Mormon Stories Podcast

In this long awaited interview, James Huntsman, a successful businessman and member of the Huntsman family, joins John Dehlin and fraud attorney Mark Pugsley to discuss his high-profile fraud lawsuit against the LDS Church—how he lost his LDS faith, why he pursued a fraud lawsuit to get a tithing refund, what he learned, and why he has no regrets.

Show Notes

YouTube

00:00:49 Brief overview of James Huntsman's lawsuit

00:07:27 Family background info

00:18:50 Served a mission at 18

00:22:21 Discussion of a kidnapping in their family

00:36:27 Emergence of Ensign Peak & church investments

00:49:58 Cracks start developing in James’ faith

01:03:03 What led to him deciding to file the suit

01:09:35 The downsides of him suing

01:17:00 Comparing the organized structure of his family’s business to the disorganization of the church

01:28:55 What sparked his desire to sue the church

01:37:00 “It was a very personal battle for me”

01:48:40 Statute of limitations for fraud

01:54:00 Everyone now knows how much the church has - floodgates of awareness have been opened to the churches bad financial dealings

02:07:00 James has no intention of damaging the church

02:14:15 The church today does not need members tithing

02:26:00 How did they feel after they filed?

02:44:20 Are churches protected from committing fraud

02:58:00 James feels relieved that it is all over, and they can talk about it now

03:11:29 Final thoughts & Conclusion

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For nearly two centuries, Joseph Smith’s involvement in polygamy has been a point of controversy. Historians and more recently, LDS leaders, have affirmed that the Mormon prophet took dozens of wives. But a growing movement within the Church is challenging that narrative, arguing that Smith was a monogamist—and that polygamy was a later invention used to justify the actions of Brigham Young and other church leaders.

One of the most vocal advocates of this perspective is Michelle Stone, creator of 132 Problems: Revisiting Mormon Polygamy, a YouTube channel with nearly 120,000 subscribers. A lifelong member of the LDS Church, Michelle once had a strong testimony of polygamy, believing it was divinely inspired. But everything changed ten years ago when her husband questioned whether polygamy was ever truly of God. Determined to prove him wrong, Michelle embarked on a deep dive into historical records—only to find herself questioning whether Joseph Smith practiced polygamy at all.

Now, she joins Mormon Stories to share her research, her faith journey, and why she believes the Church has it wrong on one of the most controversial chapters in its history.

Show Notes

YouTube

00:05:22 Why we want to have Michelle on

00:15:48 Michelle’s great-grandfather was told by the president of the church to go to Mexico to get a second wife

00:35:07 Her grandfather was called to be a mission president in Tonga, leaving behind other wives

00:48:56 She was never taught that Joseph didn’t practice polygamy

01:05:00 Things made more sense once she realized there was problems in church history

01:14:00 Trauma of losing a child at the hospital in 2020 during the pandemic

01:24:00 Had an experience where she felt that she saw her daughter grown up

01:56:48 Michelle was devastated by the Nov 2015 LGBTQ Policy

02:04:50 Discussion of polygamy in the BOM

02:14:50 Michelle had a second faith crisis in 2020

02:32:33 When did she start her YouTube channel “132 Problems”?

02:43:34 God saying in the BoM that polygamy is an abomination

02:56:01 Has she ever decided differently than what god “commanded”?

03:18:15 Discussion on RLDS church and why they split from the LDS church

03:19:41 Michelle is asking individuals to “hold a little space” for this new theory

03:31:54 Her episode on Emma changed her mind

03:49:20 “I have become more confident in my stance since I started speaking out”

04:16:57 Michelle’s thoughts on Fanny Alger

04:39:45 Why were there rumors of polygamy going on in the church in 1835?

05:00:40 Questions on the Nauvoo Expositor

05:33:00 How can the church be true if the original men made so many mistakes?

05:40:50 What are her thoughts on the church maybe excommunicating her?

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In December 2024, the Mormon Church released a new chapter in the children’s Doctrine and Covenants Stories on the topic of polygamy. In that chapter they discuss how God sometimes commands his people to live polygamy and how hard it was for Joseph Smith to obey. The chapter also discusses how Joseph’s wife Emma did not want her husband to marry other women. Children were even taught that some of the brethren were arrested and put in prison for living polygamy.

After the release of that chapter many people spoke up, criticizing the church for this new content. Many believed these stories were too heavy for children and that by releasing this chapter the Mormon Church was actively teaching a story of sexual assault and grooming.

Today we learned that the church changed this chapter. Certain phrasing was removed as well as entire sections of the chapter. Is this due to online criticism of the church teaching children polygamy? Does the Mormon Church cave under pressure? Join us today as John, Julia (from Analyzing Mormonism), and Alyssa Witbeck discuss these changes.

YouTube

Show Notes

00:07:55 Clip - Criticism forces the church to change

00:25:36 Clip - Nathan Hinckley talking about them using the word “hard”

00:26:15 Comparing the original and the new version

00:35:20 Clip - Is God okay with forced polygamy?

00:36:55 Comparing the changes on the second image

00:42:20 Clip - “The Mormon church is participating in sexual assault”

00:53:46 Clip - Michelle Stone on Emma Smith00:56:10 In the new version this section has been completely taken out

01:01:58 Clip - “How did this get through the review process?”

01:15:22 Clip - Mormon leaders went to prison01:19:24 The last panel did not change on Woodruff’s manifesto

01:26:08 Polygamy is still hard on women today in an eternal aspect

01:36:25 What was the 2015 Exclusion Policy and how the church rolled it back

01:32:40 Answers from the Church History Survey

01:48:17 The story of Zina Huntington

01:50:30 Clip - Can consent be given in a Mormon context?

01:54:55 This is a positive change overall

02:03:10 What is it that causes people to question their faith?

02:06:11 Clip - “A faith that blinds you is problematic”

02:08:25 Final thoughts

___________________

At Mormon Stories we explore, celebrate, and challenge Mormon culture through in-depth stories told by members and former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as well as scholars, authors, LDS apologists, and other professionals.  

Our overall mission is to: 

1. Facilitate informed consent amongst LDS Church members, investigators, and non-members regarding Mormon history, doctrine, and theology

2. Support Mormons (and members of other high-demand religions) who are experiencing a religious faith crisis

3. Promote healing, growth and community for those who choose to leave the LDS Church or other high demand religions

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A 15 question quiz has been designed to facilitate healthy discussions about factual LDS Church history, and LDS Church historical transparency. It should take less than 5 minutes to complete.

Audience: This quiz is for anyone who has ever been an LDS Church member, including active and inactive LDS Church members, and former LDS. Please take this quiz yourself, and then please invite family, friends, and (most importantly) LDS church leaders and missionaries to take the quiz as well.

We are hopeful that the survey can serve as a way for you and others to healthily discuss factual LDS Church history, as well as the LDS Church's overall record of historical transparency. NOTE: All of the historical facts below have been recognized by the LDS church as valid, to the best of our understanding. References have been included for discussion.

We will be awarding a modest number of cash awards to those who complete the survey in its entirety, and who are willing to share compelling insights or experiences - which might include coming on the podcast to discuss their experiences.  We are also considering the option of administering this survey as a scientific, random survey.  If you are interested in supporting such a project, feel free to donate at the link below.

Enjoy! And please email us with any feedback or experiences you'd like to share.

Survey link: https://forms.gle/3o7Tr6ZHKzoEBpMs8

To donate to this project: https://donorbox.org/ldschurchresearch

YouTube

Show Notes

00:08:30 Going over the survey together, email, etc.

00:12:00 Question one - Were you taught about Joseph Smith’s 1826 Treasure digging trial?

00:14:10 Question two: What were you taught regarding the Book of Mormon translation?

00:15:50 Question three: What were you taught about the priesthood restoration?

00:17:18 Question four: Were you taught that Joseph Smith had over thirty wives?

00:18:20 Question five: Were you taught that Joseph Smith hid his first marriages from his wife Emma?

00:22:20 Question six: Were you taught about the different accounts of the First Vision

00:24:55 Question seven: Were you taught that Joseph Smith allowed black men to have the priesthood?

00:27:44 Question eight: Were you taught that Joseph Smith was a Freemason?

00:29:40 Question nine: Where you taught that the Book of Abraham is a false translation?

00:32:10 Question ten: Were you taught about Joseph Smith destroying the Nauvoo Expositor?

00:35:00 Question eleven: Do you feel like the Church has been fully honest?

00:35:35 Question twelve: Do you feel like the truth claims are important?

00:36:55 Question thirteen: Would you have made different decisions had you known?

00:38:29 Question fourteen: Did the church intentionally withhold this information?

00:58:40 Why did the church even release the Gospel Topics Essays?

01:30:00 Share this survey with friends and family

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Anna shares her personal journey growing up as a Pentecostal Charismatic in Utah, detailing her experiences within the Assemblies of God (AG) church, and the struggles and beliefs that shaped her faith. Although she has never been Mormon, Anna has a unique perspective of the LDS church as she grew up surrounded by Mormonism in Utah. Anna also delves into her time as a missionary in Mozambique, her eventual questioning of her beliefs, and the emotional journey of leaving the church. The conversation touches on the challenges of leaving a high-demand religion and finding new paths to healing and authenticity.

Show Notes

YouTube

00:04:14 Anna’s intention

00:15:35 “Gift of Tongues” vs “Speaking in Tongues”

00:25:43 Both of Anna’s parents are pastors

00:40:00 The belief in “healing” abilities in Assemblies of God

00:56:00 Anna diagnosed with cancer around age two, they thought religion could heal her

01:19:20 Why do “mainstream” Christians not see Mormons as Christians?

01:33:18 Anna was conditioned to believe that expressing emotion shows closeness to God

01:52:08 Anna talks about what it was like to have Mormon parents not want their kids to be around her

02:01:17 Speaking in tongues for the first time

02:16:50 Creating false memories

02:26:45 How are sexual transgressions seen in evangelicalism vs mormonism?

02:38:05 Anna stopped attending church and school because she felt so ashamed

02:40:50 Anna’s connections with the Latter Day Church of Christ or the polygamist Kingston Group

02:52:41 Anna’s time in Mozambique

03:02:45 It took Anna years to adjust back to normal after her work on her mission

03:10:20 Anna felt like God was calling her home to “save the Mormons”

03:21:10 Anna voicing: “I have created an image of myself that isn't real”

03:38:30 Questioning what to do with her life after leaving that mission

03:47:20 Anna began to see red flags in her pastor -he was not financially transparent and sexist

03:52:15 Anna’s pastor gives sermon called “Four Bad Reasons that People Leave the Church”

04:12:04 Anna feels extremely alone now after leaving

04:25:00 Her parents are still not very willing to view things that are critical of the church

04:45:13 Watched Margi’s “Coming home to myself” THRIVE presentation

04:50:08 What are her moments where she taps into beauty or pleasure?

04:53:46 Final questions for Anna

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Many have asked the question: Did Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith have sex with his polygamous wives? During his lifetime, Joseph Smith engaged in polygamy (which was illegal in the state of Illinois) and his wives consisted of women who were underage, women who were single, women who were widowed, and women who were already legally married. What is the evidence for his sexual relations with them? Additionally a number of the brethren were also commanded to live polygamy, what is the evidence for sexual relations in those unions? Were any children born in polygamy during the prophet’s life? Join us for a unique LDS Discussions episode where we explore these topics and answer these questions.

Show Notes

YouTube

00:10:50 The purpose of polygamy from the scriptures - Book of Mormon Jacob 2:27-30

00:14:05 List of all 35 of Joseph Smith’s wives

00:19:45 Color coded list of the wives and sexual relations with Joseph Smith

00:26:55 Fanny Alger was Joseph Smith’s first “polygamous” wife

00:32:45 Lucinda Pendleton Harris was the first polyandrous wife

00:38:20 Zina Huntington was already married and was seven months pregnant

00:45:30 Presendia Buell didn’t know if her son was Joseph’s son

00:49:42 Levirate Marriage with Agnes Smith, Joseph Smith’s sister-in-law

00:58:44 Sylvia Sessions Lyon thought her daughter was actually Joseph Smith’s

01:01:15 How can the Mormon polygamy deniers explain this away?

01:12:40 Elizabeth Durfee helped Joseph arrange new plural marriages

01:19:00 Did Emma Smith push Eliza R. Snow down the stairs?

01:22:26 Clip - Emma Smith did not attend Relief Society through all of 1843

01:30:06 Sarah Ann Whitney had a fake or “front husband” after she married Joseph Smith

01:38:00 Joseph Smith visited Flora Ann Woodworth often

01:54:50 Lucy Walker answers the question of why Joseph Smith didn’t have children in polygamy

02:05:36 Helen Mar Kimball was only fourteen years old

02:25:50 Desdemona Fullmer dreamed that Emma was going to poison her

02:36:40 Malissa Lott’s testimony that she slept with Joseph Smith

02:46:10 Human Trafficking in Mormon history

03:03:10 Children born into polygamy

03:08:52 The final count for who Joseph Smith had sex with and who he did not

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We sit down with the attorneys behind the explosive lawsuits filed against LDS Church, alleging decades of systemic child sexual abuse and institutional cover-up. These lawsuits include shocking claims of abuse facilitated by Church leaders across multiple states and even international borders, with some cases framed under federal trafficking statutes.The attorneys reveal how these cases aim to hold the Church accountable, explain the legal strategy behind the state and federal coordination efforts, and share the stories of survivors fighting for justice.

Show Notes

YouTube

00:05:30 Anne Andrews

00:06:55 Kimberly DeGonia

00:08:55 Kolby Reddish

00:16:38 The human trafficking statute and how we define human trafficking

00:36:50 The Atonement and the church protecting itself

00:41:25 Describing the events in the way that lawyers do - High Level and what that means

00:42:43 Importance of the victim’s age

00:52:17 Discussion of the American criminal justice system

01:08:25 Charges are filed against Payton

01:19:50 Was Payton ever disciplined by the church?

01:32:50 Movement to consolidate the cases in Los Angeles

01:52:18 Dispelling myths on mandatory reporting laws

01:55:52 Rough timeline of proceedings ahead

02:17:00 Issues of Church and State laws?

02:24:00 What suggestions do they have for the LDS church to handle these situations better?

02:33:32 What is their motivation in defending these cases?

02:52:11 Final thoughts

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Keith Erekson serves as the director of the historical research and outreach for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. On January 12, 2025 he gave a fireside in which he answered tough questions. Today we are responding to that fireside and discussing such topics as polygamy, Joseph Smith marrying women who were already married, and the church hiding aspects of its history.

Show Notes

YouTube

00:03:40 Introducing the original fireside with Keith Erekson

00:10:23 Background on Keith Erekson who works for the Church

00:17:08 Erekson saying the church never hid anything from its history

00:21:30 How the Church has hidden its history

00:30:35 Mountain Meadows Massacre

00:37:25 Utah Mormon Reformation Questions

00:43:42 The Word of Wisdom

00:58:57 The Lord is guiding President Nelson to lead the church today

01:02:00 Clip of Elder Holland explaining how the Church moves with the world

01:08:19 Joseph Smith publicly denying that he lived polygamy

01:17:00 These firesides are for questioning members

01:18:42 John C. Bennett’s list of Joseph Smith’s wives

01:22:52 Denials of polygamy

01:29:29 What is the purpose of polygamy?

01:33:53 Monogamy is the rule plurality is the exception

01:42:16 The New and Everlasting Covenant means polygamy

01:52:52 Erekson on the Restoration of All Things

02:03:05 Why did Joseph Smith marry women who were already married?

02:10:40 The Law of Adoption

02:19:03 Joseph’s wives getting sealed to other people after his death

02:20:24 Sealings for Time only

02:21:54 Time and Eternity only sealings

02:31:31 Erekson on Mary Elizabeth Rollins

02:34:10 Dan Vogel on Mary Elizabeth Rolins

02:40:26 Is polygamy required for exaltation?

02:51:22 Are women just prizes in Mormonism?

02:55:46 Erekson on the Book of Abraham

03:07:50 Finding the scrolls for the Book of Abraham

03:12:20 Erekson saying we’ve always called these funerary texts

03:21:15 The diagram produced in the Book of Abraham

03:24:11 Joseph Smith and the Catalyst Theory for the Book of Abraham

03:27:00 Grading Keith Erekson on his knowledge, honesty, etc.

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In today's episode, John sits down for a conversation with immigration attorney, Justin Sweeney. Justin grew up LDS in Mesa, AZ, served a mission in Argentina, and has served in many leadership positions within the church. He was even serving in his branch presidency up until the end of 2024. Justin discusses how he felt overworked in his church callings, questioning polygamy and masonry, and his journey of discovering the true history of the church.

Show Notes

YouTube

00:01:20 Justin’s experience with a “Truth Crisis” not “Faith Crisis” and Intentions

00:14:43 Growing up, High School, and sports

00:26:17 Justin’s experience at the MTC

00:36:35 “Fraudulent” baptisms in Latin American missions

00:40:55 Being called to YSA bishopric

00:53:47 Justing finishing law school & became immigration attorney

01:09:57 Justin began to feel like an outsider from mormonism

01:18:00 Discussion about the Godmakers and the lack of women in the Eternal Plan

01:25:15 Justin Sweeney’s “Truth crisis” begins

01:39:30 Justin was “using his lawyer brain to asses Mormonism”

01:44:50 Learning about the “stone in the hat” and that the church still has it

01:55:00 Comparing Mormonism to Santa Claus

02:05:33 Women are second class people in Mormonism

02:10:52 Justin discussing the LDS SEC order from an attorney’s perspective

02:23:00 Reading Second Class Saints by Matt Harris with his wife and kids

02:26:20 Why not keep it to himself and continue to “fake it”

02:32:25 “My intention is not to tell people to leave the church”

02:38:47 Elder Holland “stay in the boat” marketing video

02:44:35 Why isn't he afraid of excommunication by coming on Mormon Stories?

02:54:09 Final thoughts - Is he happier now no longer believing?

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The U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has unanimously rejected James Huntsman's fraud lawsuit against the LDS/Mormon Church, which claimed that the church misled the membership over its tithing usage.Join John, Gerardo, and attorney Kolby Reddish to break down the decision.

Show Notes

YouTube

00:04:26 Initial reactions to the news

00:13:00 Huntsman Procedure Explained

00:15:45 Where the Three Tithing Cases started

00:21:55 False statements made by the Church saying it would NOT use tithing funds

00:48:22 What is the definition of fraud?

01:01:05 The Church omitted half of the statement that changed the meaning

01:10:50 “Reserve funds” come from tithing for a “rainy day”

01:31:00 Why we should all become churches

01:34:47 More from the Majority Decision

01:42:55 Closing thoughts - we need to be accurate on how we talk about it

01:45:10 Judge Bress’ Concurrence

02:06:55 Bumatay’s Concurrence

02:20:55 Summary of the judicial breakdown

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