Outwitting the Manipulator

After 25 years in a coercively controlling relationship, author Eva Levina had to answer a difficult question: How did a strong, intelligent, capable woman stay for so long—and how could she make sure it never happened again?

In this candid conversation, Eva joins Robin to talk about the subtle warning signs that are easy to mistake for vulnerability, love, or even intimacy: the tragic backstory that activates your instinct to rescue, feigned helplessness, boundary testing, and the slow conditioning that teaches you to put someone else’s needs ahead of your own.

But this episode isn’t about blaming the manipulator—or blaming yourself. It’s about reclaiming agency.

Eva describes the “mental housecleaning” that helped her examine the patterns she brought into the relationship, stop organizing her life around someone else, and begin investing the same love, loyalty, energy, and support in herself that she had spent decades giving away. Robin and Eva also explore why personal responsibility is so different from self-blame, why boundaries require self-respect, and why controlling your response—not another person—is one of the most powerful skills you can develop.

The central message is simple: You may not control what someone else does to you, but you can learn to recognize the pattern, stop participating in it, and become the CEO of your own life.

Link to her book: https://a.co/d/0gV0vYak

Contempt doesn't start with violence. It starts with a comment about your skin, a look, a tone you're told to ignore. By the time it escalates, most people have spent years telling themselves it wasn't a big deal.

In this episode, family law attorney Diana Romanov joins Robin Golinski and Dr. Dennis Becker to talk about the manipulation patterns she sees every day in high-conflict divorce, custody, and domestic violence cases, and what she wishes every client understood before they ever hired a lawyer.

What we cover:

About our guest:

"Divorce Like a Boss" on YouTube

https://romanovlaw.com

Outwitting the Manipulator is hosted by communication coach Robin Golinski and Dr. Dennis Becker. You can't change the manipulator, but you can change the outcome.

Get the book: http://mybook.to/outwitthemanipulator  Visti us at https://outwitinrealtime.com

In this episode of Outwitting the Manipulator, hosts Dennis Becker and Robin Golinski sit down with Stephanie MacAlister, founder of Virtua Connect Counseling Clinic (a cross-Canada virtual counseling practice), who has counseled both perpetrators and survivors of domestic violence. The conversation traces how verbal manipulation and isolation typically precede physical violence in relationships, with Stephanie introducing her "dropping the bar" framework - the gradual process by which couples normalize escalating bad behavior, from yelling to name-calling to intimidation.

The group digs into what separates ordinary give-and-take in relationships from coercion, the concept of "informed consent" in communication, and a pointed disagreement over whether manipulators are generally "doing their best" or acting with more deliberate, nefarious intent - Robin pushes back on this based on her own 22-year experience with a manipulative partner, while Stephanie holds space for compassion rooted in mental-health complexity (Cluster B traits, narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder).

The episode closes with a practical communication tool the hosts teach: CCQ - be Curious, have Courage, and ask Questions - plus guidance on answering yes/no questions honestly rather than dodging them, since evasiveness itself can be a manipulation red flag.

Connect with Stephanie MacAlister here: https://virtualconnect.ca/

Topics

01:00 Meet Stephanie and Clinic

02:07 DV Work and Early Signs

05:43 Raising the Bar

07:08 Ask Questions and Listen

07:57 Defining Manipulation

10:26 Informed Consent Slippery Slope

12:18 Good Intentions Debate

15:55 Cluster B and Narcissism

18:45 Personal Example and Limits

22:22 Smart Likeable Manipulators

23:19 Stop Excusing Them

24:14 Protect Yourself With Words

24:46 Gray Areas And Motives

25:45 Boundaries Without Dehumanizing

27:26 Therapist Perspective On Lies

31:41 Read Nonverbal Answers

34:08 Yes Or No With Nuance

35:18 CCQ Curiosity Courage Questions

36:57 Wrap Up And Resources

What happens when you're grieving a parent and the sibling who should be your ally becomes your biggest obstacle? Nicole Hilgenkamp, founder of Your Parent's Keeper [http://yourparentskeeper.com], joins Robin to share her raw story of being the "designated daughter” - chosen to manage her mother's care, only to watch her oldest brother's manipulation tear the family apart. Robin breaks down the win-lose mindset driving the conflict, coaches Nicole live using the ethos-pathos-logos framework, and even scripts language she can use to rebuild the relationship. If you've ever dealt with a manipulative sibling during a parent's decline, this one will hit close to home - and give you a real playbook for navigating it.

Your Parent's Keeper http://yourparentskeeper.com

Topics

01:05 Caregiving Meets Manipulation

03:35 Family Ugliness After Loss

05:21 Preparedness and Care Stages

06:51 Decision Makers and Roles

09:49 Scorekeeping and Constant Battles

11:13 Contain the Manipulator

13:23 Texting and Documentation

15:26 Estrangement and Complicated Grief

18:10 Therapy and Letting Go

19:38 Family Cutoff Fallout

20:38 Protect Your Peace

21:53 Outwit the Manipulator

24:40 Ethos Pathos Logos

25:54 Ethos Script That Works

28:43 Boundaries and Hope

31:25 Why Love Backfires

34:29 Reaching Nieces and Nephews

36:18 Wrap Up and Resources

What happens when you have everything — the gated home, the charmed life, the husband everyone admires — and none of it is real? Author Mia J. Hanks spent 29 years married to a covert narcissist before walking away from it all. In this episode, Mia and Robin discover unsettling parallels in their stories: the slow erasure of identity, the moment a therapist's simple question exposed just how lost they'd become, and why the people closest to them couldn't help. Mia reveals what finally broke the spell — including a jaw-dropping moment in couples counseling that has to be heard to be believed. If you or someone you love seems to "have it all" but something feels deeply wrong, this one's for you.

Mia's Books:

Topics

01:16 Meet Mia Hanks

02:48 Covert Narcissist Explained

04:13 Leaving and Divorce Timeline

05:09 Losing Yourself to Gaslighting

07:28 Why Victims Get Targeted

10:31 Early Warnings and Denial

12:25 Financial Control Wake Up

13:30 Freedom Over Status

17:17 The Moment She Was Done

18:04 Therapist Kicks Him Out

20:40 Advice and Closing Thoughts

When a researcher who's spent 30 years studying human behavior from the chemical origins of life to modern relationships sits down with two communication coaches, the conversation goes places nobody planned. Dr. Jeremy Sherman, author of What's Up With A**holes?, challenges Robin and Dennis on the words we use, the rules we trust, and whether anyone can truly claim to be an expert on manipulation. What starts as a friendly interview turns into a real-time sparring match — with pushback and playful tension. If you've ever wondered whether your definition of manipulation holds up under pressure, this one will make you think.

Youtube

Whole channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjH_fBN6aQQ0uw5324tSrcg?view_as=subscriber

Ironic Mind Taffy: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRC3h5r-yj3eDLp7FKSc8-2Og_XcrLMUG

AI DT tells it like it is: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRC3h5r-yj3ctjAWRIuJYdMdZsDG8dzQZ

MAGAnificent Mike: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRC3h5r-yj3fstMDBZ-qdlDEewQUQ-aay

Words to try on Trumpies: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRC3h5r-yj3dYrDlrQLi02fHP-Zw1nzxT

Teleodynamics YT channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0k-ZVua7_rjOJy6UozU2KA

Psychology Today Blogs

Ambigamy: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ambigamy

Jerkology: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/jerkology

Social

FB Personal: https://www.facebook.com/jeremysherm

FB Psychoproctology: https://www.facebook.com/Psychoproct/

FB NWYAW: https://www.facebook.com/negotiatewyaw/

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyshermanphd/?hl=en

Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tryingbeings

https://www.tiktok.com/@maganificentmike

Substack: https://substack.com/@unsuresherman

Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/jeremysherman.bsky.social

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremyshermanphd/

X: https://x.com/Jeremyshermn

Books:

What's Up with A**holes?: https://a.co/d/0W5vCGY

Neither Ghost Nor Machine: https://a.co/d/652ewa9

Dr. Dennis Becker and Robin Golinski discuss two manipulative tactics, Conflation, and Dictating Feelings, and how to protect against them in depth. They define conflation as intentionally twisting multiple issues together so quickly that it’s hard to separate them, using examples from everyday situations and politics, and emphasize that active listening and slowing down in the moment helps identify and interrupt it. They recommend putting manipulators “on notice” rather than trying to change them, including using different responses depending on whether the manipulator is an ethos, pathos, or logos type, and keeping statements brief to avoid giving more “fodder.” They then explain dictating feelings—telling someone what they feel—and demonstrate how it can subtly destabilize a person’s self-awareness, advising interruptions, requests for specific examples, and calm delivery; they also note observers can briefly intervene to support targets.

Topics

01:05 Today’s Two Tactics

02:14 Conflation Defined

03:56 Conflation Examples

05:56 Spotting It in Real Time

09:00 Slow Down and Stop It

11:09 Scripts for Ethos Pathos Logos

13:15 Practice and Call It Out

15:50 Dictating Feelings Explained

18:37 Live Demo and Response

22:31 Handling Pushback and Delivery

27:01 Advocating for Others

28:53 Wrap Up and How to Reach Us

Dennis opens by making the case that this wasn't a debate at all: no judge, no timing, no rules, which changes what counts as a fair tactic. From there the two dig into the nonverbal layer — the wide smile that drops like a thud, the chuckle and eye roll used to make dismissal deniable, the micro-flash of contempt, and the shaking leg that gave away far more than its owner realized. Dennis flags the one moment the smile lasted a single second instead of four, and what that tell reveals about who lost control of the room.

They also cover the Gish gallop as a strategy, why questions are the real instrument of control in an argument, how rapid-fire interrogation is designed to push a target into fight-or-flight and shut down executive functioning, and the scorekeeping mindset that separates a manipulator from a tough opponent. Robin and Dennis don't fully agree — on whether the fast talking was style or tactic, on whether his approach counted as a good strategy — and their own inductive/deductive clash plays out on air, which turns out to be half the lesson.

Practical takeaways include: let the manipulator finish, then correct the inaccurate word first before answering anything; respond rather than react; and control the nonverbal channel, because your face can hand over a win your words never would.

In this episode

You can't change the manipulator, but you can change the outcome.

Dennis and Robin discuss whether it is ever appropriate for regular people to manipulate, and how that differs from the harmful adult manipulation they focus on: communication used for the manipulator’s gain with little or no concern for the other person. They explore the slippery slope between persuasion and manipulation, emphasizing consent and how omission, euphemisms, and emotion-based messaging can undermine free choice, using examples from marketing, advertising, workplaces, real estate language, charitable appeals, and politics. They argue that triggers and feelings (pathos) are often exploited versus facts (logos), and recommend three protections: be curious, have the courage to ask questions, and apply critical thinking, while modeling respectful disagreement and openness to changing one’s mind.

Topics

01:14 Should We Ever Manipulate?

03:16 Defining Manipulation

06:01 Consent and Compliance

09:32 Marketing and Charity Appeals

16:12 Euphemisms and Word Choice

18:30 Politics Pathos and Logos

21:43 Curiosity Courage Critical Thinking

In this episode Dr. Dennis Becker and Robin Golinski delve into the nuanced world of conflict and manipulation with special guest Michael Lee, director of the Civility Initiative at the College of Charleston. They explore the dynamics of conflict avoidance, the power of curiosity in defusing tension, and the importance of embracing healthy conflict. Michael shares his experiences from his podcast, "When We Disagree," and offers practical advice on handling disagreements productively. Tune in for an enlightening discussion on maintaining civility in a divided world and strategies to protect oneself from manipulative tactics.

Topics

01:38 Meet Michael Lee

02:17 Fight Versus Flight

03:58 Conflict Avoidance Culture

05:59 Conflict And Disagreement

07:36 Four Conflict Mindsets

11:06 Healthy Versus Unhealthy Conflict

15:07 Avoiding Manipulators

16:01 Gottman Four Horsemen

20:12 Power And Attention

22:12 Handling Heated Encounters

27:21 Curiosity As Defense

30:07 Wrap Up And Plugs