In the latest episode of Never Mind The Bar Charts, I talk with Sunder Katwala from the British Future think tank. Along with discussing civil rights in the age of coronavirus and the impact on BAME communities, he raised the important issue of the human bias towards pessimism and its impact on our reactions to the coronavirus crisis.

Feedback very welcome, and do share this podcast with others who you think may enjoy it.

• Sunder on how the Liberal Democrats can improve their diversity.

Like the show? Do follow on Twitter or Facebook. It's a great way to hear more about the podcast - and to let your friends and colleagues know about it too.