Note: This episode includes a brief mention of suicide and community response to it.

As the child of a Korean pastor and raised in North America, Stephen Shim has been wrestling with coming to terms with being, in his words, “a minority of a minority of a minority”—a gay, Korean Christian. Stephen is a leader in the “B-sian” group—a community of Asian, Side B Christians that developed from the Revoice annual conference.

Now in his late 30s, Stephen has continued to walk down the path of his life with a bit more peace and a bit less wrestling, while trying to love God and love others as best as he can. You can contact him on X/Twitter or Bluesky: skshim.bsky.social.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #56 - Stephen Shim's B-sian Story: Being Gay, Korean-Canadian, and a Side B Christian

(02:11) Growing up: Dad was a pastor, Mom was often sick

(20:47) "Are you gay? Or are you Asian?"

(42:28) Talking to my father about sexuality

(53:28) Why side B? Reading scripture literally, familial obligations

(56:51) Finding Side B through Revoice: "I do not like new things"

(01:04:54) The B-sian Origin Story

(01:20:59) "Why does this guy keep talking about race?"

(01:26:25) How are multicultural spaces supportive, or not?

(01:32:45) How can people connect with you?

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

If you’ve never heard of Life on Side B—the podcast that in many ways inspired this one—today is your day! We interviewed Josh and Ashley on their ending season, where Side B could evolve, and how LoSB podcast was almost named “Unicorns for Jesus”.

And THEN…head on over to Life on Side B to listen to David and TJ’s reflections on interviewing people with diverse views and where Side B conversations are evolving. Listen to the other half of this episode here: www.lifeonsideb.com/episodes/episode/1d868a02/s6e1-or-tj-and-david-on-new-kinship-and-the-future-of-side-b-crossover-episode

Comments on how LoSB impacted you? Send your audio message to LoSB here: https://www.lifeonsideb.com/finalseason

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand an incredible amount. If you’re new to the conversation, I don’t know what to tell you. Welcome! And you might want to check out:

* New Kinship’s episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

* Life on Side B’s explainer article: The Four Sides

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★ About Our Guests

Josh was born and raised in South Florida. He is the creator and producer of Life on Side B, a podcast exploring the joys, beauty, and challenges of living the traditional sexual ethic as LGBT+/same sex attracted Christians. He is a spiritual director and inclusion consultant with a private practice called Wholly Ourselves, and he is a pastor at his local church, Providencia WPB. He holds a DMin from Kairos University and a MA in Biblical Literature from Nyack College. In his spare time, you can normally find Josh doing one of three things: hosting friends at his home with his family, watching Golden Girls, or working out.

Ashley is a queer woman in a mixed-orientation marriage of over a decade and has a three-year-old son. She and her husband met on the mission field in Latin America with Youth With A Mission and currently reside in the southern United States.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) New Kinship #55 - Life on Side B's Final Season, with Josh and Ashley

(01:48) At the time, there weren't any Side B podcasts

(05:52) Episodes that changed us: Telling our vulnerable stories

(08:56) Why is Life on Side B ending?

(13:16) What Josh and Ashley learned in 5 seasons

(19:57) Where should the Side B movement go?

(26:45) Josh's upcoming podcast(s) and work!

(30:53) Ashley's work with Your Other...Family?

(34:01) Send a message to LoSB folks!

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

TJ and David were interviewed on Joel Carini’s podcast, the Natural Theologian, a previous guest of ours, to discuss the role of marriage, family, other significant others, covenants, Side B perspectives on kinship, and more!

Check it out!

Jason Thompson leads Portland Fellowship, a Christian organization pursuing freedom from “homosexuality and transgender confusion” through Christ. In our terms, Jason’s org is “Side X” and we are “Side B”. Jason himself has thought a bit about the various positions in the faith + sexuality debate, and he has his own description of four “sides”. Between these groupings are some seemingly wide gaps in how we, as Christians, think about sexual orientation, restoration, brokenness, and identities… tough stuff, but we are grateful for Jason’s willingness to talk about our differences as Christians.

About Our Guest: Jason Thompson experienced unwanted same sex desires in his youth, and discovered Portland Fellowship in 1989, where he received discipleship and loving support to find the freedom he was seeking. Jason now serves as executive director of Portland Fellowship; he holds a master's degree in counseling from Western Seminary and is an ordained minister. Jason and his wife Amy live outside of Portland with their two sons.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out our episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship

(00:43) About Jason and Portland Fellowship

(03:29) Clarifying Side B/X and Jason's chart

(17:24) Defining: male and female in the image of God

(20:45) Defining: sexual orientation, homosexuality

(32:50) Defining: "repentance from lust"

(34:06) Defining: gay and straight

(43:18) Juxtaposing Side X ("Rebuild") and Side B ("Resist") - change, role of marriage

(51:58) Change is possible--but what kind of change?

(01:08:39) We (all of us) don't police language

(01:11:54) "Should that person still hold a gay label when all that has changed in their life?"

(01:16:22) Wrapping up: Final thoughts

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★ Links and References

* Jason’s 4 Views PDF: “Differing Views on Christian Doctrine, Identity and Homosexuality”

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com★

Content warning: This episode includes discussions of suicidality.

Simon Kent Fung is the creator and host of Dear Alana, a limited series podcast telling the story of Alana Chen, a devoutly Catholic young woman who wrestled with same-sex attraction alongside her faith before taking her own life in 2019. Simon found that Alana's journey with the Catholic faith and conversion therapies paralleled his own story in notable ways. On this episode, we talked with Simon about his experience of conversion therapy or “reparative therapy” for LGBTQ Christian people, the expectations and harms that accompany it, and what a healthy spiritual journey and community could be.

Learn more about the podcast Dear Alana at http://dearalana.com.

Learn more about Simon at http://simonkentfung.com.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #53 - Conversion Therapy's Legacy, with Simon Kent Fung from "Dear Alana”

(02:20) The story of Dear Alana

(13:28) Unpacking conversion/reparative therapy

(28:24) Therapy: what we expect, what good things we need?

(43:52) Leaving conversion therapy, identifying harms

(55:23) Thinking now about "sexual orientation" as a concept

(01:01:56) Finding a healthier spirituality through community

(01:11:00) What, to you, is a good sexual ethic these days?

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Our reasons for changing our name. Including: discussions of kinship, old and new commandments, belonging, mutual solidarity, and more.

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, or support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Pastor Shalom is a multi-national Nigerian in a mixed-orientation marriage now in pastoral ministry. She has a profound journey of faith, marriage, and understanding her sexual identity. We were moved by her story and the strength of her love for God and others, so we asked her to share it with you all. Whether you see yourself in her story or are listening to learn about someone whose journey is very different from your own—we hope it’s an encouragement to you, too!

★ About Our Guest

Pastor Shalom Liddick was born in Nigeria and spent some of her youth in Central America before moving to the United States. Her diverse background and rich cultural heritage have shaped her perspective on life and faith. She is most passionate about walking alongside others as they experience the sweetness found in Jesus. She considers herself a practicing theologian.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #52 - Affectionate towards Christ: A Journey of Faith with Pastor Shalom

(02:15) Pastor Shalom's story

(16:46) God became my everything

(28:56) Who is my identifier?

(36:31) Revoice: Little gifts of love from God

(43:00) Conversations in the African diaspora: upholding (all?) Scripture

(48:36) Attraction and mixed-orientation marriage

(54:20) Not sexualizing relationships

(58:53) Advice for those considering marriage?

(01:01:36) What do you tell your kids?

(01:04:14) Remember whose we are: LGBT gifts to the church

(01:11:40) "We all have the same Father"

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin P., gavinpopkenart.com ★

David Bennett has a lot to say about erotic relationships with God—but it’s probably not what you think! As a former atheistic gay activist now turned celibate gay theologian and follower of Jesus, David’s reflections on Christian sexuality and discipleship are both personal and deeply informed by Christian historical tradition. David sat down with TJ and David Frank to talk about a theology of desire, Christian thinkers from Augustine to Aquinas to today, Side B activism, and practical discipleship for Christians today. Join us!

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides” in our conversation: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ About Our Guest

Dr. David Bennett recently completed his doctorate (DPhil) in theology at Oxford University where he now works as a postdoctoral research fellow in the Theology and Religion Faculty. His thesis is in the process of being published, tentatively entitled, Queering the Queer: A Theological Ethics of Same-Sex Desire and Gay Celibacy in Contemporary Anglican Thought. He specializes in the relationship between the Trinity, Christian ethics, patristics, queer theology, discipleship and contemporary Anglican theology, especially the role of desire in knowing God. David also serves as a theologian in residence at Reality San Francisco and Church of the City, New York, and an Associate Research Fellow at Wycliffe Hall. Find him on Instagram or X (@DavidACBennett) or on his website at dacbennett.com.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) Introduction(s)

(05:00) The heart desires, the will chooses, the mind justifies

(16:11) "You're just denying your sexuality" - defining “erotic”

(25:45) How many kinds of love are there?

(33:04) Eros and fear-of (or "Lutheran pietistic excess")

(44:25) We need more Side B activism

(56:58) What's going on with the Church of England?

(01:13:20) Beyond an “ethic”: pursuing personal integration

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★ Links and References

Eros and Agape (1930, 1936) by Anders Nygren (Wikipedia)

Deus Caritas est (2005), Pope Benedict XVI (Wikipedia)

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support…

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin P. ★

Announcement: Hey ya’ll! We have a new podcast name! Welcome to New Kinship, formerly known as Communion and Shalom. We felt it was time for a more specifically focused name, with the same goal of focusing on the ways we belong to each other as Christians, as brothers and sisters, in the complexities of sexuality, ethnicity, and living in community. Join us as we wade into those complexities with people we both agree and disagree with.

For our fiftieth episode (!), we’re sharing a recording from a workshop we gave at Revoice 2024 this year (a conference and ministry for queer/same-sex-attracted/LGBT Side B Christians who are seeking to support and encourage gay, lesbian, bisexual, and other same-sex attracted Christians—as well as those who love them—so that all in the Church might be empowered to live in gospel unity while observing the historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality).

Join us as we talk about two significant topics that we don’t hear discussed very much: kinship in lay, intentional Christian communities, and kinship in covenant brotherhoods and sisterhoods, celibate partnerships, and committed friendships. They’re historical, deeply Christian, radical, and somehow also totally normal—even if you’ve never heard of them till now.

Check it out on Substack or YouTube if you’d like to see the slides we shared!

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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Timestamps

(0:00) (Re)Discovering Kinship beyond Marriage

(2:46) Outline of Our Talk: The Path before Us

(3:47) Key Definitions and Ideas

(4:47) Covenants

(7:47) Why Now? Explaining Companionate Marriage

(13:13) David's Investment into Community Living

(15:53) TJ's Brotherhood Covenant

(20:06) What is (Covenant) Community?

(25:50) What's a Household?

(33:59) Covenant Siblinghood

(38:24) Types of Covenant Brotherhood

(40:25) David and Jonathan

(43:08) Ruth and Naomi

(44:34) Walatta Petros and Eheta Kristos: Sisterhood between 17th Century Ethiopian Nuns

(47:47) 20th Century Move to Celibacy

(51:11) Advice for church leaders

(52:29) Q&A

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Links and References in This Episode

* Bible Project on Covenants

* Episode #19: A History of Romance in the West—Part 2 with Kathryn Mogk Wagner

* Atlantic Article: “If the Nuclear Family Has Failed, What Comes Next?”

* Check out the Nurturing Communities Network

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

—

★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★

It’s hard to know how to approach a topic that is simultaneously so personal and so full of theological implications. We, David Frank and TJ Espinoza, open up about our developing thoughts on trans experiences as it relates to the complexities of gender as both a social construct and part of biblical theology. In light of this, how might Christians consider ideas around third genders? How should they address violence against trans individuals? Are chosen pronouns an opportunity to manifest neighborliness or courage? Listen in as we try to lay some foundations, as we begin to wade into these sensitive challenges.

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Timestamps

(00:38) Today's snapshot: a preliminary-thoughts episode

(06:43) Defining Transgender

(08:00) Definitions and cultural uses of sex vs. gender

(21:41) Acknowledging intersex

(24:06) No violence is ever Christian

(25:49) Pronouns, but we didn't get into it

(26:43) Sex isn't a social construction, but gender is

(32:43) "Third gender" concepts in different cultures

(50:20) Questions we still have for trans people

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! [email protected]

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

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Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena