My recent friend Faith, who I met at an OTL Dialogue, has a gift for questions. So when Faith expressed interest in asking me about my community living situation, I was grateful she was up for recording our call, because she’s a careful thinker who understands systems from a deep rootedness in the organic nature of community and personhood. And boy, did she make me think and reflect.

Leaving our conversation, I’m left with questions for how to make my community house wiser, more developed, more mature. I’m left wondering how we can develop rituals of modifying our covenant, rituals of remembering our values and vision, on staying attuned to different nodes of awareness on the health of the community, and on encouraging multiple nodes of community ownership.

(00:00) Introductions

(03:38) Foundations of Intentional Community

(08:58) Values and Practices in Community Living

(16:17) Conflict Resolution and Community Dynamics

(28:11) Navigating Household Dynamics, Clutter, and Values

(29:50) Leadership Challenges for Enneagram 2s

(32:25) Balancing External and Internal Responsibilities

(40:45) The Process of Housemate Transitions

(44:15) Future Aspirations and Neighborhood Integration

In this bonus review episode of Revoice 2025, TJ and David (and a couple friends at the end) discuss their experiences at the recent Revoice 2025 conference held in Seattle, Washington. What we forgot to mention in the recording was how incredible the “Build” theme was this year, as the different main speakers walked us through Nehemiah and Art really hit it out of the ballpark with his exhortations for the Side B community (and its friends and allies) to get to work seeking the Kingdom of God. It was powerful.

Some highlights mentioned included the various speakers (including Mwendia, Wesley Hill, Anna Carter from Eden Invitation, and Julia Sadusky), the worship team led by Wes, and spaces to make meaningful connections. We offer a couple tips to attendees for making future conferences enjoyable (like affinity groups, communal living arrangements).

Check out Revoice for next year! https://www.revoice.org/

In LGBT and Christian communities, Ron Koustas has seen a lot. When his longtime partner was diagnosed with AIDS—in the early years before life-saving medications were available—Ron became his partner’s caregiver. As he revisited the Christian faith of his youth, Ron eventually joined and then served in ministries to gay folks in New York City. He’s seen ex-gay churches try to help people “become straight.” He’s seen churches love gay people well, and also poorly. He’s been part of several close “chosen families.” He’s been asked hurtful questions, been defended by church people, been asked to defend himself, and has continued to serve and support fellow believers through the process.

We are fascinated by Ron’s story over the years and encouraged by his continued, joyful pursuit of Jesus and his church.

★ About Our Guest

Ron Koustas, now retired from federal service, has spent over 30 years leading AIDS outreach efforts in NYC and Northern NJ churches, including playing a pivotal role in Hope For New York’s AIDS Ministry. His ministry has been featured in Christianity Today’s Leadership Journal and Michael Slaughter’s book unLearning Church. More recently, prompted by pastoral encouragement, Ron has embraced the Side B community and now actively engages with younger members through his NJ Revoice Chapter. He continues to serve as a breakout speaker at the annual Revoice Conference.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #67 - Ron Koustas's Testimony of Staying: Caregiving and Church Ministry in the AIDS Crisis

(01:42) Ron's story: supporting his gay partner with AIDS

(21:07) "Ex-gay" church ministries: "Are you gay or a Christian?"

(30:42) Moving out of ex-gay spaces and into Revoice circles

(45:15) What is good (still?) about loving your partner?

(52:28) Joining a new church: "If you're gay, what are you doing here?"

(57:21) Advice for feeling settled, chosen families

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

In Japan, where Christians are a minority and “being gay” carries some different cultural meanings than it does in the US, Aogu Fujihashi offers to LGBTQ people the support and discipleship he would have wanted to receive as a teenager. This week, David and TJ talk with Aogu about Japanese Christianity, his journey toward a Side B understanding of faith and sexuality, his spiritual influences (from Augustine to Calvin to Piper and more), and his LGBTQ+ ministry in Tokyo.

Also: Japanese bathhouse culture! We learned some things.

We appreciate Aogu’s deep care for the church in Japan, and his desire for open dialogue rather than hostility—wherever you find yourself on these questions, we hope you’ll join us in listening and learning from each other.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ About Our Guest

Aogu Fujihashi is a gay Japanese Christian who served on staff with YWAM from 2020 to 2025, after volunteering with them in the 2011 tsunami relief efforts. He focuses on helping the Japanese church have healthier conversations about LGBTQ+ issues. Aogu helped edit the Japanese translation of Two Views on Homosexuality and wrote the foreword for Wesley Hill’s Washed and Waiting. He’s passionate about creating spaces where people can experience God’s love and live whole lives. He can be found on Instagram at @aogufuji.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #66 - Wrestling with Faith and Sexuality in Japan: Aogu Fujihashi’s Journey | 信仰とセクシュアリティの葛藤：藤橋仰さんの証し

(00:26) "When I realized I was gay..."

(12:39) A spiritual lineage of God's heart for the world

(21:35) Don't charismatic churches do conversion therapy and such?

(30:46) Why not Side A: The Samwise Gamgee approach

(38:07) What's the difference between repression and self-control?

(45:40) Friendships: The classic trope of Japanese manga

(51:52) LGBTQ ministry: being even more "out"

(01:03:08) Bathhouse culture in Japan

(01:13:50) Looking ahead: Hope for better dialogue in Japan

(01:17:29) A post-episode conversation: On literal readings and compelling theology

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

After hearing about TJ’s previous experience at OTL (Oriented to Love), I, David, felt prompted to fly to the city of brotherly love and experience this dialogue retreat himself. God did more than I could have asked for or imagined in this sacred weekend in conversation with other Christians from diverse perspectives and backgrounds, with purposeful differences across the Side A (progressive views on faith and sexuality) and Side B (historic views on faith and sexuality) divide.

I was joined by two other friends from the retreat, Andrew Gordon and Cathie McCoy, who also share Side B perspectives, to share about their meaningful experiences connecting on deep topics of the heart. In order to bring out the most organic of connections, we were led through an intentionally structured 44 hours together in spiritual exercises and vulnerable dialogue.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) Introduction to the Bonus Episode

(02:35) Meet the Guests: Andrew and Cathie

(07:27) Preparing for the Dialogue

(11:56) Anticipations and Expectations

(17:09) The OTL Experience: Setting the Stage

(21:54) Engaging in Dialogue Across Differences in Theology

(32:31) The Power of Authentic Connections in Moments of Vulnerability

(35:12) Navigating Theological and Ethical Differences in Safe and Humble Spaces

(39:30) The Role of the Holy Spirit in Personal Growth

(44:52) Balancing Individuality and Community

(01:00:13) The Importance of Vulnerability and Being Seen

(01:06:54) Final Thoughts and Recommendations

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★ Links and References

* “Oriented to Love”: https://christiansforsocialaction.org/programs/oriented-to-love/

In conversations around Christian faith and sexuality, especially in the U.S., it can feel like everyone’s expected to pick a “side.” But it’s not the same—or at least the same lines being drawn—in other places.

In this episode, we talked with Aogu Fujihashi and Kaz Okaya about their experiences in the Japanese Christian context, where the conversation around LGBTQ+ identity looks a bit different. We talk about how a culture of conformity impacts same-sex marriage ideas in Japan, how American evangelicals influence Japanese churches, and the quiet struggles many queer Christians face in some church communities. Join us for a thoughtful look at what gets lost—or gained—in translation, on faith and sexuality, in Japan.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

—

About Our Guests

Aogu Fujihashi is a gay Japanese Christian who served on staff with YWAM from 2020 to 2025, after volunteering with them in the 2011 tsunami relief efforts. He focuses on helping the Japanese church have healthier conversations about LGBTQ+ issues. Aogu helped edit the Japanese translation of Two Views on Homosexuality and wrote the foreword for Wesley Hill’s Washed and Waiting. He’s passionate about creating spaces where people can experience God’s love and live whole lives. He can be found on Instagram at @aogufuji.

Kazusa Okaya is a straight Japanese Christian, translator, and PhD student at Durham University. He translated Washed and Waiting and Andrew Marin’s Love Is an Orientation into Japanese and contributed to Two Views on Homosexuality. Kaz formerly served as an IFES (International Fellowship of Evangelical Students) staff worker in Japan (KGK - “Kirisutosha Gakusei Kai", which means “Fellowship of Christian Students”). As a former staff pastor in student ministry, Kaz has been a thoughtful voice in ongoing conversations about faith and sexuality in the Japanese church. He participates in conversations on faith and sexuality at Dream Party dialogue.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #65 - Aogu Fujihashi and Kaz Okaya, Japanese Christians on Faith and Sexuality Convos

(06:09) When the Japanese Christian bookstore has zero books on LGBTQ

(17:31) Challenges of translating: "Christians who wish to be faithful..."

(31:20) "Japan is the only G7 country that hasn't legalized same-sex marriage"

(41:26) What is an "evangelical" in Japan?

(44:21) How do Christians talk about being gay in Japan? Borrow US categories?

(57:17) Japanese Christians "coming out", but rarely to a pastor

(01:00:43) Kinship beyond marriage in Japan... is mainly outside the church (gang brotherhoods?)

(01:08:16) We hope to keep dialogue open between progressive/conservative Christians

(01:13:12) Who do we choose to dialogue with? When does it cause harm?

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★ Links and References

The Bible study for LGBTQ+ and same-sex attracted people that Aogu facilitates meets every other week in Shinjuku, Tokyo. Follow on Instagram: @shinjukubaisuta

Aogu Fujihashi has an occasionally updated blog at

https://aogufujihashi.wordpress.com/

Kaz has an article in Christianity Today: Japanese Evangelicalism Was Once Nationalistic (May 2025)

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

Grace Thomas came out as a transgender woman at age 61—after decades of life as a pastor, husband, and father. That alone makes her story remarkable. But what’s even more compelling is the way she tells it: with gentleness, honesty, and deep care for the people in her life.

In this episode, Grace shares how her transition has shaped her relationships with her children and her wife, what it’s been like to remain in conversation with those who don’t fully understand or affirm her, and how her reading of Scripture has changed her approach to parenting, church, and more.

We’re particularly grateful for the gracious and curious way that Grace approaches all her conversations, and we hope you’ll join us to learn from her, no matter where you land on these topics.

About Our Guest

Grace is a committed follower of Jesus with a call to ministry. She is also a trans woman out publicly for 3 ½ years. During her 32 years as a pastor in a conservative denomination, her two youngest children came out as gay. Deeply committed to loving her sons and following Jesus, she began a long journey of rethinking faith and what it means to fully love others, especially her children and herself. Grace supports parents of LGBTQ kids through various support groups as well as pursuing community and inclusion for LGBTQ individuals in the church. You can contact her at [email protected]

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #64 - Grace Thomas: From Pentecostal Pastor to Trans Woman

(03:39) I only knew to say: "Being gay is sin."

(10:40) Coming out to myself as transgender: "I don't know" is cruel

(25:15) The wrong wedding clothes: How does it hang on the law of love?

(33:29) "Parents know if they're giving a child a fish or a rock"

(47:02) Holiness: I don't see God as "untouchable"

(58:26) A trans experience: Psalm 139

(01:10:58) A trans experience: The car parts store

(01:15:25) A trans experience: Passing as female

(01:18:38) No one can stop me from loving my neighbor

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★ Links and References

Check out a few other episodes we mentioned in this conversation:

* #32 - TJ Participated in an “Oriented to Love” Dialogue--Here Are His Thoughts

* #33 - Asking Better Questions with Oriented to Love’s Kristyn Komarnicki

* #11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

In this bonus episode, we chat with Mike Vick about the American Solidarity Party. We explore the party's foundations, which are influenced by Christian democratic values and Catholic Social Teaching. Their thorough set of ethical platforms grounded in human dignity, the common good, and solidarity (in a way that neither Democratic nor Republican parties are offering!!) would really be a breath of fresh air in American politics!

Mike Vick is the founder of the Liberation Caucus in the American Solidarity Party. The episode delves into Mike's personal and political journey, his stance on social and economic issues, and the challenges within the party, particularly concerning LGBT topics. Come join us as we think about the role of civic pluralism in US politics.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) Welcome Mike Vick from the American Solidarity Party

(01:50) LGBTQ Topics and Side B Perspective

(04:10) Mike Vick's Background and Political Journey

(15:51) Solidarity Party's Principles and Inclusivity

(19:15) Distributism and Economic Democracy

(26:33) Pro-Life Stance and Social Issues

(28:32) Platforms and Opinions on LGBTQ+ Issues

(32:29) Three Camps within the Party

(36:07) Party Challenges and Tensions

(42:43) Liberation Caucus and Party Dynamics

(49:23) Political Theology and Civic Pluralism

(52:14) How to Get Active

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★ Links and References in This Episode

* ASP Liberation Caucus: www.liberationasp.org

* Mike’s Linktree: linktr.ee/votevickusa

* American Solidarity Party

* www.solidarity-party.org/platform

* linktr.ee/liberationasp

* The Servile State by Hilaire Belloc (1912)

* Toward a Truly Free Market: A Distributist Perspective on the Role of Government,

Taxes, Health Care, Deficits, and More by John Medaille (2011)

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

What if friendship—not romance, not marriage—were the central relationship in your life?

That’s the question Rhaina Cohen asks in her book The Other Significant Others. And wow, do we love this book. David, TJ, and Elena sat down with Rhaina to talk about what it would mean to build a life around deep, committed friendship—and why our current relationship hierarchy (romantic > everything else) might be due for a rethink.

Once you start centering friendship, it starts disrupting many other assumptions. We talked about: what it looks like to live near your friends, how parenting could look different, what happens when friends make commitments, when other people don’t recognize those commitments, and whether secular folks should borrow a few ideas from monks.

Join us and—if you haven’t already—go read the book!

About Our Guest

Rhaina Cohen is an award-winning editor for the NPR documentary podcast Embedded and the author of the national bestseller, The Other Significant Others: Reimagining Life with Friendship at the Center, which Trevor Noah described as "my new Bible." Her writing on social connection has appeared in The Atlantic, The New York Times, The Washington Post and has been supported by the National Endowment for the Humanities. Rhaina's recent TED talk on the untapped potential of friendship has been viewed more than half a million times. She lives in Washington, D.C. with her husband and close friends.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) Why we were excited to interview Rhaina Cohen

(04:17) Rhaina Cohen: "Reimagining life with friendship at the center"

(10:27) Deconstruction and reconstruction: You can't be what you can't see

(19:10) Live Near Friends

(24:52) Conflicts in friendships: needing language, recognition

(28:29) Parenting doesn't have to be exhausting

(37:00) Can we TEACH better relationship skills?

(41:33) Covenant relationships: "You can be committed to someone and not be sleeping with them"

(47:04) Would secular people benefit from monastic models?

(55:03) What's next? Monogamy, marriage vows, and more

(01:01:52) Recommended readings from Rhaina and more

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★ Links and References

“A Grand Experiment in Parenthood and Friendship” by Rhaina Cohen (The Atlantic, 2025)

Live Near Friends: livenearfriends.com

Super Nuclear: supernuclear.substack.com

Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make—and Keep—Friends by Marissa Franco (2022)

Modern Friendship: How to Nurture Our Most Valued Connections by Anna Goldfarb (2024):

Stay True, a memoir by Hua Hsu (2023)

First Love: Essays on Friendship by Lily Dancyger (2024)

Invisibilia (NPR) series on friendship, especially: Nun of Us Are Friends, Esther Perel gives Therapy with Friends

Follow Rhaina: Related on Substack, @RhainaCohen on Instagram

TJ’s Story (New Kinship episode #6): “TJ's Story | Dysphoria, Queerness, Contextualization, and Conviction”

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

I mean, I don’t know you. Maybe you didn’t grow up in an evangelical Christian subculture. But if you did, there’s a high likelihood that the ideas you absorbed about how men and women behave—and what it even means to be masculine or feminine—were influenced heavily by C.S Lewis’ famous Space Trilogy: Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength.

On this fascinating episode, Kathryn Wagner (returning guest and medieval lit scholar) and Robin Harris (writer and incoming seminarian) stopped by to evaluate Lewis’ takes on gender against both more modern feminist sensibilities and much older writers and theologians in the Christian tradition.

You should absolutely join us.

★ About Our Guests:

Robin Harris is a North Carolina based freelance writer and editor who specializes in Bible curriculum. She is on the board of the Davenant Institute. Her writing has appeared in Mere Orthodoxy, Ad Fontes, and the Theopolis Institute. As of Fall 2025, she will be a student at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary (MATS, 2027). She writes at robinjeanharris.substack.com/ and can be reached at robinjeanharris [at] gmail.com.

Kathryn Wagner is the Director of Academic Programming at the Center for Christianity and Scholarship at Duke University. She studies the literature and religious culture of the late Middle Ages and teaches courses that aim to form students in virtue through the practices of the liberal arts. She can be reached at kathryn [at] mogkwagner.net.—

★ Timestamps

(00:00) #62 - Evangelicals' Gender Ideas Came from C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy - with Robin Harris and Kathryn Wagner

(04:20) Evangelicals who leaned on C.S. Lewis and the Space Trilogy

(13:12) The Space Trilogy tackles gender

(24:46) But can archetypes live in the real world?

(38:44) God does not have a body: Metaphors in Christian scripture

(53:28) Confusion and contraception are tied together

(01:00:58) God as our mother?

(01:06:39) Lewis's thinking evolution: widening the gender box

(01:24:44) Replacing theoretical masculinity and femininity with real friendships

(01:33:24) What would Lewis think of today's transgender conversation?

(01:40:31) In the Christian tradition on gender, Lewis is the test run—

★ Links and References

These well-read people dropped a lot of names and references. For your ease of Google searching, here are the ones we caught:

John and Stasi Eldridge (books: Wild at Heart, Captivating), Jordan Peterson Jungian thinking, Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, Elisabeth Elliot (book: Let Me Be a Woman), complementarianism and egalitarianism, Michael Ward (book: Planet Narnia), apophatic theology, platonic forms and Aristotle’s hylomorphism, Thomistic/ Thomas=Thomas Aquinas, Pope John Paul II (book/writings: Theology of the Body), Anselm of Canterbury talked about God as our mother, Julian of Norwich said a similar thing; Joy Davidman, Dorothy Sayers, philosopher Elizabeth Anscombe, Sister Penelope Lawson, Ruth Pitter, C. S. Lewis (books: The Four Loves, A Grief Observed), Kevin Vanhoozer (theologian).—

★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship —

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★