Mormon Stories Podcast

• What happens when a Mormon bishop falls in love with a member of his congregation?  How could this happen?
• What situation would make a divorced single mother returning to Mormon church activity fall in love with her married bishop?
• In what ways does the calling of Mormon bishop, including both excessive time demands on the Bishop and the practice of one-on-one "worthiness" interviews with single women, put excessive strain on bishops, their marriages, and their families - making infidelity more likely?
• Should divorced single women (or anyone for that matter) seek life counseling from a Mormon bishop?  Are bishops trained and qualified to do life counseling?
• How could a bishop and a divorced single mother come to believe that they were both engaged in a God-approved polygamous relationship?  Does a story like this help us better understand the Chad Daybell / Lori Vallow story, or the Joseph Smith story?
• What happens when a Mormon bishop loses his faith, while he is serving as bishop?  What type of pressure does that put on the bishop, his wife, and their family?
• What is it like to be viewed as "the mistress" in a public relationship that is viewed as scandalous (i.e., a Mormon bishops falls in love with a ward member, loses his faith, asks to be released, and the entire ward/stake knows)?
• What happens when a Mormon stake president is forced to release a Mormon bishop early?  What types of pressure does this situation put on the stake president, the ward, the bishop, and the bishop's family?  How does the Mormon church handle such situations?
• If you happen to fall in love with someone who isn't your spouse mid-life, how do you decide whether to stay in the struggling or failed marriage to improve it vs. leave the marriage to seek greater joy/fulfillment?  Is there ever a time to "cut your losses" in a marriage and move on, or should most/all marriages be preserved at virtually all cost?
• Can 2nd marriages work, with all the complexities of divorce, ex-spouses, step-children, etc.?  Or are they generally doomed to fail?
• How in the world do you ever heal from a lifetime of trauma as a Mormon?  Is healing and growth possible?  If so, what are some resources that can be helpful?

Today's epic two-part Mormon stories interview with Matthew and Elizabeth explores all of these questions, and much, much more.  Buckle in for a 7+ hour in-depth interview.

I promise you that you will not be disappointed with these two strong, vulnerable, inspiring humans.

• What happens when a Mormon bishop falls in love with a member of his congregation?  How could this happen?
• What situation would make a divorced single mother returning to Mormon church activity fall in love with her married bishop?
• In what ways does the calling of Mormon bishop, including both excessive time demands on the Bishop and the practice of one-on-one "worthiness" interviews with single women, put excessive strain on bishops, their marriages, and their families - making infidelity more likely?
• Should divorced single women (or anyone for that matter) seek life counseling from a Mormon bishop?  Are bishops trained and qualified to do life counseling?
• How could a bishop and a divorced single mother come to believe that they were both engaged in a God-approved polygamous relationship?  Does a story like this help us better understand the Chad Daybell / Lori Vallow story, or the Joseph Smith story?
• What happens when a Mormon bishop loses his faith, while he is serving as bishop?  What type of pressure does that put on the bishop, his wife, and their family?
• What is it like to be viewed as "the mistress" in a public relationship that is viewed as scandalous (i.e., a Mormon bishops falls in love with a ward member, loses his faith, asks to be released, and the entire ward/stake knows)?
• What happens when a Mormon stake president is forced to release a Mormon bishop early?  What types of pressure does this situation put on the stake president, the ward, the bishop, and the bishop's family?  How does the Mormon church handle such situations?
• If you happen to fall in love with someone who isn't your spouse mid-life, how do you decide whether to stay in the struggling or failed marriage to improve it vs. leave the marriage to seek greater joy/fulfillment?  Is there ever a time to "cut your losses" in a marriage and move on, or should most/all marriages be preserved at virtually all cost?
• Can 2nd marriages work, with all the complexities of divorce, ex-spouses, step-children, etc.?  Or are they generally doomed to fail?
• How in the world do you ever heal from a lifetime of trauma as a Mormon?  Is healing and growth possible?  If so, what are some resources that can be helpful?

Today's epic two-part Mormon stories interview with Matthew and Elizabeth explores all of these questions, and much, much more.  Buckle in for a 7+ hour in-depth interview.

I promise you that you will not be disappointed with these two strong, vulnerable, inspiring humans.

