Jeremy Beckham is a long-time animal rights activist who I’ve wanted to have on the show for a while. For one, Jeremy has an encyclopedic knowledge of animal rights history – and the lessons from that history for anyone who cares about social change. For another, Jeremy has an important perspective on modern progressive politics, and how our desire for safety has insulated us from the very people we need to change.

But probably the most important reason I wanted to have Jeremy on is that he’s lived one of the most interesting lives of anyone I know. Raided by the government while living in a “squat” house in Utah; touring the country to protest primate experiments with a band of stuffed animals (who saved him at a key moment in his tour); and diving into the darkest aspects of our society, into spaces that few people even know about, much less dare to explore… Jeremy’s biography would make for a wonderful movie.

But it also has important lessons in it. Among the most important is this: to truly understand the world, or make change, you have to dive deep. This is a long one, but a fun one. Hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did, as Jeremy and I dive deep into a whole host of issues for nearly 3 hours.

Music by Moby: Everything That Rises