** Discuss this episode with us at Macro ‘n Chill, our virtual community gathering. Tuesday, September 15, at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/jBqKoQB6RtOjQPE8cW17ew

This week we’re having a long-overdue reunion with John T. Harvey, known to our listeners as the Cowboy Economist because of his plainspoken, accessible way of explaining complex ideas. John talks with Steve about his latest book, US Business Cycles 1954–2020. The conversation challenges mainstream economic theory that treats markets as naturally self-correcting, when in fact unemployment, inequality, oligarchy, and recurring crises are outcomes generated by the system itself.

The discussion brings MMT’s insights about money and real resources into direct contact with the question of class power. If the federal government can finance full employment, and a Job Guarantee could give workers a genuine alternative to precarious private employment, why don’t we do it? John and Steve agree on the central contradiction: the obstacles are not primarily economic or technical. They lie in the distribution of power and in institutions structured around the interests of capital. The challenge, then, is not simply figuring out what is economically possible, but understanding what prevents us from doing it.

John T. Harvey is the Hal Wright Professor of Economics in the Department of Economics at Texas Christian University. He is a well-known heterodox scholar who has published extensively, including two books: Currencies, Crises and Capital Flows (2009) and Contending Perspectives in Economics (2020 2nd edition). His most recent book is US Business Cycles 1954–2020, published by Cambridge University Press (December 2025). He has earned numerous awards for teaching and research and his work focuses on exchange rates and business cycles.

** Look forward to an exciting 'Chill' this week! Join our online gathering to discuss this podcast & build community. Tuesday, September 8th at 8pm ET/5 pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/nFGkw4EfRUCv9EHxqCFFqg

They say the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn’t exist. Capitalism pulled off something even trickier: convincing us it’s just the way things work.

Historian Andrew Hartman joins Steve to examine how American public education became a battleground in the struggle over class, ideology, and political consciousness. Drawing on his book Education and the Cold War: The Battle for the American School, Andrew traces how the radical possibilities of the 1930s, including militant teacher organizing and encouraging students to question capitalist individualism, were systematically narrowed by the Red Scare. Schools increasingly shifted toward preparing students to adapt to the existing order.

Steve and Andrew explore the crucial role of liberal anti-communism, the Cold War equating of capitalism with democracy and freedom, and an educational culture that treats capitalism as ordinary reality while Marxism and socialism must continually justify their existence. The result is a powerful look at cultural hegemony: how the boundaries of what Americans consider reasonable, possible, or even thinkable were constructed, and why so much of that Cold War ideological architecture remains with us today.

Andrew Hartman is a distinguished professor of history at Illinois State University and the author of several books, including Education and the Cold War: The Battle for the American School; A War for the Soul of America: A History of the Culture Wars; and Karl Marx in America, out in 2025 with the University of Chicago Press.

His website: Andrew Hartman

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andrewghartman

Twitter/X: @HartmanAndrew

IG: https://www.instagram.com/professorandrewhartman/

BlueSky: @andrewhartman.bsky.social

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-hartman-45045610/

Erald Kolasi returns to the podcast to remind us that AI doesn’t simply exist weightlessly in the ephemeral cloud. Drawing on his research into its global energy and emissions impact, Erald traces AI’s vast material infrastructure, from mining, semiconductors, water, energy, and logistics to data centers and power generation. His life-cycle analysis reveals a monster-sized ecological footprint, in contrast to conventional estimates that focus narrowly on electricity consumed at data centers.

But this goes deeper than technology. Steve and Erald examine AI through the dynamics of capital accumulation, monopoly power, financial speculation, imperialism, and the intimate relationship between corporations and the capitalist state. Its explosive growth reflects decisions about who controls society’s resources and what they are used for. The conversation closes by imagining a radically different trajectory: publicly controlled technology directed toward reducing necessary labor and meeting human needs rather than enriching private capital and accelerating ecological destruction. What kind of political economic system would this require?

AI is the subject, but capitalism is the story.

Erald Kolasi is a writer and researcher focusing on the nexus between energy, technology, economics, complex systems, and ecological dynamics. His book, The Physics of Capitalism, came out from Monthly Review Press in February 2025. He received his PhD in Physics from George Mason University in 2016. You can find out more about Erald and his work at his website, eraldkolasi.com.

Subscribe to his Substack: https://substack.com/@technodynamics

**Join us on Tuesday to discuss this episode in our online gathering, Macro 'n Chill. August 25, 8pm ET / 5pm PT. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/NGxWl6qMTaKXPhR51uHkwA

If public power repeatedly stands behind private finance when it fails, shouldn't that same power be directed toward employment, productive capacity, and human need? So why isn't it?

Economist Eric Tymoigne returns to the podcast to examine the rapid growth of private credit and private equity through Hyman Minsky’s theory of money manager capitalism. Eric argues that the expansion of payment-in-kind interest, securitization, layered leverage, and dependence on rising asset prices are signs that Ponzi finance is becoming increasingly embedded in private markets, making the financial system more fragile. He warns that efforts to “democratize” these markets by opening them to ordinary savers will broaden the pool of investors available to absorb risks and losses (which should really be borne by the wealthy.)

The conversation then moves from financial instability to political economy. Through an MMT lens, Eric explains the enormous potential capacity of a currency-issuing government to contain financial crises, sustain incomes, and direct investment toward public purposes. Again we must ask why it doesn't happen. This raises the deeper question of whose purposes the state serves. Steve and Eric discuss public investment, community banking, the federal job guarantee, the influence of wealth on political decision-making, and the limits of electoral democracy in a capitalist system.

Eric Tymoigne is an Associate Professor of Economics at Lewis & Clark College, Portland, Oregon; and Research Associate at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. His areas of teaching and research include macroeconomics, money and banking, and monetary economics.

Find him on Twitter @tymoignee

Daniel Tutt and returning guest C. Derick Varn join Steve to discuss their new book, The People Are Not One: Socialist Strategy After Left Populism, whose title states its thesis outright. When the left speaks of a unified people confronting a corrupt elite, it conceals the real stratifications inside the working class and borrows a Manichean framework that functions identically on the right. Their argument: since 2008, from Occupy through Syriza, Podemos, Corbyn, and Sanders, left populism has served to extinguish the class antagonism at the center of socialism, operating as a new Popular Front in which liberalism holds the upper hand.

The conversation lands directly on this show's own history. Varn is blunt about his long-running argument with MMT advocates: he never disputed the nature of the currency, he disputed the analysis of power. They are not going to let you have a Job Guarantee, because it removes their ability to discipline workers. Steve agrees, describing his own path out of economism and the trap of thinking a basket of policies and a few more progressives in office adds up to a threat to capital.

On class consciousness, Varn is careful with a term he calls one of the most abused in socialist history. The reason to organize around the working class is not its victimhood. It is that the working class already possesses, collectively, the skills to reproduce society. The differences within the working class are resolvable. The difference between the working class and those who live off its labor is not.

They close on electoralism. Varn's formulation: electoralism is a tactic, not a principle. Democracy is the principle. Tutt points to Lenin's actual position, that ballots are justified only alongside extra-parliamentary means and on terms of strict class independence. The Popular Front let liberalism lead. The United Front did not.

If you've followed this show from Ep 218 - Beware! the Counter-Revolution with C. Derick Varn, through Ep 318 - The Death of the Left? with Simon Winlow & Steve Hall, Ep 371 - You Can't Vote Away Colonialism with Fadhel Kaboub, and Ep 388 - From Theory to Praxis: Lenin's Revolutionary Formula with Breht O'Shea, this episode is the strategic argument those conversations kept circling.

Daniel Tutt is the author of Psychoanalysis and the Politics of the Family and How to Read Like a Parasite. His writing has been featured in Jacobin, Current Affairs, Philosophy Now and Aeon Magazine. He is the host of the Emancipations podcast and study group collective. Find him on Twitter @TuttReal or his Substack: https://danieltutt.substack.com/about

C. Derick Varn is an author, poet, and educator, and host of the podcast Varn Vlog, where he publishes podcasts and series on the great thinkers, and interviews authors and academics. He is the author of Apocalyptics and Liberation and All That Bright Etc. He has been a union rep for the past six years. Find him on Twitter @TheRealVarnVlog or his podcast https://varnvlog.buzzsprout.com/

This week, Hamza Hamouchene returns to the podcast to talk about Towards Palestinian Liberation: Global Perspectives on Anti-Colonial Resistance and Solidarity, the new collection he co-edited with Abi Bae. Palestine, he argues, cannot be understood simply as a “conflict” or humanitarian crisis, but as a national liberation struggle against settler colonialism embedded in a larger system of Western imperialism and global capitalism.

Hamza traces Israel’s role within the imperial order, the class interests of Arab ruling elites, and the political economy of occupation and dispossession. Drawing connections to Algeria, Vietnam, South Africa, and other anti-colonial struggles, he emphasizes the revolutionary potential of international solidarity and the necessity of connecting struggles against colonialism, capitalism, and imperialism.

Steve brings MMT into the discussion, arguing that an analysis of real resources is incomplete without confronting the imperial power and violence through which those resources are controlled. The conversation ultimately points beyond solidarity with Palestine toward a larger project of liberation. As Hamza wraps it up:

Too often, mainstream narratives on Palestine are narrowly focused on Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. Solidarity is reduced to a matter of human rights and international law violations. Hamza stands firm in his refusal to treat Palestine as an exception to the global struggle against imperialism.

Dr. Hamza Hamouchene is a London-based Algerian researcher-activist, commentator and a founding member of Algeria Solidarity Campaign (ASC), Environmental Justice North Africa (EJNA) and the North African Food Sovereignty Network (Siyada). He is currently the Arab region Programme Coordinator at the Transnational Institute (TNI). His work is focused on issues of extractivism, resources, land and food sovereignty as well as climate, environmental, and energy justice in the Arab region. He is the author/editor of five books: “Towards Palestinian Liberation: Global Perspectives on Anti-Colonial Resistance & Solidarity” (2026), “Dismantling Green Colonialism: Energy and Climate Justice in the Arab Region” (2023), “The Arab Uprisings: A decade of struggles” (2022), “The Struggle for Energy Democracy in the Maghreb” (2017) and The Coming Revolution to North Africa: The Struggle for Climate Justice (2015).

** Do you want to talk about this episode with us? Come to Macro ‘n Chill, our online gathering. Tuesday, August 4, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/nLks4k8gQWKQzTAn0CEsoA

Ashwin Shantha joins Steve for a discussion challenging Western narratives on China – particularly the all-too-common opinions that dismiss its socialist character. This episode makes the case that China is a genuine socialist project where the state disciplines capital rather than being governed by it.

Ashwin illustrates how China's green industrial revolution—driven by rapid progress in electric vehicles and renewable energy—marks a qualitative break from capitalist development paths. Unlike the Global North's extractive model, China's centrally planned approach prioritizes use-value objectives (clean air, energy self-reliance, and technological independence) over exchange-value maximization. The state constructs markets strategically, using mechanisms like the dual-credit policy to force both domestic and foreign automakers toward sustainable production targets.

While the episode isn’t focused on MMT, it highlights how China's monetary sovereignty enables fiscal space for long-term industrial planning. The nation's ability to issue its own currency and direct credit toward clean development highlights a crucial distinction from Global South countries trapped in IMF-imposed structural adjustment programs. This self-determined policy space, which is denied to nations like India and much of Africa, allows Beijing to absorb neoliberal shocks while maintaining state control over the economy.

China's sustainable growth model is anti-imperialist in two key ways. First, energy independence reduces reliance on imported fossil fuels that expose the country to geopolitical leverage through choke points like the Malacca Strait. Second, technological autonomy focuses on developing indigenous productive forces that break the Western monopoly over clean technology.

By keeping private capital subordinate to state priorities, China shows that socialist modernization offers a workable alternative for the Global South, avoiding the de-development and resource plunder that characterizes Western industrialization.

China's model may still have some contradictions, but it continues to show what is possible when state power is wielded in the interests of the working class.

Ashwin Shantha (they/them) is a doctoral student whose research focuses broadly on the political economy of sovereign development in the global South, focusing specifically on China and South Asia. Some of their existing work has researched South-South development cooperation between China and Pakistan through the Belt and Road Initiative, as well as, more recently, China's state-led green industrial revolution in the electric vehicles and renewable energy sectors. Ashwin is also the host of the International Solidarity Podcast, which focuses on the politics of anti-imperialism and socialism in the global South.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@journalofintlsolidarity

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/journalofintlsolidarity

Substack: https://intlsolidarity.substack.com/

This week we’re releasing an episode from Scotland‘s Political Economy podcast. Host William Thomson invited Steve to join him to compare and reflect on their favorite interviews and the thinkers who most shaped their worldviews – from Clara Mattei and Fadhel Kaboub to Bill Mitchell, Jason Hickel, and Marxist-Leninist thinkers. They explore the limits of MMT without class analysis, the capture of academic and political institutions by oligarchic interests, and the importance of historical materialism, Gramsci, and Lenin in understanding how power truly operates.

The episode looks at the evolution of the two independent podcasters, their intellectual awakenings, and their shared conviction that the fight is not for better policy within capitalism, but for a fundamental transformation of the system itself. And for listeners to Macro N Cheese, it provides insight into Steve’ seven-year journey, taking the podcast from a strict MMT focus to a broader political economic analysis rooted in class struggle, revolutionary theory, and a critical view of electoral politics.

William Thomson is a political economist focused on the political economy of Scotland. His work considers how the economy actually operates, how decisions are made, and how power, institutions, and policy shape outcomes across Scotland.

Support his work at patreon.com/Scotlandspoliticaleconomy

@Williamgallus on X

**Classic episode re-release! Originally published Sept, 21, 2019**

Legal scholar Rohan Grey knows how to use analogies to give shape to an idea. He illustrates his points with references to popular films, folklore and lyrical poets. With experience in the realms of music, early childhood education, political economy, and jurisprudence, he brings Modern Monetary Theory to life in unexpected ways. Throughout this conversation with Steve, he connects economics and the law by illustrating subtle conceptual parallels.

The episode begins where any discussion of macroeconomics should begin — talking about money. Instead of thinking of it as a “thing,” or a store of value, Rohan asks us to think of money as a series of relationships, structured by law. He calls it a web of invisible filaments. The MMT story starts with state-created money. While the original logic had to do with tax obligations, the desire for money takes on a life of its own. We don’t wake up thinking about wanting money to pay taxes. We want it for all those other goods and services we need and desire.

Steve asks Rohan to discuss talk about the Federal Reserve, an institution often misunderstood by even the sharpest political minds. The rest of this episode takes us through its history and before, beginning with the earliest years of the American colonies, when states were developing their own economies. This was a time when local governments were still relatively accountable to their constituents and the democratic process was vibrant. The constitution was designed in large part to move monetary powers from the state level up to the federal level. In fact, Rohan says that, in contrast to the American revolution, the creation of the US Constitution was a counter-revolution.

There’s far too much history to recount here. Rohan takes us through Lincoln’s creation of greenback dollars, the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, FDR, and the decades-long bitter political battle for supremacy between the Department of Treasury and the Fed culminating in the Treasury-Fed Accord of 1951.

The struggle to create a central bank was basically a power grab by the capitalist class. Throughout its history, the Fed has zealously guarded its autonomy just as the Supreme Court has done; each determined to remain unaccountable to democratic forces. Both institutions employ the same tactic, convincing the public that they alone have the unique expertise to deal with complex matters. Ultimately Rohan maintains that the Federal Reserve adds no real value to the government or the economy. Our listeners will surely agree.

Rohan Grey is an assistant professor at Willamette University College of Law, where he teaches contracts, business associations, financial institutions, and a seminar on law, money and technology.

Find his work and an expanded bio at rohangrey.net

@rohangrey on Twitter

**We’re listening to and discussing this episode on Tuesday, July 14 at 8pm ET/5pm PT, in our online gathering Macro ‘n Chill. We’ve invited Breht to join us, so bring your questions. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/PXkazv5WTWW7b7kMExA8uw

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." Steve's guest, Breht O’Shea of Rev Left Radio and Red Menace podcast, believes that dedicating one's life to fighting for this vision, even without knowing the outcome, is more meaningful than pursuing capital's vision of wealth and status.

Steve invited Breht to help tackle one of the most misunderstood and weaponized texts in Marxist theory: Vladimir Lenin's Left-Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder, a book sometimes misused as a cudgel to pressure leftists into voting for the Democratic Party.

To set the record straight, Breht places the 1920 pamphlet in its proper historical context. It was written after the successful Bolshevik Revolution to advise European socialist movements on how to avoid fatal mistakes.

Together, Breht and Steve break down Lenin's dual critique: the ultra-left "infantile" error of purity-spiraled sectarianism, and the right-wing "opportunist" error of liquidating the revolutionary movement into bourgeois liberal politics. Lenin's strategic genius lies in maintaining firm revolutionary principles while remaining tactically flexible.

The discussion extends beyond the text to cover the necessity of organization and discipline (democratic centralism), the constant threat of counter-revolution, the failure of social democracy, and how fascism functions as capitalism's immune response to left-wing threats.

Breht O’Shea is the host of Rev Left Radio, the co-host of the Red Menace podcast, and author of the upcoming book “Letters to a Young Revolutionary” published by Iskra Books. Breht is also a longtime organizer in Omaha, Nebraska, a union electrician, and married father of three.