This week in the April 2021 Liahona (Mormon church monthly magazine) the LDS church released 6 online articles attempting to coach faithful Mormons on how to better treat family members who have lost their faith in the Mormon church. I my opinion, they really are groundbreaking articles (even though they were confusingly withheld from the printed publication).

Join us on 3/26/2021 as we discuss, praise, and critique the 6 articles. I would love your feedback on the articles as well. The 6 articles are:

• Are You the Only Member of the Church in Your Family? You’re Not Alone
• An Unexpected Lesson from Ammon for Today’s Challenges
• How My Heart Changed When My Brother Left the Church
• Maintaining Hope and Keeping Your Marriage Strong If Your Spouse Leaves the Church
• Questions to Ask Yourself before You Talk about Less-Active Members
• What You Can Do When Others Don’t Believe

Join us now as Anthony Miller and Douglas Stilgoe join me to break down the recent rebranding and partial repenting of FAIRMormon, which includes:

1. Taking down the controversial "Kwaku" / Cardon Ellis / Bradley Witbeck videos that attacked Jeremy Runnells and John Dehlin,
2. Promising to cease ad hominem attacks, and
3. A name change.

Show Notes:

• To review Jeremy Runnells' "Debunking FAIRMormons' This is the Show (TITS)", click here.
• "Nemo's" YouTube Channel can be found here.
• Anthony Miller's "Unpacking Ambiguity" blog can be found here.
• FAIRMormon's new announcement about their name change, and about forsaking their long history of ad hominem apologetics can be found here.

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Join me today for this amazing Mormon Stories interview as I talk to Jared Hess and Tyler Measom about the making of their new Netflix documentary, "Murder Among the Mormons."

Join us today as the brilliant John Hamer returns to help us dig deeper into:

1. The main Mark Hofmann Forgeries, and
2. The main attempts to "cover-up" unfavorable history by the Mormon church.

Today I share (and provide reactions to) a recent fireside given on February 28, 2021 by faithful Mormon scholar and Utah State University professor Patrick Mason given at the Logan Utah Cache West Stake.

This is a re-recording. I decided to re-record because I felt as though my reactions were too angry. Honestly, I felt a bit unhinged. I know that many of you valued the passion. I'm sincerely sorry to disappoint you.  My overall goal has always been for the podcast to feel "safe" for questioning Mormons, and I don't want to lose that for this important episode.

I have included screen shots of the questions that were submitted by questioning stake members during the Q&A, which can be found here. I have also included the stake president statement that they decided NOT share Patrick’s presentation on the stake Facebook page as they had said they would during the presentation.

Finally, a HUGE thanks to Angelina at GroveTrove Getaways for supplying us with this video. If you want to thank Angelina, you can find her on Instagram @agrovetrove.

Today I share a recent fireside given on February 28, 2021 by faithful Mormon scholar and Utah State University professor Patrick Mason given at the Logan Utah Cache West Stake.

This is a version that has no commentary.  I have released adjacent to this episode a version with commenatry.

Finally, a HUGE thanks to Angelina at GroveTrove Getaways for supplying us with this video. If you want to thank Angelina, you can find her on Instagram @agrovetrove.

This week Mormonism and the world (basically) have been captivated by the new Netflix Documentary "Murder Among the Mormons" - which covers the Salt Lake City bombings of 1985, and is currently #2 in the USA on Netflix.  (SPOILER ALERT!!!!)

While reactions to the documentary (produced & directed by friends Jared Hess and Tyler Measom) have been universally SUPER positive, many progressive and post-Mormons have expressed a wish that the documentary would have spent more time discussing the role of the Mormon church in: a) creating the environment that gave rise to the bombings, b) attempting to cover up/hide its problematic history, and c) obstruct or hinder the investigation of the bombings.

I this epic, 2-part, 6 hour interview with Mormon/Ex-Mormon legend Sandra Tanner, we cover many of the questions/topics/issues that progressive and post-Mormons have been wanting to know about the Mormon church, Mark Hofmann, the bombings, and the investigations, such as:

• What do we know about Mark Hofmann's childhood and adolescent years?
• When and how did Mark Hofmann lose his Mormon faith?
• What are some of the direct and undeniable similarities between Joseph Smith and Mark Hofmann?
• What can we ascertain about Mark Hofmann's possible motives for forgery?
• What issues regarding Mormon Church truth claims were being discussed publicly during Mark Hofmann's childhood and adolescence years, and what written materials may have influenced him?
• What behavior on the part of the Mormon church in the 1960s and 1970s may have served as motivating factors for Hofmann?  Particularly, to what extent did the LDS Church participate in overt deception of its members that could have influenced him to turn on the church?
• What are Sandra's memories of Hofmann and his close associates like Shannon Flynn, Brent Metcalfe, Curt Bench, Lyn Jacobs, Brent Ashworth, etc.?  Were any of them suspected as accomplices?
• What do we know about the main Mormon-related Hofmann forgeries, and why were each relevant from a Mormon.history perspective?  How did Hofmann's forgeries intersect with and challenge Mormon church truth claims?  How did they stand to harm the church?
• What role did the Mormon church play in hiding and/or covering up Hofmann's forgeries?
• Perhaps most importantly, Sandra recounts the inspiring story of her husband, Jerald Tanner, discovering that Hofmann's Salamander Letter was a forgery a FULL YEAR before the bombings, how she and Jerald fought about his discovery, what Hofmann's reaction was to Jerald's discovery, and how it was received in the larger Mormon studies and news community (spoiler alert: it was largely ignored).
• Sandra also movingly discusses how she and Jerald were largely ignored and marginalized by the broader Mormon history community, including being denied a display table at Sunstone, and how many Mormon history scholars would take advantage of the Tanner's research without giving them any credit or citations.  She cites as the main reason of this mistreatment her and Jerald's willingness to question Joseph Smith's sincerity - which remains a taboo in the Mormon studies community to this day.
• Sandra recounts her memories of the bombings and of the investigations.
• Perhaps most importantly, what responsibility does the Mormon church play in contributing to the environment and led to the bombings?

All this, and so much more.  This is a 6 hour interview.

• Part 1 (4 hours) talks mostly about Sandra's memories during and after the bombings.
• Part 2 (2 hours) focuses more on Sandra's direct reactions to the documentary Murder Among the Mormons.

For your convenience we have created time codes that will let you know which parts of the videos you can jump to (if you want to jump around or refer certain parts to friends).

We hope you enjoy!!!!!!!  And a HUGE thanks to Sandra (and Jerald) Tanner for sharing with us her/their historic insight.  For me, this was a true honor.  MORE TO COME!!!!

- John Dehlin (March 10, 2021)

P.S.  If you value Sandra and her contributions to Mormon history, please support Sandra Tanner and Utah Lighthouse Ministry with your donations!!!

====================

00:01:32 - Sandra’s impressions of “Murder Among the Mormons”

00:14:39 - How the LDS church was portrayed in the documentary - positive vs. negative

00:21:06 - Could this documentary pose a challenge to some member’s faith?

00:23:16 - Truly’s role in the documentary & lawyers as church “historians”

00:30:20 - Was it smart for it not to be a “hit piece” in the LDS church?

00:42:11 - How the story is being revived

00:51:15 - Could Hofmann had any accomplices’?

00:54:44 - Heroes & villiain of the story

01:00:35 - Culpability of the LDS church & their obstructing of justice

01:04:13 - Sandra’s recommendations for books on this subject

01:10:47 - Legacy of the Hofmann scandal & its impact on Mormonism

01:22:56 - “Lying for the Lord” & how Joseph Smith set a president of dishonesty within the church

01:28:04 - Why people stay in the church after they have lost their faith

01:32:21 - Could there be another event like this that threatens the church?

01:34:35 - Sandra’s predictions for the future of Mormonism

01:39:48 - Upcoming biography on Jerald & Sandra Tanner

01:43:41 - Sandra’s experiences from Mormon Stories Podcast

01:50:07 - Reflections on Jerald Tanner

01:54:21 - Closing remarks 

This week Mormonism and the world (basically) have been captivated by the new Netflix Documentary "Murder Among the Mormons" - which covers the Salt Lake City bombings of 1985, and is currently #2 in the USA on Netflix.  (SPOILER ALERT!!!!)

While reactions to the documentary (produced & directed by friends Jared Hess and Tyler Measom) have been universally SUPER positive, many progressive and post-Mormons have expressed a wish that the documentary would have spent more time discussing the role of the Mormon church in: a) creating the environment that gave rise to the bombings, b) attempting to cover up/hide its problematic history, and c) obstruct or hinder the investigation of the bombings.

I this epic, 2-part, 6 hour interview with Mormon/Ex-Mormon legend Sandra Tanner, we cover many of the questions/topics/issues that progressive and post-Mormons have been wanting to know about the Mormon church, Mark Hofmann, the bombings, and the investigations, such as:

• What do we know about Mark Hofmann's childhood and adolescent years?
• When and how did Mark Hofmann lose his Mormon faith?
• What are some of the direct and undeniable similarities between Joseph Smith and Mark Hofmann?
• What can we ascertain about Mark Hofmann's possible motives for forgery?
• What issues regarding Mormon Church truth claims were being discussed publicly during Mark Hofmann's childhood and adolescence years, and what written materials may have influenced him?
• What behavior on the part of the Mormon church in the 1960s and 1970s may have served as motivating factors for Hofmann?  Particularly, to what extent did the LDS Church participate in overt deception of its members that could have influenced him to turn on the church?
• What are Sandra's memories of Hofmann and his close associates like Shannon Flynn, Brent Metcalfe, Curt Bench, Lyn Jacobs, Brent Ashworth, etc.?  Were any of them suspected as accomplices?
• What do we know about the main Mormon-related Hofmann forgeries, and why were each relevant from a Mormon.history perspective?  How did Hofmann's forgeries intersect with and challenge Mormon church truth claims?  How did they stand to harm the church?
• What role did the Mormon church play in hiding and/or covering up Hofmann's forgeries?
• Perhaps most importantly, Sandra recounts the inspiring story of her husband, Jerald Tanner, discovering that Hofmann's Salamander Letter was a forgery a FULL YEAR before the bombings, how she and Jerald fought about his discovery, what Hofmann's reaction was to Jerald's discovery, and how it was received in the larger Mormon studies and news community (spoiler alert: it was largely ignored).
• Sandra also movingly discusses how she and Jerald were largely ignored and marginalized by the broader Mormon history community, including being denied a display table at Sunstone, and how many Mormon history scholars would take advantage of the Tanner's research without giving them any credit or citations.  She cites as the main reason of this mistreatment her and Jerald's willingness to question Joseph Smith's sincerity - which remains a taboo in the Mormon studies community to this day.
• Sandra recounts her memories of the bombings and of the investigations.
• Perhaps most importantly, what responsibility does the Mormon church play in contributing to the environment and led to the bombings?

All this, and so much more.  This is a 6 hour interview.

• Part 1 (4 hours) talks mostly about Sandra's memories during and after the bombings.
• Part 2 (2 hours) focuses more on Sandra's direct reactions to the documentary Murder Among the Mormons.

For your convenience we have created YouTube time codes that will let you know which parts of the videos you can jump to (if you want to jump around or refer certain parts to friends).

We hope you enjoy!!!!!!!  And a HUGE thanks to Sandra (and Jerald) Tanner for sharing with us her/their historic insight.  For me, this was a true honor.  MORE TO COME!!!!

- John Dehlin (March 10, 2021)

P.S.  If you value Sandra and her contributions to Mormon history, please support Sandra Tanner and Utah Lighthouse Ministry with your donations!!!

====================

Part 1 Timecodes:

00:07:13 - Summary of Sandra’s background
00:14:51 - Sandra’s understanding of Mark Hofmann’s early life & beliefs
00:19:39 - Hofmann’s exposure to treasure digging and LDS truth claims
00:32:02 - Parallels between Mark Hofmann and Joseph Smith
00:36:12 - Theories surrounding the Golden Plates & Book of Mormon
00:45:30 - Speculations on Mark Hofmann’s faith crisis
00:48:17 - Sandra discusses Shannon Flynn
00:55:53 - More on Hofmann’s mission, & his research into Mormon history
00:57:03 - Salamander Letter
00:58:50 – Sandra on intentional deception by LDS Church leaders
01:00:58 – Hofmann first comes to Utah Lighthouse Ministry in 1978 to share first known forgery – on the 2nd Anointing
01:06:19 – Mark’s handwriting – juvenile “chicken scratch”
01:07:10 – The beginning of a discussion of Mark Hofmann’s possible motives
01:09:07 – Mark Hofmann’s lack of empathy - callousness with the bombings.
01:12:44 – Mark Hofmann’s ego & his desire to pull off the “ultimate deception”
01:14:23 – Hofmann’s desire to embarrass the church & expose the faults their “power of discernment”
01:18:50 – More comparisons between Joseph Smith and Mark Hofmann – Around their “Ponzi schemes” unraveling into chaos and violence
01:20:56 – Discussion of Anthon transcript - Hofmann’s first major (known) Mormon forgery
01:28:34 – Jerald Tanner first uncovers forgery in 1960s – Oliver Cowdery pamphlet
01:31:21 – Jerald Tanner received pushback on forgery claims - Fawn Brodie and Juanita Brooks state they will continue to use the document
01:35:19 – Discussion of original Anthon transcript
01:39:08 – Hofmann’s Joseph Smith III Succession Forgery
01:45:58 - Hofmann trying to paint Brigham Young in a bad light.
01:52:11 – Brent Ashworth describing Hofmann “fishing” for documents that collectors might want
01:53:01 - Hofmann begins a bidding war over his Joseph Smith III Succession document
01:54:11 - LDS church “front buyers”
01:57:09 – Hofmann’s claim to have the McLellin collection
02:05:19 – Lyn Jacobs & Sandra’s thoughts on his omission from the “Murder Among the Mormons” documentary
02:08:18 – A discussion of frequent questions regarding Hofmann’s sexuality
02:14:09 - Hofmann’s 1825 Letter from Joseph Smith to Josiah Stowell
02:17:42 – What LDS Church leaders knew about Joseph Smith’s use of folk magic and treasure digging
02:21:15 – The Smith family merging of folk magic with Christianity - Hyrum Smith’s use of “magic documents” & Joseph Smith’s use of the “Jupiter Talisman”
02:28:52 – LDS General Authorities consciously sanitizing Mormon church history (Hinckley, Oaks, Turley)
02:31:40 – Church Patriarch Smith showing magical papers at LDS church firesides in the 20th century
02:32:50 – Wilford C. Wood “buying up” valuable LDS Church artifacts
02:36:29 – Smearing critics - tragic story of LDS Church translator, Stan Larson, losing his testimony of Book of Mormon Historicity, and being forced out of LDS Church employment.
02:42:57 – Other LDS Scholars forced out or fired
02:44:40 – Discussion of top LDS Church leaders knowing the problems with the church’s core truth claims, but continuing to mislead members intentionally
02:46:55 – The “rule” that Joseph Smith can’t be known as an intentional deceiver
02:49:56 – Did Mormon General Authority Hugh B. Brown admit that he did not believe in Book of Abraham historicity to Thomas Ferguson?
02:51:46 – Did Mormon General Authority B.H. Roberts loose his faith in Book of Mormon historicity?
02:59:51 – The integrity of Jerald Tanner.
03:05:53 - Martin Harris as one of the three witnesses
03:07:26 - Potential motives and means for deception
03:12:39 - Do LDS General Authorities have the gift of discernment? The Anthon Manuscript and photo of Hofmann with LDS General Authorities
03:16:25 - Questioning authenticity of salamander letter
03:32:13 - “Salamander or Moroni?” pamphlet for Sunstone Symposium
03:46:07 - The unwritten rule of the Mormon history community – “Don’t question Joseph Smith’s sincerity, or face marginalization”
03:52:51 - How Jerald and Sandra Tanner were disrespected by the Mormon history community & treatment of the Tanners by Dialogue and Sunstone (Tanners not allowed to have display table at Sunstone)
03:56:13 – Begrudging acceptance of Tanners after Jerald is vindicated.
04:01:01 – How Sandra’s work affected the relationship with her sister, who was embarrassed by her work
04:03:05 – God was Sandra’s motivation to keep going.
04:07:41 – The McLellin papers & other Hofmann forgeries
04:09:11 – Sandra’s discussion of Richard Turley’s book on Hofmann, Victims, & Mormon church’s obstruction of the murder investigation
04:13:47 – Hofmann’s motives for murder & conviction
04:19:27 - Discussion of first murder
04:23:13 - Brent Ashworth as potential target of Hofmann’s 3rd bomb
04:33:04 - Mark Hofmann’s plan to forge the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon