Midlife Mixtape

“Weird, quirky circumstances”: Author and “10 Things to Tell You” podcaster Laura Tremaine on her new book that encourages readers to share more stories to deepen relationships, foster understanding, and connect us more closely, even during a pandemic.

Hear me out: this, but with an actual taxi

Laura Tremaine 00:00

No, all opportunities do not go away any second. You do not have to seize every moment. It’s gonna take a long time and you need to just settle in.

00:09

Welcome to Midlife Mixtape, The Podcast. I’m Nancy Davis Kho and we’re here to talk about the years between being hip and breaking one.

[THEME MUSIC – “Be Free” by M. The Heir Apparent]

Nancy Davis Kho 00:30

Hi, listeners. This is Nancy Davis Kho, host of the Midlife Mixtape Podcast, and author of The Thank-You Project: Cultivating Happiness One Letter of Gratitude at a Time. I’m also a frustrated fan of live music at a time when going to a concert could kill you. So since I can’t recommend any concerts to you, I thought I would at least start out today’s show with a music tip. Check out the brand-new album Strange Boy by Kate Davis. And before you ask, yes, indeed, this is nepotism play. Kate’s the daughter of my sweet cousin Jim. However, she also happens to be wildly talented, and this is a brand-new album and it’s so great. It’s a cover album of the late great Daniel Johnston’s project, Retired Boxer.

Kate has teamed up with Daniel’s charity, the  Hi, How Are You Project for the release, with a portion of the proceeds from sales and streaming going to the charity. As part of this partnership, Kate was part of the Hi, How Are You Mental Health Day Fundraiser and performed over live stream with Jeff Tweedy, Bully, Molly Burch, Lucius, Tunde Adebimpe of TV on the Radio, and a bunch of other folks.

If you’re thinking about Kate Davis music, you’re thinking about Sharon Van Etten, Phoebe Bridgers, Feist…if you like that music vibe, check out Strange Boy on Spotify, Bandcamp, Apple Music and other streaming services, or you could order some choice blue vinyl. Strange Boy, by Kate Davis – give yourself the gift of a midmonth music refresher!

[Music – I’ll Do Anything But BreakDance For Ya, Darling, from Strange Boy by Kate Davis].

Nancy 02:34

Hello and Happy New Year of the Ox. I feel like maybe we should have taken a beat last Chinese New Year when we welcomed in Year of the Rat. Did that not give us any kind of clue about what we were going to face in 2020?

This year, it’s the Year of the Ox, the Metal Ox to be exact. It’s not just an animal, there’s always an element to be associated with it. The energy around the Metal Ox years, from what this white girl who is married to a Chinese guy whose primary expression of pride in his ethnic heritage is the prodigious consumption of Chinese food understands, is that we’re basically in a holding pattern for the next 12 months. We’re supposed to just chill and not make major moves in the coming year, but rather preserve our energy and spirits. So I guess it’s time to RSVP no to all those many, many invitations I have to move from the living room couch to the front porch and back down to the TV room. I really have to rein in my social schedule.

In all seriousness, after so many months of being cooped up, I feel totally rusty when it comes to just being outside in the world. There’s stuff I used to do all the time, in fact complain about how much I had to do it, like driving, that I don’t feel like I’m very good at anymore. I mentioned over on the Midlife Mixtape FB page the other day that there was a moment earlier this month (Oh God, I hope my husband’s not listening) where I was driving along during errands and suddenly I was in the middle of an intersection and I was thinking, “Oh my God, was there a stoplight? Was there a stop sign that I ran? What do I do now?” Stuff that I used to just compute through muscle memory and brain memory I really have to think about deliberately.

So I asked on Facebook whether there were things that you’re worried you have gotten out of the habit of doing and here’s just a smattering: Jen said number one, accessorize, and number two, wear items other than Star Wars, Dave Matthews or San Jose State University merch. Related to this, Chris offered the following extremely relatable vignette. He had a friend going to a socially distance gathering in another friend’s backyard who asked the host, “Is this going to be hard pants or soft pants?” Hard pants, obviously khakis and jeans, something with a zipper; soft pants, yoga pants or sweats. Speaking as someone who now has “company sweats,” as in, these are the sweats I wear when company comes to sit on the front porch, I don’t even know what these hard pants are that you speak of.

Catriona said she was worried about being out of the habit of wearing makeup and that set off a chorus Amens; that, and wearing bras. I’m telling you. bra manufacturers of America, your days are numbered unless you come up with soft bras that have a snack pocket.

My friend Andrea hopes that she’ll one day remember again what the day and date are.

But the most common refrain that I heard from Midlife Mixtapers on the Facebook page was that they’re nervous about being around people again, a little bit nervous about that. Amber said, “I’ve gotten pretty rusty at holding actual conversations with people like in person,” and Tracy characterized it as, “How do I interact with others without a word vomit?”

Whether it’s because we were just out of topics – I mean, this week is the same as last week was the same as the week before that – or just out of practice, the idea of circulating around later this year and having a conversation with people outside of our pod can feel a little overwhelming. I thought it might be useful for all of us to get a reminder of – what’s the old saying? “Talk so that people will listen and listen, so people will talk.” That’s where today’s guest comes in.

Laura Tremaine is an avid reader, sporadic writer, and enthusiastic podcaster. She grew up in a small town in southern Oklahoma and moved to Los Angeles sight unseen when she was 22. Years of film and television production followed and in 2007, she married the director she met on her first movie set. For six years, Laura wrote regularly at Hollywood Housewife, a blog that opened doors of friendship and opportunity all over the world. Eventually, she closed that blog and moved toward podcasting as the regular co-host on a girlfriend chat show called Sorta Awesome and she’s the creator and host of the topic driven Smartest Person in the Room Podcast.

These days, you can find her every week on her podcast 10 Things To Tell You. Every episode provides a prompt for you to take to your journal or text to a best friend or use to start a deeper, more meaningful conversation.  Laura’s first book Share Your Stuff. I’ll Go First. 10 Questions to Take Your Friendship to the Next Level came out on February 2nd of this year. Laura Tremaine and I have more than 10 things to tell you so pull up a chair and listen.

[MUSIC]

Nancy 07:05

Hello, Laura Tremaine and welcome to the Midlife Mixtape Podcast!

Laura 07:08

Hello. Thank you so much for having me! I’m super excited to be here.

Nancy 07:13

I’m super excited too because I think your book is a really great guide for some conversations that can be enlightening and fun and different from everything else we’ve been talking about for the past pandemic year. But before we get to that, Laura, we have an important first question: what was your first concert and what were the circumstances?

Laura 07:33

Well, this is kind of funny because it’s a real throwback. But my first concert that I went to, actually yearly I went to this show, was Reba McEntire who is from Oklahoma. I’m from Oklahoma. I was growing up in Oklahoma. She did this annual fundraiser thing every Memorial Day and she put on the most insane Reba McEntire show every year and I started going as a kid. I went for years. She would change her outfits and of all these crazy sets and like, I have never seen a concert like that.

Nancy 08:15

Glama! Did everybody in Oklahoma go? Was it like a Dolly-Parton-in-Tennessee kind of a scenario?

Laura 08:21

Oklahoma puts out a lot of great country artists. But Reba is special. She has the hits and so it was huge. I mean, there were definitely thousands of people there, and it was a totally different experience, concert-wise, than I would have later in my life with small, really intimate, really special venues sort of in a different way.

But what I loved about going to those shows was she’s a real showman. Reba McEntire, she is a total showman. Like a taxi would drive onto the stage for “Fancy” and I mean, there was all these elements to it that I had not seen in big concerts like that. There wasn’t pyrotechnics, it wasn’t that situation, but a lot of set changes and outfit changes and big reveals.

