New Kinship

“ In our society is a big assumption that what it means to be truly, fully human is to not need other people… So you face a choice: is it fundamentally a bad thing to be a person? Or, is our account of a person as ‘someone who’s independent and autonomous’ fundamentally untrue? And [if so] we have to make room for our genuine neediness in our account of what it means to be human and what we owe to each other.”

Author Leah Libresco Sargeant joined New Kinship to talk about building community, relationships, and need. We discussed practical ways of building Christian community from her second book, Building the Benedict Option: A Guide to Gathering Two or Three Together in His Name. And we dived into her just-released third book, The Dignity of Dependence: A Feminist Manifesto, about an anthropology of need, justice, and care.

Vulnerability, it turns out, isn’t just for women/children/elders/the weak. It’s for all of us.

★ About Our Guest

Leah Libresco Sargeant is the author of The Dignity of Dependence (as well as Arriving at Amen and Building the Benedict Option). She runs the Substack Other Feminisms, which focuses on how to advocate for women as women in a world that makes an idol of autonomy. She lives in Maryland and works in family policy in D.C.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #70 - Who’s Afraid of Dependence? with Leah Libresco Sargeant

(05:09) Overview: Building the Benedict Option - generating community

(16:28) Catholic resources for building neighborhood community

(26:50) What we give up, for community

(30:08) Overview: The Dignity of Dependence

(33:27) “Personalism” and recommended sources

(36:12) Equality of men and women ≠ interchangeability

(40:47) Does dependence rely on hierarchy relationships?

(43:19) How we measure labor with market logic (and shouldn’t)

(49:44) Women’s “porous” experience of the world, and our theology of the church as feminine

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

“Paul [in 1st Corinthians] really does seem to think that what I do with my body, Christ has done with his body. Like, when I use my body to abuse other people, I have taken Christ's body and used it to abuse people, which for a Christian is the maximum sacrilege that you could do. But when I do something loving or caring or giving… I have taken Jesus' body and blessed others with it.”

So.

You heard part 1. (If not, it’s here: #68 - The Christian Story of Sex and Marriage, with Tyler Parker (Part 1))

Now you’re back for part 2. We’ve got a lot more for you:

Join us for the tour through Numbers, Deuteronomy, the Gospels, Romans, and 1st Corinthians… We touch on themes of idolatry, adultery, how Jesus was super single, and what this means for… well, anyone with a body: single or married, straight or sexual minorities, broken and definitely beautiful.

Please listen and then send your comments, questions, disagreements, and general angst. Links below. We’d love to hear from you!

(For those of us less attuned to sarcasm: If you email the gmail address Tyler named at the end of this episode, the poor guy on the other end of that email will not know what you’re talking about. 😆 Please just contact TJ, or any of us, at the email and Substack links below!)

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #69 - The Christian Story of Sex and Marriage with Tyler Parker (Part 2)

(00:15) A quick summary of Part 1

(02:43) "Tselem"=little statues, images of God

(07:29) Paul on conjugal rights: How consent images God (and coercion does not)

(16:07) Deuteronomy: "For the sake of the world who is watching..."

(27:48) Idolatry: "I don't want you to settle for less(er gods)"

(34:06) Numbers: the tie between idolatry and adultery

(39:22) Paul in Romans 1: When we worship a creature instead

(52:33) So...what does this mean for Side B? How Jesus was single

(01:04:52) "Sex is not the only way I can use my body to demonstrate God in the world."

(01:11:38) "We're gonna fuse bodies..."

(01:14:28) Marriage as a metaphor for God, and its limits

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

What is marriage actually for? What is sex for?

The way we answer these questions reveal the stories we tell ourselves and each other. So then: what is the story we see unfolding in the Bible? And what would it look like for the Christian story to be our primary narrative?

In this episode, Tyler Parker takes us through the first part of the Biblical story. God’s kingdom on earth, how human marriage plays a role, what makes marriage a unique relationship, good stuff. And then we touch on the Christian story’s implications for same-sex marriage, serial monogamy, hookup relationships, and other expressions of sexuality.

And then we realized this was a big topic and saved a few questions to Part 2. Stay tuned for that!

