In this episode, we tackle the years 415 and 414 BCE and the downfall of Postumius, a very wronghead man.  

Episode 142 – A Wrongheaded Man

In 415 BCE, the Romans were gearing up for war with Veii and the Aequians… but neither of their dance partners turned up! It takes two to tango and in this case, neither the people of Veii or the Aequians felt ready to get down and boogie.

War against the city of Bolae kicked off in 414 BCE. One of the military tribunes with consular power, Postumius, was placed in command against this Aequian tribe. Whilst the Romans enjoyed success in battle, their internal problems overshadowed the victory.

How do you create chaos in Rome? Simply take a tribune of the plebs, add a dash of agrarian reform, then stir in an arrogant patrician.  Livy described Postumius as a wrongheaded man, and a questionable comment certainly had serious repercussions. Will sticks and stones, or words, do the most damage?

Quote courtesy of Teacher’s Corner.

Join us for another tale of disaster with one of the Postumii at the centre.

Need to catch up on the previous conflict with the Labici? You can find our previous episode here.

Dr G reads Virgil, Aeneid, 6.771-776; Diodorus Siculus 13.34.1, 13.381, 13.42.6; Dio Cassius, Roman History, 6.23; and the Fasti Capitolini.

Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.49-50.

Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)

Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)

Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 

Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN 978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID 239349186.

Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC and Orange Free Sounds.

Courtesy of Otter AI.

Dr G  00:12

Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr Rad  00:15

We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G  00:30

And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad  00:41

Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G  01:00

Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad  01:10

And I am your other hosts, Dr. Rad.

Dr G  01:13

Hello, Dr. Rad.

Dr Rad  01:16

It’s so nice to have you back from Italy. Well, for me,

Dr G  01:20

it is a pleasure to be back. I’ll admit I regretted it for a little while. But today is very sunny and warm and feels kind of Romanesque. So I’m back on board with being in Australia.

Dr Rad  01:33

It is getting very hot in here.

Dr G  01:36

Maybe too hot too soon.  Yeah, it’s a worrying sign. But nonetheless, this is going to cool down a bit later this week. So I can return to my wintry state. Your natural habitat as it were.

Dr Rad  01:49

Exactly, yes.

Dr G  01:51

So we are tracing the history of Rome from the founding of the city. And if you are interested in supporting our work, we have a Patreon. We also do some merch. And we’ve also just released our book on The Roman kings. So there’s plenty of ways when you miss us between episodes, to feel like you have us close at heart,

Dr Rad  02:14

and D and you can pick up our book online in a digital version from Gumroad or from Amazon. Or you can pick it up in a physical form from Abbey’s bookstore in Sydney.

Dr G  02:29

Yeah, we are very lucky to have it stocked in our hometown. So we’re thrilled about that. And so in the grand tradition of where we’re up to in this narrative history, I think we should start with a bit of a recap of what might have been happening up till now.

Dr Rad  02:48

Yes, well, last episode, we were talking about the years 417 and 416. And they were a bit blurred together, as far as I could see. Couldn’t really separate them out. But what I could tell was that there was some classic conflict of the orders happening. Oh, boy,

Dr G  03:06

it’s the subject that just keeps on giving.

Dr Rad  03:08

It certainly does. And so last episode, we were dealing with the fact that some of the tribune of the plebs were trying to pass a law about land, which is an ongoing concern, obviously, for the plebeian class. And in order to foil them, the patricians came up with an evil plan.

Dr G  03:32

Classic times, I mean, the minute you ask for agrarian reform, I think you’re also at the same time asking for patrician evil plans. That’s kind of these two things go naturally together for the elite in Rome.

Dr Rad  03:44

They certainly do. And so we had one of the Appii Claudii people, the Appius Claudius’ is of the world coming along with a douchebag plan of turning Tribunes against each other, which of course, worked,

Dr G  04:00

Dammit.

Dr Rad  04:02

So that’s kind of what we were dealing with last episode Dr G.

Dr G  04:06

All right. Now, I suspect that you will have lots of things to tell me about the things that are coming up.

Dr Rad  04:14

That’s a relative term.

Dr G  04:16

All right. Okay. Well, that’s good to know, because I am still sort of swimming about sort of, without a real proper narrative source to hold on to so always cobbling together little bits and pieces from all sorts of source material and hoping that I have a hint of something that might have happened.

Dr Rad  04:35

I know I’m picturing you very much as being like, adrift in an ocean just like paddling about like doggy paddle style, grabbing at pieces of woods that are just like floating there, just like at the end of Titanic.

Dr G  04:48

I always hoped as a as a dog in the ocean that I’ll find a big stick. But no, sometimes I have more. Sometimes I have less.

Dr Rad  04:58

I’ll take you any which way, Dr G.

Dr G  05:02

Excellent. All right. Well, let’s jump in

Dr Rad  05:05

Let’s do it 415 BCE

Dr G  05:25

Don’t you mean 414 BCE?

Dr Rad  05:29

No I mean 415

Dr G  05:33

Let me scroll up. No wonder I don’t know what’s going on.

Dr Rad  05:38

I’m quite definite on that.

Dr G  05:41

Fair enough. It’s 415 BCE certainly

Dr Rad  05:47

It is Dr. G. And I’m gallantly allowing you to once again tell me about the magistrates.

Dr G  05:53

Thank you. I have so little to say otherwise. So I really appreciate this generosity. Absolutely. This is a year where we have military tribunes with consular power. And there’s a whole bunch of them.

Dr Rad  06:07

Yeah, there are, no there is, I mean, there was.

Dr G  06:09

They’re all patricians. So let’s get the big stuff out of the way. First. We have Publius Cornelius Cossus. We have one Gaius Valerius Volusi Potitus Volusus. I feel like that’s a bit repetitive, but sure. He’s got a lot of names. This will be the start of an illustrious career. So keep your eye on this guy. We have somebody who we’re not really sure about the praenomen. It’s either Numerius or Marcus as the praenomen Fabius Vibulanus, okay. And just to sort of cement the confusion around this guy, Broughton thinks that this might have also been the guy that was consul in 421. Now that guy had a praenomen, possibly of Gnaeus. So that leaves us with like three possible praenomens and so we really have no idea which dude this is. It’s one of the Fabii Vibulani.

Dr Rad  07:13

He’s a fabulous Fabian and that’s all we need to know

Dr G  07:15

he’s fabulous. And we continue onwards and hope for the best. Exactly. And we also have Quintus Quinctius Cincinnatus. Now this sounds like a very familiar dude. But actually, we haven’t seen this guy before.

Dr Rad  07:29

No, but he must be from that family.

Dr G  07:32

Ooh, very illustrious, very esteemed. Well, all

Dr Rad  07:35

of these names are actually pretty illustrious, aren’t they? We’ve got the Cornelii, the Valerii the Fabii…

Dr G  07:42

Yeah, these are all families or patrician families that have been swimming around in positions of power before. So we we’ve definitely seen all of these families. Nobody here is like a fresh novus homo as it were into power.

Dr Rad  07:56

What did you call me???!

Dr G  08:00

Nothing, nothing. You’ve been here the whole time. I also have the name of a tribune of the plebs. Oh, yes. One Lucius Decius. Is he a 10 out of 10? You and I are making the same jokes now.

Dr Rad  08:18

Too in sync, Too in sync.

Dr G  08:21

That’s it. This podcast is over. Right?

Dr Rad  08:24

Is that making the same jokes, it’s time to move on.

Dr G  08:27

So I’ll have some things to say about Lucia gaseous. I think at some point, maybe the narrative should unfold a little bit before I go into that kind of bit of detail.

Dr Rad  08:38

Okay, fair enough.

Dr G  08:39

I handed over duly to you

Dr Rad  08:41

Why thank you. Let me tell you what Livy’s says about this year, I mean, this is going to excite you so be prepared. Rome would have been facing two wars in this year. Now you notice I said would have been

Dr G  08:57

Livy, What are you doing?

Dr Rad  09:00

and that’s because they both postponed Oh, I knew

Dr G  09:06

I couldn’t possibly make that time somebody somebody send for the army in three months. That’s when I’ll be next available.

Dr Rad  09:13

Exactly. I’ve made I’ve accidentally double booked myself. I can’t possibly go to war with Rome right now.

Dr G  09:18

I have a tea party. Don’t you understand?

Dr Rad  09:20

I’ve got to have my hair done. Takes a while.

Dr G  09:23

What do you mean they’ve been postponed Livy?

Dr Rad  09:26

Well get ready for the enthralling account of how these wars were postponed. I late I’m late for a very important date.

Dr G  09:34

I’m on the edge of my seat. Yes. Okay.

Dr Rad  09:37

So what are the first conflicts was with Veii. Who I actually feel like we haven’t mentioned they in a little while. They’ve been a bit quiet, haven’t they? Yeah, I mean, there was a bit of conflict going on there for a while, but here they are back back back again. Anyway, so the first conflict was meant to be with today. Now, allegedly, the leaders of Veii got spooked about going to war, because the Tiber had flooded, ruining some of their farms and farmhouses. And if you’re about to get out geographical on me, just wait, because I will come back to that. Wait a minute. All right, if you’re thinking that there is a problem now, I’m not geographically minded, so I probably would not have noticed this, but this is where geographers come in and save the day. But I’ll come back to that in a second. The other one was with the Aequians. Now, yeah, okay. They were put off after having been defeated when they had allied with a group called the Bolani. Now, the Bolani sound like a delicious sandwich meat.

Dr G  10:52

What are you having? I’m having the Bolani, what about you? Exactly,

Dr Rad  10:56

exactly. Yeah. Now, it seems that the Bolani were a tribe that lived within this wider Aequians group. So that’s why the other Aequians were helping them out. And Bolani had been one of the groups that had been attacking the territory of the Labici. And the new settlers at Labici. Hmm,

Dr G  11:20

yeah, I might have something to add to that. Okay. Well,

Dr Rad  11:23

I’ll finish my little story about them, and then you can add your thing. Bolani had been hoping that they were able to get away with attacking Labici By getting all the Aequians together to support them in this quest. But they didn’t get the backup that they were hoping for ended up losing their town and all their lands after a siege and a battle. And I quote my translator of Livy in a war, which does not even merit description. Wow. Okay. So I’m presuming that this means that this is a war that we haven’t heard about, but

Dr G  11:59

I’m willing to talk about this war, but I’m not willing to describe it. It happened. We’re moving on.

Dr Rad  12:04

Exactly. Put it behind us. All right.

Dr G  12:06

Look, I appreciate that. And I wish that happened more with military history. I mean, the details are always baffling. Somebody ran down a hill. Somebody else was hiding behind a tree. Yes. Outrageous.

Dr Rad  12:17

The cavalry was you know, secreted behind some bushes.

Dr G  12:21

That’s right. No, no, somebody jumped out of a cave, haha!

Dr Rad  12:25

took me by surprise.

Dr G  12:27

Goodness me. All right. So I think Bolani, the the Bolani people that you’re talking about are probably the inhabitants of Bola or Bolae.

Dr Rad  12:37

Yes, yes they are. Yeah. Yes, I can confirm that.

Dr G  12:40

Okay, so this is the ancient city in Latium. That is, we think we know the position of it. So I’m getting sort of geographical again southeast of Rome, right. But even further east than the Castelli Romani region, so those mountains, there’s not that many of them, they kind of stick out of the ground in an odd spot because they’re volcanic in nature. Okay. But once you get around those, and like, you know, the magma stops spinning out and stuff, then you go back into like, you know, plains and valleys, and boiler is supposed to be over in that direction. So it’s near the ancient city of Labicum. Okay, so the Labici and the Bolani would know each other probably quite well their neighbours,

Dr Rad  13:26

it makes sense why the people from Bolani you are trying to steal from the Labici then either way, I’m just gonna say for any other people who are watching drag race out there. I can’t say this now without thinking of the Australian drag queen, Gabriella Labucci. This must be where she’s from.

Dr G  13:44

There’s a nice synergy there. And the other little tidbit of detail that I have about Bolae as a place is that it is thought to have been founded by the king of Alba longa. This is a little detail that comes through in Virgil’s Aeneid.

Dr Rad  14:00

Nice. Okay. Yeah, this is I think another reason why it comes up. So not only does this situation with the Aequians mean that there is no war with the Aequians in this year. This is where our attribute of the plebs comes in. When Lucius Decius, as you said, he is trying to pass a law in which colonists would be sent to Bolae as well as Labici. But his fellow Tribune stop him from doing this and would not allow a plebiscite without the Senate saying it was okay with this idea. Insert sound effect

Dr G  14:41

Yeah, I mean, you’ve caught me speechless. So they want agrarian reform in the form of colonisation. So putting people out there giving them some land so they can do their stuff, giving them a new life offworld opportunities and all that kind of thing, but the Senate needs to approve it somehow.

Dr Rad  15:00

I know well, this is where we once again come back to the confusion of the early republic. A plebiscite is a measure that’s passed in the plebeian assembly. And it’s meant to be binding for all plebeians and eventually also, all Roman citizens. However, this is something we know comes about much later. We don’t really know if there was exactly such a thing at this moment. And certainly, we can’t be certain obviously, who would be applicable for, you know, would it have been the plebeians? Do the plebeians even exist? I mean, we come back to that question.

Dr G  15:38

Yes, and this is where we have that sort of the issues with our source material, as always, where we have a position known as the tribune of the plebs, but it’s not yet well established, what distinguishes them out necessarily, besides being not the elite? And to what extent are there formal processes in place for the tribune of the plebs to sort of bring this group of people together, or representatives thereof to make any kind of decision? We don’t know if the tribune of the plebs has that kind of power at this time?

Dr Rad  16:10

Yeah, exactly. So as it turns out, it’s a bit of a moot point because Bolae ends up being recaptured the following year, the Aequians set up a colony there to make it stronger, and obviously more resistant to the Romans, I suppose coming along and taking it back. Yay. And so that’s pretty much all I have officially for that year.

Dr G  16:33

Okay. May I jump in with some details about Lucius Decius, our tribune of the plebs. You know

Dr Rad  16:39

what? You may, but only after my geographical detail.

Dr G  16:44

Are we going back to Veii. For a quick minute,

Dr Rad  16:46

we’re going back to that question about the geography of this whole story. So that’s the official account that comes from Livy. Subsequent scholars have pointed out that it seems unlikely that the Tiber would have flooded in the area of they, the flooding usually happens closer to Rome. So if there was flooding, presumably, would have been Roman farms that were being flooded, which makes this story of not wanting to go to war because of a flood. A little confusing,

Dr G  17:23

huh, it’s not that it would be impossible, I’m sure. It would have to be quite a significant flood. I guess it just depends. I’m not good enough with water and my knowledge of flooding to be able to speculate further on that one.

Dr Rad  17:37

Well, this is where you might be able to help me out. Because apparently, whilst the geography doesn’t entirely make sense, at the same time, if we’re just talking about flooding in general, rivers are obviously very important to communities. I mean, to be honest, they’re still very important to this day, but we just for a lot of people, because we live more urban lives, we perhaps are less aware of our dependence on water, because it seems to just come effortlessly out of taps. And that’s obviously not really the reality of the world that we live in. But nonetheless, I’m not going to get distracted by it, environmentalism tangent. So rivers, obviously very important. People depend on them, obviously, as like a life giving source. And floods are definitely often seen as prodigies. So they have this added religious element. And therefore this might be the kind of thing that might have been recorded in the annals of that year, because it would have been something obviously, that people would have been observing and considered important. And so what Ogilvie who’s the commentary that I’m looking at for this has suggested is that maybe this there was a record of a flood in this time, and later historians have come along and somehow twisted it into a motive as to why there wasn’t a war in this year.

Dr G  18:58

I mean, that sort of presupposes that they had a narrative about there being a war before they knew about flood, which seems a bit odd as well. I’m like, Guys, I mean, you don’t have to have a war every year. It’s excellent of having domestic issues. But realistically, if we’re thinking geographically as well, ancient vai is now it’s, it was about eight kilometres from Rome, right? Shouldn’t Rome. Yeah. In modern terms, Veii is part of Rome. Yeah, that is passed on, you’re still you’re still very close to the city at that point. In terms of the river itself, these things would be very hard to judge now as well, because there’s been a lot of work done on the Tiber to prevent it from flooding. Yeah, because it is a river that goes through a city and it constantly flooding is an issue for people. So the Tiber is very much built up on all of its banks in order to prevent that from happening. Yeah, it would be, this is one of those moments where you want to go back in time, like, what did it Look like? topographically? Yeah, these are the things that that you want to be able to sort of come to grips with because it will give you a sense of the nature of the landscape and how it might have people interacted with it, and how nature might have taken its toll on the people around it with things like flooding for Yes,

Dr Rad  20:21

yes, I agree with what you said, because I felt the same thing. I’m like, Well, sure, they could twist it into a motive. But they’d have to have known that there was a possibility of a war because there is no war. So why would they even say that? Why would they just say,

Dr G  20:34

wouldn’t it just be easy to talk about a flood instead mean, like there was a terrible flood guys.

Dr Rad  20:39

We all love hearing stories about so floods, just ask the Christians,

Dr G  20:43

it might come from a desire to continue to bolster this idea of Rome being in a constant state of like military alertness and activity, which is all about them gaining the skill set that will enable them to eventually dominate the entire Italian Peninsula,

Dr Rad  20:59

I can’t get on board with the idea that there would have been a record of a significant flood because it would have been something in the natural world that might have been seen as some sort of, you know, some sort of sign. Oh, it’s just me can be a sign I saw the sign. And that I that’s all I have on that I do have a little bit of detail about Decius as well, but I’m gonna let you run with what you’ve got and see if mine is different.

Dr G  21:29

All right, so Lucius Decius, what a man. But more importantly, what a name. Am I right,

Dr Rad  21:37

that’s where I was going. Take it away, Dr G.

Dr G  21:41

So things get tricky with this guy. Because he’s involved in this idea of agrarian reform and trying to get things done and it not really working out, which for the reader of sources, like Livi is immediately I think, going to put them in mind of a much later Decius, who was also attribute of the plebs. And this is probably as Decius Subolo, who was doing his business in a roundabout 120 BCE, tribune of the plebs and a huge supporter of the Gracchi who are infamous for their interest in agrarian

Dr Rad  22:23

the people that love land the most, or land reform the most.

Dr G  22:29

Yeah, you say agrarian, I say Gracchi. But there are some other Decius characters that sort of crop up in the Republic of Rome’s history. I’m not sure that these are necessarily a launch point for anything to do with our particular Decius. But I’m just going to do a little bit of foreshadowing, because I think it will be fun. So we have a few Decius is coming up. And one of them is Publius Decius Mus from around about 325 BCE. Yeah, so give us another century of the podcast and we will get there. But he is most well known for sacrificing himself in battle. His son, Publius, Decius Mus. So the first son is also infamous, for winning a battle for Rome through self sacrifice,

Dr Rad  23:31

are noticing a trend. And then we also have

Dr G  23:34

the grandchild, Publius Decius Mus, who is also attributed to having won a battle through sacrificing himself.

Dr Rad  23:46

How on earth did this family survive?

Dr G  23:49

I don’t think that line did, at least not very well. But these DSCI seem to be outside of sort of like the there doesn’t seem to me to be a substantial connection between these guys and why you might mention a name like Decius for the tribune of the plebs. But we’ve got some interesting figures coming up in our history, but there does seem to be this weird sort of parallel with this Kraken Decius which I think is probably worth keeping in mind.

Dr Rad  24:17

Yeah, Look, I think you’re right about that. Because from my research, definitely there is suspicion about someone of this name popping up so early in Rome’s history. We have had a few mentions of this name before in Dionysius. But it seems like as you say, this is a name that becomes famous and important later on. And so in typical Roman historical tradition, they have rejected them back into early rooms pass because they want to, you know, play out their their significance and the continuity that’s there and all of that kind of stuff, but certainly It seems dubious that there would have been anyone from his family in Rome earlier than the full century BCE. So yeah, it just it just doesn’t seem to quite tally up. And apparently this is a family that hail from Southern Italy

Dr G  25:15

ah yes the Decii Mures, possibly thought to be from Campania originally so moving up for Rome for a brand new life and then maybe just sacrificing themselves all the time

Dr Rad  25:28

they just love it so much they love it so much.

Dr G  25:31

Let me fight for you room let me die for you indeed.

Dr Rad  25:35

And that’s all I’ve got for 415 BC Dr. G. So are you ready to tackle 414?

Dr G  25:40

Oh, so ready all right, let’s do it

Dr Rad  25:58

so once again 414  BCE, Dr G, who were the magistrates? there are a lot of them.

Dr G  26:05

Finally, I feel like I’m on firmer territory now – 414 was where I wanted to start. We have four military Tribunes with consular power. Big surprise there. All Patrician.

Dr Rad  26:21

Oh yeah.

Dr G  26:22

We have Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus

Dr Rad  26:27

Seeing something here.

Dr G  26:30

Lucius Valerius Potitus, Quintus Fabius Vibulanus.

Dr Rad  26:36

Oh, there’s a trend.

Dr G  26:38

There’s a trend. Publius Postumius Albinus Regillensis.

Dr Rad  26:43

Does that mean he was as pale as me? 

Dr G  26:46

As white as snow. We have those four guys. Yeah. Now, reputedly. Postumius has some business with Bolae that might be coming up. That I suspect you will have the details.

Dr Rad  27:00

Oh, I have all the details.

Dr G  27:02

I’m looking forward to those details. Because all I have is the barest sketch of what might have happened.

Dr Rad  27:07

Yeah. You know, when I Look at these names, once again, we’ve got some families that are really clinging with their fingernails to power.

Dr G  27:17

Yeah, and actually, this was something that in the lieu of having like a strong narrative source, I do have some things to say about families and power, okay, in this period, so when we come to the end of the narrative aspect, let me know and I will give you some more details on that. Y’all know. We also have a tribune of the plebs. Marcus Sextius.

Dr Rad  27:38

Oh, yeah. Bring it on.

Dr G  27:41

was time for a sixth.

Dr Rad  27:42

Whatta man, whatta man, whatta man, whatta mighty Good man. He’s a migthy mighty good man.

Dr G  27:49

Sexy Sextius, he is here. And apparently, we also have a quaestor, Publius Sextius.

Dr Rad  27:56

Yeah, I’m not gonna give him the song.

Dr G  27:58

maybe maybe less sexy.

Dr Rad  28:01

It’s just you know, it sounds a lot like pubic, which I suppose should make it more sexy, but…

Dr G  28:05

Ouch. So the thing I think to mention here is that how do names work? And actually what we will be having an episode coming on names soon. So watch that space. But we do have both a tribune of the plebs coming from the gens Sextius. And we also have a quaestor coming from the gens Sextius. And yet, it would be more likely than not that the quaestor is a patrician from the patrician gens Sextius, and Marcus would be a plebeian. Sure. Yeah. So I don’t really have a resolution for that. I haven’t I haven’t solved that at all. I’m just mentioning it in passing?

Dr Rad  28:46

Well, again, it sort of highlights what we’ve been talking about there about this patrician-plebeian divide, how much does it really exist? How much and as you know, imagining that it was so strong as it was. And obviously, it’s possible to have branches of the family,  where one line is patrician and one line isn’t. So

Dr G  29:06

definitely, definitely. And I think this is a moment where having a quest or means it’s probably worth touching on what’s acquire store at this point in time. So there are two versions of quiet stores to consider. There’s the very ancient quaestore parracidii. They are brought together only for special occasions.

Dr Rad  29:27

They the Ms Marples of the ancient Roman world.

Dr G  29:30

Ah, very cute little detectives. They get their magnifying glass out there like Pikachu, Detective Pikachu. They investigate capital offences. And these guys go back at least as far as the 12 tables, so, but they’re sort of CO opted when needed. They might lead juries they might be the head of a jury, and it largely seems to be unconnected to what is later famously the quaestor role which is considered the first rung on the cursus honorum.

Dr Rad  30:00

Yes. And they deal with financial matters a lot of the time today.

Dr G  30:05

Well, this is where the other part of the quaestorship comes into it. So essentially the parracidii could do some of that sort of stuff. But it seems like these sorts of roles do get split, right? So the magisterial quaestors the one that we become famously associated with the cursus honorum are sort of suggested in later sources. And this is where Tacitus comes back into play. Yeah, so this is Annals, our only mention of this. So goodness knows where he turned up this piece of information and whether we can believe it is just bonkers. But he suggests that quaestors existed in there sort of like the monetary sense, looking after finances and things like that, as far back as the kings. I’m not sure that any of us believe that necessarily, though, somebody must have been in charge of the cash.

Dr Rad  30:54

Well, yeah, I mean, God knows, I don’t think the kings are doing it.

Dr G  30:58

I mean, it would be weird if they were just bathing in their own money

Dr Rad  31:01

like Scrooge McDuck.

Dr G  31:04

I mean, conspicuous consumption is pretty important for elites in the ancient world. So maybe, but you might have wanted somebody for the mundane business of your day to day, and maybe you had a person for that. But we do have this idea, again, from Tacitus, that we have two quaestors elected each year from 447 BC onwards. So that would suggest, even though we don’t have any sort of record of them, that this magistracy has been in place for a good sort of 20-30 years already.

Dr Rad  31:34

Well, that’s obviously the time period that we talked about with this sort of refounding of the Roman state. After the second decemvirate has its downfall.

Dr G  31:43

They decided they needed somebody in charge of the Treasury that was separate from the people holding power.

Dr Rad  31:48

That’s not new. And then of course, we had we had some issues where it was like, Can patricians only hold it? Can plebeians hold that we’ve had some back and forth about that in our sources? Definitely. So yeah, is some stuff that’s coming through about them existing. But if we’re looking at when they originally, of course, Levy, Dionysius Tacitus. They’re all from that late Republic, early Empire time period.

Dr G  32:14

Yeah, so we’ve got to be a little bit suspicious of what they might be telling us. So Tasos has this idea of there being two coin stores from 447. And then Livy’s, suggests that this was increased to four qui stores in 421. So very recently, and as far as we’re at our narrative in 414, because of all the paperwork, there’s just so much well, you’ve got wars on multiple fronts, and part of the role of the quiet store is administering the state treasury. So doing the doing the things in the city, looking after the cash, maybe bathing in the money when nobody’s looking. But also importantly, two things connected with the military. And that is looking after the war chest itself. So whatever excellent booty has been taken that might be in coin or valuable, precious materials that is highly karibal. That will be something that quest or looks after. And this might be why you have to have more than one quest, or because if you’ve got more than one war going on, you’ve got more than one war chest.

Dr Rad  33:15

And you also want someone watching the people with the money, you can’t just have one guy looking after the money,

Dr G  33:21

you telling me they have to come in pairs, like the guys with the armoured trucks, and the vans and stuff coming to get the money out of the

Dr Rad  33:27

ATM machine. 110%.

Dr G  33:31

They both have guns so they can shoot each other if necessary.

Dr Rad  33:35

It’s just a recipe for corruption. If you’ve only got one guy, the Romans knew that. I know that.

Dr G  33:42

The other key thing that they seem to be involved with besides sitting on the war chest and having a good time there is the actual logistics supplies more for itself. Less obviously sitting on the money is one thing, but being able to spend it to get the supply lines happening is also very, very important. So the choir still would have to be working very closely with the military commander on the in the field, to make sure that things were going smoothly on the supply line front. So if what was needed, so it was actually a really important role. And these are the sorts of things that we think why stores might be doing around about this period in time

Dr Rad  34:22

indeed. But who knows, as we’ve already

Dr G  34:27

I offered plenty of doubt in that explanation field.

Dr Rad  34:31

Always have to always have that caveat. All right. Well, Dr. J. Strap yourself in for a rollicking good time, because I have got some gusts for you about this year. As you highlighted one of our military Tribune’s with concealer power for this year is one Postumius. Now this is a name that we have heard many a time before and unfortunately it’s rarely in a great light like They’re not always like terrible people, particularly by Roman standards, but they’re not, you know, soft and cuddly. They’re not going to be the spokespersons for fabrics off now, if you know.

Dr G  35:10

I hear

Dr Rad  35:13

so Postumius of this year is put in charge of the delayed campaign against the Aequians. Hmm. According to Livy, Postumius was and I quit my translator, a wrongheaded, man.

Dr G  35:30

That is unfortunate. Yeah.

Dr Rad  35:32

So starts off, okay. He manages to gather an army, you know, get his forces together, go to Bolae, manages to defeat the Aequians. In some trifling engagements. I don’t know whether this is the conflict where Livy’s Like, it’s not where the your description, very confusing.

Dr G  35:51

It’s now being described, though. So surely this is different. I

Dr Rad  35:55

feel like Livy’s way of describing things just leave me with more questions. And I probably need to I need to probably actually, like sit down and like storyboard this conflict. But whenever Livy does mention it, he makes it sound so unimportant that I don’t know why I’d be bothered. But anyway, he does manage because he is successful, in admittedly fairly conflict to get inside the city of Bolae. Now Postumius had initially said that the booty gained from this engagement would go to his soldier.

Dr G  36:29

Okay, I mean, that sounds reasonable. I mean, that’s why, but

Dr Rad  36:33

yeah, very nice. Very nice. It is very nice. However, he does that classic thing that to be honest, parents and teachers should never do. And that is he’s made this promise. And then once they’re inside the city, he changes his mind to follow through Dr. G. Oh, no, You never say something that you’re not prepared to follow through it. That is my number one rule for both parenting and teaching.

Dr G  36:58

Yeah, it’s got to be realistic. That’s got to be the consequence has to be real. Yeah. Regardless of whether it’s positive or negative.

Dr Rad  37:05

Clearly, we have to be given this detail, because it would seem that it’s fairly definite in the source material that the army became very upset with Postumius. And they need to find a reason as to why

Dr G  37:18

was he revolting?

Dr Rad  37:19

Let me record a couple of versions. So obviously, the reason for them being upset is not set in stone, the fact that they were upset seems failing. Yeah, so Livy’s thinks that this is why the army is upset, because Postumius obviously made them a promise. It’s obviously a pretty important one, because it’s about getting that sweet, sweet cash. But there is another version, where the army became upset with him because when they entered the city, and started obviously like ravaging it, they didn’t find that it was as as wealthy as they had imagined. So they feel is a disappointment. Quite frankly, there’s there those are two very different stories. One of them I feel soldiers rightly upset. Other version, entitled much.

Dr G  38:08

I mean, what do you expect? I mean, we all know the booty has been shifting around in the region for for decades at this point.

Dr Rad  38:14

Yeah. Anyway, the situation rapidly starts to deteriorate. Either way. It’s not looking good. And then the other military tributing send for Postumius because there are some problems back in room. So let’s segue now to back in room. This is where our tribute and if the plants comes in. One Marcus Sextius Oh, yeah.

Dr G  38:39

What I’m looking forward to hearing what he’s done to receive this sexy epithet.

Dr Rad  38:45

He has deserved absolutely nothing other than having something to do with the number six, I would imagine. I don’t know. I don’t know. But either way, he’s obviously a classic tribune of the plebs, because he’s trying to once again pass and agrarian law.

Dr G  39:01

Well, good for him. I mean, that is the job of the tribune of the plebs, at this point that people need land, they need to be able to live their lives.

Dr Rad  39:10

They do they do. So he is once again pushing for this idea that there should be colonists from Rome sent out to the city of Bolae, specifically because he thinks it should be given to the people who actually captured it as and I don’t mean literally the soldiers but obviously that group that they supposedly belong to, yeah, seems reasonable. Unfortunately, when Postumius hears about what’s going on back in Rome, he made some snide comment, basically, very aggressive and threatening to those who fought under him, which was something along the lines of you’ll fight for me and you’ll like it and you’ll shut the hell up.

Dr G  39:54

Wow, okay. Postumius I think this is the wrong headedness coming through.

Dr Rad  39:58

Exactly. Now. This comment that will be in assembly hear about it and they are very upset. And to make matters worse, the comment is also reported back in the Senate, and they’re also angry at him because they’re like, Oh, my God, we’re already dealing with a troublesome tribute. We really didn’t need to add fuel to the fire. Hey, guys, stop it. Now the tribune of the plebs, however, sees this as a chink in the patrician armour because he understands that clearly, Postumius is very easy to bait. He’s someone who’s got that patrician arrogance, and could easily be trapped into falling into an argument. And not only would he therefore, probably damage his own rep, but probably the people that he represents. So I presume they may in the Senate and the patricians at large he Marcus Sextius made sure to draw Postumius into this debate about the agrarian law, more than any of the other military tributes with consular power for this year. He’s the one that he’s like laser focused on.

Dr G  41:10

Let’s make him break.

Dr Rad  41:12

I mean, he’s described as wrongheaded. So maybe he’s also really easy to spot. Marcus Sextius really seizes upon the comment. He’s like Postumius, How dare you threatening your own soldiers threatening to punish them like they are mere slaves. And he you are holding such a high office, you know, you’re entrusted with this amazing position. And yet, you so looked down upon the men that have actually thought and given their lives, given their blood to capture this territory, and yet you don’t even see them as worthy. And of course, and this is a great news rhetorically, he’s like, why do people like this keep getting elected as military? Why, why are we electing patricians instead of plebeians when they are clearly gigantic douchebags?

Dr G  42:05

Just keep putting them into power. You know, we got to eat the rich.

Dr Rad  42:12

I know. Now, of course, this comment has also got back to the army who I mean, they were angry before for some reason. Now. They’re really, really angry. Like,

Dr G  42:23

wait a minute, this guy.

Dr Rad  42:26

Exactly, exactly. This is where our quaestor comes into this situation.  Our man on the ground, Publius Sextius.  Well, this is the thing. There’s a bit of confusion about whether it’s Sextius or Sestius. Oh, I know. I know. I know. Just to really throw a spanner into the works.

Dr G  42:45

Let me update my notes.

Dr Rad  42:48

No, I mean, there is genuine confusion. Like we don’t really know. I’m gonna say Sestius just to keep him distinct. Yeah. Good plan. Exactly. Yeah. All right. Oh, maybe I’ll just call him Publius. I’ll call him Publius. So he probably is caught wind of the fact that there’s clearly some mutinous feeling happening for the soldiers who were technically under the command of Postumius. And he decides, I know what the answer to this is violence. And that threat of violence has got them really riled up. So I’m going to use actual violence to deal with this situation

Dr G  43:24

Oh dear. Yeah. Oh, poor summer quaestor.

Dr Rad  43:29

So what ends up happening is he uses a lictor. And these are the guys that obviously follow now just straight surround with the fasces and whatnot.

Dr G  43:39

Yeah, request should have about two maximum.

Dr Rad  43:42

Well, he’s using one of them to arrest a brawling soldier. Now, this leads to more violence. I mean, it’s a lesson here, right? Violence just begets more violence, and a disturbance breaks out. And our quaestor is struck by a stone in the fray. And he runs away before he gets hurt. Even worse. I mean, I presume that by this stage, he’s probably terrified, he’s going to be like, lynched or something like that. Now, the man who was thrown the stone at our quaestor, or Publius, shouts out that Publius had been treated, as Postumius had intended to treat the soldiers. So it’s like a poetic justice. He’s like, this is clearly what Postumius wanted to do to us. And now you guys are getting some of your own medicine.

Dr G  44:32

Goodness me.

Dr Rad  44:34

So Postumius is summoned back to this army, because he clearly has to address the situation.

Dr G  44:41

You gotta get your troops out of control, man, they just threw a rock at your questo

Dr Rad  44:46

even hitting the head, it’s not good. Now Postumius continues to be a wrongheaded man. Because he makes his situation even worse again. Oh no. My dealing with it with really harsh interrogation and brutal punishment?

Dr G  45:04

Good. Oh, just let me go into any detail of what those might be.

Dr Rad  45:09

Yes, he does actually. His anger gets really out of control. Some men are executed. I mean, there’s really no higher punishment than that. Yeah. And I can kind of understand why not in the sense that I think it’s justified. But in a Roman mindset, if they are actually like mutinous soldiers, well, you do tend to see pretty extreme punishments to deal with that kind of stuff in ancient Rome.

Dr G  45:33

Yeah. And military discipline historically has sort of followed these kinds of lines. Because if you can’t follow the orders of your superiors, then it creates a huge issue for the safety of everybody.

Dr Rad  45:45

Yes, exactly. These executions were apparently carried out using a hurdle. Now, my only knowledge of a hurdle is the thing that you would jump over. I wasn’t

Dr G  45:57

gonna say I’m like, are we talking like the 100 metre hurdles? Because like, I suppose anything that’s heavy, you could slap at somebody, but I, I suspect that this is not what is being referred to?

Dr Rad  46:07

No, because what Livy’s says is that the people who are being executed who I presume I like, the ringleaders, you know, maybe the guy who threw the stone. He would be the obvious target. We’re calling him Rocky. Yeah, Rocky I. So rocky one cried out during his execution. And this ends up attracting the attention of a crowd of people, it would seem that a hurdle might be something which allows you to be crushed to death. So they put really heavy weights and stones on top of you until you are crushed.

Dr G  46:40

Geez, that is a terrible way to die. Yeah,

Dr Rad  46:43

I mean, this guy is out of control. He really is wrongheaded.

Dr G  46:47

Postumius. What were you thinking wrong things all the time.

Dr Rad  46:50

I know. So obviously, a crowd is gathering around because there’s noise coming from the place of executions, so Postumius and rushes over from his tribunal, because he doesn’t want anyone to try and interfere with the executions and to try and stop them and feel sorry for these guys. lictors and Centurions start lashing out at the crowd, and they’re trying to push them back so that they can’t interfere with the punishments that are going on. And of course, does the crowd take this? Well, you better believe they don’t. And essentially, what ends up happening in all of this, in this violence, mele is that Postumius is stoned to death.

Dr G  47:30

Wow. Okay,

Dr Rad  47:32

By his soldiers, not just a random crowd.  Yeah, it becomes full circle, essentially. It’s like one stone was thrown, but it’s led to a whole volley. So obviously, this is a huge deal because one of the leading magistrates of the state has just been killed by his own army, whilst trying to administer justice and discipline.

Dr G  47:57

Wow, okay. Look, these details are really interesting. I have a slightly different version of events, which I’m not going to suggest in any way would be superior to what you’ve just told me because it comes from Dio Cassius.

Dr Rad  48:13

Oh, okay. So for our listeners, Dio Cassius is writing hundreds of years after Livy and Dionysius, so really, really late really late.

Dr G  48:23

And he also writes the history of Rome from the foundation of the city. But he’s he’s starting from a much later point in Rome’s history in his ability to get hold of material is even more challenging. But he does talk about this. And it comes under a heading, it comes from a fragment. With a heading, democracy consists not in all winning absolutely the same prizes, but in every man obtaining his desserts,

Dr Rad  48:52

ah, that kind of sounds like he’s on the side of the crowd.

Dr G  48:56

So he tells us that Postumius has conquered the Aequii, and he’s captured Bolae. Yes, but the soldiers had had it turned over to them for pillage, but they weren’t awarded a share of the plunder when they requested it. So they did the job that Postumius is leading. Now like we need to pillage this place we need to get the loot. And once the loot has all been collected, Postumius rounds it all up and places it with the quest all the trips are like, what about our booty? We where’s our share of the booty because usually it comes in and then it gets redistributed. It’s not just like a free for all and you pick up whatever piece that you pick up and it’s yours. The idea is it’s done as a collective and then it’s redistributed out. So if you did really well that day in the pillaging on the battlefield or whatever, the commander would give you maybe a bigger portion of the booty, a nicer piece if you like. Yeah, when that didn’t happen when that request was denied. This is when things become really unhinged for This army, okay, and they surround the quaestor. So because they have a particular spot where, and obviously their city got all of the booty, and then they kill the quaestor, just like that. Right? And then when Postumius reprimands them, and it’s like, Excuse me, guys, you can’t just kill quaestor. I know. No Reason No. Why are you listening? And he starts to try to sort of do an investigation to try and figure out like, you know, who’s the ringleaders in this, get around them up, bring them to justice, the army turn on him and kill him as well.

Dr Rad  50:35

Right. So it’s a bit more dramatic, and there’s a little less justification?

Dr G  50:41

Well, I don’t know if there’s less justification, I think the idea of being denied a portion of the booty is actually a hugely significant move from Postumius. Because this is not something that we’ve really come across before where a commander says, under no circumstances, you’re getting a share of this booty. Yeah, I

Dr Rad  51:01

know. But I feel like my vision where he said they could have it and then to change his mind. I mean,

Dr G  51:07

that does make him more wrongheaded. That’s true.

Dr Rad  51:11

I could get quite murderous if someone said I could have a piece of cake and then said, fair enough, is a dangerous move. It is

Dr G  51:19

a dangerous move. And regardless of how this came about, so we’re not really quite sure of the technicalities on this, what we’re seeing is that there is a disciplinary sort of breakdown within the armed forces, that is the result of a style of leadership, for sure. Yeah. So Rome is starting to build out an understanding of what is possible to get soldiers to do and to agree to and where the line is for what you cannot ask a soldier to do. Yeah, at the risk of your own life as a commander or one of the officers. All

Dr Rad  51:55

right, what happens in my account next is that naturally back in Rome, people hear about the fact that Postumius was I don’t know, stoned to death, and the military tribunes with constant power, obviously want a senatorial inquiry into the death because this is super unusual. However, the tribune says the plebs step in and use their veto power to stop an inquiry from going forward.

Dr G  52:19

Wow. Okay, so Marcus Sextius Getting in there

Dr Rad  52:24

he is. And now, of course, we don’t know if this review is really did have at this point in time, but let’s run with it. Now, the Senate are really worried because obviously, the men under Postumius command were really riled up to go through with this. And the people back in Rome are really riled up because of this comment. Postumius made I mean, never before has sticks or stones may break your bones, but words can really hurt me been so true, For everybody involved. And they’re really concerned, and they are worried that if they go ahead and have elections for military tribunes with consular power, that this might be the year where a plebeian finally gets elected, because the people are just so angry.

Dr G  53:08

I’m so pissed off, I’m going to run for government

Dr Rad  53:11

exactly good and make that I’m going to be the change I want to see in the world. And they want, they might want to play and in that office, because they could then stop any Inquisition from going forward. So that would be the idea. I guess that the tribunes have vetoed it. And their way of making sure that it couldn’t come up in the following year was by getting one of their own on the inside, you know, they pushed really hard for Consular elections. They wanted to have consuls, so that it had to be patricians. And then obviously, they want to have their inquiry, right. The tribunes of the plebs naturally see through this, and they’re not gonna let it happen. And so once again, we find ourselves in a standoff between the Senate and the tribune of the plebs. And we’re in an interregnum, basically, huh? Yeah. Which is this weird thing, this weird hangover from the Regal period?

Dr G  54:07

Well, when Yeah, whenever you can’t find a way to get a magistracy up and happening using the appropriate timeframe and the appropriate ritual circumstances then you have to have this interim official. Yeah, then. So they’re still called the interacts even though they’re largely responsible for the chief magistrates, the consulship.

Dr Rad  54:28

Anyway, eventually the Senate ended up prevailing so spoiled that there’s going to be consuls in the next year.

Dr G  54:37

I’ll keep that one under my hat.

Dr Rad  54:40

It’s pretty crazy, but that is where the story really wraps up. Interesting. I know. So it’s again, it is another episode that kind of ties into the conflict of the orders, but it also has a lot more to it than that, I think, because of the way that you know the army is involved and also the reputation of one particular family. If I made after she, I’d like to say a little bit about the Postumii.

Dr G  55:03

Please do.

Dr Rad  55:04

The Postumii have not had a great run. In our history so far, they’re always coming across as the harshest of harsh Romans. I mean, they’re the Brillo pads of the Roman world,

Dr G  55:19

the elite of the elite,

Dr Rad  55:21

they just getting into trouble a lot recently. So we had the really severe dictator not that long ago, who was a Postumius guy who killed his own son for his conduct during a battle that he was in charge of. So this guy wasn’t wrongheaded, per se, but he was held up obviously, as being particularly severe because he would kill his own son as a punishment. Then, of course, we also had a military Tribune with consular power in the mid 420s, who was terrible in his conduct of battle against Veii and ended up being hauled over the coals for that. So you end up in court, they wanted to find him he was that bad. And then, of course, we also had, lest we forget the Vestal virgin Postumia, who’s obviously from this family, who was very nearly buried alive not long ago.

Dr G  56:14

It’s not her fault. I don’t think you can throw her in with all of them. No, no, no. But it might have been a move to get back at their family, for

Dr Rad  56:22

sure, exactly. This is the question that we can pose. Obviously, we can’t answer it. But is it possible that in this very tumultuous period, where we’re looking at sort of from the second decemvirate, it really almost down to the close of this century, there’s a lot of issues, obviously, with Rome, that’s why we’re seeing all these stories about the conflict of the orders, even though the conflict of the orders might not be a real thing is quite clear that Rome is going through some teething problems. And if we Look at this as being part of what you and I have talked about, as maybe this period is actually more about warlords and strong men and alliances, you know, families very much alike, if you will, it’s possible that the Postumii are on the outs, then not doing well in these, you know, in this these feuds, perhaps, between families. And we can, of course, see that there are links between the Postumius and other families. So we’ve, we’ve seen some familiar links between them and their Sempronii and the Quinctii and that sort of thing. But it seems like maybe these bonds are being really tested by what is happening at this moment. Yeah,

Dr G  57:31

you got enough bad eggs. So you’re gonna have to flick through the whole family away, as it were. So I think this ties in really nicely to this pattern of patrician families that I’ve been looking into. So I thought,

Dr Rad  57:44

Wait, I have one more to hold on. One more details. And I promise it’s all yours. So just another interesting thing to note, and again, not that I’m saying this, this wasn’t a real guy, he was really a douchebag. But there is an interesting parallel with a much later story about Postumius Albinus, who was killed by sailors under his command and 89 BCE, during the siege of Pompeii, during the social was Hmm. So that’s also just an interesting thing to note. I mean, again, doesn’t mean that this guy wasn’t starving to death, or it doesn’t mean he didn’t exist or whatever. But once again, we’re seeing those interesting trends, or those interesting connections, maybe foreshadow, who knows, from that later public, which is more obviously better documented, particularly for the people who are writing and our main sources.

Dr G  58:44

Yeah, for sure. A bit in the same way that we see those potential parallels with Decius from the previous year. Yeah, exactly. They’ve got some closest stories, and they they’re interested in building out a sort of a moral pattern related to families, which is very much in this Roman way of thinking that, you know, your family determined something about your character. And certainly, that’s true, but it doesn’t bode well for the Postumii as a particular gens right now, because they’re coming across badly.

Dr Rad  59:14

And with that being said, I will now hand over to you and you can tell me everything you want about the Postumii Oh, Look, it’s some basic maths, but what I was interested in, because we’re seeing a lot of names crop up a lot. And I was like, well, actually, am is that a feeling for me? Or is this a pattern in the evidence? And I was like, it’s time to do some spreadsheet eating. So the question I asked myself, because I didn’t want to go back to write to the beginning of the Republic, because I just, I’m not in the mood for that right now. But I was like, Who has dominated the politics in the last 20 years from a family perspective? Who has really come across as like, you know, the top families to to watch out for so in my examination of like, you know, all of the magistrates that we’ve looked at so far And I just focused on the protrusion. So I left the treatment of the plebs to one side for now. There were 28 distinct gens that came up in that. So there’s a lot of family competition going on. There’s definitely more families than we’ve got years that we’ve studied. So I’m looking at 434 down to 414. Okay, the top family in terms of position holding is the Quinctii again, no surprises there, which Yeah, I don’t think that would come as a surprise because that the branch of the Cincinnatus comes out of that gens, for instance. Exactly. And they hold for console ships, five military tributes, and they also have a military Legate chucked in there, but even I am very impressed by your mathematical dedication.

Dr G  1:00:47

Oh, no, I can I made a spreadsheet and then I did some at the end, it was very impressive. That is about the extent of my mathematical skill. So even if you discount the one military legate because that’s, you know, not a hugely illustrious position. Big deal. They still have nine, we’re still puts them ahead. So for consulships, five military tribunes, they’re followed swiftly by the Papirii. Again, yes, who have two consuls, three military tribunes with consular power, two censors, and one interrex. Ooh, fancy pants time for them. And then we get into a three way tie. So things are not straight and smooth at the top. It is highly competitive, even in his very early period, according to the records that we have the three way tie for third position, so they’re all getting the bronze medal, the Servilii, the Postumii and the Fabii. Yes, so the fabulous Fabians, they’re in there. Each of these gens hold seven positions of elite power across those 20 years. Yeah. Now whether the Postumii can continue up with this trend may very well depend on what kind of characters they produce in the next generation. I know they better watch so there’s wrong heads. I know I mean, get their heads screwed on straight, you know, the wrong headedness of it. So, the only other thing I have to mention is things like you know, Diodorus Siculus, getting all of the names kind of wrong for this year. Very cute. He’s trying his best, he got all the kind of the gens names, right, and all of the praenomens wrong as far as we can tell. And that is the end of 414 BCE. As far as I’m concerned.

Dr Rad  1:02:34

Well, I’m very impressed by your spreadsheet. And because I avoid Excel like the plague.

Dr G  1:02:40

Fair enough, fair enough. I wouldn’t say I go to it to have a good time. But I was like, You know what, I need to put this in a different way. So my mind can sort of wrap around the information differently. And I think it helped. I think

Dr Rad  1:02:51

it helped. Yeah, like, and it does confirm, you know, because of the way that we do this, where we’re going year by year, like the Romans themselves would have done. Sometimes you kind of have a very hazy feeling of like, Look, that name sounds familiar, but I can’t really remember how many times I’ve really said it in the past year. Maybe I said it every episode, you certainly know that certain names are coming up more than others. For sure. It’s good to have it all at all confirmed. Now the final interesting detail I’m going to add because we just we did just note that obviously we’ve got this like weird interregnum period thing. When we’ve got a standoff between the plebeians and the Senate. It’s possible that what we’re seeing with the interregnum is me not necessarily when there is a standoff between patricians and plebeians. But potentially it’s something that comes up when we’re switching from military Tribune’s to consuls or back the other way.

Dr G  1:03:48

Yeah, potentially. And I could see how this might have more of effects for the consulship than it would for military Tribunes with consular power. Yes, they might be considered lesser, just in general. Sure. If indeed, they existed at all.

Dr Rad  1:04:03

Who knows? I mean, this is the thing did interregnum even happen. I like

Dr G  1:04:08

to think so. I know, well believe that because the Romans do like this kind of thing of like, you know, it’s got to be done the right way. So the interrex is basically a ritual and legislative functionary to ensure that things happen in the right way, in the periods where things are not currently happening the way that they’re supposed to.

Dr Rad  1:04:27

Indeed, Indeed. All right, Dr. G. Well, I think that that means it’s time for the Partial Pick.

Dr G  1:04:38

Well, those 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs, they can you can win up to 10 Eagles in each of the five categories. And we’ll see how Rome goes, indeed. All right.

Dr Rad  1:04:48

What’s our first category Dr. G, military cloud? Ah, yes. Well, I mean, technically, militarily, they actually do pretty well. I mean, it’s not obviously a major thing. Livy’s clearly unimpressed.

Dr G  1:05:00

Describe it at all. Well,

Dr Rad  1:05:01

so unimpressed that I’m really confused about what I’m talking about, like, is this the thing that he didn’t want to describe? Did that happen earlier? I don’t know. But it’s obviously not the battle itself. That’s impressive. But nonetheless, they win Bolae for a short time anyway.

Dr G  1:05:17

They do. And only the other wars got cancelled. So that’s fine.

Dr Rad  1:05:22

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess I’d probably give them I don’t know, like, maybe a full

Dr G  1:05:27

Yeah, cuz it doesn’t work out great afterwards. And it is related to the warfare. So

Dr Rad  1:05:31

it is related to that. But in terms of them actually conquering something they have that done well, yeah. Yeah. Okay. That’s cool.

Dr G  1:05:39

All right. Our second category is diplomacy. I don’t know. I think that’s a zero to diplomacy. No.

Dr Rad  1:05:50

Externally where there’s war, I don’t think there can be much diplomacy. So that’s a zero and On the homefront. Certainly everyone’s at each other’s throats.

Dr G  1:05:58

Yeah, exactly. That’s it. That’s no way you’re right there. Okay. Expansion.

Dr Rad  1:06:03

Well, yes, they do add Bolae to their empire for a short time, at least.

Dr G  1:06:10

They haven’t lost it yet. So I suppose we can give them one point for that. It’s very close to home.

Dr Rad  1:06:16

It is. But you know what, it’s been a long time. Well, no, actually, you know, it hasn’t been that long. We had Labici Recently, but it it’s been a long time before Labici came along. And now Bolae, which is right next door, I feel like we have to get them at least a three.

Dr G  1:06:31

Oh, negotiate you to

Dr Rad  1:06:35

everyone’s gonna call you then you pursued me, because you’re being way harsh. Oh, my God, but that’s fine, too.

Dr G  1:06:43

You know, I just, you know, when they do something good, I want to give them a reward. And I feel like, you know, it’s next door. And you know, like, you didn’t really have to try that hard, did you?

Dr Rad  1:06:50

Well, yeah. But like, that’s gonna be the case for a really long time. Technically, everything’s next door, the more that they keep expanding, everything’s gonna be next door.

Dr G  1:06:58

And I will continue to be wrongheaded.

Dr Rad  1:07:02

You know, I think they’re gonna conquer like, I don’t know, Dacia and you’re gonna be like, whatever the border was right there.

Dr G  1:07:08

I mean, you were literally next door when you started,

Dr Rad  1:07:10

right? I mean, like, you would just like, you’re right there. Or you were like, you were like camped there. I mean, you had like an encampment, whatever.

Dr G  1:07:18

Guys. All right, Virtus. What was there expressions of manliness going on?

Dr Rad  1:07:26

Well I mean, Postumius was harsh.

Dr G  1:07:31

But that doesn’t really work out for him. So

Dr Rad  1:07:35

I don’t think we can count it as way to us as much as douchebaggery.

Dr G  1:07:41

Fair enough. Okay. So that’s a zero, I believe, as well. It is. And finally the citizens score. Was this a good time to be a Roman citizen?

Dr Rad  1:07:51

Or no, no, no. I mean, they I didn’t even get a piece of booty. Oh, my God. Yeah. Not only that, but they’re obviously also really upset by feeling undervalued that people higher up in their society. I mean, there is no one higher than a military champion with concealer power, you know, at the time that they hold office. Yeah, they’re not feeling good. And it’s obviously a pretty terrible time to be a citizen, I think. Especially because if it was going on, as we know, obviously, that means that people are also serving away from their families risking their lives.

Dr G  1:08:27

Indeed, this is a big ask, well, how many how many golden eagles that they get. I never do the math on this.

Dr Rad  1:08:36

appropriately in a year, which we have a tribune named Sextius, we end up with six golden eagle.

Dr G  1:08:43

Wow, six. Okay. Look, that sounds pretty good. Really, given how Rome has been trending lately?

Dr Rad  1:08:50

Well, six out of 50 is not great, but I guess that’s what you get for stoning your commander today. Oh, and for the commander to crush people to death, and I really, really heavy stone. Yeah, not

Dr G  1:09:04

great. Not ideal at all. It is. It is not? Well, it has been an absolute pleasure to discuss the years 415 and 414. With you, Dr. Rad,

Dr Rad  1:09:16

I know I’m looking forward to discussing 413 Because I mean, I feel like that’s got to be an unlucky age.

Dr G  1:09:24

We will soon find out

Dr Rad  1:09:26

who knows maybe consuls will be being murdered in a street.

Dr G  1:09:30

Stay tuned for our next episode.

Dr Rad  1:09:33

Before Dr. G and I leave you we just like to remind you that we are going to be speaking at the intelligent speech conference this year. So please head on over to the intelligent speech website. And if you use the code, P E I C E, you will be able to get a discount off your ticket and down there the partial historian sent you. It’s coming up very soon in November. So you’ll probably want to register soon. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcripts in our show notes. And music is by Bettina joy de Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more excellent content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and some occasional bonus content as well. Today we’d like to give a special shout out to Dendrio and Asrar who became Patreon back in September 2022. So if our math is correct, since we are releasing this episode in September 2023 That makes it our one year anniversary. You could also support us by buying us a coffee on Kofi. However, if you aren’t feeling particularly patrician these days, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. That goes for our book as well. If you enjoyed Rex, the seven kings of Rome please make sure you leave review on Amazon or Gumroad. Until next time. We are yours in ancient Rome

The post Episode 142 – A Wrongheaded Man appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

This may be the best podcast episode you’ve ever heard, and that’s the gospel truth. We’re munching on protein bars and raw chicken as we discuss Disney’s Hercules (1997) with Professor Alastair Blanshard.

Statue of Hercules in Shrewsbury – a copy of the Farnese Hercules. Hercules leans wearily on his club, which is covered by his lionskin. Carrying out all these labours is hard work! Courtesy of Elliot Brown on Flickr.

Professor Blanshard literally wrote the book on Hercules, as well as several chapters on his representation in film. We are so lucky to have him on our show as he is not just a gigantic Hercules fanboy. He is currently the Paul Eliadis Chair of Classics and Ancient History at The University of Queensland and one of the most hilarious historians you will ever meet.

Disney’s Hercules came out during one of the most successful animated movie streaks for the studio. However, the film was a little different to the Disney Princess films such as Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid. It was also pitched at a slightly older, male audience, and used the story of Hercules to explore the awkward journey from adolescence to manhood.  

As people have learnt about muscle development and nutrition has changed, Hercules has often been played by bodybuilders like Steeve Reeves and more recently Dwayne ‘The Rock’ Johnson. Image of Steeve Reeves, courtesy of John Irving on Flickr.

Disney does not always provide the most faithful representation of Hercules’ story. How do you turn a myth about a serial murderer, a drunkard and a glutton into an exploration of what it means to be a true hero? Never you fear – Disney has all the answers!

This film blends stories of Hercules, such as his strangling of the snakes as a baby and the Twelve Labours, with so many other elements from contemporary American society. Whilst Hercules was not quite as successful as other Disney movies of this era, there is a lot to love about this representation.

The Greeks were not afraid to rework their own mythology, and it seems like Disney followed in their footsteps.

Hercules having a chat with his father in Zeus’ temple at Olympia in Disney’s Hercules (1997). Courtesy of Adam Hammond.

Join us for this fascinating conversation about the Disneyfication of a Greek hero. We delve into the characterisation of all your favourite characters: Meg, Phil, Hades, and of course, the man of the hour.

Special Episode – Disney’s Hercules (1997)

If you would like to read more from Professor Blanshard, you can find a list of publications on his university profile. You can also find his contributions on The Conversations here.

Our music is courtesy of Bettina joy de Guzman,

Join us at the Intelligent Speech Conference this year! The event will be held online on November 4. You can buy tickets here and watch the event live, or access the videos later. If you use the code PEICE at checkout, you get 10% off your tickets and they’ll know that we sent you.

Our automated transcript is provided by Otter AI.

Dr Rad 0:00
Hey there listeners at the partial Historians tell me, are you doing anything on November for? No? Well, Dr. Jean, I have just the invitation for you come along to the intelligent speech conference for 2023. And hear us and other amazing presenters talk all about the theme of the year, which is contingencies. What happens when history meets the backup plan? How intriguing does that sound? Just head along to intelligence speech online.com to buy your tickets now. And if you’re worried about the time difference, never you fear you can of course, join in the event live online, but you can also watch the videos afterwards at your own convenience. So what are you waiting for? Go and grab your tickets now. And if you use the code peace, P E, I C E at the checkout, they’ll know the partial history and sent you and you’ll get a lovely 10% off. We hope to see you there.

Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 1:21
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 1:25
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Red.

Dr G 1:36
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 1:46
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a special episode of the partial historians. I’m one of your hosts Dr Rad

Dr G 2:15
and I am Dr. G. And we’re pretty excited about the conversation that we’re about to have today. I mean, personally, I’m a big Hercules fan. And that might be a little bit of foreshadowing.

Dr Rad 2:28
Indeed, we are so lucky to be joined by I think it’s safe to say the world’s largest expert on Hercules, which is Alastair Blanshard. Alastair Blanshard is the Paul Eliadis professor of classics and ancient history, as well as the author of some amazing books that you might like to get your hands on, including classics on screen and Hercules a heroic life.

Dr G 2:52
Thank you so much for joining us, Alastair.

A Blanshard 2:54
Great to be here. And I’m not sure about the largest expert, but certainly the biggest fanboy for Hercules

Dr Rad 3:00
that makes you the expert in our book. So we’re gonna be talking about Disney’s Hercules in particular today, which is really great for us because we’ve been revisiting a lot of classic films, and so Hercules naturally fits right in. But before we dive straight into the Disney version of things, it’s probably good to give our listeners a bit of background on who Hercules actually is, or dare I say, Herakles.

Speaker 3 3:24
Yes, absolutely. So, Herakles, as he’s known amongst the Greeks, and Hercules, as he’s called by the Romans was probably the most popular of the ancient heroes. Certainly his worship is found throughout the Mediterranean from signs in the far corners of Spain all the way through to Southern France. Indeed, the modern Principality of Monaco is actually named after in fact, a temple dedicated to Hercules, Hercules monoikos, Hercules, the man who lives alone, and so monoikos becomes Monaco, but to his worship continues, obviously in Greece all the way through the Black Sea to all be our panic a pm no places where modern day Ukraine is. And of course, there are important sanctuary sites in Lebanon, North Africa. So throughout the Mediterranean, Hercules was a figure that was well known and well respected and worship.

Dr Rad 4:17
Absolutely. I seem to recall some Roman emperors letting to dress up like Hercules and run around arenas, and we were just actually talking about little NAS X and his music video for call me by your name and how he might be dressed up as Hercules but like a baby pink Hercules?

A Blanshard 4:35
Well, we’ll Look at don’t even get me started on that video clip because that is for a classicist, or one of the greatest clips ever. I mean, not only does it include all the coliseums type scenes, him dressed up as characters, but also a quotation in actual Greek from Plato’s Symposium as well, from Aristophanes speech about the nature of the soul and how it’s looking for its long lost partner. So So for a classicist that that is the film clip to end all film clips,

Dr G 5:03
it is basically catnip for classicists.

A Blanshard 5:08
Who knew that that was the market he was going for? It’s done

Dr G 5:11
really well, we now all talk about it. And we have a great time and all of us kind of like, we just want to meet him and sit down and have a good chat about it.

A Blanshard 5:19
Yes, I really want to know who chose that passage from the symposium because it’s so perfect in terms of the concept of the song. But also the decision to carve it onto the tree in in Greek is really, really striking.

Dr Rad 5:33
I know we were speaking to Yentl love about X, we’ve tried a special FSA just on that one particular clip. And we were asking her like, Where does this come from? Like, who is working on this? Is this all from him? Like, who are the people that he’s consulting with?

Dr G 5:46
And also, how do we get a job? But to drag it back to Hercules inherently, he’s thinking about the sort of how he’s positioned in the ancient world? What are some of the sort of key touchstones in the mythology that surrounds this figure so that we can set up a sort of a comparison between what the sort of the ancient Greeks and the ancient Mediterranean world thought about this figure and the stories they told and how that might end up comparing to what Disney presents us with?

A Blanshard 6:15
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s a very, very good question. And it’s a really interesting question to ask for Heroclix because one of the things about Hara Cleves is because he’s worshipped in so many different places, there are so many different stories. And so we imagine really, that the mythology around Hercules was enormous, every place would have had its own little Hercules story, its own variation about how hurricanes came to their town often established, you know, an important institution or, or a right. And so really, in fact, the myths that we have about hurricanes that have come down to us are probably in the tip of a huge iceberg of stories that would have been circulating in in antiquity, I guess, in terms of thinking about the grand narratives to occupy Hercules as life that I think I guess there are, there are probably a couple of kind of key points. And obviously the 12 labours is a is a central point. And these were the 12 labours that Hercules had to perform as expiation for the murder of his wife and children. And that’s a topic I think, we’ll get into discussing, particularly when we come to the Herrick Lee’s film because it’s totally glossed over. But Hercules, the wife killer, the child killer, has to wash the blood from his hands. And He does this by performing a number of labours for King Eurystheus. That’s you. I guess one of the great central themes or stories that relates to Hercules would live there are a number of other other kinds of stories, there’s a story about his eventual death where he is poisoned effectively by a woman who loved him, dear Naira, who accidentally thinking that she’s going to make her clothes love her by applying a love potion to his clothes is in fact tricked into applying a kind of burning poison to his close. And so he dies in agony, and his eventual soul is sent to the heavens where it’s worshipped as the divine as a divine figure. I guess that’s one of the important stories. I guess the other sort of important story is the story about his birth, which again, was a kind of very important one. So again, it’s a story that the Disney film isn’t particularly keen on, on showing because it’s all a story about adultery and deceit, and involves Hercules being the product of Zeus or Jupiter, coming down to earth, falling in love with a woman by the name of Alcmene and then appearing to her while her husband’s away in the form of her husband. And he then sleeps with her, and she thinks she’s sleeping with them photo on her husband. Now, in modern days, this would be rape, right? This is a classic case of what lawyers would call rate by personation. And this is, you know, you consent achieved by deceit, but the ancient world didn’t see this as right. They saw this as just a very convenient ruse on the part on the part of Jupiter. And indeed, they even played it for comic effect. So for example, plotters in the play in vitro, has this as a kind of comic setup with their people going, are you in vitro? No, you’re in vitro and they play it for kind of laughs now. Now, you can play it for laughs The Greeks also played it for tragedy. So in fact, we know that there is a fragmentary tragedy, the Alcmene which takes a scenario and which has Amphitryon arriving back at home to discover that his wife has been sleeping with another man. He doesn’t believe her claims that she thought she was sleeping with her husband. And in fact, he puts on her pilot and is about to set fire to an incinerator alive when in fact that Zeus appears and sorts everything out. But this extraordinary birth story of Hercules who is the product of this rape by deceit could be played for both comic effects and tragic effects in the in the ancient world. but those are I think those are I think the three stories, the birth, the 12 Labours and the death, I think are probably the three key elements in the Hercules narrative.

Dr Rad 10:08
Yeah, and like most Greek myths, I think it doesn’t automatically scream made for children in this modern age, because there is just so much murder and violence and trickery and adultery and all sorts of issues that run all throughout Hercules.

A Blanshard 10:25
Yes, okay. Anyone who started to tell a Greek myth for children suddenly finds themselves having to gloss over over things. And the numbers of nightmares. I’ve given my poor nieces and nephews, as I’ve told them stories of the ancient world, it’s really, really too many to name.

Dr Rad 10:42
And yes, I suppose, where all the products are being told Greek myths.

Dr G 10:47
Yeah, it’s it’s really interesting that there is obviously so much violence at the centre of these stories. And I think that’s it’s definitely not uncommon for the ancient world to sort of have these sort of like lessons that are really sort of bruntly felt upon the body as much as upon the psyche. And yet, somehow, Disney has thought, you know, what would be a great tale to tell on the animated screen, the life of a hero? And who better to choose then Hercules?

A Blanshard 11:18
Yeah, it’s absolutely extraordinary, as you say, I mean, Hercules, Hercules is the figure that in fact, the ancient world does a lot of thinking about in terms of violence, right. So he’s the figure, in fact, who was so violent, so bloody in terms of his actions, that in fact, the Delphic Oracle refuses to wash his hands of blood. So he turns up having murdered a whole series of people again, and turns up to the Delphic Oracle and says, Look, you know, once again, sorry, kill have killed a lot of people, can you wash the blood of my hands? Can you make me once again, clean and the Delphic Oracle says, No, not this time, I’m just sick of you turning up here, completely covered in Gore, having just murdered a whole lot of people, we’re not going to do it this time. And Hercules is outraged. He grabs the tripod, on which the Oracle sits and he says, I’m gonna go establish my own oracle that will allow me to be cleansed whenever I need it, which is obviously a lot. And at this point, Apollo appears, and wrestles the tripod back from Hercules and we have this in a lot of ancient art. There are a lot of ancient artistic depictions of Apollo and heroically is wrestling over the Delphic tripod. Now, what’s interesting is that Zeus intervenes, and he sends a thunderbolt which splits the two and, and he says to Apollo, Look, it’s your job to purify those who commit crimes. So yes, you’re going to have to purify again. And so establishes the principle that in fact, you know, there’s no crime for which you shouldn’t be able to get purification from it’s important Greek principle. And, and it’s Hara Cleves, who becomes as it were the, the test case for this, that if you could, if you can cleanse Heroclix of blood, then basically you can cleanse anyone,

Dr G 13:10
goodness me, I felt like when you were talking about that kind of detail, it just put me in mind of like, where Roman Catholicism ends up. And I was like, Oh, that’s a fascinating sort of, anyway, I don’t want to go down that rabbit hole. But nevertheless, this idea of Hercules like sitting in this really interesting nexus of putting limits to the test, whether they be physical endurance, whether it be the necessity to be cleansed. I think this leads us really nicely into thinking about the film and potentially how they’ve decided to characterise Hercules in the Disney version through his physicality.

A Blanshard 13:47
Yeah, Look, it was a really interesting choice for them to do a hurricane so that they canvassed a couple of other options. They were clearly very keen to do something in the ancient world, and two stories were greenlit. So there was a one a project based on Homer’s Odyssey, and a project based on Hercules. And in the end, they decided to go for Hercules. Now, they’re thinking about this was quite interesting, because they felt that the Odyssey was something too sacred that you couldn’t play about with, with the Odyssey in the way that you could do with Hercules and Hercules, you could have more fun with interesting concept, and also, that he was far more adaptable. And that second issue of adaptability. I think they’re onto something because as I said, there are a lot of Hercules stories. And so, you know, I think there was a bit more play in the, in the in the Herculesmyth in a way that there isn’t art with the Odyssey that said, no one would have recognised what they did to directly story in the ancient world. But, but certainly, I think the notion of the ability of Hara cleaves it visa vie the Odyssey is probably probably right. But but the extraordinary an extraordinary, extraordinary choice.

Dr Rad 14:56
Yeah, well, I suppose you’re giving us a bit of context for the film. So Hercules comes at the tail end of this real resurgence for the Disney Studio. So it was released I think in 1997. And Disney, of course has just had a string of mega hits like the Lion King Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin all these sorts of films. So Hercules is coming at sort of the tail end of this particular era. And I believe that they were kind of thinking that Hercules might be more for a preteen, particularly male audience.

A Blanshard 15:29
Yeah, absolutely. Right. So this is, you know, the IOC called Eisner era and Disney right. So, you know, after the disaster of Black Cauldron in 1985, which almost put an end to animation in Disney, the Disney Corporation decides that we need to really rejig things we need to rethink the whole programme in terms of animated films. And so Michael Eisner, and then Roy Disney together really rejig the animation studios. tremendous success, as you say, no kicks off with Little Mermaid beauty in the Beast, Aladdin, Lion King they inherently use and of course, they’ll go on to Pocahontas. So an extraordinary resurgence, and new Disney is just hitting it out of the park in terms of these in terms of these films, until it hits Hercules. And as you say, they’re trying to do something different, right? So Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin Lion King, primarily, the age group they’re looking for is the kind of six plus I mean, that’s the rough age it Hercules, they think, Well, Look, we’ve conquered that demographic, let’s do something different. And so it’s an 11 Plus audience, so slightly more mature, and also much more boys-y as well. And, and that’s really interesting for Disney. Because, I mean, it’s really interesting to think the way in which Disney dominates the female demographic, you know, the Disney Princess is, you know, the thing that kind of dominates female childhood in a way for many bad, very bad purposes. And indeed, is something that they’re kind of now rethinking, but there hasn’t been, as it were a kind of dominant Disney narrative, um, for boyhood, inherently, as was their attempt to do that. And as a result, hurricanes represents a slight tweaking in terms of the genre and in terms of the format of the film so so if you Look at things like as you say, Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, Lion King, you imagine right a ratio of comedy to drama about three to one. Now, in the Hercules film, what we see is a shift more towards dramas and slightly more drama, and also the nature of the comedy changes as well. So it’s less of the sort of physical comedy, but there’s still quite a lot of physical comedy, but much more kind of knowing, ironic, self reflexive kind of kind of comedy.

Dr Rad 17:45
So this might be a good moment to give a very brief overview of the plotline of this movie, particularly because we’ve told our listeners so much about you know, the murderer and Hercules his life and that sort of thing. So what have they done with the basic plotline? What have they told us about Hercules in this film,

A Blanshard 18:02
right. Okay. So what they what they’ve done is they’ve taken various elements of Greek myth and combined it together. So the overarching narrative is the narrative of the tight end Tamaki, right the the great fight between the Olympian gods and the Titans, and Tyson slash giants. And so what they’ve done is they’ve taken this narrative from myth, and they’ve reworked it in such a way that in order for the gods to succeed in a battle against the Titans, which are imagined in the Disney film was called elemental forces of chaos. In order for the gods to defeat the Titans, they need to have Heroclix on their side. And this really alarms the evil figure in the in the film, who is Hades, who is cast as the villain who wants to overthrow his brothers, Zeus, he really wants to, and he wants to overthrow the gods and he wants to align himself with the Titans. Now, in order to do this, he needs to get rid of Heroclix. And so he does that, first of all, by trying to poison him as a child. And unfortunately, this doesn’t succeed. But what he does do is he manages to poison Hercules so enough so that he becomes mortal, a very strong mortal, and so he is then fostered out to some mortal parents and this is Amphitryon and Alcmene, the figures of who are the traditionally the parents of Hercules and then Hercules grows up as this strong, you know, out of place awkward adolescent who doesn’t really fit into society, his his strength makes him always kind of unduly clumsy. So So in a sense, he’s kind of every awkward adolescent, right and he speaks to the awkwardness of adolescence. He discovers that in fact, he’s the son of Zeus and desperately wants to rejoin his real father as a god and so he does all sorts of actions to try and achieve godhood this is ultimately unsuccessful until he realises that it’s not the actions that make you a god. It’s in fact, what’s inside. And that’s what makes a true hero. And, and this only happens when he falls for a love interest by the name of mega who, unfortunately for him is a pawn of Hades, and she tricks him into sacrificing his life for her. And he does. He does that. And then eventually, the Titans are emerge. But because of the Soul Sacrifice at Hercules, made, he’s allowed to in fact become a great hero. He can then rejoin the battle turns the tide saves the Olympian gods. And then at the very end, when he’s just about to be welcomed into Olympus, which is imagined as the whole pearly gates of heaven. As of Olympus is vector kind of gated community. In this film, he decides actually, really, he wants to be on Earth with mega who’s had a change of heart who’s realised that deep down all along, she loved her athletes. And together, they kind of go off, happily live, it leads to the Disney World happily ever after.

Dr G 21:13
I mean, it’s the sort of thing where there’s so many small details that have been altered and changed along the way to make this incredibly interesting. And it puts you in mind of not just how Disney is attempting to sort of make Hercules sort of fit within their own sort of genre standards, but also the ways in which they’re trying to reshape how you might think about ancient heroism in terms of a modern hero.

A Blanshard 21:42
Yeah, absolutely. And there’s a real clash between a model of heroism which is derived from antiquity and the model of heroism, which is imbued with this very strong Judeo Christian ethos and, and you see it in the figure of Heroclix. Because in the ancient world, in order to be a hero, all you need to do is just be famous, right? heroes were just famous people they were, are often morally bankrupt. I mean, Hercules is a good example right now, not only is he a murderer, no, he’s a rapist. He’s a glutton prone to violent outbursts, who famously murders his music teacher as a child. I mean, he’s really just a terrible person. And so, you know, trying to kind of tidy him up, make him more moral. And again, it’s the same with Odysseus as well, deceit for really, again, violent, bloodthirsty figures. But but that doesn’t matter for the ancient world. As long as you’re famous, as long as you’re spectacular, as long as you’re blessed by the gods. That’s what makes you a hero rather than having any moral content. Now, Disney offers you a totally different version of heroism, right? I’m hearing this is what’s on the inside, right. And there’s a constant discourse throughout the film about what makes a true hero. Now this is distinction of the ancient world wouldn’t have recognised right new hero, true hero, there’s only I think you’re either a hero or you’re not a hero, right, the idea of being a true hero is something that they wouldn’t have recognised. And indeed, this comes to the fore in one of the great musical sequences in the film, which is the zero to hero sequence,

Dr Rad 23:10
my personal favourite.

A Blanshard 23:12
I just love it. It’s the one that gets me humming and tapping. I mean, I know we’re all supposed to love the Michael Bolton’s go to distance but, but for me, it’s zero to hero. And in this sequence, what we have is wonderful montage of Heroclix Hercules doing all the kinds of things that in the ancient world will make you a hero, he beats monsters, but more importantly, though, he gets cash, he gets fame, he’s got these fan girls that are totally obsessed by him. It’s this one. He’s doing endorsements for running shoes. It’s this wonderful sequence about kind of fame and importance and monetary wealth. Now, in the ancient world, this is all you needed to be a hero. But the end of this sequence involves Hercules going to Zeus and saying, Well, looking, I’ve done everything you need me to do, why aren’t I a hero, and he’s da, it’s a hero comes from inside. You didn’t know he’s done everything he needs to do make him a hero. But it’s a great sequence. Because in a sense, the the musical number is supposed to show you what he’s what doesn’t make a true hero. But actually, what it does is give you a very good example of what would have made a hero in the ancient world.

Dr Rad 24:20
Can you get that great line when I hear Hercules is talking to Zeus as well. Zeus is a statue that’s come to life. And he says, you know, Look over the action figure. And I think the ancient world would have been like, yeah, right.

A Blanshard 24:32
Absolutely. That sequence is lovely, because it plays with the very famous chryselephantine statue of Zeus at Olympia, which has course come to life and, and that’s the thing that what everyone says about the, the content of the film visually, it’s extraordinary, right, Gerald Scarfe, one of the really great artists, you know, famous for doing Pink Floyd’s The wall as well as a really series of important players. Cartoons For punch and Sunday Times, you know, just it’s just a fantastic job with this film, it doesn’t Look like any other kind of Disney film and, but it’s just so visually clever. I mean, you know, he was obsessed by the line that you get in Greek vases. And so you see, you know, even the drops of water that fall kind of when they dropped a drop, like, in the shape of Greek, Pfizer’s the, the landscapes are extraordinary. It’s just the most beautiful, exciting visual film. And there are all these lovely little quotations of, of ancient sculpture of ancient VARs forms, time and time, again, a wonderful occasion of ancient architecture. So visually, the film is, is lush and wonderful.

Dr G 25:40
I think there’s a real visual richness to Hercules his body as well, the swirling lines that that sort of demarcate, like his chest and his ears and things like this, which is a real visual Echo to ancient Greek sort of artistry as well.

A Blanshard 25:55
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s very clear that that scarf has been entrusted by the by Greek vase painting, particularly in his depiction of Heroclix. And indeed, there’s a long tradition of artists, particularly Iliff line illustrated, being obsessed by Greek vase painting. So you can go back to something like Aubrey Beardsley, for example, who again, obsessed by Greek line painting. So animators line artists have always found a huge inspiration in Greek vase painting.

Dr Rad 26:25
So do you think as well that the appearance of Hercules in the animated version has been influenced by the representations of Hercules that have come before so famously, Hercules has been embodied by strong man or body builders, so people like Steve Reeves people like Eugene sand out, and more recently, since the Disney film, of course, we’ve had the rock. So do you think that that sort of physical appearance has characterised the animated version as well?

A Blanshard 26:51
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s worthwhile observing that there are two essentially bold body types in this format. There’s the young, kind of scrawny adolescent Hercules. And then there’s the Hara cleis, that emerges after Danny DeVito, otherwise known as Philip TTS, otherwise known as Phil takes him in hand and transforms him into this buff, gorgeous body. And both those bodies are really interesting. I’m struck by what Disney did with this kind of awkward adolescence, because I think that’s probably the critically most successful bit of a film is imagining this hero as this kind of awkward adolescence. And it’s striking that actually the most importance, I guess, spin off of the film was in fact the hair Achlys animated series that they did for television, which was a series of episodes of essentially, young Herrick leaves at school and his his friends, he’s got a fantastic Cassandra friend who’s always having these visions that no one understands. And Icarus figure has kind of been flying too close to the sun that’s kind of spaced out. And now that was a that was probably much more successful. I think critically, then the film itself, and it focused very much on that adolescent here at least. And I think that’s quite interesting. But as you say, when when he when he’s buff, and full bodied, he’s absolutely in line of the kind of standard peplum Heracles that we know from figures like Steve Reeves, whose 1960s heritage leaves films really defined, defined our notions of what Reeves has been, or should be. And indeed, I mean, there’s a, as you say, there’s a long tradition starts with Sandow, pretending to be the wiry Heracles and his famous stage show where he imitated life synthases famous statue of the weary Heracles, that body type of hurricanes is quite interesting, because it makes a hurricane, it’s very good at lifting things, breaking things, not so good at running. I mean, if you’ve ever seen a bodybuilder run, right, you know, their fires get in the way, right? There’s just a whole lot of chafing that’s happening there. And, and that’s interesting, because it was one of the labours of Hercules is in fact, him chasing down the sneaking Hind of Artemis. So one of the one of the very famous labours of Hercules involves him really running very fast. Yeah, it’s hard to imagine if these bodybuilders running fast, or indeed, you know, in a sense, Disney’s Hercules as well,

Dr Rad 29:13
you’ve actually highlighted that I think a bit in your work, the fact that the Hercules body that we’re perhaps familiar with as modern audiences kind of only became possible once we were able to feed ourselves, you know, so many particular you know, vitamins and nutrients to turn our bodies into something, whatever it is even possible or practical in an ancient world context.

A Blanshard 29:34
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s extraordinary. We live in this amazing moment, right. So there are two key key changes are the first one is the ability to isolate muscle group and train individual muscles. And that becomes possible around the turn of the 19th century with people like Sandow developing equipment for the isolation and training of individual muscle groups. The second thing as you say, is the tremendous change in diet right so you can go to the super market and you can now eat protein in a density impurity that is unparalleled. So we can do things with our bodies that we’ve never been able to do before. So we can get for Hercules Look, I mean, for me, it’s always very interesting because in the ancient world, you know, people don’t operate with that low amount of body fat, right, those Herculean bodies that we see, or indeed, even the kind of the slim tot no Greek gods style bodies that we see in gym, they would have fallen over the first famine or long winter, right, you know, unless you’ve got a decent amount of body fat, you’re not going to survive that winter, you’re not going to survive feminine. We know that every time we model the ancient economy, we have to figure in, you know, a probably one to two years every 10 years for for famine or for struggling to meet your daily calorific requirements. So, you know, those bodies wouldn’t have wouldn’t have survived a long winter, which, again, always interests me,

Dr G 30:56
yeah, it puts us in a situation where even for the ancient Greeks, their idolised body is risky, because it’s right on the edge of the limits of what might be possible in their context.

A Blanshard 31:06
Yeah, as I say, these are, these are bodies, which are actually, although they’re proclaiming health, they’re more importantly, proclaiming, well, that is, this is a body that doesn’t need to worry about where its foods coming from. This is a body that can run itself right on the edge, because it knows that actually, it’s it’s a very wealthy body for whom it’s always going to have access to resources. And so when we Look at those athletic bodies, we need to see them both as signs of kind of physicality, but also as signs of wealth, class and status.

Dr G 31:38
Yes, definitely. And thinking about the film, not just in it, sort of physicality of Hercules, but also thinking about how figures like the Olympian gods are coming into play. Certainly, there’s a sort of an extended elaboration of their physicality as well, but I’m actually potentially more interested in their characterization compared to how we understand them from Greek myth.

A Blanshard 32:05
Yes, I mean, what we see is a very reductive attitude towards the Greek gods. So the Greek gods stand for one thing and one thing only right so Aphrodite is a goddess of love, for example, but we know that in the ancient world, she was also a sea goddess, importantly, depicted always with a dolphin by her side, she is the person that you imply, prey to for safe voyages. Likewise, your Dionysus is represented there is the god of wine, but he’s also the godfather of theatre, the god of madness, has important role in the underworld as well through certain Dionysiac mysteries. So these multifaceted God that in the ancient world had all these various different dimensions to them, just effectively get reduced in the Disney Hercules to only standing for one for one thing. So you know, Poseidon is the god of the sea, but he’s not the God of horses, not the God of earthquakes, for example, and it goes on again, and again. There are some lovely jokes. I mean, there’s a wonderful joke about Narcissus, for example, he’s always looking in, in his mirror and, and that’s kind of right. I think, that’s this is really famous for being obsessed by his beauty, but but in all other respects, their depiction of the gods is very, very reductive. We see this, for example, perhaps most strikingly, in here, who you know, in this case is just becomes a sort of doting simpering mother rather than the extraordinary powerful God is in her own right, who is responsible, in fact for making her excuses life? Hell right. Now, if you go to Greek myths, it’s here that’s in fact the main cause of all his all his problems. And in fact, it’s here who’s responsible for perhaps the most tragic event in hairpieces life which of course is sending the goddess of madness Alyssa so that hurricanes goes mad and murders his wife Megara and all his children and this is the extraordinary tragic dark sequel to in fact the Heracles film because the heritage film ends with Hercules and make mega arm in arm together off to be this loving couple now if you know your Greek myth you’ll no well Look it’s looking fine now but yeah, give it a few years inherit here I should in theory be sending matters to ensure that hurricanes will be murdering poor old make and all the kids they have as well. So so this is kind of really dark kind of this that every time you see big on stage and you think, Oh, God, no, just just run from Him, you know? And there are all these kind of lovely things where Heroclix says, No, I’ll never hurt you make and you think, Oh, you are gonna hurt a big time don’t it’s, it’s it really there’s kind of dark ironies that run through the film.

Dr Rad 34:47
Yeah, I did think it was very interesting that given that hair, as you say, like from from the moment of his conception basically decides she’s going to play Hercules because of course he is. Living Proof of Zeus is on faith. fullness, the fact that he slept with this mortal woman and that kind of stuff. His name obviously even comes from from here as well. So it’s interesting that she’s not the villain that Hades is. And I think that says obviously a lot about how we understand the god of the underworld. Yeah, it must be something dark and evil something down there, whereas hair is often the light cloudy world of Olympus. But Megara has is definitely a character of fascination, partly because she’s obviously come into a lot of criticism because of her appearance. So the fact that I mean all the women but particularly Megara I think have this insane body shape, which may or may not be a Greek vase. But boy, that waist is tiny. And they have turned her into this, like, why is cracking female love interest? Which as you say, it’s such a weird choice, because yeah, if you know, your myth, she she’s going to get murdered by Hercules.

A Blanshard 35:47
Yes, and certainly, that depiction of Megara is something that that is very common, and aligns with a lot of the depictions that you’re seeing in the eyes near Disney, where there’s an attempt to have a slightly more sassy, slightly more independent kind of female figure. And, of course, you know, Hercules comes just before Pocahontas, which will be that and then of course, Mulan afterwards, which you know, so so you can sort of see a bit of a trend beginning with Megara going on to going on to Pocahontas and Mulan in Disney thinking. But you know, for all her independent agency, you know, it’s still hurricanes who saves the day. And then that is the key centre of the narrative.

Dr G 36:32
We also get this sort of complexity in the plot as well, whereas Meg comes across as being quite independent and having a strong sense of personal agency, only for that to be revealed to us in terms of the plot that she actually she’s in the grip of Hades is power.

A Blanshard 36:50
Yeah, although in her defence, you know, she did it because of her bad choice in men, right, she fell for the wrong guy and ended up you know, selling herself to Hades to save him only for him to abandon her and leave her as a slave as a slave to Hades. So, you know, for all her kind of sassy wisecracking nature. You know, ultimately, what really matters if you’re a woman is are you able to choose the right guy? That that’s what will lead to success or not, not your brains? Not your your ability? With a quick wit? Actually, it’s Can you establish a meaningful relationship with a man? That is, that is the success.

Dr G 37:32
Thanks a lot, Disney. Thanks a lot.

Dr Rad 37:35
As you ended up with the guy, he’s gonna murder her. Yeah,

A Blanshard 37:39
exactly. Well, at least you’d have to be a princess now. That’s the important thing.

Dr G 37:44
What a relief, small steps, small steps.

Dr Rad 37:47
So I’d love to very quickly talk about some of these other characters that we’ve mentioned in passing. So some of the other sort of major minor characters, the supporting cast are, of course, Hades and Phil, do you have any strong feelings about the portrayal of these people feel obviously not being based on a real God or something per se? Hadees definitely.

A Blanshard 38:08
Yeah. So I think Phil is really interesting, right? So Danny DeVito does a great job with with with the figure of Phil. He’s short for Philoctetes. So it’s playing on another figure from the Heracles cycle. So Philoctetes was famous in antiquity for having this pussy foot. That meant that he was abandoned by his companions, who sailed on the trip to Troy, left on the island of Lemnos. But importantly, Philoctetes was an associate of Heracles and had the bow of Heracles. And so eventually, they have to come back apologise for abandoning him on the island of Lemnos and he didn’t get reincorporated back into society so so that’s the story of Philoctetes is known in antiquity as a friend of Heracles the person who inherited his his dying gives the gives his bow to not his personal trainer, but not his personal trainer, and certainly not satyr either. That’s the other thing is that he has been turned into a Saturday in this in this film, but yes, yeah. And again, just a great figure you playing on a car cinematic tradition of the boxing trainer, the particularly the Jewish boxing trainer, and there’s, there’s a way in which Philippines picks up on particular trends in sort of cinematic New York Judaism and so so he’s he’s this trainer who turns hurricanes in from this kind of weakling into this wonderful buff here. Great role by Danny DeVito. And certainly a good roll by James Woods in Hades Look in played with wonderful, Suave sophistication a fantastically good line in delivery of in this kind of wonderful draw over to that he has done a good figure a complete villain very much in picking up on Judeo Christian ideas of of hell of the devil of the trickster who always always getting you to sign agreements for which you don’t see the, the secret clause in. So, again, grounded not so much in weaker in antiquity but very much in Judeo Christian views of the of the devil.

Dr G 40:14
But it does offer us this amazing kind of scene right near the end, where Hercules enters into the underworld and we get our moment of katabasis that is happening where the confrontation between Hades and Hercules happens on Hades territory, which I think I don’t know, I just really love that sort of moment. I don’t know. It’s not really I don’t know if I even have a question. Really, it was,

A Blanshard 40:40
as you say, it’s a lot as you say, it’s a lovely moment. And again, as you rightly point out, picks up on an important epic tradition, namely, the tradition of the descent to the underworld. But catappa says, you know, whether it’s Odysseus in The Odyssey, raising the dead, whether it’s a near sin in the near this idea of the descent into the underworld, and so again, very, very ancient in terms of an element within ancient narratives. The depiction, of course, is completely Judeo Christian, that the flames, the location, that it picks up on, you know, mediaeval traditions of hellscape. So there’s, it’s really that kind of Renaissance mediaeval tradition that scarf is, is working through in terms of the visual depictions, but as you say, an important element within ancient narrative traditions.

Dr Rad 41:30
And I’d love to also bring up one of my favourite elements of the movie, which is, of course, the Muses. What are your thoughts on the Muses?

A Blanshard 41:39
How have we taken so long to get to the muses that is the best bit by far and away the stars of this film, such a clever idea to have them as his kind of backup singers, they’re kind of sassy. They’re funny, it picks up on the idea of the Greek chorus. But what’s really wonderful about them is the way in which they kind of undercut so much kind of pomposity that runs through the film, if you if you remember that wonderful opening sequence, which begins with this voiceover,

Dr Rad 42:11
Charlton Heston

A Blanshard 42:16
giving this fantastic, how pompous voiceover, and then the Muses kind of step. So hang on, wait a minute, that’s not gonna be this kind of film. And then they launch straight into the jazzy number. And they are, they are clever. They’re funny, they, I think, inject a very different kind of tone to this film. They’re great. They’re absolutely great. I can’t get enough of them.

Dr G 42:41
I think they form a great counterpoint, as you say. And there’s that gospel tradition that is coming through in the way that the musical numbers operate as well, which I think is a really interesting way of tying the ancient Greek world to sort of more modern and contemporary American cultural elements for the audience.

A Blanshard 43:00
Absolutely. And that opening number of gospel truth really, you know, indicates you know, what trek kind of musical tradition they’re they’re working from. And again, it kind of is a lovely way of sort of undercutting a lot of the kind of potential whiteness that runs through the runs through the film as well. So it begins with these kind of white statues. And then suddenly, what we see is, in fact, this shot of a vase, or which the the muses are emerging, right, so So we’re getting colour in a way that we haven’t knew before. We’re getting different kinds of musical traditions emerging. This is going to be a very different kind of way of doing of doing Greek myth that is, at least within Disney World, envisaged as much more inclusive and a story that is available to all

Dr Rad 43:47
and of course, there’s one more character I have to mention. Pegasus. Pegasus, yes. Who has no place in Hercules? Not at all, not at all.

A Blanshard 43:58
But it’s kind of gorgeous. I mean, he’s he’s part flying horse but also part Labrador as well. He’s, he’s this kind of fantastic sort of companion for for for Hercules. You’re right, I mean, taken from the mythic sequence relating to Bellerophon and and kind of totally out of out of place, but but also also kind of wonderful for for the film.

Dr Rad 44:22
I didn’t have it. Now, obviously, I think we’ve hopefully told our listeners that Disney’s Hercules is actually an amazing blend of playing with epic film, Greek myth, American culture. I mean, there’s so many aspects that are come together in a Christian ideas soul in this film, but we always have to kind of finish up by thinking about well, what are we talking about when we’re talking about the historical accuracy? How important is it for film in general, animated film? I mean, what are your thoughts on trying to achieve historical accuracy in this sort of a film?

A Blanshard 44:56
Well, good luck. But I mean, first of all, you know, tried producing a film about her clothes and not having and doing it without doing the our rating. Right, you know, it’s impossible. So, you know, Look, some of the things that worry me about the film are the way in which, you know, Hercules becomes commodified into this very kind of middle class, aspirational, suburban kind of hero. And I think, you know, there’s a way in which, you know, Hercules could have been a more inclusive figure that speaks to a much wider demographic than I think, was was potential there. I mean, I think the fact that Olympia is really depicted as this kind of aspirational gated community is, I think, a problem. I think, also the fact that it fiddles around with the birth narrative in such a way that, you know, Hercules is not the product, right, but is in fact, a product of a very happy heteronormative. Couple. So again, I think the potential to to explore, you know, at least issues that were around adultery, or blended families, or even just if the issues of care, foster Hooda are really ignored in that. So I think, you know, there are, I think missed opportunities in the, in the film,

Dr Rad 46:18
I think that’s always a nice thing about Greek myth, it’s, I think it would have been acceptable to ancients that we play around with it. But as you say, it’s the impression that we give our own culture as well, that also has to be considered.

A Blanshard 46:29
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, there was tremendous, tremendous play in Greek with I mean, the classic example would be something like Euripides as Hercules right, which that as I say, the normal sequence, when we tell the story about the labours of Hercules is Hercules murders his wife and children, and then does the 12 labours to make up for it, your remedies, take turns on his head and has no Heroclix performing the 12 labours, and then murdering his wife and children. Because what he wanted was a tragedy, which had a man at his very highest point, when he thinks he’s conquered death, gone down to the underworld, brought back Cerberus, there’s nothing that can touch him, and then to be brought low, by, in fact, being caught up in the machinations of here, and the murder of his wife and children. So So even within the ancient world, it was very possible to do tremendously interventionist things with the Hercules storyline, so so that wouldn’t worry the ancient world. And I think then, given the amount of play that we have, with Hara cleaves, that then has a kind of interesting ethical obligation of ours. That is, if we’re going to play around that we need to think about, you know, what we are, what kinds of stories we tell,

Dr G 47:37
definitely, and I think this is the sort of place where it’s probably a good chance to wrap up and because I feel like we could just keep talking about this film and, and the connections to hearing please, for hours, and I know that you need to go and live your life and and I just want to thank you so much for coming and sitting down and chatting to us today.

A Blanshard 47:58
Yeah, absolutely. Great. Fun. Great fun. Always, always good to chat with you.

Dr Rad 48:03
Absolutely. So just a reminder that if you’d like to read up on some of the issues we’ve touched on today, if you’d like to delve more into the life of Hercules and the myths surrounding him, you definitely want to pick up Alastair’s book on Hercules, Hercules or heroic life. And if you’d like to learn more about film in general on screen, including Hercules and please pick up classics on screen which is a fantastic book, which has got chapters on lots of different movies, and Alastair is the co author of that.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial historians. We hope that you enjoy the episode and if you did, please consider becoming a Patreon. It is thanks to our marvellous patrons that we are able to make special episodes like this. We’d also like to once again thank Professor Alastair Blanshard the Paul Eliadis chair of classics in ancient history at the University of Queensland, for coming on the show and chatting to us all about Hercules. If you enjoyed listening to Alastair, he really does have a wide array of publications out there beyond his work on history on film, and he’s also a regular contributor to the conversation. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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We return to the 410s BCE to explore some classic Conflict of the Orders. This one will end with an evil patrician plan (mwahahaha) to divide and conquer their plebeian foes.

Episode 141 – Divide and Conquer

The Romans had been engaged in battle with the Aequians when we last checked in on them. Due to some slappy fighting between the military tribunes with consular power, a dictator had been called in to get this military campaign back on track.

Quintus Servilius was chosen for their role, and he took his son along for the ride. Fortunately for this father-son duo, the Aequians were getting sloppy. Servilius took full advantage of their overconfidence and whipped the Romans into shape. He even ordered the death of a slightly hesitant standard-bearer! With the stern Servilius Snr in charge, the Romans manage to turn the tables on their enemies.

Roman standards were considered to be sacred by the legions. It is most unusual that the dictator ordered the death of a standard-bearer on the spot! Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.

Thanks to the defeat of the Labicani and the Aequians, the Romans finally have some new territory on their hands. Terrified that the tribunes of the plebs might try to redistribute the land, the Senate quickly established a colony in the new area.

The senators were probably right to be afraid, as two tribunes decided to put forward a new agrarian law. Land taken from the enemies of Rome should be split up and divvied up between the citizens. Cue some more Conflict of the Orders!

The patricians were alarmed by this outrageous proposal. The descendent of uber—patrician royalty, Appius Claudius, was there to steer the patricians down a nefarious path. It was time to take the tribunes of the plebs on; to divide and conquer…    

Lucius Papirius L. f. -. n. Mugillanus (Pat). Previously consul in 427 and military tribune with consular power 422.

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects are courtesy of BBC Beta.

Courtesy of Otter AI.

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:30
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:59
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:08
And I’m very excited Dr. Racks are trying out a new setup.

Dr G 1:12
This may or may not succeed,

Dr Rad 1:15
it’s gonna be the most interesting episode audio logically,

Dr G 1:20
we want to say a huge shout out thank you to our patrons, because it is through their support that we were able to invest in some new equipment, and everybody’s gonna hear the results for better or worse.

Dr Rad 1:34
We are audio geniuses, of course, it’s going to work out it’s going to be amazing. Just your way. Yes. Now strategy, we are tracing the journey of hearing from the founding of the city. And I owe you and all of our listeners a big apology. Oh, did you break the history of Rome from the value of the city somehow I may just have. So last episode, I left you all on a cliffhanger, our dictator of 418 BC about to march out into battle. And I said I was finishing there because I thought we were heading into a new year. Turns out I was wrong. Oh no, I got confused. Because you see 417 and 416 are blended together. But 418 is in fact quite distinct.

Dr G 2:18
I have terrible news for you. You’re gonna have to hand back in your PhD.

Dr Rad 2:23
I’ll just be rad.

I hate it. I’m sorry. All right. So when we do the recap, therefore this episode, I am going to not only recap what happened last time, but also add some more information. Oh, excellent. All right. Well, let’s get into where were we up to in this narrative anyway?

Well, so I believe we were up to 418 BCE last episode, and we ended up with some military Tribune’s with consular power who could not get along to save themselves.

Tragedy. Yeah, Look, you know, arguments abound, poor strategic decisions were made. It wasn’t great. And there was a man who was the father of one of these gentleman Quintus Servilius.

Sounds like I’m making fun of him whenever I use that V. But

Dr G 3:12
I mean, that’s his name.

Dr Rad 3:15
I know, it just sounds funny. Like what does Servilius

Dr G 3:18
Is he asking for ridicule? perhaps, especially if I add on Quintus Servilius, Priscus Fidenas.

Dr Rad 3:26
So this guy had seen that there was going to be travelled because he it’s actually only been what like maybe six or seven years, maybe eight Max, since we last had an issue where the commanders were arguing, and it led to military disaster for room. So he sees the writing on the wall, allegedly. And he basically makes sure that he and his son are going to be there and prepared to kind of step in and handle the situation, which he thinks is going to arise which is military disaster for the Romans.

Dr G 4:00
This is a typical elitist plan. Not only is he going to get himself into power, he’s going to bring his son along with him, and it’s all going to be great. It does seem suspicious that he and his son are the ones that you know, come in to do the whole here we come to save the day thing.

Dr Rad 4:16
I mean, yeah, I have some concerns. But you know, for 18 being what it is chaotic, fine, fine. Yes, exactly. So, essentially, the way that they did this is they made sure that not every available man had been sent out to face the Romans enemies who I should add the Aequians and the people of Labici.

Dr G 4:39
The Labicani, Yes, who re entered the narrative as one of the sort of like surrounding neighbours, who was a little bit upset with Rome for the way that Rome has treated them over and over again. And I think from what you said last time, they’ve been nursing this garage for almost 100 years now, pretty much as soon as the Republic is started. They’ve been upset.

Dr Rad 5:02
Oh No.

Yeah, exactly. So in 418 BC last episode, we finished up with the dictator Quintus Servilius and his master of the horse, which is his son, therefore, another Servilius marching out together to face the enemy with fresh troops after things predictably not going so well for the Romans. Yeah, yes, coming in to save the day. Exactly. Now, I did hint that the Aequians were in for some trouble at the end of last episode because they had been doing so well against the Romans because you know, the Romans are just too busy fighting too will fight each other I should say then to fightthat they also started to get sloppy.

the results of this was seen immediately. Dr. G. In the very first battle, you can see that the Aequians and their allies, the people of the Labicani are off their game,

Dr G 6:00
A little bit of a mess, a hot mess waiting to happen in the Castelli Romani region.

Dr Rad 6:05
Yeah, so the dictator Quintus Sebelius, he goes into battle leading hard with the cavalry, and the cavalry caused the entire front line of the Aequians to be disrupted. They’re in chaos, Dr. G.

Speaker 2 6:20
Well, a dictator shows up and everybody runs for the hills, basically. Now this guy is super hardcore, because wait till I add this detail. So once they’ve sent the frontlines of the Aequians and the leper colony into chaos, he orders that the Romans sort of quick march and just advance quickly, I guess the idea being sort of overwhelmed them as fast as possible. And apparently one of the standard bearers kind of like hesitates. Now, I don’t know if this means he’s like, Wait, left, right? Where are we going? I don’t know what hesitation he’s giving like, did he cry..?

Dr Rad 6:52
Can we stop for for gelato? Guys, because I really need a break right now. Yeah, I don’t know what the hesitation was. But whatever it was Servilius dictator does not take it kindly, and he has him killed on the spot.

Dr G 7:04
I would have thought that would be a bad omen. The standard bearer is a very important person. They’re looking after the standard.

Dr Rad 7:11
I know, it seems so weird, but he was like he’s getting cut down on the spot.

Dr G 7:16
I feel like the Romans who had viewed that would be shocked and traumatised.

Dr Rad 7:21
Well, apparently they’re very excited. Dr. G. That’s what they are very excited.

Dr G 7:25
These people will never cease to amaze me with their horrors.

Dr Rad 7:28
They’re just like, You know what, we’re just gonna give it our all. And so the Aequians and the leper colony quickly overwhelmed, they lose the battle, they flee the battlefield, they run back to their camp. Oh, how the tables have turned.

Dr G 7:41
So you’re telling me that in the time of you’ve got to like get the troops roused up somehow that the best way to do that is to kill one of their own?

Dr Rad 7:48
Well, I don’t know if they’re excited because of the standard bearer staff. They’re just excited because it seems that they’re doing well, I think. Yeah, and I think they apparently invigorated by the energy of Quintus Servilius which is Stern.

Dr G 8:03
So invigorating, exactly.

Dr Rad 8:06
Silverfox Yeah, so wiliest, sir. Yes, sir. Yeah, so the Romans are able to quite easily also capture the camp of the enemy. And of course, within the camp, there are many spoils she had

Dr G 8:19
Oh, booty,

Dr Rad 8:20
It is bootay time.

Dr G 8:23
I wonder where that leather armour went?

Dr Rad 8:25
Yes. As we’ve often pointed out, because they are fighting the same people and over again, we really feel like their possessions are just in rotation.

Dr G 8:32
It is tough out there. It takes a long time to make a full suit of armour. Yeah, of course, you want to steal it back.

Dr Rad 8:37
So Servilius, I guess to show his gratitude says that the soldiers may have the booty

Dr G 8:43
very generous.

Dr Rad 8:44
I know, I know. Now the Roman cavalry. Meanwhile, they are hard at work. They are chasing the Aequians with the remaining ones, I suppose as they run away from the camp. They’ve just been running all day or stuff out there. I mean, they’re in a hilly region. It’s not like this is an easy run. I know. And they come back and inform our dictator Servilius that the remaining Aequians and the Labicani who’ve managed to survive the slaughter up until this moment are all hiding in Labici.

Dr G 9:15
Yeah, fair enough. I mean, that’s where I would hide as well with Rome’s known enemy, who was also involved in the battle, but currently not being chased. Best place to hide

Dr Rad 9:23
so the Romans march off to Labici The next day, have a good rest beforehand. They quickly encircled us letters to get over the walls and completely ravaged this city. Oh, yeah. It’s all in a very.

Dr G 9:39
I didn’t even have a reaction to that. I’m just like, really? That’s it?

Dr Rad 9:43
Because Livy’s very precise in his details here. So Servilius marches back to room with his triumphant army and once he gets there, he hands back his powers and he had been dictator live. He tells me for a total of eight

Dr G 9:55
days. Wow, this is an exceptionally false cat. In pain I know, right? I mean, it would take at least until lunch on the first date of March there.

Dr Rad 10:05
Yeah. So it’s considering that it’s built up as being obviously, you know, a potential disaster for Rome, typically a bit suspiciously. The Romans bounce back very quickly and very easily.

Dr G 10:15
This is their way they love a good bounce back is it’s

Dr Rad 10:18
just the way that the history has been written.

Dr G 10:24
I cannot possibly comment at this time.

Dr Rad 10:27
I demand answers. Now, obviously, we actually finally have a bit of expansion on our hand strategy,

Dr G 10:35
do we we do Oh, my goodness. And still in 418? Yeah,

Dr Rad 10:39
yeah. This is Oh, 418. Oh, yeah. So the Senate concerned because we now have the city of Labici in our evil imperialist clause. But there are concerns because you know, who else would like to have Labici?

Dr G 10:56
Is it the Aequians? No. I mean, the people who used to live there are lots

Dr Rad 11:02
of people that would like to have it. But I mean, within Rome. Oh, nice. Like to

Dr G 11:07
have people who would most like to have it in a row? Yeah. The military traders who control the power,

Dr Rad 11:12
kind of, but the people that the Senate are most concerned about are, of course, the tribune of the plebs and the people themselves. Wow, that makes sense. Yeah, they’re very concerned that they’re going to start buying off all this new land that’s coming in from the Labican territory, so they very quickly hold a meeting and determined that they will establish a colony

Dr G 11:34
there. So land distribution is not on the table. Well,

Dr Rad 11:38
I think that’s what they foresee. And they’re like, No,

Dr G 11:42
that’s not on my what

Dr Rad 11:44
No. So 1500 colonists are sent from Rome to this new colony. And they are apparently given five eighthsWe of an acre.

Dr G 11:54
Well, that’s pretty good. That’s more than people get today.

Dr Rad 11:57
Well apparently, my commentator thinks that the amount that is specified in Livy, would not be enough for a family to survive on and therefore, it’s not really correct that he thinks they would have been given a lot more.

Dr G 12:12
Yeah, it is problematic. It might be enough for one person to grow some things but I don’t know if it’s enough for self sufficiency for a family.

Dr Rad 12:21
Yes, my commentator thinks that this amount that Livy’s specifies must be more in reference to where his household gods would reside. Like this is the area in which his household essentially is being established.

Dr G 12:37
Ah, as in the building itself. Yeah,

Dr Rad 12:39
I guess so. Yeah. And this is like his little sacred land sort of thing of his of his skins. interesting theories. And that is actually where for 18 Should Have Ended?

Dr G 12:53
Well, under those circumstances, I’m willing to give Rome one more gold eagle for their expansion.

Dr Rad 13:00
Exactly. I mean, they’re still gonna get it, they’re just gonna get it a bit later. But that takes us into 417 BCE for me, Dr. G. Would you like to tell us who the magistrates are and I should say, I think we probably should go through 417 and 416 together because in my account, they are treated as really one in the same

Dr G 13:22
foreshadowing.

Dr Rad 13:32
Hey, listeners, do you enjoy awkward family dynamics, relationships between mortals and gods? Then you will love our book Rex: The seven kings of Rome. Rex is newly available in an ebook in the Amazon Kindle store and also on Gumroad however, if you’re keen to get your hands on a printed copy, we still have a few left, and they are now being sold through Abby’s bookstore in Sydney. And thanks so much to all those who’ve already bought a copy we really appreciate your support. And now back to the episode

Dr G 14:20
is 417 bc we have military tributes with concealer power. So first cab off the rank Publius Lucretius Hosti Tricipitinus I do not like this name. He has returned and I still don’t like it.

Dr Rad 14:42
Ironically, Tricipitinus does not trip off the tongue.

Dr G 14:46
No, no, indeed. Previously military Tribune with consular power in 419. So very recent that we’ve had this sort of horror of pronounciation upon us He is joined by Agrippa Menenius Lanatus, also previously console in 439. And also previously military Tribune with Triciptinus that old chestnut in 419. So these two it’s like being reunited for our whole new adventure.

Dr Rad 15:17
It is interesting that he had a gap of 20 years seemingly between holding magistracies Until Tricipitinus. Is is on the scene a year

Dr G 15:27
raising suspicions about Roman naming conventions. It might be fair enough. And we also have Gaius or potentially Lucius Servilius Axilla, or Structus. This guy we don’t know. I mean, he’s all over the shop name wise. But the good news is that he’s on year three of his hat trick of military tribune with consular power. Not that he got to do much the previous year because he kind of got swept up in the whole being master of the horse instead business. Yeah, so this is the son of our dictator. This is the son of our dictator. So he was the one who was hanging around as the master of the horse in Rome. Last year. Yeah. For 18. Yes. The name confusion continues on Sky is a tricky one. Yeah, there is also Spurius Rutilius Crassus. I know offer this with massive question ma indeed, because it seems more likely that the fourth guy is not a Rutilius Crassus but is a Spurius Veturius Crassus Cicurinus. I mean, I don’t know. But the problem with it being a Rutilius Crassus is that this is very much a plebeian name.

Yes. And we’re not there yet, as we’ve established. Many and many

scholars don’t agree on many things. But one of the things that they tend to agree on is that this is way too early for them to actually be a plebeian in this role.

Dr Rad 17:03
Unless, of course, it’s all crap. And the Roman state isn’t established the waiver and said it is and for the ins and patricians? Do they exist at this point in time? It is I’ll have

Dr G 17:12
more to say on that topic later. So the trouble with the rebellious thing is that there’s no routinely i in the fastI, as we are aware of it, yeah, for another 250 years. Yeah. And

Dr Rad 17:27
with Roman naming conventions, it feels really unlikely that you would just have one random guy from a family pop up, and then no one in the family pop up again.

Dr G 17:38
This is something that you build over time, and family reputation gets sort of baked in. And so you’re expecting a slow progression of people to come into positions and then to be followed through by their relatives. And that’s not what we see. In this case. We don’t get a routine AI for ages. The praenomen Spurius doesn’t go with this gens historically, from the examples that we do have, neither does the cognomen Crassus.

Dr Rad 18:00
Yes, exactly.

Dr G 18:01
So it’s all just kind of speculation and wildness and probably not a plebeian sad news, because we’re Pro Plebeian on this podcast. It’s pretty clear. Yeah. And that is not what we’re getting in 417 BCE.

Dr Rad 18:15
So should we do 416? Or do you have enough information to separate those years out?

Dr G 18:22
Don’t be like that. What I can tell you is in terms of my source material, yeah, is that I have a little excerpt from the Fasti Capitolini Which basically proves that Lucretius Hosti is somebody that we should care about. Likewise, Agrippa Menenius and otherwise everybody else is up for grabs. And that Diodorus Siculus appears to be more on top of the names than Livy

Defeat I don’t know people better the place than me seem to think that or Siculus got the information right

Dr Rad 19:04
this time. Fair enough. Fair enough. Look, it’s not like Livy hasn’t made a mistake with names before All right, well, shall we get it through for 16 then because as I say, this is a very blended together for me.

Dr G 19:17
Okay, so you’ve got some blending I’ve got a whole bunch of different names for 416

Dr Rad 19:21
No, no, I do like that. They are separate but I mean, the actions all blended together All right. Yeah.

Dr G 19:27
Okay, well, I feel sorry for the aforementioned players of 417

Dr Rad 19:32
out they’re gonna come into it maybe the Chinese are a bit

Dr G 19:34
bit players at best. So our people for 416 We’ve got military tributes for cultural power again, yeah, Aulus Sempronius Atratinus

A name we know well by now.

Yeah. Previously consul in 428. Not a named consul, but one of the sort of suffect consul and also a military Tribune in 425 and 420. Oh, My other note is that despite his appearance in many years, he doesn’t appear to have distinguished himself in any particular way.

Dr Rad 20:06
Well, this is the guy I think, who was accused of holding fake elections and it led to his relative being prosecuted.

Wow. And yet he’s back. Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s him. His reputation has recovered. Well, yeah, cuz I mean, it’s just attributing to accused him of it and nobody pays attention to the interview. Oh, that’s right.

Dr G 20:25
I listened to those guys that crazy. Yeah. And Marcus Papirius Mugillanus. Yes. Again, very familiar. Yes, very recently. Was military Tribune in 418. Yep. Quintus Fabius Vibulanus. Again, I’ve heard that name before console in 423. So you know, we’re all coming about in the same sort of air. Yes. Spurius Nautius Rutilus. US military Tribune in 419.

Dr Rad 20:52
Noticing a bit of a bit of a trend Yeah. And

Dr G 20:56
some return of some players. Everybody sort of had a bit of a role before. Is this a sign of trouble afoot for row on the military front where they’re like, You know what, we don’t just need commanders we need experienced commanders might say something about that. Don’t give the narrative away just yet. We also have two named tribune of the plebs. Yeah, as I understand it, Sextus Maecilius. And somebody who might be Marcus Metilius.

Dr Rad 21:27
Alright, so let me explain why, at least in my narrative, this all blends together a lot.

Dr G 21:34
All right. I’m looking forward to the tail. Well, yeah.

Dr Rad 21:36
I guess as as Livy’s specifically notes that we do have a lot of repeat players this time around in both for 17. And for 16. And basically room is actually in quite a peaceful period externally. Allegedly, I’m a little bit suspicious because there are so many military Tribune’s is constantly power. But also, I mean, it hasn’t been very peaceful recently. This is true. Maybe it’s just a precautionary measure, but not so peaceful. internally. Dr. G. Once again, agrarian issues come to the fore.

Dr G 22:10
Yeah, well, they didn’t give me enough land this. I mean, how am I supposed to live?

Dr Rad 22:15
Yeah, well, not the not those issues. You might expect it will be the colonists, but it’s not.

Dr G 22:19
It’s not coming from the new colonists of the Labicani? Okay, yeah.

Dr Rad 22:24
So if the tribunes have got sort of causing problems, okay, our friend Maecilius, who apparently is serving for the fourth time as Tribune, and Metilius, who is apparently serving for the third time

Dr G 22:38
Oh, so we have some very experienced plebeians in the rows.

Dr Rad 22:42
Well, again, now, this is not to say that they didn’t serve, but we haven’t had any record of who’s going

Dr G 22:50
to be like that. Obviously, they’re preparing for the fourth and third time,

Dr Rad 22:53
we’re just gonna have to take Livy’s word for it that they have served previously. So these two Tribune’s decided that they’re going to put forward a law where land taken from the enemies of Rome should be split up and apostle given to each Roman citizen. So effectively, what they’re doing is to take away the riches of the very wealthy. And the idea is that most of the really noble Gavin’s in Rome would be hit and hit hard if they manage to pass this law. Now, there are a lot of red flags here, in case you’re wondering. So the only new territory we’ve really mentioned of late is of course, Labici. Right. So you might be thinking that they’re referring to that land specifically, but it doesn’t seem like they are it kind of seems like maybe they mean, land in general. That room has been founded on territory that’s been gradually one and pieced together. That’s That’s why they’d be hitting the families really hard.

Dr G 24:04
Okay, that sort of inch by inch, clawing it back from the list guns or something.

Dr Rad 24:10
Yeah. And it’s also kind of insinuating that obviously, the idea is that land that is one in battle becomes part of the public land, and that the patricians are somehow monopolising that, or have monopolised that in the past and pavilions aren’t just getting a Look in at all. But as we’ve talked about before, this isn’t a rich versus poor divide. We do have wealthy plebeians. And so this kind of asks us to believe that the only way wealthy plebeians have acquired land is by buying it somehow when it comes up for sale. It just it just raises a lot of questions about how exactly this is working. Do they just mean the new colony? are they referring more broadly to other things? It’s a bit up in question. But certainly the tribunes feel that this is fair because they think hardly any land within room or outside of it has not been won by fighting. And yet the patricians hold most of the land. And so obviously, this is the ill feeling that they’re tapping into.

Dr G 25:17
Yeah. And that seems appropriate. And it’s trying to think about how would an ancient economy navigate things like this? So like, how is wealth characterised? And how do you come into the acquisition of land? And how do you retain it? Because it’s not like you necessarily have like a piece of paper? We have, we’re thinking about the foundation of the city itself. You’ve got stones that mark out areas? Yeah, you know, so if a family goes out and sticks some stone somewhere overnight, who knows? Like, does that make it legal? How does it operate in a practical sense? And if are you capable of only possessing the things that you can fight for and then win? Yeah. Because then your gains become super important to your land holdings, because part of the function of again, is to come together as a war band, and to protect property ownership. Yes. So the bigger the gains, the more powerful the more potential. So it might not necessarily be about wealth acquisition, outside in an economical sense, because that might not be the sort of power you need to be able to take land and then retain it.

Dr Rad 26:26
Well, and this is exactly I think, this kind of story. I mean, Look, I should perhaps say that people are very dubious about whether this ever happened because it is just such a classic conflicts between the patricians and plebeians, you know, the squaring off against each other. People are very dubious about whether this actually happened, particularly because we’re the character of Metilius. There’s been questions raised about whether that name was injected potentially by one Dionysius of Halicarnassus because his patrons were Metiliii…

Dr G 27:00
Well, Well, Well, trash talk.

Dr Rad 27:05
Exactly. But there have been questions raised certainly about the veracity of these events. However, I think if we do Look at this story, it would again suggest that Rome is far more disorganised tribal and warlord ish, which is totally legitimate academic word, then it is being

Dr G 27:26
described in our literary material from hundreds of years later.

Dr Rad 27:29
Exactly, exactly. But Livy and Dionysius are making it seem like there’s a really organised state with a very clear career progression and

Dr G 27:39
yeah, and highly D alienated class system already in

Dr Rad 27:42
play. Yeah. Which seems unlikely. If you Look at this sort of story.

Dr G 27:46
Well, there’s no reason why you wouldn’t have a hierarchical system of some kind happening. So how does it unfold in practical terms, and is what the sources telling us the most likely implausible explanation for what was happening in the past based on other things that we might be able to find out. And this is the part of the trouble that we have generally with this period is that we have so little extant material from other sources to be able to sort of CO opt into something that might be a narrative. We’ve got archaeological remains, and we’ve got a little bit of epigraphy. And we’ve got this and that, and they’re, they’re there. But they’re not necessarily providing that wholesale sort of sweeping narrative that our riders later on are able to produce and then go on to survive. So we’re a little bit hampered by what we have access to.

Dr Rad 28:38
Exactly. So if I am going to proceed with this story, let’s obviously pretend that we believe everything Livy’s saying,

Dr G 28:46
I’m so excited for when I’m gonna let you tell your story. And then I’m gonna maybe I’ll do is I’ll do some things.

Dr Rad 28:52
All right, so the military tribune’s with consular power had been consulting with the Senate. So obviously a bit more of an official public kind of consultation that’s going on, but they also are having little private teetotalers with the leading men. So I would read the men with the most doctorates as potentially the most wealth, and certainly substantial political and military experience behind them. And in this narrative, definitely patricians and they’re trying to come up with an evil plan to defeat the tribune of the plebs. Now live he doesn’t explicitly say at this point, so the story goes, which makes it sound incredibly like hearsay that’s this is where one Appius Claudius enters our narrative. Oh, no,

Dr G 29:45
no, no, I’m still I’m still dealing with my trauma for the last FAS Clodius they caught me back No.

Dr Rad 29:53
So Appius Claudius. Now dear listeners room and naming conventions strike again. This is not the The Appius Claudius of infamy, but the grandson of the decimvir, who you may be recalling the one that had organised the potential abduction with the idea of obviously making her sexually subservient to him of Virginia, the plebeian maid.

Dr G 30:19
Yes. what a what a man who could forget

Dr Rad 30:22
now this Appius Claudius is the youngest man in the Senate. Cute. Yeah. No.

Dr G 30:28
How old is he

Dr Rad 30:29
doesn’t say, I mean, it could be 30. I mean, even 40. Really?

Dr G 30:35
I was gonna say, the Spry 42. Exactly,

Dr Rad 30:39
exactly. Now, he decides that he’s going to put forward an old idea from way back in the day from his family. Oh, yeah. You know, it’s gonna be awful. So this comes from not the desam there, but an even even Appius. Claudius. Yes. Now, there are some disputes about exactly how great this grandfather is. Is it his great grandfather or his great, great grandfather? But either way, his name is still Appius Claudius.

Dr G 31:09
It doesn’t matter how far back you go. It’s Appius Claudius all the way down.

Dr Rad 31:13
We think that this particular Appius Claudius would have been his great grandfather who was consul in 471 That he’s throwing back to him. Yeah, the the good old days. Yeah. So Appius Claudius reminds his fellow senators that a good way to destroy the power of the Tribune’s of the plebs, is by harnessing the veto power of other Tribune’s of the plebs, in other words, turning them against each other divide and conquer my friend, exactly. I do remember talking about this. He says, It’s not that hard. Because elite men in Rome just have to choose someone who’s not as experienced not as established amongst the tribunes and use their influence to turn them against their colleagues and use them for their own advantage. Because the whole idea, of course, is that there’s obviously more than just these two Tribune’s who are serving at this point in time. These attributes, however, are getting all the notoriety they’re sucking all the air out of the room, Dr. G, by causing issues and trying to win popularity with the people. What about those that are left behind in the background? Dr. G, what about the wallflower Tribune’s? What about them?

Dr G 32:27
What about the quiet Romans? Exactly.

Dr Rad 32:30
So instead, one way that they could advance their career path is by getting on the good side of the whole Senate by really helping them out doing a solid, you know, by turning on their tribute and colleagues, and particularly in it for them favour favour. Especially currying favour with the leading senators. Well, well, well yeah. Now the Senate is really like this flat because

Dr G 33:02
that’s the kind of plan where they get to do exactly what they like and maybe they have to throw a nice dinner party later and and fight this guy that they don’t even care about once.

Dr Rad 33:11
Exactly. And so it is on like Donkey Kong, they Cana then listed. All the senators are also very impressed with Appius. Claudius, especially.

Dr G 33:24
It’s kind of hilarious. Be like, why did we think of that? Like, dude, you’d have thought of that?

Dr Rad 33:29
Especially Quintus Servilius Priscus, our dictator from the previous year who’s clearly an Uber for attrition, so he says to Appius Claudius, you’re living up to the Guardian name your young whippersnapper pipit carry on.

Dr G 33:45
I love it carry on the great tradition of your forebears.

Dr Rad 33:49
Yes. And so all members of the Senate are given a mission possible. We’re going to talk to a tribune of the plebs and try and get them to use their veto. So three promising favours personal gratitude, as well as also I think, a bit of a mixture of, you know, threats, they managed to win over six of the tribunes of the plebs today aside, wow.

Dr G 34:14
And we’ve only got two names.

Dr Rad 34:16
I know. Me as traitors. Yeah. They change to the dustbin.

Dr G 34:23
Gordon reason day, you’d be a class trader.

Dr Rad 34:26
Exactly. So the following day, the Senate set the plan into motion. So let’s start by discussing the issues raised by my Caelius Antonius. The leading senators then get up and make speeches about what they have proposed, all very, as we would expect, they then beseech the tribunes to protect the Republic, don’t stand against this law, put forward by their colleagues.

Dr G 34:50
She’s in danger. Somebody’s got to Look after

Dr Rad 34:53
Yes, they will. Like Tribune’s can do more than just create problems between the patricians and plebeians. If you can stop your colleagues from harming

Dr G 35:04
the state, yeah, you can solve problems.

Dr Rad 35:07
Yeah. And so all the senators call on the tribunes to come to their aid and as dire out of need. And the tribunes, who had been won over now spoke up and said they were only too happy to use their veto against this proposal. And the Senate version. Thanks. Wow. Yeah,

Dr G 35:26
I’m very disappointed. I know. But we get so close to land reform, and then it just snatched away in an instant. Yeah,

Dr Rad 35:33
Maecilius and Metilius can’t really do much anymore. Apart from summit and assembly.Call all these tribunes that agreed with the Senate turncoats and class traitors and lots of other nasty names. They rant and rave and then they grumpily agreed to put an end to their proposal. Wow. And that is when 417. And 416.

Dr G 35:55
It’s a bit of a mess, isn’t it?

Dr Rad 35:57
It is Look, I mean, number one, it suggests that there isn’t necessarily just like this clear classifier that you are patrician, or you’re playing. As we’ve talked about before, it would be highly possible if we accept that these two different classes exist that wealthy affiliates actually have more in common with patricians than they do perhaps, you know, people who are like really low down in terms of their socio economic status. However, it does also suggest to me that potentially, maybe some of the problems are being blamed on the plebeians. Possibly, I mean, I have no basis for this, apart from the fact that I think Louis is very pretty patrician.

Dr G 36:38
Yeah. So like, how does Roman politics work? And like, what are the sort of like class politics, not just class politics, but you know, how does the society function through the decisions that are has to make as a collective like part of the point of having something like Rome, which is functioning like a city state at this point? How does it navigate the requirements that are coming up from its citizen body? And part of that might have to be an acknowledgement that we’re dealing with the cream of the crop here? Yeah, almost at all times. We very rarely actually get to see people, or and we certainly don’t get the perspectives of people who are living their daily lives in the struggle, and tend to be then co opted and levied into the army, yeah, for some sort of military action, and then returned home or not, depending on what happens. Yeah, otherwise, we’re dealing with what seems to be this sort of finicky interest group of people jostling at the very top, who wants something a little bit more than they’ve already got, and can’t quite agree on how they’re going to make it work. And the people who have things already, obviously, have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and the people who are on the edge of that are looking in and being like, I’m so close to having that they don’t want to take down the system necessarily. They want to be firmly embedded in the system at the very top.

