New Kinship

Coming in hot, folks… David Frank and TJ Espinoza reflect on sex positivity and how they see parts of the Christian Bible interacting with sexual desire, goodness, transcendence, and meaning. There’s nothing simple about the relationships between sex, marriage, having kids, pleasure, and our spiritual callings. But in those tensions, we also see goodness and fruitfulness. We hope that this discussion prompts more thinking for you all on what a comprehensive Christian sexual ethic can look like. See also: David's writing: Contemplative Prayer on Sex and Its Future https://newkinship.substack.com/p/a-prayer-of-contemplation-on-sex

This episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠.

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Timestamps

(03:23) What Sex Positive Usually Means

(10:48) Evangelical Churches Are Just As Pro-Sex

(16:55) Genesis, Song of Songs, Leviticus, Matthew, Revelation

(17:51) Sexual Difference in the Garden (Genesis)

(19:02) Consent Is Biblical (1st Corinthians)

(20:13) Erotic Poetry Isn't Smut (Song of Songs)

(26:04) Sex Is...Transcendent?...But NOT Worship (Leviticus)

(45:33) Jesus: Yeah, but... there's no marriage in heaven (Matthew)

(51:32) The (Sexless?) Bride of Christ (Revelation)

(53:31) Let's Hear It for... Sex Mediocrity!

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Links and References

We referenced these sections of the Bible in this episode:

* Genesis 2-3

* Songs of Songs/Solomon (whole book)

* Leviticus 15:18

* Matthew 22:30

* Revelation 19

* James 1:17

* Isaiah 56:3-5

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! [email protected]

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/newkinship

→Following us on Instagram! @newkinship

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Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

Coming right up, some hot takes from Greg Coles on:

* Why would you call yourself gay if you’re a Christian? That’s not your identity…

* Wouldn’t it be better if you got married (to someone of the opposite sex)?

* How do I talk to [person] about [LGBTQ sexuality topic we disagree on]?

If you are gay and Christian, or know someone who’s gay and a Christian, somebody in your life is asking these questions, and a whole lot more. This episode is for you, for sharing, and for further discussion.

Background: In Spring 2024, Greg Coles talked with a group of college students and campus ministers. We thought it was such a great primer on thinking Christianly about sexuality that we wanted to share it with you, slightly echo-y room and all.

This is not the end of the conversation—please reach out with your questions, comments, and further discussion!

About Our Guest

Greg is the author of Single, Gay, Christian: A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity and No Longer Strangers: Finding Belonging in a World of Alienation. You can find most of his creative activities curated at gregorycoles.com and at The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender.

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Timestamps

(02:42) Greg on writing Single, Gay, Christian and his PhD

(05:01) Why use "gay" to describe yourself as a Christian?

(09:34) A vision for marriage-free abstinence and delight in the body

(17:01) Theological vs practical questions on sexuality

(20:30) Changes in sexual orientation: happens? is normative? Mixed orientation marriages?

(25:12) Marriage and singleness as complements

(30:08) How am I a gift to the body around me?

(33:16) Q&A: Straight Catholic priests can CHOOSE celibacy or marriage

(37:05) Q&A: Concerns about taking the identity of being gay

(43:13) Q&A: How do I love my lesbian sister well?

(46:53) Q&A: Discipleship convos: I can't believe in Jesus if it means THIS for LGBTQ people...

(51:46) Q&A: Sharing the gospel in an identity politics world

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Links and References

Gay and Catholic and Tenderness by Eve Tushnet

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! [email protected]

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

Tim Otto is a man of intentional commitments: he lives in intentional Christian community; he pastors a church in San Francisco; he’s also gay and celibate, while still affirming gay marriage (Side A). Tim talked with co-hosts TJ and David Frank about his book Oriented to Faith, compassionate approaches, “third way” communities and “disputable” theological differences, celibate partnerships, and the importance of close community living.

Tim was a kind and engaging dialogue partner and we loved having this conversation with him! No matter where you land on faith and sexuality topics, we hope our discussion ministers to you also.

About Our Guest

Tim Otto has lived in an intentional Christian community called Church of the Sojourners for 34 years and is one of its co-pastors. He has a Master of Theology degree from Duke Divinity School, is the author of Oriented to Faith: Transforming the Conflict over Gay Relationships, and loves walking around the Mission District of San Francisco, where he lives. You can find his recent writing on Substack at “Living in Extraordinary Love”: https://timotto.substack.com

For $10 off Revoice registration, use PROMO CODE: RevoicePod

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Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.” Here’s a quick summary:

* "Side A" generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.

* “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage.

★ Timestamps

(0:00) Intro

(1:13) Tim's book: encouraging dialogue and love across sides

(8:03) Idolatry of the "traditional family"

(16:11) Taking a vow of celibacy as a side A gay man

(21:38) Our takes: on the authority and continuity of Scripture

(34:27) What traditionalist viewpoints do you find most compelling?

(38:54) What has moved you toward an affirming position?

(42:55) Are celibate partnerships gnostic?

(52:56) What makes a healthy/acceptable marriage? (same-sex, polyamory, polygamy…)

(1:07:18) How does San Francisco influence you?

(1:14:24) Bonus question: the "common purse" in Tim's community

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★ Links and References

For your easier searching…

* Sacred Cows: Exploring Contemporary Idolatry by J.A. Walter

* The Drama of Scripture: Finding Our Place in the Biblical Story by Craig Bartholemew and Michael Goheen

* Kevin Vanhoozer, theologian

* Tenderness: A Gay Christian’s Guide to Unlearning Rejection and Experiencing God’s Extravagant Love by Eve Tushnet

* “Century of the Self” documentary is on Youtube

* Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul’s

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★

Nate Collins has been part of the Christian conversation around faith and sexuality for decades. He founded Revoice, a conference and ministry for queer/same-sex-attracted Christians, and he’s written two books on the topic. Also, Nate is himself gay or same-sex-attracted and in a mixed-orientation marriage. We are looking forward to sharing Nate’s and Revoice’s story with you, and also encouraging you to attend the Revoice conference with us this summer!

PS: at Revoice2024, come visit TJ and David at our workshop on (Re)discovering Kinship beyond Marriage. We would love to talk to you!

For $10 off Revoice registration, use PROMO CODE: RevoicePod

About Our Guest

Nate Collins is the founding president of Revoice, a ministry with a mission to support and encourage gay, bisexual, same-sex attracted, or other queer Christians—and those who love them—to live out the historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality. He is the author of All But Invisible: Exploring Identity Questions at the Intersection of Faith, Gender, and Sexuality (Zondervan, 2017), as well as a forthcoming volume about sexuality in the Biblical Theology for Life series from Zondervan Academic. He has an Masters of Divinity and PhD from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Nate and his wife, Sara, live in St. Louis, MO, with their three children.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

Timestamps

(1:42) Who is Nate, apart from Revoice?

(10:04) On "mixed orientation marriages”

(23:18) Joining the faith & sexuality conversation over 20 years

(47:40) Fruit of Revoice: Hope in flourishing, community

(49:40) Aaand the Revoice conference promo code

(50:26) Does Side B "mandate celibacy"?

(54:57) Talking "Side X", pursuing change, new creation

(1:01:14) Identity politics for Christians

Links and References

Here are some resources or terms we mentioned in this episode, in case it’s helpful for your understanding and/or Google searching…

Spiritual Friendship blog: spiritualfriendship.org/Nashville Statement: cbmw.org/nashville-statement/GCN=Gay Christian NetworkQCF=Queer Christian FellowshipExodus=Exodus International Ministries

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! [email protected]

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

How do we build communities of collaboration and care? Are our communities in the West in crisis? What are the “common objects of love” that we share, and how do we—average Christians who care—seek those out and build on them?

We were delighted to talk with Jake Meador on some of these questions, which he touches on in his first book, In Search of the Common Good. Join us as we consider different angles on the practices we engage with that can change the imagination of our time.

Jake Meador (jakemeador.com) is a writer, speaker, and editor from Lincoln, Nebraska. He writes about place, politics, culture, and the ways that Christian faith speaks to all of the various questions that those topics raise. He also wrote a thesis on Kwame Nkrumah, a mid-20th century Ghanaian politician. He’s the author of two books, In Search of the Common Good: Christian Fidelity in a Fractured World and What Are Christians For?: Life Together at the End of the World. He serves as the editor-in-chief at Mere Orthodoxy (mereorthodoxy.com), a contributing editor with Plough magazine, and a board member with the Davenant Institute.

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★ Timestamps

(0:00) Intro

(02:23) A crisis of common life

(10:21) Example: Declining birth rates as a social problem

(19:07) Practical recs: asking for help, offering home

(29:04) The historical church on property rights

(34:16) Practices for communities: caught, not taught

(38:22) Roots we don't choose

(44:23) Identity is particular; Christianity is still bigger

(47:31) Who's on the land, who's good for the land?

(01:03:48) OK but we gotta talk about Kwame Nkrumah. Wild.

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★ Links and References in This Episode

Ya’ll. Jake is a well-read man. We got a long list of books for your perusing pleasure (and easier searching).

* Strangers in a Strange Land: Living the Catholic Faith in a Post-Christian World, Archbishop Charles J. Chaput (2017)

* The Benedict Option: A Strategy for Christians in a Post-Christian Nation, Rod Dreher (2017)

* Resurrecting the Idea of Christian Society, R. R. Reno (2016)

* The Unwinding: An Inner History of the New America, George Packer (2014)

* Out of the Ashes: Rebuilding American Culture, Anthony Esolen (2017)

* Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community, Robert Putnam (2000)

* Nancy Pearcey (author)

* Kirkpatrick Sale (author)

* Remaking the World: How 1776 Created the Post-Christian West, Andrew Wilson (2023)

* Wendell Berry (author)—I don’t even know what to tell you, he’s written a lot.

* Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self: Cultural Amnesia, Expressive Individualism, and the Road to Sexual Revolution, Carl Trueman (2020)

* Why Marx Was Right, Terry Eagleton (2018)

* An Indigenous Peoples' History of the United States, Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz (2015)

* Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants, Robin Wall Kimmerer (2015

* Pope Francis on a “throwaway” society (article link)

* John Paul II on a “culture of death” (Evangelium Vitae (1995))

* The Cold War and the Color Line: American Race Relations in the Global Arena, Thomas Borstelmann (2003)

And here are some additional resources or terms mentioned in this episode, not a resource, exactly, but it might make this conversation searchable/accessible to global listeners:

* L’Abri is a “Christian residential study center ministry”

* Several theologians, church fathers, and theorists talked about property rights: John Calvin, St. Basil of Caesarea in Cappadocia, John Locke, and Emil Brunner on “the inner infinity of God’s law”.

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: [email protected] | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★

Let’s talk about common pantry, ya’ll. Today we’re taking on the nitty gritty details of sharing food with people, usually those you live with. Why on earth does this even need to be talked about?

Well, those of you in a “traditional” couple-with-children household probably already share food (often whether or not you want to). But any of you living alone or with other single roommates may find sharing food with others appalling, unappealing, or just plain impossible.

Friend of the podcast Hannah Hiler is here to tell you differently! David talks with Hannah about why she advocates for sharing a common pantry with others—why it follows God’s call for sacrificial community, how it creates generous hospitality, and some details that can make it work or fail.

Hannah is a graphic designer who is passionate about community and hospitality. She currently lives in a community house in South Minneapolis.

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This is part of an ongoing series on The Commons. For more, check out a couple other episodes:

Our first episode on Imagining the Commons, with Brendan Johnson (#30): https://open.substack.com/pub/communionshalom/p/30-imagining-the-commons-with-brendan-7ee

A Workshop with David and Elena on Building Households and Communities Together (#39): https://open.substack.com/pub/communionshalom/p/39-building-households-and-communities-c53

Joseph Pearce on Transformative Economics (#38): https://communionshalom.substack.com/p/38-economics-for-local-community-e78

Timestamps

(00:37) Introducing Hannah

(03:28) Christian community=Living with others

(8:14) “Common Pantry: Everything in the fridge is yours

(25:18) Free beans and rice for everyone?

(31:53) When you SHOULDN'T do Common Pantry

(40:56) Single human seeking independence

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

David’s friend Josh had a pretty radical experience of “healing”…

Supernatural healing is always a complex topic, and with sexual attraction this continues to prove true. Does orientation change? Should we pray for it to change? Josh used to experience same-sex sexual attraction, and through some unusual events, he is also increasingly attracted to women. We offer his story as a provoking thought piece as we try to make sense of how God may work in each of our lives.

Note: This episode briefly includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.

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Timestamps

(1:22) "An overwhelmingly positive church upbringing”

(10:33) God makes a ... joke

(18:42) Experiencing (bi?) attraction after healing

(29:13) I don't prescribe theology, but don't write off healing

(43:41) Has progressive theology ever been persuasive to you?

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Links and References

Something They Will Not Forget by Joshua Gibbs

“A History of Romance in the West—Part 2 with Kathryn Mogk Wagner” - episode #19, published 12/8/2022

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

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Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Voice Actor (Josh overdub): Carl Swenson

Podcast Manager: Elena

Schelli Cronk, Becky Hestness, and Kim Klayum work together at Transform MN, equipping Christian leaders across Minnesota to engage complex issues from a biblical perspective. They are also good friends who have personally and professionally been challenged over time to grow their love and care for LGBTQ friends and family. We are inspired by their deep convictions and equally deep support for LGBTQ folks. We got to hear a bit of their stories and how God’s been working through them in their communities.

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Timestamps

(01:17) Introducing Transform MN

(06:36) Personally/professionally, how do you arrive at this conversation?

(26:29) Being good allies, good friends

(37:29) Sharing truth, grace, and applying it equitably

(44:27) Encouragement and caution: be in relationship with people

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Links and References

Transform MN: https://transformmn.org/

Grace/Truth videos from the Center for Faith, Gender, and Sexuality (Preston Sprinkle): https://ondemand.centerforfaith.com/courses/grace-truth

Revoice conference: https://www.revoice.org/

Laurie Krieg: https://lauriekrieg.com/

TJ’s episode on covenant brotherhood: https://www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/on-covenant-brotherhood-with-special-reference-to-tjs-covenant/

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This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

__________

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

David Frank (you know him) and Elena (podcast manager) gave a workshop talk at Revoice 2023. It was pretty great, and also, predictably, hit-or-miss with sound quality. Enjoy!

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Links and References

The Life We’re Looking For: Reclaiming Relationship in a Technological World by Andy Crouch (publisher’s link)

Our workshop presentation: [Link to Google presentation]

Our worksheet and resources handout: [Link to Google doc]

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

Joseph Pearce’s book Small Is Still Beautiful is a compelling spotlight on the "well-kept secret" of economist E. F. Schumacher. David Frank and Brendan Johnson (from episode 30) talked with Joseph about small localism versus globalism, cooperatives and sharing versus capitalist individualism, and the like. Join us for a delightful conversation around the commons, community, and collaborative flourishing.

About Our Guest

A native of England, Joseph Pearce is the internationally acclaimed author of many books, which include bestsellers such as The Quest for Shakespeare, Tolkien: Man and Myth, The Unmasking of Oscar Wilde, C. S. Lewis and The Catholic Church, Literary Converts, Wisdom and Innocence: A Life of G.K. Chesterton, Solzhenitsyn: A Soul in Exile and Old Thunder: A Life of Hilaire Belloc. He is an author, publisher, editor, lecturer, and professor. His personal website is www.jpearce.co.

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Timestamps

(0:26) Introducing Joseph Pearce

(2:51) Encountering E. F. Schumacher's Small Is Beautiful

(5:38) Modern economics that don't lead to flourishing

(7:45) Distributing wealth, local solidarity

(15:13) Mondragon Corporation: Solidarity in practice

(18:03) The world since 20 years ago: what's changed?

(22:01) Advice for voting with your dollars

(27:45) Is there a risk in things being too small?

(32:47) Reading recommendations

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Links and References

Small Is Still Beautiful: Economics as if Families Mattered by Joseph Pearce (2006)- link to publisher

Joseph Pearce - Facebook, Instagram

Small Is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered by E. F. Schumacher (1973) - link to publisher

Thomas Storck

Wilhelm Röpke

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena