MASKulinity Podcast

This week, Remoy and Samantha debrief the election. After having hope following the PEW findings from the last episode, they try to understand how the election turned out the way it did.

• The obvious has to be put out there: Kamala Harris’s loss has strong racist and sexist undertones.
• Given most Trump voters cited the economy as the reason why, Samantha talks through Joe Biden’s approach as well.
• Many factors contributed to the state of the economy, including—ahem—COVID, the effects of which we’re still feeling now.
  • What’s going on with inflation? Samantha gives us high-level notes on COVID-19 led to the worst inflation we’ve seen.
• Trump voters may not have known all this, because news sources have changed substantially in recent years.
  • Remoy takes us through the new news landscape.
  • YouTube and Facebook are heavy on Americans’ news rotation, many more Americans than you might think get their news from these sources.
  • Not to mention the manosphere speaking directly to men as guests like Donald Trump give them clout while connecting to their fanbase.
• How can so many Americans fall for these things? Education has been meddled with in so many states.
  • Samantha gives a crash course on the billionaire Koch brothers and their education goals.
  • She delves into the allies that have helped them get there and how they use government and money to undermine public education.
  • Did you know they are longtime associates of Betsy DeVos and her family? Samantha gets into their collaboration instituting the voucher system in states around the country.
  • The Koch have a particular vision for the world they want to see and meddling with American education is their pathway.
  • Trump has now started naming his cabinet, and back in 2016, many of his potential cabinet picks were from the Kochs’ network of donors.
• Remoy reminds us how men’s education has plateaued in the US, and how this helps disinform them.
  • The notion of school choice has been a conservative strategy to destabilize public education, reallocating funds to give parents accounts.
  • They end on a note of hope.
• Join Samantha and Remoy at the Next Gen Men Pathways event. They’ll be answering questions about MASKulinity and the election for Next Gen Men’s new initiative and reflecting on what’s to come. Sign up for FREE, and join them on November 21!

Thanks for listening!

Referenced on this episode:

• Pew Research Center ‘s study on Americans’ news sources
• MANY young people are getting their news from TikTok
• How Democrats are falling short on connecting with men
• Our podbro’s thoughts on Democrats connecting with men
• How the manosphere won the election
   

COMPANION PIECES:

• How American Politics REALLY Sees Men & MASKulinity
• Radicalization and TSwift
• Make America Great Again, How the dominant was left behind with Dr. Michael Kimmel
• Inside the new strain of conservatives, not MAGA or Qanon
• Gaslit Nation’s Reading Guide to stay informed

As the 2024 election heats up, it’s easy to assume that hyper-masculine, even toxic masculinity, messaging is resonating across America. But a new Pew Research report tells a different story. After digging in with report creator Juliana Horowitz and Next Gen Men’s Trevor Mayoh, Samantha uncovers some surprising truths.
 

Here’s where Samantha reveals the real story behind Americans’ views on masculinity. Remoy was surprised, to say the least…

• First Juliana opens up to how the “How Americans See Men and Masculinity” report came out of a more general curiosity, but as the election shifted into a more gendered race, the importance of the research became increasingly clear.
• Using the report as a jump off, Samantha runs a few questions by Remoy:
  • First: Samantha asked Remoy what he thought when he heard of the association between the American public and the terms: caring, open about their emotions, soft-spoken, or affectionate?
  • Second: She asked him how Americans felt about men pursuing non “traditional” norms: staying home to raise the kids, women paying for the date, men taking a woman’s last name in marriage?
  • Third: How do Americans feel about actions that depict Toxic Masculinity?
  • Fourth: Do Americans feel like there’s a backlash against men who are manly or masculine?
  • The answers? They’re not so cut and dry as you may think with a lot more parity across the aisle. Why?
    • Juliana suggests that generally speaking there’s much more nuance to Americans’ beliefs and thinking. Especially in contrast to the loud political noise we constantly see and hear.
    • Trevor makes a point that it’s the sport of American politics, the tribalism of how it’s waged, that unfortunately may disregard a lot of that nuance.
      • Trevor shares what he’s experienced with men in his work as a diversity, inclusion and violence prevention consultant. How he encounters a lot of men who are hurting in a variety of ways: work anxieties, stress, expectations to meet the highest standards of what it means to be husband or father. And in the midst of all that, how the larger culture hasn’t given men the tools to ask for help to process all these intense expectations.
      • Then he goes on to unpack how that can be exacerbated in highly masculine spaces– how men could actually possess a lot of that nuance Juliana shared in her report –but there’s a pack mentality in those intense social environments that doesn't allow men to easily share their discouragements.
• Remoy wonders if all of this is what can create a culture of “Aggrieved Entitlement.”
  • Does Remoy know what that really is? Nope. Luckily Samantha helps guide the way, defining what that experience is along with how mens’ perceptions of women’s ascent plays a role in building that entitled foundation.
  • Juliana brings some light to it all by giving a better view of what Americans perceive of the progress women have made in the last 20 years and how that may be affecting the aforementioned entitlement.
  • Trevor reveals how that entitlement, yes, has become a tool for American players like Trump, but is also a larger global culture. How it’s more of a larger populist appeal that exploits men's insecurities amidst deeply entrenched gender norms.
• Trevor leaves Samantha and Remoy with one last take away about how maybe the greatest misunderstanding of all these political games, is that if anything, it may provide community, friendship, or just a person to share a laugh with. A rare commodity for men especially as they age.
  • Samantha and Remoy really take this information in to gather a better understanding of how vulnerable men may be and how if this is the most vulnerable area for predation, how sad the American political environment may be.
• Samantha then breaks off on her own to ask Juliana more questions about the importance of the “How Americans See Men and Masculinity” report. Along the way pursuing a deeper understanding with Trevor at how to better wade through all these layers of these findings amidst the visible political situation in America.
• Finally, Samantha and Remoy discuss how to hold all this nuance alongside knowing we’re in a fractured American political system; especially when facing the obligation to participate when the cracks are so apparent. Together they land on multiple ideas that empower each other to have faith and still fight back as part of their own civic duty.
  
   

Referenced on this episode:

• Want to dive into the actual report from the Pew Research Center? Read “How Americans See Men and Masculinity” in all its surprising, well dissected glory.
• Who’s Trevor Mayoh? Learn more about his role as an Equity Leader with Next Gen Men.
• Okay but really… What is “Aggrieved Entitlement”? The Conversation shows a recent example of what that looks like in Canada.
• Who’s Samantha’s favorite Boston Celtic, Jaylen Brown? And why? Read more about how he came to open up about his mental health challenges as a male pro-athlete, especially overcoming an upbringing surrounded by what he calls “over-masculinity”.
• Justin Baldoni makes it his mission to model a public, vulnerable, honest conversation of what patriarchy really does to men.

Companion pieces:

• It's Time to Loosen the Grip on Reproductive Freedom with Heidi Sieck
• Make America Great Again, How the dominant was left behind with Dr. Michael Kimmel

This week, we’re joined by multihyphenate artist Stephanie Graham to delve into Pick Me culture. Remoy has no idea what that means, so Samantha walks him through what Pick Me culture is, the nuances in the ways women interact with each other when talking about relationships with men, and what that means for MASKulinity.

• Have you ever done anything out of character to be picked or chosen? This question is at the crux of this episode, and Remoy shares his own personal experience, which mostly includes success without shame.
  • Along the way, Samantha breaks down what a simp is, which according to Urban Dictionary, is the male version of being a Pick Me. 
  • The crew walks through how each term started out as a way to call folks out for bending their self-respect for desired love interests who don’t care for them but evolved into insults toward people doing anything nice or pleasing to the object of their affection.
  • Samantha traces back the origins of “woman who’s not like other women” to the “cool girl,” a compliment given to women who never required too much from their man and just went with the flow, drank beer, watched sports, while being hot and keeping a size 2.
    • Remoy gives all the reasons why his partner is a cool girl, and they’re just because she’s a cool person who does cool stuff. But the “cool girl” is a trope of a woman suppressing parts of herself so that she can appeal to a man by not taking up too much space. 
    • Remoy gives a great example from popular culture.
  • Samantha shared her own “cool girl” attempt as a 12-year-old girl trying to impress a boy.
    • Stephanie vulnerably shares seeking sneaker-swag validation from men, albeit platonically.
    • Is Samantha’s story an example of Pick Me behavior - What do you think?
  • At the crux of the Pick Me is her superiority to other women for her ability to be appealing to men, whereas the cool girl suppresses her needs and aligns her interests with her man for appeal. They overlap.
    • Samantha provides examples and Remoy picks up on the suggested requirement to be demure to be a real woman, and Stephanie picks up on the chastisement of women who aren’t putting domesticity at the top of their priority list.
• They get into Stephanie’s work exploring gender through art. 
  • Stephanie shares her experience photographing men for her Love You Bro series, celebrating friendships between Black men. The responses to her project had her questioning whether she was a Pick Me.
  • Remoy makes an important point about how patriarchy drives up these insecurities and conflicts among women.
• Samantha points out the rewards that women get when participating in Pick Me/Cool Girl culture.
  • Men enjoy being appealed to, and men’s interests being viewed as superior to women’s automatically legitimizes Cool Girls.
• It gets complicated. Folks calling out Pick Me behavior may just be performing a different type of sexism. Calling out women for their behavior and what they prefer is sometimes also folded into the Pick Me trope, when it’s really sexism.
  • Samantha calls out that the onus of dismantling patriarchy falls on men. Remoy and Stephanie cosign.
  • Remoy makes an important statement about how men can step in and stand for what’s right.
  • Stephanie shares small ways that men can intervene using their values rather than telling women what to do.

