not serious wine chats

I recently had the pleasure of parking up in the Cabana at Black Barn in Hawkes Bay and riffing on wine life with wine writer Elaine Chukan Brown. I say wine writer but actually they are much more than simply that. 

Elaine’s wine journey started in earnest in 2011 but it’s the life they had in the lead up to then that brings a richness and depth and, at times great humour, to this chat. 

Originally from Alaska, Elaine now calls Sonoma, California home and to spice things up they rocked up to our get together with a bottle of wine from Washington state. That threw me - especially as it was a Sauvignon Blanc blend. You could call that a ballsie move to sit down with a kiwi and pour them a glass of that stuff but what it actually was, was an incredible portal that saw us transcend into chatting about prohibition, the great depression, world war II and the effects it had on the American wine trade as well as Elaine’s time spent training camels. You heard that right but here’s the thing. The training camels came after a stint as a Tarot card reader for a Dial-a-Psychic gig which came after a decade of fishing for salmon. 

Not serious enough for ya? I’m deadly serious when I say this one is a cracker folks. After all those various vocations, Elaine has ended up dedicating their time to being a global wine educator, a wine mentor, a wine lover but mostly an absolute advocate for the people behind the bottle. 

The list of credentials Elaine has earned when it comes to wine is far reaching and includes publishing a wine book, The Wines Of California, assisting with the publication of the 4th and 5th editions of the Oxford Companion to Wine along with freelance writing for all the top wine mags. Perhaps most importantly, they co-founded the Diversity in Wine Leadership Forum, and has advised diversity initiatives in multiple countries around the world. 

They were in Aotearoa for the 2024 Chardonnay Symposium - a two day exploration of everything Chardonnay held in Heretaunga, Hastings by Hawkes Bay Wine. The key theme for the conference was to discuss a ’sense of place’ and Elaine was asked to offer their take on it all, from Canterbury to California or Bannockburn to Burgundy. With deep roots to their own place and an academic background in Philosophy (that came after all the camels), they were one of the very best wine people to help define what a sense of place even means. 

So, shuffle your tarot cards, pour something that makes you think hard and get the cold smoked salmon plated up. This is the not serious Elaine Chukan Brown.

not serious wine chats would like to thank our supporters:
Funded by Tradecraft
Supported with time and a place to record By the Bottle
Palate refreshing mineral water supplied by Antipodes Water Co.
Special thanks to my pal, Benj Brooking of Popular.nz for his help with the editing. An expert filmmaker, editing these chats is being done as one mate helping another. Thanks Benj. You're a legend.

join the chat > notseriouswinechats.nz 
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If you're struggling to put that glass down, perhaps our chats aren't the right ear candy for you.  While the chats are not serious, living your best life is a very serious matter indeed and a life fuelled by addiction doesn't sound dreamy at all.
If you think you need a hand, visit the Ministry of Health site for platforms that might help you take the first step towards taking control back. Our warmest wishes for success on that journey. 

Once again we step outside the winery and step up to the pass to grab a plate of goodness with two of Aotearoa’s finest hospo folk, Rebecca Smidt & Dariush Lolaiy of Cazador Restaurant & Deli and San Ray all day eatery. 

I’ve had the privilege of calling Bex and Dariush pals for a number of years now and it was a special treat to get them in the hot seat to hear how hospo life brought them together, first as teenagers and friends and then onto lovers, restaurant co-owners and the proud parents of two terrific little kiddos. 

Cazador Restaurant opened its doors in Tāmaki Makaurau in 1987. The vision of Dariush’s parents, Tony and Barbara, this joint became the ‘go to’ for the lucky locals living down one end of Dominion Road. From day one, Cazador established itself as a place that delivers nose to tail dining based on the respectful pursuit of hunting that Tony himself enjoyed and something that he would pass onto his son. 

After 25 years, having established Cazador as a trusted place to enjoy a plate or two, Tony and Barbara were keen to step away from the restaurant. 

Now, a family biz can be a difficult buzz. Retaining the dreams and aspirations of one generation while trying to put your own stamp on the place can be a lot of pressure, especially when there’s quarter of a century of existing vibes that might be perceived as somewhat sacred and untouchable. 

During this chat, Bex and Dariush explain how time spent living and working in Italy, Greece, London and New York led to a deep appreciation of how important that legacy is and what an enormous gift it might be – so long as they didn’t fuck it up. 

This chat covers wine, sherry and mezcal. We work our way through a platter of tinned treats and terrine. We scoff our faces with rabbit rillette and stickleback on sourdough and we wash it all down with a deliciously salty Spanish wine that Bex delights in serving at the restaurant. 

This chinwag covers the challenges of honouring the past while honing a vision for the future. We talk about how important the customer is and how at Cazador, they’re not serving food, they’re serving people and how important it is to invite the customer on the journey rather than ram it down their throat.  

I didn’t realise it, but I first met these two, right as they were starting their journey as the next gen of Cazador. I learn for the first time how that wasn’t an easy period and that the lessons being learned where mammoth. It’s the professional acumen of these two that I had absolutely no idea of the challenges in front of them and all I saw was an incredible young couple, utterly nailing it delivering the good times. 

And when I say good times, I mean deeply considered dishes that took me from my comfort zone that were perfectly paired with a wine selection that blew my fuse…and all conveyed with an approachable and casual style that cleverly disguised an extreme expertise in dining service. 

These two have taken out a number of awards for Cazador. As has the team they’ve nurtured within the 1970’s stucco walls of this now iconic establishment. Not content with sitting back and revelling in the accolades, they knocked out the front windows of the building and opened a deli. And have I mentioned yet that they also host personally guided food tours of Mexico? It’s enough to make you feel inadequate or the very least like you’re a lazy bastard. Especially when you realise they’ve just opened a new venture on Ponsonby Road called San Ray. Will these two quit already? Not likely. And thank goodness for that. 

So, pop on your finest hunting tweeds, grab your gumboots and get ready to sip spirits from a hip flask in the mai mai, this is the Not Serious Bex Smidt and Dariush Lolaiy chat.

not serious wine chats would like to thank our supporters:
Funded by Tradecraft
Supported with time and a place to record By the Bottle
Palate refreshing mineral water supplied by Antipodes Water Co.
Special thanks to my pal, Benj Brooking of Popular.nz for his help with the editing. An expert filmmaker, editing these chats is being done as one mate helping another. Thanks Benj. You're a legend.

join the chat > notseriouswinechats.nz 
instagram | facebook 

If you're struggling to put that glass down, perhaps our chats aren't the right ear candy for you.  While the chats are not serious, living your best life is a very serious matter indeed and a life fuelled by addiction doesn't sound dreamy at all.
If you think you need a hand, visit the Ministry of Health site for platforms that might help you take the first step towards taking control back. Our warmest wishes for success on that journey. 

Aidan Raftery hasn’t had formal training in winemaking but it seems wine has always featured somehow in some way in his life, a life that now happens to be making the stuff in a village somewhere in the Republic of Georgia. 

Born in the UK, he arrived in Aotearoa with his family as a young chap. Serendipity would have it that the family home was perched just around the corner from some wine writer, Master of Wine guy called Bob Campbell. 

With a curiosity of industrial proportions, Aidan took any opportunity to learn about wine from the neighbour, and his folks and to be honest, anyone who would engage in wine chats. 

Fast forward a few years and a need to leave our small island in the pursuit of more adventure and we follow Aidan’s journey to Melbourne where he established one of the first natural wine bars in the city and began to get his hands truly dirty with grape stain. It was here he gave winemaking a crack and fell even further into his own personal very deep wine cave. 

Aidan’s vim and vigour for learning, for making, for tasting and trying, for sharing and for caring about wine is bloody infectious. It’s also given him something of an enviable intrepid urge to follow his nose when it comes to wine adventures and nowhere says wine adventure more than Georgia, where the wine making history is deep, rich and UNESCO protected. 

If you think amphora and clay eggs are a new thing, you’re about 6000 years out of touch. It’s in this unexpected but fascinating part of the world that Aidan has really put down his winemaking roots. 

Chatting with this guy and drinking his wine is like being teleported to an utterly unknown terra firma. Grape varieties we’ve never heard of, inflictions on words that felt unfamiliar and hard to super pronounce all wrapped up in cultural traditions from a whole other time. This is one special chat with one special chap. 

