New Kinship

Tate grew up in small-town, Bible-belt Texas before attending “the absolute worst of the worst” of the “too liberal or too secular" universities. We (David and TJ) talk with Tate about his story of coming out, growing in faith, and being a bridge between different communities. We appreciated Tate’s reflection on how the words we use to describe sexuality (such as gay, same-sex attracted, homosexual, etc.), can mean different things to different communities. 

Note: This episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised. 

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Timestamps 

0:55 - Tate’s background

7:35 - The language of being gay, coming out

16:55 - Community perceptions of homosexuality in language and activity

25:10 - College: taking faith seriously, being gay at a “liberal” university

33:00 - Conversations on sexuality with campus ministers vs. Gen Z classmates

38:45 - Speaking and consulting on Christianity and same-sex sexuality

48:35 - “My understanding of sin changed when I left home”

50:45 - How does/should the Christian church relate to queer people?

55:15 - How do you think about your attractions, your sexuality?

1:00:00 - Christian views on homosexuality: what categories did/do you use?

1:05:00 - Why are you not “Side A” (affirming of same-sex marriage/sexual relationships)?

1:07:10 - How can queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT people fit in the church? What are the positive gifts or strengths of being queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT? 

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Links and References in This Episode 

Tate’s blog: tate.fyi

Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality (2010) by Wesley Hill

Two Views on Homosexuality, the Bible, and the Church (2016)—contributors: William Loader, Megan K. DeFranza, Wesley Hill, Stephen R. Holmes; edited by Preston Sprinkle

“Being gay is like a drop of ink in a glass of water”—referenced in a Spiritual Friendship blog post by Wesley Hill: https://spiritualfriendship.org/2016/03/10/will-i-be-gay-in-the-resurrection/ 

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True love means… what??

There are many answers to that question, and in this episode, we’re just talking about some of them. In part 3 of our conversation with medieval literature scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, we reflect on some of the implications of the “pure relationship”—and how combining or removing certain elements of the historic marriage relationship can have big impacts. How should we think about desire, romantic attraction, and the marriage relationship today? And how does this impact how we think about love and kinship in other forms?

If you have more answers to those questions, get in touch!

This episode is part 3 of 3.

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Timestamps

4:15 - Marriage as an image of God’s love: is it more agape or eros?

17:10 - What elements makes it marriage? economic factors, children, romantic attraction, sex?

22:25 - Jesus on divorce, adultery: What’s the underlying logic?

25:35 - Where do we go from here? Directing desire and romantic attraction

43:20 - What is the constructive Christian response to the current “pure relationship” model?

49:36 - Kathryn’s book recommendation: Kristin Lavransdatter

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Links and References

Kathryn Mogk Wagner: kathryn.mogkwagner.net

Anthony Giddens on the “pure relationship”

Sermons on eros by Robert Cunningham at the Good of the Bluegrass Conference 2022 (listen at the conference website; listen to a shorter summary in another podcast from Cunningham at Every Square Inch)

The Symposium by Plato (wiki)

The Divine Comedy and La Vita Nuova by Dante Alighieri; about Beatrice (wiki)

The story of King Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot is told many places; one is Le Morte d’Arthur (wiki)

Eros and Agape by Anders Nygren

Kristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset

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But not that kind of western romance…

Pop quiz: Which of the following reasons is a good reason to get married to someone?

• Because your family or social circle wants you to


• Because you sexually desire that person (or are already sexually involved)


• Because you want children (or have them already)


• Because you need financial stability


• Because you’re “in love” with that person


• Because you’re “in love” with someone else

Some of these answers might seem ridiculous, but a hundred or a thousand years ago, people concluded very different things about marriage and romance, depending on the age they live in.

We in the West can bundle together a lot of expectations for romantic partners—they should be your best friend, have romantic attraction, maybe build a family together, share finances, support you emotionally, and on and on. Sometimes we separate out just one or two items—attraction, best-friendship—and focus on that alone. But it hasn’t always been this way. In the scale of human history, our current assumptions about romance and marriage are actually quite young.

In part 2 of this series, we continue our conversation with friend and scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, to look through the lens of Western literature at changing perspectives on romance, (Christian) marriage, love, and intimacy through the ages.