In our Five Questions segment, Stephanie shares what Pick Me culture can look like in her art and in real life.

• Stephanie illustrates the ways that Pick Me culture is rewarded in our culture.
  • Girls get the prize: the guy.
  • Women compete and win the prize, but it can backfire when they want to put their own needs first later in the relationship.
  • They get into the trad wife trend. Is this another example of Pick Me culture. Sort of. The trad wife trend has been blazing online but it’s a performance of gender. Women peddling the trad wife are businesswomen selling a lifestyle that they’re not actually living for profit.
• Stephanie lets us in on her project #NEWGLOBALMATRIARCHY. The performance and installation project explores friendships between women through the lens of goddesses. 
  • Why is there a supposed hierarchy between women in their friendships? There isn’t and this project explores that. It contradicts the trope of Pick Me culture pitting women against each other for an ultimate prize.
• Stephanie’s photography project Love You Bro explores male friendships. The closeness between men is seldom expressed, instead painting a picture of men as inherently violent.
  • She gets into the discomfort folks have seeing men being affectionate with one another.
  • Samantha wonders what the reception was from both the participants and the audience.
    • Stephanie shares the concerns men had doing the project, and the eventual glee and satisfaction of the participants.
• The hot seat is flipped this week! Remoy answers Stephanie’s question to the host. What was the turning point for Remoy that got him to question patriarchy?
  • Remoy shares his upbringing seeing women’s leadership. 
  • He witnessed abuse growing up, which led to insensitivity toward women on his part.
  • Remoy’s turning point shows that it’s possible for men to transform and be more thoughtful about patriarchy and its harms.

Referenced on this episode:

• Gone Girl: book monologue and movie monologue
• Examples of Pick Me culture
• Love You Bro
• #NEWGLOBALMATRIARCHY

COMPANION PIECES:

• The Marriage Episode 👰🏿‍♀️💒💍, with Dr. LaToya Council
• The Matriarchy Episode, with Izzy Chan
• Radicalization and TSwift, with Jeff Perera and Jonathon Reed

This week, we’re having a herstory moment! Professor and Chair of the Africana Studies Department at Wellesley College Dr. Kellie Carter Jackson joins the show this week to talk Black abolitionists and resistance. We get to know civil rights leader Mabel Williams, spouse and partner of Robert F. Williams, and how she and her husband mobilized Black folks to take up arms and defend themselves in the face of extreme racism in the sixties. 

• We start off with a moment for the cover of Professor Carter Jackson’s latest book We Refuse. It features Soldier of Love, not Sade’s chart topper, but the beautiful and poignant painting by Brooklyn-based artist Taha Clayton.
• Disclaimer: While we’re happy that gun violence has overall decreased in the United States, it continues to be troubling. We’re conscious of how intense gun debates can get and want to stress that this conversation explores how communities took up arms in self-defense against lethal racism. We are not advocating for general gun violence.
• Remoy introduces Mabel and Robert Williams via their infamous black and white Bonnie and Clyde photo.
• The Kissing Case in Monroe, NC is a turning point for the Williamses.
• Mabel knew how the presence of guns was enough to deter potential violence. And she was right. Violence severely deescalated.
• Carter Jackson stresses the importance of Mabel and Robert’s partnership because Robert tends to get all the credit for these efforts.
• Racism is not the only thing folks were fighting. Violent sexism must also be challenged and that calls for women’s leadership.

In our Five Questions segment, Professor Kellie Carter Jackson distills women’s anger and how they can use it as a driving force. 

