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Keeping yourself fit and healthy and in shape is vital for life’s long game. And no-one understands that more than celebrated chef Neil Perry, who chats with organisational psychologist Dr Amanda Ferguson about what it takes to survive the demanding restaurant game for more than 40 years.

About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA.

Join Jean Kittson for the seventh season of DARE: The time of your life (formerly Life’s Booming), called Better With Age. 

Too often ageing is painted as decline. In reality, Australians are living longer, healthier lives and reshaping what “older” looks like. This series flips the script and shows how ageing is not a dirty word but rather a time to be embraced, featuring interviews with extraordinary over 50s refusing to slip quietly into the background, who instead continue to survive and thrive in the long game of life.

Neil Perry is Australia’s most decorated chef. The culinary genius behind Rockpool and winner of the 2024 World’s 50 Best Icon Award, Neil has spent 40 years at the very top of his craft, including his latest venture, the Margaret Family Group. Staying there hasn’t been accidental. It takes relentless passion, resilience, and an unwavering belief that what you put on the plate – and into your body – genuinely matters.

Dr Amanda Ferguson is a registered psychologist, organisational psychologist, author and speaker, whose three-decade career has been devoted to helping people find meaning, motivation and wellbeing in work, life and relationships.

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Watch DARE: The Time of Your Life on YouTube   

Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Apple Podcasts 

Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Spotify 

For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency

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TRANSCRIPT:​

Jean Kittson: DARE the time of your life, formerly Life's Booming, is brought to you by Australian Seniors in partnership with RSPCA. For more episodes of this and our Life's Booming series, visit seniors.com.au/podcast. 

Hi, I'm Jean Kittson. Welcome to the latest season, Better with Age, where we are celebrating Australians who are living, working, and ageing on their own terms. No ageing stereotypes for them. 

This week's episode is called Playing the Long Game, and no one exemplifies what that means more than our first guest, Neil Perry. With a career spanning more than four decades, he is one of our most influential chefs. Indeed, he's the only Australian to receive the prestigious World's 50 Best Restaurants Icon Award, the food oscars. The culinary genius behind Rockpool, and his latest venture, the Margaret Family Group, Neil has survived the often brutal hospitality world without disappearing or burning out.

And joining him is Dr Amanda Ferguson, registered psychologist, organisational psychologist, author, and speaker whose career has been devoted to helping people find meaning, motivation, and wellbeing in work, life and relationships. Neil and Amanda, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. 

Neil Perry: Thanks, Jean. Good to be here.

Jean Kittson: Neil, the restaurant business is often very brutal, long hours, highly competitive, stressful, fickle market, lots of pressures, all that, not that I want you to feel any pressure from me about this, but you've not only survived, but you've thrived for over 40 years.

So, what do you think is the key ingredient or the secret ingredient to your longevity? 

Neil Perry: Well, I think just the enthusiasm of which I approach every day because, I mean, you know, it is an old cliche, but they say if you find a job you love doing, you'll never work a day in your life.

And I am lucky enough to have found, you know, something that's intrinsic in lifestyle. So I kind of dream about food. I eat food, I wake up, I work in it. You know, my whole focus on a daily basis is about my restaurants, my staff and how we grow and continually evolve. So, I've kind of spent the last 51 years in the industry continually evolving rather than, you know, sort of deciding, oh my God, I've gotta change what I'm doing.

I'm just day by day trying to do better than I did the day before. And that's a kind of mantra that we roll into the entire team so that they're always thinking about getting better and more focused and getting the best out of themselves and growing as people, which is really important.

So, I think that's helped me keep an edge to continually keep thinking that. You know, I've got a role in the industry and I wanna keep moving forward. And, you know, tomorrow is another day and it's another day that I get an opportunity to be better than I was the day before. 

Jean Kittson: And you translate that to your teams by the sound of it, that is important.

Neil Perry: Until I was 25, I was working front of house and managing restaurants and running restaurants, which has kind of helped me become a restaurateur rather than just a chef. And then at 25 transitioned into the kitchen and it was really obvious to me that there tended to be a kind of ‘us and them’ culture in the restaurant business.

And we see with a lot of things at the moment on chefs and the way they treat people and they have treated people, and particularly in Europe, that it can be a very hard place to be. But, I made a very conscious decision to try and make it, you know – more about the way my personality is anyway – but to make it a place where it was really, everyone working together as one team, no front and back of house. It was, you know, really everyone coming together to make sure that the most important person in the room was the customer – and that we were supporting each other. So through the care philosophy, which, you know, is a really simple word, but it embodies itself in so many things that we do.

So, you know, we care about our incredible suppliers. They're the lifeblood of our restaurant. Our amazing farmers and fishermen and, you know, incredible vignerons and so forth. And then it's really about caring about the place in which we work, because I really love to have a restaurant that's as beautiful 10 or 15 years down the track as it is the day that it opens. More patina, of course, but like a great pair of shoes – loved and comfortable – and that's really important to me. 

And then core to, I guess, the whole thing is we gotta care about each other. So we try to make sure that, you know, we're checking in. Are you okay? You know, are you doing your mise en place or can I help you set up the restaurant?

And make sure that if we think somebody's coming in and they've got issues at home or with relationships, or even with a relationship within the restaurant, that we're trying to solve that and make sure that we can get to the point where we're all pulling in the same direction.

And then for us, community's key. So caring about our community. We've always been involved in fundraisers and trying to help people that are less fortunate than us. We're in a very privileged position to be able to do that as restaurateurs and chefs. 

And then care about the environment because if we don't have clean air and clean water and clean earth, we can't get that amazing produce. It's my role to make them better chefs, better waiters, better sommeliers, better managers. But I like to make them better people.

I always say at every large staff gathering, probably most of them under 30, that, you know, my generation kind of sucked the marrow out of the world, and it's up to them to make sure that the next generation of leaders are held to account.

So, I do try to get them to think about community, you know, sustainability and politics – and their role in it. And that makes them hopefully, you know, more rounded people. 

Jean Kittson: Well, it sounds to me that longevity we're talking about and that success, so it would go the other way too. Do you get a lot of support from them? Because you give them so much care and attention and your expertise and you're bringing them up. And do they support you when there's challenges as well? 

Neil Perry: Yeah, of course. I mean, I always say that I'm kind of like a vampire. So, you know, I run this amazing team of people with huge amounts of energy and youth and they need to be guided and sort of, you know, given opportunities in life.

But in return, I get so much energy and so much joy from them that that actually keeps me young. I look through my eyes and I actually think that I'm their age, you know? 

Jean Kittson: And Amanda, in your work, in different industries, do you see this teamwork as part of an essential ingredient as well in different industries? What helps your clients? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Every industry is different in terms of how much teamwork you're gonna have and gonna need.

Certainly in Neil's area, you can see the necessity of people there physically, and yet we've got a lot of remote working now and a lot of organisations have pivoted that way. But I think, Neil, you were talking beautifully about a whole lot of organisational psychology concepts like growth mindset; that the growth factor of helping these younger people moving forward and growing.

And we know that the growth mindset is important for all ages and you know, fundamental to performance anyway, but then to ageing performance, this engagement Neil's talking about, what makes him engaged and motivated internally. That's what we know, as we get older, matters even more than when we're younger.

So a lot of your younger staff, they're really motivated by extrinsic, which is external reward, which is building their careers and gaining money and being able to put down any roots that they can do at the time of their lives. And yet, these internal motivations are what are driving us as we age increasingly, which is about contributing, which is the influence you're having, the legacy you're creating. And that clearly motivates you as well with the care concept there, which is a wonderful driving factor. 

Jean Kittson: Do you think that keeps people more engaged with the work they do and able to meet challenges better? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Well, as long as you shift with your motivation. So we change across the lifespan, and Ericsson talked about the tasks of different ages and stages of life. Those travel with us during, staying at the top of our game. And so as long as we keep negotiating them, which is where our motivation's gonna change. So now, you know in our 60's, the main motivation there for the life stage is about legacy, and then it's gonna become wisdom, and moving into the wisdom part that we're negotiating with.

So it's like in any generation pivoting, continuing to pivot even in older age. And you know, not giving up, you know, that there is a choice there that people make and have to be conscious of. Ericsson said at 63, it's a real challenge of; are you gonna regenerate or are you going to degenerate?

Jean Kittson: Right.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes. 

Neil Perry: I think it's really important for people to recognise that a lot of things that happen to them are within their control. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Mm-hmm. 

Neil Perry: So for me, you know, I'll be 70 next year, so in 10 years I'm 80. 

So, you get a choice of thinking, well, you know, I've got 11, hopefully, very mobile years ahead of me. Because there's no guarantee physically, particularly when you've worked as many hours as I have and worn out most of the joints in your body, that you're going to be fabulously mobile. 

But it's important for me now, like, as we all know with longevity, like muscle mass is very important. So it's important for me to do enough exercise and it's really important for me to also think about balance and also flexibility.

The three things that probably give you the most opportunity to get into your 80s and live the sort of life you'd still love to lead. And I know people who I always say are very inspirational to me who are like that hitting their eighties and, you know, still going out and playing golf and going on holidays and still working and doing things and I think that'll always be a very important part of my life.

I couldn't imagine retiring. I could imagine taking it a little bit easier, you know, maybe not working every weekend, but I couldn't imagine not having the motivation mentally to come in and set parameters and talk to the chefs and speak to the wonderful fishermen and the farmers and the people that are the most important people in my life.

So I just think for me, it's a matter of kind of putting the energy into those things that will give me the kind of outcome that I want. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And that's your internal motivation. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. There's a very traditional, you know, big pharma way of thinking about medicine and the body.

And we now know that there's a very well documented and proven, you know, functional way of looking at it. We know diet's really important, so I eat really well. I mean, one of the things that's great for me is I don't eat really any processed food at all, probably except for bacon, which I love.

Jean Kittson: You said processed. That's not processed. It's just dry. 

Neil Perry: Not really. It's like when I make our hamburgers, people say, ‘oh yeah, you eat a hamburger.’ Yeah, it's like freshly ground beef. That's what it is. It's got properly made sauces and it's got a bun, you know, so it's actually pretty good for you. I'm not sure about the other processed ones but, you know, I do think if you eat a lot of whole food, it's really important.

I mean, my probably one sin in my life is I love red wine. So, I'm thinking a lot about, you know, how much I drink and maybe I should cut back. But every time I think about that it's just, you know.

Jean Kittson: Too hard!

Neil Perry: I think is it worth an extra couple of years? Maybe not. 

Jean Kittson: No, that's right. Benefit. 

Neil Perry: You gotta get the balance.

Jean Kittson: Risk benefit. Risk benefit. Amanda, do you see that people with longevity in their chosen careers, do you see that as a psychological important part of them surviving, you know, playing the long game? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Oh, absolutely. And look, most of those people will either have really pivoted in their careers away from say, line management to supervising or training in a corporate kind of job. Or if you're lucky enough, I think as both Neil and I are, to actually love what you do and live to work because we get so much like a vampire back from the…

Jean Kittson: Yes. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: The beautiful energy of what we give out and what comes back.

And that's engagement, that's called employee or work engagement, where we love and like our work. So clearly the cognition side that Neil loves, you know, the way he thinks about all his work as well as emotionally, what he's gaining and giving, and giving out cognitively – so everyone has a different long game.

You know, I'll often say to people who have worked to live; ‘don't just retire, retire to something.’ And that's when they may sort of, you know, think of buying another business that is actually non-corporate, where they can have their staff if they're similarly engaged or creative outlets where they can really be more creative in the workplace or in hobbies or pursuits or golf.

So, you know, the long game may be pivoting to being the brilliant golfer in your peer group. 

Jean Kittson: Right. Using your energy in your, yeah, well that sounds pretty good. but use that drive…

Neil Perry: Frustrating game though. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. Frustrating game. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Well, yes, use the pivoting drives because as we age, the reason that we are motivated changes. 

So it's typically becoming, as we are entering post 50s, we're moving from – and certainly from late forties – we're moving from being really motivated by caring for others to wanting to build a legacy. 

And so if you feel your legacy is in the community, say, of having the surf club managed really that legacy may matter. And even having a plaque for yourself or you might become an elder to the local surf group.

So, it's the pivoting and noticing and negotiating the lifespan changes that you have to go through in order to keep this motivation, engagement, growth mindset and risk failure – and have fun along the way. I mean, all those basic performance motivations and factors, they all still apply in older age.

We draw on that breadth of knowledge and survive and thrive because of that, you know, it doesn't matter that the cognitive decline is happening. If you are pivoting, if you're compensating with all of that knowledge and ability and, you know, even muscle memory that you would have, definitely for your work.

Jean Kittson: I think they call it crystallised experience. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes. 

Jean Kittson: Have you heard that expression? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes.  

Jean Kittson: Yes. So that's very valuable to workplaces. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Absolutely. 

Jean Kittson: I know you've been talking about legacy and I would think that Neil's already got an enormous legacy. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Exactly. 

Jean Kittson: And you could, you know, leave the business tomorrow and you'd still be as renowned and as admired and respected. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Except the care of the younger people. 

Neil Perry: Yeah, absolutely. Getting young people to care. I mean, it starts really with kind of, you know, you get young 16, 17-year-old people coming and working with us. 

I mean, we're very lucky through COVID that my daughters were in year 9 and 11. And when we came out of COVID and staff was very difficult, we'd already been doing, sort of, takeaway and burgers and everything we possibly could to survive. 

And one of the things that all these young kids loved, they loved coming and working for us because they're very social. And all of a sudden, for four months of their life, they were like, you guys cannot be together.

So, for them to come and work and putting little bits of sources in containers and doing all that stuff. But to see them sit around a table, eight of them, and laughing and, you know, engaging and being social was just so wonderful because I know, with my girls, you could really sense that they were struggling and they really missed that. 

So they then came on to be, you know, the kids who worked in our restaurants, all of their friends, and they were anywhere from 15 through to 17.

And we've put many of them through university. And so, they're a really important part of what Margaret is, and that makes it an incredible family restaurant beside the fact that my three daughters and wife worked there as well. 

So what was really wonderful was for their parents to come in and have dinner and just say, ‘thank you, you've really taught our daughters what it is to, or our son, what it is to strive,’ you know, to try to be the best you possibly can. And I just thought it was a really wonderful impact to have on young people.

And then other times where we get young kids in the kitchen, 16, 17, and they're, you know, used to eating processed food and cans of drink and, you know, all the sorts of stuff that I dislike immensely. We don't force them, but we try to make them appreciate real food and whole food.

And, you know, every day we have a family meal when we're open and it's not leftovers, it's a planned meal. We buy food in and our kids, you know, get in pairs and they get to prepare a family meal. We have some fantastic… 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Wow.

Neil Perry: dinners because we have kids from Korea and Indonesia and Singapore and China, Greece and Spain and Italy. And so we just get these amazing, very traditional meals cooked with real food. 

My motivation is to move the goals for those kids and to show them not just restaurant food, but what good eating is, to value and how to enjoy because, you know, part of their training is really tasting everything that we make and making sure that everything's perfectly balanced.

But I want them to understand what, you know, eating and enjoying life is really all about because we have to eat to survive. So it's really wonderful. We can get great joy out of that as well. You know, it's the icing on the cake.

Jean Kittson: That is a wonderful legacy, but also then they will learn and pass it on. I mean, do you see your role as a chef and a restaurateur, in the broader community, as education as well about food?

Neil Perry: Yeah. Oh, very much so. And that's been like, I think I've got 11 cookbooks that I've put out since 1994 was the first one. 

Jean Kittson: And your recipes are fantastic, by the way.

Neil Perry: Yeah. I wrote for Good Weekend for, you know, 15 years. Nearly every book is the same, in essence, because it all starts out with good cooking is good shopping. So, you know, if you buy beautiful produce, you'll end up, and that doesn't mean spending a fortune, it means cooking with a season, and often that'll be the cheapest way to buy fruit, vegetables, whatever it might be. 

And, you know, eating fresh food. You know, if you prepare fresh food or eat lovely fresh food when you go out, again you know, from a lifestyle point of view, it's just so much easier to process, so much better for you.

You know, I really learned how to wash, dry and dress a salad properly at Stephanie's. And that's been very fundamental to all the things that I've done through my career and like people come to my place, they go, ‘oh my God, the salad's amazing.’ Well, it's just, you know, really well washed, dried and dressed and seasoned lettuce. I hope to impart on the next generation is just the fundamentals of doing stuff properly. 

Jean Kittson: Properly. I'm going to make sure I dry my lettuce properly now. 

Neil Perry: You must have a salad dry. You must dry your lettuce properly.

Jean Kittson: Yes. It's pretty old. My salad dry. But to think that even three months with an elder in your business, like Stephanie, had such a big impact, shows what an elder and that experience has… 

Neil Perry: Well, she was older, but she wasn't that much older than…

 Jean Kittson: Oh I'm sorry. 

Neil Perry: Steph must be like, she would probably hate it if I said it, but, you know, approaching 80 or in her eighties. 

Jean Kittson: Oh, not that much older… 

Neil Perry: But back then she was probably in her early forties or whatever, and I was 26.

I guess the reason it was so impactful for me is that because I'd run restaurants and managed restaurants and my father kind of taught me pretty much everything about food. Because he was a butcher, you know, mad keen angler. So we went fishing all the time on our holidays and he came from the country, so we were lucky enough to have a small garden and grew vegetables.

So he taught me all about the seasons. But when I did my year of working with a whole lot of great chefs in Australia, I was 26, I'd run restaurants, you know, I'd been buying the wine, you know, doing lots of wine tastings, buying fish for the seafood restaurant I worked for, running the books, doing everything.

So as soon as I jumped into that environment of working with chefs, I was like a 26-year-old, highly motivated, knew the business really well, so it really focuses you.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: You've adapted and you've pivoted with the times, like you said with COVID and, you know, that's where you regenerate all the time. 

Neil Perry: Yeah, well, I have a nasty habit of opening restaurants in like – if I'm about to open a restaurant, anyone in the stock market should look at it and go like, ‘okay, where's my investment opportunity or divestment?’

Because when I opened Rockpool in– I started building in 1988. I opened it in the middle of the recession. We had to have, in 89, we had 18% interest rates. We'd borrowed 1.8 million, you know, Trish and I had to pay 360,000 in interest. I mean, made $0 for working 18 hours a day, six days a week for the first year.

And we were just lucky that it all of a sudden hit the spot. So we were full. And I suppose the positive was unemployment was about 10%. So, it was easy to get staff. And then when I was opening Rockpool Bar and Grill in Sydney and Spice Temple, you know, we spent $11 million on that project and the GFC came along.

And then the day that I was about to open Margaret in June, 2021, Gladys got on the TV and said, ‘okay, the Eastern Suburbs is shutting down.’ And then the next day she went, ‘the whole of Sydney's shutting down.’ And about a week and a half into that, feeling very sorry for myself, and this is the first time I'd owned a restaurant, 100%, you know, my own. I'd had partners before that since ‘83 all the way through.

And I just remember that feeling of like, hang on. You just cannot sit here and feel sorry for yourself anymore. You've got staff to worry about, you've gotta get yourself back into action. So it was like, you know, zoom calls, getting all the staff, getting all the management team, making sure that everybody who worked for us was having the opportunity to engage in any government relief that they possibly could through the job keeper and workforce scenarios with state and federal. And importantly recognising what we could pivot to and how we can engage with the community.

And it was incredible. We worked our butts off for four months. I made absolutely $0, but I didn't lose anything. And that was with a whack of government assistance. I'd been lucky enough to do some trials and have some corporate sellouts before they shut us down, before we were supposed to officially open.

And it was an extraordinary time, but it meant that those 50 people that we were all working together every day, albeit not running the restaurant, but we were living in the restaurant. We were moving through the kitchen. We were cooking, we were doing all this stuff. And then we got to retrain again, and then we opened. And it's the best restaurant opening I've ever done. So we were under restrictions, we couldn't do as many people, but it was just extraordinary. And, to this day, like in the entire, probably open 27 restaurants in my life. So, that was just, you know, the most extraordinary opening ever because we had the time to do it properly.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: So, that's a beautiful vignette I think of self-compassion, which is that hang on, you know, you can't feel sorry for your self courage. And the wisdom that, you know, I’ve done it before, pivoted before with major world crises. Do it again. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you did it. 

Jean Kittson: Do you find that as a common experience for people who can…

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yes. 

Jean Kittson: Have longevity? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Absolutely. Because again, we've got the wisdom. We may not have as much cognitive capacity. We've got the wisdom.

If you can find the courage, you know, and a lot of elderly people don't have that. They lose it because of ageism around us. It's having a big effect, the loss of self-esteem, but we have more ability to self-regulate, the research shows, generally, most of us. 

And so, you regulated yourself, which is very much about resilience and self-management and, you know, the wisdom that you drew on. And so it's leaning into the database that we really have inside ourselves, and the knowledge that isn't just about conscious ability. It's about, okay, I've been there before.

Obviously you must have cast back to oh, we did the GFC, we did the other challenges. This is just another one. And age gives us that perspective that, okay, we are looking now from here to death, whereas people earlier– sorry younger than us are looking from how long I've been alive to where I am now. So that perspective…

Jean Kittson: Right.

Neil Perry: There is an end to this game. Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, you're right. I mean, I probably, it's only about five years, so probably since I was 64 or 65, I just started, you know, having these odd moments not of, you know, not of depression or, you know, dark thoughts.

I've only got so long to achieve what I want to achieve. You know, so before,  you're right, you were kind of looking forward, just going like, oh, there's no end game to this. Let's just keep forging forward. It's certainly a life perspective change that happens to you.

Jean Kittson: So do you think the long game turns into the shorter game maybe?

Neil Perry: Yeah. Gotta get this done game. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Or have fun while we can game!

Jean Kittson: Or how do I ensure, really. When people– I'm just a little bit confused 'cause there's self-compassion. But what Neil mentioned kept him going was not self pity. So, what’s the difference?

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Self-compassion is completely different. And this is where we are finding a lot of, you know, high performing musicians and elite athletes cringe at the idea that they should take on self-compassion. No, it's about beating yourself up to get to move forward.

Yeah. And then when you really counsel them that it's about courage. It's about wisdom that you're going to keep tearing your muscles if you keep pushing forward when you are actually having a weak day. Take some wisdom there and just back off a bit on the training. It's not, you know, feeling sorry for yourself.

You know, a lot of people think, oh, self-compassion is self-soothing and positive talk. And if you dig deeper into the current research, it really is about this courage mindset, this wisdom mindset, even at younger ages. And once these younger people wrap their mind around it, and they take it on, they perform better. 

Look at Roger Federer. You know, look how he had to develop this self-compassion of courage and wisdom to learn how to play the ball. You know, he didn't retire till 41, but he was burning out and he was focused on performance and any failure, he was visibly, you know, having tantrums. He had to pivot his mindset to this courage, determination, grit, but also this mental resilience factor where it's not emotional now.

And that's what you would've done too. You would've gone into the mindset that was needed, which is a growth mindset. It's like, how do we pivot? How do we learn? And Federer is a great public example, as are you, of course. 

Jean Kittson: When people lose their confidence as they get older because they are undermined, there is ageism, they probably feel that they are not achieving what they used to achieve on certain levels. Maybe it's, you know, they lose their confidence because of the way they talk to themselves, but also the way, external factors, some people are retrenched. How do people– how have you found that people overcome that lack of confidence? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: So many different ways, Jean. You know, again, it's play to your strengths. I've counseled people who've been retrenched seven times, you know, it's like, you know, sick of that now the corporate burn and churn wheel, you know, is it time to pivot into something different if you're that jaded? And others are like no, I'm gonna start my own business.

I've got a podcast on how it's an internal external conundrum – confidence. It's what you're thinking, so yes, the mindset, but it's also what you're doing to keep your confidence because the research shows that most of us know we're losing cognitive capacity.

And if you’re then pivoting, accordingly, rather than feeling unconfident about that, that's just a part of life. Where’s all the rest of your confidence? Because we do know that if you do compensate with all the other confidence areas that we've got in wisdom, knowledge, expertise, experience, you know, the perspective of we’re looking towards the end of life now and that gives us a fantastic perspective that we need in our phase of life.

Jean Kittson: Yes, and to pass on to others. Yeah. When you say we are losing cognitive capacity. Is it capacity or function? What ability? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: It’s capacity. Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: Capacity. That's a scary thing because I think, oh, you mean we can't think as clearly, but I feel like I can make better decisions now than I ever could. So what is that word? Cognitive.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Information processing. It's very much up-skilling, re-skilling. We know that older people typically don't want to retrain. They don't want to relearn new things unless you can pivot them to what motivates them. Now, you are motivated about passing on and standards and excellence and your influence continuing.

And so you've probably, you know, you are relearning as you go, what's happening with the economy, so that I can continue to be confident and have my capacity working for me. So, it's an unconscious thing we are doing, really, that we're compensating from capacity, which is about information processing, about retraining to, well, I'm willing to retrain. I'm willing to understand what's happening for the farmers, for the economy, for the fuel supply, for what organisational psychology calls VUCA times that we're in which is volatile, uncertain, challenging, ambiguous.

You know, I'm relearning about the state of the world because my motivation is helping people of course. And so, if I wasn't motivated by that, I wouldn't use my cognitive ability that I do still have left for that. So, it's the combination of so many different factors at play as we age. 

Neil Perry: So Amanda, is that in speed of processing or is that just capacity of processing?

Dr Amanda Ferguson: It's in speed. We don't want to work an 80 hour week anymore. So, that lack of cognitive ability that the twenties has – when we're in our twenties – we happily do an 80 hour week. We're just not interested and it's harder.

The labour for that cognitively is harder because of our loss of capacity. And so, we have to keep pivoting. We have to keep drawing on the growing skillset that we do have, which is more about the wisdom and knowledge base that is so broad that we don't even realise what we're using often. And that continues to grow in middle age.

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Into older age, and the research shows we can perform as well as people in their twenties. 

Neil Perry: By using that capacity of what we know as opposed to what they don't know. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: That's right. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you're not even conscious a lot of the times what you're drawing on.

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: That body of research is so robust. There's this concept that's totally misconstrued that we are less able as we get older. 

Jean Kittson: I think that whole cognitive decline is so loaded. I really, find... 

Neil Perry: Well, we live in the age of Alzheimer's and dementia and, I mean, you know… 

Jean Kittson: Yes, of course. 

Neil Perry: I just don't ever remember growing up, when I was younger, and ever hearing that term.

And of course now it's like ADHD and everything that's happening with kids now, and everyone on the spectrum – and that just was not happening when I was younger. I just don't ever remember it even in my forties. But now, in the last 20 years, everything seems to be so focused on all of the various mindsets that can happen to a person.

Jean Kittson: I just feel that the restaurant industry has retained so much of its human content. 

Neil Perry: Yeah, absolutely. 

Jean Kittson: Humanity, eating together with your team. And the care of food and the environment, it all goes hand in hand. So you are very lucky to be part of…

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: That sector, rather. 

Neil Perry: Well, you know, somebody said to me the other day, ‘oh, when do you think you'll start using Tesla robots?’ And I said, ‘well, how about never?’ 

Our main focus is to create great memories, right? I tell everybody, ‘yeah, sure we're in the restaurant business,’ but our main focus is to create great memories. And that's what drives our business – word of mouth. People say, ‘oh my God, I have the best time at Margaret.’

And it was interesting because in 2002, I got a phone call from Scott Bowles, who is still doing Short Black, which is the gossip column in the Sydney Morning Herald for food. And he said a magazine in London, they asked 300 people their five favorite restaurant experiences in the world. And Rockpool finished fourth. 

And I thought, wow, that's incredible. And I spent seven years on that list. But, I came back to my team and I said, ‘see, we're in Sydney and most of these people would not have been to Sydney, so we must have got a lot of hits on the ones that did.’ So, that's living proof that great memories are created in this restaurant. 

By having you feel like this is your second home, you know, like our regulars are so important and anybody who's a first time visitor is a great opportunity to create a regular. That's how we look at it. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. 

Neil Perry: And we want people to feel like this is their second home.

They're so comfortable here. You know, we know what they drink. We know what they like. We know the interactions and conversations and we want people to just think, oh, I've just gotta get back to Margaret, because I not only love the food, but I just love this whole experience of feeling like I'm part of the family.

I don't think you'll ever be able to AI replace that. And I hope I'm well dead and buried if it ever happens, because it would break my heart if that happened. 

Jean Kittson: If we all had to do everything online and then, well, even the QR code doesn't code, doesn't…

Neil Perry: Drive you crazy. 

Jean Kittson: In the pubs, now you order your food on the QR code. 

Neil Perry: I'm lucky enough to be well positioned to know people in restaurants that I want to go to or even around the world. So, I just never get online and make a booking. You know, it's always a phone call or a quick text or something, but all that stuff just takes the romance.

I mean, I almost, I thought I wanted to give up restaurants when I got to the stage where we had to bring the EFTPOS machine over and leave it. I just thought romance is dead. 

Okay. I got over that. We moved on, and the technology works really well for everybody now. And, I guess the one thing about the stuff of the ordering and what have you as more and more restaurants move towards – potentially not even that – but different opportunities with technology on table, you'll still have waiters and all that stuff, but, you know, you get the walk, the check ability and all. It's just making life more convenient. But again, a lot of this is at the expense of the romance of what it's all about. And, you don't have a great memory of a seamless experience. You have a great memory of an interactive experience.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: But you seem to be compensating for that with the care mentality. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. You have to. 

Jean Kittson: So Amanda, when Neil was talking about creating memories, do you think that translates into other businesses as well? Or even socially? I suppose, if we all thought that every interaction, we were creating some sort of memory, maybe we would get more pleasure ourselves from life and give other people more pleasure.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Well, that's one of the internal motivators for our age group is the fact that we're connecting socially with other people for those memories, for the feel good in ourself. If that's about creating memories for others, maybe having memories for ourselves as well. That's driving us more at this age group. It's about memories and it's about pleasure and enjoyment and having fun.

Neil Perry: And all those experience, kind of, industries are obviously doing the same thing, you know, whether that’s in the travel industry or events, airlines, you know, whatever it might be. That interaction that you have, you want people to get a lot of joy out of it.  

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you want them to remember. I want them to remember, ‘oh, that's right. Amanda said 10 years ago,’ you know, because we’re in the people business.

Neil Perry: Absolutely. And conversely, the fundamental thing that you have to get is job satisfaction. If you are already enjoying what you do, all the stuff we talk about with care, it's just not gonna come through. You know, all that has to be delivered with a genuine spirit of hospitality and that can't be done unless you are loving what you do and you're getting a lot of joy out of it.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Job satisfaction is engagement. That was my PhD area, that you love and like your work. So it's cognitive and emotional. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And that's where you're giving memories. Creating memories. You're making memories for yourself. 

Jean Kittson: And so do you ever say to people who have not enjoyed their work and they're now in their fifties, do you ever sort of suggest they may like to find something they like doing?

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Absolutely. Yes. If they've not enjoyed it, but they've worked for reasons that are external motivators like money, providing that kind of thing, they've now got an opportunity – especially with the perspective of, okay, we are now living to the end of our lives. What's gonna be important to you now, so that when you're on your deathbed, you can look back at the memories and go, I have got no regrets.

Neil Perry: You crystallise that very well, Amanda. When you're on your deathbed. 

Jean Kittson: Is there something you would've told your 50-year-old self, which you were 20 years ago? It's hard to believe, isn’t it? 

Neil Perry: I know it is. 

Jean Kittson: Is there anything that you would've told your 50-year-old self that you know now that you would've thought, I would've done that differently or anything?

Neil Perry: Look, you know, I've made a couple of mistakes in the past two years that I wish I hadn't, but experience told me that I shouldn't have done it, but I did. And it was partly, you know, just being drunk on the success of Margaret and vesting a lot in Double Bay that I probably shouldn't have done.

You know, I'm happy where I am now, so I always managed to fight my way out of these things. But yeah, look, I would probably just sit back and say, ‘hey, just run the numbers one more time and remember all the things that you said that you were never going to do.’ Because there were a whole lot of red flags on what I did.

And I’d never do a restaurant where it’s got da, da, da. Never do da, never do this, never do that. Did all of them because I really wanted it. And I think back then, I was 50 when I started, or a little bit younger, when I started building the Rockpool Bar and Grill part of our life, which was the business that I managed to sell for quite a bit of money and set myself up for life really.

But, I was very focused on not making those mistakes. So maybe my 50-year-old self should be telling my almost 70-year-old self – or my 67-year-old self when I made these decisions – stay by your code of conduct and don't get over enthusiastic. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, dry that lettuce. 

Neil Perry: Dry that lettuce. Exactly. So interestingly, I don't regret anything in my life, really. But I do think that when you are in a situation where you've lived as long and you've been in the industry for as long as I have been, and you've managed to have as much success, it's really very satisfying to look back and think about. And it was hard work, all the hard work that you put in, but, you know, all the rewards that you got from it. 

Jean Kittson: All the rewards that other people got too. Bringing training and mentoring and bringing up such a team. For someone who mainly works on their own, I just admire that so much and I feel that that must be one of your greatest legacies.

Not only educating us all about food and introducing us to wonderful recipes and experiences and memories, but just what you've contributed to the following generations. 

Neil Perry: Well, I've got to, I've worked with an enormous amount of people. I mean I don't even know how I could figure it out, but it'd be, I don’t know, 50,000 people over my career probably. 

Jean Kittson: Wow. That's amazing. Congratulations. Well, Amanda, like you were saying before, so we don't have regrets on our death bed – I'm gonna have quite a few. Don't you worry about that. And, I may be seeking your advice on how to manage those regrets. But, most of us will have regrets and part of the resilience of getting older is how to manage, you know, mistakes we've made and how to sort of, I suppose, work out in our minds why that might have happened and forgive ourselves or move on. And do you find that that's a very important part of getting older and keeping on going? 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Well, yes. Good that you mentioned resilience because that, in the research, is about self-regulation. So, managing ourselves and social competency. So, being able to manage dealing with other people and communication, relationships, conflict resolution.

So yeah, resilience is the key factor to prevent burnout, to help with engagement. It's very important, and to avoid regrets. Yeah. Your example, Neil is exactly one of those that you manage yourself better now and we learned through failure. I mean, you can't avoid failure if you’re going to keep growing in your life and stay at the top of your game, failure's just part of it. 

Neil Perry: Oh, you've gotta embrace failure. Yeah. I mean, you know, you learn 10 times more from failure than it is from success. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. 

Neil Perry: So yeah, that's failing and then not being afraid to reengage, that's really important. Because some people fail and it causes them to overthink a lot and it causes them to not take the opportunities that are in front of them. So, it's really making sure that you look at the next opportunity and how do I make sure that those things aren't engaged in the thing going forward. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Exactly. 

Jean Kittson: Well, I think that is a really great way to end this conversation about continuing to fail is not a failure. Like continuing to fail is a good thing because you're taking risks and you're growing. And you have the confidence to not be damaged by it.

Dr Amanda Ferguson: As Neil says, you can't avoid failure. If you fail to continue to be at the top of your game, there's a failure. But if you’re going to stay at the top of your game, you're gonna have to face failure. And that's a growth mindset. And welcome it because you're learning. 

Neil Perry: Yeah. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: And you're still learning as you're getting older. How fabulous. 

Jean Kittson: How fabulous. 

Neil Perry: It's really about the amount of happiness that you have. So, there's no, no point in living an extra 10 years if you're not happy.

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Neil Perry: So that's the key to life is like get to the end and be happy with where you've been, what you've done, and where you are. 

Dr Amanda Ferguson: Yeah. Agree. 

Jean Kittson: I agree too. That's fabulous. Thank you so much. Thank you, Neil. Thank you, Amanda. 

Thanks to our guests, Neil Perry and Dr Amanda Ferguson. You've been listening to Better with Age, season seven of DARE: The Time of Your Life, formally Life's Booming. Please leave a review and share this show with someone you know and visit seniors.com.au/podcast for more episodes. May you dare to live your best life. I'm Jean Kittson. Thank you.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Broadcaster and comedian Wendy Harmer and positive psychologist Dr Tim Sharp (aka ‘Dr Happy’) lift the veil on relationships and explore what it takes to nurture our most important connections with our partners, friends, and with ourselves.

About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA.

Join Jean Kittson for the seventh season of DARE: The time of your life (formerly Life’s Booming), called Better With Age. 

Too often ageing is painted as decline. In reality, Australians are living longer, healthier lives and reshaping what “older” looks like. This series flips the script and shows how ageing is not a dirty word but rather a time to be embraced, featuring interviews with extraordinary over 50s refusing to slip quietly into the background.

Wendy Harmer is a trailblazing comedian, broadcaster and journalist who has spent decades at the centre of Australian media and entertainment. Wendy first made her mark breaking new ground in Australia’s stand-up comedy scene before going on to become one of the country’s most recognisable media personalities and the author of bestselling books including Farewell My Ovaries.

Australia’s own Dr Happy, Dr Tim Sharp is a leading positive psychologist, bestselling author and founder of The Happiness Institute, Australia’s first organisation dedicated to enhancing happiness. With a career spanning academia, clinical psychology and public speaking, he’s become one of the most recognised voices on mental health and wellbeing.

Watch DARE: The Time of Your Life on YouTube

Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Apple Podcasts 

Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Spotify 

For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency

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TRANSCRIPT:

Jean Kittson: Welcome back to the podcast – DARE: The Time of Your Life, formerly Life’s Booming, brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA. 

I'm Jean Kittson, and this season is called Better with Age where we're flipping the script and showing how ageing is not a dirty word, but rather a time to be embraced.

Australians are living longer, healthier lives, and this season celebrates over 50s who are pushing the boundaries of what ageing looks like and feels like. In this episode, we are lifting the veil on relationships and exploring what it takes to nurture our most important connections with our partners, friends, and with ourselves.

We've probably all experienced how relationships shift over time. It's natural, of course, but it might surprise you to know just how important they are to our overall happiness and why it's vital to keep nurturing all relationships old and new. 

Which brings me to our first guest, Wendy Harmer, who knows about the importance of friendships and relationships and making new ones as we age.

I first met Wendy when we worked together back in the 80s, so we've been friends a long time. She's one of Australia's most beloved entertainers, a trailblazing, standup comedian, journalist, broadcaster, performer and bestselling author. Her books include the wonderful Pearly children's book series, as well as more adult titles like Farewell My Ovaries and her memoir Lies My Mirror Told Me. 

And joining Wendy is Dr Tim Sharp, otherwise known as Dr Happy. 

Tim is one of Australia's leading positive psychologists, and the founder and Chief Happiness officer at the Happiness Institute. Also a bestselling author, including The Happiness Handbook and his most recent Lost and Found.

Tim has dedicated his career to helping people live happier and more flourishing lives. Tim and Wendy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you both for coming in. 

Wendy Harmer: Great to be here, Jean. 

Jean Kittson: Oh, it's lovely to have you both here. 

Wendy Harmer: I've got to say, Tim, the first time I set eyes on this one, what a bombshell. She would've been on stage in a nurse's uniform at The Last Laugh Theatre Restaurant. It was, at the time, playing Nurse… 

Jean Kittson: Pam Sandwich…

Wendy Harmer:  …Pam Sandwich 

Jean Kittson: …in Let the Blood Run Free. 

Wendy Harmer: And this. All arms and legs and big boobs and blonde hair and falling over and doing all this amazing physical comedy. Everyone just adored Jean – and the men, we had to fight them off with a stick.

Jean Kittson: Yeah. Well those were the days, weren't they? This is what friendship's all about Tim, right? Thanks Wendy. That was lovely of you to say that. I mean, we've known each other for, well, since the early 80s. 

Wendy Harmer: It would have been about ‘83. 

Jean Kittson: And you were on stage doing stand up. See, I was doing [characters] and you were amazing, what you were talking about, women’s things – topics for women, about women and relationships. 

Wendy Harmer: That's right. Well, because when I first started out doing standup, it was really a bloke's domain and I thought, well, this, you know, this is ridiculous because, you know, women's lives are interesting too, and I mean, there's one thing that annoys me above anything else is saying women aren't funny. Like the idea, Tim, that you would say, ‘oh, the pet budgie can make me laugh. The dog can make me laugh, but a woman can't make me laugh.’ I mean, it really, I think it strikes to our humanity and I get really cross about that. So I've sort of been a bit of a campaigner with that, you know, rubber chook on a stick for many years.

But you know, the idea, I know you have this happiness. You talk a lot about happiness. How important is laughter? 

Dr Happy: Very important. Well, it's a general group, laughter, fun play, all of those things, which we too often underestimate and discount. Well, we sort of see them as a nice to have, but the research is pretty clear.

It's super important for a good life. It's hard to live a best life, a thriving life, a flourishing life without laughter, without fun, without play. I mean, there are many other things as well, and I'm sure we'll get to some of those other things, but a hundred percent it is a very important contributor to living a really, really good quality life.

Wendy Harmer: And it's interesting too, that our sense of humor. It's not universal at all. It's formed in that crucible of the family, or indeed your chosen family like Jean. You know, we chose each other as grownups to be a family. But that, you know, there is like the punny family, there's the practical joke family. There's, you know, each family has its own particular sense of humor, doesn't it? 

Jean Kittson: Well, I think friendship is a really important way of maintaining humour in your life because you get together with friends to have a laugh, don't you, often? 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: I mean, they're complex relationships, friendships. I mean, you've had friendships for a long time, Wendy, long-term friends. 

Wendy Harmer: I still have a friend who was at my 70th birthday a couple of months ago, whom I met on the school bus when I was 13 years old. So I – Gary. So I think that's pretty cool. He's the friend that I've had the longest, but you know, Jean and I have very similar trajectories in this way.

We both were sort of country girls, and then we went to Melbourne and then we moved to Sydney. And that is a big dislocator, isn't it, of friendships. It's when you, you know, and we both moved to Sydney about the same time, so we left this huge coterie of friends to move to Sydney with our husbands, and then we both had kids, which is isolating as well…

Jean Kittson: …definitely, it changes everything, doesn't it… 

Wendy Harmer: … you know, the nature of a friendship just changes so much over the years. 

Jean Kittson: But in terms of friendship and happiness, I mean, is friendship a really important element? You are talking about laughing, which it is, but I know when I get together with friends, we laugh a lot. But friendship is a really important part of, you know, happiness. 

Dr Happy: Yeah. Well, look, I've been, well, I probably should say I started out my career specialising in unhappiness. I was a clinical psychologist to begin with and an academic. So I was studying sort of stress, depression, and misery before I even discovered happiness.

But I have been studying, well, what we technically call positive psychology for several decades now. And if I had to sum up everything I've learned from thousands of research articles, hundreds of books, many, many conferences about, you know, what are the most important contributors to, well not just happiness, but wellbeing more generally, longevity, physical health, et cetera, it would certainly be positive relationships. 

In fact, one of the – so Christopher Peterson was one of the leaders, one of the grandfathers of positive psychology, and he dedicated his life to studying, thriving and flourishing. And he was once asked, what have you learned in, you know, 50 years as a professor? And he said, I can sum it up in three words. He said, other people matter. 

Wendy Harmer: Wow. That is correct. 

Dr Happy: So yeah, it's vitally important, almost certainly the most important contributor and the most important thing we can do is prioritise fostering and developing good quality relationships. 

Wendy Harmer: Well, you do hear that, don't you? That people ask on their deathbed, you know, what's your regret? And it's often that I didn't spend enough time with friends or family. 

You have some amazing relationships, Jean, and it's funny when you have a friend and you get to know that – and Angela, she's not a friend of mine, but I know her to be your best friend and that your friendship has been amazing over the years. How long have you known Angela? 

Jean Kittson: Well, I've known Angela for, since we were both teachers sent to the wilderness to teach first year out teachers. So probably since we were about 21, so 50 years. But she's a long distance friend, so I would speak to this friend regularly on the phone, and we speak all the time whenever we like on the phone, but I would only see Ange maybe once or twice a year, which is another thing about friendship.

I know that our friendship endures because we speak regularly and we are in touch with each other's lives. Then I have friends who live a few streets away who I don't see for months, but I don't ring because they're only a few streets away and I lose contact – I mean, we often lose contact with friends.

So, how do you manage that sort of – have you lost contact with any friends? You've got a huge cohort of friends. 

Wendy Harmer: Oh, well, I've lost, you know, I've lost contact with lots and lots of friends. I've only once lost contact with someone on purpose. I've done the– and that was after I spent time with this friend, and I realised that every time I walked away from spending time with this friend, I felt worse about myself.

There was something just subtle in the relationship that just made me feel that I wasn't smart enough or I was like overweight or I wasn't achieving or whatever. 

Richard Stubbs, you know, our comedian friend, he would say, Wendy, he said, ‘sometimes you go back to that well, where it's quite clearly the person doesn't wanna be friends with you, and you are like, you won't take no for an answer.’

So I'm probably the opposite. I'm probably that needy person who wants, who needs you to be my friend, maybe. 

Jean Kittson: Well, I think we all need friends and we don't like it when we lose contact. And then you get embarrassed because it's been so long since you called. This is my situation that I'm too scared to ring up in case they just won't pick up and then I know I'm dropped. 

How do you mend broken friendships if– because they can be very painful, that sort of grief of losing someone just because of neglect, really not deliberately ghosting them or anything. Because friendships need to be nurtured, need to be fed in a way, need to be maintained. 

Wendy Harmer: [Like this plant..] Oh, that's plastic. That's plastic! I was going to say like this house plant!

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Dr Happy: Look, it's, well, there's a couple of things there. You're a hundred percent right. We– relationships do need to be worked on.

Now for some people that's easier than others. There's no doubt that some people who, at the risk of oversimplifying, may be the more extroverted people who find it more enjoyable, easier. It just comes naturally to them. Some of us, some other people, need to work a bit harder at it, but it is something you need to work at.

And the other thing that came out through both of that, is that things change over time, which shouldn't be a surprise. You know, as we age and as our circumstances change and as our contexts change, you know, and you get married and you have children and then you retire, and all those sorts of things.

So, our relationships will change, but we do still need to work on it. We do still, it is important to have some friends, for some people that will be fewer than others. You know, so some people, some of us are happy with one or two good friends, that's enough. Other people might need five 10 or whatever. But…

Wendy Harmer: I can never have enough! 

Dr Happy: …and that's okay. Again, we're all different. 

Wendy Harmer: Well, yeah. My husband is, he has the most friendships of any person I've ever met in my entire life, to the point where every now and then, it's like barnacles on a barge. I have to go down and scrape them off… 

Dr Happy: Are you calling your husband a barge?

Wendy Harmer:  …every now and then. Yeah. But then he had his 50th birthday at our house. Mind you, 350 people came. 

Jean Kittson: Amazing. 

Dr Happy: Wow. 

Wendy Harmer: Lord. But it's almost…

Jean Kittson: I’m jealous. 

Wendy Harmer: …Yeah. But it's almost like his mission, you know, mission in life. But you know, I'll tell you something though. Oh, have you ever had this Jean, have you ever been jealous of someone else's friendship?

Because I remember years ago, I was a big Oprah aficionado. I loved everything that Oprah did. And then she talked all the time about her best friend, Gail King. 

Jean Kittson: Mm-hmm. 

Wendy Harmer: And they went on a road trip together and how they talked to each other three or four times a day and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I thought, oh, I wish I had a friendship like Gail and Oprah. So I had to stop reading about their friendship because it just seemed too ideal. But, I'm not sure that they weren't just lying. 

Jean Kittson: They–– didn't you say that they rang each other three or four times a day?  

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Three, three or four times a day. 

Jean Kittson: I know that seems excessive. 

Wendy Harmer: It does seem excessive. 

Jean Kittson: I think it seems like there's some insecurity there even. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Maybe.

Jean Kittson: Maybe, although, you know, we all need friends for different reasons, and we all need them at different times for different reasons. Often friends are the ones that get you through the hardest times in your life and you don't want to burden your family and your partner all the time with your insecurities.

Wendy Harmer: See, I wanna say something really important there, which I hate, which is, you know, where people, you know, they make their marriage vows and they say, ‘you are my best friend.’ And I think. I don't want my husband to be my best friend. 

My husband is my lover, but he's not my best friend. I mean, what do you think of that, Jean? 

Jean Kittson: Well, in some ways, I suppose, you need to have a friendship with your relationship. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: It needs to be companionable. You need to trust them to be able to be honest with each other, and that's what friendships are like, and to have sex. You know, if you…

Wendy Harmer: Be honest with each other? Are you serious? 

Jean Kittson: I'm serious. You gotta be honest about your– well, about how you're feeling, I mean, you don't, I mean– of course. I think honesty is really important, although, no, I don't wanna say anything too personal here, but there is a difference, yes.

There is a difference between your friendship with your girlfriends, where you can just download and, I mean, do you have a really close male friend, this is the other thing?

Wendy Harmer: Oh, yeah, yeah. I've got, actually, probably, I've got more male friends and female friends even. And I love my male friends.

When my husband and I got married, I had an ex-boyfriend in my bridal party and he had his– one of his girl, not his girlfriend, but a female friend in his party. So we are very relaxed, you know, about all that. But as I say, you know, yes, I believe in trust, absolutely, in a relationship with your partner. Honesty? Hmm. I'll get back to you. 

Jean Kittson: Well, I think with really good friends, you can be honest. I often hear people say, oh, these– well, you were talking about a friend who made you feel bad. I'm not talking about that. But I think some friends, you often hear people say, ‘oh, friends should build you up’ or ‘you should always have a positive relationship with them.’

But sometimes friendships go through periods where you are there to support them through really hard times. So, it's not always gonna be someone who makes you feel better about yourself. It's maybe you making them feel better about themselves. 

Wendy Harmer: But sometimes also as a friend, you've got to say, listen, I think that you might be, you know, on the wrong path here. Or, you know, you've gotta put… 

Dr Happy: Honesty. 

Wendy Harmer: …Yeah. You've gotta be diplomatic, haven't you? But some– do you think that a friend, good friend should be able to say, yeah, well, maybe, I don't know whether this is quite the–– how should we go about that? 

Dr Happy: Oh, for sure. I think, well, if I take my sort of professional hat on and just so to speak personally, because this is something I've learned over the years and, and I haven't really seen much research on it.There's not much talk in the sort of academic community about it. 

But, I've come to learn, there are different types of friends and so, I have some friends who I can talk honestly about and share my feelings with, even though I'm a bloke and then there are other friends who are fun, but I would never go to them necessarily if I have a problem.

And I don't think that necessarily makes them not a good friend. I think it took me a long time to learn there are just different friends who have, kind of almost different purposes for want of a better phrase, including my wife and family as well in that. And so there are some things I will call some people for and other things I'll call other people for and I don’t know if we necessarily give that as much consideration. 

Wendy Harmer: Is your…

Jean Kittson:  I think that's really true. 

Wendy Harmer: …Can I ask, do you think your wife is your best friend? 

Dr Happy: She is actually at the risk of disagreeing with you! But I don’t know if that's necessarily that common. I have, well, I suppose it depends how you define best, but we are very close friends. We've spent over 30 years now. 

Jean Kittson: I think you're right about friends for, you know, you don't have friends for all seasons. You have different friends for different seasons in a way. And I– there's friends I would call if I needed a bit of therapy, you know, uplifting, give me a confidence boost. And then there's friends that I would call to just take me out of my world into a whole different world. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah… 

Jean Kittson: …And that's, that's a benefit of having many friends or a few friends. But of course, what you mentioned before, some people are introverts and find friendships more difficult to maybe maintain or they're more exhausting and other extroverts might have a whole lot of friends – like you and Brendan are both extroverts, I would say, Wendy. 

Dr Happy: Well, so at the risk of disagreeing, that's a bit of a misunderstanding, with introverts and extroverts, so it's not– introverts don't necessarily find friendships difficult.

It's just that they don't get their energy from mixing with lots of people a lot of the time. So, they need to have time. They still could have good quality relationships, maybe not as many, but it's just that they'll need to take time out probably a bit more often and spend a bit more time on their own. So it is a bit of a– introverts aren't necessarily loners, or even lonely, for that matter. 

Jean Kittson: No, that's right. I'm glad you clarified that. I think I'm probably– was talking about sort of at parties and big [events] whereas extroverts get their energy, they find the whole thing… 

Dr Happy: Yeah. When you were describing your husband's party with 350 people, this is my worst nightmare. I was thinking, my God, I'd be out of there in five minutes. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Tim, can I ask you, how do we kind of know, how do we know when we are deficient in friendship. Is there any universal standard or is it just every single person will feel that very differently? 

Dr Happy: That's a really good question. And there's probably multiple answers.

Wendy Harmer: Thanks. It's a better question than Jean’s! 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, wow, I was– you just interview us, Wendy. I would be so happy. 

Dr Happy: As I say, no, great question. I think everyone is different. So again, we all need, you know, some of us are quite happy with a very small group of intimate friends, other people want the 350, whatever it might be.

I guess the real question is to ask yourself honestly, like, how do I feel about my life? Do I feel I have enough, do I feel it's adequate in that context and in other contexts as well? Because there's a difference between being alone and being lonely – [we] kind of almost touched on that before.

And again, there some people are perfectly happy, either totally on their own or maybe just one or two people in their lives. Other people need more than that, and it's not– one's not right or wrong or better or worse, it's just, again, we're different. So the question then is, how do you feel and if you are, if you don't feel happy with it… Although what we do need to be careful of, and you kind of touched on this a bit earlier maybe with the Oprah thing, is social comparison. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. 

Dr Happy: We do need to be careful looking at, you know, let's say you or your husband saying, ‘oh, she's got lots of friends. I don't have enough so I'm inadequate.’ 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. 

Dr Happy: That's not necessarily the case. Social comparison is problematic and number is one, because as you hinted at, especially on social media, it's not always accurate. Not always truthful. But two, even if it does work for you or Oprah, it doesn't necessarily mean it works for me. 

Wendy Harmer: Mm-hmm. 

Dr Happy: So we've all gotta find our own right way, our own balance, I suppose. And again, for some people that will be a bit easier than others. 

Wendy Harmer: Mm, 

Jean Kittson: Yes. I suppose as you get older too, there's going to be, there's so many more responsibilities in your life. I know that as a carer, people always say, ‘oh, maintain your own friendships and maintain a social life,’ but it's almost impossible if you are a carer for someone and you're on-call and you have to cancel social engagements, and you find yourself drifting away from friends and moving – you're no longer the inner circle of your friendship group. You're getting further and further out. 

And I just wonder if that's– if you can repair that, if that couldn't be repaired when you are, you know, you have more time and let fewer responsibilities. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. It feels like, to me, it feels like to me that anyone that you want to have in your life would understand that.

And if, if you picked up the phone and said, ‘look I've been caring for, you know, a sick relative or mum and dad or whatever,’ and I find myself now, you know, I don't have that as much responsibility anymore for whatever reason, whether there's been a bereavement or whatever that if you, if that, if you pick up the phone and that person says, welcome back and I've been thinking of you, and they welcome you with open arms, that's the person you want in your life, don't you think?

Jean Kittson: Definitely. But I think the distance that can happen over years particularly means that people move on with their friendships and their lives have changed and you can no longer be intimately involved with their lives and it takes a lot to catch up. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah, that's true. 

Jean Kittson: But you really– I think somehow you have to bridge that otherwise you will be lonely.

Dr Happy: It's a really good point. As you were saying that I was, again, reflecting on my personal life as opposed to my professional life. And I was thinking, I've always found it difficult, you know, initially, busy starting my career and trying to establish my career, then getting married, having young children, and at that time, not that many of my friends had young children at the same time. 

So that sort of then, you know– so there was always, and now caring for elderly parents, et cetera. There's always been something that's potentially got in the way, but I am at a stage now where I'm trying to reestablish because I lost – I don't wanna bring this down too much – I lost many years through mental ill health, through quite serious depression, anxiety, and I particularly lost a lot of friendships because I isolated, it wasn't their fault necessarily.

So I'm trying to reestablish it. And it's interesting, and this goes to your point, I think, to see how people respond. And some people are welcoming me back with open arms saying, ‘great, we missed you.’ Other people, not so much. And that's fine, I suppose. I guess you do learn when you do make that effort, who the real friends are.

Wendy Harmer: One of the things that I'd like to talk about is that it is often women in relationships who are doing the heavy lifting when it comes to friendship. Of course this is very problematic if there is a bereavement, you know, and like my dad. My dad ended up living alone without friends. And I mean, it was very, I mean, he ended up, I think they prescribed him Prozac or some darn thing or whatever, but that happens to a lot of men, doesn't it really? It's something to watch out for, I would've  thought. 

Dr Happy: Certainly. Yeah, the research is pretty clear. Older men, well, men generally, tend to be not quite as good at fostering and developing those relationships. It tends to become more problematic as they age, and they tend to become more isolated, which is then a high risk factor for a whole range of problems including depression, but also other health problems as well.

So yeah, it is a big problem and I think we're starting to see a real explosion as this, as the baby boomers really are hitting that, well are at that age now, I suppose, and even Gen X are getting to that point. Things are changing. So when I– I think my generation was sort of the bit of a turning point and then–– 

Well, when, if I look at my son, for example, is in his early twenties and how he interacts, and he might not be typical, but the way he relates to particularly his male friends is very different in a good way, I think.

Jean Kittson: In a good way. Yeah. 

Wendy Harmer: I think I agree. Same with my–– how old's your son? 

Dr Happy: 23. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah, mine's 28. I see them very accepting of each other. They don't have to, well, you know, maybe this, our particular sort of…

Dr Happy: We might not be typical… 

Wendy Harmer: But they don't have to put on that macho thing, and they're very, it seems to me they do reach out to a friend who's down. You know, going through a hard time, they seem to be softer. 

Dr Happy: I think it is changing. So, I mean, I did a podcast series a few years ago on what does it mean to be a man? And the main thing I took, I learned from, I mean, I was meant to be teaching people, I suppose, but the main thing I learned from that is that there isn't one masculinity. There are masculinities. 

There are multiple ways to quote/unquote be a man. And I think I sort of try and talk a lot about that, particularly young men that, you know, there are different ways to be masculine. There are different ways to show your emotions. There are different ways to be vulnerable.

Again, we'll all do that differently, but if we can be more accepting, I think that's really important because, you know, men as a result of all of that, there are significant health and mental health problems, from poor definitions of masculinity. 

Jean Kittson: Yes, of course. 

Wendy Harmer: Hey Jean, do you reckon you can make a new friend at our age?

Jean Kittson: Well, I was just going to ask you that, in fact, Wendy. I think well, if we take from the men's side, often people of our age and getting older are put into retirement villages or their families say, you know, you go off and sell the family home. And they wanna put us with each other instead of a cross section.

And we’re supposed to make friends like we were back at kindergarten and often people are in their 80s and they move into a whole new community. 

Wendy Harmer: They're quite set in their ways. Of course. 

Jean Kittson: …yes, of course Not flexible. 

Jean Kittson: Well, maybe they just have other, different incapacities. Maybe they can't see very well, maybe they can't hear very well, and you're supposed to start new friendships at that stage in life. I think that from my point of view, but I'd rather ask you both this.. 

Wendy Harmer: …but you've written the books about this… 

Jean Kittson: Well, I wrote books about being, yes, about caring for our elders and how to make sure they got what they wanted and they had the life they wanted. And not many people wanna leave their community at a late age and try to make new friends, that's for sure.

It's very, very difficult. And often it comes with, because of their maybe ill health and they can't– mum had lost her sight for 20 years and mum and dad, both of them couldn't hear very well. So it was harder to make new friends, but they did through groups, like you're saying, how do you make new friends?

It's like the Men Shed, or bowling for the vision impaired – which is a very dangerous sport, I must say – but you make new friends by, and we had…  and there's, you know, choirs and painting and perhaps joining groups where you're not having to go out for a coffee and sit opposite a stranger and try to, you know, find common ground, that you're doing something else. 

It's like the friendships, I imagine, it's like those sometimes very intimate friendships you have with people on a train or a bus or a plane that you know you're never going to see again, and then you just share all sorts of things. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm really pleased to hear that because I mean, it just sounds horrifying to me, the idea of going to an aged care home and being sat around with a whole lot of people and then think, and someone jollying and like, ‘oh, let's all be friends’. I could not think of anything worse. But you're saying that it doesn't have to be like that. 

Jean Kittson: Oh, there is a lot of community and if you're there for a while, I mean, people often are very– start off not very happy in those sort of places, because they've had illness.

And there'll be a lot of people probably listening to this podcast who are struggling with things that are happening in their lives and thinking, well, how do I even have time for friends? But it is really important, even if you've only got one friend, don't you think?

Dr Happy: Definitely, and I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think it is difficult, I think we all acknowledge that, but it is possible. 

And I think you're right. Joining clubs, societies, community– I mean, I was thinking of my mum who, after mum and dad got divorced and very later became a very passionate bridge player like multiple times a week.

And that was her family. It was her second family. It was– dad's been very involved in Rotary. So some of the– you know, there are communities or groups that already exist, you know, woodworking or sporting or the Men's Sheds for example, that's a great way to do it because you're also pursuing, you know, presuming you're pursuing a passion that you enjoy or some sort of hobby, but you're interacting with other people. So that is possible and it's one of probably, the best and easiest way to do it if that's something you want to or need to do. 

Wendy Harmer: Mm-hmm. I did a little bit of research about this, about resilience in children, and one of the conclusions is that resilience, if a child– a child just needs one adult to make a difference to their resilience. So, and you know, that might not be mum or dad, it could be a friend, could be a relative or whatever, but just that one person, and I'm thinking it's probably the same in old age as well. 

Dr Happy: Yeah, well I talk a lot about happiness and thriving, flourishing, and as I had said earlier, I talk a lot about positive relationships because it's one of the most important contributors.

And I often talk about what I call ‘3:00 AM friends.’ Who would you call at 3:00 AM when the [bleep] hits the fan? – Am I allowed to say that? – When something goes wrong. 

And well like you said, you really only need one. I mean, if you've got two or three. That's just fantastic. But if you've got one person who you can call when something's gone wrong, that's all you need and that's super important at any age really. 

Wendy Harmer: Well I’ve got Jean on speed dial.

Jean Kittson: Call me at 3:00 AM anytime, Wendy. Oh, that's a very great point.

Wendy Harmer: I've never thought of that. That’s a really good point, who would you call? 

Jean Kittson: Who would you call…

Wendy Harmer:…who would you call at 3:00 AM? Well, I know that Jean has been such an extraordinary carer for her mum and dad that I know that she'll have every number of every medical centre, ambulance, where to get drugs…  

Jean Kittson: But which friend would I call? 

Dr Happy: Can I get your number? 

Jean Kittson: And have you got someone you would call after…? 

Dr Happy: Well, at the risk of upsetting Wendy, my wife. And then well, yeah, I'm pretty lucky to have a good family as well. So, I wouldn't say we are best buddies who speak every day, but I have a brother and sister, and we have pretty good, strong relationships.

I think if I needed to, I know either one of them would do whatever they could. I have a father who's still, he's obviously getting– my mother died, but he's elderly and physically sort of isn't able to do much, but he would do whatever he could, obviously. And then, yeah, I do have a small handful of friends who I think if I really needed to and who I have, I suppose in the past, called up when I needed to.

Wendy Harmer: I wanna put this, I mean, I really, really must insist here that, I'm talking about in the event that my husband is like, lying next to me dead or something, who am I gonna call? Because he would be the first person…

Dr Happy:  …well if he's dead there's no point calling anyone! 

Jean Kittson: It's interesting that, well, sometimes people would prefer, well, what am I trying to say here? Sometimes I feel guilty when I think the first people I would call would be in my family. They're the people I'm closest to, probably, and they're the ones that I– we share everything. 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah, of course. 

Jean Kittson: But then psychologically that could be called enmeshment, if I say I'd call my daughters if I, you know, needed something at three in the morning, they'd be the first people that I would.

Wendy Harmer: Of course.

Jean Kittson:  But, I'm not sure whether that's unhealthy or not. 

Dr Happy: No, not necessarily. Enmeshment is maybe the three times a day sort of thing, but calling – and probably I should have put my kids in that when I was talking about earlier as well – but no, I think calling… One of the greatest myths in our society, I think, and one of the greatest myths and misconception about happiness or life generally, is this myth of independence. And I could bang on about neoliberalism… 

Wendy Harmer: …No man is an Island, John Donne…

Dr Happy: But no, well, I think so much of a sort of quote/unquote Western society is focused on independence and individual responsibility. And that's not to say we shouldn't be responsible. Of course we should, but we are social animals.

We're social beings, and there's nothing wrong at all in needing other people and relying on other people. Not every minute of every day for everything. That's problematic. But when something goes wrong, we shouldn't feel bad at all about reaching out and asking for help.

Wendy Harmer: But this is also, this is also a product of the kind of society that we live in. I mean, if you look at those intergenerational households… 

Dr Happy: Mm-hmm. 

Wendy Harmer: …that you see in so many other cultures, of course everyone's enmeshed and everyone's friends, everyone's arguing, everyone's, you know, it's a whole…

Jean Kittson:  Ecosystem… 

Wendy Harmer: …in itself. That's right. And so you've got, living down the street, there's this ecosystem there and this one there and this one there.

But, Australia, of course, we have this thing where, oh, you must grow up and move out of home and it's gonna be great for everyone. And I mean, it's not necessarily. 

Jean Kittson: Well, we're products of the nuclear family, aren't we? Where our… 

Wendy Harmer: Yeah, we sure are. 

Jean Kittson: …our parents were, they were aspirational. They wanted to leave the small towns and the… everyone seemed to think a small town was bad when I was growing up.

And you had to go to the city and that was where the excitement was and the stimulation was, and that's where people got things done and they were more interesting. And now I think we're realising that small towns and villages… 

Dr Happy: …green changes… 

Jean Kittson: …yeah, exactly. They really have so much to offer.

And you were talking about young people beforehand, people in villages, you know, now we need mentors for young people and this great organisation, Raise organisation, that puts mentors in schools. 

And that's another thing you can do if you're older and you wanna connect, you can volunteer to be a mentor for a younger person. A younger person once– you know, we had, when we were in a village, we had mentors, whether we liked it or not. We had companionship because everyone was interested in who we were and what we might contribute to the community. But that's lost. 

Wendy Harmer: Well, I'm glad you're asking. Yes, I will move in with you.

Jean Kittson: Yes. Move in and mentor me, Wendy. 

Dr Happy: No, I think… I couldn't agree more. I think there's no doubt that big cities do offer something like, you know, employment prospects and entertainment variety and even, you know, cafes and restaurants and blah, blah, blah.

But when we're– if you look at the research into, well not happiness at an individual level, but sort of, thriving and flourishing at a sort of higher level,  the happiest places to live tend to be those regional centres that are big enough… so for example, in, you know, New South Wales it would be Orange or Newcastle or Wollongong.

So they're big enough to have everything you might want, but still small enough to have a sense of connection and community. 

Wendy Harmer: …Geelong, Ballarat … 

Dr Happy: Yeah. So every state would have a version of that. 

And that's what you know, I think during COVID for example, we saw a significant shift to some of those places. Because that's what people were looking for, that connection, that community, and many of those people have stayed there or are continuing to move those spaces. 

So, I mean, I suppose if you can find that in the big city, great. That's good. That's what we wanna try and do, those of us that do live in big cities, to find that community through clubs, through societies, through whatever, you know, surf club, for example, that's a great example. Whatever it might be. 

Jean Kittson: That is an excellent piece of advice about finding the connection where you are. So many people reach our age and they decide they want a tree change or a sea change, and they leave their community and then they think their kids will visit, but they're back in the city with their own family earning a living, and then they find they're on their own again, and they've left the people that are really important. Yeah, would you ever move Wendy? 

Wendy Harmer: Oh yes. 

Jean Kittson: …but not far…

Wendy Harmer: Oh, yes! My husband's a bit of a mollusc and a rock. We lived in, I mean I grew up moving all over the place because dad was a rural school teacher. So, I mean, when we talk about friendships, well, you know, I had to make friends over and over and over again. 

And so I think that's why I might just have a little bit of neediness there because I always think, oh, you know, that things that you grow up with, I suppose a pathology. 

I would love to move, but my husband's very content to, you know, where he is. I've got one daughter who lives next door. I mean, I adore that. And then I've got one son who's, you know, he spends a lot of time overseas, so, I've got a bit, you know, I've got a bit of both. Would I move ?

Jean Kittson: Well, you could take your friends with you, obviously you would move in the same area, or would you do a really– I mean… I would be worried about community and friendship moving. 

