What to do when air is 'bad'
James Matthews of Carbon Intelligence on getting indoor air quality right.
James is an Associate Director responsible for implementing Carbon Intelligence’s Health and Wellbeing service. A qualified WELL Accredited Professional (AP) and Fitwel Ambassador, able to advise how best to implement health and wellbeing strategies to workplaces.
James provides consultancy services for landlords, developers and occupiers around sustainability and wellness in the built environment; from integrating sustainability and wellbeing into property management activities to full certification services. He has advised a large organisation to deliver the WELL Building Standard to a 110,000 sq. ft. office refurbishment in Canary Wharf. James has also worked with a developer to deliver the WELL Building Standard for a 95,000 sq. ft. grade A office development in Scotland. Matthews works with Carbon Intelligence’s clients to identify opportunities to improve the sustainability performance of managed properties.
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Michael Moran [00:00:00] This is manifest density. Hello, everyone, and welcome to this edition of Manifest Density. Your host, Michael Moran, here to explore the intersection of COVID 19 global business and society. Manifest density is brought to you by the Global Smart Building and ESG data company Microshare unleashed the data today. I'm speaking with James Mathews, who who is an associate director at Carbon Intelligence, one of our partners in the UK. And James is an expert in indoor air quality. He has in the past been a senior consultant as at you know, he has also been a senior consultant at Avison Young, another big UK advisory firm where he was a sustainability consultant and he has done a lot of work from his days at the University of Exeter to today dealing with clients in the UK. James, give us a little background on yourself and how you come into contact with questions like quality.
James Matthews [00:01:08] Yeah. So I'm James MATTHEWS. I working for Carbon Intelligence. I've been prior to that with a young 6 to 7 years looking at the wellbeing standards, building standards and looking at how that can be implemented into buildings. Bit kind of from a land developer point into the base building and also from fit out project level work. So it's yeah, really interesting space and I'm very kind of keen to talk about it and have a conversation with you.
Michael Moran [00:01:47] Well, we are living at a time, you know, we're not post-pandemic yet, but people are, you know, eager to look beyond and hopefully get past it. But we're living in a world with change expectations about all sorts of things. One of those things is the kind of wellness and safety of the indoor spaces that they're going to spend a good deal of their time in. So a workplace is a great example. Obviously, commercial real estate in the office sector especially are eager to see people flowing back in. So are the people who run cities who worry about tax revenue and street level commerce. So we now know that air quality is part of the demand or expectation that some people have if they're going to go back into these offices. What are you seeing in the marketplace in that regard?
James Matthews [00:02:44] So I think my observations would be prior to COVID and the kind of lockdowns that everyone saw around the world, that well being kind of narrative was all around productivity. And with regards to sort of indoor air quality, it was looking at reducing vaccines and the impacts that that can have on people's health. Volatile organic compounds should say, but also kind of carbon dioxide levels. So there's been some really interesting research that suggests that proves that if you have CO2 levels that go over 1200 parts per million can have a real cognitive impact on your ability, sort of impact on your cognitive ability. So anecdotally, that's the equivalent of maybe going out for lunch and having a couple of pints. So I've been told and it's it's that kind of slowing down of your mental ability and it's it's all around that productivity piece. If you imagine you're in the boardroom and you've got the most important people in your in your company thrashing out a big deal and they've been in there for hours. The indoor air quality is going to be poor. Can you be certain that decisions they're making at the end of the meeting are the best decisions that they are sort of they're able to do, able to perform? And it's it's kind of that that was where wellness was prior to the shift I've seen kind of in the market is. As you say, we're not post COVID, but wherever we are in this sort of return to office stage is about reassuring people that the space they now choose to operate in. Because we've all been working, majority of us been working from home for the last year and a half, two years or so. So it is possible with the space that we now choose to go back into the office is healthy. It is health. It is. It is it is a place that isn't going to do us any harm.
