Podcast - SURF MASTERY

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Podcast - SURF MASTERY episodes

December 21, 2016019: KARL ATTKINS - Big Wave Surfer
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Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Chasing Big Waves and Overcoming Fear with Karl Attkins
Have you ever wondered what separates the world's top big wave surfers from the rest? What mindset, preparation, and experiences drive someone to ride waves as tall as buildings?
In this episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, Michael Frampton sits down with Karl Attkins, a self-made big wave surfer from Sydney's Northern Beaches. Karl shares his inspiring journey, from overcoming his fear of big waves as a teen to chasing the world’s most intense swells—all while balancing a full-time job. If you're looking for insights into mastering fear, honing your craft, and pushing your limits, this is an episode you won't want to miss.
Learn how to mentally and physically prepare for big wave surfing and why preparation is key to overcoming fear.
Discover Karl’s approach to training, including breathwork and lessons learned from surfing legends like Shane Dorian and Greg Long.
Hear about Karl's incredible stories, including his first trip to Shipstern Bluff and how commitment and intuition have guided his career.
Press play to learn the secrets to mastering your fears and unlocking your full potential in both surfing and life.
Karl Attkins grew up surfing and competing on Sydney's Northern Beaches, since finishing his competitive career Karl has been chasing big waves.
Karl talks about the importance of being prepared before committing to a big wave surf. Preparation of body, mind, and equipment is essential before you step outside your comfort zone, and stepping outside your comfort zone is the key to progression.
Karl also helps us to identify some of the subtleties around fear, intuition, and instinct, and how awareness of them can help you to face your fears, and avoid injury. How Breath Enhancement Training (B.E.T.) with Nam Baldwin has helped his surfing, both big wave and competitive.
Notable Quotes
"I didn’t ignore the fear—it was there—but I embraced it and went out there anyway."
"Being prepared is the number one key to surfing big waves. I’ve done it unprepared and prepared, and trust me, being prepared makes all the difference."
"Not every day is your day. It’s important to listen to that little voice telling you to hold back sometimes."
"There’s no better feeling than sitting on a plane ride home knowing you’ve just surfed 15 or 20-foot barrels."
"Mastery is a journey, and every time I ride big waves, I’m learning something new about myself and the ocean."
"Big wave surfing isn’t just about dropping into waves; it’s about the commitment to prepare, train, and show up no matter how hard it gets."
Show Notes:
http://www.bettraining.com/
http://www.aidosurfboards.com/
Key Points
Karl discussed how being prepared is the number one key to surfing big waves.
Karl shared his experience of getting towed into a wave at Ship's Dunes naked when Kelly Slater was there.
Karl talked about his early fear of surfing big waves and how peer pressure and the surfing community helped him overcome that fear.
Karl described his first experience surfing big waves at Ship's Dunes, where he got flogged and almost drowned before being towed into waves by Kobe Avedon.
Karl discussed the importance of breath training and working with Nan Baldwin to prepare for surfing big waves.
Karl emphasized the value of traveling and chasing swells to progress in big wave surfing.
Karl shared his experience of breaking his leg while surfing 4-foot waves at home and ignoring the signs that it wasn't his day.
Karl talked about the commitment and drive required to be a successful big wave surfer.
Karl discussed the importance of having the right equipment, including boards specifically designed for big waves.
Outline
Karl Atkins' Early Surfing Career
Karl Atkins is a big wave surfer from Sydney's Northern Beaches who started surfing at age 5 and competed in junior competitions, though they didn't achieve significant success.
Karl performed better in larger waves but struggled in smaller conditions.
They received a nomination for the top four and reached a final for a wave at Depot Bombia on the south coast, competing against surfers like Mark Matthews.
In 2009, Karl placed fourth in the Billabong XXL Ride of the Year competition.
Despite their early involvement in competitive surfing, Karl was initially quite fearful of big waves, often getting criticized by older surfers for bailing on their board or sitting far out to avoid getting caught inside.
Transition to Big Wave Surfing
Karl's transition to big wave surfing happened gradually as different swells came to Sydney, particularly at North Narrabeen where they lived, giving them more opportunities to surf larger waves.
Their first significant big wave experience was at Shipstern Bluff in Tasmania when they were 18 or 19 years old, which became a pivotal moment in their surfing career.
Karl went to Shipstern's after being informed about the swell by Timber Nathan, a big wave filmer, and despite having no jet ski support, they paddled out.
On their first wave, Karl went over the falls on a 10-foot wave, snapped their board in three pieces, and nearly drowned.
Later, Kobe Abberton lent Karl their tow board, and Ryan Hipwood towed them into a few big waves, igniting Karl's passion for big wave surfing despite the terrifying experience.
Chasing Swells and Preparation
Following their Shipstern's experience, Karl began chasing more swells, particularly with fellow surfer Dean Bowen, traveling to different locations to surf big waves while working as a landscaper to fund their trips.
Karl emphasizes that preparation is the number one key to surfing big waves, including mental and physical training, as well as having the right equipment.
They started doing specific breathing enhancement training, particularly with Nam Baldwin, finding it beneficial not only for big wave surfing but also for managing stress in everyday life.
Karl notes that consistency in training is crucial, as big swells can appear suddenly after long periods of smaller waves.
Surfing Preferences and Influences
Karl particularly enjoys surfing left-hand barrels, especially on their backhand, spending considerable time studying and emulating the styles of surfers like Andy and Bruce Irons, particularly their approach to backhand barrel riding.
They find it easier to get into late, deep barrels on their backhand compared to their forehand.
Some of their favorite waves include Shipstern Bluff, Teahupo'o in Tahiti, and various left-hand slabs on Australia's south coast, making multiple trips to these locations to continuously improve their skills in heavy, barreling waves.
Self-Awareness and Intuition in Surfing
Karl stresses the importance of self-awareness and listening to one's intuition when it comes to surfing big waves, recounting experiences where deciding not to chase certain swells due to a gut feeling later proved to be the right decision.
They admire surfers like Greg Long and Shane Dorian for their ability to assess conditions and sometimes pull back when they're not feeling it, even in high-stakes situations.
Karl emphasizes the need to balance overcoming fear with controlling excitement and 'froth,' noting that mistakes and injuries can happen when surfers ignore their instincts and push too hard.
Advice for Aspiring Big Wave Surfers
Karl's main advice for those wanting to improve their surfing, especially in big waves, is to focus on preparation, including being physically and mentally prepared, having the right equipment, and familiarizing themselves with the boards and conditions.
They recommend practicing with big wave boards even in smaller surf to get comfortable with their feel.
Karl also emphasizes the importance of consistency in training and maintaining overall health and fitness, as it benefits not just surfing but all aspects of life.
Transcription
Being prepared is definitely the number one key to surfing big waves.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surf better. Pinched on me and I just got squished and compressed by the waves, snapped my leg in half.
Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the show. Today's guest is Carl Atkins, a big wave surfer from Sydney's Northern Beaches. Carl started out as a junior competitor and then gave his competitive career in to just focus on chasing big waves and surfing big waves. Carl is most famous for a couple of things, one being an entry and a fourth placing into the Billabong XXL Ride of the Year in 2009, and he was made famous a while ago for getting towed into a wave at Ship Dunes naked when Kelly Slater was there. But this is a really cool interview. Carl gives some really cool insights into his journey and how he's progressed his surfing. But what's really inspiring about Carl's journey is that he's done it all himself. So he's not a sponsored big wave surfer. He's just worked a full-time job, saved his money to chase swells around the world.
Michael Frampton
Without further ado, Carl. So you did okay in the in some junior comps and then—
Karl Attkins
I didn't really do okay. I didn't do that good in the junior series. I just, I did it for a while. I used to kind of go, you know, make a few rounds. But yeah, never won or kind of got right up there or anything. Usually did better when the waves were good. When the waves were bigger or the waves were good, I'd do alright. But when they were small, I don't know. I just never really pulled together. Yeah, I got a nomination once in the top four and got a final for a wave at Depot Bombia down the south coast. Yeah, so like Slack of the Year or what. I think Mark Matthews won that year with massive kind of one he backed or closed out one at the Right.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and you got—was it fourth in the XXL?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, the year he won that. So yeah, that was a school or someone special.
Michael Frampton
And you were telling me last time that there was—you used to be scared of big waves, like quite scared?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, I was pretty—like I guess from the ages of, I guess, you know, 10 to 15, maybe 15 or so. I guess I, you know, I started surfing from about 5, but then when, you know, started pushing it a little bit more. Yeah, I used to be pretty terrified. I remember getting like pretty ragged on by the older guys for, you know, bailing your board on big waves or just when the surf was big, sitting so far out the back so you don't get caught inside but not catching any. And yeah, it was definitely a big fear of mine—was surfing big waves.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, well at least you had there—you obviously had the balls to paddle out in the first place.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, I guess maybe I was a bit of peer pressure in the first place. Well, yeah, I guess that's what it all starts and what's so good about having good mates around and surfing in a bit of a community. You know, you kind of see the older guys and you got your mates and you egg each other on, and that's what kind of drives you at the start I guess, for most people.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So that's what kind of drove you to, what, face your fear in big waves?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, it wasn't necessarily like to, like, prove myself or because I got bullied or teased about it or anything. It really happened more naturally. Like I can't say there was a—you know, I just started, you know, as different swells came at home, just in Sydney, like bigger and bigger swells. Like North Av where I live gets pretty good on the right swell. So yeah, just getting more opportunities to do that. And then that just, you know, I guess you just, yeah, push yourself each time. But then eventually, just kind of a few little things switched over and then I started traveling a bit and chasing bigger swells.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. When was your first actual big wave?
Karl Attkins
First proper big wave was when I went down to Shipstone. Yes, I think that was 2009. Yes, I was 19 at the time, 18 or 19. And yeah, I just had seen this swell and then I got told about it by Timber Nathan. He's a big wave filmer as well. And he said he was going down, and I kind of made a few phone calls from people I kind of knew that had connections down there and everything, and then just, yeah, got my stuff together and went down there. And that was the first big swell that I saw. The first, you know, proper kind of big surf that I saw was something different—just even surfing at your local.
Yeah, it's a pretty unique wave that. Yeah, it was heavy.
Michael Frampton
One. Yeah, not just—we're not just talking big wave. We're talking heavy.
Karl Attkins
Yes. It's a big slab.
Michael Frampton
The Slack, isn't it?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, I guess it, you know, gets 15 or 20 foot. I guess it handles out and—but yeah, I guess it's just heavy. Comes from far away and hits this big Slack. And everyone knows about that depth that hits in the middle of it. So yeah, it's a pretty special wave, but that's definitely what started it for me. I remember just, like, that was the first time I'd seen proper big waves and the first time I rode, you know, proper big waves and big barrels. I paddled to start and just got so flogged because I kind of just didn't have a choice. I said I was gonna paddle and went down. I didn't have a ski or anything like that. So I just got out there and gave it a go, and the first wave I got so flogged on—I went over the falls on it. It was probably about 10 foot or so, maybe bigger, and snapped my board in three pieces and almost drowned. And then got, yeah, got back on the boat. And then Kobe Avedon and Ryan Hipwood and those guys were all towing. And yeah, after a couple hours of that, Kobe Avedon let me use his tow board and got Hippo to tow me into a few big waves. And yeah, I got—you know, it was a good day. It was a consistent day. And yeah, he photoed me.
Michael Frampton
Well. And was it paddling, towing, both?
Karl Attkins
There's some pretty good waves. So that was—yeah, that was how it kind of happened down there.
Michael Frampton
So was that real—there's obviously a kind of a sense of community on that boat after you'd, you know, snapped your board and had nearly drowned. What took you from that to then being able to, you know, go back out there and tow into one?
Karl Attkins
I guess it was probably—yeah, I guess it was just probably they saw a skinny, blonde-haired guy just having a go. And you're down at the, you know, bottom of Tasmania down there and, you know, those guys are pretty cool. They had to have a—I guess there is a big wave community, and those guys all kind of travel together and tow each other in and everything. And I was very new to it the first time. But, you know, they love seeing people have a go and just getting out there and doing it. And yeah, Kobe was really nice in that way where he was kind of, you know, gave a pat on the back that said I would paddle in, and I did it and got flogged. And then he said, "Okay, time’s up, but you know, grab the tow board and you can go out there." And I had never ridden a tow board before in my life. So yeah, that's how that happened. So yeah, it was pretty cool. You know, it was nice of those guys to do that for me.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so that sounds like it was a changing, like a pivotal moment in your surfing.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I didn't really—after that, I kind of, you know, met Dean Bowen a bit better down there. He was down on that trip with Kobe and those guys. And yeah, then Dean said, "You gotta, you know, come down to where I live. There's some good waves." And then I started doing that a bit more and chasing swells with Dean and going down to where he lives and getting some good waves. So yeah, definitely that was the main starting point for surfing and chasing big waves.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and how far outside your comfort zone was that day?
Karl Attkins
Everything. I was so terrified. It was—yeah, completely out of my comfort zone. Yeah, like I said, I'd never really seen or experienced anything like that at the time. But yeah, looking back on it, I guess it—you know, it was terrifying, and I was so fearful the whole time. But I guess it's just that, you know, something inside you that just drives you to keep going and, you know, give it a crack. And things worked out for me, so that's why I just kind of kept going from there.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and what is that something that keeps you going?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, it's a good question. I guess at the start I was definitely just, you know, I just wanted to experience more in the ocean. Chasing the pro junior series and doing that and surfing small waves and everything—I'm glad I did it, but I wish I stopped earlier and started chasing swells. But yeah, just that—I guess the experience and the adventure that happens when you chase big swells, and that rush that you get, and, you know, overcoming your fears and, you know, sitting on that plane ride home knowing that, you know, you just got some 15 or 20-foot barrels. And you know, it's a pretty amazing feeling just, you know, getting out of your hometown and going out to the bit of unknown and, you know, achieving surfing a giant wave. Like, that's a pretty good feeling.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and I guess part of it is just backing yourself in the moment—like feeling the fear and just—I guess Kobe and Hippo that were there, they sort of gave you that confidence to overcome the fear and go back out again, or—
Karl Attkins
Yeah, at a point. But when—I forgot this little bit at the start—I was at the airport and I was sitting there, and Kobe said to me, "Where you going?" I said, "I'm going to Shipstone," and he said, "You got a jet ski and you're towing with us?" "No, I'm just gonna paddle," and he kind of laughed in my face, which was, you know, a bit of a test for me at that time. "God, what am I doing?" I'd never met him before, and he’s just kind of like—you know, he rolled his eyes and said, "Good luck," because he knew it was gonna be, you know, 20 foot and pretty much unpaddleable. But yeah, you know, then—you know, them saying, "You get out there and have a crack," like I said, they kind of, you know, they get into that. So they definitely, like, you know, gave me that opportunity to go out and get a few waves. Yeah, but just, I guess like—yeah, overcoming that fear that's inside you. And, you know, you train for it. At the time I was always pretty fit, but, you know, later down the track, then I started getting more into training specifically for chasing big swells. And then, you know, that all pays off as well. Being prepared is definitely the number one key to surfing big waves. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So it's just kind of that—the love of surfing is what kind of—and to challenge yourself and surfing in the ocean—is that what drove you to overcome?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, things that started working out for me when I would go on these big swells as well. I guess I was like—parts of it was to—actually a huge part of the start was to—you know, I loved surfing big waves, but getting photos and being sponsored and trying to be a professional surfer. As a young kid, you know, dream of mine to be a world champion, even though, you know, I did all the comps and, you know, had, you know, little successes here and there. But, you know, then all of a sudden you go and—the way it works now is that there is free surfing and big wave surfers out there. They can get paid to, you know, get photos and just travel and not have to do competitions. And that just ended up—seemed a lot more natural for me. Surfing big waves, it just seemed to work. Waves would come my way, and I just felt good, and it felt—you know, I felt like that's what I was meant to be doing at the time. So it was a good transition from doing comps into surfing big waves.
Michael Frampton
So let me just—how did you go from being the 15–16-year-old kid that was sitting way out the back at 8-foot North Ave to the guy who's paddling in when everyone else is towing at Shipstones?
Karl Attkins
How long to answer—because it really was just a kind of a subtle transition that happened. But like I said, it was that first trip to Shipstones, and I just started—I guess I just—it was weird how the weather, universe works, or—I just almost ended up there, you know? I ended up there and then just thought, you know, I'm gonna give this a crack. And then the way it just kind of worked, and then all of a sudden I got—and I, you know, I just towed into 15–20 foot Shipstones. And then after that is when I got a bit more serious about it. But it was just like, you know, it's definitely—I remember Tim just said, "You should come down and have a crack. You know, there's some big waves down there, some big barrels." Yeah. But I can't pinpoint exactly how it changed from being terrified to doing it, but yeah, I guess it was just, you know, I just did it. You know, it's just—having that fear, it's like everything in life. You have a fear, but it doesn't mean that you can't do something or you shouldn't do something. It's just to kind of embrace that and prepare yourself for whatever it is and go out and give it a go. And that's just what I did. You know, I still feel—you know, in Avalon alone, there’s so many surfing that have ten times better than me performance-wise or anything, but I just went out and did it. You know, I just went and booked those flights and saw the swells and just started doing it. Yeah, it's just a drive to get out and have a go at something—a bit of adventure—rather than just staying at home. But yeah, and just—yeah, I guess it's knowing you can, when it works the first couple of times and, you know, you have a crack and, you know, you have a few successes or a few big waves, and you get flogged a couple of times as well and realize that you're okay from that. And then, you know, then you build and build into that. And I'm not saying that I went from, you know, being completely terrified, like I said, at really small waves, like in medium-sized waves, and then just next day went into big waves. It's still, you know, from surfing from five years old to building up and being terrified, you know, you're still out there because your mates are pushing you to do those things, and you do still build up—from when you're scared when it's six foot to then being scared when it's eight foot, you know. So I guess it does take time. It wasn't something that happened directly, like overnight.
Michael Frampton
So you kind of trusting that primal surfing instinct, rather than the fear?
Karl Attkins
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. What are some—like, some things that you learnt along that journey that a lot of people miss out on?
Karl Attkins
I guess just—yeah, like seeing what's out there and just experiencing some different waves, different people as well. But just—yeah, just kind of getting out there and just seeing what's out there and the places it kind of took me and different things. I think I honestly—I surprised a lot of people, which is—in the local community or in the surfing community—and that's kind of what used to be so scared away. So how'd you end up doing that? But like I said, I was just getting out there and doing it. And it doesn't have to be, like I'm saying, it's not just for surfing or whatever it is, but just, you know, just making that move or booking that flight or just signing up for whatever it is that you want to do and just, you know, giving it a crack without looking back.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, getting outside your comfort zone.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, I like that feeling of, you know, being in that place of fear and then, you know, accomplishing—you know, what terrified you, or realizing it's okay. You know, all these things that we worry about, you know, work out.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
And now I'm interested too—if we contrast that with your leg injury recently. Did you—let's say at Shipsterns you were ignoring the fear, trusting your instincts. What was different when you got injured? Like, were you trusting your instincts? Were—
Karl Attkins
Yeah, it's different. And what you just said there about—like, I wasn't—I never ignored the fear. It was more like you, I guess, somewhat embrace the fear or feel that the fear is there, but then kind of go and do it anyway. So it's not like shunning the fear out or saying that the fear, you know, doesn't exist. But yeah, just—I guess with the leg, I broke my leg, snapped my shin, the tibia and fibula, in four-foot surfing. And I think, like, for a lot of big wave surfers—I was thinking of this not only a couple of days ago—but guys like Greg Long and Shane Dorian and how they're so well prepared that, you know, they're definitely the two best big wave surfers in the world. But they do have like an intuition as well, where I've seen and read and different things lately of them being in giant surf that they're trained for, being ready for, and realizing that it's kind of not their day and pulling back a little bit—or just when they weren’t feeling it. And for no other reason than they just weren't feeling it. Not to say that they weren't prepared mentally and physically and have the right equipment and everything. But I've just seen—and, you know, it's taken them a long time to get there as well—and I've read interviews on that. But, you know, just having that intuition and knowing you can be so prepared—you know, physically, mentally, and with equipment and everything—but there's some days that just—you just don't have it, or you're just not feeling it. But just to have that consciousness to be aware of that.
The day that I broke my leg, I was—like, jumped out of work early. I should have been at work, and I kind of—the waves were pumping, and it was only that, you know, four to five foot. But there were really good barrels at home, and I—you know, raced home, and I was in such a rush. Raced home, got my board, got out there, and I was paddling around like a bit of a madman, trying to get into waves. And I kept stacking. It was really fast and sucky, and I went over the falls on one, snapped the board. I ran home, got another board, ran back out. And I got out and I was exhausted, and I wasn't feeling it. Now I look back, I know that there was that thing—there's those, you know, kind of signals telling me to calm down a little bit, or just, you know, take it easy. And I had that. I kind of just ignored it in the back of my head because I wanted that wave so bad, you know, just to get a good four-foot barrel at home.
And then, not so long after having those thoughts, all those feelings, the next wave just didn't—four-foot wave, I went to pull in and it pinched on me and I just got squished and compressed by the wave. And yeah, snapped my leg in half. Yeah, looking back on it, it was definitely, you know, when you push things and rush them and it's not really calculated and you just keep pushing and pushing because you want to do it—that is when, you know, you make mistakes.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Okay. So that's a difference between—again, it's that difference between the fear and the instinct. Whereas it wasn't exactly big enough waves to be scared, but your instincts were saying maybe this isn't, you know, the right day for you. Yeah. Whereas it was the opposite at Shipsterns—the waves were huge and the fear was there, but you didn't listen to the fear, you listened to your instincts. And coincidence, or whatever you want to call it—you know, Tim saying, "You know, come," and then Kobe, obviously, the boys down there respecting you for paddling in and then offering you the tow—and it just kind of worked out. But what I'm wondering is—for folks to learn from other surfers' mistakes and things they do right, as well as, you know, so we can all progress our surfing—
And you used—I mean, you said Shane Dorian said the same thing as well, right? Like some days just not your day, and you have to realize that. How do we recognize those signals? Yeah. How do we differentiate them from fear?
Karl Attkins
Yeah. No—kind of, I guess, you just having that intuition and that knowing and just listening to even those thoughts that may come up and those feelings that do come up inside of you. Yeah, I think, you know, you kind of—just a knowing. For me, it's a knowing. I know that, okay, there's a fear going on here and I'm scared—like there's not many big surfs I don't have where there isn't fear and I'm not scared of what's about to happen. But you feel good and you can do it anyway. But then, yeah, there's just those other times where, you know, when things aren't flowing and you don't—you know, you don't need to force it all the time.
That's just kind of the message that I've kind of experienced from my leg—is that, you know, when you force things like so hard like that, sometimes you need to sit back. And, you know, it may even be in a surf just, you know, sitting back for a second and, you know, having a few breaths and just kind of re-evaluating the situation that is going on. I think as surfers, we froth with the excitement and we just want that wave so bad. It was for me for years that, you know, you put everything behind you and you just—whatever it takes, you just want to get that wave so bad. But just having more control and being a bit more calculated in knowing—you know, knowing when's the right time to push it and knowing when's the right time to hold back.
Yeah, but I guess just little things of—maybe even like how you're performing as well, or, you know, you're just not getting—instead of pushing, you know, like I said, to sit back and, you know, have a few breaths and see what's going on and, you know, just kind of re-evaluate the situation. And it may just be for an hour to sit out, or maybe just be that day's not your day. Yeah, I think that's something that a lot of surfers, including myself, just didn't recognize for so many years—was that, you know, not every day is gonna be a day. You know, you have those days where you're in flow and, you know, waves come to you and you can barely put a foot wrong, and you can prepare yourself to get in those states. But there's other times where it's just not your day.
Michael Frampton
And did that—you mentioned that after your Shipsterns—your first Shipsterns trip—that inspired you to do some more training for big waves. What did that entail?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, well I'd—previously I'd done some breathing courses when I was up in Queensland actually, and I did them in preparation really for my competitive surfing. And actually, after the first time I did one of these breathing courses, I went to Stradbroke Island the next day for one of the pro juniors, and the surfing was, you know, four to six foot. But I used to get—you know, there's a lot of fear and anxiety around competing as well, even when it was small, just, you know, being in the water and, you know, making the right moves and, you know, getting through heats. And just being in a heat was just—got a lot of stress built up for me. And I got one of the best results I ever had in a pro junior was after doing this breathing course. So I was a bit, you know, obviously, "Well, that stuff really worked. What was that?" And I, you know, after a few months I hadn't done it. I'd done it for maybe a year or so after that. But then after going down to Shipstern was when—yeah, I kind of thought, okay, if I'm gonna do this, you know, I want to get back on to, you know, getting myself as fit as I can and doing this breathing enhancement training. And that's when—yeah, I really started focusing on doing that. Because I thought, you know, obviously for big waves—I was already pretty fit physically, you know, just from surfing and, you know, other physical training that you do—but the breathing enhancement is definitely one of the key components you need for, you know, obviously to hold your breath under a big wave. So yeah, that was a huge focus of mine once I started, you know, getting really into surfing bigger waves was the breathing enhancement training. Yeah. Probably only, you know, like two sessions a week was kind of the optimal training in the pool, doing this specific breathing training that I do. So yeah, doing that—like, just consistency is definitely the key I found to a lot of that training as well. Yeah, and once you get, you know, through a winter as well, once you do a bit of training and then on the good times when the swells back to back—you know, there's no better training than surfing in big surf as well. So if you get a few back-to-back swells and, you know, get a few floggings and everything that comes in a big wave session...
Michael Frampton
And how many hours a week would you—did you dedicate to that initially?
Karl Attkins
That's—that's the best training that you can do.
Michael Frampton
And so it's pretty obvious to people listening that doing breath training, underwater training and stuff is going to help in big waves. But you mentioned how it helped in surfing smaller waves in competition. How does your breathing affect that aspect of—
Karl Attkins
Surfing? Yeah. It was just—for a start, for me, it was really quieting my mind, quieting what was going on when I was sitting out there in a heat. You know, worried about, you know, what I was looking like or what the other guys were doing—who’s sponsored or who weren’t or whatever it was. Having all the busyness that happened in my mind, focusing on the breath, for me, really helped me before a heat and during the heat when waiting for waves to then be able to perform. When I was, you know, in that bit of empty space in my mind, I could really just get to what I knew how to do. And yeah, just the preparation before your heats as well, the same thing. Yeah, just focusing on the breath. One of the best things for me, it was just that calming effect that it had to chill out those nerves. And I think just for everyday life as well, not even surfing, you know—the breath is such a powerful tool to stay calm, quieten those thoughts that we all have. And then, you know, that can help us come over the anxieties and the fears that we all face.
Yeah, that’s right.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and it’s the breath enhancement training from Nam Baldwin?
Karl Attkins
That’s the—yeah, that’s the training that I’ve been doing for about 10 years now. I did my first session with Nam, yeah. So yeah, and I started off, yeah, like I said, just mainly for competitive surfing, and then I started—you know, went back and started doing it after I started surfing a bit bigger waves, and then just—yeah, back and forth over the years going up there and training, myself down in Sydney.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. Yeah, I mean, I interviewed them a couple of podcast episodes ago and it inspired me to do the introductory course, which I did—which was amazing. Probably one of the best courses I’ve done, not just for surfing but just as a—I think anyone should do the course just for the way it affects your physiology. It is phenomenal, it’s mind-blowing, let alone the benefits—the obvious benefits—for surfing, especially big waves. But just the type—the way you feel after that training session is—it’s indescribable, really. Yeah, especially at the end when you do the mammalian dive reflex activation thing—wow. That feeling of calm in your body after that is—yeah, you can’t—I’ve never come across so many—doing yoga and things, you get close, but that underwater aspect, just—wow, changes the game.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, that program’s really well set up now, and it’s—you know, there’s Nam, and they’ve developed that over, you know, quite a few years and worked with some really good people. So that—yeah, that course is amazing. I love seeing everyone’s faces after the course, because most of them have never experienced such, you know, such deep relaxation from doing that. And, you know, the thing is, they forget—a lot of them don’t expect to experience that stress as well that is at the start of the course. But yeah, like you said, not just for surfers, because whether it’s stress—whether it’s surfing in a competition or surfing big waves—but mainly day-to-day stresses that everyone faces in the business world or work or family or relationships. Yeah, the breath’s a very powerful thing that a lot of us kind of take for granted and forget about. So yeah, it’s amazing, that course and what Nam’s done with it.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
It is. I did continue on with the training and then I went to Ulus and had a couple of big days there and—didn’t really—I was there a couple of months before I did the course, and then I did the course and did a bit of practice and then went back. And so I was able to gauge the difference quite easily because it was quite a unique wave. And I got some good eight-foot swells both times I was there, and I was so much more comfortable the second time around. Like, surfing the bommie by myself—it was just fine. Yeah, rolled in by sets and just did the breathing stuff and knew I was coming up, kept it safe, paddled back out, reset the breath and back again. It was just—yeah.
Yeah, so much more energy. So in the past I probably would have done the same thing, but would have been flogged, you know. I’d have caught a couple more sets and gone in, but I was able just to keep my energy levels calm and it was fine.
Yeah.
Karl Attkins
It’s a different approach to, you know, chucking on some Rage Against the Machine and just jumping out there and putting your head down and doing it like that. So yeah, like I said, it’s just so good being prepared for any surfing, but especially big surf.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Well, your breath can do both, kind of. It can deeply relax you, or you can, you know, get your breath up in certain ways of breathing to ramp you up as well.
Yeah.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, it's—yeah, it's a great course. Yeah. Yeah. No, he does like a lot of stress management and life coaching, and he's getting into doing lots of corporate kind of gigs now, where he's, you know, helping people using the breath, but, you know, doing different things on land. And like I said, to help them deal with, you know, day-to-day stresses that they—you know, all of us deal with. Yeah, so I've been—like I said, I've been working, you know, doing training with Nam for about ten years now. So yeah, I just want to get more and more into that. And then I'm—yeah, hopefully not too far away down the track, I'll be able to work under Nam as a breathing enhancement trainer down in Sydney.
Michael Frampton
Now, anyone listening, I recommend that course highly. It's just amazing. Yeah. And you're learning more stuff from them as well. You know, he's doing different—it's not just breathing that he does, is it? Cool. Awesome. So what we need down here...
Karl Attkins
Yeah. Yeah, and it's good. It's a regular practice, a consistent practice, and, you know, having someone there is important. So yeah, hopefully not too far away and get into that. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I feel I've been blessed, you know, to have it, you know, over the last ten years of my experience of surfing competitions and surfing big waves. And I've had really good trainers like Nam that have come into my life and, you know, taught me a lot. So I just—you know, I'd love to be able to give that back to, you know, other people as well and just, you know, help them how to, you know, have a better life or, you know, reach their goals in surfing big waves if that's what they're after. Or—yeah, I'd love to get more into that.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
So you're inspired to do some coaching. And obviously from having coaches like that in your life and just being in this community, which is so rich with surfing and the support of competitive surfing and surfing progression—you've just, from living here, you've gained—I think a lot of people who live in areas like this take it for granted what you learn about surfing and how that can make you such a better surfer. Whereas, you contrast that—someone like myself, who was self-taught and didn't really, you know, have any mentors or anyone else at the beach at all where I was surfing. It was all 100% self-taught. But I'm wondering whether—obviously I learned, you know, on the fly, whereas you—there's a saying, "You stand on the shoulders of giants." You know, learn from the surfers that surfed before us. But are there any lessons that you didn’t learn from others that you had to learn yourself?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, I guess—you know, you're definitely right in saying that. Like, where we live in Australia really, but, you know, the east coast of Australia as well—there's so many good surfers. The quality of surfing is, you know, probably the best in the world, really. So yeah, you know, just being pushed and driven and having, you know, coaches around and being able to, you know, have board riders clubs at every beach to, you know, start and help you from such a young age is—it's definitely a blessing. I guess the surfing of the big waves and all of that was—for me, I guess, you know, I had people that helped me as I got into it more. But like I said, it's just kind of, you know, getting out there and doing it. We don't get giant waves in Sydney. Once a year if we're lucky—once every few years, you know, we get a couple of big swells. But, you know, if you're really just based in Sydney, you need to get out. You need to go to Hawaii or even Western Australia or, you know, start getting out into those more extreme places if you want to surf bigger waves. You can't really hang around Sydney and just wait for that.
Yeah, so, you know, going to places like Hawaii—but, you know, see from a young age, guys are doing it younger and younger now with sponsors and different things like that. But for me, it was hard as well because, you know, you’ve got to rent cars and accommodation and everything. So, you know, traveling to chase big waves—you know, there's a lot that comes with it as well. But yeah, you know, you can only get—you get taught so much by people, but just that experience and getting out there and doing it yourself is, you know, yeah, definitely something that you just have to figure out for yourself and go and do it. If you don’t have sponsors or people taking you directly there—which I never really had either—I kind of, you know, worked and paid for everything myself. And all my swells that I chased, I worked as a landscaper and, you know, had a really good boss that allowed me to, you know, have that flexibility during winter to go and drop everything and just chase swells.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Okay. So again—travel. Again, I've had a few surfers say how important traveling, chasing waves is for your surfing. Stepping outside that comfort zone.
Yeah.
Karl Attkins
Well, that’s it. Yeah, you know, every time you go to Hawaii or, you know, go to a big wave spot and come back, and, you know, surf big North Av—it’s just like playful.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
That's—yeah, that’s the thing. Yeah. You might be scared at eight-foot North Ave, and then you go spend a couple of months in Hawaii, and then all of a sudden you're surfing a small wave board at eight-foot North Ave, and it's—yeah, it’s a cakewalk. Okay, so staying on the theme of getting outside your comfort zone—there must be a limit, though. Like, obviously, when your first trip to Shipstern was quite far outside your comfort zone, but it wasn’t so far that—I mean, it could have gone wrong, right? And you could have been put off big wave surfing forever. Yeah, that was—how close to the edge of your comfort zone were you?
Karl Attkins
And everyone's real friendly as well. You’ve got to work for it in Hawaii.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. But you were lucky enough to have the right people there, I guess, to feel safe, and the right equipment there—and they helped you out. But have you ever gone so far outside your comfort zone and said, "Nope"? Like, have you ever pulled up to a big wave spot and gone, "I'm not ready for this"?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, it's a good question. I have had those thoughts. I've definitely had those thoughts where I've been there and thought, "What am I doing here?" Probably—maybe Tahiti. I went to Chopes for one, you know, one of those really giant swells a couple of years ago, one of the biggest ones, and I got to the airport. Well first, I was on a plane and it was, you know, Mark Matthews and Laurie Towner and Hippo and Dean Morrison and, you know, Richie Vass and a few other guys—like all the big wave guys—on one plane. And then when we landed in Tahiti, there was like Laird and Dorian, and then the plane from Brazil came, the plane from America came—it was like every big wave surfer in the world was there. So those thoughts, you know, come into my mind then when I'm like, "So what am I doing?"
Yeah. But yeah, I guess it's, you know, like I said before, just knowing where your comfort zone stands and what you're prepared for as well. I'm not saying to go and, you know, do your first breathing course and jump on a plane and go to Tahiti or go to Shipsterns. I was surfing—you know, like I said, I was surfing competitively for a long time. So, you know, build up gradually, and you have to know your limits and know, you know, your ability as well. You can hold your breath for five minutes and be the fittest man, you know, going around, but if your ability to surf isn’t up there, you know, you have to be aware of that and try—you know, you can judge that to see where you're at.
Yeah, I wouldn't say I've had too many times where I've actually not surfed, but yeah, there's definitely been times where I've had those feelings and thoughts. But, you know, like I said before, it's just trying to decipher, like, when's the right time to pull back and if it's just waiting to assess it for a little bit if you're not feeling it. Yeah, but it's just knowing your own ability and knowing when there is a time that, you know, you should maybe wait. Yeah, like, you know, I could surf, and I'd, you know, I'd been surfing a long, long time before I did it—you know, close to 15 years or so before I, you know, really started surfing big waves. And, you know, guys are getting younger and younger now, and the talent is amazing. Now, I just judged it on Barton Lynch’s comp for the last few days at Whale Beach, and there's like under-sixes and under-eights, under-tens, and some of the, you know, technique and styles of these kids is amazing. And even these young kids pulling into these barrels and everything—it’s, you know, pretty amazing these days what they're doing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so all that experience in small waves helped your big wave game.
Karl Attkins
But yeah, it's just, you know, knowing one's ability and when you know you're capable of doing it or when you know when to pull back. And yeah, it's definitely important because, you know, big waves are dangerous, and, you know, you only get so many chances as well.
Yeah, definitely something you have to be careful with.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so self-awareness. It's a big one.
Yeah.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, for sure. I think—yeah, it's been a huge thing for me. You know, there's actually been flights—and you said like rocking up to swells and not surfing—but there's been times where I've almost gone on swells, then I haven’t, and because I've had that feeling inside me. There was one time to go to Hawaii, actually, to go to Jaws, and I was gonna—I was ready to go, and I was so close, actually on the phone with a flight attendant about to go the next day. And I just, you know—I had just so many signs in me just telling me not to go. And I was always like that—booking flights and doing things, like just trying to decide, you know, to spend the money, to commit to it, to all of that. But yeah, knowing that as well, I guess, was just having that—listening to those signals. So there was that—yeah, one time, actually, right, I, you know, decided not to go. And then not long—a few days after—it was, I remember everyone saying, "Well, that was one of the most dangerous swells there was," and people got hurt, and the winds were wrong. And, you know, I was—yeah, counting my blessings for that one.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, was it a similar feeling you had moments before you broke your leg?
Karl Attkins
Before my leg was—I just had signals, signs coming in just saying, "Slow down," pretty much, that I just ignored and put behind me and just kept paddling and, you know, just put my head down to try and get—it was a really heavy day with, you know, barrels everywhere. And it was just that over-excitement, that over-froth where I was just, you know, not in flow and not in rhythm, and I just kept pushing. It was a forceful—yeah. So, kind of similar, but not really. I guess it was—yeah, there was more just like, "Okay, slow down."
Yeah, but like you said, it's so tricky at the time, you know, to decide what are those thoughts and feelings that you should listen to—if they're fear that you need to overcome, or they're, you know, the reasonable signs saying, "Okay, take a step back, and maybe this one's not for you," or "This day is not for you." But as surfers, it's not many of us can say that we've, you know, we've done that. But that's why I do respect guys like Greg Long and Shane Dorian, because I've, you know, read in different stories lately where they've been at swells and they're, you know, not completely feeling it. And I think it was the final of that big wave comp at Jaws, maybe—I think it was Dorian—and he got probably the biggest waves of the day in the semis and heats leading up to it. But in the final, you know, he was tired and he was a bit worn out, and I don't think he—didn’t really catch too many waves. And he said that. But I think that kind of, you know, takes a lot of a man to be able to say that, and as a surfer as well, just to have the consciousness to go, "Okay, you know, maybe this isn't for me," and, you know, wait for the next one. But, you know, a lot of guys out there—you know, they're not even going to catch when those thoughts or feelings come up for them. They just put their head down and go, and that's when mistakes and injuries can happen.
I think Mark Matthews as well—not much about it—but that July wave that he got is like one of the biggest Jaws waves, you know, ever paddled into. But, you know, a lot of the questions and people ask him, "Would you do it again?" or everything, he's, you know—says, "No way." Like, you know, he just had to get in on a wave, and he was, you know, probably like that—same thing—that froth and excitement and wanting to get a wave before the comp started. And, you know, he got one of the biggest waves, you know, paddled into at Jaws. But then, you know, it was pretty massive action—six months with, you know, blowing his shoulder apart.
Yeah, so it's just a fine line of, you know, overcoming the fear and, you know, controlling the froth and excitement that us as surfers have.
Yeah, I guess—yeah, an intuition.
Michael Frampton
You're trying to differentiate fear from instinct.
Yeah, it's such a fine line sometimes.
Yeah, because a lot of it will come with experience.
Yeah.
Karl Attkins
I suppose. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, you know, it's—I'm not saying that still I do it perfect every time. It's just something I work towards and, you know, just kind of try to be more aware of. Yeah, you know, like I keep saying with Greg Long and Dorian, you know, those guys are, you know, 40 years old or something, and they're still progressing and still learning. And, you know, they're kind of, you know, coming out and saying that a bit now. You know, they know when to pull back and when to go. And those guys, you know, surf the biggest waves in the world.
Yeah. I did for a little while, actually, when I first started getting guns. I—yes, I think it was Tom Carroll, maybe, or I think it was TC, and he kind of said, you know, the best way to get used to your guns is, you know—because you don’t have that many opportunities, especially in Sydney—is to start riding them when the waves are smaller just to get a feel for how they paddle and just standing up on it.
Yeah, because, you know, just getting a gun and then out in 10-foot surf or whatever...
Michael Frampton
Yeah, do you spend much time on your gun outside of big waves?
Karl Attkins
It isn't riding it—it's all first-time experience. So yeah, that was something I've actually always remembered, was just—yeah, him mentioning that before I went to Hawaii once. "Just get out on your guns and just start riding them, you know, just out in small surfing, just to get a feel for them and, you know, get your feet in the wax." Yeah, that's a tip that I definitely recommend for people. You know, just to get a feel for those boards before you're out there for the first time in a big swell—at least you’ve got a bit of wax on it and a feel for it.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, negotiating a big board like that on a two-foot wave—it's kind of sometimes what you have to do on a 10-foot wave, because the chop can be almost that big. Yeah, and right—you actually, you might be on a 10-foot wave, but you're kind of riding a line of chop that's one foot from the wind or whatever. So...
Karl Attkins
Yeah, definitely. There's definitely an art to it. I've got, like, so much still to learn. But yeah, because, you know, a lot of waves in Australia—big waves—that's slabs. You know, there's waves down the south coast that, you know, when it gets big—gets bigger than six foot—you can't paddle into them. So, you know, I did a lot of towing when, you know, towing was cool. But no, when—yes, I, you know, rode a lot of big waves on smaller boards. But then, as I started, you know, riding bigger boards and everything, you know, this one time actually I was surfing down there and it was a bit of a shock because I was, you know, just trying to negotiate the board on those bigger waves. Definitely an art to it. The way the boards are shaped these days—there’s some amazing boards out there, and running quads and everything. But yeah, I think it definitely helps just to get a feel for those guns in smaller waves before you get out there in the big stuff.
Yeah, I'm not too much into longboarding.
Michael Frampton
Have you ridden—you’ve done much longboarding?
Karl Attkins
I just—yeah, every now and then when it's real small. But yeah, I never really have done too much longboarding, too much serious longboarding. Yeah, but I think that—I’ve seen guys, you know, that do ride longboards and then ride guns and they're—yeah, they're definitely, you know—I think that would help too.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, kind of similar weight.
Karl Attkins
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, but saying that, there’s really no—the real big wave guys are riding big boards, but, you know, you watch a lot of the guys now as well, and they’re riding smaller and smaller boards. You know, places like Chopes and things like that, you just need a—you know, sometimes it just needs to be a bit thicker under your chest to paddle into them. But you don't want it too long so you can, you know, get up under. And some of the, you know, those Hawaiian guys are, you know, paddling into Chopes, you know, getting right under the lip. There’s definitely an art to that as well. So it depends if it's a big slab or a, you know, big bommie. You just kind of have to be ready for everything—and have a good quiver.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, when was your first trip to Chopes?
Karl Attkins
I went there probably four or five years ago. I've done, like, three trips there now.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely one of my favorite waves. Yeah, such a good wave. It's just so perfect and so heavy and so intense.
Yeah. So, yeah, it's probably about four or five years ago. So yeah, paddling that spot is just—you know, that's definitely one of the best spots that I've been to and love going to. Yeah, just the barrels. It's such an intense wave there. You get so flogged, and you have to, you know, be on your game there to see, you know, when it starts getting big.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
I mean, you obviously spent some time at the Slab here in preparation for Shipsterns, but did you ride any left-hand slabs before you went to Chopes?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, down the south coast there are a lot of left-hand points, down—left-hand slabs down there. And I was towing with Dean Bowen a bit, and he's a goofy footer and loves his lefts. So yeah, I'd say I'm probably—yeah, I'm better on left barrels than I am on right barrels.
Yeah, that seems to be, you know, the area where I live and where areas close to me seem to be more left-hand barrels than right-hand ones.
Michael Frampton
Did you find it harder to learn to get barreled on your backhand than you did on your forehand?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, for sure. I—you know, I think it's, you know, it's for a lot of—most of us—pig-dogging and getting into left barrels seems, you know, unnatural. And it's—you know, pig-dogging, I think it's probably one of the hardest things in surfing that, you know, people struggle to get a grasp of. But yeah, I used to just—I remember I used to watch, like, Andy Irons and Bruce Irons. I loved how they pig-dogged barrels at Pipe, and they just had the cool styles, and I always wanted to be able to do that. So I remember, like, for years, even just at home when there were good right-handers or whatever, I'd just go left on every opportunity I could. Just pull into closeouts, just trying to grab my rail and just work that technique.
Yeah, that is by far my favorite thing to do in surfing is, you know, left slab, left pig-dog barrels.
Yeah, I think those guys—you know, those guys are so good at it and just have, you know, really good styles. And just them out at Pipe and them out at Tahiti—for me, just, you know, watching their old movies was something that definitely inspired me to be able to do what they do.
Michael Frampton
So you did a lot of watching the Irons brothers, yeah?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, I spent a lot of time when I was young, actually. Yeah, just trying to, you know, figure out where they grab the rail and, you know, the way their shoulders point and just the direction that sends them out.
Yes, I used to spend a lot of time watching those guys.
Michael Frampton
How much time did you spend watching them?
Yeah, what’s a lot of time—like, hours a day?
Karl Attkins
I wouldn’t—I guess probably when I was young, probably would still watch a movie a day when you're young. Yeah, get up early and watch it before the sun comes up, watch at night and on the weekends with your mates. Yeah. Maybe one a day when you're a full grommie. Yeah, I don't watch as much surfing as I used to. Yeah. But...
Michael Frampton
Obviously that was a time in your life where you really wanted to get better at one particular aspect of surfing.
Yeah.
Karl Attkins
That's probably where I put the most focus for myself in surfing—to perform in a certain way. Just thinking back, it would definitely be the most amount of time I'd put into watching things. Like with, you know, doing turns or anything—I didn't really, like, you know, focus too much on that. But the one point that I would have, you know—like I just said—was watching videos of those guys and, you know, going left on closeouts when there were good rights, just to get good at it. That was something that I focused on. Yeah, and I think that paid off a lot.
Michael Frampton
And back when you first started really being a little bit obsessed with backhand tube riding, what percentage of waves would you make?
Karl Attkins
Not very many. Like I said, I was just pulling into closeouts that would come through. But yeah, I just found it an awkward position to be in. It was just, you know—it was just hard figuring it out. Once I started to get the hang of it and, you know, where to position yourself a bit better and, you know, ways to make it out of barrels on your backhand—yeah, I think the feeling and sensation of kind of, you know, dropping into a sucky backhand barrel is just, like, one of my favorite things to do. And I think, like, sometimes for me it's just—it’s actually easier because you can, like, dig your rail in a little bit more on your backhand and get into it a bit later. And because you're kind of, you know, holding on with your rail and you can dig it in—on your forehand, you know, when you're not holding on, you really just have to, like, have that balance to get your rail in to get in really late.
Yeah, so for me, I just found—I think it's easier to get late and deeper on your backhand than it is on your forehand.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
But you can only say that because you went through that time of, you know, focusing on it.
Karl Attkins
Yeah. So, yeah, that's true. So... yeah. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
All those hours—it’s worthwhile. Because now—yeah, I mean it's a skill you probably never lose.
Karl Attkins
No, it's like—yeah, it's something I still—yeah, I still just love doing the most. If anyone was asking what's my favorite thing to do in surfing, that's it. Hands down, lefts. But not everyone's the same, you know. Mates that, I guess, love going to rights—and maybe it's because, I don't know, they're not as good at pig-dog, you know, they’re surfing more rights, or it's where you grow up or what waves you know, what waves you like. But when I started going down south and surfing lots of left slabs, and then go to Tahiti and then go to Fiji and Cloudbreak and Western Australia—they're all left slabs. So I guess it all just kind of led me that way and focused on it to get better at it. You know, there are some winters I look back—I haven't gone right for ages. But, you know, maybe guys on the Goldie and surfing Snapper all the time and live up there—they probably say otherwise, where they don't go left for a very long time. Probably saying guys like Parko—he's really good on lefts. You know, he's one of the top guys for sure at left pig-dog barrels.
Michael Frampton
Did you find that getting better at left-hand barrels made you a better surfer overall?
Karl Attkins
Yeah. That's just, like, having that option and the ability that, you know, you've worked on to be able to go left. Or...
Michael Frampton
More specifically—like this: do you think getting better at backhand barrels made you better at doing forehand cutbacks?
Karl Attkins
No, it just got me better at pig-dogging lefts.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
What about being more—being more surfing more critically in the pocket on a left-hander? Do you feel more comfortable?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, maybe. Like maybe just even for takeoff—if it's not necessarily barreling—maybe just being able to, like, swoop into the left a bit better and knowing you can, like, try to trust your rail a bit and, you know, get those takeoffs to get yourself in better positions.
Yeah, it's helped for that.
Michael Frampton
And was it the trips down south that inspired the backhand stuff, or was it the Tahiti?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, everything. But I'd definitely say that Andy and Bruce Irons—just watching them—was just something I just, you know, just something that I liked about their styles and the way they rode backhand barrels. I thought it just looked really stylish. And, you know, I said those two—for me at the time—were the best at it. So I just really—I just liked the look of it. And then when I, you know, started doing it as well, I just—I think I liked the feel of it as well. It just feels good to be in that position. And maybe just because it was really difficult or something that I found I wasn’t very good at. So then, you know, like I said, when you overcome that or accomplish something that you're not so good at, you know, and it pays off, it feels pretty good once you kind of master it.
Not that I've mastered it.
Michael Frampton
Mastery is a journey.
Yeah. What about hanging out—obviously you've had the chance to hang out with a lot of top-level—and especially big wave—surfing. Do you—is there anything you notice about those people that are different to other surfers?
Karl Attkins
I guess, obviously, their commitment. It's a huge thing just to be—a lot of big wave guys obviously have to have that commitment. I notice as well maybe a lot of them, you know, they just have that love of big waves. There are guys that surf really good—ten times better than me—but they're just not into big waves. And, you know, we're all different. And, you know, some—a lot of them—would admit it, some won’t. But some just, you know, they're just not that into it. But yeah, some of the big wave guys—like, you know, not all of them surf great in small waves. And a lot of them, I guess, they—yeah, they have that drive for big waves. And, you know, maybe surfing in small waves, you know, they don’t have that ability or that skill to surf really well in small waves. So, you know, they get it out of surfing big waves.
Yeah, I think that’s definitely something I noticed. And not to say everyone—I know a lot of big wave guys who surf really good in small waves—but there is a, you know, a majority of the bigger wave surfers that, you know, maybe just because they love it. They just love surfing bigger waves. Or like me—just small waves didn’t necessarily work for them, and when they surfed big waves, things worked. That’s what happened for me. So yeah, definitely a bit of a trend there, I'd say.
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Committed not just to each wave, but to the cause.
Yeah.
Karl Attkins
Yeah, definitely. That, you know, drop everything, and when they're out there, they're just like, you know—they just want it so bad, and, you know, do anything they can to get those waves. Yeah, and commitment, you know, to preparing for it as well. And I guess it's, you know, maybe some people couldn't be bothered to, you know, jump on a plane and, you know, fly five hours and then drive 24 hours or something to get up to Nalu or something like that. But, you know, having that commitment or just being, you know, knowing that it's possible and you're gonna get a bit tired and, you know, you can make things work if you, you know, just keep at it. Yeah, just having that drive behind you as well. You know, most big wave surfing—you need that. Because, you know, you're gonna have to work pretty hard to get there, especially if you live in Sydney.
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
What percentage of trips are unsuccessful? You've been on a few where you get there and—yeah, the swell just didn't happen. There's been a—
Karl Attkins
Couple. Like, luckily more closer ones down the south coast. There's been a couple, but we're so lucky these days with the swell forecasting. It's—yeah, you know, so accurate really. We're lucky because, yeah, the swell forecasting and weather maps are so accurate, and flights—you know, you can get pretty cheap flights the next day out of places. All that freedom is there, so, you know—but it does happen.
Yeah, I haven't—I've been pretty lucky. I've been pretty lucky. There's been times, but yeah, I haven't done any massive Tahiti or Fiji or anything I’ve missed. I've always kind of scored when I've done that. You know, maybe guys that do it more often, but, you know, if you can know what you're looking for, yeah, kind of play your cards right, it's, you know, pretty accessible and easy these days to get what you want.
Yeah, it's just—maybe, you know, but the same, saying that, you know, there has been a couple of times, you know, going down south and it's just not what it is. But maybe certain waves as well, with directions and things, can change or just different storms that are unpredictable, not knowing what they're doing. But yeah, we're pretty lucky these days to be accurate on the money with them.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And back onto the surfing movie—what's your favorite? Do you have a favorite surfing movie?
Karl Attkins
Movie—I haven't watched like a surf movie in so long. My favorite one growing up—I used to watch Loose Change a lot.
Yeah, really old ones. Yeah, I loved watching that. Trilogy is sick with Andy Irons and Rasta, Parko.
Yeah, my favorite surfboard is this 8’.
Michael Frampton
Taj and Andy? Yeah, it's one of my favorites too.
What's your favorite surfboard?
Karl Attkins
I've got one from Adieu Wheeler, and I've only ridden it once, and it was at Cloudbreak and it was 10–15 foot. And yeah, it was probably one of the better surf sessions I had in my life with not too many guys out, and the board just went so good. And that was, I think, a little bit before I broke my leg. So that's my favorite board at the moment. I've only ridden it once, but it looked so good and felt so good. That's my favorite board.
Yeah, I do—I used to listen to a lot of, like I said before, like Rage Against the Machine and heavy music like that to get me pumped. But now I don't do it like that.
Michael Frampton
Do you listen to music before you—
Karl Attkins
I listen to way more calming music to just get myself in—yeah, kind of a better headspace. Yeah, for sure. I used to, when I was a lot younger, listen to Rage Against the Machine, pumping, go out and do that. But yeah, just kind of listening to more cruisy music just gets me in a better headspace.
Yeah, right now.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Do you have a favorite surfer?
Karl Attkins
Varies all the time—like depends what I see, like depends what clip I see of them or different things. I have, you know, probably said a lot of different guys are my favorite at different times. But big wave guys—I love Greg Long. I think he's the man. I like what he's about, and just—I’ve actually never met him, but he just seems like a really well-natured, solid dude and, you know, loves surfing big waves. But yeah, I really like what he's about.
Yes, he's pretty up there. Cool.
Michael Frampton
Any advice for people out there that want to get better at surfing—closing words?
Karl Attkins
Words for—if it's for surfing big waves, preparation. Preparation: number one key for that. Yeah, like anything, if you just be prepared mentally, physically, and with your equipment and everything, it's, you know, gonna help out a lot. I've done it unprepared, I've done it prepared, and being prepared is so good. You know, things are always going to change, but if you can get yourself in the best possible position with the way you feel and the equipment that you have and everything that you can control, it's gonna make, you know, the experience a whole lot better.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so preparation. When you say boards, we're not talking about just having the right boards, but like you said before—having actually ridden those boards as well. Know how they paddle, be it in small waves or—
Karl Attkins
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I've, you know—I went to Shipsterns—the last time I went to Shipsterns, I was so unprepared. It was towards the end of winter. I snapped all my boards and on the way to the airport, I stopped off at the factory to get a board, and I just saw this like 6'2", kind of like semi, like—you know, big fish-type thing. Had a bit of thickness in the rails, and I thought, "This board would go good." And it was—yeah—the worst decision. The board just was not made for that wave.
Yeah, I suffered, you know, severely because of that choice. But then, you know, being prepared and having boards—like going to Cloudbreak, that 8'8" that I said, you know, just knowing that that's what it's made for just gives you so much more confidence. And, you know, the opportunities don’t come around that often.
So, you know, you want to make sure that you're ready for it and not be wishing you had another board when, you know, you’ve waited a long way for a swell or, you know, it’s finally that swell’s come at home and you don’t have the right boards for it.
Yeah, huge part.
Michael Frampton
It's that thing—like being prepared. And we look at the body and your fitness for big waves. And like you said, the opportunities to surf those big waves don’t come around all that often. What keeps you focused? What keeps you driven and motivated to stay prepared for those opportunities?
Karl Attkins
Yeah, good question, because, you know, it's not like you have a competition set on a certain date that you know, "Okay, I have to be prepared for that." You know, you just have to be—kind of—all of a sudden as well. There won't be a swell for, you know, a month or more, and then all of a sudden a big one kind of, you know, comes around the corner and you've got to figure it out. But yeah, just that consistency within the training. But I just like feeling good, so I like to be healthy all the time. And, you know, that's just—feeling good is what, you know, we're all after. So I just do the best I can to be feeling good and be in a good state in my mind and in my body. And, you know, it works well for everything else you face in life—not just for surfing big waves. And then, like I said, it's a really good feeling when you know you've done everything that you possibly can for the surfing that you're having. You know, and the other way around—you know, had a big night on drink or whatever it was before, which happens to a lot of people. And, you know, when I was younger, you know, I had lots of experiences like that as well. Yeah, it's just been a good one for me to, you know, always be feeling good, in a good state through my body and my mind. And then when the swells come, you know, you're ready to go, and there's nothing better than that feeling.
Yeah, just preparation is definitely key. And yeah, staying healthy and everything else—you know, it's gonna work when you're surfing, but it'll work for everything else you do in your life as well.
Michael Frampton
So just always—you just always prepared.
Karl Attkins
Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
Michael Frampton
Well, surfing is like everything else, right? The more time you put in, the more preparation, the better you get.
Karl Attkins
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Okay, awesome. Well, thanks so much for your time, Karl.
Karl Attkins
Thanks for having me.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. Thank you. Cheers.
Michael Frampton
Thanks for tuning in to the Surf Mastery podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews.
Karl Attkins
Please.
Michael Frampton
Share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surf Mastery Surf, and if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That’d be awesome. Until next time, keep surfing.
19 Karl Attkins - Big Wave Surfer
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.
1 hr 5 min
December 13, 2016018: RU HILL - Surf Coach and Founder of 'Surf Simply'
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Unlocking Surfing Mastery and Flow States with Ru Hill
Have you ever wondered how to master surfing while overcoming plateaus and fear, or how to turn every wave into an opportunity for flow and progression?
Surfing can feel elusive—many surfers plateau or rely on ambiguous advice like "feel the rhythm of the wave." In this episode, Ru Hill, founder of Surf Simply, breaks down the art and science of surfing mastery, offering actionable insights for surfers of all levels. Discover why breaking skills into clear, technical steps is the key to elevating your performance and finding flow on the waves.
Learn how to overcome fear and intimidation in the critical parts of the wave with proven drills and mental techniques.
Discover the importance of breaking down surfing into achievable, technical steps—like bottom turns to 12 o’clock and surfing to the targets—for sustained progression.
Find out how intentional practice, video coaching, and the right mindset can help you unlock new levels of enjoyment and mastery in your surfing.
Listen now to discover Ru Hill’s groundbreaking approach to improving your surfing, no matter your level or experience.
Ru Hill is originally from the U.K. where he worked teaching both conventional, entry-level surf lessons and also video coaching with young competitors. Ru’s vision was to create a scientifically informed coaching methodology which bridges the gap between the two extremes of beginner and competitor. In 2007 Ru moved to Nosara in Costa Rica, where he set up Surf Simply out of the back of his car. Ten years on Surf Simply has become a high-end coaching resort which books out a year in advance. As well as running the resort, Ru is now a keen water photographer and co-hosts the Surf Simply podcast with Surf Simply's coaching director, Harry Knight.
Ru is a very experienced surf coach and has a unique way of breaking things down. In this interview, Ru gives out plenty of original advice as well as a new perspective on some classic surf coaching tips. Great tips on; how to overcome fear, how to surf more critically, what 'flow' is, plus loads more, enjoy.
Notable Quote:
"Surfing mastery isn’t about vague feelings—it’s about breaking things down, practicing with intention, and understanding the mechanics. That’s where the magic happens."
"The better you get at surfing, the more fun it is."
"Don’t be precious with your waves—progress comes from experimenting, failing, and learning."
"Surfing is a sport, and if you approach it like one, you’ll improve faster—and that’s where the fun is."
"Mastery in surfing emerges when you focus on the small details, not just the big picture."
Show Notes:
http://surfsimply.com/
http://surfsimply.com/podcast/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8bEqBo6HUYBETZZS2AsMlg
Key Points
Ru explained how he got into surf coaching and developed a scientific approach to teaching surfing.