Dr Rad 38:01
Exactly. And that’s also I think, feeds into this idea. I feel like we see more corruption on the side of the plebeians, and we do to patricians, it’s not that you don’t ever see, like class traitors on either side, you do, we’ve talked about them before the patrician ones tend to get killed.

Dr G 38:17
There’s been some great instances of prescriptions that have sort of elevated plebeian causes or taking the side of the tribunes at certain points in time. But the way that our source material is navigating that is to suggest that maybe that was problematic at best.

Dr Rad 38:32
Yeah. And I just feel like that’s plebeians come off. In a worse light more often, particularly the tribune of the plebs, they’re either causing issues causing problems, or they’re betraying each other to get ahead, but it just doesn’t come up. Something about it just makes me suspicious and makes me think, Hmm, what are you about young Livy?

Dr G 38:54
I think it’s worth being suspicious. I mean, Livy is writing under Augustus, essentially. And this means that his perspective on Rome is a very different world from the world that he’s writing about in this period of his history, too. So there is that fact, first and foremost, but so the political context is very different. But also, who is his intended audience? Is it other Romans, and then again, which other Romans, he’s writing in Latin, he’s writing for somebody. So those sorts of questions start to raise themselves as well. And we’re dealing with this period where, from our perspective, now, we’ve got very little to counteract a narrative presented to us like the one that Livy’s offers.

Dr Rad 39:37
Well, it’s so bizarre to me, because of course, by his own time, being patrician or being plebeian, it barely matters anymore. Like it does matter for a few things. But it’s certainly not a barrier to success. You know, if you’re if you’re from the plebeian classes, you can indeed be very wealthy and be involved in politics. So it’s weird to me sometimes I suppose when we see these sorts of things, but as we talk about that when we see the blending of patrician and pavilions gradually over time, it’s still just the elite. It’s just the elite that are at the top there, and therefore, who he’s writing for is the elite. And even though, you know, fortunes rise and fall for families, and that’s one thing over time, but we do often have similar families, I think, who are going to be at the top for substantial periods of time, I think

Dr G 40:23
in if we’re thinking about Livy, and what’s going on with patricians and plebeians, my flesh rabbits, yes. And we certainly see that some people do change from one to the others might distinctly and there’s various ways to do that. And I think that tells us that gives us some indication of the nature of what we might think of today as class. And I’m using this as an analogy. It’s not, it’s not something that you could base or hinge everything on. But in the way in which a class society and I thinking of the English in particular, because I think they form a great example, Australians like to think they don’t have class. And that is problematic in itself. But the English definitely recognised class as a category. And if you’re born into an upper middle class family, that’s very different from being the lowest here of the aristocracy. And everybody knows it. And it almost doesn’t matter how much you achieve in your life. It’s very different, very difficult to shift from upper middle class into the aristocracy. You know, there was a huge barrier there. Yeah. So I think this is one of those things where the Romans might be in that kind of situation where it’s like, everybody knows precisely where you sit. Yeah. And it’s very difficult to move. Very rare cases of it happening. Yeah. And it does have, it probably has an effect on the way you think about yourself as a Roman, what kind of Roman i So I wonder, but I said I was going to break some stuff.

Dr Rad 41:49
I was gonna say I’m waiting for your electrifying details. So to GE,

Dr G 41:52
well, in the absence of my source material, I went to the secondary scholarship.

Dr Rad 41:56
ood

Dr G 41:58
tell me Well, so I was like, you know, let’s find out some more about what’s happening in this period. If we can get what your school is reckon might be happening. I mean, we’re all dealing with very sort of small amounts of information. How do we do anything? Yeah. And I started reading Holloway’s article from 2008. Who were the tribuni militum consulare potestate? Who were they? Who were the military tribunes with consular power? Yeah. And his position or their position, I should say, because I don’t know the gender of their position seems to be that. What if the fastI and the list that we have for magistrates were really retrogene actually made up? Once people started writing down history?

Dr Rad 42:47
This is very much in keeping with what we’ve just.

Dr G 42:51
Yeah, so what if it is the case that you know, people in like the first century BC decided to write some mysteries and the like, is going to be great. They’re like, where do I start? And like, there are no records. There were literally direct

Dr Rad 43:03
material guys. Yeah, that’s really tough.

Dr G 43:05
How do I write this? You know? And what they then do, is they do what we we’ve talked about this before they go to family archives, yeah. Walk into people’s houses, and people have their family trees on display, essentially with the Margot’s?

Dr Rad 43:20
Absolutely, I mean, that that would definitely be a source that would exist because the Romans are super into their families,

Dr G 43:25
super into their families. And so the masks of their deceased ancestors are all displayed on the wall and you know, presumably in some sort of order, which gives you a sense of their illustriousness, or their antiquity, etc, etc. Yes, but obviously, that’s one element of it. He then also talks about how Cicero warns everybody against believing family archives, were like, you know, people make up some stuff for that, you know?

Dr Rad 43:50
Well, yes. But Cicero was also fairly new. He

Dr G 43:54
was a novice. Homer really is true. Yeah. Didn’t have an ancestor to his name. So Cicero is, you know, sort of like, be careful, because people exaggerate their achievements, which I think fair, cool. Yeah. They also might falsely tell people about magistracies that they’ve held that they’ve never

Dr Rad 44:10
held, because he’s going to be added yet.

Dr G 44:12
Coombe lenient? Yeah. And Spurius genealogies, like where did your family come from? That’s like, Oh, come on. I’m a routine alias. Obviously.

Dr Rad 44:23
This again, is giving me such America, you know, 19th century. It’s like, Where does your family come from? Really?

Dr G 44:31
Really? Yeah, like you can just make stuff up. It’s not very far back in my own family’s history where people were making stuff up. I know about that. But I don’t know. Don’t go checking everybody.

Dr Rad 44:45
And jump to Ge Ge was a GE

Dr G 44:48
Search carefully. As single letter, what can you discover? We also have this idea that perhaps we’ve got the fastI but Holloway is kind of like maybe we don’t have the facts. St may be the first to our creation once people start writing that narrative history, and they need to fill in the blanks. And they’re consulting these family archives, and there are too many names. And too many people hold too many positions, right? You know, so then they get into this situation be like, Well, how do I resolve this? I got a lot of names now. And it’s like, there’s only supposed to be two people per Yeah. And now I’ve got like, six people, you know, I’ve got like, you know, 200 names, and I need to like figure out the next 25 years, like, how am I going to do that? So they

Dr Rad 45:29
invented a position?

Dr G 45:33
I don’t necessarily what is say that they did. But I think we have to put it out there as a reasonable potential. Because if people are not necessarily counting things out specifically themselves within their family genealogies, they’re just kind of like I have an illustrious ancestor, and they will console three times. And that’s a story that’s handed down in your family. Yeah. So one of the stories that’s handed down in my family is that we’re related to Samuel Johnson. Oh, no. Which is a great story, but not true.

Dr Rad 46:02
Interesting. Well, I’m related to King Henry the sixth, which is true, because it’s not a brag. Terrible.

Dr G 46:11
Wow. How do you get back that far? Look at you. I didn’t know I was doing a podcast with royalty.

Dr Rad 46:17
Are you kidding? It was clearly obvious from day one.

Dr G 46:21
I should have picked it. Damn it.

Dr Rad 46:25
I mean, this is the thing. This is just what I’ve been told, I actually have no idea whether it’s true or not. I’m trusting the genealogical research of my relatives, which may very well be flawed.

Dr G 46:35
Interesting. Yeah. So my mother is a genealogist. And maybe that’s where I get my historical interest from. But yeah, she’s searched far and wide to sort of back up this claim. And yeah, there doesn’t seem to be a way to do it. So I think that sort of stuff is fascinating, because that is a sort of an apocryphal story of our family totally. And you’re like, I don’t know if we can substantiate that. And, you know, that’s the distance but of what 400 or something years, and I’m like, This is what happens when people tell stories. And then they’re sort of reified through the retelling. And maybe they can become more exaggerated over time. And then all of a sudden, you’ve got too many people and not enough years, and you’re writing an animalistic history, and you have to solve that problem. Somehow,

Dr Rad 47:19
hi, they didn’t have consuls, they had something else and they were allowed to have more than two

Dr G 47:24
years, something with consular power. Very good

Dr Rad 47:30
military stuff with the tribes of Rome.

Dr G 47:33
Fascinating. Fascinating. Yes, I like it. Let’s do that.

Dr Rad 47:37
That way, we can all have illustrious relatives. You get a consul and you get a consul, you get a consul. So

Dr G 47:44
Indeed, indeed. And so one of the other things that Holloway is pretty suspicious of is the Annales Maximi, which is the Pontifical record. And

Dr Rad 47:55
g is the basis for so much of your beliefs.

Dr G 48:00
Just putting it out there, I’m just raising more doubts and just deal listeners. Yeah, if you’re ever in doubt about Roman history, this is the episode for you. So there’s apparently 80 books of the finales maximum, right. And Holloway is kind of like, but they what do they even have in them? Like, it’s just going to be an oddball collection of stuff that probably doesn’t make a lot of sense. Gonna stay close to the chicken. Then there are the linen books. He talks about these before. Yes, because cost of living Yeah, preserved in the temple of Juno monitor. And also cited by Linnaeus Mesa and Eilis tuber, other writers that we only have fragments of indeed,

Dr Rad 48:38
also cited by with me. And yes, I think I think the whole idea is that levy has potentially some information from living in books via his sources that use

Dr G 48:49
them. Oh, there doesn’t seem to be a consensus about the quality of the information in the linen books. There’s potential for disagreement within those as well, actually. So that’s good. And, you know, so this leaves us in a situation where, what is the history of where we’re getting rapidly towards the end of the fifth century BCE? We were heading there now. But this is a period where so little is something that we can hold on to as like, fact.

Dr Rad 49:19
Well, particularly because I think we’ve mentioned this in quite a few episodes, when we get to these really confusing times where people are saying, Ah, that’s it didn’t really happen, and those people probably didn’t really exist and they just made up names and it starts to make you question, what am I even doing? Right when it seems so doubtful, but as we talked about before, there is this real turning point where allegedly room is destroyed, razed to the ground, lots of records destroyed, and that our records will presumably get a bit more reliable once Rome itself and its record keeping is a little bit more protected from external attack and that sort of thing. But I mean, to be honest, even after that, you know, still had a lot of bloody fires in your nose was being destroyed?

Dr G 50:07
Well, exactly. And I think there’s always a value in considering how people writing about history within a society are thinking about their own society as well. And even if, at best, what we’re learning is what did Livy’s and Dionysius and other sort of first century BC or C authors really think about this really early period of their own history? I still think that’s a really valuable sort of tool because it provides the mindset for people of the day do then think about, well, if this is what Rome is, how do I operate from here? How do I fit into this? And how can I push and change from within this context? A shared understanding of history is one that allows you to make different decisions. Yes.

Dr Rad 50:49
And who are we to question Livy? Really?

Dr G 50:55
I mean, so I’m Dr. G. And I use that as my basis for being able to Livy’s At times,

Dr Rad 51:03
I know very realistically there, even though he is writing many centuries after we are podcasting 1000s of years after, so, I’m hoping that somewhere he had access to better sources.

Dr G 51:16
I mean, I’d like to think so.

Dr Rad 51:19
Or identity. So I think that brings us to the end of our episode or 417 and 416, which was seemingly really more about 416.

Dr G 51:30
Nobody got to Look at in from 470 really know

Dr Rad 51:33
that anyway. It’s done for the Partial Pick.

All right, Dr G, tell us how does the Partial Pick?

Dr G 51:46
There are 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs. 10 across five categories? Yeah, the higher the Eagles score, the greater room is.

Dr Rad 51:57
Alright, so what’s our first category? Military clout? Okay, well, there is definitely some stuff here. I mean, not so much 417 and 416. But because I left the tail end before it taken out. We do have some victories we do

Dr G 52:10
a victory over what the Aequians and the in the Labicani really? Yes.

Dr Rad 52:15
I mean, it’s one of those stories where always when Rome hits problems, we then get a story very soon after, where they just sweep everything before them. Effortless, easy, simple. But nonetheless, it happened to

Dr G 52:30
you telling me there’s some kind of narrative flow that you can detect in the history,

Dr Rad 52:34
the ebbs and flows, but nonetheless, we are told that they are victorious. And, and how I mean, they not only manage to beat them, but

Dr G 52:42
a shout out to those letters really rapidly. Yeah,

Dr Rad 52:45
they captured they can they made them run away to a nearby city to take refuge and they captured that city and took all the beauty from that. And then they set up a colleague. Oh, my God. That’s a lot of military class.

Dr G 52:56
Oh, give them to what? Just because you think it didn’t really haven’t? No. Doctors? I mean, they’ve only taken one place.

Dr Rad 53:08
Do you know how long it’s been since they’re

Dr G 53:11
willing to up it to three?

Dr Rad 53:12
I think they do deserve a three. I mean, it is a little suspicious that this guy didn’t get to travel anything, huh? Indeed. Very. All right. Well

Dr G 53:22
gave me three diplomacy. No. Yeah, it was pretty abject failure. In fact, the patricians are trying to really ruin the potential for diplomacy internally. Yeah. Getting some of the tribune of the plebs on the on their side.

Dr Rad 53:38
Well, I mean, I guess that is diplomatic, and that they’re not stabbing them in the streets. But I think I think there’s again, as we keep coming back to I think there’s a difference between being slightly diplomatic and mostly manipulative, and actual diplomacy.

Dr G 53:53
Yeah, yeah. So I’m giving them zero for that.

Dr Rad 53:55
I agree. Expansion. Yes. Yes. 1000 times? Yes.

Dr G 54:02
We have a whole new colony now. Do you? Oh, my God, the love and Connie are probably pretty unhappy. We’ll see how that turns out.

Dr Rad 54:10
If they felt they started this century. I’m happy. It’s only getting worse. And yet well, so what are we saying? We’ve got to call any reasonable amount of people. They’re all given a bit of land for.

Dr G 54:23
Not enough to live off. Well, I

Dr Rad 54:25
mean, as we say, this could just be a misunderstanding.

Dr G 54:26
All right, for we’re to us.

Dr Rad 54:31
Look, we do have some news for patrician douchebags on the scene, but I’m not sure if it’s quiet enough.

Dr G 54:36
Yeah. I don’t think they’re necessarily engaging you weird to us.

Dr Rad 54:40
Yeah. I mean, is killing your standard bearer. sign of weakness.

Dr G 54:44
I feel like I need more details to be able to clarify, because it might well be, but I don’t know. I feel like no citizen score.

Dr Rad 54:52
Hmm. Well, I mean, I guess there is a new colony being set up but the way the tribune is carrying on I feel like it’s not been good news for the people. While

Dr G 55:00
it does seem like they’re getting the raw end of the prawn, so to speak,

Dr Rad 55:05
yeah, and then the tribunes betray may cause so that can’t be so not ideal if you’re a citizen. No, no, not positive. So is that a zero?

Dr G 55:15
I think that might be a zero.

Dr Rad 55:18
I mean, on the other hand, though, I’m just going to throw it out there. There is peace in 417 and 416. All the problems are internal, which means no war, no levee. After you farm, see the kids?

Dr G 55:32
Yeah, sure. But you’re not getting any land or you’re not any

Dr Rad 55:35
more land. I mean, this is what we’ve often talked about, is the absence of war worth a point or is it?

Dr G 55:46
I think it’s a case by case basis. But if we want them to have not an objectively low score, perhaps we could give them one.

Dr Rad 55:53
Well, Look, I don’t mind having a low score. I guess I’m just wondering if the absence of war isn’t itself something we maybe have to recognise,

Dr G 56:01
I think, well, I mean, not going to war is great. But also they were trying for some things at home, which didn’t really get pulled off at all. So I feel like it’s risky.

Dr Rad 56:13
Yeah. Okay. So probably easier than yes. We get data love seven out of 50 Golden Eagles for two and a half years of Roman history.

Dr G 56:28
Boy, ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 56:31
Yes. Didn’t. Don’t why studied you for so long.

Dr G 56:36
They get good later, I think. Yeah, I’ve heard a rumour. But it just depends.

Dr Rad 56:43
Well, did you thank you once again for joining me to talk about the history of rain from the founding of the city.

Dr G 56:50
It has been an absolute pleasure, and I Look forward to continuing the journey with you soon

Dr Rad 56:56
indeed.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits, and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is Bettina Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. And today, we’d like to give a special shout out to our newest Patreon Dick Karis and Vanessa, you can also support us by buying a coffee on coffee. Huge thanks to Anne Marie, Dana Gray and Augustus naturally for their generous cups of support. However, if all of these avenues are beyond your means, please just tell us more about the show or give us a five star review. We massively appreciate your very kind words. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 141 – Divide and Conquer appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

We sit down with Yentl Love to talk all about classical reception in Lil Nas X’s 2021 music video for ‘Call Me By Your Name’. Yentl Love is the famous Queer Classicist and we recommend checking out her blog for accessible analysis of the ancient world. We are thrilled to have Yentl return to the show – you may remember her from the insightful conversation we had about the reception of Cleopatra.

Lil Nas X has enjoyed great success with his debut album Montero and we were keen to learn more about how he utilised allusions to the ancient world to drive conversations about black identity and queerness as well as to complicate ideas about the heroic and how we might derive meaning when we analyse the past.

It’s definitely worth watching the music video before getting into the episode itself!

The ancient world has a wealth of symbolism and allusion that has built up and developed over time through the use and reuse of imagery and ideas and this conversation really just touches some of the potentials.

Special Episode – Classical Reception in Lil Nas X with Yentl Love

What makes the ideal man? Lil Nas X poses the question with a visual allusion to Doryphoros, the famous sculpture by the Greek Polykleitos, which is thought to represent the physical ideal in ancient Greek culture. Doryphoros was a favoured subjected in later Roman sculpture as well.

Doryphoros from Pompeii – A Roman marble reimagining of a Greek sculpture by Polykeitos.
Now in the MAN Napoli.

The opening of the music video provides a sweeping vista that on the surface has the appearance of paradise but is dotted with ruined buildings and structures. What could this mean? We ask Yentl’s perspective.

Still from ‘Call Me By your Name’ showing a Doric Temple in the foreground and an Aqueduct in the background

Famously, Plato’s Symposium gets a shout out in ‘Call me By Your Name’ with a quotation that roughly translates as “After the division the two parts of man, each desiring his other half…” We consider the significance of this phrase in context and enjoy the fact that every so often someone uses an ancient language in a modern setting!

Still from ‘Call Me By Your Name’ Ancient Greek from Plato’s Symposium on the Tree of Knowledge

As the music video progresses, we see Lil Nas X shift scenes to an arena. The hairstyles on display in this scene recall the gravity defying hair styles favoured by the Flavian dynasty.

Still from ‘Call Me By Your Name’ showing hairstyles echoing the Flavians

For comparison, consider the hair style of the portrait bust below. Although the identity of the subject is not certain, this piece is often identified as Julia Titi, the daughter of the Flavian emperor Titus. She was reputed to be a great beauty, but it’s the very high ringlets that win the day here!

Portrait bust of a young woman with an extremely high hair style made of ringlets.
Capitoline Museum. Source: Tumblr

Interested in learning more about the writers mentioned in this episode? Consider the following:

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Still from ‘Call Me By your Name’ Music Video by Lil Nas X.
Notes that the video was directed by Tanu Muino and Lil Nas X, song produced by D. Baptiste, D. Biral, O. Fedi, R. Lenzo.

Lightly edited for clarity.

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to The Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:30
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:57
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I’m one of your hosts, Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:06
And I am Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:08
And we are thrilled to be joined today by Yentl Love, who is working on her PhD at Potsdam University and is universally famous for her blog as The Queer Classicist. Thank you so much for joining us.

Yentl 1:26
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I’m so glad to be back chatting to you more.

Dr Rad 1:31
So we’re very excited because we’re discussing something extremely cool. And actually, quite frankly, a little out of our comfort zone today.

Dr G 1:41
Yeah, look, I don’t think we are known as paragons of popular music. Nevertheless, we were super fascinated to see the rise. And the continued rise, I think of Lil Nas X, and what he is doing with his musical journey. And it is a thrill to sit down today with anto to talk about one specific music video that has come through and his debut album, and that is Montero “Call Me By Your Name”.

Dr Rad 2:09
So let’s kick it off with our first question. So let’s think about maybe classical reception more broadly. Because of course, the video clip is kind of what’s intrigued us all, I think with its imagery and whatnot. So classical reception can obviously take many forms. I personally like the film side of things, but can you talk us through what the phrase classical reception means to you?

Yentl 2:30
So yeah, I mean, as you said, this is a really, really broad field that we’re talking about, and it encompasses so much within it. On its most basic level, I’d say that when we are talking about classical reception, we’re kind of considering how the classical world so really looking at ancient Greece and Rome, and how it has been received and portrayed or represented across time. So this can be anything from an architecture, when we see buildings deliberately kind of evoking this ancient Greco Roman kind of period. Or in literature, like, famously Madeline Miller’s “Song of Achilles”, or in music, like Lizzo’s music video for “Rumors”, and we’re going to talk about Lil Nas X’s music video. And as well as like, where we see these parts of ancient history depicted. I think another big part of classical reception is thinking, why do we see these particular parts down? Why is there this use of like Greek and Roman material? What is the specific message that the work of reception is trying to put through? Through using it? But yeah, the field really is just massively wide. And what I really like about it is I think that all uses of classical reception are equally valid and equally worthy of study, like a piece of fanfiction about, like Mark Antony and Augustus, could be discussed in like just as much detail as like the architecture of the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin. All of this is just different types of classical reception.

Dr G 4:08
Yeah, there’s really a wide array of uses and reuses of ancient imagery. And when we’re talking about classical reception, hinting back at particularly Greece and Rome are though I imagine at some point, we’re also going to see in our lifetimes, the interrogation of classical in a more robust way, and I’m looking forward to seeing how that goes. But taking off from where we’re starting with, like this idea of classical reception in modern culture, for a little bit of context for our listeners out there who spend all ages and all interests, who is Lil Nas X?

Yentl 4:43
Okay, so Lil Nas X is a stage name for Montero Lamar Hill. He is a black, queer American rapper and singer songwriter, and I think probably he’s most famous for his song “Old Town Road”, but then he released his first studio album “Montero” in 2021. And yeah, the music video we’re going to be talking about is from one of the songs on that debut album.

Dr Rad 5:11
Absolutely. I mean, I had never heard of it before. I know everyone’s gonna be really shocked that I don’t follow rap. In any, you know, I really stopped listening after “Shoop”. And so I’m really glad that I had my attention directed towards his music video, because it is really fascinating. And we’re not the only ones to be interested in it. Because there’s some really intriguing representations and expressions of queerness. And the ways that the music video explores allusions to the ancient world. So what are some of the significant images and symbols that come through in the music video?

Yentl 5:47
So one of the things that’s like, most interesting, I think about the video is the way it forms almost like a long heroic art are a long narrative around this central character. But we can really split the whole video into three sections. There’s this kind of chasing at the start. And that’s taking place in a landscape where we see like architectural ruins of Greek buildings and temples, we see Greek inscriptions. And then that continues as we move into the second thematic section, which is in this kind of arena, big quality and style venue. So again, we’ve got this repeated association with Greco Roman architecture, which kind of really grounded it and discussion of the video as a work of receptions. And what’s really interesting with the second thing is that the figures are all depicted with these very, very tooled like elaborately cold wigs, which almost perfectly mirror the statues that we have of women from this period of Rome called Flavian. Rome. And in that period, we start to see a lot of concerns emerging about female independent about female sexuality. And so it’s the start of this like real discussion about almost like changing gender roles and concerns about sexuality. So it’s a really kind of niche insight into this ancient discussion of what was happening with gender and sexuality and then brought through into, you know, Lil Nas X’s exploration of this kind of queerness. And we also then, in the same scene have known as a pairing and chain, which has both been read through this kind of biblical lens as a reflection of John the Baptist, or of Samson with like Samson and Delilah, but also seems similar to Herakles or Hercules in Rome, in his outfit the way he’s portrayed, like in modern strongman, that’s not my area. But we see that same pose when you’re holding up columns with big chains, and that is referred to as the Hercules pose. So we get this kind of reflection of Hercules and no knights portraying himself as this kind of hero throughout the throughout the music video. And then again, when the venue changes, he descends into hell or Hades. And we see statues outside the gates which seem very, very Greek. They’re looking like these depictions of Doryphoros, which was sculpture, Polykleitos says he was sculpting like the ideal man. And so it’s like the spear bearer, and we see them standing outside the gate to hell. And then as he enters, we see statues of Medusa, which again, is a kind of image we’ve seen all throughout this music video. And that in itself has massive ties to both classical mythologies, classical receptions, and also to black culture. We have a lot of poems by black and diasporic women, where they kind of claim Medusa as a collective ancestor. Or they compare the way that Medusas hair is treated to the way that black women’s hair has been historically shamed. And kind of reviled by white western culture. If you want to read up more on that poets like Dorothea Smartt, and Shara McCallum really talk about this and exemplify this in their work. But yeah, so we have these kind of repeated motifs of different eras, the heroic area, the Medusa kind of metaphor, and the Medusa symbols, and then also this repeated discussion of like the architecture, the ruined architecture, and throwback to specific period and Roman history.

Dr Rad 9:36
I have to say, I am blown away by how much has actually been packed into this video clip because it’s like less than three minutes long.

Yentl 9:45
Yeah unbelievable. Literally, when I presented on this topic at a conference in April, I think, and when I was looking through the music video, it was almost like every two seconds just pausing it and being like taking note that oh, okay, and another thing on thing? So yeah, it’s just massively like you said, it’s really packed in.

Dr G 10:07
And I think it has this amazing capacity to draw on multiple sources at once and sort of enrich itself through its sort of intertextuality. So you’re storing that sort of reference, not just to Roman history, not just to the Greek heroic mode, but also those connections between queerness and blackness, and how that representation might be filtered through these different types of lenses. I really love the Flavian hair, I have to say, I think that’s amazing. And the Flavian is have this really tricky period where it’s this sort of backlash against the jeweler chlorians and the excesses of that, and some of the perceived power plays of women within that former dynasty. And so it’s like, how will Flavian women be perceived, and the way that this video sort of touches on that as well, and has that sort of call back to that sort of constraint in the feminine, that is happening through the way that hair is dressed is really interesting.

Yentl 11:09
Yeah, absolutely.

Dr G 11:10
So on that note, not only does Lil Nas X engage in classical illusion, visually, but we also get this direct intertextual reference to Plato’s Symposium. So there is a tree of knowledge in this video. So there’s no way to separate out the classical reception with the Christian reception that is going on here. But this tree of knowledge is a really prominent symbol in the video. And there is this moment where we get this close up of the tree trunk, and it’s inscribed with ancient Greek. And we never get a translation for that in the video, it’s just left there for the viewer to ponder on and enjoy. Or if you study ancient Greek to be like, Oh. My. God. Something is happening. So even though the phrase remains untranslated, it doesn’t really take long for the collective world to come together and look at what is being considered here, which is this really particular idea of “the division of two parts of men, each desiring his other half.” And I’m interested in the significance you read in this intertextual illusion.

Yentl 12:20
Yeah, I completely agree with the excitement when I first saw it as like, this is why all of those like hard use of doing ancient Greek, they are worth it for this specific music video. But yeah, this quote is one of my favorite, I think aspects of the whole video. So it’s referencing, as you said, Plato’s Symposium. And the specific part has been quoted comes from this discussion by the character s Aristophanes, talking about how early humans were double formed by two bodies in one. And then when their bodies were split by Zeus, they will always like search for their original half. So if you’re a woman that was in a female female body, you will search for another woman, if you are a man from a male male body, who search for another man, if you’re from a male female body, you will be searching for the other gender. So obviously, this discussion is supposed to be taken literally, they’re just swapping stories about ideas that they have about love in this passage. But it forms a really interesting kind of early discussion of the idea of soulmate, but also explaining why different people might be attracted to certain genders. So this quote, to me has this really important like dual meaning, not only the fact that it’s untranslated ancient Greek, I think really, like we said before, kind of grounds this as a work of classical reception, and grounds the whole piece in this discussion of kind of Greco Roman antiquity. But it’s also this deliberate reference to ancient discussions of sexuality. And the ways that ancient people were talking about same sex attraction, attraction, same sex love, which really establishes this video as, like beautiful queer performance. And also kind of brings up the idea of collective ancestors, or that queer desire has always existed, which I think is very important to be talking about now, especially when we’re saying, you know, there’s a lot of anti like homophobic, transphobic legislation going on in lots of different parts of the world, but particularly in America, where this video is being produced. And so yeah, I think it’s a really important reference back to the ancient Greek tradition.

Dr G 14:39
Yeah, definitely. I think it’s giving us an opportunity to think a little bit more deeply about where our attitudes first of all sprang from, and also just how embedded in the human experience queerness is and thinking about where people sit in terms of their identity and where they sit in terms of their sexuality, how has always been a conversation that people are having with each other, and sometimes in a much more structured, and dare I say polite way than is happening today?

Yentl 15:12
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I completely agree.

Dr Rad 15:15
And it’s really interesting to consider because I, when I was doing a bit of research in preparation for this conversation, I believe that when you look at the lyrics and the the meaning of those that Lil Nas X was drawing on some of his own romantic experiences as the sort of story for this particular song. And I think I think it was about somebody who he was having a form of relationship with, and that person wasn’t out yet. So it is kind of interesting, I think, to consider having that inscription in this video clip with that in mind as well, I guess.

Yentl 15:52
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, the kind of one of the repeated kind of refrains in the chorus is like, tell me you love me in private? And so yeah, I think it’s a very interesting kind of divide between the discussion of love, which has been had to be kept private, because of, potentially someone’s in the closet potentially worried about repercussions, versus this kind of very public discussion of all different types of love that they’re having in Plato’s Symposium at the dinner party where they are treating, you know, a different character at one point says, oh, there are two types of love. There’s like the common love which men have for women, and then there’s the Heavenly love which men have for other men. And so, you know, we’re, we’re even saying at times that like, this kind of same sex attraction, same sex love is like on the highest level here, this is what we should all aspire to, in the in this like, wider kind of piece by Plato. And then yeah, to then have that comparison there between this very public discussion. And then the, “tell me you love me in private”, like this very secretive kind of way that they’re discussing that throughout the lyrics of the music video, I think is a very emotional and very interesting device that we have.

Dr G 17:11
Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. And while you were going into the detail about that, I was also put in mind of the fact that we’ve got this sort of like layering of this tree of knowledge with the ancient Greek philosophical outlook as well. And so there’s this really sort of rich questioning that I think that is brought to the forefront by placing the ancient Greek within that context, because they were all for context. But there is a suggestion over time that symbolism around Christianity has really taken on its own kind of significance. And yet, something like this is bringing those two worlds back together and back in conversation with each other, which I think is absolutely fascinating as well.

Yentl 17:56
Yeah, I completely agree. I think, also, in my undergrad degree, that was the first time that I’d really got the opportunity to study kind of like early Christianity. And I think it’s very interesting to consider, you know, that when we’re talking about specifically kind of like coming into late antiquity, that these two worlds are happening at the same time. And so I think it’s really interesting to discuss, you know, when we have when we talk about, you know, allusions to like John the Baptist, or different kinds of figures like that from, you know, celebrated in the Christian faith, we also see them then being talked about and the similarities to how, you know, we see other Christian persecutions in ancient history and ancient Rome specifically. And yeah, it’s a really interesting kind of overlap, that I think is easily forgotten about, it’s easy to just pin Christianity into like that this is a religion, we don’t really need to study it, because it’s just a belief. It’s just, you know, that kind of religious practice. And so it’s very interesting to them. Consider, especially in early Christianity, and that’s happening in the same time as all this other kind of ancient history. And yeah, I think it’s really interesting to see the two being brought together like that.

Dr Rad 19:13
Yeah, we definitely have a really interesting overlap in the opening sequence of the video, which you could potentially interpret to be taking place in the Garden of Eden. And yet, it’s also littered with all these ruined buildings that are obviously meant to remind us of ancient Greece in ancient Rome. So the layered symbolism that we see here kind of offers the potential to read the garden as a place beyond Christian archetypes. Why do you think this might be important within the scope of Lil Nas X’s work?

Yentl 19:42
So yeah, as we’ve talked about, we have like two equally interesting, I think interpretations of the music video here. Both are equally valid, both are equally important. And you can certainly see a lot of from the kind of references to Christianity there. As this kind of act of reclaiming that as a queer artists, obviously we have seen throughout history sees still see now there is potentially a lot of backlash against the queer community, from religious people from some Christian people, obviously not all that there has been historically some backlash. And so then this acts kind of as an act of reclaiming then to use these symbols associated with Christianity and to use them in this celebration of, you know, the queer experience. But on the other hand, bringing in this kind of more Greco Roman ancient history perspective, I think the depiction of the ruined building is very interesting if you do this kind of deep reading, arguably way too intense analysis that was completely unintentional, but it’s very well within that kind of overall video and beam. So like the two main types of building that we see, there’s this Doric Temple, which is just an artistic type of Temple, and this aqueduct or viaduct. Now, Doric temples, especially in Rome, were associated with masculinity and manhood by particular authors, and disco Vitruvius, who’s like an architect and engineer, that he said, like Ionic tempos are feminine. Doric temples are masculine, direct temples, if you’re going to have a male god has to be in a dark temple, because they’re masculine, and all curvy, little architecture, they’re just strikes narrow, that masculine and manly.

Dr Rad 21:33
Such nonsense! Never heard of it.

Yentl 21:40
So yeah, and then when we see viaducts, they’re kind of a massive part of Roman propaganda, in the like, politics of their expansion there and the empire building, because through bringing water to areas that were previously like, arid, didn’t have water, they thought they had conquered the quote, unquote, savageness of the natural world. And so these kind of massive buildings like acted as this like monument of the symbol of like their victory of civilization over the rest of the world. So through showing these kind of both of these buildings as ruined and destroyed, I think we get this, the start of this motif, or this theme of the destruction of traditional masculinity and manhood, as well as the queer potential for kind of disrupting civilization disrupting social order. And yeah, instead kind of challenging the like political, cultural, societal norms. And so, yeah, this theme of like queer disruption, and the challenge to like hetero masculinity really flows throughout the whole video. And so I think it’s interesting that we see this depicted in the specific ruined buildings that are included within this kind of Garden of Eden, early scene.

Dr G 23:03
Yeah, we get the sense of the ways in which society can be challenged, how it can be overcome. And I think this actually, these ideas feed in really nicely to thinking about Lil Nas X and the intersection of his identities as both being black and queer as an artist, both of which have been historically marginalized. And I’m interested in how this context that he is bringing to the table as an artist is influencing how he might interpret this music video, and its significance.

Yentl 23:38
So to me, I think this is one of the most important parts of the whole music video. See, yeah, Lil Nas X is a black man. And unfortunately, when we see classics being used outside of scholarship, and also traditionally within classical scholarship, it’s often associated with white supremacy or with racism. If you look at any reports of like the alt right or white supremacist rallies in America, you see people with “molon labe” signs, which is like ancient Greek term meaning come and take them, which by them, they mean weapons or in US politics, guns, which distributed to the Spartans. And I mean, speaking of Spartans, like man who did outright love they’re literally everything, the 300 they’ve seen themselves as these kind of hyper masculine macho men fighting against like all effeminate Eastern culture that these like yeah, effeminate foreigners are coming to, like, destroy our culture, I think

Dr G 24:41
Nothing says manhood, like sprayed on abs.

Yentl 24:45
Know exactly, and a bunch of men are naked together holding spears.

Dr Rad 24:49
Yup, that is true masculinity.

Yentl 24:54
I mean, yeah, it’s horrific, but they just love these ancient kind of heroic men. They see like Ancient Greece and Rome as all whites hypermasculine heroic ideal, which let’s be clear, untrue, for so many reasons, every part of that is untrue. So for Lil Nas X to represent himself kind of as a territories figure or this ancient hero, he embodies this ancient heroism as a black man, while he simultaneously also embraces femininity. And I think this really challenges on multiple levels, this hateful, racist rhetoric that is massively associated specifically with ancient Greek warfare and heroes. And so we see Lil Nas kind of reclaim Herakles and these heroes from the hands of the alt right. And he turns this heroic narrative from this, like hyper masculine kind of white call to power into a celebration of Black excellence, femininity and beauty, which is just massively important and powerful. And then kind of on top of that, you have the constant constant references to his queer identity. And the historic presence of queer desires queer relationships, which are solidified by there’s a Latin inscription right at the very end of the music video, which reads, “they condemn what they do not understand”, which is a very, very emotive reference that you can read to, towards, you know, LGBT experiences, LGBTQ plus lives, and this kind of discrimination against them, which is, sadly still kind of present at the moment.

Dr Rad 26:36
Yeah, and I think particularly if we think about the imagery of that potential Hercules/Herakles scene, we probably should mention for people who haven’t seen the video clip yet, although I’m sure they will stop this episode and kind of watch to me that the coloring as well I think is really feminine. The fact that he’s got like, almost like a fairy floss pink wig and yeah, accessories. Yeah.

Yentl 27:03
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Dr Rad 27:05
I mean, if you didn’t if you didn’t know, it was a potential allusion to like the flavors to me. It almost gave like Sofia Coppola “Marie Antoinette” vibes.

Yentl 27:14
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with that. Yeah. With a massive tulle, over-the-top hairpieces? Yeah.

Dr Rad 27:22
And the color scheme being almost like candy.

Yentl 27:25
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Dr Rad 27:30
So, so think about that Herakles scene in particular, obviously, like a key, it’s a key scene in the video to show him under arrest and being led into this building, which, as you’ve noted, seems very sort of Colosseum like, or like an ancient arena of some kind. So I think we could definitely see this a number of ways you could see it as an allusion to Christian persecution under the Romans, particularly when the scene later reveals that Lil Nas X’s in chains before our large crowd, which is seated really high above him, but what do you take away from this particular scene? And how do you see this particular classical illusion operating?

Yentl 28:06
Yeah, I think definitely, you can read this as that. Christians were largely persecuted within this period of Roman history, because they were seen as being kind of other not acting the way they should. Part of this strange almost like sound family vibe, which really threaten the way that society worked at the time, this kind of patriarchal, family-centered norms of society, the idea that Christians were being really threatened that. And so actually, a lot of that backlash really kind of parallels the experience of LGBTQ plus people in today’s society. And so yeah, I think that definitely just acts as a mirror in itself right there. But then, from a classical perspective, we have this parallel to the figure of Herakles, Lil Nas enters wearing what looks like the skin of like a lion, albeit pink, which is how we see Herakles depicted in art. And he’s also got chains similar to kind of the modern concepts that we talked about earlier. But a lot of Herakles’ mythologies are actually very queer in nature. When he’s with the queen of the Amazon to politics, they swap clothes and swap gender roles. So he’s out there like almost in drag, you know, dressed as a woman. And then he also has a massive amount of boyfriends. Plutarch actually says that it will be impossible to name all of his male lovers. But most famously, one of his relationships with this guy called Iolaus. I actually have never said that out loud, I’ve only read that so apologies if I’m saying that wrong. But with this other hero, Plutarch actually says that pairs of male lovers would go to his tomb to pay their respects because of this kind of queer association. So yeah, I think his characterization is heritage is also really plays on this really interesting thing kind of balanced between masculinity and queerness. And all of these questions about traditional heteronormative ideas of manhood and how femininity and sexuality can influence and kind of play with these ideas.

Dr Rad 30:16
Yeah, so against our modern version of Hercules, I think because he is your strong man, Arnold Schwarzenegger type figure. It’s yeah, I think it’s bizarre to most people who haven’t spent much time in sort of the classical world to see him as being queer.

Yentl 30:32
I mean, did The Rock play him at one point, I swear there’s a film?

Dr Rad 30:35
Yes, he did.

Yentl 30:37
I would love to see that and take into account like these, when he goes to the Amazon see him in this little dress, just like doing all the women’s jobs and like not not being annoyed. He doesn’t seem fussed. He just gets on with it.

Dr Rad 30:50
I think The Rock would be up for that.

Yentl 30:52
I think he would be.

Dr Rad 30:53
Yeah, I think he’s up for that.

Yentl 30:55
Yeah, if he listens to your podcast,

Dr Rad 30:58
He definitely does!

Yentl 31:00
I’m sure he does, yeah.

Dr Rad 31:02
That’s where he got the idea for the movie naturally.

Dr G 31:07
I think this actually draws a parallel as well to the other really famous sort of heroic figure from the Greek side of things, which is Achilles, because he also has these moments where he hides at certain points amongst groups of women dresses, takes on the dress of women, and is also reputed to be very close with Patroclus. And that sense of that intense loving relationship between those two men is something that drives the Iliad in many respects. So it’s fair to say, I think that Lil Nas X is drawing upon a really rich tradition of Greek masculinity. And the way that that intersects really clearly and boldly with queer identity.

Yentl 31:56
Yeah, absolutely. And I think in a way that doesn’t necessarily translate to how people might view this kind of heroic, hyper masculine man in the modern day. And I think it’s really important and interesting kind of drawback, because, yeah, all so many of these kinds of heroes have these queer storylines behind them? And yes, I think it’s really powerful, and also a challenge to the idea that when we think of like, a super masculine man, we think are, must have like loads of women, or must be, you know, has to be straight. And so I think it’s a really interesting challenge to be like wellness, like all of these, you know, heroes from Greek myths, that are really also held up as being like, oh, yeah, these are like the best, the strongest, most manly macho man. And so to say, actually, you know, there wasn’t this supposed incompatibility between queerness and femininity, and also being a very strong, very powerful man. So yeah, I think it’s a really important discussion.

Dr Rad 32:58
I mean, there’s six guys, but they’re six guys for all. It actually does make you think when you look at when you unpick all of these examples, and all of these, you know, ways of interpreting the classical world that the alt right throw around, it does make you sort of wonder like, have you studied the classical world at all? started using this so called evidence?

Yentl 33:25
Yeah, it’s even like with the “molon labe” signs like “come and take them”. They seem to like conveniently forget that the Persians did indeed take those. The Persians very successfully defeated. It’s like what you just, yeah. I mean, obviously, they’ve done little to no research whatsoever. No reason.

Dr G 33:45
I feel like they’ve just missed all of the good bits, guys. The Spartans lost, and you can love whoever you want. It’s okay.

Yentl 33:55
Yeah, don’t worry. It’s fine.

Dr Rad 33:57
Look into Spartan marital practices. And you’re like, Yeah, talk about complicated relationships.

Yentl 34:03
Yeah, exactly.

Dr Rad 34:05
And a slight difference between ancient Spartan weaponry and semi automatic weapons.

Dr G 34:17
Well, but you know, getting back to the subject. So in the third section of this video clip for that you’ve mentioned, we have this descent to hell, and it appears to be initially an extension of the arena. If anything, it’s here that it becomes really clear that we’ve got a reference visually to the Colosseum, because it seems like the Colosseum is operating as a portal to another plane of existence. I’m curious about the sort of commentary you see Lil Nas X making about the ancient world in this sort of transition.

Yentl 34:58
Yeah, it’s a really interesting They make part of the music video. And I think, you know, you can read from that, potentially, you know, a lot of people did die in the Colosseum, especially with like Christian persecution. People don’t think that, like, historians don’t really think the whole like fed to the lions thing rarely happened as much as we actually, like. It is said that it happened in kind of modern culture, I don’t think that really happened as much as so you know, people did die here. And so the idea of this being like, on the journey to death really, I think, is a very valid kind of way to look at it. But also, I think it’s particularly interesting if you consider it as part of this heroic narrative that we’ve seen happening kind of throughout the music video. So just after the Coliseum scene, and before he kind of descend down, we see Lil Nas X kind of ascend to what might be seen as like heaven, potentially, or this like paradise. This winged figure appears above him that he can’t make it there. And he falls back down. And we get this very famous, very sexy pole dancing descent into hell. Definitely worth watch if anyone hasn’t seen it already.

Dr Rad 36:12
I only wish I could pole dance like that.

Yentl 36:16
If we consider heroes in ancient Greek tradition, for example, we have this kind of katabasis, or this descent into hell, forming a massive part of their heroic identity, their heroic narratives. We see this, again with Herakles, but also with Odysseus, with Theseus even with Aeneas. So this really emphasizes Lil Nas X’s kind of character is being one of these typical Greco Roman heroes, is really brought into the ranks of all of the heroes that we’ve seen before him. And then after, again, this incredible kind of lap dance to the devil theme, we see Lil Nas X defeat the ruler of hell or of Hades, and he immediately gain once he’s like completed this task, he gains the like wings, these massive wings that he would have needed in order to reach this kind of heaven or paradise that we’ve just seen earlier. So he’s kind of just completed his heroic narrative there, because you’ve gained what he would have needed to be successful at the start. And so I think this aspect of the video can really be read. And yeah, it’s like cementing them as exes character as a classic Greek hero, completing the same kind of narrative arc, and then bringing with that all of the challenges to the heteronormative hypermasculine, white supremacist adoption of Greco Roman heritage that we’ve discussed earlier.

Dr Rad 37:43
I must admit, I will say it still boggles my mind how much has been packed into this short video? Do you have any sense? Because I mean, I know that Yentl and Lil Nas X, you guys are as close as people can be. Do you have any sense whether this all came from him? Or whether this was part of like a creative team he was working with?

Yentl 38:01
I don’t know. I’ve actually tried to look this up, because I wanted to see if there was any ancient historian on the team, because I felt like surely there must have been, but I couldn’t actually find any of the details. But obviously, Lil Nas X listens to your podcast as well.

Dr Rad 38:14
Naturally, naturally, all the greats do.

Yentl 38:17
If he could get in contact with me, and let me know, I’d be very interested. Because yeah, I tried to use that when I was speaking about this topic at a conference. And I couldn’t actually find whether there were historians involved. But I would really like to. I volunteer my services, of course, for later music videos, I’m available.

Dr Rad 38:36
We could all become part of his advisory team.

Yentl 38:41
Yeah, exactly. Yes, I see that as a very real possibility.

Dr Rad 38:47
All he needs to do is listen to this episode, he’ll be like, Oh my god, they’ve been wanting me to contact them. And I was too shy.

Yentl 38:52
Okay.

Dr G 38:53
Get in touch, man. Get in touch. We’re out, we’re ready.

Dr Rad 38:58
Just as a an interesting question, I suppose to sort of wrap everything up. I suppose that by talking about all the challenges that Lil Nas X is posing to some interpretations of like the classical world, and, and all of that kind of stuff that we’ve been, we’ve been talking about, it kind of makes the ancient world sound like this queer paradise where anything goes in terms of your sexuality. I was wondering if maybe we could wrap up with maybe a bit of a chat about about that, and about what we can tell about how people were living their lives and exploring their sexualities in the ancient world.

Yentl 39:34
Yeah, so I think, by no means we should consider ancient Greece and Rome is kind of this utopian paradise, which is very easy to do. We choose specific sources and we look at specific things. But that wasn’t actually the case. And there were a lot of, although in some scenarios, same sex relationships, same sex attraction was considered to be Eat good. And to be honest, like ideal, it was in very, very select situation. So in ancient Greece, we see if there’s an adult man, and a kind of younger, like 14-15 year old boy, then that’s acceptable, because we have this kind of pederasty, this, like erotic relationship. And it’s seen as a way of kind of almost like a social ritual to transition from boys into adult men. But even then it seemed like, the adult man should be very into it, and the boy shouldn’t really be that into it. So it’s very, there are very a lot of restrictions on that. And adult men potentially shouldn’t be in a relationship like that. That’s not proper, if the man is too old. Some sources say like, if the young man has a beard when he’s too old, then that’s it. But then we do have in Plato’s Symposium, you know, one of the characters is saying that people that have this kind of upper level of love, this desire for men will continue on into adulthood, and will have wives and children because they have to, but would rather live with other men by themselves in a fake kind of union, and will be very happy just living with a man just by themselves, they do have the recognition that obviously like this did still happen, even if that wasn’t the ideal way that sexuality should be portrayed. And in ancient Rome, it’s kind of the idea is that the, there is no shame if you’re a man, having sex with anybody else. But if you’re the kind of receiver of the sex, and that is shameful, because that’s being like a woman. And as we all know, women are shameful, it’s literally a word. Men should not be like a woman in any way, because that will be awful and wrong. So yeah, so again, we have this kind of split between what was acceptable, and then the kind of role that then wasn’t acceptable. But then obviously, if you are a powerful person, whatever goes, you know, like when Nero took was married to two different men, one of them, he was, like, took the role of the bride. One, he was like the groom, as we would say, I guess. And you know, he’s the Emperor who’s going to do anything to him, like, he what he says go, you know,

Dr Rad 42:31
Until he gets stabbed, of course.

Yentl 42:38
So we have this whole spectrum of what was considered acceptable, what wasn’t considered acceptable. But then also, we have these kind of pockets of same sex attraction, same sex relationships, like the Sacred Band of Thebes, are this band of warriors that are said to all be in kind of erotic relationships with each other, so that they would fight better. And, as far as I know, there’s not much I haven’t seen a lot of ancient sources saying, like, oh, this was wrong, because they were all men that were fighting together, you know, there are certain areas where it’s considered acceptable. But also, it’s just evidence that queer relationships were happening, and happened, you know, in all kinds of ways, a lot of our sources just come from these main city points, like in Athens, in Rome, whatever. But the ancient world goes so much further than just these kind of hotspots of where a lot of our sources come from. And so I think that what we can take from them is that yeah, there was obviously same sex attraction. People were in queer relationships, and we have from loads of sources talking about even when, you know, a relationship might have started as this kind of socially acceptable pederasty in ancient Greece, they didn’t break up then when the younger one got to a certain age, they just carried on dating. And so yeah, there’s I mean, you just have to read the works of Sappho as well to see that we do have, you know, also romantic relationships or same sex attraction between women occurring and see it written down in different places.

Dr Rad 44:15
Yeah, it is so fascinating when you look at the ancient world, because whilst obviously some of our sexual norms are quite different to the rules that were in place in these different places, I kind of feel like there is one commonality and that power is so often a hallmark of all of our sexual standards or our sexual relationships, it even though it might not play out in exactly the same way, I feel like power always has a role that it always is what people are kind of really concerned about.

Yentl 44:44
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But I think also that it’s an important thing that we shouldn’t overlook. Like when certain figures from history are kind of, you know, I went to an exhibition on kind of, like queer love, race. something or a few years ago, and they were kind of celebrating, like Hadrian and Antinous as this kind of beautiful queer relationship, but also like Hadrian was an emperor who was a lot older, and Antinous was like a 16 year old boy. And so it’s like, can we really? Should that be the kind of relationship that we’re celebrating? Was there a lot of agency there? And so I think we definitely can’t look back on this as kind of this paradise of Oh, and it was completely accepting. And, yeah, and it was so forward thinking, because it wasn’t in massive amounts of waves for many, many reasons. And so yeah, while we can see that queer people have always existed, that people have always experienced, same sex attraction, same sex love, we can’t kind of hold this up as like this perfect kind of paradigm of what society should be like, because it was very problematic in so many different ways.

Dr Rad 46:02
Yeah, especially in Rome, because it was often that, you know, like, a man could have sex, as you say, with, with, with most people who were seen as being beneath him. So like his, like slaves or women. But he wouldn’t be able, I don’t think to have sexual relationships with say, like a citizen boy, without that being frowned upon, regardless of the role he was taking.

Yentl 46:25
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so. So yeah, I think it’s very important that we don’t, it can be tempting, obviously, to look back at these figures and see collective ancestry or whatever, you kind of searching for to see that. And it’s definitely valid to, you know, see these examples of queer desire and LGBTQ plus slides. That also I think we need to take it with a pinch of salt, and also be just thinking, okay, yeah, thinking critically about these things as well.

Dr G 46:55
Yeah, there’s that sense of there is both the ideas which is central to the way that we understand the world and drawing upon that history to further deepen our understanding and appreciation of humanity in all of its facets. But then keeping note of that critical lens on particular contexts and how these things are embedded in real worlds and the consequences they have for the people who lived in those periods of time.

Yentl 47:22
Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more.

Dr Rad 47:24
Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently, because obviously, with pride month, there have been so many episodes of podcasts coming out about Oscar Wilde. And I love Oscar Wilde writing so much. And he obviously studied the classics, and he really adored them. And he did. So he did talk about, you know, Greek ideals of homosexual love and homosexual relationships, and that sort of thing. And it is really tempting to obviously see him as this tragic persecuted victim, which, obviously, I think on so many levels, he was a victim of his context and that sort of thing. But one thing I had forgotten was how many of his relationships were with much younger boys, because he was at he was sort of holding up that Greek sort of plastic ideal in quite a few of his relationships. And it is easy to sort of overlook that kind of aspect of his life as well.

Yentl 48:19
Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, we can’t hold up certain figures. I don’t know what the equivalent I’ve been talking about some in like teaching about, like, not holding up female figures and saying, like, don’t want to, like go boss them, but I don’t know what the equivalent for.

Dr G 48:36
I think it’s “boy boss”.

Yentl 48:38
boy boss – yes. Let’s not boy boss characters as queer heroes. But yeah, and just an important thing with pederasty as well, because I think it can link to and be used in like, certain aspects of like, homophobic rhetoric, the in ancient Greece, also, this age that the boys were when they entered these kind of relationships is the same age that girls were considered ready for marriage. That wasn’t like a specific thing, just because it was a same sex relationship. That was the idea at the time was okay. By the time someone is around 15, they are ready to have a sexual relationship and they are ready to like, either if they’re a girl to be married, if they’re a boy to then begin this transition into becoming a man and then they will marry when they are older. So I think that it’s an important thing to remember that it’s not just that this is to do with it, the fact that it was queer or fact that it was like homoerotic. And I just think that’s an important. That’s an important thing to remember.

Dr Rad 49:36
Definitely. And in fact, that was something that again, come out came out at the time with Oscar Wilde’s trials in that people were some people were highlighting that everyone was getting in such a tizzy about his relationships with men at the time, but they didn’t seem too concerned about the age that women were when they were being, you know, either married or for you Maybe forced into sex work or whatever. So yeah, it’s it’s funny that there Yeah. There’s also that caveat to that particular example as well.

Dr G 50:09
Yeah, I think this conversation has gone in in so many different directions. Now. It’s really like yeah, like, and it’s, I think it opens up the conversation in really important ways. Because it’s like, there is a historical through line for us when we think about how we understand ourselves. And also, like the contextual differences over time as well, that become really those points that you hold on to as well, because it’s like, yeah, as you say, there’s not necessarily a utopia out there in the in the past, but there is ways in which we can utilize the ancient world in the way that like Lil Nas X has done in this music video, to think about and to requestion, some of the values that are on display in the mainstream today.

Yentl 51:01
Yeah, I completely agree. I think the music video just wraps all of this up and really emphasizes the discussions that this can that it can foster about antiquities, sexuality, and also the modern day.

Dr Rad 51:15
Well, hopefully, a lot of the people who have been persuaded by the views of the alt right will be super keen to listen to this episode, and check out Lil Nas X’s work. And so to see the lies that have been fed, the classical way of looking at this particular song, and I must admit, I felt like my mind was really opened up by looking at this particular example, which I don’t think I would have come across, if not for your work, Yentl, so thank you so much.

Yentl 51:42
I’m glad you enjoyed. Yeah, I think everyone should watch the music video. Critical piece of art.

Dr G 51:47
And I think as you say, like every time you look at it, you see more in it. Like, I’ll admit that like Latin is by far more preferred ancient language of ancient Greek and I did not spot the Latin.

Yentl 52:02
Yeah, literally, every single time I watch it, there’s something that I haven’t seen before. Oh, wait. Actually, that’s, maybe that’s a reference to this thing, this very nice, ancient historical fact.

Dr Rad 52:14
Well, people should definitely check out your blog on this particular music video, because I know I remember from when I was reading it, that there’s so many more allusions to episodes in mythology that we haven’t even touched on. I mean, the snake. We haven’t mentioned the snake and, and I mean, there’s so much more. So please go and check out Yentl’s blog. She is the Queer Classicist.

Dr G 52:34
And thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah. And so it’s been an absolute pleasure.

Yentl 52:38
Thank you both for having me. It’s been, yeah, so much fun to chat to you both.

Dr G 52:55
Thank you for tuning in it to this interview episode are The Partial Historians, we want to say a huge shout out, thank you to all of you, our beautiful listeners. And if you’d like to show your love for the show, there’s a few ways you can do it. We would love to read your positive reviews on whichever platform you choose to listen to us on. You can also follow us on our social media – we’re on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Mastodon. You could buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi or join our Patreon crew for early releases. We are so thankful for your listenership and we’ll catch you next time soon.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Special Episode – Classical Reception in Lil Nas X with Yentl Love appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

After the kerfuffles of 420 BCE, it’s time for a brand new year or two! In this episode we consider 419 and 418 BCE. These two years are packed with exciting moments as we get to learn about an uprising from below – we’re siding with the slaves!

We recorded in a new location for this episode. So if you hear a little bit of crowd noise in the background that’s all part of the atmosphere of taping out and about.

Episode 140 – The Commonwealth of Slaves

It happens every so often, but in this year there’s a few twists! Whose side are the gods on? Is that the smell of smoke? We consider the representation of enslaved people in the ancient written literary sources that provide us with their annalistic narratives…

As events unfold, we take a moment to explore the nature of bodily punishment and particularly crucifixion in ancient Rome. Where did it come from? When did it come into practice? We consider the details.

Still from the film “Spartacus” (1960) showing the crucifixion of the rebels by Rome. We touch on Spartacus in our consideration of the practice of crucifixion. Note, the fate of the historical Spartacus is not known.
Source: No Name Movie Blog

It comes as no surprise that the Romans might be facing trouble from their neighbours, but the years 419-418 BCE hold not just trouble without but disagreements between the military tribunes with consular power. How will Rome wrangle their own leaders into line? And will they be able to do it in time to win the day on the battlefield? We delve into the details.

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects are courtesy of BBC Beta.

A map showing regions south and east of Rome including a possible location for Labicum – just north east of Tusculum!
Other important sites include Tusculum in the Alban Hills to the south-east of Rome.
Image credits to ColdEel and Ahenobarbus. Source: Wikimedia Commons.

Lightly edited for clarity!

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to The Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:30
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:56
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. And I am one of your hosts, Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:05
And I am your other host Dr Rad. Welcome.

Dr G 1:08
Welcome, welcome one and all, we are tracing Rome’s history from the foundation of the city. And it’s exciting times. It’s been exciting times for a while. It’s always an exciting episode when we return to Rome,

Dr Rad 1:21
I think, I think so. So last time, Dr. G, we were in the midst of 420 BCE.

Dr G 1:28
Ah, it was a great year.

Dr Rad 1:30
It was a great year because we actually got to talk about a woman It has been so long since we mentioned a woman.

Dr G 1:36
We’ve been going through a real dry patch with ladies.

Dr Rad 1:40
Which is not something you want to hear.

Dr G 1:42
No, no as a lady that is not not a great status quo. So we touched on the life and times of the Vestal Virgin Postumia. We did and she got herself into a little bit of trouble for having a sense of humor and a sense of style.

Dr Rad 1:58
I mean, if they’re not a criminal offense, I don’t know what is.

Dr G 2:03
With the danger of live burial on the table. I think she changed her tune and adjusted her behaviour.

Dr Rad 2:09
It seems like she backed down once she realized just how seriously they took this kind of stuff.

Dr G 2:16
Imagine trying to have a personality in ancient Rome, and now…

Dr Rad 2:20
That’s not what being a Vestal’s about.

Dr G 2:22
Ouch.

Dr Rad 2:22
Yeah. Luckily, she did escape live burial. I mean, that was my real concern that she was actually going to be buried alive for her raunchy dressing. And her jokes.

Dr G 2:36
Yeah, tragic times, tragic times. But no, all is safe. And well, Postumia goes on to live. So she’s presumably still alive as we run into the year. That was 419.

Dr Rad 2:48
Yeah, I know. And we’ve also got, obviously a bit of a patrician-plebeian and drama that’s been happening in that we also had the trial of Sempronius.

Dr G 2:55
Yes, well, that’s what happens when you run away from a battle.

Dr Rad 2:58
Well, this is the thing right? Our sources, as we discovered last week, made out like the tribunes were attacking him because they wanted to vent they rage against his family, and they couldn’t vent it against the person who they felt actually deserved it at that point in time, who was allegedly someone arranging fake elections and not allowing the plebeians to get through and so they decided to target the other Sempronius guy Sempronius military general from a few years before, but if you actually think about it, he deserved to be prosecuted. Because he had done a terrible job.

Dr G 3:36
It’s true.

Dr Rad 3:37
Yeah.

Dr G 3:38
Yeah, look 420, what a time.

Dr Rad 3:41
Yeah, it was interesting. I mean, lots of legal action really. So we really need to insert the doo-dum

Dr G 3:49
I see what you did that more. I heard what you did.

Dr Rad 3:54
Anyway, but that sounds so yeah, it was really all about the legal stuff and 420 but now I think we’re probably ready to move into 419 BCE.

Dr G 4:26
It’s 419 BCE

Dr Rad 4:29
Certainly is. Now let me guess, let me guess. You don’t have any material from Dionysius of Halicarnassus?

Dr G 4:39
Oh well on that front, you’d be mistaken. It’s not that I have a lot of sources though. And it’s not like I have a lot of Dionysius of Halicarnassus.

Dr Rad 4:50
Okay.

Dr G 4:51
But let’s start with our main players for this year.

Dr Rad 4:56
Let’s do it. Now. I think very excitingly, we have military tribunes with consular power.

Dr G 5:01
We do, and we’ve got four of them.

Dr Rad 5:04
Ooh.

Dr G 5:04
Let me introduce you to our cast of illustrious gentleman.

Dr Rad 5:08
Please do.

Dr G 5:09
We have Agrippa Menenius Lanatus – previously, apparently, consul in 439, which was a long time ago!

Dr Rad 5:20
Who can remember that long ago that was what five years ago now?

Dr G 5:24
Notable for the issue with Spurius Maelius.

Dr Rad 5:29
Ooo, okay yes, I am remembering this guy now. Yes, of course. How could I forget 439?

Dr G 5:37
Yeah, it was a big year.

Dr Rad 5:38
Yeah.

Dr G 5:38
We also have Publius Lucretius Hosti Tricipitinus

Dr Rad 5:46
Bloody hell, what a name

Dr G 5:48
Tri-cip-i-tinus

Dr Rad 5:52
I have another version which is I think TricipiTINUS

Dr G 5:56
Oooo.

Dr Rad 5:57
Yeah, I know but who knows? I think basically we can say that three is a part of that name.

Dr G 6:04
I think we can and there are too many ‘i’s for me as an English speaker to be able to handle

Dr Rad 6:08
Yeah, too many.

Dr G 6:08
Which is why I struggle with Italian as well. This guy seems to be new – no mention of him in previous years.

Dr Rad 6:15
I think we’d remember that many syllables.

Dr G 6:17
Look, I’d have trouble every single time as well. I keep tripping over his name. Third off the ranks is Spurius Nautius Rutilus.

Dr Rad 6:31
Yep. Yep.

Dr G 6:33
Also new.

Dr Rad 6:35
I remember I remember Nautius before I feel like I’ve heard that.

Dr G 6:38
Yeah, I like Spurius Nautius. I feel like that’s the nice companion to Spurius Furius.

Dr Rad 6:43
Yeah. Spurius Nautius is just a little bit camp.

Dr G 6:47
He goes to all the parties.

Dr Rad 6:47
He’s like, Oh, giiirl.

Dr G 6:52
The kind of man you want to be friends with.

Dr Rad 6:54
Exactly, exactly.

Dr G 6:55
And last but definitely not least, Gaius Servilius Axilla.

Dr Rad 7:01
Ooh. Now that is an unusual name. But again, I feel like we have maybe come across that before.

Dr G 7:06
We have – previously consul in 427.

Dr Rad 7:09
There you go.

Dr G 7:09
And is about to start a really stellar hattrick as military tribune with consular power – this is the year that it begins. So that’s some foreshadowing for everybody.

Dr Rad 7:23
Now, I’d like to start with a quote, if I may. Oh, unless you have any more magistrates?

Dr G 7:27
No, no, I think that’s it.

Dr Rad 7:29
I didn’t think so. You just looked at me like, “wait, there are more magistrates.” I was like, “Are there? Did I miss it?”

Dr G 7:35
No, there’s only four.

Dr Rad 7:36
Okay, so my translation of Livy has great sentence, I think for kicking off 419 BCE: “It was a year remarkable, thanks to the good fortune of the Roman people, for a great danger, but not a disaster”.

Dr G 7:51
Wow. Livy’s setting up that sense of suspense and mystery really early on.

Dr Rad 7:56
Yeah, but also letting you know that it’s going to be okay. I think like in the grand scheme of things.

Dr G 8:00
Phew – okay, for whom, though? I feel like Livy is a bit pro-patrician really.

Dr Rad 8:05
A bit? Yes, I think you would be correct in it. So I do have a bit of a story about some slaves, Dr. G. Should I tell it to you or do you have some?

Dr G 8:17
I would love that.

Dr Rad 8:18
Okay, so what Livy, I think, he’s referring to here is that we actually have a bit of a conspiracy from below.

Dr G 8:27
Oh, no, not conspirosity?

Dr Rad 8:29
Yeah. Yeah. So the slaves have this plot. And it’s just the slaves. Like, I presume that means every single slave, but obviously, why get into specifics, when it’s coming to the lower classes. They have a plot to set Rome on fire from various points. Now, that’s not because they’re actually trying to set room on fire. Stay with me.

Dr G 8:52
That is an accidental side part?

Dr Rad 8:54
It really is. The idea is that the fires are a mere distraction, Dr. G, because the idea is that the Roman citizens would therefore be sort of pulled in different directions all over the city and kind of to the outskirts of the city, because this is where the fires would be happening. They’d be trying to save their houses. They’re trying to put out the fire. The slaves would be taking over control of the Citadel and the Capitol using an armed force. It’s an evil plan!

Dr G 9:26
Well, that’s very exciting. Okay, all right. I I’m not sure how to necessarily feel about that. There is some correlation in Dionysius of Halicarnassus.

Dr Rad 9:38
Really?

Dr G 9:39
My man’s back! For one show only.

Dr Rad 9:43
Well, I have two more details to tell you about that. Should I tell you about it?

Dr G 9:46
Yeah, go for it.

Dr Rad 9:46
Okay. So, as Livy alluded to, this is a great danger to the city, but it did not end in disaster. Because Jupiter was looking out for his people. That’s right. Jupiter made sure that the Romans did not suffer and the slaves did not succeed. Now, he then tells me that there is evidence gathered from some of the participants of this plot. So a couple of the slaves basically informed on what was happening. And it allowed everybody else to be arrested, rounded up, interrogated and punished

Dr G 10:24
Class traitors? No!

Dr Rad 10:26
Yeah, well, I Okay. This is where it gets really interesting. He actually says that the informants were given 10,000 pounds of bronze and their freedom.

Dr G 10:36
Wow.

Dr Rad 10:36
Yeah, which I actually, I didn’t think that the slaves would actually be treated that generously, I kind of thought that the Romans would see that as just something that they should do. Because you know, they owed it to their masters like maybe freedom, maybe manumission. Sure. But giving them Yeah, money, I wouldn’t have actually seen that coming. And Livy’s actually even a bit dismissive about the amount they’re given. He said, this passed for wealth back then. A pittance now.

Dr G 11:05
I think it’s one of those things where, presumably what the patricians are attempting to encourage here is for more slaves to come forward more often. Before these sorts of conspiracies really get off the ground.

Dr Rad 11:22
True. And I mean, you know, if this has anything to go by, it’s working for them.

Dr G 11:28
We’ve set the precedent. And now we’ll see how we go.

Dr Rad 11:31
And I feel like this is really intriguing. I mean, what a, what a treat for us, in a sense, because last episode, we got to talk about a woman, we haven’t been able to do that for a while. Now we’re able to talk about slavery, because we haven’t really talked about slaves very much.

Dr G 11:44
Yeah enslaved people don’t tend to get a lot of currency in our source material at this point in time, but the ancient world is really foundationally built on the exploitation of human labor. And there’s no doubt that it’s, well, maybe there is doubt, it seems reasonable, that the Roman population may even be outnumbered by enslaved people at this point in time.

Dr Rad 12:11
It’s, it’s so hard to figure out, isn’t it? Yeah. Because generally, we associate slavery and Rome, I think, in that period, when the Romans are truly taking part in these sort of large scale wars of conquest. Now, lately, even though we have seen the Romans taking part, in a lot of warfare, as we’ve talked about, with our expansion scores, it’s not really about adding territory, you know, of late, like, there’s been the odd time when they’ve added a bit of territory in like, the last 100 years that we’ve talked about. But generally, it’s been more about, you know, either putting those people in that place or defending Rome from an attack, it hasn’t really been about adding territory. So they’re not really, you know, expanding their control right now. certainly nowhere near on the scale of that they’re going to, in the well, I say, the not too distant future, but God knows, probably 10 years away.

Dr G 13:02
Hundreds and hundreds of years from now.

Dr Rad 13:06
And that’s I think, when we tend to think of them having slaves, because obviously, one of the easier ways to get slaves is to conquer a place and take the people that have managed to survive the conflict and make them your slave population.

Dr G 13:19
I think the important part here is, as you know, we’re dealing with things that are very close to home geographically. So the slaves that are currently in Rome at this point in time, these are all people from the surrounding areas, they’re all Italic peoples or Etruscans. And that’s just going to continue to expand as Rome continues its expansion. Yeah, it’s not sure bet for Roman at this point in time, that’s pretty clear.

Dr Rad 13:49
For sure. And I mean, the thing is, as well, you have to assume that the slave population is being fed through other avenues. I mean, it’s so hard to know, because we really don’t have much information on slavery in this time period. A lot of what we think we know about slavery comes from later time periods. But obviously, you could become enslaved through debt. We talked about that. That’s obviously one of the things concern the Romans themselves, in that, you know, debt bondage, and then also being sold into slavery because of debts is a huge year has been a huge issue at various points.

Dr G 14:20
Yeah, it’s a thing. And we also have seen them capturing out and about, and so there might be like prisoner exchange and things like that going on a lot. But there is also definitely enslavement of people when cities sort of stand up to Rome for too long. Rome gets jack of that they’ve raised the city and they take people, slaves.

Dr Rad 14:41
Yeah, we definitely had mentioned that. And then of course, we can’t rule out the possibility that even at this early time period, you have maybe parents giving up children that they can’t support. You know, if you have too many children, then you could potentially expose them and I don’t mean that You’re unnecessarily thinking that they’re going to die from exposure, but as in there might be left for people to take. And that’s one way of also getting slaves. I think it’s a less common way of doing it. But it is a possibility.

Dr G 15:13
Yeah, I don’t know that we’ve got good evidence in this time period.

Dr Rad 15:16
We definitely don’t. Yeah. But for later on, we do have some evidence of that happened. And so it’s like, well, maybe that’s what’s happening some of the time. Yeah, we don’t really know.

Dr G 15:26
Yeah. Bring out your children. Yeah.

Dr Rad 15:30
It’s just yeah

Dr G 15:31
Have they misbehave this week? Are you at your wit’s end? Get a great price on the open market?

Dr Rad 15:38
They’re free!

Dr G 15:40
Please, just take them!

Dr Rad 15:41
Just take them, I can’t handle it anymore.

Dr G 15:44
We are not suggesting by any means that you should enslave your children. Yeah. So Dionysius of Halicarnassus has a lot of parallels. I’ve got one fragment from Book 12, part 6, sections 5 to 7. He talks about three of the military tributes with consular power, being involved in the discovery of the plot.

Dr Rad 16:09
Oooo.

Dr G 16:09
Yes. So it seems that it comes to their attention – to the highest magistracy. And that it is being led by a commonwealth of slaves. So there’s some sort of like, you know, class unity going on?

Dr Rad 16:23
Yeah.

Dr G 16:24
Get together.

Dr Rad 16:25
The commonwealth of slaves.

Dr G 16:26
Yes. Get together. Look after your brothers and sisters. And this idea of planning to set fires across the city. Yeah, definite parallel with the aim ultimately of, as you say, seizing the Capitol. And if they can do that, that is a sense in which Rome falls at that point? Yes. Like they they are in a position of power. They’re on the biggest hill. It’s the defensive structure par excellence. Since the beginning of the Republic, it’s the one that everybody cares about. Yeah. So if you didn’t take the Capitol and the Citadel that’s on that hill, more power to you – Rome’s yours!

Dr Rad 17:05
Well, we have seen that before, not by slaves per se. But remember, when we had that there was an invasion…

Dr G 17:10
I was gonna say the Etruscans do the sneaky invasion, where they were like, we’re just gonna cross this little bridge here. And we’re on the Capitol.

Dr Rad 17:17
Yeah.

Dr G 17:18
And Rome fights back, and they managed to win the day in the end. But that was a while back now. And they haven’t really had this sort of problem for a while. So this would be, it would be amazing if the enslaved alliance could pull this off. They don’t seem to though.

Dr Rad 17:37
No, it’s sad.

Dr G 17:39
Now, the thing that struck me as really quite interesting about this, like, in addition, I’ve got this idea of there are two informants. And they win their freedom as a result of informing against their comrades. And they also receive 1000 denarii. From the public treasury. Oh, okay. So I don’t know how that figures with your figure. Ancient economy, it’s all over the shop.

Dr Rad 18:06
I was gonna say. Yeah, that’s,

Dr G 18:09
I have to do some calculations and think about that.

Dr Rad 18:11
Yeah, I think Livy’s given it to me in like the asses system, which is the old school system.

Dr G 18:19
Which is fair enough. But I don’t know what the equivalent and the type of denarii have not been specified. So, I mean, are we talking silver or?

Dr Rad 18:29
Like, it’s clearly far too much maths.

Dr G 18:32
Too much maths and too much money.

Dr Rad 18:34
Exactly. That’s gonna give it away.

Dr G 18:36
Yeah. So. But what happens is that the ringleaders are discovered through the informants. Yes. And they are then scourged and led away to be crucified.

Dr Rad 18:48
Oh, okay. So Livy just told me that they were arrested and punished. He doesn’t get specific with the punishments. But you know, what? Doesn’t surprise me about the crucifixion thing? Because that would be the kind of punishment I think you would expect.

Dr G 19:02
Well, this is where I went down a rabbit hole. Then I was like Roman crucifixion. What do we know? And when do we know it?

Dr Rad 19:08
Yeah. Like when did it start? I mean, it is something that you would use for people who were like traitors, right?

Dr G 19:12
Definitely. Yeah. And obviously for writers like Dionysius of Halicarnassus and Livy’s. The big example is Spartacus.

Dr Rad 19:20
I was gonna say, I mean, I didn’t want to be the one to bring it up. Not that he himself was crucified, I should say, that’s a Kirk Douglas thing. We don’t know what happens to Spartacus, he might have been crucified, but he might not have.

Dr G 19:37
No, but what we do have is the source from Appian. And Appian talks about what happens in the Spartacan revolt after the force is defeated, essentially by the Romans.

Dr Rad 19:49
Oh yeah, the survivors are crucified.

Dr G 19:51
Yeah, and apparently Crassus rounds up about 6000 survivors and you’ve got this horrific imagery of them being crucified along the road from Capua to Rome.

Dr Rad 20:02
Yeah, it would be bleak. I mean, I can’t I honestly can’t picture 6000 people on crosses,

Dr G 20:09
I don’t really want to. But mathematically, I wonder how far apart the crucifixion is have to be. Anyway, that is just a matter for mathematics, which I’m not going to delve into.

Dr Rad 20:19
I don’t know why you keep going down these mathematic paths. Why bring them up? I can’t solve them for you.

Dr G 20:24
I don’t like maths. I don’t do maths. It’s bad enough that we have years that have numbers. So crucifixion, the big sort of ticket example that our source material probably thinking about and having a heads is that Spartacan revolt. But that doesn’t tell us anything about when crucifixion might have begun in the Roman world, because clearly, it wasn’t a surprise, then.