Wendy Harmer: You have to understand this. Did I say mollusc on a rock? The man is immovable. It's not happening. So, yeah. But, you know, home for me is where I am. You know, I don't– because I grew up in all these different places, I don't really– if you said, Wendy, where's home? I would say, here, Wendy is home. That's where home is for me. So a little bit different. 

Jean Kittson: And Tim, what about you?

Dr Happy: Well, we were chatting before, and we're literally in the process of selling a family home that we've been in for 25 years. But we're probably not going to move very far at all, like a few kilometers. 

But what we have done, because we're empty nesters now, but we've also bought a block of bush, a couple of hours out of Sydney, where we're gradually spending more and more time. So that's thoroughly enjoyable, immersed in nature. So sort of trying to get the best of both worlds. We have a smaller place in Sydney and a nice retreat. 

Jean Kittson: That's perfect. That's like the ideal. 

Wendy Harmer: …best of both worlds. Fantastic. 

Jean Kittson: My sister and I both married people from New South Wales and then my parents moved from Sorento where they'd been for years and years, had a great network of friends and they moved up to New South Wales to be near my sister and I. We both had young kids. We were both, you know, we needed help, and they moved there.

And I went back to Sorento last week, and there were all these people – to do a fundraiser for a hospice – and there were all these people who were friends of mum and dad's. Because they were in business, they had friends that were younger.

We didn't touch on this, but friends of different ages, you know, not just your peers. They had friends who were my age who thought of them really fondly and it was really lovely. It was amazing how warmly they spoke of them and how if mum and dad had turned up again after 20 years, they would just fall straight back into that friendship.

Wendy Harmer: We get back to that, to the kind of culture that we live in that does not make being close as possible as it should. 

Jean Kittson: No, we should never have moved away from mum and dad. We should have stayed near them and they moved to be near us. And, I don't think they– they made some good friends, very, very good friends. But the friendships they'd made over their middle years were the closest friends, and long lasting. I mean, after their death, they were still friends with them. 

In fact, I was saying how I've got this problem because mum and dad's ashes are still in my cupboard, because mum wanted to be scattered at sea and dad wanted to be with mum, but not scattered at sea. So. I'm stuck.

Dr Happy: I'm not gonna get involved in that one! 

Jean Kittson: No, exactly!

Wendy Harmer: I've still got a whole lot of dad's ashes, because he moved around Victoria so much, I've got no idea where I should put them. I'd have to do this tour, you know, Cook’s tour and put I bit there, and a bit there, a bit there…

Jean Kittson: But what I was gonna say, one of these women who– mum had given her her first job, which I didn't really know her. She has a boat and she said I'll take their ashes out and scatter them for you. Wasn't that nice? 

Dr Happy: There you go, a generous offer. 

Jean Kittson: I know… what sort of… that's a pretty good friendship, I would say.

Wendy Harmer: Yeah. I'll scatter your ashes after you die. 

Jean Kittson: Will you? Thank you Wendy.

Wendy Harmer: I think I'll do it in the shoe department at David Jones. 

Jean Kittson: Do it next week…! 

Wendy Harmer: You'd be quite happy there, wouldn't you? 

Jean Kittson: That's where you would be. I'll be in the local op shop. Just leave them there. Someone will probably buy them. Would either of you like to say anything more about the importance of friendship because we can wrap up otherwise. 

Wendy Harmer: I would like to say that I'm still recruiting! 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. I'll share your number!

Wendy Harmer: …So if you'd like to… 

Jean Kittson: …this is Wendy's number

Wendy Harmer:  …if you'd like to be my, where's my camera? If you'd like to be my friend, do drop me a line. 

Look, I am Mrs Have-a-chat. My daughter just says, going down the street with you is a nightmare because I'm like, oh, there's the butcher. I might have a yarn with them. And oh, there's… So, yes. As I say, I'm taking applications.

Dr Happy: Oh. Well, I think I probably already made my point, but I just to reiterate, I'd say there are multiple factors that contribute to living a good and happy life, but if I was gonna say the most important thing, I would say fostering and developing good quality relationships. So, make it a priority. It's just as if not more important than anything else you can possibly do. 

Jean Kittson: Thank you both very much… 

Wendy Harmer: …And thank you for being my friend all these years. Jean Kittson, an ornament to my life. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. I'm a bauble on the Christmas tree of your friendship tower.

Wendy Harmer: Indeed. 

Jean Kittson: Oh no. Well, I'm very proud to be your friend, that's for sure. Thank you both so much. I've learned a lot and I'm gonna ring up some friends now… And thank you for sharing your stories of friendship too. Thanks, Wendy. Thanks, Tim.

Wendy Harmer: You're welcome. Thank you, Jean.

Dr Happy: Thank you. 

Jean Kittson: Thanks.

Thank you to Wendy Harmer and Dr Tim Sharp. You've been listening to DARE: The time of your life, brought to you by Australian seniors. Please leave a review and share this show with someone you know. Visit seniors.com au slash podcast for more episodes. Thank you. Goodbye.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode of DARE: The Time of Your Life, we are looking at Breaking New Ground. At an age when many people are beginning to look for the off switch, some over 50s are inspiring us by dreaming bigger than ever. Like our guest Jamie Durie. The landscape designer and TV host isn’t just  'not winding down', he’s completely upskilling and re-tooling. Join his conversation with host Jean Kittson alongside clinical psychologist and men’s mental health expert Dr Zac Seidler. 

About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA.

Join Jean Kittson for the seventh season of DARE: The time of your life (formerly Life’s Booming), called Better With Age. 

Too often ageing is painted as decline. In reality, Australians are living longer, healthier lives and reshaping what “older” looks like. This series flips the script and shows how ageing is not a dirty word but rather a time to be embraced, featuring interviews with extraordinary over 50s refusing to slip quietly into the background.

Award-winning landscape designer and sustainability advocate Jamie Durie was once a performer with all-male revue group Manpower, before he realised his passion for horticulture and garden design. Now Jamie is navigating the beautiful chaos of a young family in his 50s, while revolutionising the way we build our homes in TV’s Jamie Durie’s Future House. 

Dr Zac Seidler is a clinical psychologist, researcher and leading men’s mental health expert. He currently holds dual roles as Global Director of Research at Movember and Associate Professor with Orygen at the University of Melbourne.

Watch DARE: The Time of Your Life on YouTube   

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For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency

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TRANSCRIPT:

Jean Kittson: Welcome back to the podcast, DARE: the Time of Your Life, formerly Life's Booming, brought to you by Australian seniors in partnership with RSPCA. 

For more episodes, visit seniors.com au/podcast. 

Hi, I'm Jean Kittson, and this season is called Better With Age, where we are flipping the script and showing you how ageing is not a dirty word, rather it's a time to be embraced. 

In this episode, we are looking at Breaking New Ground. At an age when many people are beginning to look for the off switch, some over 50s are inspiring us by dreaming bigger than ever. 

Take our guest, Jamie Durie, the landscape designer and TV host isn't just not winding down, he's completely upskilling and retooling. From navigating the beautiful chaos of a young family in his fifties to revolutionising the way we build our homes with high tech prefab design, Jamie is living proof getting older doesn't automatically mean it's time to start downsizing. 

Also with us is Dr. Zac Seidler, a clinical psychologist and leading men's mental health expert. Zac is also global Director of Men's Health Research at Movember. Jamie and Zac, I'm so happy to welcome you both to the studio. Welcome. 

Jamie Durie: Thank you. Yeah, great to be here. Good to meet you, Zac. 

Zac Seidler: You too, Jamie. Can’t wait to chat.

Jean Kittson: I know. Well, it's so exciting to hear what you're doing, Jamie, and you know when people are usually in their fifties, I suppose they start thinking about maybe slowing down or… never crossed your mind?

Jamie Durie: Well, I think we, as men, and I'm hoping I'm not alone here, Zac. We only really start working it out in our 40s, and by the time you then reach 50, you go, Hmm, okay, now I know exactly where I wanna land and exactly what I wanna focus on. And I've got the experience behind me where I've made a few mistakes, learnt along the way, and I can apply with accuracy and shoot with a rifle – not a shotgun at your goals, if you like. Because the idea of, kind of, focusing in on the things that I think you’re most passionate about and that are most relevant in your place is, I think, distilling everything you've learned throughout your career.

Jean Kittson: Yeah. It's something you come to with experience. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: And as you say, making maybe some mistakes, but then refining, fine tuning where your passion is, is this, like what you are doing now with this prefab. Is it the Prefab housing where you are also doing something called the Infinity Garden? 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: What's… tell us about this project?

Jamie Durie: Well this, you know, Future House is the name of the show, and we're now at Channel Nine, which is brilliant, and we've had an amazing season. 

Basically it's an exploration of modern methods of construction and if we are sitting in the building crisis right now, the housing crisis, and we've got, you know, 1.2 million homes to build over the next five years – how on earth are we gonna achieve that target when we're 87,000 trades short of achieving that target with our conservative ways of building houses?

Our houses need to be more energy efficient. They need to be more cost effective. They need to be more structurally sound. They need to be more resilient with increased weather attacks, you know, over the last five, 10 years, we've all seen the floods, the fires, the storms all increasing. And then how do we make it more affordable for everyday Australians so that we can all, you know, get off this renting bus and actually start to own a piece of Australia and be proud of it, but make it more affordable. 

So that’s what it’s really about. Prefab has come a long way. We're no longer talking about those archaic old ‘kit homes’, they're now beautifully designed, sophisticated homes, some of them, which you can buy at a hardware store at Bunnings these days. 

Jean Kittson: Wow. 

Jamie Durie: I don't know whether you've seen that or not, but it's amazing what's happening in this space and we're playing catch up and we wanted to develop a format to talk about those where we could, you know, pass on some of these learnings and create intelligent DIY design where Australians could learn from what we are learning from and help progress the solutions around solving the building crisis. 

Jean Kittson: Well, I can hear that you are using all your background in, you know, gardens and landscaping and building, but also a maturity that, you know, and in experience and knowledge that comes with age as you personally. And then you taking this knowledge and experience and then putting it into the community for a really important community benefit. 

How does that… does that make you feel good about your work? Is that what you mean by focusing more, in your 50s?

Jamie Durie: Oh, for sure. This is the show I've always wanted to make. Having worked on 56 primetime shows throughout my career, which is a lot, when you only started at kind of 28. It feels like everything's come full circle because, you know, we're not just inspiring people to take up new ideas, but we're instilling them with education and awareness around how to create more sustainable homes, how to tread more lightly on the planet, how to reduce our energy costs, how to tackle the cost of living crisis and how to get more Australian families into more homes faster.

Jean Kittson: That's amazing. I mean, from a person… personally, that's a lot of work, Jamie. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson:You don't feel like you should be slowing down, spending more time, you know… 

 Jamie Durie: …weirdly 

Jean Kittson: …pottering around. 

Jamie Durie: No, weirdly, the more I dive into this, the more passionate I become and passion creates energy. You know, it just comes from somewhere.

You would know this, Zac. You know, I mean, what you guys have created is astonishing and the people's lives that you've touched through the funds raised throughout Movember is absolutely mind blowing.  

Zac Seidler: Thanks Jamie, I appreciate that. It's been a community effort in a very similar vein, and I think Australians can really get around that type of… 

Jamie Durie: …Yeah…

Zac Seidler: …of grassroots community building when you provide them with the right resources to do so. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: But I love the idea that, you know, I don't, I think that slowing down, that idea of becoming 50 or 60 and starting to slow down, especially because life expectancy is increasing – thank God. 

Jamie Durie: …Yeah…

Zac Seidler: …We're moving, you know, into longer lives, hopefully healthier lives as well.

The data is pretty clear that when men start to slow down, bad things happen, to be honest. Retirement is not a good vibe for lots of guys because they have not built the scaffolding around them. They often haven't spent a lot of time with their friends or family over the years because they've been in this provider protector mode for so long, that when it slows down, they go, okay, I'm gonna play golf, I guess, or something and I've never played it before. 

And how does this work? And who are the guys I'm gonna call? And so, I really like the idea of seeing eras of your life and the fact that as you are maturing and ageing, you are becoming more dynamic in ways and kind of getting rid of the stuff that was a waste of energy, the stress, the anxiety, the trying to do a thousand things at once that I'm probably still doing and hopefully we'll get rid of at some point. But that ability to work out where you want to spend your time and energy for, you know, the next era and then there'll be another one after.

That's so important. And I think, you know, Movember has been around for over 20 years and we're now moving into the next stage. We were just this young kid on the block, you know, kind of breaking stuff and trying to work out what's the best way to show up in the charity space and really change men's lives, and it started with a practical joke. It starts with, with something that everyone… 

Jean Kittson: …A pun, yeah. 

Zac Seidler: A pun. Exactly. And it moves from that conversation starter really into thousands of programs and a billion dollars plus that we've fundraised over the years. And so many people say that men don't wanna get around this stuff.

You know, it's like, oh… Typically it is women leading charity dinners and doing fundraising events and we kind of broke that mould and suggested that if you provide the right framework, something that is about banter and community and mateship and the things that matters to guys and their health. You know, health by stealth is always what we say…

Jean Kittson: Yeah, health by stealth… 

Zac Seidler: Go around, don't hit them on the head with the thing. 

Jean Kittson: No, 

Jamie Durie: …that's right. 

Jean Kittson: Start in a light way with a light, you know, an idea that's fun. And then dig a bit deeper.  

Jamie Durie: And it's the path of least resistance, isn't it? Because I grew up watching Magnum PI. And there's a Tom Selleck in all of us, where we desperately wanted to grow that mustache, but just didn't feel like there was enough reason to, and this gives us the excuse.

Jen Kittson: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: To go, oh, I'm doing something good. And I'm also exploring this mustache, which could look terrible on me, but it also could look fantastic. And my Mrs might love it! 

Zac Seidler: I love the wives and the girlfriends who are just like, ‘make this stop!’ every year. But that is the joy of this thing.

And some people find that they can grow a beautiful mustache. We had a whole campaign called Shit Mo’s Save Lives. You've got this wispy thing. It doesn't matter.

Jean Kittson:  It doesn't matter! 

Jamie Durie: Growing a mustache doesn't happen overnight. No. And so there's this constant reminder of the cause. And bringing people back, bringing people's minds back every time you look in the mirror, oh, that's why I'm doing this because I'm raising money for this cause. 

Zac Seidler: And we also want to get around the idea that, you know, November is one month of the year.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: We're lucky to have the pun to stand behind. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: But this is an all-year situation. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: You know, there are guys, whether it's prostate cancer, testicular cancer, mental health and, and suicide prevention, lots of the things that we work in, they don't come and go, you know? They are a part of men's health.

They're a part of our families. Our wives deal with them, our children manage this stuff. And so we wanna make this an all year round conversation, and it just gets supercharged in November. 

Jean Kittson: So what would you say to men who perhaps think they can just stop everything or they've had to stop everything because of health or their age or their jobs finished because of their age and they think they can go out to play golf.

But then as you say, they may not have the friends around because they haven't stayed in touch with them, or that. So how do men find a new purpose? Because I think what you are doing, Jamie, is really a progression, a development of everything you've been doing in your past. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah.

Jean Kittson: But some men have just spent their whole lives doing one thing. And then suddenly that stops. So how do they find a new sort of purpose, or how can they build on the skills, the knowledge they have? 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: What, what do you say to them?

Zac Seidler: I'm very keen for Jamie's thoughts, but the way that I see it, because I see a lot of men in their 50s, 60s… It's funny because lots of guys now are having their midlife crisis in their 30s, which is kind of good because they still have the time to pivot accordingly.

But what happens is that, when we get into the 60s, 70s, even, even 80s –– my grandpa's 96 and still kicking; he’s around. He goes into his office every day. I have no idea what he does, but he goes to work, right? 

So there's a part of that purpose that comes from that, but it's about an expansion really, which is that if you are myopic and you have this singular vision of who you are, and this is all that you can do, when that thing ends, whether you are fired, made redundant, you know, you retire, whatever might take place, you know we're in shifting times at the moment, and without that foresight and without the vulnerability to go, who am I? Taking pause going, who am I? What matters to me? What are my values and how can I go about, you know, picking and choosing lots of different things to spend my time doing, whether that's family, friends, hobbies… You know, it shouldn't just come when you click pause and you go, who am I now? What am I supposed to do? Because that is going to breed catastrophe. It's terrifying for all of us. 

You need to work your way up to it and realise, there is, each day, a chance to kind of do a little bit more in different fields of your life, water the ground in different areas, and realise that if you are, you know, you can be a one track, you can be a one corporation man your entire life. There's nothing wrong with that. But if it comes at the cost of you never prioritising your kids or your friends or your hobbies, that's just not really what we're here for. 

We're here to do many different things and to expand and grow. And I always find it very interesting. There's this trope that men don't talk, they don't want to go to therapy, they don't want to discuss what's happening in their lives. And I always, whenever a guy comes in and he is a bit, you know, doesn't have all the words, he grunts a bit. He's silent most of the time. I'm like, why are we here if not to understand ourselves?

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And I think that lots of guys, when they get into those later years, they start to do that work, but it'd be lovely if they could do it a bit earlier. 

Jamie Durie: I didn't start my career in, you know, finding our future version of our house, you know, like what is the modern method of construction? I'd started in a very different space, where I was in Las Vegas dancing with an all male group called Manpower. You know? 

Jean Kittson: Dancing very well!

Zac Seidler: Well, various people said, you need to talk to Jamie about this. You brought it up, not me! 

Jamie Durie: No, no. And, but listen, they were the greatest years of my life and, you know, I started when I was 16. I was lucky enough to meet, along my travels, and we toured 14 different countries and played to, you know, sometimes 8,000 women a night at various 

 Zac Seidler: …and that one guy that was forced to be there!

Jamie Durie: …entertainment centers… Yeah, in Sun City, in South Africa and Hong Kong and all over the place. And, I got to see a lot of the world, many, many times. Circumnavigated the globe many times before I was even 21. And I think, travel's been, you know, my greatest teacher. They say it's the university of life. And so by the time I got to sort of 23, I was like, okay, what do I really wanna do with my life?

And weirdly, I met a garden designer, by the name of Paul Bengay and we got talking. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: And he took me to his garden design studio and he said, ‘this is what I do,’ and I said, you design gardens for a living. This is amazing. So not only could I help heal the planet by planting more trees.

But I can also do it in a creative way that would stimulate the creative side of myself. Right? So before I left Manpower, I enrolled into a horticultural course for four years, and there was that overlap effect where I was still doing shows. Still producing calendars. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: …and my teachers had copies of my calendar.

My horticultural teachers had copies of my calendar in their, in their staff room. And they were laughing at the fact that I was, you know, turning up to school every week, learning the names of plants – three and a half thousand of them – and, and throughout that period, you know, I didn't really graduate until I'd sort of reached, I think 30, but those last few years of my life where I was still doing shows at the Crown Casino in Melbourne and, and Las Vegas in the summer in in America… but I was going to school and studying. 

That's the pivot. That is… there's that overlap effect. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. Overlap, yeah. 

Jamie Durie: Find what you are passionate about. Start seeding that idea, pushing your way into what is it that I next wanna do and move. And I think my love for the environment started way back then.

And then morphed into what I'm doing today. And there's been that overlap into, okay, how are we gonna repair the planet as well? So, you know, I've overlapped the next section of my career out of horticulture and then into environmental work, you know, so I'm… 

Zac Seidler: It’s so, so values driven. And that's the thing, you know, you see young guys now who all want to be entrepreneurs and I end up seeing them because they're struggling to kind of reach this status that they believe they should reach in order to be successful. But it's get rich quick. And what you're describing is time, it's time, it's effort. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah

Zac Seidler: It requires an understanding of what matters to you. And trial and error and failure and all of that stuff.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: Which eventually. That all is the making of a man, you know? Yeah, yeah. Over time and you, you did two things at once, because you've gotta make a living. You've gotta try to work out what matters to you, where you're gonna go next, and you just keep following those open doors rather than going, this has to happen now.

Jamie Durie: Oh yeah. Yeah. I remember. I remember doing a Samsung campaign. I was naked. And I was, I was, I finished that campaign and then I'd, I'd literally the next, that afternoon was at Ryde horticultural college studying plants. But, you know, something had to pay the rent, right? 

Jean Kittson: Yeah that's right…

Jamie Durie: …you kind of... 

Jean Kittson: … it looks like a world, world apart, but you were able to do that.  

Jamie Durie: …Yeah.

Jean Kittson: …follow both. Do this thing you had to do… 

Jamie Durie: But Zac, you've pointed out something there, which I think is quite important. And I think it sits in all of us as genuine human beings and it's cause-related drive. And the advertising industry call is called this CRM: cause related marketing. But cause-related drive sits in all of us.

And when we suddenly tap into something that we feel like… is supporting community, supporting the planet, supporting your fellow human being. There's a different drive inside you that kicks in. You've got it. That's what's driven you with, with your group, over the years. I've got it there. There's, so if you can tap into what is your cause-related drive, you don't really have to find the energy. 

Zac Seidler: Mm-hmm. 

Jamie Durie: It finds you… 

Zac Seidler: That, that is exactly how I feel. Like, lots of people roll their eyes when they ask me, are you, you know, what's your job like, what's a dream job? And I'm like, I'm in it. I'm living it. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And no one wants to hear this positivity for some reason.

 Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: I'm like, everyone wants to complain all the time. And I'm like. No, I've, I'm having a good time. It's con–– it's nimble, it's constantly dynamic. It changes every day. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: The lives of men, the, the man that shows up in, in front of me, he changes every moment. Let alone all of the other guys around him in the same way that nature constantly adapts over time.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. You know, Zac, you're underselling yourself a little bit because Movember started here in Australia. 

Zac Seidler: Mm-hmm. In 2003. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. But now how many countries does it here? 

Zac Seidler:  Over 20. 

Jamie Durie: And you've raised how much? 

Zac Seidler:  Over a billion Australian. 

Jamie Durie: That is a huge impact, and those funds get distributed.

How… and are you part of the decision making process around that? 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: Tell me, tell me about that. 

Zac Seidler: So, I, so I lead our research team. So we've got, you know, 20 PhDs across the globe who are asking questions around what's going on for men, what's happening when they engage with health systems; you know, what's happening for new dads?

You know, how, how is the GP gonna ask questions about it? To a dad who might be experiencing postnatal depression…

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …but isn't aware of it. We're looking at the manosphere in social media to make, you know, men's lives a bit easier so they don't get tricked into some of this stuff, which is…

Jamie Durie: Yeah.

Zac Seidler: …which is harming them.

So I get to do the research. Then we've got an entire program’s team where we're going to the community, grassroots, and creating programs in local footy clubs for coaches, parents, and young guys…

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …to understand the signs, spot the signs, be able to talk with one another when they're struggling. Upskill community, fundamentally, around what to look for.

Because I'm sure back in your days, that idea of, like, guys getting around one another at the pub and talking about what is bothering them… 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, no… 

Zac Seidler: …what they're feeling, what matters to them, how they wanna show up in their families with their mates. It's a new conversation and we're trying to provide the language for lots of these guys to be able to have those chats. 

So, we build all of these different programs with community partners. You know, we are not doing this alone. We stand on the shoulders of giants, definitely. But it's just this, this humility, this Australian way kind of where we just find our way into, into grassroots organisations, in York, in the UK, we're in California, in the States, we're in Toronto.

We just work out what's working there and we try and ramp it up with them, with the funds that we've raised. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. So good. 

Jean Kittson: Mm-hmm. It is so good. Imagine that it's very regenerative too, because it sounds like there… that at any age you can sort of discover yourself. 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: And find your passion and find the cause that drives you.

And this would, so when, when men would reach a certain age, some of them haven't had any relationships – you know, the sort of intimate relationship with their families that a mother might have and their kids. 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: So then they're suddenly in a grandparent role. Then they've, then they've, they've gotta relearn how to connect emotionally, I suppose.

Zac Seidler: But you see that, you see, it's beautiful. And I think the, the grandparents, the grandfather's situation in this generation is really unique. Where you see a lot of kids get a bit angry because they're like, I never got this attention. But the way in which grandfathers are going, oh, I was a career man and I spent all day, every day, I missed out on bath time. I didn't get to go and, and watch, you know, him play soccer. I didn't get to do any of these things. And now they're trying to re-parent themselves in a way. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And take back those opportunities that was, you know, taken from them because they weren't purposeful, they weren't able to go, what is actually possible here, and that's also what Movember is trying to do, is open those doors and say, being a man does not mean living within these constraints that you have been sold. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: Because they are harming you. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: They're fundamentally harming you. There's a reason that men die four years younger than women in Australia.

That's a big gap, and it largely comes down to preventable reasons. 

Jamie Durie: …Yeah..

Jean Kittson: …yeah…

Zac Seidler: …yeah. 

Jamie Durie: I'm father to three children. My first child, I had in my early 20s, and I'm a much better father now in my 50s than I was when I was 20, right. 

And I find very, very early on in my career, I was looking into a great speaker by the name of Anthony Robbins. We've all, we all know who Anthony, but he, there was one little nugget of wisdom that he shared with some of some of his followers, and that was the ‘wheel of life’. And within that wheel of life, you would have community, spirituality, friendship, family, career all that stuff helps the wheel go around.

And if one of those pieces of pie was not, kind of, out to its extremity, the wheel doesn't roll. And so I've mentally kind of always tried to keep that check in my life. But more so these days because, it's funny, the more time you put into your kids, the more worthwhile your life feels. It's incredible what they teach you.

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: And I just feel like now I'm, I'm going to battle for my family every day rather than just myself. 

So it's a much less selfish way of life. But also we've got an enormous responsibility to raise these kids in the very best way that we possibly can and to keep bettering ourselves as parents and humans on a day-to-day basis so that that stuff spills over to them and they become great custodians of the planet and great, great movers and shakers and whatever, whatever it is they want to do.

Jean Kittson: Whatever, yes. 

Jamie Durie: You know, and you've gotta instill that stuff to them, I think. 

Zac Seidler: So many people ask me to define, like, healthy manhood or masculinity. Because we're talking, we, we so often talk about toxicity and what is broken and what is wrong, and men doing bad things, which takes place.

But we don't really have an aspiration. We don't have a message around what is possible. And I think that idea of being in constant sync around this notion of growth that comes in multiple ways within your life, there are all of these quadrants, there are all of these parts of yourself that it doesn't, it's not a day-to-day thing, necessarily.

You know, sometimes you're gonna be working really hard and you're not gonna be able to, to be there at dinner, but what do you do to recalibrate the next day? 

Jean Kittson: Yeah.

Zac Seidler: How do you find ways to make sure that that thing is in sync? 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, 

Zac Seidler: …because that's what drives distress in guys, and that's what they're not necessarily aware of that when some of those quadrants are falling away.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: … They are feeling less like themselves. 

Jamie Durie: Yes. 

Zac Seidler: And it drives them potentially to do some things that are, that are not in their best interest. Like if you're feeling like you're not being the best dad, lots of men start drinking more. Lots of men start pulling themselves away more because their kids start to, you know, rebel.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: When instead what is actually required is a leaning in, and that is that vulnerability that is required rather than this guilt pulling back and saying. This is not for me. 

Jean Kittson: …Defensiveness…

Zac Seidler: Exactly. And you see that in, in a lot of guys. You see it a lot, a lot of women as well, which is this: You're feeling challenged.

You're feeling like you're not living the life that you thought you were supposed to, and so you keep repelling further in the opposite direction rather than saying, maybe I'm a bit off kilter here and I should, I should recalibrate and work out what, what matters and have the conversations. 

And I want guys… lots of guys do this with their wives. It ends up being so much emotional burden on the women because the guys don't have deep male friendships where they can go and have these chats with other guys without feeling like a failure. Have you got guys in your life where you feel like you can, really… 

Jamie Durie: Oh, totally… 

Zac Seidler: …get into it? 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. My best mate and I, ironically, we danced together back in the Vegas days. So we've been mates since, you know, I was 20 and we talk probably three times a week. He's a dental technician. 

Zac Seidler: How far you've both come! 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yeah. He's there making the most extraordinary little pieces of technical equipment that, you know, dentures and things for people that gives them self-esteem and pride and function and health and stuff, which is quite amazing.

He's such a talented dexterous man, but he's constantly sitting in his laboratory, in his studio, you know, tinkering away. So he'll just call me in the middle of him making that stuff and I can hear that he's in the studio and I might be in a very different studio with TV, cameras rolling or whatever. But we always find ways to communicate and lean on each other when we need it most. And, and we have over the years, it's been great. Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: So you can be very vulnerable with him. 

Jamie Durie: Oh God, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, he's got skeletons in that, we will take to the vault!

Zac Seidler: Right. And that's what it's built, it's built on time. And energy and…

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …realising that you need to invest in this stuff. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And you see that, you know, you, you get 15-, 16-year-olds whose, whose friends are everything to them. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And then they go into university. Slowly but surely they get into the workforce, they move into parenthood and it just starts to drop away.

And you often see the wife is the one who is leading the social calendar. 

Jean Kittson: Yes, always.

Zac Seidler: They're the ones who are looking after everything. They're making all of the calls. And you know, they start to believe, these men, that they actually are not capable of this stuff when, you know, they're a CEO… they're doing really complex things during the day and suddenly they can't call their friends to like arrange a beer on a Saturday night?

What is that? And so I think it is, it's a muscle that needs working out… 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …over time. And it needs to be prioritised. Because consistently, you look at the Harvard Longitudinal Study, which is an incredible study, started in the 30s, still going. 

Jamie Durie: Mm-hmm. 

Zac Seidler: The guys who are still alive, they're in their 90s. They had quality friendships. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: It didn't matter if they smoked, how they exercised, what their jobs were, all that stuff…

 Jean Kittson: Really?

 Zac Seidler: …it washes away. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah.

Zac Seidler: We are human beings who require socialising. We require to be with one another, and that's why the loneliness crisis that happens for lots of older guys, older women as well, feeling so isolated, feeling like you don't have any purpose anymore.

You know, Men's Sheds, it's a group that we work really closely with. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, they're great. 

Zac Seidler: Incredible. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. And they have, they have women coming in now. You're tinkering, you're doing something. You've got mates there. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. It's great.

Zac Seidler:  It gives you something. We need more of that. I feel like those third spaces, those, those sheds, those community halls, they're just like evaporating.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler:  It's a real problem. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. Well, we used to see a lot more community gardens. I don't see them so much anymore. We often talk about work-life balance, but when you were talking about the wheel or…

Zac Seidler: mm-hmm. 

Jean Kittson: …and with all these different segments, I mean, because that's what life is.

It's more complicated. It's not just life over there and work there and you try and balance it out. You've gotta feed all these different elements of your life. 

Jamie Durie: Yes. 

Zac Seidler: Because work life balance makes it seem like life is 50% and work is 50%. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, it does. 

Zac Seidler: When in fact it's actually work should be 20, and 20 and 20.

You've got all of these little things. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yes. It is about creating balance within your life and if you, you know, anyone can do a quick equation of the various facets in your life and go, Ooh, I need to put a little bit more family time in here. Or, when was the last time I called my mum or my dad?

Or, you know, when was the last time I took my kids to the park and, and played with them and, and gave them a good time? And, and so you, you gotta constantly keep a check of yourself, but also you gotta look after your own mental health so that you can be a better father for them, right? I surf every Sunday with a group of guys that age between oh, 50, 52 through to 74.

Zac Seidler: Wow. 

Jamie Durie: In fact. Probably one of the best surfers in our group. He's had a double hip replacement.  

 Jean Kittson: Oh I love that…

Jamie Durie:  …And he's a better… he's a better surfer than I am, he's awesome. 

Jean Kittson:  …That's so great. 

Jamie Durie: …Oh yeah, if you can hear me now, Tones, this is a big plug for you, bro. 

Jean Kittson:Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: But I went and bought a new longboard yesterday and I was–– I couldn't wait to get out there at 7.30am with the boys just to kind of share this new longboard with them.

And we had a great old time. We caught plenty of waves and then we go to breakfast together and that's what my partner Ameka calls ‘church’ for us, right. So she's like, go and have some boy time. See you at lunch. 

Zac Seidler: Because it's ritualised. 

Jamie Durie: It is, yeah. And I've been doing it, you know, 12, 15 years now and I really crave it.

Zac Seidler: Yeah, because you don't have to pick up the phone and go, are we doing it this week? It's on, it's on. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Right. Oh yeah. And, and, and there's probably 30 of us altogether. Usually only 10 or 12 or even sometimes six turn up, you know? 

Jean Kittson:That's wonderful. 

Jamie Durie: But every so often they all, you know, one or two of them pop in and some of them are doctors, some of them come from the oil industry, some come from the textiles. Others are property valuers and all sorts of people. 

It's amazing. How many extraordinary high achieving blokes still require this – we all need church, I think. 

Jean Kittson: That ritual, that going, being able to gather when you want to without making an appointment…

Jamie Durie: That's right.

Jean Kittson: …And being together. 

 Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: I think one thing about your work, Jamie, I would say is that when we were talking before about men retiring and then going home, and then the wife taking over. Your work has always been around creating spaces around people's homes. Your own homes. Your garden and everything.

So that's your domain. But for many men, they would leave work and the home is not their domain. 

Jamie Durie: Mm. 

Jean Kittson: It's like they're an alien in that environment because that's been the woman's domain and she's taking care of it. But you are, you are lucky because that's so familiar to you. And you have so much input in it.

Jamie Durie: Mm. 

Jean Kittson: In fact, you're probably, it's probably your domain more than anything. 

Jamie Durie: I have a little too much input! And, so much so that, you know, we have to remind each other because Ameka loves interior design and so I've had to kinda let go a little bit and let her, you know, play with the interiors and all that, and she's done a great job. 

And, you know we have found a good niche in each other's careers because of that. I think you gotta, you know, make everyone feel like they're part of the end equation, you know? 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, 

Jamie Durie: yeah. 

Jean Kittson: Well, well, growing up, my dad was a DIY so he had a big –– he, you know, he basically built our house.

You know. Nothing ever worked, but, you know, we had seven doors opening onto the loungeroom, I think. But he was as much part of the domestic life…

Jamie Durie: yeah. 

Jean Kittson: …as, as my mother was. 

Zac Seidler: I just don't, I don't buy it that these rules and regulations that have been passed down by someone that we're not really aware of around what women should do and what men should do.

You know, Venus and Mars, it just doesn't benefit anybody. 

Jean Kittson: No… 

Zac Seidler: …and this is the thing. There are some people who are just gonna be better at certain things. And, you know, my wife is much better with a drill than I am. 

Jean Kittson: That's right! 

Zac Seidler: Give up. Yep. Like I've, I've worked it out…

Jamie Durie: Good on ya’ mate! 

I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna attempt it in the way that she does.

I'm lefthanded. I'm probably gonna cut off a finger. I'm gonna let her have her day. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. With a drill. He's gonna cut off a finger! Yeah. I like that. 

Jean Kittson: Okay. Hello. 

 Jamie Durie: He really doesn't use tools. 

Jean Kittson: Well picked up. 

Zac Seidler: You got it. You got it. Live and learn!

Jamie Durie: I gotta ask, Zac, you know, we, mental health of course is a huge part of our, elongating our lives, right. And I have to ask, what role does stress have in that? And also what role does the foods that we eat play into the health of our minds and our bodies? 

Zac Seidler: Well, I think that we went through a period, you know, early on in the 20th century where we started to split the mind and the body, and that was not a smart move.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: And we are very much ricocheting back away from that and realising that everything needs to be calibrated, and they all affect one another in a cause-and-effect kind of way. That's why everyone, any psychologist worth their salt will bang on first and foremost about sleep and diet…

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: …and exercise. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …really. And it's funny because they're like, oh no, I just wanna talk about my feelings. And I'm like, no, if you don't get this stuff in order, there is no point in getting into the deeper stuff because this is going to create the foundations of wellbeing for you. 

 Jamie Durie: That's right.

 Zac Seidler: Fundamentally, the fuel that you are putting in – and fuel comes through sleep, through exercise, through diet, and nutrition. And I think that we are at a point because of cost of living stuff, especially… 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …where everyone is, is trying to make their way and, and survive as best they can. And because of time and work and families, food just kind of drops off.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler:  And so it becomes easier to do, you know, quickfire meals that are probably much worse for you. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: Whether it's sodium or sugar or whatever it is. And that has a fundamental effect on your sleep. It has a fundamental effect on your mood. And really the more stressed you are, the more calorie rich food you kind of end up wanting.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: Whenever you've had a tough day, you're gonna go for the chocolate because you’re like trying to manage… 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: …and so trying to get ahead of that stuff. By building in… You know, I'm a very ritualised person because if I… you know, Obama and Steve Jobs, all these people, they always talk about trying to get rid of the grey in your day, which is like, Steve Jobs wore the same thing every day because he wanted to think about something else… 

Jean Kittson: right?

Zac Seidler: …I've eaten the same breakfast and lunch pretty much every day for 20 years because I have other things to deal with and it's the best way that I'm gonna go to the shops and I'm gonna ensure that I have a nutritious meal. Because I'm doing the same thing and everyone goes, don't you get bored?

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

 Zac Seidler: And I go, well, I'm still alive, so no, I'm alright. 

Jamie Durie: Steve, I heard a Steve Jobs statement the other day and you don't often hear him, speak in this way, but he said, make food your medicine or medicine will be your food. 

Jean Kittson: Oh…

Jamie Durie: …isn't that an awesome statement? 

Jean Kittson: …Clever. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. And I've not heard that before.

And then I started looking into some of his interviews in more detail. Do you know that none of his kids had devices? 

Zac Seidler: None. None. No one who owns a tech company, their kids never touch devices. Full stop. 

Jamie Durie: That's, that says it right there, right? 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: I mean, I wrote a book years ago, and it was called Outdoor Kids and it was about getting kids off TV games and devices and back out into the garden again, where I grew up.

Zac Seidler: Mm-hmm. 

Jamie Durie: And I find that when I'm, I'm suffering stress or anxiety. I put my hands into the earth and I start weeding or planting or whatever, and suddenly within an hour or two, I'm back. I'm, I feel earthed, I feel… . 

Jean Kittson: …Grounded?  

Jamie Durie: I feel grounded and I've let go of all that stress into the earth. And there's a theory now about forest bathing.

Zac Seidler: Mm-hmm. 

Jamie Durie: Which I'm sure you've heard about where, you know, you can go on a trip to Japan and walk through the forest for a minimum of four hours per day for two weeks, and it improves your immune system and helps fight tumors and infections and things and adds so much to your mental health that, and I think we're now just discovering the benefits that nature has, that plays within our health. 

Zac Seidler: Well, we're trying to create science around something that is obvious. Which is, which is the thing, we've created all of this infrastructure that is actually ruining our lives, and now we're trying to peel it back and go back to basics, which is, you know, the, back in my day, we used to play on the street and would hang around with different generations of kids and do all that stuff.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And now you know, the fog is really what you're… it descends from the phones. That's the iPads and the television. It's this notion of… 

Jamie Durie: yeah. 

Zac Seidler: …detachment from who you are and who you want to be. And we see this with young kids, the longer they spend on social media, the more they are unable to actually access their own wants and needs.

Because… 

Jamie Durie: …they're the less functional they are when they get out into the real workplace as well. 

Zac Seidler: Fundamentally. It takes, so it takes so much time to relearn these things. 

Jamie Durie: There was a professor that wrote a book called ‘The last child in the woods’.

You know, I developed this theory called the outdoor room, where you would convert your kitchen into an outdoor space, your living room, into an outdoor space, your bathroom, your bedroom, so that everything was connected to nature and you would spend more time out outdoors, being reconnected with nature through your everyday functions.

Jean Kittson: Beautiful.

Jamie Durie: And I used to talk about this, like, let's take the roof off our house, and then instill plants into our everyday lives. Think of your backyard like that. And that was what I used to model the outdoor room theory on. Now I want to take this to another level where we talk about, you know, health and wellbeing and fitness and how do we take exercise into the outdoors?

How do we, how do we then start to, you know, control the food that goes into our children's mouths and our family's mouths, reduce pesticides and herbicides, get rid of glyphosates. What role does that play into keeping our bodies healthy enough, to be able to withstand stressful times and so forth, you know?

 Zac Seidler: Mm-hmm. 

Jamie Durie: … there been any studies within your funding groups…? 

Zac Seidler: …yeah… 

Jamie Durie: …in the past where, you've seen a direct correlation between stress and the increase of disease and poor health? 

Zac Seidler: Oh, yeah. It's the strongest causation you can possibly find, right. It drives cancer, it drives heart disease, it drives stroke.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: You know, fundamentally the more stressful your life is, the more cortisol you've got running through your veins. The lower your life expectancy is. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. And, and I used to live off stress, like… 

 Jean Kittson: …the adrenaline. Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: ... that adrenaline rush… I loved it. I loved, you know, and the, and oh, we may not get this garden done on time or, you know, or I may not get this project finished in time.

Like, and so, the older I get, the more I realised, wow, this is not the goal. The goal is to minimise stress down to zero. And that's the only way we're gonna maintain strong health. 

Zac Seidler: And how we respond to stress….

Jamie Durie: Yes. 

Zac Seidler: …Like the more stress you have, the worse you are at responding to it. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And that's why you see lots of guys who are just like exploding because they just don't how to regulate that stuff because they don't have the energy. They don't have the coping mechanisms, they don't have the people to call on. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: But the more you realise what it is… There's so many guys I talk to and I, I go, do you get stressed about things? And they're like, no, I, I've never felt anxiety before. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And they're sitting there and their leg is shaking.

Jean Kittson: Yeah, yeah. 

Zac Seidler: I'm like, they're…

Jean Kittson: …can’t articulate it… 

Zac Seidler: They’re so detached from their own reality. 

 Jean Kittson: …can’t articulate it… Oh, they're, detached… 

Zac Seidler: …exactly…Yeah. And so being able to get to the point where we realise and we're not afraid of stress because there is a certain amount of it that actually leads to better performance. You know, this effect of going into an exam, if you don't have a bit of butterflies… you know they're useful sometimes.

Jean Kittson: Of course it focuses you… 

Zac Seidler: before a performance, it's good. 

But then it's called the ‘yerkes-dodson curve’, which is, it goes up, and your performance goes up, you’ve got a bit of nerves, it's pretty good for you. You hit this precipice, and the second you go past that. You suddenly can't see. You're in an exam. You can't think straight. You're in front of camera and you lose your words. 

Jamie Durie: Mm-hmm. 

Zac Seidler: That's when stress is tipped over and that's when… A little bit is good at getting you out of bed, getting you going. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: Because you're excited. You know, excitement and anxiety can go hand in hand. But there's just a little bit that is good, and then too much that really has long-term effects on you.

Jamie Durie: Mm-hmm. 

Zac Seidler: Yeah. 

Jamie Durie: Mm-hmm. 

Jean Kittson: What do you say to men who, maybe you have lived on adrenaline and have had all this pressure and all this stress, and then suddenly it stops, and then that withdrawal from the adrenaline. How do you manage that suddenly, do people find another stress to fill it, fill up that adrenaline?

What do they do when they're suddenly taken away? Is it like a void or a vacuum? Or…? 

Zac Seidler: It can be, it can be very difficult. You know, no doubt, Jamie, when you moved past that and you had a moment of pause and were like looking back at those years and realising how overwhelmed you probably were, and constantly going and churning your… everything kind of just becomes this, this muscle that is moving towards survival. 

And when you realise that you're actually not enjoying anything, that you're not in the moment at all, lots of those guys – and that often happens much later on in life because they keep going until they run out of steam. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And then there's this vacuum, there's this, this hole underneath them, and they don't have the skills to be able to pick up new things and fill that.

Jamie Durie: Yep. 

Zac Seidler: You know, in some ways… So we want to get to the point where guys are realising, are connecting with that feeling within themselves that maybe the past 2, 3, 4 weeks have been really full on… 

Jamie Durie: Mm-hmm. 

Zac Seidler: …And having the language to be able to say to someone, I need to pause here. I need to realise, I need to recalibrate. I need to work out what's happening. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wish someone had told me at 21 that stress was so destructive. Because I think that's something, you know, I've learned over, over time and I've watched some of my friends go into poor health, through, you know, their lack of dealing with stress.

Zac Seidler: Yeah…. 

Jamie Durie: But 

Zac Seidler: We need the skills. We need the skills. At school, you should be teaching stress reduction, you know? 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, 

Jean Kittson: exactly. I have a friend who does mindfulness, part of her lessons, so she senses – she's a drama teacher of course – and you know my age, so we have the experience and we can look back and go, this stress we put on our children is just way too much.

So she senses a class is really stressed. She won't do a normal lesson, she'll just relax them. 

 Zac Seidler: Nice. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: Which is a really, you know, but that she's rare, but this is what we should be doing and… 

Jamie Durie: …yeah… 

Jean Kittson: …And I think we've got, we are at our age, we've got this… Not our age, I'm older than you, Jamie! But you know, as you get older, we've got the skills.

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: We've got the experience to be able to say how, what's important in life. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: And you talking about in… in my day, we'd hug trees and it was sort of like a bit of a joke, but it was. A really beautiful thing to do. 

Jamie Durie: Yes. 

Jean Kittson: I do it outside the studio before I come in. There's some really old paper barks, you know, there, they, they must be a hundred years old. Did you notice them coming in?

Jamie Durie:  I know they're, they're all through this area. Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: They're incredible. And they're growing out of asphalt and I always give them a bit of a hug, and go, Good on you… 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: …I don't know how you've survived! And it just, that moment of connection with nature and you just have to value that and recognise it and thank nature for what it does, because as you say, all this technology, if you are going straight from an office back home to the telly or something… 

Jamie Durie: …It's incredible how well they survive, by the way, these paperbacks in these streets.

Jean Kittson: …Aren’t they amazing. 

Jamie Durie: You're right, the pathways go right up to them, and you would think that the soils would become anaerobic, but Melaleuca quinquenervia – our paper bark tree is – is probably one of the most stoic trees in our system and our indigenous use the bark to wrap their fish and their food up and they would cook their food wrapped in the paper bark. Right? 

And it's got so many brilliant uses, but they've also got nitrogen fixing nodules and a whole range of survival techniques that other non-native trees don't have. So, you know, one of my pet hates is why did we, why are we planting London Plane trees, platanus hybrida, are all through our streets, which, which are, you know…

 Zac Seidler: …Causes us asthma…

Jamie Durie: So, yeah. Causes asthma, gives us all hay fever – I get hay fever from them – when we could be planting these native trees that require zero care and they still thrive their heads off, you know. 

Zac Seidler: Finally, the paperback chat we all needed. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. That's what we needed. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Jean Kittson: If only we, you know, treated ourselves like a paper bark, if we had nitrogen nodules, you know?

Jamie Durie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Jean Kittson: I mean, if we understood ourselves, when you talk about trees and plants like this and your knowledge of them and how they, how they exist and how they, you know, how they grow. We need that knowledge about ourselves. From a very early age. 

Jamie Durie: That's right. 

Jean Kittson: So we can recognise what we need to do…

Jamie Durie: Yeah.

Zac Seidler: So that we can enjoy. And this is the thing, it's, you are not going to gain that knowledge from a standing start in your 60s. 

Jamie Durie: No, that's right. 

Zac Seidler: You need to, it needs to be a lifelong lesson of what matters to me. How am I moving through the world? How do I grow? How am I going to understand how I tick?

And those things cannot come when you retire. 

Jamie Durie: That's right. That's right. 

Zac Seidler: They need, they need to come much earlier on and they need to be instilled so that we're not just churning our way, you know, to the end. 

Jamie Durie: You're right, it's that evolution.

It's those, it's the teaching, it's the experience. It's falling down, picking yourself up again. It's making all those mistakes and then coming full circle into where we are today and, and then passing down some of those learnings, to as many people as you can. That's what it's all about. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, definitely. That's our responsibility, isn't it, as we get older, is to share what we've learned. 

Jamie Durie: Yep. 

Jean Kittson: And hope that our children or grandchildren don't make the same mistakes. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: So, Jamie, what would you say to someone who was maybe hitting their 50s and feeling like they're winding down or they're stuck or something, or, I mean, you just took that huge leap in your 20s to do horticulture…

Jamie Durie: Yes. 

Jean Kittson: … While you were doing something completely different, the dancing.  

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yeah.

Jean Kittson: So what, what would you say to, have you got any friends who you feel are stuck or… 

Jamie Durie: I, yeah, I have and I say the same thing to all of them. Find something that you are passionate about. Dive into it. Learn, feed your brain.

You know, make yourself get engaged in it because it will provide you with the fuel that you need to push you well into your retirement and way past that. And I don't like to use the word retirement because I'm never gonna retire. I've decided I'm just gonna keep working because I love my work.

But find what it is you're passionate about and learn more and feed your brain. And it's funny, if it's benefiting other people, you will also find another way to keep energy within yourself. 

So don't just feed yourself. Find something that feeds other people in other communities and there's a sense of worthiness around what it is that you are doing that makes you feel good about your day and what you've learned and how you've passed it on.

Jean Kittson: Just to wrap up, what would your tip be to people over 50 who feel perhaps a bit, a bit stuck? What's one habit, do you think, they could in… because we're talking about you have to do it regularly and, and institute it as a part of your everyday routines.

What, is there one habit? 

Zac Seidler: It is funny that I very much, hopefully, look like I’m not in my 50s, but I spend a lot of time with men in their 50s and and 60s and do clinical work with them and research with them because they are hungry, and they're looking for ways to improve the rest of their lives and seek understanding about themselves.

And I kind of say the same thing, which I've been talking to Jamie about, which is pick up the phone and call someone. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. Yeah. There you go. 

Zac Seidler: Reach out. Lean out. And it doesn't need to be a mental health conversation. It doesn't need to be something that's weird and awkward. It's just like, let's go for coffee, let's go for a walk.

Jamie Durie: Yeah.

Zac Seidler:  Let's do this thing called life together. And when you're finding that passion, that comes through other people… I went to a dinner party when I was 18 and someone started to talk to me about masculinity. And I was like, what? What are we talking about here? And then they connected me with someone else and slowly but surely doors opened.

And your life opens, and there is no end point to learning. There is no end point to interest, to passion to drive. So, yeah, I think that realising, firstly, that you are stuck does not mean failure. Understanding that you're at an inflection point and there is now heaps of opportunity and potential for doing something different. 

Jamie Durie: Yeah. 

Zac Seidler: And that is a beautiful thing that we have, which is that there is always this splay of choices in front of us. And so start choosing. 

Jean Kittson: Just be curious. Start choosing. 

Jamie Durie: Yep. 

Jean Kittson: Can't go wrong. You can't make a mistake. Thank you both so much. That was such a great conversation.

Thank you, Jamie Durie. 

Jamie Durie: My pleasure. Yeah, my pleasure.

Jean Kittson: Thank you, Dr Zac Seidler. Thank you very much. 

Zac Seidler: Thanks for having me.

Jean Kittson: That was really great. Thanks for being so open. 

Jamie Durie: Great fun. 

Jean Kittson: Thank you to Jamie Durie and Dr Zac Seidler. 

You've been listening to DARE: The time of your life, brought to you by Australian seniors.

Please leave a review and share this show with someone you know or plenty of people you know, even better. 

Visit seniors.com au/podcast for more episodes. 

I'm Jean Kittson. Thanks for listening, and remember, it's your time, so dare to make it count. Go for it.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

SERIES 7: Better With Age. 

It takes courage to reinvent yourself professionally, yet it becomes a necessity for many people over 50. Bestselling author Kathy Lette and publishing exec Jane Curry share their hilarious experiences of pushing through career blocks and tiresome ageing stereotypes. 

Brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA.

Join Jean Kittson for the seventh season of DARE: The Time of Your Life (formerly Life’s Booming), called Better With Age. 

Australians are actually living longer, healthier lives, and reshaping what older looks like. So in this series, we are chatting with over 50s who are rewriting the ageing rule book, from career pivots to second acts. 

This episode celebrates the Reinvention Generation, and explores how we can continue to push through career blocks and debunk tiresome stereotypes as we age. Is it because that's just how we're wired? Or is it to prove that our best work is still ahead?

Kathy Lette is an internationally bestselling author of more than 20 books, which have been translated into 20 languages. Her latest bestselling book, The Sisterhood Rules, takes readers on a rollercoaster ride that proves that from pain comes healing, from honesty comes forgiveness, and that nothing is more important than your sisters.

Jane Curry is a highly experienced publishing executive, and managing director of Simon and Schuster, Australia and New Zealand. Jane is also the founder of Ventura Press, which she established to champion older female (and male) authors.

Watch DARE: The Time of Your Life on YouTube   

Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Apple Podcasts 

Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Spotify 

For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency

--

TRANSCRIPT

Jean Kittson: Welcome to a new season of DARE: The Time of Your Life, formerly Life’s Booming, brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA.

Hello I'm Jean Kittson, and this season is called Better With Age. We're flipping the script and showing how ageing is NOT a dirty word, rather it’s your time to live your life to its fullest.

Australians are actually living longer, healthier lives, and reshaping what older looks like. So in this series, we are chatting with over 50s who are rewriting the ageing rule book, from career pivots to second acts.

This episode celebrates the Reinvention Generation, and explores how we can continue to push through career blocks and debunk tiresome stereotypes as we age. Is it because that's just how we're wired? Or is it to prove that our best work is still ahead?

To help us answer such questions is Jane Curry, a highly experienced publishing executive and newly-appointed managing director of Simon and Schuster, Australia and New Zealand.

Jane is also the founder of Ventura Press, a company she started as a way of championing older female authors, many of whom only turned to writing later in life.

And joining Jane is the fabulous author and beloved friend Kathy Lette. Her career has pushed boundaries from the get go, when she left school at 16 to write her debut novel, Puberty Blues. It had parents wringing their hands while teens lapped it up. And it was later turned into a movie and a TV series.

She's gone on to pen more than 20 bestselling books, including her latest, the Sisterhood Rules, which has topped bestseller lists worldwide, and it's funny, fabulous and always empowering.

Jane, Kathy, it's wonderful to have you both in the studio to speak about yourselves and your work.

Kathy Lette: …and about you and your amazing work and your incredible life.

Jean Kittson: Oh, do go on!

Kathy Lette: My comic goddess right here before us, Jean. Jean's broken so many boundaries with her comedy.

Jean Kittson: Oh Kathy, you’re amazing, and she's a long, long time beloved friend. And as you, in your words, you are my human wonder bra…

Kathy Lette: …uplifting and supportive. I'd also say we are each other's big pair of knickers. We've got our asses covered.

Jean Kittson: Mm-hmm. That's right. I can always, I mean, Kathy's the best friend you could possibly have. And don’t we all need…

Kathy Lette: …Ditto.

Jane Curry: …Don’t we all need female friendships, they keep us all going.

Jean Kittson: You, Kathy.

Kathy Lette: Yes.

Jean Kittson: On a more serious note about, you have covered, you have written about all aspects of life from puberty to marriage, childbirth, menopause.

Often based on your own experiences, you've inspired and entertained and soothed millions of readers, including your latest book, the Sisterhood Rules, which I absolutely love and should be a manual for any woman breaking up or any older woman wanting a bit of spice in her life, really.

Kathy Lette: Haha, great, ha ha.

Jean Kittson: But, um, when your previous publishers said to you.

That nobody wants to read about middle-aged women. And they dropped you after 19 books in 17 languages.

Kathy Lette: Yes.

Jean Kittson: Bestsellers.

Kathy Lette: Mm-hmm.

Jean Kittson: And you went on to write the Revenge Club, another bestseller. I mean, how did you do that?

Kathy Lette: I went to see my agent and said, I wanna write a book about four middle-aged women who take revenge on the men who've sidelined them and ruined their careers.

And he was like, yeah, I dunno. Yeah, middle-aged women just aren't that sexy. And then I went to see my publisher at the time and my publisher was like, Hmm, middle-aged women. We know they exist, but nobody wants to go there.

Jane Curry: Oh my goodness.

Kathy Lette: And I looked at books written about women my age, like Anita Brooklyn novels, for example.

And there was about sad, depressed, lonely women who wilt away and die in their flats and get eaten by their cats. Now I don't know any women like that. All my women friends are like Jean. They're swinging off a chandelier with a cocktail between their teeth. But when they, when they first said that to me, then my publisher dropped me.

I thought, gosh, maybe I have passed my amuse-by date. And just for a moment, I did, I did have a real crisis of confidence. But then of course I'm an Aussie girl and we, Aussie girls are made of stern stuff

Jane Curry: Dig deep.

Kathy Lette: So I thought, nah, he's wrong. They're both wrong. So I got a new, I got a gay agent and I got a new publisher, Bloomsbury, and the book went to number-one on the bestseller list, which was the best revenge. It's called the Revenge Club – success! 

So yeah, it was so exciting. And also, I love writing about women this age because our hinterland is huge. You know, we've had the marriages, the divorces, the breakups, the promotions, the back stabs. We've raised the kids.

We've looked after our aged parents as Jean did so, so devotedly. We've got so much to talk about and so much to share, and so much wisdom. Just at the time, society hands us the old invisibility cloak and puts us out to career pasture. It's not just me imagining that we, women my age, are given the cloak of invisibility.

A few years ago, MI5 said they wanted to hire middle-aged women as spies because nobody sees us.

Jean Kittson: Oh.

Kathy Lette: Soak that up. And I remember the governor of the board of the Bank of England. He said, not long ago, that the economy was going through a menopausal phase. Sluggish.

Jean Kittson: Oh.

Kathy Lette: And I was like, tell that to Oprah Winfrey and Nicole Kidman, and Cate Blanchett…

Jane Curry: Michelle Obama…

Kathy Lette: …all the other people. Michelle Obama, all these other menopausal and postmenopausal women. So the sexism is sewn into our psyche. We really have to fight hard against that.

And thanks to Jean and others of our generation. We've taken the stigma out of menopause. But the next big feminist hurdle for us is sexist ageism, because we get treated in a different way to men our age and, and we really have to rail against it. Because we're now prime, we're in the peak of our productivity.

Jane Curry: But also we've all had to witness when the BAFTAs was on, every time we see these women who are completely transformed because they're not allowed to age in public.

Kathy Lette: Mm.

Jane Curry: So that's the standard. Yes. I mean, we are fortunate in where we're in the book business, so it's brain first in our business and always has been.

Kathy Lette: Better to be witty than pretty.

Jane Curry: Yeah, yeah – witty than pretty.

And I remember a friend of mine who is actually a cosmetic surgeon, he said to me that it, you know, it's the women who are, have always been beautiful, that have had that sense of power when they walk into a room and they turn heads because of their beauty, they're the ones that find it harder to age.

Kathy Lette: Well, it's a diminishing asset.

Jane Curry: Yes. So whereas, you know, when you're in the book business as I've been, and Kathy, the entertainment book, um, you know, women of letters, we do have that our brain is our superpower.

Kathy Lette: Yeah, yeah.

Jane Curry: And then what we look like comes after that. Yes.

Jean Kittson: It's hard to fight it though, isn't it?

Kathy Lette: It is hard to fight it,

Jean Kittson: …especially when you are performing and…

Jane Curry: Oh yes. Well, in this new job I've just got, I got tapped on the shoulder to run Simon Schuster. So the first thing I found was all the, the settings on Zoom and teams. Because I’m reporting to the UK and I'm having meetings in the US all the time and sometimes I first thing in the morning, like 7.30 in the morning.

So I'm like, where's the filter.

Jean Kittson: Where’s the sparkle wand!

Jane Curry: You know, we used to laugh when I worked at Macmillan. You know, we used, you know, there's fabulous filters that Jackie Collins had on all their photographs.

Kathy Lette: Oh my gosh, yes. In fact, I've had lunch with Jackie Collins a few times with Joan Collins. Joan and Jackie, I mean, the double whammy.

Jean Kittson: Yes.

Jane Curry: Talk about sisterhood.

Kathy Lette: Sensational broads. But, um, Joan Collins will move everybody around the table till she's got the right lighting. And isn't she clever? You know that when you do, when you're filming, they have that big silver thing that reflects the [light], why can't we have a dress made out of that?

Jean Kittson: Well, why can't we!

Kathy Lette: Or shoes?

Jean Kittson: Because we don't care, Kathy. We don't care.

Kathy Lette: We don't care.

Jane Curry: Often we’re rushing from one thing to the next.

Kathy Lette: Don't care. We don't care. But Jean, see, Jean and I don't do, don’t do any of that Botoxing stuff.

Jane Curry: No. Nor do I.

Kathy Lette: I think men should just read between my lines, the books, the babies, the hours of fun-loving flirtation.

But it does get hard to resist it whenever all the other women…

Jane Curry: …I think that's the thing when…

Kathy Lette: …look much younger

Jane Curry: that, right, what they call in the, you know, in data they call it benchmarking. So like any set of data figures in my world, you know, you benchmark against what was the bestseller. And so it's sort of benchmarking when you're talking about sales and all of that.

But it's benchmarking with what we look like. So you sort of benchmark against, we, I think we're very critical of ourselves, because you look at another woman who's the same age and they've had the facelift and they've had everything done. And then look, I momentarily worry about it. And then honestly, you, I look at my to-do list and I think, no.

Jean Kittson: Yeah, and I've got two daughters, so I don't want to be that role model. I've always said it's not what you look like, it's what you feel like, you know?

Kathy Lette: Yes. Keep the lights low. Greatest beauty aid known to woman for all time. You know, what's happened in Hollywood, the pediatric, um, technicians there. The doctors noticed that the babies were not hitting their developmental milestones.

And they were saying, is it because they're, they're having too much, um, carcinogens in their smoked salmon? I'm thinking, no, it's Botox. Because babies look at your face, like when you go, I love your little baby. The baby goes and you go, ah…

If you've had Botox and you're going, ‘I love you’, and the baby's going, ‘uh’, you’re going, ‘uh’. They're not learning anything.

Jean Kittson: Absolutely.

Jean Kittson: You should write a research paper on that. They should do it.

Kathy Lette: This is hysterical, isn't it? I know.

Jean Kittson: I was told not to go, I mean. Not to go grey because I wouldn't, in the gig economy, I wouldn't get work.

Apparently the research shows that if you, that men don't like actually working with women with grey hair.

Kathy Lette: …Because it reminds them of their mothers, is it?

Jean Kittson: …Maybe they feel that they…

Kathy Lette: …it's ageing them…

Jean Kittson: Have to defer or - No, not defer…

Kathy Lette: …but they can have grey hair.

Jean Kittson: They can have grey hair. So there are some interesting facts their.

Kathy Lette: I was gonna say, part of the problem is that we never see women who look like us. 85% of people on British and Australian television over 50 are men. So the women just get immediately sidelined and put out to career pasture when they get one grey hair and one wrinkle.

We should be saying, we wanna see ourselves reflected. Don't, don't disappear us.

Jean Kittson: You know, Jane, you would see, um, this in the industry. You've seen this before. What happened to Kathy? Have you?

Jane Curry: Oh, yes, because a lot of decisions are made on data. You know, they'll say, oh, and particularly I think people got very frightened when social media arrived.

They got very frightened that they had to chase people with massive Instagram following. Oh, yes. And then there was this sort of Sally Rooney phenomena where everybody wanted a ‘Normal People’. And that was that emerging, you know,

Kathy Lette: Irish writers…

Jane Curry: …Irish and, and all that sort of coming of age story that, and we are, we are just, we move as a pack, the publishing industry. So once there's one Normal People, you can guarantee the next year there'll be 10 Normal People. And that's a book for people that haven't read it, that was published by Sally Rooney. It was a debut novel and you know, it was one of the zeitgeist novels.

Kathy Lette: She became a publishing phenomenon.

Jean Kittson: In terms of ageism in comedy, it's just a general feeling that I think women, first of all, women in comedy has been really hard from the start and you really have to push and it's a much more sort of natural environment for men because they're confident and some, some comedians can go on and and not even have thought about what they're going to say, they're just so confident.

Kathy Lette: Yeah.

Jean Kittson: When I was starting out in comedy, I would be starting out with other, the few women that were around in the 80s and we'd be in pubs and we'd go on stage and everyone would be drinking and eating their pizza, and no one would listen and the women would come off and going, oh my God, I'm just not funny. I haven't got good material. I stink. I can't do this.

The men would go out there and they would get exactly the same reaction. People are just drinking and they'd come back and they'd go, that audience wouldn't know a joke if it was up them. They're just so freaking hopeless, and they'd just blame the audience and women would blame themselves, and I don't know where that comes from, but I think it can become more pronounced as you get older and there's slowly, more and more diminishing things that happen to you

Like walking into a butcher and the butcher saying, hello, young lady, and you think I'm too, I'm too young to be called a young lady. You know, I not old enough. That's something that they would say to your grandmother, Hello, young lady, and expect you to like that. Expect it to be a compli––

Jane Curry: …A pat on the head.

Jean Kittson: …Yeah, a pat. It's so patronising.

Kathy Lette: Yeah. There's also this, it's an inbuilt prejudice against women that were not funny, and I, I was at a dinner party in London once and, and the hostess made a really good joke and the husband and men didn't pay any attention. The husband just went, oh, you know, embarrassing women can't tell jokes.

And I was like, that's because we marry them. It made everybody laugh at him and that did take away his power.

So just lean into that, that verbal ability that women have, you know, we’re more verbally dexterous. So use it like, develop what I call the black belt and tongue-fu! Quiplash, you know!

Jean Kittson: Yeah, that's fantastic. Don't censor. Good comeback.

Kathy Lette: Yes. Yeah. Good comeback.

Jean Kittson: I know, I think we are getting stronger and we shouldn't, we shouldn't, um, suppress our strength as we probably have to keep peace, you know, with the family. That's right. With our work to balance everything. Yeah. You suppress a lot of who you are.

Jane Curry: My eldest always says to me. Mum, you're overthinking. And that's the best mental health advice or whatever we do. We do overthink,

Kathy Lette: But I think women should just or never go… You're underdressed if you go out at night without a couple of good one-liners tucked up your trouser leg.

Jane Curry: That's really good advice.

Kathy Lette: Because if, if you whack it back…

Jane Curry: yes,

Kathy Lette: …and make other people laugh at them, you completely take away their power.

Jean Kittson: Well, you've got so many good one-liners, so you're like a one-liner factory.

Jane Curry: I've got, I've gotta lift my game.

Jean Kittson: Ah, yeah, exactly. So do I. 

So when your publishers said that ridiculous thing that nobody wants to read about middle aged women…

Kathy Lette: …mm-hmm…

Jean Kittson: Did you ever doubt yourself and think that I might have to reinvent myself in any way?

Kathy Lette: I did. I, just for a moment, I lost confidence and I thought maybe I have passed my amuse-by-date. But then I looked around at my own female friends and I thought, they're so wonderful. They're all, you know, swinging off a chandelier with a toyboy between their teeth. I wanna write about these women.

But I think as a writer, I'm always reinventing because I cannibalise my own life. My mother's a teacher and I think I've got a bit of her teacher gene that I always write the book I wish I'd had when I was going through something. So from, to the girls in Puberty Blues, you know, to teach them that they were more than a life support system to, to a pair of breasts, you know, to girls dating and, and then to motherhood and, and marriage and divorce and menopause, and raising an autistic child, raising a teenager, you know, now this post-menopausal second act.

So I'm always reinventing because I'm, I'm changing. You know, women are used to change. We've got so much change going on in our lives. So, yeah, I think it comes naturally to women. So if you are reinventing yourself post menopause, you know, it's just, it's almost like situation normal. We're always constantly changing.

And even divorce, I don't see divorce as a failure. I just see it as a change.

Jean Kittson: Yes.

Kathy Lette: You know, life is long from honeymoon to tomb to be like 80 years so, just if you need to reinvent, you know it's okay, and it comes more naturally to women. So don't be afraid of change. Change is good. But I would say women this age, this is a coming of age time.

Jane Curry: Yes.

Kathy Lette: Because we're the first generation who are economically independent. We've got the, the rock of fuel of HRT, we've got the chutzpah and the the courage to say what we are thinking. We are reinventing ourselves, having a sensational second act.

Because I always say this time of your life, for women, is the best because post menopause, you know, you've, you've got no, you don't have to worry about period cramps or pregnancy scares. You've got all that tampon money to spend, you know…

Jean Kittson: …and kids are grown up. You've got all that crystallised experience, as they call it.

Kathy Lette: Yeah. I wanna know what you think of this, Jane. Because I accidentally invented – I hate the term – chick lit…

Jane Curry: …I know what you're going to say…

Kathy Lette: …I accidentally invented it in the 70s with Puberty Blues..

