This fall Matt Berninger from The National released a brilliant solo album called Serpentine so this week Mike celebrates the release of that album with a re-post of this special episode which featured Berninger along with his wife and frequent collaborator Carin Besser as well as Mike’s wife the poet J. Hope Stein. (Their book "The New One" is in stores.) This creative double date goes deep as the two couples open up about creative marriages, actual marriages, and how writing poetry can feel like knitting.