More Than A Mile

On this episode of More Than A Mile, I'm excited to have Chris Blankenship of Bluebird Meadows Farm join me. Bluebird Meadows Farm is located in Northeast Ohio, and their passion is offering delicious premium local food directly to consumers, using sustainable farming practices to raise the livestock naturally. And he's gonna tell us all about how that works. We will hear how Chris went from the military to factory worker before farming and his enterprising son's foray into selling on Market Wagon too. As well as how they're giving back to the community through a very impactful nonprofit in Ohio. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (00:36):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer, and the CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (01:26):

All right. Well, my guest today is Chris Blankenship of Bluebird Meadows Farm. And I had the pleasure actually just about three weeks ago I traveled to our Northeast Ohio, Cleveland area hub and was visiting with some of the farmers and artisans over there at the Market Wagon fulfillment center. There I got to meet Chris face-to-face, heard a lot about your farm from before then. And we had a good conversation about lamb and grazing and farming practices. And now you get to be my guest here and we can share that conversation and more with our listeners. So, Chris why don't you introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit about your farm, Bluebird Meadows.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (02:03):

A pleasure to be with you this morning, Nick, and thanks for having me. I'm Chris Blankenship, Bluebird Meadows Farm. My wife, Julie, we have four children. It's been a long journey for us getting into farming. I, I grew up on a small farm. We raised some pigs, so I was familiar with that. But I went into the Marine Corps, came out, got a factory job. My wife is a teacher. We thought, okay, things are going great. We'll just live our lives. But as we all know, life happens and I lost that factory job. So I had the opportunity to go back to school and get my bachelor's in teaching. But while I was doing that, I needed some income because we were used to two incomes and we were down to one all of a sudden.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (03:01):

That's a big change.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (03:02):

Yeah. Yeah. So Julie's dad had been raising some flowers, fresh-cut flowers, and he was selling them at farmer's markets on the weekend, and he was making a little bit of money, but we thought, hey, anything helps. So we thought, okay, we could do that. Cause he's already got it started. And so we did it at some other farmer's markets, raised some vegetables, things of that nature, and soon realized that, geez, there's a lot of work that goes into that.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (03:36):

Wait, you mean, you mean farming's is not easy?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (03:39):

Yeah. So with the background I had in the small pig farm that I grew up on, and we had some land—and we were raising animals for ourselves anyway, just, you know, for our consumption, through meeting people at the farmer's market and seeing what was there and not, we were like, Hey, maybe a big idea to have some sausage and bratwurst. So we got about four head of pigs and this was about 18-20 years ago.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (04:10):

Okay.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (04:12):

We just started from there and I thought, okay, so four head, eh, if we don't sell 'em, I told Julie, that's my wife. I said if we don't sell them you know, we can use them, give 'em to family, or friends or something. But we soon found out that four head was nowhere near enough. And those were sold in about a month. So we just kind of grew from there. And then with that, we had some health issues with one of our children, Lucas. He's our youngest son. And he was diagnosed with EE, which is eosinophilic esophagitis which really, in a nutshell, it's his body detects allergens and his eosinophils just overreact—It causes choking, many different diagnosis for that. But the bottom line is that he had to have a clean source of food. No longer could we go to the grocery store and just pick something up off the shelf, knowing that it's full of antibiotics, full of hormones, whatever they put in there to preserve that, to give him the longer shelf life. So we were forced to kinda go that route with his diagnosis as well. And then from there, from there, Nick, we've just, we've been blessed. It's grown and here we are today—we do five farmer's markets, seven Market Wagon locations and still growing. So we're glad.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (05:52):

Wow. We are so glad to have you with us. That's quite a journey from military to factory to farm. So you're, you are I guess I was gonna say first generation farmer, but you learned a little farming from, you know, your folks you grew up, you said with some hogs now, today you raised more than just hogs. Right? You've got what, tell me what all commodities you've got on the farm today?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (06:18):

All right. So what we do we have grass-fed beef. Of course we try to, swine-wise, we do everything farrow to finish. Occasionally we have to purchase some feeders to help out if things get short. We started tinkering with lamb a few years ago. Learning a lot about lamb.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (06:42):

That's what you and I were talking about a few weeks ago. It was integrating lamb with the rotation of the beef.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (06:49):

Because I'm new to the lamb part of this I never really thought about, you know, as you were explaining to me—have them rotate behind the beef and the pastures and that's, and we'll certainly implement that this year.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (07:02):

Give it a try. They seem to crop a little lower and they like to go after things that the beef don't, but I gotta warn you so far for me, that's, that's entirely theoretical news because we we're grazing goats right now. The land that my wife and I bought is, well, I was completely taken over by thorn bushes and invasive species, and the goats are currently eradicating those, but that's gonna take several years. So we'll be switching to lamb in the next couple of years, but I haven't raised lamb myself, grew up raising beef and hogs as well. But yeah, I'm interested to see, I've seen a couple of other farms integrate the lamb really well into the rotation and interested to see if that works well for you. But I'm curious to learn more how, because in my farming head you've got, you know, from hogs are not quite as land intensive, acreage intensive, as grass fed beef. So can you share a little bit, I mean, if you went from four hogs to supplying several of our delivery locations and five farm markets with grass fed beef, was there, was there generational land available to you? Were you able, did you have family farming in your background that you were able to start to take over?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (08:10):

Yeah, we bought some land here. We always wanted to live in the country. That's where we grew up and we just like the rural setting. So we were fortunate—we were able to buy some land and we slowly started, once we realized, you know, that this was the route we wanted to go with the farmer's markets and adding more livestock and such that we slowly started adding pastures. And we just built from there.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (08:41):

Now, when you're, when you say adding pastures, were those existing pastures that then became yours or were they crop land that you went in and planted permaculture over?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (08:50):

Yeah. So this was all—the land we purchased was all crop land.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (08:57):

Corn and soy.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (08:58):

Corn and soy. Yeah. All the sprays and all the crap that they add to it to get it, to do all that. So we've been here about 20 years now and there's not been a single spray pesticide, herbicide, fungicide, anything added, but yeah, so we just slowly started developing those pastures with cover crops. Clover, you know, orchard grass, and for the hogs we do a pasture rotation with the hogs actually, and we do it in different stages of their growth. So, Through, from birth through about eight weeks, we leave 'em on our sow [pasture] for eight weeks. We don't rush 'em off. We want 'em to get that full nutrition from the mother.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (09:55):

You've got a dedicated sow pasture or a farrowing pen?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (09:59):

Yeah. And so after that eight weeks we ween 'em off. And I can tell you a story, Nick, when we first started doing this, I, you know, I, I soon realized I didn't need a vet except for in emergencies, but I'd had the vet come out and he would often try to get me to give them their iron shots and these different shots. And I was like, eh, I, I don't think I need to do that. And because, you know, by rooting and being out on pastures, they get all those minerals and that iron it's naturally in the soil. You don't need to give them those injections. They get that naturally.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (10:47):

Well, I grew up, I would've been the fourth generation on the farm where I grew up. And my dad had converted our dairy milking stanchions, that my grandfather had built, into a farrowing house, 12 crate farrowing house. We, we were, I didn't know it at the time. I didn't know any of these words. I was just a kid, but we were a CAFO. We had confined animal feeding. We had the hogs and doors and we farrowed in crates. And for our listeners who are not farmers like Chris and I, farrowing is just the term for when a hog gives birth to her litter. And that's farrowing. And that was about every eight week process for us was my brother and I'd go out and we'd pull all the litters out. And we had two shots we'd give 'em right underneath their hind legs, iron being one of them. And, but those hogs never saw dirt in their lives, except if we didn't clean out the pens fast enough. So you're right. They weren't getting any of those natural supplements.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (11:41):

Yeah. So, so from the waning, you know, the eight weeks we, we move 'em into a, you know, our first pasture. And that just is basically a Clover, alfalfa, orchard grass mix. And they love that. They love that. So they'll stay in there up to about 75-90 pounds somewhere in that range. Then we move 'em to our next pasture. And in there, we like to plant sweet beets with a cover crop.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (12:16):

So they've gotta go digging for those.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (12:18):

They've gotta dig it. So what that does that accomplishes multiple things. They're utilizing the whole crop cause they eat the root and the top and they're also tilling the land. And so I just simply, once we move 'em, you know, once they eat that pasture down and we move 'em to the next one, I just go through with the disc. So it's a minimal carbon footprint, right. I'm not plowing it. I'm not doing all this—the pigs have already plowed it. I'm just smoothing it over a little bit and re-seeding it.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (12:51):

With sweet beets.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (12:52):

With sweet beets and a cover crop. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (12:55):

Do they? So on our farm, one of the problems we have is they'll, they'll find a waller and they will compact that soil real, real bad. Does your rotation keep them from being able to be on the same spot long enough to make that compaction in a hog waller?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (13:12):

For the most part. I'm not going to say one hundred percent. There's times where they'll get that rooted out good. And we'll need to kinda get the loader and get that top soil back in there and kinda level it off a little bit.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (13:27):

Mainly we, this whole conversation now has devolved into me just getting farming tips from Chris. So the rest of you are just incidental to this conversation as you're listening in. Well, one of the things we talk about Chris, and I love talking about your rotations and I wanna frame it as we continue to talk about it is for our listeners, farmers are your mediator of your relationship to the land. If you're buying food from somebody else who grew it for you yeah. They're your food supplier, but they're mediating your relationship with the earth. And, and what you're listening to here is how Chris stewards the earth as a mediator for you, because that's ultimately what feeds us all is the soil that we, that we sustains us that brings us our food. And so we're talking about here with Chris is rotational grazing, and we'll continue to talk about your hogs. I'm also curious to learn some of the other things that you do to be sustainable on your farm, how you you've managed to not use any sprays or chemicals to sustain this pasture for 20 years. So just keep, sorry to interrupt you, but keep, keep letting us know how you're, you're doing this because I think it's fascinating and our listeners need to learn about it. What comes after sweet beets, Chris?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (14:37):

Okay. So after the sweet beets at that point, they are roughly about 175 to 200 pounds. I'm just eyeballing these animals when I do this.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (14:52):

Yeah. We get pretty good at weighing an animal with our eyes. Don't we?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (14:55):

Yeah. After you've seen enough of, 'em gone through this, they're roughly a hundred seventy five, two hundred pounds. And then we move 'em to our finished pasture, which goes back to the alfalfa. Cause we wanna keep the protein in 'em to finish off the alfalfa, the Clover and the orchard grass.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (15:13):

Yeah.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (15:15):

And they'll finish off in that pasture. We like to finish em off a pasture. I think if you can get that thing up to about 280 pounds, you you're doing really good. You know, the factory farms, they like to get these hogs to 240, 250, 260 in there. And on the pasture they need to get that weight up. They need to get that weight up because there's so much leaner—that muscle is being used, it's not standing in a barn.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (15:44):

Well, I'll share a little bit more about the economies of it. The when I was a kid, it was 220 lean hogs. Will anybody want it? And the reason is because those last few pounds to add are expensive from, from a standpoint of feed, you know, just think about how we grow, you know, by the time you're, you're 18, you're about full size. You may fill out a little bit more, but the amount of food you gotta take from the age of 18 to whenever you hit your, you know, adult weight, there's a lot of food versus what it took you to get to your, your mostly big size. And so from profitability standpoint, we started finishing off hogs really early on. We started these campaigns in the eighties called the other white meat. Well, pork shouldn't be white. And the best part of pork is the fat that's where a lot of the flavor comes from. But it's costly to make that fat with the feed rations that are used in confined animal feeding operations. So we basically trained Americans to eat lean pork. Pork chops that are dry. You gotta be, you gotta work hard to make sure they don't come out like shoe leather, cuz they never let 'em finish up that last piece, which you're talking about, which is that finish the marbeling. And I think that makes for a delicious hog. It's a high quality, high quality meat.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (16:53):

Yes, absolutely. Nick, we're so excited. We started tinkering around with some fodder last year.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (17:02):

Okay. Tell, tell us what fodder is.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (17:04):

So my definition of fodder is we use an organic seed. We want to get that higher in protein, something like barley. And basically just to summarize it real quick, you soak that seed. You, you stick it in a plastic tray. You want to have ambient light and average temperature of about 65 degrees. And within seven days you're going to have, so I'm not any chemicals to make this seed sprout and grow. I'm not even using soil. It, it just grows in this plastic tray, so to speak. And in seven days, you know, you, you water it each day. And in seven days it will have sprouted about five to seven inches. And I've gotta tell you, the pigs love it. They, they will eat that over anything. I did some experiments, you know, I'll put our non GMO feed in a dish and I'll roll that fodder up and put it in a dish beside of it. Every time without doubt, they go to the fodder, they don't even mess with the feed. And so that's talking about sustainability is something that we are really going to ramp up this year. We want our goal is to be able to finish our hogs off on fodder without the use of any grains.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (18:45):

So the grains that you would've fed 'em because you've talked about pastures, but hogs do need something beyond the pasture. And for most farmers that means grain whether that's some corn or soy or a mixture of 'em you're using barley, it sounds like, but instead of just letting them eat the grain by itself, let that grain sprout. And then the grain's own natural process is gonna convert the sugars it has in the seed to a tiny little plant called a cotalie. And so that it's same amount of energy going into the hog, but they like it better.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (19:18):

And there's no waste. They eat the roots, they eat the top.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (19:22):

Yeah.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (19:23):

And it's better for their digestive system rather than trying to digest, you know, those grains. It's more of a natural, sustainable way of raising livestock.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (19:35):

That is fascinating. And the barley that you're getting where do you source that from? Is that difficult to find, or are you growing it on your own?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (19:44):

No, we, we source it from our local feed mill. It's an organic barley, maybe in time as we expand this fodder operation, we might need to do that on our own. But, but right now we get it from our local feed mill and I've just been amazed at how the, you know, how the hogs just enjoy it. Now, our challenge is gonna be getting that right protein mix to get them finished off, to get that nice layer of fat at the end.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (20:11):

That's really neat. Well, so that's your hog operation sounds like you've, you've really, I mean, fine tuned this rotation with the hogs now, what, how's that different from what you do with your your ruminate animals, which are your cattle and sheep that digest just the celluloses from grass far differently than the way a hog does. Those are they're on different pastures. They're not rotating in with the hogs. Okay. And, and these are pastures that you've reclaimed from crop ground. So they used to be corn and soy. Now they're back into a permaculture and what's the process look like with that?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (20:49):

So what we do with our beef is, let's see, we have six, six pastures, and we rotate those. And depending on the type of, or not the type, the time of year, it is, you know, when the pastures are going great in the spring and early summer, you know, they can stay on those pastures a little bit longer. And of course, when it gets to the drier months, they have a shorter time they're able to stay on that pasture, cuz you don't want them to eat that grass down so low cause it's harder for the grass to recover or the Clover or whatever you have in your pastures. It's harder for that to recover if they're eating it down to the ground. So we like to, once it gets down about three inches, four inches, we get the cows off of it and move 'em to the next pasture.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (21:44):

That'll also prevent parasites by the way, especially in your lambs.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (21:48):

Exactly. And we follow our chickens. We have some laying hens and they follow the cows in the pastures because you know, they help to scratch and break up those manure piles that they leave.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (22:06):

Yeah. Cow pies.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (22:08):

Yeah. Yeah. The cow pies. But in terms of the beef, they're, they're an all grass diet. We don't put up our own hay, but we source our hay from a guy just around the corner who doesn't spray his fields. Matter of fact, he owns an organic dairy farm and he has hay.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (22:29):

I was gonna ask you cuz you no secret you're in the Northern states here. So that grass isn't growing, like for example, right now, as we're recording this on February 18th, so you've got hay, but it's coming from a nearby farm.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (22:43):

Right? Who follows the same, you know, who believes the same way we do in terms of not using the pesticides or fungicides on his fields for that hay. And so the cows are eating that, you know, when the pastures aren't growing.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (22:57):

Now one thing I know is, and many of our listeners might realize grass takes a lot of nitrogen. If you've had a, if you'd like to have a good flush lawn in your front yard, you're buying nitrogen at the hardware store every year, you're paying somebody to treat it. How do you in 20 years you haven't sprayed your fields. How do you keep enough nitrogen in the soil for those pastures to keep producing lush grass, to produce the beef that you're getting off of your farm.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (23:22):

So we raise broilers. Which are meat, burns, chickens. They're different than the hens. And these boilers, even though they're on, we like to have them on pasture as well. Everything is a pasture based system, but when it's colder weather, I mean, the reality is they're not out on the pasture very much.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (23:45):

Yeah.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (23:47):

So that manure, that chicken manure, which is rich in nitrogen tends to build up and we use that and it gets spread on the fields.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (23:59):

And so you are producing enough nitrogen inside the ecosystem right there on your farm to keep the fields nourished.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (24:08):

Yes. There, we do need to reseed about every three, four years. But it's doing an adequate job.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (24:15):

Wow. That's really neat. I appreciate you. You walking us through the, the whole system like that. Why is this matter so much to you, Chris? I mean, you are, it should be no secret. The way that you're doing things is not the easy way. I mean there's this pellet, you can go by called urea and it's just pelletized nitrogen, and you can go spread that on the field. It's way easier than raising one bird over here in order to get this off this byproduct that then you can transport. Why is all this matter so much to you?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (24:49):

Well, we just believe when I say we am talking about my wife and I, that it's our responsibility to preserve and to make this land, that we have to be able to pass it on to future generations. And so they can farm on it and have a healthy land. I guess we just want to extend that, you know, it's our job to take care of this land that we have. We can't destroy it because it can't be replaced. So we want to just take care of that and pass it on to future to generations.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (25:28):

That's what it's about. And you've got you said four kids growing up in there on the farm. Yeah. And we're gonna be talking with one of your sons next week, Zach. So the little, little teaser. Zach Blankenship and his food business that he's been able to, to start. I don't think it's a stretch for me to say from the inspiration of his dad and what he's seen take place in the family farm there. Now, how important is it to you? I mean, what does it mean to you to see your kids now becoming adults and entering into food businesses?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (25:59):

Yeah, it's so exciting. I mean, as a father, you know, when you're growing up and your kids are working with you sometimes you're like, I know they don't wanna be out here, but they're doing it anyway. But as they become their own people and adults move on in their life, it's nice to see them wanna take ownership and be part of what, you know, we've been doing our whole lives pretty much. And Zach is, he's all in. He is all in. He loves it and that's just so exciting and rewarding to see. I mean, it, it just is. And he has an entrepreneurial mind. He went to school and he got his four year degree in ag business. And I don't wanna take too much of his thunder, but he went from a desk job to, to now he's a full-time employee here on the farm and has some of his side businesses going, I'll let him talk more about those.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (27:00):

That's exciting. I look forward to that conversation that we're gonna have in our next episode with Zach but back to Bluebird Meadows Farm, and Chris, this has been a fun discussion. Thanks for sharing a little bit more of the detail of how you steward the land and and how you're raising it sustainably. Now, how do people, other than you being invited as a podcast guest and spend a half an hour explaining it, how does, how do your customers know about this? I mean, do you, is there a label on the product that says that you rotated your pastures or how are you able to get this message out to customers?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (27:37):

So we use a couple different methods. Of course, we have our website, BluebirdMeadowsFarms.com. Folks can go on there. And, you know, we have our story, how we got started, you know, type of practices we use and things of that nature. So they can do that. We like to communicate through social media, Facebook, Instagram, which we've been able to develop some relationships with our Market Wagon customers through Facebook and Instagram. That's been great. And also just, well, a couple other ways, you know, our in-person farmers markets, you know, folks are curious, they wanna know how things operate on the farm and you have those face to face conversations. And then before we went through this COVID pandemic, we like to have once a year, we would have like a hog roast or just a way of saying, thank you. And we'd have folks out. And they could see for themselves what we're doing and, you know, take a look around and that type of stuff.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (28:38):

So it's all about relationships. You're building relationships through social media, you're building relationships at your farmers' markets. I love to hear that you're are building relationships on MarketWagon.com. You've got customers that are following you and understanding what your practices are. Thanks for taking the time to build relationships with the people that are buying the food. It's more than just a transaction, isn't it? It's a relationship you have with the land and with the consumers. But I understand there's also another pretty important relationship in your community there that I I'd like to give you a chance to tell us about, cuz it sounds like a really fascinating story. You've already, you've shared that your son had some pretty serious health issues that kind of led you down the path of this farming method that you guys have taken to, but there's a camp nearby that other families that are affected in a similar way enjoy and, and you've been able to build a relationship with them. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (29:29):

Yeah, absolutely. So it's called Flying Horse Farms. It's down in Mt. Gilead, Ohio, founded by Paul Newman and it is such a wonderful place. When Lucas came down with the diagnosis of EE, not only did he struggle with, you know think of a 12, 13, 14, 15 year old child in school having to deal, you know, not be able to eat pizza or cookies, like, you know, his friends are doing. And so Flying Horse offers camps for kids with serious illnesses. And we were fortunate enough to find out about this and take him down there for camp. And it just did wonderful things for his confidence, for how he handled his illness. And we just wanted to be able to—we saw how much they did for him. And we wanted to be able to help in any way we could to help other kids, not only with the disease Luke has, but they foster kids with—or they have camps for kids with cancer or any serious illness you can think of.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (30:46):

They have camps for these children. And my wife's volunteered down there. My daughters have gone to sibling camps down there. Julie, my wife contacted Flying Horse Farms about, 'Hey, what do you think about doing a partnership?' We come up with some type of sausage because I mean, that's what we started this whole Bluebird Meadows Farm with was four hogs and some sausage. How about we'd come up with a sausage and the proceeds we just donate back to Flying Horse Farms to help you know, them to complete their mission of helping these kids out with serious illnesses. So we came up with our blueberry maple. So last year, all of our proceeds from our blueberry maple sausage, we were able to donate back to Flying Horse Farms to help them complete their mission of helping kids, not only the kids with the serious illness, but their families as well because families go through a lot with those children. So it, it's a great, it's a great place. It's dear to our hearts and we were fortunate to be able to, to give back to them. And we look forward to doing that again, actually.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (31:59):

So does that mean that if I look for blueberry maple sausage on Market Wagon, that a portion of those proceeds are going to this camp?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (32:08):

Blueberry maple breakfast links, a portion of those proceeds go to Flying Horse Farms.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (32:14):

That's awesome. That's really cool. And I'm glad that you shared that.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (32:18):

Yes. Thank you. Thank you. It's it, and I'm sure folks especially in Ohio around Columbus, I'm not sure where they have other camps at, throughout the state or throughout the nation. But I know folks around Columbus are probably kind of familiar with Flying Horse Farms. And it is just a special place for us. And we are so grateful to be able to give back to them.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (32:43):

In the time we've got left, tell us if somebody, other than finding you on MarketWagon.com and looking at Bluebird Meadows Farm, how else can people connect with you? Where can we find you online?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (32:52):

On Facebook we're at Bluebird Meadows Farm. Instagram, it's BBMeadowsFarm. And hey, if you're in Northeast Ohio, and you're not too far away from Lorraine County, we have our little farm store. You can swing by and pick up some nice healthy meat and local products.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (33:12):

All right. Well, if you're traveling through Northeast Ohio, look up Bluebird Meadows Farm. Are you gonna be on Google maps? Can we get navigation out there?

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (33:19):

Yeah, yeah. We're on Google maps. Yep.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (33:21):

Go by the farm store. And if you're not Northeast Ohio check 'em out on MarketWagon.com or on Facebook or Instagram. My guest today has been Chris Blankenship. Chris, thanks for joining me to talk about farming.

Chris Blankenship (Bluebird Meadows Farm) (33:31):

Absolutely. A pleasure to be with you, Nick. Thank you.

Nick Carter (Host, Market Wagon) (33:40):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, CastBox, PodChaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

Bales Farms is a special place for local food in Tennessee that boasts owner/operators including a cookbook author, a 15-time Grammy winner, and the most caring CEO (Chief of Egg Operations) you've ever heard of. Enjoy this episode of More Than a Mile as host Nick Carter talks with Aliceson and Barry Bales.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

My guests today are Barry and Aliceson Bales. And I am really excited to talk about farming and food. And also to fanboy out a little bit because I understand that I'm in the presence of a celebrity. Barry sounds like you've got a little bit of a background in Nashville and then Aliceson you've released a cookbook with quite a forward, right?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Guilty on all counts. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Let's start with you Aliceson. So Dolly Parton is hosting the 57th Academy of Country Music Awards this coming March in Vegas, but she also did something pretty cool with your cookbook. Is that right?

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

She did. She's so lovely and kind. And so when we were writing this cookbook this past year we were wondering who we could get to write some blurbs for us. And so Barry has over the years recorded with Dolly and he said, let's give it a whirl and see if she would write something. So we sent something to her, he sent something to her and she so graciously said yes, but she wanted to see the book. So we printed off a copy, a real rough draft and sent it to her. And...

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Well, we didn't have the book together. Right. Of course. So we were like, okay. So had to run up to the printer with a PDF on a zip drive and was like can you print this off real quick?

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

Right. So she looked through it all and wrote us this sweet letter and then said you can use whatever you want, however you want. But we don't edit Dolly. And so every syllable, comma, and period. So yeah, she was so kind and so generous and she is the busiest person that anyone knows. We say, no matter what you've done today, she has done more. And you know, she just came out with a novel and then she wrote an album to go with the novel and she's hosting the ACMs next month. And she is, I don't know if you've heard about Dollywood, but it just came out, was it yesterday, that on day one, if you are an employee of Dollywood, whether you're full-time, part-time, or just seasonal, you get college tuition paid 100%. Isn't that unbelievable? She is amazing.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

She is. She is. I remember learning about -- some of the book programs that she's done in Sevier County [Tennessee] and the graduation rates that she's driven there. It's just phenomenal what she does.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah. The Imagination Library. She yeah. She sends how...

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

It's every month. So your child gets a book every month from birth through kindergarten. It's amazing.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

And that's statewide in Tennessee and they've just recently expanded to Kentucky.

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah. Unbelieveable, every month. And they're really good books. I mean, it's like, classics, you know, it's The Little Engine That Could, and then at Dollywood in the summer you can go have the Ping One Playhouse and she's written plays to go with each book and she's written the songs and she is on the screen, performing the songs with the little ping one players that are out there. It's so sweet. She's amazing. Amazing.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yeah. Now you must have a pretty amazing cookbook because she read it, liked it, wrote the forward for it. So what's the inspiration that you came up with Aliceson for this cookbook, where does it come from? Are they family recipes? Are they things you've created, a mix of both?

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

A mix of both probably. I wanted this cookbook to inspire other people to cook for the people that they love. I am a really strong believer that food brings us together. And like you say, in your intro, it's more than just something that we eat. I mean, it is the fabric that can bring people together. And I just feel like over the past few years we've gotten kind of disjointed and, and we're so isolated and separated from other people. And I want to remind people and encourage them and inspire them that you can make great food for the people that you love. And you can sit around a table and you can enjoy people of all walks of life. It doesn't just have to be the people that are nearest to you, either in ideology or, or what or location, but you can bring people to you and, and open your world and open your heart to people.

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

And I think it makes a huge difference when you are feeding people, something that you've made and you've put your heart into, and it doesn't take a lot of time. Lots of effort. It doesn't have to, but that's so much more meaningful than going through a drive-through or swinging through to pick up pizza. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you can also incorporate homemade, wholesome, whole ingredients that have been raised, you know, for the meat that's been raised with care and respect and, and love, and it's not hard to do. And so that's what I wanted to inspire people to do and just remind them of that.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

So that's really cool. You, so it's family-style cookbooks. It's things that you, your desire is that these recipes are used to bring people around a table. I do. I think you're exactly right. I think it's, it's really fascinating how every culture throughout history and across the world right now, you can identify by their food. You know, we, we can build restaurants around, we can go to Indian food, but my wife and I travel to India a couple of years of go. And we, the, one of the one things that our hosts there wanted to show us was their food. And it was all about the dishes and, and the recipes that they had. And what are Americans known for? Fast food, right? And we invented that you can sit by yourself in a car or you can eat it on the way to soccer practice. And, and we lost something there. We lost something, our family, we nearly every evening, if there's not something really special going on, we, the five of us sit down and around a table with our three kids and we eat dinner together. And I just love it. I cherish that time.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Absolutely.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Well, thank you. I can't wait to get my hands on it and to read every word and syllable from Dolly in the front, and then to use some of the recipes. Barry, you've got a career as a musician, as well as a farmer. What, what percent gimme a percentage are, are you half musician, half farmer? Do they blend together? Can you not identify the two? How much, how would you say it?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Well, I would say right now, I'd say in the last couple of years, because of the situation we're in with COVID and whatnot 95 plus percent farmer.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yeah. Did you tour, or are you a studio musician or both?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Both. And that's really the only music I've been doing the last little bit is recording. Particularly. I've got a set up here at home and people send me stuff by email and record on it, send it back. You know, it's kind of been, the music has been decreasing and the farming has been increasing. The farming kind of has been sort of a long-term exit strategy from touring, or at least from, you know, to get to the point where I don't have to, I can pick, be more choosy on, on what I do. You know, I mean, I've been, I've been a professional musician for 31 years, so, and I still love it. I love the people that I get to work with I love the music. But, you know, after that long—hotels and airports and suitcases kind of get a little old, I thought, well, you know, this would be cool to—besides the thing, which we might get into about our son—but I just thought, well, you know, it'd be great to have something like this, that I can sort of transition off the road. And...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

The white line's getting longer and the saddle's getting cold. Is that what they say? I said, the white line's getting longer and the saddle's getting cold.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah. Something like that. Yeah, absolutely.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

So, yeah, it's mostly, mostly farming these days.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Good. So tell me a little history of, it's Bales Farms, right, in East Tennessee. And it's a century farm. Can you tell us some of our listeners what that means and gimme a little bit of a history.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Okay. Yes. In the state of Tennessee, there's a program called the Tennessee Century Farm Program. And it's just a kind of a little historical recognition and compilation of information of all the farms that have been in continuous agricultural production for at least a hundred years in the same family. And this, this family's been in, or this farm has been in my family since 1882. And our son Marshall is the sixth generation here. So I kind of, sort of grew up here. My mom was born and raised here when she got to be grown and got out of high school, she moved up to Kingsport and took a job and stayed up there. That's where I was born, but I spent every spare second I had down here with my grandparents, you know, they were my heroes and they would come and pick me up at school the day it let out for summer. And they'd take me back the day before it started back in the fall. So I feel like I grew up here as, at least as much, if not more than I did, you know, where I was actually born in Kingsport, which is only about an hour away.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Well, my family farm comes from originally, not too far from you. My great-grandfather, he moved to the flatlands of north central Indiana to start the farm where I would've been the fourth-generation farmer. He moved there from the Blue Ridge Mountains just south of you. And he always joked that he moved up here because he was tired of his cattle falling outta the pasture. So, and I think it's funny. So you're, you're raising beef and pork, right. Out on pasture, a hundred percent grass.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Yep. Completely grass-fed, grass-finished, beef, pastured pork. We do pastured poultry and our son Marshall, who's 14, he's the head of the egg operation. He's got he's down, down right now. But last summer, I think at the height, he had about 400 layers on pasture.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

And he's how old?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

14.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

14 years old, he's got 400 layers and he's pasturing them. So for some of our listeners who don't know how that works, you've got a chicken tractor essentially, right. It's on wheels or mobile. And so he drags that thing around what, every two or three days he's gonna move it to a new spot. Right?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Every day.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Every day he moves it to a new spot. Well, then I was a lazy chicken tractor driver.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

He's, he's got an egg mobile you know, on we built it on a car haul or trailer. And so he just moves it. He'll set up a big paddock, you know, with poultry netting, but he moves the tractor itself one length every day within that paddock, just because, you know, there's so much manure, it falls that it just creates a hot spot real quick. But, but yeah, he, he gathers the eggs, washes, em, packs 'em, you know, the whole deal.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Where does he sell them?

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

We do is drive. Is we deliver them? Yeah. For him.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Fourteen's not too young to drive [laughing].

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Just not on the road. Yeah. Yet.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

That, that you'll, that you'll record audio and, and have published right. There we go. Yeah. I think I was 12 the first time I was hauling wagons from one field to another, from my dad's grain operation. So does he sell his eggs on Market Wagon or anywhere else? Does he have a farm stand or does he set up at any farmer's markets?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

We do. No, we don't do farmer's markets. We do we've got twice a month pick up locations around the area and then and then on Market Wagon, and then people can come to the farm and, and pick up if they'd like, we've got a, a store on our website.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

That's fantastic. Now we've already touched on little pieces of it. And I wanna make sure that some of our listeners who don't necessarily know the makeup, chicken manure and chicken tractor and why you would move 'em around every day. I want you to tell me a little bit in your own words about like, what, what sustainability means for you on your farm, how you're stewarding the land, how you're taking care of the soils and just walk us through some of that, because you've at beef pork and chickens.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah, absolutely. And, and this is, it's kind, it's been a, has been a, a big learning curve learning experience and, and of course ongoing, but, you know, when I was growing up, we had beef cattle here and they just had run of the farm, you know, it's, it's, they just went wherever they want, as most people do, and didn't think anything about it. And the more I've gotten into it and the more I've of course gone to different conferences and listened to, of course, now we have the internet and YouTube and all that kind of stuff. We can hopefully learn things quicker. You know, I'm like a lot of people, I'm a huge disciple of Joel Salatin, Gabe Brown, Ray Archuleta, all those guys. And through that have learned a lot more about sustainable agriculture, regenerative agriculture. So just kind of in a nutshell, what that entails, at least as it relates to our farm is we rotate our cattle. Rotational grazing is the term. And we'll set up a temporary paddock with a temporary electric fence and try to just give the animals, you know, there's various formulas for figuring out how much grass they need and whatnot, but basically, we try to give 'em enough grass for one day. So in that area, they're in, and then the next day we come along and we move 'em to the next paddock, and we continue that all the way around the farm. And hopefully, they don't come back to that first paddock that they grazed on for at least 30, 45 days or more to give it a chance to regrow. And the reason that we do that is I was using this as an analogy, the other day—you know, if you tell your 10-year-old, Hey, go in the kitchen and fix yourself some supper, well, they're gonna go straight to the freezer and get out the ice cream.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

And, you know, that's kind of what cattle do, you know, they'll go straight to the really good stuff like the clovers and the orchard grass and Timothy. And they just keep—if you don't rotate them, they just keep going back to it and hitting it as it regrows and eventually kill it out. And the less desirable stuff comes along. So that all that helps your pasture. It helps your grass for that reason. And also you are more intensively distributing the manure, which is fertilizer, and you get a much more even spreading of that. We've not—golly it's been 10 or 15 years since I've bought chemical fertilizer. And you know, the hoof action too, you know, you've got your, your seed bank with the seeds in there that last for, you know, years and years and years and years. And as that is disturbed by the hooves you know, you get more regrowth of that. And then we follow along with the chickens behind that. And you get more manure from that, the chickens scratch in the cow manure, and that you know, that helps cut down on your fly problem. You know, they get in there and eat the eggs that the flies lay. We also rotate, rotate our pigs, you know, they're in the woods right now this time of year, but we also rotate them through the pasture and, you know, pigs, as you know, but some listeners may not, pigs will graze grass, just like cows will.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yep.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

You know, you don't have to have pigs in a small little pig sty as it were, you know, pigs are not inherently nasty. They just, unfortunately, get kept in bad spots, a lot of times.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

They also tend to really like what's under the grass more so than what's on top of it sometimes. So do you let, 'em turn over a pasture every now and then, and really work it down and destroy it and reset it?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

I don't let, 'em go too intensively. I could probably stand to let 'em do more, but I just—I tend to move the pigs through pretty fast.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

We had a paddock at dad's farm. We raised very similar pasture-raised beef in north central Indiana. And he hadn't had hogs for about 20 years. The hog market crashed in 97. That's when we got outta hogs. About four years ago, he got back into it, but pasture-raised and there was a paddock that was pretty much useless to the cattle by that point—it had been overtaken by calamus, which is a very invasive species that just keeps spreading through its roots. And so he just put the hogs on there for a solid summer, and they just destroyed the whole root system. I mean, the place looked like a mud pit, but then the next year, what came back from that seed bank was actual grass and clover and what cattle would actually eat. So it was kind of a reset button for that pasture. Yeah.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah. And that's the thing is, is using, you know, that's the whole idea. I think, the two main ideas behind regenerative ag are you're focusing on growing better grass through taking care of your soil—soil health—and using the animals as tools to that end.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

I think one of the quotes I've remembered from Joel Salatin is, "On our farm, the animals do the hard work." Yeah. Turning stuff over, doing the plowing. What's the future of Bales Farms. Talk to me. Where, where do you see this going? You've been you're the sixth generation to farm on it. What's that mean to you? And, and how important is it to think about what comes next?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

That's, you know, if, if you gotta take it with a grain of salt, because for me, especially, you know, something like that, you can kinda let it get in your head and be like, wow, that's some serious pressure. But, you know, with Marshall, I'm trying to, that's kind of how we got back into this. You know, I was touring so much that I didn't have time to farm. Didn't have time to keep animals. And once he was born, I thought, you know, I'd really love for him to have at least a little taste of what I had growing up to learn where his food comes from, have chores to do, that kind of thing. And it just kind of snowballed from there. So, you know, he, he may or may not take up the reins and, you know, come back here and farm for a living. But if he's got, you know, he will definitely have the tools he needs and the life experiences to be a success, whatever he does. And, you know, if that happens as a result of what we're doing now and where he's living and the responsibilities he has, then you know, this farm will have been a success. And I would like to think, you know, if nothing else, it'll always be here to come back and bring the grandkids and fish and, you know, whatever else. But for me personally, from a, from a next step farming thing, we just want to continue to grow and, and try to do it better. And, and we're constantly thinking how to grow the business, how to grow the brand, how to leave this place better than we found it. You know, that's a, that's a big thing I'm, I'm always researching and trying to figure out, okay, well, how's a better way to do this. What am I doing wrong? You know, we're really getting into cover crops now. And, and just a lot, you know, lots of different things. I, I definitely want it to keep going and to grow, but in a lot of ways, if it doesn't do anything more than what it's done now, it's, it's still a success to me.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yeah. I would agree. I think it's a raging success. I think the experience you're creating for Marshall is you can't get that anywhere else other than a farm.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

I told him the other day there's some friends of mine that we all grew up together and we were on a daily text thread together. And a couple of 'em are engineers. One of 'em is a chiropractor. And something was said, one of 'em was complaining today about some of the potential employees that they had coming in, you know, and I told this to them, but I also told it to Marshall. If I was in any kind of a position, non-agriculture, to hire somebody and a resume came across my desk from somebody that grew up on a farm, I think I'd probably hire 'em sight unseen. You know. Because they're probably already so far ahead.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yeah. They've been driving for 20 years already, so well [laughing]. We're sitting here talking about your farm and helping to share your story and your passion. And I appreciate you, you letting us know about it. What is it—how important is it to you to be able to connect directly with the people that are eating the eggs off of your farm and the beef off of your farm. And to know that you're feeding your community?

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

That's really important to us. You know, when you, when you think about it, we can't, we can't beat Walmart with price or with convenience. But it is very important. I tell people this a lot, I'm very passionate about knowing where your food comes from, whether you get your food from us or from somebody else, whether you are, you know, a customer of Market Wagon—you all make it so easy for people. You know, they just open their door on Thursday and there, it says it's so, or in Knoxville anyway, but you know, once a week you open the door and everything that you ordered is there. And so whether or not you, wherever you get your food, wherever you get it, you need to know where that food has come from. You need to know if you're if you're eating beef, or chicken, or pork, you need to know the life that the animal lived, that it is important. You need to know if you're eating a carrot, you need to know the soil that it was raised in. And I, I'm not saying you need to be organic, or you need to be, you know, one label or another because labels can be very confusing, but you need to know how the animal was raised, how the plant was raised because it's important. And, you know, I heard you talking with I think it was Nate [Parks], a few podcasts ago about—that it takes time and it takes money to invest in doing it the right way. And so sometimes, yeah, it's a little bit more expensive at the front end, but it's so much better for you that you're saving money throughout the process. And that's important. And you don't get that if you go to Walmart and buy your eggs, you know, but if, but Marshall's customers who buy his eggs, you know, they can see him. And they can see him on social media and he loves his chickens. And sometimes, especially when we used to go and help him a little bit, some people would get a little side-ways...

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

I'd be trying to get him, you know, I'd be out there humping it and trying to get the paddock set up and all this. And I'm like, where is Marshall? What is he doing? And I'd look over and he'd be, have a chicken up hugging and kissing, all that stuff. [Laughter]

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

But, you know, that's, that's important. And you, it should be that way. It should be that way that the farmer is taking steps to ensure that that animal is raised the way that God intended that animal to be raised. And that we're just really passionate about it. It's very important to us.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Well, as you alluded to with the fast-food comment early on, you know, it's gotten somehow or another, it's gotten so backward. I mean, there's very few things, more important to life than food, but we've gotten to where it's become just a disposable for lack of a better term. You know, nobody thinks anything about it. You know, you go through and I, you know, I get it from a financial standpoint, but that's a whole nother conversation about how it got to be that way. But, you know, I know a lot of people are like, well, why wouldn't I just go through the drive-through and get a value meal for $3?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

But there's so many, it's just, it's so frustrating for me because we do put such care and such love in raising our animals and taking care of this farm. And it's very personal to us, you know? So we, it is very important for us to, to deal with the customers one on one and let them see. And that's, you know, you know, this, this part of the business, it's all about relationships. You know, when we kind of started getting back into it more and more, I got hung up there for a while on, okay, well, people want this adjective and this descriptor and this, and, you know, they don't really care. At least our customers don't, they know us, we've, we've been at it long enough and have developed relationships so that they know us. They know how we do things and that's all they need to know. So that's gigantically important to us.

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

And they know us and they have had a relationship with us, which was the original question, sorry. But this relationship that we have built within, they know that we are transparent and authentic and trustworthy. And so when you have that relationship with people and they know, you know, they've been here, they've been on this farm. And so they've seen, oh, they've seen Marshall move that chicken tractor, or they've seen us feed the pigs. They've gotten in with us while we feed the pigs and the pigs eat from our hand and eat from their hands, or, you know, they've gone with us when we move the steers. So when you have that kind of a relationship with people, they know that they can trust you and they value that, and we value them. And so it's all about a relationship.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Wow. I couldn't have said it better. I think that your customers, you're doing your community, a service and your customers appreciate it, and they see what you're doing for 'em. How can aside from finding you on MarketWagon.com and following you there and learning about your farm and buying your products, how else can our listeners learn a little bit more about you? Follow you, find you on social media or online?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

We have a website, BalesFarmsTN.com.

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

And we're on Instagram.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

We're on Instagram @BalesFarms. We're on Facebook—Bales Farms TN, and we're on YouTube. We've got a lot of recipe videos on YouTube and different things, fun things around the farm.

Aliceson Bales (Bales Farms):

Yeah. Barry just did smash burgers for the Super Bowl.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

On your YouTube or Instagram channel. Could we hear any of Barry plucking at an upright bass by chance?

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

I've got some, yeah. I mean, I do some of the background music for our little videos. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

I thought you might. Cool. Well, it's been a pleasure being able to talk with you and connect face-to-face here and on this recording and people want to hear your story about Bales Farms and thank you so much for the care that you put into the land that you've been given to steward from six generations back. I think that's just amazing.

Barry Bales (Bales Farms):

Thanks. Thanks for having us. This has been a lot. It's been a pleasure.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon):

Yeah, it's been my pleasure. All right. Well, my guests today have been Barry and Aliceson with Bales Farms and you can learn about Bales Farms on MarketWagon.com—get those eggs and you'll keep a 14-year-old employed and happy and hens happy.

Nick Carter (Host) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO, and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. That's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Host) (00:54):

Well, my guest today is Regina "Reggie" Green. You go by Reggie, most of your life, Regina? I should assume so because the name of your company is Reggie's Creations. You are quite the chef, it looks like you started your company based on a recipe for Buckeyes. Can you tell me that story?

Reggie Green (01:14):

Yes, actually the story of how I got started is two—is actually two parts. I was working at a restaurant called Hyde Park Prime Steak House in downtown, Short North, Columbus. I had a girl that was actually transferred there. She was transferred from Cleveland and she was—it was during the holidays and she wanted to give her mother a gift of Buckeyes. And she said she can't get Buckeyes at all in Cleveland. She's been looking for somebody to do homemade ones. She said, no knock on Anthony Thomas—But she said the only ones that they really have there is Anthony Thomas, but they don't taste like homemade. They taste like processed. So she said, does anybody know anybody that can make 'em? And I said, well, you know what, if you don't mind, I'll just make 'em. I mean, how hard can they be? And I said, they don't look very hard. And she was like sure, if you want to, and I said, how many orders do you want? I said, what 12? And she said, can I get five dozen? like, oh, oh, okay, sure. I could do that. So I went home and I started making the Buckeyes and the one thing as I was making them, I was like, Buckeyes are so good. I can only have two or three because they're so rich, but they're so boring. And I said, there's nothing really to them. And I said, so I called her and I said, "Hey Tamika, do you mind if I kind of play around with the flavors a little bit?" And she said, well, what do you mean play around with them? And I said, "well, can you do me a favor and just ask your mom without telling her the surprise, what flavors does she like?" So she came back and told me oh my mom loves cookie dough. She loves coconut. She loves the Heath bars. And I was like, okay. And I said, so I started experimenting with them. And then I was—I infused like my own coconut milk into a Buckeye and I dipped it in chocolate with coconuts. And then I did a cookie dough one—I made cookies and crumbled 'em and rolled 'em around the Buckeyes. And I made six different Buckeyes. And my friend Tamika that asked for the Buckeyes as a gift, she loves coffee. So I made one with coffee infused in it. And so I gave her the regular ones and I gave her the ones that I did as an infusion, just for fun.

Reggie Green (03:42):

And she took 'em to her mother and came back and said—she walked straight up to me—she said, you have got to sell those. She said the Buckeyes were really good—but the infused ones were awesome. And after that it kind of took off. Tamika was more into my business at that time than I was, but she took my —she was, every time we worked at the restaurant, she would make me make more Buckeyes and she would give them as like little party gifts when they were done with their dinner. Like you do with a mint, but she would give one of my Buckeyes. And then they were like, where did this come from? When she gave one to Eugene Smith, that is director of athletics for Ohio State. And he had one and he put that up for trademark and licensing with Ohio State. So I was approved, but sad to say at the time, I did not believe in myself. I did not believe that I deserved that success and the recognition that I was getting and it scared me. So I kind of walked away from it. And I was like—I gave up the business. I didn't have the greatest support system at all. So I ended up walking away from it. It wasn't until 2020 that I lost my job as food and beverage manager because of COVID. And I was doing everything DoorDash, InstaCart, GrubHub, you name it—to pay my bills. And I was part of a Facebook group called Columbus jobs. And on, there was an ad from Market Wagon saying they're, looking for drivers their business is booming and it was from Lily and they said you get what called me about the ad. It said that you get paid that day. So I went. I applied, then I became a driver, and then I worked in the warehouse, and then we had the shut-in where you guys were looking for vendors. So I told Lily, Hey, I used to make Buckeyes, you know if you, if anybody during the shutdown is looking for sweets, I could at least make those. So she said, oh it, okay. So I applied, got my license. And then that's when I started as a vendor with Market Wagon. And my first week I sold nine orders. And I sat down with my fiance at the time and I said, Hey, do you mind if I open this up a little bit more be two feet in, or really take the chance in really making this business about who I am and what I do. And he was 100% behind me. And the next product I introduced was infused butters and cream cheese. And my order went from—my orders, went from nine to over 70 in one week. And then it just kept growing from there. And I went from one market to now I'm in five. So, yeah, but that's how I got started with Market Wagon.

Nick Carter (Host) (06:56):

From laid off from the food service industry to gig work, to pay the bills, to driving at this crazy little company called Market Wagon that delivers local food to making the food, to sell on Market Wagon. And now tell us where your business is today. How would you describe it?

Reggie Green (07:20):

Today? I would tell you if it was not for Market Wagon the platform that you, your company has put towards mine brings me to tears. If it was not for you exposing my passion and what I do, I don't know where I would be. And that, that is the truth. I—my passion is food. I love food. I can be in—I have been known to be in the kitchen from the time I wake up until the time I go to bed. I even have a TV in my kitchen. And food is what I am, is what I do. I did not, I was not brought up in a family where we would be in the kitchen and cooking together. I actually learned how to cook from being in restaurants. And I was very privileged to work with so many different chefs to where I got that background from them. They taught me to enhance my passion for cooking. But today—so I went in a year, I went from being a driver to Market Wagon to now being, I averaged 90 to a hundred orders in Cleveland alone for Thursdays. And I get so excited when I see reviews about my product. I get so excited when I post a new product and somebody buys it first. And so I cannot express the appreciation I have for your company. And I thank you every day.

Nick Carter (Host) (09:10):

I'm gonna go ahead and be completely honest, coming into a podcast like this. I should do all my research. I should know everything about my guests and have all have a really good profile in front of me. And I just looked up, you know, about your current company, what you sell, what your menu is and, and your presence on Market Wagon. Until you just told me this story I had no idea that your story began as one of our drivers. And you have been able to build this company, Reggie's Creations on the Market Wagon platform. It blows me away just to hear your story and I'm yeah, I'm speechless. Not a good position to be in when you're supposed to be a podcast host, but I'm speechless.

Reggie Green (09:57):

No, it's okay. but I, that is from sincere from bottom of my heart, if it was not for Market Wagon, I would not—I do not know where I would be and I thank you for letting me showcase what I'm very passionate about.

Nick Carter (Host) (10:13):

Well, I thank you for bringing that passion to Market Wagon. Our customers love to know people like you and I can't wait to share this story as far and wide as we can, because this is why people are shopping on Market Wagon. It's because they want to make a difference for Reggie, not for, you know, Jeff Bezos or something like that. They want, they wanna know where their dollars are going. And this is a clear story that when you are buying—and it's more than Buckeyes now, we'll talk about that—but when you're buying food from local artisans and chefs like you, this is just a perfect story as to why this matters. Let's talk about what you make. You mentioned the chefs that believed in you tell me a little bit, you were working at a restaurant. You've been in kitchens for a long time. You've been in the restaurant industry. What, 20 years? How, how long have you been a chef?

Reggie Green (11:09):

I've been in a restaurant since I was 16 years old. It is going to be 36 years that I've been in restaurants.

Nick Carter (Host) (11:19):

Careful. Some of, some of our listeners have the math ability to, to age you right now.

Reggie Green (11:24):

Oh, I don't mind telling my age? I actually tell people that I'm older than what I am.

Nick Carter (Host) (11:28):

36 years in the restaurant industry, but you mentioned that you weren't comfortable with the success early on that people had for your Buckeyes. You, you just didn't have that confidence. What got you over the edge? What, what helped you to form this company and then go forward and put your products out there and let people try 'em?

Reggie Green (11:47):

I think what happened is that when COVID hit 2020, I worked for so many different companies, one for over a decade. And when I had lost my position as food and beverage manager, I didn't have anything, Nick, nothing. I didn't have a 401k. I didn't have paid leave. I didn't have medical/dental. I didn't even have life insurance because my company did not provide it. All they provided me with was a lot of responsibility and ability for my talents to make that company money. And when I lost my job, I got mad. It was like, you know what? I've been, I dedicated pretty much three-fourths of my life into a food industry that I love, that I have a great passion for. And when that opportunity came as a vendor and I, when I thought about it, I'm like, what are the odds that one day I'm just looking on a Facebook page that is for a job for Market Wagon, and then less than a month that I'm there, you're looking for vendors because they can't handle the volume that's coming in. And I am able to get a hold of this opportunity. So when that happened, what clicked in me is that this is my time. This is my time to showcase what I do. I'm very, I was always very good at presenting and making and creating for so many other people that I felt at the end that I wasn't appreciated, and I wasn't valued. And that's what clicked. That was what was different from 2012 to now. And I'm not gonna stop. I'm gonna keep doing what I do, because this is my time. And I know this is my time to get what I have a passion for. That I deserve it now. And I have the support unit of my husband that I did not have that before. No, I'm, I'm gonna keep going. And I'm, I'm just getting started.

Nick Carter (Host) (14:14):

You do deserve it now, and you deserved it then, but now, you know, you deserve it now. And I'm just so proud of you. It takes, don't sell yourself short because when you were in that situation unexpectedly without a job—opportunity, is there for people who are moving, right, who are doing things. And you were looking around for every job you were looking for every opportunity. That's the reason why the opportunity presented itself before you, because you were looking and you found just the ability to come and drive for us. But as soon as the call went out and you're right, there's more demand for local food than we have supply. We're always looking for more vendors. There's so much opportunity for people who do just what you do, there's so much opportunity, but what you did was you said, okay, if there's an opportunity to sell food here, I'm gonna go do it and kudos to you. I'm just, I'm blown away by this story, Reggie, and thank you so much for sharing it. And it's not just you—you were a vendor in our Columbus, Ohio market to start with. Now. Customers can find you in a lot of the other Ohio markets, but tell me about the community that existed even within that market. Because you source fresh ingredients, right? You're not only selling food that you're producing locally, but are you building partnerships with the farmers and the food producers that are a part of that local community there?

Reggie Green (15:31):

Yes, I actually, when they are in season and even off-season, I go to a farm called Lynd Farm in Pataskala [Ohio], oddly enough that I was partnered with them—when I was a food and beverage manager, the restaurant that I worked at was in Pataskala and I went and met the family. They were our local farmers there. They grew their own pears, apples, you name it, they had it. And what was very important to me is that we locally sourced from farmers in the area to say, this is locally made and produced. I believe in having a very strong relationship with farmers and local people because, you know, you get to know who they are and where the product comes from and how it's made. And I just think people have—bring their passion into it as well. I also have—the very first, maybe month that I was with Market Wagon—I am a huge person that believes in collaboration and partnership. So one person, one vendor that I got to know a little bit more about was Dirty Girl Coffee. I did not know that it was all female and woman-owned coffee growers. They grow their own beans. They have their own shop. And I reached out to them and said, Hey, listen, I tried/bought one of your coffees—is the Columbian blend. I wanna make cookies with it. And I said, is it okay if I use your picture, your coffee actually in my picture for my Down & Dirty cookies, because I told them that I wanted to think of a name that celebrated them and who they are. And so I read up on Dirty Girl Coffee and I found out that they're from Athens [Ohio] that's all females and they, their logo is getting dirty, getting your hands down and dirty. I'm like, oh man, down and dirty coffee cookies is perfect. So I came up with that. That was my first collaboration, but I also collaborate with a company from Cincinnati who makes over 200 different types of teas. I do a pound cake in a bread pudding of the month with them that is made with one of their teas. But I also am a partner with another vendor is Witt Farms. They have been providing me with bones so I can start using that to make different prepared meals like soups. I actually use one of their bones and made a broth with it to make the pork enchiladas that I just introduced. So having that partnership to me, the bigger we are as a family, the more we're going to grow, especially if I can say, Hey, this was made from somebody else you just buy from as well. So I believe in highlighting all of us highlighting each other. So me getting locally farmed produce stuff from farmers and other artisans is extremely important to me.

Nick Carter (Host) (18:44):

Well, you're, you are a leader. You're leading because of your creations and your creativity, which customers love, they love your recipes. They love what you're inventing. It brings a delight to their tables. And so they're gonna respond to that with buying more of your stuff, you could probably save a buck. You could probably go buy some cheaper ingredients, some industrial-scale agriculture foods at large wholesalers and make a little bit more profit. But what I love about the story, Reggie, what you just told me is that you take that success that has, that you've been blessed with through Market Wagon and now you're spreading it out. You're, you're taking that and you're going to other local farmers, other local producers, and making sure that it has an impact even beyond you. And thank you for your commitment to the local food community because it's much needed, and leaders like you are vital to this success of everybody. Now, so we've touched a little bit on the menu. So we started off with Buckeyes and you were bold enough to tinker with an age old recipe. I mean, I don't Buckeyes are kind of a, a tried and true—You've got your peanut butter core and chocolate outside, and you took that and expanded it, but from candy or, you know, a sugary treat to pork [enchiladas] how do you find the time to come up with new recipes and decide, you know, how to put out there more stuff into the marketplace?

Reggie Green (20:15):

Well in the beginning, Nick, it actually had to do with my license. when I very first got started. I was only allowed to do confections. I was only allowed to do candy, cookies, cakes. And I am not gonna sit here and even begin to try to tell you that I enjoy baking. I do not. I am not a baker. I am a, I am a cook. I am a cook. And only because baking is so unforgiving, it's like if you accidentally mix baking soda instead of baking powder, you have a huge mess. And with cooking, you have so much more freedom. So what I had to do is retrain myself when I only in the begin, when I can only, they said, no, no, no, Reggie, you can only do this because your license only allows you to do this.

Reggie Green (21:12):

And I'm like, okay, so I can only make this, this and this. So I'm like, okay, where, when can I go to this next step? And they said, now you have to get your home bakery license. Now you can make cheesecakes and you can do bread puddings and you do all this other stuff. And actually a funny story is that I got in trouble one time with the Department of Agriculture, because I thought making baked goods—as long as it's in a pie shell, I can do anything with it as long as it's in a pie shell. And so the first thing that I made is—I said, I wanna make something savory. So I made a Galette, which is—I make my own pie dough , but I add sauteed spinach, artichoke hearts. I caramelized my own onions and I put it into this pie shell.

Reggie Green (22:05):

Well, the Department of Agriculture saw it on Market Wagon and they came to visit me and they said, Reggie, you can't make that. And I was like, why? It's in a pie shell. They said, cause your home bakery license, won't let you do that. Fine! So what can I, what do I need in order to be able to make it? So they said you have to be in a commercial kitchen. So once I went to a commercial kitchen, now I'm in a commissary and they, I said, so what can I do? They said, you can do whatever you want. And I said, fine. So that's when I started [to] open up the flood gates. I said, so since I'm allowed to do everything, I am going to start doing everything. I am going to do what I love and that's cook and I'm gonna start introducing meals, side dishes, you name it, I'm going to really show what my what creations mean. So I started to a side and I did test the waters. Because I know in the beginning, people probably just know me as doing sweets. So the first thing I did was introduce a side dish and that was mac and cheese. And I did mac and cheese—I did truffle mac and cheese and I did mac and cheese with bacon. And then I see how those waters tested and those, those exploded. I sold so many. So then I introduced broccoli au gratin and then a real, a recipe that I created about five years ago was potatoes au Guinness. And that is when I make a scalloped potato, but it's like potatoes au gratin, but I use—I make a Guinness cheese. So I just let my imagination go as far—it was in stages. So if you saw me in the beginning, I only did sweets. That's only because my license, well only let me do that. But now that my license is like, you can do whatever you want. I'm taking that full advantage.

Nick Carter (Host) (24:10):

Believe me, I know the, the difficulties of regulation, the rules kind of constrain what you can do. It's amazing that you, you understood the restrictions, right? And the, and just work for them, the limitations to get going and off the ground. But just pressed it ahead and congrats to you. So what's the favorite thing that you make now? What, what do you, if you had a your pick ticket, which is what for our listeners, that's what tells Reggie what she needs to make, what people have ordered each week. If you look at your pick ticket, what's the most exciting thing for you to see? Oh, good. I get to go make this. What do you like?

Reggie Green (24:42):

The one thing I really do like to make is my bread pudding. I really like making that because it is so many different possibilities that you can get with that. When I, actually had where I would—I emailed all my followers and I told them let's have a little contest. I discovered a place called Church Hill Fine Teas from—through the farmer's market. I did my first farmer's market last year in May. And when I was there, the coffee shop that had asked me to be a part of it, they sold Churchill Teas. Well, I didn't know who that was. And I found out that they were out of Cincinnati. That is actually 20 minutes away from the hub. So I went to visit them and they had over 200 different teas—of teas I've never even known that you can make a flavor with that. I mean, they even have a tea called a Findlay Market, that's a bloody mary. And I was like, oh no, we're we gotta, I said, I have to take full advantage and make some bread puttings out of these. So every month I told my followers, if you come up with suggestions of, if you go on churchillsteas.com and you look to see what kind of teas they have, you suggest one that you think will make a, a really delicious, unique bread pudding. If I like that suggestion for the month, I will make the bread pudding. I'll let you name it and I'll give you a $20 discount code for—and then you don't have to buy for me—I said, you can buy from anybody and I'll give you a bread pudding, so you can try your own creation. And that is so much fun for me to make, because I get really interesting—I got one lady that suggested the white wedding and said, you should call it the rebel yell. And it was, it's so many suggestions coming in. And I think the reason why I really love making a bread, one is fun to make, to see all the different things that could come together. Like this month is carrot cake bread pudding. And I make a cream cheese caramel sauce with it, but to see somebody get to actually name it and come up with a name for it. And there I, and the reason why the bread pudding is so much is my favorite is because that's the one I feel the most connected to customers with. Because they're involved in it and they get so excited. Like, did I win? Did I win? And I'm like not this month, but next month, you know, you never know. I said, keep the suggestions coming. So hands down, that's my favorite one to make.

Nick Carter (Host) (27:39):

That's genius. I, I just I'm blown away. So I wanna talk about this for a quick minute because a lot of our customers and, and even some of the vendors on Market Wagon who are listening to this, might not be aware of what you're talking about, where you are able to connect directly with the customers on Market Wagon. They're your customers, Market Wagon is a marketplace where customers are finding you, but you're really leaning into that—you've been able to directly message and chat and engage with the customers that you have on the Market Wagon platform. They're getting back to you, their ideas for recipes. What's that mean to you to be able to have a direct connection to the folks that are eating your food around their table every week?

Reggie Green (28:20):

There is nothing—there's nothing like it. I get a few—I don't, I hate to say—I don't like calling them followers. That is, I like calling them supporters because without their support, I would not be here. I can make all the greatest food in the world, but if they're not there to support me and buy the products, I don't exist. So for me, I've had conversations with supporters that told me that I introduced—there was one lady that told me that I had made a I used to, I don't make it anymore, but it's I, I do, but only for her, I, I introduced a chocolate silk pie about eight months ago. And it was her—Deborah—It was her mother's favorite and her mother was ill. And she told me that...I'm sorry, I'm trying not to cry. But she told me that her mom, when she got it, started crying because she remembered having that. And it was her favorite pie. So even though I do not have that anymore on the website, I still send it to Debbie and I don't have her pay for that. It's like, you give it to your mother. And they mean the world to me. I appreciate it every day, what they do. You know, I had somebody say, well, what about bad reviews? I'm like, you know what? A bad review is actually a good review because I learned from it. I read to see what they say and I fix it. So, and with that, I would even have somebody—I've had so many supporters reach out to me and say, "Hey. I got this product and it was smashed, or it was broke, or it was something else like that. And if they're local, I'm getting in my car and I'm taking it to them—a new one. It's like, no, did you, what? Your stuff was damaged? I'll be there in like 15 minutes to give you your stuff. Even if it was an hour away, I'm going to take it because I can only imagine the expression on their face that they're looking forward to that tote and all the little goodies inside of it. And to open it up and see it smashed, it must have been like, oh man, that's heartbreaking. So if I can fix it by getting in my car and taking a new one, so be it. Because like I said, without you introducing Market Wagon, and without them being there to support, not just me, but all the other vendors, is—it, you can't compare that. The fact that I'm able to, I said, and Nick, I actually mentioned it to Jeremy. That I would think it would be so cool—We can't do it now because it cause of COVID—I said, but I always thought that it would be really cool if we had a "Meet The Vendor" event, to where if we had it to where it was a Columbus, you and it could be during the summer one time during the summer to where we are there, and they're able to buy the product with us face to face. And I'm able to meet my—Debbie and I'm able to meet Amber and I'm able to meet them face to face. I think that will be such a cool event to make it more of a community of Market Wagon. But I, the, the fact that I can talk to 'em and, and communicate with them one on one is—I love that. That's like one of the best parts of Market Wagon.

Nick Carter (Host) (32:20):

Well, and thank you for engaging with it because it's so important, right? The customers love to hear from you as you've already figured out. They wanna know what you're up to. So as we're running outta time here, just as we close, I wanna give you an opportunity to tell our listeners, aside from on Market Wagon.com, where they can look up Reggie's Creations, and they can find you there. And they can, I won't say follow. They can become a supporter of what you do. And I think anybody listening to this podcast is gonna be doing that if they haven't already, because your story is just amazing. And, and you have a magnetic or just an energizing personality. I've just enjoyed every bit of this conversation, but how else can somebody connect with you? Are you on social media? Are you, do you have any brick-and-mortar locations? How else can we get to know you?

Reggie Green (33:05):

I started Door Dash last Sunday, and we are gonna start a couple Sundays, but anybody that is locally in Columbus, you can find me on Door Dash. Every Sunday we start serving breakfast from 6:30 to 11 a.m. And it is pretty cool because there's some items on there we don't sell on Market Wagon. And we also do local deliveries on Saturday only. And that is—you can order online ReggiesCreations.com.

Nick Carter (Host) (33:39):

Awesome. Well, Reggie, this has been an absolute delight and I'm so grateful for you to take the time here, but it's also just the time that you spend to engage with customers and to make every single one of them smile. It's amazing and I'm so glad to hear the success that you're having with your kitchen.

Reggie Green (33:58):

Oh, thank you. I appreciate it, Nick. Thank you again for allowing, for letting me be a part of the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Nick Carter (Host) (34:08):

My guest today, again, has been Reggie Green, with Reggie's Creations, and you can find her amazing foods on Market Wagon.com. Thanks for listening.

Nick Carter (Host) (34:25):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, CastBox, Pod Chaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky, food scientist and founder of 8 Track Foods, joins host Nick Carter to discuss plant-based foods, sustainability, giving back to help the planet, and more on this episode of More Than A Mile.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and CEO, and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. That's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:53):

Welcome to More Than A Mile. My guest today is Maggie Seng Sadowski and I am really excited to talk about food because I am here with a leading expert in food. So I'm gonna brag a little bit. Maggie, say hi.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (01:09):

Hi, how are you doing today, Nick?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:11):

I'm doing great. For those of you who don't know, Maggie's a vendor on Market Wagon, 8 Track Foods, and it's a line of canned beans, which we'll talk about how a leading food scientist got into a canned bean company. But you have probably eaten something created by Maggie in the past because over a hundred different products on the market today, from other food companies, involve inventions or innovations that Maggie's worked on. And then a couple of years ago, she spun off her own plant-based food company. And we're here to talk about that. So Maggie, let's just start with the beginning. How did you get involved in food science? When did you realize, I want to invent things that people eat?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (01:53):

Well, it's kind of a tricky path, but it starts with, I was always really curious as a child putting things together and making potions in the backyard. And it led me to a love of chemistry. And I ended up going to Ohio State for food, I mean, for chemistry, and then along the path found food science, and it really kind of solidified the why of how things work in food. So why does your toast brown? Why does, you know, cheese melt? All of those things just became incredibly fascinating to me. And so it married kind of this love of food and this love of actually, hands-on creating things and applied chemistry. So that's really where it started.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:37):

So it started in a kitchen. [Do] you love to cook?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (02:40):

I do love to cook, but I'll just, I like to say, I like to watch other people cook too. So I -- tinkering in the kitchen. I'm probably just a little bit more precision-based in that regard.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:51):

That's like the difference between baking and cooking, right? Baking is chemistry and cooking is art.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (02:56):

Exactly.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:57):

That's what I've always thought.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (02:58):

Yeah. It's so true.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:00):

So you started off in chemistry at The Ohio State University, ended up in food science. So tell me a little, so 8 Track Foods is the name of your business. And I don't think it, the title was modeled after an antiquated music delivery technology. Tell me about what 8 means.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (03:20):

No. So 8 Track Foods was really this idea that I wanted to kind of turn back the clock to a time where people, you know, gathered around the table and we were more community based and we cooked and we didn't focus so heavily on this like single-serve convenience. Everything has to be high-impact flavor. And so I felt like the food system was off track. And so I started to think about the name and decided that 8 Track Foods really worked because this 8 represented the image and the idea that I wanted to create, which was this infinite loop of sustainability. So it's one thing to focus only on the food that we create. And as a food scientist and product formulator, everyone's always like, I want it non-GMO. I want it organic. I want it plant-based. I want clean ingredients, but we, I put so much care into the food that we just eat that at the end, the day that product would be wrapped in, you know, heavily packaged, extremely plastic clamshells, you know, vacuum sealed and it kind of offset the impact that we're trying to, you know, accomplish by, you know, making an impact around climate change.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (04:40):

So the 8 Track Foods -- it's really the 8 is that infinite symbol of everything we do kind of feeds back into itself from the product, the packaging to how we source it, to how we produce it. And even the beans give nitrogen back into the soil, and our steel cans are infinitely recyclable because they're magnetic and they get picked up and most waste streams and can be reproduced over and over again, thus creating less waste.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:09):

Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think it's amazing that you've zeroed in on that -- that steel is the easiest product to recycle, right. Because of the magnetism of it as opposed to using plastics or other materials. So was that hard for you to find a way to use that packaging? Was that a difficult challenge when you were starting your company, if you realized steel's where you wanted to go, was that difficult?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (05:32):

I would say it wasn't necessarily a difficult challenge in getting the steel. I think communicating the benefits of steel is sometimes hard and helping consumers understand that there's a true value in using canned goods...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:50):

[Do] you think some customers have an impression of what canned goods mean? Maybe it seems like -- from a post-war era and maybe we've moved beyond that, but you want to let people know that it's the future, not the past.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (06:04):

Yeah. I mean, there's so much value in [it] and there's so much food science in a can of beans, you know, the amount of technology that goes into it. I mean, it really changed our food system for everyone.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (06:17):

I mean, I can piggyback on that. I remember learning about, I don't know if this is it just kind of a little bit of lore and myth or if this is historical, but it seems like we really won the war in Europe because we could keep our boys fed on the front line because of the innovations of food canning and what that allowed our military to be able to do. And then we kind of rolled that out into the American food system after World War II. Is that accurate?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (06:44):

That's so true. I mean, there's so much that we have been able to accomplish because of canned goods and just the process behind, you know, low acid and high acid foods and keeping our food supply, you know, safe longer. And, you know, a lot of that in driving people back to the pantry, it keeps our food, you know, collectively safe for a longer period of time, thus reducing food waste. And, you know, the more we can bring people back to the pantry, I always like to equate it to you can cook fresh meals from your pantry, and we as consumers think of cans as processed and heavily processed, but they're not necessarily. Like our beans are just organic beans, water, and sea salt. And if you think about it as cooking fresh meals -- maybe spaghetti, you pull out your dried pasta and your jar of sauce and you cook them, and all of a sudden you've made dinner. You've created this beautiful, fresh dinner. And so that's the kind of messaging that I hope to create around 8 Track Foods and driving people back to the pantry and hoping that they can cook more fresh meals with -- starting with our cans of beans.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (07:54):

Well, that's really cool. So we've got in, we've got the idea of infinity in the name, and we're gonna talk a little bit about the soils and what you alluded to with nitrogen and beans. And, but also, I guess, a little undertone of harkening back to an older era of the 8 track, right? People sitting down for dinner, eating a little slower pace of life, where it doesn't require single-use, throw away the packaging for every single meal, peel and eat and throw it away, peel and eat and throw it away. So that's really cool. So tell me about beans. First of all, why beans, why did you start with beans?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (08:30):

So I think in our nation, we've really commoditized a lot of the pantry staples and products that we want to use. Those and beans are inherently this incredible powerhouse of a food. And in our society, we really just think of them as kind of the magical fruit and, you know, they have a bad rap. But when you look at what they can provide on so many levels, it's amazing. And as more consumers kind of go back to reducing meat consumption or, you know, giving up meat for a day, maybe flexitarian or "Meatless Mondays," I felt like beans were inherently the place to start around whole food, plant-based diets. And that's really what led me to start with beans. My background is in plant-based formulation, and I've done a lot of work in creating meat alternatives, like chicken nuggets, or, you know, burgers that bleed. But in reality, I think when we talk about plant-based diets, we've forgotten that whole food part of it. And that's really where beans play a critical role and their source. You know, I mean, the U.S. is a powerhouse for bean production and that's really coming back to that.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:53):

So one of the things that a lot of our listeners care deeply about is where their food comes from. So if, can you share a little bit about where are your beans sourced from and how did you go about finding farmers to grow beans for you?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (10:06):

So, yeah, I mean, looking around where like the best regions where things are grown, our black beans and dark red kidney beans, the Michigan area is really, you know, up in the upper peninsula is a powerhouse for growing those. And knowing that we have to, you know, manage our supply chain and we saw a lot of that working with, you know, co-ops was the best option for us. Making sure that those farmers feeding into the co-ops were the best source for our products.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (10:36):

So you work with an organic co-op, is that right, from Northern Michigan? [I'm] sprinkling in a little farmer knowledge that I don't know, this may have factored in, but Northern Michigan -- I'm a big believer in using the land for what the land is the best for. Monoculture is so ridiculous because it takes, you know, a one size fits all agriculture approach, and we go do it everywhere in the U.S., but North Michigan has a much shorter growing season. So some of the longer season grains like corn, which America is addicted to corn, we're gonna have a harder time getting a good crop in Northern Michigan because they have a shorter growing season, but it's perfect for beans and beans are much less abusive to the soil as well. So I think it's really neat that you've found that simpatico relationship there. So, tell me what the organic label means to you? As a food scientist, how do you feel about the organic label and obviously you chose to source organically? So you're a certified organic product. Tell me why?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (11:30):

So when I first started in the food industry, organic wasn't really government certified. And so I do understand kind of the detriment for smaller farmers and what that, you know, means in the, in the certification process and how lengthy it is and how it costs a lot of money. But now that we're, you know, a good 20 years into the USDA organic symbol, I feel like we've sort of pushed away from its value in some respects. So you see a lot more products right now just being like non-GMO or non-GMO project verified. And it seems to hold that same weight as organic, but the farming practices around organic are kind of lost in that mix. So it's not just that organic is non-GMO, it's that organic, you know, we're caring about the soil, we're caring about the whole farming process. And so for me, it's really important that it carries that label so that we can communicate to our consumers, that our farmers are putting in that extra level of care to the soil. It's not just, you know, putting a non-GMO claim on a bean. It is important for me to carry it. It isn't on the front of our can, but we do have it.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (12:38):

It's not on the front of your can, but you guys have a certified organic. Well, I think it's very valuable. We love that we've got certified organic producers on Market Wagon, and we have also those who, who can't get over that hurdle. You've found a group of farmers who, it sounds like not only carry the stamp, but also represent the true values that began the organic movement all the way back in the sixties and seventies with the Rodale Institute and original pioneers like that. So that's great. That's great. The care for the soil, I think is something that -- it always warms my heart. That's what matters the most.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (13:12):

It is. I mean, we're not going to have, I mean, we have to feed a lot of people. You're supposed to be 9.8 billion people by 2050. And so, you know, the more ways that we can figure out how to increase, you know, the land production and our packaging and our food, it all plays into this giant ecosystem to create the solution.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (13:32):

Yeah, well, so let's talk about that. Sustainability is another, is a key thing. We talked already about the recyclability of your packaging and this whole infinite loop feedback system. Right. So what are the challenges in today's business world of creating a truly sustainable product and business, as you have?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (13:53):

Yeah, I think a lot of it comes from educated consumers. We have a lot of, especially around packaging, there's a lot of miscommunication. I think sometimes we look at a product and it's got all the flashy bulbs and it's saying non-GMO, no artificial ingredients. And so you're seeing all the, the flash, but then that's usually covering up some of less sustainable practices that are going on. And especially with packaging. I mean, there are so many things that consumers think are recyclable, that they aren't at all. Like for us in canned beans, everyone's like, oh, let's do pouch beans, but pouch beans, you know, are actually produced in a non-recyclable material. And so we think it's good for the environment and people understand that they think just because it has less waste that maybe it's less, so sustainability plays a heavy part in what we do, but I don't think people think about food as much as I do and how it's grown, how it's sourced and all the care. So explaining all of those little details that we've tried to accomplish to make this the most sustainable product is what's hard to differentiate ourselves, quote "on the shelf." You know, how, how did somebody know that right away?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (15:16):

Well, we are here to help be a voice for you and tell your story. Connect you directly with consumers so they can understand more [about] what you do. Has it, have you found that customers on Market Wagon have engaged or, you know, you've been able to get your message out so that people really understand more about what 8 Track [Foods] is about and how sustainable the food is by having that direct connection with your customers?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (15:40):

Absolutely. We love Market Wagon. What you've built is phenomenal, knowing that we can connect with our consumers is primarily the reason I started this was to bring back community. You can create products for the world, but having those customer connections, knowing that food is, you know, we're all food experts, we all inherently put, you know, this into our bodies and it's really important. So Market Wagon has allowed us to engage with our consumers, you know, right away. You know, if they ask a question, we can be responsive, we can tell our story in unique ways. And the other part of it too, is just, you know, connecting with other vendors and feeling like we're all in this together, rather than this is just, "what's your competitive set? Who are you trying to destroy?" Where it's more like let's all work together to create this movement towards a sustainable food system rather than I'm gonna win and how I'm gonna have the most money. And so that's truly the value of Market Wagon.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:47):

Well, that's, that's great. I mean, it sounds like both you and I have a background in grocery, in very different ways, but I can remember just the zero-sum game mentality of grocery that if I was gonna get shelf space, it meant somebody else didn't. And that's just not the way that it works on Market Wagon, which has been, which was a mission of mine from the beginning, you know, is to kind of eliminate some of that zero-sum game mentality. It's a huge market out there for food and local producers right now just have a lot of blue sky ahead.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (17:14):

I absolutely agree with that. Like, there is just a tremendous -- you know, even when I started, like the natural food industry was small and it was still, you know, independent grocers and people, you know, pushing their carts, you know, their strollers through the stores and, and we've lost that element of natural food industry. And I really feel like we're, we're starting to kind of circle back and go back to what it really means to have a natural food community.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (17:42):

We love that we get to build that community with you on Market Wagon. So Maggie, one of the things I wanna touch on here, because you've talked so much about sustainability, and I don't know if a lot of our listeners know, you are a proud supporter of a nonprofit called CleanHub. And I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell me and everybody listening a little bit more about that.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (18:04):

Yeah. So CleanHub, we really wanted to focus on -- it's one thing to have a sustainable product, but there's a lot of plastics being dumped into our oceans. We only recycle about 9% of the plastics -- 91% of plastic ends up in our oceans. And by partnering with CleanHub, we wanted to make sure we weren't just saying we didn't -- our messaging is plastic sucks, but we wanted to make sure that we made a social impact as well. And so we partnered with CleanHub who works with an all-female-led recycling organization, Tridi, to collect that waste and process it in a way that we can eliminate it from our oceans. Because we have these giant plastic barges floating around our oceans and CleanHub has been able to track that clean-up amount. And so it's very precise and a portion of our proceeds goes back to eliminating that plastic. And so far we've been able to fund over a ton of plastic, clean up from our ocean and so offsetting any plastic that we would ever create. And it's a great organization to start with.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (19:17):

Maggie. I, I thank you so much for the time we spent here. I, I wanna make one observation as we've talked. You, you mentioned earlier, you know that you're not a big fan of elimination diets. When we were talking about meat, we've talked about plant-based foods in this entire time, you've not talked about any negativity about protein farmers, animal protein. And then as we talk about plastics you're focused in on the positives of steel and of recycling, but recognizing we're gonna have plastics, how do we do it positively? I think what I really appreciate about this conversation and about your messages, it's so positive about the things that we should be doing rather than simply villainizing things we feel like we should not be doing. And, and I just wanna encourage you. That's an attractive message. And it's refreshing to talk to somebody in plant-based foods that have not cast someone like me, who raises beef and pork and chicken, as a villain. And I think that going back to your conversation about just this community that we have among the producers of Market Wagon that we're in this together. I think that's so key and I hope our listeners appreciate that as well.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (20:28):

That really warms my heart to hear, but I do think that there's a sliding scale. You know, there's people that produce meat ethically, there's people that produce meat unethically. And I think it's not just about what we don't do. We have to, you know, it's too much to try to do one thing, but if you, you could make one positive change, then we can all drive towards a greater goal.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (20:53):

We're in violent agreement about that. There is a right, and a wrong way to raise animal proteins, for sure. I just love the message of doing the positive things, not simply the negative message and I think that we could all learn a lot from that. So thanks for sharing a little bit about CleanHub. I think that's really interesting. I just want to be able to wrap up with giving you the opportunity, in addition to finding 8 Track Foods on Market Wagon, customers can find 8 Track Foods, follow you and get updates from you on our platform. Where else are they able to connect with you? How else can they find 8 Track Foods out there in the marketplace?

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (21:27):

Yeah. So you can check out our website at 8trackfoods.com or we have a pretty strong -- we have a strong social media presence on Instagram, and you can follow us for recipes there and some cool food science tips and things like that.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (21:42):

That's fantastic. So if you're looking for ways to reintroduce more plant-based proteins into your diet, and you want to learn from one of the world's leading experts on how to do it. 8TrackFoods.com and 8 Track Foods on social media, and also on Market Wagon. Maggie, this has been a delightful conversation. Thanks for joining me today.

Maggie Seng Sadowsky (8 Track Foods) (22:02):

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (22:10):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, CastBox, PodChaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

Michael Kilpatrick, of ThrivingFarmerPodcast.com and GrowingFarmers.com, joins host Nick Carter to discuss farming, the organic label, and the dos and don'ts of starting your own farm.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and the CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. One critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:54):

Welcome to the More Than A Mile podcast. My guest today is Michael Kilpatrick, and this is a great way for me to return a favor because I was invited to be a guest on Michael's podcast a few months ago -- the Thriving Farmer podcast. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (01:08):

Hey, thanks for having me.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:09):

Yeah, thanks for coming. So tell me a little bit about how you got into farming to begin with. Did you grow up as a farmer? Are you new to it?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (01:19):

Yes, so I mean, like I've been always growing things like my parents have pictures when we were six years old in St. Louis with now some very, very poor, anemic tomato plants growing up the side of our condo. But then we moved to the Springfield, Massachusetts area, and my dad started a garden with us, you know. He started it cause he worked full time and wanted something that he could do with us in the evenings when he came home. So we had very sandy soil, which meant that things didn't really grow super well, but he brought in compost and got books. I remember the kid's Victory Garden book, which was one of the mainstays that we had. And actually my wife a couple of years ago got me a copy because it's really hard to find now, as a Christmas present.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (02:02):

So I've got a copy of one of those that book again. But we started gardening and the first year I want to grow cucumbers and carrots and obviously cucumbers are up within 24 hours pretty much, but carrots take like 10 to 15 days. And so we didn't think we were gonna get any, we tilled them under then like two months later we wondered what this weed was in the garden and it was the carrots. So yeah, we kind of started around with the kind of roundabout way with the gardening. And then when we moved to upstate New York in '99 we kind of really started diving a lot more. And then by 2004 we were doing it pretty much full time and it kinda grew from there.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:39):

Wow. And now you're in the Southwest Ohio area. Is your, is your dad still involved in the farm operation with you?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (02:47):

Yeah. No, my parents actually, so we left New York in 2015. Our company kind of, we kind of leased out the company, moved to Ohio to be with my wife's family. So my parents ended up staying in New York for a couple more years with the land and they weren't doing any active farming. They actually now live in Lynchburg, Virginia area and my mom actually has quite the garden down there -- but just for her own consumption. But we moved, we shut down that first farm to be near my wife's family. And then our current farm kind of ramped back up summer of 2021. So basically the summer, I mean, we were, we started boots on the ground last year, but a lot of it was infrastructure. But you know, between those, we always were growing something we know there was something, not something was always growing, you know, but it really the scale back to commercial farm with a, you know, a payroll and all of that kind of started again this year.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:44):

Very exciting. And you're also very active in just educating other farmers. I want to talk a little bit about your Thriving Farmer podcast and summits. What are some of the most interesting things that you've learned during conversations with the guests on your podcast?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (04:00):

Yeah, I think the big, a huge aspect of it is there's just not one way right way to farm. There's so many versions out there. You know, again, I come back from a very regenerative organic version of farming. So, we like to see soil, things grown in soil and some of the podcast guests I've had, let's say like Elaine Ingram and you know, she just talks so much detail about the importance of the soil and just like the microbiology and stuff that's going along with with all of that. But I think the thing with that is, is like, you know, we've interviewed again, hydroponic, we've interviewed animal farmers, we've interviewed value added people. We've been interviewed so many different people, but I've obviously through all of that comes these themes. Okay. And so the themes are one, one is you have to treat your farm like a business. If you don't, you're going to go bankrupt or you're just not going to know your numbers, not make a lot of money. And, and, you know, that's something that we are factitious about is we really, really deep dive into, you know, we know the numbers on all of our crops and we still grow some that don't quite make as much money cause you kind of have to, the customer looks for that. But I mean, I can tell you that cucumbers is one of our bigger moneymakers on the farm.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:13):

What are some of the things that you grow because the customer loves it that's just not really profitable for a farmer?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (05:18):

Yeah. That would be a sweet corn and strawberries. I mean, sweet corn, we really only did a little tiny bit this year just to kind of play around a little bit with it. Again for our farm stand, we bring it in from a couple of local folks. But strawberries again, we will not outsource that. That is something that we are very, very picky about--the varieties, the soil, when we plant them, we spent a small fortune this year on tips bringing those in, and then we root them in the greenhouse in September. And then they get planted the end of September, and then they go into the winter, and then we'll start doing the whole row cover dance. Starting at the first of, actually the last week of March, for literally three to four weeks. There's a row cover dance: on, off, on, off, trying to protect the blooms from the frost, but also allow the bees to pollinate.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (06:08):

But we're rewarded with a strawberry crop that's 10 days earlier than the competition. And the barriers are literally -- they're your grandma's berries, as people like to say, when they come. You know, they they'll buy two pints, they'll go sit in their car, they'll take one berry -- you can watch them -- we've got video footage of this, because we have video footage around the farm. But it was just funny, one day I was watching it, they took one berry and then they ate the rest of the pint. Then they got back out of their car and came back and bought four more pints. So, you know, that's, that's the kind of the, the quality we're looking for. There's just, you know, pull those customers back. And again, and again.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (06:43):

Yeah, these are not the same strawberries that you pick up at the grocery store.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (06:45):

No, no, they're not California strawberries that get shipped 3000 miles that are picked [when they are] white and the flavor is just not there. They get a little strawberry flavor, but there's not the juice. There's not the sweetness. There's not the melt in your mouth -- you know, it stains. Because those strawberries really won't stay in you and our strawberries do. And I think that's something important you gotta think about when it's really fresh. It's really incredible. Then there's going to be that, you know, that, that lasting effect.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (07:13):

Yeah. Sweet corn is another interesting one. We grow a lot of sweet corn too, but just like you said, it's, it's the least amount of dollars per square foot. How big is your farm there, Michael?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (07:22):

So we've got eight acres. We're an urban farm. So on one side it is train tracks and on two other sides it's houses. And then the fourth side is route 123 or Central Avenue, which our farm is named for. So yeah, we can't expand, although I did have conversation with today with someone who has got another acre there's that they are, you know, we're going to start talks about just giving us a little bit more, basically land to kind of work with. So but you know, I think going back to that aspect of, you know, the sweet corn, I mean like obviously your plant populations keep going up. So I think it used to be like 18,000, now we're about 24,000 plants to the acre. And, and the prices starting to go up, but consumers are willing to pay a lot more. I think that is one of the interesting things in the last couple of years is obviously you have those people, which, you know, $4 a dozen is all they're going to ever spend and they complain otherwise, but we were for a while, there selling a dollar an ear and people were not complaining. They were very willing to pay a price premium for an organic ear of corn.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (08:27):

No, you're right. The population has gone up we've we've tried the 20 to 24,000 population count. But what I've discovered is the ears are just much smaller and you end up with smaller ears and some customers pick through them or pick around them, because they're looking for, they have an expectation of a good 10 inch long ear that you can only get if you keep your populations down. And so it's an interesting calculus.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (08:48):

Yes. And so, but to the new consumer does the new consumer look for an 11 inch ear or is that someone, who again is again the...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (08:57):

...is an old farm boy like me...

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (09:00):

Or, the 60 year old woman. We like to, I like, we like to say, okay, the only customers we've ever had problems with, the only ones that complain, are a 60 year old woman, unfortunately. I don't know why that is? I think that's just like they were stuck in that era of, you know, having to really, really be careful of every single penny and so that's why they're, and I said like, we're not, you know, we're not 1950s prices anymore. In 1965 does again, inflation has gotten the last year, inflation has skyrocketed. And so just for us, you know, we've had to raise prices throughout the year, just as we're like watching our supplies go up. And like our cost of shipping literally in the last month went up 30%. So yeah, it's, it's kind of scary on one aspect and just the aspect of how to communicate this to our customers and just say, "Hey, shipping has gone up 25%. We have to be able to start covering that."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:49):

And you know, speaking of what the consumer is looking for, by the way, no offense to any 60 year old women who may be listening.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (09:58):

Yes, exactly. I'm not, I'm not, yeah. I'm not trying to point that. I'm just trying to say that seems to be that demographic. And again, to that point though, Nick, we're very, very careful and you have to be as know who those avatars to those ideal customers are. And again, we know the four or five people that are really good for our business and we need to be very careful to attract. And the people that, Hey, they're not, they're not our customer and that's fine. Again, those people, I'm not calling them out to say, I don't want the shop. They want to shop with us. That's fine. We can't cater to them. We will send them down the road to where it's the fruit stand. Now again, I'd like to say, you know, we're a farm stand, they're a fruit stand and where a fruit stand is where they're buying in from the local, you know, six states and, you know, offering that. And that's fine. Again, that's just where they are going to find the best place to shop. And our clientele is just going to be a little bit different.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (10:52):

Let's talk about, what's different about your farm because, I mean, I know that there's a lot. How you grow? And one of the first questions I have is are you, do you have the little USDA circle? Are you "organic," quote, unquote?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (11:04):

Yeah, not yet. I mean, there's obviously like all sorts of like good and bad around that. Obviously over the last decade, the USDA certified organic label has been like just threshed and just, basically, destroyed because they now allow hydroponics. Yeah. Yeah. They allow industrial organic with 24,000 cow dairy. You know, that's the kind of stuff where like, okay, no, we're not, that's not organic. And that's where I love the work that some of the regenerative folks are doing. The real organic folks are doing. They're doing some amazing work to kind of bring back the standards. We are not certified organic yet because we can't because our farm is too young. So literally 24 months ago they were pulling corn off our farm. And so we still have another year to go before we can get that certification. I mean, we could have certified our greenhouses, for like our transplants and stuff. We decided just to wait until we could do everything at once.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (11:59):

And just to educate any new listeners who are not really familiar with this. The certified organic label requires -- is it three years...

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (12:06):

Yes. 36 months.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (12:07):

...from the last time any kind of non-organic management had been taking place on the, on the land. So six years was in row crop from some row crop farmer who was certainly not organic as early as two years ago. It's just not available to you yet.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (12:21):

Yeah. So basically in 20 -- let's say 2019 -- we've got in 2019 in June, they sprayed 11 different herbicides trying to keep up with the weeds. So yeah, that's not great. So when we came together to really do a good job of putting lots of cover crops and lots of you know, slurries and stuff like beneficial microbe slurries to try to bring back the life to that. And we have, I mean, soil is looking really good. But yeah, I mean, so what we would say is we're regenerative. So lots of composts, we're using lots of prebiotics, mulches we are bringing in habitat strips for the beneficials. So again, we're not, you know, not, you know, it's not a wall to wall, just cropping, there's strips of willows and elderberries, and we're doing mushrooms in the woods. So again, we're trying to build this ecosystem here and it's really cool, Nick, because over the last 18 months we've watched the life come back. We now have regular hawks that hangout because we brought back the mice and the rabbits. We now have songbirds. I mean, you walk out in the evening, it's literally a cacophony of just tweeting and the music of the birds. So bats are back now. That's amazing to see too -- coming after the mosquitoes. So again, that aspect I feel like is what organic is truly about. And you know, not just this little circle as you called it earlier.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (13:41):

Yeah. Well, I mean, congratulations, and thank you for the way that you restored the land. I, I think that you deserve a lot of credit for that. We've, we've certainly seen how consumers really appreciate it. I wanted to ask you, what are your biggest, what's the biggest challenge right now for you to manage the land in a regenerative fashion, in what we might call sustainable -- there's a lot of keywords for this -- but in regenerative fashion what's the biggest challenge right now?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (14:06):

Yeah. I mean, obviously tillage is something that a lot of farmers have been talking about. And we want to do as little tillage as possible. Unfortunately, as you're converting from, let's say a row crop system, a lot of things you got to work through, you got get a lot of compaction, typically. You've got your soil, that's definitely like the nutrients aren't there. So it's a little bit of a couple of year process to really get that soil back and then you can start phasing out that tillage. And so that's one of the biggest things now we're worried about is, you know, how do we go to a lower no-till system? And obviously some things it's not possible. I mean, we do eight, almost 8,000 strawberry plants. And with 8,000 strawberry plants, you got to make beds and all of that. So it's just not -- and the labor scale is just not there --you know, to it's one thing to do a couple, a hundred foot rows, no till, and then, you know, sprinkle on the mulch.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (14:52):

But when you do 8,000 plants, that's a little bit different of a, of a, just a challenge to kind of do that properly. So you know, we're, we are doing till where we can, then we are moving to, you know, more of the more eco aspect of that. But I mean, over the year, we really only go through, you know, less than a hundred gallons of diesel. I mean, it's not that much that we're using to do what we need to do here to, you know, take care of the crops and, and literally save hundreds of hours. And one of the things we have chosen to do is we have chosen to mechanicalize. So we're using four wheel tractors to do cultivation, to move things around. You know, I'm in my mid thirties and, you know, I did, you know, for like, basically my last farm around 30 is when I stopped, but I already could feel my, my joints and things. So I don't want to get to another 10 years -- and, you know, like some of my other friends that have done empowered farm or market style farming is they have lost their -- they have major back issues. I don't want to see that. So we have chosen to do the mechanicalization so that, you know, at the end of, you know, when I'm 50 and 60, I can still enjoy life.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (15:57):

I don't think many people think about that aspect of sustainability. And nobody can see my air quotes in my hands, but that sustainability, the definition of it just simply means that you can keep -- you can sustain doing what you're doing. And if it's, you know, you out there for an eight hour shift with a hoe, yeah, no, you can't do that when you're 50, 60 years old. Not at all.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (16:20):

Yeah. It's a challenge. So, you know, that's sometimes, you know, we do get, you know, a flack for using, you know, geotextile fabrics and the biodegradable plastic, but I'm putting it back to you. It's like, look, we've run the numbers. We know what it takes for us to make a profit. And right now that's what it takes. You know, in five years we hope to be able to phase that kind of stuff out as we can start, you know some of our infrastructure is paid for, and we can afford to put more time and effort into actual production.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:50):

Well, one farmer to another, I'll tell you to avoid the the paper versions of those. The fiber ones.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (16:56):

Yeah. I've have heard those things are a little bit of a disaster sometimes.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:59):

Oh, completely we, we tried it on our, under our tomatoes this last year. And it was great until about mid June when it, I mean, the decomposition of those things was a little more accelerated than we wanted. And before you know, it, you've got, you've got weeds coming up through them and they're disintegrating and falling apart, but we had set everything up to be no till. So we couldn't get out there and do anything about it. It was a nightmare. So then you have, we're gonna try plastics this next year.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (17:24):

Yeah. Strips of paper blowing around and weeds everywhere...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (17:28):

Yeah, yeah. And once it tears in one spot, it can make, like you said, blow up and then it actually starts ripping plants up with it. You know, it gets out in, you're running a parachute underneath your tomato vine. So avoid those, if you can, like, right. Here's your tip for the day.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (17:43):

So how, you know, as you're building a, that is not yet certified organic and you, you talk about the principles and how you want to grow. And there's really a lot of explanation about what makes your farm different. How do you get that message to the consumer? How are you able to connect with the consumer and let them understand why your sweet corn is different -- why your strawberries are different?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (18:08):

Well, I'm going to pull this up here because there is very specific ways we talk about this. Okay. We've got a little blurb as it were. So this is what we say. And obviously, because we sell on Market Wagon too, so we use that little blurb on there, "We love growing nutrient dense, safe food for you and your family. It's important to us that we eat what we grow. So that means we grow our food without harmful pesticides, herbicides, or fungicides to make sure our fruits, vegetables, mushrooms, and transplants are as good as they can be. We use compost, rock dusts, and prebiotics to fuel the soil, encourage beneficial insects, bees, and earthworm habitat and work with nature to produce the best food possible." So, you know, that's the longer version that we put everywhere. Obviously when people ask, they say, are you organic? And we'll be like, "well, we're in transition to organic. And we use beyond organic methods." That's the quick, dirty version. When, you know, someone's asking me, you know, face to face. And then obviously if they're on the farm, I can just point. And because we're such a small farm, I say, well, there's our compost piles. And here's where our beneficial insects hang out. And, you know, here's where our mushrooms are and the mushroom blocks fuel the compost, which then goes into the field. So that's kind of what we can do. And that's the fun aspect of giving people farm tours -- is to be able to walk them through the different areas of -- and show them -- the sustainability and how we're basically producing a superior product.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (19:30):

Speaking of Market Wagon. And, you know, obviously I live in a digital world. That's, that's kind of what we have staked everything on. And have you found that has been possible to create that same kind of relationship online, your consumers that maybe haven't been to the farm still have a relationship with you and understand what you're doing differently?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (19:49):

Yeah, it is a little more challenging because we can't, and it's really interesting because the market wagon folks, which, because the, your guys are getting is like a 14 counties you guys cover, which is a huge geographical area, is those people don't really want to come out to the farm. We've tried to lure them because we want to get some of the customer ratings for, we want to say, we get them out, then they can do a review of us so that you guys had that new thing, which is super cool, but we've actually had a hard time getting people to do that because they just don't want to come out to the farm. So what we do encourage is we try to push them to our Facebook page because that's how I really communicate. Obviously I do a lot of talking with my other businesses. I'm really comfortable on camera. So I do a lot of live videos on the farm, walking around, showing what's going on, talking about how we're doing it. And so that's where we really push people to, because I can get them there. We do it live so they can comment below and they can, they've asked a question. I can answer it right then and there. So that's kind of what we've done. And then obviously, you know what, they it on our email list too. We can send out emails and stuff through that as well. But Facebook, Instagram, I think is the strongest aspect. And again, I'm not a, I don't love social media just because of all the inherent challenges with it, but it is really one of the best ways for us to reach our people if they don't want to come out to the farm.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (21:09):

That's great. So speaking of your, you said you mentioned your other businesses you have done a lot to train, educate, and help other farmers to succeed. What, what piece of advice would you have for any new first-time farmers who want to get into the business?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (21:25):

Yeah, I think you don't dive, don't go out and spend $20,000 or hundreds of thousands of dollars and buy a farm and buy equipment and just start. If you are interested, pay down your debt. So I don't know to say, to get debt free, but having low outgoing is always going to be way, way, way more advantageous than, you know, just assign the dive in. You know, it's really sad. I've been watching a farmer out -- I forget where he is. He's a north of us, a couple of states north of us. But you know, he basically had limited success one year on his home property, decided to quit his job, start a very large farm operation. He had some weather challenges, but there was one line in his -- one line that he kind of put out there and is like, "we expected the farm to pay our expenses this year," -- in his first year of farming. I mean, like we're not even taking a salary from our farm. I mean, you know, we understand what it's like to build that first year aspect. So what I would say, get those outgoings down as low as possible, get a couple years on another farm -- go work for somebody, make some mistakes on their dollar, not yours. And then start small. Okay. Start really small -- quarter-acre, half-acre, And make sure, you know, what you want to do. Like if you work at a dairy farm for two years, you know that your apprenticeship you're going to probably do a much better job with the dairy than just saying, well, I'm going to do vegetables if you want. Yeah. So make sure you're stay in that lane and then just run your numbers, always be running your numbers. You know, we obviously, our pricing -- let's go back to Market Wagon, our pricing on Market Wagon. You guys obviously need a percentage because the whole platform you have to run and all the expenses you guys have. But we, so we don't actually mark up that percentage, the product, we mark up a fraction, a fraction of that, because we also know that we're not having them market that ourselves. So we have this, this formula we kind of use and that we know like, are there, you know and where we can play with that as well. So again, if you know your numbers, you can be incredibly competitive in the marketplace and know what's your competitive advantage. There's certain crops we know we can drop down low to pull new customers in. We know there's other crops we can't do that with. It's, you know, we just kind of have to stick with what we've got and it's just basically a service we're offering for those few customers that want that specific product.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (23:45):

Great. So it's basically, you have to be as good at running a business as you do at growing vegetables.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (23:51):

Oh, absolutely. You've got to be, as my mentor said, you've got to be, "first, you've got to be a marketer, then a business person, and finally a farmer."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:01):

Yeah. We're just barely ahead of you on our own farm. We're in our third season and this'll be the first year that we've taken a salary.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (24:07):

Oh, wow. Well, that's good. Yeah. The year three is going to be taking a salary. Usually we see it between year three and year five.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:14):

Yeah. It's not a big one, but it's a salary.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (24:17):

That's good. Yes.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:18):

Yeah. Well, I really, this has been a fun conversation and I appreciate you giving us the time. I want to know. In addition to finding you on Market Wagon, which our listeners can connect with you there, where else can listeners connect with you and learn more about the enterprises that you have going?

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (24:37):

Yeah. So, ThrivingFarmerPodcast.com. We have over 150 episodes now. Wide range of things -- GrowingFarmers.com. And then if you really just want to get like, inside my life and find out, you know, how busy I am, I'm now, you know, we have two businesses with employees. I'm now a councilman in our little city here of Carlisle, and I have three kids. Follow me on Facebook. I tend to put most of my content out there. So I know that that's not how you're supposed to do it, but yeah, if you really want to kind of follow the craziness that happens here, check that out.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:14):

All right, I'm going to be following you right now, Michael, if I haven't already. Michael Kilpatrick has been my guest today on More Than A Mile. And it's been a pleasure talking with you about farming, Michael.

Michael Kilpatrick (Thriving Farmer) (25:25):

All right. Thanks so much for having me.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:26):

Thanks for being here.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:33):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, Castbox, Podchaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

Nate Parks, of Silverthorn Farms in Rossville, Ind., joins host Nick Carter to talk about his farm and navigating both the good in the bad of decades of working the land the right way.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and the CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmer stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. One critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:54):

My guest today is Nate Parks. And if you have bought local food anywhere in Indiana in the last decade, you've probably seen Nate or somebody from Silverthorn Farm. He has he's gone before me. He's been a pioneer in the local food movement around here. And several episodes ago, we talked about standing on the shoulders of giants and I would say Nate's one of those. So I'm really glad and honored to have you here, Nate. Thanks for having the time this morning to talk about farming with me.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (01:24):

Sure. Thanks, Nick. I appreciate it. That's what I love to talk about. Right. So it's pretty easy, pretty easy thing to do.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:31):

It should be easy for both of us. Right. It's just sit here and riff and and maybe we'll make a podcast out of it.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (01:37):

Yeah. See what happens, right? Yeah.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:40):

So you're in Clinton County and it seems like you've been there for a while or at least your wife has -- the information that I was given [says it was] 1864. Is that right? Is that when the farm started in your family?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (01:53):

Well, so yeah, so we, we moved here in 2013 under this farm. My, my wife's, I think it was five great-grandfathers back bought this property 1864. I started my farm and my family were farmers in Montgomery county. That's where I grew up and we actually started Silverthorn Farm in Darlington Montgomery county. It would have been 2005-2006.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:20):

Silverthorn [Farm] started over in Montgomery County. And then, you relocated?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (02:24):

But it was actually, we relocated here in 2013. Yeah. We started as Tranquil Ridge Farm in Montgomery County. We had a, our farm, I grew up on was on Sugar Creek, you know, and it was this awesome ridge above the, above the creek. So it was Tranquil Ridge Farm. When we moved here to Clinton County, there was no ridge to be tranquil on anymore, so we had to change it, you know? But my wife's grandfather, you know, the five generations back was William Silverthorn who established this place. And so when we moved here, it was like, let's, let's pay homage to what it really is. And the man who started the farm so many years ago, you know, and bring the Silverthorn name back because, really, the land had been, the land had been cash rented out for 40 years. Nobody in her family farms, you know?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (03:08):

Yeah. So, yeah, we've been here since 2013, so eight years now. It's been cool. It's been a good, it's been interesting, you know, it's definitely out of my home territory, but it was one of those when we, at that time in '13, when we moved, we were trying to grow and expand. And I was renting land in Montgomery County--where this was 120 acres that was available for us to use, her family, had wanted us to come take it over. And I couldn't buy that at that point in time, there was no way. So it was, it was a great opportunity we were lucky for.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:38):

Well, that's incredible. That's really cool. And I grew up in Howard County, that's where our family farm is at, so we're just one county over from Clinton County? I can attest there's no ridges there.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (03:50):

That's right. Yeah. We have to go to neighbors to find a sledding hill. 120 acres and the only sledding we can do is behind a tractor, you know?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:58):

Yeah. I have more than one time. I've sledded off the top of either a mulch pile or, well, piles of other things.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (04:07):

That's right.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (04:10):

What does Silverthorn farm offer? What do you guys raise?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (04:14):

The definition has changed a lot over the years. Right. And honestly we're in another wild transition, just like we have been over the last 15 years, 16 years that I've been doing this. This year, we really, all we have is fruit trees and some hay ground. We shut down our vegetable operations in 2020--at the end of the 2020--which was a hard decision for us to make, but one that we had to do in order to you know, just as a family and financially survive. Thankfully we got through that and we're on the other end of it now and just kind of looking forward to see where do we fit in and how do we want to proceed? Still pretty open-ended questions for us at this point.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:00):

Well, a small world, but your hay is a pretty good hay, our goats are enjoying it. So I was up at, I was up in Nate's farm several months ago, loading a trailer full of hay. So you took 120 acres from your wife's family and didn't take it. But you, you took over the, that family farm and you said it individually has been cashed rented for decades prior. So conventional grain agriculture. What was it like to convert that back into raising real food? Was that difficult?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (05:32):

Yes and no, we were lucky. So 2012 was when we kinda made the decision that we were going to move here. And that was that drought year, you know, and the farm, the way it's kind of split up, there's a tree line down the center of the 120 [acres]. There's an east and west side. We originally took over the eastern side. And so 2012, I planted the whole thing to clovers and, and a lot of cover crop mix while we were still farming in Montgomery county. So then when we moved here in 13, it was, you know, we had a year of cover crop, but what we found when we got here was 1.2% organic matter and less on everything. It was, it was bad shape, really rough, you know, drainage was pretty poor. So it took a lot, it's taken a lot of time to, to fix it, but the benefit we had, we had 120 acres and generally I would produce around 30 acres of vegetables.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (06:24):

So I didn't need all the land in production. And it allowed me to have half of my land in cover crops every year and half of it in vegetable production. So I could flip flop and move those blocks around to really try to build back organic matter. And we're getting there, you know, we're improving. We're still not 2% on a lot of it. Our high tunnels, we've gotten up to 5%, you know, where we, we do a lot of the compost addition, but just with the cover crops and kind of the crop rotations out in the main fields, we have been able to see improvement, which is just, it's a long process to bring that back, you know, but all of a sudden, you know, probably two, three years in, we saw the earth warm activity come back. We saw the biological activity in the soil is really come back cause they were dead. I mean, there was nothing left do with soil. So when we took them over and really hard packed, you know, the, the they're classified as a silt loan, but they acted like a clay, you know, just, just really sticky. And you know, with no organic matter in there, you had nothing to stick. You had nothing to work with, you know? So it was really hard to work and, and hard to deal with, but we've kind of been able to with cover cropping and rotations, we've been able to pull out of that.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (07:29):

That's amazing. I can't imagine a less than 2% of organic matter. And for listeners who don't know what Nate and I are talking about, we would test soils every year, sometimes more than once a year. And you know, the majority of soil is, is sand, you know, tiny pieces of rock clay, but what your plants are going to eat is organic matter. It's going to be decomposing other plants--less than 2% of your soil was organic matter. That's incredible. And do you know what kind of production methods had been before? Was it high tillage before?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (08:06):

No, it was, it was actually 30 years--it was just 30 years of no-till corn and beans. So, in theory, that's their conventional wisdom is no till is going to rebuild organic matter and, and save some of that soil. And maybe it did. I mean, what would the result be? Would we be less than 1% if it was conventional tillage? I don't know. Yeah. You know, what, what would have been left? If it was conventional till it's, you know, we don't have that kind of information, but what I do know is that it certainly didn't seem beneficial in my eyes looking at it. And, you know, you look at the, probably back in the days of the prairies before this was farmed, we were probably 10 to 12% organic matter, you know, and it is a long, you know, you're talking, it, it takes a long time to build and a long time to degrade, right. I mean, it's not like you can go from 1% to 2% in a year that would just be, unless you just dumped so much organic matter on that piece of land, that it would increase. And that's what we did in the high tunnels. But, you know, a high tunnel is 3000 square foot compared to anchor at 43,000 square feet times 120. I mean, you don't have that much biomass, but in carbon, you know, it's all carbon, we're trying to put it.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:22):

Yeah. So you did a lot of cover cropping, like you said, and that's going to draw carbon out of the atmosphere and turn it into leaves, and those leaves are going to decompose the next year. Did you do any other additive things? Did you have any manure or did you bring in some of the organic matter off farm?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (09:38):

Yeah, we did a lot. We actually were lucky--the south border of my farm is the north border of the town of Rossville. And, and so they brought all their leaves to us. So, and all the recyclables, they run as a kind of a composting project within that town. And so they'll bring all that product out and I can use that leaf mold. And then obviously all of our vegetable waste, we would mix with that. And that was most of the compost we use. We also have a lot of the tree trimmers, local would bring a raw mill, you know, ramial wood chips. So we use a lot of the wood chips and several, you know, there's like the 4-H forage fairgrounds and Clinton County bring out their manure after the schools. So we took in a lot of products to be able to build. For several years we did do quite a bit of livestock, but it was, it was pasture-based stuff. So we never really had a big maneuver pack with built anywhere, you know? So so having that other compost was great, but we used it, you know, we didn't have enough to cover the whole area. You know, we'd just have to do kind of trouble spots and high tunnels, which is those high production areas that would really focus on with compost.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (10:42):

Yeah, 120 acres is a lot of area.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (10:44):

I mean, if you're really trying to make an impact yeah. And cover crops were the most economical way for me to kind of turn that around and make an impact backwards. And that's kind of why, you know, when we shut the vegetables down last fall I already was doing some hay and things on the farm anyway. And for me it was like, okay, the quickest, easiest thing for me to do right now is just put in alfalfas and clovers, let them lie and rest for a little bit. It's, it's, you know, it's going to be the least intensive thing I could do it to try to make sure we at least stay in a holding pattern as opposed to a degradation pattern of row crops, which may still be, you know, an optimum of every few years. Maybe we'll throw in some row crops. I don't know. You know, I don't know what that I would love to say it'll be vegetables again one of these days, but you know, right now, I don't know if that's going to be realistic, you know. Unfortunately.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (11:34):

2020 changed the world quite a bit, didn't it, Nate?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (11:38):

Yeah. You know, and for me, we had, you know, I kind of probably zigged when I should have zagged a few times. In [20]18, we shut down our CSA program, which we had had for 12 years. We were, you know, when we had our CSA in a 300, 350 range, it was a really economical thing for us to do. We had the, we had the scale to make it work. Cause we did it all custom pack and custom order. So there was a lot of labor involved in just the pack out. I mean, as you know, with Market Wagon, but I mean, it's the same kind of scenario we did just on our farm, you know? And so in [20]18 we dropped that because our restaurant sales had really built our wholesale sales. That's what we really went after. Ended up most of our, say about 85% of our sales, would go to restaurants.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (12:25):

And then that other 15% were just kind of made up in markets. You know, we had dropped out of markets and then in [20]18 we added the market back, drop the CSA to just kinda help us take a breath a little bit. It was a lot of, a lot of labor, a lot of work. And we had been working with Purdue on the final program of hemp since 2015. You know, we were one of two farms that were growing hemp in those early years. And so when [20]19 came around, we were finally able to to go full production and, and sell that crop. And you know, if anybody's fell down hemp saga, it was, it was a disaster, you know, and we ended up $150,000 in the hole at the end of the [20]19, you know, so we were scratching and clawing trying to get out of that at [20]19, you know, that kind of burned up my savings and my background, my, you know, my cash that we'd held back.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (13:14):

And then we roll into [20]20 with COVID. And like I said, 85% of my sales were the restaurants, you know, so all of the sudden that went from $25,000 a week in sales to our biggest week in 2020, it was $1,600 that week, you know, so it was it wiped us out, you know, and we had 10 people on payroll and you've got 30 acres of production on the ground. It was a nightmare, you know, so that was that was, that was how it happened. So, you know, you can't, you can't blame it all on 2020, there was things that happened ahead of it. And we were just in a really bad spot for 2020 to happen. Right. And so by the time that 2020 ended, we were just, there was a decision to be made. I mean, there was no, like I said, I'd spend all my cash, right.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (13:58):

You know, in [20]19 burned the cash reserves. In [20]20 we had our retail was up, which was great, but it was still only 15% of our end caps. So when you're, when you're dealing with the high payroll, we had the high production, we had the, the high output of costs. It was just, we had to, we had to, we had to stop somewhere, you know, there had to be a breaking point. And that's what we did. We sold all of our equipment. We you know, in October the girls who had--I had three sisters that worked for me for eight years, you know, they were my greenhouse manager, pack shed managers, and stuff like that. And they stopped in October and we just had to regroup, you know, and and take a look back. And, and thankfully we, you know, it was, we came out great and we were able to sustain ourselves in the farm still here. You know, I'm still here, we're still plenty of our equipment left. It's just the actual production part had to be, had to be over, you know.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (14:52):

They'll farm and find a way to survive.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (14:53):

So now, yeah. Yeah. And so now I've and, and I just before I was a farmer, I was a builder. I build a lot of houses and I kind of went back to that beginning of the year and was doing a lot of remodel work. And then a company in Rockville, Indiana was a Family Farm Fresh Co-Op, which is a lot of words to say, but it's a, it's a co-op of Amish growers is about 30 growers down there. And I've worked with them over the years on just production consultation, you know, just winter production on some of the greenhouse stuff that we did here. And then they called and asked if there was any way that I could come manage their sales and manage the production of all those farms. So I ended up, you know, kind of worked it out and now, so that's what I'm doing this year is helping them, you know, managing their production on that.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (15:40):

And so that's six or seven semi-loads of product a week going out to Chicago and Florida and all over the country on a, on a larger scale, right. It's Whole Foods and Fresh Tyme and, and big broker buyer which is interesting. It's a different world. It's, it's super similar to what I was doing with the restaurants. I mean, it's just a different buyer, you know, and instead of just my farm, it's 30 farms. And I get to manage all the production on that. And they're great growers right. And it's the organic food movement, which I still love to be a part of. So that that's been really been really good for me this year. And we'll see how that keeps going, but I get to be engaged in this community, which is, you know, in the end that's, what's important to me is making sure we keep trying to advance this organic local food movement, which is just it's so frustrating how difficult it is and just shouldn't be, you know,

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:34):

I know, I know.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (16:36):

Right?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:38):

Yeah. Tell me about it. And yeah, these, these curve balls, you know, one of the things that our farms suffered from for a long time with program agriculture and the, the hemp disaster sounds like, you know, just another, another chapter in that book of, of program agriculture. But the other interesting thing is, you know, what you didn't ask for is the farms are like yours, any, any farmers, they scale up restaurants, the next logical place to scale up to who would have thought that, that entire market would be shut down for almost a whole year. And I just can't imagine.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (17:13):

And they're not back yet, you know, they, they suffered such financial loss. There's no blame to sit on them, right. I mean, what are we going to do? And now the, you know, I think they're still, you know, we saw of the 60 restaurants we were selling to the last, I can't remember now, who knows where they're at now that was 21 or 22, are just done completely, you know, they're not coming back. And the ones that are coming back are in such a fiscal problem, as far as financing, you know, they're still reeling from, from the cashflow loss. You know, they're a 10% margin business, you know, that's not a, that's not a massive margin they have. So, buying local food is, is really difficult for them now, you know, I think they'll come back. I hope they do. You know, I think they'll make a rebound, but it's not going to be a, it's going to be a while to rebuild that, you know?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (18:02):

Yeah. I wanted to ask you about organic, the organic label. Correct me if I'm wrong, your farm is certified USDA organic, correct?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (18:12):

Correct. We, we dropped that certification this year just because I didn't have it. It was just hay, but that's how we've always been in the past. Yeah.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (18:21):

Yeah. So tell me why is the organic label important to you as a farmer? What's it, what's it represent?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (18:29):

It''s an interesting question. And it's a hard one to answer because a lot of ways it's not important to me. But in other way, it's important to our, to a customer base that we want to appeal to. At the end, why I finally certified after several years was cause I was tired of answering the questions. You know, you're not certified, so how do I know that you are? It's like, fine. Let's just certify the farm. Like, this is how I, this is how I produced. And so much of the time, you know, actually in the restaurant industry, organic's not important because I can't, they're not really selling organic foods through the restaurant industry. You know, the local food is what's important to them. But I just wanted to, it was important to me on that, that way of production in that way of life.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (19:13):

And so I just said, okay, let's just certify it. And now I don't have to keep answering these questions. And you know, are you certified? Are you not certified? Or how do you produce, like, let's just get the certification done. Everybody knows what I am and how I'm doing it now. It's just official. Nothing changed at all is how we always did it. It's just, now we have more expense, you know, and then we have a label to say, to say that we are, you know, if, if I was going in like the broader scale wholesale sales, like, like I'm dealing with a farm fresh co-op now it's super important. You know, if you're going to be dealing with that, that bigger scale of market, you have to have that certification to gain, to gain the benefit of those dollars, you know because certified organic kale compared to conventional kale, there's a massive price difference on the whole, when you're selling semi load locks, you know, I was never that big.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (20:05):

So it sounds like you, nothing changed. You were organic before organic was on your label. But just to make it easier to answer the question--to explain to consumers that you, yes, indeed grew the food the right way. Being able to put that sticker on made it easier.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (20:23):

Yeah, that was part of it. And the other part was like, let's, you know, if that's what we believe in, and that's what we're trying to do is support and push the organic movement. Then it's also important for me to have be a part of that certification that part of those statistics within our state and to say, yes, we do have that growing here and to try, you know, the more land that we have certified, the more people in that program, the more support we get from a state level coming backwards to the organic growers, right? If, if there was no organic growers certified in our state, then the state level legislation and even the extension services and everything else, there's not an incentive for them to be coming backwards to support the farms. Right. So, so at that level, you know, we, we did a lot of work with Purdue because we're super close, you know, we're a half hour from, from the campus.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (21:08):

So to have, for them to have a certified organic vegetable farm close--them and we always had, you know, 6, 8, 10 different research projects that we were able to coordinate with everybody--to Purdue, whether it's the etymology department or whatever department it is for them to do research. So it was important in that, in that respect to just get the support for all the other local farms in our area saying that there is, there is organic agriculture here and we do need to support, and it is, it's a real thing. Right? So that, that was probably more of a driving factor than anything else was just so that we could make sure that our voices are heard, you know. That's not oppposed to saying we do grow organically, you know? Well that, that doesn't do anything. You're still can't count it as a conventional grower on the anything USDA related. Right.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (21:54):

So what's your relationship with the USDA like today?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (21:56):

I don't know. I mean, that's super easy this year. I don't have any relationship with it. Right. I don't have to worry about any, any regulation or any certifications. It's pretty, pretty cozy. I just coast through now before it was, yeah, it was pretty...

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (22:13):

Do you think the organic movement is better being managed by the USDA over the last couple of decades then prior?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (22:20):

No, I don't. I mean, I think there's a lot of challenges. Yeah. I feel like, you know, there, there's all these questions around is hydroponic organic or not? You know, and the original USDA regulations were born product, you know, now we have, now there's all these debates on that. And, you know, I have plenty of views on it. And there's also, you know, when we look at pastured poultry and, and now, you know, a door opened on the side of a enclosed chicken barn is considered pasture ranged and organic. And is that really what the consumer thinks are certified organic eggs are? I don't think of it that I think of it as you know. So that those, those are such challenges. I don't know how you, you know, you get such big, you know, just like anything else. We have corporations that are going USDA organic, and they have bigger lobbies than us small farmers have.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (23:13):

So they get these exemptions on, on some things that I don't necessarily think that the consumer believes will be a USDA organic. And it's, it goes back to just the most important certification is, is buying local, knowing your farmer, in my opinion, you know, I mean, how else are you going to know how your food's produced? You're, you're just not, unless you know who it is and where it's coming from. And that's just, to me, that was always the most important thing for me is having that communication with whoever my buyer was, whether it was my, my chefs at all the restaurants or the smaller grocers that we had on their buyers, or if it was my CSA members or if it was the people at market, I just wanted to make sure they knew who we were. We're making sure our farm is open to them. They come see how we were producing and have that comfort level on your food. Otherwise, a USDA organic stamp. I don't know how much confidence can you have in, I don't know, you know?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:06):

Yeah. Well, I share the same opinion. How much confidence can you have in a sticker that was handed out by a guy with a badge. Right. And I think that, I think, I don't know what you think, but I think the future of that organic certification is eroding because more and more consumers are having the wool pulled off of their eyes, you know, and, and realizing just what you said, that the lobby is big, the exception list is getting longer and longer, and there's still farmers like you and I that are doing it the right way, whether we're going to have a sticker or not.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (24:40):

Yeah. And you know, it's been the challenge for the couple of decades that I've been in this industry is reaching those customers who are, what are the 3-5% of our population who it's important to them where their food comes from and how it's raised. Unfortunately, I don't think that that number has grown a lot over the years. You know, we still have such a small percentage of the population that we're trying to reach, but I think still the, the most important messages is local and is know your farmer. I mean, just, just go connect with who's growing the food. I mean, that's, that's the best way that you're going to ever assure what you're really getting.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:16):

I agree. And that that's been--sounds like that was central to how you connected with the customers over the decade or more that you've been, you were farming the produce off of your farm. Now you're involved in a larger co-op and you mentioned that your customers with that co-op, that you're helping are wholesale to Whole Foods and other large grocers. Is it a challenge there to connect with the consumer and to maintain the value and the, and the crop? If there's not a direct connection to the consumer?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (25:50):

A hundred percent. Yeah. It's, you know, when you start to deal with these buyers and these bigger institutions, you're, you're one of many that are calling them every day, and emailing them every day, and trying to sell the same kind of product that everybody across the entire country is trying to sell to them. You know, they're, they're not interested in your story. They need to stamp that you're, you're certified organic. They need to stamp that your gap certified, and then I need you to have the best price available to them, you know?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (26:20):

A couple of stickers and lower your price.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (26:23):

That's it. You know, and that's been a real challenge because I don't accept that. You know? And so my whole career has been, I'm going to set the price and you're going to buy it, or you're not. But this isn't the price I need for me to be successful growing this crop. And this is what I want. If you don't buy it, that's fine, but this is what I need to have out of it. And now I'm in a scenario where I have to accept the price that's given to this.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (26:50):

And that's the price that you need to to do it right by the land, right? If you want the soil to go from 1.2% organic matter and go up, and there are customers, like you said, small percentage that care about that soil and what you're doing to it, and what you're doing to the earth, this is what it costs to do it right.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (27:09):

And you know, now we've got to figure in labor costs. Holy cow, man, you know, the difference from 15 years ago to today on the, on the labor costs on anybody you want to bring on your farm to work is massive. That's a very big difference. And somehow we're supposed to keep the food costs the same. That's, that's a, that's a hard thing to understand how we're supposed to do that. Right. I mean, there's only so many efficiencies you can gain on the production side to where someone's got to give them, and these prices have to go up, but nobody wants to hear that. Right. I mean we want food cheaper and cheaper every, every year, which is not reality. Right. So, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a real challenge when you scale up to those levels of, you know, a thousand cases of kale a week is a lot of kale. That's, you know, 24,000 bunches of kale. You're, you're out a different, you're not, you're not you're not able to say this is what I want for for these bunches, you're having to kind of take what you can get so you can move that product. Cause it's not going to be good next week. Right? Definitely a challenge.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (28:07):

So Nate, you started farming a couple decades ago and it's been in your, your family's blood for a long time. What advice do you have for a new farmer? Someone who wants to get into farming today?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (28:20):

Well, that's a--it's a long list. I think it's what I've always said the most, you know, I've done, I've went to so many conferences and seminars and read so many books and all those things over the years and they're all good. But the most important thing is just finding a mentor. Finding somebody who's doing what you want to do. That's already in this industry and is succeeding and go tell them you will work for them. You don't care what you get paid, go out there on that farm and figure out what they're doing and to be successful because it's, it's, it's not as easy as reading a book and going and doing it right. You need to, you need to be a part of a farm and to see the entire operation, how it works and what all the, you know, what, what all do you have to do to make sure that you succeed?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (29:06):

And there's a lot of guys out there they're doing a really good job and they need help for sure. And you need their knowledge and the best knowledge that I get, and still today, I talk to talk to guys every week, you know, friends of mine that I've had for these decades that have been doing this, that are farmers and that we all lean on each other, you know, that's, that's going to be the most knowledge you get and the best information you get. And you've got to build that network of people within the industry. That's where you're going to learn the most. And so, find a mentor within this and whether they need them, they may not need you as a mentee, right. But go offer your help and be free and go out there and help them as much as you can so that you can learn what you need to learn to do it, you know, because it's a, it just takes doing it.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (29:52):

You know, you just gotta go. That's, that's, that's always been my thing to people was like, you know, read everything you can read, go to every conference that you can go to, absorb as much information as possible. But at the end of the day, get out on the farm and help somebody that's successful doing farming the way that you want your farm to be. You know, whether that's an acre or a quarter acre, or whether it's a hundred acres, whatever it is that you want your farm to be, there's somebody out there who's doing it successfully. Go find a way to help them and learn from them.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (30:23):

Who are those people for you when you were getting into it?

New Speaker (30:27):

It took me a long time to understand that that was important, but I didn't have that.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (30:34):

If you had that to do over again You'd take your own advice, right?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (30:36):

Do, as I say, not as I do type of thing. Right. And really honestly, you know, back then, there, there wasn't a lot happening, you know, there wasn't, there wasn't as many farms as we have today. I don't think. And, and I wasn't, I just, you know, when I started, so I grew up on a conventional corn and bean farm. It was kind of different cause it was back in 80s and 90s, so we really didn't have GMOs yet. So we still cultivated. And we did a lot, we had a hundred cows, cow/calf operation then, and, you know, a hundred thousand, we farrowed outside and there were about 800 acres of row crops and hay that we did. So it was real, super diversified. It gave me a great base of a vegetable farm, which is very diversified.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (31:15):

Right. And so when I started, I had, I was, I was able to, I always had this entrepreneurial spirit and I just have never really worried about risk. I have a pretty high tolerance for it. So I was able to just go at it and just fail until I succeeded. That took a lot more years than it needed to, you know, if I would have had, you know, if I would've had a mentor and I just, I had a lot of books or like, and then I just started meeting guys at the markets and or at the conferences and we all, you know, just kind of became friends and started leaning off of each other. But I think one of the, and I really wasn't a mentor, but there was Roxbury Farm out in New York. If you ever go to RoxburyFarm.com, they've got, they've got all their manuals on how they've been producing vegetables for probably 25 years in now and 2000 members CSA in New York.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (32:10):

And I just based my model off of everything that he had on that production manual, and man, that was huge. It really helped me, you know, and that was probably 6, 7, 8 years in. So actually when I moved to Rossville on this bigger scale, I was able to just come right here and implement everything that he had been doing on his farm from, you know, like all my blocks are 50 by 300, which is a third of an acre. And it's I was six-foot bed spacing. So it's eight beds on the block. It's all a third of an acre, so it's easy to rotate. There's a sod path in between every block. So my sprayer that I use for all my beneficials is 25 feet. So I go around every single block. I never had to drive into them, I could spray them all at a harvest conveyor that was 25 feet. So we could drive around every block and just harvest onto that conveyor and take it out. You know, if you're harvesting by hand, all you had to do is walk three or four blocks to the right or left. And you're on a road, you know, a path. So there's just little things like that that made such a big difference. Right? And then you have all the L.A. Coleman references and people and John Martin, or J.M. Fourtier or whatever, what's his last name? The market gardner, J.M?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (33:28):

No idea. Can you tell that I didn't take the advice either? I don't know any of these people.

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (33:36):

And that was all the greenhouse stuff, you know, cause I, I focused hard on greenhouses for a long time. You know, we were, we were four season production is what we focused on. We had an acre of greenhouse covered production, you know? And that was so cheesed for us. Not really, we didn't make a ton of money in the winter, but it kept my employees on full-time, you know, and that was, that was huge where I could pay my employees year round and I didn't have to use money that we made in the summer to keep them on, on winter. There there's always work. And that was always huge for us to keep rolling. So yeah, like I say, do, as I say, not as I do.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (34:10):

Yeah, same here. Well this has been really fun. I appreciate you taking the time to share your story. And I know I know that it's not the end of the story. I know there's a lot more that you're going to be doing in agriculture, in Indiana and in organics for the decades to come. As as we close out, if any of our listeners want to connect with you or support your farm, how can they do that?

Nate Parks (Silverthorn Farm) (34:32):

Yeah. Website's Silverthorn-farm.com. You can always go there and there's, there's plenty of links there to connect with me, whether it's through our Facebook or my email is [email protected]. I'm always available there for any questions? If anybody has anything they want to reach out, I'm always available.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (34:49):

Awesome. Thanks, Nate.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (34:56):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon @marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, Castbox, Podchaser, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

Mike Hoopengardner, of Redbud Farm and Caprini Creamery (Spiceland, Ind.), joins host Nick Carter to discuss goat farms and growing pains for farmers.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and the CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmers' stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

(00:54):

My guest today is Mike Hoopengardner, affectionately known as Hoop, by a lot of people in the local food movement. And I am really excited to have you here with me, Mike, because you were also with me in the very first-ever Market Wagon market day. Delivering, what if I recall was only 12 total customers and you might've brought one piece of goat cheese, but you were there from the beginning. Do you remember that?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (01:20):

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, no, we were glad to be part of it.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:24):

We were glad to have you. We were really glad to have you. I want to talk today about you and your journey into becoming a farmer and what the consumers that have supported your farm along the way have meant, but just to get going--So from what I know about you, you and Kristy, you're a professional stained glass solderer and Kristy is a PhD chemist.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (01:53):

She's an immunologist.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (01:55):

So tell me, Mike, how does a stained glass window solderer and a PhD immunologist become farmers?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (02:04):

You purchase five acres, a couple goats and a couple llamas, and those coupled goats multiply rapidly. And then you're looking for, is there a way we can generate some income from this? And then at the same time, Christy was looking for an exit plan from Eli Lilly. So we were looking at a long-term exit plan and we leveraged every dollar we could find in our portfolio and bought 57 acres of nothing but corn and soybeans and started building a farm.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:51):

Wow. And when was that?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (02:53):

15 years ago now?

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (02:56):

15 years ago. So, 2006. That's a big bet. And tell me about, you said you bought corn and soy land and you turn that into a goat farm. So, you, you were farming or you were raising goats anyways, before you bought those 57 acres. Is that right?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (03:18):

Yeah, that's correct.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:19):

Where was that at those five acres?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (03:22):

In Fortville.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:23):

And today your farm is in Spiceland, Indiana. How far is that from Fortville?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (03:28):

About 20 minutes by car. About, we looked at it this way. Christy was commuting to downtown Indianapolis, and she would get off at the Greenfield exit and we moved that out one exit to the Knightstown exit. So about 12 miles more of driving on the freeway to Indianapolis.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (03:52):

Got it. So tell me about the transformation from corn and soy to a herd of, and you'll have to inform me how many goats now are living on these 57 acres?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (04:06):

We have a little over 200 goats and we're milking currently 72, twice a day. And as far as the transition, I was not a farmer, not even close, but I used a lot of resources that are available to us. The NRCS, Purdue Extension, the Soil and Water Conservation District. A lot of people that actually had expertise in farming assisted us, and that's part of what they do professionally. So we felt like we were in good hands. And boy, I'm proud. So proud of this place because we put in every fence post, over two miles of fence. I planted 50 acres of pasture grasses, which is a funny story because I planted them one day, $10,000 of seed. And knowing that it takes a week to 10 days to germinate at day three, I was out here on my hands and knees crawling around wondering if I wasted $10,000. And I did that every day and kind of wondered if at that point if I really should be farming or not, but no, we built everything. So we were the general contractors, designed and built everything with all of that assistance.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:42):

50 acres of pasture grass into what had been commodity grain production for, do you have any idea how long it had been in grain production?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (05:51):

From the time it was cleared from being a woods? So over a hundred years easily.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (05:59):

Wow. What--did it take a while for that--I know it probably took seven to 10 days to get the germination and you could see your seed spiking up. So, you know, you didn't throw $10,000 away to the wind, but then what was the production of the pasture like, to begin with? Did it take a while for you to build the soils up, to get you the kind of production that you need to support the now over 200 goats that are making their living off of the grass?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (06:26):

It did. And one of the advantages, Kristy and I decided to let those pastures grow two to three years before the animals ever saw them. So we did that early on that's one of the first things we did was planted that pasture grass so that we could get them established. As we're building the fence, as building the farms, building the barns, building the dairy, building the house--we worked really hard to get those established and we didn't fertilize that much. We basically added some compost and things, but we didn't go out and buy tons and tons of conventional fertilizer. We kind of let mother nature take its course. And in the process, we planted a number of warm-season grasses, which are deep-rooted grasses, knowing that we needed to break up the clay a little bit. And we were very methodical using--wouldn't, does this surprise you, using science to make it work.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (07:39):

And I know science plays a ton into your business especially in the dairy side of it. But how much of this did you learn from Purdue Extension and from your Soil and Water Conservation District and the NRCS programs. Was that your source of, at least primary data, to know how the science of soil works?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (08:01):

Yes. And then this was the fun day. I took my daughter to a Purdue forage day where they were talking about all of these new methods of foraging and growing and composting and all of this stuff. And I happened to sit next to an 80-year-old farmer from Southern Indiana. And he kept nudging me and he's like, "Hey, young man, we've been doing this for 200 years." So I started relying on the wisdom of old farmers because they've been doing it for so long. And people always tell me what's old is new. And it's like, it just keeps cycling round and round.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (08:48):

Yeah. We have similar stories even just in terms of nitrogen and its impact on the land. And, and my dad said, "Yeah, grandpa always told me if the pasture was getting a little anemic, he'd run chickens over it." Now he didn't know why he probably didn't even know what nitrogen was, but he knew what it did.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (09:05):

Yeah. And our thing was this guy sat next to me. He's like, "Son, grow Clover, just grow Clover."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:15):

Yep. Most people think of clover as a weed when they're looking at their lawn, they're out there, putting out weed and feed, trying to get rid of the broadleaves and clovers. One of the best things you can have mixed into your pasture.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (09:26):

So you will see me out there every January with clover, frost seeding spots that are already marked and ready to go.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:36):

So today your pasture maintenance includes taking a look at what's producing where in the pasture, and then you mark spots and say, "Well, this one, this spot still needs a little bit more clover. This spot needs more of this or that?"

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (09:49):

Oh yeah. Have to.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (09:51):

I think a lot of people think that maintaining a pasture must be easy. It's just grass. We do it in our front yards all the time. But pasture is, as much of the crop is what you grow as the milk is. Wouldn't you say?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (10:07):

It's a huge key to the taste of our milk, which contributes to the taste of our cheese, which if we have a great forage like this year, it lowers the input because we don't have to feed near as much grain. It's Robert Zupancic who's our NRCS grazing specialist. He comes out every now and then. And he always pats me on the back and he says, "You're becoming a pretty good forage farmer." And I always take that as a huge compliment but being a forage farmer.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (10:47):

Yeah. We talked in our last episode about farmers, like you, Mike, you, you serve sort of an intercessory role. You are the steward between consumers and the land. You are the one mediating the relationship between the consumer of food and the soil that actually ultimately produces that, that food. It sounds like you're doing a pretty good job of it. Thanks for that. I want to talk about goats. So you chose goats. It sounds like a hobby evolved into a herd, huh?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (11:18):

Oh yeah. A big herd. No, when we chose goats, once again, going back to the science, we chose Nigerian Dwarf, which are small goats. They don't produce near as much milk as the larger breeds, but they produce the highest, milk fat. Cheese needs cream. You need fat in cheese. So that was the mainstay of that. And then we brought in Oberhaslis, which are a medium-size breed, also producing a higher milk fat with larger utters, larger capacity. And then we started crossbreeding the two of them. So we were trying to get the high milk fat and get more capacity, which that's essentially the way we built the milk side of the business, is one summer we delivered 233 kids in about a 60 day period of time. Go big or go home.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (12:26):

That's right. Now, the thing about dairy goats, it sounds like you were committed to dairy from the beginning, but unless I'm mistaken, there's not a commodity market for goat milk. So if you weren't able to sell it directly to consumers or in stores or building your own channels, is there anywhere that you could call up and say, "Hey, I've got a couple of hundred extra gallons of milk," and take a commodity price for it?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (12:53):

No.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (12:55):

So, and you laugh. So there's, there's no safety net. It's just go big or go home.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (13:02):

Kristy and I have been married, it'll be 39 years in May, and we've always bet on ourselves. And we, we just, we knew this was a sound bet. At that point, when we had the board of health out here to look at our plans for the dairy, they all had smiles on their face. Cause nobody had built a goat dairy and cheese processing plant for goats in Indiana, since Judy Schad in the seventies.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (13:36):

So you had to build a product that people were going to consume in their kitchens because there wasn't a, there was nowhere further down the supply chain for you to send the milk where somebody else was going to do something with it. So right there on your farm, in your barn, you take the raw goat's milk straight from the goat and it leaves your farm packaged as ready-to-eat cheese. Is that right?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (14:04):

Yes. When Kristy and I looked at farming, we felt like the only way we were going to operate a small farm and make a living was to produce the value-added product here on the farm. I have, I love commodity guys. We depend on commodity guys for a lot of the things on our farm--boy, that to us that was too risky, especially on 57 acres. There's no way you can make that work. So we wanted a value-added product. One of the reasons we chose the goat cheese, Kristy's science background, and cheese just line up perfectly. And the other thing is the business side. And we never ever leave thinking about the business is, for every gallon of milk that we get, we get a pound and a half of goat cheese that we retail at the farmer's market for $24 to $30 a pound--I'm sorry, a gallon. So if you have $24 to $30 for every gallon, suddenly it becomes, "Okay, we can make this work." And then it's all up to scale. You know, you just got to scale up to where you're paying your bills.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (15:28):

Yeah. There's a lot of investment and risk in that. I mean, you had to build a milking parlor and then the cheese room and I'm sure quite a bit of other infrastructure. What was your biggest challenge getting started?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (15:43):

Knowledge, lack of knowledge, after we'd been milking goats and making cheese for about 10 and a half years now, we are so much better now at everything because we've built that base of knowledge and understanding and made a lot of errors. But that was the thing--let's Google "build a goat farm," and there's nothing. That's gonna give you information that we needed to make this happen. There's no, right now there's one reference guide, but even, like cheesemaking, Kristy uses a textbook from the 1970s, so it's just, it's not there.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (16:35):

Yeah. You're not going to find it on Google, but I do think Mike, you're being a little modest. You said that you're much better today than you were then. But, and this isn't just my words. I think some large institutions have deemed you one of the best, right? You've won awards, you've got national acclaim or even international acclaim. I'm going to give you a chance here--I want you to brag a little bit. Tell me a little bit about what the world says about your cheese.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (16:59):

Well, we were voted, or we went to a cheese competition at the American Cheese Society National Convention, and our goat milk feta was named the best goat milk feta in the United States. And that was in 2019, and they haven't had anything since then. So we haven't entered any competitions at this point, other than that. But I think the thing that we look at is who buys our cheese and we're in some of the best restaurants in the Indianapolis area. St. Elmo's, Harry and Izzy's, the Patachou Group, the Cunningham Group. We have so many of the top chefs in Indianapolis that will stop by the farmers market or come out to the farm or visit with Kristy on the phone about how our cheeses are doing and what they like about our cheeses. So to us, you know, as much as winning awards is cool, and to Kristy, it's not cool at all. She could care less if we win awards, but it's important that the chefs that have that unique taste really love our cheese and they do so that's award enough for us.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (18:28):

That's really cool. Well, congratulations on both the external award and also all the tiny awards you get every single week when chefs call you up in order again, and again and again, for the last 11 years. You've built an amazing product and an amazing farm. I want to touch a little bit just about what your weeks look like today. What does a typical week for Mike Hoopengardner look like as a farmer, now 11 years into this?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (18:58):

You really want to know? Every morning my alarm goes off on my phone, hopefully, it's sitting near me, at 3:31 in the morning. And I value that one minute, so that's why it's 3:31--that's a valuable minute of sleep for me. And I'm in the barn by between 4 and 4:30 in the morning, doing chores, watering, getting the milking parlor prepped, and ready to go. And then it's run 72 goats up to the milking parlor, milk them, and get them back out to the pasture where they can enjoy some of this beautiful weather we're having today. And then I'm filtering the milk, putting it into the bulk tank to refrigerate it, and then cleaning up. So I have to clean, do dishes, seven days a week, twice a day. And I'm usually done by about 9 o'clock in the morning. So 4 to 4:30 to 9 o'clock chores and milking in the morning. From 9 to about 1:30 in the afternoon is my time to work on the farm.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (20:15):

So today I was building a loft in one of the barns. So I was out there framing up a loft, running errands, picking up feed, whatever needs to be done. And then at 1:30, that whole cycle starts over again where we do chores, get the milking parlor ready, we milk. And then I'm in the parlor until roughly 5 - 5:30 every day. And that's just my side of the farm. That's just the farm side. Kristy will spend a little bit of time with me in the morning and the afternoon helping with milking, doing some filtering. And then she spends the rest of her day making cheese. So she's pasteurizing milk, she's separating curds and whey. She's draining, she's packaging. She hand mixes all the cheeses and we do this seven days a week. So there's no, there's no day off. Cause they've gotta be milked twice a day, every day.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (21:26):

Did you know that when you got into this, did anybody sit you down, did one of those old 80-year-old farmers sit you down and say, "Son, let me tell you what milking, what a dairy farmer life is like," as opposed to either even meat or other kinds of animal livestock?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (21:43):

Yeah. But you know, I was closer to your age then. So I was like, "Piece of cake. I can do that." Now that I'm 62, it's like, "Ah, you know, wait a minute. This is a lot of work." So yeah, we did. But and to be honest with you, we, we believed in ourselves and believed that we could be this big. I don't think we really planned for it properly. I don't think that we were, I don't think we're still ready to the scale that we're at now and the scale that we could potentially be.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (22:25):

Well even us young bucks have a little bit of wisdom, Mike. When I was thinking about starting my farm, having grown up on a dairy, knowing exactly what you just described, it was the furthest thing from my mind. So I got to tell you, you're a harder working guy than I am, and you're more willing to take it because dairy was off the, off the table for me. But it is amazing what you've built. And it's interesting. You say you are, you still think that there's a lot of blue sky ahead?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (22:55):

We could triple in size if we choose to. We easily could triple in size.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (23:02):

The demand is there. And you now have the master of your own destiny. How much do you want to work? How big do you want to make it? And it sounds like you and Kristy are enjoying life right now.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (23:16):

We are, we're tired. We're, we're gonna take this winter and kinda evaluate things and come up with a short term, long term, medium-term plans. And you know, some of the struggles I know small businesses are having everywhere is the lack of employees. And we've hit that wall. Trying to hire people for the farm is a struggle. And either we've got to figure out a way to overcome that struggle or we can't grow because we physically, at this point, cannot do any more than we're doing right now.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (23:56):

So if anybody's listening, and everything that might describe to you is idyllic and you want to be a part of it, Mike, how can they get in touch with you to figure out if, if one of our listeners could become a farmhand, even one or two days a week,

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (24:11):

CapriniCreamery.com. Caprini is "baby goat" in Italian. CapriniCreamery.com.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (24:22):

There you go. Well, hopefully, we can find you some farmhands because it is great work and it is incredibly rewarding. And something that very few people have the opportunity to experience anymore. So hopefully we can do that. What advice do you have for young farmers or first-time farmers who may be thinking about turning their own little five-acre and couple of goat hobby into a dairy, or anything similar?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (24:51):

Don't forget. There's a bottom line. As weird as that sounds everybody wants to turn their hobby into a business. Well, part of the definition of running a business is making money. So I think a lot of people fall into that romantic vision of turning their hobby into making money. And you gotta be cold when it comes to making money. You've got to, you gotta make hard decisions. So that's always what I tell young people. It's like, you know, it's great that you want to be whatever it is, grass-fed, organic, this, that, the other thing. But at the end of the day, does it pay your bills? And if it doesn't pay your bills, you're going to be frustrated, angry, and you're going to quit. So remember the bottom line.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (25:53):

And wanting to quit, that plays into the definition of sustainability. There's a lot of people that toss out the word sustainability. We had a conversation years ago with Purdue about, "Well, what is the definition of a sustainable farm?" And I said, "That you could keep doing it." That's the definition of sustainability. So if you're not making any money at it, the next generation is not going to pick it up and it's not going to continue. Well, Mike, I know that our listeners can support you on MarketWagon.com, but you're also, you're out there. You mentioned a lot of restaurants. You mentioned farmers markets. How can people connect with you and where can we find your amazing award-winning cheese?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (26:35):

We are very fortunate that we have Ideal Food Group as our distributor. So you can find us in Moody's Butcher Shops, Joe's Butcher Shop, Traders Point Creamery--which, Traders Point I'm going to go sideways a little, but Traders Point was the very first place that took our cheese in retail. And the way it happened was, was kind of neat. We were not yet ready to open. We've had the board of health out, they've seen and approved our equipment. Traders Point Creamery's temperature probe, that they have to have to make cheese, failed one day as the board of health inspector was there, which is your worst nightmare. And the board of health inspector said, "Hey, Caprini is not using theirs for about three weeks. Why don't you call them and see if you can send somebody out and unwire it and bring it over here and hook it up?"

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (27:42):

And they did. And Kristy was very leery of--never used before, you know--I haven't even used it yet and I'm loaning it out. And, but it went to Traders Point and they used it. And then Jane and Fritz, when they first saw that what we had done and helped them out. They're like, "When you guys make cheese, come see us." So we had cheese, we took it over there and they're like, "We would love to have you in our store. This is wonderful cheese." And do you know that gave us such a name in the marketplace that we could throw out to everybody. So who else carries your cheese? Traders Point Creamery. "Oh my gosh, really? They make award-winning cheese there," and it gave us such credibility in the market. So I always give them just a huge shout-out because they took care of us, but Traders Point, Good Earth, you can find us at Amelia's Bread in both of their locations. You can find our cheeses a lot of places. You can go to CapriniCreamery.com and we have a somewhat updated list of locations. And you can find us [in] specialty shops. We haven't reached out and got into the big stores.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (29:02):

Well, Mike, I'm glad that you mentioned the value that having an established name in the marketplace, throwing their support behind you, and what that can have to get the momentum going because you were able to do the exact same thing for us. Bring this full circle for Market Wagon, getting, going, Hey, we have an idea for an online farmers market. And we want to get this going. And there were a lot of food producers on the sidelines and Mike Hoopengardner was in. And I know that meant a lot to us getting going. And here we are today almost six years from that point. And sounds like, sounds like we owe you a debt of gratitude as well. So I'm really glad to have you here on the show today as our first guest and talking about your farm. Is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you'd like to be able to talk about?

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (29:55):

Just a couple things. The one thing is you, we talked about gratitude. We, we have so much gratitude for Market Wagon because a year and a half ago, 70 to 80% of our business was restaurant business. And the government decided we weren't going to open restaurants for a while, and restaurants shut down and we literally, you have to milk goats, you have to make cheese, there's no stopping. And we were making for about three weeks, we were making cheese, not knowing where it was gonna end up. Just kind of keeping some faith and knowing we could figure stuff out. And then suddenly this place called Market Wagon went from 200 to 300 orders a week to, "Hey, we're, we're so far at capacity, we're going to go to a second day. We're going to do Tuesdays and Thursdays." And I kept seeing these sponsored Facebook posts with my ugly mug on there, milk and goats.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (31:12):

And I'm like, you know--and it made a huge difference. And I use that example when I would do deliveries and I would talk to people, people that had stores, people that had, for instance, Charlie down at Amelia's, they turned their bakery and restaurant into a bodega grocery store, all online, and Market Wagon, Green Bean, these online marketplaces set an example that it's very cool. It's become the standard now. And if you have a store, you have an online presence where you're selling things and people can pick them up. So I wanted to tell you guys, thank you. And I know we've done that privately a number of times. We just appreciate the effort. And I do remember this, Ryan made a Facebook post right about the start of the pandemic. And he was kinda, I don't know if he was throwing shade at the government or what, you know, what he was doing.

Mike Hoopengardner (Redbud Farm/Caprini Creamery) (32:26):

And I just responded, "Ryan, you just got to figure out how to get my cheese into people's houses," and you guys did. So we really appreciate that. So that's the first thing. And I'm sorry, now I'm on the soapbox. So here we go. Farmers needed this outlet of Market Wagon. A farmers market is--for some people they're going to make somewhat of a living, but I think most people have realized, in our business, in the farming side, I'm not going to have a home run, one place I'm going to sell all of my cheese to. It's gotta be a balanced, diversified distribution group and Market Wagon has become one of those huge cogs in our big wheel that makes ends meet at the end of the day. And I know that's true for a lot of farmers. They have an avenue now where they can sell stuff over winter, where their winter market may shut down. I see them on Thursdays they're there packing bags. So both of those things. Thank you. We appreciate it.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (33:50):

Well, thank you. It only works because it works for both of us and I'm glad that it works for you, and I'm really glad to have your amazing products on Market Wagon. So thanks for being with us from the beginning.

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (34:10):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at MarketWagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us at @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoy More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and leave a review on iTunes, Castbox, Podchaser or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

More Than a Mile's introductory podcast is about local food and the farmers and artisans that produce and provide to their local communities. Nick Carter is the host of the More Than A Mile podcast and is the co-founder and CEO of Market Wagon, an online farmers market.

Episode 1 Transcript

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (00:04):

Welcome to More Than A Mile, a local food podcast from Market Wagon, focused on connecting you to local food through farmer stories from across America. I'm Nick Carter, your host, a farmer and the CEO and co-founder of Market Wagon. We are your online farmer's market with a mission to enable food producers to thrive in their local and regional markets. Food is so much more than just nutrients and calories. It's actually the fabric that holds us together. And I look forward to crafting a generational quilt of farmers' stories and experiences, the victories and challenges of individuals, families, and teams doing their part to help democratize food in America. Thanks for joining me for this episode of More Than A Mile, and thank you for buying local food. It's one critical step in making an investment in food for future generations.

(00:54):

Well, my name's Nick, welcome to the More Than A Mile podcast. I'm your host. And normally I will be joined here by some of the esteemed farmers and food artisans, the food producers that really make local food, what it is. But today, just for a brief moment, I want to lay the foundation and let you know why we decided to launch this podcast and I'm gonna share a little bit about my background, how local food is important to me and why I think also it's important to everybody. As a matter of fact, I think it's so important that I wrote a book about it, and I gotta be honest. There's nothing more self-aggrandizing than self-publishing a book. Well, perhaps, self-publishing your own podcast about the book that yoU.S.elf-published. So I'm well aware of that. And let me just say that the point of this podcast is not about me and what I really look forward to is bringing onto the show, those people that I admire, respect, and have been spending my career to try and build a marketplace and a world where their small farms, their small food, businesses can thrive.

(02:02):

That's what this is all about. I want to let you know how I came to this mission in my career, why it's important to me. And I think it'll resonate with why you have tuned into a podcast about local food. So I wrote this book More Than A Mile, and it's a play on words, right? The question we were asking is what's important about local food and the answer is that it's more than just measuring it in miles. As I was in my late twenties and early thirties, trying to figure out how we could create a business that was viable on our own family farm. That seemed to be slipping away. I knew that the local food movement was our only chance we weren't going to get big. Let's talk about getting big or getting out a little later in the podcast today, including some historical soundbites that I'm going to reflect on.

(02:54):

And so I had to I had to make it into the local food movement. Well, the first question I wanted to ask is a little, what does that mean? How far away am I allowed to sell the stuff that we grow? And what I discovered is that there was very little by way of kind of an orthodoxy of local food that all of its adherence could faithfully commit to and celebrate. Or I guess excommunicate the heretics because people who love local food, its most loyal adherence may be drinking fair trade coffee sourced from Columbia. They'd certainly eat chocolate. And on the flip side of the coin, people that live in Arkansas probably aren't buying Tyson chicken just because it's quote unquote local to them. So there must be something else, something more elemental in this idea of local food that we were really grasping for, that we were looking for as food consumers in the U.S. and I wanted to try and unpack that.

Historic Soundbite: Wendell Berry (July 1974) (03:52):

"I also remember that at the same time in Washington, the word on farming was get big or get out a policy that is still in effect. The only difference here is in method. The force used by the communists was military, with us it has been economic, a free market in which the freest were the richest, the attitudes were equally cruel. And I believe that in the long run, the results will be equally damaging, not just to the concerns and values of the human spirit, but to the practical possibilities of survival. And so those who could not get big have got out, not just in my community, but in farm communities all over the country."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (04:37):

That was Wendell Berry. He's an incredibly influential author in the local food movement and in my life in particular. And I have to admit as I write a book and as I venture in this career in local food, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. There's many who have gone before me, Michael Paul and Joel Salitan, Wendell Berry, and others. And I really want to zero in on Wendell Berry's work because what's interesting about his work over and against the others who have written about and pontificated on local food, and the state of our current food supply, Wendell was contemporary in the seventies and eighties, as these transformations were taking place, he was able to see then what would happen if America didn't turn away? And he was right. That is a level of prescience, of almost a prophetic power to be able to stand and warn about the future.

(05:27):

And if only we had listened, if only we had listened to Wendell and where Wendell was standing in the moment in the seventies, when, when that audio clip you just heard was, was recorded, he was standing up against the most influential person, arguably in the history of American agriculture who has really shaped American agriculture the way it is today. And his name is Earl Butz. Earl Butz was the Nixon era director of USDA, the United States Department of Agriculture. And he fancies himself the hero of American food supply. But what many of us have understood is that he's anything but.

Historical Soundbite: Marshall Martin (Feb 1993) (06:07):

"And then 1980s came along and times are difficult and many family farms faced foreclosure and bankruptcy. And there's still some today who, who claim that they're suffering from overexpansion. So I guess my question for you is Dr. Butz, first of all, did you say that, that the farmers are to plant fence row to fence row? And in retrospect, was that good advice?"

Historical Soundbite: Earl Butz (Feb. 1993) (06:26):

"I probably said it. I said a lot of things when I was secretary and I expect, I did say it, but it was the market who dictated that farmers plant fence row to fence row. Prices were up, exports were good. And the market dictated expand your production. They not only planted fence row to fence row, they tore out the fence rows. I can't even find the fence rows out there now, I guess that's because of large tractors and large combines. But be that as it may, but Marshall, if you don't produce it, you can't sell it. And if you have this program, we've had for years of curtailing production and telling the rest of where we're going to cut back and we're going to raise prices and cut back. That's not the way you expand markets. What we've done in our program around here is we've got our, we've put our prices up here with our price supports and then we've curtailed our production and paid our farmers not to produce.

(07:11):

We sent a signal to the rest of the world that, that we're not going to be a reliable supplier. We sent a signal to the rest of the world that we're going to cut back on production. We got high price and we sent a signal. You expand your production on your marginal acres and your fragile land. And then just undersell the U.S. by a few dollars a ton, which is precisely what they do. They made us the residual salesman in the world's marketplace. Undersell us $10 a ton until you empty your bins in your warehouses. And then the world can take what they need from the U.S. and that's the position we've gotten ourselves into so that now we've got to heavily subsidize our exports to dig out of the pit that we've dug ourselves into."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (07:50):

As a kid growing up on the farm, we spent our summers; spring, summer, and fall, producing food. We spent our winters clearing fence rows, pulling trees down, pulling out old fences and combining and joining fields together to make fields bigger and bigger and bigger so that we can produce more grain. Butz's vision for the U.S. was compelling. It was strong, and you got to hand it to the guy. He pulled it off. His vision was that the United States would become the world leader in grain exports. And in order to do that, he had to activate farms to produce as much grain as humanly possible--farm, quote, "fence row to fence row." That's what we were trying to do. The next quote was to "get big or get out" in order to be the most efficient grain producing nation. We had to be large, massively efficient grain farms all throughout the Midwest and central plain states.

(08:44):

We were going to export to the world, corn, soybeans, and wheat, in such supplies that nobody else would bother to grow it. We would dominate the market. Well, this was a great strategic play, especially in the Cold War era, when the Soviets controlled most of the world's oil supply, maybe we could control the grain supply. What happened though is that that market never really materialized. And while farms like mine, where we grew up originally raising livestock, feeding the grain that we raised to that livestock. And what we said was we walked most of our grain off the farm. We were a ecosystem unto ourselves. The manure went back to the fields and it produced more grain the following year. Just enough grain to feed our livestock, which were also raising alfalfa. And they were grazing. Instead, we became a specialized farm. We were contributing to the United States, food supply, corn and soy, but the world that Earl Butz saw as the customer for that, they didn't need it in the same quantity that we were able to produce.

(09:49):

So what do you do when you have heaping mountains of corn and soy piling up and grain elevators and in store houses and in the U.S. reserves of grain? Well, you release it into the market in new ways, making cheap livestock feed. There's a lot of plots, and many subplots, in the food movement in the U.S. but the overarching plot really has been our obsession and specialization for producing grain. Other things that matriculate out of that are, for example, our desire for pasture-raised or grass fed beef. Well, what's that a reaction against, well, in the seventies and eighties, it became more economical to simply confine your animals and feed them nothing but corn and soy, because well, all that corn and soy had nowhere to go. So it became very inexpensive to buy pure grain feed regimens. And we turned cattle, hogs, and eventually poultry into confined animals. Today, when you see a reaction against CAFOs (Confined Animal Feeding Operations), the real root cause of all of that was a massive overproduction of grain produced for Earl Butz's vision of feeding the world. But in the end, the world didn't need our grain that much."

Historical Soundbite: Iowa PBS (Sep. 2013) (11:07):

"In 1973, President Nixon's secretary of agriculture, Earl Butz, responded by calling upon American farmers to plant fence row to fence row. And he told them to get big or get out. Producers took his words to heart and the race to feed the world was on."

Nick Carter (Market Wagon) (11:26):

Earl Butz, fancied himself as the hero of American agriculture. And in many ways what he did was astounding. It was had a deep impact. That's for sure the echo effects of this bubble of grain supply are still here today. We spent most of the seventies, eighties, and nineties building confined animal feeding operations. But even at that, we couldn't consume all of the grain that these specialized Midwestern farmers were producing. Next, if you recall, ethanol became a big thing and even bio-diesel, what else can we do with this corn and soy? Well, maybe we can burn it in our cars? But as recently, as about a decade ago, we hit what's called the ethanol blend wall. We are blending more ethanol than we can use into our petrol fuels in the U.S. And so we had to come up with somewhere else to put it, and the next place ended up being dairy.

(12:15):

About five years ago, we started to see reports that we had been over producing milk in the U.S. and dairy was being dumped. Milk is now being applied to fields as a nitrogen fertilizer and where we stand today, we've pushed this bubble all the way to the end. And we are sitting in the U.S. on billions of pounds of excess cheese, because we've pushed the grain to the dairy, to the milk, to the cheese, and we have more than we possibly need. So how does that lead us to the original question of local food? What is local food? Is it really just a matter of distance? Well, the distance from you to where the food came from, it doesn't solve any of these issues of overusing the land for grain, specializing farms, putting animals into confined feeding operations. What we really mean by local food.

(13:10):

If we boiled it down is relationship. We want somebody to be local near to us, not just by the miles that I can drive to the place of production, but I'm looking for somebody who I can relate to that's producing my food and that person, the local food producer, stands not just as a relationship to me as a consumer, but they stand in a gap because they mediate a relationship between me and the land. They have a close relationship with their land and a close relationship with the person consuming the food. They become a mediator. My stewardship of the land in the U.S. is effectuated through my relationship with a farmer who's a good steward of the land that they own and that they operate. So what about certifications? What about labels like organic or natural? Well, they're helpful if the farmer that we are trusting to have a relationship with the land--mediate that relationship between us and the land--is actually growing things organically. But the organic certification program in the late nineties became co-opted by the USDA.

(14:19):

None other than Earl Butz's legacy. They trademarked the name and created a list of certification requirements in order to be able to use the label. The label today stands as sort of a proxy for, can I trust the person producing this food? And it's somewhat helpful, but what's more helpful is if I know the person and I understand how they are stewarding the land. I may not necessarily need to see that little round label on their package because the reality today is that little round label can get rather expensive and nearly impossible for small family farms to qualify for. And on the flip side, there are today over 40 synthetic chemicals that are approved by the USDA and still be allowed to be certified organic. The whole program when it became government run lost a lot of its appeal. So how do I know that these stewards of the land that I'm building a relationship with are doing it right?

(15:19):

Do I look for insignia, emblems, certifications? That's sort of what the USDA organic program promised. The reality, however, is that most of the people that are small family farms, they are responsible for the land, not just because they have to, to pass a certification, to make the person with the badge, check a box on a report, but because they have to, so that, that land continues to produce food for them, for generations to come. They have an obligation to the land out of their relationship to the land. Certified organic is helpful if the farmers are actually certified organic. If they're using organic practices. And what we've found is that many of the farmers and food producers who we work with have been organic before organic was cool. And they're organic still today, even if they can't afford or pass the regulatory hurdles that it takes to be able to legally use the little green emblem on their packaging that says certified organic. It may sound like what I'm asking people to do.

(16:19):

It seems daunting, build a relationship with every food producer that's going to feed your family. Yeah, that sounds difficult, but that's actually what we're doing with Market Wagon. And we learned the lessons the hard way. Before Market Wagon, I had started a company that was focused on getting local food into grocers, onto store shelves, where people could buy it and right alongside the rest of the industrial food that they were already shopping for. And we struggled for a lot of reasons, but one of the core problems there was grocery obfuscates, the relationship between the producer and the end consumer. The only way to directly connect you with the people who feed you is e-commerce. We're not trying to go back to Mayberry because, you know, a hundred years ago, everybody was directly connected to the people that fed them. Most of the time it was themselves and at the town square and in the small communities where they live.

(17:13):

And today the world is smaller because of the internet and because of technology. And we are doing this with Market Wagon, by creating more than just an online marketplace, where you can buy--more than buying, you can relate. We've created features that are almost like social media, following farmers, inviting friends, chatting, commenting, and having dialogues through the internet with food producers and the other people who consume the same food. We're creating a community around food and connecting you, using technology directly with the people who are producing the food so that you can trust them and they can mediate your relationship to the land that feeds us. That's also what this podcast is about. That's what I'm here to do is to bring the people onto this podcast, who you can know, learn a little bit more about them. Get to know the farmers, the food producers, the chefs, the artisans, who are mediating our relationship to the land. As we build a relationship-based trust-based food supply. I look forward to helping tell the story of farmers and food producers all across America, who are producing local food, measured more than just miles.

Nick Carter (Closing) (18:37):

Thanks for listening to this episode of More Than A Mile. Be sure to sign up for Market Wagon at marketwagon.com or after downloading the Market Wagon app for iOS or Android. Follow us @MarketWagon on Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, and Facebook for stories, recipes, special announcements, news, and just digital handshakes from our friendly farming community. If you enjoyed More Than A Mile, please rate the podcast and write a review on iTunes, Castbox, Pod Chaser, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for continuing to support local food.

Credited Historical Audio Clips in Episode

1. "Agriculture for a Small Planet Symposium (Wendell Berry)." July 1, 1974. The Berry Center. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1tioiBrZRE&t=50s
2. "Leaders in Agricultural Policy: A Conversation with Earl Butz." February 1993. Purdue Ag Econ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46G831BReDs
3. "The 1970s See Good Times in Agriculture." Sep. 6, 2013. Iowa PBS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azxkm-3g1D4&t=2s