New Kinship

David and TJ talked with Akwasi in Ghana about growing up Pentecostal while wrestling with same-sex attraction (SSA). Akwasi shares candidly about the cultural and church pressures surrounding sexuality and marriage in Ghana, and his commitment to pursuing holiness and discipleship even as his attractions remain. He also reflects on the challenges SSA Christians face in his context and his hope to support others through discipleship and community.

Note: This episode includes some comments suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.

About Our Guest: Akwasi is a Ghanaian Christian leader, creative strategist, and youth mentor passionate about discipling the next generation through faith and leadership. He is involved in building impactful initiatives that blend spiritual formation, mentorship, creativity, and community transformation, with a strong focus on young people in Ghana. He is committed to raising holistic believers and leaders who live boldly, think deeply, and influence society with conviction and excellence.

One of those initiatives is FOUND: Foundafric.org

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This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #82 - African Voices: Akwasi on Same-Sex Attraction in Ghana

(04:10) About Akwasi: Growing up in Pentecostal Africa

(06:39) Role playing mothers and fathers, other early history

(16:21) How does the church (and wider culture) in Ghana handle men “being gay” or being effeminate?

(35:27) SSA in Ghana: “Not many people name it”

(42:37) Friendships between men in U.S. compared to Ghana

(49:24) Do you pray for God to take away SSA (as a pentecostal)?

(51:38) What options does a SSA man in Ghana have? Celibacy, priest, only marriage?

(55:44) How do you think about dating (in some African culture)?

(01:03:03) Is having a best friend outside your marriage “emotional cheating”?

(01:15:59) Does Ghana have Side A? Why aren’t you Side A?

(01:22:51) Final Thoughts: Prayers for SSA men in the African Church

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★

Following up on our earlier conversations, we engage the Side B project. Yes, project. Side B is often thought of as a community of queer/SSA Christians committed to the traditional, Christian sexual ethic. But the Side B project is much bigger than just being honest about not being straight and being steadfast in our theological ethics. We review and riff of Grant Hartley’s article on this very topic.

Questions for those who listen (and actually listen, because Side B has enough online trolls who don’t engage in real dialogue and just think we’re some new edge of whatever the gay agenda is):

Are there any other aspects of the Side B project that you think we forgot mention?

Which aspect of the the Side B project most resonates with your own passions?

References:

A well-written article by our friend Grant Hartley:

Grant's Substack

What Exactly Is the Side B Project?

Okay, what follows is a fairly niche reflection on the nature of the so-called Side B community (sexual and gender minorities who submit to what is often called a “traditional sexual ethic”), but before some of my readers who are not Side B (particularly my Side A friends) check out, let me say: I do honestly believe th…

Read more

10 months ago · 32 likes · 4 comments · Grant Hartley

Time Stamps:

00:00 Good morning!01:10 Why Discuss Side B03:13 Hartley’s Essay Summary06:27 Tyler Reacts: Missing "Desire"16:51 David Frank’s Goal: Prophetic Witness23:07 Boundaries, Labels, Therapy25:49 Trans/Gender Minority Questions37:23 Worth Discussing, eh?39:47 Side B Diversity44:16 Unity Beyond Movements49:11 Prophetic Schools and Boundaries54:24 Love over Ideology, Goods before Critiques01:03:27 We can have unity on paths of celibacy, right?01:08:49 Wrap Up and Community Plug01:13:10 After-show thoughts on new Google Icons

We are glad to have Mwendia Steve Kiengu back on the podcast to hear about his ministry in Kenya and across Africa.

Found is a ministry to build a Christ-centered community walking alongside believers experiencing same-sex orientation and gender dysphoria, guiding them toward truth, love, and belonging. This is the only Side B ministry in the entire continent of Africa (Side B integrates experiences of same-sex attraction within a historic biblical sexual ethic), with an estimated 7-25 million Christians on the continent experiencing same-sex attraction. It’s a vital ministry for the African church.

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Links and social media platforms:

Found Ministry: https://foundafric.org/

Facebook: FoundAfrica

Instagram: @foundafrika

TikTok: @foundafrika1

Giving Link: https://secure.qgiv.com/for/supportfound

Steve’s Story Episode on New Kinship: #24

Have you heard of Revoice? If not, then maybe that’s because you’ve been living in the woods… or in the closet. Come tune in and hear an update on what’s going on at the Revoice Conference and beyond from Revoice's founder and President, Nate Collins. TJ, Tyler, and David get to hear from Nate about the changes in the ministry over the years, including the change in the scope of the ministry as it relates to gender minorities. Towards the end they each share about what’s special about Revoice Conference and why they keep coming back.

https://www.revoice.org/

The whole gang talked with Erin Moniz—Baylor University chaplain, Anglican deacon, and author of the excellent book Knowing and Being Known—about developing a Christian theology of intimacy. Erin’s approach to intimacy offers as a valuable critique for our culture’s obsession with romance and sex. Even more importantly, she offers a positive theological vision, exploring how friendships, family, and community relationships can become primary places where we are known, loved, and formed in Christ—with specific thoughts for queer/same-sex-attracted Side B Christians. We hope you’ll give this episode, and Erin’s book, a listen!

About Our Guest

Rev. Erin F. Moniz (DMin, Trinity School for Ministry) is a deacon in the Anglican Church in North America and Associate Chaplain and Director for Chapel at Baylor University, where she disciples emerging adults and journeys with them toward healthy, gospel-centered relationships. You can find her at erinfmoniz.com.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand for specific Christian perspectives on gay/queer sexuality. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #81 - Hope for All Our Intimate Relationships, with Erin Moniz

(03:11) Erin’s background, serving emerging adults, Side B connections

(07:32) “We lack a robust theology of intimacy”

(15:03) “I can live without sex, but I cannot live without intimacy”

(18:53) Romance idolatry leads to hypersexualization

(22:57) What’s the difference: “Romance” vs. “Intimacy”?

(28:22) When values conflict: autonomy vs. vulnerability

(33:29) How AI bots could shape our intimacy

(37:12) Can intimate relationships be “economic” also?

(47:03) Are queer Christians better at healthy relationships?

(52:36) Your advice to: “I’m falling in love with my friends”

(01:01:15) Encouragement: You were made for intimacy on purpose by God

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★ Links and References

Knowing and Being Known: Hope for All Our Intimate Relationships (IVP ): www.ivpress.com/knowing-and-being-known

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★

In light of the Colorado Supreme Court case Charles v. Salazar and prior conversation with Julia Sadusky and other conversations with Side X guests, we dig into Conversion Therapy (also called Reparative or Reintegrative Therapy), particularly how it intersects notions around the fluidity of sexuality. Reports on sexual fluidity opens new questions to the ethics of conversation therapies, and maybe different analysis has to why the “change is possible” narratives (e.g. Exodus Ministries) were so destructive. But maybe alternative approaches like “bisexual responsiveness” via Camille Paglia (see the linked Cracks in Postmodernity essay) suggest a different outlook on the whole affair, and open doors to intriguing considerations of the queer experience and same-sex friendship/romantic friendship.

References:

A fascinating article with so many intriguing quotes:

Cracks in Postmodernity: Conversion Therapy vs. Bisexual Responsiveness

Our episodes about/with Side X guests:

#54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship

#48 - What Is Transformation? with Agape First Ministries

#41 - Unexpected Shifts: Josh’s Story of Prayer, Healing, and Attraction

#35 - Marco Casanova on Integration, Healing, and Orientation

Time Stamps:

00:00 Have you thought of joining us at Revoice?

02:31 Kinship Lab on Conversion Therapy

04:09 Sexual Fluidity Debate

06:33 Tyler’s Harvard Story

10:46 Exodus and Pray Away Documentary

14:39 Modern Reorientation Claims

19:14 Identity Versus Desire/Attraction

24:25 Side B Growth and Chastity

28:19 Defining Attraction, Sanctification and Bisexual Responsiveness

35:36 On Noticing Beauty and Desire

40:53 Paglia and Rigid Labels

45:50 Sexual Category Origins, Queer Identity, and Fluidity

51:29 Friendship Versus Therapy

57:14 Chastity and Same Sex Love

01:04:35 Romantic Friendship Debate

01:06:07 Humility and Closing Thoughts

Our friend Neth is a father, grandfather, and licensed counselor—and at the first Revoice conference in 2018, he came out to himself as gay, at the age of 54. In this episode, Neth reflected on growing up in an abusive Christian home and how this experience shaped decades of his life. Speaking both personally and professionally, he talked with us about mixed-orientation marriages, why naming yourself “gay” isn’t merely negative self-talk but an act of honesty, and why he ultimately finds Side B compelling. See also (01:05:42): Neth’s advice for people considering therapy.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” and “Side X” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.” But just briefly, here’s how people often use these terms:

* “Side A” generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.

Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Beyond that agreement, in essence:

* “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience using a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic.

* ”Side X” tends to emphasize the idea that sexual orientation can change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being “ex gay.”

* “Side Y” tends to avoid any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being “gay.”

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #80 - Neth’s Story: Coming Out of the Closet at 54

(03:44) About Neth; and coming out after 54 years

(18:46) Suppressing or repressing, and walking “normally”

(31:41) A mixed orientation marriage, “arousal templates”

(43:55) Healing looks like accepting myself

(50:03) Gay marriage can’t produce babies

(57:09) Is saying I’m gay “negative self talk,” or a map of reality?

(01:00:45) Seeking church family

(01:05:42) Encouragements for listeners: Get in therapy

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Logan Morrison is a trans man who leads Kaleidoscope’s trans outreach ministry in New York City. Logan talked with TJ and Tyler about coming out as trans and losing a job over it, and how Christian gospel and Christian communities had positive and negative impacts on him and many others. Tune in also for conversations about: how we distinguish experiences of gender vs. sexuality (”are you trans, or are you just lesbian?”), barriers for trans people in churches (exclusion, pronouns, bathrooms, stereotypes), and some practical steps for Christians wanting to serve and engage trans people (whether or not they’re Christians).

About Our Guest: Logan (he/him) serves as the Trans Care Specialist and Community Outreach Coordinator at Kaleidoscope Ministries, where he walks alongside trans individuals with compassion, advocacy, and faith-centered support. Through unexpected turns in his own journey, Logan discerned a calling to steward his trans experience as a bridge for creating space to share the hope of the gospel with other trans folks in authentic and relational ways. He lives in NYC with his chosen family and three dogs.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #79 - Logan Morrison on Practical Steps for Reaching the Transgender Community

(01:56) About Logan

(03:45) Moving into trans ministry with Kaleidoscope

(10:35) Coming to a definition of “trans”--and of the gospel

(19:54) Barriers and misunderstandings: Being asked to leave, politicization

(26:51) What’s the difference between sexuality and gender experience?

(35:17) How’d you decide you were trans and not lesbian?

(49:56) How my theology leads loving outreach to trans people

(52:24) Advice to Christians wanting to engage/support trans people

(59:44) What gives me hope: Some trans people don’t have baggage with the gospel

(01:03:30) Words for trans listeners

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★ Links and References

Ragamuffin Gospel: https://www.amazon.com/Ragamuffin-Gospel-Brennan-Manning/dp/1576737160

Kaleidoscope USA: https://www.kaleidoscopeusa.org/

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Tyler Parker, David Frank, and TJ introduce a new monthly-ish podcast format called the Kinship Lab, created to reflect on recent interviews/events or other emerging ideas. Comment below on any questions or topics you’d like to see in the future.

In this first Kinship Lab, they reflect on a recent two-day summit of a handful of Side B leaders, emphasizing growing capacity for fruitful conversation amid differences and experienced trauma. Questions at play: What is Side B? How should Side B engage trans and gender-dysphoria experiences theologically and pastorally? How can Side B respond to ongoing debates about celibate partnerships? Can Side B leadership develop breadth, depth, accountability, and maybe even create a common covenant? Is Side B a gift for Q/SSA people, or for the whole church?

00:00 Welcome to Kinship Lab

02:23 Future of Side B | Why Call It Project

04:25 Summit Setup and Hopes

05:18 Building Trust Through Tension

09:47 Defining Side B Today

14:11 Gender Questions Rising

17:16 Celibate Partnerships Debate

18:53 Learning From Experts

24:01 Global Voices Needed

26:38 Leader Accountability and Unity

29:51 Movement Longevity and Visibility

32:00 Towards a Side B Covenant

33:28 Gender and Queer Culture

35:24 Unity and Accountability

40:57 Why Statements Matter

42:56 Side B as Liberatory Gift

44:45 Theology Group Takeaways

51:44 Closing and Next Topics

55:14 Listener Feedback and Farewell

Eve Tushnet (writer and cofounder of Building Catholic Futures) joined Tyler, TJ, and David to talk about forms of kinship beyond marriage—specifically vows of friendship or lifelong celibate partnership. Eve reflects on her own journey to Catholicism, to serving the church as a gay Christian, and to discerning a lifelong partnership herself.

★ About Our Guest

Eve Tushnet is the author of two award-winning books on gay Christians' spiritual journeys. She is the co-founder of Building Catholic Futures, which equips Catholic institutions to serve and share the Gospel with gay people. She lives in California with her partner and children. You can email Eve at [email protected].

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #78 - Eve Tushnet on Catholic Discipleship and Vows of Partnership

(00:34) Eve’s background: Secular Jewish to gay Catholic

(02:55) Building Catholic Futures for mission, for leadership

(08:07) Core ideas: Spiritual journeys, perspectives, and storytelling

(15:16) Churches: What small things can build trust?

(18:13) Imagining a future of kinship beyond marriage

(27:05) What to do with the rarity of vowed friendship

(34:09) How Eve met her partner

(39:56) How do you think about “romance” in your celibate partnership?

(48:43) Children? Taking responsibility for each other’s families

(54:13) Are you sisters? Friends? Life partners? Kin?

(57:21) Clergy to support your making of vows?

(58:18) Loving people means choosing pain

(01:07:58) Advice for people discerning kinships and partnerships

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★ Links and References

Building Catholic Futures: https://buildingcatholic.org/

Tenderness (2021): https://www.avemariapress.com/products/tenderness

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Eve’s photo: Anthony Esser | Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★