• Our guest shares how anger is a big driving force for a lot of her work.
• Carter Jackson breaks down how she arrived at the title of her forthcoming book, We Refuse.
• bell hooks has a famous quote about Black men and white women being one stage away from the ultimate social power: white men’s power.
• We close out with a great note on how to get to liberation. Dr. Carter Jackson stresses how binaries and individualism pigeon-hole us away from collective freedom. She envisions how to move past that.

Thanks for listening!

Referenced on this episode:

• Audre Lorde's speech about women's anger being useful
• bell hooks’s quote about Black men and white women each being one degree away from the highest rank of social power from her book Feminist Theory: From Margin to Center
• Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a pacifist in the street but a gun owner behind closed doors.
• Dr. Carter Jackson’s books, We Refuse and the award-winning Force and Freedom: Black Abolitionists and the Politics of Violence cover a wide history of Black resistance and women’s roles
• F*** Your Slave Laws - RGP1-produced Not Past It episode featuring Dr. Carter Jackson

COMPANION PIECES:

• The Marriage Episode 👰🏿‍♀️💒💍, with Dr. LaToya Council 

It’s been a great summer! But now it’s fall and your tween and teen sons, nephews, brothers, and cousins are back in school. Teen anxiety is on the rise with pre-teen boys feeling that stress. But there is recourse! Multihyphenate mental health advocate Kyle Mitchell joins us this week and shares his wisdom and experience with helping teenagers manage social anxiety. 

• Remoy shares his experience with tween social anxiety after changing schools
  •  Kyle had a very similar experience and reflects back on dealing with anxiety as a tween. 
  • Turns out this experience is common among teen boys. They wanted to but had a hard time making friends and spent their time trying to avoid being noticed and judged.
• Remoy puts on his science teacher cap and lets us in on where this anxiety comes from.
  • He walks us through the brain functions and glands that cause our physical and mental development.
    • Our bodies develop faster than our mind, and we have to play catch-up to manage it all… How does that impact boys trying to survive new social situations?
    • The prefrontal cortex is responsible for a lot of our mental processes, and yet, most of us know so little about it. 
  • Even if their body is physically mature, hormonal teenagers will not have a fully developed brain for another ten years. It all seems so unfair…
    • Hormones help us manage stress but are also responsible for puberty, a highly stressful time in our lives.
    • Kyle reminds us that anxiety is useful! The goal isn’t to get rid of it but to manage it.
• Teenagers develop strategies for survival in social situations that could make them feel alone.
  • Kyle shares some truths and tips about how to manage that, particularly for boys, who by that time, have already learned to repress emotional expression.
    • He stresses the importance of boys developing a friend group that they can confide in and be vulnerable with.
    • Dealing with self-esteem and confidence issues is universal even if it doesn’t feel like it and knowing that can help boys overcome the fear of sharing themselves more openly.
    • How to teach boys to be vulnerable? Kyle reframes what strength actually can look like: sharing is more than caring; it’s actually a show of strength.

How have you dealt with social anxiety over the years? What would you tell your teenage self about dealing with self-doubt and lack of confidence? We’ll say it again: sharing is caring! Share your stories and takeaways and we’ll share them with our online community!

• In our deep dive, Kyle shares his own story dealing with anxiety and how this led him to the work he does helping teens and tweens deal with theirs.
• He walks us through the strategies he used to help him manage anxiety as a young man. 
  • Self-love was the missing piece for Kyle and is for a lot of boys. He shares his feelings of self-hate and what led him to a turning point.
  • Kyle is a father now and sees how his own kids deal with self-love and acceptance.
• Kyle shares his three-step process for dealing with social anxiety (37:39)
  • Exposure therapy opened a whole new world for Kyle and got him thirsting for stretching his comfort zone.
  • Rewards systems are hugely helpful. Boys
• While self-love is the name of the game, that term can be a turnoff to boys because it’s associated with femininity.
  • Kyle exposes how using the right language to draw boys into their healing. 
• What was the turning point for Kyle, where he realized that anxiety wasn’t running his life anymore?
• Kyle shares how working uncomfortability into his life and his family’s life has changed everything. 
  • He loves looking back on his journey going from being an anxious kid to being a public speaker helping kids with anxiety. 
  • Kyle shares why his work is so important and the gratification seeing people move past their fears brings him.
• Kyle plans to visit schools with The DUDE Project this fall to help more kids deal with anxiety. Samantha had a moment of gratitude.
• Like we said above, teen anxiety is on the rise in the US. Please share this conversation with anyone who might benefit from it and check out mental health resources on our website. 

