Welcome to episode four of Modern Money Doughnuts (MMD), hosted by Steven Hail and Gabrielle Bond. MMD is an international show about modern monetary theory and ecological economics.

(All episodes of Modern Money Donuts are listed on this page by Modern Money Labs.)

Today Steven and Gabie talk with Professor Philip Lawn of Torrens University. Phil is the world's leading ecological modern monetary theorist and one of the pioneers of a statistic called the Genuine Progress Indicator (GPI). In the first of a series of interviews with Phil, we will talk about the role the GPI could play in guiding policy makers towards a just and sustainable economy.

(Note: Apologies for the internet connection with Phil, which was a bit dodgy in places.)

Here's the video from which this audio comes from. The audio is unedited.

MMD is hosted by KRTD Media, and the audio podcast is, for now, hosted by Activist #MMT. So if you'd like to be automatically notified of each new MMD episode, then subscribe to Activist #MMT on your favorite podcast platform.