This episode is part 2 of 3.  For anyone who has had to work through their expectations for romantic relationships (or other people’s expectations for your relationships!), this episode is for you.

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Timestamps

1:45 - The biology of attraction

8:05 - The ancient world: Marriage as economic arrangement

10:35 - The early Christian church: equality in adultery

12:15 - Courtly love and longing in the 11th century

20:05 - Example: King Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere

23:30 - Arranged marriages and consent in the Christian church

30:05- Example: Dante and Beatrice

39:30 - Contemporary Christian emphasis on marriage—does it deserve it?

45:05 - Companionate marriage: Edmund Spenser’s poetry

49:00 - Holiness as celibacy (Catholics) or married life (Protestants)

53:45 - Song of Songs in the church’s imagination

58:05 - The development of the “pure relationship”

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Links and References

Kathryn Mogk Wagner: kathryn.mogkwagner.net

The Allegory of Love by C.S. Lewis

The Symposium by Plato (wiki)

The Divine Comedy and La Vita Nuova by Dante Alighieri; about Beatrice (wiki)

The story of King Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot is told many places; one is Le Morte d’Arthur (wiki)

Edmund Spenser, poet (wiki)

Anthony Giddens on the “pure relationship”

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Please share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at [email protected].

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What does it mean to love your best friend? Is it the same as the kind of love you have for your spouse or romantic partner? How about the kind of love that God gives us, or that we can give God?

These are questions that people have been asking in the Christian tradition for millennia. Eros is one of the Greek words for love that people have argued about. In this episode, we talk with medieval literature scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner about how people have defined eros, from Plato, to C.S. Lewis, to a recent conference podcast from pastor Robert Cunningham.

This episode is part 1 of 3.

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Timestamps

3:30 - What’s important about the word “eros”?

4:15 - Eros in C.S. Lewis’s The Four Loves

6:55 - Summarizing Robert Cunningham’s 3 sermons on Eros

16:00 - Eros in Plato’s Symposium

20:00 - Does eros only refer to sexual love?

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Links and References

Kathryn Mogk Wagner's website: kathryn.mogkwagner.net

The Four Loves by C.S. Lewis (listen to original audio on the Internet Archive; read a brief summary of the book)

Sermons on eros by Robert Cunningham at the Good of the Bluegrass Conference 2022 (listen at the conference website; listen to a shorter summary in another podcast from Cunningham at Every Square Inch)

The Symposium by Plato (wiki)

Eros and Agape by Anders Nygren

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Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at [email protected].

If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom

Instagram: @communionandshalom

Note: This podcast includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.

Giacomo was a great conversation partner for building understanding across differences and investigating a theology of same-sex love. We encourage listeners to listen closely to try to understand one Side A perspective more carefully, and to think about how people from a Side B perspective might engage with those whom they have distinct disagreements but also surprising similarities.

Giacomo Sanfilippo is an Orthodox Christian and the founding editor of the blog Orthodoxy in Dialogue, where he has become the Orthodox Church’s most well known LGBTQ advocate. Largely influenced by his work on Father Pavel Florensky, Giacomo’s perspective is grounded in an ascetic view of sexuality and same-sex love, whereby Christians are made more like God through acts of self-sacrifice and discipline.  Based on his work at Orthodoxy in Dialogue, we wanted to hear more about how he comes to his theology of sexuality, particularly as embedded in the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition.

Check out our response to Giacomo and other Side A guests in episode #23 - ⁠Side B Response to Side A: Our 2022 Guests ⁠

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Timestamps
(1:01) Introducing Giacomo

(5:21) Updated Note: Clarification of Differences

(6:46) Orthodox marriage vs same-sex relationships

(12:41) What has theologically informed your understanding of same-sex love?

(25:25) Giacomo’s story

(37:49) Becoming more public in the Christian sexuality conversation

(44:22) How do you integrate your understanding of same-sex love with the Orthodox church’s teaching around marriage?

(49:13) Asceticism in sexuality: a monogamous vision for same-sex (and heterosexual) couples

(54:47) If there’s no sex in heaven…

(58:51) Do people who are celibate miss out on a “need”?

(1:19:13) The myth of being “fully satisfied” in a relationship

(1:28:46) David and TJ on Side B perceptions of queerness

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Links, References, and Terms
Orthodoxy in Dialogue website: orthodoxyindialogue.com

Article: “Conjugal Friendship” publicorthodoxy.org/2017/05/02/conjugal-friendship/

Asceticism (you can look this up many places. We’ll offer just one relevant link: https://orthodoxwiki.org/Asceticism)

Antinomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomy

Pavel Florensky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Florensky

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Michelle and Will are two friends who identify as asexual and queer, and we (David and TJ) wanted to hear their take on what’s good about being queer. Before that, we spent a little more time reflecting on those topics ourselves.

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Timestamps

01:00 - In which David and TJ summarize a few initial goods from their own queer experience: avoiding “the establishment”, discipleship, Plato’s take on social contributions, humility, God working in the margins.

10:45 - Please don’t feel bad if you’re not queer (or “queer enough”)

12:20 - Now, back to our regularly scheduled interview with Will and Michelle…

13:20 - Queerness can develop self-discernment, humility, self-sacrifice in suffering

24:50 - Queer people often see the brokenness of the world, need for corporate confession

27:40 - Queer people can sometimes have a “genius” for friendship, be a “safe friend”, and change the script on intimacy and masculinity

34:15 - Queerness: everyone’s a special snowflake, yes, but there’s something deeply Christian about that

39:45 - Queerness disrupts our emphasis on marriage and romance

57:40 - The scandal of a mixed gender household

58:45 - In conclusion: It’s about seeing Christ, and ourselves through his eyes

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Join us as we (David, TJ, and our friends Will and Michelle—who are asexual/queer) explore ideas of what “queerness” means. While we can’t come to one single definition, we hit on a kaleidoscope of topics as we explore the weirdness inherent in the word “queer,” the queering influence of Christianity, queerness and the arts, and ontological questions about queer sexual orientation.

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A Few Quick Definitions for Your Optional Reference

asexuality: a lack of sexual attraction or desire for sexual activity (see Wikipedia)

ontology: the philosophical study of the nature of being, what it means to be; the nature of inherent personhood.

autognosis: self-knowledge; the understanding of one’s own psychodynamics, character, nature, abilities, etc.

theosis: the process of humans becoming more like God (this theological concept is prominent in particular in Eastern Orthodox Christian theology)

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Timestamps

Conversation with Michelle and Will:

1:30 - Introductions

3:50 - Queer as a neutral word for “weird”

9:25 - Early and medieval Christianity—Origen, consecrated virgins, Franciscans, and Anchorites

16:00 - Queer theory—destruction of cultural norms, avoiding oppression

18:10 - Queerness, the arts, and avoiding “the game”

(TJ’s definition of “queer” at 20:15: “a special affinity for people of the same sex”)

23:50 - Self knowledge (“autognosis”): becoming more ourselves, more like Christ

29:00 - Self creation: identity narcissism in our current culture

30:50 - Michelle on art that knows oneself, community, and God

33:10 - TJ on difficulties with ontology and gender norms

Further Thoughts from David and TJ:

38:35 - Ontology: queerness as inherent vs. queerness as essence (i.e., an established trait vs a core, created good)

42:10 - Defining queer: “same-sex affinity” vs. “challenging dominant cultural norms”

49:15 - On the social construction of (queer) identity categories

55:15 - Why “queer” should not be synonymous with “broken”

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Links and References

“S04E10 | Collin, Michelle, & Will on Being Ace (w/ Grant)” (Life on Side B podcast)

Article: “Is Theatre Really Queer?”

Book: On the Incarnation by Athanasius (read online)

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TJ talks with Lucas, a friend from the Midwest (US) who experiences same-sex attraction and generally identifies with Side B but finds understanding among several “sides” of the Christian debate. We see Lucas’s story offering an example of someone processing through faith, attraction, ethnicity, political frameworks, and arriving at a position of thoughtfulness and nuance.

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Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, here’s a quick explanation. We also recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.”

• "Side A" generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.

Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Specific perspectives differ beyond that:

• “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic.


• ”Side X” tends to emphasize the possibility of sexual orientation change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being "ex gay."


• “Side Y” tends to avoid naming any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being "gay."

