Billy Corgan sits down with Penn Jillette for a sprawling, razor-sharp conversation that moves from magic to morality. What begins as a discussion about deception quickly becomes something deeper: why consent turns lying into art, and why Penn proudly calls himself an “honest liar.” Penn traces his path from a strict Christian upbringing to agnosticism and atheism, shaped by mentors like James Randi, a teenage crisis of faith in science, and a romantic (and very real) stint as a street performer inspired by Bob Dylan. Along the way: clown college, illegal busking, Vegas stages, and a 50-year creative partnership with Teller performing magic without disrespecting the audience.

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