Will Alex Murdaugh get his murder convictions overturned?

Over on the True Sunlight Feed Investigative Journalists ⁠Mandy Matney⁠ and ⁠Liz Farrell⁠ recap everything that went down Wednesday when Team Murdaugh and state prosecutor Creighton Waters argued their cases for and against a new murder trial in front of the South Carolina Supreme Court.

Despite a performance that can only be described as legally underwhelming, Alex Murdaugh may be closer than ever to getting a new murder trial.  To the surprise of no one, Dick Harpootlian used his time in front of the justices to do some good ole boy flirting, telling stories about himself and… Aaron Burr…?

Mandy and Liz dig into the systemic rot underneath the theatrics: the two-tiered justice system that keeps men like Alex Murdaugh in the game, the media's troubling tendency to smooth the jagged edges of truth, and why a new trial would have absolutely nothing to do with innocence and everything to do with power, ego, and money.

Lot's to cover… Let's Dive in… 🥽

Episode Links

⁠“Murdaugh attorneys head to SC Supreme Court in quest to overturn murder convictions”⁠ - The Post and Courier, Feb 10, 2026

⁠South Carolina Juror’s Oath⁠ (found on page 2)

Stay Tuned, Stay Pesky and Stay in the Sunlight...☀️

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Follow The Murdaugh: Death in the Family Official Podcast and Rate 5 Stars On Apple: ⁠hulumurdaughpod.com⁠.

Or watch the Video Podcasts on Hulu: ⁠murdaughpodonhulu.com⁠

Showrunner, Co-Creator and Executive Producer, Michael D. Fuller joins journalist Mandy Matney to discuss Murdaugh: Death in the Family. Explore that haunting 911 call, the human complexities and the emotional truths from South Carolina’s darkest story.

From Jason Clarke's radical transformation to the boat crash that ignited a nation’s intrigue, listeners dive deeper into the creation and overarching themes of Hulu’s original series.  

Visit ⁠⁠murdaughpodonhulu.com⁠⁠ to watch the video version of this interview on ⁠⁠Hulu ⁠⁠or ⁠⁠Hulu on Disney+⁠⁠ or discover all the emotional truths from Hulu’s original series: ⁠⁠Murdaugh Death in the Family⁠⁠. 

This  podcast was produced by LUNASHARK™ and ⁠⁠USG Audio⁠⁠.

As CEO of ⁠⁠LUNASHARK™⁠, Mandy Matney leads a growing team dedicated to independent journalism that produces the acclaimed podcasts ⁠⁠Murdaugh Murders⁠⁠, ⁠⁠True Sunlight⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Cup of Justice⁠⁠. Mandy is also author of ⁠⁠Blood on Their Hands⁠⁠, a memoir about her journey of reporting on the Murdaugh family, finding her own voice, and striking out on her own to do meaningful in-depth reporting that gives voice to the victims and gets the story straight.

START YOUR FREE TRIAL 

⁠⁠http://hulu.com/start⁠⁠ 

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Hulu is the leading all-in-one premium streaming service that offers an expansive slate of live and on-demand entertainment, both in and outside the home. Hulu is the only on-demand platform that provides access to a library of both hit TV Series/Films and award-winning Hulu Originals like Only Murders In The Building, The Handmaid’s Tale, The Kardashians, and more! Visit⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Hulu.com⁠⁠ to subscribe now.

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Previously known as the Murdaugh Murders Podcast, True Sunlight is the intersection of True Crime, journalism and systematic corruption. Welcome to the new face of MMP.

Click here to access the True Sunlight feed with new episodes every Thursday: https://pod.link/1573560247

True Sunlight is the antithesis of True crime. True Sunlight values accuracy over "access journalism". True Sunlight is shed with empathy — not exploitation. True Sunlight was created as a matter of public service — not just entertainment. While the name of the podcast has changed, our mission, values and team have not. We are simply expanding our horizons while continuing to shine a much needed bright light on crime and corruption wherever it appears.

Celebrated journalists Mandy Matney and Liz Farrell are taking their style of reporting beyond Alex Murdaugh and his co-conspirators while pursuing justice for all the victims you've met so far.

Ranked #1 and #2 globally in 2021 and 2023 respectively as the Murdaugh Murders Podcast, True Sunlight provides unmatched insight into the crimes and criminals exposed on MMP and dives deep into new instances of corruption across the US.

We empower listeners to understand their legal and judicial systems through investigative journalism while providing tools to hold agencies and public figures accountable in order to change those systems for the better. 

Listen on any streaming service or visit TrueSunlight.com to learn more. 

