with the ACEs spades and that on. We thought there'd be a great learning tool if we could turn into 80 questions per topic. This one's about customer service that would help a manager with a report to coach that person to be fabulous at customer service. We also have coaching cards on negotiation skills and others, and each time we find an expert who rock and rolls on the topic like you do on customer service, we ask you to write the questions, and then we put it online as a cheap resource and tool to use.

Read our return policy

 

>> Customer Service Coaching Cards <<

Andrew Stotts:

I have to say that the, well, first of all, the coaching cards I use them regularly in coaching. They are absolutely on the money, really fantastic. Slightly my kind of my kind of, I suppose my imposter syndrome kind of gets in the way around you explaining how amazing the customer service cards are. But I do believe that the collaboration between Darren and myself around customers are particularly is absolutely excellent. So I'm actually going to just sort of like switch the coin today. So Dan was going to ask me a few questions just around kind of customer service. I'll let you into a little secret. I don't really know the answers. I don’t know what he can ask me. So I'm slightly apprehensive, but hey I'll do my best to, to answer his questions.

Darren Smith:

That's fabulous. Well, we all know, and the people watching that you know your stuff. So I'm going to throw a few questions your way. Let's talk about customer service. We're going to do a shameless plug for one or 2% of the cards, but 80-90% of this is about helping people to be rock and roll at customer service. Alright.

Andrew Stotts:

It sounds like an absolute plan. I mean, it's always been a deep kind of like, passion of mine. Where I like to start it, if you don't mind, Darren, the reason it's been such a strong passion of mine is it's because I suppose I'm quite selfish, really. When I went to work as a very young man about 400 years ago, I suppose I kind of learned really quickly that if I gave people—I started my job as a waiter. Well, actually I started slightly more junior than the waiter. But as a waiter though the few moments at the beginning of my career as a waiter were absolutely critical.

Andrew Stotts:

I always say that because, you know, for me, I learned very quickly that if I gave people what they needed and I understood what they needed usually that translated into them giving me what I needed, which was a big tip. Yeah. Simple. So that's kind of how I learned the art really, of customer service. The better I got at it and it wasn't unusual for me. I mean, I think it's quite funny these days, and people would laugh at this, but I think my weekly salary was about four pounds a week.

Andrew Stotts:

It kind of gives my age away a little bit. But it wasn't unusual for me to be able to get a hundred pounds a day in tips. Back to my earlier point of it being quite selfish. So I kind of learnt about mastering the art of service and of course I kind of picked up on that a little bit from my father because he was a major influence in my sort of learnings there.

Darren Smith:

Okay. Okay. So in the nicest possible way, why should we listen to you about customer service?

Andrew Stotts:

Well, because it gives you what you need. I mean, for me it's like about loyal customers. I love the idea that caring is probably the greatest marketing tool you have. I've always kind of led with a strong kind of do I look like I care, I think in the relationship. But critically, just from a, a selfish point of view, if customers come back and they repeat business with you. I'm not going to bore you with the story today, but my father for example, had customers who were using him week in, week out for 60 years. You can kind of imagine the idea that a customer was that loyal. So that's really the essence of it.

Andrew Stotts:

So from a business point of view, delivering masterful customer service, guest service actually drives loyalty, creates relationships. Of course that is obviously going to be a massive revenue generator without really any real outlay because you're not having to market that customer. It's about member, it's about customer, it's about guest retention you think is so important.

Darren Smith:

We've all experienced great customer service, and we've experienced bad customer service. It's the latter one we go and tell 200 people about afterwards. Now, trying to get good customer service consistently in a business is damn hard. You did it, I believe, at etti Airways. What were some of

Andrew Stotts:

I am guilty. Has charged for that. I mean, and I think even with P and Os. I think one of the proudest moments for me was when I was working with P and O actually moving P and O a net promoter score. But moving it from about by about 20% or about 18% positive which was was spectacular. But it's really down. There's some really nice, simple tricks. That's really what the cards kind of help you to understand. So there's some really useful questions. I know Darren alluded to those questions earlier, but there's some really helpful questions that can help service providers, leaders, managers in those types of roles actually start to trigger thoughts about how we give experiences to our guests, which of course, drive exceptional customer service.

Darren Smith:

If someone's watching and they're a sort of you before and they're running a customer service team or frontline team, and they're thinking, okay, we've got this survey, we get it. We need to improve the gap. We get that. What do they do? How do they improve it without taking forever to achieve it?

Andrew Stotts:

Okay. I remember pitching what I'm going to tell you, I've actually pitch this to a couple of boards around the world. Both times I have to definitely, the last time I had a sign amount of doubt. I remember sitting outside the boardroom and I'd been asked to kind of like, pitch something around NPS and how we would close the gap on NPS. Now we'd improve NPS. I remember thinking, well, this is a relatively simple solution for me. So I remember sitting outside kind of clutching my little bits of paper waiting to go and talk to the board of this organization and then having this massive kind of fit of doubt because I'm thinking, this is just Andrew, what you're suggesting is just too simple, right?

Andrew Stotts:

But anyway, I was committed and then of course my name was called and I kind of stood up almost like going towards the executioners block. I went in and I kind of did my kind of little bit of my Andrew show. But what was interesting was that I sort of pitched the idea, and I'll pitch it to you in a couple of seconds, but I pitched the idea and it took about six or seven minutes for me to pitch the idea. But immediately afterwards there was a kind of like spontaneous round of applause in this board meeting.

Andrew Stotts:

The CEO said to me, Stotts, you've absolutely got it, nailed it on the head. If we can kind of do that, then actually that would be a completely transformational. So, yeah. So happy to share that kind of story with you. Should I share, share it with you now, Dan?

Darren Smith:

I'm dribbling a little bit thinking what is this that turned this ball on? Okay. Yeah, please.

Andrew Stotts:

Gosh, some people they've said, well, it's a bit simple starts, but I think it starts with a high level of being present. I think that's really important. I think we sometimes live too much in the past or live too much in the future. We're not really enjoying the moment. So for me, there's always going to be kind of five things that I focus on when we're talking about customer service. But before we kind of go there, what I would like to do is just try to help people understand what customer service is. Because I think one of the challenges that most I've worked in Fiji and I've worked in New Zealand, Australia, and Russia.

Andrew Stotts:

Lots of places around the world. It's the same situation. I think often service providers don't understand the basic dynamic of customer service. So for me, there's always going to be three levels. There's what I would call the expectation. The problem with expectation is that what Darren expects or what Andrew expects is probably going to be different to what Mohammed expects or what Feist was going to expect, or what Sally expects. So there's immediately some challenges there. We probably have some similarities when we are dealing with a person, a product, or a service and it's quite, quite broad. So it applies really to any sector, any industry. I suppose what people misunderstand is that if I meet Darren's expectation, so I give Darren what he's paying for, for whatever that is, whatever product it is, but I meet the expectation.

Andrew Stotts:

...

Discover the Personal Rule Book

Join Clare Walker - a practise leader at Vodafone, an expert in personal values, and Darren Smith - the chief executive officer at MBM, as they explore the exciting topic of personal values. Discover the trick to finding your number one value with Clare using a special tool - personal values coaching cards.

Our new addition to our set of cards is Personal values coaching cards. Unlike other cards, these are not questions, but rather one word. There are about 70 cards in this exciting new pack! Check out the podcast to learn more!

You Can Read the Full Personal Values Share Transcript Below:

Darren A. Smith:

Hi and welcome to another podcast or video depending on whether you're watching on YouTube or on our podcast platforms. We're here with Claire Walker. Claire, how are you?

Clare Walker:

I'm very well. Thank you, Darren. How are you doing?

Darren A. Smith:

I'm good. I'm good. We're sitting here on Thursday afternoon. It's hot. Is it hot where you are?

Clare Walker:

It has clouded over a little bit, but I'm very fortunate. I've got an ever-changing view outside my window because I live in the Lake District. So yes, it may change to hot in a moment's time. It may rain.

Darren A. Smith:

Lovely. Lovely. I'm jealous. We're here talking with Claire because you are an expert on personal values and we have just collaborated on some coaching cards. So we have a bunch of coaching cards. I'll grab some here like this. But these are premium grow coaching cards and we've collaborated on some personal values and we want to talk to you about personal values and coaching cards. All right, so.

More about our expert on values

 

Clare Walker:

Indeed.

Darren A. Smith:

Claire, what do you do at the moment? What's your day job?

Clare Walker:

My day job is that I am the coaching community of practise leader at Vodafone and I'm very fortunate with that. I have a wonderful team of internal coaching coaches who are both certified and credentialed. There's about 100 of them.

And it's great and a coach will pull within Vodafone of probably in the region of about 80,000 people. So we have a lot of work to do here.

Darren A. Smith:

Wow. OK, alright. So you working for a very big company. You're doing coaching all day long and you've got a whole bunch of people who coach with you for you around you. Alright. Fabulous. Fabulous. So before we get started on personal values, would you tell us a little bit of something weird and about you?

Clare Walker:

Ohh gosh. It's gonna start with. I'm very modest, but that's really hard when you ask that question, isn't it? What do I what's where do wonderful about me? I'm a member of the local acting group and I recently played a 75-year-old woman who finds her neighbour's ecstasy tablets and proceeds to take them with some very interesting consequences.

So I love doing that. That's really good fun. And I think actually I really enjoyed playing her because I think one of my life's quotes is that you don't stop playing because you get old, you get old because you stop playing and. And so I think I love playing her because of that. And I think that kind of leads to the fact that I love practical jokes. One of the things I really miss about working from home is that you don't get to do them quite similarly anymore. So yeah, probably the weird thing about me is my little practical joking.

Darren A. Smith:

Lovely. Lovely. Wow, wow, wow. OK. And in the nicest possible way I'm gonna ask this question, but particularly for our viewers. Why should we listen to you about personal values? What do you know about it?

Clare Walker:

I think because I can speak from experience about how values have changed my life and my relationships, but also about what I've witnessed within my coachees and colleagues and within teams that we run this session with as well. So I can tell lots of really good stories in confidence about those experiences of what I've seen and really bring to life, the values looking at them and looking at those around us as of those of people around us as well.

Darren A. Smith:

OK, OK, alright, cool. Cool. You and I got to know each other over LinkedIn. Great platform. We collaborated on some coaching cards. Would you share those coaching cards that you've got that we collaborated on?

Clare Walker:

I have them here.

Darren A. Smith:

OK, so we got these coaching cards, and each one just show us some of those cards and a bit about them.

Clare Walker:

Yeah. So each one of these cards, they're a little different because all that they have on them is a word and an icon and that's all that they have with them. So there is a lot of MBM cards are question stacks that you can either use. I used them very much too and I've got quite a few of them. I've got time management and leadership and Grow model and most recently the Imposter syndrome ones. They are great for being a Bank of cards, a Bank of questions that I read through and think that's a great question that I wonder where I could ask that one.

They're amazing because they pop up every so often. You'll be coaching someone, you'll listen, you'll hear them say something and you think oh, that great question that I've read the other day on the cards. It pops into your head and you think this is really relatable and what they've just said. So using them as coaching prompts, certainly not ever going through them. And although saying that they do actually use them sometimes.

If you've got a coach who is very nervous or a little bit sceptical about coaching, I will kind of fan the cards out, especially if I'm doing grow model or I'm doing you know those are coming useful and say to them pick a card and you answer on.

Darren A. Smith:

Yep, Yep. OK. Nice.

Clare Walker:

So I'm not asking the questions they get to then get what it feels like.

To answer a question, I'll let them choose the question sometimes as well. I'll lay out 10 or 20 and they'll say I'm going to answer that question. It builds that confidence in being able to be a little bit more open than answering questions. So whereas a lot of MBM's cards are a stack of questions that are very useful, the personal value ones are very different because they're not questions. They are literally, as I say, one word. So we've got leadership, humour, punctuality, contribution, dependability, all of those. And there are about 70 cards.

Always a value on them and an icon on them and each one of those values will mean something different to the person who's choosing it. So yeah, there it's a great, great set of cards in the way. The reason that I love them is because of people. It's that tactile thing. People look at them, feel them, and I have somebody who did this two weeks ago with me picked out one of the cards and just, well, burst into tears almost because the word on that card resonated with them so much that it was just so solid that they kind of.

That was it. The tears came. So yeah, a great coaching moment where I can see there's some emotion there. What was it that came up then when you saw that word? So there a little bit different in that they're single words as opposed to questions.

What makes people tick

 

Darren A. Smith:

Ohh wow. Okay. So these cards are not questions. They're more prompts. I think you and I called it when we were collaborating maybe team activity cards. Would you just bring to life for me, for the viewers, how do you use these things? You gather a bunch of people and give them some cards? What do you do?

Clare Walker:

Yeah, okay. So we've got within the culture, there is a 10-step exercise as to how to do this, but I'll walk you through how you do it. So really you get either an individual to get an individual coaching or you get a team together who worked together and might know each other and might not have done this with people who've known each other for a long time. I've done it with new teams and it works perfectly well with both.

So you start off using it as personal values and you would give each member of the team a pack of these cards. So there's about as I say, 70 different values on them. I normally find 12 to 15 minutes for them to go through the cards. These 70. Wwhat they tend to do and it's very interesting when you watch people do it. Some people will do it this way up and they'll look at each the front of each card and go, yeah. There are other people who hold the cards this way up and they'll flip each card and then have a look and then layer it down. It's always very interesting to see. But what the purpose is for them to go through all of these cards and they tend to put them into three different piles.

We'll say. Yeah. OK. This one really resonates with me. So that's gonna be in my top 10. And that's the point of doing this is that they find their top ten cards. That one's gonna be my top ten. They look at the next one and go, No, that doesn't resonate with me. They'll put it in probably a discard pile at the side because that's never going to be in my top ten. Might still be important. Might still be part of their life. But really what they will do is put on site.

Darren A. Smith:

I'm good. Yep.

Clare Walker:

Then there'll be other cards that they'll not be quite so sure at, so they can put those in the whole pile. Though it might be my top ten, I've not quite yet beside it. So what they will end up with after those sorts of 10 minutes? It is a line of 10 cards that are what they will say is up to 10 cards. We always get people who go Oh, can I have 18 and my answer to that is always as long as nonconformity is at the top of that list.

But what they will do is then sort out those top ten cards and even by just doing that is an eye-opener because people go, yeah my values are honesty and trust but when they actually see them in front of them and they start laying them out there will be values in there that they've never thought of as being....

Expert Tips for the World of Negotiation

Join Darren A. Smith, Dr. Anthony, and Andrew Stotts from the Weird Human podcast, as they tackle how to be a better negotiator.

You Can Read the Full 'Better Negotiator' Transcript Below

Andrew Stotts:

So guys, so first of all, welcome to another edition of the Weird Human Podcast. Our 25th actually. So we've got some fantastic guests again today. Huge. As usual. I'm joined by the brilliant Dr Anthony, but also today, which I'm joined by the Fantastic Darren Smith. I've known Darren for many, many, many, many years. And we've worked together in different organizations around the world, which has been fantastic. Today's question, just to remind you guys, is really how can I be a better negotiator?

Andrew Stotts:

And before we kind of tackle the question I'd like to just remind you upon the mission statement, really for the Weird Human Podcast. That mission statement is really about exploring the extraordinary about the human beings who are around us. And that's a very, very important point. So it's about making you and really kind of bringing out the extraordinary of being a human being. So, Darren, perhaps it'll be helpful for the people who are listening, just to have a brief introduction from yourself.

Darren Smith:

So we are MBM, we're also known as the Sticky Learning Guys. We are the guys who want to achieve behavioural change with you because we know that most people go on a one-day training course, come back and do nothing different. So we're the guys that ensure by prodding, poking, doing everything we can, you come back and be the very best version of yourselves. That's me, Anthony.

Learning that sticks

 

Andrew Stotts:

That's a great introduction. Dr. Anthony. I can't believe, we did a show last week. That show actually had had more than 11,000 views now. So again, massive thanks to Michelle. That was the one around kind of like wealth coaches and kind of like tips around kind of money. So if you want to go back and look at the catalogue that's an incredible episode. We also started to delve into the kind of relationships and kind of what made relationships. Then of course that kind of took us into the path around negotiating, particularly between couples. Dr Anthony's obviously married to Dr Michelle in the previous show.

Andrew Stotts:

The first time I met his beautiful wife. We obviously then started to explore kind of what made their relationship successful and that kind of brought us to our conversation today. So if I can go back. So Dr Anthony, love you, my friend.

Dr Anthony:

I hope that Darren can actually then teach me how to negotiate better because there's one thing for certain, every man is know how to negotiate better to be a good man. You start to seek love, that's for sure. Darren, how do you negotiate?

Andrew Stotts:

How do you?

Darren Smith:

Well, I'm starting to feel like I should have some awards on the wall like you've got because wow, they're very impressive. The first thing that we need to do in answering that question is understand the difference between haggling and negotiation. Now, there are eight ways to solve a conflict. Haggling is one, negotiation's another. So, Andrew, I know you do this. You've been to the bizarre market stores and you've haggled for the Ray-Bans, and you started at 40 Euros, didn't you?

Andrew Stotts:

That's just an obscene amount of money for those, the Ray. I'm kind of more in the two-euro range, to be fair.

Darren Smith:

So we've all been there, haven't we? We're trying to buy these Ray-Bans, we're on holiday and the guy behind the stool starts at 40 euros, we start at two, and you meet somewhere in the middle. A valid form of resolving a conflict. But don't kid yourself that it's negotiating. It is not. It is haggling. Now, if you get a chance, Andrew, look up on Google, a Monty Python sketch about haggling. It's really brilliant about how to do it. So I love that. But let's come back to negotiating. First thing is to know the difference between the two.

Andrew Stotts:

Yeah. It is fascinating because as soon as you talk about kind of the Friday market for me it was the Friday market. So we lived in Kuwait for a long time and brought my children up in Kuwait primarily. There was a fantastic location called the Friday market and there were lots of kind of Ray-Bans available and Oakley bonds and other kind of like sunglasses, let's put it that way. And other kind of curious merchandise, which is always quite fascinating. The challenge I always had was that my daughter was always too quick to kind of like share her position when she was negotiating. So she wanted to buy. She had in her mind a particular pair of Ray-Bans.

Andrew Stotts:

So she would kind of go into the market and she would find the Ray-Bans that she wanted and then obviously start to salivate around these Ray-Bans. And of course, my big concern around that was that as she was salivating, I was kind of watching the store owner who was also going, whoa. Now I've got dad by the short and curlies. Effectively I can charge my 40 kinds of euros as opposed to the two euros for the Ray-Bans. And it's a nightmare. So I would have to then come discreetly grab my daughter and sort of take her away and say, we're not going to have to find those Ray-Bans on another store.

Andrew Stotts:

Yeah, there were other stores, but it was often quite a pain finding them because she had a particular taste in Ray-Bans. So then we would eventually find them. But I would say when you go there, do not show your position. I think that's a really, really important point. So I'm kind of curious, Dr Anthony, to understand about kind of positional and why we shouldn't really be sort of showing our position when we're negotiating.

Dr Anthony:

Well, it's letting the cat out of the bag. I mean, no one actually goes in with a cat out of the bag up front. Negotiation is about getting to a point where both parties find an amicable agreement. And if you leave the cat out of the bag, then you have no back foot to actually reverse back onto. So it is a gift. It is a skill and it can be learned. That's why we're speaking to the master Darren himself. So Darren talking about negotiation, how do you negotiate with a five-year-old? They have their own way and they wanted their way. Is there any negotiation? You tell us.

Darren Smith:

Well, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to give you some great advice here. Dr. Anthony, I've been negotiating and teaching for 30 years and I used to run a billion-pound portfolio and I've learned one thing. You don't negotiate with kids, you won't win. I don't win. I've never won with my kids. It's just not worth it. So what I do is I put all my energies into winning at work.

Andrew Stotts:

That's a great question.

Dr Anthony:

Brilliant.

Andrew Stotts:

So how do we get better then? As human beings, how do we get better at negotiating? So what are your kind of top tips, Darren?

Darren Smith:

So the first thing is, let's understand the difference between haggling and negotiation. Yeah. So once we've got those, we're then negotiating. Okay. The next thing on negotiation is preparation. Now, Andrew, what you do or others do for preparing for a negotiation is they normally open PowerPoint and start typing.

Andrew Stotts:

Yeah.

Darren Smith:

They create their slide and their images and the ooh, ah, blah. But here's the thing. PowerPoint is not a negotiation preparation tool. There I said it.

Andrew Stotts:

I agree because what I tend to classically see when we are putting people through you know, real playoff simulations around negotiation, which I think is quite fascinating. Is people tend to when you give them a scenario to negotiate 100% of the time, particularly if they've had no real exposure to professional negotiating, they tend to come only from their position. Yep. So they prepared their position and they're kind of like fairly fixed on that. It normally takes me about a day to knock out the idea that they're going to give their position away because they're kind of walking with their position. This is my position, this is what is what my boss has agreed, this is how much I'm prepared to pay for whatever it is, bang on the table.

Andrew Stotts:

For me, it's the biggest kind of no-no. When we're negotiating. I think we need to be, I always say to people, we need to try to start to. It's back to one of my Coveys, which is, you know, seek to understand before you seek to be understood. So if you understand, if you can be lucky enough to get Darren's position or Dr Anthony's position early part of the conversation, actually that's really useful to you as a negotiator. Because you've got basically then a very nice set kind of framework. So I know you have a really cool framework, Darren. Perhaps you could share that framework with us.

Darren Smith:

It's very simple. So there's a template available online because we realized a long time ago that people needed a preparation tool. Something simple, easy to understand, easy to use. I'll just draw a part of it here, Andrew so you can see. It's a downloadable free template and we call it the square dance. We've never quite understood why we call it that. But do see do and all that seems to conjure up people.

The Squaredance Template

 

Andrew Stotts:

It kind of works for me, Darren. That kind of works for me.

Darren Smith:

Sort of does, doesn't it? I mean, you've done a band dance and so have I.

Andrew Stotts:

I'm not sure I like it. What are your thoughts on band dances, Dr Anthony? Any kind of thoughts on band dances? Have you ever been to a band dance in South Africa?

Darren Smith:

It took the wrong time to negotiate. Let Darren talk.

Darren Smith:

I'll do what the man said. So there's this A4 template we've created. Download it for free, it's all yours. And roughly it looks like this. What are you hoping for?...

Mental Health Expert Interview with Simon Blake CEO of Mental Health England by Darren A. Smith MBM

Today's podcast features mental health questions and answers by our expert Simon Blake. Here's a quick overview of the questions:

What is the definition of mental health?

How has Covid-19 affected mental health?

How accurately is mental health reported in the media?

How does mental health affect physical health?

How does mental health affect your life?

Why is mental health important? - Why is mental health training important?

Why is mental health on the rise?

Please tell us about mental health month/week.

When is mental health too much?

What does mental health mean to you?

Where can someone get a mental health diagnosis?

You Can Read the Full Transcript on Mental Health Questions and Answers Below:

Darren Smith:

Welcome to Sticky Interviews. My name is Darren Smith, and I'm the Chief Executive Officer of MBM Making Business Matter, the Home of Sticky Learning. We are the soft skills training provider to retailers and manufacturers around the globe. The idea of these interviews is to bring to you the expert's inside knowledge of how you can be the very best version of you. Welcome to the show. Welcome Simon Blake. We are here at Sticky Learning, MBM, and we have the great honour of talking to you. Now, I know that you are the CEO of Mental Health England. I know that you ride horses and you've got a competition tomorrow. But what I'd like to do is, for the guys that are watching is say, why should we talk to you about mental health?

Simon Blake:

Simon Blake, on Mental Health Questions and Answers

 

So, I mean, the first thing, of course is that everybody should be talking about mental health and talking about mental health properly and seriously. So great to be here talking with you. But I am Chief Executive of Mental Health First Aid England, which is an organisation that wants to train one in 10 of the adult population in mental health first aid England skills and knowledge because we think that will create a cultural tipping point in which enough people have the skills and understanding around mental health to make a real difference.

Simon Blake:

I also, of course, have lived experience in terms of live with a partner who has their own mental health conditions, friends, family, my own ups and downs in all sorts of things. So, yeah, I have some professional expertise and then some personal expertise. But just go right back to the first bit. We all need to be talking about it, and that's why you should talk to me because hopefully, I encourage some people too [inaudible1:47].

Darren Smith:

Fabulous. Alright, we've got about 12 questions. Most of them are those that either come from people on LinkedIn or they are searching for them on Google. So we saw these questions and we thought, who better to ask than you? So we are going to go through these questions, ask you, we might go off a tangent, we might ask you to share a few stories. But for the viewers at home or at work, what we are really trying to do is get all those goodies that are inside your head around mental health out so we can help each other.

Simon Blake:

Cool.

Darren Smith:

So our first question is, what is the definition of mental health?

Simon Blake:

Sure. I mean, the World Health Organisation, I know Donald Trump's not their biggest fan. But the World Health Organisation defines mental health as a state of well-being in which individuals realise their own potential can cope with the normal stresses of everyday life, can work productively and fruitfully, which is obviously a good term for those working in supermarkets and be able to contribute to their own community. So that's the World Health Organisation definition. I guess the key bit in that is this is about well-being.

Simon Blake:

We often talk about mental health when we mean mental ill health, and it's really important to recognise. We talk about one in four people experiencing poor mental health each year. What we talk less about is that four in four of us have mental health and that we rely on that to help us get through every single day, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Darren Smith:

Right. Because you're right, I talked to my mum and dad, obviously, they're a generation of about 70, 80 years. And they talk about people, oh, he's got mental health. So they use it almost in that negative, which is wrong. And I guess they, and even I haven't wrapped my head around mental health actually. We're talking about either illness or well-being. Right.

Simon Blake:

Yes. And of course, it's a continuum, isn't it? That some of us will have a clinically diagnosed condition. Some of us might have highs and lows. We will have bad moments and experience bereavement or divorce or separation or whatever it is. So our mental health is a bit like our physical health. We don't either have pure physical health or an illness. We are all different parts and there is a similar sort of thing with our mental health. But we may not have a clinically diagnosed illness, but we may be operating 80% for a few weeks for whatever reasons, whether that's external or internal.

Darren Smith:

And that perfectly brings us onto our next question, which is what we're all going through right now. For some people, hell on earth, for others, even worse. So how has, I think I know the answer, but interesting for you to elaborate. How has covid affected people's mental health?

Simon Blake:

So, I think it's fair to say it have affected people in numerate different ways. And I just want to start by saying, of course, that there are some people who have been locked down, who have not been locked down in safe houses, in safe experiences. So maybe in violent relationships. Some people have experienced homophobia or transphobia or whatever it is within their home life. So I think there are some, some key things which we just have to acknowledge. Because I think sometimes people forget that we don't all have the luxury of a safe home. But also once you sort of acknowledge that, that even though lots of people have had awful experiences which may have include being bereaved and not being able to go to the funeral and grieve properly.

Simon Blake:

So some really bad things, most people have adapted incredibly well. That moment with an hour a day, whatever it is, notice that it's going to be different tomorrow. Whether it's going to be different tomorrow and you are going to still come to workplace, or it's going to be different tomorrow, you're going to stop coming to the workplace. Yeah, there's lots of things where we've adapted incredibly well. What we also know is that a much higher level of people have experienced anxiety during lockdown since Covid began. And whilst we don't have all of the information now, of course, as the restrictions, ease there is much, much more room for people to get anxious about all sorts of different things. About am I going to be forced back into the workplace? Am I going to have to get public transport and is that going to be safe?

Simon Blake:

What's happening with our borders? Am I able to do X, Y, and Z? The reality is that most of us are a little bit confused and, of course, being confused because the rules are not being as communicated as clearly as they could be, in my opinion. And the variation across the four countries, it doesn't help that. But what that means, of course, is that when we are not sure it can exacerbate worry and concern and anxiety. And for some people it is also important to say no commute, more time at home, an opportunity to slow down, an opportunity to not travel internationally as part of their job has brought some real positive benefits as well. So I think it is really important that we acknowledge the adaptability that as human beings, we've done incredibly well. However hard it's been, we've done incredibly well.

Darren Smith:

Yeah.

Simon Blake:

And that it has been difficult for some people and will continue to be, and that there have been some positives for some people, and that most people, of course, have gone back and forth. If you asked me last week how it was a very different answer than how it is today.

Darren Smith:

Very true. You're right, it's a very changing picture. I mean, we as a family, we went out on Saturday and the whole mask thing, it's just, I don't know. We wanted to go out and sadly, we went into a weather spring for lunch. There was no mask in there. Or we went into a clothes shop and it said, you must wear a mask, sanitise your hands. Absolutely. We went in, there were six assistants without masks and you're thinking this is all a bit confusing.

Simon Blake:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Darren Smith:

Well, we got it.

Simon Blake:

Yeah. And I think that that is, yeah, I've used public transport probably three times since March. On Sunday I got on [inaudible 8:49] railway, and there were probably similar six or seven people without their masks on and I was furious. I'm not a person who gets furious about much. And then I was like, just breathe. By the time I got home, I was like why were there so many people? Why weren't the people on the train saying to them that they should be doing it? Of course, yeah, actually I had my mask on. I was far enough away. But there's something about our interactions with each other, what's happened in this period and our own. Clearly, it triggered something in me.

Simon Blake:

I don't normally go from not 60 in quite the speed that I did in that moment, which suggests that it worried me rather than it made me angry, even though I felt fury. Then of course, I'm 45. No, I'm not 46-year-old Blake. So always sort of equipped like many of us with the nuance of emotion. So it took me a while to just step back and go, okay, what's happening? And that's what I think all of us are going to have to do a bit more of.

Darren Smith:

That's very true....

Are You an Amateur Negotiator?

Join Ben from Innovate Podcast and Darren A. Smith with their talk on how to become an effective negotiator. Learn useful tools like the squaredance for negotiating and disregard bad practices like running to PowerPoint first. Read on to discover the basics of effective negotiation that you can start using today.

You Can Read the Full Transcript Below:

Darren A. Smith:

What else could we do? What could I explore? What do you want from me? Could we talk about a contract that's 50 years long? No, we can't, Darren. Alright, what about one's five years long maybe? Okay. Could we talk about improving the quality, and reducing the packaging? Could we work together on blah, blah, blah? There’re a million things we could talk about. Now. None of them might bridge the gap between a 10-pound case and an eight-pound case. But let's try.

Ben:

Welcome to the Innovate Podcast, a show where we discuss, dissect, and attempt to rebuild the world of product and category within consumer goods. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Darren a Smith a veteran of the grocery industry with over 3o years of experience, I think working either for retailers or advising manufacturers and brands. Darren and I briefly crossed paths as buyers and category managers at Sainsbury back in the very early naughts, which we may discuss in a moment. But Darren, welcome to the Innovate Podcast. Delighted you can join us. How are you? How are you today?

Negotiating is a key business skill

 

Darren A. Smith:

Hey, Ben. I'm good. We're in process of moving house, not today, but in the next couple of weeks, so I am struggling with that process. There's a reason it's stressful.

Ben:

So yeah, you just thought you'd add another huge seismic life event onto the already kind of generational economic challenges that we're facing.

Darren A. Smith:

That's absolutely true. I think we just squeezed in for the interest rates went through the roof.

Ben:

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not a joking matter actually. Yeah. Okay, cool. Good. So, Darren, just for the benefit of the listeners, I guess a natural place to start would just be to introduce yourself, talk through your kind of background from Sainsbury through to now and just talk about what you're focusing on with your current business MBM, if that's okay.

Darren A. Smith:

Of course. So I started Sainsbury in 1990 and at that point, I was the assistant. Now that's the important part. I was the assistant cottage cheese buyer. I wasn't even the real one. I didn't even know what cottage cheese was at the rightful age of 19. So that's where I started. Then I took on various buying roles for the next 13 years. My last real job was looking after the fruit team for Sainsbury, where I decided that actually I wanted to go and see if I could do something by myself, set up MBM, and ever since we've worked on soft skills training.

Ben:

Okay, awesome.

Darren A. Smith:

For the last past 20 years now.

Ben:

So soft skills training, I guess that could be quite broad. It's clearly focused on people. What are kind of the key areas that you focus on in terms of developing skills?

Darren A. Smith:

The key ones that people want are how do I get the most out of my time — time management. How do I get the most out of my people — people management, leadership skills, and how do I get the most out of my deals, particularly in the industry that you and I are in? So it's negotiation predominantly.

It's time management and it's people management skills. They're the three. There are a number of other soft skills. The bit I really like is Jack Ma, recently the chairman of Alibaba said that with the progress of AI, soft skills is the only way forward. Love it.

Ben:

Right. Awesome.

Darren A. Smith:

Which is great. So we can try and process data really quickly and be analysts, but ultimately it's about how you and I interact about the teams we build and about how we lead people is the future.

Ben:

Yeah. That's very interesting. So we're recording this in mid-November. It is an incredibly challenging market both within grocery and food and drink specifically. But you know, generically we have just kind of western consumers, we've kind of lurched from the generational challenge of covid through to the kind of the latest generational challenge of the economic crisis.

So you talked about negotiation skills there, clearly manufacturers, private label and brand. That's probably one of the main things that their commercial teams are doing at the moment. That process in terms of working with their retail partners, and their food service partners to effectively kind of reach a commercial position that can enable survival.

Not to sound kind of too dramatic about it, but I think that's what many manufacturers and in fairness retailers are facing at the moment. So that's the topic that we're going to dig into today. It's looking at negotiation, negotiation skills, and how our listeners can kind of improve those skills from their own personal perspective and kind of bring some of those ideas into their businesses as well.

Do you want to just give a little bit of background, I guess, to start before we kind of delve into some of the specific areas about how you know, what the kind of the key principles within negotiation that people should be thinking on? Then we'll move on to this kind of seven areas that we're going to discuss today.

Darren A. Smith:

I think it's firstly worth saying, Ben, I'm feeling for all those people Both account managers on this side, and buyers on this side. It's tough, it's hard. Yes, they get paid the big bucks as you and I did as buyers and as account managers, but it's hard. Conflict is hard. Anyone who says that they enjoy conflict, or they don't mind conflict, they're lying. Conflict is tough.

It's mentally gruelling. You go home at the end of the day and it's still spinning around in your mind. So it's really tough for these guys at the moment. Now here's the real crux of this. It's harder to negotiate with an amateur negotiator than a professional one. The reason for that is amateur negotiators tend to do fight or flight or sanctions. If you don't give me that, I'm off to find someone else. That's really hard because they're not working with this art form.

They're not dealing with the complexities of the negotiation. It's just fight or flight. So what we aim to do is try and help the buyers and the account managers to be more, let's call it professional or we prefer effective negotiators because they're easier to work with. They understand the science, the art, the game, and they understand that a win-win must happen.

Ben:

Yeah, that's interesting. The empathy piece I think is quite important because the buyers that I still know in the industry, they've had a pretty miserable 18 months actually. I know it's on both sides, but the amount of kind of requests coming into them from a cost and commercial perspective has been unremitting. That's pretty much certainly the ones that I talk to.

That's all they've dealt with. That's not a particularly kind of joyful thing to do at all. You and I know as former buyers, that actually the much more kind of positive elements of a buying role are looking at kind of category strategy and how you increase the size of the pie, not how you kind of shrink margins and all that, all that type of thing. There's very little of that. I think it is just unremitting. So I do think that empathy is a good place to start. Yep.

Darren A. Smith:

It is. It is very tough for them on both sides. They both want to get through this. They don't want a fourth or fifth or sixth round of price increases on either side. Unfortunately, it's the way the world is. They've got to get through it and they've got to try and be friends at the end of it.

Ben:

From your dealings across the industry, do you see the retailers giving their buyers a lot of support at the moment in terms of kind either negotiation skills, training or just general kind of support for what they're going through?

Darren A. Smith:

I think there is a lot of support out there. It's also not forgetting that it's damn tough. I think no matter what support you give, ultimately, you've got to go up against that cold face and you've got to face into every day, 3, 4, 5 price increase requests. Yeah. That you just don't want to deal with.

You'd rather deal with the other stuff that grows the category; not just makes you stand still. It's a bit like getting service on our car at times, isn't it? You go to the garage, you get your service, you pay your 500 quid, get back in your car, and nothing's different. Price increases can feel a little bit like that. A lot of hard work for not a lot.

Ben:

Yeah. And there's certainly the benefit to the consumer is not obvious. It's not front of mind, is it? There's no real kind of change to shelf price in many of these instances. So yeah. Difficult times.

Darren A. Smith:

No one's going to thank you for it. The shop is not thanking you for higher increases.

Ben:

No.

Darren A. Smith:

The buyer's not thanking you, and so forth. Let's see if we can help some of these guys to be more effective negotiators and make their life maybe 1% better.

Ben:

Yeah. Indeed, indeed. So, on that note, there are seven areas that we're going to talk about today that you work with on a daily basis in terms of the work that you would or the kind of approaches that you would advise people to adopt when it comes to improving negotiation skills.

So I guess in terms of the obvious first one to start with is preparation. I've heard you reference this term of the squaredance before. How do you kind of work with people when they're preparing for a negotiation, first of all?

Darren A. Smith:

So it's worth providing some context first of all. There are roughly four stages of negotiation. If you were to Google it, there are four or 5, 6, 7....

Is Drinking No Longer an In-crowd Kind of Thing?

Join Janet Hadley and Darren A. Smith in an all-new podcast episode on the British drinking culture. Hear why the British drinking culture has changed in the 21st century and its impact on how leaders encourage inclusivity in the workplace. Learn other cool things like the origin of beer and statistics on the leading cause of absenteeism and fights in the workplace.

You Can Read the Full Transcript Below:

Darren A. Smith:

Welcome to S***s and Giggles with HR. We are with the lovely Janet Hadley. How are you?

Janet Hadley:

I'm very well, thank you.

Darren A. Smith:

We've entitled this podcast or video if you watch it by video — this was Janet's idea — the Elephant in the well-being room. Is that right?

Janet Hadley:

That's correct. Okay.

Darren A. Smith:

I'm intrigued and I'm going to ask you more about that. But firstly, before we move on, why should we talk to you about British drinking culture? Because that's what I know our topic's about.

Janet Hadley:

So the reason why you should talk to me about British drinking culture is because I am on a mission to create a drink-safe workspace without killing the boss and that is what we do here at Choose Sunrise. I guess what brought me here is my own personal experience. I've worked in large corporations since all my jobs apart from my pay ground have been in large corporations basically.

Darren A. Smith:

Right.

Janet Hadley:

I've always been a big drinker. Those two things go very nicely together actually as it turns out. So I was a big drinker at school actually, from the age of 14. A big drinker through sixth form, a big drinker through university. I thought, do you know what? I'm going to have to calm this down a bit when I get my first proper job. I was wrong.

I had to dial it up a bit because when I joined the trading floor of a large supermarket whose head office is based in Leeds, I was quite shocked actually. It was such a boozy culture. So it suited me down to the ground at the time. We would be out from 4:00 PM till 4:00 AM on a Friday.

Darren A. Smith:

Oh. That's heavy.

Janet Hadley:

It's probably heavy, isn't it? I never saw anything wrong with it. It was almost a culture where you had to be part of that in-crowd in order to be considered for promotion.

Darren A. Smith:

Right. Okay.

Janet Hadley:

I do remember there being a couple of pregnant, well, not pregnant women. Well, there were pregnant women or people who were recently back from maternity leave who I feel so guilty for now knowing I was in this. But they weren't part of the in-crowd. They weren't ever out in the pub with us, and they were passed up for promotion.

There was a real culture of, well, they're only part-time and they're not really serious about their careers. It's a horrible toxic culture actually for someone to work in who has a young child. I actually do feel incredibly guilty now looking back on it and thinking about how I was part of that.

Actually, I mean, fast forward to a couple of years ago when I decided to stop drinking, which I've obviously missed out on. It's a huge amount of story.

I really only saw for the first time how much British drinking culture in the workplace had influenced me. I would never say it was my employer's fault that I developed a problem with my drinking. But it certainly didn’t hurt. If you wanted to create a culture where someone would develop a drinking problem, that would be it.

Many people develop drinking problems due to the drinking culture in the workplace

 

Darren A. Smith:

Okay. So there's a hell of a story there from heavy drinking. Now, you haven't had a drink for two years.

Janet Hadley:

Two and a half years. Nearly three.

Darren A. Smith:

Okay. You were by no means an alcoholic. You were just part of the drinking culture.

Janet Hadley:

Well, this is a very interesting question because there is no formal definition of an alcoholic. So I don't really use the term alcoholic. People tend to think that there are normal drinkers and there are alcoholics and there's not a lot in the middle. And the truth of the matter is that most drinkers are somewhere in that grey area in between those two ends of the spectrum.

Actually, sometimes what happens is, like, in my case, I had some really devastating news. So people do face death and bereavement and trauma and serious illness and things like that as they get into the forties generally.

Darren A. Smith:

Yeah.

Janet Hadley:

It can really, be for someone who's always turned to alcohol at the end of every stressful day or at every Friday night, or for every celebration and commiseration ever for their whole life. When you get some news like that, you end up drinking. My relationship with alcohol really changed, became much darker and it started to be a kind of drinking-to-forget relationship with alcohol rather than a drinking-to-have-fun relationship with alcohol.

I think that's, well, it is very common. There are all kinds of reasons why people find themselves in trouble with alcohol. And there doesn't have to be a reason, let's face it, it's an addictive substance that we are subjected to marketing on a daily basis. Active marketing, passive marketing, it's just everywhere.

It's no wonder really that some people find that they're having trouble controlling it. So I'm not sure about the word alcoholic. I'd almost argue that anyone who drinks regularly probably is something of an alcoholic because they keep drinking.

Darren A. Smith:

Okay. Alright. I'm intrigued by something particularly you said so far. So you said drink safe workspace.

Janet Hadley:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

I've heard that before.

Janet Hadley:

Yeah. So that's a phrase that I've coined to describe what we do here at Choose Sunrise. I'm not in the business of telling people to stop drinking and to have teetotal workplaces. I am in the business of making the workplace a place where people can find support if they need it. I'm in the business of making the workplace more inclusive for people who choose not to drink.

I'm in the business of making the workplace somewhere that is psychologically safe for people to speak the truth about how they feel about their drinking and their relationship with alcohol. I run a  peer support group called the Sober Curious Society in the workplace.

Darren A. Smith:

So Curious. Yep.

Janet Hadley:

Yep, yep. That is a safe space where people can explore their relationship with alcohol, with no judgment in the workplace, with all the people who are their colleagues and peers, perhaps, you know, there'll be some senior leaders in there, there'll be some very junior people in there. Everyone's in there for the same reason.

They're interested in exploring their relationship with alcohol and potentially doing something to change it. They get all the resources that they need to do that if they wish to. There is no pressure for them to go sober or do anything other than turn up and listen and chat.

Darren A. Smith:

So, it's not as if you're a vegan society trying to stop the meat eaters.

Janet Hadley:

Exactly. It's about giving people a different perspective. When I was growing up, my heroes were people like Zoe Ball and Sarah Cox. I was a proper nineties ladette drinker, and all my role models were drinkers. My parents were big drinkers. All my relatives, like my friends, my everyone was a drinker. I never ever had any sober role models. I think that's true of a lot of people my age.

I think going into the workplace and being a sober role model and actually sharing stories about the journey to deciding to stop drinking in a workplace setting can be so important and inspiring for people. I get emails on a fairly regular basis saying, I saw one of your talks six months ago, nine months ago, two years ago, and it's only now that I've decided to stop, but I just wanted to say thank you because you were the first person I'd ever come across who like just told their story about stopping drinking.

It's so relatable for so many people, but it's become quite a taboo subject and people find it very difficult to say, I need some help with my drinking.

Darren A. Smith:

I get that. Well, we're seeing more and more sober October, Dry January.

Janet Hadley:

Yeah, February. Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

I read the other day something like, there's a high percentage of millennials who don't drink. I got that right?

Janet Hadley:

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. There really are. One of the big factors that affect that is the rise of social media. So there is a real fear amongst younger people of drunk photographs appearing on social media and that has been an important change. You know, let's face it, if there'd been social media when I was that age, I don't think I would've had a career.

Darren A. Smith:

I would've gone out. Yeah.

Janet Hadley:

No, exactly. So there's that enough, but also you can't get served under 18 anymore. You need ID to get served everywhere. That certainly wasn’t the case when I was that age. Young people are much more health conscious. I've got teenage daughters and they go climbing and bouldering, they go to coffee shops, they go into town, they go shopping, but I don't stop them from drinking. They're allowed to drink. They just choose not to.

Darren A. Smith:

That generation, they seem much more aware than we were. They're aware of the planet, they're aware of what they're eating, aware of diet, that they're drinking water. I don't think I drank water until I was 35. Yeah. They seem much more educated. They know what they want.

Janet Hadley:

Yes, I agree. I think they've got the heads screwed on better than certainly I did at that age.

Darren A. Smith:

Feels like it. I've got a list here of questions. So we're going to do a quick fire round if that's alright. There're questions that people type into Google and they want to get the answer from an expert....

Shits and Giggles with HR Episode #1

What is Right About the Recruitment Industry Could Be Written on a Stamp!

Join Lisa Haggar and Katrina Collier to discuss what is wrong with the recruitment industry. The horror stories of people going through 6 rounds to get a job and then getting no reply, or how people receiving job offers then leave their job, only to be told that the job they applied for & won, has been made redundant before they even start!

Sharing Resources Mentioned By Katrina in the Podcast

Katrina's Website

The Robot-Proof Recruiter

Getting back to people:

https://circlebackinitiative.com/

https://end-ghosting.com/

Places to feedback:

https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/interview/

https://indeed.com

https://www.kununu.com/

https://www.reddit.com/r/recruitinghell

You Can Read the Shits and Giggles with HR Episode #1: What is Right About the Recruitment Industry Could Be Written on a Stamp! Transcript Below:

What is wrong with the recruitment industry?

 

Darren A. Smith:

Let's start. Welcome to the Shitz and Giggles with HR podcast. We're here with Lisa. Haggar, Lisa. Say hello, please.

Lisa Haggar:

Good evening. Hello everybody.

Darren A. Smith:

And we're also here with Katrina Collier. Hello, Katrina.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Hello.

Darren A. Smith:

Hi I'm your host, Darren Smith. We'll come back to these lovely ladies in a moment. Our topic for tonight and I'm going to blame Lisa for this is what is right about the recruitment industry could be written on a stamp. Katrina, I'm just gonna come to you and ask what's your name in this game? What do you do?

Darren A. Smith:

Let's stop listening.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

So I am best known as the author of the Robot Proof Recruiter that I have been in the recruitment industry for nearly two decades, and I spend most of my time delivering design thinking workshops to fix candidate experience and recruitment. And I also have a coaching and mentoring group that's probably me in a nutshell, but plenty plenty of experience in their recruitment and talent acquisition space.

Darren A. Smith:

Brilliant. Brilliant. But we wanna get into that and ask you what's wrong with this industry. Let me just come to Lisa for first. Lisa, what do you do?

Lisa Haggar:

It's a good question. I tell people I knit Jelly for a living because when you tell them the work in HR, it switches people off quicker than if you're the tax man. So I knit Jelly Darren.

Darren A. Smith:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

Yeah. It's. OK. That's good.

Lisa Haggar:

Or otherwise known as the ******** from HR Queen of HR on LinkedIn, the opinionated small 5 foot blonde who has a lot to say about most things.

Darren A. Smith:

Lovely. And how do you guys know each other?

Katrina Collier (Guest):

LinkedIn.

Lisa Haggar:

Uh, Katrina's fabulous, and I know everybody who's fabulous on LinkedIn. Simple.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Is it LinkedIn? I don't know how we know each other. That's hilarious. Yeah, LinkedIn.

Lisa Haggar:

It is, yes, yes, I remember. I remember the day we met Katrina. Do you mean you? You can't remember that wonderful time? I don't know.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

Well, thank you both.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Menopause.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Hmm.

Darren A. Smith:

Thank you both for joining us for ***** and Giggles, HR podcast. Katrina, let's start with you. So at the topic is what's wrong with the recruitment industry? What's wrong with it?

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Ohh I thought it was what's right with it that you could write in the back of a postage stamp.

Darren A. Smith:

Ohh, actually let's start the then. See even better what's right with it.

Darren A. Smith:

But.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Yeah, because that that really, really made me laugh. Because when Lisa sent me that, I just thought Katrina Collier. That'll fit on the back of a postage stamp. And I thought, you arrogant little so and so, which just totally I was actually sent Lisa a voice note because I was laughing so hard at my own joke because I just thought it was so funny and so arrogant all the world into one.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

But you know it.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

That we have lost the human touch. That's what's wrong with recruitment. Somehow we've put all the tools and all of the technology and and even data, everything. We just put everything in the way of human connection because it really is about.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

One human trying to find another human to work with another human. This is complicated as that.

Darren A. Smith:

Yep.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

And we've just, we've just made it.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

So ridiculously complex with all this technology. Hence the book is called the Robot Proof Recruiter because it's all about, let's just clear out the technology that's in the way and use it to create a better human connection. So that's what I think I would be interested to hear what Lisa thinks having been through the recruitment process a few times.

Lisa Haggar:

Uh, yeah. What can I say is we do have technology which I get allows companies to be efficient and I'm using air quotes even though you can't see me to be efficient in dealing with the thousands of people who may respond to a job advert.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Yeah, like the 50.

Lisa Haggar:

Yeah, right. Yeah, right. The my biggest bug bear. And there's a few. I'll just list them in. No particular order is one they use a, you know, some kind of a TTS system, which from the HR departments point of view we talk about inclusion and yet it's the most inclusive inclusion.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Umm.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Hmm.

Lisa Haggar:

It it just doesn't, you know, if you don't write something the right way, it doesn't highlight it put you to the top of the pile. It's not inclusive as in, you know, people who are neurodiverse. They may not have a three page full of word, CV. They might have an infographic CV because it expresses them how they need to be expressed and how they learn and how they need to read things. So it's just not inclusive. And I love the fact that we have automation and yet you'll go onto LinkedIn right now and on the bottom of nearly.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Hmm.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Umm.

Lisa Haggar:

Every single job advert says if you haven't heard us back in four days, you haven't made it love. Sorry about that. Move up. And yet it's two clicks of a button on an eighth to reject somebody and I and it just blows my brain. It's just lazy. Recruitment is my view.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

What's? It's not only that as well, it's 86% of applicants.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

If they're ghosted so they don't hear back from the recruiter, become down or depressed.

Darren A. Smith:

Wow.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Now recruiters complain.

Lisa Haggar:

Yeah, it's the effect you're dealing with another human being. It's disgusting.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Yeah, well, yeah. But it's, it's that we we we create. We're making people down or depressed. Recruiters get ghosted by candidates all the time. And I think you know what says you're right. Cause you've been ghosting people for like 2 decades. So yeah, paybacks a bit. However, we don't get when we're ghosted. It's just annoying.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

We get irritated, you know? OK, there'll be some recruiters out there who probably like, well, I lose Commission. So I do get a bit upset. It's like, well, yeah, you know, don't bank it until they start, but it's not the same as this poor job seeker who over and over and over is getting ghosted and is feeling down or depressed. And it was actually really interesting writing the 2nd edition.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Is to put some new examples in and I saw a girl had pasted her spreadsheet of her 32 applications as she put this as a post on LinkedIn and she showed all the times that she was ghosted cause to her just applying for a job and not hearing back was ghosted. And that's really different to what recruiters think as well. So that's certainly a big problem, and Lisa's right you are more than capable of using it to send hopefully a slightly personalized, helpful rejection notice.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Uh-huh.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Sure.

Darren A. Smith:

And Katrina, just on that, the the difference in the ghosting there, can you just explain that a bit further so we as humans think that we've been ghosted by the recruitment person, doesn't what what what's happening there?

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Yes. So when somebody applies for a job.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

I don't think a recruiter thinks that if they're not.

Darren A. Smith:

Umm.

Lisa Haggar:

Yeah.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

Saying to them, no, we've gone ahead with other applicants. I don't think they think ohh we are ghosting an applicant whereas the applicant thinks no. You're ghosting me because I haven't heard back. Even if they've never even had a screening call. They've never even had an interview. They're like, well, you ghosted me. You've not come back to me, which is really interesting.

Darren A. Smith:

Hmm.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

So, but it's the the fact is that no, not every single company has an applicant tracking system. I mean, in the startup world, they're probably lucky if they're on anything more than an Excel spreadsheet, but in general, people are more than capable of replying and letting somebody know and. And to be honest, even if they don't have an applicant tracking system.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

As as that fury gave me this tip, she's like, change your e-mail signature to a rejection signature that you can just then use and just quick shoot back an e-mail, change the signature, personalize it a bit, shoot it off.

Lisa Haggar:

Yeah.

Darren A. Smith:

Yeah.

Katrina Collier (Guest):

But Lisa's right....