Ru discussed his methodology of teaching functional stances and board control before standing up, rather than focusing solely on standing up.
Ru emphasized the importance of not being precious with waves and practicing specific techniques repeatedly to improve.
Ru explained the concept of 'surfing to the targets' and bottom turning to 12 o'clock to maximize speed and flow.
Ru highlighted the importance of using specific language and avoiding ambiguous advice like 'feel the rhythm of the wave.'
Ru discussed the different levels of surf coaching, from entry-level to competitive, and the gap in coaching for intermediate surfers.
Ru shared his approach to helping surfers overcome fear and intimidation in the ocean through understanding wave mechanics and decision-making.
Ru talked about the types of surfers who benefit most from Surf Simply's coaching, ranging from intermediate to advanced but not elite competitive surfers.
Outline
Ru Hill's Background and Surf Simply's Evolution
Ru Hill is an experienced surf coach originally from the UK who started surfing at age 15-16 in Cornwall.
They began coaching at 18-19 to fund their surfing trips, eventually moving to Nosara, Costa Rica, in 2007.
Initially operating out of their car, Ru established Surf Simply, which evolved into a high-end coaching resort requiring bookings a year in advance.
Their approach to surf coaching is scientifically informed, bridging the gap between beginner lessons and competitive surfing.
Co-hosting the Surf Simply podcast, Ru has developed a comprehensive coaching methodology based on years of experience and data-driven analysis.
Coaching Philosophy and Methodology
Ru questions traditional teaching methods and uses data-driven techniques to determine effective coaching strategies.
They conducted extensive A/B testing during their early coaching years, teaching large numbers of students to gather data on what works best.
Ru identified a gap in the surfing industry between entry-level lessons and elite competitive coaching, inspiring the creation of Surf Simply.
They focus on teaching the mechanics of surfing rather than just standing up, introducing concepts like 'invisible buttons' on the board to control movement.
Ru emphasizes a 'functional stance' that allows surfers to quickly and powerfully control their boards, rather than just maintaining stability.
Key Concepts in Coaching Methodology
Ru teaches surfers to aim for specific points on the wave rather than just riding down the line, known as surfing to targets.
They encourage surfers to make more vertical turns with the concept of 12 o'clock bottom turns to improve performance.
Ru explains the difference between carving and trimming turning techniques and how they affect wave riding.
They introduce head snaps as a technique for generating torque in turns, though this is not considered foundational to overall surfing ability.
Ru describes rhythm and flow as emergent properties of good surfing technique rather than skills to be directly taught.
Addressing Fear in Surfing
Ru emphasizes understanding wave mechanics through underwater observation and breath-hold training.
They teach various safety techniques and decision-making processes for different ocean situations.
Ru stresses the importance of general fitness and preparation before intensive surf coaching.
Unique Coaching Experience at Surf Simply
Ru hosts 12 guests per week with a team of 9 coaches, allowing for personalized instruction.
The coaching program includes video analysis, in-water instruction, and classRum sessions.
Surf Simply caters to a wide range of surfers, from beginners to advanced shortboarders.
Ru emphasizes the importance of physical fitness and preparation before attending the resort.
They note that the average age of guests is 37, with many being professionals from tech industries seeking to improve their surfing.
Thoughts on Surfing and Coaching
Ru believes in demystifying surfing instruction by using clear, specific language rather than ambiguous advice.
They advocate for a balanced approach to surfing, combining technical training with enjoyment of the sport.
Ru discusses the '80-20 principle' in skill development, noting that significant improvement can be achieved with moderate effort.
They emphasize the importance of continuous learning and improvement in surfing, regardless of age or experience level.
Ru's favorite surfboard is a 5'8" Roundnose Fish by Lost.
Their favorite surf videos are 'South to Sian' and 'View from a Blue Moon.'
Ru's favorite surfer is John John Florence.
They prefer music by Aphex Twin (electronic music).
Transcription
The better you get at surfing, the more fun it is. I'm really excited to teach surfing.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surf better.
Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the show. Thanks for tuning in. A little bit of housekeeping before we get to the interview. Firstly, I've had a lot of listener emails. Big thanks for the emails, guys. It really does help when you send in an email just saying you enjoy the show. That is awesome. It really does help me keep motivated to get these things out, knowing that there's people out there that are listening and appreciating. Having said that, I'm not gonna read any of them out on air. That's not really what the show is about. I want this to be more of an educational resource that's going to be timeless.
So please keep them coming in, because I do appreciate them, but I probably won't reply and I probably won't read them out online, but they are appreciated. Some of the emails have been in regards to the show notes, asking where they are. Now, the show notes are at surfmastery.com forward slash podcast, and then you can just go to the particular show you're interested in and you'll see them there.
Okay, into it. Today's guest is Ru Hill. Ru is originally from the UK, where he grew up surfing and then became a surf coach. He's done your conventional entry-level surf lessons, as well as video coaching for competitors. Ru's vision was to create a scientifically informed coaching methodology that bridges the gap between the two extremes—the beginner and the competitor. And in 2007, Ru moved to Nosara in Costa Rica, where he set up Surf Simply out of the back of his car.
Ten years later, Surf Simply is a high-end coaching resort, which needs to be booked a year in advance. As well as running the resort, Ru is a co-host on the Surf Simply Podcast on iTunes and from their website. I urge you guys, check that out.
My audio on this interview was not great, so I've done the best I can with making it sound less harsh, but please just bear with my audio. Ru's audio is perfect, it's nice and clear. And that's what it's about. It's about the guest, not myself.
So please just bear with that. And this was an awesome interview. I got a lot out of this. Ru is a very experienced surfing coach who's worked with a very broad range of clients. And he's got a very logical, scientific sort of way of looking at surfing coaching, which I love. I love, as a coach myself, I love that—really breaking things down.
And anyway, without further ado, enjoy. Tell us how you got into surfing, Ru.
Ru Hill
So yeah, I came to it pretty late in life compared to a lot of the people that I'm sure you're working with as competitive surfers. I didn't start surfing until I was 15 or 16. I grew up in Bristol and used to spend my summers down at the beach in Cornwall, where the main swell hits the UK. That's sort of the most consistent spot. And yeah, I finished school and I actually went to art college. And I decided that I was gonna take a year out and just move down to Cornwall and surf.
And then I did that for a summer. And I thought, I'm gonna go off and do a winter in Indo. That looks pretty fun.
So I did that and then I came back and I thought, I'm just scratching the surface here. I really need to get into it.
So I carried on doing that for a few years and I got into surf coaching when I was about 18 or 19 as a way of just funding my Indo trips and everything. I guess my whole career kind of like just blossomed from there, really.
Michael Frampton
And what got you into surfing coaching?
Ru Hill
As I say, originally it was just a way of kind of funding my trips. And it's kind of bizarre, actually. I sort of—so this is slightly tangential—but I grew up in a very religious household. And as any of your listeners that have grown up in a similar environment probably do as well, you sort of get into the habit of like picking holes in things and seeing how robust ideas really are when you put them under scrutiny.
And so when I came to surfing coaching and I was just doing the standard entry-level kind of lessons, I was kind of like, I wonder how solid these ways of teaching are. Like I wonder how much real thought has gone into it. Like I wonder if there's good data behind these kind of ideas that are being taught as if they're fact.
So I sort of started pulling at all the threads a little bit and I was really lucky because this was back in the '90s in the UK, and this doesn't happen anymore. But at the time, the surfing school I was working at had a monopoly on what was a very popular beach. And so when I arrived at the surfing school, there were 30 or 40 people a day and I think there were three instructors. And by the time I left nearly 10 years later, on a busy day there’d be 600 people coming through the surfing school and there were 20 or 25 coaches.
And I would get down to the water’s edge in the morning with my lunch on my back and I would do a lesson of 10 or 12 people. And then I would stay down there when they walked up and the next 10 or 12 people would come down. And it was really like a machine—very different to what I do now. But it was actually a fantastic opportunity because it meant I could do A/B testing. I could just say, okay, I'm gonna teach 50 or 100 people to put their hand here and I'm gonna teach 50 people to put their hand here, and I can start actually gathering data on what works and what doesn’t work.
And of course, there are so many uncontrollable variables in trying to do something like that—what the ocean’s like, what the fitness of the people you're teaching is like—that you just have to have these huge numbers to just compensate for all the noise that's going to be there in the data.
And by doing that, I started to kind of tease out what was working and what wasn’t working. And I guess the other thing that really kind of hit me during that time was I was doing some kids club coaching as well with some more experienced surfers who were riding shortboards and turning off the top. And I spent a bit of time helping coach the British junior team as well.
And it suddenly became really obvious to me that as I watched friends of mine who were surfing coaches, and I watched their careers evolve, they all wanted to go off and work with competitive surfing at the highest level they could. And it became really obvious that there were just these two very different industries. There’s this niche of performance surfing coaching for competitors and elite-level surfers.
And then there's this kind of entry-level surf school, surf lessons, how-to-stand-up-on-a-board type stuff, which I'm sure everyone's very familiar with. And actually, 99% of surfing falls in between those two extremes. And there's really nothing out there for them. And that was really where the idea for Surf Simply came from.
Michael Frampton
Did you receive surf coaching yourself? I mean, how did you progress your own surfing?
Ru Hill
Well, I was fortunate enough to work with some—to spend a lot of long winters in Indo with some really talented surfing. And they would do the sort of the giving of tips rather than the structured kind of formalized roadmap that we sort of work with now. And you know who else was a really big influence actually? Martin Dunn, who I think you've interviewed on the show. He was one of the only people around at the time that was sort of publicly making available some of his approach to surfing—to surf coaching, sorry. And so I sort of looked at what he was doing and I thought, you know, okay, that’s all like shortboarders surfing with more speed and power and flow.
And then, you know, I've got these people that I'm working with who've sort of just learned to stand up and catch unbroken waves. And like, how do we get these people from catching an unbroken wave and trimming down the line to the point where they're even ready to start thinking about, you know, compression through their bottom turn and getting really vertical to 12 o'clock rather than, you know, 11 o'clock or whatever?
You know, that big kind of disconnect gap. So yeah, I mean, I kind of approached it by just saying, all right, well, let's try and be a bit scientific about it.
So we'll take an idea, you know, a hypothesis, like for example, let's have the leading hand outside the heel rail rather than pointing towards the nose of the board, which is the way the sort of the conventional entry-level surfing lesson is done. You know, and then you kind of look at, well, you know, how plausible is the mechanism?
So you have this basic idea in science, which I really like, because I think it applies to life really well. So someone has an idea and if it’s a really plausible idea, you don’t need very much evidence to tell you that it’s probably right. And if the idea is really implausible, then you need, you know, a huge amount of evidence to tell you that it’s right. There’s this old saying by Carl Sagan, you know, the guy who used to run NASA: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
So I kind of like took that and like plugged it into surfing. Yeah, and just kind of rethought about how—and about how it could be approached. The first thing that was, I guess, a big shift is we stopped teaching people to stand up as the main goal.
So the first thing that we did was just to try and approach it differently right from the get-go. So rather than teaching people to stand up, which is what everyone wants to do when they first come to surfing because it’s this binary, very obvious thing that every lay person can see—you’re either failing or succeeding to do—we sort of got people to understand that surfing is really just this game of trying to get your board as close to the whitewater as you can without getting your board stuck in the whitewater. And in order to play that game, you don’t necessarily have to stand up.
I mean, you know, you can see kneeboarders and bodyboarders actually doing that really well. So we teach people this idea of, okay, the board has these like invisible buttons on it—we sometimes call it secret buttons.
You know, the accelerator, the brake, the trim right, trim left, carve right, carve left buttons, and all kind of the nuances of the buttons in between those primary ones. And we’d get people while they’re still laying down—like day one—you know, to move their weight around on the board and understand where all of these buttons are.
And then rather than getting them to stand up as sort of the end goal, we’d get them to stand up just because at a certain point laying down on the board, you can’t press those buttons quickly enough and powerfully enough. So then they’d stand up into, you know, what we call the functional stance, which is a way of standing which you see a lot of pro surfing using. And rather than just being a stable way of riding in on a wave, it’s a way of pressing all of those buttons quickly and powerfully. And yeah, and then we kind of like, we kind of take it forward from there.
And it was really interesting because when we started Surf Simply, we had a lot of entry-level surfers coming along and we would get a lot of emails and people getting in touch saying, you know, my girlfriend or my boyfriend doesn’t surf—I do, so I’m not having lessons—but they don’t surf, so they need lessons.
You know, and we kind of had this thing like, well, you know, if you played golf, you wouldn’t say, I don’t need golf lessons because I already play golf, or tennis, you know? And so why does that exist in surfing?
You know, and I think the answer is that there really isn’t very much coaching out there for the vast majority of surfing—it’s just kind of not available. So we had to sort of re-educate people, and most of our guests come from the States. We get more and more from Australia and New Zealand now, but probably about 90% of our guests come from the States.
And trying to actually show them that, you know, okay, this is of value to you. That was about 10 years ago we started Surf Simply. And now 70 or 80% of our guests have been surfing for more than 10 years. And we still have entry-level people come along. And most of what we do is video coaching, and we do a bit of in-water coaching as well, but most people are at that kind of level.
And it’s interesting because we now get booked up about—I think our next opening at the moment is October next year. So we get booked up nearly a year in advance. And yeah, and as far as I know, I don’t think anyone else is really kind of really doing this. But I mean, you’re kind of more aware of the coaching scene that’s out in Australia than I am.
So, you know, maybe it is happening and I’m just not aware of it. But it seems to be something that a lot of people, once they feel confident that they’re gonna come along and actually get coaching—rather than just have a sort of very basic entry-level lesson which really wasn’t much use to them as someone who’s been surfing for five or 10 or 20 years—once they feel confident that they’re gonna get that, they’re really excited to be able to receive it and to have new tools to sort of get away from that plateau that they’ve been sitting on and actually start moving forward again. Because, you know, the better you get at surfing, the more fun it is. And the better you get at surfing, the wider range of conditions you can go out and have fun in.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I think my surfing has progressed more in the past 18 months than it has in the previous 12 years. Just from a handful of, you know, video coaching sessions. It's amazing.
Ru Hill
Yeah, and it’s so fun as well, when you suddenly have new things to be able to go out and work on. I’ll tell you just one little cool story.
So, I mean, this is quite an extreme example, but we have this really cool lady who comes and bakes muffins for us at Surf Simply. Her name’s Lulu, and she’s Hawaiian. And anyway, she’s really got into surfing in her 50s, and she’s now 69. We just had her birthday party last night, actually. And yeah, she’s improved so much between 64 and 69. It’s made me really excited about the future.
You know, I always used to think that I was gonna just level off around in my late 20s, and that was it. So yeah, it’s kind of cool to see.
Michael Frampton
What’s the best surfing advice you ever got?
Ru Hill
You know, that's a tough question. I mean, there's so many things, isn't there? I suppose the—I don't know if this is a specific piece of advice, because I can't remember when the light bulb moment was, and whether it was something specific someone said to me, or whether it was kind of an aggregate of several experiences and working with people. But, you know, I think the thing that made the biggest change for me, and I see impact the most of our guests and really changed their surfing, is when they get their head around the idea that you don't want to turn just by leaning on your heels and your toes.
I mean, of all of the things that we—as all of the things we teach—when you teach people how to carve rather than trim their turns, that's just, it's so great to watch someone's mind just get blown. So I'll just explain what I mean by that in a little more detail. This is a classic thing. This probably happens, you know, three or four people a week, this happens with. They'll come along, they've been surfing for like 10 or 15 years, and they're doing all of the turns on their board by not really getting their weight back. They've got their back foot a little far forward, you know, maybe like—let's say they're riding a shortboard—their back foot's sort of near the front of the deck pad, their weight's fairly evenly on both feet, and they're leaning on their heels, you know, to turn onto their backside, their toes to turn onto their frontside.
And then what's happening—we call that a trim turn, where your weight's not really going back. And then what's happening is the rocker of the board, as the board is put on its side, is making the board change direction. And of course, the shorter the board, the more rocker it has, then the more it'll change direction when you just lean on your heels or your toes, and that trim turn happens. But you hit this brick wall, you know, you can't turn more than 90 degrees doing that—the physics just don't work, quickly, I mean, you can turn very slowly.
So what people tend to do is they ride like a, you know, a bigger board when they want to get their wave count up when they're first sort of learning, and then when they want to do more radical turns, tighter turns with a smaller turning arc, they'll ride a smaller and smaller board, and they're feeling like they're turning better, but they're still just doing those trim turns. And we take people and we put them back on a bigger board, so they've got more speed and they're getting into the wave earlier, and then we teach them about getting their weight right back, lifting the nose of the board up and carving round using the fins.
And when people suddenly realize that they can do that, it just, like, blows their mind, because they've seen all of these carving turns off the top and cutbacks, and they've just not been able to do them, because every time they lean too hard, they catch their rail and just fall off the board. And suddenly showing them, like, the doorway into being able to do those kinds of turns is—yeah, it's really cool. And I think probably, you know, that was one of the things that made me suddenly really excited to teach surfing, because I saw, when I had that realization, I was like, you know, this can be so much more fun with just a little bit of knowledge. And you can be surfing for so long without realizing that.
I mean, I'm sure that you've seen people surfing for 10, 20, 30 years that still really just go down the line and do all their turns in sort of less than a 90-degree change of direction. Can you think of anyone that you know that's surfing like that?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's pretty much most people really, isn't it? Yeah.
You know, if golf had the same, you know, thought process behind it, then everyone on the—no one on the golf course would have a single-digit handicap. But, you know, most golfers get really involved in it, and they get lessons, and they get down to the single-figure handicaps. And, you know, there's a lot of golfers with single-figure handicaps. And I think there's far less surfers surfing each wave to its potential, and to use your words, you know, close to the whitewash. And, you know, you really do need to start learning the way you put it—you know, carving turns.
Ru Hill
And it's interesting, and it's a big kind of cultural thing, I think, in surfing. You know, it's funny—well, so it's interesting comparing Australia to the US, because, you know, in Australia, there's still a big kind of like alternative lifestyle cultural element to surfing, but it's a lot more widely recognized as a sport than it is in the US, where it's very much seen still much more as a lifestyle and as a sort of a—yeah, I mean, it's just not looked at as a mainstream sport in the same way that it is in Australia.
So there isn't that kind of coaching, like, you know, clubby kind of culture and ethos that people bring to it. And, you know, one thing that we say to our guests when they come along each week—and, you know, the way that we coach is just in the format of a week rather than on an ongoing basis. And that's kind of an interesting thing to work with from a coaching point of view as well, which I'll chat about a little bit later. But when people arrive, you know, we say to them, look, we don't approach surfing as a lifestyle. There's all of this cultural baggage that gets hung onto surfing—you know, political ideology, you know, what your job priorities should be, how you should be living, even, you know, what clothes you're wearing, or perhaps even what music you're listening to, and your types of opinions on what kind of food you're eating and, you know, all of this stuff kind of comes as a package.
And we say to people, look, we're just gonna leave all that at the front door. We're gonna approach surfing this week as a sport, just like you would any other sport. And if you leave this week with the drills and mechanisms in place to go on improving, then all of that cool stuff—all of the travel, all of the people you'll meet, all of those moments of sitting out in the ocean and being overwhelmed by the beauty of nature—you know, that's all gonna happen just on its own. Our goal is just to approach it as a sport because that way you're gonna get better quicker, and that's kind of where the fun is, you know.
So we've really tried to depart from the whole lifestyle thing. And it's funny because, you know, I spend a lot of time obviously going online and we do like a lot of photos for Instagram and little short videos and stuff to let people know what we do and what we're all about. And everyone else out there running a surfing camp in the world is making such a big thing about it being a lifestyle. And we're like kind of—I feel like we're pulling in exactly the polar opposite direction to everyone else.
Michael Frampton
No, I like—I love that approach. Actually, looking at your tree of knowledge, and for the level four surfing, you've got "understanding contest criteria," and you talk about, you know, maximizing speed, power, and flow.
I mean, that's the criteria for contests. But if you have that approach in mind, it's the fastest way to progress, is what you're saying here, which, you know, makes sense.
So you're looking at it from a sport, but it's completely relative. If you think surfing is an art form or a lifestyle, it's still relevant.
Ru Hill
Yeah, and it’s funny, actually, you know, we talk about—although in that kind of tree of knowledge, and just for your listeners that might not have seen it, the idea is that we put—obviously it's a massive oversimplification because you couldn’t put all the surfing skills in an infographic without it being completely overwhelming—but the idea is that you have, you know, the core surfing skills in different colored bubbles. And when you can do any one of them, most of the time—not all the time, because, you know, you can never have 100% success rate—but you can move on to the next. And if you skip out some of those steps, you can keep going, but you’ll always hit a brick wall unless you kind of go back and fill them in. And we’ve sort of split it up into four levels. The level one stuff is in the whitewater. The level two stuff is catching unbroken waves. The level three stuff is performing horizontal maneuvers.
So primarily cutbacks, roundhouse cutbacks, floaters, and pumping as well. And then level four is, you know, more like the sort of stuff that Martin Dunn is teaching—you know, vertical surfing. And like you say, starting to surf more to the contest criteria with more speed and power and flow. But we introduced that contest criteria and talked to people about it right the way back when they’re sort of first going out the back and catching waves.
And, you know, I really think if you go out and you try and, you know, stand on your board and just look cool with your unbuttoned hipster shirt blowing in the wind going down the line, you might enjoy that one wave a lot more. But five or 10 or 20 years later, you haven’t really improved that much. If you’re constantly trying to surf to the critical part of the wave with better flow and more speed and more power—any one given wave, yeah, you’re probably falling, you’re more likely to fall off because you’re trying to do stuff that you can’t do. But, you know, the aggregate of those constant attempts over 10 or 20 years is that you’re improving more.
And, yeah, and that means you get all that much more joy out of it. And it’s funny because the ironic thing for me is—and this is just, I’m only saying this because I think it’s funny, not really because I have any problem with the whole concept of free surfing. I think it’s a wonderful thing. But I always think that the contest surfers are going out there and actually trying to surf with more speed, power, and flow. They’re trying to surf the wave better and get deeper in the barrel and do all this stuff. The sort of the free surfing—they’re actually going out and basically, as far as their job goes, they’re trying to get their photo taken or trying to get good footage for a movie.
So while the free surfing route is often sort of sold as the more soulful side, it’s almost ironic, isn’t it, that the contest surfers are actually trying to surf the wave better, and the free soulful guys actually are trying to get their photo taken. And when you look at it like that, you’ve got to be like, well, which one is more soulful?
You know what I mean?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and the pro surfing end up with the best free surfing videos anyway.
Ru Hill
Yeah, I mean, how much are you looking forward to all the footage that's gonna be coming out from Taj now that he's off the tour and can do what he wants? Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and me personally, I think surfing needs to be approached in both ways. I think to spend some of your time surfing really breaking things down and spending time working on just one thing for a surf, and then when you do just decide to go out on a free surfing, you have so much more fun.
Ru Hill
Yeah, and absolutely, that's a really important part of it as well. You know, the last few years, I've spent most of my time training coaches rather than coaching. And one of the big lessons that we teach them is when to stop coaching, when to just pick up on the emotional cues that people are a little overwhelmed, and when you step back, and when you suddenly change the conversation and you ask them about something totally unrelated to surfing just so that they relax and switch off. Because it's definitely possible to overthink things, as in all sports coaching, that's kind of a problem.
So yeah, going out and having just free surfing and not thinking about it and just having fun is a really important part of it as well. I mean, that's when you kind of reap the rewards of the previous year's worth of drills. And actually, when people go away, one of the things we say to them is, you know, we hope you'll get some fun weeks while you're staying with us, obviously, but the real point is to give you the tools to take away and keep improving.
And rather than just going for a surfing and hoping you get better, you'll go in the water and have your watch on and be like, okay, for 20 minutes, I'm just gonna practice doing my carving turn. And then for 20 minutes, I'm just gonna make sure that I'm keeping my hand in the right place when I come up to my feet. But then we're like, and then for 20 minutes, you're like, I'm not gonna think about anything. I'm just gonna be out here, just goofing around in the water and having fun. And that's such an important part of it too, I think.
Michael Frampton
For sure. Let's go back to your tree of knowledge, because I think it's awesome. And I'll put a link to it in the show notes for those listening as well. But there's one thing you've got in your level four, which I like, and it's called "surfing to the targets." Could you explain and expand on that for us?
Ru Hill
Yeah. So that's another thing which is like a bit of a light bulb moment, I think, for a lot of people. And that actually came to me from watching a lot of the stuff that Martin Dunn was doing and then kind of, I guess, not moving it forward, but just building on it in a slightly different direction so that it was relevant for surfing that weren't already kind of familiar with that idea of targets.
But a lot of people just think about trying to surfing down the line and make the wave, and that's kind of the goal. And then they hit this point where, of course, if they're surfing faster than the wave, then they're surfing out to the flats and losing speed. And if the wave is outrunning them, then they're getting stuck behind sections.
So you teach people how to do floaters to climb over sections that are breaking in front of them and how to do carving cutbacks to cut back to the pocket and to do a roundhouse cutback and get speed from that pocket of the wave again that way. And "surfing to the targets" is the idea that once you've got those two skills, the cutbacks and floaters in the bag, then you have the problem of deciding what maneuver you should do at any point on the wave. And so we just have the simple idea that rather than surfing down the line, you surf to the targets. And the targets are basically wherever the whitewater is breaking, wherever the lip of the wave is, wherever the critical part of the wave is.
You know, and when you think about a perfect, you know, Indo reef break, of course, the target would just be one target that's peeling behind you, the critical part of the wave. Actually, when you're surfing beach breaks, usually there's multiple targets because we have different sections breaking.
And then every maneuver you do—just as we’re talking about—you know, when you're not Mick Fanning or Kelly Slater, your sort of average everyday surfing going down the line trying to work on cutbacks and floaters and the occasional hitting of the lip—every maneuver you do should end with your target, the breaking part of the wave, hitting the board underneath where your front foot is. Because that's where you get that push of speed from.
You know, when you finish a cutback and you finish it up at the top of the wave and you feel the lip hit underneath your board just at the end of the cutback, and it gives you that boost and you kind of go back off down the line with a ton of speed, versus when you miss the target and you end up getting a little stuck in the whitewater and kind of having to hop around the foam and get back onto the face again.
So that's one example of it. Another example of a target, and this is the first time that we bring it in, is of course when someone's going down the line and the wave's closing out in front of them, so they have a closeout section coming towards them.
And then it doesn't involve such a big change of direction in order to go up and again have that bit of lip hit the board underneath that front foot and they feel that burst of speed as they then come racing down in front of the whitewater out onto the flats. And we kind of talk about how when you're doing a big carving turn and you're putting all of your weight at the back of the board, you're using up speed because you're digging the tail of the board in and lifting the nose up. And the idea is that when you're doing those turns, you're finishing each of those carving turns by hitting a target where you're regaining all of the speed that you just used up doing your turn. And of course, once you start surfing to targets and linking each target together, that's what we think of as flow.
Does that make sense? I'm describing it to you here, but I'm using my hands quite a lot while I'm talking, which is totally useless to all of our listeners.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, no. I mean, you've got so many videos online, which I'll point people towards if they're interested to get that visual. But yeah, no, that's a great way to break it down. I like that analogy. What about—you've got, I'm sure a lot of this tree of knowledge is far more relevant for the guests staying, and maybe a little confusing for those that have never been to your resort. But what's a head snap?
Ru Hill
So when we're going through this, when our guests first arrive, we take them in and we kind of say to them, look, we've got this tree of knowledge and we have it up on the wall and it's about 12 or 15 feet high. And we say to them, look, go and look at it now. It's gonna look completely overwhelming. But as your week and your coaching goes on, you're gonna start recognizing bits and going, we did that now, and then we're gonna do that next, and then we're gonna do that next. And this sort of path opens up in front of you. You can see where things are kind of leading to next.
So it kind of makes sense a lot more as part of the coaching program. When your listeners are looking at it, it's not really meant to be just seen completely independent of anything else, you know. But the head snaps up at the top—that's pretty much when you're coming up and you're doing a turn and you're really getting a lot of the torque in order to bring the board around by rotating your upper body very quickly, as opposed to by carving off your heel on your back foot. And if you look at that, like a lot of the other things on the tree of knowledge, some of them sit on the side and they don't lead on to anything else.
And head snaps are one of those things. And it's kind of interesting because there are some things which you might not think are important, but are absolutely foundational to everything else you do.
I mean, you know, level four coaching—your bottom turns is a really good example that you'll hear competitive-level coaches talk about all the time. And then there's other things which, you know, everyone would like to be able to do because they look kind of cool, but they don't really lead on to anything. They're a little bit of a dead end.
And you can see like a head snap is kind of sitting on the side—it's kind of a fun thing to be able to do, to have in your arsenal, but it doesn't lead on to anything. Does that make sense?
Michael Frampton
Okay, cool. What about bottom turns to 12 o'clock?
Ru Hill
So again, that's just the idea that you're looking at the wave from the beach, and 12 o'clock is straight up, you know, like vertical. So a lot of people, you know, they get pretty good at bottom turns, but they bring their bottom turn up so that they're coming up sort of at 45 degrees to the wave face. So if you imagine you're looking at the wave and it's a clock face, 12 o'clock would be hitting the lip vertically, you know, and three o'clock would be just pointing straight down the line. So, you know, most people, if you're coming up, you know, on the left, they'd be coming up at like one o'clock or two o'clock, something like that. And people don't really wanna come right up and try and bottom turn to 12 o'clock because they're not good enough to do the top turn that will bring them back down into the wave again.
So, you know, what they logically think is, "Look, when I go up right to 12 o'clock, when I go up super vertical, I never make the wave. So I'm just, I'm not gonna do it. I'm just gonna like only bottom turn as much as I know that I'm gonna be able to come back round again."
So getting people to actually go, "Look, don't worry about making the wave, don't worry about your top turn. What we want is just a bottom turn where you go all the way through with tons of speed, come back up the wave, and we wanna freeze-frame on the video camera from the beach of your board at 12 o'clock pointing straight up through the lip of the wave." And once we've got that bottom turn really good, then we can start working on your top turn depending on what the wave's doing and the various ways that you're gonna turn the board back and come back round.
So that's like a classic, you know, level four coaching thing that we do with shortboarders all the time. And it actually kind of falls under a bigger umbrella, which is the biggest challenge for us as coaches, which is getting people to not be precious with their waves, which kind of goes back to that idea of trying to make the wave and surfing down the line. And, you know, with any sport, when you learn something new, there's two steps to it.
There's this first step, which is understanding how you do something and why you're gonna do it and what the body mechanics is. And you can even understand intellectually, like, what the timing is. And then there's kind of trying to do it. And you're thinking about it. It's not in any way automated. And your brain really isn't actually fast enough to react quickly enough to really make most of it happen in time.
So, you know, most of the times you're trying it initially, whatever it is—whether it's, you know, doing an air or a snap off the top or whether it's kind of standing up on the board for the first time—and it all just feels like it's happening too quickly and it's all gonna go wrong. And of course, you know, if you stick with it, eventually it does become intuitive and that takes, you know, 200 reps, 400 reps, 1,000 reps. It depends what the thing is.
So, you know, teaching people what it is that they're supposed to practice, but then teaching them not to be so precious with the waves that they don't wanna keep with it. You know, people always wanna like shy away from the stuff that's gonna take 200 reps because they're like, "You know, I could just surf down the line and that's pretty fun and that's gonna look cool." And teaching people the value in actually riding off a wave and kind of going for it.
And actually it's funny—that concept is so important and it's so critical to surfing coaching. And I actually learned it from when I was at art college, bizarrely enough. Our art master in London would—he saw us, everyone being very precious and, you know, like most artists, I used to beat myself up about how good any given painting was. I was doing fine art painting at college. And so he used to make us tear up everything we did at the end of every day.
So we would, you know, spend all day working with whatever material it was and then everything would go in the trash at the end of the day. And it's kind of heartbreaking, but it was the most liberating thing because you realize that nothing that you're doing is gonna last, so you're suddenly really free to kind of experiment with it.
And sending people out—and this is true whether you're coaching or whether you're yourself and you're never gonna get any coaching and you're just, you know, listening to this podcast thinking, "I'm just gonna go out free surfing"—just breaking your surfs up into like, "Okay, 20 minutes, I'm just gonna try doing a 12 o'clock bottom turn, for example, and I don't care about making any waves. I'm not even expecting to make one. I'm gonna fall off every time."
And then your clock beeps on your wrist and then you're like, "Okay, now I'm done. I've practiced that. Now I'm gonna surf down the line and just enjoy some long rides." And the value of segmenting parts of your surfing off where you're not precious with your waves will just pay dividends years down the line.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I love that. You're on the money because, you know, a lot of the anxiety in surfing comes from that—you know, that surfing the wave being such a rare and exclusive experience. We don't wanna, you know, we don't wanna mess it up, especially when others are looking.
But to stay on that same kind of theme—surfing to the targets and 12 o'clock bottom turns, head snaps—it's all good and well to understand the technique and the theory behind it, and then you overcome the next hurdle, which is like, "Okay, I'm not gonna be precious with my waves." But there's another hurdle as well, which is just the fear of putting yourself right in that critical part of the wave. How do you help people overcome that?
Ru Hill
That's a really good question, and actually, there's kind of two parts to that. I mean, one is just how do you coach people through being intimidated by anything they're dealing with in the water, whether it's the critical part of the wave, doing a maneuver, or just being out in big Surfing. And then the other part is to sort of talk about how you specifically get people over being worried about hitting the targets. So let me just talk about the second one first. Obviously, it's different for everyone, and you need to work with someone and find out what is the limiting factor for them particularly. But the really common one is that people Surfing with their front foot pointing a little bit forwards—45 degrees—which actually isn't functional, and it's not particularly good for your knees either when you're doing it with your back foot in the same sort of pointing back a little bit. But they have their front foot pointing slightly forwards, and often slightly off to the heel side of the board. That's a really common mistake.
And then as soon as they go up and they hit a target—you know, a bit of whitewater, a bit of lip—and it's hitting the bottom of the board underneath where their front foot is, instead of their front foot absorbing that pressure and turning it therefore into forward momentum, the board actually flips, and it can, you know, catch you right between the legs or in the forehead or the nose. I'm sure that you've seen that happen to even really experienced Surfing when they go up and hit the lip, and their front foot comes off the board and you see the board like crack them in the forehead.
So, I mean, usually it's not quite that dramatic, but what does happen is if people's front foot is just off the center, as soon as they have the foam hit, the bottom of the board wobbles and, you know, usually they'll come off the board. And actually, you know, this is one of those things where we take them right back to their functional stance. The hands are on either side of the rails, the front foot's square on the front foot, the toe is well on the toe side of the stringer. And then the knee really absorbs that power when it hits the bottom of the board. So, you know, that's just one example of a classic way you can coach someone through that particular problem.
But just talking more generally about being intimidated in the ocean, there's—like most things—there isn't any one magic answer. You kind of have to approach it from multiple angles. So, you know, being out in big waves particularly, or having the confidence to stuff yourself in the pocket when you want to run for the shoulder, comes from really understanding what's going on and the mechanism of how the wave's working. And, you know, we spend time with people who will go out with a mask and swim down under the waves when it's big and really watch what's going on. And we'll get them without a board to sit a little closer to the wave so that, you know, they'll get sucked up and over or sit a little further down so that they don't. And so they really understand what's going on underneath the water. And we've found that really changes it for a lot of people because suddenly it's not this mysterious, scary world of blackness, but they really kind of know what's happening.
Then there's—you know, we do breath-hold training, which is really important. And again, that helps people a lot. General fitness training, understanding all of the things that can go wrong and how you can deal with all the situations the ocean throws at you. So, you know, one thing we do is we teach people about, you know, leash climbs and safety positions for getting in, and the different ways that you can get through waves on boards that you can duck dive and boards that you can't duck dive. And then we'll kind of sit down with people and we're like, "Okay, you're on the inside, you've got a wave about to break on your head, you've got a Surfing coming down the line, and you don't know which way to go. The beach is here or the reef is here. This is the situation." We'll draw it out on the whiteboard. "What choices have you got?"
And then, you know, there'll all be things that we've gone through before—five or six different options that they've got for tactics for dealing with the situation. And then we'll talk about the pluses and minuses of each tactic. And then what you have is people who are in the ocean who are still gonna wipe out, still gonna roll around, and still get intimidated by waves. But instead of just being in blind panic mode, they're like, "Okay, we sat in the classroom and we talked through this situation. And I've got three options. And if I choose the worst of those options, I know that I'm still gonna be okay. And, you know, if I choose the right one, I'm still gonna get rattled a bit, possibly, but at least I'm gonna minimize it so it's gonna be efficient."
And then it becomes just a simple decision-making process. The whole process of being out—not just Surfing, but paddling out and being in the impact zone—just becomes a, "Shall I do A, B, or C?" You just keep making decisions all the way until you're either out the back or you're back on the beach.
Michael Frampton
Nice, that's a great way to look at it. And I totally agree, knowledge is power.
Ru Hill
Yeah. And knowledge is fun. Yes.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, well, that's what sparked the conception of this podcast, is that just little tips like that and shifts in perspective—and obviously going and getting lessons and doing courses—they just stack up on top of each other, and the next thing you know, two years later, your Surfing has progressed so much more than if you hadn't have invested all that time and knowledge and courses and things.
Ru Hill
Yeah, and I think there's, for a lot of people, there's still a real stigma about being coached in Surfing. I think people feel self-conscious about it. I mean, I think it's something that people do for fun, and they feel like if they go and get coached, then it sort of says that they're taking it too seriously, and they kind of feel—as I say—they kind of feel self-conscious. We have this chat with people before they go out and do their first video lesson.
And if you don't have this conversation with people, you can guarantee that they'll go out and then they'll come back in like a really dark place in their head because they didn't Surfing as well as they wanted to for the camera, you know? And when people haven't seen themselves surf before and then they see it on video for the first time, you know, it's mortifying. It's like hearing yourself sing for the first time. It's just not good.
You know, so we kind of say to people, "Look, when you go out there, you're not gonna surf your best. The chances that you're gonna do your best Surfing exactly the same session that we pulled the camera out and video you is almost zero. It's just not gonna happen. And not only are you not gonna Surfing your best, but you're gonna go out there and you're gonna make some stupid mistakes. You know, you're gonna go over the handlebars, your hand's gonna slip off the rail, you'll misjudge the wave and nosedive. And then you'll think in your head, 'The coach is gonna think I always Surfing like this, and usually I'm much better than this. This whole thing's a total waste of time.'"
And then you kind of go down that little dark spiral. So, you know, I think it's really important—and for anyone that's listening to this that does video coaching, this is a really important conversation to have with people. Tell them you're only gonna be looking at the things that they're doing four, five, six times. Only the repeated mistakes you're gonna be addressing. The one-off mistakes, you're just not even gonna address them. You're just gonna move on.
And just telling people that gives them the freedom to go out and actually Surfing and have fun. And in front of the camera, which gives you much more useful footage to work with later on. And it's good to point out to people that really the most useful thing they can do for you as a coach is to make every mistake they ever make Surfing that time when you've got the camera out and the camera's pointing at them. I mean, they may feel really stupid, but that's fantastic because it means that you can address everything. And the most unhelpful thing they can do is actually to go out and Surfing their best—you know, way better than they usually do. Because then when you come in, you're gonna be addressing all the wrong things.
Michael Frampton
That's a good way to put it. Yeah, I wish someone had told me that ages ago. I've got another question. On your website, on the Surfing coaching section, it's got, and I quote, "You will never hear us offering ambiguous advice like 'feel the rhythm of the wave.' Instead, we communicate, you know, blah." Basically, you're saying, you know, we wanna break it down, demystify it, and simplify it so people can learn it. Now, if I backpedal and go back, some of my previous interviews I've done, a lot of the surfers and surf coaches are often talking about the feeling of Surfing. Can we logic, can we analyze that?
Ru Hill
So, yeah, there's two things there. And actually it's funny, because I was listening to a couple of your podcasts before and, you know, the people you're interviewing were using that same expression. And I thought, we can talk about that. That's awesome.
So first of all, that part of the website, the point that we're making isn't that everything can be completely broken down technically and, you know, we all enjoy Surfing and there's an emotional aspect to it, which isn't what we do. We just teach people how to Surfing technically better, and then we hope that kind of joy comes as an emergent property of that. But what we don't do is use ambiguous language.
So whenever possible, if we're gonna bring in a technical term—and I think this is just true of teaching across the board actually—but whenever you wanna communicate something, I think it's really important if you're gonna bring in a term, like earlier I was talking about trimming versus carving, you know, I was very careful to define what I meant by trimming and carving. And, you know, that's really the point. I see a lot of Surfing coaching going on where people use what I would call, you know, circular logic.
So they'll say, "I want you to do this better by doing it better." For example, "I want you to have more speed through this cutback, so really drive through it." You know, it's kind of like you're telling the guy you want him to go faster when he's coming out of the turn, and so the way you want him to do it is to go faster when he's coming out of the turn.
So we wanna use really specific language, and we don't wanna just try and explain something by just saying the same thing in a different way. That's really the point.
The specific example of feeling the rhythm of the wave is interesting because there's a lot of aspects of Surfing—and this kind of comes down to critical thinking actually, and, you know, evaluating how valid a specific hypothesis is, right? So there's a lot of aspects of Surfing that are emergent properties of Surfing well, and you hear coaches talk about them as if they are things that you need to do.
So let me give you an example. Going back to that cutback example, right? If you're going through a cutback and you're coming out of it with a lot of speed, there's a reason why Conner Coffin comes out of his cutbacks with so much speed, right? And telling him just that he needs to, you know, drive through it faster or make sure he turns in rhythm with the wave actually doesn't really help because you're just left as the Surfing thinking, well, yeah, okay, I know what it looks like when someone's in rhythm with the wave, but how do I get in rhythm with the wave if I'm not in rhythm with it? Just having someone tell me doesn't really help.
You know, one of the things that we often see is someone like Tom Curren connecting different maneuvers together really well. It's just as a classic example when I was growing up. And that's because each individual maneuver has been performed at the right time. And the emergent property is—the aggregate of all of those maneuvers is—that there appears to be a fantastic rhythm as he Surfing along the wave.
But you can't tell someone to do the end result. You have to tell them how to do each maneuver and how to judge each next maneuver. And then the emergent property is, you have this sensation of rhythm and this appearance of rhythm as you watch someone else.
Another example in competitive Surfing is, we talk about—this is a classic conversation you've heard a thousand times—you know, "Are you gonna win the world title?" You know, said to insert title contender's name here. And then, you know, they'll say, "Hey, I'm just trying to focus on winning heats, and it's just one heat at a time," which is exactly the right response.
You know, winning the world title is an emergent property—on a much bigger scale, obviously—to having rhythm in a wave. But it's an emergent property. And actually winning heats is the mechanism by which you get there.
So, you know, what we try and do is teach the mechanism rather than just tell people, you know, "This is what you wanna do." And those are two specific kinds of language, which I think a lot of teachers—and this isn't a Surfing coaching thing, this is just a teaching thing—I think a lot of teachers and sports coaches fall into that trap. And we certainly do too, but we try to be aware of it and we try to avoid it as much as we possibly can. Does that make sense?
Michael Frampton
Definitely. Yeah, just if we go back to your, like your Surfing to the targets. If you went out and spent a session with an intermediate surfer saying, "Hey, I really want you to surf to these targets," they might come out of that session and they would describe their Surfing as being more rhythmic and more flow, they have more flow. So that's how they would describe the feeling of Surfing. But you didn't coach that in those terms. You really broke it down into, you know, Surfing coaching.
Ru Hill
Right, exactly. I mean, so again, just to use that world title example, you know, I mean, if you were coaching someone to win a world title, you wouldn't say to them, "I want you to win a world title." You'd teach them how to Surfing each wave and get the highest score, you know? And then like I say, the world title, or the contest win, you know, or even the heat win, you know, that comes as a result of doing the other stuff.
So we just, we try to make sure that we don't put the cart before the horse, which I think a lot of people do.
And, you know, it's really interesting. I don't know if you ever listened to our podcast, but me and Harry—our coaching director—and some of the other guys, we're all kind of a little nerdy, and we're quite into science and we're quite into critical thinking. And it's funny how many lessons you can take from that and you just kind of like plug it into Surfing coaching and you get some interesting things come out.
You know, one of the common ones we were talking about on the podcast recently and that we use all the time is not mistaking correlation for causation. You know, so one of the classic things that you see a lot of videos—like online Surfing videos—do is that, you know, a pro Surfing will do a really nice turn and then the guy doing a voiceover on the video will say, "You can see how, you know, whichever the Surfing is, he's holding this hand here, he's holding this hand here, he's compressing here, and therefore that's how you do the turn."
And it's like, well, possibly, but you don't know which of those things are causing him to do the turn really well and which of those things were actually—if you took it away—would the turn work just as well?
You know, and that's more true for turns off the top than turns off the bottom. But even in bottom turns, I mean, look at how John does a bottom turn, and it's almost like contrary to how bottom turns were taught through most of the late 90s and early noughties.
You know, sort of more up straight and with his hands less out. So it's just kind of interesting making sure that one doesn't assume that just because a Surfing is holding their body in a certain way, that is necessarily the thing that's making them Surfing well.
You know what I mean? And again, you have to use that process of, all right, well, you know, if something is very plausible, then, you know, we don't need a lot of evidence to be quite convinced it's probably right. If something's really implausible, then we need a lot more evidence to find out if it's right.
And, you know, there's not really anyone out there at the moment who's really, you know, doing a deep dive and trying to like do A/B testing and really find out what works and what doesn't work. And it's very tempting to just think, "Look at how good all the best Surfing in the world are. They must be right."
I mean, to suggest that they don't know what they're doing is insane. And mostly that's probably true, but there's probably nuanced little things which are going to evolve. Because if we look back at the best Surfing in the 90s, you know, the way they were Surfing was pretty different.
I mean, look at the boards everyone was riding in the 90s, right? It's like, we all got it wrong. Just everyone got it wrong in the Surfing community.
You know, and it would be naive to think that right now we are at the pinnacle of knowledge and it won't go forward. So, you know, the conversation we always end up having is, what are the Surfing in 2050 and 2070 going to be laughing about when they look at videos of us Surfing today?
You know, I mean, us collectively as surfers in 2016, and trying to think about what those things might be. It's a really difficult thought experiment.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I do. That's what I love about your podcast, is you really do nerd out and break things down and educate us a lot. I mean, that's awesome. I think Surfing needs more of that. And I think there's a misconception in the general Surfing public that a lot of good surfers are just good surfers because, you know, they started when they were five and they're natural athletes. But the more I get to know these Surfing, just being in the industry, the more I learn how much goes on behind the scenes. Like, so much goes on behind the scenes. It's ridiculous. Like, these surfers that are Surfing at these high levels, they are completely 100% obsessed. Like, they are not watching Game of Thrones at night. They are watching Surfing videos and slowing them down and breaking them down and doing yoga. They're not doing what most people do to chill out at night. They're studying Surfing and they're really, you know, they're spending money on boards and footage and there's so much that goes on behind it, so.
Ru Hill
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, Game of Thrones is pretty good, so that's a bit of a sacrifice.
Michael Frampton
Well, you do have to sacrifice, don't you?
Ru Hill
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, there's an interesting—I can't remember who wrote it off the top of my head—but there was a really interesting kind of thesis that I was reading on TechCrunch the other day. And he was some, like—it was written by some CEO startup from Silicon Valley, you know—and basically he'd written this idea, which is apparently quite well supported by research, that you can put in, if you imagine in order to be the best in the world at something, you have to put in 100% effort, right? Just sort of to give you a scale, right?
So if you put in about 20% of that 100%, you can actually get up to being about 80% good at something, and then to climb from 80% to 100%—in other words, that difference between being, you know, the best guy at your local beach break to being on the world tour—that takes the other 80% of effort. It's called the 80-20 principle. If any of your listeners are interested, if you Google it, I'm sure there's a ton of articles they can read. But I mean, it's kind of interesting, because again, we focus mainly on people who are not those elite level competitive surfers, but are just, you know, everyday surfers that you're Surfing with every day out at your beach break.
And I think sometimes they're almost intimidated by knowing how much work those top guys put in and they kind of think like, yeah, I just Surfing for fun, I'm not really into doing all of the drills and the coaching and the cross training, because like I'm not a competitor. And it's like, well, actually, you don't have to, you know, give up watching Game of Thrones. You can just put in 20% of the effort and see a huge increase.
And unless you're prepared to put in the other 80%, no, you're not gonna make it up to that elite competitive level. But most Surfing aren't. I mean, most of us are in it for the—well, you know, the reason that I'm in it is because, you know, I just really like being out in the water and Surfing and I love having something that I enjoy that keeps me fit, you know, especially as the years go by. So, you know, I think it's just worth bearing that in mind.
And it's kind of hit me recently as well. I'm sort of just coming up to 40 now. The average age of the guests that come and stay with us is 37. We have a lot of people in their 30s and 40s and 50s come along. But most of our guests are like really fit, really smart, capable people. And they just have either come to Surfing later in life or they surfed when they were younger and then family and career took over.
And then before they come and stay with us, you know, we send them a whole training program of swimming and whatnot to do in preparation for coming, because it's quite a full-on physical week. And people come along and they're like right in the peak of their fitness and they're really smart people, you know. It's not a cheap week.
So people have to have been good at something to make enough money to come along and stay with us. We had a bunch of people come from Google and Facebook and—I don't know—the word, I guess, the gossip's kind of gone around. So now we have a ton of Silicon Valley types come from Google and Facebook. And you know, they're really smart, interesting and interested people. They're really interested in stuff and really capable. And, you know, watching the way that those people approach Surfing later in life is really inspirational to me, you know, because they're so passionate and they so want to be good at it.
And, you know, I think we all tend to just, again, think of this binary thing of there's like, you know, the beginner doing their kind of lesson and then that's it and we don't take them very seriously. And then there's the really good free Surfing who's the best guy at the beach who you'd never see him at a Surfing school. And actually, you know, these people that are kind of right in the middle there, to me, are just fascinating.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, totally. And you know, nowadays with the internet, we have all those Surfing that are willing to put in that 20% to improve. There's so many resources online, like just your YouTube channel, for instance.
You know, I urge people, listeners, to go and check out the Surfing Simply website and the YouTube channel and just start learning. And for sure, go and check out what the Surfing Simply Resort is offering. It looks pretty amazing. It looks pretty awesome. Now, is there any Surfing—thanks, Mike—is there any surfer that would get nothing out of your resort? It doesn't—it looks like even an advanced surfer would enjoy their stay there.
Ru Hill
So, you know, I guess there's sort of two ends of the spectrum. You know, we sometimes have people come along who are coming along as, like, with a friend or, you know, it wasn't really their thing to come along, but they were coming along with a partner or with a friend. And like their physical fitness just becomes the limiting factor pretty quickly.
So, you know, if people come along and they're not in great shape, you know, we always say, look, we're gonna make sure you have a fantastic time. I mean, we have 12 guests each week and we have nine coaches that work with our 12 guests. So, you know, usually it's like one-to-one or two-to-one. It's not like you're going out in a class.
You know, so your coach takes it at the same pace. You know, we never mix ability or fitness levels within, you know, little groups. But yeah, I mean, it's kind of a bummer when you see people and you think, look, you've got all the pieces there, but if you're out of puff, you know, after half an hour, that's a very difficult thing to work with as a coach.
You know, you just kind of have to slow the pace of things down. You do a little more theory, you take everything a little slower. But, you know, I would really urge people that are thinking about coming along to get in shape before they come. That's one thing.
And then, you know, right at the other end of the spectrum, you know, we work a lot with people that are shortboarding and interested in tube riding. We've got a really nice, heavy beach break. It's not the one that we Surfing at every day, but it's about 15 minutes' drive north and it's sand-bottomed.
So that's a great little place for practicing tube riding. We work a lot with vertical Surfing, as we've talked about, on shortboards. When people start getting, like, up in the air, you know, and doing rodeo clowns, that kind of stuff, and really focusing on specifically competitive Surfing, then that then is a little out of our pay grade.
I mean, you know, we work with a few people like that, but that's not really what I would say our specialty is. They do much better checking out somewhere like where you are at the High Performance Center.
And actually, if any listeners are in the US and they've got under-18s that want coaching, one of the guys I used to work with called Al Esbir runs a program called Initiative Surfing. And we used to work together, and he sort of branched off and he just now works with young competitive kids between like 12 and 18—12 to 18 I think he does. But he runs a great program.
So yeah, you know, those are the two kind of bookmarks, I guess, at either end of what we work with.
Michael Frampton
Yep, okay. And folks that wanna learn more, just go to surfsimply.com. Pretty awesome website. You guys have created a great website full of loads of information, but it almost looks like just looking at the website, you just know what you're gonna get. You guys have got everything covered—meals, accommodation, Surfing, education, yoga, blah. I'm hoping, I'm actually moving to America soon. Hopefully I'll get the chance to go and come and stay with you guys.
Ru Hill
It'd be great to have you down here sometime. That'd be awesome. And yeah, thanks. I really appreciate the kind words about the website. I mean, we have like seven or eight—no, maybe a few more than that—maybe nine or ten Surfing coaching tutorials just to kind of really give people an idea of what we do. They're a little bit out of date now. So I probably need to shoot them on an HD camera to keep up with what the internet has to offer these days. But people seem to find them helpful. So if they're helpful to any of your listeners, that's great. And thanks so much for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. I'm a big fan of what you do. I think it's fantastic.
Michael Frampton
Thank you. And by the way, listeners, there is a Surfing Simply podcast as well, available on their website as well as on iTunes. I recommend that. I'm a listener as well. But before you go, Ru, can I just ask you a quick few questions? What's your favorite surfboard?
Ru Hill
So my current favorite surfboard, not high performance at all actually, is I stole off my fellow podcast host, Harry. I stole his 5'8" Roundnose Fish—you know, the Lost Roundnose Fish, the same as the one they had in 5'5" x 19 1/4". And I've been Surfing that for the last couple of months and just having a ton of fun on it.
Some of your listeners might be familiar with Harrison Roach. And we have a little Surfing Simply magazine, and he writes for our magazine as well. And he and I were chatting the other day about an article he just put up recently, which is all about how, you know, fishes are often thought of as small wave boards but they're great in big waves. And I've been trying to put that to the test with mixed degrees of success. I'm not nearly as good a Surfing as him.
Michael Frampton
Okay, I've got a fish just on that note. I've got a fish board called the Alien by Formula Energy, which is a board design that Gary McNeil and David Rastovich came up with. And it's such an all-round Surfing board. It works from one foot to—I’ve surfed it in like choppy eight-foot waves and it held its own far better than I expected.
So go and check that board out, the Alien model from Formula Energy. Okay, the second quick question is, what's your favorite Surfing vid?
Ru Hill
Well, we reviewed South to Sian, and I'm kind of biased because, you know, Harrison made the movie. But I do think it's just a beautiful movie. I really love, you know, the way they're riding slightly bigger boards and it's just beautifully shot. I've got View from a Blue Moon as my screensaver on my computer at the moment.
So it kind of pops up. And I love Jon Surfing. I think that's just a beautifully shot movie as well. I think those two at the moment are kind of standing head and shoulders above the rest for me.
Michael Frampton
Awesome, favorite Surfing?
Ru Hill
It has to be Jon. I'm sorry, that's such a predictable answer. But I mean, it's like, how could you not love watching him Surfing? It's just—it's so good. And he's such a nice guy as well. We were staying next door to him in France a few years ago and we got to have a little chat and yeah, just such a humble, unpretentious guy, very positive, and yeah, just a huge fan.
Michael Frampton
Agreed. Do you listen to music before you Surfing? And if so, what's your current favorite song or album?
Ru Hill
Yeah, I do. I've got my Spotify—I got into Spotify recently. So I'm trying to—actually, it's funny, talking about being, you know, not precious with stuff. So when I got Spotify about six months ago, I deleted all of the music I'd ever owned and just decided to start again from zero in that spirit of trying to not be precious with stuff.
So I'm discovering, like, a lot of new stuff at the moment, which is pretty fun. But I've got a secret soft spot for Aphex Twin, which is this kind of off-the-wall English electro stuff that most people probably hate when I play it to them.
So maybe that's not one I should recommend to your listeners.
Michael Frampton
Okay, cool. Ru, thank you so much for your thoughts on Surfing and I'm looking forward to more podcast episodes, more video tutorials, and hopefully eventually coming to stay with you guys and maybe even future podcast episodes. Looking forward to it. Again, thanks Ru.
Ru Hill
Thank you so much, Micah. I'm a huge fan of the show and I just think it's a great project that you've got going with the Surfing Mastery. So yeah, thank you so much for having me on. Thank you.
Michael Frampton
Thanks for tuning in to the Surfing Mastery podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surfing Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time, keep Surfing.
18 Ru Hill - Surf Coach Founder of Surf Simply - YouTube
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.
1 hr 8 min
November 10, 2016017: Dr. JOHN DEMARTINI - Performance and Behavior Specialist
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Unlocking Surfing Mastery and Flow States with Dr. John Demartini
What separates the world’s best surfers from the rest, and how can you tap into that mastery to elevate your surfing to new heights?
In this episode, Dr. John Demartini dives into the philosophy and psychology behind mastery, exploring how surfers can achieve consistent flow states, overcome anxiety, and refine their skills by focusing on the finer details. Whether you're a competitive surfer or simply looking to deepen your connection with the ocean, these insights will help you unlock your potential.
Learn how mastering the “executive center” of your brain can elevate your surfing performance and keep you centered in the most challenging conditions.
Discover the power of mentorship, visualization, and incremental progress to fast-track your path to mastery.
Understand the balance between humility and confidence for sustainable long-term growth in both surfing and life.
Tune in to discover practical strategies and transformative insights to help you surf with precision, purpose, and passion—press play now!
Notable Quotes:
"A master is one who focuses on every finer detail and doesn't miss a thing."
"The wave is alive—it holds information about the universe, and when you align with it, you become one with nature."
"It's not about being cocky; it’s about being certain—with gratitude and presence, mastery follows."
"Nature rewards humility and focus. Those who fight it never win."
Dr. John Demartini - Performance and Behavior Specialist.
Dedicated to Maximizing Your Potential & Helping You to Love Your Life!
John discusses the differences between good surfers and great surfers - those surfers who are truly on the path to surf mastery. What the greats do differently, how they get into flow states (the zone) more consistently and deeply than most surfers. How your emotions can affect your surfing, how to maximize your presence and awareness in the water. How to overcome performance anxiety and much much more.
If you are serious about mastering surfing then John's educational material is essential for maximizing your potential.John is also a best-selling author, I recommend every surfer reads 'The Values Factor'. There are so many valuable tips in this interview.

Enjoy.
https://drdemartini.com
Key Points
Dr. Demartini defined mastery as the ever greater refinement and more effective and efficient expression of tube riding and riding great waves of all different sizes.
Dr. Demartini explained that truly great surfers put in more mileage, effort, and training compared to average surfers.
Dr. Demartini described how a surfer named Al Chapman would meticulously study the waves and timing of sets at Sunset Beach before paddling out.
Dr. Demartini emphasized the importance of having a mentor or watching videos of great surfers to speed up the learning process.
Dr. Demartini discussed the concept of being in a "flow state" or "the zone" and how it relates to peak performance in surfing.
Dr. Demartini explained how emotions and mental states can affect physical movements and efficiency while paddling and surfing.
Dr. Demartini advised surfers to practice being present in between performances to achieve a consistent state of flow.
Dr. Demartini suggested that surfers who truly love the sport will be inspired to eat well and take care of their bodies to maximize performance.
Outline
Mastery in Surfing
Dr. Demartini defines mastery in surfing as the ever-greater refinement and more effective and efficient expression of tube riding and riding great waves of all different sizes.
Mastery involves putting in more mileage, effort, and training than others.
The ability to master any size and condition is emphasized, turning it into an amazing opportunity.
Truly great surfers demonstrate an obsessive level of dedication, though inspiration is preferred over obsession.
Masters focus on every finer detail that the average surfer is not aware of, practicing in between their performances rather than just during them.
Key Traits of Master Surfers
Master surfers put in significantly more time, effort, and training than others.
They demonstrate an intimate understanding of ocean conditions, wave patterns, and surf spots.
Exceptional accuracy in reading and anticipating waves is a key trait of master surfers.
A highly efficient paddling technique allows for catching more waves.
Maintaining a centered, emotionally stable presence while surfing is crucial.
Refining skills rather than comparing oneself to others is a focus for master surfers.
Extensive practice and preparation occur between surfing sessions, not just during them.
A deep respect for and connection with nature and the ocean is evident among master surfers.
Mental State in Surfing Performance
Being present and focused on the wave is essential for peak performance.
Comparing oneself to others or worrying about competition can negatively impact performance.
Balancing confidence and humility is important; being too cocky can lead to injuries or poor performance.
Gratitude for the opportunity to surf and respect for nature can enhance one's connection with the waves.
Visualization and mental rehearsal of surfing maneuvers can improve actual performance.
Staying centered emotionally and mentally leads to more graceful, efficient movements in the water.
Achieving Flow State in Surfing
In this state, surfers experience heightened attention, quicker decision-making, and smoother execution.
Flow state occurs when surfing aligns with one's highest values and feels like their life's purpose.
Being fully present with the wave involves extracting space and time from one's mind.
Achieving flow state consistently requires practice and focus on being present in the moment.
Comparing oneself to others or worrying about competition can prevent entering a flow state.
Aligning Surfing with Highest Values
When surfing is a top priority, it activates the brain's executive center, leading to better performance.
Surfers who see surfing as their life's purpose, rather than just a hobby, are more likely to achieve mastery.
Inspiration, rather than obsession, drives true masters to continually refine their skills.
Long-term vision and commitment to surfing as a lifelong pursuit contribute to mastery.
Preparing for Optimal Surfing Performance
Proper nutrition is crucial for maintaining energy levels and overall health.
Quality sleep and recovery are important for sustained performance.
Mental preparation, including visualization and setting clear intentions, can improve surfing outcomes.
Studying wave patterns, ocean conditions, and surf spots can give surfers an edge in performance.
Balancing surfing with other aspects of life contributes to long-term success and fulfillment.
Connection Between Surfers and the Natural World
Understanding the complex factors that influence wave formation can enhance surfing ability.
Respecting the power of the ocean and being aware of potential dangers is crucial for safety.
Viewing surfing as a way to connect with nature rather than conquer it leads to a more fulfilling experience.
Recognizing the interconnectedness of all elements in nature can inspire a sense of awe and humility in surfers.
Transcription
Dr. John Demartini
Not letting emotions waver them. Their head will stay centered while they're patterned.
Michael Frampton
Welcome to the Surfing Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surf better.
Dr. John Demartini
Masters, one who focuses on every finer detail and doesn't miss a detail. The average surfer is not aware of those things.
Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surfing Mastery Podcast. It's been a little while since I released an episode, but I promise you the wait has been worth it. Today's episode is my favorite so far. I had the opportunity to interview Dr. John Demartini. John is a surfer from the United States of America, but professionally, John is a performance and behavior specialist dedicated to maximizing your potential and helping you to love your life. John is so much more than that. He's a philosopher, a coach, a teacher. I just urge you guys—this podcast or this interview is well worth multiple listens. And I urge you to go to John's website—that's drdemartini.com. Have a look around. He's got some awesome books, some awesome DVDs, etc. Anyway, without further ado, here is the interview. Please enjoy. Please go on to Facebook and give us some feedback, any questions, etc.
Michael Frampton
Enjoy. What's your definition of mastery?
Dr. John Demartini
Mastery? Well, I had a dream to master my life and I perceived that my life had seven areas. So I wanted to be inspired and do what I do, what I really am inspired by doing. I wanted to wake up my genius and I wanted to have a great mind. I wanted to have an international business, which I did—traveled around the world. I wanted to have a successful business. In other words, I wanted to have financial independence, which I was blessed to have. I wanted to have a global relationship. I didn't want to live in a little suburbia house. I wanted to have social influence. And I wanted to have a vital body at a ripe old age—and still doing pretty good at 62. So that was mastery of those areas. But a master of any field—surf mastery—would be the mastery of surfing and the ever-greater refinement and more effective and efficient expression of tube riding, basically, and riding great waves, all different sizes. Be able to master any size, any condition, and turn it into an amazing opportunity.
Michael Frampton
Awesome. I love that definition. And what do you think separates the good surfer from the great surfer that's truly on that path?
Dr. John Demartini
The really truly great surfers that I had the opportunity to meet put in more mileage. They put in more effort, more training. I remember one time I was at Al Chapman's A-frame on the North Shore of Oahu near Rocky Point, and he was sleeping, and a friend of mine and I were expanding our consciousness. And all of a sudden another guy came in and said, "The swell's coming in." And we knew a big swell was coming. But it was not that big, but it was coming in, and the lines were just—they're coming in out of nowhere. You could see them coming in, and Al looked out his little window and saw the lines and knew the angle and knew that Sunset would be right on. So he got his board.
Al was a unique guy—he was kind of an interesting character. He didn’t really socialize and interact with a lot of people at the time, at least the people I hung out with. And he went out, and so we followed him. And we were sitting on the beach on an incline at Sunset Beach, looking down at him. He was sitting in the sand in a meditative kind of lotus position and had his board next to him, and he was memorizing how many seconds were in between the sets and memorizing, with his eyes closed, how frequent the sets were. He was counting second by second the timing between sets— which one is the biggest wave in the set—and was familiarizing himself with what was coming in.
He was looking at the way it rolled down the beach, as the angle it was hitting the sand was telling it, and he could tell by whether it was rolling sideways or coming straight in. He knew so much about Sunset Beach that he could tell when to paddle, where to paddle. It was amazing. He understood the sequence of the sets—so there’d be like three sets, and then a pause, and there’d be four sets, and then a pause kind of thing.
Other people were starting to get there to go out, and you could see them trying to get out through the shore break, and it was just getting big quick. And he waited. He went out—I don’t think he even got his hair wet going out—and he knew the set. He timed it. He just paddled and he caught the rip at Sunset—there’s a rip there taking you out—and he rode the rip out with one hand paddling gently and the other just on the front of his board.
So we wanted to watch him surfing because he’s a great surfer. We were looking through binoculars, and we watched him go out and he picked, without question, the biggest wave that was coming in. And it was getting big quick. Nobody goes left on a big Sunset—he goes right—but he took off right, and on the drop he swapped and went left into the tube and went right into this massive wall that went halfway down to Belzeland. And we watched this—we said, “This guy's nuts.”
And it was just this giant beautiful thing. He rode this tube into oblivion, and we didn’t know if he—the whitewater was so big that was coming in—we didn’t know if the guy was going to make it. We thought for sure he was on that ledge at Sunset. And then he came popping up, and he came in, and he rode one big wave. He went left, and then he came in and went back to his A-frame. It was the wildest thing.
But watching him synchronize the rhythms of nature and the language of the ocean was such an educational experience. And even though we didn’t accumulate what he had accumulated, and we didn’t know what he knew, we attempted to get a sense for our surfing from that day on that way, and it was very helpful. And that's another step in mastery.
I’m not a master surfer. At the time, there were great surfers. You know, in my time, there was Jerry Lopez—he was pipeline master. And so watching him do Pipeline with such elegance and such amazement was something to watch.
And there was another guy that nobody knew about. He was never in any contest, who rode without a doubt the most outrageous waves, who had a thousand scars on his body and was the most daring guy. And he was never into any contest—never was in any competition. It was just him and nature and the wave. Watching him surfing—he was as great as many of the surfers but never a competitor. He was just out there surfing the big, great waves and was always out there whenever the waves were just perfect—just amazing.
And so yeah, mastery to me in surfing, and watching guys that take it to another level, was inspiring to watch. I saw Jerry Lopez get on Big Monday this one particular time. It was this really big Monday, and I mean photographers were everywhere. It was just this perfect Pipeline and it was giant. An outer reef was breaking and the inner reef was just perfect.
And he was riding this wave—this one wave he caught—and he just got in the tube and he just got so far back in that it finally caught up with him. And then it just—he lost his board, and it came in, and he was standing on—it looked like six inches of coral. I mean, the water was six inches deep. He’s standing on coral, and another massive set is about to break on him. And so we see this massive lip coming down onto Jerry Lopez and just smashing him into the coral. And then we saw his body just floating down in the rip. And they had to go out and get him. He lived through it, but it’s amazing.
I mean, I was on the beach watching that day. I wasn’t out there doing it. A 10-foot Pipeline, which is about 20-foot faces, maybe 25-foot faces—I could be out there, and I certainly wouldn’t take on the steepest ones. I would get the ones I knew I could make. But these guys were just—they just had, I guess, a mastery. They made the most difficult waves look simpler because they practiced surfing. They mastered—they were out there swimming in between the swells, memorizing all the corals, looking at lineups, knowing exactly where the rips were based on the angles, watching exactly how it hit the beach and what the rip was doing. They were into details.
A master is one who focuses on every finer detail and doesn't miss a detail. The average surfer is not aware of those things. And they were out there doing outrageous stuff on it, snorkeling on the calm days and looking at what was underneath and why it was breaking the way it was and where you would have a little bowl depending on where the lineup was. And so they mapped these things out. They were very aware of these details that the average person just went out surfing.
I always say a master is the one who practices in between their performance, and the amateur is the one who practices at the performance. I’m not going to call it an obsession.
Michael Frampton
So you do have to have quite an obsession with something to master it.
Dr. John Demartini
I would just call it an inspiration. Other people would call it an obsession. Yeah, what other people—anybody that doesn't have the surfing high enough on their values to see why they're mastering it—would see it as an obsession because they would think that these guys are, you know, crazy. But they're inspired by the mastery of surfing, inspired by finding out what they're capable of doing. And instead of comparing themselves to other surfing, they would look at what other surfers are pulling off, and then they would look at what they're capable of doing. And then they would look at why they're not able to do that, and they would figure out a way to break through that and observe them—not from an intimidation perspective, but from an execution perspective. They're looking at how they're executing it, what they're doing with their arms when they paddle.
For instance, there were guys that were paddling and they could catch almost two and three times the number of waves because they had skills at paddling. There’s a lot of laws that I teach in the Breakthrough Experience program, and surfing that I've seen a lot of correlates. If you're centered and you're not wavering in your emotions, you perform and are more masterful. And just like in martial arts, when you're centered, you're able to dance—not move all over the place. And paddlers, it's almost like they're hydroplaning—the way they’re holding their bodies up, their heads are steady. You don’t see wavering emotion in their body. You see the centered presence when they’re surfing. They're really masters. You can watch the way they do it, and they outswim, they outpaddle, they can grab waves the other people can't do.
I've seen really great surfing—be behind somebody, paddle more efficiently, get in front and take a wave and get twice as many waves or three times as many waves as a guy that, within the lineup, you would have thought for sure would have made it. But they were hesitant. They were hesitant instead of consistent. And you could see them waiting to see if it was going to match what they knew, instead of taking the wave and creating it. The masters would create the wave and know how to position themselves, and the other ones would—if they happened to catch it at the right band thing, they would take it and then hesitate. If it wasn’t the way they were used to, they didn’t have enough repertoire to use the waves to their advantage.
So there’s just lots of things that the master did that inspired to watch. So they are—they’re dedicated to mastery, their science, their art. Yeah, it's a science and art and a philosophy. Yeah, there’s a philosophy to surfing too.
Michael Frampton
So obviously, you know, looking for the finer details and, you know, just being inspired by others and spending the time—you know, like you say, in between surfing as well as doing lots of surfing—is going to help. But there’s what we call in the athletic development world, and in the extreme sports world, something called being in flow, in a flow state, or sometimes called being in the zone. That obviously—that obviously speeds up your progression. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about some of the neuroscience behind flow states.
Dr. John Demartini
Just like in—not just surfing, but in any endeavor—each individual has a set of values. And if the highest value in their life, say, let's say, is surfing—it’s one of their highest values—then when they’re doing it, they are more likely to be in their executive center in their brain. The executive center is involved in inspired vision, strategic planning, executing plans, and self-governance. It shows up in a body language of grace. They’re fluid. They’re purely adaptable. They’re resilient.
And because they're living by their highest values, their attention is heightened, their decision-making is quicker, and their execution is smoother. There are more refined motor skills than gross reactions. So anytime the person sees that surfing is so high in their values that it’s their way of life—it’s not a hobby, it's their life—if they feel like this is what they're here to do, they’re here to become one with the wave, you might say, those individuals will get the blood supply and oxygen up into the executive center. And that executive center will allow them to have that grace, that being in the zone.
And they'll see, no matter what happens on the wave, they’ll dance with it. And they’ll be spontaneously aware and spontaneously deciding and spontaneously executing according to that in the moment. Whenever you're living by your highest value and you're in your executive center, you have extracted out space and time in your mind, and you're more present with whatever is happening. And you're literally one with it.
If you're doing it because you have to do it, you're doing it because you're comparing yourself to somebody else, and you're not doing it because you absolutely love doing it, you won’t be in the executive center. And you'll be having to work at getting—you’ll think it's about, "Hey, if you work harder, you'll do it," or if—you know. But it's not just about working harder. It’s about being present, more efficient. And that’s what happens when you're there in the executive center. Your body is graceful. It’s present.
Almost anybody in any field who's really congruent with what they’re doing gets to experience that zone. We could call it being in the flow. We could call it being self-actualized. We could call it in the zone. We could call it present. We could give it different names. All different writers have given it different names. But that executive center allows us that advantage.
And it puts us in a—where we're not even in comp—we're not worrying about competition. We’re there. We’re not in competition with somebody else. We’re not comparing ourselves to somebody else so much. We’re actually there to refine our skills and be present with it and being in the dance.
I remember a lady that lived behind me when I was 18 years old. When I moved back from Hawaii, I moved to Richmond, Texas, and there was a young girl there that had a tennis court on her yard. And she asked me if I could play tennis with her. And the first time I went there, I beat her. And for about the first month or so, I beat her. And I wasn’t a great tennis player—I just played tennis—but she said, "I’m learning tennis." And she was taking classes.
And she didn’t care if she won or lost. But she used me as a person to volley balls back so she could practice mastery—her skills. So she had a tennis pro teaching her skills, and she was just using me. I was doing it competitively and trying to win. And she was just trying to master the skill and using me as a punching bag, you might say, to practice on.
Within two and a half months, I couldn’t beat her. Within three months, I didn’t want to play with her because there was no way I could beat her, because she just kept refining her skill. And she was there to master tennis. She went on to do great things in tennis—not only in high school but college and many other things.
So it just was—the difference in the amateur and the person who’s really committed to it is—the amateur doesn’t have the executive center working on their behalf. And the master does. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
So I think most surfing can relate to the way you speak about the executive center, or being in the zone, and you know, time slowing down, etc. But I think a lot of surfing struggle with getting to that place. Even if surfing is one of their highest values, they struggle with the consistency of performance—you know, they struggle to get in that zone consistently.
Dr. John Demartini
Well, I think they're probably again comparing. Just like if you're comparing yourself to another person while you're in competition, and you're assuming that they're doing something greater, you're automatically going to minimize yourself. And the second you do, you're out of your zone. So, you have to take whatever you're doing and see it on the way and ask, "How is it helping me to become greater?" Because if you build up a fantasy about how you're supposed to perform because of comparisons, instead of actually just seeing, no matter what you do, "How is it helping me become more masterful and how do I refine it?"
Foresight and mentorship will speed up the process, instead of having to learn through trial and error. And you'll trial and error it if you don't have a commitment to the mastery. So you ask yourself, "What worked and what didn't work today, and how do I refine it?" And you videotape it. Videotaping yourself and getting feedback from people that know what they're doing will speed up the process.
I mean, just on paddling—just watching—there was a guy in my time called Ipa. And Ipa was this big guy, big kind of a Hawaiian guy, and he had this little entourage of other surfing that were up-and-coming. Some of them were competitive—Reno Abellira was one of them—but there were some that were competitive, and most of them were just local Hawaiians who didn’t like the haole. But over time, at first we had a clash and there was a fight between these Americans coming over there. But after he sees that you're there for a while, he befriends you. And I became friends with him.
And he taught me a lot about when to take off. I could have probably spent two more years there and probably figured that out through trial and error. But he told me what to take off on and what not to on a set, and that one 10-minute conversation allowed me to get another probably one out of five waves, which gave me a competitive advantage to learn how to surf. And just watching him—what he did and how he would take off and when he would get up and when and how he did bottom turns—I found that when he did a really strong bottom turn, his top turns and bottom turns were different.
I was sometimes afraid to make a real drawn-out bottom turn and really use my body properly. And he could go through a section that most people would get closed out on, and he could make it through that section. The way he used his legs and the way he did bottom turns—just watching him do that from above, looking down when he'd take off, and from watching paddling out and from the beach—was something to practice. So having a mentor ahead of time or watching videos of the great surfing and then videoing yourself and looking at the difference, I think, could speed up some of that learning process.
So, how serious are you? That’s what it boils down to. Yeah?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, but there are ways to short—like you said, you know, a 10-minute conversation saved you two years of trial and error.
Dr. John Demartini
Yeah, and there was another guy that had—I think he had a death wish, it’s the only way I can explain it. He had a death wish. He didn’t care if he died. He was able to take off on waves that there’s no way I had the courage or the sense to take off on.
And watching him take off on the waves and making it—and then, I used to go out in the afternoon. I surfed in the morning from about 5:45, 6 o’clock to about 11. Then I would come in and eat. Then I would go back out at 1 to 4. Then I would come in to eat, and I’d go back out till dark. And during the afternoon it was oftentimes choppy and blown out and stuff, and so I never really expected to get a lot of tubes and that because it was, you know, fumbly with waters. But I did it just for takeoffs and knowing full well that I'm gonna lunch it most of the time. And I just practiced takeoffs. That was it.
Just—the afternoon, nobody was out. Nobody would mess with it. It was all choppy. I would just practice taking off on waves and knowing full well that I was going to probably lunch most of them and just get caught, and enough to take the rip out. This was at Haleiwa usually, or someplace, or Laniakea or something. And I would just go and take off and just come in and go back out, paddle again—just to practice takeoffs.
And I found that increased my ability to take off on a wave, and that by doing that I caught probably another one out of five waves. Those two out of five added another 40% to practice that you wouldn’t get otherwise. So taking and itemizing the different components and actually practicing those individual components—incremental changes.
A lot of times people are willing to make this massive jump instead of allowing and honoring incremental change, and just doing incremental baby changes that all add up to make a great performance. I think that’s the thing—I break it down into its subcomponents. When I watched a gymnast who tried to go for the gold and be trained, we did literally little incremental changes until that person could see in their mind’s eye what they wanted.
If the surfing can’t see in their mind’s eye how to execute what they’re going to do in each setting, they’re probably not going to physiologically do it. They've got to see it in their mind’s eye. And that’s rehearsing that on the beach—in the mind—of what they’re going to do. So when they’re out there, that helps. It’s a mind game too. Rehearsing exactly where, what, where the lineup is, what you’re going to do, where the—
Michael Frampton
You mean like rehearsing specific—
Dr. John Demartini
Which wave, I mean. Seeing it in your mind’s eye and seeing what you’re going to do, and then going out there and executing it according to what you’ve decided. Where the agenda up front can be helpful. And then what happens, after a while it becomes automatic. And that’s when you’re in the zone—because now you’re in your executive center again.
Yeah, well watching them to learn something is different than emotionally minimizing yourself to somebody that you're infatuated with. I’ve had surfing—and people in sports—think the other person is so far ahead.
Michael Frampton
Yes, sometimes you said comparing yourself to other surfing—
Dr. John Demartini
They're great. There's no way I can ever do it. They just self-defeat. I ask them, "What do you see in them that you admire? Great. Where and when do you demonstrate that?" And I document where in their mind that they have it, so they know they have it. So they're not enamored and putting people up. They're respecting and appreciating their contribution and their knowledge and watching them for their skills, but knowing they have those components. That allows you not to be sidetracked. In a competition, for instance, if you're in a competition and you're in any way minimizing yourself to some other surfing, you've already defeated yourself. You've got to be able to believe that everything they have, you have, and then you want to master the skill and focus on being present with the wave.
Michael Frampton
What do you mean by knowing that you have what they have? Like, can we take a practical example of that?
Dr. John Demartini
So, if you admire them for their strength and stamina in paddling—good. Where do you demonstrate strength and stamina in paddling? Where have you demonstrated it? Pinpoint where it was, when it was, in the moments it was, and document it in your mind until you can see you have it in the same form in some way. Because it may be in a rip—you stayed in a rip for periods of time and you had incredible stamina and you demonstrated. So it's not that you don't have it. You just haven't seen it in the same form they have, but you've got to see where you have it, when you do. Instead of minimizing yourself to them when you're in competition with them, you're actually seeing you have it, and now I'm going to apply it in this setting.
Okay, so owning the trait is very helpful. Like I say, learning from somebody and respecting them and using them as a mentor is different than infatuating with them and minimizing yourself to them. That's a big difference. And knowing that distinction, I think, can make the difference. It's subtle. But being inspired by somebody and infatuating with somebody are two different things. Infatuating is seeing that they have a positive without a negative. Being inspired by them is knowing they have positives and negatives, and you can see that they use both to their advantage.
You've been to the Breakthrough Experience. Yeah. And you know when you're doing the Breakthrough Experience and you're actually seeing both sides synchronously, there's a different state of presence and love that occurs that you can't get from just seeing only positive sides. Infatuating with somebody—well, just think about this—infatuating with a girlfriend is different than loving somebody. Loving is embracing both sides. Infatuation is seeing one side and being blind to the other side.
So if you're infatuated with the person's out-surfing, you're blind to their downsides, and you're going to think that they have traits that you can't obtain. But if you see that they have other sides and strengths and weaknesses and you get to see they're a human being and that they're applying themselves more effectively that way, you can own those traits and you cannot put them up on pedestals. And you can actually catalyze what you see in them inside you in a more efficient way—because you have it already.
Michael Frampton
It feels like a subtle difference too, because if you're inspired by someone... inspired.
Dr. John Demartini
It's not missing. I've done that. I mean, I've had people in sports do that. I've seen people in celebrities and in Hollywood do that. I've seen politicians use it. And they're no longer intimidated—they're respectful, not intimidated. Infatuating with somebody—Emerson said, "Envy is ignorance and imitation is suicide." We're not here to put people on pedestals. We're here to put them in our hearts. If we put them in our hearts, we love them for who they are.
But I assure you, everybody's got two sides. You could take any great surfing and you can list things that are not necessarily the things you would admire about them. Yes, you can always find both sides. Talk to their girlfriends—they'll point them out. Or boyfriends in some cases. But knowing both sides and keeping a level of perspective on them and respecting them for their skills and their surfing, but not enamoring and infatuating with them, is helpful to help you compete.
Michael Frampton
You mentioned something just before about if someone's paddling and they're not wavering all over the place and they're staying nice and graceful and balanced, yeah, and you kind of mentioned how that might be a reflection of their deeper emotional state—yeah, what they're physically doing. How does that work?
Dr. John Demartini
Let me use an analogy. If I was to have anybody who's listening to this podcast sit up straight in their chair, look straight ahead with their head—but with their eyes, not their head—and look down to the right with their eyes, point all the way down to the right, and try to smile—it's faking. Can you feel it? Now frown down there—feels more natural. Now look up to the left—now it's easy to smile, isn't it?
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I kind of smiled automatically.
Dr. John Demartini
Yes. Now try to frown up there—feels abnormal. So your brain is wired with an uplifting experience and a downright depressing experience. So if you're having an emotion, you're going to have a tendency to move your eyes in different positions. And the second you do, your body is going to respond to your eye positions.
So a person who's focused straight ahead with their eyes and not letting emotions waver them, their head will stay centered while they're paddling. It'd be completely different. There's no movement. And their breathing will be more diaphragmatic. But if you're in any way emotional, you move your breathing out of the diaphragmatic breathing—where you get the most oxygen—and you get up in your clavicular breathing and you're moving your body. And anytime you're moving back and forth, the movement through the water is less efficient.
So your head will be moving, your eyes—because of the eye positions—the head will be moving, the body will be moving, and you'll be tacking back and forth in the water, which is a less efficient path than a smooth thing with your head centered. It's exactly like when I was very young. I worked in the country plowing on a tractor. If you hold a tree a mile away and point that tree and get your tractor in the direction of that tree and never lose sight of the tree, you'll make an unbelievably straight furrow. But if you're looking 10 feet ahead of the wheels, you'll wobble all over the place.
So the longer the vision, the more steady the paddle. And the shorter the vision, the more wobbly the paddle. The longer your vision—if you're surfing for right now, "I've got to compete, I've got to win"—you're going to have less fluidity than if "I'm here to master surfing, this is another contest." The person that's thinking long-term and is looking at their lineup and knows where they're going and is focusing on it—not paying attention to what's going on out there—they're going out to do it, they're going to have a better paddle. They're going to catch more waves. They're going to be more stable. They're going to be less tired. They're going to be more graceful because you're going to be in the executive center thinking long-term.
People who are in the executive center expand the space and time horizons in their view. And people that are not and are there competing and comparing and emotional about things, they're in their amygdala and they're immediately wanting immediate gratification and they're trying to compete and they're sidetracked by the things that are immediately around them. And so that makes a difference in paddling and it makes a difference in your posture.
And when you're taking off, if you're thinking about the last wave or worrying about "you only got one more wave to go" in the heat, you're not present. Anytime you're in the future and you're in your past, you're in entropy and you're in breakdown and you're not in the zone. There's no way you're in the zone. You have to be one with that wave in that moment—present—and love that wave. Be present with that wave.
Michael Frampton
And if you find yourself not present and your mind is drifting somewhere else, perhaps while you're in the water waiting to catch a wave, is there some sort of strategy to bring you back?
Dr. John Demartini
Practice being present in between your performance, so when you're in your performance, it's just natural. Make a commitment now to start mastering that skill. If you're thinking again, if you're comparing, the only way you can be in competition and worrying about something and being anxious—you're not with the wave. You just lost the wave. Where's your mind? You're thinking about what people think about you—that just undermined it. You're thinking about the guy or girl that you're competing with—that mind, you're not on the wave. You have to be ready for that. You have to be focusing on the wave as if you're out there by yourself, out there surfing. Some of the best surf, sometimes, no one ever sees.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. There's often a lot of—even just anxiety—because catching a wave is such a unique and often rare experience that often happens very quickly. Waves can be short. There's often a lot of anxiety around that takeoff. And then, you know, even if you are doing surfing coaching and gaining more self-awareness of the way you surf, it's hard to implement those strategies because of that anxiety and rareness of that wave.
Dr. John Demartini
The thing is, just like in public speaking—as I'm a professional speaker—you never have a fear of speaking. Nobody has a fear of surfing.
Michael Frampton
No.
Dr. John Demartini
Nobody has a fear of speaking. They have a fear of speaking in front of somebody that they think is smarter, more successful, greater, more wealthy, more influential, better looking, better shape, or more inspired by what they're doing. So when you're out surfing, if you're saying in your mind, "They're more successful. They have won more tournaments. They have made more money. They have more fans. They're in better shape. They're better looking. More girls after them," that's it. If you're in that, you're already out of the zone. Because those are automatically competitions, and you're going to compare yourself to them, minimize yourself. That's where I would go in and immediately own all those things.
In between my performance, I would take that surfer that I felt that way toward, I would go in there and identify everything that I admired, and find out where I have it in the same form. Then I would go out there, and I would not be distracted by them, and then I'd be present surfing again.
And then I would go in there and realize that—Tiger Woods. I was walking at the British Open next to Tiger Woods. He came on our ship, you know, with the World, and we got to meet him and everything else—to meet with some of the people there. And then we got the opportunity to walk with him on some of the holes. And he had a caddie-psychologist guy with him. And it was very amazing watching the caddie-psychologist work with Tiger.
When Tiger hit a ball that was phenomenal, right down the red—this is before he had the issues with the girls, this was when he was at his peak—he would say, when he would see Tiger any way he laid it or up, he would calm him down and say, "When you're under pressure is when you do your best. And we still got plenty of holes to do." And he would calm him down and center him again.
If he would shoot it off into the woods or he shot off into a bunker or something like that, he would say, "This is when you're performing. This is when you shine. And this is where you do amazing things for the gallery—the people that are watching. This is when you do the most amazing things."
So he was regulating and giving him feedback to keep him centered. So if he was up, he would calm him down. If he was down, he would call him up—or center him up. And he would get him back on center.
The masters of surfing have the same process. If he's had an amazing wave and he's all elated with adrenaline, if he's wanting to show off and is so puffy and bragging about it, he's on his way down. If he's grateful and he's like, "Thank you to the universe and for the waves," and realizes that he wants to be thankful for the ocean and thankful for the weather and thankful for learning and thankful for himself, and realizes he's part of a whole entourage of people—and goes through that whole thing and sees he's part of that or she's part of that—better than if he goes, "Now look at me and look how great I am."
I watched—I won't give a name—but there was a very noted California surfer back in the early '70s that was a big-shot, hot-shot winner of California. When he came to Hawaii, he didn't do so great. It's a big difference between California surfing and Hawaiian surf—thicker, bigger. You can't do hot-dogging. It was more lines and things in those days than it was this hot-shot stuff.
And so he came over there, and he was cocky, and he was staying in the tent city that we were at in Haleiwa. And he was cocky and he was above everybody else. And he just got humbled. I mean, humbled. He got injured. He was out there cocky and he got really humbled.
And a guy who was in the tent got him drunk one night and said, "You know, I'm going to tell you the truth, dude. You're really tall. You're really—you know, if you want to be a great surfer, you need to love surfing and not love yourself so much. You've got to get out of yourself and get onto the wave and get on with this culture of surfing and realize that we're here as a culture to bring surfing to the world." And it shifted his whole thinking and humbled him.
You could see the difference in his surfing and his willingness to watch and observe and to learn and to listen—it was completely shifted because somebody spoke up to him and got him out of his own self-importance.
I don't think you can be great at surfing when you're too elated with yourself. You have to be grateful for the opportunity to surf, grateful for nature, study nature so you're really aware of it, and then go out there and keep looking at, "How can I refine and polish my skill tomorrow?" Every day is a learning process.
Michael Frampton
It works both ways though, doesn't it? I mean, you can be too cocky, and then you can—like you said—you can bring yourself well down.
Dr. John Demartini
A hubris is a grandisement—pride before the fall. Certainty is different than cocky. Certainty is mastery of a skill, and you're certain you can implement and execute a strategy with a grateful, present mind. Cocky is automatically a persona and mask covering up our insecurities—different.
You've seen people in Hollywood when they're receiving an award, and they are really humble with a tear in their eye, and they're just grateful, and they list all the teams and all the people that made it possible. And they did great performance, and they repeatedly do great performance, and they're just humble and grateful, and they just—they want to master the next one. They want to do a greater performance.
And then when somebody's up there that's a one-shot, big-shot that goes up and—you know—you can see they're above everybody else. Anytime you go above people, you're going to get humbled. Anytime you go below, you're going to get lifted. But when you're in the center, people respect you. And the respect is what—you gain respect. That's when you have the longest sustainable performance, in my opinion.
Michael Frampton
There's—like me as a surfer—you are... If you're a professional surfer at least, you're a performing artist, so you're kind of obligated to put on a show.
Dr. John Demartini
Yeah, but if you're putting on a show for them and you're cocky, you'll get humbled. There was a book that came out on sports injuries many years ago—30 or 40 years ago, about 36 years ago—and it was talking about people who were injured in sports. And when they compared themselves to others and thought they were greater than or less than others, that's when they got injured. Usually greater—usually cocky. That's when they had the most injuries. That's when they had the most tragic falls, injuries, circumstances.
You can do it. It's been shown—centered, grateful, focused, polished, presenting with certainty and putting on a fun act, performance—but you're still certain inside. You know how Muhammad Ali wasn't cocky? He was certain, but he played the role for the market—"I'm the greatest." But there was a certainty factor because he performed. He practiced. He got in the zone. The time he got focused on the show, he got his brain injury. He focused on money. When he was cocky, when he was actually insecure—if you go watch it—when he was actually uncertain and he was trying to put on too big an act to try to cover up his insecurity, that's when he got hurt.
I've made a list in the Breakthrough Experience and in my Prophecy I program.
Michael Frampton
So he wasn't focused on the show, he was...
Dr. John Demartini
I've asked thousands of people who have attended: go to the moment when you've had your greatest tragedies, most powerful injuries—really challenging injuries—and look and see if you were infatuated with somebody else, manic, elated, and cocky, or thinking you're greater or invincible. And you'll find that that's there every time. That's when the injury—that's when you end up, instead of being in the zone, that's when you get closed out and smashed on the rocks. That's when you're trying to—you're not present. You cannot perform your greatest surfing when you're not present. There's just no way. When you're in the zone, you're present. That's when you dance. And that's when you take off on something, your feet aren't even on the board, and you come back and land on the board and it just—it glides and you don't even know how you did it.
So it can't be a cocky feeling. It's—you don't know how you did it. You just felt like you were one with the wave, and the universe is working with you. There is an intelligence that I believe—even Einstein acknowledged—in nature. And Einstein said, "It's enough for me on a daily basis to sit in awe, humble before the intelligence that permeates the universe, and partake of exploring just a tiny portion of it on a daily basis." He had a humbleness like that. Same for Max Planck, same for Schrödinger. These guys were really humble to the intelligence that governs the universe. Even Michio Kaku, who just announced the intelligence of the universe recently in his physics—these guys were... They dedicated their lives to want to know how this intelligence works.
I think that there's a respect for the intelligence and the elegance and beauty of nature—and the life of nature. That's life. Waves are alive. They're filled with information and they're revealing what's going on meteorologically, geologically, sociologically, and what's going on in their mind. And if they're in tune with it, they're working with nature. If not, they're fighting nature. And Paul Bragg, one of my great teachers when I left Hawaii—who inspired me to do what I'm doing today—said that those that fight with nature don’t win.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. How would you define surfing itself?
Dr. John Demartini
Well, I think the tradition—I don't know where the first tradition... I mean, Hawaii was supposedly, you know, where it kind of took its great thing, but I think people have been curious about waves and riding things on waves from a young age—far back in history. I don't know when the beginning is. I mean, I know I've read some books on it. They say Hawaii, and you know, the Duke and all that. But I think it's been going on. And I think there's a—I don't see us—I don't know how a surfer could go anywhere where there's a wave and not just watch. You know what I'm talking about?
Yeah, I just—I don't care if I'm watching a ship go by and watching the waves, or a little lake with little bitty waves on the rocks, or in Antarctica—I watched waves on the ice. It doesn't matter where I am in the world or where I am in the ocean. There's a curiosity about what waves represent. Waves, in telecommunication, represent information. And it's information of what the geology and meteorology and sociology and what animals and plants and everything is doing at the time. And all the elements, and the recycling of the elements of nature—all working together to make those waves a certain way.
Because the density of the water, the amount of salinity, the pressure systems in the atmosphere—whether it's low or high pressure systems, the angle of the wind, what's going on with the time of the seasons, the sun, the solar winds, the moon—every one of those things, the master surfer would explore. All of those things. And want to learn everything they can about nature because there's no boundary between the surfer and the universe, as far as I'm concerned. There's not one thing in the universe that's not affecting the wave. And the more expanded our awareness of what is all affecting the waves, I think the more we're going to be one with the wave, and the less focused on ourself—because we become infinitesimal when we realize the waves are related to the infinite.
Michael Frampton
That's a good way to put it. Yeah—information. So obviously, you know, you've surfing, you've got the practical side of it like you just spoke about. But when it comes to yourself and keeping your physical body healthy through nutrition and movement and things, do you have any recommendations in that way?
Dr. John Demartini
Well, anytime you're doing something—if you know you've got a major, amazing event coming up—you're more likely to be disciplined. A woman who knows she's about to get married will be very disciplined in her eating style to get into that wedding dress that day. A person in any field of endeavor that knows they have an amazing performance to give, or they're going to be doing a special performance, they are usually more refined. And what's shown is that people who fill their day with high-priority actions that inspire them don't live to eat—they eat to live.
So a surfer who's committed to surfing and sees that no matter what's going on in the universe is part of surfing is more likely going to want to feed their body fuel that's going to maximize their performance, instead of just eating junk. I mean, you want to make sure you're drinking quality water because your electrolytes are going to tell you what your performance level is. You're going to want to make sure you're eating the proper proteins so your muscle performance is going to be at its peak. You're going to make sure that you have enough carbs to allow yourself to store energy. You're going to make sure that you study what works for you and do an inventory on that. As Gandhi, to maximize human performance as a leader, he wanted to find out what he was eating every day to find out when he led people more effectively. He watched his diet to find out how he led more effectively based on his energy levels and his confidence levels.
So I think a surfer, if they're fully on, I think they're going to respect their body because it's the body that allows them the medium to surf. They're going to respect it and see it as a temple to take care of. When I was surfing, I didn't have that respect until I turned 17. And then I met Paul Bragg, and Paul Bragg woke my mind up to this. The day I met him, I decided I was going to now eat to live and not live to eat. Beforehand, I didn't even think about nutrition, didn’t think about what I was fueling—just anything. It was whatever would allow me to have energy and I could go surfing.
But then I started eating quality foods and quality nutrients. My endurance went up. My ability to paddle went up. I slept—I didn’t need as much sleep. I could see the impact. It wasn't great—it wasn't like 50%—but it was a five or ten percent change that you could see that was worth that difference. And if you're a competitor and you are, you know, wanting to go out and excel and master this thing called surfing, then you might as well fuel your body and eat wisely.
You may go out and party, but I always say that partying is an escape. I did studies with young children. I had a lady named Betty Paikola who did a research project for me. She was 27 years into the study of human children’s behavior. And so I asked—I paid her—to gather every article she could find by every one of the great psychologists over the last 50 years on child development, so I could learn every stage and every natural stage that was going in there. And I then summarized it. We together summarized all these stages. We had a good feel for all the different theories about child development.
And after doing that, I then assumed that they were accurate because of all their research. But then I came across some children that found out what they really wanted to do at a young age and were very inspired, and who structured their lives in priority each day. And I found out that the normal patterns that those children went through—they didn’t do the normal patterns. They didn’t want to go out and eat sweets. They didn’t want to go out and just escape. They didn’t want to go party. They didn’t want to watch cartoons. They didn’t want to go and play. They wanted to get on with their mission.
And I saw a kid at six years old end up becoming a best-selling author by nine. I saw another girl who's a multimillionaire, now a supermodel and has her own fashion line. Another girl that's now working with Disney and has a five-and-a-half million dollar contract with Disney—and she was a young teenager. But they started at six, seven, eight, nine years old. And once they got really clear about what they were doing, they wanted to make sure that whatever they were doing was going to get them there. And they didn’t do all the normal patterns.
So then I took all that research and I revamped it by starting to not look at what the average person was, but on what the excellers and the peak performers and the people that did extraordinary things—what was their life like? I found a whole new thing. That’s what led me to the understanding of how important values are.
So I find that the people who are really taking—they feel it's their mission to be a master surfer—they're going to act different than somebody who's just, you know, a temporary fix they're going to do for a while. Or they're, you know, they want to show off or they want to excel, or they have a death wish. I watched a kid almost kill himself doing extreme sports and extreme surfing—nearly killed himself and almost became a quadriplegic. And I did watch a guy become quadriplegic. I've seen them. So—because of those—not really taking care of themselves.
Yeah. So I'm not saying that people will, but I've seen it. Yeah. If you're really—you’re going to want to—you’re going to have to think long-term. Because a lot of surfers are out there in the sun, and they wipe out their skin. And by the time they're 40s, 50s, and 60s, they're filled with melanoma.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so again, surfing will inspire you to eat better, live better.
Dr. John Demartini
They’ve been drinking too much, partying too much, drugging too much—some of them—and not really thinking long-term. And that catches you. That eventually catches you. It can shorten the lifespan of the surfer and the life of the surfing. Yeah.
There was a guy in La Libertad, El Salvador. There was an octagon house right in front of the best point at La Libertad by the river mouth. And I used to surf there. And when the big swells were there—it’s such a beautiful right, magnificent right—and you can ride it for a long time. Sometimes it gets 40-foot faces. It just peels off all the way into the back.
And this guy was 40-something years old when I was there. And he was in better shape than any 20, 30-year-old guy. Better. More toned, etc. Even though he was in La Libertad—and that's not known for health foods—he had organic food, organic gardens. He had whole grains. He had fish. I mean, he ate wisely. And he lived in that octagon and he lived for surfing. And he was there and he surfed every day, no matter what was out there. He was out there surfing.
But he went out there early in the morning. He was out there in the evening. And he didn’t overdo the sun. He was smart. And he was endurant. And very few people could keep up with him in his 40s. He was doing stuff that people today are doing, but in those days, nobody did. Nobody was doing 360s repeatedly down the wave. And nobody was coming out of the water and coming back down into the surface—back in the early 70s. That just wasn’t—you didn’t see much of that.
But he was already doing that. And nobody even knew about the guy. He was nobody in any surfing movie. It was actually Jerry Lopez that came down there and met this guy, watched him, and befriended him. And then he kind of made a story about him one time in a surfing magazine. Other than that, the guy was just a dedicated surfer who worked, bought land so he could own that surf spot. And he had a surf spot. That was his space.
Michael Frampton
Excellent. Well, we've run out of time, John, but I thank you so much for your time. It's been invaluable. And I urge anyone listening out there who's been inspired by John's words to go and check out some more of John's material. I can't recommend his books and courses enough. Thank you.
Dr. John Demartini
Thank you. Thanks for giving me a chance to talk about surfing. Thank you.
Michael Frampton
I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surfing Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That’d be awesome. Until next time—keep surfing.
17 Dr John Demartini _ Performance & Behavior Specialist
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.
55 min
August 30, 2016016: JARRED HANCOX - New Zealand National Champ (35+) 2016
Pic: Daniel Valaperta

Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Unlocking Peak Surfing Performance with Jarred Hancox
Is it ever too late to achieve greatness in surfing? Meet Jarred Hancox, New Zealand’s two-time national champion, who proves that it’s never too late to break barriers and elevate your surfing game.
Have you hit a plateau in your surfing or wonder how to maintain peak performance as you age? This episode dives deep into the mindset, training, and lifestyle adjustments that can transform your surfing—whether you’re chasing bigger waves, improving your turns, or keeping the stroke alive.
Discover the secrets of longevity in surfing, from mobility training to smart diet tweaks that fuel peak performance.
Learn how surf trips to high-energy breaks like Indonesia and Hawaii can reshape your confidence and skills.
Gain insight into the importance of the right equipment—custom boards, advanced wetsuits, and more—to unlock your surfing potential.
Tune in now to hear Jarred’s inspiring story and actionable advice on how to keep progressing in your surfing journey, no matter where you’re starting from.
Notable Quotes from the Episode
"Just five minutes a day on your problem areas can make a huge difference within a week."
"The right equipment turns you into the limiting factor, not your board."
"Whether you’re surfing G-Land or your home break, it’s all about preparation and having something to call upon in the memory banks."
"Life is short—chase your passion for surfing and keep things simple. The rat race will still be there."
"Even if you love your TV shows, multitask—stretch, roll, or work on mobility while you watch."
Jarred Hancox - Sponsored surfer from Taranaki New Zealand talks about how surf coaching, nutrition, training, and equipment refinement helped him go from a good surfer in his twenties to NZ (35+) National champ in his thirties.
Results: New Zealand National Champion Over 28s in 2010 & 2011; New Zealand National Champion Over 35s in 2016; Taranaki Surfing Champs Winner 2012; 4 x Opunake Classic winner, 8 x New Plymouth Club Champs winner; 3 x Growcott Memorial Winner; plus many other wins in local events and events around New Zealand. As well as scoring the cover shot on NZ Surf Mag.
Jarred's Sponsors:
1-DA Surfboards: http://1-dashapes.com/
http://www.matuse.com/
www.surffcs.com/
http://www.oceanearthstore.com
Show Notes:
http://www.mobilitywod.com
https://vimeo.com/jarredhancox
https://web.facebook.com/jarred.hancox?_rdr
https://www.instagram.com/jrodnz/
NZ Surf movies: http://www.damonmeade.com
Jarred at G Land
Key Points
Jarred Hancox didn't start getting coaching and focused training until his 20s, which is considered late for most surfers, but he still managed to win national titles and get featured on magazine covers.
Jarred emphasized the importance of consistency in surfing, proper diet, mobility work, video analysis, and getting coaching to improve technique.
Jarred discussed the benefits of positive self-talk and breathing techniques to stay focused during competitions.
Surfing trips to powerful waves like in Indonesia helped Jarred gain confidence and improve his surfing in all conditions.
Jarred highlighted the importance of not sacrificing surfing for the pursuit of money and keeping a balance between work and surfing passion.
Jarred advised listeners to keep things simple in life and prioritize surfing if it's their true passion.
Jarred mentioned his favorite surfers, including Mick Fanning, Matt Wilkinson, and the Brazilian goofy footers.
Jarred's favorite surfboard model is the Wunder Elite, and he has made surf movies called 'Taranaki Terror 1, 2, and 3' featuring himself and his friends surfing.
Outline
Jarred Hancox's Surfing Journey
Jarred Hancox is a sponsored surfer from New Zealand who won national titles in the over-28 and over-35 divisions in 2010, 2011, and 2016.
Numerous competitions have been won by Jarred in their local area of Taranaki.
Jarred's surfing journey is notable because they didn't focus intensively on improving their surfing until their 20s, which is considered late by many.
Significant elevation of one's surfing abilities is possible even when starting focused training later in life, as demonstrated by Jarred.
Through dedicated effort and training, Jarred went from being a good local surfer in their early 20s to winning national titles and getting magazine cover shots in their 30s.
Consistency in Surfing Practice
Consistency in surfing practice is crucial for maintaining and improving skills.
Regular surfing sessions are important, as long periods out of the water can lead to regression in surfing ability.
Diet and Hydration
Diet plays a significant role in surfing performance, with gradual improvements leading to an organic approach.
A balanced diet with adequate carbohydrates provides necessary energy for surfing's high calorie-burning nature.
Proper hydration is critical, especially during competitions, with nutrition and hydration levels needing to be dialed in for contest days.
Coaching and Video Analysis
Coaching was a key factor in improvement, with several coaches like Martin Dunn, Dave Davidson, and Gary Cruickshank contributing.
Coaching helped with wave selection, wave usage, and determining the best maneuvers for different wave sections.
Video analysis of one's surfing is an effective tool for identifying areas for enhancement.
Strength Training and Mobility Work
Strength training on land complements in-water practice and helps improve overall surfing performance.
Mobility work is crucial for maintaining joint health and preventing injuries, using tools like foam rollers, golf balls, and lacrosse balls.
Specific areas targeted include hip flexors, shoulders, knees, and ankles.
Yoga and Warm-Up Routines
Yoga was beneficial, particularly in their early 20s, balancing energy flow and promoting calmness.
Targeted mobility work has become more of a focus now, though yoga is still valued.
Warm-up routines before surfing are essential, especially in cold conditions, involving exercises like split squats and shoulder warm-ups.
Paddling Technique and Mental Strategies
Proper paddling technique is important to prevent wear on joints, particularly shoulders, avoiding early injuries.
Positive self-talk during competitions helps maintain focus and confidence, using mental strategies to stay motivated and perform best during heats.
Breathing exercises help manage excitement and prevent poor decision-making during competitive heats.
Surfing Trips and Challenging Conditions
Surfing trips to locations with powerful waves, like Indonesia, significantly improve surfing skills.
Experiencing faster, more powerful waves helps surfers adapt and improve their skills at home breaks.
Challenging oneself in bigger, more powerful waves leads to increased confidence and faster reaction times in all conditions.
Practicing in small, soft waves enhances overall surfing ability by improving attention to detail and wave reading skills.
Balancing Life and Surfing
Maintaining a balance between surfing passion and other life aspects is advocated, suggesting not becoming overly consumed by career pursuits at the expense of surfing time.
Having a non-surfing hobby or job provides a healthy break and prevents burnout from surfing.
Simplifying life and avoiding unnecessary financial burdens allows more time for surfing.
Daily Practice and Aging
Consistent, daily practice in areas needing improvement, even for short periods, yields significant benefits over time.
Maintaining surfing ability as one ages is considered a form of progression in itself.
Incorporating beneficial activities, like mobility work, into daily routines, even while engaging in leisure activities like watching TV, is suggested.
Transcription
And because you're more confident, I think your reaction time for takeoffs and things improves as well.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to surf better. Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast.
Michael Frampton
Today's guest is Jarred Hancox. Jarred is a sponsored surfer from New Zealand. In 2010 and 2011, he was New Zealand's national champ in the over 28 division. And in 2016, this year, he was the national champ in the over 35s division. Jarred's also won a bunch of competitions within his local area, Taranaki in New Zealand. And basically, Jarred ripps. Jarred, I've known for quite a long time. And the reason I wanted to interview Jarred was because back when I first met him in his early 20s, he was one of the better surfers around. Back then, if you had asked me, "Oh, well, do you think Jarred will win a New Zealand title or get a cover on a magazine or anything like that?" I would have said no. And he proved me wrong and a lot of his peers wrong, I think. And you see a lot of groms at around the age of 10 start to really focus on their surfing, and they get coaching done, and they start doing training, and they really start doing surf trips. But Jarred didn't really do that until he was in his 20s. I think now most people would say, you know, that's too late. And I think that's what's really inspirational about Jarred is, you know, he proved to us that it's not too late to go on that journey of really, you know, breaking down your surfing, getting coaching done, things like that. So that's what we sort of—that's how we start the conversation, actually. I hope you enjoy. So you didn't win a national title until you were over 28?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, that's right. And I was in that division. I think the first—no, the second time I won an over 28 title, that year I also got my best ever result in the Opens where I got to the semi-finals of the Opens.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And how old were you, 28 years old then?
Jarred Hancox
No, I think I was about 30.
Michael Frampton
Okay.
Jarred Hancox
Yep, or 30 or 31.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, because I remember when I first, you know, saw you surf, you would have been in your early 20s, I guess.
Jarred Hancox
That's right.
Michael Frampton
And, you know, you were definitely one of the better surfers around Taranaki, but at the same time, you probably weren't quite good enough to be national champ or to have the cover shot on a surfing magazine. And then now in your 30s, that's two things you've achieved. So what I want to know is what changed? What did you do through your mid to late 20s that helped you to become—you know, helped your surfing to go to the next level where you were worthy of a national title, obviously, and a cover shot on New Zealand Surfing Magazine? What did you do?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, that's a good question, I suppose. How do you get from taking another level, going into your 30s, where I see a lot of guys and friends go backwards a level from that one decade to the next? I guess just consistency. And I was talking to a guy yesterday who's 67, and he's still surfing on a very regular basis. And he said for him—and this is probably a bit of insight for us all—he said for him, he's found that you've just got to keep doing it. And the more you make excuses, the more you will keep out of the water, and you'll find it easier to keep out of the water. But as soon as you start spending long periods of time out of the water, you're gonna—your surfing goes backwards. Obviously, when you're in your 60s, surfing's not gonna necessarily be amazing. But obviously, in your 20s, 30s and 40s, possibly your 50s, you can still surf at a really high-performance level if you maintain. And I think it's just that consistency. But then not just that, because when you're surfing consistently, it's such a high demand on the body. So you've got to have your diet good, you've got to have your body in a neutral sort of state, which requires yoga and—well, probably more precisely, what I thought these days is mobility work, whether you're using a hard ball or something to smash apart, gripping your muscles, and good sleep. What we've talked about before, Mike, is where we can video ourselves and analyze our technique, get a bit of coaching and a bit of strength training on land. Yeah, and just trying to maintain at least that level that you're at in your 20s, and with the goal of only improving that level.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so one of the things you did was change your diet.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, I think once I got—I don't know when that happened—I think right through my 20s and even into my 30s, I have slowly tried to make my diet better and better to the point of—I think in the last one and a half years, I've been—I've gone more organic. And I don't actually—I don't try and go crazy on the protein or anything. I just try and do what works for me, which is just a medium amount of protein and just plenty of carbs and fats. I think lots of carbs is really important for surfing because you're just burning so many calories. And I find if I just try and go on a real high-protein diet, I just run out of that fast sort of tick, tick, tick, tick energy. So yeah, just a good healthy balanced diet that works for you. I mean, another guy might be different to me. He might find that he needs more protein. I've got friends that have hardly any carbs and they go full on with the protein and they do a lot of gym and surfing. I noticed they're not really fast in the surf. They go more for the gain.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. I guess the key concept is that you've got to have the mindset of you want to improve your diet. Now, obviously that's going to take a little bit of experimentation. You gotta try a few diets and see how you feel on them, try different foods and see how you feel on them. And that's what you've done. And you've seen—you've accounted that to some of your results in your surfing, which is—you can't deny that. And you also mentioned coaching. Is there any particular coach that you used?
Jarred Hancox
I've actually done quite a few coaches. I just want to touch back on that food subject quickly. I think it's really important to have dialed in what works for you on the contest day and through—you might be at the nationals for a week, so you've got to be really dialed in before the heat and after the heat. And hydration—knowing the levels of hydration you need is actually extremely critical. It's very underrated, the hydration.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. So do you find that you eat a lot less on competition day?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. I try not to eat anything too heavy. And if I do, it's probably going to be after I've finished surfing for the day. So pretty much just try and keep eating. But I don't eat anything extreme through the day. It's a fairly light but wholesome breakfast, cereals and stuff, and then maybe some banana sandwiches through the day or such and fruit. So back to coaching again. I've had a few coaches in the past. I think the first ever coach was the guy you interviewed on another podcast, Martin Dunn. So he was my foundation coach, so to speak. I've had coaching from him from the age of 21 all the way to my late 20s, I think. I had on and off sessions with him. Sometimes I was at his home in Old Bar in Australia, or a couple of times he actually came to Taranaki. So I got the benefit of getting coached at my home breaks as well as away in Australia. But getting coached on your home breaks is pretty awesome because that's where you're practicing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And what are some key changes you made through the coaching sessions?
Jarred Hancox
For Martin's original stuff, it was the wave selection, wave usage, where you're trying to surf the wave and what you're trying to do with your first turn and that sort of stuff. I wasn't really doing anything spectacular from his first lot of coaching. I was just trying to apply all the theory. Then, of course, once you get more confident with how you're doing things, you start applying your speed and power to it. And that's when you can start doing your bigger turns. And I also got coaching from Dave Davidson on the Gold Coast. He's done a little bit of coaching with me. He was a former World Tour surfer.
Michael Frampton
Dave, oh, yeah.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. A bit of coaching at G-Land from him. And also I stayed with him on the Gold Coast at Rainbow Bay, and we did a bit of stuff at Snapper Rocks. And also Gary Cruickshank. He's an Aussie surf coach that was with the High Performance Center for a number of years, especially in its earlier years. He used to actually come over to Taranaki every year and do coaching with a squad of us surfers around here.
Michael Frampton
So if we go back to when you first started getting coaching done, it was all about wave selection and the right choice of maneuver for the particular part and shape of the wave. And that's really—did that sort of really help to develop your rhythm in surfing?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, for sure. I mean, if you want to be good at contest surfing and just look good in general when you're out free surfing, you know, foremost is it's like a painter needs a good canvas to make his painting look good. So you really need to be selecting waves. Well, here I am giving a surf coaching spiel, but yeah, you want to get a good wave to make your turns look good. And then just the sort of lines you draw on the wave and what maneuvers you're trying to do with what sections. That's really, really foundational stuff. And then if that's your foundation, you can really build up a great foundation and just start to really build your surfing. And because I set that up from my early twenties, which is quite late—most grommets are doing it now from the age of 10 or such—but either way, I still set it up in the early twenties. So for the rest of my life since then, the last 15 years, that's been my foundation.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Was it a frustrating process?
Jarred Hancox
A frustrating what, sorry?
Michael Frampton
Was it a process like changing the way you approach surfing?
Jarred Hancox
Not at all, because I was doing all this stuff anyway, but I didn't have any guidance. So with guidance, I suddenly had direction, and I actually felt it actually pushed me and made me feel really good about going surfing because I felt like I had something to aim for.
Michael Frampton
Hmm.
Jarred Hancox
Hmm. I've always loved getting coaching and getting video footage and going over it. It's awesome.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And what was your thing to aim for? What motivates you to get better?
Jarred Hancox
I don't know, to be honest. I guess I'm quite competitive, so I really want to get good results when I go in contests, and I really like to, I guess, put on a show, so to speak. So I go for a surf, and I want to surf. And I heard you talking about this with Nat Granger—you go out and surf, you want to surf your best because it makes you feel good. So pretty simple drivers there, Mike, I think—just wanting to surf good, wanting to put on a show, wanting people to be, "Oh wow, that was good surfing, man." You might have done thousands of hours of hard work for that moment, but just to be able to go out and just surf good, that's just the best feeling ever, I think.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So thousands of hours of work behind it.
Jarred Hancox
I guess so, yeah.
Michael Frampton
That's a key concept. I think a lot of people just don't realize how much work that goes on behind the scenes for a lot of these good surfers, you know. So many hours spent getting coaching done and footage and, you know, playing with diet and training and things, so.
Jarred Hancox
What do they say, 10,000 hours to become an expert?
Michael Frampton
That's the one. That's the one. And then with surfing, it takes even longer because, you know, as you know, you don't spend the whole time in the water actually surfing waves.
Jarred Hancox
That's right, yeah, for sure. So you're actually spending a lot of time getting good at paddling.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. That's a big—I'll tell you, that's another big thing for surfing and longevity and getting better as you're getting older is just having good technique with your paddling and even the way you're doing some of your power turns and that. Because if something's a little bit out, you're actually going to wear down the life of the joints considerably. For example, slouched shoulders—you're going to start wearing out the joint really quick, and then you're going to have a bung shoulder by the time you're 40 or 30 or, you know, people are doing injuries at a young age in surfing. And it's really important to keep all those joints supple and free.
Michael Frampton
Yes, yeah, definitely. And you actually did an interview with Rob Case, which I'll put a link to in the show notes for those listening, about paddling technique and how important it is and things. But you mentioned one of those things that you do is yoga to help that.
Jarred Hancox
I started doing yoga. I got a yoga book for my 22nd birthday, and that was about the time I started yoga, and that was really beneficial. These days, I find yoga—the most beneficial part of yoga is just getting your energy flow balance and getting yourself calm in an otherwise hectic world that, you know, the Western rat race, so to speak. And I don't actually put as much emphasis into the stretching out of one's self. I actually focus more now on specific areas that need mobility work. For example, my hip flexors or my shoulders or my knee or my ankle. So I'm doing all sorts of stuff now that's actually—I don't know if you heard of Kelly Starrett, but I've been doing a fair amount of mobility work that he teaches. Wrapping your ankle up in what they call a voodoo band, and you're almost cutting off your circulation and then doing a bunch of movements for a minute or two, then releasing it. Just random stuff like that. Like I said earlier, also using a foam roller, using golf balls, tennis balls, lacrosse balls—all sorts of stuff just to smash apart stuff that needs smashing apart and getting the joint to be able to sit in a nice neutral position.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, kellystarrettmobilitywod.com. Definitely an awesome resource. He's got a YouTube channel, heaps of free stuff. So yeah, I encourage anyone to check that out for sure. I guess, yeah, as we get older, those niggles start to start to creep up on us. But as you said, it's pretty easy. There's only a little bit of work you need to do—a bit of yoga, a bit of mobility stuff to keep on top of it—and you can just keep surfing. Like you said, at a high level through your 30s, 40s and definitely your 50s.
Jarred Hancox
I'll tell you what, I've had periods—like a couple of, probably a month ago—I was doing so much surfing, one period that my hip, something in my hip, went so sore and stiff, I swear to God, it felt like I was going to need a hip operation. I just thought, right, I've just overdone it. I've overdone my hip, all these top turns and rears and bottom turns, and I was limping and everything. And the last couple of weeks, just from changing a bit of my mobility work, it's 100%. And I've just surfed nine days straight in all sorts of conditions, and including competing in a contest on one day, and I feel great. So it's just—their mobility work is so crucial.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So when do you do it typically?
Jarred Hancox
Actually, that's just reminding me of another crucial thing. But yeah, mobility work—generally, I'll try and do it before bed because you're going to bed and, in theory, you've relaxed out stuff, you've done stuff that's equivalent to a massage perhaps, and you go to sleep, your body repairs in a much better state. But I do certain mobility things before I surf as well. I make sure I'm nice and the muscles are fired up, but that's sort of more coming back to warm-up. And that's actually something I forgot to mention. And I can't say it's important enough that warming up before a surf is so crucial. And it's cold here in Taranaki, and it's been like single digits in the morning and pumping surf—single digit—you imagine you get down to the carpark, you've got to get in a damp wetsuit, damp booties, and paddle out. And if you're already cold and you're adding to that cold, you're going out and you're trying to surf good on a wave, it's just an injury waiting to happen, in my opinion. So I'll spend about—I don't mind spending 20 minutes, at least 10 minutes at home in the warmth—a bit of exercise, doing some split squats and a few shoulder warm-ups and just a few basic things, a bit of Swiss ball warm-ups and yeah, just really get all those muscles fired up. Even a hot shower before you do all that, just to totally warm you up.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, it does get cold in New Zealand. So do you have any other pre-surf rituals?
Jarred Hancox
Just make sure you're not too dehydrated, otherwise you're going to be extra dehydrated after a surf. But no, basically just doing warm-ups. Doing warm-ups on the beach is cool, especially sandbars, because you can watch what the beach is doing and where the sandbars are and how they're breaking. You might see two or three sets in the time you're doing a warm-up on the beach. So I reckon just warm-ups, mate. And yeah, just warm-ups is the biggest key for pre-surf.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And in competition surfing, do you have anything that you think about or focus on—your breathing maybe—while you're waiting in between sets?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, breathing can definitely help because you can get overexcited in a heat and you can make bad decisions as a result of that overexcitement. So sometimes you just need to slow everything down and take a few deep breaths. I also use a bit of positive self-talk—something Martin Dunn touched on with me in the early days—and that was, you know, you get a wave and you mentally talk to yourself. You're like, "Right, I've just got one good wave. I need to go out and get a backup." Then you get your backup, then you're like, "Right, I need to go out and get a wave at least as good as that backup." And you can say other little things to yourself too. You can say, "Oh hey, that was a really good wave. I was really happy with how I smashed that wave," or just anything that gets you feeling good about your performance. Because ultimately, you're the only one that can back yourself and mentally drive yourself to perform your best. So you really need that. You can't have any doubt about your ability.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I guess it also keeps your mind focused on surfing and not other stuff as well.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And depending on what event you're at—like I know, you know, some guys are going to QS's where the first heat they're surfing in is like a full-blown final. You know, there's so many good surfers that there's no easy heats these days on the QS, I'd imagine. But for me, you know, I've got a local club comp event, and I suppose there's a lot of guys that just do club comps. And you might have to surf three or four heats in the day, maybe five. So it becomes a day of endurance. So you have to be clever about those first few heats so you're not peaking too early. And that's where, you know, you've got to be like, "Right, okay, who's in my first heat?" "Okay, I don't have anyone too crazy in these first heats," because the draw's spread out. So you don't have to go 100% in the first heat. And I think Kelly Slater touches on that in his book Pipe Dreams he wrote many years ago. He would just do enough to get through the heat.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah.
Jarred Hancox
Pacing yourself. And that's the thing—I'll tell you what's been really difficult in New Zealand, and Australia, I'm sure—when you go to the Nationals, you've normally got a week-long campaign there if you're probably going to get from your first heat to the final. So you've got to make sacrifices, you've got to get a good night's sleep every night, you can't go freesurfing too much. You know, I might just go for one quick freesurf and then have my heat, rest for the rest of the day, because you know, you might have a heat almost every day, especially if you're doing two or three divisions.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so what else has—what about dry land training? Apart from yoga, have you got any other sort of training regimes that you do that have helped you progress?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, for sure. And like I said, I have—I don't do anywhere near as much full-blown stretch-outs like I used to. I used to go hard out with the stretching, but I have talked to yogis and stuff, and they've said, you don't want to try and get past a certain point of flexibility, because then you start going into the joints more, and that's when your joints can become quite a little bit loose, and you've got more chance of dislocating joints. So really, yoga for me is just—it's just maintenance yoga. Just keep me at a certain level of flexibility. So yeah, strength training, speed training is probably the other two big things for me.
Michael Frampton
What do you mean by speed training?
Jarred Hancox
Not so much cardio. I don't do much cardio, to be honest, because I surf so much, and I'm a believer that surfing—when you're surfing high performance and you're really going for it—it's an intensely cardiovascular sport. And speed training for me is maybe just a bit of skipping, and I don't really do much more than skipping, to be honest, for speed training. But I find that gets my fast twitch really good when I'm out on the wave. It gives me a really nice rhythm. Strength training—foundationally, I like to do a little bit of the core sort of bench press, but not too much bench press. Squats, deadlifts—I've only started doing these three in the last three years. I don't do them a lot, admittedly, but I have found I've had a great effect in terms of giving me a stronger back, stronger knees—because the muscles around my knees are stronger—and putting my shoulders into a good position from concentrating on a really good bench press technique. And then there's all sorts of other things. Sometimes I do bodyweight stuff with those TRX straps that dangle down, and you've got the handles on them. You can do a whole lot of stuff with them. Swiss ball—stuff with your Swiss ball—it's always good, yeah.
Michael Frampton
All right, so yoga for balancing the body and keeping mobile. You've got Kelly Starrett, some of his stuff for your mobility. A bit of—let's call it powerlifting—squat, bench press, deadlift. A bit of bodyweight strength training. A bit of speed work, as in skipping. It sounds like a pretty well-rounded surf training program. I might add to that as well, because Jarred's quite flexible and mobile, which is quite common with a lot of surfers—being almost hypermobile—so definitely reiterate what you said about not pushing it too far in yoga.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's just about that balance. You've got to remember that you're doing all this stuff on land for surfing. You're not doing all this stuff on land to be a yogi, or be a powerlifter, or be a one-hour skipper. I just sort of do everything in moderation. When I powerlift, my gym friends that go to the gym all the time, they laugh at me. They go, "Oh, what do you call that sort of weight?" But I don't care. I'm not powerlifting to be a powerlifter. I'm powerlifting just to keep the movement and just to keep the muscles at a nice tone. I'm not trying to grow massive muscles. Yeah, so just not overdoing it. I think that's the biggest key in surf training is just, yeah, don't go too crazy.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah, you're right.
Jarred Hancox
Go crazy on the wave by all means. That's why you've done all your land training. But if you've been going crazy on land, you're probably going to sort of—if you haven't injured yourself already—you know, you might find yourself more susceptible to becoming injured because you've stressed certain joints and muscles out to the max.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Has there ever been a stage in your life where your surfing has gone backwards?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, yep, I would say so. Yeah, I remember when I first started working at a non-surfing job—it was only about three or four years ago—I started working in real estate. So I'm a real estate agent now, and that offers great flexibility. In terms of your hours and when you can and can't surf, that's great. But for sure, the first six months of doing that, I actually—I actually sort of lost interest in surfing a bit. I was quite focused on just the work side of things. And for the first time in my life, first time since a kid, I got chubby. I put on over 10% of my normal body weight. So I went from—I'm lightweight, I'm normally 60 kilos—I went up to about 68. I was struggling to catch waves, boards weren't going as good, and I just didn't look in great shape. And so I went and ordered three new surfboards that had more volume, and that got me quite amped. I was having more fun again, and I quickly lost the weight and sort of never looked back, you know. I just sort of kept—I just realised then, I was like, man, even if I'm not enjoying my surfing, I've just got to do it at least a few times a week just to maintain, because okay, I might be stale on my surfing right now, but it always comes back in waves, you know. So surfing to me is not always an amazing feeling because I've been doing it for so long, but you can't avoid those little waves of negativity. But in saying that, lately, I feel like the last year I've changed board sponsors, so I've got different boards. I'm really amped on my surfboards. So I'll be… I've got a new wetsuit sponsor, I'm feeling good in a new wetsuit, and I'm just amped, man. I've been surfing a lot more, eh? And I've got my mobility dialed in, so I'm not getting so sore.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So, if we go back to that time when your surfing went downhill, obviously you were focused on other things at the time, but did that—when you noticed that you weren't surfing as well, you're a little bit heavier—is that something that motivated you to start surfing at an even higher level?
Jarred Hancox
No, no, funnily enough, I hadn't sort of been at that weight for so long, I was just—forever—so I was like, kind of like, oh, this is kind of cool for a change. Or, as strange as that sounds, I was like, for once I'm not like a skinny stick, and I was like, oh, that's kind of cool. But yeah, I don't think I—I don't know, it was a phase there where I just lost interest in how well I was performing in the surf. Why? I don't know, maybe I needed to—maybe I was stale on the surfboards I was riding, maybe I needed to change shapers, or—yeah, I don't know, I felt like I'd—I felt like I'd peaked, I felt like I couldn't surf any better.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Yeah. So you hit a plateau.
Jarred Hancox
I reckon I did. I'd spent so much time in Indonesia, I'd been barreled as much as any human could probably want to be barreled, and yeah, I felt like I peaked.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so what do you think got you past that plateau?
Jarred Hancox
Changing—changing surfboard shapers. Just something fresh, something new. As it turned out, my surfing has actually improved as a result.
Michael Frampton
So equipment, yeah. So—but what motivated you? What motivated you to seek out different equipment?
Jarred Hancox
Just keeping an open mind, I think, right? The shaper from Australia—he's Wondershapes—and he's actually Gavin Upson. He's originally from one of the towns in Taranaki called Waitara, and so he's actually got a local connection. And he actually came here two years in a row doing demo days where he had some boards you could try. And I just—I was just keeping an open mind. I didn't want to jump ship or anything from my local shaper, and I just tried his boards both years, and in the end, I was just like, oh, hang on, I'm actually—this feels really good. I kept trying them, and yeah, I don't know, man, I just couldn't deny it. They felt really good, and I wanted to start working with him. So I said to him, "Hey, if you're keen for me to be on your team, I'll be keen to be on your team," and he said yeah. And so we've developed a really good relationship there. And he's one of those shapers that really takes you seriously, and really thinks it out, and analyzes, and watches you surf, and really tries to incorporate into your shapes what he thinks will be best for you directly—not just the general surfer.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, okay, so getting custom surfboards has helped you to get over that plateau?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, definitely. Getting custom surfboards off a shaper that just relates well with me. So I think it's just important to be able to find that shape—a surfer-shaper relationship can make a huge difference.
Michael Frampton
Okay, and let's give—what's his website? Let's give him a shoutout.
Jarred Hancox
Wondershapes. So it's like the number one—
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
It's hyphen D-A.
Michael Frampton
Okay, cool.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, and you'll probably find the website just doing that.
Michael Frampton
Yep, cool. Wondershapes. And I'll put a link to his website on the show notes anyway for those that want to look that up, but okay, awesome.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, well, he used to be the head ghost shaper at PHD, so he was actually doing the shapes for some of the top surfers in the world. And he's got a lot of experience, and it feels like that under your feet, so yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and it's interesting that he actually went out and made the effort to watch you surf. And so he's obviously got a little bit of coaching surf technique background as well.
Jarred Hancox
No, he doesn't, but the way he went up—because I went to the Gold Coast recently to work with him with my latest quiver—he watched me at D-Bar. And it was funny because he was watching me, and I thought, oh, he'll just watch the whole surf. And he waves me in after like 30 minutes. I thought, oh, that's weird. So I walk in and he goes, "I want to see you go and do this, and do that, and do this or this, and this or that," and I'm like, okay. And it actually felt like I was getting a coaching session. So I went out and I was doing what he said, and he said—I came back in again—he goes, "Cool, okay, yep, I can see you. We'll try—" and then he goes, "And I can see that I need to do this to your board, and that to your boards, and these changes to allow you to do what I want to see you doing on the wave." So without him hardly realizing it, people have told him he could easily be a surf coach.
Michael Frampton
Okay, okay, so he's watching the way you surf from the perspective of, how do I shape a board so that you can actually progress your surfing, not just enjoy it?
Jarred Hancox
Exactly. Which for me is like the ultimate combo—someone who can watch you on the beach, or at least you can send them some surfing footage, and he can go, "All right, I think this is the kind of board I need to make for him to allow him to surf at a better level." So yeah, for me, that's exciting, and that stokes the passion with surfing.
Michael Frampton
Yep. Okay, surfing in the cold—your wetsuit is pretty important. I think it's—I think the importance of wetsuits, and choosing the right one for the day, and making sure it fits properly, making sure you put it on properly as well.
Jarred Hancox
Oh, yeah, for sure, and you've got to think, you're wearing, say, a full-blown steamer and booties, and that steamer's getting soaked with water, so it just—you carry a lot of extra weight, so that's going to impact on the volume of your board.
Michael Frampton
Yep.
Jarred Hancox
Yep, so around here, you don't—you want to go on the higher side of what volume you think you would have, if you want a little bit more again.
Michael Frampton
And you said you'd changed wetsuit sponsors—can you tell us why?
Jarred Hancox
Well, what I consider to be, you know, one of the best wetsuit companies—I rode Excel wetsuits for a good 10 years, and I loved their suits, they were awesome, they were flexible, I couldn't complain. And, you know, so I’d wear my 4:3 through the winter, and cold days usually have a vest and a hood as well, and booties. And actually, a friend of mine in my city, he started getting in Mapoose—so it's called M-A-P-O-O-S-E, Mapoose wetsuits. And a local girl who's been on the World Tour, Paige Harab, she's actually sponsored by them too. And he said, "Hey, you want to ride these suits? I'll hook you up." I said—I thought about it for about a month, because, you know, I’d loved Excel so long—and I put a bit of research into them, and I thought, actually, they sound pretty cool, I’ll give them a go. Because the wetsuit material is actually—it’s not neoprene, it’s called geoprene. Yeah, they claim—Mapoose claim—that they only let in 5% water max, while neoprene is 35% water plus. Over time, it breaks down.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I’ve got a Mapoose wetsuit in my wetsuit quiver as well, and the first thing you notice—I noticed a couple of things—was one, they’re not quite as stretchy, but they fit better, so they’re more fitted. And yeah, they take on far less water. Like, you can—especially when you rinse it out and lift it up—you just realize how much water your old wetsuit holds. And obviously that’s being held while you, you know, when you stand up. So they're definitely a lot lighter, and just—it’s just a nicer material as well, nice and soft, and—
Jarred Hancox
They're using some sort of—it’s almost like Ironman stuff. Have you actually surfed your Mapoose wetsuit very much? Because at my first handful of surfs, it was a little bit tight, and then it actually became really flexy. And Paige said the same thing. And interestingly enough, I've been wearing a 3mm—just a full 3mm suit—all winter. On the very coldest days, I haven’t needed more than that. Of course, I've got booties on because I get cold feet, and a hood. But I haven’t had to wear a vest or anything as well. You know, it’s actually blown me away. The wind is not getting through that 3mm, it’s not making me cold like, you know, any other wetsuit I used to wear.
Michael Frampton
Nice.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, I think technology is quite something that can get you quite excited when you’re getting new technologies.
Michael Frampton
Oh man, totally agree. You know, it’s the last thing you want to be is either too cold or too hot in the water—you want to be just nice, just right.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, or too heavy. You know, if you’ve got an older wetsuit that’s taken a lot of water, and it’s extra thick because it’s cold—you need a 5mm wetsuit because it’s cold and you need that warmth—but the latest wetsuit, you might get away with a 3mm, and it’s taking on less water, and you’re just so light on the surface. It makes a big difference.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and another thought I had with those wetsuits as well is—have you heard of the principles, you know, whatever you put on your skin, essentially, you're drinking? So, you know, the most extreme example would be, you know, if you rub a bit of cyanide into your skin, you know, it’s going to kill you just as it would if you ate it. Now, obviously, if you're wearing neoprene rubber made from petroleum, you're soaking some of those chemicals in through your skin. But the Mapoose wetsuits—they make them from limestone, which is obviously a less toxic material than neoprene. So there's probably a health aspect that comes into it as well. I haven’t seen them write about it or talk about it, but it’d be interesting to know. If anyone listening knows, please let us know.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, for sure—same with moisturisers. Oh, that's another thing I’ve cut. I don't know if it helps or not, but even my sunblocks—for the most part now—I just use like an organic sort of zinc. And moisturiser—I don’t even buy any moisturisers—I just use coconut oil. If I ever want to flick my hair for a night out, I’ll just use coconut oil. I’ve really tried to eliminate all strange, unknown substances and chemicals as much as possible. Yeah, I’m not a full-blown hippie on it, I still eat normal stuff and eat, you know, get takeaways and that, but I think just doing anything is better than nothing.
Michael Frampton
Oh, I totally agree, man. You know, if you start reading the ingredients in most sunscreens and most shampoos, and it’s like—people don’t realise that if you're rubbing it into your skin, you're consuming it. So when, you know, a zinc oxide-based—just a normal zinc oxide-based sunscreen—actually, I find, works better than any commercial-based sunscreen in the surf, because it kind of sticks and stays on you, right? And it’s far less toxic than those commercial sunscreens.
Jarred Hancox
Some of those ones even smell like petroleum. But zinc’s supposed to be a mineral that’s good for you.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
And your skin is like a big mouth.
Michael Frampton
Yep, that’s right, man. Anything you can do to reduce your overall toxic load is going to help keep your nervous system firing at higher speeds, it’s that simple. You know, that’s why eating organic food is—you know, there’s less pesticides and less herbicides and things in organic foods, so there’s less toxic load on your body. So your nervous system is—and your digestion is—more efficient. But anyway, we digress. What else has helped your surfing go to the next level?
Jarred Hancox
I sort of—I mean, it might sound bad to any sort of, you know, guys listening that are into a heavy laboring job, because obviously, you know, that’s your job, that’s your job. But I have been fortunate enough to—you know, I don’t know about fortunate, I’ve just chosen not to do any jobs that are too labor-intensive. So, you know, I think if I’d been doing heavy laboring for the last 10 years as a job, it would have been pretty hard for the body to withstand all that surfing and training and stuff as well. You’d be loading up your back a lot more. I guess you could do it, but you’d just have to be really conscious of your movements during your job, and keeping the right muscle groups strong. Because I have got friends that are laborers, and they train at the gym all the time, and they surf all the time, and they’re in their 40s, and they’re doing well. And their only injuries and niggles are from when they played professional rugby, and they’ve still got plates in their body and stuff from that—or artificial hips at an early age and stuff. So, you know, I’ve got friends in their 40s, and they really do push the envelope, and they’re in great condition apart from, you know, old injuries.
Michael Frampton
I think maybe what you’re trying to get at is that—and correct me if I’m wrong—but when you go surfing, that time you spend surfing, that's, for you, that is your most focused and intense physical activity, right?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, that’s my most labor-intensive thing in my life—is the surf, for sure.
Michael Frampton
So even when you’re training for surfing, you’re still holding back a little bit, because you know that you’d rather put that extra little bit of effort into a man turn?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. I mean, the amount of times I’ve done my powerlifting and gone to an absolute max in a deadlift or a squat is very rare. Normally I’m doing a bit of a load, but I’m not—very rarely am I ever, like, maxing myself out to an animalistic state. But when I do a carve, when I get a big wall at my local break—like Rocky Point or something—and I want to lay on that rail, I’m just putting a hundred percent, everything into it, putting everything my board can take. And that’s where I get amped, you know. But I mean, for some people, they get the most satisfaction out of putting that hundred percent into the heaviest squat, or the—I don’t know—running the fastest hundred meters they can run, or what have you.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so that—just the way you were talking about putting everything you've got onto the rail of your surfboard—maybe that sounds like that particular moment when you've done an awesome turn. Is that—is it more of those that motivates you to surf better?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, for sure. And a couple of weeks ago I actually rode a couple of my old boards, and I found I couldn't push my turns anywhere near as hard or radical as on my Wonderboards. And I thought, wow, I wonder if this is why I started to get demotivated. I don't know. I mean, because on my Wonders, I'm going out and it feels like I'm at full throttle. You know, I don't really have much of an excuse. It's, you know, it's more the jockey than the horse, because if you've got a board that's really, really good for you, you are the limiting factor. But when your equipment is the limiting factor, well, you're going to reach a plateau that you can't get past.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So, okay. So it might be worth folks listening out there that feel like maybe they want to try some new equipment—go out and maybe get some footage and get a good shaper to look at it and get some custom shapes going and see whether that helps.
Jarred Hancox
I've actually got a couple of Wonderboards for some of my friends, and they actually—and I've showed Gavin footage of them—and they're big guys. They're like 90 kilo plus guys, heavyweight, just full of muscle. And they've always struggled to get good boards, really struggled. And they're always riding quite often those HS Cryptos and stuff. And, you know, they surf fairly well on them, but they got some customs off Gavin and these Wonders. They just—their surfing is just on like another level, you know. They've started going vertical and they never used to go vertical, and starting to do proper bottom turns. And they've even commented that, you know, they're getting less sore body parts from surfing these boards because they're customized to turn properly for them. Get a good board for you and make sure you've got enough volume. I see so many guys that, you know, they're a bit overweight or they're not quite fit enough, and they're riding really thin boards because they're like, "If I lose the weight," or, "Oh, but when I get a good wave." But come on, the reality is, 95% or more of the surfs you're surfing, the waves aren't going to be that great, and you're probably not going to be at your peak, and you're not going to surf your best. So you're better to have, you know, a board that's counteracting for that little bit of unfitness or a little bit of overweight. And at least from there, you can get heaps of waves, you can have fun, you can get fit from surfing heaps and enjoying it. And then you can change boards after that. Don't do it the wrong way around.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. So you mentioned just a little bit earlier that you'd been in Indonesia and got lots of barrels, and you kind of felt a little bit demotivated and burnt out from surfing. And obviously the—you know, getting new boards has helped light the fire again. But do you think it's possible to surf too much?
Jarred Hancox
Oh yeah, for sure. It's like anything in life. And it's hard to believe if you've never done it before—if you've never surfed too much before—but, you know, you can. You can surf too much. Surfing is—it's a great thing, but you can definitely do too much of it. And it's taken a little while to happen, but I don't know why, but I've had this feeling that if I did something that was non-surf related in my life to balance things out, I'd enjoy surfing more. And it slowly happened. I got into real estate, which is not a surfing-related job. And I think just having that balance of being able to go work for a while and focus on something completely different than surfing—even if it's a few hours—it really helps keep the freshness in the surfing.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. You've got to have that work-life-play balance.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. Or it might be a hobby. You might need a hobby. You might work in the surf industry, so it's hard to get away from it. So you probably just need a hobby to break it all up that's not directly related to surfing—whether it is playing golf or, you know, the famous New Zealand surf photographer and world-renowned photographer Corey Scott. Because he's so immersed in surfing, and he loves it—you know, he's an awesome photographer and everything, and he still surfs—but he's very passionate now about trout fishing, because that's his escape from the surfing world. Yeah. And it helps keep him fresh when he's back in the surfing world.
Michael Frampton
Okay. So do you find it just creates more hunger for surfing when you step away from surfing and focus on something else?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, for sure. For sure. But you don't want to step away for too long. Otherwise, you completely forget about it. Your muscles start degenerating, and you don't want to step away from it for a few months, you know, unless you're injured. You only need to step away—sometimes you can just have a week or two off. You know, if you're really, really burnt out on surfing, just have two weeks off. But no, you shouldn't need that long. You should—if you've got the balance right in your life, you should be able to just—and your diet right, and you're having good sleeps, and your boards are good—you'll just be surfing pretty darn consistently because you're feeling good about it and feeling good about yourself.
Michael Frampton
So on your journey towards progressing your surfing, what's some of the biggest obstacles you've faced?
Jarred Hancox
Like through the years?
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Any—the first thing that comes to mind?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, the first thing that comes to mind was challenges faced with, um, in my early 20s. You know, obviously I'd finished school, and then I dropped out of a computers degree I was doing because I just wanted to surf. And of course, most people will find this—you'll meet resistance from family, from even friends, and there'll be a lot of people that'll probably tell you, "You can't do that." You know, older guys that have been in their career for many years—"You can't just go surfing, you have to get into a trade, you have to do this or that." And okay, eventually I had got into the trade of real estate, but I made that surfing thing go crazy all through my 20s. I guess where there's a will, there's a way, you know. And if you want to just thrash it, you want to live the dream—and I never got stale on it through my 20s—and I thrashed the hell out of surfing. So if you want to do it, make it happen. And you'll actually start meeting a lot more supportive people if you stick to your guns, and you'll end up finding these people that'll help guide you and make it happen. And it might not be an easy path, but, you know, you only live once. And when you look back on it and you go, "I did that. I faced a lot of negativity and resistance, but I did it." So obviously you've got to keep realistic to a certain degree, but you've got to try and be resourceful and make things happen.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Did you struggle with small waves much?
Jarred Hancox
Yes and no. I've never been like a superb aerialist. I've had moments where I've sort of fled in the air, but not—not consistently, which is obviously a pretty key component of being a great small-wave surfer, I believe, is your aerial game. So I've never—I've never been a… So, but being 60 kilos, I've actually ended up doing quite well in certain contests against bigger guys. You know, when the waves are half a foot, one foot, one and a half foot, you can get up quite a bit of speed when you're 60 kilos on the right board. But in saying that, being that light, you can have that disadvantage of—if you get the same section as another guy who's 75 kilos, and you do exactly the same turn on exactly the same equipment with the same speed, I can just about guarantee you he's going to throw a beefier spray—the 75 kilo guy. Throwing spray in general is something that is harder for me to do at my weight. So for sure I have to work on having the right equipment, the right timing, having the speed up. And yeah, surfing in Indonesia really helped with my forehand with that—you know, learning how to do fast rail turns.
Michael Frampton
Was going on surf trips quite an important—let's call it a strategy—for getting better? Like, put it this way, if you had just stayed at home and just surfed your home breaks all the time, do you think you would be as good as you are now?
Jarred Hancox
No, I would have just got too stale, I reckon, just surfing day in, day out and the same waves. No, you have to go, you have to travel, you have to surf different waves. Even if it's just a quick one- or two-week break, you need it. You know, I talked about doing something that's non-surfing related, but you can keep your surfing fresh just by doing surfing stuff like surfing different waves, you know, surfing warmer waters or colder waters or whatever floats your boat. But yeah, traveling, being in different cultures and environments, it's definitely part of that key of variety.
Michael Frampton
When was your first trip?
Jarred Hancox
Ah, first trip—well, probably the first trip I'd really count overseas for, you know, apart from Australia. I don't really—almost—Australia is a funny one, it's not too much different to New Zealand in some senses, some of the culture.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, when was your first trip to Indo?
Jarred Hancox
That was at the age of 23. So I started going every year after that, and I've racked up at least two years straight—well, if you count up all the days, I've racked up at least two years in G-Land alone. I used to work there as a surf guide for a while as well, so that really helped with surfing bigger waves.
Michael Frampton
So was G-Land the first spot you went to?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, Bali and G-Land was the first.
Michael Frampton
What's the first thing you noticed about your first—do you remember your first surf in Indonesia?
Jarred Hancox
Gosh, I can't remember where I first surfed, if it was Uluwatu or one of the beaches, but I just remember how, you know, perfect the waves were and how they raced down the reef and, you know, really draw off the reef quite nice. And then when I got in some bigger, hollower waves, I ended up getting inside barrels so cylindrical that I'd never really experienced that in Taranaki. I only had little barrels here. You know, over there you end up in barrels that you can just stand up in, and that's not common for a lot of places. Experience in the barrel was probably, you know, the major thing in Indonesia. And I ended up doing a few trips to Hawaii in my mid to late 20s, and that's where I ended up experiencing just waves of just unlimited size. You know, that's just crazy over there—the size and the rawness and the randomness and the rogueness. That was a whole other kettle of fish again.
Michael Frampton
How long was your first trip to Hawaii?
Jarred Hancox
Two months.
Michael Frampton
Two months, wow.
Jarred Hancox
Stayed with a family who lived there, and they took me to a lot of surfing spots that a lot of tourists probably wouldn't actually know about otherwise. You know, a lot of semi-secret spots, and I got to meet a lot more locals than I would have if I was just, you know, a traveling tourist staying down there on the North Shore.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and what's the first thing you noticed when you came back?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, one thing I noticed actually—I came back from a long stint in G-Land, I come back to Taranaki, and I remember doing out my local Rocky Point wave and I was thinking how bizarre. These waves that used to seem so tall to me and so kind of solid, they just seemed so small and slow and less tall than what I'd been used to in G-Land and Hawaii, of course. Yeah, they're just different. G-Land and Hawaii, the waves just really stand up really tall and they have a lot of girth and they move really fast and you need bigger boards. As soon as you get back over here, you can be out in some pretty decent waves, but you don't need much of a board on you. You can get away with some fairly short boards here, even though you're surfing sometimes double overhead and stuff. But you go to double overhead G-Land, you're going to struggle on your shortboard. It's just—even if you catch the wave for a start, which is quite hard to do on a shortboard—you almost feel real skittery and like you don't have enough rail.
Michael Frampton
Yes, I mean you had the chance—obviously you spent so much time over there—to kind of get used to those big, fast-moving swells that you experienced in Indonesia and Hawaii. Do you think that kind of made you or allowed you to surf back home with more rhythm and more speed?
Jarred Hancox
Not necessarily more rhythm and speed, but allowed me to surf with more courage perhaps and attack the wave a bit harder and, yeah, less fear. I've got a lot less fear now. You know, I'll turn up at my local break and it'll be maxing out—like, you know, like freaks most people out. You know, a lot of local guys don't want a bar of it, and I'm like, well, it's actually—if I get one of those tips on the head or, you know, get caught in the bowl or whatever, it's actually fairly intense and I'm going to still need to relax, but it's not going to be like getting caught out by an eight-foot set at G-Land or a ten-foot set at Sunset. It's just not in the same league. And because you're more confident, I think your reaction time for take-offs and things improves as well. I think a lot of my take-offs have improved in terms of late sort of out-of-the-lip take-offs or committing to a really steep big wave. You've already got it pre-programmed into yourself. So when you do something enough, it becomes more of a routine. And then you get out at your home break on one of those special—on your baseline—on a special day where you don't get these special days very often when they're really big, macking and clean, and you're already pre-programmed. You've got that pre-programmed routine to call upon just to charge that big drop or bottom turn off the bottom on a triple overhead wave and hook it in the pocket. It's not something you're trying to learn—you've already learned it. So by going and traveling to these surf meccas like G-Land and Hawaii, you just get to be a lot more comfortable in a lot of situations. You learn to relax when you are caught in a scary moment with a monster set landing on your head—your 15-foot set cleaning out the bay at G-Land or something. Yeah, it's just like, okay, I've been there, I've done that. And no matter where you go in the world, you can recall on that. Like when I went to Hawaii, I got caught out by some massive sets at semi-secret outer reef breaks and 20-foot sets of that. But I just called upon that G-Land experience. Okay, I've had big hold-downs at G-Land. I just stayed really relaxed. I just went with it. I didn't fight the turbulence underwater. And eventually it calms down and then I swim up to the top. So yeah, you've got something to call upon in the memory banks.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Okay. That sounds like that experience was pretty essential.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For me, I always have to work my way up. So you can't probably get a 15- to 20-foot set on the head and call upon getting a four-foot set on the head for your experience. It's just not the same. But if you can call upon, "Okay, I've had a 10- to 12-foot set on the head," you don't want to throw yourself too much into the deep end for safety reasons.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. You want to be smart about it and incrementally progress, which I'm sure was what you were doing on your first trip to G-Land, right? You would have took a few off the shoulder first and maybe missed the first 8- to 10-foot day and watched it, and then went out when it was six-foot, and then, you know, you build up to that, right? You've got to be smart about it.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. You slowly just stretch that comfort line, don't you? You just give it a push every time. Yeah. Yeah. Until you get to the point where, okay, I'm not going out on that. And I had that in Hawaii once. Waimea Bay was what they call 20 to 25 feet, borderline closeout on the odd set. And I'd been surfing it up to 20-foot, which is really big in their standards. But when you've got 20 to 25 feet on most of the sets, right, that's just another level. And I just drew the line right there and said, "You know what, you can drown on that a lot easier." So I just stopped there.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
I think I found my limit. But then if I was in Hawaii more often, perhaps I'd do it eventually. But yeah, everyone has a limit.
