Podcast - SURF MASTERY

www.surfmastery.com/podcast/029-barton-lynch

Streetboardz Kickstarter:

http://kck.st/2Hs3tC8

http://www.streetboardz.net/

https://www.hurley.com/us/en_us/c/hurley/surf-club

http://bartonlynch.com

www.surfmastery.com/podcast/028-barry-green

https://centeredsurfing.com

 http://www.kyle.surf/podcast/

www.surfmastery.com/podcast

http://www.equalize.com.au/

http://www.stealingfirebook.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1MHyyWsMeE

https://www.bravermantest.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

https://www.ted.com/talks/mihaly_csikszentmihalyi_on_flow

https://train.ombe.co/?via=surfmastery

Show Notes available here www.surfmastery.com/podcast/claytonnienaber2

For more info about the Macaronis trip:

http://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2017/10/11/macaronis-surf-coaching-clinic

https://www.macaronisresort.com/intermediate-surfer-training-clinic/

Clayton's website:

http://claytonsurf.com

www.surfmastery.com/podcast

www.kalebrock.com

Are you stuck on a plateau in your surfing? Find out why slowing down might be the fastest way to level up.

Many surfers struggle to break through to the next level because they skip the fundamentals. Whether you’re looking to smooth out your turns, learn wave reading, or unlock the secret to better shortboard performance, this episode with pro surfer turned coach Bud Freitas is packed with actionable insights to transform your surfing journey.

• Learn why starting on a longboard—or even a hybrid—can be a game-changer for your surfing fundamentals.

• Discover how to master wave reading and make better choices in the lineup.

• Get tips on finding the perfect board for your goals, whether you’re new to longboarding or looking to sharpen your shortboard skills.

Listen now to gain expert advice from Bud Freitas and take your surfing to the next level with proven techniques and insights!

Notable Quotes:

• “People just shoot for the stars and miss the basics. Learning to surf starts with understanding the board, the wave, and yourself.” – Bud Freitas

• “If you’re struggling on a shortboard, grab a longboard or an eight-foot hybrid. It’ll teach you control and how to find speed through your rail.” – Bud Freitas

• “Wave selection is personal. What I look for might not be what you’re looking for, but understanding the contrast between a mushy wave and a walled-up wave is key.” – Bud Freitas

• “Why not test your will? Take a steep drop on a log, and you’ll be super satisfied when you pull it off.” – Bud Freitas

• “Seeing the stoke in a beginner or even an older client when they nail their first big turn or wave—that’s what it’s all about.” – Bud Freitas

Bud Freitas grew up surfing in Santa Cruz county and has a vast amount of local knowledge in the Santa Cruz area to facilitate your santa cruz surf lessons from Surf School Santa Cruz. Bud spent every waking hour of his young life surfing and exploring the coast of Santa Cruz, and has 20+ years experience in the water surfing his butt off. His credentials on the WQS and other contests speak for itself, and if you want to watch Bud Freitas in action watch the video on the right side of this page, or check out the Photo Gallery and watch Bud ripping with your own eyes! Learn more about Bud Freitas the surfer and teacher

Show Notes:

https://surfschoolsantacruz.com
https://shop.firewiresurfboards.com/products/crossover-addvance
http://www.surfer.com/videos/brainwork-adam-replogle/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzoMcWyarS4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCBDXB9fbXU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1XNR8eyPMQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o1aCaDhuKw
https://shop.firewiresurfboards.com/collections/slater-designs/products/omni

Key Points

• Bud Freitas shares his experience of learning to surf by watching and studying the surfing style of local surfers like Adam Rapogol, focusing on their rail game and smooth turns.

• Bud emphasizes the importance of starting with a longboard or hybrid board to learn the fundamentals of surfing and understanding how a surfboard works before transitioning to a shortboard.

• Bud suggests that one of the biggest challenges for surfers is skipping the fundamental steps of learning on a longboard or hybrid board and jumping straight to a shortboard, leading to a lack of proper technique.

• Bud recommends that surfers struggling with their shortboard surfing should go back to riding a longboard or hybrid board to regain their flow and fundamentals before transitioning back to the shortboard.

• Bud discusses the importance of wave selection and reading waves, emphasizing that it's a personal preference and takes time and experience to develop.

• Bud shares his transition from being a professional surfer to becoming a surf coach, driven by his passion for helping others improve their surfing skills.

• Bud highlights the challenges faced by adult learners and the satisfaction he derives from seeing their progress and stoke, similar to coaching kids.

• Bud emphasizes the need for surfers to learn how to truly surf, rather than just jumping around on a surfboard, and recommends starting with a longboard or hybrid board to develop proper technique.

Outline

Introduction of Bud Freitas

• Bud Freitas is introduced as a surfer from Santa Cruz who spent time on the World Qualifying Series (WQS).

• He is described as an accomplished shortboard surfer passionate about both surfing and coaching.

• The host mentions that Bud has a website called Surf School Santa Cruz, which features additional information about him, including a three-minute video by Surfer Magazine showcasing his skills.

Early Surfing Experience

• Bud started surfing at a young age but initially stepped away after a frightening experience of being held down by a wave for an extended period.

• He returned to surfing around age 9-10, joining a group of friends who competed.

• His competitive nature drove rapid improvement, motivated by the desire to surpass their best friend.

• Bud began on a longboard for about a year before transitioning to a shortboard, which significantly boosted his progress.

Influence of Local Surfers

• Bud grew up near Pleasure Point, one of Santa Cruz's best waves, which exposed him to many top surfers in the area.

• He learned primarily by watching others, particularly admiring surfers like Chris Gallagher, Adam Repogle, and Kieran Horn.

• Bud specifically studied Adam Repogle's rail-focused surfing style, which heavily influenced his own approach to surfing.

Surfing Techniques and Fundamentals

• Bud emphasizes the importance of using the rail of the surfboard for speed and control, as opposed to hopping around on the board.

• He believes many surfers today miss crucial fundamentals by skipping the longboard stage and going straight to shortboards.

• Bud recommends starting with a longboard or larger board to learn how a surfboard works and develop a feel for using the rail.

• He suggests reverting to a larger board when struggling on a shortboard to regain fundamentals and flow.

• Bud advises that slowing down on a longer board teaches wave awareness, body positioning, and proper technique.

Teaching Wave Selection

• Bud discusses the challenges of teaching wave selection, as it is highly personal and varies between surfers.

• He looks for 'walled up' waves that offer speed and a good ride.

• When teaching wave selection, he sits with students in the lineup, showing them how different waves break and what to look for.

• Bud emphasizes that learning to read waves comes with experience and time spent in the water.

• He mentions that as surfers progress, they become more selective about which waves they choose, sometimes waiting long periods for the right one.

Professional Career and Coaching

• After a few years on the professional tour, Bud got burnt out and took a break from surfing.

• Later, he got a 'second wind' and returned to surfing, eventually partnering with Fox Racing.

• Bud started a coaching career with one student, which led to coaching more kids and eventually starting a surf school.

• He now works with a variety of clients, including adults looking to improve their surfing skills.

• Bud stresses the importance of starting with fundamentals, even for experienced surfers looking to improve.

• He often recommends using longer boards or hybrids to help surfers slow down and focus on technique.

• Bud believes many surfers today focus too much on aerial maneuvers at the expense of fundamental turning and wave riding skills.

• He suggests that even shortboarders can benefit from occasionally riding longer boards to improve overall surfing.

• For those looking to improve fundamentals, Bud recommends trying a traditional longboard or 'log' rather than a high-performance longboard.

• He suggests the 'Advance' as a good hybrid board for those transitioning or looking to work on fundamentals.

• Bud rides a variety of boards himself, including a 5'7" Sci-Fi, a 5'4" Omni, and a custom 5'11" round tail.

Influential Surf Movies

• Bud mentions several influential surf movies, including 'Good Times' by Taylor Steele, 'Progression Session' by Tony Roberts, and 'The Kill' by Tony Roberts.

Transcription

 You lay one down on rail and you come out of it and do it again, it doesn't get better than that. It really doesn't. Surfing will come a little bit easier and you'll actually find how a surfboard works.

Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surfers better.

You'll get on a surfboard and it'll feel like featherweight and you can just light it up.

Michael Frampton
Okay, welcome back to the show, faithful listeners. It has been a while, I know, but we've got today's episode and then I've got four more I'm currently editing. So there's plenty of content coming before the end of the year. A couple of housekeeping things before we get into this interview. Firstly, I am currently in Malibu in California at the moment. I am here until the end of October and I'm studying functional neurology and looking for case studies. The perfect case study is someone that has already seen everyone. You know, you've seen chiros, physios, physical therapists, massage, etc. You're still in pain, let me know. If there's anyone in Malibu or driving through Malibu that wants to go surfing somewhere, I'm very keen to find some good waves before the end of October as well. So get in touch on that note as well. If there's anyone out there interested in being a guest host of the podcast, please get in touch. If there is a friend of yours who you think would be a good interview and fits into what the show is about, send me an email. Let's chat about it. I'm more than to having guest hosts. I am organizing a Surfers Mastery trip. A few people have already expressed interest in this. It's going to be probably in Central America. I have found a couple of spots that would suit. If anyone's interested in coming, please get in touch. If anyone has any contacts down there as far as a good location, etc., or any advice, please get in touch as well. The surfers trip is going to be based around getting better at surfing. So we're going to have surf coaches, a couple of professional surfers, videographers, etc. So yeah, please get in touch if you're interested in participating or have any advice on that one. You can just send me an email as best either through the contact page at surfmastery.com or just mike at surfmastery.com. Today's interview is with Bud Freitas. Bud is a surfer from Santa Cruz. Bud spent some time on the WQS. Bud absolutely shreds on a shortboard. As you'll hear in this interview, Bud is a very passionate surfer. He loves surfing, but he's just as passionate about surf coaching. If you want to learn more about Bud, there are links in the show notes. And if you just go to his website, Surfer's School Santa Cruz, you'll see some more stuff on him, including a piece that Surfer's Magazine did on him. It's a nice little three-minute video that's got some footage of him absolutely ripping. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Bud.

Bud Freitas
Love it. It's so fun. Watching a kid go from, like you said, the word, you know, mastery, like when you go the next level and then they do their first turn or they do their first floater or just even catching the overhead wave, like just seeing the excitement in the kid's face to the next level is so insane. It's so fun. And the best is after they do something, they want to come up and just let you know, "My God, I did the biggest turn." And you're just like, "Yeah, you did. You did a great turn. It's a big old turn," you know, and it's like some little hack, but it's just like in their mind, they threw a big old Aki snap or something. That stuff's the best.

Michael Frampton
When did you see the steepest learning curve in your own surfing?

Bud Freitas
I'm going to say when I first started, I got, you know, I got the bug, I was super into it. And then I kind of stepped away after that because I got worked by a wave and held down for a super long time. So that kind of spooked me. And then I came back at it. And then from, like, I'd say nine and ten is where I really jumped into it. And then I had friends that joined me, a group of friends that surfed, and we started competing. And what was happening is I wasn't winning and I wasn't doing well in the contest. I was, like, just chugging along and just watching them get in first place or whatever, like one of my best friends. That's when it just turned it on for me. And it just drove me to, like, the next level. And I would not stop. I was in the water all day long, just trying to beat my best friend is what my goal was. And it got to the point where I surpassed him and I was on the skid, the brunt. As a kid, I was winning a bunch of contests. And I don't know if it ever really stopped. I mean, I'm a competitive person, but I think as a whole, as surfing, I think once I started getting the feel for surfing—like I started on longboard first, played with that for a couple, like a year or so, and then I graduated to shortboard—that's when I would say that's when I started really feeling the bug and went on to the next two.

Michael Frampton
So you were inspired by people that were better than you competitively, and you were driven from that. You had a competitive drive behind it as well?

Bud Freitas
Yeah, I think I'm competitive no matter what it is. I'm just that person. But it's funny because I grew up on Pleasure Point, which is one of the best waves in Santa Cruz. You know, there's two main breaks. There's one at Steamer Lane, one at Pleasure Point, and my house is two houses from the point. Like it's one of the closest houses can be. And I was just surrounded by good surfing too. It was always fun because, like, the whole neighborhood and there's all the top surfers were in that neighborhood and there are some went around there, like one of the famous ones, Chris Gallagher, Adam Rapogo, Kieran Horn, and that whole group in front of me. So that was another cool thing because they'd be parking on my street and I was just like the girl that had the biggest stoke just when they pull up and, like, walk down with them to go surf. But, like, watching them surf is kind of what drove me to become better because, like, it taught me, like, the rail game, I think, is what it came from. If you think of all those guys, they're all rail surfers. I can maybe do an air if I try, but I can't really get my ass out of the water. Like, I'm not that guy. So that was another thing too, is being surrounded by good surfing, like, all the time. There's always someone out there surfing good, pushing it. So it was fun.

Michael Frampton
So is that how you learned? Just by watching others?

Bud Freitas
By watching others, yeah. And I was never really coached and that's what kind of bummed me out because when I got to the next level, I was starting to go down south and travel, and by then it was like my teens, like younger teenage, and a lot of those guys had coaches or had some kind of group or someone had coaching with it. And it was never really offered up here until my, like, let's say 16, 17, is when Chris Gallagher started putting together, like, a coaching team up here and he was helping the younger groups. And that's when it really started to kick in and kind of moving forward to the next level. But I was—that was my problem. I didn't take it that serious. I thought it was kind of fun to, like, go to these workouts and stuff, but I was never really, like, super hard on because I figured I could just do it myself. I'm kind of that guy, like, I could watch and learn. So that's, like, one of the downfalls I think for me was not pushing it to the next level. With the training and stuff, I was more into just surfing and finding my way that way. I learn by visual more than I do anything else. Like, watching someone surf, I can pick up on it. I find it a little bit easier for me.

Michael Frampton
Most surfers will watch the best surfers at their local break and, you know, they'll watch them and they'll try and learn from them. But most people can't integrate what they see into their own surfing. Was there a way that you looked at those surfers or the way that you thought about the way they surfed that separated you from other people that were kind of thinking along the same lines? Why were you successful in just watching others and other people weren't? Do you know why?

Bud Freitas
I don't know, that's a great question. I mean, I think it's just wanting to fall suit with those guys. Adam Rapogol, for instance, is like my all-time favorite surfer, and he literally took me out for the first time as a kid. I have a picture with him, it's like funny, I was a tiny little dude. I think just him being around me and being an idol for the Santa Cruz kids, and I think I just wanted to be him, so I literally studied his surfing up and down. When he surfs, it was like all my attention was to Adam and how he used the rail and how he maneuvered the board. It's hard to find a guy that doesn't jump around on a surfboard. Like Taylor Knox, he doesn't jump around, he uses all rail. Adam Rapogol, all rail. That is surfing to me when you're finding speed through your rail and not having to hop around. And that's what's fun watching them surf or watching Adam surf growing up, because it's a point break and you can watch him just use a rail, you know, front hand just all the way through, and it was just like I think that just soaked in and that's what I wanted, so I was just dead set on being that kind of surfer. And that's what drove me to become what I am—or, I mean, the kind of surfing I chose to be. I like to use the rail a lot, that's definitely what I perceive.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I fall into the same category. I think I'd rather do a full-on rail turn than anything else.

Bud Freitas
It's so good. I mean, doing a big air, I'm not going to do a huge air, but like you lay one down on rail and you come out of it and do it again, it doesn't get better than that. Because you're just putting all your oomph into it and you're just laying it on rail, and you're finding your board is like the best feeling.

Michael Frampton
So when you say you were studying the surfers, your favorite surfers and how they surf on rail, what exactly do you mean by that? Were you watching footage of them?

Bud Freitas
So I was like, now I think of all of us as friends, we'd have surfers movies at my house 24-7. But yet alone, I could literally walk 30 steps and then sit on the rail, which is right on the cliff, and it looks straight at the point break, and I could just watch them surf the whole time. And that would take time, so I just watched this whole session. Best thing ever, it was so cool because there'd be times where Kieran Horn, Chris Gallagher, Adam Rapogol—they'd all be out there shredding. It was just like more of a movie to us than anything. It was just like entertainment, we're just watching, it was so fun. All the kids up there were just in awe watching this.

Michael Frampton
So if you get a client coming to you saying, I really want to smooth out my surfing and use my rail more—I think most people fall in the opposite category. Like you said, they're kind of hopping around trying to pump for speed, they want to throw the tail. How do you ease them into that new way of thinking for surfing on rail?

Bud Freitas
So I think one of the biggest things missed in surfing now is people just jump straight to a shortboard, or they just bypass the biggest part of surfing, which I think you got to learn the fundamentals. And if you grab a longboard, if you learn from a longboard and kind of make your steps into surfing, I think you're going to find surfing will come a little bit easier and you'll actually find how a surfboard works. Because you're not going to get on a longboard and jump around. If you want to pick up speed on a longboard, you don't just jump and try and get speed. You're going to have to hold the rail and you're going to make that section. And I think that's a lot of things that's missing in today's age of surfing. People just see the stuff on TV and they're like, I want to go on movies and I want to surf like that guy. I think you got to take the time and really learn how to ride a surfboard. And you jump on a nine-foot board, that's a lot of board. And even say, 10-footer, you got to keep that thing from nose diving or just keep that thing on rail—set a rail on those things. It's pretty hard. And I think a lot of people miss that step in surfing. So that's one of the things I always encourage. Like, when I was having bad times on shortboards and I was struggling with my surfing when I was doing contests and stuff, I learned this from Adam Rapogol actually. He's like, dude, if you're struggling on a shortboard, go get this—it was a seven-foot board I had bought for my little sister. It was like a hybrid thing. And I'd go out there and I'd cruise and I'd find my rail, I'd find my surfing again, and I'd jump back on my shortboard and it would put all my fundamentals back into it. And I'd be able to use it. Once I use it, I'd be able to find my groove again. I think that's a hard thing. It's like, even on shortboards, you just get in a weird funk, and sometimes you need to step back, ride a little bit bigger board, get a little flow going, and then you jump on your shortboard and you can just light it up.

Michael Frampton
Do you get much resistance when you suggest longboarding to people?

Bud Freitas
No, but the younger kids, yes, because they're more embarrassed of it. I think as an adult, I think a lot of them are like, okay, yeah, I'll try. Because you're going to get some older guys that are like, I want to move down to a shortboard. I'm like, how about you figure out this longboard, and then we'll move to a hybrid, and then hybrid down. And I think a lot of them, they take it into it, but I think the kids are going to have a harder time because they're going to see their friends riding shortboards and they don't want to be the odd duck out. So I think that's the challenge. But I would recommend to any kid that is pursuing a surfing career or competitive surfing, I would highly recommend them starting to just longboard once in a while, or even like when you have those flaws, when you have those moments where you're just not feeling it, get on a longboard and you'll learn and you'll find it again.

Michael Frampton
What exactly are you forced to do on a longer board that you don't have to do on a shortboard?

Bud Freitas
You have to slow it down. Everything slows down and you have to pay attention to what you're doing. You know, like when you're paddling in a wave, you don't get to just jump up. You got to look at where the nose is going. So you get up, hold the nose, you pull a big bottom turn, you hold it, then you set your line, and that's all rail. Then you set a line, you're jamming. You want to do a cutback, you're not just going to wrap it, you're going to slow it down and you're going to use your body to turn that board because it's a big board. And if you're doing that on a longboard, you'll get on a shortboard and it'll feel like featherweight and you can just light it up.

Michael Frampton
So if someone wants to learn how to surf a shortboard faster, they need to jump on a longboard and slow things down first?

Bud Freitas
I just feel like it will just—mentally, it just puts you in the next—because when you get on that board, like I said, it's going to feel so light and you'll start jamming with it because you get to move the board around. So you're going to be able to speed. You want to do as before, like you get on longboard, you want to start jamming. It's not like that. You're going to have to kind of, like, find it. You're going to have to groove with it. And then you go to a shortboard, you can jam.

Michael Frampton
So I guess when you slow things down, it really teaches you more about, like, wave awareness and body awareness as well?

Bud Freitas
That's another point too. A lot of people come to me and ask me, I want to know how to read waves. I want to know what I'm looking for. That's like a tough one because my—like what I choose in a wave or what I'm looking for in waves can be completely different. Like what you look—or the way you see a wave. So that's always been a challenge for me because people are like, I want to know where to go. I'm like, you could always use point of contact, like on the beach, like, here's the lineup. You could use that. But I think another thing is people reading waves. Like I'm looking for a walled-up wave, I'm sure you are too. But like a lot of those people don't understand what that means or what that is. That's an interesting one too is wave selection. Like, I want a walled one so I can get going on the thing. I don't want some little mush bowl. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
I saw you on a longboard and you had a grom on the front of the longboard as well. Is that a strategy you use for teaching?

Bud Freitas
No, the little guy was scared. And that one, he was super scared to be by himself. And then I'm like, here, I'll just take you on this big old stand up. Went out there and he was getting psyched. He got so stoked. He like took his fear away because he was right next to me, holding me. And it's funny because he kept—he'd stand up and look back and I'm going to hold my hand. And I'm like, nope, you can't do that. You know, and then it grew onto it. And now the kid can surf too. His name's Bob. Good little surfer.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. That would have been a big learning curve for him, you know, getting over that straight away.

Michael Frampton
Fear, like.

Bud Freitas
Yeah. That's a tough one. A lot of kids are—it's just the ocean in general. It's a scary place no matter what it is. And I'm so—that's something I always preach to people. Like, you don't know what the ocean's going to do to you. You don't know what it's going to serve you. A wave—I've had like a two-foot wave just beat me down. And I'm just like, how does that work? I don't understand that. And then you can take a 10-footer and the thing just rolls right over you. So just, it's interesting how the ocean works. And I always make sure whoever I'm teaching is like, pay attention to that stuff.

Michael Frampton
So when people ask you about reading waves, what do you usually say to them?

Bud Freitas
That's a tough one. Just because, like I said, it's just like what you choose. Like, your wave selection is way different than mine's going to be. Everyone's like assuming they're just going to paddle out and be like, you're going to tell me what kind of wave to go for, right? Like, no, you're going to have to look at it. You're going to have to find the wave. And it's funny because the way I look at a wave, like I said, is so much different than the way you look at a wave. Ideally, what I do when I take them out there is I sit next to them and I kind of just show them how the lineup looks or how it works and how the different sections work. So it kind of gives them positioning. And then from there, it's like, even watching those sets come in, they have troubles. They like ask me, how do you know when they're coming? I'm like, that's another thing. You're just going to have to look on the horizon. You're going to find it coming. And once you get to that point, I think once they ride a few waves, then they kind of get an idea because they get a feel for what the waves can offer. For instance, I always work at the point. So it's a real—it's a right-hand point. Some waves are going to be super soft. Some are going to have a wall. So I can kind of fill it out for them. So you can see one's coming in. It'll be a nice walled-up wave. And I'll let them know like, here, this one's going to have a wall to it. They'll ride it. "That was a killer one, that got so much speed," blah. And then you put them on like a mushy one. And they're, "That one wasn't that good." And you're like, okay, now you can like kind of justify what this has to offer and this one has to offer. You're looking down the line, what are you going to find? So I think that's kind of a tough one though. I think it just comes with age. I think over time with surfing, it's just more you surf and more you're in the water, you're going to see it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Well, that's a good strategy. You just said this—show them the contrast between a wally, fast wave and a slow, fat wave. You know, you could cue them on what they saw before the wave, etc., and it might spark them to—I guess a part of it is really looking for the detail, isn't it?

Bud Freitas
For sure. That's funny because, like I said, I'm looking for a walled-up wave. I think it just comes with taste too. Like, over time, like you've been surfing for X amount of years and you've seen over the time, like you know what you want, you know what you're looking for. Like, especially when there's a nice ledge you want. Like, say you're looking for some barrels, you know when it's coming, it's doubling up, that's the one I want. And then you compare that to a big old mush ball. You're like, this sucks. You know, this isn't what I want. And like, I think too, you kind of get jaded as you get to the next level too with surfing is that wave choice is like, I'll sit on the lineup for 45 minutes and I'll go on a wave because I know what I'm looking for. There's a wave where I live, it's called Sewer Peak. And when we get South swells, it's a nice big wedge, but the sets in South swells, it'll take 45 minutes. It's a super long wall and everyone's like—they'll be going for everything. And I'll just sit there like, how do you do that? How do you just wait? I'm like, I know what I want. I know what I'm going to get. And I'll just get one and get barreled across the whole thing. And I'm like, that's what I waited for. That's what I want. I think over time too, with people learning to read a wave, that's the challenge too. Because you'll see, like, when someone's learning, they'll go on anything—everything that's coming their way—and they'll just take off because they're like the super stoked, happy surfers. And so I think, like I said, I think just over time, you just—you get in the rhythm and you just know what you want.

Michael Frampton
Well, you make a good point there, is that you can't really choose the right wave if you don't know the type of wave you're looking for.

Bud Freitas
Right. So you've—

Michael Frampton
Got to know what you want to do with your surfing and look for the waves that are going to help you to do that.

Bud Freitas
But it's so—but that's the thing though. You'll sit there for 45 minutes because you think you're going to get the best one and you never get it. You're like, dude. And all these little ones are going by and you're like, no, I'm waiting. I'm waiting. I'm waiting. And then finally one, an hour or something. But I think that's just me being salty. That's what it is.

Michael Frampton
So what inspired you to move from being a pro to being a coach?

Bud Freitas
I did the tour for a couple of years, had okay success with the first couple of years. And then I got burnt out. Just, I think at the time in my life I wasn't really ready for it. I think I was young and still wanted to go do things like party and do all that fun stuff with girls, blah. And it kind of threw me out. And then I took a couple of years off from surfing completely, from like 25 to 26. I just like stepped away. I surfed, but I wasn't really driven to do it as hard as I was because I kind of got burnt from it. And then I got like a second wind and I just started, I got back into it. I like did this film interview and that kind of like sparked it again. It's online. It's one I did, and I'm doing an interview, and that's like—I went and got a job, stepped away from surfing that way. Like, I didn't—wasn't getting paid, so I was like, I'm going to go get a job. Tried it out for a year. It was overworking. So I was like, I'm going to get back into the surfing thing and try and get another go. And at the time it was good timing because I got linked up with Fox Racing, which—they were moving heavily into surfing. And that kind of sparked me going into it. And so I had a good start to that with it, with them, the first year with them. And then as it was moving on, I didn't know which way I was going to go surfing. It was a new contest or just free surf and started free surfing. And then I decided I'm going to start a surfers school with coaching. And I started with one kid, Matthew Reagan. And then from there I picked up a few more other kids, but after using or working with Matthew is like when it really moved forward. And I was like, okay, this is something I want to do. And I want to help these guys out, you know, these kids, because when their parents are coming to me, they're like, I don't know what to do. You know, I don't really surf, so whatever you can have. So then I started having like three or four kids a week, giving them lessons after school. So it's pretty fun because that's what moved it on. And then I started the surfing school, so forth. It just kept going.

Michael Frampton
Do you have many older clients in their thirties, sort of intermediate surfers wanting to?

Bud Freitas
I do. And you know what's funny is I have, like you said, I get these emails and they're always these questions. "Hey, man, I've been surfing for X amount of time. I'm trying to get to the next level, but I don't know how to do this." Or, "Can you help me get to this?" Or, you know, there's all these little questions and all those ones we've touched base on. "I want to ride a shortboard. I want to learn how to read the waves better." There's like all these things. And I get a lot of recurring clients, and they usually come from San Francisco or around the city area, it seems like, a lot of them. But I have one of them, Larry Sullivan, which he's come down since the beginning. And he's surfed years prior and like took a big break. And he came to me and he goes, "Hey, I want to learn how to surf again," or, "I want you to help me get to the next level." And so he still comes down, and he comes down quite often. And those reoccurring ones are fun because, being an adult and like me being a little bit younger than these guys and like teaching them, it kind of cracks me up because they're listening to me. And like, I don't know, just personally, like it always seems like you learn a lot more from your elders, but it's fun because they get the psych, and it's cool because I can paddle out with them. And it's like having a kid with me, but they're a grown adult, and I'm like getting able to be in the water and coach them. And it's just classic because you'll see the same stoke that you see on a kid on a grown adult. It's hilarious. Like, for instance, I have this one client, she lived in Napa Valley, which was about two hours, and she'd drive down every Friday to go surfing with me. She'd been surfing for 20 years and she was from Malibu and fell out of it because she moved inland in Napa. And she'd come down every Friday and we'd go out there and shred and help her get into waves because she was riding a shortboard and she got the bug. And she came down on like a hybrid at first. I ended up getting her on a shortboard and she just went on her way. It was rad.

Michael Frampton
What do you see as the biggest obstacle hindering people's surfing capabilities?

Bud Freitas
I think it's people just shooting for the stars. You know what I mean? I think people—you see this stuff online or you see videos of it, and I think people just assume that you can get on the surfboard and get to that level. And I think, like I said, going back to the fundamentals, I think that takes a big chunk of surfing out for people. They miss that step of their surfing. So I think the hardest or the biggest challenge for people right now is just—I would say it like this: they need to learn how to surf. And I think if it's starting from scratch and starting from the beginning up again, it's going to help a lot of people in the long run. And it's going to take a lot of those people out in the lineup thinking they rip, and really they're just jumping around on the surfboard. And I think just riding a longboard—and even, I mean, it doesn't have to be a longboard, it could be an eight-foot hybrid or whatever—I think that will help a lot of people in the long run. One, it'll help understand a wave better by paddling into it and, you know, controlling a board. Two, just riding a wave on a board that size is a lot harder than it is on a shortboard. I think just being able to maneuver a board like that and then it gets you to that next level. And I just—one thing I wish a lot of the kids—like, if you look at the kids nowadays, they can punt huge airs, but yet they can't do a turn. You know what I mean? Which baffles me, it just sucks because it takes away from surfing. Now it's like, I see these kids, they rip. I'm not going to say they don't rip, but they'll miss 10 big sections just to do one air. You're like, what happened to the rest of the wave? That air was amazing, but yet to get there, all you did was just widen your stance and hop all the way down this line.

Michael Frampton
I've never done much longboarding, but I feel inspired to buy a longboard now.

Bud Freitas
Do. Go get it.

Michael Frampton
It makes sense.

Bud Freitas
No, it totally does. But instead of getting a longboard, get like a hybrid or something for you, since even that will slow you down a bit. Like, grab an eight-foot hybrid or seven-six hybrid, mess around with that thing for a minute, and you'll get on your shortboard and you'll look at it so different.

Michael Frampton
Is there any particular longboarders who you would recommend people watch to learn from?

Bud Freitas
CJ Nelson is a good one. He's from Santa Cruz. He's a great longboarder. Wingnut's another great longboarder. Taylor Jensen can longboard really well. Alex Knost is a great example of that surfing ability. He can ride a longboard like no one else, and he could rip on a shortboard.

Michael Frampton
Do you still do a bit of longboarding?

Bud Freitas
I do when it's small and if I'm riding like the foam boards and stuff. I mean, I'll ride this—I have this thing called the Creeper. It's like this little wide, like six-four, like it's a hog, and it's like a big old, like, hybrid thing, and I'll jam on that thing when I'm feeling it. It's super fun. It's like a quad fish. Like, it's pretty good size. I mean, it's pretty much stand up on the thing floating. It's a big old thing. You can jam on the thing. It's so fun.

Michael Frampton
So there's probably a lot of shortboarders listening that might be inspired to go out and get a longboard and start trying. What's some advice on, first of all, what type of longboard are we looking for?

Bud Freitas
Just get a big old hog, like one of those big old nose-riding longboards. Not a high-performance longboard. Just get a big old log. Like one of those ones where you look at it like, "That thing is a mess." Those are what's going to—that's what's going to teach you how to ride a board. I mean, there's the high-performance ones, got rocker, and it's kind of sharper rails and stuff. No, go get like one of the big old logs, like their logs—10-foot log—and just see what you can do with it.

Michael Frampton
What are the limitations of that sort of board? I mean, are there certain types of wave you just wouldn't even think about trying to go out in?

Bud Freitas
Nah, why not? Why don't you go test your will with it? See if you can make a drop on one of those longboards. Those guys used to do it at Waimea. They used to ride those literally logs at Waimea. You know what I mean? If they can do it, you should be able to do it. Take a steep drop on one of those and, boy, you'll be super satisfied.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Obviously, I mean, if someone's literally going out for the first, say, month on a log.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And then all of a sudden their local break turns on and it's six to eight foot barreling. Is it dangerous to take a log out?

Bud Freitas
I would say so. Yeah. Especially like that. If it's like the bottom, I wouldn't do it. But in the meantime, when you're riding all the smaller days, I'm sure there's softer waves wherever you live, unless you live at like, I don't know, only beach break. But there's usually a soft wave you can go ride a longboard at. And I think that's what you'll find. Like, I'm like, there's—it's just a real soft wave. It's called 38th where I live. And that's a great place where I could go ride a longboard because it just rolls. It's kind of like a Malibu-style wave, and it just rolls. So that's like a good way to do it. But if it gets bigger, then obviously I would just jump on the shortboard. But I think in between all that, you can ride a longboard and get a feel for it.

Michael Frampton
What about at beach breaks?

Bud Freitas
That's what I was getting at. I was like, that's a tough one because longboards at beach breaks are no fun. I'm kind of spoiled because I live on a point break. So it's like—that's the difference. And I'm sure you could find some kind of soft, like, Doheny wave where it's just kind of rolling sandbar somewhere. If you're not, then you're going to be riding a hybrid or something like that. So it'll be a less board but still have enough to you where you have to work for it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's a good point. What's an example of a good hybrid for such a thing?

Bud Freitas
The Advance is a great one. The Advance is a perfect hybrid because it's got the volume and it's got the shape of—almost like it's got a nice swallowtail to it. But it's a beefy board. But you could still turn it, and you can still put it on rail. It's not like it's going to limit you just going straight. You're going to be able to turn the board even at 7'2", 7'6". You'll still be able to turn the thing. I think that's a great board even for a man like my size. I weigh, let's say, 170. I could still maneuver a 7'2". Anything over, like, 35 liters.

Michael Frampton
Okay, so I'm guessing you're on about 26, 27 liters on your shortboard. So you're adding another almost 10 liters to that.

Bud Freitas
When I hold it, I'm like, I could stand up to this thing no problem. But like, that's what's fun, because then you paddle into it, you get into it easy, and you start cruising and having fun. And like, just, like, surfing. That's what you're doing. You're surfing.

Michael Frampton
Cool. What are you riding at the moment?

Bud Freitas
I got a 5'7" Sci-Fi. I have a 5'4" Omni. I have—what else do I have? And then I have a custom, which is a round tail. It's like a thumbtail. It's 5'11", 26 liters, Future Fins. Goes off.

Michael Frampton
What's your favorite surfers movie?

Bud Freitas
Damn, that's a tough one. My favorite surf movie—Good Times, Taylor Steele. That was like that one. And then Tony Roberts movies were Progression Session. That was a game changer for me because all the Santa Cruz—The Kill—that was another good one. Yeah, there's pretty much all Tony Roberts movies were like the go-to's. But Taylor Steele too at that time was like changing the game.

Michael Frampton
Cool, man. Thank you so much for your time. Where can people find you online or on social media?

Bud Freitas
They could find me on my surfers school website, surfschoolsantacruz.com. They can find me on Instagram at Buddy Littles. And then I have a Facebook, just Bud Freitas. Awesome.

Michael Frampton
All right, Bud. Thank you so much for your time.

Bud Freitas
Right on, man. I appreciate it. Thanks.

Michael Frampton
For tuning in to the Surfers Mastery Podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surfers Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time, keep surfing.

23 Bud Freitas - Surf Coach & Shredder

https://chixsurfschool.com.au

Available On All Platforms:

What if understanding the science behind waves could help you catch the best waves every time? In this episode, surf forecaster Ben Macartney reveals the secrets of predicting and scoring perfect surf conditions.

From great circle paths to local bathymetry, every wave you ride is shaped by a complex set of factors. Whether you're planning your next surf trip or mastering your local break, Ben's expert insights will help you connect the dots between surf forecasts and real-world conditions.

• Learn how to analyze swell charts beyond the basics to uncover hidden gems at your favorite spots.

• Discover why understanding wind direction, period, and secondary swells is critical for predicting surf quality.

• Gain exclusive tips on using live wind feeds and buoy data to refine your surf planning.

Hit play and unlock the forecasting tools and techniques you need to take your surfing to the next level.

Ben has been the Head forecaster at Coastalwatch for ten years. In this episode, he explains how waves are made, what he looks for when making surf predictions, dispels some common misbeliefs about reading synoptic charts, describes some of the nuances of swells and most importantly educates us on how to find the best waves. We also talk about how secondary and tertiary swells affect the primary swell and your local break. If you have never looked at a synoptic chart, isobar map, satellite image etc, then this episode may be a little confusing (unless you are in front of google & can look up the referenced images). Below are some links to some introductory tutorials that will get you up to speed pretty quickly. Most of the references are based on Australian, and Indonesian surf.  

Notable Quotes:

1. "Waves travel along great circle paths, following the curvature of the earth, which is why storms far below Australia can still send swells to the East Coast."

2. "The difference between a great session and an average one often comes down to understanding subtle shifts in swell direction, period, and local wind conditions."

3. "Waves thin as they spread across vast distances, but their power remains—it’s how a storm thousands of miles away can still produce clean surf."

4. "Keep trying, keep exploring, and keep learning. The more you observe and experiment, the more you’ll score."

5. "Owen Wright’s top-to-bottom surfing is a masterclass in precision and power—it’s clean, critical, and inspiring to watch."

Show Notes:
Surf Forecasting Workshop April 2017 - http://www.coastalwatch.com/surfing/21138/victoria-find-out-when-your-local-will-fire
Surf Forecast Glossary - http://www.coastalwatch.com/surfing/13106/surf-forecast-glossary
Surf Forecasting Tutorial - http://www.coastalwatch.com/surfing/forecasting-tutorials
Great Circles - http://www.coastalwatch.com/surfing/177/forecasting-tutorial-great-circles

Tropical Cyclone Winston

East Coast Low

A long stretch of fetch pointing to Indo

Thundercloud Swell June 2012

NOAA - http://www.noaa.gov/
http://www.bom.gov.au/
Coastalwatch Forecast - http://www.coastalwatch.com/surf-forecasts

Key Points

• Waves are primarily generated by wind at the sea surface, not by tides or currents.

• The key factors for wave growth are the strength, length, and duration of the wind fetch.

• Storm systems with a combination of low and high pressure systems generate the strongest wind fetches for wave growth.

• The orientation and movement of the storm system relative to the coast affects the swell direction and size.

• Secondary swells and wind swells can interact with the primary swell, affecting wave quality.

• Local bathymetry and geography influence how swells refract and focus at specific surf breaks.

• Swells follow great circle paths due to the Earth's curvature, allowing remote swells to reach distant coastlines.

• Atmospheric pressure changes can affect sea levels, impacting surf conditions at reef breaks and slabs.

• Observing and understanding local swell patterns is crucial for predicting surf conditions accurately.

Outline

Wave Generation by Wind

• Waves are primarily generated by wind at the sea surface, not by tides or currents.

• The interaction between low and high pressure systems creates wind gradients that generate waves.

• While low pressure systems (cyclones) are often associated with strong winds, high pressure systems play an equally important role in wave generation.

• The pressure gradient between high and low systems is what drives wind formation.

Fetch Concept in Wave Formation

• A fetch is a key concept in wave formation, defined as the length of water over which wind blows in one direction for a given time at a given speed.

• Three critical parameters of a fetch are wind speed, size (length) of the fetch, and duration.

• The constancy of wind direction and speed over time compounds wave growth.

Role of Tropical Cyclones in Swell Generation

• Tropical cyclones alone often don't generate significant swell due to their small geographical area.

• It is the interaction between cyclones and high pressure systems that creates broad, stable wind belts capable of generating substantial swell.

• For example, Tropical Cyclone Winston in 2016 generated significant swell not from its core winds, but from a broader area of easterly winds set up between the cyclone and a high pressure system.

High Pressure Systems and Swell Generation

• The stability and negligible movement of high pressure systems can be the primary driver of swell.

• This phenomenon was seen in recent East Coast events where a big high pressure system with a deep trough below generated significant swell without a stereotypical rotating low pressure system.

Swell Direction Determination

• Swells spread radially from their source, but the main swell direction is determined by the most consistent stretch of wind around a weather system.

• The orientation of high and low pressure systems determines the alignment of the fetch and the resulting swell direction.

Importance of Wave Period in Swell Propagation

• Wave period is a crucial factor in swell propagation.

• Higher wind speeds generate higher wave periods, allowing swell to travel and radiate more effectively across ocean basins.

• Wind swells with shorter periods dissipate quickly and are more susceptible to headwinds and currents.

Influence of Fetch Orientation and Low Pressure Movement on Swell

• The orientation of the fetch to the coast, distance from the coast, and movement of the low pressure system all influence swell generation and propagation.

• A low pressure system moving away from the coast generates less swell than one moving towards the coast, as the swell-producing winds have less time to act on the sea surface.

Captured Fetch Phenomenon

• A 'captured fetch' occurs when the strongest winds move in the same direction and at the same speed as the waves being produced.

• This results in phenomenal wave growth over short periods.

Calculating Wave Speed

• Wave speed can be calculated by multiplying the wave period by 1.5.

• For example, a 20-second period swell travels at 30 knots in deep water.

• This relationship allows forecasters to estimate swell arrival times by measuring distances on maps and dividing by the calculated speed.

Factors Determining Wave Period

• Wind speed, fetch length, and duration all contribute to determining wave period.

• Strong winds (40-60 knots) blowing for 24-48 hours can generate a big, long-period swell.

• However, lower strength winds (35 knots) blowing for several days can also produce high-period swells, albeit not as high as stronger winds.

Interaction of Multiple Swells

• Multiple swells often interact, creating complex sea states.

• Primary swells may be accompanied by secondary or tertiary swells, which can significantly affect wave quality and surfing conditions.

• For example, a clean, long-period ground swell may be disrupted by shorter-period wind swells, creating less ideal surfing conditions.

Impact of Multiple Swells on Different Breaks

• Beach breaks may sometimes benefit from multiple swell interactions, creating peaky conditions with numerous take-off spots.

• In contrast, point breaks or reef breaks may become less favorable due to these interactions.

Role of Local Geography and Bathymetry

• Local geography and bathymetry play crucial roles in how swells interact with coastlines.

• Factors such as headlands, bays, and offshore trenches can focus or disperse swell energy, creating unique conditions at different spots along a coastline.

Effect of Local Winds on Surf Conditions

• Local wind effects can significantly alter surf conditions.

• Coastal geography can create pockets of offshore or variable winds in certain areas, even when the prevailing wind is onshore.

• For example, nor-northeasterly winds can become cross-offshore at Tamarama due to the headland's effect.

Atmospheric Pressure and Sea Level

• Atmospheric pressure affects sea level, with low pressure systems allowing the ocean to expand and creating higher than normal sea levels.

• This effect can be particularly noticeable during East Coast low pressure systems.

Seasonal Differences in Breaks

• Some breaks in South Australia are known as 'winter breaks' or 'summer breaks' due to the seasonal differences in atmospheric pressure and resulting sea levels.

Great Circle Paths and Swell Directions

• Swells follow the curvature of the Earth along great circle paths, which can lead to counterintuitive swell directions over long distances.

• For example, westerly winds in the South Atlantic can generate swells that reach Indonesia after traveling over 6,000 nautical miles.

Long-Range Swell Forecasting

• The East Coast of Australia can receive ground swells from remote areas southeast of New Zealand due to these great circle paths.

• Understanding these paths is crucial for accurate long-range swell forecasting.

Swell Attenuation Over Distances

• Swell attenuation occurs as waves spread out over vast distances, thinning the energy and reducing wave heights.

• However, long-period swells can still travel enormous distances with minimal energy loss in deep water.

Consistent Methodology for Analyzing Forecast Data

• Develop a consistent methodology for analyzing forecast data, sticking to the same data sets and tools for comparison over time.

• This approach builds confidence in interpreting forecast information.

Significance of Secondary and Tertiary Swells

• Pay attention to secondary and tertiary swells, not just the primary swell, as these can significantly affect wave quality and surfing conditions.

Building Knowledge Base Through Observation

• Observe actual conditions and compare them to forecasts to build a knowledge base of how different swell and wind combinations affect local breaks.

Utilizing Tools for Comprehensive Understanding

• Utilize tools like wave trackers, detailed written forecasts, and live cameras to get a comprehensive understanding of current and upcoming conditions.

Exploring Different Spots Based on Conditions

• Be prepared to explore different spots, as conditions can vary significantly even over short distances due to local effects and swell interactions.

Managing Expectations in Surf Forecasting

• Manage expectations by understanding the complexities of swell generation and propagation.

• Recognize that many factors contribute to actual surf conditions beyond simple swell height and period predictions.

Transcription

It's a beautiful thing about wave growth. It can be described mathematically. 

Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surf better. 

In the inner, you've got all this chaos happening. There's waves bouncing around everywhere.

Michael Frampton
My guest for this episode is surf forecaster McCartney. Is a surfer from Bondi Beach in Sydney. Rips, as you can see by the photo on Instagram, charging a nice big left-hander there. But professionally, Ben is the head forecaster for Coastal Watch and has been for the last 10 years. In this episode, we learn how waves are formed and how to predict them, really, and we go into some of the details about how to read maps and some of the nuances of swell formation. If you have never looked at a synoptic map with the intention of thinking about what waves are coming from a system, then the second half of the interview might lose you a little bit. So you'll either have to be in front of Google or on the Coastal Watch website, there is a whole section on forecasting tutorials that will give you the basics and a lot of visuals. There is links to this in the show notes. Ben is also currently traveling around Australia doing a forecasting workshop with Nick Carroll. There's one in Victoria on the 15th of April. I'll put details to that in the show notes as well as on the Facebook page. Relax and learn a little bit more about surf forecasting.

Ben Macartney
Okay, all right.

Michael Frampton
So, where do waves come from?

Ben Macartney
From wind at the sea surface. It's not to do with the tides of the moon. It's not to do with currents as such. It's 99.99% wind-generated, yeah. And everything we look at, the way we study the forecast, the way I guess, analyze the forecast, it's all in the context of surface wind over the ocean.

Michael Frampton
Strong wind is usually typically associated with a cyclone or a low pressure system.

Ben Macartney
Yeah, that's right. And I think in all surfers' minds, that's the, you know, the golden synoptic feature that we look for, if you like, the stereotypical cyclone or big low, deep low pressure. And they are what generate wind at the sea surface, but it's always in conjunction with a high pressure system on the other side. And I've come to realize over the years that often it's the high pressure that's just as important, if not more important than the low that you're looking at. It's the gradient between them that generates the wind in a way. There's this imbalance in the atmosphere in air pressure, and that the rebalancing process is what generates all this wind. So to just say, yeah, it's all about low pressure systems is a bit of a misnomer or a misconception in a way. I can think of a lot of good examples, especially when you talk about tropical cyclones. In isolation, tropical cyclones generate incredibly strong clockwise winds over a really small geographical area, like a category four or five system can produce wind speeds of 100 to 150 knots, which in kilometres is almost double that. So incredibly strong. If you think about the winds we see here on the coast that can do damage to houses, they're just 35, 45 knots, 35 to 50 knots. You think about wind speeds that are double or triple that, that's incredible forces at work. But yet in isolation, a tropical cyclone out to sea somewhere is just like a storm in a teacup. It won't actually generate much swell of note unless it is within immediate proximity of the coastline. So to go back to surface wind at the sea surface, we describe it, these winds, in the context of a fetch. A fetch is a length of water over which a wind blows in one direction for a given timeframe at a given speed. And I have, you can say there's three key sort of parameters we look for with wind at the sea surface. That's the strength of the fetch, the actual wind speed, the length or size of the fetch, how many hundred nautical miles it might cover or thousands of nautical miles even, and the duration. So how long it lasts for. And by that I mean that wind blowing in the same direction over that same surface area. Because that's what compounds wave growth is that constancy or that continuum of wind blowing in the same direction and the same speed. So yeah, so to go back to a tropical cyclone, if you've just got these clockwise winds, you know, blowing round and round within 300 nautical square miles, it's the resulting swell that emanates from it is actually dissipates really fast and it doesn't really amount to much. What generates the swell? We saw this with tropical cyclone Winston last year. You know, that storm system set up over the, did a huge anti-clockwise loop around the Southwest Pacific and its life cycle took in about 26 days. It's almost a whole month. So I did this tour of the Southwest Pacific and for the first half of its life cycle, it kind of generated a bit of swell and weakened and moved away from Australia. And then it did this big loop and came back to the West across Fiji and re-intensified. And it was at that point that it set up, it wasn't that the core winds itself that were the real source of swell. It was this broader area of easterly winds south of the storm that was set up in conjunction with a big high over the Southwest Pacific. And it's this, it's almost like the hare and the tortoise, you know, it's this broad, stable area belt of winds that isn't even that strong. It might just be compared to the core wind speeds. It's only things like 25 to 35 knots, like a fraction of the core wind speeds, yet it's set up over, you know, a thousand nautical miles. And it remains in place for several days. And that's what generates swell. That's those winds constantly blowing. And it just compounds the size of the deep water swell hour by hour, if you like. And that's what I look for in forecast storm systems is I'm not just looking for a low or a cyclone or a really deep system. It's always about the balancing effect between the high and low. The last event we just had here on the East Coast, it was basically just a big high pressure system with a deep trough below. There was no real, there was a closed low on it, but your stereotypical, you know, rotating low pressure system just, that we look for with the tightly spaced isobars, it didn't exist. It's really, it was really about the stability of the high pressure and that negligible movement of the high over the Tasman Sea that is actually the real driver of the swell.

Michael Frampton
So if there was a really deep low, let's say it was sitting in between New Zealand and Australia, people often think that there would be that pressure system would have a ripple effect. Whereas in there would be a big circle of swell that would emanate out everywhere from the center of that low. Is there any of that going on?

Ben Macartney
Absolutely. Swells do spread radially from their source.

Michael Frampton
But that's not the main swell that comes from there. It's more, you're looking for where the most consistent stretch of wind is around that system. Yeah.

Ben Macartney
I guess you look at storm systems in the context of what they're interacting with. So i.e., a high pressure system. Now that hypothetical high pressure system will sit up against the low at a certain angle. The high might come in from the southwest, or it might be supporting it directly from the south. It can even be coming in directly from the west. And it's all about the orientation of the high and low in the, you know, which way they're aligned. Because that will determine the alignment of the fetch and which way the belt of winds, which is the wind fetch, is pointing. So if you have, you know, a big high coming in from the west and our hypothetical low over the Tasman Sea is rotating, then the resulting gradient is actually south to north. Because it's interacting with the eastern flank of the high. It's hard to take all this in without a visual reference. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
We'll give listeners a visual reference maybe on one. Yeah. They can look up. But so there might be a deep low in between New Zealand and Australia. And we've got some ripple effect swell sort of going everywhere from the chaos. But the main swell is gonna be where the compression between the two systems happens. And then there's a long stretch of consistent wind. Yeah. And that's gonna be the main swell.

Ben Macartney
And the swell will be driven in that direction, the same direction as the wind. And of course, there will be radial spread. So there will be swell spreading out either side of that primary directional band. The core direction of all those winds. Within it, you've got all this chaos happening and there's waves bouncing around everywhere. And so it's not a wave growth and wave formation is not just a linear thing. It doesn't just, you know, go one, two, three, four feet over X number of hours. It's kind of, there's all this chaos in there and the physics involved in calculating it. I mean that, yeah, it's depending on the size of the storm. It's a bit like a bomb going off in the sense that you've got all this energy being released at the surface and it's spreading radially. And there's varying degrees of how waves propagate and spread across ocean basins that are really contingent on wind speeds. Higher the wind speeds, the higher the wave period and things like that. And the higher the wave period, the more effectively this swell will travel and radiate out across an ocean basin. Conversely, a really weak fetch that doesn't exist for, that only sets up for a short timeframe and is only short in length will probably only generate a wind swell which is really susceptible to things like headwinds and currents and will dissipate before it can travel out beyond, you know, 500 to 1,000 nautical miles. They dissipate very quickly, these deep water swells. It's not just the fetch. We're looking at the strength, duration, et cetera, as I discussed before. It's the orientation of the fetch to the coast and the distance of the fetch to the coast. There's all these other little nuances like which way is the low and therefore the fetch moving. That has a huge influence. If a low is retracting away from the coast, then those swell-producing winds are moving backward away from, say, the coast and therefore they're not acting on any one area of sea surface long enough to generate a large swell. I've seen this a few times this year, actually, and I think we're going to see another example this week. This low that's forming off the coast on Thursday, it's forming east of Bass Strait, and it's just going to slip away to the east or east-southeast even. And because of that, even though it's a substantial low, those swell-producing winds are retracting and so they don't have the time to actually work on one area of sea surface long enough to whip up a particularly large swell. We'll still get waves. It's kind of like a two- to four-foot swell, maybe three to four feet at its peak. Whereas if that same low-pressure system happened to be tracking north into the Tasman Sea or back towards the coast, it'd bring the swell-producing winds along with the swell being produced, if you like, and that has an incredible compounding effect on the swell. So the strongest winds, when they move with the swell being produced in the same direction, and if you happen to have it travel at the same speed as the waves being produced, then that's called a captured fetch, and that's where you get phenomenal wave growth, just within, you can have 20, 30-foot seas within 24, 48 hours, stuff like that.

Michael Frampton
So how fast do waves move?

Ben Macartney
Well, a very easy way to figure that out is to multiply the wave period by 1.5. It's a beautiful thing about wave growth. It can be described mathematically. And that's why we describe fetches in nautical miles and wind speeds in knots, because there's a direct relationship between them. So in this case, if you had a wave period of 20 seconds, you multiply it by 1.5, that's 30 knots. That's the deep water speed of a group of waves. That's how fast it's traveling through deep water. Obviously, that changes as it approaches the coast, waves. As they begin to feel the sea floor, they begin to shoal and decelerate. So they lose speed, substantial speed, before they actually, and as they break, they're virtually, they're almost standing still for a moment, I guess. But yeah, that's one way to, it's a very easy rule to follow. If you're looking at a wave map, a chart, and you're looking at a wave period map, particularly on the big ocean basins, like the Indian Ocean and Pacific, where you can, you know, swells have potential to travel for over a week before they hit somewhere. If you take a snapshot at a certain point in time, at the, say at the limit of the model run, which is seven days usually, you can look at the leading edge of a wave period band and calculate the distance to a given location. It might be Indonesia or Western Australia, say if you're in the Indian Ocean, or it might be New Zealand if you're in the Pacific. And if that leading edge of the swell is 20 seconds, then you know that it's traveling at 30 knots. So you can measure the distance on Google Earth and then just divide it to see how long it'll take to arrive. Because if you measure it in nautical miles, then nautical miles divided by knots gives you the number you're looking for in hours.

Michael Frampton
The wind speed determines the period.

Ben Macartney
It plays a big factor, but again, it's in the context of the length of a fetch and the duration, how long it's blowing for. So you might have 50, 60 knot winds blowing, like in a tropical cyclone, they might blow over one area for three hours before the system moves away. And so it's not gonna have much of an effect. But if you've got a big belt of winds that's really strong, 40 to 60 knots, and it's blowing for even just 24 hours or 48 hours, you get a really, you get a big swell out of it and long period swell, yeah. But by the same token, if you get a lower strength fetch of 35 knots, even if that blows for several days, you'll still get a high period swell, not as high. So yeah, there is a direct relationship between wind speed and period, but it's always in the context of the size of a fetch and its duration. So there's no simple recipe there. You can't always just say, yeah, we're gonna get a long period ground swell out of this because the winds are 45 knots. It's all in the context of those other factors. Okay, yeah.

Michael Frampton
The main swell is where the longest length of fetch is pointing to, would be this direction of the swell. But then you've got, like you said, you've got these ripple effect swells coming out of the system as well. Does that explain the smaller, less perfect waves in between the big sets on a day? Where you might have a swell, let's say you've got a two metre swell at 15 seconds, and then there's three waves every five minutes. But then there's all these other waves that aren't as clean coming in as well. Are they potentially coming from the same system?

Ben Macartney
Not necessarily, but if you assume they are, again, there's a lot of factors that go into that. If you talk about long range sources, like say a swell for Indonesia, where you're out at G-Land and there's six to eight foot sets, but in between there's really constant three to five foot waves. And it's like, they're probably exhibiting different periods. So the reason you can have a sea state like that, where you have all these different waves breaking different heights, and I think it boils down to the characteristics of a storm system and the winds within it. So usually from my experience anyway, it's the largest waves that are generated, the big six to eight foot set waves carry the longest intervals. They're generated at the height of the storm system's life cycle. So say that occurs when the storm is 1,500 miles from Indonesia and you get 45 knot winds over 24 to 48 hours, stable fetch generates this ground swell that's hitting at 16, 17 seconds and they're the six to eight foot sets. What happens after that? Say the storm's travelling northeast towards Western Australia and it starts weakening. Suddenly the fetch has moved several hundred nautical miles further to the east and northeast and the wind speeds are 35 knots, 35, they've dropped 10 knots, but the fetch is still in place and maybe the alignment's changed a tiny bit, but it's still, it's actually closer to Indonesia than the strongest fetch area was at the storm's inception. So what you effectively have is a new fetch. It's the same storm, but it's generating a new swell and that new swell will come in at lower periods of say 12 to 14 seconds and it won't be as big because 12 to 14 seconds swell will dissipate more, it's, the wind speeds aren't as strong so it hasn't whipped up as much swell, the storm's weakening, but what you can see happening is both of those swells arriving at the same time because say if the storm system has moved ahead of the ground swell it's produced, which is pretty common, they accelerate out to the east or northeast and they generate a much broader but weaker fetch within closer range of Indonesia, then suddenly you've got this additional mid-period energy in the mix and that can mix in with the anteceding ground swell and that's a really common effect of storm systems, big broad scale storm systems that generate, that have multiple stages in their life cycle. Like some of these storms will intensify like below Madagascar and generate a fetch like that, super strong, then that lasts about 24 hours, it'll weaken for maybe a day or two and it'll still be generating 35 knot winds and then it redevelops as it comes in over the southeastern Indian Ocean below Indonesia and you get a renewed fetch of 40 to 60 knots or something and because of all those life cycles in the systems they can generate sort of unique swells within the broader swell itself and I guess that's what we don't necessarily see in some of the wave modelling we look at. It's all a simplification of a very complicated sea state. So when we say, yeah, look at those peak intervals, it's 17 seconds and wow, it's an approximation of the peak energy in the water based on a mathematical set of rules that's been applied by a person. A person's gone, okay, well we're gonna measure the top 30%, 35% of waves and what their average wave period is and assign that as the peak height and period. But you can alter those variables and you'll get very different readings and that's why some models will show slightly different readings for wave period and height, things like that. For instance, if you look at significant wave height on a swell map, that's very different from swell wave height. Significant wave height is the wind swell added to the actual underlying swell. So that's the total sea state. So you can have significant wave height might be 50 to 60 feet over the Southern Ocean somewhere, but that's just chaos. Within that, you've got all this multitude of different waves exhibiting different periods and frequencies, if you like. So I think it's always something to keep in mind when you look at the wave modelling. It is a simplification of reality. And that's where analysing the fetch can give you a jump. Where you get a fetch that's travelling towards Indonesia over several days, if we stick with Indonesia as the example here, and you see that it's gone through several phases in its evolution. It started out at x speed, as I mentioned before, and changed to y speed and the location of the fetch has changed, but it's all generating swell for Indonesia. What that means is that you're going to have a much more energetic swell event with all these waves in between. So while it's six to eight foot at G-Land on the sets, in between it's just constant three to six foot waves. Really a lot of water moving down the reef, a lot of wave action on the reef. That's one of the beauties of surfing Indonesia is its exceptional exposure to storm systems over the Indian Ocean. Now the converse of that, a good example, is where you have a really zonal-oriented fetch. A zonal is west to east. So in the instance where you've got a dominating high pressure over the central Indian Ocean, and it's suppressing storm activity. So the storms tracking below that high are pushed further south into polar latitudes, say below 50 degrees south. Well, that's really, they're all polar fronts and lows moving through. The winds generated between that dominant high and the lows, the storm track beneath it will be westerly. And so they're actually not aimed at Indonesia, they're aimed at Tasmania and New Zealand. The primary swell band is aimed away to the east, away from Indonesia. But what you get is this radial energy spreading off that storm track. But what you get from that is a much more discreet swell. It's more of a vector. That doesn't make sense. It has less spectral density, is a good way to put it. There's less diversity in the wave trains moving in. What you'll get is a high period pulse arriving, spreading radially off that primary swell. And it'll just be a fraction of the deep water swell. So instead of six to eight foot sets, it might only be three to four foot. And because it's only those high period waves that make it to Indonesia, all you're seeing is the sets. In between, it'll be really like calm. And that's where you get these long lulls. They'll be like, you can be out there and in 10, 20 minutes, there's hardly any waves breaking. And then when the sets come, there might be three to five waves. And it's really, it's beautiful because there's not a lot of movement in the water. But it's that ground swell alone that's arriving. It's not all these interacting wave trains arriving at once, you see. So that's something to keep in mind. When you look at a wave period band spreading out across the Indian Ocean, you see it's got peak periods of 20 seconds. You go, wow, look at that ground swell. It's gonna be amazing. Let's book a flight. It's kind of like, hold your horses because what underpins, what else is it telling you? If you look at the storm system, what's the full story? And you can sort of say that it might not be all it's cracked up to be. Yeah. You go, bit disappointing.

Michael Frampton
To Ulus, there's a hundred people out and there's three waves every 10 minutes. Yeah, something like that. A.

Ben Macartney
And that's how you can really differentiate, I think, is by looking at a storm system and asking yourself, well, is it aimed directly at Indonesia? Is it travelling towards Indonesia or is it slipping away? How long has those winds been blowing for? A really good telltale sign of a major swell event is when you can see that these wind fetches are aimed at Indonesia, but they last so long that the blobs of swell you get on the wave charts, and they're not just purple, but they're purple over a much broader area. When you get those really expansive areas of seas and swell in the significant heights, like 40 to 50 feet, you know that that's another way of deriving, well, this storm system has been in place for days at a time, the winds are strong to generate seas of that size, seas and swell of that size over such a vast area, it's gonna be significant. Whereas if you get those much smaller storm systems, where there's a little purple blob in the middle and it's fanning out off it somewhere, then obviously it's not going to be as significant by the time it arrives. Yeah, I've seen plenty of good examples of that. You know, the swell that hit Cloud Break all those years ago, they call it, you know, the guy made the movie Thundercloud, all the big wave guys were there, they were meant to be running the event, and you had all these Hawaiian guys paddling in on nine, 10 foot boards or whatever into 20 foot perfection, pretty much. That storm system just set up was complex, slow moving, and it set up over the, you know, below the Tasman Sea in New Zealand for many days at a time. And because it was just a slow, low pressure gyre, if you like, there were just multiple lows rotating through that system that was supporting these incredibly strong wind speeds for days at a time. And so what you sort of have is this huge burst of 45 knot winds for 12, 24 hours, and it eases a bit, but you've got this massive sea state in place, and then the next low comes through and just adds to it. And that's what's sometimes referred to in forecasting as the step ladder effect, where you get very large, complex storm systems rotating in a large, low pressure gyre. You can see these in effect when you look at Southern Ocean synoptic charts, like synoptic charts that take in the entire Indian Ocean or the entire Pacific, and you can see these, what some people refer to as the long wave trough, where you might have a super active area of storm activity that manifests as a gyre. So it's like a big parent system, and within it, there's a multitude of smaller lows rotating through it. And they're the big storm systems to watch out for if you're planning a trip somewhere, if you're looking just to target a swell and go and find some big waves. It's those broad scale systems that last for days at a time and move slowly. They can really, they piggyback on each other. One low will generate 30-foot seas. The next one that comes across adds to it, et cetera. So yeah, it's interesting.

Michael Frampton
So if you just look at the charts and you see a swell that's three metres at 18 seconds, it might just be one of those swells where there's only three waves every 10 minutes. So it's pretty important to not just look at the charts on Coastal Watch, but to actually go and look at the paragraph that you've written on the forecast as well.

Ben Macartney
Yeah, absolutely. I guess that's where the written discussion can give you an idea of what's really going on, rather than just looking at the wave chart or graph that will give you a generic height and period. And they're good snapshot indicators. There's no doubt that a virtual buoy of any sort can give you a reasonably good idea of what might happen. But to really, for decision-making purposes, if you're thinking of jumping on a plane or deciding whether or not to take two big boards or just three short boards, things like that on your trip, I think it's really helpful to drill down into the actual storm system itself and see what's going on. By that, yeah, that means looking at synoptic charts and forecast surface winds and satellite images of surface winds. They're all, I guess that's the stuff I look at on a daily basis just to get a handle on swell potential. You can definitely give yourself an advantage, I think, just by spending a bit more time looking at the origin of a swell.

Michael Frampton
And learning about it. Yeah. So what about, let's take the example of a local Australian East Coast forecast or system. And sometimes it can be, let's say, a two-metre southerly swell at 15 seconds. And there's these really clean lines coming through, the reef breaks light up. If there's a good bank, you get some good clean waves at a beachy. And then a couple of weeks later, you get another 15-second southerly swell at two metres. And it's kind of wobbly and bumpy and the reef breaks aren't really breaking properly, but then the beach breaks kind of light up and you don't need as good of banks to have peakiness. Yeah. But looking at the graph, the swell looks the same, but can you explain the nuances between? Yeah.

Ben Macartney
I mean, there's a lot of potential nuances that can make that happen. And a big one is secondary swells. At any given time, there's often more than one swell in the water. And sometimes you end up with two swells that are kind of competing. And what you can see on a wave graph can be misleading because you might see it's two metres at 15 seconds. But what that doesn't show you is that there's a 15-second ground swell coming in that's two feet. And the primary swell is actually a six foot, so a 1.5 metre swell that's only eight to nine seconds. So what you've actually got is a combination of wind swell and ground swell. But on the chart, it looks the same because they both say they're both coming from the south. It's gonna look the same. Whereas in the first instance, if you've just got just a two metre 15-second ground swell coming in from 180 degrees straight south, then there's no noise. There's none of this sort of additional swell adding wobble into it and adding this sort of bit of chaos into the mix, I guess. It's just a pure ground swell that'll be clean when it arrives. So yeah, I mean, there's a lot of nuances there in that sense. Even the swell direction can have a big impact. The difference between a deep water south-southwest ground swell that's actually spreading up into the Tasman Sea at 190 degrees, which is a little past south-southwest, they will actually, if it's long period, if it's above 15 seconds or more, they can focus into certain reefs and bays and points and generate really big surf while other beaches remain relatively tame. We tend to see that every winter, at least once or twice, where a sizable long period directional ground swell arrives. By directional, it's kind of spreading up parallel to the coast, but there's still a component of that energy refracting back into the New South Wales coast. With any ground swell, there's that spread and some places will just pick it up and focus it. Usually because of the offshore bathymetry, there'll be a deep gully or a trench or something. One of those spots is Depo Bommie. I know from experience that you see photos of it breaking at 10 to 15 feet on these ground swells, and my local beach will be six foot. Bondi, it'll pick up, picks up, in theory, the maximum amount of south ground swell, but it'll just be five, six foot. And then other beaches can just be three to four. And it has a lot to do with the local geography and the coastline and how they interact with that deep water energy. I guess to put that into context, you need to think of ground swells in terms of deep water energy, i.e. how far they penetrate below the surface. So a wave with a period of 20 seconds, it penetrates about 350 metres below the surface.

Michael Frampton
Wow, about a thousand feet.

Ben Macartney
So it's gonna interact with the sea floor so far offshore that you can't actually see where it... So by the time you see the swell, it's already changed because of the sea floor. Whereas a wave period of eight seconds, it penetrates about 50 metres below the sea surface. And so its interaction with the sea floor is much more localised. It won't really react substantially until it hits the beach, almost, before it really begins to feel the bottom. Whereas deep water ground swells will almost react to the continental shelf or reefs, deep water features offshore. And now once they react to those, what are they doing? They're slowing, they're wrapping, they're refracting and doing all sorts of things. They're being modified. And that's where you get a lot of misconceptions. I know from my own experience over the years, seeing a lot of local surfers see a big south ground swell coming in because it's already turned to face the beach much further offshore. It looks like an easterly swell. And a lot of people will say that. They'll say, it's meant to be a south ground swell. This is coming in straight out of the east. And so they dash off down south to Maroubra because Maroubra is the place to be when it's an easterly swell. And it's not even getting in there properly. It's kind of almost flat down the south end and four foot up the north end or something. And they go, they scratch their heads and go. I've seen that happen. I've had guys come to me and go, we thought it was an easterly swell but Maroubra is not getting it. And it's like, that's a straight south ground swell at 17 seconds or something. That's what it does. And you can have these similar effects at your own local area. You might see a particular swell arriving at a particular period and direction. And it can actually, it can be confounding. You can go, wow, it's not really getting in here or it's really focusing in this other spot. I've seen it happen out the front here at Av where deep water southeast ground swells and stuff seem to focus on that reef that's right out off the southern cliff. I think one of the boys has paddled out there and surfed it once. Have you heard? Everex. Is that what they call it?

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Ben Macartney
Yeah. And I've seen like in some of these ground swells, particular swells, that reef just focusing these sets. And it's like, there's no one surfing it. But you can see it's gotta be like six foot plus. And yet on the beach, there's hardly any sets coming in. And it's like four foot or something. And you go, what's going on there? And it's just the bathymetry in action in a particular swell. And you can get similar effects everywhere where swell react to certain parts of the sea floor given at a particular, on this continuum of period and direction, which is complex. Even slight shifts in the direction can change the effect. And then there's the tide, things like that compound what the local effects you have. If you get unusually big tides, suddenly like we saw, I think it was late last year or earlier this year with the super moon and the huge tides that we had were about as extreme as they get. On the extreme low tides like that, suddenly you can have a bathymetric feature offshore that's suddenly much shallower than it usually is. And you've suddenly got a ground swell reacting to it, whereas normally it passes over the top of it. And there's all this sort of stuff that can happen with swells, I guess. And that's where just your local observations can really pay off, just knowing years and years of observing your own local breaks and knowing how they react in — exactly.

Michael Frampton
In combination with looking at charts as well, though. Yeah.

Ben Macartney
So that's it, that's how you learn, is you know if you can analyse the forecast swell and look at the data that's showing. On the real wave buoys offshore, they actually give you real-time indications of deep water swell and period. Compare that to a virtual buoy run. And yeah, you've got to be able to — I mean, some people write that down as a guide. I used to.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Ben Macartney
Yeah. Yeah, I've heard of a few guys just year off, you know, to accumulate this knowledge year after year so they know what to expect. And they've got precedence.

Michael Frampton
Because there can be a big difference between a 181 degree swell at 15 seconds at two metres and then 184 degrees of a swell that has a period one second less. Yeah. It might look really similar, but if you start looking at the details and you go, no, that's actually quite a different swell because last time we had a swell like that, I went around the corner and thinking that there would be waves at the beach around the corner, but there wasn't. So now I know just to stay here because that swell is getting in here. I know from experience, there's no point driving 10 minutes up the road because that angle and that period comes into that beach at a kind of weird. And that's because of, you know, the nuances in the direction, the period, and the bathymetry as well.

Ben Macartney
For sure. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
I went through it when I was, when I started surfing, there was no surf forecasting things. It was, I used to take a photo of the conditions, especially if it was good at a break, and then I would cut the ISOBAR map out of the paper and stick it on the back. Yeah. And then, you know, I started journaling like. Yeah, I used to learn which beach to go to based on the map and the marine forecast.

Ben Macartney
That. And that's a great way to do it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Ben Macartney
Yeah. That's a clever way to do it, I think. And, you know, in the pre-digital age, when before the internet was just, all you had was the weather charts and the paper and —

Michael Frampton
Yep, yeah. And the marine forecast on — Yeah, so there's those nuances about bathymetry and changes in swell direction that affect waves at your local break.

Ben Macartney
Yeah, that was it. That was about it. But yeah, it's certainly changed since then.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
But there's what we talked about before was the secondary swells as well.

Ben Macartney
Yeah, that's right. And they play a big factor, I think. Easy to overlook when you're looking at a primary swell on a chart and you're focused on the deep water ground swell. Often what you don't see is some short period swell that's in the mix, or even one or two of them. You might have some residual northeast wind swell from the day before, and then a southerly change comes through before the arrival of the ground swell, and that whips up a small south-southeast wind swell or something. And suddenly you've got all this noise mixed in with the ground swell, and it can really, you know, take the shine off these events. Or perhaps sometimes it might not matter, and other times you go, this isn't what I was thinking, even though the next day on the arrival of the ground swell, the winds are offshore and everything looks like it should click into place. You've got these additional wave trains that can throw a curveball into the mix. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
I've been caught out in the past where you see one of these clean swells coming, and you go to a point break or a reef break, and it's all funky and wobbly and weird because of the secondary swell interacting. But then you go to a beach break, which might not have banks per se, but because the secondary swell is interacting with the other swell in such a way, there's all these A-frames up and down the beach.

Ben Macartney
Yeah, it can be really favorable for some spots rather than others. You know, for me, it brings up the characteristics of different swells and how I know at Bondi, where I grew up surfing, short-period swells can just be, you know, just be fantastic. You get these really particularly large short-period swells, like a three-metre swell that's only eight seconds, and it turns into a really sort of peaky fun park with all these different lefts and rights. And I've seen it change, like, in the space of one day to the next, where the period jumps up to 10 seconds the next day, and it turns into what it's always been and always will be, which is mostly a closeout. Yep. And you hear guys say, wow, the banks have gone, you know, but it's kind of, the sand's still there, it's just the swell characteristics have changed and it's interacting with the bathymetry, with the sandbanks, differently. You know, these waves will, an increase in period will increase the wavelength, so you have longer swell that's feeling the bottom in deeper water and reacting to the whole sandbar rather than the gutters and rips. Things like that. So yeah, it's interesting.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I guess that's kind of exaggerated in the corner of a beach where there's a bit of a headland, you see the, they call it wedging, when the first wave of the set refracts off the rock or whatever and hits the second wave of the set and makes that wave peel and it's more powerful. Yeah. That's a really obvious way to look at what we're talking about. But Tom Carroll said something in a previous interview, is that getting better at surfing has got a lot to do with really paying attention to the details. Yeah. And that's one thing that helped my surfing a lot. And so I really started looking at, okay, I'd look on the chart and go, okay, there's a primary swell here, but there's a primary southerly swell, but there's a secondary nor'easterly swell. And so when I'm surfing, I'm looking out, where is that nor'easterly swell? I'm not just trying to get in rhythm with the bigger sets. I wanna know, I wanna get in rhythm with both of those swells and really look. I found it really helpful to look at the charts and at the period and the direction and size of that secondary swell. And it just, when you have a look, and even tertiary swells as well. So when you have a look at the forecast and the charts, when you go surfing, you've got an idea of what to look at so you can learn to see these other waves in the water when you know what you're looking for. Absolutely. This is something else I found important, another sort of correlation between looking at, having this obsession with surf forecasting.

Ben Macartney
And it makes things really, I think that's where we're really lucky on the East Coast. We have this incredible diversity in different swells in terms of, on the swell spectrum of direction, period, and height, we get this incredible variety. We really do. Whereas a lot of the big west-facing coasts around the world, it's kind of more of a staple, mostly long period swells out of the southwest or west-southwest, varying degrees from there. But I mean, the West Coast a few years ago got a big northwest cyclone swell. And that was the first one that apparently a lot of the locals had ever seen in like 30 years. Whereas for us here, we get this incredible diversity and yeah, it makes life really interesting. I've had similar surfs like that where you get these two swells interacting and they have incredible effects when on a beach break somewhere, when they both combine. It's kind of rare, but when you see it happen, they're really unique.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. It's rare to see it really like to play to place up, but at the same time, it's always in play. Yeah, it is. As well. And I find that's the difference between, you see the surfers, they go out and they just seem to catch all of the good waves. And you're like, you catch a wave and it's just fat and it doesn't peel. And then they paddle out again and they catch the other one. I think the difference is they're really aware of some of the details of how other swells, not just secondary and tertiary swells, but the way the wind's interacting with the surface of the water.

Ben Macartney
Which waves are bouncing off a rock and wedging. Refractions, exactly. Which ones aren't. Yeah, that's the power of observation, I guess. And when you apply that power of observation in the context of knowing about what swells are in the water, it can give you a big jump.

Michael Frampton
What about, so we've got all these nuances locally about how certain swells can seem somewhat similar on the chart, but actually on the day, very different, depending on slight differences in period, angle, and of course the effect of other swells. But there's something similar going on with winds as well, I find. Like there's a big difference between a nor-easterly and a nor-east-easterly, for example. Because the winds can kind of just, they just seem to swirl around different bays. And can you end up with pockets of almost offshore or light variables in corners and places?

Ben Macartney
As well. That's why a straight easterly or anything from an easterly, the easterly quadrant, is just a surf wrecker for just about everywhere because it can't interact so much with any headlands or valleys or geography, if you like. It's just gonna come straight into every exposed bit of beach and just blow onshore. Whereas the effects of the coastal geography on different winds is phenomenal. And it's a beautiful thing. There's a lot of places. I know my local, Tamarama, when the winds are nor-noreast, it's virtually offshore in there. You've got this huge headland that sticks out and the wind curls around it and comes down in through Mackenzie's and Tamarama and it's cross offshore a lot of the time. Or just cross shore. And it's just like a little miracle of nature. Yeah. And there's other really good examples around here. And I guess that stuff, I don't, it's not stuff that I incorporate into daily forecasts because it's such a granular thing in terms of every bit of coastline has its own idiosyncrasies in that regard. I've seen, one of the most unique ones I've seen is at Whale Beach, where it can be blowing west-southwest, and the wind curls around onshore.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I've seen that.

Ben Macartney
It's unbelievable. Like in theory you're going, wow, this is like perfect conditions. Like the winds are offshore at a certain speed. And yet when these sets come in, there's this weird rippling onshore effect going on. And a guy explained it to me recently as downdrafts coming off that steep valley, the winds, as it comes over the top of a steep valley, it's, you know, it's coming down and curling back in. There was a term for it that alludes me now, but it's not something I study on a day-to-day basis, those local wind effects. But when you observe them, it can be staggering.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's good to take note. And on the Coastal Watch website, you guys have the live wind feed.

Ben Macartney
We do.

Michael Frampton
From the airport, is it?

Ben Macartney
Yeah, from automated weather stations, from the Bureau of Meteorology. They have, you know, usually update every half an hour or even sooner. So.

Michael Frampton
They're worth looking at, because the wind can be forecast as a nor-east-easterly, but it might actually be a nor-nor-easterly in reality. And sometimes it's hard to tell from, even if you live at the beach, whether what's going on up the road. But if you keep an eye on those live feeds, you get more of an idea of what the wind's doing in real time compared to what the forecast.

Ben Macartney
Is. Absolutely. The forecast models, especially GFS, which drives a lot of the forecast data that you look at, that's a global forecast system that is freely available from the US Navy, from NOAA. You know, it's not particularly granular. It's picking up gradient winds and isn't factoring in the local effects of the coastline and smaller weather systems necessarily. And that's where on Coastal Watch, we've got APS2 model running, which is from the BOM for the first 72 hours on our forecast winds. And it does factor in a lot of the local land effects. So you'll see it will pick up early morning offshores before a southerly kicks in, things like that. But yeah, it's always interesting. I keep an eye on the live winds religiously. Because winds, they don't obviously follow the forecast modelling precisely. You can have onshore. I saw it, we saw it over the weekend where the onshore east-northeast flow starts to, it'll just die out for a few hours. Suddenly you get this window, like when we paddled out at ABB the other day, actually, and the winds suddenly drop off to five to 15 knots for about an hour or two. And you've got this short window. It's like a little miracle where the gradient has just slackened over the region temporarily, where you can get some really fun semi-clean waves before the wind comes back up. Yeah, and that happens a lot, when you watch these weather systems unfold and you have a gradient wind in place where it's just blowing out the surf at 15 to 20 knots all day. If you keep an eye out, there are these windows that'll appear where the stability of the gradient fluctuates and you suddenly have a drop in local winds. I guess that's one reason why so many hardcore surfers don't even worry so much about forecasts. They just go, just check it. Just check it every day. Just watching it.

Michael Frampton
That's good. If you have the time to have that luxury, that's awesome. That's right. What's the difference between a wind swell and a ground swell? Is it a line in the sand? Yeah.

Ben Macartney
Well, it's a loose line in the sand and it really comes down to wave period. And wind swells are locally generated, usually within close range of the coast. The wind speeds usually aren't as strong. And so the swell's more disorganised and not necessarily as big. You can get massive wind swells, of course. But yeah, the real differentiator is period. And anything that's below 10 seconds is pretty much regarded as wind swell. And anything above that, more above 12 seconds, you can talk about as ground swell. I think in my forecasting notes, I usually make reference to mid-period swells as the sort of in-between. Because I think there is an in-between, where there is some deep water energy present, but it's not particularly strong. So I just call it mid-period energy. And that generally means anything from nine to 12 seconds, I guess, that bandwidth. There's some substance there, but it's, yeah. It's the magic number, wave period, absolutely.

Michael Frampton
What about, you know, sometimes, I don't know whether this is just because our attention is drawn to the fact that it is raining, but sometimes when it starts raining, the waves kind of stop.

Ben Macartney
Yeah, I've noticed that as well. I've noticed.

Michael Frampton
Can you explain that?

Ben Macartney
I can't necessarily explain that, no, I don't. I haven't thought of a — well, what happens in big, when you get a lot of low pressure, then it actually takes pressure off the sea surface and the sea surface will rise.

Michael Frampton
You know. I mean, does atmospheric pressure affect?

Ben Macartney
That's where you get storm surges. So when we have big East Coast lows, I don't know if you ever noticed this effect, but the sea level will be higher simply because if we have low pressure over us, then the pressure exerted on the sea surface is lower and therefore it allows the ocean to sort of expand in that area, swells. Yeah, and I've seen that effect with big East Coast lows on plenty of occasions where I've gone down to jump off the rocks and it's like a mid tide or a low tide and it's like a massive high tide and you go, what is going on here? I can't even jump off the rocks in my usual spot and guys are jumping off in completely different locations.

Michael Frampton
That makes sense now. Yeah. Because I've always kind of maybe thought that especially in terms of height, that tide prediction is never really quite right. But now if I think about it and take into account atmospheric pressure, that could explain that discrepancy.

Ben Macartney
It does, big time. Because I guess day in, day out, we don't see a lot of variation from around 1000 to 1030 HPA. And that difference won't, I don't think it'll have a real noticeable effect on the sea surface. But once it really starts to drop, if you've got low pressure over the coast and it's well below 1000 somewhere, then you can see that effect can be quite pronounced. A guy from South Australia told me once that there are, down there, winter breaks and summer breaks. That these places that break only in winter and others that break only in summer simply because of that pressure difference that you have between winter and summer.

Michael Frampton
That just due to the height of the water? Yeah.

Ben Macartney
Yeah. With the onset of big frontal systems and low pressure, you get this, yeah, totally different characteristics.

Michael Frampton
So atmospheric pressure doesn't really affect the swell. It's more the sea level.

Ben Macartney
Yeah, I mean directly over the coast, over the actual place where you're surfing, the atmospheric pressure doesn't. Yeah, that's right. But it can definitely have an impact on sea level where you get extremes in pressure. Yeah, I've never thought too much about the converse of that and whether extreme high pressure can actually keep the water level down. Yeah, should look into that. Because I've, I guess because I've always observed it during East Coast lows, it's something I became aware of a long time ago and read about since. But the converse should in theory be true to a degree.

Michael Frampton
Changes in atmospheric pressure would certainly make the extremes a little bit off what's predicted as well. Yeah. It would suppress or allow more movement. Therefore the timings could be slightly different.

Ben Macartney
And perhaps, you know, that's just another little factor that can make one day different from another when in theory they should look the same. All those little factors all add up together to produce a unique day.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, especially at some certain reef breaks and slabs where the actual water level on the reef is so important. And it's, there's low tides and there's low tides, right? So we've really got to consider how much water is on the reef, not just whether it's a low spring tide or a low neap tide. There's much more to — although tides is probably a whole nother, it's a whole nother discussion, tides.

Ben Macartney
It. Yeah, there can be, I think.

Michael Frampton
Something interesting you mentioned last time we spoke was that looking at a two-dimensional map can be deceiving because the earth is three-dimensional and you referenced great circles.

Ben Macartney
Think it is. I think it is. But.

Michael Frampton
Could you summarize those maybe?

Ben Macartney
Yeah, I guess if you grab a sphere, like a ball that you might sit on at work instead of a chair, and if you try and draw a straight line on it, you kind of can't. It's always going to be curved. Any line drawn on a sphere will have a curvature. And I guess that's what we take for granted when we look at the swell maps, is that over long distances, swell will follow the curvature of the Earth. And these paths, these curves along the Earth, are known as great circle paths. And if you Google it, you'll come up with a lot of stuff about aeronautics and aerial navigation, because pilots use them to navigate across continents, et cetera. They'll fly across these great circle paths, but swell travels along great circle paths. Effectively, it's traveling in a straight line, but it's following the curvature of the Earth to a distant location. These great circles really only come into effect, I think, when swells are traveling more than 1,000 nautical miles. But it has quite incredible implications. And these are sort of the sort of things I only became aware of years after getting right into swell forecasting. The fact that a giant storm system below the Great Australian Bight that's generating even west-north-west winds can actually give us a ground swell here along the East Coast. And it's really counterintuitive when you look at a weather chart. And I used to tell people, once I discovered all this stuff, I'd tell people, I'd say, we're getting a ground swell. Where's it coming from? It's coming from below South Australia. They'd look at me like I'm an idiot. And go, what are you talking about? You're not making any sense. And in the forecast notes, I'm saying there's a huge westerly swell below Tasmania and South Australia is actually gonna give us a south ground swell. And how does that work? Well, if you open up Google Earth and you use the draw function, you can draw a line from anywhere along the East Coast down into the Southern Ocean. And you'll start to see as you get down into polar latitudes, how that line curves along the Earth's surface. It's quite a nice effect. And if you scroll out from the screen and so you're looking at the entire sort of ocean basin, the Tasman and even the broader, the Great Southern Ocean, you can really see these effects in play when you mess around with the line function on Google Earth. It's a really useful way to analyse swell windows, to look at what land masses might be acting as shadowing or blocking certain swells. So you can see the limits of our swell window south of Tasmania. But it's staggering — like some swells will, if they're big enough, even though the primary direction of that giant swell somewhere over the Indian Ocean or below Australia might not be along a great circle path, the refracted energy will be. So the sideband energy radiating out from that swell source can travel along a great circle path to our coastline. And although it will arrive at very small heights, often just a fraction of a — even just a fraction of a foot sometimes. So, you know, half a foot, a half a foot swell at 20 seconds, stuff like that. And yet it's originated thousands and thousands of nautical miles away. I guess you call these, often in forecasting, I think of them as theoretical swells because the wave modelling is picking it up and it's showing on all the charts. It actually, you can see the wave period band moving up into the Tasman Sea, but it's so small that it won't have a palpable effect on surfing conditions. It will be superseded by a different swell that's generated much closer to the coast. But yeah, they are fascinating. And they have real, really palpable effects for places like Indonesia and even, you know, the West Coast of America and Hawaii, obviously, but anywhere where the swell travels, where long period swells can travel for thousands of nautical miles, it has an impact, yeah. A good example is Indonesia. In theory, you can have ground swells generated over the South Atlantic arrive in Indonesia. So if you get westerly winds over the South Atlantic, if the swell's big enough, it'll travel some over 6,000 nautical miles to arrive in Indonesia. And that'll be over seven days later. It's — I tracked one last year and it arrived at two feet at 20 seconds or something. Yeah. They can come from a long way away. And yeah, again, that's a beautiful thing about the East Coast. We can, every once in a while, we get these really remote south, southeast ground swells from not just below New Zealand, but well southeast of New Zealand. And these really remote corners of our swell window that every once in a while, you'll get a big fetch set up down there and they generate fantastic waves for the East Coast, like a southeasterly direction with a long period can just be fantastic. And I've seen, you don't see many of those, but it's just another example of the variation we can get. You know, years ago, I think Mike Stewart, the bodyboarder, he chased a swell from New Zealand to Tahiti and then onto America and then eventually Alaska. And that's how far these things will travel.

Michael Frampton
Wow. So you can actually beat it on a plane.

Ben Macartney
Yeah, you can beat them on a plane. Yeah, if your flights are scheduled nice and tightly, yeah, you can get the jump on these swells and be there just in time to surf a spot the next day. And, you know, that was done in the nineties, Mike Stewart and I can't remember who else it was. Maybe it was just him. And more recently, I think some other guys gave it a go and chased a swell across the Pacific basin. And — but I think the Pacific Ocean is really the only one where you can feasibly do that. Perhaps you could do it in the Atlantic, but it's known as — it's been proved possible that a polar swell in the Southern Hemisphere can be surfed in Alaska. And that's vast distance. I haven't measured it. That's the, you know, it's a pole to pole almost. And that it's testament to the incredible efficiency with which deep water ground swells will traverse deep water. They move with virtually no friction. They move, they're unimpeded until they reach a landmass. And the thing that really makes them dissipate as they travel is the attenuation of the swell, is the actual spreading process. If you think about the swell at its origin, a swell line at its origin, as it moves up — I read this the other day and it's a fascinating idea. If you think about, just to illustrate the effects of swell spreading and the effects of the globe on the swell, if you imagine instead of the South Pole, there was a big storm there. It was just a massive low pressure system where the South Pole is. And it was a huge low just generating giant swell. And that swell was just radiating out from that point zero. At the South Pole, every direction you look, it's north. So all the swell is traveling north along every longitudinal band. But those longitudinal bands diverge from the point you leave point zero. So they're diverging. And it follows that the swell diverges as it approaches the equator.

Michael Frampton
Thin out. And then potentially if it was unaffected, theoretically, once it had passed the equator, would it then slowly compress and get bigger again?

Ben Macartney
That's an interesting — I haven't actually thought it through that far. I haven't, but that is a fascinating idea. If you think about the — perhaps it would compress. If you approach the North Pole, they're actually — the lines of longitude are compressing. Would the swell then regather into a smaller and smaller area? It makes sense that it would in a way.

Michael Frampton
If it was unaffected by —

Ben Macartney
But you'd think perhaps you'd need some assistance from some bathymetric assistance in a way. I don't know. It's a really complicated idea. But yeah, I'm probably beyond my level of knowledge for sure. But we do see those effects in Indonesia, those incredibly long swell lines that arrive along the reefs and beaches there that just stretch as far as the eye can see, basically. The wavelengths are incredibly long and that's sort of a by-product of this thinning effect of the swell — is the attenuation of the swell.

Michael Frampton
Fascinating. Yeah, it is. A lot to it. So let's summarize a little bit maybe. We talked about the nuances of secondary swells, tertiary swells, bathymetry, atmospheric pressure. There's a lot going on with scoring waves at both your local and surrounding beaches as well as surf trips. So I just would urge from personal experience, and I would just urge people, just to keep an eye on not just the charts, not just the swell charts, but look at the secondary swells or tertiary swells and not just at the start of the day but the end of the day as well. Yeah. So just go, what did the forecast look like and how were the waves? And if your local beach really lights up, maybe even jot down some of the details as well as looking at the winds as well. You mentioned the actual buoys.

Ben Macartney
The actual wave.

Michael Frampton
You guys list that on Coastal Watch. That's there on Coastal Watch. All the wind charts, the live winds, the wind predictions are all there, as well as your take on, you know, what's the word? Like taking all of this theory into something practical because like we said, you can have a swell that looks good but it might just be a bunch of lulls.

Ben Macartney
Yeah, that's exactly.

Michael Frampton
Right. Make sure you look at the paragraphs that he writes when he breaks down what the maps are showing as well. Is there anything else that I've missed that people might be?

Ben Macartney
There could well be. I mean, I can usually just talk on and on about the various aspects of wave propagation and, you know, storm systems and all the nuances. But I don't know, I guess I think it can be a powerful thing, as you said, to make observations in your own right of swells and then reflect on what the forecast data was telling you and what swells were in the water, what the conditions were like, and having a knowledge base can really allow you just to manage your expectations in a way about what to expect rather than, you know, just seeing, you know, high periods at three metres and going, come on, I'm going to take a week off and we're going to go down the coast and find perfection. Just to know that it's not necessarily all it's going to be cracked up to be. I mean, I guess for me, you know, with surfing, a big part of it is just that, just managing expectations. And because over the years, I've seen so many potential amazing storm systems, and when it does arrive, you kind of go, of course, there's this secondary swell or the wind hasn't been offshore long enough and there's still all this chop left over from yesterday or even just the sandbanks are really straight. And there's so many factors that come into play in that sense. I think, you know, it's... I think there's two important things for me. One is keep trying, keep getting out there, drive down the coast, drive up to the next beach around the corner and keep looking, because even if you think it's not going to be that good or probably, it can be. The more you look, the more you'll score. I think the more you go and put yourself out there and get out of your comfort zone, I think that's one rule to follow.

Michael Frampton
And just quietly, we can look on the cams.

Ben Macartney
That's right. We can look on the cams. And.

Michael Frampton
You know, if it is pumping somewhere, Coastal Watch users will put photos up as well. So we can get an idea of what's happening around our area and down the coast just from looking at the cameras and user photos as well.

Ben Macartney
Yeah, there's plenty of that. There's no shortage of resources there. One of the final things I'd say is that there's so much potential data and sources of information to look at. I think it's just important to develop your own methodology and stick to it. In other words, you know, I mean, ideally Coastal Watch has all those tools on offer, whether it's the wave tracker where you can monitor wave period against swell and the different wave trains, as well as the detailed stuff I write. There's a lot there. But whatever it is that you use to forecast is to — I don't know — is to sort of stick with it. And that way you're constantly referencing the same data sets. I think that can be quite handy. Something I've stuck to over the years, and I do look at a lot of different things, but I have a sequence where I compare them to each other and it gives me an underlying impression of what's going on. But yeah, so I think it's very useful to cross-reference, but if you do it in a rigorous way, it can really give you a lot more confidence in what it's telling you.

Michael Frampton
Just before you go, what's your favourite surfboard at the moment?

Ben Macartney
I guess it's Pyzel. Pyzel. It's a Bastard. Yeah, that's the name of the board. I'm not calling it a bastard. But yeah, that's probably my favourite one that I've had for a while now.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Do you have a favourite surfer?

Ben Macartney
I think really Owen Wright. I know I'm saying that in light of his victory, his most recent victory on the Gold Coast, but he's been a big number one favourite of mine for a long time and been hanging out for his comeback. Just constantly digging around for news on how his recovery's been going. And so for me, that was just phenomenal to see him win. I really enjoy watching surfers like that who can draw such deep top-to-bottom turns without any wobbles or secondary turns. And it's just clean top-to-bottom surfing in such a critical part of the wave. And I guess I'm a bit old school in that sense. So I really just like that. But obviously, Owen's got a pretty good bag of tricks as well, so yeah.

Michael Frampton
All right, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, cheers.

Ben Macartney
Thanks, Mike. Thanks for having me. Awesome.

Michael Frampton
Thank you. All right, if you're listening to this before the 15th of April and you live in Victoria, there is a surf forecasting workshop with Macartney and Nick Carroll.

Michael Frampton
Awesome.

Michael Frampton
That's happening on Saturday, the 15th of April, 2017, between 3 and 5 p.m. at the Torquay Surf Life Saving Club. And you can just go onto Coastal Watch to get tickets. I will post a direct link to the event in both the show notes at surfmastery.com, episode 21, the show notes for this episode. It will be one of the more recent posts on the Surf Mastery Facebook page as well. I have links to some tutorials and articles on surf forecasting in the show notes as well. Thanks for tuning in to the Surf Mastery podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you —

Michael Frampton
Subscribe.

Michael Frampton
Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surf Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us —

Michael Frampton
Time. Keep surfing.

Michael Frampton
A little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time.

21 Ben Macartney - Surf Forecaster

Available On All Platforms:

Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Surfing, Self-Mastery, and the Art of Presence with Dr. Michael Gervais

What if surfing could teach you not just how to ride waves but how to master your mind and unlock a life of focus, presence, and resilience?

In this episode, high-performance psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais reveals how surfing serves as the ultimate "laboratory" for mastering focus, awareness, and emotional resilience. Whether you're chasing bigger waves or a more balanced life, discover how the lessons learned in the lineup translate into personal growth and fulfillment.

• Learn why mindfulness is a powerful tool for improving both your surfing and your life.

• Discover the essential "fundamental decision" that elite athletes make to orient their lives toward mastery.

• Explore how music, breathing, and awareness can transform your pre-surf routine into a mindset game-changer.

Listen to this episode to learn how to turn every surf session into a masterclass in mental focus, personal growth, and life mastery. Michael talks about how your mind affects your surfing, as well as surfing's effect on our minds. Mindfulness, flow state, being present, living in the now, awareness, in the zone, in the pocket, focus on 'now', meditation, mind-set, surfing philosophy. It's all in here, and it's all relative to surfing.

Notable Quotes

• "Surfing is the laboratory to figure out how you respond to the unpredictable."

• "Your craft—surfing, woodworking, anything—isn’t just something you do; it’s a way to reveal and refine who you are." 

• "The goal is not to have no thoughts but to be connected to the one thing that matters in this moment."

• "Until you make a fundamental decision about who you are and how you’re going to experience life, you’ll always be at the mercy of your environment." 

• "If you value your thoughts, you can choose what to do with them. The more you fight them, the harder it becomes."

Show Notes

http://findingmastery.net/

Key Points

• Michael Gervais shared how he got into high performance sports psychology through his experience as a competitive surfer in his youth.

• They discussed the contrast between free surfing and competitive surfing, and how the fear of judgment can create barriers to performance.

• Gervais explained the difference between the mind and the brain, and how the mind can shape the brain and vice versa.

• They talked about the importance of being present and focused in the moment, and how mindfulness practices can help train the mind.

• Gervais emphasized the need to make a fundamental decision about how one wants to experience life and what to set life efforts towards.

• They discussed the surfer's relationship to surfing and the importance of not letting surfing control one's life, but rather being in control of when and how to surf.

• Gervais shared his perspective on the commonalities among elite athletes, including their ability to be fully present and their fundamental orientation towards mastery.

• They explored the role of music in pre-performance preparation and how it can support an ideal mindset.

• Gervais provided advice for listeners who want to get better at surfing, including investing in the quality of one's mind, making fundamental decisions, and enhancing the ability to be present through practices like mindfulness.

Outline

Dr. Michael Gervais's Background

• Dr. Michael Gervais is a high-performance sports psychologist with a PhD in sports psychology.

• They work with elite athletes, including professional surfers, and host the Finding Mastery Podcast.

• Gervais brings a unique perspective to sports psychology as both a surfer and someone who works with elite-level surfers.

Journey into Sports Psychology

• Gervais's journey into high-performance sports psychology began with their own experiences as a young surfer.

• They excelled in free surfing but struggled in competitions.

• A pivotal moment occurred when they were 15 during a competition when an older surfer advised them to stop thinking about what could go wrong.

• This led Gervais to start focusing on what could go well, marking their first introduction to applied sports psychology.

• This experience sparked their interest in understanding the mind's role in performance, eventually leading them to pursue formal education in psychology and performance psychology.

Understanding the Brain and Mind

• The brain is the physical organ - three pounds of tissue in the skull with complex structures, chemicals, and functions that are not yet fully understood.

• The mind is more abstract and not directly observable, but it can be influenced and trained.

• Gervais believes the mind and brain are intimately connected but separate entities, with the mind capable of shaping the brain and vice versa.

• They describe the mind as the 'rider of the horse,' with the body and brain being the horse.

• The mind determines how individuals experience life, rather than merely reacting to experiences.

Mindfulness Practice

• Mindfulness is a practice of focusing intensely on the present moment, often through techniques like breath awareness.

• The goal of mindfulness is not to have no thoughts, but to be connected to one thing with great intensity.

• Awareness is the first step in mindfulness, followed by tools and training to bring focus back to the present moment.

• Gervais recommends starting with short sessions (1-2 minutes) and gradually increasing to 20 minutes for optimal results.

• They emphasize the importance of intensity in practice, but caution against confusing intensity with judgment.

Importance of Presence

• Being present is crucial for peak performance in surfing and other activities.

• Common barriers to presence include internal dialogues about not being good enough, perceived dangers, and fatigue.

• External factors like real danger or others' opinions can also interfere with presence.

• Gervais suggests that the path to mastery involves dedicating time to practice while maintaining control over when and how one engages in the activity.

Surfing as a Laboratory for Growth

• Gervais emphasizes that surfing should be viewed as a 'laboratory' for personal growth and self-understanding, rather than just a sport or hobby.

• They caution against allowing surfing to control one's life, advocating for a balance where the surfer chooses when and how to surf.

• The goal is to use surfing as a means to reveal and refine one's true self, rather than letting it define one's entire identity.

Common Traits Among Elite Athletes

• Elite athletes across different disciplines share many similarities, regardless of gender.

• They have become 'artistic' in their craft, with their tools feeling like extensions of themselves.

• They possess great awareness of their inner experience and can manipulate their mind and craft in various environments.

• Their drive for mastery is typically stronger than their desire for external recognition or rewards.

Recommendations for Personal Development

• Invest in the quality of your mind through awareness and skills to guide it.

• Make fundamental decisions about who you are and how you want to experience life.

• Enhance your ability to be present through practices like mindfulness and breathing work.

• Surround yourself with bright, knowledgeable people and be open to learning and looking 'stupid.'

Impact of Music on Performance

• Music can significantly impact mood and performance.

• The choice of music should support an individual's ideal mindset for their activity.

• The type of music that works best is highly individual and should be chosen based on how it enhances one's desired state of mind.

Transcription

 Relentless mental toughness to be here right now.
Welcome to the Surfing Mastery Podcast. We interview the world’s best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surf better.
And so, it's the craft that allows us to master the self.

Michael Frampton
My guest for this episode is Dr. Michael Gervais. Michael is a surfer from California and his PhD is in sports psychology. Michael is a high-performance sports psychologist. He works with a lot of elite athletes, including some of the surfers on tour. Michael has his own podcast called the Finding Mastery Podcast, and he has actually interviewed Ian Walsh and Kai Lenny, which, if you haven't listened to those interviews, definitely go and check them out. In fact, all of his interviews are amazing. His podcast is one of the better podcasts out there at the moment. Michael is both a surfer and works with elite-level surfers, so I think he brings a great perspective to that sports psychology realm.

Michael Frampton
Michael goes into what the mind is, and obviously how it relates to surfing and performance. But what else was really awesome that we covered in this interview was the surfer's relationship to surfing.

Michael Frampton
A topic that’s maybe not discussed enough, because I think a lot of—as surfers—we can often fall into the trap of surfing sort of ruling us, rather than, or when surfing is leading the surfer, rather than the surfer choosing when and how to surf. So we go into some detail about that, which I think is fascinating. I'll chime in at the end of this one and give my thoughts on the interview as well. Without further ado, Michael Gervais.

Michael Frampton
Can you tell me, Michael, how you got into high-performance sports psychology?

Michael Gervais
Yeah, sure. I guess the first part of that phrase doesn't come for a long time. It's like the high-performance stuff doesn't really begin to be understood until—man—it feels like, I don't know, 15, 20 years in to understanding what comes before high performance, which is just performance.
So the longer story, to kind of give full context, is that I grew up in Southern Los Angeles, and, well, I spent most of my young life here in Southern California and I surfed a lot. And the surfing was the thing that I did most—more than almost anything else. And I was like a good little surfer in high school for free surfing, and then as soon as it got time for competition, I just couldn't do it. Like, I didn't have the right mindset or framework, and I just was like significantly less skilled as soon as the competition got sorted out or started.

And so what I came to understand was—and this happened from a—I was in the middle of a heat, I was 15, surfing in the men's division, and this older guy paddles by me—older meaning he was probably like 35 years old or something like that, 30 years old or something—and he paddles by and he says, “Hey Gervais, I surf with you every day, I watch what you're doing, you gotta stop thinking about what could go wrong.” And like a good competitor, he just paddled off. And he left me with that little nugget but didn't tell me what to do—didn't tell me if I'm not supposed to think about what's going wrong, he didn't give me any advice or suggestions on what to do.
So I sat there like a little grom and just said, “Well, okay, well let me start thinking about what could go well.” And that was my first real introduction to applied sports psychology. And I had no idea that there was such a thing as a field or discipline or profession. And so I just started figuring out that I was—my mind was better suited when I was focusing on what could go well, as opposed to all the thoughts that were getting in the way of what could—what—yeah, no, let me say that more succinctly: I'm better when I'm focusing on what could go well rather than what could go wrong.

Michael Frampton
Okay, so the contrast that you felt between free surfing and competition surfing—I'm wondering, did you feel a similar contrast between a surf that you would have with a few friends at your local break and then a surfing session you might have, you know, at a place like Rincon or Trestles, where there's lots of better surfers and people on the beach watching? Did you feel a similar contrast?

Michael Gervais
No, it was different. It's like—that was fun. That part, I liked that. I liked going into new territory and figuring it out. And I enjoyed that, because I didn’t think—there was no formal evaluation. And I really didn’t care what somebody was thinking if they were in the water. I cared about the people on the beach. I don't know why. It’s like—that's something that—it was a gift my parents gave me that didn’t end up working very well. And, you know, so it was more that evaluation from the beach. God bless it.

Like, it took me way too long to figure that out and to find a sense of freedom from being able to stop giving a shit what people think of me—and at the same time still love them. And that tension and that separation between the two I think has been a lifelong challenge. And it’s like, there’s such freedom on the other side of it. At least there was for me. Because I felt like a tortured little soul as a young grom as well as a young adult.

Michael Frampton
So is it that fear of judgment that causes those barriers?

Michael Gervais
For me it was. And for sure, the science would support that. It's that I was so critical and hard on myself that—if you think about it in a Zen tradition—my cup was already full.
And then, as soon as I would just begin to think about other people cutting and carving and critiquing me, it just was like spilling over. So it really is that image of being able to empty my cup and know what that means and how to do it. That was this life journey that I tried to sort out from a formal education standpoint. And that helped. But it’s really—that helped, and I don’t want to downgrade that in any way. It helped to give me an understanding of what all the great scientists, all the great theorists, all the great students from a very learned and rigid perspective have contributed to the field of psychology and performance psychology.

And then that gave me the platform to go experiment even deeper with myself—putting myself in very rugged and hostile environments to see if I can be present and stop caring, really. To sort out—in those moments when it’s really heavy—whatever “heavy” means for each individual is different. But when it’s really heavy, that’s when we figure out really what our mind is made out of.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I mean, the reason I said that previous statement was because a lot of our listeners aren't competitive surfers, but I think even as free surfers or non-competitive surfers, we still feel the similar feelings of how judgment can affect our performance. Like, we usually surf our best when we're by ourselves or we're with a close group of friends, and there's often a lot of anxiety around surfing in front of better people or a crowded lineup where you kind of get shunned if you miss a wave or you mess up something. And is it the ability to be present and to really pay attention to the detail—sounds like that's the key to kind of overcome these barriers?
Well...

Michael Gervais
Yeah, and it sounds so trite to say it. It really does sound trite to say, you know, being present is the antidote or is the solution. It is for everything, and it's really hard. It's very difficult to do. And if we don't train our minds through focused strategies, the noise in the environment overrides our brain's primary function, which is survival. And so if there's noise or threat in the environment, real or perceived, it completely hijacks our survival mechanism inside of ourselves.

So, you know, it's like, yes, it sounds simple to say all you need to do is be present and to focus on the task at hand. But there's so many different variables in our own head, as well as in the environment, that trigger a very native and biological response to ignore the focus strategy and try to get the hell out of there. And so, you know, I just want to make sure that we land that it's hard to override your DNA. It's not that different than thinking about changing your posture. It's possible, but you've got to really work on it—relentlessly so.
So it's like, that's the type of commitment to learning how to become present that is required.

Michael Frampton
What are some of the most common barriers that get in the way of being present?

Michael Gervais
Well, there's two main themes, right? The first is the internal conversations that we have with ourselves about not being good enough, about danger that could take place. And it's the internal dialogue mostly around those two. And the third variable is fatigue.

So not fitting in or being good enough, real danger that we're sorting out in our head, and some sort of fatigue are most of the internal struggles—along with a fourth, if you're biologically born with some sort of attention deficit disorder, right? So those are kind of the internal processes that get in the way. And that's all inner dialogue stuff, really.

And then the external environment is when there's real danger out there. Whatever that danger is—whether it's what other people think of you, which is a very low form of danger but tends to be one of the most crippling forms of danger in modern times. In modern times, we're not, you know, yielding samurai swords or, you know, like in the cowboy days, some sort of gunfight on a regular basis. That's not what we have to deal with. Most of us are relatively safe, have a roof over our head, the majority of us have food that can sustain us, and a system of belonging that is intact.

So the perception outside—forgive me, the experience outside, the danger outside in surfing—when you're in conditions that are heavy, you know, people think that—I'm sorry, little rabbit hole here—people think that surfing is dangerous. And everyone listening to your podcast knows that most surf conditions are not dangerous. You know, there are those moments that it gets heavy, you know, but for the most part, you know, it's just not dangerous. At least that's been my experience. Unless you're surfing incredibly shallow slabs or reef breaks or—you know, I think there's this imaginary line where it becomes all business at like about double overhead, where you've really got to lock in.

But all of that being said, internal and external noise is the thing that gets in the way of the signal.

Michael Frampton
And what is the signal?

Michael Gervais
Being present.

Michael Frampton
And is being present something that we can do all of the time?

Michael Gervais
Theoretically, sure. Theoretically, yeah, that's possible. And that level of attainment is like what the sages have demonstrated. You know, whether you believe in prophets or living gods or whatever—whether it's Muhammad or Jesus or Buddha or the Dalai Lama in modern times—that is essentially what those stories and life efforts are about. They are the living expression of presence. And when that takes place, they end up transforming the world.

So that's rare. So I'm not—I guess that is the goal, but really, that is such rarefied space. There's handfuls of them across the, you know, millennia of human existence.
So I think that while that might be possible and is possible for all of us, it's more like, "Okay, how do I be present more often?" And to do that requires training—outside, I think, of rugged environments.

Now, I'll tell you this as well. One of the things that I've really been fortunate enough to learn from some of the most extreme and intense risk-takers in the world—people whose life and limb are at risk—is that they use hostile environments as a forcing function to be present.

So it's not that that's a shortcut, but when it's heavy—whatever that might be, whether it's free climbing, whether it's surfing in whatever conditions—but when it's really heavy for you, if you're not present, the best in the world talk about how it's way too dangerous and it forces their mind to be all in.

So—and that's on the extreme side of conditions. The other way to become more present is something that has been around for thousands of years—2,500, to be exact, as best we can tell—is some sort of mindfulness training, where you're sitting on a pillow, or standing, or eating mindfully, or walking mindfully, or breathing mindfully. And there's nothing hostile about that moment, other than the little noise that you have inside your head—that little conversation that can be brutal at times.

But those are the two ways that I understand best to be able to train focus.

Michael Frampton
Okay, so it's been said that there is nothing but this present moment. So technically speaking, we can't really live outside of the present moment, but I think maybe what you're trying to get at is that if, during that present moment, you're thinking about something going wrong in the future or something that has gone wrong in the past, then that is somehow occupying space and time in the mind and sort of clogging up your random access memory to actually be aware of what is going on now. Am I right in saying that? Yes.

Michael Gervais
So "there is nothing other than the present moment" is a beautiful way to think about it. And so the Zen traditions will talk about being at the center of now. And there’s a more mechanical way to think about it, and people will talk about how your mind can go one of three places: it can go to the past, or the future, or now. That’s one way to think about it, but that’s a very mechanical thought. And through quantum math and physics and advanced philosophical discussions with some real science backing, there just might be more than one universe that we don’t know about—but that's a rabbit hole that I'm not skilled enough to go down.

So the way that I understand the present moment is that there is only this moment. Now, let’s talk about the quality of being on time. And the Zen traditions, again, will talk about being at the center of now. And musicians will talk about being on time—that’s another way of thinking about it.

So if your mind is fully consumed with the one thing that you're doing now, and then again now, then you're on time or at the center of now. And if some of your mental activity is thinking about what could go wrong, or has gone wrong, or anything other than being completely absorbed in now, then it’s like we’ve fragged the hard drive. We’ve created some sort of parsing that pulls us from being completely at the center of now. We can still be productive, we can still perform very well, but it doesn’t mean that we’re at our true best—because that is a rare thing to do, to have what, again, I’ll go back to some of the Zen traditions, call “no mind,” where there are no thoughts. It’s just a complete dictating or response to the conditions of the environment—now and again, now.

Michael Frampton
So the self-talk you mentioned before is something that sort of gets in the way of being in the center of now. Is self-talk something that can be stopped, or is it just changed and minimized?

Michael Gervais
So self-talk doesn't necessarily get in the way. It's the thing that brings us to it as well.
So self-talk—if it’s negative, critical, frustrating, doubt—if it’s any of that type of stuff, then it pulls us away. So the most mechanical and simplest way that I’ve come to learn from good science and from those in the amphitheater of danger is that there are two basic minds. There’s the negative mind and the positive mind. Let’s just make it really simple.

And the negative mind—let me say this more clearly—negative mind, positive mind. And if you can hang out in positive mind long enough—and that doesn’t mean like, “let’s hold hands and go skipping,” be all positive—but positive mind, which is more about focusing on now or what could be great. It’s like this relentless mental toughness to be here right now, even when it’s going sideways. If you can hang out in that space long enough, you slip into the third mind, which is called “no mind.”

So the work is to recognize when you're in a negative mind—to fight, or let go, or trust, or somehow shift your mind or the quality of your thoughts over to positive mind. And if you can just hang out there long enough, you’ll accidentally slip into that thing that, from a science perspective, we call flow state. Athletes for years have talked about “the zone,” musicians talk about it as “being in the pocket,” and the Zen traditions talk about it as “mu shen” or “no mind.”

Michael Frampton
Now, when it comes to flow states—to use that term—it’s quite an intense mixture of neurochemistry going on. Does our physical body need to recover from that flow state, or is that something that we can always sort of strive to get more and more of?

Michael Gervais
Well, anytime that we have a dramatic shift in our internal ecosystem and there’s a pendulum that’s moved in one direction—whether it’s fight or flight, or flow state, or submission, or freezing—whenever there’s been a significant shift to respond to the demands of the environment, there is a pendulum that swings the equal and opposite direction. So yes, there’s five responses, and most people only talk about two when it comes to high-risk scenarios. Most people talk about fight and flight. But again, there’s submission and freezing and flow state that can happen.

So when we have an intense internal response and the sympathetic nervous system is kicked on, and all of the neurochemicals in our brain that are phenomenal and highly addictive—dopamine, serotonin, anandamide, endorphins, all that really good stuff that kicks on—our body has to do something with it. And so we need to push it out and flood it. And so that is the recovery, or the exhaust, if you will.

And we do know that people who produce too much adrenaline, they find themselves in a condition of adrenal fatigue. And so people that come back from war, or people that are video gamers—like junkie video gamers—or extreme athletes that are really looking for the thrill as opposed to craft development, and they’re looking for a thrill in everything they do—they burn out their adrenal system.

And so that’s a dramatic way to think about a long-term recovery process. But yes, in every microcycle of flow—the thought, and Stephen Kotler, a good friend of mine, has really found some groundbreaking ideas and research around this—that there is a recovery phase involved in the most optimal state a human being can be in.

Now, that really is when you’re using thrill as a way, or risk as a way, to hijack the intense focus systems inside of our body, both structurally and neurochemically. Because I don’t think that if you’ve reached this level of mastery that we’re talking about—the sages reaching—that there’s a recovery, like a massive recovery dump, that they need to deal with.

Michael Frampton
So there’s quite a difference between going from one extreme flow state to another, as in like an adrenaline seeker, and then you’ve got the athlete or the person that’s truly on the path of mastery in learning their craft?

Michael Gervais
You know, I think we’re too early in the conversation to really know, but that’s an initial hunch that I have. And I’d be curious to hear some of your guests and some of your listeners—their thought. But that’s my early hunch in the difference in the quality and the tone and the methodology to reach flow state or no mind.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, because there’s a bit of a culture in, sort of, the extreme sports world that is, you know, “I want to enter flow as deeply as possible and that’s how I’m going to learn and grow the fastest.” Do you agree with that statement?

Michael Gervais
I think it’s a fantastic approach, and there’s a cost to it—because if you don’t enter it, you get hurt. Right? And it still doesn’t mean if you enter flow state that you’re going to not be hurt, because sometimes Mother Nature is so unpredictable and so severe in consequences that things happen. We can go on and on about what that could mean, but you can get a picture in your own mind about how there’s real danger, even if you’re in flow state.

So yeah, that’s one way. And I think it’s something that the people who have been on the other side of seeking no mind—like the mindfulness, the contemplative meditators, or single-point meditators—have been doing for a long time.
Like, they need a little bit of the risk-taking piece. And the risk-taking and the type T—was an old term for “type thrill,” you know, there’s type A, type B, whatever personalities—well, the type T probably need a little bit more of the sitting.

And so there’s probably a harmony that we can find on some kind of level. But I don’t think we could say that absolutely there’s only one way, but there’s probably a blend that we could all work on figuring out that’s more optimal for us.

Michael Frampton
What's the difference between mind and brain?

Michael Gervais
Well, so we'll start with the mechanical first. The brain is that three pounds of silly putty that sits in your skull, and it's literally tissue. And inside of that tissue, it's very complicated. Myself—I feel like I'm a novice and I've been studying it a long time—but people that all they do is study the anatomy and neurochemical and neurostructural parts of the brain are saying the same exact thing. Like, it's this amazing three pounds of tissue that we're not sure exactly how it works. We know there's chemicals involved. We know that there are structures and regions and functions that are somewhat predictable. But at the same time, it's like it's the beginning of the Wild West. And with the advent of great science to be able to see—functional MRI, magnetic resonance imaging—we're starting to learn more about it. And we can get some color graphs from the actual structures of the brain. It's a phenomenal time to be interested in the brain, both from a structural and a functional and a chemical standpoint. And so that's what the brain is.

Then the mind—now there's a great, beautiful conversation slash debate about what the mind is. And it's been around for a long time. And I'd say probably like 15 years ago, the buzz in neuroscience—or neuroscience, meaning like primarily interested in the tissue and the brain and the structures—there were some leading thinkers in that space that would say there's no such thing as the mind. It's just the artifact from neurochemical and structural occurrences that are—I'm sorry, not structural but functional occurrences—that are happening in the brain. There's no mind. There's no rider of the elephant, so to speak, or rider of the horse. That's just a figment of your imagination to try to explain this thing of personality or this thing of psychology or this artifact. They would say the mind is an artifact from the neurochemical and activity of the brain.

And so I don't see it that way. I do not see it that way. I see that the mind and the brain are intimately connected, and that the mind is not an artifact of the brain. It is intimately connected, but the mind is something that we cannot see, and therefore we really don't know what it is. But we can observe it, and we can impact it and change it and guide it. And so that is like the watchmaker's watchmaker—that idea that we have this part of us that we can't see, but we know is true. And it's not just the flare, this uncontrollable flare from a brain response, but it is something separate, but intimately related to the nervous system, to the structure of the brain, and can impact neurochemical responses when we're skilled at it.

So I see them as separate. And I see that our mind can shape our brain, and our brain can shape our mind. And so it's this beautiful interplay and interaction between the two.

Michael Frampton
So is the mind both—it can be aware of itself but change itself?

Michael Gervais
Yeah, for sure. And that's where this gets really complicated. Like, how does the watchmaker’s watchmaker control and change things? Like, where does it start and end? And it gets really confusing. And like, if you think about some of the ancient texts—this is a line from Christianity—when they asked Jesus, they said, “Who are you?” Like, “Who the hell do you think you are,” basically. And he said, “I am the I am.”

And so, I mean, we can go down a serious rabbit hole, Michael, about this. Like what—like, this is a conversation about consciousness, which is very complicated. And just to play this game, just for a moment—it's like, when you say, “I am Michael,” who is the “I”?

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Michael Gervais
You know? And there's a rabbit hole to go play down. And for anyone that's, like, intrigued by it, I implore—that is a wonderfully complicated and challenging and somewhat overwhelming question to begin to answer. And it is one of the most fundamental mindfulness questions in the tradition of meditation, is to ask yourself the question, in a mindfulness kind of state: “Who am I?” And that’s been around for a long time. And so I think it’s an important question to entertain at some level, but just knowing it can be a rabbit hole that can take us to a place that is really confusing.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, let’s maybe bring it back a little bit. So, another way to put it, maybe—this is what I’m thinking—is the mind kind of a filter between sensory and motor?

Michael Gervais
Yeah, you could think of it that way. I think of it a little bit differently. So, the filter is kind of like what the neuroscientists would say—the mind is an artifact. And it's just this thing that is—of course you think it's there, because it's just based on sensory or motor information. And you have to be able to understand sensory and motor information in some kind of way.

I think the mind is different. I think that the mind—for me, the way I've come to understand the mind—is that it is the horse rider of the horse. So the horse is the body and the brain, and the horse rider is the guider of it. So the mind—you—let's make this more concrete: you determine the experience in life, as opposed to being a responsive body of tissue that is reacting only to the experiences in life.

More concretely, when you look out at the surfing line, you dictate the thoughts about the surf break and the conditions. And what I'm talking about there is that you are the mind. And if you’re really aware of your thoughts and your belief systems, then you can impact and change and influence the quality and efficiency of the tissue inside your body.

Michael Frampton
And when you get—And how do we do that?

Michael Gervais
Awareness.

Michael Frampton
What’s the strategy?

Michael Gervais
Yeah, it begins with awareness. And the first—so awareness of the inner dialogue, awareness of the way that you respond automatically to a condition or an experience or a circumstance. Because if you haven't trained your mind, you do become almost like this—I don't know—sleepwalking, responsive human being that is kind of non, sub-awake, you know? And it's because you haven't put in the work to think about or be aware of, “How do I want to experience said moment,” whatever that moment is.

And so it begins with awareness. But prior to awareness—because awareness is a skill—it does begin with a fundamental decision. And that decision is—and there's no bullshit around this—like, it starts with the decision that you have to make. And that decision is: What and how am I going to experience life?

So how do I want to experience life, and what am I going to set my life efforts towards? So it's the how and the what. And without that fundamental decision, I don't know another way to help people. And most people that are not in dangerous environments, or on world-leading or even world-class—just a tick under world-leading—is that most, if not all of them, have really sorted that decision out. And the rest of us are just trying to figure out how to get over today or how to get by today, and have not set and made that fundamental decision about who they are and where they’re going, really.

Michael Frampton
So are you saying that's the foundation? Yeah.

Michael Gervais
And then once we make that—otherwise, seriously, I think we're really just bullshitting our way through life. If we're not careful, people will try to keep asking for the tactics. How do you do that? How are you present? How are you so poised? How? Which is great. And that question is really about the tactic. It's like we're in this age of wanting a shortcut or a hack. And there are no hacks for this. There are no shortcuts for this. Being present and focused in emotionally risky environments—or physically risky environments, by the way, there's no such thing as mentally risky, it's either emotional or physical—to be poised and present in those moments requires a fundamental decision first, and then subsequent training of the mind.

And so once the decision is made, then the second is that the training begins with better awareness, with increasing your awareness of your physiological experience and your psychological experience. And you can change both of them. You can impact both of them. And I'm sorry if it's like—I'm just so sick and tired, seriously, of like the seven steps to whatever, the three most essentials, whatever. There are no seven steps. It is a fundamental orientation to organize your life based on the decision of how and what you're gonna pursue as a life effort. And until that, it's just all made-up softness.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I totally agree. There's a quote I love, and that's, "If the why is big enough, the hows will look after themselves."

Michael Gervais
Yeah, there you go.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And me personally, I went through a stage of my life where I thought, okay, surfing's just my hobby or my sport or my pastime. And when I made that decision to make surfing a priority and just to really own it and live it and love it and master it, then I found that everything else in my life fell into place better.
So sort of deep down, I guess I knew there was always that desire and that just sort of—it's almost indescribable how much love I have for surfing. And it wasn't until I really owned that I saw things start to come together.

Michael Gervais
There you go. There you go. Fundamental decision.
You know, like fundamental decision.

Michael Frampton
And are you finding similar stories with some of the elite athletes you work with?

Michael Gervais
Really. Uncommonly so. It is a relentless—now I'm talking about the 0.00005 percenters in the world. Like, that is a common thread for almost all of them, seriously. And so it's just like—sometimes I need like a two-by-four over the back of the head to really get the thread. And that one is an easy one to grab.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And I guess it's easy for us to imagine ourselves—you know, if we were an elite athlete—how committed we could be to that.
Like, for example—I mean, you interviewed Ian Walsh. I mean, Ian Walsh is obviously an amazing surfer, but we often don't realize how much time, effort, thought, love went into—you know, went into that.

And then—but then we think of our own lives and we think, man, you know, you either go down that path and you forego the rest of your life, or somehow you integrate some of that into your surfing life, yet still maintain a balance of, you know, work obligations and family life. And the question I have around that statement is: is it right for us to wake up in the morning and be motivated by our love of surfing, or is that pushing things too far?

Michael Gervais
I think that's a complicated question, you know, because I want to kind of pull it apart just a little bit. But let me start with the most simple answer. And the most simple answer is that the thing that we do can never define who we are, but it's the activity that helps us express and realize who we are at our potential—you know, I'm sorry, at our center. And so it's the craft that allows us to master the self.

And if we're not careful, we miss that, and we become just a surfer. And that is an awful thing to be able to—awful limiting thing to be able to do, you know? And I could talk a lot more about that because I don't want to sound judgmental about it, but we are so much more than just the thing we do. But the craft is the way that we reveal and refine and understand better who we really are, so that—this is me talking, there's no science around this—so that we can be connected in relationships.

So it's through—this is again, Mike talking here—it's through relationships that we become who we are. Through relationships with ourself, through relationships with nature, through relationships with others, through relationships with our craft. And it's that interplay between the two that really teaches us everything about who we really are.

So I think—I do think the simple answer to your question is yes. But I don't think that it's simple to do. I think that there needs to be some sort of sophistication about like, what are you really doing in this world? If it is just to surf, I find that those people end up really struggling in other parts of their life. Or if it's just to be a basketball player or whatever—like when they're not doing that thing, or they're too old to really do that thing well—then the other parts of their life struggle.

And we can see that, case in point, in the NFL—the National Football League in America—is that according to research, 87% of NFLers within two years are broke or divorced or both. And so they had meaning, they had rich meaning while they were in the highest form of American football. And it was real simple why they got up every day and worked so frickin' hard every day in and day out. And football is a very complicated, rugged learning environment.

And then, if they miss the kind of stitching of, “Wow, meaning and purpose is really cool. What is my meaning and purpose in life outside of ball?” Then they struggle, and they struggle deeply after the circus moves on without them.
And so it's a long way, I think, to answer your really beautiful question.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, it's a tricky topic to articulate and talk about. So even someone who's a professional football player, who's being paid a lot of money to be not just the best football player they can be, but to improve and help lift the team—are you kind of saying that when that person is, or that person still needs to have some sort of balance and time away from football?

Michael Gervais
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of people that—there's that common idea that you have to think about it everywhere you go, you have to eat, breathe, whatever, sleep about it. No, I mean, it just—life doesn't work that way.
Like, yes, I think what they're trying to say is that there is a required deep commitment to learning and a deep commitment to risk-taking and sorting things out and practice, and being like really dedicated to dedicating an ample amount of intensity and time every day to refine the craft. Yes.

And there are so many other parts of life that both are required—that require watering of those parts of life—and are fulfilling and are emotionally meaningful, that without them, we become these shells.
And so I don't think that the simplicity of the idea that you have to eat, think, whatever, just about the thing you do is the answer to becoming a very dynamic and maybe master of craft.

Michael Frampton
Okay, so the path to mastery doesn't necessarily mean that surfing controls your life. It means that you are dedicating a certain amount of time to mastering surfing, but you're in control of when you surf and when you think about surfing so that there's a balance.

Michael Gervais
Well, I think that surfing is the laboratory. And so it's like, you go out and just have a great time and not catch many waves, that's fine. You can go out and have a great time and really be on point on your surfing. But surfing is a laboratory to figure out how you respond to the unpredictable, how you value structuring time. It's like, it's the laboratory. And I'm not sure I know how to help anybody have balance in life, because it's just challenging to have balance. I don't know anyone on the world stage that has balance. But what I have come to understand and learn from them is that when they're in the thing that they're in, they're all in. And that could be a conversation, or it could be dropping into a wave. Like, they've figured out to maximize their life experience, they need to be in. And that goes back to where we started this conversation about working and training to be in the center of now. And so...

Michael Frampton
So if surfing is the laboratory for increasing our time in the center of now, by getting better at that while we're surfing, is that then gonna help us to be more in the center of now when we're having dinner with our friends?

Michael Gervais
Only if you value the experience or the experiences when you are fully present. So you can—if, like, if it is a laboratory to be at the center of now, and because you just want to surf better—then when you get out of the water, you can become extremely agitated because you're not surfing, or the surf is whatever. Like, so it's like, at the first surface level, it's not just about becoming a better surfer. Yeah, that's good. I love it. I love that. It just happens that you and I both enjoy surfing. But what's underneath of that is the joy of progression, the joy of learning, the joy of growing, the joy of straining and striving and letting go and trusting. All of that is—it just so happens that we both enjoy surfing. It could be tennis, it could be woodworking, it could be steelmaking, it could be anything. And if it's just about doing that thing better, then when we're not doing that thing, when we're at home at dinner, it's very easy to not translate or stitch those learnings into everyday living. And they tend to be very tortured people. And you hear things like, "I'm miserable. The surfing has been flat." Whoa. Wow, so the environment dictates your experience. Okay, that's interesting. That doesn't sound very strong. It doesn't sound very resilient. It sounds, actually, that you're a victim to your environment.

Michael Frampton
Exactly, and it's so common with surfing—very common. Yeah.
So there's something deeper than surfing mastery, and that's life mastery.

Michael Gervais
Well, yeah. I mean, so again, the premise is that whatever the craft is—whatever the hobby is, if you want to take it in that direction—whatever the thing is that we're doing is meant to be the laboratory to sort out really who we are and how we can improve being able to be on time or to be at the center of now, to be more present, to be more focused or committed, which are all sub-characteristics of people that are able to enjoy the life experience rather than being agitated and irritated or scared or frustrated or overwhelmed because the environment is not giving them what they think that they deserve or need.

Michael Frampton
Wow, a lot of food for thought there.

Michael Gervais
You know, it's funny, Michael. Obviously, we were just meeting, and after I say something, I feel like you're going, "Okay, dude, what the hell did you just say? Like, I don't even know what to make of that."
So I'm sorry if I'm being too esoteric, but...

Michael Frampton
Not at all, man. This is almost turning into like a personal therapy session. But I think a lot of surfers can identify with what I'm talking about because, yeah, because surfing can be so all-consuming.

Michael Gervais
No. No, surfing can't. It's that the person that does surfing—and then now change that to the person that does mountaineering or the person that does skiing. Like, it's the person that allows their environment to dictate their experience that loses. And so if you just happen to be a surfer and you're looking to the conditions to set your mind, you've missed—we have missed it. And so we call it mindset, right? But really it's about us setting our mind on how and what we want to do. Go back to that fundamental decision. And until you make that fundamental decision, we just end up being at the whips' end of the environmental conditions. "Look at it, it's flat again," or, "It's blown out." "Damn it, I had to go do that thing at work and I couldn't get out in time," or, "I had that call."

Like, that's just a disaster. Yeah. And so I think that is—this is gonna sound judgmental in some kind of way—but I've lived it, and so I feel like because I've lived it so deeply, I've been—not damaged by it—but like really struggled through this, it's a lazy way to go through life, to need an external condition for the internal to be okay. And the people that survived—I'm gonna go heavy for just a minute—the people that survived Auschwitz, the people that survived the most brutal conditions known to man, what they have come to learn is that they had to dictate their experience in life to find joy, peace, and happiness in the worst conditions. And the most beautiful book, game-changing book, that I hope that you—hopefully you’ve read or many of your folks have been exposed to—is Viktor Frankl's book called Man's Search for Meaning. And the first half of that book fundamentally altered how I understood the human condition, and it is rad.

Michael Frampton
Okay, I haven't read that one. It's on the list now, definitely.

Michael Gervais
Yeah, I think you'll really enjoy it.

Michael Frampton
It smells like you're pointing towards something within our mind that's constant, that we can always fall...

Michael Frampton
...back on.

Michael Gervais
Well, yeah. So we are always with ourselves. Our mind goes everywhere we go. And so I don't—really, there's only three things as humans we can train. And I'll put an asterisk to maybe a fourth, but for sure I know that there's only three things we can train. We can train our body, we can train our craft, and we can train our mind. And if you're only training your craft, or just training your body and your craft, we are missing a fundamental pillar. And so our mind goes everywhere we go, and our mind is that—if you want to call it a filter, or the interpreter of the experience, or the dictator of experience—then we're just missing a huge opportunity.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, let's bring it back to something a little practical, and I wanna use an example from my own surfing life to kind of pull at this. A few weeks ago, I was on my way to go for a surfing, and when I pulled up, I checked my emails. And I got an email saying, "Hey, your car registration is due. You know, you need to re-register your car." And then I was like, "Okay, yeah, that's fine, I'll do that today."
And then when I went out surfing, I was sitting in the water waiting for a wave, and the fact that my car needs to be registered is like just occupying space and time in my mind. And then when a wave came, that thought and those thoughts were slowing me down, is how it felt—taking away some of my surfing or wave awareness.
So when I find myself back in a situation similar to that, what do I do?

Michael Gervais
Well, you must have like a really nice car. No.
Yeah, like that's interesting that thought would be the thing that gets in the way of—

Michael Frampton
The point is, it's, you know, sometimes when we're sitting out the back surfing, it's those little thoughts that, because we're sitting there and waiting for a wave, we start thinking about other things in our lives, and we don't stay present and watching the ocean and ready to react. And then sometimes we get caught up in that thread. And when a wave does come, we can't switch back to the wave.

Michael Gervais
Yeah, that's like being on the edge of now, or your mind in the more mechanical way is like your mind is ahead of time. Like you're thinking about other stuff, right? And so you miss, you're just not on time with this moment. And so you're half a second late popping up, or you miss, you know, the spot you wanna be, or whatever.
So—yeah, so that's fine that you're—the natural state of our mind is like a drunk monkey. It's curious and sloppy and all over the place. And so if we just begin to have a relationship with that drunk monkey and say, "Look at you thinking about the car. Okay, come on back to now, here we go, come on back." And you just recenter—I'm sorry—refocus on something now, totally cool. Or entertain it. Entertain the thought, knowing that you just might miss something that's happening out the back, but entertain the thought like, "Okay, when I—and make a plan—like, okay, when I get home, first thing I'm gonna do, so I don't forget it, I'm gonna do A, B, and C. Make sure I lick the stamp, put it in—bang, okay, done."
Now you don't have to think about it anymore. And if it does come up again, you can just say, "You know, okay, I'm done with you. Come on back to now."
So it's like, it's not a big deal if we have a relationship with how our mind works. But if we don't—so you had like, you had that kind of first step I was talking about, you had awareness, but then didn't have the second step, which is maybe the skill or the tool to do something with it. And if you don't practice it, then it can feel like it's really overwhelming because we haven't built the skill on how to refocus.

Michael Frampton
So you mentioned mindfulness. Is that how we practice the skill of awareness?

Michael Gervais
That's one way. Sure, it certainly is. And it's very—let's call it efficient—because it's the only thing that you're doing in a present moment is focusing on now. And so it's a really efficient training because as soon as your mind wanders, then you simply just refocus back to now, again and again, a thousand times, over and over again. And the goal is not to have no mind—that's not the goal, that's an accident. The goal is not to have no thoughts—that's an accident. The goal is to be connected to the one thing with great intensity. And that one thing can be very boring or very risky, such as the free climber or the base jumper, or it can be very boring, such as focusing on a breathing—I'm sorry—one breath at a time, or a flickering candle or a mantra or whatever.
And so those are kind of like the two ways to train mindfulness. Another way to train your mind is to value that your thoughts matter. And so when you're out the back and you notice that you're thinking about something and it's creating an emotional response, then you just kind of go like, "Cool."
And then you make a decision. Do I wanna keep going with that? Is that the thing I wanna focus on? Because maybe that's a cool thing to focus on.
I mean, sometimes it feels like you wanna be a machine and catch every fricking wave, but other times it's like, no, let's not do that. I know there's six-minute lulls, so I don't need to focus on every little glimmer of the water on the horizon or the slapping of my board underneath the current right now. I can focus on taxes. I could focus on a problem I'm trying to sort out. I could focus on how I wanna do my relationship with my loved one.
So I don't wanna be esoteric, but it's a basic strategy just to value your thoughts. And then when you have them, you make a decision on what you wanna do with them. And I will tell you, the more you fight, the harder it becomes. If you say, "Son of a—there's that fricking thought of my car registration. God bless it, what's wrong with me?" Now you're having a conversation that's just about frustration. It's a frustrating experience that you have created based on your interpretation of the meaning of your mind's activity focusing on that thing—that registration.

Michael Frampton
So is awareness meant to be judgment-free?

Michael Gervais
Well, awareness is like the first step. And a lot of people are pretty aware of their thoughts—like, pretty aware—but then don't have the second thing, which is the tools or the trainings to bring it back to now. And if the whole thing about judgment—like, there's a really deep conversation we can have about positive regard, nonjudgmental, noncritical mind with this whole thing. There's a whole deep thing that we can do about that from a spiritual frame point. But from a performance standpoint, that noncritical or nonjudgmental approach to thoughts, it's like—it's just removing a step to get back to now.
Because if I notice that my mind is thinking about my car registration, and then I say, "There I go again," it's like I've just added another layer to coming back to focusing on, I don't know, maybe the sun on my cheek or something as simple as that.
So it does open the door for a train of thought that might not be very productive. And literally, I mean, we talk about that thing—train of thought. And if we're not careful, our mind is like a fast-moving train that will take us somewhere. It might not be the place we wanna necessarily be.

Michael Frampton
If there's anyone out there listening that's inspired to do some mindfulness awareness practice, do you have a book or some online content or anything like that you could point us in the direction of?

Michael Gervais
Yeah, I've been too busy doing it. I wish I had some of the bandwidth to write and capture it. And I'm making a commitment to do so in the future. But there's great books out there. And people—like more Western thinkers—want to go read about something and like really understand it before they do it. And I bet you didn't learn surfing that way. I bet you had a couple of your buddies that kind of paddled out, showed you how to put your leash on, and just kind of—you followed them out and then figured it out. I don't know, like, that's how most people learn surfing.
You know, and then maybe they get some coaching. So my thought is to go do the fricking thing.
And then if you want to read about it, that's cool. But it's not about acquiring more knowledge at some point. It's as simple as: if something in this conversation has been touching and you're like, "Man, I need—I'm craving to be more present in my life because I'm overwhelmed, I'm tired, I'm unprepared to deal with the [stuff] in my life, and I'm fidgety and anxious and I don't want it anymore. I just don't want to live that way anymore," then if you're feeling in some kind of way those things, then you might just, I don't know, borrow my experience and say mindfulness fundamentally changed my life.
And it's as simple as focusing on one breath at a time for an extended period of time, over and over again, as if a loved one depended on you getting the inhale right, then the exhale right. And if you could set a timer for one minute, you'd be on your way. If you could do it for two minutes, you're doing a little bit better. If you could do it for 20 minutes, pretty epic.
Research would suggest that six minutes a day is a minimally effective dose, and 20 minutes is more optimal. And so—but it's not about just the time. Of course, it's about the quality. And so that's it. One breath at a time. And if you could add a little nuance there, you'd have your exhale be a little bit longer than your inhale, and you'd just fricking own it like as if that's the only thing that mattered.

Michael Frampton
Okay, so there's a certain amount of intensity or a quality behind it.

Michael Gervais
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
And how do we balance—can you be too intense with that sort of practice though?

Michael Frampton
Yes.

Michael Gervais
Yeah, of course you can.

Michael Frampton
Any guidelines for finding a balance of?

Michael Gervais
Yeah, most people are not too intense. Most people's minds and brains and body get tired so fast that the intensity's not gonna be—over-intensity's not gonna be the problem. The challenge is gonna be what do you do when, after the first inhale, your mind has already gone to, "Am I doing this right?" Because now that's you pulling out of the center. And so the work is refocusing with great intensity back to this moment without critique.
So let's not confuse intensity and judgment. Let's not confuse those two. Okay?

Michael Frampton
How are elite surfing different from other elite athletes you—

Michael Frampton
Work with?

Michael Gervais
They're not.

Michael Frampton
Not at all?

Michael Gervais
I mean, the best of the best in any discipline are so similar. And it's gender-neutral too. And I'm talking about—you said elite—so I'm thinking about the ones that have changed the way the world works in their craft. They're not different. Those people are all uniquely themselves. And that's the common thread. They have become artistic because their tool feels as if it's an extension of themselves. And they have great awareness of their inner experience, and they're able to play with their mind and their craft in quiet moments, rugged moments, and hostile environments. And is it always easy? No, hell no it's not easy. But they are more alike than they are dissimilar.

Michael Frampton
Interesting. And some of the—you mentioned, well their likeness and the commonality that’s ubiquitous throughout elite athletes, does that come back to the why and the love of their craft?

Michael Gervais
Yeah, so like the fundamental decision? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Very few on the world stage are agitated, if you will.
So, world-leading. Very few are agitated that they still have to do the thing. That being said, it doesn't mean that fatigue doesn't get in the way. It doesn't mean that burnout and staleness are not part of the equation. But they have fundamentally orientated their life towards mastery. And it's—for most of them, and I'm talking about the half-a-half-of-percenters—they're not doing it for money and fame and whatever. There are some that love that too. But the internal drive and the hunger for mastery is far greater than the external. And so the external need—or the need for external recognition or reward—

Michael Frampton
That's secondary.

Michael Gervais
It doesn't mean it can't be high. It just isn't as high.
Yeah. And again, there's nothing wrong with great risk-takers.
You know, there's no judgment or critique about that. But if that's the primary driver, as soon as you get it, you gotta get onto something else.
Yeah. God, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Can you describe your relationship with the ocean?

Michael Gervais
It is—it's where I sort everything out. I'm a better human when I'm connected to it. And it's where I really—it's my working laboratory, as I talked about before.
So my relationship is—it's a love affair. And I don't wanna sound cheesy or whatever about it, but I love the way I feel when I'm a little salty, when I feel some—you know—the rhythms of Mother Nature. And Mother Nature is just so awe-inspiring. It challenges both, you know, the parts of our brain that are working to understand shape and dimension, as well as logic and sequence. And so the brain is animated in a really cool way when we're out in the ocean, especially when there's some risk or danger involved. And it's just a great laboratory for how the mind works as well. And so, for me, it feels really good to my body, and it becomes a place where I can sort out how thinking is—really works.

Michael Frampton
Nice. And do you currently have a favorite surfboard?

Michael Gervais
Yeah, whichever one I'm on. Yeah, I mean, are you asking like the board that I ride most often?
Yeah. Yeah, Channel Islands.
You know, it's a local—to Southern California, or California. So I ride a lot of his work, Al Merrick and whatnot.
Yeah. You know, I'm fortunate enough to know a lot of guys on tour.

Michael Frampton
Okay. And do you have a favorite surfing?

Michael Gervais
And I think that—I wanna not answer that question.

Michael Frampton
Yep, fair enough. Yeah. What about a favorite surfing film or movie?

Michael Gervais
You know, first one that came to mind was Blazing Boards. And that's gonna date my experience. It was a VHS film way back. And I think I wore that tape out with my buddies. And it was just kind of a classic surfing film, you know, looking at like Tom Curren and Mark Acaluho, you know, in some classic matchups. And so Blazing Boards—that's the one that comes to mind.
And then, you know, I love stuff like John Florence's new movie.
Yeah.
So, you know, I'll go back and forward, but Blazing Boards.

Michael Frampton
Yep, okay. Now, do you personally—and I'm asking whether you recommend it for your athletes—the relationship between pre-performance and music. Is there anything going on there?

Michael Gervais
For sure. One thousand percent. We know from a science perspective that music impacts mood. And yeah, for sure. And so the first order of business is, if you're like—if you want to maximize your experience in life and/or surfing—let's call it the session, if you will. It's one of the ways that we front-load the maximizing of that experience, is to know what your ideal mindset is.
And so if you can identify and target what your ideal mindset is, then everything you do right before you get into the water is to switch that thing on and to get that thing to be reliable. And not at the—again—not at the whips end of a bad wave or a comment by another person or a score or whatever. And so you dictate your—you set your mind and you dictate it.
And so once you know your ideal mindset, then everything you do beforehand—whether it’s a little jog, a little warmup, push-ups, whatever, some yoga stuff that you might do on the sand or not, you throw your leash on and you just go charge.
But if there's music involved in it, the purpose of music is to help support that sustainability of your ideal mindset.

Michael Frampton
That's a good way to put—

Michael Frampton
It. And that's obviously—the choice of music is completely individual, or is there science behind particular types of music?

Michael Gervais
Totally individual. Now, well, you know what? I don't know if I'm speaking out of turn, but my—I'm not deep into the science of music and physiology, but I know that it does impact mood. And so I think it's completely individualistic. And so whatever puts you—there's a particular way that people carry themselves when they're connected to their ideal mindset. And so—and that's unique to each person. And so the music ought to enhance that. So like if—and just to make it really concrete—if you get easily keyed up and kind of wound up, you don't want to put in Tool or Metallica or some, you know, Rage Against the Machine. That's not what you want. You know, you want something more chill, more melodic. But if you like having a crazy kind of vibrant edge and intensity, well then get some of that edge going and play that music. Yeah, but first you gotta know what you're searching for.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Okay. We're running out of time, Michael, but do you have any for those listeners out there who want to get better at surfing?

Michael Gervais
Yeah, the first order of business is, like, invest in the quality of your own mind, and invest that from an awareness standpoint and the skills to be able to guide your mind so that you have the ability to be autonomous in life and not to be the quote-unquote victim of the circumstance. And so that would be the first.
And then the second is make a fundamental decision. Like, who are you and how are you going to experience life? Where are you going?
Like, make those fundamental decisions and write that stuff down. I think it goes a real long way.
And then the third I would say is do something to enhance the ability for you to be at the center more often. And I think for me, mindfulness and breathing work—that’s been a great accelerant and a great teacher.
So those three. And if I add one more, if I may, is get around some really fricking bright people and people that understand the deeper meanings in life and/or something that you really want to learn. And so get around really fricking bright people and be open to learning. And so be open to looking stupid. And that's just a wonderful gift you can give yourself.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's great advice. And Michael, thank you so much for your time. It's been invaluable for me and hopefully the listeners as well.

Michael Gervais
Love what you're doing, Michael. Well done.

Michael Frampton
Thank you. And those that are listening, Michael's website—well, Michael's got a podcast, Finding Mastery. It's available on iTunes and findingmastery.com. Is that correct?

Michael Gervais
Dot net, findingmastery.net.

Michael Frampton
Okay. Well, if you Google Finding Mastery, it'll come up. Awesome. Again, Michael, thank you so much.

Michael Gervais
Brilliant. All the best to you, Michael. Take care. Thank you.

Michael Frampton
Wow, so much wisdom. So many gold nuggets in that interview. Well worth—I’ve listened to it myself so many times and I keep getting more and more out of it. But I just wanted to maybe summarize things a little bit from my perspective. I think when he's saying, towards the end of the interview, that there's something that all great athletes have in common—elite athletes have the ability to be 100% focused on now, on what's going on now. And obviously, what he's saying is that we can train. And so, obviously some people naturally have that, but we can train our minds to be better at focusing on what is going on now.
And like he says in the interview, it can be done with a mindfulness meditation practice. And that is really simple. To use his words, you focus on the one thing. It could be your breath. Your breathing is the most common.
And then, when you realize—as soon as you realize your focus is drifting away from that—then just refocus with great intensity back to this moment, again and again. It’s as simple as that. The practice is as simple as that. And for me, in terms of in surfing, it’s just if you realize—when you’re sitting at the back and you realize that your mind is going off—and a wave comes to you, and it's not a wave of consequence, so you don’t have to 100% focus because it’s just an average wave—
Well, that gives us an opportunity to learn how to just focus.
So it’s something we can practice in the water as well. We brushed on a topic which Michael said was foundational to all of this stuff, which is the importance of self-awareness and knowing what you want to focus your life efforts on. Now, Michael works with people that already know this stuff. They know what they want. They just want to improve what they're doing. His speciality is not helping you to refine what that is and discover what that is. But one of my previous— guests.

Michael Frampton
Dr. Demartini, which I interviewed a few episodes ago. So I urge you guys to go back and listen to that interview. And he has a book called—The Values Factor. It is a phenomenal book. There’s a couple of other interviews I did around this space as well. If you haven’t listened, you can go back and listen to the Matt Greggs interview and the Richard Bennett interview as well, where we talk about the mind a lot in those two interviews—as well as the Demartini one.
And I really loved his thoughts on the surfer’s relationship to surfing as well. And listeners, please, I’d love to hear your thoughts on this conversation. And if you just go to the—Facebook page. And just go to the post where I shared this interview, and just in the comments section, let’s just try and get a little thread going.

I’d love to hear you guys’ feedback on this. There’s so much going on in this conversation. And listeners, if you are enjoying this podcast and want to hear more, deeper conversations, interviews, et cetera, then please just share with your friends and please rate and review on iTunes. That helps a lot. But ultimately, yeah, just, you know, let me know, let others know on Facebook what’s going on here.

Help me spread the word, because the more listeners we have, the more time I can spend on doing this and creating content. Until next time, thank you.

Thanks for tuning in to the Surfing Mastery podcast. Again, I’m your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surf Mastery Surf. And if you’re on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That’d be awesome. Until next time, keep surfing.

20 Michael Gervais - Finding Mastery

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.