Premium Members also get access to searchable case files, written articles with documents, case photos, episode videos and exclusive live experiences with our hosts on lunasharkmedia.com all in one place. CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3BdUtOE. And for those just wanting ad-free listening without all the other great content, we now offer ad-free listening on Apple Podcast through a subscription to Luna Shark Plus on the Apple Podcasts App. And we also offer access to exclusive video content through our new YouTube Premiere subscription.

Check out our new Luna Shark Merch With a Mission shop at lunasharkmerch.com/

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TrueSunlight.com

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Twitter.com/mandymatney

Twitter.com/elizfarrell

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This is the last episode of the Murdaugh Murders Podcast created by Mandy Matney, written with journalist Liz Farrell and produced by David Moses... but don’t freak out! We are simply changing the name of the podcast next week while the mission stays the same.

The podcast will ONLY get better from here — with more stories to cover, more journalists to work with, and WOO, more time to do these podcasts. 

This podcast has been much more than work for our whole team in the past two years. 

So for this episode, before we start tackling other complicated cases, we want to take some time to reflect on the last two years. To remember the good, bad, ugly and straight up strange things we have revealed on MMP. To remember where we started, how far we’ve come. To remind everyone that if we can do this, you can do it too. 

As the Murdaugh Murders Podcast team looks toward a very bright future of shining a light on corruption, co-hosts Mandy Matney and Liz Farrell reflect on the past two years of uncovering the truth in the dark underworld of Alex Murdaugh. The battle for justice is ongoing but being pesky paid off. In this episode, Mandy and Liz go behind-the-scenes and share the best, biggest and funniest moments of the podcast and the many surprises they encountered along the way.

Consider joining our MMP Premium Membership community to help us SHINE THE SUNLIGHT! CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3BdUtOE

Or you can watch the SC Supreme Court's original broadcast here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAnfDa1nYSM

We'll explore much more about the Jeroid Price and secret hearings in South Carolina on Monday's Cup of Justice - Listen with the links below or wherever you get your podcasts.

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cup-of-justice/id1668668400

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Itp67SQTZEHQGgrX0TYTl?si=39ff6a0cc34140f3

We all want to drink from the same Cup Of Justice — and it starts with learning about our legal system. By popular demand, Cup of Justice has launched as its own weekly show. Go to cupofjusticepod.com to learn more or click the link in the episode description to get a hot cup of justice wherever you get your podcasts!

You can still find a link to the Green Squares we are using here: MurdaughMurdersPodcast.com/stephen. We encourage you to share JusticeForStephen.com and [email protected] in your twitter, facebook, instagram tik tok or posts on other platforms.

To learn more about the Independent Exhumation, Autopsy and Investigation for Stephen, click here: http://bit.ly/3JGacec

SUNscribe to our free email list to get alerts on bonus episodes, calls to action, new shows and updates. CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3KBMJcP

And a special thank you to our sponsors: Microdose.com, PELOTON, Simplisafe, and others. Use promo code "MANDY" for a special offer!

Find us on social media:

Facebook.com/MurdaughPod/

Instagram.com/murdaughmurderspod/

Twitter.com/mandymatney

Twitter.com/elizfarrell

YouTube.com/c/MurdaughMurders

Support Our Podcast at: https://murdaughmurderspodcast.com/support-the-show

Please consider sharing your support by leaving a review for MMP on Apple at the following link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/murdaugh-murders-podcast/id157356024

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On Tuesday, about 100 people gathered at the South Carolina statehouse to talk about something really important — victims and how they are often pushed aside in our justice system. 

Murdaugh Murders Podcast host Mandy Matney and other victims advocates in South Carolina rallied on the Statehouse steps this week, calling for meaningful change at the legislative level. Victims of violent crime — and victims of Alex Murdaugh — have had enough of this system, which continues to ignore and harm them.

In this episode, Mandy Matney and Co-Host Liz Farrell talk about victims rights, the need for judicial reform and how to solve the problem with legislator-lawyers.

You can watch a full version of the rally here: https://fb.watch/ks53RmDmYl/ - And learn more about SC Bill 4183 Here: https://bit.ly/3BhM9NB

Soak Up The Sun MMP Premium Members were able to reconvene as we broadcast today's hearing live and we'll share another link soon with complete audio. Consider joining our MMP Premium Membership community to help us SHINE THE SUNLIGHT! CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3BdUtOE

Or you can watch the SC Supreme Court's original broadcast here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAnfDa1nYSM

We'll explore much more about the Jeroid Price and secret hearings in South Carolina on Monday's Cup of Justice - Listen with the links below or wherever you get your podcasts.

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cup-of-justice/id1668668400

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Itp67SQTZEHQGgrX0TYTl?si=39ff6a0cc34140f3

We all want to drink from the same Cup Of Justice — and it starts with learning about our legal system. By popular demand, Cup of Justice has launched as its own weekly show. Go to cupofjusticepod.com to learn more or click the link in the episode description to get a hot cup of justice wherever you get your podcasts!

You can still find a link to the Green Squares we are using here: MurdaughMurdersPodcast.com/stephen. We encourage you to share JusticeForStephen.com and [email protected] in your twitter, facebook, instagram tik tok or posts on other platforms.

To learn more about the Independent Exhumation, Autopsy and Investigation for Stephen, click here: http://bit.ly/3JGacec

SUNscribe to our free email list to get alerts on bonus episodes, calls to action, new shows and updates. CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3KBMJcP

And a special thank you to our sponsors: Microdose.com, PELOTON, Simplisafe, and others. Use promo code "MANDY" for a special offer!

Find us on social media:

Facebook.com/MurdaughPod/

Instagram.com/murdaughmurderspod/

Twitter.com/mandymatney

Twitter.com/elizfarrell

YouTube.com/c/MurdaughMurders

Support Our Podcast at: https://murdaughmurderspodcast.com/support-the-show

Please consider sharing your support by leaving a review for MMP on Apple at the following link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/murdaugh-murders-podcast/id1573560247

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Only one person alive knows what really happened to Gloria Satterfield the day she was found bleeding from the head at Moselle in February 2018. And we all know who that is... 

Murdaugh Murders Podcast co-hosts Mandy Matney and Liz Farrell unwind the latest filing from Alex Murdaugh’s attorneys in which the convicted murderer now admits to lying about how Gloria Satterfield died. Also on the show: the boat crash case starts heating up and Dick and Jim beg the court for money. 

On Tuesday May 9, Sandy Smith and I will be speaking among several special guests at the Victims Matter Rally at the Statehouse in Columbia South Carolina. As we have talked about time and time again on this podcast, our justice system so often prioritizes the privileged and fails victims of violent crime. And too many of our lawmakers are working for the bad guys. 

As we are working on expanding our reach to focus on cases across the nation and maybe eventually the world where Crime Meets Corruption — we want to ensure that the pressure continues right here at home in South Carolina. 

We hope to see you at the SC Statehouse on Tuesday... and let's get into it...

Soak Up The Sun MMP Premium Members were able to reconvene as we broadcast today's hearing live and we'll share another link soon with complete audio. Consider joining our MMP Premium Membership community to help us SHINE THE SUNLIGHT! CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3BdUtOE

Or you can watch the SC Supreme Court's original broadcast here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAnfDa1nYSM

We'll explore much more about the Jeroid Price and secret hearings in South Carolina on Monday's Cup of Justice - Listen with the links below or wherever you get your podcasts.

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cup-of-justice/id1668668400

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Itp67SQTZEHQGgrX0TYTl?si=39ff6a0cc34140f3

We all want to drink from the same Cup Of Justice — and it starts with learning about our legal system. By popular demand, Cup of Justice has launched as its own weekly show. Go to cupofjusticepod.com to learn more or click the link in the episode description to get a hot cup of justice wherever you get your podcasts!

You can still find a link to the Green Squares we are using here: MurdaughMurdersPodcast.com/stephen. We encourage you to share JusticeForStephen.com and [email protected] in your twitter, facebook, instagram tik tok or posts on other platforms.

To learn more about the Independent Exhumation, Autopsy and Investigation for Stephen, click here: http://bit.ly/3JGacec

SUNscribe to our free email list to get alerts on bonus episodes, calls to action, new shows and updates. CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3KBMJcP

And a special thank you to our sponsors: Microdose.com, PELOTON, Simplisafe, and others. Use promo code "MANDY" for a special offer!

Find us on social media:

Facebook.com/MurdaughPod/

Instagram.com/murdaughmurderspod/

Twitter.com/mandymatney

Twitter.com/elizfarrell

YouTube.com/c/MurdaughMurders

Support Our Podcast at: https://murdaughmurderspodcast.com/support-the-show

Please consider sharing your support by leaving a review for MMP on Apple at the following link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/murdaugh-murders-podcast/id1573560247

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our team has spent the last week diving down different rabbit holes related to the Jeroid Price case. We talked about Price a lot in the last episode, but for a quick reminder, In December 2003, Price was sentenced to 35 years in prison for the 2002 murder of Carl Smalls Jr.

After a whirlwind week, the state of South Carolina is sending convicted murderer Jeroid Price back to prison, but the fight against secret back door deals continues. 

Murdaugh Murders Podcast co-hosts Mandy Matney and Liz Farrell talk about the fiery state Supreme Court hearing that ended with an order to rearrest Price, the Supreme Court’s apparent attempt to keep the hearing from being broadcast and what might be driving Alex Murdaugh’s desire to be put in gen-pop at his prison. 

Soak Up The Sun MMP Premium Members were able to reconvene as we broadcast today's hearing live and we'll share another link soon with complete audio. Consider joining our MMP Premium Membership community to help us SHINE THE SUNLIGHT! CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3BdUtOE

Or you can watch the SC Supreme Court's original broadcast here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAnfDa1nYSM

We'll explore much more about the Jeroid Price and secret hearings in South Carolina on Monday's Cup of Justice - Listen with the links below or wherever you get your podcasts.

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cup-of-justice/id1668668400

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Itp67SQTZEHQGgrX0TYTl?si=39ff6a0cc34140f3

We all want to drink from the same Cup Of Justice — and it starts with learning about our legal system. By popular demand, Cup of Justice has launched as its own weekly show. Go to cupofjusticepod.com to learn more or click the link in the episode description to get a hot cup of justice wherever you get your podcasts!

You can still find a link to the Green Squares we are using here: MurdaughMurdersPodcast.com/stephen. We encourage you to share JusticeForStephen.com and [email protected] in your twitter, facebook, instagram tik tok or posts on other platforms.

To learn more about the Independent Exhumation, Autopsy and Investigation for Stephen, click here: http://bit.ly/3JGacec

SUNscribe to our free email list to get alerts on bonus episodes, calls to action, new shows and updates. CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3KBMJcP

And a special thank you to our sponsors: Microdose.com, PELOTON, Simplisafe, and others. Use promo code "MANDY" for a special offer!

Find us on social media:

Facebook.com/MurdaughPod/

Instagram.com/murdaughmurderspod/

Twitter.com/mandymatney

Twitter.com/elizfarrell

YouTube.com/c/MurdaughMurders

Support Our Podcast at: https://murdaughmurderspodcast.com/support-the-show

Please consider sharing your support by leaving a review for MMP on Apple at the following link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/murdaugh-murders-podcast/id1573560247

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Murdaugh Murders Podcast co-hosts Mandy Matney and Liz Farrel take a look at the shocking SECRET release of convicted murderer Jeroid Price, who was allowed to leave prison 15 years before his sentence was over. They also lay out the reason why a widely publicized theory about Stephen Smith’s death doesn’t make sense when compared to the evidence. 

We'll explore much more about the Jeroid Price and secret hearings in South Carolina on Monday's Cup of Justice - Listen with the links below or wherever you get your podcasts.

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cup-of-justice/id1668668400

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Itp67SQTZEHQGgrX0TYTl?si=39ff6a0cc34140f3

You can still find a link to the Green Squares we are using here: MurdaughMurdersPodcast.com/stephen. We encourage you to share JusticeForStephen.com and [email protected] in your twitter, facebook, instagram tik tok or posts on other platforms.

To learn more about the Independent Exhumation, Autopsy and Investigation for Stephen, click here: http://bit.ly/3JGacec

We all want to drink from the same Cup Of Justice — and it starts with learning about our legal system. By popular demand, Cup of Justice has launched as its own weekly show. Go to cupofjusticepod.com to learn more or click the link in the episode description to get a hot cup of justice wherever you get your podcasts!

Consider joining our MMP Premium Membership community to help us SHINE THE SUNLIGHT! CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3BdUtOE

SUNscribe to our free email list to get alerts on bonus episodes, calls to action, new shows and updates. CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3KBMJcP

And a special thank you to our sponsors: Microdose.com, PELOTON, Simplisafe, and others. Use promo code "MANDY" for a special offer!

Find us on social media:

Facebook.com/MurdaughPod/

Instagram.com/murdaughmurderspod/

Twitter.com/mandymatney

Twitter.com/elizfarrell

YouTube.com/c/MurdaughMurders

Support Our Podcast at: https://murdaughmurderspodcast.com/support-the-show

Please consider sharing your support by leaving a review for MMP on Apple at the following link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/murdaugh-murders-podcast/id1573560247

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this 88th episode, Co-hosts Mandy Matney and Liz Farrel unpack Russell Laffitte’s latest attempt to get a do-over in federal court. They also take a step back to look at the bigger picture of how convicted murderer Alex Murdaugh used Eddie Smith to do his bidding and then threw him under the bus in an effort to escape consequence.

Now, Eddie is caught between the state of South Carolina and its two-tiered justice system that continues to treat the powerful much differently.

You can still find a link to the Green Squares we are using here: MurdaughMurdersPodcast.com/stephen. We encourage you to share JusticeForStephen.com and [email protected] in your twitter, facebook, instagram tik tok or posts on other platforms.

To learn more about the Independent Exhumation, Autopsy and Investigation for Stephen, click here: http://bit.ly/3JGacec

We believe 2023 is Stephen's year. Thank you all again for the love and support.

We all want to drink from the same Cup Of Justice — and it starts with learning about our legal system. By popular demand, Cup of Justice has launched as its own weekly show. Go to cupofjusticepod.com to learn more or click the link in the episode description to get a hot cup of justice wherever you get your podcasts!

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cup-of-justice/id1668668400

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Itp67SQTZEHQGgrX0TYTl?si=39ff6a0cc34140f3

Consider joining our MMP Premium Membership community to help us SHINE THE SUNLIGHT! CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3BdUtOE

SUNscribe to our free email list to get alerts on bonus episodes, calls to action, new shows and updates. CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3KBMJcP

And a special thank you to our sponsors: Microdose.com, PELOTON, Simplisafe, and others. Use promo code "MANDY" for a special offer!

Find us on social media:

Facebook.com/MurdaughPod/

Instagram.com/murdaughmurderspod/

Twitter.com/mandymatney

Twitter.com/elizfarrell

YouTube.com/c/MurdaughMurders

Support Our Podcast at: https://murdaughmurderspodcast.com/support-the-show

Please consider sharing your support by leaving a review for MMP on Apple at the following link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/murdaugh-murders-podcast/id1573560247

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

First off, if you’re on social media, please please please take part in our Green Day for Justice campaign to show the Smith family your love and support. A while ago, Sandy told me that Stephen’s favorite color was green and we are requesting all listeners to post a green square in their social media profiles for the month of April. 

You can find a link to the squares we are using here: MurdaughMurdersPodcast.com/Stephen. We encourage you to share JusticeForStephen.com and [email protected] in your twitter, facebook, instagram tik tok or posts on other platforms.

The body of Stephen Smith was exhumed over the weekend for an independent autopsy, and the renewed investigation into his death has finally begun in earnest. Co-hosts Mandy Matney and Liz Farrel talk to Sandy Smith about how she feels now that her longtime wish has finally been realized. 

To learn more about the Independent Exhumation, Autopsy and Investigation for Stephen, click here: http://bit.ly/3JGacec

We believe 2023 is Stephen's year. Thank you all again for the love and support.

Have a listen to some of the fun conversations we’ve been having;

Rabia And Ellyn Solve The Case:

1) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/part-i-the-murdaugh-trial-with-mandy-matney/id1646694616?i=1000606566414

2) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/part-ii-the-murdaugh-trial-with-mandy-matney/id1646694616?i=1000606723355

Palmetto Primetime:

1) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/palmetto-primetime-episode-5-the-pesky-podcasters/id1674684633?i=1000605490834

2) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/palmetto-primetime-episode-4-shining-a-light-in/id1674684633?i=1000604827170

3) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/palmetto-primetime-episode-6-the-questions-no-one/id1674684633?i=1000606574971

We all want to drink from the same Cup Of Justice — and it starts with learning about our legal system. By popular demand, Cup of Justice has launched as its own weekly show. Go to cupofjusticepod.com to learn more or click the link in the episode description to get a hot cup of justice wherever you get your podcasts!

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cup-of-justice/id1668668400

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Itp67SQTZEHQGgrX0TYTl?si=39ff6a0cc34140f3

Consider joining our MMP Premium Membership community to help us SHINE THE SUNLIGHT! CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3BdUtOE

SUNscribe to our free email list to get alerts on bonus episodes, calls to action, new shows and updates. CLICK HERE to learn more: https://bit.ly/3KBMJcP

And a special thank you to our sponsors: Microdose.com, PELOTON, Simplisafe, and others. Use promo code "MANDY" for a special offer!

Find us on social media:

Facebook.com/MurdaughPod/

Instagram.com/murdaughmurderspod/

Twitter.com/mandymatney

Twitter.com/elizfarrell

YouTube.com/c/MurdaughMurders

Support Our Podcast at: https://murdaughmurderspodcast.com/support-the-show

Please consider sharing your support by leaving a review for MMP on Apple at the following link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/murdaugh-murders-podcast/id1573560247

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices