New Kinship

David and TJ get together with friend JP from the Twin Cities. We talk about JP’s movement away from “Side B” to a more agnostic and/or “Side A” position. We also get into JP’s experience with the “ex-gay” movement, people, and ministries, and we talk about issues he sees in US Christianity that make some of these conversations difficult for queer people.

Check out our response to JP and other Side A guests in episode #23 - Side B Response to Side A: Our 2022 Guests

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Timestamps

01:05 - Introducing JP

12:42 - Cultural gender norms in Christian culture and beyond

14:25 - Getting involved in ex-gay ministries, “Side B” community

23:27 - “There was this push towards heterosexual marriage”

32:36 - Leaving the “Side B” group

38:46 - Losing room to breathe in a church context

41:45 - Thoughts on celibate partnerships and why they can fail

46:42 - On churches making sacrifices, disagreeing in community

49:56 - Shifting perspectives through reading, friends, cognitive dissonance

1:04:42 - JP’s current perspectives on “Side B”

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For Your Reference

Luke 6:43-45 (NIV) (we mentioned it around 1hour, 2min)

“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.”

Below are some links to organizations or topics mentioned in the conversation, with the caveat that linking doesn’t necessarily imply endorsement.

Outpost Ministries: https://outpostministries.org/

Twin Cities Justice House of Prayer: https://tcjhop.org/

Just for Fun: An article about Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the Football: https://slate.com/culture/2014/10/the-history-of-lucys-pulling-the-football-away-from-charlie-brown-in-peanuts.html

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In this bonus episode, TJ and David review the 6 universal moral foundations from Jonathan Haidt’s research in light of their views—and others’—on Christian queer sexuality. This is a follow-up to last week’s discussion, so you may want to listen to that episode also.

If you enjoy this bonus episode, drop us a line! Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at anchor.fm/communion-shalom, using the contact form on our website www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact, or emailing us at [email protected]

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For Reference:

The 6 values/foundations from the Moral Foundations research team are as follows:

Care/Harm: related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturing.

Fairness/Cheating: related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy.

Loyalty/Betrayal: related to our long history as tribal persons that form shifting coalitions. It underlies virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice for the group (e.g. “one for all, and all for one”).

Authority/Subversion: shaped by our long primate history of hierarchical social interactions. It underlies virtues of leadership and followership, including deference to legitimate authority and respect for traditions.

Sanctity/Degradation: shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).

Liberty/Oppression (a potential additional foundation): reactance and resentment people feel toward those who dominate them and restrict their liberty. The hatred of bullies and dominators motivates people to come together to oppose the oppressor.

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Other Resources:

Jonathan Haidt: jonathanhaidt.com

Moral Foundation Theory: moralfoundations.org + Quiz yourmorals.org

The Righteous Mind Book and Resources: righteousmind.com

Sex, Economy, Freedom, and Community by Wendell Berry: counterpointpress.com/dd-product/sex-economy-freedom-community/

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TJ and David dig into Dr. Jonathan Haidt’s social, cultural, and psychological research on the universal moral foundations, based on Haidt’s book The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, i.e. we explore how these foundations inform our “intuitive ethics,” which give key insights to how we approach sexual ethics. We also talk through how this theory relates to different perspectives (”Sides” A, B, Y, and X) in the conversation around sexual ethics. We hope that this conversation builds up wisdom for all of us to engage better in being morally reflective, virtuous persons embedded in our larger communities, structures, and lands.

We apologize for some audio quality issues.

Trigger warning: When we are reading the first paragraphs of Jonathan Haidt’s A Righteous Mind, we mention a sex act in the first few minutes of the podcast which may make listeners uncomfortable.

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0:00 - The Righteous Mind's intro to universal moral foundations

4:47 - Quick refresher: “Side A”, “Side Y”, “Side X”, and “Side B”

9:30 - Intro to the 6 moral foundations

12:40 - Elephant and the rider (who’s steering?)

20:30 - Side A foundations for moral thinking

40:13 - The church handling polygamy in an African context

44:25 - The Bible’s emphasis on different moral foundations

49:32 - Wrapping up

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For reference, the 6 values/foundations from the Moral Foundations research team:

Care/Harm: related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturing.

Fairness/Cheating: related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy.

Loyalty/Betrayal: related to our long history as tribal persons that form shifting coalitions. It underlies virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice for the group (e.g. “one for all, and all for one”).

Authority/Subversion: shaped by our long primate history of hierarchical social interactions. It underlies virtues of leadership and followership, including deference to legitimate authority and respect for traditions.

Sanctity/Degradation: shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).

Liberty/Oppression (a potential foundation): reactance and resentment people feel toward those who dominate them and restrict their liberty. The hatred of bullies and dominators motivates people to come together to oppose the oppressor.

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Jonathan Haidt: jonathanhaidt.com

Moral Foundation Theory: moralfoundations.org + Quiz yourmorals.org

The Righteous Mind Book and Resources: righteousmind.com

Russell Moore Interview with Haidt: https://www.russellmoore.com/2018/09/21/russell-moore-jonathan-haidt-a-conversation/

Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at anchor.fm/communion-shalom or emailing us at [email protected]

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After verbally processing on our last podcast, we read and listened to various perspectives that differ from ours and are coming back to discuss it again. This can be considered a summary of sorts of the last podcast, with some finer-tuned thoughts.

See David's reflection that he shared with his church - The False Dichotomy of Pride Month

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Referenced Articles:

Rod Dreher - https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-shame-of-pride-month/

Carl Trueman - https://wng.org/opinions/welcome-to-pride-month-christian-1654083759

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What to do about the Pride Month? Reject? Celebrate? A little of both?

TJ and David take a stab at complexifying this simple question.

(rough cut audio while sitting on the porch)

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In this episode, we, joined by our friend and project manager/editor Alaina, talk about covenant brotherhood, via the particular instantiation of TJ’s covenant brotherhood/s with four brothers. TJ shares his general story, we talk about the general shape and contours of the relationship, consider its relationship to celibate partnerships, and provide general preliminary advice about what it might look like to pursue this relationship in the US context. This is the first of many planned conversations on this topic - enjoy!

Show Notes:

Book - Brothermaking in Late Byzantium and Antiquity by Claudia Rapp: Brother-Making in Late Antiquity and Byzantium - Claudia Rapp - Oxford University Press (oup.com)

Your Other Brother’s Podcast on Covenant Friendship: YOBcast 083: Covenant Friendship w/ Dr. Paul Eddy • Your Other Brothers

Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at https://anchor.fm/communion-shalom or emailing us at [email protected]

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Recommendation for episode #916 on the podcast Theology in the Raw.
https://www.prestonsprinkle.com/theology-in-the-raw/916-misty-irons
Preston Sprinkle gives good introductory thoughts on "gay" identity before sharing an incredible talk from Revoice by Misty Irons that we've mentioned before.

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David Frank shares about his "coming out" story at church and with family, reflecting on formative influences on his sexuality, and how God has established him in a Side B life that is committed to sewing into community.

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[CONTENT WARNING: Story includes brief mentions of direct sexual desire and addiction.]

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1:03 - Revoice Recap

6:48 - Jesus and My Sexuality

14:07 - Sin and Fanning the Flames

17:50 - About Coming Out to My Church

29:32 - Coming Out to My Family

39:12 - Why Do I Struggle Less?

47:43 - Difficulties & Gifts of Being Queer/SSA/etc. 

50:33 - Why not Side A? Why Side B?

53:10 - 1st Principal and Foundation of St. Ignatius*

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Show Notes:

Misty Iron's Blog https://moremusingson.blogspot.com/

We had audio inconsistencies that may be noticeable. Apologies!

*Sound from http://www.freesound.org/people/klankbeeld/

Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at https://anchor.fm/communion-shalom or emailing me at [email protected]

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TJ Espinoza shares the history of his personal understanding about his own sexuality, and how God has lead him through study, community, and spiritual experience towards a Side B conviction, even if it leaves him with many loose ends for his life.

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[CONTENT WARNING: Story includes brief mentions of moments of direct sexual desire.]

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2:24 - TJ in Americas

19:06 - Queer in Africa

22:38 - Christian College

27:33 - Entering the Side B Conversation

31:37 - Why not Side A?

47:09 - Tension in Singleness (America & Africa)

50:40 - Why Side B?

56:47 - Queer Identity vs Christian Identity | Identity Hierarchy

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*We had technical problems that required some audio re-recording. 

Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at https://anchor.fm/communion-shalom

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David and TJ get into one of the most commonly controversial topics currently regarding the Side B conversation and Side B Christians – terminology! We talk through some common reason why contemporary queer Christians may use queer/lgbt+ terminology in their lives versus people who would eschew such terms and often focus on instead using same sex (sexually) attracted (SS(S)A) terminology or else encouraging Christians not to use any such terms at all.  This conversation is of particular relevance to the differences that separate Side B and Side Y / X Christians in our contemporary times. Apologies to our listeners for some audio issues on TJ’s end.

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Show Notes: 

Yarhouse’s post providing commentary on the recent Anglican Church of North America’s Pastoral Statement regarding same sex relationships, identity, language, etc.: Reflections on The ACNA Pastoral Statement – Mark Yarhouse (wordpress.com)

Two side B Christians, Rachel Gilson and Greg Coles, have a dialogue on the use of “Gay” vs. “Same Sex Attraction”: “Gay” Vs. “Same Sex Attraction:” A Dialogue | The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender

A post by Rosaria Butterfield who is typically labeled as Side Y where she calls into question using sexual orientation language: What is wrong with gay Christianity? What is Side A and Side B anyway? — Rosaria Champagne Butterfield (rosariabutterfield.com)

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