Timestamps

2:25 - Lucas' church background

7:06 - The pros and cons of different words: Same-sex attraction, gayness, and more

10:04 - Lucas' story: Naming and understanding about same-sex attraction

21:09 - Lucas' story: Sharing about same-sex attraction

29:02 - An alternate vision of marriage in culture ("we make marriage more difficult than it has to be")

35:10 - Connecting culture and ethnicity with sexuality conversations

39:25 - Why aren't you side A? (or, What is marriage for?)

43:32 - Why don't you see yourself in side X or side Y?

51:49 - Side B: More opportunity for friendships?

54:47 - Suggestions for future research on queerness

59:55 - Other intersections (intellectual traditions, multi-ethnic, etc.) with Lucas' perspective

1:02:16 - The possible role of government in sexual morality

1:09:03 - Looking to the future: Co-housing

Links and References

Below are some resources or terms that Lucas and TJ mention in this episode, which may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course).

Spiritual Friendship Blog: spiritualfriendship.org/

Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill

Spiritual Friendship by Wesley Hill

Out of a Far Country by Christopher Yuan and Angela Yuan

Changed Movement: https://changedmovement.com/

Freedom March: https://www.freedomtomarch.com/

The theological idea of “concupiscence”: according to Wikipedia and the Roman Catholic encyclopedia.

In the episode, Lucas also mentioned the Pulse Massacre (Wikipedia)—content warning for violence, murder, and terror.

Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at anchor.fm/communion-shalom or emailing us at [email protected]

In June 2022, TJ went to a Pride Festival for the first time, and he reflects on his experience, with alternating bemusement and critique.

David and TJ sit down with Rev. Tyler Sit of New City Church in the Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA. Tyler represents a “Side A” pastoral perspective as an ordained minister for the United Methodist Church in the US. In this wide-ranging conversation, David and TJ to seek to understand Tyler's perspective, his understanding of Side B, and his take on Side A hermeneutics, particularly those centered in liberation theologies. Tyler was an excellent conversation partner in this. We encourage our listeners to listen closely to understand one Side A perspective more carefully, and consider how a Side B perspective might engage similar folks.

(Note: We often use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand. "Side A" generally affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships. “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction while upholding the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage.)

Check out our response to Rev. Tyler Sit and other Side A guests in episode #23 - ⁠Side B Response to Side A: Our 2022 Guests ⁠

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Timestamps

02:19 - Tyler’s story: “I want to see God”

07:18 - Tyler’s story: Coming out, pursuing ministry

11:18 - The United Methodist Church’s approach to homosexuality

13:45 - Tyler’s story: Pursuing ordination, LGBT campus ministry

19:42 - Tyler’s story: Encountering other Christian perspectives in seminary

21:50 - Tyler on constructs for sexuality

25:51 - Methodist positions and tensions over the last (many) years

33:15 - A hermeneutic of loving God, neighbor, self

36:00 - Q: Why is the traditional/non-affirming perspective not persuasive to you? (Liberation theology, purity culture)

45:27 - Q: Why does the church need queer voices?

50:24 - Liberation theology: How does “the coming age” relate to sexuality right now?

52:39 - Suffering in the Christian life

1:03:30 - Early Christianity persecution and family models

1:07:34 - Where we diverge on humans’ design, power, and authority

1:22:26 - David’s experience with Tyler’s church, plus our initial experiences with community, coming out

1:30:35 - The use of tradition, authority, and “orthophilia”

1:34:45 - Differing ideological frameworks: “Empire” vs. “the world”

1:39:23 - Christendom, justice movements, and our relationship to the state

1:42:58 - Freedom and oppression, God as a parent, and centers of identity

1:48:46 - Benediction

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Links and References

Tyler Sit’s website: www.tylersit.com/about-tyler

An article on the United Methodist’s “Traditional Plan”.

The Romans passage mentioned in our conversation is Romans 1:16-32.

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Below are some links that may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course): The Boy Scouts of America (Wikipedia), Westboro Baptist Church (Wikipedia), ROTC program (Wikipedia), Hillel House (Wikipedia), Candler School of Theology, About Taizé prayer.

Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at https://anchor.fm/communion-shalom or emailing us at [email protected]