I mean, it was really a big deal and I got to a stage, teenager life or a little bit older, where it was easy to poke fun of it, almost like it was cheesy in a way. But now, I look back and I’m like, “What? It was amazing.” I would go to that show again now.

Nancy 09:24

When you left Oklahoma, I know when you moved to Los Angeles. One of your employers was MTV, is that correct?

Laura 09:32

That is. It was my first employer actually and I did not a ton of music stuff. I did work on Snoop Dogg’s very short lived show called Doggy Fizzle Televizzle.

Nancy 09:48

Who can forget Doggy Fizzle Televizzle?

Laura 09:50

Right.

Nancy 09:50

I can’t wait until my transcriptionist tries to read that one.

Laura 09:55

Otherwise, I did not do much music work when I was working for music television.

Nancy 10:01

Did you ever have any chance encounters in the elevator, any dirt you can give us on behind-the-scenes MTV life?

Laura 10:08

Oh, it’s funny you asked that because I don’t even know if I’ve ever told this story.

But one time I was at the vending machine, trying to get myself some sort of a snacky snack, and someone came up behind me and he reached his arm around to press the button right around me, which is a close and personal gesture. Then he spoke and his voice was so familiar and I jumped and I turned around, and it was Ashton Kutcher. I guess he was doing Punk’d probably at that time in the same building and I was like, “Uh, okay. I’ll just take my Oreos and I go.”

Nancy 10:45

“Ashton, I didn’t want a Take 5 bar, stop pressing the buttons!”

Alright, we’re going to talk about you and your book, which is called Share Your Stuff. I’ll Go First. 10 Questions to Take Your Friendship to the Next Level and last week was your book birthday. Happy birthday!

Laura 11:01

Thank you very much. I’m super excited about it. My first book! I’ve wanted to do this forever.

Nancy 11:06

I wanted to have you on the show because my first episode of the year, we talked a lot about how to have conversations with people on the other side of the aisle from us politically, or who have different viewpoints from us, in a lot of different spheres. That was J. Christopher Collins and his book, Mending Our Union.

But I think, and I checked on the Midlife Mixtape Facebook community, I think we’re all out of the habit of a lot of things that seemed pretty easy to us a year ago. For sure, one of the topics that emerged is talking to other people. Because we’re inside, we’re with our pods, we’re not having that kind of day to day chitchat, even with good friends of ours, and then this book came across the transom.

First of all, it’s beautiful. I love the cover. It’s really lovely pink and jewel color tones. It’s a book about how to get better at how we talk to the people who we know and love, our dearest friends and I wanted to ask you, what was the concept behind the book? What made you think this is the book that I should write now?

Laura 12:10

Well, this definitely wasn’t ever the book I would have pictured myself writing.

But I started a mommy blog 11 years ago, out of complete loneliness, and I learned to share. It was the sharing piece that really changed my life, really pulled me out of a real dark night of the soul friendship wise… it was the sharing.  So as time went on, and I shared in other ways, social media came along, I started podcasting. I tried all these different ways of sharing, but I just kept getting feedback from people where it felt like there was a common thread of “Thank you for sharing this. I could NEVER share this.”

So I was like, why is that the response? Why can’t you share? I mean, outside of the obvious reasons that maybe people have a career that hinders them or something like that. But in general, why, the older we’re getting, the more we’re shutting down from sharing so freely the way we did when we were teenagers or young people? Because I was real-time experiencing how it was the sharing that was making my life so much better. So much better.

So I started another podcast. I’ve had a few but I started this most recent one called 10 Things To Tell You where that was the whole concept. Each episode had a question or a prompt or a topic that you’re supposed to purposely take then to be a conversation starter with a friend or partner, or even your journal, if it’s like too vulnerable to talk it through. But the real emphasis was the sharing piece. And I got a great response to it. I really enjoyed holding people’s hands, teaching them how to share, especially if they were nervous about it.

It just ended up coming out in book form, really naturally. Definitely not what I thought my first book would be. But I got to share these stories that I’ve held on to for a really long time because a lot of us do this, we hold on to our most tender stories. I also, along the way, got to encourage people in the sharing realm. Because even though social media makes it so easy for us to share more, in my world, (women of a certain age, if you will,) they’re more shut down from sharing than they’ve ever been. In their real life, online, any of it. So the book straddles both parts: talking about sharing in general, and me encouraging people to do that. Then also me getting to share some really important stories to me, some fun stories. That’s what the book does: Share your stuff, and I’ll go first.

Nancy 14:48

Right. So for each chapter, it is a question, and Laura talks about why that question is interesting or important. Ten she answers it and then invites you, with a few prompts, to respond to it yourself. It really is about you making yourself vulnerable so that it’s an invitation for other people to do that as well. Was that hard to do? Because some of the stories, they’re not the ones that come out when you’re talking to somebody for the first time you meet them. These are some pretty deep stories.

Laura 15:20

Well, I try to make a mix in the book of lighter stories and deeper stories. You’re not going to raise your hand at a dinner party and just be like, “I need to talk to you about my third grade trauma.” I mean, that would just be awkward.

Nancy 15:34

Oh, we’ve all sat next to that person at a dinner party. They’re out there.

Laura 15:37

Maybe I have been that person, to be honest.

But it wasn’t hard for me to tell these stories. I was actually relieved to tell some of the more sensitive stories in the book. Because as long as I’ve shared online, I haven’t talked through some of these things. I felt like I wasn’t going to throw them up on an Instagram caption. They deserved book treatment.

I also really wanted people to read some of my stories and understand that our older stories… we don’t have to get over them, or completely release them. Now, if that’s part of your healing, or that’s what you want to do, then have at it. I have those too.

But what I hate is that we get to a certain time in life where we get to a certain level of success or we have a beautiful family or whatever, and so then we are not supposed to talk anymore about times in our life that were hard, or loves in our life that were meaningful, even if they’re not our current love. All of these things, culturally, get conditioned out of us to talk about. But I think we still think about them and I definitely know that they’ve got us to where we are. They’re part of our bigger story. So when you are trying to present who you are now in relationship, or in whatever way, you can’t discount everything that came before. I think that we’re told that we’re supposed to, and I don’t want to. I want to share that stuff.

Nancy 17:04

There are so many ways in which your book and my book, The Thank-You Project: Cultivating Happiness One Letter of Gratitude at a Time, meet up and that’s one of them. Because I talk about, in my book, writing thank-you letters to people who have helped, shaped, and inspired you, whether or not they’re still in your life, whether or not you send those letters. Because we are shaped by difficult times as well as great times and we may have been profoundly changed by someone who we’re not in contact with anymore. Being able to look back with gratitude – not necessarily at how they taught you the lesson, but at the lesson itself –  is a really helpful way to get perspective and to regain power over your own story.

That’s one of the things that really appealed to me about this book – you’re encouraging people to think really deeply, and by doing that yourself, you are making it more comfortable for readers to do that. That’s always a gift from a writer. When you read something, whether it’s fiction or nonfiction, and you think, “That’s me. I feel understood, I feel seen. I don’t feel so alone because I know at least one other person out there shares that experience.” That can be a real gift from a book like this.

Laura 18:13

It’s so funny, because one of the things that I was a little bit worried about when I was writing the book in terms of trying to hold hands with the, “You share your stuff and now here’s mine,” is that my stories were so specific that I was worried that they wouldn’t do what I needed them to do. They wouldn’t be relatable.

I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma, I moved to Los Angeles, I married a movie director. I have weird, quirky circumstances. I’m completely aware of that. I have found it to be so funny that I’ve heard from people all week since the book has come out that they were like, “This is my exact story!” Okay, now I know it is not their story. You know what I mean?