Michael Moran [00:05:01] So give us an idea of the cognitive effects and other effects that that getting CO2 and other things about air quality wrong will have on a space.
James Matthews [00:05:14] And yes, it's been proven that CO2 can have a real impact on your cognitive ability. And anecdotally, that's the equivalent of potentially having to pay a couple of points at lunchtime and then going back into the office. And it's that kind of slowing down and that slightly fuzzy, hazy feeling that you might have. And it's that impact on any decisions that you may then have that. Getting the indoor air quality wrong. Could lead to. Imagine if you've got a boardroom full of executives thrashing out the latest deal and they've been in there for hours. The CO2 levels could be going through the roof. Are they are you confident that they're making the correct decisions based on the indoor air quality? So it does it does have a real, tangible impact on people's performance.
Michael Moran [00:06:05] Sure. And it could be a doctor's office where they're making decisions that are relevant to your life and death. So obviously, these are not small issues. So I have to ask, as you're in the world and you're seeing the demand for this certainly is there among people who now feel compelled to go back into the office, they kind of want to know. But what what about the the kind of purchaser of this kind of a capability, air quality monitoring? Who is that is and what what are the types of people that would buy this? And what different kind of lenses do they view this through?
James Matthews [00:06:42] So, yeah, I think you can look at this from a landlord developer point of view if you're developing your next asset. Wellbeing is very much about sort of ten or 15 years ago where sustainability was. Sustainability used to be a nice to have. Now it's a must have. Without it, your asset is already going to be behind the curve against its competition. The indoor air quality and wellbeing is very much kind of on the up and is is being used as a as a USP. So I have experience with a couple of projects in Glasgow, in Scotland, and there was a project there that we were working on and they specifically targeted the well building standards because a building opposite going up in a similar sort of time that was also targeting the well building standards. So it's very much about kind of creating a premium product in the market. And of course, well, building is going to ultimately have greater value when it's sold than it's probably going to attract a higher rent. Right. Absolutely. Yet there's been there's been some interesting figures coming from from the US that would suggest assets with wellbeing certificates can command a high premium bit for rent.
Michael Moran [00:08:04] Hold that thought. We're going to take a quick break here from our sponsor.
Sponsor [00:08:10] Manifest density is brought to you by Microshare, a world leader in the technologies that are helping the world return to work safely. Our ever smart suite of smart facility solutions, including indoor air quality monitoring, predictive cleaning and room occupancy solutions, bring safety, wellness, sustainability and operational cost savings to indoor spaces. Learn more at microshare. I. O.
Michael Moran [00:08:39] Okay. I'm back with James Mathews Carbon Intelligence. James, as, as you confer with clients and advise them on things to do. What is the kind of intersection of these various building certifications? BREAM And well, lead and things like air quality, do they get credit for doing this? And is there are there certain standards that these these certification programs impose on them?
James Matthews [00:09:07] So from leading the in the UK isn't so much of a big thing. The main driver over here is Prem, which is fairly similar. There is a cross crossover between well and Brim I think for about 33% if memory serves. So if you do some credits within prem, you'll achieve them and well and vice versa. So that certainly leads to some efficiencies. It is definitely becoming more and more demand for in the market and we are talking to clients more and more regularly about implementing such certificates.
Michael Moran [00:09:46] And so if you let's say you implement indoor air quality monitoring. Is it in and of itself useful to know or. Are there a series of actionable? You know, data points, you're going to get that, you know, take you down a journey to improve the air quality.
James Matthews [00:10:11] Yeah, absolutely. So there are certain metrics because one of them said volatile organic compounds, and that's generally found from paint or off gassing, from new furniture or matchsticks, things like blues. And that's definitely something you can you'd see generally as a spike in new projects where things new, new kit and new furniture is brought into a space. You would potentially clear to the office of People for potentially up to two weeks, leave it with the air conditioning units and the fan crews running to extract as much of that gas out. And then you would then bring people back into the office. CO2 wise, you can increase the fan speeds, obviously, and circulate more and more out of the building. And that too will improve the indirect with.
Michael Moran [00:11:09] Have you come across situations where I mean, you know, pre-pandemic we would have called the sick building syndrome where air quality is just one element of something that's going on that leads you kind of to be a detective, try to figure out what's wrong with that.
James Matthews [00:11:27] In all honesty, I haven't had that experience, but I certainly have heard of it, and my experience is delivering it on projects. It's less of the sort of detective work. So I can't really talk to that.
Michael Moran [00:11:48] So I would imagine as you take someone through the process of improving the wellness of these indoor spaces. Air quality is just one thing. There's a number of different metrics that you might want to correlate, right? See, you know how densely occupied spaces is, what what the cleaning regimen is. You know, there's all sorts of interesting questions about decibels and lumens. How much of that do you get into in your day to day?
James Matthews [00:12:24] At Carbon Intelligence, we are predominantly focused on indoor air quality and although clients do want to look at implementing the standard, we will walk them through everything that's required of them and the wellbeing standards are quite flexible. So you can pick and choose metrics to to it to benefit your your particular fit out the building and that's the benefit of it. It's, it is flexible so you can choose what's kind of interesting to you and then we will walk them through all the different, the ten different requirements as a part of the standard.
Michael Moran [00:13:04] James, hold your thought. I'm going to take a quick break for our sponsor.
Sponsor [00:13:09] Microshare is proud to support Manifest Density, the podcast that examines the intersection of COVID 19 business and society. Each week we bring you conversation with global leaders and visionary enterprise nurse who are helping the world adapt and apply the tragic lessons of the pandemic so the planet can build back better. Subscribe to Manifest Density on our website microshare. I o. Or download it on Apple, iTunes, Google Play, iHeartRadio, Stitcher, and a host of other podcasting venues.
Michael Moran [00:13:48] Okay, I'm back with James MATTHEWS of Carbon Intelligence. James is a an expert in implementing indoor air quality, or at least in consulting on that. James Indoor air quality is one thing from the standpoint of the person who runs the building or owns the building, but what about the people who occupy it? How do you you must get questions about how much of this data should be shared with the the staff of a corporate space, for instance, and, you know, what kind of issues that might raise?
James Matthews [00:14:25] It's a tricky one, I think. If you are the landlord and you have a problem, you might be inclined not to share that information. If you're a tenant, then you're obviously going to be interested in your indoor air quality. I think the benefit of the market of where we are is that the democracy of data or the ability to access data is relatively cheap and easy these days so people can get hold of that information relatively quickly. If you are a tenant, for example, there are certain monitors that have really good standards that are only a couple of hundred pounds that you could implement. And having that information is key. It's the old adage of you can't you can't change what you don't monitor. And it's getting getting your hands on that data is invaluable if you want to make improvements and change into your space.
Michael Moran [00:15:28] But then it doesn't. There's still that ethical quandary. Joe, if you're a director of h.r. Or facilities management and you find you've got this data, it's not consistently good. Maybe it's good some days, not others are good in some spaces and not others. Do you democratize that data and show it to all the staff?
James Matthews [00:15:48] Yeah, that's a tricky one. I think you'd probably work with your facilities team and your landlord if you're a tenant or if you are the facilities manager working on behalf of the landlord, then you'd certainly use that data to drive improvements and look at ways to improve the space. I think obviously with people choosing to work from home and choosing to work in the office these days, you'll see a shift in occupation patterns as well. So typically you might see higher levels of been in poor indoor air quality on say, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. If people are choosing to occupy the office more in that time, you could then set about strategies to improve the indoor air quality, potentially running the course at a higher rate on those particular days, and then offset by saving a bit of energy and reducing the phone calls potentially on Wednesdays, sorry, on Mondays and Fridays, when you have low or no occupation.
Michael Moran [00:16:51] You bring up a really good point that I think when people think of indoor air quality monitors, they think of something that looks like a smoke detector that just sits there and detects the air, but it's really affected by a lot of things. One of the most important is that the quickest way to get poor air in a room is to put a lot of people in and close the door. Right. Because we do nothing but emit carbon when we breathe. And if you're not, ventilating that occupancy data is key to correlate with the air quality, right?
James Matthews [00:17:24] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. If you if you can marry the two, you've got a really powerful solution there.
Michael Moran [00:17:31] Well, we've already taken two breaks for the sponsor, so I won't tell our married solution here, but I think that's the idea. And it's not just occupancy, but there's other things that that affect to temperature, humidity. How often do you run into concern? I mean, you're working primarily in the UK, so it may be it may not be as big an issue as it would be in places like Beijing or Mumbai. How often do you run into concern about particulate matter? You know, the kind of the the outdoor pollution penetrating the indoor space.
James Matthews [00:18:06] I think there's a lot of concern, I think, in the U.K., this for especially in London, where you have quite a high traffic density. There's been recent kind of unfortunate examples of where there was a child that died and it was linked back to poor air quality because the school was on a on a highway, on a big, busy street. And it was it was proven that the not the sort of poor air quality of cars and trucks and everything that was was emitting was was a was the root cause of, unfortunately, this child's death, which is awful. But it is so it is a concern. And I think. Probably pre-pandemic when people were traveling more. There was more concern, I think. I would imagine this is my educated guess is that there's probably slightly less of an issue at the moment with people traveling less. But it's certainly it is an issue. And you do see, especially in London in the summer, you do see a sort of foggy haze sometimes when it's snowing and that there's no winds or anything and there is a real kind of issue. So I suppose it's more anecdotal than anything else, but there is there is certainly concern that I've noticed speaking to colleagues and clients as well.
Michael Moran [00:19:39] And, you know, here in the United States, this is a I almost said burning issue. That would be a little bit of color. This is a huge issue in the American West, where forest fires emit a lot of particulates into the air every year. Now, California, Colorado, where I live, there have been recent fires that made it unsafe to be in your house, you know, miles and miles from the actual event, just breathing the air. So I would imagine this is something we're going to see more of. And then, of course, you have cities like Beijing and Mumbai and industrial cities that burn coal. So it's not something going away as quickly as we might want. Right.
James Matthews [00:20:23] Yeah, absolutely it is. It is going to be a fact of life for for the foreseeable future. I think I was saying in Europe we are phasing out diesel in the UK and Europe. We are phasing out diesel engines. I'm not sure if that's happening in the US as well. And there is a huge, pretty big increase in EV charging and drivers as well. So the future is getting better and it will slowly phase down, but I think that's a fair way to go.
Michael Moran [00:20:56] And we can certainly thank Mr. Putin for keeping the oil pumping, but prices are very attractive for oil producers now, so the incentives don't always work in the direction that we might want for clean air. James, I wanted to ask, this has been fascinating. If you were to want to follow James MATTHEWS in your work and or carbon intelligence's work, what would be the best way to do that?
James Matthews [00:21:24] I would visit carbon.ci That's a web page and you can get more information on everything that we do there. And finally on LinkedIn, James MATTHEWS.
Michael Moran [00:21:37] James, I want to thank you again for being part of this manifest into the episode, and I wish you well in your work and be safe.
James Matthews [00:21:46] Thank you. Real pleasure to speak to you.
Michael Moran [00:21:52] And that's it for this edition of Manifest Density. Thank you, James Mathews for being our guest today. I'd like to remind everybody you can learn more about how Microshare is helping get the world safely back to work with our ever smart suite of products, including ever smart air and ever Smart, Clean, Ever Smart Space and energy management, ESG solutions as well. You can find more about these great solutions at WW w dot microshare i o. You can also subscribe to this podcast there or on iTunes, iHeartRadio, Google Play, Spotify, and many other platforms. Well, that'll do it for this week. On behalf of Microshare and all of its global employees, this is Michael Moran saying So long. Be well. And breathe clean air.