Thanks for listening!

This week, we’re talking about marriage! Sociology Professor LaToya Council joins the pod this week to help us navigate Black couple’s marital waters.. and Samantha hangs in there as Remoy walks us through the complicated history of wedding traditions before her upcoming I Dos.

• Remoy takes us back to the first wedding ever, which took place in China. Find out what a man had to do to win the hand of the king’s daughter.
• At this wedding, the bride didn’t wear white. Remoy puts us on game about the painting that started it all. LaToya and Samantha react to the infamous painting of women being auctioned off at a marriage market. 😬
  • Edwin Long’s choice to paint the brides’ dresses white was his own and didn’t reflect the era he lived in. Remoy questions which women were considered pure and LaToya explains how the purity conversation excluding Black women impacts Black marriages…
  • Remoy puts the history of marriage in context socially. Marriage was thought of as a wealthy-white-man activity – they were the only ones who could afford it! Black marriage in the US did evolve from those traditions with the extra weight of racism flaring up in relationships.
    • LaToya gives us a rundown of what Black women experience in public as a result.
• The impact of racism on Black marriages is very real.
  • LaToya shares some of her findings interviewing Black couples in her research.
    • Black men also rely on their partner emotionally dealing with racism in their public life. Home is an important structure for maintaining themselves in a racist society.
    • Social networks and community are critical beacons of support for Black couples navigating racism.
    • LaToya also makes a nod to the economic benefits of marriage for Black not just practically, but socially.
• In our Five Questions segment, Samantha wants some answers on marriage and LaToya delivers.
  • LaToya’s paper reports back on her conversations with 20 Black men about egalitarianism and marriage and she and Samantha get into it all.
    • Black marriages are more egalitarian than ever before, and many Black men resist white supremacy and its gendered capitalism by seeking a partner with equal or higher income. But it seems egalitarian spirit stops at income. Why?
    • What is this notion of “moral backbone” LaToya writes about? It does include emotional support, but somehow is still patriarchal. Our guest asserts that Black men’s notion of masculinity is entrenched in protectorship and providership and spells out what it can look like. Solutionism, anyone?
  • What would it look like for Black men to embrace egalitarianism practically and emotionally?
    • Black men retaining that protectionist MASK is helpful in dealing with a racist society, but how to shed that at home? LaToya argues that Black men are uniquely positioned to embrace egalitarianism, but power, and specifically, gender power plays a huge part in why egalitarianism has only reached so far in Black marriages.
    • What could it look like for Black men to fully embrace egalitarianism while still feeling valued? LaToya gives her recommendations on how to get there.

Let us know what you thought of this episode! 

We’re taking a break in August! So you’ll have time to catch up on and relisten to all MASKulinity episodes. We’ll be back in mid-September to continue unmasking masculinity, but in the meantime, make sure to sign up for our biweekly newsletter to continue getting those MASKulinity updates and recaps. Have a great month!

Referenced in this episode:

• Black Marriage Through the Prism of Gender, Race, and Class by Kecia Johnson
• The Fresh Prince and 📺 Episode with Soraya Giaccardi

COMPANION PIECES:

• The Racial Hierarchy of MASKulinity, with Dr. Liu - Part 2 ENCORE
• The Racial Hierarchy of MASKulinity, with Dr. Liu - Part 1 ENCORE
• Let’s Talk MASKulinity, Bruh with Jeremy Herte
• Men as Victims of Violent Crime with Yuval Moses

This week, we’re joined by media scholar and psychologist Soraya Giaccardi. She shares her work analyzing gender depictions in TV and helps Remoy and Samantha psychoanalyze their relationship to a TV classic and one of their faves, “The Fresh Prince of Bel Air.”

• But first, Remoy walks us through some surprising facts about  boys’ TV shows. 
  • Who are the leading characters in boys’ TV shows? Remoy shares some stats from Soraya’s seminal report (check it out; it’s linked below) about how genders are represented in leading roles. 
    • Turns out that there is surprising parity among the binary genders in leading character representation.
    • Girls being in leading roles is not as big a deterrent in boys’ TV shows as we might collectively think… More on that later.
  • Women and girls are way more represented than they used to be, but how much are current gender depictions on boys’ TV shows challenging MASKulinity? The hosts discuss, with some valuable insights from our media scholar guest. 
  • LGBTQIA+ characters are still seldom the leading roles in boys’ TV. Soraya hypothesizes why that might be… 
  • One factor that remains consistent is that boys remain perpetrators of violence on screen… and the victims of it. There’s still so much work to do when it comes to men’s and boys’ representations on screen. 
    • While boys are disproportionately harmed on screen, we don’t always see them processing that violence emotionally…
  • Remoy draws key points from Soraya’s report on how these depictions, or lack thereof, impact us boys in their real life.
    • How exactly are boys’ relationships with their close ones depicted on the small screen compared to their fellow femme characters? This all informs how they interpret gender.
    • Soraya stresses the importance of deconstructing these stereotypes as boys intake them during formative years.
  • Despite making so much headway in balancing the binary genders, boys continue to primarily show just one emotion on screen… You guessed it: anger.
• We watch TV a lot more than we used to as a society. It’s available virtually at any time, on any nearby screen.
  • How has that impacted the way we process TV shows? Soraya breaks down the connections between our viewership and our socialization in romantic and platonic relationships.
• Remoy and Samantha take a walk down memory lane, reflecting on one of their favorite TV shows, The Fresh Prince of Bel Air. 
  • Samantha shares how the show shaped her views of femininity and romantic relationships. Sue the woo! Track.
  • Remoy looks back on a pivotal scene between Uncle Phil and Will. You’ll recognize it when you hear it.
    • Soraya’s analysis highlights a critical knowledge on what supportive parenting can look like for boys as modeled by this touching scene.
• What show shaped your views of gender and romantic relationships? Let us know in the comments!
• In our Five Questions segment, the hosts go expectedly deeper.
  • What does TV’s impact look like in our lives?
    • How does it manifest and what can we do about it? Soraya drops some key research findings about the way we relate to characters on screen. 
  • TV depictions aren’t just impacting us unwittingly; characters and storylines on the small screen also allow us to access liberation in some ways… 
    • Soraya shares her own experience with TV as a youngster and how it can bridge us to worlds unknown, which for many of us, can be a connection to communities we long for. 
  • The surprising stats about women being more present on TV bring up an interesting point: if girls are just as likely to draw a boys’ audience, why do we think that otherwise? 
    • Soraya cautions us about our own perceptions and how knowing the facts can shatter them. 
    • She stresses how controlling the narrative keeps us in the patriarchal loop of our own perceptions. Statistical facts humble us with the truth and can boys, men, masc folks, and all of us, really, closer to the truth.
• Soraya shares about this dream job marrying psychology and communications. We’re glad she chose this route!

Referenced in this episode:

• ENCORE: It *Was* Time to Loosen the Grip on Reproductive Freedom - Heidi Sieck schooled us on how controlling narratives led to the reversal of Roe vs. Wade.
• .MASKulinity is making some people a lot of money - we talked about how women-led movies are of much better quality and get much better ratings than they get credit for…
• “If He Can See It, Will He Be It? Representations of Masculinity in Boys’ Television”, the report Soraya wrote at the Geena Davis Institute in partnership with Equimundo and the Kering Foundation
• Cultivation theory - read about TV impacts us over time
• Media Use and Men’s Risk Behaviors: Examining the Role of Masculinity Ideology - cowritten by our illustrious scholar guest, Soraya Giaccardi

COMPANION PIECES:

• Trivia Night! Movie Time? Romance and Loneliness Edition - we talked about depictions of thoughtful fatherhood on screen
• Radicalization and TSwift - we talked with Jeff Perera about how men relate to women’s jokes
• Romance MASKulinity: Getting the Girl… - we talked with Imran Siddiquee about what romance in movies teaches men and boys about masculinity

It’s the Fourth of July in the US, and we’re thinking about the military. Today and on Veterans’ Day, we’ll say “Thank you for your service,” but do we really know all that goes into that service and how it impacts the people that serve? This week, we’re joined by military masculinity expert Dr. Ray Hinojosa from the University of Central Florida to uncover how gender informs how people are recruited into the military, why people choose to serve, and how it’s changed over time.

• Remoy starts out with a confession… Was it as unexpected for you as it was for Samantha? Who knew he had THIS facet…
• How would you describe someone in the military? Remoy poses this question and leads us into the seldom-talked-about ways that folks used to  recruit soldiers into service back in the day.
  • In the days of Napoleon, his rival, the Duke of Wellington, had choice words about his own soldiers, and Dr. Hinojosa shares context that gives us insight into the predatory recruiting strategies of that time and why those methods were used.
    • (Despite Samantha’s excitement about beurre blanc and butter in general, we do realize that Napoleon lost to the Duke of Wellington 😅)
• Dr. Ray Hinojosa puts us on game about the different reasons people suit up and serve.
  • While duty and altruism are very likely reasons for people to join the military, the economic draft stands out as an opportunity to draw folks into military service.
  • Recruiters play on traditional notions of masculinity like protection and duty to draw folks in, which may be predatory in its own way…
• Remoy walks us through some more military history, this time in Samantha’s birthland, with D-Day.
  • Recruiting practices had somewhat shifted then, and men that had barely made it into adulthood ended up making up the majority of the armed forces.
• Dr. Hinojosa gets candid about the other reasons people join the military. Perception is everything.
  • Marketing has played a huge part in military recruiting, with video-game-like ads and messaging  playing to manhood.
  • Our guest breaks down how the realities of military service are stripped from recruitment messaging
• Remoy shares his own proxy experiences with the military. An acquaintance returns after their first year and he reflects on the person they became, impacting his own perspective about what he thought about service.
• In our deep dive, Dr. Hinojosa shares how we can support servicemen after their time in the military.
  • “First and foremost, we have to remember that men are human beings, and they’re human beings with a full range of emotional expression. Even if they don’t always know how to express it well, those feelings are still there, right? Anger, fear, shame, concern, anxiety and all of the things that come with having big emotions.”
  • Remembering that everyone experiences deployment differently is key. It’s Important to hear folks for their own experience—sage advice for all walks of life.
  • Having a trauma-informed perspective helps to dispel barriers to understanding especially since many young men have a hard time sharing details of their time in the service with folks who have not experienced it themselves.
• Why do some men not know they need care? Our literati host ponders and our expert weighs in.
  • MASKulinity, essentially. And Dr. Hinojosa breaks down exactly what that looks like.
  • Social connection has been proven to help people live longer, but experiences in the military can lead to loneliness, so what do we do? Hear what Dr. Hinojosa advises.
• This theory of “self as object,” what does it mean exactly? Dr. Hinojosa breaks down this concept first presented in his dissertation about how we use our bodies as an object to project the type of person we want to be perceived as. The military is no exception.
• Despite its many questionable aspects and tactics, the military has given us many benefits that we don’t always think about. Listen to find out what everyday items we have the military to thank for, for example, washing machines!
  • But also, it provides a certain status in society that people respect and have more empathy for…
• We finish this episode with Dr. Hinojosa providing tips for supporting veterans through their trauma. It’s a good one.
• Are you a service member? Did we miss anything? Let us know!

Referenced in this episode:

• Dr. Ray Hinojosa’s dissertation “Recruiting' the Self The Military and the Making of Masculinities”
• MCU and the military have a relationship
• The ad Remoy shared with Dr. Hinojosa and Samantha

COMPANION PIECES:

• Ignoring it won’t make it go away! How doing the work leads to men’s freedom, with resident therapist Justin Lioi
• Men as Victims of Violent Crime, with Yuval Moses, a therapist from the Crime Victims Treatment Center
• The Army is having trouble recruiting men

We’re going back in time! Remoy shows his energetic facets as we dive into a past episode throwback on Transitioning into Immigrant MASKulinity with multihyphenate artist, D'Lo.

• Samantha and Remoy play back clips from this insightful 2018 episode. They remember their old selves trying to make sense of this conversation just a year into the show and compare it to now, as their older (hopefully wiser!) selves.
  • The hosts share what it meant to have D’Lo stop on the pod as immigrant folks themselves.
• D’Lo shared his experience growing up and questioning his gender identity in a Sri Lankan family, living in one of the most racist counties in California as the setting. 
  • While his family was accepting of his looking like a little boy and having nothing but boys as friends, he had to take on the MASK of girlhood in his larger community.
  • He describes the first transition he made to fit into society’s expectations, and it may not be what you think.
• Remoy and Samantha reflect on their own immigrant-kid experiences and how that impacted their understanding of gender.
  • Samantha shares her gratitude for folks like D’Lo who made sure their voices were heard and created a more nuanced picture of what gender could be in immigrant communities.
• D’Lo challenged the notion that traits must be associated with either femininity or masculinity exclusively. He never felt that way himself and most people don’t actually live that way either.
  • Samantha looks back on what she’s learned about the gender spectrum over the years
• What informed D’Lo’s notions of gender growing up? He opens up about
  • Remoy shares his own experiences with MASKulinity as a young South Asian man growing up in a mostly white community. 
  • He expresses his gratitude for the multitude of perspectives out there now that have expanded our understanding of gender, in particular for people of color, more specifically for that immigrant family fighting for the “American Dream”
• D’Lo reflects on his new understanding of strength. His perceptions of his parents drastically shifted once his understanding of gendered pressures grew and he started challenging them himself.
  • Remoy shares how empowering it is to hear this shift in perspective.
  • Samantha shares her discovery of anger and how that escaped her as a woman in 2018.
• D’Lo has embraced all his multitudes and shares how being an artist allowed him to express them all.
  • Remoy as a multihyphenate himself embraced his own wholeness rather than falling to the pressures of achievement.
  • Shout-out to the folks out there fighting to make POC trans voices heard!

Let us know how your own views about gender have changed over the years!!

Referenced in this episode:

• D’Lo on how he came out three times
• More about D’Lo
• Not Past It - Remoy’s history-focused podcast

COMPANION PIECES:

• Transitioning into Immigrant MASKulinity
• Relationships: Behind the MASK of Stoicism
• The Racial Hierarchy of MASKulinity, with Dr. Liu - Part 1 ENCORE
• My Body, My Transition, My Identity — How A Colombian Trans Activist

Calling all wrestling fans! This week, we are joined by playwright, Chicano history and theater professor, and self-professed smark Beto O’Byrne to talk MASKulinity in wrestling. Not your Olympics wrestling—it’s WWE, baby!

• Is wrestling fake? How dare you ask that?! Beto sets the record straight.
  • Wrestling is simultaneously sport and theater. This scripted performance produces an over-the-top MASKulinity for its audience of mostly men to thoroughly enjoy. What are the implications for MASKulinity? We discuss.
  • Beto walks us through what that has looked like in the ring over time.
• Beto and Remoy share their mutual love of wrestling as youngsters and nerd out on their favorite moves.
  • Moonsault anyone? What’s a hangman? Get your Google out—lots of terms in this one.
• Beto walks us through wrestling history and its connections to theater performances.
  • Many sports often have that flavor of homoerotism in many ways, and wrestling is no different.
  • How did wrestling evolve from its carnival roots to the WWE we know and love?
  • Wrestlers meld their in-ring persona with their real-world persona.
    • Colorful characters Stone Cold Steve Austins and The Rocks bled into American pop culture with their larger-than-life personas informing MASKulinity in their own ways.
• Listen for the best quote on professional wrestling you’ve ever heard in your life from Vince McMahon’s unauthorized biography.
• Beto highlights the different “characters” in wrestling storytelling:
  • You’ve got your heel, your monster heel, your babyface—all different facets of MASKulinity in the ring.
    • We’ve gotta know! Which archetype do you love?
    • Samantha gets to guess who The Man is, and if your wrestling knowledge is as limited as hers, you may be surprised to find out who it is…
• Women wrestle too, but it wasn’t always that way…
  • Models used to be recruited to get in the ring?! How did we go from hyperfemininity in this MASKuline world to Chyna and Jade Cargill?
  • Beto gives us a portrait of the evolution of women wrestlers in the McMahon machine.
• In our UnMASKed Interview segment, we get a snapshot of luchador culture and performance and its impact on American wrestling.
• We reflect on the ways that wrestling lets men watch other men be close…something they’re way less allowed to do in real life.
  • Is it cathartic?
  • Beto reflects on his Southern culture around MASKulinity and the vicarious experience that the WWE offers.
• We go further in the theatricality of the WWE and what that looks like when performing for tens of thousands of people.

Referenced in this episode:

• Beto O’Byrne guest references Ringmaster: Vince McMahon and the Unmaking of America by Abraham Josephine Reisman
• Masculinity, explained by WWE
• Samantha reacted to this video
• For deeper dives on wrestling and its history, check out wrestling observer Dave Metzler or former wrestling manager turned podcaster Jim Cornette
• Samantha developed a new crush in this episode

COMPANION PIECES:

• When we talked with with Kirstin Cronn-Mills about women’s sports in Don't Let Them Play ⚽️⚾ Lest the MASK Fall Away
• Women’s impact in wresting
• The impact of lucha culture