So, put on your Chokha, put down your Panduri so you can pick up a glass and line up by the kvevris, this is the Not Serious Aidan Raftery chat.
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not serious wine chats would like to thank our supporters:
Funded by Tradecraft
Supported with time and a place to record By the Bottle
Palate refreshing mineral water supplied by Antipodes Water Co.
Special thanks to my pal, Benj Brooking of Popular.nz for his help with the editing. An expert filmmaker, editing these chats is being done as one mate helping another. Thanks Benj. You're a legend.

join the chat > notseriouswinechats.nz 
instagram | facebook 

If you're struggling to put that glass down, perhaps our chats aren't the right ear candy for you.  While the chats are not serious, living your best life is a very serious matter indeed and a life fuelled by addiction doesn't sound dreamy at all.
If you think you need a hand, visit the Ministry of Health site for platforms that might help you take the first step towards taking control back. Our warmest wishes for success on that journey. 

You might think I’ve taken a departure from the wine chats by not talking to a winemaker for today’s chat. Quite the contrary. 

For most of us, the restaurant setting is where we get our best exposure to wines we may not have heard of or tried before. 

The beverage selection is an important income earner for any hospitality joint and the restaurant is an important customer for our beverage producing pals. 

With such genuine simpatico it seems only right that we include those hard-grafting hospo heroes in the chats to get their not serious take on wine too. 

If you live under a rock, you may not know Chef Josh Emett. For the rest of us, he’s the familiar face from the MasterChef tele show, he’s the Chef who shares social media reels of  cooking in his home kitchen, he’s written a couple of cracking cookbooks and he’s the kiwi done good having earned himself a top international accolade or two alongside folks like Gordon Ramsay. 

The anchor to all that action is Helen Emett. She’s one astute, highly motivated woman with a fierce vision for good business and a major funny bone. She’s a hoot and she’s the perfect candidate for a Not Serious chat but believe me when I say she’s bloody serious about getting a dining room perfect and executing extraordinary service in the restaurants she and Josh now own together. You will have likely seen Helen working the floor at Onslow Restaurant and now Gilt Brasserie. 

These two are grafters and they’re givers. They took the time, on a busy Monday morning to sit down and share some stories about their journey and how wine for them, and a sweet cocktail here and there, adds the seasoning to their well-travelled lives. 

It was a pleasure to sit down in the divine dining room of Onslow for this chat. The kitchen was in full prep mode which you’ll sometimes hear! If you haven’t been to Onslow yet, go. And because Covid taught these two nothing, you’ll also find them at their new spot, Gilt on Chancery Lane. 

So, pop your napkin on your lap, pour yourself a sparkling antipodes and grab the knife and fork. This is the Not Serious Helen and Josh Emett chat. 

not serious wine chats would like to thank our supporters:
Funded by Tradecraft
Supported with time and a place to record By the Bottle
Palate refreshing mineral water supplied by Antipodes Water Co.
Special thanks to my pal, Benj Brooking of Popular.nz for his help with the editing. An expert filmmaker, editing these chats is being done as one mate helping another. Thanks Benj. You're a legend.

join the chat > notseriouswinechats.nz 
instagram | facebook 

If you're struggling to put that glass down, perhaps our chats aren't the right ear candy for you.  While the chats are not serious, living your best life is a very serious matter indeed and a life fuelled by addiction doesn't sound dreamy at all.
If you think you need a hand, visit the Ministry of Health site for platforms that might help you take the first step towards taking control back. Our warmest wishes for success on that journey. 

One Tuesday morning in Tāmaki Makaurau mid August, Pete, John and I had the chance to sit down at the table at Coco’s Sound Lounge and chew the fat with Rosie Finn of Neudorf Vineyards — and she can chat. 

Rosie almost broke Matt Dicey’s record of such adept conversational flow that next to no editing was required. Dreamy! Matt still holds the record but Rosie was hot on his heels with only two short excerpts ending up on the cutting room floor. 

It was a total treat to chat to this fine wahine who is truly flying the flag for successful succession — quite a thing for the NZ wine industry — all the while being a relatively new Mum herself. 

Rosie’s folks, Judy and Tim Finn (not the musician) started Neudorf in the 1970’s. Like almost all of our wine pioneers that meant a mortgage or two and a lot of fast learning. 

Fast forward to 2023 and their daughter Rosie has stepped into the family biz as her folks step out to enjoy retirement.

Rosie knows how to spin a yarn and in this chat she shares one of the best stories I’ve heard of pairing wine with food. It combines one wine and the cuisine of a Copenhagen based Michelin star restaurant and a night dive in an underwater cave set beneath Takaka Hill in the Kahurangi National Park. 

During our chat we had the pleasure of indulging in a sneak peak at the soon to be released 2022 Neudorf Rosie’s Block Amphora Chardonnay (coming at you 1 October). To say the wine was delicious is an understatement. While we crushed a cup, Rosie chatted away about how a Facebook post from Jude landed her a job with the wonderful wine ambassador Mel Brown at Pop Brixton, London. 

After what looked like a few years of nothing but fun Rosie reluctantly had to leave, unable to secure a visa extension. She returned home and suffered the common culture shock most of us kiwis feel after a few years of cutting loose in Blighty. She dried her teary eyes and took firm hold of the torch from Judy and Tim as the next generation to  drive this incredible family business. 

This was a chat that flowed from the moment we sat down. Rosie Finn is one delightfully funny woman.  So, find yourself a comfy spot, close your eyes and imagine you’re parked up somewhere on the beach in the Abel Tasman. The sun is shining that warming hue of Neudorf yellow and there’s a delicious glass of Chardonnay in your hand. This is the not serious Rosie Finn chat.

not serious wine chats would like to thank our supporters:
Funded by Tradecraft
Supported with time and a place to record By the Bottle
Palate refreshing mineral water supplied by Antipodes Water Co.
Special thanks to my pal, Benj Brooking of Popular.nz for his help with the editing. An expert filmmaker, editing these chats is being done as one mate helping another. Thanks Benj. You're a legend.

join the chat > notseriouswinechats.nz 
instagram | facebook 

If you're struggling to put that glass down, perhaps our chats aren't the right ear candy for you.  While the chats are not serious, living your best life is a very serious matter indeed and a life fuelled by addiction doesn't sound dreamy at all.
If you think you need a hand, visit the Ministry of Health site for platforms that might help you take the first step towards taking control back. Our warmest wishes for success on that journey. 

On a Sunday afternoon on Auckland’s aromatic Karangahape Road, we welcomed winemaker, Nick Mills from Rippon to the newly christened Coco’s Sound Lounge. In town, for the annual Negociants New Zealand Fine Wine Tour, we were grateful that Nick could squeeze us in for a little not serious chat and a laugh or two. This one is for the winos but it’s also for the ski hounds and the musos.  

I don’t use the term Original Gangster that often but in the case of Nick Mills and his family they are nothing short of Central Otago’s OGs. 

This family’s contribution to their local village goes back four generations and covers sustainable farming, grape growing, winemaking, a music festival that spanned 20 years and showcased some of our favourite musicians and a counter culture ski movement known as Free Skiing. 

Much like the vines that grace the schist slopes of the Rippon site, Nick’s roots go deep. He’s a philosopher both by education and natural curiosity. He’s learned and deeply, passionately invested in anything he puts his mind to.  Had it not been for a serious wipe out just a few months before the 1998 Nagano Olympics, this well known winemaker could have been a well-known Winter Olympian.  He worked through that heartbreak and headed for France where his learnings and love for biodynamic grape growing really took hold. 

For a not serious chat, we definitely had moments of intense reflection much of which was inspired by the absolutely epic 20 year old Pinot Noir Nick brought along for us to enjoy. Between utterly delicious sips we learned about the parallel lives of a ski racer and a winemaker, we learned how to taste for texture and how, as the current custodians of this remarkable place, this family strives to secure their future on the land. 

And let’s not forget how much these mountain people like to party. 

So, pull on your one-piece, pop in your ear buds and tighten your bindings. This is the not serious Nick Mills chat. 

not serious wine chats would like to thank our supporters:
Funded by Tradecraft
Supported with time and a place to record By the Bottle
Palate refreshing mineral water supplied by Antipodes Water Co.
Special thanks to my pal, Benj Brooking of Popular.nz for his help with the editing. An expert filmmaker, editing these chats is being done as one mate helping another. Thanks Benj. You're a legend.

join the chat > notseriouswinechats.nz 
instagram | facebook 

If you're struggling to put that glass down, perhaps our chats aren't the right ear candy for you.  While the chats are not serious, living your best life is a very serious matter indeed and a life fuelled by addiction doesn't sound dreamy at all.
If you think you need a hand, visit the Ministry of Health site for platforms that might help you take the first step towards taking control back. Our warmest wishes for success on that journey. 

Coordinating a time to record a chat with winemaker Dave Mackintosh in Auckland isn’t so hard. He’s something of a flying winemaker, dividing his time between the Big Smoke where his wife, Caitlin and their kids live, and Hawkes Bay where he makes wine under his newly established Kenzie brand. 

The Mackintosh clan returned home to Aotearoa after a solid fifteen years in Australia. If you’ve spent 10 minutes in a wine bar in Melbourne you may have crossed paths with Arfion, a wine made by Dave in a wine project that also involves his bros, Jimmy and Dad, Brian. 

Family is important to this laddie. Much of the reasoning behind the return to Aotearoa was to explore the legacy left by some stoic Scottish ancestors. Indeed, Kenzie draws its name from Annabella MacKenzie, Dave’s Great Grandmother who survived months in a boat on the ocean, the great depression and the Napier earthquake to put down new roots in the hope of starting a better life. 

She ought to be proud. The wines crafted in her honour pay homage by stylistically challenging the norms while artistically stating their place.

Part of our research before locking Dave in our padded sound studio was to blast out the beats of El Michel Affair and their rendition of the '90's hip hop Wu-tang Clan track Tearz. A tune that resonated so much with Dave he made and named a wine after it.

It was lovely to be introduced to Dave by the good folk at By The Bottle. We chatted away like old pals in a pub. So, pour yourself a wee dram of something bonnie, pack a plate of tatties to go with it and rest up for a wee spell of Coorie. This is the not serious Dave Mackintosh chat. 

not serious wine chats would like to thank our supporters:
Funded by Tradecraft
Supported with time and a place to record By the Bottle
Palate refreshing mineral water supplied by Antipodes Water Co.
Special thanks to my pal, Benj Brooking of Popular.nz for his help with the editing. An expert filmmaker, editing these chats is being done as one mate helping another. Thanks Benj. You're a legend.

join the chat > notseriouswinechats.nz 
instagram | facebook 

If you're struggling to put that glass down, perhaps our chats aren't the right ear candy for you.  While the chats are not serious, living your best life is a very serious matter indeed and a life fuelled by addiction doesn't sound dreamy at all.
If you think you need a hand, visit the Ministry of Health site for platforms that might help you take the first step towards taking control back. Our warmest wishes for success on that journey. 

Warning: this chat contains sulphur. 

Listen, we’re almost done talking about natural wine. It’s been the most debated movement in the modern wine world since screw caps filled the gap where a cork should go. 

It’s contentious partly because it doesn’t adhere to a specific set of rules for certification and there are such different definitions of what ‘natural’ actually means. It’s possibly also a tad divisive because it made a lot of established wineries feel like they were out of touch and not down with the kids.  

The old guard poo-pooed it as being a ‘fly-by-night’ experimental winemaking fling by try-hard kids that wouldn’t stand the test of time. Many scathingly scoffed at the lack of clarity the wine had in the glass and described the taste as terrible, lacking complexity that was full of faults that basically rendered it undrinkable. The randomness of wine labels lacking all the proper information also ruffled feathers. 

The reality though, is that natural wine as a category has brought a welcome injection of innovation and energy to the industry while paying homage (even if unwittingly) to the heritage and legacy of the wonderful traditions behind the craft that go back hundreds of years. Also, natural wine brands seem to have a common trait of no fear when it comes to designing eye-catching, arty wine labels and, well, we love that stuff.  

These days you’ll find wine bars and restaurants where the wine list is 100% natural wine. So, it feels like the world has accepted the movement is here to stay, thus rendering any further chat on the topic unnecessary. But, after long chats over a sherry or two and some excellent anchovies on toast at Alma, we realised we still had a bit to say on the subject — especially around the definition and the rules around sulphur in wine. 

So, fill your glass with something completely impossible to see through and feel the nature. This is the not serious natural wine chat. 

not serious wine chats would like to thank our supporters:
Funded by Tradecraft
Supported with time and a place to record By the Bottle
Palate refreshing mineral water supplied by Antipodes Water Co.
Special thanks to my pal, Benj Brooking of Popular.nz for his help with the editing. An expert filmmaker, editing these chats is being done as one mate helping another. Thanks Benj. You're a legend.

join the chat > notseriouswinechats.nz 
instagram | facebook 

If you're struggling to put that glass down, perhaps our chats aren't the right ear candy for you.  While the chats are not serious, living your best life is a very serious matter indeed and a life fuelled by addiction doesn't sound dreamy at all.
If you think you need a hand, visit the Ministry of Health site for platforms that might help you take the first step towards taking control back. Our warmest wishes for success on that journey. 

Many people think Jules is a man. She’s not. Much like winemaker Kim Crawford isn’t a woman. One thing Jules Taylor most definitely is, is a fierce maker of the wines.  She’s got the gongs to prove it including the title of Gourmet Traveller Wine New Zealand Winemaker of the Year 2021.

Unlike most of the winemakers working in Marlborough, Jules was born and raised in Blenheim. Her Mum and Dad still live there and it’s where Jules and George have raised their kids. It’s safe to say the roots of Jules Taylor, both the person and the wine brand are firmly, deeply, sincerely well established in our most well known wine growing region. 

Jules arrived to our podcast studio early and ready to go, despite this sort of thing not being her jazz. She admitted to having lost sleep, worrying about what to say. It’s ironic because she’s a dream to chat to and we had a lot of laughs as well as tasted some pretty great Marlborough wine — and it wasn’t just Sauvignon Blanc.

It’s all fond memories and feels on this chat so grab a glass of something wildly herbaceous and enjoy. This is the not serious Jules Taylor chat. 

not serious wine chats would like to thank our supporters:
Funded by Tradecraft
Supported with time and a place to record By the Bottle
Palate refreshing mineral water supplied by Antipodes Water Co.
Special thanks to my pal, Benj Brooking of Popular.nz for his help with the editing. An expert filmmaker, editing these chats is being done as one mate helping another. Thanks Benj. You're a legend.

join the chat > notseriouswinechats.nz 
instagram | facebook 

If you're struggling to put that glass down, perhaps our chats aren't the right ear candy for you.  While the chats are not serious, living your best life is a very serious matter indeed and a life fuelled by addiction doesn't sound dreamy at all.
If you think you need a hand, visit the Ministry of Health site for platforms that might help you take the first step towards taking control back. Our warmest wishes for success on that journey. 

Ben Leen is the winemaker at Amisfield winery in Central Otago but it is his side project, Alpine Wine Co. that we really wanted to talk about.  Ben’s hands-on, small batch production is matched with his big energy sales skills. He’s a winemaker who loves showing his wine and that enthusiasm is contagious which is why you’ll find his wines poured at some top places like Hello Beasty or Salty Pidgin when stocks allow. 

It's fair to say that if wine had its own cupid, that little archer has hit a bullseye when it comes to our Ben. He’s fallen head over heels for the romantic vision of a life spent making and enjoying wine. Those simple ideas of slowing life right down, working with the land and living a life of purpose fuelled by great cheese and delicious wine. What we love about Ben’s side project is it combines all that old world romance with a lot of new world curiosity. And he’s doing it with the whānau. Wife, Lucy, brother Josh and Josh’s wife, Kiri are all involved in Alpine Wine Co. too. 

Ben is an enthusiastic, driven guy ready to share the love of it all with us. Heck, he even called one of his wines ‘head over heels’ he’s that besotted — and quite rightly. It appears he’s living the dream and if I’m honest, it was hard not fall a little more in love with this whole wine malarkey just chatting to him. 

So, pour yourself a dreamy drop of something fitting for a first date and lie back on the chaise lounge. This is the not serious Ben Leen chat. 

not serious wine chats would like to thank our supporters:
Funded by Tradecraft
Supported with time and a place to record By the Bottle
Palate refreshing mineral water supplied by Antipodes Water Co.
Special thanks to my pal, Benj Brooking of Popular.nz for his help with the editing. An expert filmmaker, editing these chats is being done as one mate helping another. Thanks Benj. You're a legend.

join the chat > notseriouswinechats.nz 
instagram | facebook 

If you're struggling to put that glass down, perhaps our chats aren't the right ear candy for you.  While the chats are not serious, living your best life is a very serious matter indeed and a life fuelled by addiction doesn't sound dreamy at all.
If you think you need a hand, visit the Ministry of Health site for platforms that might help you take the first step towards taking control back. Our warmest wishes for success on that journey.