Messy Social Work

In this special 100th episode of The Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich Devine and Tim Fisher hit pause to reflect on the journey so far. Armed with a list of 100 AI-generated questions inspired by their previous episodes, they take each other on a whistle-stop tour through five years of conversations, debates, learning, and occasional technical disasters.

Together they explore what they've learned from speaking with academics, practitioners, people with lived experience, and thought leaders from across and beyond social work. They discuss the limits of concepts such as trauma-informed practice, the importance of professional curiosity, systemic thinking, humility, relationships, and the enduring complexity of child protection work.

Along the way, they revisit some of their most memorable guests, reflect on how the podcast has evolved, share what drives each other slightly mad, and wrestle with one of the biggest questions of all: what is social work actually for?

Part celebration, part stocktake, and part conversation between two friends who have spent 100 episodes thinking out loud together, this episode offers a candid glimpse behind the scenes of the podcast and the ideas that continue to shape it.

Thank you to everyone who has listened, contributed, challenged, shared, and joined us for the journey so far.

In this episode of This Is Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim are joined once again by care-experienced advocate, project worker and Churchill Fellow, Terri-Anne Hamer.

Terri-Anne shares insights from her Churchill Fellowship research exploring how we break intergenerational cycles of child removal. From Denmark to Jamaica, her travels challenged assumptions and revealed a surprisingly consistent message: while services matter, what often makes the greatest difference is belonging, community and meaningful relationships.

Together, they explore care experience, loneliness, identity, parenting, and the courage required to challenge patterns passed down through generations. Terri-Anne reflects on the role of her own "village" in helping her build a different future for her children, and makes a compelling case for support that extends beyond childhood and into adulthood.

Along the way, the conversation touches on relational leadership, the unseen work of relationships, internalised shame, and why breaking cycles is rarely something people achieve alone.

A thoughtful, moving and hopeful discussion about what becomes possible when we stop asking, "What's wrong with people?" and start asking, "Who stands alongside them?"

Topics discussed:

• Breaking intergenerational cycles of child removal
• Care experience and parenting
• The Churchill Fellowship journey
• Relational practice and relational activism
• Loneliness, belonging and community
• The importance of "the village"
• Supporting care-experienced adults
• Leadership, systems and creating the conditions for change

"If it takes a village to raise a child, why does the village disappear when that child becomes an adult?" - Terri-Anne Hamer

What difference can one consistent relationship make in a young person's life?

In this moving and deeply honest episode, Rich and Tim are joined by care leaver Shakira Peart and her Personal Advisor Sarah Fisher. Together, they reflect on a seven-year relationship that has endured through trauma, loss, domestic abuse, homelessness, mental health challenges, parenting struggles, and ultimately, remarkable personal growth.

Shakira speaks candidly about losing her mum at 14, living with undiagnosed autism, ADHD and bipolar disorder, surviving abusive relationships, and the painful experience of having her first two children removed from her care. She also shares how becoming a mother to her daughter Aurora, who has significant additional needs, has helped her make sense of her own experiences and find new strength and purpose.

At the heart of the conversation is Sarah's unwavering presence. This episode shines a light on the vital role Personal Advisors play in the lives of care-experienced young people: offering consistency, hope, practical support, and a relationship that doesn't disappear when life gets messy.

As Shakira prepares to graduate with a first-class Psychology degree, accompanied by the Personal Advisor she affectionately calls her "second mum", this is a powerful story about resilience, recovery, and the transformative impact of someone refusing to give up on you.

Content note: This episode contains discussions about bereavement, domestic abuse, mental health difficulties, self-harm, trauma, and child removal.

In this episode, Richard Devine sits down with family law barrister Gemma Chapman to explore the intersection between social work, family justice and advocacy.

Gemma shares her journey into family law, what she enjoys most about being a barrister, and some of the challenges that come with working in a complex and emotionally demanding field. Together, we discuss what makes an effective social worker, the qualities of a strong social work expert witness, and the common pitfalls practitioners can encounter when giving evidence in court.

The conversation also examines an important distinction often misunderstood in practice: the difference between disclosure and allegations, and why this matters for assessment, decision-making and safeguarding children.

We explore the role of legal representation within the family justice system, including how barristers advocate for clients while balancing professional duties and ethical responsibilities. Finally, Gemma reflects on the changes she would like to see in how services support children and families and offers valuable advice for social workers appearing in court.

A thought-provoking conversation for social workers, managers, legal professionals, students, and anyone interested in improving outcomes for children and families.