Part 2 can be found here: https://open.substack.com/pub/newkinship/p/69-the-christian-story-of-sex-and

Finally: We note the need for a Catholic voice to join this conversation, so—if you have a recommendation, please get in touch!

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #68 - The Christian Story of Sex and Marriage with Tyler Parker (Part 1)

(03:58) Why we start with narrative

(08:08) The Bible's creation myth: a God who makes order from chaos

(12:56) The dimorphic expression of God's image

(20:14) God rested: He made a home for himself, with humans

(26:00) "Ezer": a helper who does what you cannot

(30:16) "Kenegdo": marriage isn't just union, it's REunion.

(41:47) A symbol of fruitfulness--but what is a symbol? We note the need for a Catholic voice.

(54:18) What about the church and other communities? Does marriage "colonize" all the good things about human unions?

(01:03:11) "Porneia": what is NOT good, in God's narrative

(01:17:23) In which we decide we'll need a Part 2

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Co-Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

My recent friend Faith, who I met at an OTL Dialogue, has a gift for questions. So when Faith expressed interest in asking me about my community living situation, I was grateful she was up for recording our call, because she’s a careful thinker who understands systems from a deep rootedness in the organic nature of community and personhood. And boy, did she make me think and reflect.

Leaving our conversation, I’m left with questions for how to make my community house wiser, more developed, more mature. I’m left wondering how we can develop rituals of modifying our covenant, rituals of remembering our values and vision, on staying attuned to different nodes of awareness on the health of the community, and on encouraging multiple nodes of community ownership.

(00:00) Introductions

(03:38) Foundations of Intentional Community

(08:58) Values and Practices in Community Living

(16:17) Conflict Resolution and Community Dynamics

(28:11) Navigating Household Dynamics, Clutter, and Values

(29:50) Leadership Challenges for Enneagram 2s

(32:25) Balancing External and Internal Responsibilities

(40:45) The Process of Housemate Transitions

(44:15) Future Aspirations and Neighborhood Integration

In this bonus review episode of Revoice 2025, TJ and David (and a couple friends at the end) discuss their experiences at the recent Revoice 2025 conference held in Seattle, Washington. What we forgot to mention in the recording was how incredible the “Build” theme was this year, as the different main speakers walked us through Nehemiah and Art really hit it out of the ballpark with his exhortations for the Side B community (and its friends and allies) to get to work seeking the Kingdom of God. It was powerful.

Some highlights mentioned included the various speakers (including Mwendia, Wesley Hill, Anna Carter from Eden Invitation, and Julia Sadusky), the worship team led by Wes, and spaces to make meaningful connections. We offer a couple tips to attendees for making future conferences enjoyable (like affinity groups, communal living arrangements).

Check out Revoice for next year! https://www.revoice.org/

In LGBT and Christian communities, Ron Koustas has seen a lot. When his longtime partner was diagnosed with AIDS—in the early years before life-saving medications were available—Ron became his partner’s caregiver. As he revisited the Christian faith of his youth, Ron eventually joined and then served in ministries to gay folks in New York City. He’s seen ex-gay churches try to help people “become straight.” He’s seen churches love gay people well, and also poorly. He’s been part of several close “chosen families.” He’s been asked hurtful questions, been defended by church people, been asked to defend himself, and has continued to serve and support fellow believers through the process.

We are fascinated by Ron’s story over the years and encouraged by his continued, joyful pursuit of Jesus and his church.

★ About Our Guest

Ron Koustas, now retired from federal service, has spent over 30 years leading AIDS outreach efforts in NYC and Northern NJ churches, including playing a pivotal role in Hope For New York’s AIDS Ministry. His ministry has been featured in Christianity Today’s Leadership Journal and Michael Slaughter’s book unLearning Church. More recently, prompted by pastoral encouragement, Ron has embraced the Side B community and now actively engages with younger members through his NJ Revoice Chapter. He continues to serve as a breakout speaker at the annual Revoice Conference.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #67 - Ron Koustas's Testimony of Staying: Caregiving and Church Ministry in the AIDS Crisis

(01:42) Ron's story: supporting his gay partner with AIDS

(21:07) "Ex-gay" church ministries: "Are you gay or a Christian?"

(30:42) Moving out of ex-gay spaces and into Revoice circles

(45:15) What is good (still?) about loving your partner?

(52:28) Joining a new church: "If you're gay, what are you doing here?"

(57:21) Advice for feeling settled, chosen families

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

In Japan, where Christians are a minority and “being gay” carries some different cultural meanings than it does in the US, Aogu Fujihashi offers to LGBTQ people the support and discipleship he would have wanted to receive as a teenager. This week, David and TJ talk with Aogu about Japanese Christianity, his journey toward a Side B understanding of faith and sexuality, his spiritual influences (from Augustine to Calvin to Piper and more), and his LGBTQ+ ministry in Tokyo.

Also: Japanese bathhouse culture! We learned some things.

We appreciate Aogu’s deep care for the church in Japan, and his desire for open dialogue rather than hostility—wherever you find yourself on these questions, we hope you’ll join us in listening and learning from each other.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ About Our Guest

Aogu Fujihashi is a gay Japanese Christian who served on staff with YWAM from 2020 to 2025, after volunteering with them in the 2011 tsunami relief efforts. He focuses on helping the Japanese church have healthier conversations about LGBTQ+ issues. Aogu helped edit the Japanese translation of Two Views on Homosexuality and wrote the foreword for Wesley Hill’s Washed and Waiting. He’s passionate about creating spaces where people can experience God’s love and live whole lives. He can be found on Instagram at @aogufuji.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #66 - Wrestling with Faith and Sexuality in Japan: Aogu Fujihashi’s Journey | 信仰とセクシュアリティの葛藤：藤橋仰さんの証し

(00:26) "When I realized I was gay..."

(12:39) A spiritual lineage of God's heart for the world

(21:35) Don't charismatic churches do conversion therapy and such?

(30:46) Why not Side A: The Samwise Gamgee approach

(38:07) What's the difference between repression and self-control?

(45:40) Friendships: The classic trope of Japanese manga

(51:52) LGBTQ ministry: being even more "out"

(01:03:08) Bathhouse culture in Japan

(01:13:50) Looking ahead: Hope for better dialogue in Japan

(01:17:29) A post-episode conversation: On literal readings and compelling theology

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

After hearing about TJ’s previous experience at OTL (Oriented to Love), I, David, felt prompted to fly to the city of brotherly love and experience this dialogue retreat himself. God did more than I could have asked for or imagined in this sacred weekend in conversation with other Christians from diverse perspectives and backgrounds, with purposeful differences across the Side A (progressive views on faith and sexuality) and Side B (historic views on faith and sexuality) divide.

I was joined by two other friends from the retreat, Andrew Gordon and Cathie McCoy, who also share Side B perspectives, to share about their meaningful experiences connecting on deep topics of the heart. In order to bring out the most organic of connections, we were led through an intentionally structured 44 hours together in spiritual exercises and vulnerable dialogue.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) Introduction to the Bonus Episode

(02:35) Meet the Guests: Andrew and Cathie

(07:27) Preparing for the Dialogue

(11:56) Anticipations and Expectations

(17:09) The OTL Experience: Setting the Stage

(21:54) Engaging in Dialogue Across Differences in Theology

(32:31) The Power of Authentic Connections in Moments of Vulnerability

(35:12) Navigating Theological and Ethical Differences in Safe and Humble Spaces

(39:30) The Role of the Holy Spirit in Personal Growth

(44:52) Balancing Individuality and Community

(01:00:13) The Importance of Vulnerability and Being Seen

(01:06:54) Final Thoughts and Recommendations

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★ Links and References

* “Oriented to Love”: https://christiansforsocialaction.org/programs/oriented-to-love/

In conversations around Christian faith and sexuality, especially in the U.S., it can feel like everyone’s expected to pick a “side.” But it’s not the same—or at least the same lines being drawn—in other places.

In this episode, we talked with Aogu Fujihashi and Kaz Okaya about their experiences in the Japanese Christian context, where the conversation around LGBTQ+ identity looks a bit different. We talk about how a culture of conformity impacts same-sex marriage ideas in Japan, how American evangelicals influence Japanese churches, and the quiet struggles many queer Christians face in some church communities. Join us for a thoughtful look at what gets lost—or gained—in translation, on faith and sexuality, in Japan.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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About Our Guests

Aogu Fujihashi is a gay Japanese Christian who served on staff with YWAM from 2020 to 2025, after volunteering with them in the 2011 tsunami relief efforts. He focuses on helping the Japanese church have healthier conversations about LGBTQ+ issues. Aogu helped edit the Japanese translation of Two Views on Homosexuality and wrote the foreword for Wesley Hill’s Washed and Waiting. He’s passionate about creating spaces where people can experience God’s love and live whole lives. He can be found on Instagram at @aogufuji.

Kazusa Okaya is a straight Japanese Christian, translator, and PhD student at Durham University. He translated Washed and Waiting and Andrew Marin’s Love Is an Orientation into Japanese and contributed to Two Views on Homosexuality. Kaz formerly served as an IFES (International Fellowship of Evangelical Students) staff worker in Japan (KGK - “Kirisutosha Gakusei Kai", which means “Fellowship of Christian Students”). As a former staff pastor in student ministry, Kaz has been a thoughtful voice in ongoing conversations about faith and sexuality in the Japanese church. He participates in conversations on faith and sexuality at Dream Party dialogue.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #65 - Aogu Fujihashi and Kaz Okaya, Japanese Christians on Faith and Sexuality Convos

(06:09) When the Japanese Christian bookstore has zero books on LGBTQ

(17:31) Challenges of translating: "Christians who wish to be faithful..."

(31:20) "Japan is the only G7 country that hasn't legalized same-sex marriage"

(41:26) What is an "evangelical" in Japan?

(44:21) How do Christians talk about being gay in Japan? Borrow US categories?

(57:17) Japanese Christians "coming out", but rarely to a pastor

(01:00:43) Kinship beyond marriage in Japan... is mainly outside the church (gang brotherhoods?)

(01:08:16) We hope to keep dialogue open between progressive/conservative Christians

(01:13:12) Who do we choose to dialogue with? When does it cause harm?

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★ Links and References

The Bible study for LGBTQ+ and same-sex attracted people that Aogu facilitates meets every other week in Shinjuku, Tokyo. Follow on Instagram: @shinjukubaisuta

Aogu Fujihashi has an occasionally updated blog at

https://aogufujihashi.wordpress.com/

Kaz has an article in Christianity Today: Japanese Evangelicalism Was Once Nationalistic (May 2025)

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

Grace Thomas came out as a transgender woman at age 61—after decades of life as a pastor, husband, and father. That alone makes her story remarkable. But what’s even more compelling is the way she tells it: with gentleness, honesty, and deep care for the people in her life.

In this episode, Grace shares how her transition has shaped her relationships with her children and her wife, what it’s been like to remain in conversation with those who don’t fully understand or affirm her, and how her reading of Scripture has changed her approach to parenting, church, and more.

We’re particularly grateful for the gracious and curious way that Grace approaches all her conversations, and we hope you’ll join us to learn from her, no matter where you land on these topics.

About Our Guest

Grace is a committed follower of Jesus with a call to ministry. She is also a trans woman out publicly for 3 ½ years. During her 32 years as a pastor in a conservative denomination, her two youngest children came out as gay. Deeply committed to loving her sons and following Jesus, she began a long journey of rethinking faith and what it means to fully love others, especially her children and herself. Grace supports parents of LGBTQ kids through various support groups as well as pursuing community and inclusion for LGBTQ individuals in the church. You can contact her at [email protected]

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #64 - Grace Thomas: From Pentecostal Pastor to Trans Woman

(03:39) I only knew to say: "Being gay is sin."

(10:40) Coming out to myself as transgender: "I don't know" is cruel

(25:15) The wrong wedding clothes: How does it hang on the law of love?

(33:29) "Parents know if they're giving a child a fish or a rock"

(47:02) Holiness: I don't see God as "untouchable"

(58:26) A trans experience: Psalm 139

(01:10:58) A trans experience: The car parts store

(01:15:25) A trans experience: Passing as female

(01:18:38) No one can stop me from loving my neighbor

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★ Links and References

Check out a few other episodes we mentioned in this conversation:

* #32 - TJ Participated in an “Oriented to Love” Dialogue--Here Are His Thoughts

* #33 - Asking Better Questions with Oriented to Love’s Kristyn Komarnicki

* #11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★