New Kinship

We (TJ and David) first connected with philosopher Joel Carini from a few of his articles on a reformed theology of same-sex attraction. In this episode, Joel joined us for a conversation around various Christian contexts, nature and grace, Side B and identity language, and, of course, philosophy. We appreciate Joel’s care and thoughtfulness around his work, and we hope (whether you agree with him or not) you’ll find his approach worth engaging!

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find our Communion & Shalom episode #3 helpful, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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Timestamps

(0:59) Joel's background

(05:12) Sidenote: new urbanist community

(08:06) Moving toward reformed theology

(10:56) Studying philosophy as a follower of Jesus

(31:15) What is orthodoxy, and what isn't?

(41:01) What is a "natural theologian"?

(48:09) How theology/philosophy helps me love God and others

(54:26) Why conservative Christians emphasize identity language?

(1:00:28) Becoming sympathetic to side B

(1:11:18) People's responses in your church circles

(1:26:36) Sharing side B with conservative Christians

(1:35:38) Advice for intellectuals in the side B conversation

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Links and References

Joel Carini’s Substack: https://joelcarini.substack.com/

“Same Sex Attraction and the Misery of Our Condition” https://joelcarini.substack.com/p/same-sex-attraction-and-the-misery

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Confused about something they referenced in this podcast? So was Podcast Manager Elena. We can’t link to every one of them…so instead here’s the references we caught, spelled correctly, for your easier Google searching:

John Piper (Bethlehem Baptist), Greg Beale, Karl Barth, Van Till (Westminster presuppositionalism), Carl Trueman, Wayne Grudem and complementarianism and egalitarianism, Bruce Ware, heterodox, Miguel de Unamuno (existentialist novelist), Greg Johnson in Christianity Today magazine, Retreat to Commitment by W. W. Bartley III, subordinationism, Bethel McGrew, Wesley Hill’s book Spiritual Friendship

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

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Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

Ariel is a friend of this podcast and—more importantly—a friend to many humans, both queer and straight. We have seen her intuitive care and fierce kindness shine in her support of queer friends and family. We asked her to share some wisdom with us all!

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Timestamps

(02:23) Growing up in evangelical Christianity with queer friends

(11:46) The goodness of diversity in communities

(14:59) Why not use the word "ally"? Or "advocate"?

(21:20) The church has struggled to keep up with culture...and could it ever be "ahead"?

(30:32) What does it mean to be a friend (to...anyone)?

(38:55) Advice for Christians struggling with friendships with queer people

(42:34) Raising kids around differences that aren't scary

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

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Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

Are you in or around the Twin Cities? On June 2nd, we're co-hosting a Side B gathering with our friends from Eden Invitation (you'll hear more about them later this fall). Please email [email protected] so we can personally send you the RSVP!

Paul-Anthony Turner is a gay Christian philosopher and pastor who used to be Side B (holding a traditional Christian sexual ethic of chastity in opposite-sex marriage or a celibate vocation) and is now Side A (affirming same-sex marriage). He takes TJ through his reasoning and philosophy for how he arrives at a Side A position. Preview: He likes Kant a LOT.

One of our main goals with Communion & Shalom is to bring people who believe differently than we do, and differently than each other, into conversation on difficult topics like Christian sexuality. Wherever you find yourself on these topics, we hope you’ll find this conversation gives you insight into other perspectives.

Also, this episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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Timestamps
(06:40) Paul Anthony introduces himself

(09:02) "I always knew I was gay...”

(12:58) When did you become "Side B"?

(28:52) What was your process of transitioning from Side B to Side A

(35:03) Epistemology, ontology, phenomenology... and other philosophical frameworks

(46:47) What is the place of spiritual revelation in your philosophical model?

(55:07) "Doesn't the text have some power to resist the interpretations we bring to it?”

(59:34) But why are you Side A?

(1:04:49) A wager like Pascal's

(1:10:27) How does the idea of sin interact with the account you're giving for sexuality?

(1:17:56) "I think in some ways that absolute knowledge is like the boogeyman in your account...”

(1:18:27) What role does tradition play in your account of same-sex sex within Christianity?

(1:32:34) How do you relate to Side B people now that you're Side A?

(1:39:18) Interpreting the text and the world we are in: "To what extent do you think we [Side B] are wrong?”

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Other Notes

For those of us who aren’t students of either theology or philosophy, a quick-and-dirty reference list….

hermeneutics—different methods of interpretation

ontology—“what makes a thing what it is?”

epistemology—”how can we know what we know?”

teleology—”What is a thing’s goal or purpose?”

phenomenology—“How does my experience affect my engagement with the world?”

Some named-dropped philosophers and theologians, for your spelling convenience: Maurice Merleau-Ponty, Alfred Whitehead, Hans-Georg Gadamer, Martin Heidegger, Jean-Paul Sartre, Immanuel Kant, Friedrich Nietzsche, George Lindbeck

monsignor - Wikipedia

Books by James K. A. Smith—Desiring the Kingdom, Who’s Afraid of Postmodernism?, and Who’s Afraid of Relativism?

Paul Anthony’s friends Ed Oxford and Kathy Baldock are writing a book called Forging A Sacred Weapon

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

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Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

Within Christian circles on the faith and sexuality, we (especially Side B people) spend a lot of time talking about different “sides” and where we stand. Some people think we shouldn’t even talk about sides at all. While there may be merit to some of their objections, we still think it’s a valuable way of framing things. This episode explains why we keep using “Side A” and “Side B”. We might give you some new ideas, might change your mind… or it might just give you more things to argue about with us. We welcome all of those!

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, and Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation (welcome!), you can totally join us for an insider conversation…but first you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠⁠

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Timestamps

(00:57) Why did this topic come up?
(04:40) What are the strengths of using "sides" language or framework?
(09:33) Critiques of using "sides" language or frameworks
(25:03) Critiques we find wisdom in
(27:08) Alternatives: What other language besides "sides" could we use?
(35:59) Is "sides" language sufficient for our moment?

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Links and References

Below are some names mentioned in this episode, which may help make this conversation easier to follow and look up.

• Saint Aelred - Wikipedia


• We mention Rosaria Butterfield on this episode, who represents “Side Y”.


• Matthew Vines represents a traditional “Side A” perspective.


• Tyler Sit was a guest on this podcast - Episode 13


• Giacomo San Filippo was a guest on this podcast - Episode 17

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza
Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)
Podcast Manager: Elena

Ethnicity, race, nationalism… Just bringing up those words can raise the temperature of the room. These topics intersect and affect our daily lives in ways that are so important—how do we, as Christians, engage these topics well?

We share some initial thoughts on ethnicity and on why it can be important to focus on it, or de-emphasize it, in our daily lives.

We welcome your input and sharpening of these ideas, as always. Thanks for listening!

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Timestamps

(04:33) Defining “ethnicity”

(08:28) David’s ethnic background, plus a quick definition of "Mennonite”

(21:36) Finding your roots, and Disney's Moana

(28:32) TJ's ethnic background

(32:39) Tensions in community, family, and what roots you grow

(37:57) Counter-argument: “Ethnic tribalism is a threat to peaceful universalism”

(50:51) Wrapping up

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Links and References

“The Radical Anti-Racism of Christopher Hitchens” https://fairforall.substack.com/p/hitchens-antiracism

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

We are so excited to welcome Mwendia Steve Kiengu to the podcast as we begin highlighting perspectives from Africa!

Mwendia is a seminary student in Kenya who’s grown up with same-sex attraction. He talks with TJ about the African cultural dynamics they’ve both experienced around same-sex attraction—how people talk about it, advice they give, and the challenges that Christians with same-sex attractions face.

We value Mwendia’s perspective on sexuality, both for Africans engaging in the conversation and for global listeners expanding their knowledge of the world.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand, which is most often a western framing. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠⁠

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Timestamps

(0:24) TJ: On highlighting African voices

(04:09) Introducing Mwendia

(16:02) Same-sex sexual relations (and insult words) among Kenyan young people

(22:54) Are there gay Kenyan celebrities?

(25:36) Most closeted Kenyans stay there (under pressure to marry, have kids)

(32:21) African values on marriage + kids (high), celibacy (low)

(40:41) Openness to celibate partnerships, LGBT language? in Kenya

(50:02) "This is a western ideology”

(58:44) Kenyan Christians who affirm same-sex sex?

(1:00:00) Finding the boldness to build community

(1:05:36) What LGBT language is used among Kenyan Christians?

Links and References

Mwendia’s blog: https://thequestionofsexuality.home.blog/
Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill (2010) Link to publisher

Spiritual Friendship blog: https://spiritualfriendship.org/

Revoice conference: https://www.revoice.org/
Still Time to Care by Greg Johnson (2021) Link to publisher

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Below are some resources or terms mentioned in this episode, which may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course).

• Binyavanga Wainaina was a famous Kenyan writer who was open about his homosexuality. Wiki


• Kenyan fashion designer and LGBTQ activitist Chiloba Edwin was recently murdered. Wiki


• The story of Leah’s and Rachel’s use of their maids as surrogate mothers/concubines to build their families is found in Genesis 29:31 through 30:22.

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

We (David and TJ) are Side B, and we care about engaging people across differences. Last year we interviewed three Side A folks from different perspectives:

#12 - JP’s Story: Moving Away from Side B#13 - Ordained, Gay, and Seeking Liberation: A Chat with Rev. Tyler Sit#17 - Giacomo Sanfilippo on the Asceticism of Same-Sex Love

In January, we got the chance to sit down together and reflect on those three interviews. We anticipate continued conversations with Side A friends, and we don’t want this to be the end of the discussion—please join us as we continue it!

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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Timestamps

(0:32) Context: What did we learn, and what similarities and differences do we see?

(11:38) JP: on singleness in Side X

(14:41) JP: on why he left Side B

(21:22) JP: on celibate partnerships

(24:49) Tyler Sit: on purity culture, empire, and liberation

(37:17) Tyler Sit: on which cross we should bear

(43:22) Giacomo Sanfilippo: on human and divine eros

(47:43) Giacomo Sanfilippo: on moralism vs asceticism

(1:00:19) David and TJ: final thoughts (for now)

Links and References
“Bill Nye Unweaves the Rainbow—and Undersells Science” by Leah Libresco Sargeant (May 2017) https://leahlibresco.com/bill-nye-unweaves-the-rainbow-and-undersells-science/

“Designing Woman“ by Leah Libresco Sargeant (Sept. 2022) https://comment.org/designing-woman/

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview:

• Our Communion & Shalom episode #3 talks through the 4 main “sides.” #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality


• This article from Life on Side B gives a good quick summary. https://www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides

If you like this podcast, please consider…

→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact

→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom

→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

—

Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza

Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)

Podcast Manager: Elena

Contrary to (some) opinions, those of us who consider ourselves “Side B” on Christian sexuality don’t agree on everything, nor is there a shared “declaration of theology” document that we can all agree on. What ideas unite and divide the Side B community? TJ and David identify 6 areas of unity and 8 areas of difference, within the Side B community.

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

And, if it helps clarify…when we say someone “is Side B”, we’re referring to those of us who are ourselves queer or same-sex attracted (which is different than the larger group, queer or straight, who align with Side B’s general theology and posture).

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Timestamps

(00:23) Why this episode is needed

Shared Unity in Side B:

(05:00) 1. Historic Christian sexual ethic

(05:39) 2. The church should uphold celibate vocation

(06:06) 3. Willingness to see the goods of being queer

(08:30) 4. Same-sex attraction isn’t morally culpable as a sinful action (we differ on what is “indwelling sin”)

(10:19) 5. Using wisdom, not prescribed language, for identity terms

(10:56) 6. Opposition to “conversion therapy”

Differences within Side B (11:46):

(13:37) 1. Theological, denominational traditions

(15:49) 2. Backgrounds, countries, cultures, beliefs, practices

(17:10) 3. How we relate to LGBT/queer subculture(s)

(23:32) 4. How we theologically evaluate Side A (or Y, X) beliefs

(24:30) Where we started affects our current theological stance

(25:36) The value we place on certain virtues (esp. TRUTH) affects our current theological stance

(27:41) How big is the gap is between Side A and B?

(45:03) 5. How we relate to gender norms

(47:41) 6. How Christians should influence polity, laws, esp. on gay marriage

(50:06) 7. Perspectives on having celibate partnerships

(51:43) 8. Diversity in communities (it’s a human problem)

(52:22) In conclusion, why does this matter?

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Links and References

Previous Communion & Shalom podcast episodes we referred to:

#11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides (July 13, 2022)

BONUS: A Virtual Tour of TJ's Experience at Pride 2022 (Sept 7, 2022)

Revoice Conference: https://revoice.us/

One example of Rosaria Butterfield’s critique of Side B: https://podcast.choosetruthovertribe.com/episodes/rosaria-butterfield-christian-lesbian

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Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at [email protected].

Find us on Instagram! @communionandshalom

If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom