Making Sense of Martech

Justin Price is the senior manager of multichannel marketing at the Milwaukee Bucks. He built the team's SMS program from scratch inside a legacy Marketo stack. The welcome journey delivers 104x ROI and a 38% conversion rate. Checkout abandonment runs 233x. Subscriber growth hit 455%. The team behind it is five people across five brands.

This conversation covers how Attentive connects to Marketo through third-party middleware, why identity resolution is the next frontier, and what actually moved the unsubscribe rate in a 32-50 year. It wasn't the record. It was the trade-rumor cycle.

Sports marketing runs on a level of seasonality few marketers manage. A rumor breaks, your list reacts, and you had no hand in the news. Justin explains how that shapes send strategy, why RCS is still on the bench, and why he'd start with an imperfect solution rather than wait for the perfect stack.

Timestamps

02:30 — Keep one channel: why Justin picks email over SMS

06:07 — The rumor mill moves the unsubscribe rate

07:52 — Hottest take: AI will not replace human capital as fast as people think

15:20 — Identity resolution is the next frontier

20:47 — Concierge reps and the fans who just want to be heard

22:59 — RCS is still on the bench

29:43 — Eight years in the NBA: stay flexible, let fandom fuel the work

35:49 — Best solution beats perfect solution

37:31 — All-in-one versus best-of-breed

41:48 — Set it and forget it: the in-season automation playbook

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Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.

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Courtney Tierney spent years on the agency side telling brands what their CRM strategy should be. Now she's the one whose name is on the result. As director of CRM and customer engagement at Papa John's, she owns how the brand communicates with 42 million loyalty members across email, push notifications, SMS, and in-app channels. The gap between advising and owning is real, and this conversation gets into exactly where it shows.

Before Papa John's, Courtney was the senior director of account planning and research at Digital Additive, a Salesforce Marketing Cloud agency, where she worked with brands such as Grammarly and WeWork. She also spent time in-house at IHG. She's crossed the agency-to-client line more than once, which makes her perspective on what each side gets wrong about the other harder to dismiss than most.

This episode covers QSR category assumptions that fall apart in a pitch room, why deliverability is insurance, not overhead, how franchise models create competing contact strategies in the same inbox, and why the conventional wisdom to stay in your lane, agency or client side, is worth ignoring entirely.

Timestamps

03:55 — Agency energy vs. in-house ownership

05:10 — QSR pizza is not QSR

09:10 — Certifications, genuine expertise or the game

12:53 — Launch before your reporting is ready, and you're guessing

17:50 — Generalist agencies vs. CRM specialists

25:37 — Deliverability jail, a real story

30:17 — Cross-channel frequency and the national versus local fight

38:35 — Geo-targeting competitors at the zip code level

47:24 — Ignore the stay-in-your-lane advice

Sponsor

Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.

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"It shouldn't be consolidated or best-of-breed. I think it could be consolidated and best-of-breed." — Vinicius

Vinicius Rodrigues has spent his career arguing that fragmentation is a legitimate strategy, not a failure to consolidate. He also cut six figures in martech spend through consolidation. As head of marketing technology and operations at Mindbody, now part of Playlist, he manages the global martech stack across North America, EMEA, and APAC, three regions where almost nothing about how customers respond to automation is the same.

Before Mindbody, at Lojas Renner in Brazil, he ran a WhatsApp commerce pilot that generated 30x ROI and identified $20 million in revenue potential, in a market most US martech leaders have never touched. At Mindbody, he built the company's first marketing AI agent from scratch.

This episode is a pressure test of his own framework. If best-of-breed is always contextual, at what point does context become a convenient explanation for whatever decision you already made?

Timestamps

00:01 — Principled fragmentation or consolidation with better branding

04:00 — Agentic AI, the new overhyped buzzword

05:30 — WhatsApp in the US: hopeful but skeptical

12:00 — Unlimited budget, same philosophy

17:36 — Back-testing AI before trusting it with pipeline

19:45 — AI as safety net, not gatekeeper

24:30 — Localize even your research: G2 vs. Trustpilot

29:00 — The WhatsApp fashion stylist, before "agentic" was a word

37:00 — Platform roadmaps favor the biggest market

44:05 — Bilingual as a dual market lens

Sponsor

Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.

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"We don't want to be the dumb pipe. We want to be the brain for your marketing. And I'm sorry, everyone can't be the brain. You can't have five brains." — Peter

Peter Oleson is back, and the guardrails are off. Part 2 picks up where the dumb pipe debate left off and delves into the operational and economic realities that a composable stack actually demands of vendors, marketers, and the AI agents everyone's betting on. The thesis gets pressure-tested from every angle: vendor survival, job market implications, and whether the economics of AI decisioning even hold up yet.

This episode covers the MAP convergence already underway, why "warehouse native" is often a marketing claim rather than a technical reality, and what questions buyers should actually ask vendors instead of accepting alphabet soup at face value.

If you missed part one, start there →

Timestamps

00:45 — Sustainable growth vs. big contracts

03:30 — 90% piloting, 23% actually shipping

04:48 — The highest and best use of your time

06:15 — Why all AI emails look the same

12:40 — The AI budget crack analogy

16:45 — The race to the middle is real

21:55 — Frontline gets it, leadership doesn't

26:03 — No one is truly adapting yet

27:30 — Stop asking if they're composable

33:21 — Marketers must reclaim their seat at the table

Sponsor

Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.

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"By definition, most marketing automation platforms are creating silos, not breaking them down. They're in the business of creating copies of data." — Peter

Peter Oleson spent years inside the machine. Salesforce Marketing Cloud architect at Merkle, then Iterable, running live demos of the exact journey builders he now argues are the wrong model. Today, he's making the case that marketing automation platforms should stop trying to be the brain and start being a better pipe. 

That is a specific, testable claim, and Jacqueline holds it to the fire – oh, and this is just Part 1. Part 2 next week.

The central bet is worth stating plainly: Marketing Automation Platforms (MAPs) should stop trying to understand the customer and instead become the system that reliably executes a decision made elsewhere. If Peter is right, an entire category of enterprise software loses its core value proposition. If he is wrong, he is selling a solution that requires a seven-figure engineering headcount that never appears on any vendor invoice.

This episode covers accountability in the age of AI agents, the real cost structures of composable versus bundled platforms, why "breaking down data silos" has always been more of a sales pitch than an architectural reality, and which move by a modern MAP would fundamentally reshape the competitive landscape.

Timestamps

03:12 — The Sendomatic 5000: marketing automation's humble beginnings

11:40 — Vote with your feet: why talk is cheap in martech

13:00 — Before AI agents, humans were already getting it wrong

15:19 — You can't abdicate accountability to AI agents

21:45 — Composable martech finally unites lifecycle and performance teams

25:14 — Data portability isn't a tax. It's an investment with dividends

37:50 — Who becomes the first modern "dumb pipe"?

41:40 — Unify the data, personalize the moment: why every martech pitch sounds the same

49:04 — When the data silo is your only lifeline

Sponsor

Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.

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Stephanie Griffith has experience in retention and lifecycle marketing across brand, agency, and platform roles, making her a rare, credible voice on RCS business messaging. In this episode, she sits at the center of a real contradiction: selling brands on a channel that runs 15-30% CTR, with standout campaigns topping 50, while those same brands sit in an 8-to-16-week carrier-approval queue with no clear timeline on the other side.

This is an honest breakdown of what the RCS approval process actually requires, where brands consistently blow it, and why the wait is still worth it. 

Stephanie also argues that SMS optimization and RCS prep are not competing priorities. They run in parallel, and the brands treating them that way will hit the ground running when the channel opens up.

Timestamps

01:35 — From CheetahMail to Klaviyo: Fourteen years, one career arc, told through the tools she's used.

01:50 — Kill Email, Make Room for Better: Email hasn't evolved in 20+ years, and it's built on bad consent. Time's up.

03:58 — SaaS Shilling Has No Credibility: Calling out influencers who evangelize whatever platform pays them, no receipts required.

05:15 — Three Hottest Takes in Marketing: It depends is the only honest best practice. Send fewer, better messages.

06:10 — Selling Patience to a Q4 Brand: The RCS wait isn't downtime; it's the exact moment for SMS optimization.

34:34 — RCS: The Great Equalizer: The only channel that satisfies marketers and consumers at once, no download required.

35:20 — Consumers Are Already Here: Brands aren't introducing RCS. They're catching up to what people already use daily.

42:00 — Even Google Isn't Done Building: Adopting RCS now doesn't put brands behind. It puts them right where the platform is.

Sponsor

Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.

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"There is a version of AI adoption where efficiency just becomes a euphemism for doing more with less: you automate 30% of somebody's work, immediately fill that capacity with more work, and just move on." — Elizabeth

Elizabeth Martin's team at Babylist cut newsletter production time from 2 hours to 15 minutes, freeing up 600 hours a year, using Claude, an Iterable MCP, and a Notion-based copy pipeline. Her AI-lifecycle-marketing system has been called one of the most advanced MCP implementations among her ESP's clients, built in three months, with every failure documented along the way.

This isn't a theoretical AI conversation. Elizabeth walks through QA failures, an API key gap caught live on air, and what "30% more output" really costs a team, inside a company expanding into new verticals while the U.S. birth rate hits a generational low.

Timestamps

03:00 — The Role-Blurring Tax: The same AI capability that grants independence also creates friction when a team is expected to be experts in everything; the cognitive and labor load quietly expands alongside the power.

07:10 — Independence as the Real AI Dividend: Beyond workflow automation, Claude gave Elizabeth's team direct access to their data layer and API triggers, blurring the line between engineering and lifecycle marketing.

12:11 — Hiring While Using AI: Babylist is growing headcount, not cutting it. AI as a tool to do more with more, not to replace workers.

16:30 — Security, HIPAA, and the Line You Don't Cross: How Babylist keeps registry data and HIPAA-protected health data cleanly separated across systems.

22:11 — What the MCP Still Can't Do: Journey tile QA, audience field definitions, and multivariate notification tests are the real gaps behind the "most advanced" headline.

23:30 — The Moat Is the People: Asked whether the competitive advantage is the tool or something else, Elizabeth's answer is unambiguous: it's the people. Technology augments the engine, but the engine is human.

25:45 — The Pod Model and the Seat at the Table: Embedding lifecycle marketers directly into product team standups changed what the function owns, driving end-to-end strategy through production rather than being pulled in at the end to send a triggered email.

30:05 — Anyone Can Create an MCP: A real governance risk hiding inside MCP democratization: the line between empowerment and security exposure is thinner than most teams realize and requires active, ongoing conversation with an AI enablement team.

33:22 — Efficiency as Euphemism Warning: Why AI efficiency can quietly become code for doing more with less and the better bet marketing leaders should make instead.

35:55 — Slow Down to Speed Up: Real AI automation requires upfront investment in documentation and process clarity. If you want to automate a year from now, start writing everything down today.

45:36 — Fastest AI Wins Are in Verification, Not Creation: Babylist cut newsletter production from 12 hours to 15 minutes mostly by automating quality assurance, reframing where teams should look first when adopting AI.

Sponsor

Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.

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I was the one in the hot seat this time. Bloomreach's Divya Mulanjur flipped the mic on me...

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"AI-powered is one thing, but I feel like we're seeing this renewed focus on human-powered. Buying the tool is just a tiny little part of that journey, making the most of it, getting it implemented; there's a human story there." — Phil Gamache

One year of Making Sense of Martech, and for the anniversary episode, Jacqueline brought in her main competitor: Phil Gamache, host of Humans of Martech and one of the most honest voices in marketing operations.

Six years in, Phil treats practitioners not as insight-dispensing experts but as actual humans navigating a chaotic, often lonely job. He's still figuring it out alongside everyone else. That's the point.

His in-house career spans 13 years across WordPress, Close.com, and everything in between. Now a full-time solo creator, he runs a production stack powered by Claude and Cursor, crafts episode cover art in Midjourney by hand, and has strong opinions about why nobody should let a language model make every decision for them.

This one gets into the martech island problem, what actually made Humans of Martech a viable business, the attribution philosophy battle, and why the vendors winning in 2026 are leading with humans, not features.

Timestamps

03:06 — Why Humans of Martech Really Exists: Built for practitioners lost on the martech island, including people who just lost their jobs and don't know what's next. Never about consulting leads. Always about the humans.

08:00 — AI-Powered Is the Default Now: The new differentiator isn't having AI in your stack; it's how well you show the product and the humans behind it. Buyers are increasingly making decisions on vibes, not G2 scores.

18:30 — You're Not Alone on the Island: The core emotional value of Humans of Martech: knowing that practitioners at Canva, Uber, and Meta are wrestling with the same problems you are is genuinely reassuring.

25:01 — AI Mock Interview for Guest Prep: Phil uses Claude Code to build a dynamic guest persona, run a mock interview across three rounds, and surface better questions through iterative, AI-driven prep before a human ever reads the output.

33:00 — The Full Production Stack: From transcript ingestion to blog post generation to Midjourney cover art by hand, Phil walks through every node in his solo creator workflow and where human judgment still has to show up.

41:42 — The Empathy Gap in AI Hype: If you're not getting laid off, you're five times more stressed with five times more expected output. The practitioners behind the tools are caught in a genuinely difficult inflection point.

51:18 — Attribution Is a Philosophy Battle: Getting attribution right is a philosophical one: data teams think like statisticians, marketers think like investors, and those two worldviews have to be reconciled before any tool can help.

55:54 — Truth, Feeling Seen, and What's Next: The show's enduring mission: bring truth to the industry and help practitioners feel seen. One year in, that mission is just getting started.

Sponsor

Brought to you by Hightouch, the leading composable CDP and decisioning platform trusted by brands like Domino's, Chime, and Aritzia. 90% of customers have a real use case live within their first week, delivering world-class personalization at scale. Learn more at hightouch.com/msom.

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We're going down the rabbit hole together again in this week's second Breakdown essay episode. Be sure to listen to part 1 first here.

Greek mythology meets the Hunger Games. Borrowed wings, borrowed fire, borrowed trust. 🔥🪽

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