Keeping yourself fit and healthy and in shape is vital for life’s long game. And no-one understands that more than celebrated chef Neil Perry, who chats with organisational psychologist Dr Amanda Ferguson about what it takes to survive the demanding restaurant game for more than 40 years.

About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA.

Join Jean Kittson for the seventh season of DARE: The time of your life (formerly Life’s Booming), called Better With Age. 

Too often ageing is painted as decline. In reality, Australians are living longer, healthier lives and reshaping what “older” looks like. This series flips the script and shows how ageing is not a dirty word but rather a time to be embraced, featuring interviews with extraordinary over 50s refusing to slip quietly into the background, who instead continue to survive and thrive in the long game of life.

Neil Perry is Australia’s most decorated chef. The culinary genius behind Rockpool and winner of the 2024 World’s 50 Best Icon Award, Neil has spent 40 years at the very top of his craft, including his latest venture, the Margaret Family Group. Staying there hasn’t been accidental. It takes relentless passion, resilience, and an unwavering belief that what you put on the plate – and into your body – genuinely matters.

Dr Amanda Ferguson is a registered psychologist, organisational psychologist, author and speaker, whose three-decade career has been devoted to helping people find meaning, motivation and wellbeing in work, life and relationships.

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Watch DARE: The Time of Your Life on YouTube   

Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Apple Podcasts 

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For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency

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TRANSCRIPT:​

Jean Kittson: DARE the time of your life, formerly Life's Booming, is brought to you by Australian Seniors in partnership with RSPCA. For more episodes of this and our Life's Booming series, visit seniors.com.au/podcast. 

 

Hi, I'm Jean Kittson. Welcome to the latest season, Better with Age, where we are celebrating Australians who are living, working, and ageing on their own terms. No ageing stereotypes for them. 

This week's episode is called Playing the Long Game, and no one exemplifies what that means more than our first guest, Neil Perry. With a career spanning more than four decades, he is one of our most influential chefs. Indeed, he's the only Australian to receive the prestigious World's 50 Best Restaurants Icon Award, the food oscars. The culinary genius behind Rockpool, and his latest venture, the Margaret Family Group, Neil has survived the often brutal hospitality world without disappearing or burning out.

And joining him is Dr Amanda Ferguson, registered psychologist, organisational psychologist, author, and speaker whose career has been devoted to helping people find meaning, motivation, and wellbeing in work, life and relationships. Neil and Amanda, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. 

Neil Perry: Thanks, Jean. Good to be here.

Jean Kittson: Neil, the restaurant business is often very brutal, long hours, highly competitive, stressful, fickle market, lots of pressures, all that, not that I want you to feel any pressure from me about this, but you've not only survived, but you've thrived for over 40 years.

So, what do you think is the key ingredient or the secret ingredient to your longevity? 

Neil Perry: Well, I think just the enthusiasm of which I approach every day because, I mean, you know, it is an old cliche, but they say if you find a job you love doing, you'll never work a day in your life.

And I am lucky enough to have found, you know, something that's intrinsic in lifestyle. So I kind of dream about food. I eat food, I wake up, I work in it. You know, my whole focus on a daily basis is about my restaurants, my staff and how we grow and continually evolve. So, I've kind of spent the last 51 years in the industry continually evolving rather than, you know, sort of deciding, oh my God, I've gotta change what I'm doing.

I'm just day by day trying to do better than I did the day before. And that's a kind of mantra that we roll into the entire team so that they're always thinking about getting better and more focused and getting the best out of themselves and growing as people, which is really important.

So, I think that's helped me keep an edge to continually keep thinking that. You know, I've got a role in the industry and I wanna keep moving forward. And, you know, tomorrow is another day and it's another day that I get an opportunity to be better than I was the day before. 

Jean Kittson: And you translate that to your teams by the sound of it, that is important.

Neil Perry: Until I was 25, I was working front of house and managing restaurants and running restaurants, which has kind of helped me become a restaurateur rather than just a chef. And then at 25 transitioned into the kitchen and it was really obvious to me that there tended to be a kind of ‘us and them’ culture in the restaurant business.

And we see with a lot of things at the moment on chefs and the way they treat people and they have treated people, and particularly in Europe, that it can be a very hard place to be. But, I made a very conscious decision to try and make it, you know – more about the way my personality is anyway – but to make it a place where it was really, everyone working together as one team, no front and back of house. It was, you know, really everyone coming together to make sure that the most important person in the room was the customer – and that we were supporting each other. So through the care philosophy, which, you know, is a really simple word, but it embodies itself in so many things that we do.

So, you know, we care about our incredible suppliers. They're the lifeblood of our restaurant. Our amazing farmers and fishermen and, you know, incredible vignerons and so forth. And then it's really about caring about the place in which we work, because I really love to have a restaurant that's as beautiful 10 or 15 years down the track as it is the day that it opens. More patina, of course, but like a great pair of shoes – loved and comfortable – and that's really important to me. 

And then core to, I guess, the whole thing is we gotta care about each other. So we try to make sure that, you know, we're checking in. Are you okay? You know, are you doing your mise en place or can I help you set up the restaurant?

And make sure that if we think somebody's coming in and they've got issues at home or with relationships, or even with a relationship within the restaurant, that we're trying to solve that and make sure that we can get to the point where we're all pulling in the same direction.

And then for us, community's key. So caring about our community. We've always been involved in fundraisers and trying to help people that are less fortunate than us. We're in a very privileged position to be able to do that as restaurateurs and chefs. 

And then care about the environment because if we don't have clean air and clean water and clean earth, we can't get that amazing produce. It's my role to make them better chefs, better waiters, better sommeliers, better managers. But I like to make them better people.

I always say at every large staff gathering, probably most of them under 30, that, you know, my generation kind of sucked the marrow out of the world, and it's up to them to make sure that the next generation of leaders are held to account.

So, I do try to get them to think about community, you know, sustainability and politics – and their role in it. And that makes them hopefully, you know, more rounded people. 

Jean Kittson: Well, it sounds to me that longevity we're talking about and that success, so it would go the other way too. Do you get a lot of support from them? Because you give them so much care and attention and your expertise and you're bringing them up. And do they support you when there's challenges as well? 

Neil Perry: Yeah, of course. I mean, I always say that I'm kind of like a vampire. So, you know, I run this amazing team of people with huge amounts of energy and youth and they need to be guided and sort of, you know, given opportunities in life.

But in return, I get so much energy and so much joy from them that that actually keeps me young. I look through my eyes and I actually think that I'm their age, you know? 

Jean Kittson: And Amanda, in your work, in different industries, do you see this teamwork as part of an essential ingredient as well in different industries? What helps your clients? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Every industry is different in terms of how much teamwork you're gonna have and gonna need.

Certainly in Neil's area, you can see the necessity of people there physically, and yet we've got a lot of remote working now and a lot of organisations have pivoted that way. But I think, Neil, you were talking beautifully about a whole lot of organisational psychology concepts like growth mindset; that the growth factor of helping these younger people moving forward and growing.

And we know that the growth mindset is important for all ages and you know, fundamental to performance anyway, but then to ageing performance, this engagement Neil's talking about, what makes him engaged and motivated internally. That's what we know, as we get older, matters even more than when we're younger.

So a lot of your younger staff, they're really motivated by extrinsic, which is external reward, which is building their careers and gaining money and being able to put down any roots that they can do at the time of their lives. And yet, these internal motivations are what are driving us as we age increasingly, which is about contributing, which is the influence you're having, the legacy you're creating. And that clearly motivates you as well with the care concept there, which is a wonderful driving factor. 

Jean Kittson: Do you think that keeps people more engaged with the work they do and able to meet challenges better? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Well, as long as you shift with your motivation. So we change across the lifespan, and Ericsson talked about the tasks of different ages and stages of life. Those travel with us during, staying at the top of our game. And so as long as we keep negotiating them, which is where our motivation's gonna change. So now, you know in our 60's, the main motivation there for the life stage is about legacy, and then it's gonna become wisdom, and moving into the wisdom part that we're negotiating with.

So it's like in any generation pivoting, continuing to pivot even in older age. And you know, not giving up, you know, that there is a choice there that people make and have to be conscious of. Ericsson said at 63, it's a real challenge of; are you gonna regenerate or are you going to degenerate?

Jean Kittson: Right.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes. 

Neil Perry: I think it's really important for people to recognise that a lot of things that happen to them are within their control. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Mm-hmm. 

Neil Perry: So for me, you know, I'll be 70 next year, so in 10 years I'm 80. 

So, you get a choice of thinking, well, you know, I've got 11, hopefully, very mobile years ahead of me. Because there's no guarantee physically, particularly when you've worked as many hours as I have and worn out most of the joints in your body, that you're going to be fabulously mobile. 

But it's important for me now, like, as we all know with longevity, like muscle mass is very important. So it's important for me to do enough exercise and it's really important for me to also think about balance and also flexibility.

The three things that probably give you the most opportunity to get into your 80s and live the sort of life you'd still love to lead. And I know people who I always say are very inspirational to me who are like that hitting their eighties and, you know, still going out and playing golf and going on holidays and still working and doing things and I think that'll always be a very important part of my life.

I couldn't imagine retiring. I could imagine taking it a little bit easier, you know, maybe not working every weekend, but I couldn't imagine not having the motivation mentally to come in and set parameters and talk to the chefs and speak to the wonderful fishermen and the farmers and the people that are the most important people in my life.

So I just think for me, it's a matter of kind of putting the energy into those things that will give me the kind of outcome that I want. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And that's your internal motivation. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. There's a very traditional, you know, big pharma way of thinking about medicine and the body.

And we now know that there's a very well documented and proven, you know, functional way of looking at it. We know diet's really important, so I eat really well. I mean, one of the things that's great for me is I don't eat really any processed food at all, probably except for bacon, which I love.

Jean Kittson: You said processed. That's not processed. It's just dry. 

Neil Perry: Not really. It's like when I make our hamburgers, people say, ‘oh yeah, you eat a hamburger.’ Yeah, it's like freshly ground beef. That's what it is. It's got properly made sauces and it's got a bun, you know, so it's actually pretty good for you. I'm not sure about the other processed ones but, you know, I do think if you eat a lot of whole food, it's really important.

I mean, my probably one sin in my life is I love red wine. So, I'm thinking a lot about, you know, how much I drink and maybe I should cut back. But every time I think about that it's just, you know.

Jean Kittson: Too hard!

Neil Perry: I think is it worth an extra couple of years? Maybe not. 

Jean Kittson: No, that's right. Benefit. 

Neil Perry: You gotta get the balance.

Jean Kittson: Risk benefit. Risk benefit. Amanda, do you see that people with longevity in their chosen careers, do you see that as a psychological important part of them surviving, you know, playing the long game? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Oh, absolutely. And look, most of those people will either have really pivoted in their careers away from say, line management to supervising or training in a corporate kind of job. Or if you're lucky enough, I think as both Neil and I are, to actually love what you do and live to work because we get so much like a vampire back from the…

Jean Kittson: Yes. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: The beautiful energy of what we give out and what comes back.

And that's engagement, that's called employee or work engagement, where we love and like our work. So clearly the cognition side that Neil loves, you know, the way he thinks about all his work as well as emotionally, what he's gaining and giving, and giving out cognitively – so everyone has a different long game.

You know, I'll often say to people who have worked to live; ‘don't just retire, retire to something.’ And that's when they may sort of, you know, think of buying another business that is actually non-corporate, where they can have their staff if they're similarly engaged or creative outlets where they can really be more creative in the workplace or in hobbies or pursuits or golf.

So, you know, the long game may be pivoting to being the brilliant golfer in your peer group. 

Jean Kittson: Right. Using your energy in your, yeah, well that sounds pretty good. but use that drive…

Neil Perry: Frustrating game though. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. Frustrating game. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Well, yes, use the pivoting drives because as we age, the reason that we are motivated changes. 

So it's typically becoming, as we are entering post 50s, we're moving from – and certainly from late forties – we're moving from being really motivated by caring for others to wanting to build a legacy. 

And so if you feel your legacy is in the community, say, of having the surf club managed really that legacy may matter. And even having a plaque for yourself or you might become an elder to the local surf group.

So, it's the pivoting and noticing and negotiating the lifespan changes that you have to go through in order to keep this motivation, engagement, growth mindset and risk failure – and have fun along the way. I mean, all those basic performance motivations and factors, they all still apply in older age.

We draw on that breadth of knowledge and survive and thrive because of that, you know, it doesn't matter that the cognitive decline is happening. If you are pivoting, if you're compensating with all of that knowledge and ability and, you know, even muscle memory that you would have, definitely for your work.

Jean Kittson: I think they call it crystallised experience. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes. 

Jean Kittson: Have you heard that expression? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes.  

Jean Kittson: Yes. So that's very valuable to workplaces. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Absolutely. 

Jean Kittson: I know you've been talking about legacy and I would think that Neil's already got an enormous legacy. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Exactly. 

Jean Kittson: And you could, you know, leave the business tomorrow and you'd still be as renowned and as admired and respected. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Except the care of the younger people. 

Neil Perry: Yeah, absolutely. Getting young people to care. I mean, it starts really with kind of, you know, you get young 16, 17-year-old people coming and working with us. 

I mean, we're very lucky through COVID that my daughters were in year 9 and 11. And when we came out of COVID and staff was very difficult, we'd already been doing, sort of, takeaway and burgers and everything we possibly could to survive. 

And one of the things that all these young kids loved, they loved coming and working for us because they're very social. And all of a sudden, for four months of their life, they were like, you guys cannot be together.

So, for them to come and work and putting little bits of sources in containers and doing all that stuff. But to see them sit around a table, eight of them, and laughing and, you know, engaging and being social was just so wonderful because I know, with my girls, you could really sense that they were struggling and they really missed that. 

So they then came on to be, you know, the kids who worked in our restaurants, all of their friends, and they were anywhere from 15 through to 17.

And we've put many of them through university. And so, they're a really important part of what Margaret is, and that makes it an incredible family restaurant beside the fact that my three daughters and wife worked there as well. 

So what was really wonderful was for their parents to come in and have dinner and just say, ‘thank you, you've really taught our daughters what it is to, or our son, what it is to strive,’ you know, to try to be the best you possibly can. And I just thought it was a really wonderful impact to have on young people.

And then other times where we get young kids in the kitchen, 16, 17, and they're, you know, used to eating processed food and cans of drink and, you know, all the sorts of stuff that I dislike immensely. We don't force them, but we try to make them appreciate real food and whole food.

And, you know, every day we have a family meal when we're open and it's not leftovers, it's a planned meal. We buy food in and our kids, you know, get in pairs and they get to prepare a family meal. We have some fantastic… 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Wow.

Neil Perry: dinners because we have kids from Korea and Indonesia and Singapore and China, Greece and Spain and Italy. And so we just get these amazing, very traditional meals cooked with real food. 

My motivation is to move the goals for those kids and to show them not just restaurant food, but what good eating is, to value and how to enjoy because, you know, part of their training is really tasting everything that we make and making sure that everything's perfectly balanced.

But I want them to understand what, you know, eating and enjoying life is really all about because we have to eat to survive. So it's really wonderful. We can get great joy out of that as well. You know, it's the icing on the cake.

Jean Kittson: That is a wonderful legacy, but also then they will learn and pass it on. I mean, do you see your role as a chef and a restaurateur, in the broader community, as education as well about food?

Neil Perry: Yeah. Oh, very much so. And that's been like, I think I've got 11 cookbooks that I've put out since 1994 was the first one. 

Jean Kittson: And your recipes are fantastic, by the way.

Neil Perry: Yeah. I wrote for Good Weekend for, you know, 15 years. Nearly every book is the same, in essence, because it all starts out with good cooking is good shopping. So, you know, if you buy beautiful produce, you'll end up, and that doesn't mean spending a fortune, it means cooking with a season, and often that'll be the cheapest way to buy fruit, vegetables, whatever it might be. 

And, you know, eating fresh food. You know, if you prepare fresh food or eat lovely fresh food when you go out, again you know, from a lifestyle point of view, it's just so much easier to process, so much better for you.

You know, I really learned how to wash, dry and dress a salad properly at Stephanie's. And that's been very fundamental to all the things that I've done through my career and like people come to my place, they go, ‘oh my God, the salad's amazing.’ Well, it's just, you know, really well washed, dried and dressed and seasoned lettuce. I hope to impart on the next generation is just the fundamentals of doing stuff properly. 

Jean Kittson: Properly. I'm going to make sure I dry my lettuce properly now. 

Neil Perry: You must have a salad dry. You must dry your lettuce properly.

Jean Kittson: Yes. It's pretty old. My salad dry. But to think that even three months with an elder in your business, like Stephanie, had such a big impact, shows what an elder and that experience has… 

Neil Perry: Well, she was older, but she wasn't that much older than…

 Jean Kittson: Oh I'm sorry. 

Neil Perry: Steph must be like, she would probably hate it if I said it, but, you know, approaching 80 or in her eighties. 

Jean Kittson: Oh, not that much older… 

Neil Perry: But back then she was probably in her early forties or whatever, and I was 26.

I guess the reason it was so impactful for me is that because I'd run restaurants and managed restaurants and my father kind of taught me pretty much everything about food. Because he was a butcher, you know, mad keen angler. So we went fishing all the time on our holidays and he came from the country, so we were lucky enough to have a small garden and grew vegetables.

So he taught me all about the seasons. But when I did my year of working with a whole lot of great chefs in Australia, I was 26, I'd run restaurants, you know, I'd been buying the wine, you know, doing lots of wine tastings, buying fish for the seafood restaurant I worked for, running the books, doing everything.

So as soon as I jumped into that environment of working with chefs, I was like a 26-year-old, highly motivated, knew the business really well, so it really focuses you.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: You've adapted and you've pivoted with the times, like you said with COVID and, you know, that's where you regenerate all the time. 

Neil Perry: Yeah, well, I have a nasty habit of opening restaurants in like – if I'm about to open a restaurant, anyone in the stock market should look at it and go like, ‘okay, where's my investment opportunity or divestment?’

Because when I opened Rockpool in– I started building in 1988. I opened it in the middle of the recession. We had to have, in 89, we had 18% interest rates. We'd borrowed 1.8 million, you know, Trish and I had to pay 360,000 in interest. I mean, made $0 for working 18 hours a day, six days a week for the first year.

And we were just lucky that it all of a sudden hit the spot. So we were full. And I suppose the positive was unemployment was about 10%. So, it was easy to get staff. And then when I was opening Rockpool Bar and Grill in Sydney and Spice Temple, you know, we spent $11 million on that project and the GFC came along.

And then the day that I was about to open Margaret in June, 2021, Gladys got on the TV and said, ‘okay, the Eastern Suburbs is shutting down.’ And then the next day she went, ‘the whole of Sydney's shutting down.’ And about a week and a half into that, feeling very sorry for myself, and this is the first time I'd owned a restaurant, 100%, you know, my own. I'd had partners before that since ‘83 all the way through.

And I just remember that feeling of like, hang on. You just cannot sit here and feel sorry for yourself anymore. You've got staff to worry about, you've gotta get yourself back into action. So it was like, you know, zoom calls, getting all the staff, getting all the management team, making sure that everybody who worked for us was having the opportunity to engage in any government relief that they possibly could through the job keeper and workforce scenarios with state and federal. And importantly recognising what we could pivot to and how we can engage with the community.

And it was incredible. We worked our butts off for four months. I made absolutely $0, but I didn't lose anything. And that was with a whack of government assistance. I'd been lucky enough to do some trials and have some corporate sellouts before they shut us down, before we were supposed to officially open.

And it was an extraordinary time, but it meant that those 50 people that we were all working together every day, albeit not running the restaurant, but we were living in the restaurant. We were moving through the kitchen. We were cooking, we were doing all this stuff. And then we got to retrain again, and then we opened. And it's the best restaurant opening I've ever done. So we were under restrictions, we couldn't do as many people, but it was just extraordinary. And, to this day, like in the entire, probably open 27 restaurants in my life. So, that was just, you know, the most extraordinary opening ever because we had the time to do it properly.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: So, that's a beautiful vignette I think of self-compassion, which is that hang on, you know, you can't feel sorry for your self courage. And the wisdom that, you know, I’ve done it before, pivoted before with major world crises. Do it again. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you did it. 

Jean Kittson: Do you find that as a common experience for people who can…

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes. 

Jean Kittson: Have longevity? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Absolutely. Because again, we've got the wisdom. We may not have as much cognitive capacity. We've got the wisdom.

If you can find the courage, you know, and a lot of elderly people don't have that. They lose it because of ageism around us. It's having a big effect, the loss of self-esteem, but we have more ability to self-regulate, the research shows, generally, most of us. 

And so, you regulated yourself, which is very much about resilience and self-management and, you know, the wisdom that you drew on. And so it's leaning into the database that we really have inside ourselves, and the knowledge that isn't just about conscious ability. It's about, okay, I've been there before.

Obviously you must have cast back to oh, we did the GFC, we did the other challenges. This is just another one. And age gives us that perspective that, okay, we are looking now from here to death, whereas people earlier– sorry younger than us are looking from how long I've been alive to where I am now. So that perspective…

Jean Kittson: Right.

Neil Perry: There is an end to this game. Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, you're right. I mean, I probably, it's only about five years, so probably since I was 64 or 65, I just started, you know, having these odd moments not of, you know, not of depression or, you know, dark thoughts.

I've only got so long to achieve what I want to achieve. You know, so before,  you're right, you were kind of looking forward, just going like, oh, there's no end game to this. Let's just keep forging forward. It's certainly a life perspective change that happens to you.

Jean Kittson: So do you think the long game turns into the shorter game maybe?

Neil Perry: Yeah. Gotta get this done game. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Or have fun while we can game!

Jean Kittson: Or how do I ensure, really. When people– I'm just a little bit confused 'cause there's self-compassion. But what Neil mentioned kept him going was not self pity. So, what’s the difference?

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Self-compassion is completely different. And this is where we are finding a lot of, you know, high performing musicians and elite athletes cringe at the idea that they should take on self-compassion. No, it's about beating yourself up to get to move forward.

Yeah. And then when you really counsel them that it's about courage. It's about wisdom that you're going to keep tearing your muscles if you keep pushing forward when you are actually having a weak day. Take some wisdom there and just back off a bit on the training. It's not, you know, feeling sorry for yourself.

You know, a lot of people think, oh, self-compassion is self-soothing and positive talk. And if you dig deeper into the current research, it really is about this courage mindset, this wisdom mindset, even at younger ages. And once these younger people wrap their mind around it, and they take it on, they perform better. 

Look at Roger Federer. You know, look how he had to develop this self-compassion of courage and wisdom to learn how to play the ball. You know, he didn't retire till 41, but he was burning out and he was focused on performance and any failure, he was visibly, you know, having tantrums. He had to pivot his mindset to this courage, determination, grit, but also this mental resilience factor where it's not emotional now.

And that's what you would've done too. You would've gone into the mindset that was needed, which is a growth mindset. It's like, how do we pivot? How do we learn? And Federer is a great public example, as are you, of course. 

Jean Kittson: When people lose their confidence as they get older because they are undermined, there is ageism, they probably feel that they are not achieving what they used to achieve on certain levels. Maybe it's, you know, they lose their confidence because of the way they talk to themselves, but also the way, external factors, some people are retrenched. How do people– how have you found that people overcome that lack of confidence? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: So many different ways, Jean. You know, again, it's play to your strengths. I've counseled people who've been retrenched seven times, you know, it's like, you know, sick of that now the corporate burn and churn wheel, you know, is it time to pivot into something different if you're that jaded? And others are like no, I'm gonna start my own business.

I've got a podcast on how it's an internal external conundrum – confidence. It's what you're thinking, so yes, the mindset, but it's also what you're doing to keep your confidence because the research shows that most of us know we're losing cognitive capacity.

And if you’re then pivoting, accordingly, rather than feeling unconfident about that, that's just a part of life. Where’s all the rest of your confidence? Because we do know that if you do compensate with all the other confidence areas that we've got in wisdom, knowledge, expertise, experience, you know, the perspective of we’re looking towards the end of life now and that gives us a fantastic perspective that we need in our phase of life.

Jean Kittson: Yes, and to pass on to others. Yeah. When you say we are losing cognitive capacity. Is it capacity or function? What ability? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: It’s capacity. Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: Capacity. That's a scary thing because I think, oh, you mean we can't think as clearly, but I feel like I can make better decisions now than I ever could. So what is that word? Cognitive.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Information processing. It's very much up-skilling, re-skilling. We know that older people typically don't want to retrain. They don't want to relearn new things unless you can pivot them to what motivates them. Now, you are motivated about passing on and standards and excellence and your influence continuing.

And so you've probably, you know, you are relearning as you go, what's happening with the economy, so that I can continue to be confident and have my capacity working for me. So, it's an unconscious thing we are doing, really, that we're compensating from capacity, which is about information processing, about retraining to, well, I'm willing to retrain. I'm willing to understand what's happening for the farmers, for the economy, for the fuel supply, for what organisational psychology calls VUCA times that we're in which is volatile, uncertain, challenging, ambiguous.

You know, I'm relearning about the state of the world because my motivation is helping people of course. And so, if I wasn't motivated by that, I wouldn't use my cognitive ability that I do still have left for that. So, it's the combination of so many different factors at play as we age. 

Neil Perry: So Amanda, is that in speed of processing or is that just capacity of processing?

Dr Amanda Ferguson: It's in speed. We don't want to work an 80 hour week anymore. So, that lack of cognitive ability that the twenties has – when we're in our twenties – we happily do an 80 hour week. We're just not interested and it's harder.

The labour for that cognitively is harder because of our loss of capacity. And so, we have to keep pivoting. We have to keep drawing on the growing skillset that we do have, which is more about the wisdom and knowledge base that is so broad that we don't even realise what we're using often. And that continues to grow in middle age.

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Into older age, and the research shows we can perform as well as people in their twenties. 

Neil Perry: By using that capacity of what we know as opposed to what they don't know. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: That's right. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you're not even conscious a lot of the times what you're drawing on.

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: That body of research is so robust. There's this concept that's totally misconstrued that we are less able as we get older. 

Jean Kittson: I think that whole cognitive decline is so loaded. I really, find... 

Neil Perry: Well, we live in the age of Alzheimer's and dementia and, I mean, you know… 

Jean Kittson: Yes, of course. 

Neil Perry: I just don't ever remember growing up, when I was younger, and ever hearing that term.

And of course now it's like ADHD and everything that's happening with kids now, and everyone on the spectrum – and that just was not happening when I was younger. I just don't ever remember it even in my forties. But now, in the last 20 years, everything seems to be so focused on all of the various mindsets that can happen to a person.

Jean Kittson: I just feel that the restaurant industry has retained so much of its human content. 

Neil Perry: Yeah, absolutely. 

Jean Kittson: Humanity, eating together with your team. And the care of food and the environment, it all goes hand in hand. So you are very lucky to be part of…

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: That sector, rather. 

Neil Perry: Well, you know, somebody said to me the other day, ‘oh, when do you think you'll start using Tesla robots?’ And I said, ‘well, how about never?’ 

Our main focus is to create great memories, right? I tell everybody, ‘yeah, sure we're in the restaurant business,’ but our main focus is to create great memories. And that's what drives our business – word of mouth. People say, ‘oh my God, I have the best time at Margaret.’

And it was interesting because in 2002, I got a phone call from Scott Bowles, who is still doing Short Black, which is the gossip column in the Sydney Morning Herald for food. And he said a magazine in London, they asked 300 people their five favorite restaurant experiences in the world. And Rockpool finished fourth. 

And I thought, wow, that's incredible. And I spent seven years on that list. But, I came back to my team and I said, ‘see, we're in Sydney and most of these people would not have been to Sydney, so we must have got a lot of hits on the ones that did.’ So, that's living proof that great memories are created in this restaurant. 

By having you feel like this is your second home, you know, like our regulars are so important and anybody who's a first time visitor is a great opportunity to create a regular. That's how we look at it. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. 

Neil Perry: And we want people to feel like this is their second home.

They're so comfortable here. You know, we know what they drink. We know what they like. We know the interactions and conversations and we want people to just think, oh, I've just gotta get back to Margaret, because I not only love the food, but I just love this whole experience of feeling like I'm part of the family.

I don't think you'll ever be able to AI replace that. And I hope I'm well dead and buried if it ever happens, because it would break my heart if that happened. 

Jean Kittson: If we all had to do everything online and then, well, even the QR code doesn't code, doesn't…

Neil Perry: Drive you crazy. 

Jean Kittson: In the pubs, now you order your food on the QR code. 

Neil Perry: I'm lucky enough to be well positioned to know people in restaurants that I want to go to or even around the world. So, I just never get online and make a booking. You know, it's always a phone call or a quick text or something, but all that stuff just takes the romance.

I mean, I almost, I thought I wanted to give up restaurants when I got to the stage where we had to bring the EFTPOS machine over and leave it. I just thought romance is dead. 

Okay. I got over that. We moved on, and the technology works really well for everybody now. And, I guess the one thing about the stuff of the ordering and what have you as more and more restaurants move towards – potentially not even that – but different opportunities with technology on table, you'll still have waiters and all that stuff, but, you know, you get the walk, the check ability and all. It's just making life more convenient. But again, a lot of this is at the expense of the romance of what it's all about. And, you don't have a great memory of a seamless experience. You have a great memory of an interactive experience.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: But you seem to be compensating for that with the care mentality. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. You have to. 

Jean Kittson: So Amanda, when Neil was talking about creating memories, do you think that translates into other businesses as well? Or even socially? I suppose, if we all thought that every interaction, we were creating some sort of memory, maybe we would get more pleasure ourselves from life and give other people more pleasure.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Well, that's one of the internal motivators for our age group is the fact that we're connecting socially with other people for those memories, for the feel good in ourself. If that's about creating memories for others, maybe having memories for ourselves as well. That's driving us more at this age group. It's about memories and it's about pleasure and enjoyment and having fun.

Neil Perry: And all those experience, kind of, industries are obviously doing the same thing, you know, whether that’s in the travel industry or events, airlines, you know, whatever it might be. That interaction that you have, you want people to get a lot of joy out of it.  

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you want them to remember. I want them to remember, ‘oh, that's right. Amanda said 10 years ago,’ you know, because we’re in the people business.

Neil Perry: Absolutely. And conversely, the fundamental thing that you have to get is job satisfaction. If you are already enjoying what you do, all the stuff we talk about with care, it's just not gonna come through. You know, all that has to be delivered with a genuine spirit of hospitality and that can't be done unless you are loving what you do and you're getting a lot of joy out of it.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Job satisfaction is engagement. That was my PhD area, that you love and like your work. So it's cognitive and emotional. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And that's where you're giving memories. Creating memories. You're making memories for yourself. 

Jean Kittson: And so do you ever say to people who have not enjoyed their work and they're now in their fifties, do you ever sort of suggest they may like to find something they like doing?

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Absolutely. Yes. If they've not enjoyed it, but they've worked for reasons that are external motivators like money, providing that kind of thing, they've now got an opportunity – especially with the perspective of, okay, we are now living to the end of our lives. What's gonna be important to you now, so that when you're on your deathbed, you can look back at the memories and go, I have got no regrets.

Neil Perry: You crystallise that very well, Amanda. When you're on your deathbed. 

Jean Kittson: Is there something you would've told your 50-year-old self, which you were 20 years ago? It's hard to believe, isn’t it? 

Neil Perry: I know it is. 

Jean Kittson: Is there anything that you would've told your 50-year-old self that you know now that you would've thought, I would've done that differently or anything?

Neil Perry: Look, you know, I've made a couple of mistakes in the past two years that I wish I hadn't, but experience told me that I shouldn't have done it, but I did. And it was partly, you know, just being drunk on the success of Margaret and vesting a lot in Double Bay that I probably shouldn't have done.

You know, I'm happy where I am now, so I always managed to fight my way out of these things. But yeah, look, I would probably just sit back and say, ‘hey, just run the numbers one more time and remember all the things that you said that you were never going to do.’ Because there were a whole lot of red flags on what I did.

And I’d never do a restaurant where it’s got da, da, da. Never do da, never do this, never do that. Did all of them because I really wanted it. And I think back then, I was 50 when I started, or a little bit younger, when I started building the Rockpool Bar and Grill part of our life, which was the business that I managed to sell for quite a bit of money and set myself up for life really.

But, I was very focused on not making those mistakes. So maybe my 50-year-old self should be telling my almost 70-year-old self – or my 67-year-old self when I made these decisions – stay by your code of conduct and don't get over enthusiastic. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, dry that lettuce. 

Neil Perry: Dry that lettuce. Exactly. So interestingly, I don't regret anything in my life, really. But I do think that when you are in a situation where you've lived as long and you've been in the industry for as long as I have been, and you've managed to have as much success, it's really very satisfying to look back and think about. And it was hard work, all the hard work that you put in, but, you know, all the rewards that you got from it. 

Jean Kittson: All the rewards that other people got too. Bringing training and mentoring and bringing up such a team. For someone who mainly works on their own, I just admire that so much and I feel that that must be one of your greatest legacies.

Not only educating us all about food and introducing us to wonderful recipes and experiences and memories, but just what you've contributed to the following generations. 

Neil Perry: Well, I've got to, I've worked with an enormous amount of people. I mean I don't even know how I could figure it out, but it'd be, I don’t know, 50,000 people over my career probably. 

Jean Kittson: Wow. That's amazing. Congratulations. Well, Amanda, like you were saying before, so we don't have regrets on our death bed – I'm gonna have quite a few. Don't you worry about that. And, I may be seeking your advice on how to manage those regrets. But, most of us will have regrets and part of the resilience of getting older is how to manage, you know, mistakes we've made and how to sort of, I suppose, work out in our minds why that might have happened and forgive ourselves or move on. And do you find that that's a very important part of getting older and keeping on going? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Well, yes. Good that you mentioned resilience because that, in the research, is about self-regulation. So, managing ourselves and social competency. So, being able to manage dealing with other people and communication, relationships, conflict resolution.

So yeah, resilience is the key factor to prevent burnout, to help with engagement. It's very important, and to avoid regrets. Yeah. Your example, Neil is exactly one of those that you manage yourself better now and we learned through failure. I mean, you can't avoid failure if you’re going to keep growing in your life and stay at the top of your game, failure's just part of it. 

Neil Perry: Oh, you've gotta embrace failure. Yeah. I mean, you know, you learn 10 times more from failure than it is from success. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. 

Neil Perry: So yeah, that's failing and then not being afraid to reengage, that's really important. Because some people fail and it causes them to overthink a lot and it causes them to not take the opportunities that are in front of them. So, it's really making sure that you look at the next opportunity and how do I make sure that those things aren't engaged in the thing going forward. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Exactly. 

Jean Kittson: Well, I think that is a really great way to end this conversation about continuing to fail is not a failure. Like continuing to fail is a good thing because you're taking risks and you're growing. And you have the confidence to not be damaged by it.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: As Neil says, you can't avoid failure. If you fail to continue to be at the top of your game, there's a failure. But if you’re going to stay at the top of your game, you're gonna have to face failure. And that's a growth mindset. And welcome it because you're learning. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you're still learning as you're getting older. How fabulous. 

Jean Kittson: How fabulous. 

Neil Perry: It's really about the amount of happiness that you have. So, there's no, no point in living an extra 10 years if you're not happy.

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Neil Perry: So that's the key to life is like get to the end and be happy with where you've been, what you've done, and where you are. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Agree. 

Jean Kittson: I agree too. That's fabulous. Thank you so much. Thank you, Neil. Thank you, Amanda. 

Thanks to our guests, Neil Perry and Dr Amanda Ferguson. You've been listening to Better with Age, season seven of DARE: The Time of Your Life, formally Life's Booming. Please leave a review and share this show with someone you know and visit seniors.com.au/podcast for more episodes. May you dare to live your best life. I'm Jean Kittson. Thank you.

 

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