Nancy 18:52

Not in the details, but in the big picture.

Laura 18:56

Yes! I’m so glad. Like, they took my “move to LA” story… Well, they moved to go to college, they moved to New York for a year, whatever they did that’s the equivalent in their life. I just love hearing that. Our specific stories, even if we think they are so specific and special to us – on the one hand, they are. But on the other hand, there’s some very obvious universal themes that a lot of us carry. And we don’t share them because we think, “oh, that’s my quirky little story.” But it’s so helpful to hear someone else tell a story and be like, “oh, I have a time when that happened to me, too. I thought I was the only one.”

Nancy 19:33

Right. it’s interesting because as I was going through each chapter, I was really thinking about close friends of mine for whom I have no idea what the answer is to that question. You had questions like, When did you belong? What broke you? What are your magical moments? I would not be able to tell you what the answer to that is for even my best friend. I just think it’s really interesting to think about deepening relationships by having these kinds of conversations.

You mentioned that women are – I don’t know, maybe men as well –  but you get to what I call “the years between being hip and breaking one,”  maybe you’re not so eager to share. Maybe you’re shutting down a little bit. Why do you think that is?

Laura 20:17

Well, I think there’s all kinds of reasons. I mean, we might have personal reasons that we don’t want to revisit difficult seasons. Or if we have come out kind of shiny on top, we don’t want to admit that we started out from a real gritty place. There’s a lot of things. But what I see the most of is women, particularly because that’s who I’m interacting with, they’ve been told some version of, “it’s disrespectful to your family to talk about old loves.” That’s just an example. Or, it’s disrespectful to your family of origin, your parents, to say that there were things that were hard about your childhood. Because it’s impossible for people to say, “I understand my parents were doing the best they could and also, this was really traumatic.” It’s really hard for people to hold all of these things in their hand at the same time.

So the women I know that are in my circle, who are in their 30s and 40s, oftentimes, they’re moms, oftentimes they’re entrenched in a career, where they feel like they have to let go of some of those stories. It makes them look very uncool or like, they haven’t gotten over it, if they’re still talking about their prom or something like that. We’ve been told that that is eyeroll worthy like, “That’s a person who won’t let go of the past!” or something like that.  I just don’t think that has to be the energy around it. Why can’t it just be like, “That was really formative for me and it’s hard for me to get to know you if I can’t tell you this thing that happened when I was young.”

We’re really conditioned out of that. And I want to hear about your first kiss. I just do. I think it’s interesting. I don’t find it to be disrespectful to your current partner. Let’s just talk about it.

Nancy 22:14

It’s not really all about you, José, as we like to say.

Yeah, you know, it’s funny, I’m in a Giving Circle. I get together with a group of friends here in Oakland… Well, we used to, in The Before Times. We got together four times a year to pool our resources and donate it to a charitable organization.  The best part of the meeting- we’ve been together I think 15 years now, this group of ladies – we have an icebreaker. The host always gets to pick the icebreaker and they are like that. We all know what each other’s marriage proposals were, we all know the worst bridesmaid’s dress we ever wore, and it’s so cool.

I love that part because you find out things about each other you didn’t know. It’s the quirky questions that get the best answers and I think, in some ways, are so illuminating about this person who you think you know – she’s a fellow mom at your school, or you go to church with her, or whatever. Then you find out that that the guy she’s married to wasn’t her first proposal, or whatever it is. It’s really interesting to me. Makes the whole world a little bit more interesting.

Laura 23:19

Same. I absolutely love hearing other people’s stories of who they used to be or how they got to who they are now. I have a whole group of mom friends that I’ve only known five years and so we’re constantly saying things to one another, like, “Oh, in my 20s…”, whatever, and people are like, what? But then it also kind of makes sense to who they are now. Sometimes it makes you think, “Ah, okay. That’s why you’re super weird about parties.” So it does deepen your friendship on a shallow level and sometimes on a deeper level of okay, it’s all making sense now.

Nancy 24:04

Right. The book is also a useful tool for self-reflection. Because some of the questions, like the “What broke you?” question…I really thought about that for the day after I read that. Because I was thinking the things that have broken me, the times where I’ve really been struggling, aren’t necessarily the ones that seem obvious on the surface. The losses that were big, sometimes I was prepared for those. It was the sneak attacks that usually got me.

Even if you’re not using this book as a tool to talk with your friends, I think it’s worth reflecting for yourself, writing in your journal, whatever it is, just to have that. It was thought provoking for me in a way that I appreciated.

Laura 24:43

Well, another thing I’ve learned doing this share topic online for so long is that a lot of people do not have a group of friends that they could go through these questions with. Like, a lot more people than I think I knew, they don’t have a friend group. They don’t have a bestie, they don’t have some of these things that we talk about really casually.

So, first of all, I wanted to give them a tool, if they were in a situation where they could have an icebreaker, where they could start a better conversation in order to cultivate those relationships.

But also, if you’re in a place where you just don’t have it, you’re underwater in motherhood, or you’ve always had trouble with friend groups, whatever it is, that you can still really take a lot from the book with just your journal or with just a long walk. Just appreciating all that you’ve been through or the people who made an impact or any of the different things I brought up. It doesn’t have to be done with others. I don’t want to alienate those who feel like this is just a grownup version of sorority or something, to all read this book together. It does not have to be that at all.

Nancy 25:51

The other application I saw for this is if you have been at the same people in your pod for almost a year now. I was like, “Oh, some new questions I could ask the two people I’m living with now!” One has moved on, she has gone back to college. But really, it’s been the three of us staring at each other since March. So you know, I’m always looking for, “What’s a new thing we could talk about that’s not the same thing we’ve been talking about since last year?”

Laura 26:16

Yes, exactly.

Nancy 26:17

I’m gonna ask my husband tonight, “What are your magical moments?” and if I’m not number one, there’s going to be hell to pay.

In a minute, we’re going to come back with Laura Tremaine, author of Share Your Stuff. I’ll Go First. 10 Questions to Take Your Friendship to the Next Level, but we’re going to take a break for our sponsor first.

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[MUSIC]

Nancy 28:16

So we’re back with Laura. Laura, you and I are in the same club, in that we brought out our debut books at midlife. After many years of labor.

Laura 28:25

Yes.

Nancy 28:26

I just wanted to acknowledge that because there’s all those lists of “Twenty at 20!” and “30 under 30!” and, lady, I am proud of those of us who have gotten to this point and have not been so worn down by life that we can still actually make new creative work. So congratulations, I’m clapping silently behind my microphone for you.

Laura 28:45

Thank you so much, and to you! This is maybe not the path either of us expected, but here we are. And I don’t know, we bring a different flavor to our first books, I feel like.

Nancy 28:56

Well, I was gonna say: do you think that it was harder or maybe easier to be a debut author in your 40s than it would have been if you had done it 10 years earlier?

Laura 29:05

On a purely selfish personal level, there were things about it that were easier. I’m 41. I care less about what people think. I can tell these stories that I told in the book better than I could have told them even five years ago, let alone 10 years ago.

On the other side, I feel, like anything else…everything’s a little bit easier when you’re younger in terms of energy and pitching yourself. There are things that would have been easier a while ago, but now that it has unfolded the way that it has, I do feel like this makes sense for me. I probably would have blown at six ways to Sunday if I had done this when I was 30. I mean, it would have been good intentions, but I didn’t maybe have the right priorities. Now I feel more sure-footed in general; not every single day or every single moment, but in general I feel more sure-footed. And so I was able to make the decisions around the book and around the marketing and around shopping the book, all of these things I feel like I was able to do from a totally different place of confidence.

I wanted to know what you think about it.

Nancy 30:13

I’m a big believer that things unfold the way they’re meant to and I can look back now and say, “It’s a good thing that I didn’t get published with the first book I wrote, because this is what I learned in that process.” So I’m pretty Zen about all of that.

I certainly wish, like you said…I had really good intentions with that first book. It would have been nice at some level if I could have succeeded. But I realized I did succeed, just not at the thing I thought I was succeeding at. I didn’t get published, but I was succeeding. I just didn’t know that that was the road I needed to be on.

Laura 30:45

Well, that is true for me, too. I was a different type of writer and wanted to be a different type of writer than what my actual skill set is. That’s what I mean about, “I would have blown it,” not because I wouldn’t have wanted to do well, but I just would have tried to be something different. I feel like I have the confidencee of being like, “Oh, no, I know exactly who I am. This is how I write. I’m putting out a polka dot book. It just is what it is.”

Nancy 31:10

It is a polka dot book.

Laura 31:11

I want to ask you if you think that being a podcaster has made you a better writer.

Nancy 31:17

Okay, girl, remember how I’m supposed to be asking the questions?

Laura 31:20

Sorry.

Nancy 31:21

No, I just want to point out – I’m going to answer the question – but this is who Laura is. She asks questions and she’s interested and that’s what makes her such a good guide in this book. I’m just pointing that out. It obviously is so baked into you. I love it. What was the question?

Laura 31:36

Do you think that being a podcaster has made you a better writer or no?

Nancy 31:40

For sure.

The funny thing is that when I started the podcast, there was some grief involved in it. Bcause I did it after my second book – not the first book that didn’t make it, the second one – and I was like, “I gotta do something creative. I’m not doing well with my writing so I’m gonna try podcasting and maybe I’m not a writer. Maybe that’s the problem. I wasn’t meant to write something.” And a couple years later, I finally have the published book out.

For sure, it makes me better able to talk about my books. I love doing presentations – I’m meeting with a school group this week –  I do all kinds of presentations around the idea of gratitude letters to all kinds of audiences. I’m super comfortable with that, just because I’ve been behind the mic with podcasts so much. That is a big part of making a book successful, being willing to go out there and promote it.

But from a writing standpoint, I think that also blends over. Because in editing the podcast, I’m always looking for the story arc from the beginning of the episode to the end, and that’s a big part of being a writer too. Does that make sense?

Laura 32:45

Total sense. The editing, because I also edited my show for years, made me a better writer as much as the speaking into the microphone. I do think it in general, it made me a better communicator, which of course then made me a clearer writer.

I took a break from writing because I used to write five days a week on my blog for years and years, which was a fabulous discipline. I really cut my teeth on not only writing a sentence, but writing for an audience and all that kind of thing. Well, when I started podcasting, I took a break from writing. I would write occasionally on the blog, but not very often.

So when I sat down to write this book after years of mostly speaking on the podcast, I was worried I was going to be really rusty writing, And I was, a little bit. But on the other hand, I was like, “Oh, no, I’m a just a stronger communicator now. I know exactly what the punch line is,” kind of thing. So that was a surprise.

But it is one of the things I’ve been talking to other creators, whatever kind of creator they are, is to maybe try a different medium, just for a minute, and see if how it translates to whatever your heart song is. Writing is my real passion but I didn’t write for years. The podcasting changed that.

Nancy 34:03

Yeah, I think it’s good advice and I just wanted to say by the way, that another place that your book and mine really align, and if anybody’s read The Thank-You Project, I would say Chapter Two of Laura’s book, which is called Who Was There? – it dovetails so nicely with what I talked about in The Thank-You Project, about expressing gratitude to the people who impacted your life in a profound way. You have these great fun lists at the end of every chapter and one of them was “10 Letters I Never Sent.” I think you should send that letter to Stephen King. I am dead serious. There is not a smile on my face over here, Laura Tremaine. He would love to get a thank-you letter about how impactful his writing was to you. Send that out.

Laura 34:45

Well, maybe. Maybe not.

Nancy 34:46

You might not hear back from him, but it’s a good thing to put out in the world. I’m encouraging you. I wrote to Jane Austen, come on. You write to Stephen King.

Laura 34:55

When I was a kid I wrote to Judy Blume and She. Wrote. Back.

Nancy 35:01

What did she say?

Laura 35:01

Well, I wrote her this letter about how much I loved her and then also was like, “I don’t know how to write a story, how do you do it?” So she wrote back. She must have had some kind of a newsletter which I didn’t know, but she sent this printed out Judy Blume newsletter thing. But then she hand wrote, in the margins, a personal note to me of, “You just have to sit down and do it and you have to practice,” and some kind of really lovely thing. But she hand wrote it in a purple pen on this Judy Blume newsletter and I was so impressed even then. Even Young Child Me was impressed that she didn’t just send the form letter of like, “Thank you for contacting Judy Blume” or whatever. She really wrote.

Nancy 35:43

Do you mean the kind of letters I was getting from Melissa Sue Anderson over there at Little House on the Prairie? Those are the kind of letters I was getting. I love that story. Judy Blume, that’s awesome.

Laura, I want everybody who’s listening to know where to find you. What’s the best place to go?

Laura 35:57

Well, I’m most active on Instagram where I’m @laura.tremaine, that’s where everything lives. But if you want to find my book or listen to my show, go to 10thingstotellyou.com.

Nancy 36:10

I’ll put links into the show notes. Now, over on Instagram, you are so generous about sharing book recommendations. You’re obviously a huge reader. When are you getting all that reading done? You have kids at home still, right?

Laura 36:20

I do. And now they’re like, literally at home in the pandemic.

Nancy 36:25

Oh, I love it.

Laura 36:26

I have a reading trick. I have a little trick that anybody can read a book every two weeks if they set a reading timer for 20 minutes.

So I learned this trick when I was breastfeeding, and I would have to do 10 minutes each side or pumping or whatever else I was doing. I would have a timer going and I would read during that time and I realized how much I was reading with just a 20-minute timer. I started doing that over a decade ago. Now, I tell everyone to do it. I read nonfiction in the morning with my 20-minute timer and then I read a novel in the afternoon before dinner or in the evening before bed. I set the timer for 20 minutes each time. So I’m able to do it three times so that’s an hour of reading a day. I mean, that really adds up.

But even if you’re only able to do a 20-minute reading sprint a day, you can read your average size book, you can read a whole book in two weeks at 20 minutes a day.

Nancy 37:29

But the simultaneous breastfeeding is optional, right? I don’t have to do that.

Laura 37:33

You do not have to involve your boobs in any way.

Nancy 37:36

Thank God. I just had the worst flashback to try to read when the baby hears a sound in the other room and twist their head and you’re like “Noooooo!” Sorry, I’m getting too real. Laura, what’s next for you? What are you working on?

Laura 37:49

Well, this was a two-book contract so I have another book due by the end of this calendar year. So I am going to start that in earnest in the spring. I’m still doing my podcast which I just truly love.  It was a passion project for a while now it has become part of a business for me and so I really, really love doing 10 Things To Tell You. That’s sort of all I’m doing right now: podcasting and writing, podcasting and writing.

Nancy 38:16

That’s plenty. Also, you’re keeping your children alive during a pandemic.

Laura 38:21

That is plenty for me, yes.

Nancy 38:22

This goes for you listeners too. You’re upright and wearing some pair of shoes? They don’t have to match. They can be slippers. You’re doing okay.

Laura 38:24

Exactly.

Nancy 38:25

Alright. So we have one last question we always ask. Laura, what one piece of advice do you have for people younger than you, or do you wish you could go back and tell yourself?

Laura 38:38

I wish that I could tell myself that everything is going to take longer than you think. Because when I was in my 20s, or late teenage years into my 20s, I really fell hard and to all of those messages you get from people like “Carpe Diem! Life goes so fast!” I had this sense of urgency for my entire 20s and I don’t really think that it did me any favors.

At the time, I thought I was doing the hustle and really putting myself out there and all this but honestly, everything in my life took longer than I thought it was going to take: my marriage, conceiving children, my career, writing a book…All of it, with very few exceptions, took so much longer. I feel like if I had been given that heads up instead of the constant messaging of “It goes fast! It goes fast, act now!” This kind of anxiety-inducing mentality, I think I would have settled into myself a little bit better. I really did have a low hum of anxiety that, “Oh my God, oh my God, all opportunities are going to go any second!” No, all opportunities do not go away any second. You do not have to seize every moment like it’s going to take a long time and you need to just settle in

Nancy 39:57

Not everything is limited time offer.

Laura 39:59

Yeah! God. It really made me real frazzled. It made me really frazzled, even on the emotional side of like when your children are little, and it’s like, “Oh, it goes so fast! Soak up every moment!” and so I really tried to heed that advice. But you know what happened? Those years are so slow. It went so long.

Nancy 40:22

They’re still here! I still have time with them. Right? Well, let me tell you with my 23-year-old living at home, I got an extra dose of it this year. This was my thing about the pandemic that I’m trying to really be grateful for. She’s still here.

Laura 40:36

Yeah.

Nancy 40:37

But now she cooks and will share a cocktail with me occasionally.

Laura 40:39

That’s amazing. You are living the parent’s dream now.

Nancy 40:42

Laura Tremaine…the book is Share Your Stuff. I’ll Go First. 10 Questions to Take Your Friendship to the Next Level.  I recommend it, just to read and consider for yourself. Definitely if you need some help getting back out there in the world and having conversations with people you’re not living with, this is a great way to get started. Laura, good luck with it! I’m so excited to know about it and we’ll be in touch.

Laura 41:05

Thank you so much. I super appreciate being here today.

[MUSIC]

Nancy 41:12

Ok, everyone, I hope this gave you some new questions to ponder- for yourself, together with your pod, and maybe over your next Zoom catchup with a friend who you can’t yet see in person. Just think, someday when someone asks, “What broke you?” You might answer, “The day I realized I was on my own waxing my brows for the next little while.” I might put into my Magical Moments category the time my husband handed over the new clippers and asked me to cut his hair. I felt all-powerful there for about 5 minutes as he kept saying, “How’s it going? How’s it going?”

Let me know what you thought of the episode – you can email me at [email protected], or send me a message via Instagram, FB, and Twitter @midlifemixtape. Every rating and review makes it easier for other listeners to find me, so I’m grateful to you for adding your thoughts, wherever you listen!

I also hope you and everyone you love is staying safe and healthy. It’s been a hella long year but we are so much closer to the end of this trial than we ever have been before.

See you next time!

42:24

[THEME MUSIC – “Be Free” by M. The Heir Apparent]

The post Ep 91 “Share Your Stuff” Author Laura Tremaine appeared first on Midlife Mixtape .

“A sense of endless possibility”: Different Together founder J. Christopher Collins on his new book, “Mending Our Union,” why face-to-face conversation by people with differing viewpoints can foster hope, and practical tips for tense talks.

I could be wrong. I suppose it’s possible. (I could be right)

J Christopher Collins 00:00

I’ve asked some of the Different Together participants, why do you keep on coming back here? And I commonly hear that, “it’s because I’m more hopeful. I’m less dismissive of people’s opinions.” And that is a starting point that is hopeful.

Nancy Davis Kho 00:16

Welcome to Midlife Mixtape, The Podcast. I’m Nancy Davis Kho and we’re here to talk about the years between being hip and breaking one.

[THEME MUSIC – “Be Free” by M. The Heir Apparent].

Nancy Davis Kho 00:38

Hi listeners – This is Nancy Davis Kho, host of the Midlife Mixtape Podcast, and author of The Thank-You Project: Cultivating Happiness One Letter of Gratitude at a Time. Valentine’s Day is coming and if you’re thinking, “Oh great, yet another holiday in captivity,” may I suggest a way to make it stand out from every other Sunday since last March? Write your Valentine, your Galentine or your Bacchanal-entine a gratitude letter for all the ways they’ve improved your life, and hand it over along with a copy of my book! You can find The Thank-You Project in bookstores, online, or for audio download and here’s some incentive – if you buy the book and you’re planning to give it to your Valentine, email me at [email protected] tell me who you’ll gift the book and letter to and I’ll mail you a personalized bookplate to stick inside! Valentine’s Day SOLVED. Now let’s get back to real romance by which I mean, rewatching Bridgerton.

[MUSIC]

Hi everyone, and Happy 2021! You know if you listened to Episode 89 at the end of last year that I needed to take a bit of personal time off after the death of my mom in December. And I just wanted to start off this episode in this year by thanking all of you who reached out to check in on me and express condolences. It was a rough go as, frankly, was appropriate, and even once I started feeling better, I really couldn’t really exhale until after Inauguration Day.

But I found once January 20th was behind me, I was actually feeling inspired and excited about the chance to talk to someone for the podcast and in particular today’s guest, J. Christopher Collins.

Chris is a native Texan and the founder of the Different Together Project at GLIDE Memorial Church in San Francisco. He’s also the author of the new book, Mending Our Union: Healing Our Communities Through Courageous Conversations. Upon graduating from St. Edward’s University in Austin, Texas, Chris was recognized with the Presidential Award, which the highest honor given to students who have demonstrated excellence in leadership, academics, and service to the community. After 27 years in Texas, Chris moved to New York and earned his Masters of Public Administration and Public Policy Analysis at NYU’s Robert F. Wagner Graduate School of Public Service and he now lives in San Francisco with his wife.

Let’s settle in for a courageous conversation with Chris.

[MUSIC]

Welcome to the Midlife Mixtape Podcast, J. Christopher Collins. I’m so pleased to have you here today!

Chris 03:11

Hi, Nancy. Thanks so much for having me.

Nancy 03:13

Well, listeners will know that I have taken a bit of a pause in doing this show. I lost my mom in December and if anybody’s gone through a loss like that, you know that it takes a little while for you to feel like yourself again. I’m not quite back yet, but I was kind of trusting that the Universe would put a guest in front of me who would make me want to put the headphones back on and have another conversation. So when I read about your book, Chris, I was like, “That’s it. That is the energy I want to start 2021 with.” I’m excited to talk about your book, Mending Our Union: Healing Our Communities Through Courageous Conversations because that is top of mind right now.

But first, Chris, the question we always ask on this show, what was your first concert and what were the circumstances?

Chris 03:55

My first concert was Willie Nelson.

Nancy 03:58

I love Willie.

Chris 03:59

Willie Nelson at Stubb’s BBQ in Austin, Texas.

Nancy 04:03

You’re from Austin, right?

Chris 04:04

Yeah, I’m from Texas, went to college in Austin and Stubb’s BBQ is in downtown and it’s a great music venue. My dad, at a young age, introduced me to old country like Willie Nelson, Ernest Tubb, Johnny Cash, so I definitely grew up with that old steel guitar country sound. While I was in college at St. Edward’s University in Austin – Willie plays in Austin all the time – I called my dad and said, “Hey. Willie is playing. Won’t you come down and we’ll go see him?” He said, “Okay” and came down. We went to the concert together. It was the first time I had been around any of my parents with the smell of marijuana in the air.