Jane Curry: Yes. Yes. Chook-lit.

Kathy Lette: And then, then when I wrote Mad Cows and Fetal Attraction, I sort of invented Mummy-Lit.

Jane Curry: Mm-hmm.

Kathy Lette: And then when I wrote Nip and Tuck, that was nip-lit. And I'm like, I need a new genre for women our age. And I, and I thought, well, post 50, you get that fabulous, ‘Oh, feck it I'm 50’ gene, where you no longer care what people think about you. So I was thinking. What about, I-don't-give-a-s***-lit? Mm-hmm.

Jane Curry: That's brilliant.

Jean Kittson: Oh, good. You got the tick from a publisher!

Kathy Lette: Wouldn't that be a good. And imagine we’re at Booker Prize and they go, ‘And now in the genre of I-don't-give-a -s***-lit. Yeah.

Jane Curry: You know, in Hollywood, all the entertainment [industry] is catching. If you think of the Thursday murder club, that was Richard Osmond, of course, he's an older man, so he can get away with it. But you know, the adaptation with Helen Mirren and you know, those amazing actors. So

Kathy Lette: Yes

Jane Curry: So there is starting to be balanced…

Kathy Lette: But that's even older.

That's, that's when they're in the retirement home. I'm talking about this moment. Yeah, just postmenopausal, where we're the publishers are saying it's not sexy, it's not attractive. It's right when you're older, for some reason there's a jump to the Judi Dench.

Jane Curry: It’s called the silver dollar then.

Kathy Lette: Yeah.

Jean Kittson: Oh yes. The silver dollar.

Kathy Lette: Well, what about the postmenopausal dollar? Yes. You know who thinks reading books? It's women our age.

Jane Curry: Well, actually, I always say to any publisher, go to a writer's festival. It's all women, of a certain age. Our age

Jean Kittson: Over 50.

Jane Curry: Over 50. Yeah, filling the audience.

Jean Kittson: Yes,

Kathy Lette: I'm on book tour right now for the sisterhood rules and I'm going around the country.

It's been to Perth. I've been doing them in Sydney and Melbourne, and I'm about to go up, up to Queensland and I meet, I get to meet the readers, which is so fabulous. It's my favorite thing. Wonderful. And they're, they're women of a certain age. They bring me up little, little kind of anecdotal, doggy bags, a little story they've saved up for me about who their husband had an affair with or how they got revenge or whatever it is.

And they're so funny and they sometimes they cry as well. Yeah. They'll have a cry and they'll tell me something very personal that's happened to them. And we have a hug and they're all so interesting. I wanna go out on a girl's night out with all of them all the time.

Jane Curry: Yes, we be…

Kathy Lette: …and yet they're written off.

Jane Curry: Yeah, I was thinking a lot about it getting ready this morning and yeah, as, as you get older, you look back at how society's structured and it is so sort of primally structured around power and money and…

Kathy Lette: …which has predominantly been male…

Jane Curry: …which is predominantly male. So I've, so then I thought, so you've got, as a woman, you've got two ways of doing that.

You can either become, marry into that and become the trophy wife and be terrified that they're going to leave you. So there's that way of attaching yourself to money or there's the other way of doing it, which is the way I did it, was to make it yourself.

Kathy Lette: Yes, exactly. So always a better option.

Jane Curry: So that was my option.

So that's why I've sort of admired those other women from afar because I've never been part of their world. Even at university, I was never part of that world. I, we as, women, have to decide very early on, I think it's innate, I don’t know whether you make an actual decision, how you're gonna fit around that, those two binaries, power and money.

But as women. It's not naturally given to us. So we have to decide. Even in the corporate world, that means we've got to constantly keep up with that.

Kathy Lette: …Appearances.

Jane Curry: …Appearances or…

Kathy Lette: …Trophy mustn't be tarnished.

Jean Kittson: Well, that's right. That's right. It's a big role to fill for the whole of your life.

Trying to live up to that. Yeah. Sorry. There was a billboard saying, um, many years ago, which was a brilliant billboard saying, which I had a picture of a young woman, don't marry a millionaire. Become a millionaire.

Kathy Lette: But when I, when I give talks in schools to girls, which I do often, I always say to them, choose your partner carefully.

Because if you wanna be an alpha, alpha female in having a big career, if you choose an alpha man, guess who's gonna be the one who has to pull back when the child's sick or whatever.

But if you choose a beta male, someone who'll adore you, not bore you and do all your chores for you, who wants to put you on a pedestal and will probably polish it while you're up there.

You know, you've gotta have a much bigger and better and more satisfying career. So just, I've, I've been married to two Alphas whom I adore, but I've, I've now gotta beta boyfriend and beta’s, beta’s better.

You know, like my fa— The women who are very successful in British television, for example, Sandy Toksvig, Sue Perkins, Claire Balding, are all gay.

What do they have wives? Yeah, wives, and I've kind of got a male wife now and it, and it's fabulous. I highly recommend it.

Jean Kittson: That's a really good,

Jane Curry: That's funny because Kathy's just in from Perth. I'm just in from Brisbane. My overnight bike from Brisbane is just on the floor of my bedroom, just and so yeah, that's, we don't have wives.

Kathy Lette: No, that's what need

Jane Curry: We need, we need the backup.

Jean Kittson: Yes. So what would you say to people or at who are already over 50 and who are confronting this ageism? I mean, how do, how do they manage it? What should, because the confidence… I'll tell you a quick story.

A friend of mine's a teacher and she retired. She was a brilliant teacher, still is. She was doing some casual work and she, uh, went to the person organising the casual work at the, at the secondary college. She'd been working. At for 20 years and said, I'm really liking the casual work. You know, any casual work you can throw my way, that'd be good because I'm finding it hard to live on the pension.

And he said, ‘Ah, I don't know. There's a lot of younger casual teachers around and they've got more longevity and productivity than you have.’ You don't need productivity and longevity to be a good teacher.

Kathy Lette: No.

Jean Kittson: For a developing mind.

Kathy Lette: She needs to teach him that lesson. I hope she got up on the table and tap danced.

Jean Kittson: You used to say, Kathy, in television, it doesn't matter what you, um, uh, what age you are, as long as it, you don't look at, that's what the producers used to say.

Kathy Lette: Oh, yes. They're saying you've passed your use by date. Well, guess what? Tesco, a big supermarket chain in Britain, just took use-by dates off the food, because they said, make up your own mind. And I think the same should be done for women.

Jean Kittson: Exactly.

Kathy Lette: Take our use-by date off, judge us on our performance and our enthusiasm and our flexibility and our knowledge and our…

Jean Kittson: Exactly.

Kathy Lette: …sense of humor. And we're, we're individuals. You know,. what you have to do to survive the second act is go a lot of girls' nights out, a lot of laughter and, and sisterly camaraderie and um, strength in numbers, you know, and just boost each other up, give each other work. Like really put the, put your hand down and, and pull women up behind you.

Jane Curry: Yeah.

Kathy Lette: But in this, in the Sisterhood Rules, I've put lots of rules in the beginning about sisterly solidarity, like love and loyalty and sticking to each other like a nylon dress in a heat wave.

And it also encouraging women to think big, like don't tell men you want their seats on the bus. You want their seats on the board. Like, think big. We're too, we don't have big enough ambitions for ourselves. Husbands come and go, but um, the sisterhood lasts forever.

That's the most important rule I will share with you.

Jean Kittson: I agree totally. It's really important to have people you can ring up when you're feeling really down and just have a chat with them and then they lift you up and that's so important. And I, I wonder if you'd want to talk about when you gave up publishing — I mean, when you left your job and opened your own publishing company, did you have a mentor then or, well, who was supporting you?

Jane Curry: Amazing timing to ask me that. because I'm just about to go to the London book Fair and I got my first job in publishing in London and my boss, who must be now in her eighties, is still an absolute mover and shaker.

Kathy Lette: What's her name?

Jane Curry: Kit Van Tulleken. She's the mother of the Van Tulleken twins.

Kathy Lette: Great name.

Jane Curry: The Van Tulleken twins. Who are those… They're doctors that sell millions of copies of their books. Twins, identical twins.

Jean Kittson: Oh, you've written about twins.

Kathy Lette: Yeah.

Jane Curry: Yeah. So they, she had the corner office when I was literally sitting in a corridor at about age 22 or 23, and there she was in the corner office and her two boys would come in after school. And I just looked up and thought she was my absolute role model.

Kathy Lette: Oh, great.

Jane Curry: And I'm seeing her in the London book fair.

Kathy Lette: Nice.

Jane Curry: And then I think it's important for other women who are, you know, working. I have a coach, I have a business coach, so I see her once a month and she sorts my head out – not a psychologist, but business wise.

So where we have our natural weaknesses and we, you know, she'll always say you've – she's the ones that send, sends me those texts when I'm saying, I've got this difficult discussion, or I, you know, or different, you know, different emotions that you're taking to meetings just to take the emotion out of it and rely on the business.

So I think that's important for people as who are working, because we are older, so we do have the capacity to sort of resource ourselves. So rather than have a cleaner, I'd rather have a business coach.

Jean Kittson: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That's such a good…

Kathy Lette: …To clean out your, your, your brain. Yes. We do a lot of mentoring in England to younger women through the Women of the World Festival.

We mentor young girls at school. We go in the wheel, we go, you know, the, you know the millennial wheel?

Jane Curry: Oh yes.

Kathy Lette: And we're in different pods and we go around in a pod with a group of girls, and then the next time we get off and get in another pod. So it's, we make it fun, but it's also very helpful for them

And it's good for me. I learn a lot from them as well.

Jane Curry: Yeah. One of the things I've learned going back into corporate after about 10 years of running my own business is, you know, the young women that we employ, you know how they're much more in their power than I ever was at that age.

Jean Kittson: Oh, definitely.

Jane Curry: When I was getting divorced, my lawyer turned around and said, are you okay?

And I said, yes. I think looking at the kangaroo and the emu on the coat of arms thinking, how on earth did I end up here? Um, but then I said afterwards, I said, how do you do that every day? And he said, take the emotion. There's no emotion in it for me, Jane. I take the emotion out of it.

And I've always remembered that advice.

So take the emotion out of things. Even the most difficult business transaction, you know, when you've, particularly in publishing, you're dealing with creative people, you know, but take the emotion out of it. Look at the bare bones of the business transaction. Put the emotion in at the beginning and the end.

But when it comes to actually achieving an outcome that is to the satisfaction of both parties, take the emotion out of it. So, channeling my divorce lawyer!

Kathy Lette: When I got divorced, I remember saying – I knew they charged by the hour – so I used to go in and say, no adjectives, no adverbs, no anecdotes. Just get straight to the facts!

But getting back to the mental thing, I just like to say that I, I do wanna encourage all women to always help other women. And when I published, when I wrote Puberty Blues as a teenager, that was rejected by about 10 publishers. Then I saw Anne Summers had written a piece in the paper about, um, gang rapes in Queensland or something.

I thought she'll get this surfy brutality that goes on, and I sent her some of the manuscript and she sent it to a small feminist publishing group called McPhee Gribble in Melbourne. And the rest is history. So that was an absolute perfect example of the sisterhood supporting each other.

Jean Kittson: And getting it, understanding each other.

Kathy Lette: Understanding each other. That's right.

Jean Kittson: And what they're going through and the importance of talking about it.

Kathy Lette: We just need more women in power. Why can't, why can't women just run the world just for a year? We say to the men, go play golf. Do whatever you like. Just go for a year, just let us take over. We can't do a worse job than you've done and see what we could achieve.

Jane Curry: Well, fortunately COVID has given us flexible work conditions. We couldn't get it beforehand, but most of my staff now, we've got nearly a hundred people and it's fantastic. So we've got lots of young mothers on the payroll.

Jean Kittson: Oh that's great

Jane Curry: And they work, you know, it's great. I've re and I think it took COVID to allow the bosses…

Kathy Lette: Yes.

Jane Curry: …the patriarchy, to see that working from home is, it can work.

Kathy Lette: Because that's another big sexist trope. You know, that society expects women to raise children as though we don't work as well.

Jane Curry: That's why I started my own business. Yes. Because when I told my boss I was expecting. The very first thing he said to me was, well, you can't work part-time.

That's what he said to me. And I was the managing director at the time, and I actually miscarried that baby. So it gave me a little window to get out from under. So that's when I went to Macmillan because Ross Gibb, who's just retired from publishing, he said over lunch at Machiavelli's – because publishing still has a few lunches – I told him the story and he said, Jane, you can work part-time for me. He's lovely any day.

Kathy Lette: He lovely. He was my publisher for a while.

Jane Curry: So that's why I went to Macmillan. Because people say, why did you go from being a managing director to being a publisher? And I did that because Ross said, you can work for me any day.

He saw the value of female talent.

Kathy Lette: Yeah. Yes.

Jane Curry: So I had a fantastic year, few years. What about seven years at Macmillan whilst I had my two boys. I'm like,

Kathy Lette: See, revenge, revenge! Fabulous. I think the reason women are drawn, I've them…

Jean Kittson: …outlive them!

Kathy Lette: I think the reason women are drawn to revenge is it's sweet, but totally non fattening – fabulous.

Jane Curry: It is, it is. So Ross Gibbs – we do have our allies.

Kathy Lette: We do, we do. And it's been important to say that…

Jane Curry: …yes…

Kathy Lette: …that of course there are great men who do support us and want the best for us. But we need more, we need more men, at the barricades. I've been saying the same feminist things – Jean and I have been saying the same thing through our comedy since we were teenagers, and we still don’t have equal pay.

So we need men to get on the barricades with us and say, enough, you know, we, we need equality, we need it now. And I often say, some men challenge me when I'm on tour and they'll say, you know, you feminists are asking for too much. And I'm like, are we, are we really asking for too much equal pay?

We'd like men to help us more around the house, which is in their interest. Is it scientifically proven? No woman ever shot a husband while he's vacuuming. We'd like them to do the odd sensitive thing with snow peas in the kitchen, because the weight to a woman's heart through her stomach. Not aiming too high.

Jane Curry: Because I've got boys who are now in their 20s, so I've looked at it through that, you know, men's mental health, they don't want to always be the strong and the tough ones.

Kathy Lette: No. Feminism works for men as well.

Jane Curry: Yes. That's the thing. Exactly. They're allowed to have emotions…

Kathy Lette: …and not have the pressure to be the breadwinner and all of that.

Jane Curry: Yeah. So I see it, you know, having raised boys as a feminist, you know, to make sure that we can have open discussions. And, yeah, I'd like to think that they're well on the way to being good allies.

But yeah, it is a brutal world out there. So I just think we do have to look out for each other and I'm really thrilled to be working with young women, again.

Jean Kittson: To sum up this fantastic conversation, which could go on for hours, um, how would you, uh, what is the main message you like to say to people over 50 who are confronted by ageism or sexism, and how do they find it in them, the courage to stop that voice going, maybe I am too old.

Kathy Lette: Well, I would say carpe diem, like there's no tomorrow. You know, tempus is fugiting – if not now, when, and you know.

One of my mottoes is adventure before dementia. Not that I'm making light of that terrible disease, but you never know what's around the corner. So there's no time to waste. Be… have as much fun and frivolity. Be as outrageous as you can possibly be because you know, this is your last big hurrah. You know…

Jean Kittson: Be assertive now!

Kathy Lette: Yes, don't have any qualms. Just, you know, tap dance on that tabletop.

Jane Curry: When I've had moments of self-doubt, I get moving.

Not necessarily tap dancing, but get active, lift weights, go to the gym, run, walk the dog – dark clouds, gather. That's what I'd say if I was in that frame of mind and wondering how the world was going to greet me, I'd take the world on and get active, get those endorphins flowing. Because then you feel so much better.

Kathy Lette: And also lean into the sisterly comradery.

Jane Curry: Yes.

Kathy Lette: Go out with your girlfriend as often. Which Jean and I do.

Jean Kittson: Yes. Find beautiful women like yourselves and ring them up or have a glass of champagne.

Kathy Lette: Yes. The human wonder bras uplifting, supportive, and make each other look bigger and better. Which is what Jean has done for us today. Thank you.

Jean Kittson: Oh no, you two have, you've both been fantastic been great fun.

Thank you so much. What a great conversation.

Kathy Lette: Thank you Jean.

Jean Kittson: Thanks.

Kathy Lette: Sisterhood rules.

ALL: Sisterhood Rules!

Jean Kittson: Thank you to Kathy Lette and Jane Curry.

You've been listening to DARE: The Time of Your Life, brought to you by Australian seniors.

Please leave a review and share this show with someone you know. Visit seniors.com au/podcast for more episodes.

I’m Jean Kittson. Thank you.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Stoking your sense of adventure and kick-starting curiosity is so important as we get older – just ask seven-time world champion surfer Layne Beachley and clinical psychologist Dr Roy Sugarman, who explain how you, too, can embrace new experiences and redefine what's possible, at any age.

About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA.

Join Jean Kittson for the seventh season of DARE: The Time of Your Life (formerly Life’s Booming), called Better With Age. 

Too often ageing is painted as decline. In reality, Australians are living longer, healthier lives and reshaping what “older” looks like. This series flips the script and shows how ageing is not a dirty word but rather a time to be embraced, featuring interviews with extraordinary over 50s refusing to slip quietly into the background. 

Layne Beachley is a seven-time world champion surfer, who has been pushing the boundaries of women’s surfing since she first stepped on a phone board aged four, going on to win a record breaking six consecutive world titles. Still hitting the waves every day, Layne continues to share her story and help others as a motivational speaker and co-founder of Awake Academy.

Dr Roy Sugarman is a clinical psychologist and clinical neuropsychologist who works with professional athletes, special forces and corporate leaders. He is also head neuroscientist for education technology company, Box Play and a co-founder of the global technology research company, Transhuman Inc, where he holds the patient for how we capture human emotions on data files, as well as having developed a totally non-pathological model for online mental health applications for the Department of Health Services in the state of California together with Kooth USA. 

Watch DARE: The Time of Your Life on YouTube   

Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Apple Podcasts 

Listen to DARE: The Time of Your Life on Spotify 

For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency with Myrtle & Pine

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TRANSCRIPT:

Jean Kittson: Hello and welcome to a new season of DARE: The Time of Your Life, formerly Life’s Booming, brought to you by Australian Seniors, in partnership with RSPCA. For more episodes, visit seniors.com.au/podcast.

In this episode, we're exploring our adventurous side and being bold and taking risks and how it’s not just for your formative years. It's for now, from scaling mountains and learning to surf, to taking a grey gap year and traveling solo.

More Australians over 50 are embracing new experiences and pushing their limits. Proving there is no expiry date when it comes to adventure. So, how can we overcome the, ‘I'm too old for this’ mindset to achieve the confidence to try something new? I mean, it could be something you've always wanted to do or something you did in the past and would like to take up again or something you only just thought of.

Fostering our sense of adventure and kick-starting our curiosity is so important as we get older and to help us understand why it is important is Dr Roy Sugarman. Dr Roy Sugarman is a clinical psychologist and clinical neuropsychologist who works with professional athletes, special forces and corporate leaders. He is also head neuroscientist for education technology company Box Play.

And joining Roy, someone who needs no introduction. Seven time world champion surfer Layne Beachley. Layne has been pushing the boundaries of women surfing since she first stepped on a phone board aged four, and she has gone on to win a record breaking six consecutive world titles.

Although she has been retired from competitive surfing for almost two decades, Layne still hits the waves every day. And Layne has ventured into another career altogether, sharing her story and helping others as a motivational speaker and co-founder of Awake Academy. Welcome Layne. 

Layne Beachley: Thanks Jean 

Jean Kittson: And welcome Roy.Welcome you both. 

Layne Beachley: Thank you. Lovely to be here. 

Jean Kittson: It's so great to have you both here with us and talking about this really important topic about, you know, keeping on pushing ourselves and challenging ourselves. 

Layne Beachley: It was interesting when you said in the intro about, am I too old for this? I had an experience this weekend, actually, you might be able to help me out with this Roy, where I was competing for my board rider’s club and I was one of the oldest in the whole field and I did come out of the water because it wasn't as enjoyable as it normally is, competing.

I did have that mentality. I'm too old for this. Now, do you put that down to the fact that it's just 'cause I'm tired or can I just Are you allowed to be too old for this? 

Roy Sugarman: Well, absolutely. You can choose whatever time. Were you too young for it at four years old?

Layne Beachley: I knew you… 

Roy Sugarman: So if you weren't too young for it at four years old, you Yeah, no, keep going.

But what happens is, if I look at my athletes who keep training through 60 years old that don't show signs of ageing. 

So you've got 90 year olds who run triathlons and do Iron Men simply because they never stopped. I mean, you look at their muscles or you look at their hearts. They’re 30 years old. 

Layne Beachley: Right.

Roy Sugarman: So what's the mindset? Mindset becomes your biggest thing. Doing the difficult thing. 

Layne Beachley: Mm-hmm. 

Roy Sugarman: That's the correct thing to do. When you have a choice and the point is you thought you have a choice. 

Layne Beachley: Well, I do have a choice, and I also believe it's the recovery process and the the space that you have around it.

Because at 90 years old, there's not much else really going on in your life that's gonna distract you too heavily from being able to take good care of yourself. But that starts now. We don't wait till we're 90 before we start taking care of ourselves. So I'm just thinking now that you've said. Now that I'm in my fifties and I'm still competing, I need to actually have more space for preparation and recovery to enjoy it more.

Roy Sugarman: Yeah. I think there are four pillars. There's the mindset pillar, there's nutrition and movement, and recovery is your fourth pillar. 

Jean Kittson: Okay. Right. Say that again. Recovery is your… 

Roy Sugarman: So mindset's your first important part of that. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. And then the next one 

Roy Sugarman: Movement and nutrition are critical as you get older. And even the rot starts early, so when you're young as well. And that fourth pillar is recovery time. So in other words, 

Jean Kittson: Where you rest and put your feet up, 

Roy Sugarman: don't overtrain. 

Jean Kittson: You don't have to work on recovery, do you? 

Layne Beachley: You do. You have to… 

Roy Sugarman: Oh yes, 

Jean Kittson: Oh, you have to work for recovery. 

Roy Sugarman: Well, there's active and passive, right?

Layne Beachley: Exactly. 

Roy Sugarman: Yeah. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Jean Kittson: Oh gosh. Now we're getting technical. Alright. Can you say what active recovery and passive is in a few words that we, people who aren't sports people will understand, please! 

Layne Beachley: Well, active recovery would be things like massage and acupuncture and compression therapy and ice therapy and heat therapy 

Jean Kittson: Ah, 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. That would be the active 

Jean Kittson: And the passive is a glass of wine. 

Jean Kittson: The telly on, the feet up. Right? 

Layne Beachley: Well, preferably coconut water. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Layne Beachley: Not something that's all anti, well, not something that's inflammatory like alcohol. 

Roy Sugarman: So going for a walk. 

Layne Beachley: going for a walk. 

Roy Sugarman: Going for a walk, doing some stretching, doing some yoga.

Very light stuff. Just keeping going, but being active, getting out of bed at the same time, going to sleep at the same time. There's more passive recovery, doing some heart rate variability training. 

 Jean Kittson: Look, I'm feeling too old for this, as you say, I have never sort of worked in that way in a routine or with, you know, that much care.

Layne Beachley: So television doesn't provide that, does it? 

Jean Kittson: Television? No. I don't really watch a lot of television. I do a little, just a lot of, I don't know what I do. Running around, I run around, a headless chook, and then sit down and, you know…

Layne Beachley: With a glass of wine. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, with a glass of wine. So when you have that pass through your mind – I'm too old for this – this is what happens to, I think a lot of people when, as they, as they get older in later life, they think ‘well, maybe I am too old for this.’ And I don't know whether it's their mindset or other people are putting it on it. You are out surfing with younger people.

Did you get that impression that other people were looking at you like that? Or was, did it come from yourself? 

Layne Beachley: No, it came from myself. I don't care about how people look at me and the judgements that they make, cast upon me. It's more around my opinion of myself. That's the most important. I think it also came down to how my body was feeling and the energy that I was able to put into the performance.

And just the mindset is also a reflection of how I'm feeling within myself. So I've been in a moon boot for a few weeks. Yeah, not ideal preparation either. And so I'm really conscious about allowing that injury to heal, but while still being able to do what I wanna do. And that's another thing that slows us down as we get older, is the injuries and the progression of injuries, and then honoring the injury and allowing it to heal. 

Roy Sugarman: Yeah. And the point that changes as you get older, which is something for younger athletes as well, is you can't be outcome focused.

Cause that is going to be a negative for you. But the doctor says you have to lose weight. That's your outcome. Well, reactant theory, somebody's telling you what to do.

But the important part of what Layne said is that, the opposite of a competitive mindset is psychological flexibility, which means I'm going to take my eyes off the end result. I'm going to just go for process. 

I'm going to enjoy what I'm doing. I'm going to love what I'm doing, how well I do. These other people can beat me.

They're quicker, faster, stronger, younger. Which is very sad, but their rot’s… 

Jean Kittson: We hate them. 

Roy Sugarman: Their rot has already started, you know, and you know, people say, but you're 72, are you slowing down? The answer is, I hate old people, and I'm one of them, you know, some ageist as hell. But what Layne said very important is focus on the process of enjoying what you're doing.

Forget about the outcome. The outcome may be beyond you, today. 

Jean Kittson: Well, this is expectations, isn't it? And the expectations we have on ourselves. So for instance, if you, we've been an elite athlete, like you have, your expectations of yourself must be enormous, and then you retired. How, how did you know when it was time to retire?

Layne Beachley: Well. I knew because I wasn't willing to do the work outside of the water to generate the results that I expected of myself within it. If I have this expectation to perform well and win, then that has to be measured or correlated with the training, the preparation, the nutrition. All of the things that are, that need to be invested into performing my best.

And I wasn't willing to do that work anymore. I was distracted. I was looking over the fence. I was craving a life outside of surfing. Knowing that I wasn't willing to do the work, I could have easily stayed there and just qualified and made up a number of the girls on tour, but that's not who I am.

I perform and I prepare to perform well. I wasn't willing to do the preparation, so it was easy to make that decision. But to that point around expectation, I'm a seven times world champion. I won six in a row, but I won five in fear and two in love. And the two love-based titles were the process driven ones and the five fear-based world titles were outcome driven.

So it's too easy to get stuck. And I say that because I've proven that you can succeed in both mentalities, but one costs you a lot more than the other. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: So, and that's where you find the values shift because you have to be valid and authentic as an athlete. And what you've described is how your values shifted and you became a valid and authentic version of yourself at whatever age. Which means you can do the difficult thing that's the correct thing to do. 'cause you had a choice. 

Layne Beachley: Right. 

Roy Sugarman: And when you have a choice, you choose according to your, what's valid for you. Those are your values and that gives you the psychological flexibility – competition doesn't matter so much. Being flexible and enjoying what I'm doing and the return on investment, and what it's gonna cost is a value-based decision. 

Layne Beachley: Right. 

Roy Sugarman: So if you're gonna be happy and cross the line, as we call it, right

Layne Beachley: Yes. 

Roy Sugarman: You cross the line from being a pro to enjoying your life. [00:10:40] 

Layne Beachley: Can't you do both? 

Roy Sugarman: If you're lucky. But you know, I really love the authenticity and validity of what Layne said: I made a values-based decision. I was going to go now for the process, I loved two of those competitions 'cause I was in it for the love. 

Young athletes come up loving what they do, and then money or success or extrinsic motivators get there. Intrinsically, it wasn't motivating for you. You’d mastered it. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: So that sense of mastery, the idea of getting better and better at what's important to you shifted. And that's great. That's authentic. 

Layne Beachley: But to that point around choice, even when you say I don't have a choice, that in itself is a choice. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. I choose not to choose. 

Layne Beachley: Yes. 

Jean Kittson: That's the easy way, right? 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. I don't have a choice. 

Jean Kittson: We all, I think we're all susceptible to extrinsic

Layne Beachley: motivations.

Jean Kittson: Do I say that? Extrinsic? Motivation and influences. And even in our everyday lives, it's very hard to sort of chill down and be true to yourself and make the choices that you want to make. We are all, even if we haven't been athletes, most people have made enormous sacrifices in their lives for their families or their partners, or maybe they've been, maybe they've had to deal with illnesses and trauma and this. So, to get to a stage in your life where you can understand yourself better, which is what I loved about hearing about your Awake Academy and hearing podcasts about how you have done a lot of work on self-awareness 

And how much that has informed the way you feel about yourself. You no longer when you win a game — when you win a competition, you feel like a winner. When you lose a competition, you feel like a loser. How that's gone from your life and now you're sharing that with others. 

And I think that's a wonderful thing you are doing. Is that giving you a lot of satisfaction. What's that bringing you? Why did you decide to do that? 

Layne Beachley: Well, when you become successful, as you know, (and as you know), I mean, everyone wants to know how you do it. And if you're able to deconstruct it and present it in a relatable way that people can take something from, that’s why I do it. I'm constantly doing the work on myself to then help people see themselves in me.

I'm not putting myself up as the, the beacon and the light of perfection, because I'm as imperfect as you (and you) are. But what I am doing is saying I'm imperfect, but I'm also vulnerable and authentic in that, and I wanna help you become more vulnerable and authentic within yourself. So at Awake Academy, we're really inspired to help people be their best selves to live their best life. 

So to live your best life, you have to know who you are first. To achieve something great in the world, you have to know who you are because once you know who you are, then you can start working towards what you want. But sometimes, especially as kids, we put what we want ahead of ourselves and we lose ourselves in that.

And I did that in those fear-based world titles. I won that first one and then went, okay, to be worthy of something else, I have to be more than what I am. And I lost that sense of self. And that taught me a lot about myself. So I love sharing those stories to help people feel less alone in their struggles, less isolated, less disconnected, and that they can relate to someone that they may be able to draw some knowledge and inspiration from.

Because if you are getting inspiration from me, that's not me creating the inspiration in you, that's you creating the inspiration in you. And I think we put our self worth outside of ourselves too often. 

Jean Kittson: I think you'll provide the tools for people to manage themselves better. Which is what you do, Roy, and you are, you do it all based on the science of how humans behave and what motivates us.

Roy Sugarman: Sure. Because in many ways we have a lot of similarities and differences from animals. So biologically it's quite easy to understand, and that takes the guilt away from people. The idea that when you're a young athlete and you don't get into the team or you don't succeed, I mean, Barcelona Academy will have 600 kids at any one time.

None of them will play for Barcelona, apart from what their parents think, which is ‘all of them are going to play’, you know. So this expectation thing that said the drivenness to outcome, the forgetting, that self-reflection of what is valid and authentic for you is critical to the psychological flexibility of the young athletes or young medical students or young nursing students or otherwise, they start to look at suicide.

We created an app a few years ago, 2017, we launched it, Time Magazine said we saved 23,000 lives. I don’t know how they got the figure, but you know…

Layne Beachley: Go with it

Roy Sugarman: My colleague Amanda, she, went with it, I hid! And she got under 30, you know, 30 influences of the year, and she became CEO of our startup in Delaware and everything else.

The critical thing was vulnerability. We used the app to create vulnerability that people could experience without talking. They just had a swipe left and right to express vulnerability. 

And if you teach, vulnerability is good, that you self-reflect because every first year medical student, nursing student is taught to self-reflect on your values, what is valid and authentic.

If you failed, you failed. It's okay, but did you fail on your own terms? If you left, you left on your own terms. Right? 

If you're going out of the door, it must be the door that you chose to leave, you know, so the crossing the line, the self-reflection that you talk about. So critical, but what are you reflecting on? What is valid and authentic for you at the time. And that's critical to an athlete mentality or success mentality. 

Jean Kittson: It must be critical to older people as well who have spent a life just fulfilling other people's expectations and succeeding in their business or whatever they've done without being elite athletes.

I'm just trying to bring this back to what older people might experience when they retire and then suddenly they're left with themselves and looking at themselves maybe for the first time in their lives. And how are they going to deal with, how are they going to maintain a sense of self-esteem when how they valued themselves, maybe through their work or that has gone.

Roy Sugarman: same with an athlete, same with an older person. It's your sense of identity. You have an athlete's identity. It's what you've been doing from four to whenever you give up. The same with being a lawyer. You started studying at 18 and you now finished at 70, and you are one of those people who goes into work, but the youngsters don't need you.

So maintaining your sense, and you mentioned a very important word at the beginning of this whole thing, you said curiosity. The opposite of avoidance of all of this catastrophe of the loss of your identity is curiosity of being caught up now. Okay, What is valid and authentic for me now that I'm no longer a lawyer or a long distance athlete?

As long as you true yourself, that's where the mindset comes in. That's where awake is so important – is wake up to the idea that you are not just an athlete. You are not just a lawyer, self-reflect on what's valid and authentic for you as a person, and then begin the next phase of your life.  

Layne Beachley: And ideally wake up to that before you become the athlete or before you become the lawyer.

Roy Sugarman: Hopefully have that mindset about what is going to be your intrinsic mastery. That whole idea of getting better and better at what's important to you is critical, not what's important to the crowds or anybody. What's important to you? Now, get better at it. 

So human growth starts when a 72-year-old or an 80-year-old decides they're going to do a whole new and complex thing. Create the brain cell connections and off you go.  

Jean Kittson: Oh, so it's never too late to start a new and complex activity or interest. 

Roy Sugarman: You can't afford not to because you're starting that process of God's waiting room. You know, that older people tell me and when they come in miserable with highly successful lives, you know, perhaps thinking of the only one or two things they messed up.

Then we go, what are you gonna do in the next five, 10, 15, 20, 30 years? Because if you can write a book like Eddie Jaku at 101, gets published in 26 languages, have your own TED talk, ageing, novel complexity. Start, go. You know why stop. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. Why do we stop? 

Jean Kittson: Well, this is it. Is it our negative thoughts about ourselves and our capacity?

Is it physical? I mean, we don't wanna break anything, that's for sure. I mean, is it purely, what is stopping us trying new things or having adventures or… 

 Layne Beachley: Fear. 

Roy Sugarman: And I wanna bounce this off Layne. We have an interesting phenomenon in our brain as we compute emotions and logic separately. And emotions are stronger.

When we look at a goal, we tend to see the big picture, which is overwhelming. And there are two aspects. How desirable is this change for you and what is your perceived ability and the interventions are – how desirable, love to do it; perceived ability, it's too hard, it's too big, it's gonna be too difficult.

What happened to baby steps? What happened to micro goals? So the answer is we get this ambivalence. The clash between ‘I would really love to do it but it’s gonna be too hard. I'm too old.’ 

But what about the desirability? Well look at the emotional drivers, not the rational ones: I'm too old.

The emotional ones: ‘I'd really love to do this’ (process based, might never get there). 

And second of all, your perceived ability is based on age? No, it's based on smaller goals that you can achieve all the way to the big one. So if I decide I'm gonna play Wimbledon next year, at 72. You'd say you're an idiot. On the other hand, if it's process based… 

Layne Beachley: Can you play tennis? 

Roy Sugarman: Not a chance, but I'll get a coach 

Layne Beachley: Then I think you're crazy.

Roy Sugarman:  I'll get a coach, I'll go every day and whatever else. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: And by the end of the year I'll be playing at a club maybe. 

Layne Beachley: Mm-hmm. 

Roy Sugarman: I'll be playing with other people and beating them, and I'll be loving tennis. I'm never getting to Wimbledon, but the process is gonna be great. 

Layne Beachley: Process will be the same too. 

Roy Sugarman: The goal's irrelevant, the process. 

Layne Beachley: But if we get ahead of ourselves. And I'd actually love to ask you a question about this. So, when we set these goals for ourselves, sometimes they can be more audacious than others.

So perhaps we set ourselves a big goal, such as becoming a world champion at something. And there I think there's two trains of, there's two modes of motivation. There's of course the extrinsic and the intrinsic motivation. The extrinsic motivation can be a force of fear to a degree. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. 

Layne Beachley: Right.

So if I think about athletes who have a fear of failure versus athletes that have a fear of success, the outcome in my mentality, and you are the trained psychologist here, so you might be able to help me here, understand this even better. The outcome, the associated outcome of success is so scary that they end up sabotaging themselves.

I had a fear of success. Fortunately, what you fear, you attract. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. 

Layne Beachley: So I was, but I became aware of it so it no longer governed my behaviours versus the fear of failure, which gives us reason to just stop. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. 

Layne Beachley: Because we've convinced ourselves over and over and over again that we're never gonna make it.

So is the lesson here for anyone at any age when they hit that point of tension? That they become curious in that moment. And so what's the best question that they can ask themselves to step forward? 

Roy Sugarman: Why not me? The problem is we all have some kind of an image of ourselves and Scott Peltin from Tignum and I had this discussion for years in Arizona.

We all have an image of ourselves. And to succeed, we have to exceed that image. We have to go past the image. As we do that, we become anxious. 

And elite athletes, as you’ll know, waiting for the right wave, you know, counting all of those, everybody catching their waves, you know, waiting and going through that first heat.

Then you've got the second heat. You know, you're so close to success, the fear.

The idea is the first question is, why not me? Because other people do it, and other people might always be more talented, quicker, whatever. But you have to exceed your own image to succeed. And every time you do that, every time you challenge yourself, you need to be curious about how anxious you're gonna be.

'Cause every change and every growth comes with anxiety. That's where you go for what's valid. I'm going to be curious just about how anxious this makes me. 

Then live with it and see. That means psychological flexibility, staying in the moment, being curious about the moment and not worrying about the outcome anymore.

Jean Kittson: Not worrying, being vulnerable, taking a chance, you know, dispel fear as well. 

Roy Sugarman: Fear is natural, the fear of success, that fear of exceeding your image. The fear of most of the athletes I've trained will never win a gold medal. Not even come close to a medal at the Olympics and have been four times and loved every second of it. Even the cardboard beds!

Whatever, whatever it is, why not me? If you want to change careers, if you want to become this, you wanna do that. We have the children headed for HSC and we say, well. So you don't get a great HSC. You can get into any course, you want to just go and do another degree and do well at it.

Jean Kittson: Exactly. 

Roy Sugarman: Do something you enjoy and love. So the critical thing is you get older. There is no point going to a bootcamp that you're going to hate, where some young blonde, spray tan person with who counts your reps and and has a mobile phone available to prompt them with AI as to what you should be doing.

They should be watching you very carefully. Do you love the exercise? Do you love what you're gonna do? Because if you love it, you're probably good at it. And if you're good at it, you probably love it. So now that you've finished your career, now that you've finished your whatever, and you crossed the line, why not you?

The answer is be curious as to what this is going to demand from you. Do the difficult thing that's the right thing to do because you have a choice. The easy thing: not gonna work. 

Jean Kittson: What would you say to people whose family may say, ‘you shouldn't do this, Mum!’ Or ‘you shouldn't do this Dad,’ or ‘you are too old for this.’

What would you say to people who have external pressures about helping, about trying something new? 

Layne Beachley: Why not me? 

Jean Kittson: Yes, same. 

Layne Beachley: I have plenty of people in my family and friends circle that say that to me. 

Roy Sugarman: You should be slowing down.

Layne Beachley: Yeah, of course. 

Jean Kittson: What do you mean? 

Layne Beachley: Well, you're too old for this, or you shouldn't be doing that.

Roy Sugarman: Or you should slow down. You should slow down. The reason is they're scared for you. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: So they're trying to stop you doing what would make you happy, which is to be curious and take risks. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. They're projecting their fears onto you. They're trying to protect themselves, not you. 

Jean Kittson: Well of course they don't wanna be a carer of someone. You know, in a wheelchair, if you jumped out of a plane or… No. Jump out of a plane. I know it sounds, you know, I wouldn't do it, but people love it. 

Layne Beachley:  I love it. It's great fun. 

Roy Sugarman: If it was burning, I'd jump, but… 

Jean Kittson: Yeah!

Roy Sugarman: But think you've gotta be positive. Layne was in a boot for quite a while. That means she could float better.

You know, you could float if you came off the board I on that board

Layne Beachley: I never surfed in a boot! Never swam in it either.

Roy Sugarman: A flotation device. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah, don't need a flotation device! 

Roy Sugarman: So yeah, just think of fear and human fear and what it might be based on. And that self-reflection is, ‘what am I scared of? What am I afraid of? What have I got to lose?’ 

As you get older and older, you might feel that you have a lot to lose, that you are more vulnerable. But that's not true. 

Layne Beachley: Why isn't it true? 

Roy Sugarman: Why are you more vulnerable? You're more vulnerable to risk taking because of expectations of what people do because of ageism, because ‘old people don't do that’.

Roy Sugarman:  But, you know, the thing is about getting old and not doing things is, the excuses are like, ‘why don't we ride a bicycle?’ Well, I don't have a bicycle.

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: Or I'm scared I might fall off or whatever else. So the critical reason is ‘why not me, is this valid and authentic for me?’ Because that will bolster your being older and ageing so-called gracefully. Yes, you are running against biology, you're running against everything. But the most critical thing is your mindset of what is authentic and valid for you, not for the next 72-year-old.

Because by that nature I should not be, you know, running to Bondi 8kms there and back up hill, which I hate, but my dog loves it. So yeah. 

Jean Kittson: Well, keeping curiosity and challenges in your life is so important because we're always learning and otherwise, as you said, we're just waiting. What are we waiting for: the end.

But when you said about fear, that is really important because it translates to so many different aspects of the lives of people as they get older, including, I always hear, you know, the family saying ‘oh, my mum doesn't want any help around the house, and, and I know she needs help.’ But that comes from fear too, that it's a thin edge of the wedge.

If you let someone come in and help you with the washing up, it means that you're not coping and then, then your family will put you in a home. That's the outcome. You know, that's a big fear that you will lose your autonomy. 

But in this way, it sounds like to maintain your autonomy and your independence and maintain your confidence, it's important to have challenges and challenge yourself and make your own decisions. 

Layne Beachley: And being realistic about what those challenges are.

Jean Kittson: Yes, 

Roy Sugarman: Because avoidance, the opposite of curiosity is avoidance. 

And avoidance is staying safe. But staying safe means learning nothing. We learn nothing from success. You learn from the times you fall off the board. 

Layne Beachley: I learned a little bit about success, from success. 

Roy Sugarman: I've never had any, so how would I know? 

Layne Beachley: Wow, rubbish.

It's funny that you know that you say you learn nothing from success. I learned a lot from success, but learning how to lose taught me how to win. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes, 

Layne Beachley: And it's those failures that we fear as we get older because of a variety of different reasons. Yet if we maintain our sense of curiosity in those moments, then we get to ask ourselves, is it valid and is it authentic to me? So when I came outta the water last weekend, having failed, in my eyes, because I did not perform the way I wanted to perform, 

I was able to detach from that and just ask myself, is this still a valid and authentic place that I wanna be? Is this still a valuable and authentic environment that I wanna subject myself to?

Jean Kittson: Yeah. Do you want to feel like you failed? 

Layne Beachley: Well, no, it's not about feeling like, is it still, do I keep competing, right?

Jean Kittson:  Yes. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. Because failure is the stepping stone to success. Failure is the necessary part because understanding how you adapt and approach failure enables you to embrace success.

But if we don't take the failures in our stride, then we stop trying and we stop putting ourselves, we stop it. We stop taking risks. 

Roy Sugarman: And being realistic is testing that. 

Layne Beachley: Yes. Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: That curiosity is, I'm going to test and see if my daughter's right and I shouldn't be doing that. You know, I'm gonna test those limits, which is again, Scott Peltin's view of exceeding your own image is important. It comes with anxiety; living with that is the curiosity. 

Are we going to test those limits and see, because we don't know what we don't know. And if we do know, or you know, Lang’s dictum or whoever it was: if you don’t know you don't know, you think you do know. 

And if you don't know you do know, you think you don't! 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. 

Roy Sugarman: So test it and find out what you know about yourself, which [00:31:00] is that critical self-evaluation again. And then ask, ‘well, why not me? I'm going to test that.’ 

Layne Beachley: Jean, is there something that you are wanting to do that you're fearful of stepping into?

Jean Kittson: Everything probably. Well there's something I've always wanted to do, and then I always swore I'd do it by the time I was 40 and then I didn't, and now I'm 70, and now I think it's probably too late. But I've always, but it may not be. I've always wanted to sculpt. I love doing things with my hands

Layne Beachley: As in clay, sculpting? 

Jean Kittson: As in I think I would probably start with Clay and then move on to sort of ten storey bronzes. I dunno, I'd start small.

Layne Beachley: Why do you think it's too late? 

Jean Kittson: I feel like I have lost capacity in like physical 

Layne Beachley: Oh, 

Jean Kittson: I feel like it's a physical thing, not a mental thing. I know what I would sculpt 

Layne Beachley: Right. 

Jean Kittson: I know what I would do, but I can, I feel like I couldn't do it physically and that's sad, because I… sculpture moves me when I see sculpture, I'm moved.

But then it might be like, I do it and then I don't, I don't get moved except to tears. What a mess. You know? I suppose I'm scared of failing too. 

Layne Beachley: Ah, so 

Roy Sugarman: Well let's turn that around and say sculpting is going to strengthen your hands.

Jean Kittson: Well, that would be good. I'm getting a little bit of arthritis. 

Roy Sugarman: Good. So you need to use your hands. Movement is really good for arthritis and clay, and then work your way to Italian marble and really terrorise yourself. 

Jean Kittson: Yes, just be a Michelangelo. That would be amazing. 

Layne Beachley: So as a psychologist, if Jean was sitting opposite you in your room, and she's telling you this story…

Roy Sugarman: She has an image of the strength of her hands she hasn't tested, she hasn't been curious about testing her hands. I would get you to test the strength of your hands and to increase the strength of your hands and your range of movement, and deal with the arthritis and strengthen everything, and then get busy with clay.

Why not? 

Layne Beachley: Because the first thing that I think about, yeah, it's all about me, is that I wanted to build the strength in my body again because menopause stripped me of my strength and I surrendered to menopause and just went, oh, that's my deal. Done. And then I thought, I wanna get strong. I need to go back to the gym.

And going back to the gym terrified me because I didn't know what to do. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. 

Layne Beachley: I've always had a personal trainer. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Layne Beachley: So I rang a friend and said, I need a personal trainer. And then, I was afraid to fail in front of my personal trainer, but I was also afraid to feel weak, but I thought to feel strong, I have to embrace the fact that I am weaker right now, but if I keep doing the thing and showing up and building my capacity, then I will become stronger over time.

Jean Kittson: Yeah. 

Layne Beachley: Same thing with your hands. 

Jean Kittson: Not look at the big picture. Yes. Because that's the other thing, you're afraid that what I make is not what I have in my mind. 

Layne Beachley: Yes. Right. But you can make it over time. 

Jean Kittson: Yes.  

Layne Beachley: But detach, as Roy said… 

Jean Kittson: maybe it's not important. Maybe the process is what we've been talking. 

Roy Sugarman: You'll find that out in the process.

Jean Kittson: I'll find it out if I just do it. Just do it.

Roy Sugarman: Why not you? Why not you? 

Jean Kittson: Yeah, why not? 

Layne Beachley: We're gonna ring a sculptor tomorrow. We're gonna get you booked in.

Jean Kittson: Oh, I just had this, I felt like my heart just jumped into my throat! 

Roy Sugarman: Shows you how important it is to, to become that creative and see something growing outside of you and being able to change it. 

Jean Kittson: Manipulate it

Roy Sugarman: Create a vision of what it should be. And you know, I mean, Michelangelo took, you know, this horrible piece of marble that somebody threw out and he saw David in it. 

Jean Kittson: Well, thank you so much for that encouragement. alright. I think I'll do it. I'll report back. Yeah. 

Layne Beachley: Please do. We'd love to, I wanna see the sculpture. Because if you think about the audience that's listening, they're probably saying, well, you know, it's all right for those two. You know, they've gone on and achieved greatness. Yeah. What about people who have predominantly lived a stagnant life or haven't really achieved anything that they consider to be big or audacious or great?

Jean Kittson:  I would say, first of all, I'll just challenge you on the word stagnant because most people live lives that have a whole lot going on. 

Layne Beachley: Yes, that's true

Jean Kittson: All the time. 

Layne Beachley: Thank you. 

Jean Kittson: And dealing with lots of stuff. 

Layne Beachley: No such thing as stagnant. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah.  

Layne Beachley: No, not if you're still alive. You're not, you're not being stagnant.

Jean Kittson: But it's a really good word because people encourage you to stagnation as you get older. Yes. They'll give you all these facts about what you can't do any longer or you shouldn't, and your bones and your brain and your reactions. So you're constantly getting this negative thing about ageing. 

You're not actually getting a lot of positive things, you know, facts where you are, you know, Roy, you've got all the facts and evidence. All the evidence seems to be, we should embrace ageing and just, you know, behave our age and sit down and be conversational and put your feet up and wear a dressing gown and listen to marching bands or something. You know, like… 

Roy Sugarman: I have three things to say to that - poo poo poo. 

Layne Beachley: Okay. 

Roy Sugarman: You know, heaven for forbid. Because yeah, the stereotyping and everybody's different. Everybody's life is different. Some people come to me at the end of their working careers and say, I don't believe I've achieved anything, and everything else, and everything else.

So the issue’s across the lifespan – and the rot starts early – is to decide, especially you mentioned earlier, athletes or any human being, decide what's important to you. Self-reflect. It can change from minute to minute, hour to hour in a day, but if you're not being authentic and valid with yourself, you're gonna land up in the psychologist rooms, anxious or miserable.

The first question I ask them is, ‘what's valid and authentic?’ Because when you get miserable after a life of maybe not doing much, what are you really saying is that what happened throughout your life wasn't valid for you, it wasn't authentic for you, and now you are old and you are Kentucky Fried Chicken Kernel Saunders at 65, and you are gonna make chicken.

Well, Mrs. Fields’s husband has walked out the door and she's gonna make cookies. $400 million worth of cookies, you know? So the whole idea is if you are in that stasis, let's call it stasis, rather than… 

Layne Beachley:  Yeah. I love that, statis

Jean Kittson: Yes. Stasis.

Roy Sugarman: Nice word from stagnation. Yes. And if you're not as spritely, bounding around beautifully being spritely, then think about the fact that it's never too late to go and look at what is valid and authentic and what isn't.

Then have the courage to commit yourself to a committed life from that moment on. 

Give you a quick example, and have a client who is a great scientist. He was nominated for Nobel Prizes. God knows what, 84 years old decided it was time to die because all he wanted to do was play the violin [00:38:00] and he was good at it.

So we found this bus in Israel that travels around to schools, introducing kids to classical music, the whole orchestra of old people like him. He spent the last nine years of his life doing that, playing to kids and nevermind his organic chemistry. It was never valid and authentic for him. 

Layne Beachley: What chemistry?

Roy Sugarman: No, his whole life wasn't valid and authentic, but the violin or photography or people [in their] 70s start painting and yes, actually paint beautifully. So why not? 

Layne Beachley: I feel that the beauty in this conversation is inspiring people to embrace the challenge of embracing their passion and connecting with what that is.

Then giving themselves permission to explore that. Without the expectation to be the best in it or to be great at it. 

And perhaps, you know, in childhood and trauma is trauma, pain is pain. We've all experienced moments within our childhood that are still playing out to this day. And if we can start to learn to tap into what those stories are, and there's about seven or eight of them that we keep coming back to, then we can start to disengage from them and detach from them and start to write a different story. 

But if we're allowing old behavioural patterns from childhood to dictate who we are today as an adult, then we are missing out the chance, we are delaying the opportunity to embrace those passions.

And the number one regret of the dying is I wish I had the courage to live a life that I love. 

Roy Sugarman: And that means embracing a narrative that is your narrative. Not your kids, your family, whatever. You tell your own story and you make that story go where you want. It's your narrative, it's your story. And if the story of your last 50 years wasn't good enough, tell another story.

Layne Beachley: Yes. 

Roy Sugarman: And that storytelling of the beginning and the middle and the end is yours to decide. So the courage and curiosity and exceeding the image that is the old story, why not? This is living. 

Jean Kittson: I feel that if you don't sort of confront your fears, either physical or emotional, psychological or spiritual, existential. If you don't confront them, then you're going to live a fearful life, and that's going to really limit you. 

And it's probably going to impact your family too, because as you get older, you may be a grandparent and you may have great influence on your grandchildren. You might have already made all your mistakes with your children, but it's never too late to learn about yourself and how… a better way of living.

Layne Beachley: Well, fears are valid too. 

Roy Sugarman: Yeah, fears are valid and they're acceptable and they're part of life. And there are warning signs like pain, pain and fear, all the same thing. These are warning signs, but we don't have to necessarily live our lives according to them. 

Just think of pain: 30% is dealt with by medication. 70% is psychosocial. So the reason psychologists deal with pain is we've got a 70% window there to help someone get away from chronic pain. 30% is medication, 70% according to [Rachel] Zoffness and other researchers. 70% is the interaction with another human being that normalises the pain and anxiety and the sadness into the here and now.

Now that you have the pain, accept it. What now becomes critical? However, your value shifted. What's important to you now? That's self-reflection. Again, what is important to me, given these circumstances. Yes. You're afraid I'm not worried about that. 

Jean Kittson: Well, that's great to, yeah. Not worried about fear. Not to be fearful of fear. Well, fear…

Roy Sugarman: We have, yes 

Jean Kittson: Yes 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. Best statement by an American president. If you're afraid of fear, you are paralyzed. You are static. 

Jean Kittson: The other thing, I suppose for older people, and I keep saying older people later, life probably is, you know, I could say…

Layne Beachley: Mature? Can you say that?

Jean Kittson: Mature people. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. What is the term? 

Jean Kittson: Well, some of us are mature! I like these… Those of us in later life maybe, rather than older because we don't feel it, is how to maintain a sense of purpose. 

And I know you speak about purpose being, I think I heard you, but please tell me it's values and people with the same values in your life.

Roy Sugarman: That use mastery, like mindedness and growth. 

Jean Kittson: And growth. And that gives you purpose. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. That's the model for the state of California, which is the thing we defend most, is the idea that what we do makes a difference. If we embark on actions that have no outcome for us at all, and we don't enjoy the process, then mastery disappears and a sense of autonomy disappears.

So you can define purpose as this progressive realisation of ‘what I do makes a difference surrounded by people who have the same values as me.’ But the guiding, what is this autonomy? It's around the things that matter to me. So that defines your purpose, right.

Layne Beachley:  So values mastery

Roy Sugarman: Like-mindedness, like-mindedness, you need people around you.

You need your squad who think the same way, need your dreams as you do dreams. You need your team, your squad, you know? 

Layne Beachley: And it was course growth. Growth, of course. 

Roy Sugarman: Yes. Mastery getting better and better at what matters to you, 

Layne Beachley: Right? But if what matters to you is being comfortable, how do you grow in that state?

Roy Sugarman: Well, you get really good at being comfortable, 

Layne Beachley: But if being comfortable is eating food that's not great and sitting on the couch and binge-watching television until like… People give up on life, as they get older. 

Roy Sugarman: They do the easy things. They do the easy that are the wrong things to do because they don't understand they have a choice, 

Layne Beachley: Right

Roy Sugarman: When we get people who are miserable, depressed, whatever, we have to then motivate them. In other words, as you said, inspire some drive in them. But what it is is emotional. So we work on emotional drivers for someone like that. They have to find, you know, the why and then they can get the how. But it's not something we give them.

We are just visiting people's lives. When they change, it is on their own terms. So we help them tell a story, and in that story, they become the hero who gets off the couch, who stops eating for the most part. They have to find that purpose driven by values. So we help them with values. We help them to make the argument.

I can't make the argument for them. I'm just visiting people's lives. 

Layne Beachley: You're just providing the framework. 

Roy Sugarman: Yep. I paint a frame and they do the artwork themselves. 

Layne Beachley: They do the art. 

Jean Kittson: So can you actually, I was, because I was going to ask you, what would you say to people to help motivate them who are thinking of trying a new venture or adventure?

The trying to challenge themselves. What would you say to people who were overcome with: I can't do this. What would each of you say? 

Layne Beachley: I'd like to hear the psychologist for this first. 

Roy Sugarman: So think of the big picture. I take them out of the big picture immediately, because if you're getting older, the big picture is not a good one.

If you're going to look at it because you all go out the same way. Okay. So the whole idea is don't look at the big picture. When you're young. You can look at big pictures 'cause it seems endless. As you get older. You need to look at smaller and smaller bites of pictures, which will still get you.

To the big picture. But if you look at the big picture, your own emotional sense of being overwhelmed comes in quickly. I want this, but it's too hard. Technically, ambivalence. So when they're sitting in my room, obviously they're not happy. When they are happy, well, I don't see them. I leave them alone. 

Layne Beachley: They leave you alone.

Roy Sugarman: Yeah. But obviously, people come when what's happening in their life is not valid for them. And then we have that discussion of, ‘okay, what's gonna be important for you now?’ 

But don't look at the big picture. It's overwhelming and that sense of self-efficacy, that what I do makes a difference – Bandura 1952, whatever it was – that feeling of loss of control, of loss of self-efficacy is the scary thing that we have to address. Because then you're not living life according to values; other people's values are driving you and it's not working. 

Layne Beachley: And if you've lived your whole life according to other people's values, because you're conforming to fit in to belong, which is what our biggest driving force is with every one of us. We wanna belong. We wanna feel safe. If you don't feel safe, then you're gonna continuously find ways to manufacture or create that environment for yourself. 

Jean Kittson: Safety. 

Layne Beachley: Safety. 

Jean Kittson: Yeah. Which might be closing the door. 

Layne Beachley: It might, I mean, it could be

Jean Kittson: Isolating yourself sometimes

Layne Beachley: Yes. And sometimes we all need to

Roy Sugarman: It’s avoidance. 

Layne Beachley: Yeah. It's avoidance. Yeah. Unless you're an introvert. 

Roy Sugarman: Which is good avoidance. 

Layne Beachley: But, I mean, everything comes at a cost, right? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. And I look at, for example, my professional surfing career as when I reflect on those world title campaigns, the cost of doing, of winning world titles with an outcome focused mentality was significant. 

To the point now I'm in my fifties in constant pain management because I didn't listen. The body whispers before it screams, and my body was screaming and I still wasn't tuning in because I had this ‘must win at all cost’ mentality.

And that's what cost us our joy, our connection, our sense of belonging, our sense of self, our health, our wellbeing. I compromised, I sacrificed it because the outcome was more important to me than my health and wellbeing.

My ability to actually achieve the goal was put second. So to this, so to Roy's point about being really clear around who you are and getting outta the outcome driven mentality and just asking yourself what's valuable to me, that's the gold right there. 

Roy Sugarman: And when you look at that big picture that I mentioned earlier, and what you've just said is so critical with every elite person and every ordinary person, when you look at the big picture, what you're seeing is the sacrifices you would have to make. 

Layne Beachley: Yes. 

Roy Sugarman: And that can be really daunting

Layne Beachley: Overwhelming

Roy Sugarman: And that's where your negative emotions come in and you go, that's gonna be too hard. And that's where meaning and values and emotional drivers come in. Because if I'm going to sacrifice, if I'm going to give up things. I love for something I love more, I better be clear on why I'm doing it. 

Jean Kittson: It's really never too late.

I mean, that's the point. There's no, what I'm getting from both of you with the science and the experience, there's no expiry date on pushing ourselves, challenging ourselves. And certainly it'll give us an expiry date if we don't maintain our curiosity and if we don't go out there and, and be true to ourselves.

So I feel like we've just had the most amazing therapy session. I’ve really valued your experience and your expertise, both of you. And thank you for talking, speaking with us all today. Is there anything else you would like to say to add to this, something for the listeners… Is there anything that you would like to say?

Layne Beachley: One last thing I'd like to say, one last piece of advice would be don't let the old person creep in. 

Jean Kittson: Yes. That's such a great expression. I love that expression. 

Roy Sugarman: I saw a video of a 95-year-old choreographer from New York. She said, if you give old age an inch, it takes all of you. And then they said to her, when you're gonna retire, she says, when it's a non-shockable rhythm.

Jean Kittson: That's fantastic. That's really fantastic.  

Roy Sugarman: So thank you so much for having me. Certainly. And 

Jean Kittson: Thank you. 

Layne Beachley: Thank you Roy

Roy Sugarman: Fantastic to have you, Layne. 

Jean Kittson: Thank you Dr. Roy Sugarman, and thank you Layne Beachley. 

Layne Beachley: Thank you, Jane Kittson. 

Jean Kittson: Thank you to this week's guests, Layne Beachley and Dr Roy Sugarman. 

You've been listening to DARE: The time of your life, brought to you by Australian seniors.

Please leave a review and share this show with someone you know. Visit seniors.com.au/podcast for more episodes. 

May your life be DARING. I'm Jean Kittson.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Series 7: Better With Age
Too often ageing is painted as decline. In reality, Australians are living longer, healthier lives and reshaping what “older” looks like. This series flips the script and shows how ageing is not a dirty word but rather a time to be embraced, featuring interviews with extraordinary over 50s refusing to slip quietly into the background.

The podcast is available at seniors.com.au/podcast or 

Watch DARE: The Time of Your Life on YouTube
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For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast
Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency, in conjunction with Myrtle & Pine

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

After life

The question of the afterlife fascinates us all, whether shaped by science, spirituality or something in between. In this episode, we explore what happens at the end of life, and what might follow, in a conversation with psychic medium Debbie Malone and science writer and journalist Bianca Nogrady. 

About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors. 

Join James Valentine for the sixth season of Life’s Booming: Dying to Know, our most unflinching yet. We’ll have the conversations that are hardest to have, ask the questions that are easy to ignore, and hear stories that will make you think differently about the one thing we’re all guaranteed to experience: Death.

From vivid, near-death experiences to the quiet moments before death, this episode looks at how people make sense of the unknown. You’ll hear how psychic mediums describe receiving messages from those who’ve passed, what it feels like to come back from the brink, and how the scientific community approaches questions of consciousness, the soul, and what defines the moment of death.

Debbie Malone is one of Australia’s most recognised psychic mediums, with over three decades of experience connecting people to their loved ones in spirit. As a medium, author and spiritual teacher, she works with individuals and audiences seeking comfort and closure, and has also assisted police on high-profile investigations involving missing persons and unsolved crimes. 

Bianca Nogrady is a journalist, author and science communicator who has spent more than a decade writing about death, dying and what it means to be mortal. Her book The End: The Human Experience of Death explores how cultures, clinicians, and individuals confront the reality of dying, and what we can learn from it.

If you have any thoughts or questions and want to share your story to Life’s Booming, send us a voice note – [email protected] 

Watch Life’s Booming on YouTube   

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For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency, in conjunction with Ampel Sonic Experience Agency

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Disclaimer: Please be advised that this episode contains discussions about death, which may be triggering or upsetting for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised.

If you are struggling with the loss of a loved one, please know that you are not alone  and there are resources available. For additional support please contact Lifeline on 131 114 or Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636.

TRANSCRIPT:

S06EP07 After life

James: Hello and welcome to Life's Booming. I'm James Valentine and this season we're talking about death. In this episode, well, this is a debate that's been going ever since we were alive. What happens after we die? No matter your religion or spiritual beliefs, the question of the afterlife fascinates us all.

James: With the help of my guests, I'll explore everything we know, or perhaps don't quite know, about it from both a spiritual and scientific perspective. Bianca Nogrady is an award winning science journalist and the author of The End, The Human Experience of Death, and Debbie Malone is a psychic medium who felt a spiritual awakening after a series of near-death experiences.

James: Bianca, Debbie, welcome to Life's Booming. So, Debbie, this starts with you. You've had a lot of near-death experiences. 

Debbie: Yes, I have. I had one at three and 13, then I had some, had another two in my early 20s. And then I had a miscarriage and then I woke up and started seeing murders and it was the backpacker murders, [that] was the first thing that I actually saw.

James: What do you mean by seeing them? 

Debbie: I was becoming a victim and I was being, you know, I was being attacked and murdered, in visions and dreams. At the time the backpacker murders was a really big thing on the news and I just thought I was watching TV too much. And then I started to see things before they happened on the news.

I used to work at Fairfax community newspapers and I kept seeing all of these different visions and I spoke to one of the journalists and he said, why don't we do a story about you and just see what happens. And then it ended up, Ivan Milat's girlfriend, Chalinda Hughes contacted the newspaper and wanted to make contact.

And I ended up, consequently, working on the case with the taskforce for quite a few, quite a few years.  

James: Right. I feel I'm automatically going to go a bit glib, but you mean they go, okay, so Debbie, what's happened? What can we expect this weekend? 

Debbie: Yeah. And it's, and it's funny cause it's not like that.

Because it's, and me being the sceptic, all I wanted to do was to shut it down. I didn't want to do anything, have anything to do with it. I'd never had a reading. I didn't, you know, have tarot cards or anything like that. And when it started to happen, at first the police were quite sceptical and I had to speak to a few different officers and then they just said, just keep a diary.

And they said, don't think about what you see, just write it down, put a date down. And when I had enough information, I would send it through to them. I can't say that I have solved cases, it's more like I'm a profiler. So I can see, I can describe things. And the thing is with, when it comes through, it can be the past, it can be the present, or it can be the future. So it's like pieces of a puzzle. It's almost like playing charades in a way. So you're hearing things and seeing things and you try and work it out. 

James: So police weren't sceptical of this. 

Debbie: Oh, some were, some were. And yeah, I've had some challenging experiences with them, but I've had some incredible officers that I've worked with, you know, during the time as well.

And I just thought once I did something with the backpacker murders, it would all go away and I wouldn't have to deal with it anymore. I kind of thought that would be it. 

James: And by all go away, you mean the kind of visions you were having or you, you were getting a sense of, of… Are you, in this sense, are you someone who's seeing the future or are you someone who's seeing glimpses of the afterlife or something like that?

Debbie: All of it. So the victims were coming to me, the two English girls were coming to me, and one of the visions was I could see somebody walking them into the forest, but I couldn't see who he was because I was seeing through his eyes. So they were walking away from me and they were kind of pleading with me to help them and then it would stop and then I would get a wall full of Polaroid images. And then it ended up, most of the images of the Polaroids were the other victims. But at the time, I didn't know. It was only later on when the case, you know, became solved – and some of those faces still haven't been, they haven't been linked to the case, so I think there's so many more.

James: So going back to your near-death experiences. What did you see when that happened? What was your near-death experience? 

Debbie: My most vivid one, when I was 34, I had to have a major operation and I told the doctors that I was going to die and they thought I was being stupid. And I said about the anesthetic and they didn't believe me. Anyway, when I went through, I woke up after the operation and I was in a higher dependency, but they put me on a morphine drip and I didn't know I was allergic to morphine.

So they kept telling me to, you know, push the button. And when I did, I ended up having a lot of really horrible visions to start with, but then I went through to this beautiful place. It was like, it was like a rollercoaster. Like, I love the night sky, and it was like I went up, I felt like I was an astronaut without a craft and I just could see the universe and I felt very calm.

And then it was a lot of movement. The movie Contact for me is very close to my experience. And then I suddenly went into like, I would call it like a black hole. Cause I kind of feel like it was a vortex and I got sucked into it. But then, the movement was getting faster and faster, it's a bit like being on a rollercoaster.

And then I landed in this meadow and everything seemed more colorful than it is here. And the stupid part about it, there was a privet hedge, I remember that. And it was about this tall, and there's this, like this little gate and there were people in front of me and they all went ahead, and then there's people on the other side and they all seemed so happy and you know, it just seems so beautiful and just, I felt so loved and peaceful.

Then I got to my turn to go through the little gate and they said, no, you can't. And I'm a bit like, you know, I'm not the person that pushes in at the deli line. So it's like, you know, it's my turn. I want to go through. And they said, no, no, no, you can't, turn around. So I turned around and it was like, I was up in the sky, and I could see my – it makes me cry nearly every time I talk about it – I could see down that my one-year-old daughter was in my husband's arm, my three-year-old son was beside him and my seven-year-old was there, and the two boys are saying, where's mummy, where's mummy, and he said, mummy's not coming back, mummy's in heaven now.

And then suddenly I fell back down and I'm back into the hospital room and the nurse is shaking me and they're pulling the morphine drip out. And she said, what are you doing? And I said, Oh, you know, I'm going to the light. And she said, not on my shift, it's too much paperwork. [laughter]

James: Oh, the New South Wales public health system, it'll fix you up at any time.

When you did your book, Bianca, did you do, did you talk to people with near-death experience or did you cover that area? 

Bianca: I did. I mean, the aim of my book was really to take, to kind of explore right up to the moment of death, but not beyond because I felt that my skills did not equip me to assess that in any kind of, in any form.

But obviously people with near-death experiences did talk to me and also people who had talked to people with near-death experiences. Because one thing that really struck me with any time I hear stories like that is the people who've had them seem to lose their fear of death. You know, I think we all carry this fear of death in us.

And I think it motivates a lot of what we do, but it, you know, I remember one woman just saying it was just so beautiful; I'm not scared, I'm just not scared of it anymore.  

James: Did you hear any, did people say the kind of detail that Debbie's describing there? I've never heard that. I've heard the light or that sort of thing, or feeling.

I've never heard of such detail. 

Bianca: There was actually a study that was done that looked at a whole range of near-death experiences and tried to, I guess, classify some of the common elements to them and they sort of, that idea of there's a journeying, you know, it's a tunnel, it's driving down a road, maybe a rollercoaster, that there are, there's a journeying process and then there's a decision point.

And at that decision point or junction, there is a sense that what is beyond is wonderful, that it's extraordinary and I want to be there. But then, either somebody says to them, no, it's not your time, there's something that turns them back. And I can't remember whether it's ever something that people, someone makes a conscious decision not to. From memory, people want to go forward, but someone else says, no, this is not your time. And, so, there's a pattern to those experiences, but in terms of the individual things, like I remember, one of the stories was a young soldier in world war… one of the major world wars, you know, who thought he was walking with his friends and then his friends just all kind of, he was just walking down this road and his friends just gradually disappeared.

And, and then I think there was a point where someone said, no soldier, you've got to stop, go back. And so, you know, we bring to it our own circumstance, context, to it. But those features are common in all of them. 

James: But always good? Always in a sense of like going towards something good. This is going to be fine?

Bianca: Well, it's interesting because there is a very small, very small, percentage of people who have horrific experiences, terrifying, terrifying experiences. I didn't hear of any of those stories, I don't know if you've encountered those… 

Debbie: Yeah, I have heard of that. Sometimes it's like they feel that, that movie What Dreams May Come, that Robin Williams was in, that kind of thing – kind of being stuck or earthbound, because a lot of the time when it's, sometimes it's someone who's tried to suicide and that they weren't, they weren't successful. 

James: I wonder if the, the near-death experience is a cultural thing. Like, did you look at that at all? Is it, is that… along the ways in which we talk about it seem to me very Western and almost very English, you know, like we talk about that sort of tradition.

What do the South Americans do? What are the, what do the Germans do? 

Bianca: I think it is a cross-cultural phenomenon that, I mean, there's even, I think the earliest record of a near death, or what we think is a record of a near-death experience is actually from ancient Greece, and it was a description of a warrior.

I don't know if there has been any kind of cross-cultural comparisons around near-death experiences. It would be really interesting. But I think what seems to come out is that it is very unique to that individual, what that experience is in terms of what the, what form the journey takes. 

James: You said Bianca, your book was, you know, I wanted to do up to death. What did you decide death was? 

Bianca: Well, that's a very good question because we don't actually, the definition of death is contested. And it is culturally specific. There are whole conferences that are held, still, on how we define death, and it's incredibly difficult. And the thing is, we don't need to define death unless we are wanting to donate organs. That's essentially the main reason we need a definition of death. We need a legal definition of death, so that if somebody is an organ donor, we know that removing their organs is not actually killing them. 

But it's incredibly complex. It's around the notion of when your heart stops, are you dead? But if your heart stops, we can restart your heart. If you stop breathing, we can re-, we can ventilate you. If your brain stops, how do we measure what brain activity, what's the difference between someone, for example, who's in [an] incredibly deep coma versus someone who might be what we now term as brain dead.

And again, those definitions differ in different countries. I mean, again, if there's no time pressure, such as there would be with something like organ donation, then we do have the luxury of time to be able to wait. But there have been numerous cases where – there was one case in fact, where a surgeon was facing manslaughter charges because [of] a dispute over whether the person was in fact dead when he began to remove the organs. 

And it has very specific applications. There's been legal cases around brain death where two people were involved, a husband and wife involved in a car accident, who died first because that had implications in terms of the inheritance.

And so there have been very complicated cases. And I mean, we talk about, well, brain death, well, loss of activity in the brain. But there is a state of, for lack of a better word, chronic brain death where people… The longest, I think, was somebody who literally survived for a decade and a half, a child who, I think they suffered meningitis, but they were kept on life support, breathing, they went through puberty. And then when they finally decided, we're not going to treat, or the decision was made to cease treatment for pneumonia, for example, which I guess is, you know, usually a common cause of death at that state. And when the autopsy was performed, and sorry this is a little bit brutal, but the brain was essentially calcified. 

So this, this individual was by legal definitions alive, up until that point, but you know, were they there? What had departed from that person? 

James: If the brain is the seed of consciousness, then they could not have been conscious, but then is the brain the seed of consciousness? You know, like all sorts of questions there. 

What do you think death is, Debbie, what's death? 

Debbie: Yeah, it's a hard one because I do believe there is life after, I suppose, the death is the death of the body, but I don't think it's the death of the soul. And I find that that's the thing that lives on and even you can measure it like when you make contact sometimes with spirit, they were an electromagnetic frequency. So EMF testers that you'd use to test a microwave will actually indicate when there's a spirit in the room, you know. 

But, when you're talking about transplants, another thing that I was thinking, I've done readings for people, like a lady who'd had a transplant. So she ended up, she was in a coma, but she had had a transplant from a young man, and it was a lung transplant, I think.

And then she was in a coma and her mum came to see me, to see if like… because when people are in a coma, I can communicate with them even though they are still physically alive. And what was interesting, the person from the transplant came through the reading at the same time as the person who was the recipient.

So it's, and you think, well, he's passed away, but he's living on through her. That, you know, but then he gave life to her to extend her life. So…

Bianca: …I find that fascinating…

Debbie: … that's even like, I suppose that's a whole other story. 

James: Well then. What's the, what's the soul? What's this soul thing that's then hanging around? Where is it hanging around? What is it? 

Debbie: What does it do? 

James: …Do you think there's a reincarnation? 

Debbie: Yes. 

James: Like what, what are you, what are you, what is, you seem to have gleaned a lot of information from the afterlife – let us know what's going on! 

Debbie: Oh, look, I definitely do feel that we, that we do live on. And I'm… One of the things that I do is called psychometry. So from holding or touching something, it's like I can, I can see through my hands, kind of thing. So you can touch an inanimate object, like a piece of jewellery. You can use clothing, but we tend to wash it. But say I went to Scotland and touched the sacred stones and I could see back into the past by touching that or just being in a historical site.

And a lot of people might go to say a battle site or something, and they will feel that energy of sadness or, you know, or it might be a happy place, but you know, we tend to, we feel that. So I do feel that that energy does exist. 

But from my own personal experience, I did, you know, I've had past-life experiences, and one thing I did, I've been under hypnosis quite a lot of times with the police, but I did it to contact someone for a case, but it ended up, it took me back. So I had a past life and it was, I think unless I had my own proof, I would think, you know, I need to see-it-to-believe-it kind of thing.

You know, I have seen things happen and even like children coming through and they know all about their great grandfather who they got their middle name or something so they can talk about them. 

James: Bianca, you're a science writer, you know, you edit science journals. Science, you know – Debbie, you know, this is just rubbish?

Is there, is there, is there much science around this? Do scientists tend to just, you know, poo-poo this stuff? 

Bianca: It's funny. I always think of that, is it that line from Hamlet, there are greater things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. And even though I, you know, I come from a very, I guess, Western scientific paradigm, both of my parents were doctors, I do also, you know, I would define myself as agnostic.

I do have a sense that there is something greater than what we, you know, what exists in this mortal sphere that we find ourselves in. And in some ways, I don't know that it's the place of science to explore that. I think, I mean, certainly with the existing knowledge and technologies we have.

We have no way of necessarily studying this. I mean, what we can do, you know, when we talk about near-death experiences… and, you know, I know that there's been studies looking at using, for example, functional magnetic resonance imaging, which is a kind of imaging where you can look at blood flow in the brain; you can look at areas of brain activity. 

The problem is, you know, that'd be great to study someone having a near-death experience, but how do you get those unique circumstances to happen? 

James: Yes. Can you have one at 10am tomorrow!

Bianca: How do we schedule one? I mean, you know, maybe you could put someone into an induced coma, but I mean, there's obviously ethical challenges with doing that.

There are… We do understand there are parts of the brain that, when kind of stimulated, can generate these kind of ‘sense of the numinous’, a sense of a feeling of other worldliness that our, you know… 

I mean, we are experiencing these things in this body, there will be things that are going on in our brain, that contribute to those emotions that contribute to those sensations.

But whether we can say this is, whether I can say, I don't know, personally, this is purely a function of electrical impulses and neurotransmitters? I can't say that. I can't say yes or no. And I don't think science has the capacity to say yes or no. I think because so much of this is belief, it is faith, which is not to say that it doesn't exist in the same way that, you know, just because someone is mentally ill, that doesn't mean that it's not real. It is real. It is real in every facet that would define realness just because we can't measure it, doesn't mean it's not real. But at the moment we can't measure it. 

James: But Debbie, like you said a couple of times, you know, you can use electromagnetic something or another to measure presence and you can take photos and stuff. You would say actually there is science or there is evidence. 

Debbie: Yeah, there is, I think. 

James: What's that evidence? 

Debbie: Yeah, well, getting the images, I think that's part of it, but I also see when some of it's the communication with the other side, and the proof of what that person in spirit will come through and say that someone like myself wouldn't know that I can relay that to someone, you know. 

James: Give me an example, what happened? 

Debbie: I have a client that I've seen quite a number of times now. He came to see me about his father and he had this little toy bulldog that his dad had given him when he was a little boy.

And the whole time, I didn't know about the dad, I just said, you know, I'm seeing your dad and your dad had a heart attack and he's really worried about you. And he said, Oh yeah, you're going deep sea fishing or going fishing soon, but he's telling me you can't go. And he said, I don't know, I don't know what you're talking about.

I said, he's telling me there's something wrong with your heart. And I could suddenly see into his heart and I could see there was these three blockages. So there was two on the front, one in the back. And I don't propose to be a medical person at all, but I was just relaying what I saw. 

And I said, have you been having any heart problems? He said, no, no, I'm all good – and his wife's a nurse. And I said, look, your dad just wants you to get checked out. And his dad had died of a heart attack. Anyway, I must've said it to him about 20 times in the reading. He says, Oh, for goodness sakes, you just stop it. 

And then he rang me a week later and he said, well, I humored you. And he said, I'm not going on the fishing trip now. I'm in hospital. And they gave him three stints. And one of the blockages was the Widowmaker. And so his father had come from the other side to save his son, you know, and a few times now he sort of said, Oh, have I got any blockages? And another time I'd seen two more and he's, he had two more subsequently.

But, yeah, it's funny. If they were nice before they pass, they can be nice when they go to the other side, but other times they can be horrible. Like, you know, I had a lady who suffered really badly with fibromyalgia. And her mother came through, through in the reading, and she said, I don't want her here. I hate my mother. She's horrible, make her go away. 

And I said, well, you brought her with you. I can't. And anyway, the mother just kept persisting. And I said, look, just listen to what I have to say, she wants to tell you she's sorry and acknowledges how unpleasant she was to you.

And you do what you want to do with it, but you know, I'm just going to pass the message on and then maybe she'll be quiet. 

Anyway, I told her the message and I saw her about a month later, I ran into her at Cronulla, and she said, you won't believe, since I had that reading, I haven't been sick. And she said, I'm finally well. And I said, well, maybe all of that stress was, you know, affecting your health.

Bianca: It's interesting because fibromyalgia, there's much higher incidents in people who've experienced childhood abuse. 

James: Oh! 

Debbie: Oh well, there you go. 

James: Yeah. 

Bianca: Yeah. 

James: It's not. All the time, as you walk down the street, as you're driving the car?  

Debbie: Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes, you know, those roadside memorials can be quite challenging because the person's still standing there, you know, and I think that…

Bianca: …that’s very Sixth Sense!

Debbie: … so yeah, that can make it hard or you can go into an historical location and you know, you might see someone hanging in from the ceiling and things like that.

So people think it's all rosy and fun and happy; it's always pretty busy. 

Bianca: That's the thing, isn't it? We so desperately want to communicate… 

Debbie: …we do… 

Bianca: …with the people we've lost. Like, it's such a deep-seated need. I don't think there's anybody that wouldn't want, couldn't think of someone that they would want to just say, I miss you. I love you. You know, what should I do? It's incredible. 

Debbie: Yeah. And I think, I think the thing is we always, we all want proof. We all hope there's something more. It's just, it's a hard thing because unless you have your own experience, I'm not someone who wants to change everybody's mind. I think you need to have your own experience so that you have your own understanding and then you make your own decision.

James: If there's a spectrum of sensitivity in this kind of way, then you're at one end, I am at the other. Like, I am zero for any sense of spirituality, other sideness, afterlife, nothing. Like I am just zero. Where would you sit, Bianca? 

Bianca: Um, well, it's hard to know how much is wishful thinking, for me. I mean, I didn't grow up in a religious household, I don't subscribe to any religion. As I said, agnostic. I think I would like to think… 

James: Have you ever had any moment? Like I have never had a single moment that says to me either, there's God, or there's anything, or there's any spirit, which doesn't mean I'm skeptical of your experience.

Like, there's lots of other things I haven't experienced either, you know what I mean? Like, I've grown old enough to understand that!

But it's like, I'm fascinated by you, to be quivering like a reed in the wind, but this sort of thing, where I'm just sort of, I'm just a buried stump.

Bianca: You're a brick! 

I have never had any experience that I couldn't explain as being merely a product of my emotions and wishful thinking. You know, I had two wonderful grandmas who were both very different and who I adored and I like to think, you know, there are some moments that I've had where, you know, I've been really upset by something and I sort of, you know, I like to feel that they're there. I draw comfort from the sense of them not watching over me – because that just sounds gross – but just, you know, they are there. 

And, you know, I was talking to my son about this last night and, you know, when people die, my view is when people die, they live on in us. I mean, it's so trite, it's so Hollywood, but they do, you know, I think often about my two, my Onya and my Nan, you know, I imagine what they would think of my kids who they never met, for example, or what, you know, what they would do in this situation.

So they're very much alive in some way, in my heart – God, it sounds like I'm writing a film; it's a Hallmark card – but it's, yeah, I would say there is nothing I have ever experienced that would be anything like what you experience. And again, I'm not to say that those things aren't real. It's again, not been my experience that wasn't just a function of love and grief.

James: Writing a book on death. How has that left you? How's that, how's that altered your feelings about death? What is your relationship to death now? 

Bianca: It made me less afraid of dying, in the sense of it being an end of life. I mean, who knows how it will happen, but it made me less frightened of what that's going to be like. Because that was initially what prompted the book, I was with my nan about half an hour before she died and she was clearly dying, she wasn't, she was unconscious. 

And you know, I was in the room with my cousins and sort of left there thinking, I wonder what that was like for her. What is she going through? Was she in pain? Could she hear us? So really the book was an attempt to answer those questions. So having done that, there were many aspects that I think, yeah, you know, it's probably not the most fun thing.

I think there was one palliative care doctor who said, look, it's probably like the worst flu and hangover you've ever experienced. Well, you know what? I've had the flu and I've had some pretty horrendous hangovers. So if that's it, I can deal with that. I think for me, the fear around death is leaving my children and my husband.

And I know that they would go on and be fine, they would cope, but it's the idea of them growing up without me and me not being there when they grow up, that scares me. But you know, they're getting older and I sort of, I'm more of the view that, okay, you know what? If I was to depart for whatever reason at this point in my life, I know they’d be okay.

And so the fear for me is lessening as I get older. And I've had a good life. So, you know, I see that with my dad, he's had a good life, he's outlived a whole lot of, you know, his historical ancestors, and he's got a great kind of collection of kids and grandkids. So, yeah, I think I am content with my life. So it holds fewer fears for me now. 

James: What's your relationship to death, Debbie? 

Debbie: I'm not frightened at all to pass, but I think the most important thing for me is to create memories while I'm here, because I believe that we leave our memories behind with our loved ones, and then we also take them with us when we go to the other side.

You know, and I think it's nice to have those thoughts. And you know, we do have these experiences with our loved ones around us. We have them every day and a lot of us take it for granted. We've got the six, I'm sorry, we've got eight psychic senses, but we've got the five normal senses, but they actually work and coincide with it.

And there's one called ‘clairalience’, where we smell things. So sometimes you might smell grandma's perfume or you might smell someone's smoke, and there's no one around, and you go, that's my imagination. But that's actually one of the psychic ‘clairs’. You know, we can have ‘clair’ touch, when we touch something, and we feel something from it. You might be touching grandma's watch or, you know, and we get a memory from that. 

You know, the smells, the sounds – we get sounds through the music or their voices. Or you have visions, there's so many different things. And we get it in our hearts. So clairempathy and clairsentience, those gut feelings that something's wrong.

When you were talking to me before and asking me, was there anything there, there was a big whoosh of sort of cold energy that sort of appeared in the room, and then it's gone again

James: That’d be me!

Debbie: [laughter] But I think, for me, I'm not frightened of death. I'm the same as you; it's leaving your children behind and knowing they'll be all right, but also wanting them to know, we want them to know that our love lives on. I think that's the important thing and how loved they are. 

James: Could you die tomorrow? 

Debbie: Yeah, I could. Yeah, I had a really, the last really big near-death experience was in 2018. I was falsely diagnosed with carcinoid lymphoma and I was told I probably only had six months to live.

And I was going through all the tests, getting, you know, lung washes and, you know, gastroscopes to see where the cancer had been. And then finally they gave me a PET scan and I didn't know… I'm allergic to a lot of things.

Anyway, I had the PET, had the injection, was fine. They stuck me in a dark room. Next thing you know, I felt myself coming out of the chair, went above the earth and it was like, again, I was above the earth. So it seems to be for me, that's part of the story. 

But then I felt these like angelic beings around me and they kind of calm me down cause I could feel my heart going. Because after the injection, I could feel the burning go from my arm up into my brain, I felt my brain was on fire, went to my feet and then came back, and I just thought, I'm going, and I just thought, this is it.

And then a nurse came in because they put me in a dark room, just left me. And then, I rang the buzzer, no one came. Anyway, the nurse came in and said, are you all right? And I said, no. And she said, just drink this. And she walked off and I was like, oh, okay. Then they put me in and I had the CAT scan and the guy was – cause they'd rushed me in, so I was a late Friday night one – and the guy sort of had a go at me afterwards. And he says, well, that was a waste of time. You've wasted my time. And I was like. What? And he says, there's nothing wrong with you. What are you here for? And it was like, it was just really weird. And then he sort of turned everything off and I had to find my way down three floors because I couldn't see properly because of the injection.

And I was really sick for about three weeks and couldn't see properly. And then after that, it all came back normal. So I don't know what happened, but I'm pretty grateful for that. But yeah, I figure I might only have two more goes like a cat, so I'm just going to make the most of what I've got! 

Bianca: Yeah, yeah. 

James: Probably wise, yeah. Try and land on your paws. What a fascinating conversation. I'm very hopeful that all of us, you know, are not going to die tomorrow, or anywhere soon, anytime soon. But yeah, fantastic to investigate all of this with you. And thank you so much for being part of Life's Booming. 

Bianca and Debbie: Thanks for having us… for having us on. 

James: Thanks to our guests, Bianca Nogrady and Debbie Malone. 

You've been listening to season six of Life's Booming, Dying to Know, brought to you by Australian Seniors. 

Please, leave a review or tell someone about it. Head to seniors.com.au/podcast for more episodes. May your life, and your afterlife, be booming.

I'm James Valentine.

ENDS

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

LIFE’S BOOMING SERIES 6: Dying to Know

Episode 6: Finding the funny side

Many of us are embracing more humour following the death of a loved one. But how do we make space for laughter without feeling like we’re getting it wrong? Comedian Michelle Brasier and grief counsellor Marianne Bowdler share their experiences.

About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors. 

Join James Valentine for the sixth season of Life’s Booming: Dying to Know, our most unflinching yet. We’ll have the conversations that are hardest to have, ask the questions that are easy to ignore, and hear stories that will make you think differently about the one thing we’re all guaranteed to experience: Death.

In this episode, we explore the psychology behind our fear of death and how humour can help us face it. From heartfelt eulogies that land a laugh to finding the line between lightness and respect, we look at how Australians are using comedy to cope, connect and heal.

Michelle Brasier is an award-winning comedian, writer and performer known for her sharp wit, musical talent and deeply personal storytelling. After losing both her father and brother to cancer, Michelle channelled her grief into her stage show Average Bear (on ABC iview), and book My Brother's Ashes are in a Sandwich Bag, which blend humour, vulnerability and hope. 

Marianne Bowdler is the clinical services manager at Griefline, where she supports Australians experiencing grief, loss and trauma. She draws on years of experience to explain how laughter, when used thoughtfully, can offer relief, connection and healing.

If you have any thoughts or questions and want to share your story to Life’s Booming, send us a voice note – [email protected] 

Watch Life’s Booming on YouTube   

Listen to Life's Booming on Apple Podcasts 

Listen to Life's Booming on Spotify 

For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency, in conjunction with Ampel Sonic Experience Agency

--

Disclaimer: Please be advised that this episode contains discussions about death, which may be triggering or upsetting for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised.

If you are struggling with the loss of a loved one, please know that you are not alone  and there are resources available. For additional support please contact Lifeline on 131 114 or Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636.

TRANSCRIPT:

S06EP06 Finding the funny side

James: Hello and welcome to Life's Booming. I'm James Valentine and this season we're talking about death, but it's not all doom and gloom. On this episode we're going to embrace the funny side of grief. Forty-seven percent of the over 50s want to embrace more humor following the death of a loved one, according to an Australian senior's cost of death report.

Helping us navigate this somewhat confusing terrain are two women who've built their careers around talking about death in very different ways. Marianne Bowdler is a grief counsellor and clinical services manager at Griefline, who's worked extensively supporting marginalised communities through bereavement, attachment and loss.

And Michelle Brasier is a comedian, writer and actor. Her frank and fearless brand of cabaret comedy has never made death funnier and has taken her all the way to Broadway. Marianne, Michelle, welcome to Life's Booming. 

James: What's Griefline? Who calls? 

Marianne: Griefline, we interpret grief very broadly. So grief is any response to a loss. So we lose lots of things, don't we? Might be, you see a house flooding down the river after a flood, could be redundancy, could be bankruptcy, might've lost your keys, the dog might've gone missing, so anything. 

James: Do people think to call you in that sort of thing? 

Marianne: More and more they do, more and more, and also ecological grief, which is that kind of nostalgia that we have for how the climate used to be.

Michelle: Oh no. Right. Yeah, right. 

Marianne: And the landscape that was. And the beach that used to be at Byron. 

James: Yeah, so it's sort of an existential grief. 

Marianne: Grief is existential. 

James: Yeah, yeah. And then what, what can you offer? What happens when I call? 

Marianne: It's that annoying concept, isn't it? We hold space. It's about listening without judgment.

And it's about enabling people to actually shine a torch into the darkness of the sorrow and the anguish that they might be experiencing. 

James: Yeah. 

Marianne: I mean, I think a lot of times you might be a young mom and you can't really be grieving because you've got to look after the kids. There's lots of times when you can't express your grief and it's quite helpful to be able to talk to a neutral third party who can be supportive. 

James: Yeah. There'd be cultural issues as well in some cases. Yes. And who's on the end of the line, like who's listening? 

Marianne: Our lovely band of volunteers. Yeah. So we have hundreds of volunteers and oftentimes it's someone who's been through a significant grief experience and therefore they know what it's like and they want to support somebody else.

Or it might be students who are trying to learn something a bit beyond psychology, a bit more about existential things. 

James: Yeah. 

Michelle: Hmm. 

James: Michelle, you know about grief? 

Michelle: I know about grief. I'm an old hat at grief for such a young dog. I, yeah, I talk about this publicly all the time, but to do a little recap, we talk about this all the time.

You and I, but I, my father was diagnosed when I was 18, with cancer and he died a week later. And shortly after that, my brother was diagnosed with a similar cancer and he died a few months later. And, I am now… assumed Lynch syndrome, which is a genetic… what's the word I'm looking for?

Mutation. Yeah. Predisposition. It's a predisposition, to certain types of cancers. and so I'm always being poked and prodded and things, and getting things, you know, cut out, and early intervention, which is really lovely, but it means that grief has become a good friend of mine. And I make shows about all kinds of things, but one of my most successful shows, that you can watch on ABC iView that became my book, is called Average Bear.

And it's about, it's about grief, but it's also about hope. And I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that grief is always a bad thing. And I think that it's a really wonderful way through something in a really wonderful way to honour something. So I try to make shows that are funny about things that are sad.

James: Yeah. What did you even know of grief? I mean, there you are, 18, 19 years old. I mean, I'm thinking of 18, 19-year-old me. I wouldn't have had a clue. I would never even know what it was. 

Michelle: I didn't know anything. I mean, I hadn't, my nan had passed away, but she'd had Alzheimer's for my whole life. And she died when I was quite young, oo I didn't really have any experience of grief except the dog. And even the dog, I had been told had gone to the farm, classic. 

James: Right. 

Michelle:And I truly thought that the dog had gone to the farm until I was about 26. And I went, Oh no! [laughter] But yeah, so I hadn't really had any, any life experience of grief. I hadn't really had any life experience at all.

I mean, of course, I think, you know, it really hit me in the face. I had just gotten out of hospital myself cause I'd been in a fire, and had had third degree burns and had to learn to walk again. And I was surrounded by a lot of grief there, but I didn't know it was right around the corner for me. I saw people lose people all the time.

And I was, you know, starting to wise up that maybe the world wasn't quite so simple, but when I lost my dad so fast, grief became a very fast, you know, friend and a big element of my life and something I was so interested in, because my friends weren't going through it. It was very strange. I think when you're young and you lose somebody.

If you are the first one in your friendship group, it can be really isolating or you can choose to, you know, oh yeah. Make it a place of fun. 

Marianne: It’s like you joined a club you didn't want to…

Michelle: …the Dead Dad Club, as I call it. Yeah, yeah.

James: Yeah, yeah. But you had no prep for it. I mean, it'd be something if you had cancer for a few years.. 

Michelle:…Yeah.

James: You know, you'd, you'd have a chance to talk to you your mother about it, everybody about it, start to realise this was going to happen. You know, it must have been just like some, it'd be like a disease itself, wouldn't it? 

Michelle: Well, it is. I mean, I think it just happens when it does happen so fast like that, it was an assault on the senses. And I have a chapter in my book that's called ‘the actual stages of grief’ because that's how I've experienced it.

And I talk about how the world becomes small, like the world just closes in and you find yourself, you know, just assaulted by all these ideas and they don't feel real until you finally eat a piece of pizza again. And, you know, I think it, it was a really fast introduction into perspective and a really quick, life lesson in being curious and trying to open yourself up to as many experiences as you can because you don't know how long you have. And I mean, dad was just that, that was the canary in the coalmine.

I didn't know it was going to lead to my brother and all the, you know, we didn't realise it was like a first domino. I was like, Oh, this is the bad thing that happens in my life. It didn't feel like a marker, but now it's very clear that that was the point where my life changed and continued to sort of tumble on down.

But I'm still really grateful for, you know, the things that I've learned from grief and the way that I've learned to, to honour people. 

James: Yeah. Marianne, can we prepare for grief? I mean, is it something that, it should be something that's part of all of our lives that we think about what this might mean, or is it just something that you, you're going to have to experience it when it happens?

Marianne: It's spectacularly unhelpful to say the dog's gone to the farm. 

James: Yes. [laughter]

 Michelle: Mum? Are you listening?!

James: But I suppose that's not a bad place to start, is it? People often feel like having the guinea pig or the dog is a good way to teach children about death.  

Marianne: Exactly. And it's, how do you have those conversations? I think very little children are quite interested and curious about death because you find like a dead beetle or a dead bee and you're like: what is life that now has departed from this dead beetle or what have you. 

And it sort of disappears for a bit and then it comes back in the teenage years where you can get, you know, very emo and nihilistic and want to get skulls and crossbones tattooed. 

James: Grandma dies when you're a teenager. 

Marianne:  …yeah…

James: …That's not uncommon. That's about the age.  

Marianne: And I think it's more helpful now because we tend to take the children to the funeral. Whereas back in the day when children were really excluded from any of the processes around death, or even from going to visit grandma in hospital, we don't want your memory of her to be with all the tubes and what have you.

And then it's just not real. And you try and explain to your young child and they're like, Yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. But is she coming to my birthday? 

James: Yeah. 

Marianne: There's that sort of, you didn't quite get it. 

James: But I feel like that's, that's, that's learning about death, not necessarily about grief.

Grief is what you're going to feel, that, you know, grief is the price we pay for love or grief is, you know, when you're still trying to love, but the person isn't there. Like those are the things you can't know that until it's your mum that dies or your wife that dies. Right. 

Marianne: Well, I think literature can help, we, you know, develop our empathy from reading, but really nothing prepares you till you go through it.

Michelle: I think even the grief of losing a relationship can be really hard. Any grief, your first experience of grief, and I think it's just wonderful to have someone on the other side of it who can say, I went through it. Here's how it felt. Here's what the aftermath was like. Here's what it was like when all the flowers died and people stopped bringing lasagna and they forgot that I was grieving and they moved on.

Here's what that pocket is like, and here's what it's like five years after. And here's what it's like 10 years after. And that's what I think the stories bring in value is going, Hey, it's fine. And here it is. And I survived and here's how. Day to day, here's how. I think that's really beautiful because I remember just going, how am I ever going to be okay?

How is this going to be okay? And calling people that I knew that were older than me who had lost people and saying, can you just please tell me it's going to be okay and tell me why and tell me examples of how it's okay. 

Marianne: And then the only downside of that is that you can get this sort of narrative of this is the way to grieve. And then what we hear are many stories that people have different ways of grieving. 

James: Yeah. 

Marianne: Yeah. It's not, not everybody, like when I grieve, I kind of cry a river and then get a headache. 

James: Right. 

Marianne: Wish that weren't true, but that's, that's just it, but not everybody does that. 

James: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this was this, you know, Elizabeth Kübler Ross was very popular and talked about for many years with the seven stages of, of grieving, but there is no fixed… you might be angry for a minute, you might be angry for a week, you know, like there's nothing fixed about it, is it?

The duration, neither the duration nor the order. 

Marianne: Exactly. And you might feel all the emotions all at the same time. 

James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Michelle: Or none of them.

Marianne: Or none of them. 

Michelle: And that's something that a lot of people don't talk about as well. 

James: Yeah. 

Michelle: You might feel just numb for quite a time, and that's okay. Like there's nothing wrong with that.

It is, it is an interesting thing to go through, but such a beautiful and human thing. I mean, I love how we make meaning of things that aren't necessarily meaningful as, as people. And I think that's how we add value to our lives. And honour those who have died, but yeah… 

James: When you say that, what do you, do you mean we will make meaning out of; do you mean we're making meaning out of grief because grief is very meaningful, isn't it?

Michelle: Well, just meaning out of the little things. So like taking control of your story, and I suppose this is my experience, but I always tell the story of my, when my father was dying and he had been diagnosed with cancer and I had just learned to walk again and got out of the hospital. And I had this feeling that I should go home to my country town where my dad lived.

I was just like, I just feel like I should go. I feel like something's gone wrong because they'd said to us, there'll be another Christmas, which is another thing you go, okay, and that's a bargain. You go, okay, all right, great. I'll be at least another Christmas. And I had this feeling in the middle of the night that we weren't gonna get another Christmas, and then I, we weren't gonna get another 24 hours.

And I got in the car and I drove, and my brother called me in the middle of the night and said, I've, you know, I've just gotten back to Wagga. We've booked you on the first flight. Dad's asking for you. He's not good. And I was like, you can cancel the flight, I'm in Albury, I'm an hour away. I just knew. And I'm not religious.

I'm not, you know, I don't necessarily think I'm super spiritual or anything like that, but I make meaning where there is none in that I felt I had to be there. And so I was there. And when I say there is none, it's because I would have been on the first flight in the morning anyway, and I would have seen him and I would have got to say goodbye anyway.

But there is so much beauty and poetry in driving through the night because I had a feeling and it could have meant nothing. It could, he could have not gone and he did. He went the next day. But that's where we put meaning, you know, as somebody who's not religious, I can see the value of religion and the value of faith and going, Well, I don't have necessarily religion or faith, but I have this meaning in stories, you know, it's that it's the meaning and then the humor that undercuts all that meaning.

And I think that's what makes it human. And that's what makes it special. 

James: Yeah. Marianne, you know, perhaps we can only learn to grieve when it happens to us. We could learn, we could all learn to deal with other people's grief, right? As a society, are we well equipped with dealing with the grieving? 

Marianne: Kind of saying, no.

James: Well, something we'll leave in question. 

Michelle: So polite of you.  

Marianne: Yes. Because our statutory bereavement leave is only two days. 

Michelle: Is it? Yeah. I don't have a real job, so I don't know these things. 

Marianne: Yeah. So that's not. 

Michelle: Two days? 

Marianne: Two days. And so workplaces struggle to know how to support people. We do trainings for like work, you know, how to support your colleagues, how to support the teammates, how to cope in the office.

A lot of, there's a lot of interest because people just like, we don't know, we don't know how to support the team. 

James: So, you know, I'd struggle to know whether to say something or not. I didn't, probably don't want this mentioned in the workplace, but then I should have said something and then it's all too late.

Michelle: But I don't think it's ever too late. And I think that it's the struggle that's about you. It's not about the person who's grieving and you can go to a person and just say, Hey, Would you like to talk about this, or would you like to leave it? That's not going to make a person cry, and if it is, they're so close to crying that they're going to cry anyway, and that's fine.

There's nothing wrong with crying. We sort of want to just hold it. It's a Britishness in us, I think. We just want to hold these emotions in. I just think we can't treat people who are grieving, or who are dying for that matter, with cotton gloves, we can't, you know, and that's why I make these shows for people to come and laugh.

And I have so many audience members who are actively dying and they come and they're like, tonight might be the night. Let's go. I was like, yes, like, let's have a laugh. If you only have 24 hours left, the least I can do is give you a laugh. Like, I think that we need to invite people into grief and into dying.

And, you know, it's the problem with our society is that we go, Ooh, and, you know, people who are dying so often – and I'm sure maybe you even have this experience – but people get diagnosed with cancer and people just back off because they don't want to say the wrong thing. People aren't going to be upset with you for saying the wrong thing.

They're going to be upset with you for disappearing in that tiny little period where they needed you the most. You'll get it wrong and that's fine. They'll tell you how to do it right. And you'll fix it like an adult, grow up. 

James: That is a fundamental thing, isn't it? We're too scared of getting it wrong. I'm sorry for your loss.

Oh God. Was that terrible thing to say? Like maybe, maybe it is a terrible thing to say, but it's better than not saying anything. 

Marianne: Or, or in the workplace, where everybody's looking at the children's photos from the holiday and then the colleague whose child died.

And the colleague will say, you know, I think about my child every moment of every day. It's not like you've done something to remind me. I'm fully aware. Michelle: Yeah. I know my kid is dead. Yeah. I don't need you to remind me. I know. It's okay. I already know. 

Marianne: And the best things you can just say is, I've got your back.

James: Mm. But I suppose this is the kind of thing we could all help one another with, isn't it? Yeah. This, this could, we could be, we could all be a little more instructed in this. 

Marianne: And I think there were, perhaps if you look at the like English, Victorian tradition, it's like now they're wearing black. Now they've got a little bit of purple. Now they've got jet jewelry. There were all these signifiers that let us know how far, you know, how long ago the mourning process started, we don't know anything, we can't tell by looking at a person, what happened last week, what happened 10 years ago. 

Michelle: yeah.

James: Does humor help? 

Marianne: Absolutely. We would look at the distress, if you're just going to go a bit sciencey, the distress that you experience in grief is called situational distress. You know, a thing happened, then you got distressed. And part of that would be a very low mood, for example. If you do nothing to break the low mood, that can run into depression and that can run into a major depressive 

But the best thing that will kind of, it doesn't take away the distress exactly, but it ruptures that, is comedy, is having a laugh, because it alleviates the mood, it alleviates the tension, you feel more connected and certainly in a comedy show, you just feel connected to everybody else in the room.

Michelle:Yeah. 

James: And you, you went, I mean, you went to it – it is you, isn't it? I mean, I'm the same. I tend to talk in humor. You know, that's my tone. My predominant tone is to try and be funny. And so therefore, whatever happens, you know, I had cancer. I was automatically making jokes about it. I still do, you know. So you, but is it more than that?

Is it more than just your way of speaking, your way of being? 

Michelle: I think it, yeah, I think it is, you know, that second nature. You can't, if you're a clown, you're a clown, you can't turn it off and you shouldn't turn it off unless you want to. But I also, back on the sciencey stuff, you know, there, there is such a similar physiological response that we have to crying as we do when we're laughing or when we're singing. It's just, it's our release, it's, you know, all this vagus nerve stuff, just getting it out. A release is so valuable. And if that release can be laughter, you're not going to get a headache, as quickly as you will with the, with the tears and show it, maybe it comes along with the tears and maybe they're, they need to be friends and they need to, you know, be together.

Um, and you know…

Marianne: …it's the catharsis

Michelle: It's the catharsis and we need it as, as animals, we need it. So I think that's why it's so… 

James: It's also the truth as well. Like, I think, you know, some of the best laughs you'll have is at a funeral. 

Michelle: Oh my God, yeah.  

James: Because you will tell each other truths about the person and about your relationship to them, and somebody will start telling you a story and you'll go, Oh my God, they never told the story like that. You know, like…

Michelle: …Yes, exactly. 

James:…All those sort of things. It's fantastic, you know. It's the, you know, humour is often truth telling. 

Michelle: And the reason it's so funny is because it breaks the tension of this wild ritual of funerals that we have, that is, it doesn't really suit us as a society. It's somebody speaking on a microphone that doesn't really work and they don't know how to use the microphone.

They're making a speech. They're not a good speech writer. They shouldn't be making a speech. Somebody else should be making a speech. It's never going well. And that's kind of funny. My dad's funeral was excellent. He went, he'd made, we'd made this playlist of his favorite songs for him to be carried out of the church too.

Unfortunately, there was like a bit of a mix up and that playlist didn't play when he was carried out of the church. It played as he was lowered into the ground in the cemetery, which would have been fine had the first song not been ‘Ring of Fire’ by Johnny Cash. And it was the funniest thing that's ever happened in my family was in hysterics.

Everybody else taking it very seriously. Didn't know what to do. Didn't know how to touch it, trying to keep it away. But the rest of us, the ones who really, really knew him and really loved him were in there having a laugh because it was like, this is absurd. 

James: He would have loved it. 

Michelle: He would have loved it.

And death is absurd. And so is life, and that's fine. You know, I think we just need to go gentle with ourselves and with the people that we're trying to help, but gentle with ourselves in our own approach to it, you know, let yourself have a laugh, you deserve it, it's hard. 

James: Yeah. I sometimes think that death is the ultimate joke because we, we live like it's never going to happen.

So here’s, all of us live every single day as though we are never going to die. How do you think people react to you, you know, like, I'm thinking of, you know, ‘Lasagna won't bring back my dead dad’, your famous song about the fact that, you know, while grieving you'll get a lot of, a lot of lasagna.

Michelle: Yeah. 

James: How do people react? Like, have you had people just go, this is too much, I can't, I can't deal with this. 

Michelle: I've never had that reaction. And I've done the show so many times, people have watched it on TV and I've never gotten a DM saying this is rude or this is wrong, you know, disrespectful. It's always the people in the show, like the people who have grieved that think it's the funniest.

I even say after I do the song in the show, I say if somebody next to you is laughing quite loudly at that, I'd like you to turn to them and say sorry for your loss.. 

James: Yeah. 

Michelle: Because that's, you know, it is, it's universal. It's so universal. Yeah. so no, I've never had somebody complain about me not taking death seriously enough.

James: Has it helped you? 

Michelle: Yeah!

James: Yeah. 

Michelle: If I didn't have humor, if I took myself seriously, I would be terrified every moment. I'm already terrified. Look at the news. Yeah. You know. 

Marianne: Don't look at the news. 

Michelle: Yeah. Sorry. That was bad advice. Don't look at the news. but do vote well. but I just think, you know. I don't know who I would be if I, if I took things seriously, if I took myself seriously, I would have such a difficult time and I'm already stressed about every lump and bump.

And you know, it's, it's really scary. I'm scared of dying, but it means that I think I live my life like I am going to die tomorrow. And I, that's the gift that I've been given by grief, but I also… 

James: …and by your own diagnosis, I mean, we should just emphasise that again, you are living with the threat that the same thing that happened to your brother and father can happen to you.

Michelle: Yes, exactly. And I think knowing that – even though everyone could be hit by a bus tomorrow and it really doesn't make me any more likely than anyone else at the end of the day – but it's a gift, it's a gift, the gift of perspective of knowing that like, you're only here for a short time, so you might as well make it a good time.

And that's true of anyone. It doesn't matter if you live to a hundred, it's probably still going to feel short. Well, if you're lucky it’ll feel short. 

James: But that's, I mean, we kind of know that, but we don't really live like that, do we Marianne? 

Marianne: We don't, but there's good reason to think that we should. In the world of grief literature, we talk about the loss of the assumptive world.

James: The assumptive world.  

Marianne: The assumptive world. As a child, we assumed it would always be a Sunday afternoon and we'd go home and have Tim Tams. And everything would be the same day after day. And then the first time you sort of meet death, it's like the rug’s been pulled out from under you and you can't assume that anymore.

And then suddenly you're unsafe and you panic. But I think what's a curious moment for all of us was the pandemic gave the whole world and everybody, we all collectively lost the assumptive world at the same time. So now we're sort of on shakier ground. but when we come back to just each and every one of us, yes, I think it's helpful to understand that we are mortal.

James: Yeah. 

Marianne: And when you get your head around that. Then you can, I think, fully be present in the moment and enjoy things. 

James: But that's always what a lot of people will say about the pandemic years is perhaps, particularly that first year, particularly if you weren't in Melbourne, but particularly that first year was sort of like, isn't this great?

We're all living this together. We are all now understanding that we're very mortal and can be threatened. Oh my Lord, our governments are all working together, but it almost seems it's like, as soon as we could get over that and forget all that, we did. 

Marianne: Yeah, we did. 

Michelle: You know, I think we just, we're looking for someone to blame.

I mean, not to get into that sort of existential divided society crisis that we're in currently, don't look at the news, but, yeah, COVID was interesting to see how people reacted to it, and the grief. I talk about this in my book as well. I say, I was born at the end of history because I was a 90s kid and they were calling it the end of history.

They were like, the war is done. The wars are done. We're done doing the wars. We're doing peace now. We're smarter than that. We've sorted it out and you can be whatever you want to be. And this is before we knew my generation wasn't going to be able to afford a house. And we really were promised… and it's why I've been successful in my career.

Cause my parents were like, yeah, I guess you can do whatever you want now. That's what they're saying. And I was like, well, I believe you, which I'm lucky I did and sort of followed my nose to where I've gotten. But I think there is an enormous amount of collective grief in every generation, but I think it really, like, hits my generation very hard because we, we can't believe we were lied to, like, you know! 

And I think we were feeling that, and then COVID came and I think everyone sort of started to feel that, but I mean everyone's different, has their own set of circumstances and I'm speaking very generally, but it is difficult. 

Marianne: But across the board, anxiety went up, especially of your generation. And some people would think that what lies underneath all anxiety is death anxiety.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. I think that's really true. It's definitely my main anxiety, you know. 

James: Yeah. You know, we've been talking about grief as, you know, it's, it's something I suppose we probably always sort of these sort of emotions as something that define us, define humanity. That's what makes us human.

We've had all those stories of sort of like elephants grieving and things, haven't we? 

Marianne: Yeah, absolutely. Or, and you see it with your pets as well, they'll go searching for the person who's not there. 

Michelle: Yeah, you should let your dog sniff a dead person, or the other dead dog. You should do that so they know what's happened.

James: Yeah, yeah. 

Marianne: And last year I read that blue tongued lizards grieve, which I'm still very touched by that. 

Michelle: It's beautiful. 

Marianne: Yeah. It was a lizard was trapped on a fence and died and the mate just stayed with it for I think three or four days.  

James: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So everything does. 

Marianne: So not just mammals. 

James: Yeah, not just mammals, the cold-blooded ones do, too. 

Michelle: That's beautiful. Do you think mosquitoes are grieving? 

James: Oh, totally. 

Michelle: Got a lot to apologise for.  

James: Yeah, that's right. So, when you whack one, just go, sorry. 

Michelle: I know. I'm sorry. Sorry for your loss.. 

James: That's really sad. 

Marianne: That should cover it.

Michelle: That should sort it.

James: Marianne, thank you so much. 

Marianne: Thank you. 

Lovely conversation. Michelle, lovely. Thank you. 

Michelle: Thank you so much. 

James: Well, thanks to our guests, Marianne Bowdler and Michelle Brasier. You've been listening to season six of Life's Booming, Dying to Know, brought to you by Australian Seniors. Please leave a review or tell someone about it.

Head to seniors.com.au/podcast for more episodes. May your life be booming. I'm James Valentine.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

With most people now preferring to focus on celebrating life rather than mourning at funerals, we explore the new ways people are choosing to commemorate loved ones, and hear first hand experience of what it's like to grieve in the public eye, with acclaimed author Blanche d’Alpuget, widow of former Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke, and experienced funeral and life celebrant Evelyn Calaunan.

About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors. 

Join James Valentine for the sixth season of Life’s Booming: Dying to Know, our most unflinching yet. We’ll have the conversations that are hardest to have, ask the questions that are easy to ignore, and hear stories that will make you think differently about the one thing we’re all guaranteed to experience: Death.

Featuring interviews with famous faces as well as experts in the space, we uncover what they know about what we can expect. There are hard truths, surprising discoveries, tears and even laughs. Nothing about death is off the table.

Blanche d’Alpuget is an acclaimed Australian author and the widow of former Prime Minister Bob Hawke. In this episode, Blanche reflects on public and private rituals of mourning, what it means to say goodbye well, and how grief reshapes us. Her latest novel, The Bunny Club (her first murder mystery), is out now.

Evelyn Calaunan is a celebrant who has conducted more than 600 ceremonies, including living funerals that are heartfelt gatherings held before death to honour a life while the person is still present. Drawing on her background in palliative care and community work, Evelyn helps individuals and families create ceremonies that are deeply personal. 

If you have any thoughts or questions and want to share your story to Life’s Booming, send us a voice note – [email protected] 

Watch Life’s Booming on YouTube   

Listen to Life's Booming on Apple Podcasts 

Listen to Life's Booming on Spotify 

For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast 

Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency, in conjunction with Ampel

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Disclaimer: Please be advised that this episode contains discussions about death, which may be triggering or upsetting for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised.

If you are struggling with the loss of a loved one, please know that you are not alone  and there are resources available. For additional support please contact Lifeline on 131 114 or Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636.

TRANSCRIPT:

S06EP04 Going out with style

James: Hi, I'm James Valentine. Welcome to Life's Booming. This season is Dying to Know. We're having the conversations that are often the hardest to have with people who've experienced life's one great certainty, death. 

It touches everyone, but how we honor our loved ones in death is changing, with most of us now preferring to focus on celebrating life rather than mourning at funerals.

So in this episode, we explore some of the new ways people are choosing to commemorate life, as well as hearing first hand experience of what it's like to grieve in the public eye. Generously sharing their professional and personal stories are our guests. Evelyn Calaunan is an experienced celebrant who specialises in living funerals.

And Blanche d’Alpuget is an acclaimed author and widow of former Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke. Evelyn Blanche, welcome to Life's Booming. 

Blanche: Oh, thank you, James. 

James: Evelyn, you describe yourself as an end of life celebrant. What exactly does that mean? What do you mean by end of life celebrant? 

Evelyn: So I've done, I've done ceremonies, as well. I used to be a wedding celebrant and I've married a few couples where one of the partners was diagnosed with a terminal illness, so I would do the ceremony and that turned out to be sort of a life celebration and they just wanted to marry before one of them died. And then I've done a ceremony where the person was actually dying and we did it.

The end of life sort of life celebration for him. And he passed away, I think, 10 days after, after the ceremony. That's why I think it's, it's best just to celebrate life now, like have those milestone birthdays or whatever birthday number you're turning and have a great party now - why wait till you have a diagnosis or a terminal illness that's looming?

So it's important to have those, those celebrations now. However, in saying that, sometimes people are diagnosed and like, ‘Oh God, I didn't have that party. So I want to have something now.’ 

I did do a life celebration for my girlfriend who was diagnosed with cancer. And I did a little bit of a ceremony and a ritual and I shared a poem and I was getting a bit too sad for everybody there - cause we were really… It was like a 70s party, we were all dressed up and enjoying each other's company. And then after a while we could tell people were really getting upset because of her diagnosis. And then she came on the microphone. She said, ‘Okay, okay. That's enough, Evelyn, let's go on to karaoke’, you know, so, yeah, 

It turned out to be a lovely celebration and she wanted to invite people there from all parts of her life and just be able to have a good party with them while she was still feeling well. 

James: Yeah Yeah

Evelyn: And I've done about 600 end of life ceremonies. 

James: It just sounds like 600 sounds like a lot 

Evelyn: Yeah, but in the context of 17 years, that's really not.

James: I think the thing that struck me about that number was, does it get routine?

Evelyn: Not really. I mean a lot of the script is or the script that I have – I mean, there's only so many ways you can say I'd like to welcome everyone here today. So I'll write a ceremony and I might say, ‘Oh, you know, Joe Blow leaves behind his loving sister’, and then the parents will come back and say, ‘Please take loving out, they couldn't stand each other!’ 

So, you know, there's a lot of adjectives that are changed because I kind of make my ceremonies quite flowery and people like to change that and make it more real. So yeah. 

James: Blanche, you had the experience of, in a way, one of the biggest funerals and biggest moments of public grief in Australian life, the death of Bob Hawke and the funeral and memorial service of Bob Hawke.

How much did you and Bob plan those events together? 

Blanche: Not at all. No, no. That was all left up to me. 

James: Right. So you planned those events. So my understanding is Bob knew he was dying, right? You knew it was, say, a year before, that kind of thing, you knew it was, it would, it must have been coming.

Blanche: Well, you don't know exactly when. When he started dying, it just fell like an axe. It was very sudden, out of the blue, we were having dinner. And he was in a bad way. He was in a lot of pain from peripheral neuropathy, so he was on morphine tablets and the fentanyl patches. Obviously it was going to be at some stage, but suddenly we're having dinner and we finished dinner and he got up from dinner and he actually went into the living room and actually threw up and he was in enormous pain, suddenly.

And he got on the floor and said, ‘Oh, it's unbearable. The pain's unbearable’. And I said to him, ‘Yes, Bob, you're dying.’ And that was, so that was the beginning. 

James: How did he take that? Like, how did he take his death? So the, the imminence of his death? 

Blanche: Well, he'd said all along, I have no fear of death. And I used to think all along, wait until you get there.

[laughter]

It's one thing, not fearing death. It's another thing fearing dying, and dying can be difficult. Being born is difficult, life is difficult, and dying can be difficult too. But then I think it's wonderful, when you actually… Because I believe in the spirit and the soul, and I've seen enough of people dying to be convinced of it, there's an absolutely uplifting feeling as, as it goes, as it leaves the body. 

James: What did he believe, particularly at that point? 

Blanche: I sort of badgered him with my ideas for 25 years, so [laughter]. He'd started off an agnostic and he was still probably agnostic, but when he died, he wasn't.

I mean, I could see it on his face. He didn't say, ‘Oh my God, I can, I see heaven’. But there was such a heavenly look on his face. As I saw on my mother's face. 

James: What do you see, Evelyn, the difference between, do you see a difference between those who are dying and have belief and faith and those who don’t. How does that express itself?

How do you see it play out? 

Evelyn: What I've seen or what I've experienced talking to families is that that they could see at the end that they, if they were quite sick, cause I always ask, I always ask my families, how was it the last few days? And they always say to me, that, you know, just about a few days before they died, they had this really lucid moment where they sat up and we had a really good conversation. And, and then a few days later, they passed away. 

And another thing that I actually really would like to share is that most of the families, they get really upset if their person hasn't passed in front of them. They're waiting for that moment.

But I have found in all of the many funerals I've done, I would say about 80%, if not more, the loved one usually passes away when someone will just go out to the toilet or go… I've had to explain that to families because they're, they're so upset. Like, ‘you know, I was sat there, I slept on, by the side, the side of the bed of my mother, and I was holding her hand and I, I just had to go to the toilet. I come back and she died on me’ - you know, but it's so common. 

 James: Why are you nodding Blanche? You heard this a lot too.

Blanche:  Oh yes, it's very well known that because the loved one is hanging on emotionally, psychologically to the one who's dying. And so, the dying one can't leave, and that has to grab the moment. Do you agree with the Evelyn?

Evelyn: Yeah I definitely agree with that, and I've heard the stories too many times to not discount that, and I think at the end of life, I think we just kind of resort to being kind of like cats or dogs – you know how they go to a corner to die. I think we kind of are like that as well.  

James: Yeah. Did you, were you there with when Bob died? 

Blanche: Yep. Holding his hand. I'd done a very foolish thing before. I'd spent all day lying down beside him, and he had pneumonia, he developed pneumonia. And I had an appointment with an acupuncturist and I went to see her.

She took my pulse, which is the first thing you do with acupuncture, and she said, What have you been doing? And I said, I've been lying down with Bob, he's dying. She said, You've got no pulses. You'll die. She said, You've given him all your life energy and you must stop. And you can only hold his hand. You mustn't touch any more of his body than that. 

And indeed, while I was lying down beside him, his breathing improved, his color came back, he started – he was, had morphine, so I was in a morphine sleep – but he just started to look good. And as soon as I just moved away from him, he went back into pneumonia and dying.

James: Yeah. Did you see the moment? 

Blanche: Yeah. Oh yes. 

James: What was that? 

Blanche: It was marvelous. It was… He gave a huge sigh, and then I felt the room was full of angels. It was very, very uplifting. It was very thrilling. And the same thing with my mother actually. I was with her when she died. And it was so exciting, I wanted to ring her up immediately and say, Hey mum, guess what I just saw? 

James: She probably knows. She probably knew. What kind of descriptions do you hear of the moment?  

Evelyn: Yeah, I hear the same as well, that when they finally took their last breath, they just looked so peaceful and they looked without pain.

But in saying that, because I am, I do the funerals like, you know, a few days after they die, a lot of things happen at the funerals too, like, you know, birds brushing up against the window when you mention their name. Or, you know, light fluttering in when you're doing a reflection. I've witnessed a lot of that or even electrics going out during certain motions and then someone will ring out, ‘Oh, that's mum, she always wanted to make a big scene, you know.’

So I've witnessed a lot of that to know that there is something beautiful, you know, beautiful on the other side. And I feel when their body is still here on, on the, on the plane, like that time from when they die to when the funeral, I feel there's, their essence is really all around us. And some of the essence does come out at the funeral and some of the things people say… yeah, it's just beautiful. 

James: It's a fusion, I suppose, like I'm feeling a sense of a fusion of a, of a spirit and whatever that might be, but also our huge consciousness of them. You know, there's so much consciousness all the way, there's suddenly, you know, sometimes hundreds, thousands of people will be thinking about this person and remembering, you know, that, that's also a life force in some ways, isn't it?

Blanche: Yes. I remember at Bob's, at the private funeral, I had no idea what I was going to say. And suddenly I looked in my handbag and there was a piece of paper with a poem on it. And there was exactly the right thing. I hadn't seen the poem before, but it was exactly the right thing to read in the circumstances.

James: Had someone popped it in there, or? 

Blanche: No. 

James: Mmm. 

Blanche: Weird. 

James: Weird. 

Blanche: I'm weird. [laughter]

James: I suppose I wondered about the experience of grief when it's going to be that public. And I do, there's a public funeral, but there was also, there's an immediate, sorry, private funeral, but there's also an immediate public thing you've got to deal with, with media and with the nation learning all that kind of thing.

Blanche: That was a nightmare, a real nightmare. I think I probably had a thousand emails and texts, for starters. And I was really grieving, really, really upset. So I'd go up shopping and burst into tears over the cauliflowers. [laughter] I haven’t got anything against cauliflower. 

And I didn't have a moment, really, to grieve properly. I mean, I had the odd moments, but it was so busy, once he died because of who he was, and everybody wanting a slice of the salami, basically. 

James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How'd you handle it? 

Blanche: You just do James. When stuff gets thrown at you, you just handle it as best you can. Whether I did it well or ill, I don't know. 

James: And so then what, how did you handle your grief? Did you have to do that later? 

Blanche: Unfortunately. And I got… So the next year I got breast cancer. And I do think that was grief. 

James and Evelyn: Mm. Yeah. 

Blanche: He died in May, I moved out of the house in September, and I was diagnosed with breast cancer in February.

James: Yeah. Yeah. That's too much, isn’t it 

Blanche: Well, it's life, you know, you just got to accept it.

James: Because it seems sort of unimaginable, like just having to have so much to process, you've got a whole, there's a whole other complication…

Blanche: …and people still come up to me. Almost six years later. And say, I wish he was still here. Yeah. That's quite common. Especially as we approach an election! [laughter]

James: Well, yes, I could feel that too! And is that, is that a nice thing? Is it nice having, to be remembered like that?

Blanche:  Oh, yes, because it's all, it's always very civil and kind.

Evelyn: And I think people feel like they know him, even though he wasn't, you know, their husband or father, they wanted a piece of him. And I think they wanted to fully grieve and honor his life. And that's why having that public funeral was very, was very necessary.

Because I do think memorials, or anything, is necessary, even if you just for five minutes, it's like, let's just stop and think about whoever's past. We need that. We need that. And I've seen too often, in my… over the years, where a lady's past, was in her 80s, and what was going to be put in the coffin with her were ashes from her stillborn child. So she never did a ceremony for that. And I remember her husband was telling me, You know, she always talked about her stillborn. 

And they never knew what to do with the ashes. And so I think, if they would have had just a little bit of a ceremony honouring that child, or the stillbirth, that would have helped for them to go further. So we just need it, we just need moments to get together…

James: Tell me more about why I think it's necessary. What, what, what is the… Because a lot of people will say this thing, ‘Look, cardboard box, put me out in the, put me out with the rubbish. You know, put me in the top paddock, let the crows have a go’, you know, like you get that sort of expression.

But then you're, you know, what you're saying is it's very important, not even, not just for the person that's died, almost more for everybody else. 

Evelyn: I think funerals, end of life ceremonies, are really important for the people who are left behind. Like just us being together and honoring that person in a space and having this sort of energy directed towards this person that we love. 

But people, they don't want to have these ceremonies. And I don't, I don't know if it's an Australian thing, you know, cause I've heard that a lot, just put me out on the, you know, on the trash and I'll be, I'll be right, mate. But I think honoring that person is really important just for those who are left behind.

James: Think it's Australian, a little bit Australian? 

Blanche: Yes, I do. And it's because we're so secular. 

James: Right. 

Blanche: I think. 

James: Well, I think a lot of the, a lot of the discussions we've been having here, or the point of these discussions in this, in this series has been because we've lost, you know, if half of us were Catholics and the other half were Anglicans and, you know, there were a few other sects alongside, that gave us the structures and gave us the ritual to the funerals.

Whereas these discussions, a lot of it has been about, well, if you're not that, and that is an increasingly larger proportion of the population, well, what is it? What are you marking? Why, what is death? What is the funeral? What is the ceremony for? What, what's the funeral for?  

Blanche: The funeral is to celebrate the life. And I might say that although I want an, an, an inexpensive casket or coffin, I don't want a nothing funeral. I want ‘When the saints go marching in’, played at the end of it!

James: it. Yes. 

Blanche: Fun. 

James: Yeah. Did Bob have much planning in the memorial? Did he think about that?  

Blanche: None. Unlike Gough [Whitlam]. Gough planned his funeral down to the last tea. Bob left it entirely to others. He didn't even think about it. 

James: Right. And what, what hand did you have in that? Was that something where it was hard to express perhaps your love because there's protocol, there's stuff that had to be done?  

Blanche: Oh, well, there were a number of formal speakers who had to be there, and I wasn't one of those.

The one person representing the family was his eldest child, Sue, and then all the rest were pollies. 

James: And did it feel like you, did that feel like a memorial of Bob Hawke or the Bob Hawke you knew, or the Bob Hawke we knew?

Blanche:  It was the Bob Hawke the public knew. But there's also a lot of, as you were saying, a lot of information in that.

Evelyn: Yeah. And, and I'd like to share this that, at a funeral, at least 80% of the guests there will find out something new about their person that they never knew. And we can all relate to that. So it's very common. And even sons and daughters, I've found, they know very little about their parents from before they were born.

So, you know, they don't even know these basic sort of questions when you ask them. They'll know where they were married, but they don't know the basic questions. So I think there is a need to talk about, you know, talk about our lives more, not talk about death, but talk about our lives more so that our children, you know, know about our lives before, you know, death.

James: I think it's one of the nice aspects of funeral is [to] find that relative you don't know very well and have a chat. So much will come out. Great stories will come out. And it will be those things like, What do you mean they did that after the war? What are you talking about? You know, because often they will never say it. How, Blanche, how do you think we should talk about death?

Blanche: Positively. It's inevitable and, and therefore to be, not to be feared and, and shrunken away from, but to anticipate with a certain degree of excitement. Look, I think it's a great adventure, because we don't know what's going to happen afterwards. But if you have a positive attitude, it's really worth looking, looking forward to. 

James: Yeah, if you go in with the positive attitude, I think they'll be pleased to see you. There's that nice Blanche. Come on in, we’ll have you there! 

Where should we, where should we be talking about death? When should we talk about death, Evelyn?

Evelyn:  Well, I'm one of the very low percent percentage of people who actually enjoy talking about death and I've been doing funerals for such a long, long time, and I find something really interesting is that I feel I live my life really quite fully, because you never know what's going to happen around the corner.

And I deal with all ages, you know, from just a baby to someone who's really old. But, you know, deal with suicides and people die in accidents. So I know that life is really quite brief, and is briefer than we even think, you know? And, uh, yeah, so I, uh, I don't know… what was the question? 

James: I mean, I think this picks up a little on what Blanche was saying about, you know, it's a secular society. It's an even more secular society than it ever was. We're even more removed from death than we ever were. Go back a few generations, you know… 

Blanche: And death was at home. 

James: Death was at home. 

Blanche: It's been medicalised. 

James: Exactly. It's been kept at home. You know, the body would be in the home. Children would die. You know, we're around death a lot more.

So now it's separated from us and then we don't even talk about it. So, and I suppose I'm interested in sort of, when, you know, should it be in schools? O should we talk about it more? Do you talk to your parents about their funeral plans? Like, when should we talk about death? 

[00:22:36] Evelyn: I think we should bring it in as soon as possible because we have animals that die. We just need kids to know what it is to die. Grandparents who died and, you know, bring it, bring it in as soon as possible. 

In elementary school, high school or, you know, we just need to get that conversation going. Unfortunately, we only think about it when we're diagnosed with something or if we lose a loved one. We think about it then. We think life, we can live life infinitely, but then something happens. So I know it's probably not the topic that people want to talk about, but there can be something quite beautiful. Like when we start talking about our funeral songs, when we just start talking about our lives. I think it's, I think it's quite exciting. 

Blanche: I think it's exciting, too. But obviously for kids, it's when they're grandparents die - well sometimes they're already adults when their grandparents die - but if they're little kids, start talking then. 

James: Yeah. Well, you increasingly, like when my grand-, when my first grandmother died, I was maybe seven or eight or something like that, it was not done to take the children to the funeral.

Blanche: That's right. 

James: The children were not to be going to the funeral. But now I think we do go, No, bring the children to the funeral. I think that's changed. 

Blanche: Yes. And I think that's positive. And especially if it's an uplifting funeral. 

James: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Or even if it's, even if it's not, I mean, children should experience that too, shouldn't they? They should understand the breadth of that emotion.

Blanche:  But whether it's uplifting or not doesn't depend on the nature of the death. 

James: No. 

Evelyn: I do think that sometimes when a person does die tragically, accident, or suicide or even murdered, there should be this, there should be like an authenticity about saying what happened, but really just the one sentence, because I know that you want to address the elephant in the room because people often say, Oh, God, how's she going to do this?

So I often say, you know, there's no words of comfort, you know, that we can really say that, you know, she's died tragically and you do have to use the word died. She's died tragically, but that's not who she was. This was just an event that was, you know, just took her life. We're not going to focus on that.

We're going to focus on, you know, what she loved to do, the music she loved, the people she loved. But I do think you do need to address that. You can't sugarcoat that. So sometimes celebrants and priests, they do make it all about the death, but I do think it is important to address the death, and be transparent about that.

And then you focus on the celebration. 

James: I use the word died all the time too. Like I'm a daily radio broadcaster, when I’m remarking on people I say they died yesterday. They died. 

Blanche and Evelyn: Yeah. 

James: This person died. He passed, passed away. I don't like it. I didn't…

Blanche: …Neither do I. 

James: They died. Died. Yeah. And it, it, it sort of seems to, I don't know, it makes it…

Blanche: It's a euphemism, 

The euphemism sort of, I don't know, it takes away from the solemnity of the event, almost, and the significance…

Blanche: I agree

James: I think we were talking before about, we don't think people want to talk about death. I think people love talking about it. Like, and again, on the radio show, we do it quite often.

People love it. You know, they write in, they're engaged. They want to talk about it. I did it to… I was with a friend the other night and for some reason it came up and I made the, I started talking about, you know, my beliefs or whatever. And you see the friend just suddenly stopped and went, Well, this is interesting.

You know, like, this is better than just, How was the footy, you know… 

Blanche: I never thought of that!

James: It sort of, the whole conversation, it sparked… we had a whole new level in the relationship… And I think that that's what these conversations are about, is hopefully they encourage, you know, other people listening to have, to talk about death.

Blanche: And a positive attitude. 

James: Yeah. Evelyn, how have funerals changed? Yeah, perhaps even in the course of your 17 years, over the 600, but also, yeah, maybe getting to remember your grandmothers or something like that. How do you think funerals have changed? 

Evelyn: Well, funerals have definitely changed in the last few years, mainly because of COVID, and we're using technology more.

And also what I've noticed as well is that there are people who will have a private cremation and then have a huge memorial, maybe not a week or two after, but maybe in a month or two after. So they're giving it a longer time to have, like, more of a bigger celebration of life. And, so my father died suddenly in 1997, and my mum was taking photos, and this was the camera, and I thought that was, I was so angry with her.

James: Taking photos during the funeral? 

Evelyn: She was, taking the funeral, yeah. It was, she was really upsetting me. But I'm so glad she did because I cherish those photos. So I think it's become more mainstream for people to take photos of the coffins, even, you know, film, film the ceremony. It might not be livestream, but they'll film the ceremony.

So that's actually been more, something that's been more in common. 

James: The video tribute is a, is often a big part. Now there'll be three or four minutes of photos and video.

Blanche: Yeah, that's normal, isn't it? 

Evelyn: Yeah, that's normal. And I try not to have too many tributes because,, you know, after five to six minutes, the audience tends to tune out and I've seen too many funerals… even if a person's a really good speaker, it's really got to be sort of short and sharp.

And I know that sounds horrible, if someone’s lived 90 years, but you can do it in three to four minutes or even to five minutes. 

James: Yeah. Wow. Well, a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much. Blanche, you are, you know, remarkably still full of life. Books are pouring out of you. The Bunny Club, available now, wherever books and libraries exist.

What's The Bunny Club about?

[laughter]

Evelyn: It sounds naughty actually.

James: It's sex and murder. I'll say it. It's murder and sex, right? 

Blanche: Right. 

[laughter]

James: Well, it's a very engaging read, and it's been a very engaging conversation with you as well. Thank you so much for coming. 

Blanche: Thank you, James. 

Evelyn: Thank you so much. 

James: Thank you to Blanche d’Alpuget and Evelyn Calaunan. You've been listening to season six of Life's Booming, Dying to Know, brought to you by Australian seniors.

Please leave a review and share this show with someone you know. Visit seniors. com. au slash podcast for more episodes. May your life be booming. I'm James Valentine.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.