Key themes:

• Family justice and advocacy
• Giving evidence in court
• What makes an effective social worker
• Social Work Expert Witnesses (SWETs)
• Disclosure versus allegations
• Working alongside legal professionals
• Supporting children and families
• Learning from practice and experience

Guest: Gemma Chapman, Family Law Barrister

In the second part of their Family Group Decision Making (FGDM) series, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore themes six to ten, moving beyond process and practice into the relational, cultural and leadership dimensions of family-led decision-making. 

The conversation explores:

• The relational skills and mindsets that underpin effective FGDM, including invitational practice, holding space, emotional containment, cultural humility and creating environments where families experience dignity, belonging and psychological safety. 
• The power of networks and participation, examining how practitioners can move beyond a narrow definition of family to mobilise wider circles of support, including kinship networks, friends, neighbours, communities, fathers and lifelong connections.
• The role of stories, feedback and lived experience in helping us understand the impact of FGDM, and why stories often reveal aspects of change, identity and belonging that formal outcomes alone cannot capture.
• Theoretical perspectives that inform family-led practice, including restorative approaches, shame and repair, systems thinking, risk culture, relational activism and the challenge of balancing professional responsibility with trust in families and communities.
• Leadership, implementation and culture change, exploring how services can embed FGDM principles beyond individual meetings, create democratic and participatory spaces, involve people with lived experience, and build systems that place relationships, community and shared responsibility at the centre of practice. 

Throughout the episode, Rich and Tim reflect on power, participation, relational ethics, community leadership and what happens when professionals move from being experts and problem-solvers towards becoming facilitators of conversation, connection and collective action. 

Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, coordinator, manager, therapist, community organiser or leader, this episode offers practical ideas and thoughtful reflections on building more relational, democratic and human-centred ways of working with children, families and communities.

In this episode, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore the first five themes of Family Group Decision Making (FGDM), unpacking the philosophy, values and practice wisdom behind one of the most significant relational approaches in children's and family services today.

Together, they discuss the Māori origins of Family Group Conferencing in Aotearoa New Zealand and how FGDM has evolved into a strengths-based, family-led approach that places decision-making power closer to children, families and communities.

The conversation explores:

• The foundations of FGDM and the shift from doing things to or for families towards doing things with them. 
• How Family Group Decision Making can support people across the life course, from birth planning and early years support to adolescence, adulthood and later life. 
• The importance of the "window of intervention" and why timing matters when creating opportunities for families to lead their own planning and decision-making. 
• The art and craft of facilitation, including preparation, advocacy, private family time, powerful questioning and the role of the coordinator in creating the conditions for meaningful participation. 
• A continuum of conversational approaches, from formal Family Group Conferences through to mediation, family network meetings and other family-led spaces for dialogue, planning and repair. 

Throughout the episode, Richard and Tim reflect on participatory democracy, relational practice, family power, professional humility and what becomes possible when we trust families and communities to mobilise their own strengths, networks and solutions.

Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, manager, coordinator, therapist or community practitioner, this episode offers rich insights into how relational ways of working can create lasting change through conversation, connection and collective responsibility.

Flawless Consulting by Peter Block has sold more than a million copies and is widely regarded as one of the most influential books ever written about consulting. But what can a business classic teach social workers, practice leads, and change agents working in complex public services?

In this episode, Rich and Tim put Peter Block's ideas to the test through two live consulting dilemmas drawn from their own work. Rich explores the challenge of leading a systemic practice transformation from within an organisation, where success depends less on training and more on culture change, relationships, and influencing without authority. Tim brings the perspective of an external consultant, working with local authorities to embed Family Group Decision-Making and create lasting change beyond the life of a contract.

Together, they explore some of Peter's most enduring ideas: authentic contracting, resistance as valuable information, shared responsibility, and the difference between compliance and genuine commitment. Along the way, Peter challenges assumptions about expertise, accountability, and what it really takes to help organisations change.

Whether you're an internal practice lead, an external consultant, a social work manager, or anyone trying to influence change without formal authority, this conversation offers practical wisdom from a thinker whose work remains as relevant today as when Flawless Consulting was first published.

Topics include:

• Contracting for real accountability
• Leading change without direct authority
• Working with resistance rather than against it
• Internal versus external consulting
• Avoiding the "expert" trap
• Moving from compliance to commitment
• Embedding systemic practice and Family Group Decision-Making

A conversation about consulting, culture change, and why one of the world's best-selling consulting books still has so much to say about social work.

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/