Nancy 04:52

How did that go?

Chris 04:53

It was good. It was fine. It was another step into adulthood, I think.

Nancy 04:58

That’s right.

Willie is great. One of the things I love about him is that it’s obviously a family employment situation. He’s got all his family members up there playing with him and I think it’s so sweet. I think that might be a very big part of the reason he makes music.

Chris 05:12

There is a strong sense of joy you can see in his eyes and his face when he’s up there. He’s one of the great legends of our time and everyone in Texas loves Willie and somehow he’s been able to be this progressive voice in a very conservative state, supporting Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders for President. Yet everyone across the political spectrum loves him and he somehow figured out something I think we need to tap into, something we can learn from.

Nancy 05:42

We’re going to talk more about the way that people can bridge the gap that way. Bbut you do your work under the affiliation of GLIDE Memorial Church, which is a nationally recognized center for social justice, and it’s dedicated to fighting systemic injustice, creating pathways out of poverty and crisis, and transforming lives. What I love about GLIDE, though, is it’s the only church I know that has conducted a U2-charist, which is based on the music of U2. Have you ever gone to that service?

Chris 06:09

No, that was before my time. But I know that Bono is a big fan of GLIDE and Cecil Williams and Janice Mirikitani, the founders and I’ve heard people reflect on those days. But unfortunately, that was before I came around to GLIDE.

Nancy 06:27

Well, when concerts starts again, when bands start touring again, if U2 comes to town I’m guessing they’ll come by GLIDE and do another U2-charist.

So your book came out in January. It’s called Mending Our Union: Healing Our Communities Through Courageous Conversations and it’s based on the work that you’ve done through a program called Different Together as I mentioned. It’s part of the programming at GLIDE Memorial Church. So let’s just start by hearing about Different Together: what is it, and why did you decide to start it?

Chris 06:56

I will take you back to the days following the 2016 presidential election.

Nancy 07:02

Must you start that way? Actually, it was better than the 2020 election. Go ahead.

Chris 07:07

Donald Trump had just been elected and I was shocked by the outcome and also really realizing that I was out of touch with tens of millions of people, with Americans who voted for him, despite all of the red flags that came up during his campaign. And in those days following the election, I wanted to do something. I knew I needed to do something, but I didn’t know what that was.

I was standing on the street in San Francisco one afternoon and an older white woman approached me and said, kind of under her breath, “I do not say anything in this town. But I’m glad that he won.” I resisted the temptation to be dismissive but I chose to go into this conversation.

I said, “Well, why is that?” She said that the election wasn’t about race, that the race issue isn’t as bad as it was in the 1960s. And I said, “Well, it’s not really up to us as white people to decide whether it’s better or worse. We need to listen to the people who experience it and see what they have to say.” The conversation went back and forth for just a few moments and we parted ways and we wished each other well and it was really a pleasant conversation considering the topic.

But I walked away realizing that there is power in these connections and that there is power in disagreement and sharing different perspectives and challenging each other. I felt relieved that I was able to communicate with someone that I strongly disagreed with and wanted to do more of this.

So from that interaction was born the Different Together Project at GLIDE and we’ve been meeting regularly with conservatives, both in the Bay Area and across the country, since the beginning of 2017. It has transformed me the way that I view this topic, the way I view other people, as well as the people who participate regularly in it.

Nancy 09:15

Now, I want to ground this in the fact that you are a straight, cisgender white man and I am a straight, cisgender white woman and we both operate from a baseline of privilege even as we’re here talking about reconciliation and mending. What would you say to someone who says, “These are two privileged white folks telling us how to fix disunity in this country when so much of the disunity is sowed by people who look just like us?” Like, “Here comes some white folks again to tell us how to make things better”?

Chris 09:45

I would completely agree with that. I think that bridge building is a hobby for people that are not discriminated against. It’s a luxury to be able to do bridge building work because I don’t have as much at stake in these difficult conversations as, say, a black person does, or another person of color, or a trans person, or a gay person. Disagreements might hurt my ego, but they don’t hurt my soul like it would be, if someone were to challenge an immutable characteristic of my skin color or who I love.

So what I think that the bridge building work can do for white, straight cisgender people is to develop the skills to open our hearts to people who don’t have the luxury or are more hesitant to join into bridge building conversations. I talk about in the book, Mending Our Union, I bring up the Plato’s Parable of the Cave, where people are chained up in a cave and they can see shadows on the wall.  One person breaks free and actually goes out of the cave and explores the world and sees what these images are, these things that were creating the shadows on the wall, and how that just completely transforms you into seeing the world as it is, rather than just seeing the shadows. I challenge the readers to evaluate whether we are seeing the shadows on the wall, or we are breaking free from these narratives that we live and going out and exploring the world with curiosity and trying to understand people and understand their stories, understand their values, how they came to the beliefs that they now hold. I think that there’s a big opportunity for the white, straight cisgender community to really begin to make some headway on this.

Nancy 11:55

Not necessarily just an opportunity, but an obligation, I would say. I mean, the fact that we can treat it as a situation or a conversation that we opt into by choice says everything. In reading the book, I mean, I’ve had this feeling before, but it just solidified this feeling for me that it’s work that needs to be done precisely because it doesn’t impact us as much.

I have to say coming into this, obviously, the 2016 election was terrible. I would say 2020 was even worse, even if the outcome made me happy. I think part of why this book appealed to me is because I do feel so angry. I do feel so angry at what I saw on January 6th and the fact that there are so many people who are on the other side of this divide, and I know that anger isn’t productive. I know anger isn’t going to fix things.

In reading the book, I mean, I felt so skeptical, honestly, Chris. I was like, “How could I have a conversation with somebody who voted to take away marriage rights for people who I care deeply about who happened to be gay, or are elevating a leader who is clearly racist and why do I have to have a conversation with that person?” After reading your book, I thought, first of all, it made me feel, “wow, maybe there could be change.” It also comes from a place of wanting to be a compassionate person and wanting to be someone who is willing to listen. I think I’ve gotten worse at that in four years, I really do. I’ve been guilty of putting people in boxes and putting labels on people, as much as anyone. So I really appreciated that your book gave very actionable ways to unlock ourselves from those kinds of limitations.

I would say your mom was right. It was good that you put in a lot of stories. In the book, Chris talks about how his mom read the first draft and she said, “You’ve got to put in more stories of how it worked.” But actually, Bruce Feiler was one of my guests in Episode 88 of the podcast and this is what we talked about, how the proper response to a setback is a story and how telling a story about what we go through gives us power over it and kind of helps us through it. I really felt like the stories are what made your book sing.

So what I would want to know, if I hadn’t read the book yet, is how it is Different Together actually works. Walk me through how the program works so that people can understand where this possibility is.

Chris 14:36

I want to go back to just one thing that you said.

Nancy 14:40

Because that was a RAMBLE. You can tell I haven’t been on the podcast for six weeks. I’m like “Oh, words! They all want to come out all at once!” Sorry.

Chris 14:49

You mentioned being angry and that’s certainly something that is felt universally, I think, across the political spectrum right now and something that I feel very strongly as well. Anger is a source of energy and I think that we can tap into it for productive purposes.

For me, practicing mindful self-compassion has been transformative in allowing me to tap into that. No longer am I a prisoner to the anger that previously simmered in my body. I now can use anger to fuel my desire to build peace and to make valuable change in my community. And not only does that connect me with other people of goodwill, it grants me the opportunity to challenge beliefs that I oppose and do so in a way that leaves a conversation open for future conversations. That is how the process of a Different Together meeting works.

We start every meeting going through a list of group agreements, like be sure to listen, speak respectfully, it’s okay to show emotions, just not to do so in a way that diminishes somebody else, speak from your own experience, don’t use broad generalizations of other people, things like that.

We focus on exploring a topic, rather than debating a topic. Debate is a concept that humans have used for thousands of years to talk about the tough questions of our day, but that has been the only thing that we have been using. I think that we are missing opportunities to explore deeper, because debate is about winners and losers. Debate is a performance. It’s a tactical game that we play where we’re not necessarily exploring truth when we debate, we are looking to be victorious and win. That winning might mean dismissing the truth. It also might mean character assassination. So Different Together works to not debate but to explore and to try to find a deeper sense of truth. We try to incorporate stories and values to help accomplish that goal.

Nancy 17:26

One of the stories in the book that really stuck with me was a conversation you talked about through the program where in one of the small groups that were meeting, there was a Trump supporter and there was a trans woman named Meredith. On the surface of it, that conversation did not go well. The small group came back to the larger Different Together conversation and it didn’t appear that the conservative person had really heard what Meredith was trying to share. Meredith felt like she had not been heard. I guess what struck me was that the impact of that conversation wasn’t immediate, but it might have been the first step toward real learning.

Meredith talked about the fact that she recognized through that conversation that she needed to present her story differently that she could strengthen the way she shared her story, so that other people could relate to it more.  I wondered whether the conservative guy – I think his name was Dan, right? – whether the next time Dan meets a trans woman, and he said he had never had before…maybe next time he will think of this conversation he had with Meredith and be more open. It just reinforced for me how some of these… I mean, it’s a long game. It has taken a long time for us to get this divided. These conversations, each one, is just a little ripple in the pond, but you don’t know where that ripple can go and what good that ripple can do. So it’s kind of a plea for patience and perseverance in having these tough conversations.

Chris 19:07

Yes, I was concerned about that conversation. I go into detail about the book of what was going on in my head as the moderator of this conversation thinking, “Oh, my God.”

Nancy 19:20

You really have to think on your feet. I mean, Holy smokes.

Chris 19:24

Yeah.

Nancy 19:25

Everything is shifting around you, as you’re moderating these conversations.

Chris 19:29

It can be tough. But I think that we’re all going through this and trying to learn how to do it. This is not something that we, as a society, have as a skill set. I think that at that moment, I told the group, “I don’t really know what to do here!”

But the words of Dr. King came to mind. The words he wrote in the letter from Birmingham Jail, he said, “I’m not afraid of the word ‘tension’. There is a tension that is necessary for growth.” I reminded the group of that concept, that if we are meeting and we sense the tension, we see the tension, we pull back the curtain of our society, then that alone is doing the work.

Now whether we leave all feeling good and happy, well, that’s not necessarily going to happen at all of these meetings, because we’re divided and we have a lot of work to do. I think that the courage that Meredith had to share her story, and to do so in an environment where she knew that she was not among like-minded people, I think is incredible.  I don’t think that Meredith will necessarily see the impact that she has made.

Nancy 20:54

Right.

Chris 20:55

Now, what Dan experienced from that, I don’t know whether that made a lasting impact or an impression on him. I don’t know, and Meredith may never know. But it’s about not necessarily what we can see that we’re doing, but are we moving the ball? Are we advancing compassion?

Are we at least pulling back the curtain and sitting with the tension that exists in our society? Or do we sweep it under the rug and ignore it like we have for centuries? So I think what Meredith did and allowed us to do is to experience the discomfort that she must live with every day.

Nancy 21:40

I talked about how the first half of Mending Our Union has a lot of stories about how this program has worked in practice. Also, how you started it, when you kind of said, “I’m going to do this thing. Oh, no, I just said I was going to do this thing!” Which I love. It’s relatable. Yay! Take a big step that you have no idea what you’re doing! We all know that that can work out great.

But the back half of the book has really practical steps and you talk about four steps to healing division. Could you talk just fairly quickly about what those four steps are?

Chris 22:14

Well, I think that before we really start to think of building bridges, it really starts within. So the first couple of steps are, “What are we doing for ourselves? What are we doing to build ourselves up to having conversations?” Because the bridge building process doesn’t start with going and talking to your brother, or an uncle, or an aunt, or someone you’re close to, or best friend about the division. There’s too much at stake in those conversations.

We start to work within, and it can start by listening to podcasts that have different perspectives, reading books. On my website, I list many of the books that I’ve read to help me with that process of opening up and exploring different ideas that are not a part of my living experience. Then to get engaged with people to start practicing the skills of talking, but do that with strangers. There are organizations out there that are ready to help you do that, like Different Together, or Living Room Conversations, Braver Angels. Then begin to bring these conversations face to face, not online, not through texting or social media, but where you can see a person, either through video or in person.

Nancy 23:39

Yeah, I love the idea of starting to have these difficult conversations with strangers because you think of Thanksgiving and how fraught –  I mean, maybe it was always fraught –  but it’s really bad in an election year. To have had some of those practice conversations first so that you can go in with a sense of confidence and a sense of “I know how this might go”, that’s a relief. I think would allow people to actually digest their Thanksgiving dinner instead of being sick about it the whole month of November. It’s January, you guys. We can work on this as we roll up and maybe we can even be there in person, without masks! A girl can hope.

Chris 24:16

One day.

Nancy 24:18

Yeah, your website jchristophercollins.com and the book both include great resource lists of books and podcasts. I definitely skew towards never listening to conservative media. There were some on there I’m like, “Hmm. I’ve never heard of that. I should check that out.” So that is the challenge for myself, to try to listen to some of those shows and read some of those.

Chris 24:41

Also, while listening, noticing what’s happening in your body. Noticing the reaction that your physical body has to hearing something that you find objectionable. That is another one of these aspects of preparing yourself for these conversations that is important, that noticing.

Nancy 24:59

When you said the phrase, because this is how my brain is wired,  I thought, “Anger is an energy?” Well, yes! That’s a Public Image Limited song featuring Johnny Lydon, and that’s how I feel.

In a moment, we’re going to come back with J. Christopher Collins to talk about his own midlife reconciliation. But first a break for our sponsor.

Hey there! Join me this coming Thursday, February 4th at 6 pm Pacific, 9 pm Eastern Time for a Zoom conversation with my dear friend and past Midlife Mixtape guest, author KJ Dell’Antonia. I should say, my dear friend BESTSELLING NEW YORK TIMES AUTHOR KJ, because her debut novel, The Chicken Sisters, which came out in December went immediately to the top of the best fiction seller list. Reese Witherspoon selected it for her book club the same month! I am pretty sure Reese also optioned it for a movie but that’s a question I’ll ask KJ on Thursday. Thanks to A Great Good Place for Books in Oakland, I’ll be interviewing KJ via Zoom and you can join in for free wherever you’re sitting on the globe. Look for the link under the Events tab on the Midlife Mixtape FB page, or go to Great Good Place for Books – that’s www.ggpbooks.com/event ! Three generations. Two chicken shacks. One recipe for disaster….Booklist called The Chicken Sisters “An utter delight from start to finish!” I hope you’ll tune in for the discussion on Thursday Feb 4 at 6 pm Pacific!

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Nancy 26:29

We’re back with J. Christopher Collins, author of Mending Our Union: Healing Our Communities Through Courageous Conversations and I want to talk to you, Chris, about your own midlife reconciliation.

By that I mean, I was struck in reading the book by the fact that you’re old enough to have spent formative time on both sides of the political divide. You were a young Texas Republican working for Rick Perry and then later you were a slightly older Democrat working for House Majority Leader, Steny Hoyer. I’m wondering how you think that being what we call “in the years between being hip and breaking one” that made it possible for you to reimagine yourself as a Reconciliation Activist? Because I’m guessing that’s a new job title. I don’t think there’s a huge section on LinkedIn for Reconciliation Activist job listings.

Chris 27:17

I don’t know anyone else that has that title. I think that’s a good observation.

Nancy 27:22

Trademark.

Chris 27:24

Starting something new, I think, is surrounded by, for me, the strong sense of failure. For me, it’s not about what I can accomplish in my life. It’s about how far I can carry the ball down the field before it’s time to pass it off to the next generation. As I said earlier, we may never see the fruits of our labor when it comes to something like healing division. In Mending Our Union I talk about how it may take hundreds of years for this process to bear fruit.

Nancy 28:05

You talk about the Sri Lankan example, which I thought was so interesting. Do you mind sharing that?

Chris 28:10

There is a Sarvodaya movement in Sri Lanka that put together a 500 Year Peace Plan. And the leader of this movement said, “It took 500 years for us to become mired in a bloody civil war and it’s going to take at least that much time to come out of it.” That 500 Year Peace Plan talks about economic development, it talks about cross cultural conversations.

I look at the United States and how long it has taken for us to be this divided. So maybe we need our own 500 Year Peace Plan. And that sounds really daunting. But maybe we are 150 years into it, from the beginning of Reconstruction after our own Civil War. Yes, the pendulum has swung back and forth and sometimes it feels like we’re going backwards.

But it’s about, in my lifetime, how much can I do to advance the ball, to move the cause down the field. Not to, whenever I’m in my 70s or 80s, look back and say, “Wow! Look, we did it!” But getting it to the point where it’s ready to pass off to the next generation.

So with that perspective, it helps me to reassess what I can do in my lifetime to promote healing and promote peace and that if we stick with this work, we may make a meaningful impact.

Nancy 29:35

It’s almost like being in midlife, you have a little bit more realistic goal setting. When you’re in your 20s and you think everything is open, every avenue is open, “I can do everything I want to do!” Then by the time you you’ve made it to your 40s and 50s and you’re banged up a little bit, you think, “I’m going to make some progress and I’m going to feel good about that and I’m probably not getting to the finish line. But still it’s progress.” Would you say that’s true?

Chris 30:02

Yes, and I also say in the book that I think we can see that Dr. King, in his last speech, knew that he was not going to see the fruits of his labor. I think that he knew that the end was near for him. Yet he kept on doing what he knew he needed to do.

Nancy 30:24

A friend of mine was recently talking about hope. He was referring to Amanda Gorman’s speech at the inauguration, which… that elevated me. That was my church service for the month of January.

But he was talking about how hope, when it’s expressed by young people, is especially powerful.  I wondered if you think midlife hope has any special magic. Is there anything special about people in their 40s and 50s taking a run at this work, of mending our communities and believing that that’s possible, has anything magical to it?

Because we could be jaded.

Chris 30:59

Yes, I do hear a lot of jaded commentary around this work from people at midlife, like, “What is the point of all of this? I’m not talking to those people.” Those people – from both sides of the spectrum.

I think that the reason to do it is to be face to face with these opinions and beliefs that we find objectionable, because it puts a human face to it. And whenever there’s a human face to it, we psychologically experience that differently than whenever we read it on a page or hear someone, an elected official, speak of it on TV. Having a one on one personal connection with that connects us as humans, and it makes us more likely to see that person as a human, rather than an idiot or an enemy.

That’s not a solution. That’s the beginning of a process. I think that it awakens a youthful sense of hope that something big is possible with this. I’ve asked some of the Different Together participants, why do you keep on coming back here? And I commonly hear that, “it’s because I’m more hopeful. I’m less dismissive of people’s opinions.” And that is a starting point that is hopeful.

Nancy 32:30

That’s great. If you guys are all full up on hope in January 2021, good on you. But if not, Chris, where can people find your book and become engaged in the work that you’re promoting?

Chris 32:43

Mending Our Union is available just about anywhere you can buy a book, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop.org, if you want to go the local bookstore route.

Nancy 32:52

We love our local bookstores. Just call them up and tell them to order it.

Chris 32:57

Different Together, we meet monthly online. The Coronavirus has taken us to zoom which is something we’ve wanted to do before the Coronavirus. It just forced our hand to do it now. We can include anybody across the country who wants to do this work. Sign up by going to glide.org/church/different-together/ or just sending me an email at [email protected].

Nancy 33:28

I’ll include links to all of these in the show notes so you guys can check it out there as well.

Chris, we always ask one last question: what one piece of advice do you have for people younger than you, or do you wish you could go back and tell yourself?

Chris 33:43

To be curious. I look at how much good has come in my life because of curiosity. The constant drive to learn to grow and to absorb knowledge, how curiosity also fuels the desire to heal division to learn about someone else’s story. One of my favorite quotes from Eleanor Roosevelt is, “Do one thing every day that scares you.” I’ve started Different Together. I’ve written Mending Our Union. Behind this, there’s a lot of fear, and maybe something you know about? You’ve written a book, you’ve started a podcast.

Nancy 34:21

It’s terrifying.

Chris 34:22

It is.

Nancy 34:23

We’re crazy. What were we thinking?

Chris 34:24

At each phase, I found that my fears were unfounded and then it’s on to the next stage of fears and those fears are unfounded and each time my comfort zone increases. And that has awakened a sense of endless possibility. I just feel if we approach life with curiosity and leaning into discomfort and fear, it’s pretty amazing what can happen in our lives.

Nancy 34:54

If only we’d all known that earlier, right?

Chris 34:57

Yes, I could have used this advice few years ago.

Nancy 35:01

I know. But this is the good stuff about getting older, you get the keys to the kingdom of wisdom, right?

Chris 35:06

That’s absolutely true.

Nancy 35:07

Well, J. Christopher Collins author of Mending Our Union: Healing Our Communities Through Courageous Conversations, you can find it online at your local bookstores. Thank you so much for coming on this show. It’s really important work and I hope as we go into 2021, we all recognize the steps that we can take to advance the ball down the field for a more just and fair society and a less stressful next presidential election. That’s just me. That’s my wish. Thank you so much for being on the show, Chris.

Chris 35:36

Thank you, Nancy. I’ve really enjoyed this.

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Nancy 35:42

I hope Chris’ encouragement to stay curious resonates with you. We can all play some part, large or small, in moving the ball down the field and fixing all the things that are broken in this country. I would say it’s not that we can, but we’re just obligated to. I hope this conversation at least makes you hopeful that those small, healing conversations might add up over time.

Speaking of healing conversations – I wondered if you listeners ever think, well after a year of the pandemic, that’s it, I’m ruined for public circulation. Is that just me?

I really think that sometimes. My entire wardrobe these days is adult onesies from the Gap and then over that I put long sweaters like Bea Arthur on Maude. I mean, it’s not my best look and yet I go out in public like that all the time with my masks because I figure nobody knows who I am anyway. But in all seriousness, I wonder sometimes if we’ve been at this shelter in place so long that we may have gotten out of the habit of interacting even with the people we know and love. So I’m excited to talk to my guest for the next show, Laura Tremaine, who’s written a book called “Share Your Stuff: 10 Questions to Take Your Friendships to the Next Level”. I need some new questions for my friends besides, “Do you know if CVS has gotten a restock of toilet paper? Do you have a mask that you don’t hate? What is time?” Join me next time and Laura and I will talk about what questions we can ask that will make us sound functional again. Until then, stay healthy!

[THEME MUSIC – “Be Free” by M. The Heir Apparent]

The post Ep 90 Reconciliation Activist J. Christopher Collins appeared first on Midlife Mixtape .