Michael Frampton
You've got to test those limits, right? You really do to progress. You've got to face those fears and obviously be smart about it. But at the end of the day, you've got to have a crack. And on that note of surfing Indo—I mean, I remember my first trip to Indo was the first time I surfed Indonesia—it was about four- to five-foot Uluwatu. And I just remember taking off on my first wave and it felt like I was surfing at three times the speed of what I'd ever surfed in my life. And I remember the first couple of days there, I was just going, what? I just hadn't experienced, you know, a wave that just races down the line that fast with that much energy behind it. And then after a couple of weeks of surfing there, I kind of got used to it and was surfing well. But the biggest thing I noticed was when I came back here to my home break, it's just—every condition since that first trip felt so much easier. Because where I usually surf never gets—you don't get 18, 20-second period swells here, you know what I mean? But when you learn how to surf those big, powerful ground swells, then I just found that I was so much more relaxed in all situations. And like you said, you know, when you're confident and you're relaxed, you react faster, you're more in rhythm. So yeah, I think surf trips are hugely important—hugely important—for improving your surfing.
Jarred Hancox
That's a good point you touched on. Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, you're right, you surf a place like Uluwatu and you're just getting so much speed off the bottom and you're doing your turn, you get on the rail—it's just everything's happening so fast. And yeah, you're right, you come back home and you end up surfing softer swells and softer waves and you're just going, but why can't I do that same turn? And you have to start actually using your body more to try and generate extra speed to get enough speed to actually do a decent turn that's not doing it for you like at Ulu.
Michael Frampton
That's right. You have to surf tighter and more in the pocket on other waves to get that same kind of feeling. But also, you know, when you start expanding your surfing and improving your surfing, it just opens up the door to so many more different types of waves as well.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, no doubt. No doubt.
Michael Frampton
Like what's the most extreme break that you've surfed? Obviously, Waimea is pretty out there. Would that be the most challenging surf you've had out there?
Jarred Hancox
Probably just like a game. For me, it was like a game of chess. I was trying to just play it right. I was trying so hard not to get caught by a set and trying to, you know, I was trying to make sure I wasn't going to blow any drops or anything, because I was just like, what if I broke my leggy or—there's so many what-ifs. So I was just trying to be really careful. But then in the end, once you've got a bit of confidence up, you start actually charging. You do start charging a lot harder once you get used to things. But in terms of extreme waves, it's been some crazy, extreme barrels I've surfed in Indonesia—Scar Reef, and we have one amazing wave at Super Suck, which are both on Sumbawa. And in Padang Padang you get some pretty extreme barrels. And G-Land, of course—there's been times where you've just been in some of the most ridiculous barrels and come out. And it's a funny wave, G-Land. You could surf it for five hours a day for one month straight, and you might just get one wave in that whole month. But it might just be the most stupidest, ridiculous, amazing barrel ever that you'll struggle to get anywhere in the world. G-Land just doesn't serve it up on a plate. You've got to kind of work for it and earn it, so to speak. And it can be hard work, G-Land. But it's there—the potential is there. But you've got to know the reef, you've got to have the right equipment, and you've got to be in the right position. And sometimes there's a little bit of luck, but knowing the certain semi-secret takeoff spots that you can hang out at and wait for the certain rogue wide ones, etc.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Oh man, we've talked about a lot. So let's see if we can give a little summary. So nutrition is important. Tea, sleep, good sleep. Nutrition and lifestyle.
Jarred Hancox
Yep. Yep.
Michael Frampton
Okay. And then obviously a bit of training, but keep the body in check, keep the body strong.
Jarred Hancox
Mobility.
Michael Frampton
Yep. And surf coaching. You've got to get your technique right.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, for sure.
Michael Frampton
Equipment.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Boards. That was a big one. We talked about that a lot.
Jarred Hancox
Critical. Wetsuits. Yep. I reckon, yep, that's a key factor, especially when you're in colder—you know, those who are listening are in colder water. Good wetsuits.
Michael Frampton
Yep. You don't want to get cold. And surf trips—getting into some faster, more powerful waves.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Or you might live in a place where you're always surfing fast, good waves. So if you're trying to take your surfing to the next level, you might need to travel somewhere that you're going to be surfing softer, more hot dog waves.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Tom Carroll—I interviewed him a while back, and he mentioned that when Tom Curren came on the scene, he really had to learn how to surf small waves a lot better. And he actually focused on it solely for a few months, just trying to really find really small, soft waves and learn how to surf them. And he said when he came out of that process, every other aspect of his surfing was better. Because learning how to surf those small waves made him really attentive on the detail of the wave—the little ripples on the wave and trying to find where the power source is. So I agree, both extremes. Surf the biggest wave you can. That's one of my goals. I want to surf the biggest wave of my life every winter—hopefully, for the rest of my life—we'll see. But also I've been trying to surf the smallest wave I can as well.
Jarred Hancox
Okay.
Michael Frampton
Which has been a real challenge. But it's been really fun. I've learned too. There have been so many surfs recently where it's just so small and soft, and no one else is surfing. So you always get the lineup. I find you always get the lineup to yourself when it's like that. Okay. But another thing you mentioned, which I think is really key, is not surfing too much or at least breaking that up with something else—whether that be a non-surfing job you have and really just focusing on that, or, like you said, a hobby, golf or whatever—if surfing is a bigger part of your life.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, for sure.
Michael Frampton
Jarred, is there anything else? We're running out of time, but are there any parting words, anything else you can talk to listeners about?
Jarred Hancox
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
Obviously, if surfing is a big passion of yours, just remember that life will pass us all by. So you really need to try and chase that passion as much as you can. Try not to let the whole rat race devour you. I've got friends, and there's just so much stuff happening in their life. You've got to almost strip things back and go back to the simple things. Don't be too obsessed with buying the biggest, flashiest house you can get with the biggest mortgage, because that just means you're going to have to work more. Don't be obsessed with getting a loan and getting the flashiest car you can get, because that's debt you're going to have to pay off. Keep all that stuff just to what you need, and then that's only going to equal more time to do what you're passionate about, which, if you're listening to this, is probably surfing. Yeah, just try and keep everything as simple as possible and just go surfing.
Michael Frampton
So that period of your life where you were just surfing, surfing, surfing and didn't focus too much on your career obviously caught up on you in some ways, because then you then had to take a small hiatus of surfing and focus on a trade. But do you ever regret that time you spent surfing?
Jarred Hancox
No, not at all. I mean, okay, I haven't acquired certain assets that I may have acquired if I'd worked hard at a job all those years, but I've acquired experiences and I got into the surf now at a level that I'm happy with. Yeah, I guess I let what was most important to me in life rule my life. And it worked.
Michael Frampton
It worked out awesome, and I'm sure that there's many lessons from surfing that you're now applying to real estate.
Jarred Hancox
Oh, for sure, mate. For sure.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's right. I've even incorporated my slogan for real estate: Surf to Snow Realtors, because we've got the surf on one side of the city and the mountain on the other. So I've actually cheekily incorporated a bit of surfing into the real estate. So it's—yeah, and I'm quite involved with my local surf club, and sometimes I get business out of some of the members there just inadvertently. And so there is a bit of a blend there, Mike, as well. Inadvertently, a bit of the surfing's overlapped into the real estate.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess what you kind of touched on and what I've always wanted to sort of talk about a little bit is that if you're a surfer, and surfing is the thing that you want to do most in life, then don't try and... I went through a stage in my life where I thought, oh, you know, surfing—it's just a sport. It's—you know, I don't need it. I almost had this realisation, oh, I'm addicted to surfing. I kind of fobbed surfing off as an addiction. And for those years where I kind of... I was lying to myself, basically. And then when I came back to surfing, I realised, nah, surfing's not... that's not what surfing was for me. It's something that I just... I need to have in my life, and I need to be progressing my surfing. Otherwise, I just... I don't feel good.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, that's right. That's it. You said it. You moved to London and you were telling me earlier you were doing 60-hour weeks in probably one of the worst cities in the world to live in to be a surfer, I guess.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, you were in denial. And it's pretty—it's really cool to see what you're doing now with your podcast and your surf training at the high performance thing in Sydney there. And I'm stoked to hear that you've reconnected with surfing in this way.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, man. It's like—I guess in some ways having that break, you know, brought back a lot of hunger.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Frampton
But, you know, I think that it's not necessary because, like your advice you said before—you know, have a balance, you know. Have a hobby, go and have a round of golf. Try not to think about surfing when you're at work. These little breaks of surfing, you know, daily or weekly, are enough to keep that hunger strong, I think. And, you know, changing your equipment and stuff as well. But, you know, like you said, I just don't think—I think focusing on surfing and focusing on progressing your surfing is something that I don't think anyone will ever, ever regret. I don't think anyone would look back at their life and go, oh, you know, I did too much surfing. I don't think that's something that someone's going to say.
Jarred Hancox
No, and it's quite easy to sacrifice a lot of surf time in the pursuit of the most money possible. You know, for a lot of people, if they get more immersed in a surfing lifestyle or move somewhere, you know, they're not in a big city—they might want to move to a place where there's good surf, but you can't have as good a job, so you get a big pay cut. All those things—it's just a hard decision for people. And I don't know, I guess it's whatever's good for you, but I personally have chosen the road where I've chosen to make less money but just stay connected with surfing my whole life.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah. And then, I mean, one of the things you said earlier was—I asked you when you did your mobility work and you said in the evenings before bed. Now, most people are just watching TV, you know. I think that's a big thing that we've got to realize is that we've kind of got to, in some ways—you know, if you want to get better at surfing, you do have to be a little bit obsessed. Instead of watching TV, get on a mobility ball and work on your mobility or do some specific strength movements or, you know, study some—oh, there's so much, there's so many resources out there to learn more about surfing, you know. And yeah, instead of watching the Kardashians, then, you know, immerse yourself.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, if we're being a little less harsh here, Mike, we can say, instead of sitting on the couch watching the Kardashians, get down on the floor and start smashing yourself with a ball while you're watching the Kardashians, or start doing some strength movements while you're watching the Kardashians. You know, you don't have to completely sacrifice your TV shows if you love them, but you can actually multitask and do things that are beneficial. You can sit there and do stretches and yoga while you're watching TV if you really want. You know, you don't have to go to certain athletes, but you can benefit. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, but what I'm getting at is those things accumulate. Like, from today—listeners out there—if you started spending half an hour every night working on your mobility, or whatever it is, any weakness in your body that you need to work on—half an hour a night over time, you know, those changes will add up, and it'll help you progress your surfing but also help you maintain a certain level of surfing as you age if that's your goal, which is—I consider—a progression in itself. You know, if you're maintaining a certain level as you age, you know, that's also considered a progression—you know, surf longevity.
Jarred Hancox
I can say from even just five minutes a day of focusing on a certain area of your body that might be giving you grief will make a huge difference within a week. You'll just be like—if you're doing the right thing for that body part, it's just something. Just something. You just do something. You just do something every day and you're going to really feel the benefits.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. All right, Jarred, before we go, I've got four quick questions for you. All right. Just quickfire questions. Who's your favorite surfer?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, that's a hard one, man, because there's just so many surfers that I look up to. Obviously, I guess everyone can say Kelly Slater, but you know who I really like watching now is Mick Fanning.
Michael Frampton
Yeah.
Jarred Hancox
Let's say Mick Fanning, because when I've seen him surf live, he's just faster than anyone. Yeah. Also Mick Fanning.
Michael Frampton
Cool. Good choice. Okay. What about Goofy Footer?
Jarred Hancox
Goofy Footer. Oh, there's so many good Goofys now. For backhand, I think Matt Wilkinson. And even his forehand's pretty awesome. Can't go wrong with guys like, you know, Gabrielle Medina. And yeah, I like all those Brazilian Goofy Footers. They're awesome to watch. I can't give you a specific one, though, mate. Sorry. But when I was younger, Rob Machado was my favorite.
Michael Frampton
Yep. Nice.
Jarred Hancox
And Timmy Curran.
Michael Frampton
Yep. Okay. Favorite surfboard. Is your standard custom shortboard kind of loosely based around one of the off-the-shelf models from Wanda?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, it is. It is. So my favorite, you know, for sure, and I can sort of back this up with my quiver—I just got six new boards off Wanda and five of them are the Elite model. And that's currently my favorite model. And it's basically his flagship high-performance pro model.
Michael Frampton
Yep.
Jarred Hancox
So, you know, if he makes boards for any of the new ones doing the QS or tour or whatever, he ends up—they usually get an Elite model. So, and then from there, he's just customized, you know, nose whips and tail whips, etc., for my own style. That's the curve and outline that I love the most. Yep. The Wanda Elite.
Michael Frampton
Cool. Okay. And what about—do you have a favorite surf movie or film?
Jarred Hancox
Oh, you know, I always love the Taylor Steele movies. You know, Focus, Good Times. All those '90s movies are cool because you can still watch them and you don't have to be a gymnastic wizard to be able to aspire to most of those moves they were doing. They had aerials that, you know, were completely impossible to the average Joe Bloggs. Yep. Taylor Steele movies, for sure, from the '90s—epic.
Michael Frampton
What about—do you have a favorite New Zealand surf movie? Oh, New Zealand surf movie. There wasn't that many, was there? All I can think of is Coastal Disturbance 1, 2 and 3.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, they were before my time, so I never really got into them. There's a guy called Damon Mead—he's made some really epic movies in New Zealand. But to be honest—and I'm not being biased—but I really like... this is going to sound stupid, but I've made a couple of movies: Taranaki Tour 1, 2 and 3.
Michael Frampton
Yep.
Jarred Hancox
And I hardly ever watch them, but sometimes I'll, you know, I might have a date or something and go, "Oh, you want to see a movie I made once?" Or, you know, I might just show a friend. And I love watching them. When I watch them—oh, that's so awesome, because I put hundreds of hours into making those movies and just seeing all the good footage of me and my friends and other local guys surfing. And there's sort of excerpts from overseas as well on those DVDs. And the soundtrack was all my favorite sort of music. So yeah, I'd have to say my own DVDs I made in the 2000s, which were Taranaki Tour 1, 2 and 3.
Michael Frampton
Okay, cool. All right. So you dabbled in a lot of different things as well.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, everything. I did the filming—or me and my friends did the filming. I did the editing. I made the DVD covers. I made the labels that stick on the discs.
Michael Frampton
Cool.
Jarred Hancox
And I distributed them to the local shops.
Michael Frampton
Cool. Are there any excerpts or samples of that footage online on YouTube or anything folks can look at?
Jarred Hancox
No, I haven't actually uploaded any of those Taranaki Tour 1, 2 and 3s online, sorry. But yeah, if I do, I'll let you know.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Now, so do you have a website or a blog or anything that folks can go and...
Jarred Hancox
I think you can follow me on Instagram. What's my Instagram name? jrodnz. Yep. And follow me on Facebook. Just add me as a friend on Facebook. I put a lot of stuff on Facebook under Jarred Hancox. Yeah, that probably is the main two social media things I push. I've got a Vimeo webpage—a Vimeo, you know, thing with heaps of videos on there. Although I'm going more towards doing really short clips on Facebook and Instagram these days.
Michael Frampton
Yep. Okay.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, but there is some epic—I've got some epic footage on Vimeo. Like, awesome GoPro and the YouTube stuff. And yeah, some really high-quality made web clips on there that are well worth just checking out my channel on Vimeo under Jarred Hancox.
Michael Frampton
Okay, sweet. I'll put links to all this stuff in the show notes as well. But if you guys want to go and see Jarred's... some of the footage and photos of him surfing, yeah, his Instagram page @jrodnz—that's J-R-O-D-N-Z—there's his Instagram handle. And Jarred, thank you so much for your time today. That's awesome.
Jarred Hancox
Yeah, awesome. Really enjoyed it, Mike. Thank you.
Michael Frampton
Cool. Thanks, Jarred. See ya.
Jarred Hancox
Awesome. See ya, mate.
Michael Frampton
Thanks for tuning in to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surf Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating. That'd be awesome. Until next time, keep surfing.
16 Jarred Hancox - NZ National Champ (+35) 2016
For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.
1 hr 25 min
August 01, 2016015: NAM BALDWIN - Director of Breath Enhancement Training.
Available On All Platforms:
Show Notes for The Surf Mastery Podcast: Mastering Breathwork and Stress Management with Nam Baldwin
What if improving your breathing could be the key to conquering wipeouts, boosting performance, and mastering your mindset in the water?
Surfers often focus on physical technique but overlook the power of their breath. In this episode, we explore how mastering rhythmic breathing, focus, and stress management can transform the way you surf—helping you stay calm under pressure, recover faster, and tap into the flow state when sitting out the back.
Discover how breathing affects your nervous system, brain waves, and even the acidity of your blood, allowing you to optimize oxygen use and performance in the surf.
Learn practical techniques like rhythmic breathing, peripheral vision awareness, and diaphragmatic training to handle high-pressure surf conditions and recover effectively.
Gain insights from Nam Baldwin’s experience training world-class athletes like Mick Fanning and applying his BET (Breath Enhancement Training) methods to improve both surfing performance and safety.
Unlock the secrets to better surfing through breathwork—tune in now to transform your performance in and out of the water!
For more, visit BET Training and check out Nam Baldwin's upcoming ebook on breath hold training for surfers.
Noticeable Quotes:
"The challenge in surfing isn’t lack of oxygen—it’s excess carbon dioxide."
"Your breathing is the most important part of how to self-regulate."
"Narrow focus generally creates intensity and stress, whereas an open focus calms the brain."
"If we breathe rhythmically and evenly, we allow oxygen to be released more efficiently from the blood, optimizing performance."
"When under stress, focus on following your breath with your mind to relax the body and let go of tension."
Nam educates us on how the way we breathe affects our nervous system and stress response - therefore our performance in the water. We also discuss breathing in relation to big wave surfing and hold-downs.
Show Notes:
http://www.bettraining.com/
Red Bull brain wave study: http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/biomedical/imaging/neuroscience-gets-radical-how-to-study-surfers-brain-waves
Key Points
Nam Baldwin introduced Breath Enhancement Training (BET), a program to help surfers deal with high-pressure moments and improve breath holding, breathing, and resetting after challenging situations.
Rhythmic and even breathing can influence the heartbeat and assist the heart in pumping blood and oxygen more efficiently.
Proper breathing techniques, such as breathing low into the lungs first, can optimize oxygen release from hemoglobin and improve oxygen efficiency.
During stressful situations, maintaining an open focus or peripheral vision can help calm the brain and reduce stress response.
Practicing diaphragmatic breathing exercises can strengthen the diaphragm muscle and improve the mind-muscle connection for better breathing under stress.
Short breath-hold exercises, such as 40-second breath holds with minimal rest, can help build tolerance to carbon dioxide buildup experienced during wipeouts.
Nam discussed working with professional surfers like Mick Fanning to improve their breathing and stress management through BET training.
Nam recommended morning breathing routines to establish rhythmic breathing, activate the diaphragm, and prepare the body for the day's activities.
Outline
Introduction of Nam Baldwin and BET
Nam Baldwin is introduced as a highly qualified emotional and stress control management specialist.
He is the co-developer of the internationally recognized Breath Enhancement Training (BET).
Nam's credentials include being a life coach, motivational coach, and health coach.
He has trained world champions in surfing, including Mick Fanning and Steph Gilmore, as well as Olympic gold medalists.
BET is a program developed about 12-15 years ago to assist surfers in dealing with high-pressure moments during surfing, such as hold-downs and surfing bigger waves.
The program aims to improve breath hold safely under stress, enhance breathing to self-regulate the nervous system's response, and reset from challenging moments.
It focuses on helping surfers perform at a high level without getting in their own way.
Importance of Breathing for Self-Regulation
Breathing is the foundation of self-regulation.
When stressed, breathing is the first thing that changes, affecting heartbeat and nervous system operation.
Better breathing under pressure leads to better regulation of stress response.
Rhythmic and even breathing is emphasized, using breathing muscles in the correct sequence.
This involves breathing air low into the lungs before it goes to the upper chest.
Stress often leads to high chest breathing, which is shallow, rapid, and irregular.
Slower, lower, and more rhythmic breathing assists the heart in pumping blood and oxygen more effectively, particularly to the brain.
Influence of Rhythmic Breathing on Heartbeat
Rhythmic breathing directly influences heartbeat.
Devices can illustrate the heart beating relative to breathing patterns on a screen.
The heart sits in a bag called the pericardium, which is attached to the diaphragm.
Effective use of the diaphragm, the primary in-breath muscle, assists in stretching the pericardium, elongating the heart, and helping blood movement.
This makes the diaphragm act as a second pump, reducing stress on the heart.
Better heart function leads to better nervous system operation, as the heart sends messages throughout the body with each beat, signaling the body's state and experience.
Reflexive Breathing Under Stress
Reflexive breathing occurs in stressful situations.
This type of breathing is the body's attempt to increase oxygen intake to process the stressful situation and prepare for fight or flight.
However, this response may not be the most effective way to breathe under stress.
With proper training, individuals can learn to breathe more effectively when stress stimuli kick in, leading to a better overall response to stressful situations.
Application of Breathing Techniques in Surfing Scenarios
These breathing techniques can be applied in surfing scenarios, such as after a heavy hold-down.
In such situations, surfers often experience oxygen debt and carbon dioxide excess.
Good breathing can help repay the oxygen debt quickly, eliminate excess carbon dioxide, and bring the muscular, respiratory, and cardiovascular systems back to an effective operating state.
Progressive breathing, which is even and rhythmic, is recommended to recover from such situations.
Specific Advice on Recovery Breathing Techniques
Specific advice on breathing techniques for recovery after intense surfing experiences includes starting with mouth breathing for both inhalation and exhalation based on the urgency to breathe.
As the heart rate drops and the nervous system calms, transition to nose inhalation and mouth exhalation.
Finally, move to full nose breathing when comfortable.
The key is to focus on getting air low in the lungs first, then high, and maintaining an even and rhythmic breath pattern.
The specific timing of breaths (e.g., 5 seconds in, 5 seconds out) may vary based on individual needs, but consistency and rhythm are crucial.
Working with Professional Surfer Mick Fanning
Experience working with professional surfer Mick Fanning started around 2006-2007.
Introduction to Fanning was through their coach, Phil Mack.
A session conducted with Mack and his surfers led to a significant improvement in their performance.
This success prompted Mack to recommend the training to Fanning.
Work with professional surfers focuses on stress management, enhancing awareness, and improving focus through breathing techniques and other physical attributes that assist under pressure.
Concept of 'Open Focus' or 'Gaze'
The concept of 'open focus' or 'gaze' is introduced as a technique to manage stress.
This involves using peripheral vision when approaching potentially stressful situations, such as paddling out in surfing.
By maintaining awareness of the peripheral vision rather than narrowly focusing on the immediate threat, surfers can calm their brains and reduce stress response.
This technique is contrasted with narrow focus, which tends to create intensity and stress.
Breath Hold Training in BET
Breath hold training included in BET involves short breath holds similar to the duration of wipeouts, combined with activities that stress the heart rate.
The training simulates real surfing conditions by including activities like being spun around underwater or wrestling underwater.
This approach allows surfers to learn controlled breath-holding under higher heart rates, mimicking actual surfing scenarios.
The training is conducted in a safe, progressive environment, typically leading to significant improvements over six to seven sessions.
Safety Aspects of Breath Training
Emphasis on safety aspects of breath training, particularly in relation to drowning prevention in surfing.
Many drownings in surfing are likely due to extreme stress responses, where improper breathing and movement can lead to rapid oxygen depletion and muscle fatigue.
The training focuses on teaching surfers to remain calm during hold-downs, conserving oxygen and limiting carbon dioxide buildup.
Most wipeouts in six-foot waves only last about 8-9 seconds, emphasizing the importance of managing this short time effectively.
Oxygen Efficiency and Blood pH
The concept of oxygen efficiency is discussed, explaining how breathing affects blood pH and oxygen release.
The Bohr effect is introduced, describing how the acidity or alkalinity of blood affects oxygen release from hemoglobin.
Proper nose breathing and rhythmic, even breaths help maintain optimal blood acidity for efficient oxygen release.
Mouth breathing or hyperventilation can lead to blood becoming too alkaline, making it harder for the body to utilize available oxygen.
Diaphragm Training for Core Strength
The importance of diaphragm training for core strength is highlighted.
A diaphragm pump exercise is described, involving rapid nose breathing focusing on activating the diaphragm, rectus abdominis, and transverse abdominis.
This exercise helps train these muscles to activate effectively under stress or elevated heart rate.
A study showing a 24% increase in diaphragm thickness over six weeks with just eight minutes of daily practice is mentioned.
Safe Breath Hold Exercises for Home Practice
Advice on safe breath hold exercises that surfers can practice at home is provided.
Focus should be on comfort with short breath holds (under a minute) rather than attempting extremely long holds.
A suggested routine involves four 40-second breath holds with minimal rest between each, performed as a morning ritual.
This approach helps build comfort with breath holding under slight pressure without risking low oxygen levels.
The challenge in surfing is not lack of oxygen but excess carbon dioxide, so training should focus on building tolerance to CO2 buildup.
Personal Morning Breathing Routine
A personal morning breathing routine is shared, which includes establishing a nice, rhythmic, even breath for 3-5 minutes (5 seconds in, 5 seconds out).
Focus on belly rising and falling to stabilize CO2 balance in the blood.
Perform diaphragmatic exercises to encourage strength and brain connection.
Do in-breath muscle stretching and strengthening exercises (lung packs).
Hydrate.
This routine aims to activate breathing muscles, warm them up, and prepare the body for the day's activities.
Connection Between Self-Doubt and Physical Responses
The connection between self-doubt and physical responses in the body is explained.
When experiencing self-doubt, the vagus nerve stimulates the diaphragm, increasing breathing to help process the mental challenge.
By consciously controlling breathing during moments of doubt, one can shift attention to something controllable, allowing the brain to process the situation more effectively.
Key Strategies for Surfers
Key strategies for surfers to implement include maintaining a tall, relaxed posture when sitting out back.
Using an unfocused gaze, being aware of peripheral vision.
Relaxing the eyes.
Breathing rhythmically and evenly.
Focusing on deep breaths, activating the belly and sides of the abdomen.
These techniques aim to enhance relaxation, focus, and overall performance in surfing.
Transcription
Because that is the challenge in the Surfing. It's not lack of oxygen, it's excess carbon dioxide.
Welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. We interview the world's best surfers and the people behind them to provide you with education and inspiration to Surfing better.
Michael Frampton
Today my guest is Nam Baldwin. Nam is a highly qualified emotional and stress control management specialist. He is the co -developer of the internationally recognized BET or Breath Enhancement Training. He's a life coach, a motivational coach, a health coach. He has trained world champions including Mick Fanning, Steph Gilmore, and some Olympic gold medalists as well. Nam, tell me about what is Breath Enhancement Training?
Nam Baldwin
It's a program that we put together about probably 12, 15 years ago now to assist all surfers in the beginning in dealing with the high pressure moments that we have when we go for a surf. So hold downs, Surfing bigger waves, and dealing with moments where you really go into a bit of a stressed state, how to improve a number of elements around that.
So how to improve your breath hold safely when you're under stress, how to improve your breathing to help self -regulate the way in which your nervous system responds, so that fight or flight response. And then how to really allow yourself to reset from challenging moments too, so that when you're out the back, if you've just got through and you're like, holy moly, this is heavy out here, how to self -regulate one's thoughts and behavior so that you can perform on a high level. You're not gonna get in the way of yourself.
Michael Frampton
And all of that stuff can be affected through your breathing?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, predominantly, that's the foundation of it all. Your breathing is the most important part of how to self -regulate. The first thing that changes when you get stressed is your breath, which then affects your heartbeat, which then affects the way in which your nervous system operates, nervous system being that fight, flight response or freeze response that we go into.
So the better your breathing is, excuse me, under pressure, the better you can regulate your response to the stress that you're going through.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so how do you mean by better?
Nam Baldwin
So very simply, if I'm going under stress, the important thing is that my breathing is rhythmic and even, and that I'm using my muscles, the breathing muscles that I have in a correct sequence. So predominantly breathing in air low into my lungs before it goes up to the upper part of my chest. A lot of us, when we get stressed, we become high chest breathers and breathe shallow and rapid and irregular.
So as soon as we breathe a little slower, a little lower, and then make that breathing more even and rhythmic, the heart is then assisted in the way in which it pumps blood and oxygen around the body and primarily to the brain, where it's so more effective at the job that it has to do because the breathing is better.
Michael Frampton
So rhythmic breathing can influence your heartbeat?
Nam Baldwin
Totally. Yeah, so we've got various little devices that we illustrate that live on a screen where people can see their heart beating relative to the way in which they're breathing. And if you're breathing shallow, erratic, or fast, erratic, your heart is interfered by that way of breathing. And how it's interfered is that your heart actually sits in a bag called a pericardium, and attached to the bottom of that bag is your diaphragm.
So if your diaphragm isn't moving much when you breathe in and out, it isn't assisting your heart as much as it could if it was. So the diaphragm, which is your primary in -breath muscle, when used effectively, assists in stretching that bag out, elongating the heart, and sucking blood or assisting blood moving into the heart so that when it then pushes back up when we breathe out, now the heart's being pushed up via the diaphragm and helping expel blood out of it.
So it becomes a second pump. Okay.
Michael Frampton
So your heart kind of recognizes, hey, there's a nice rhythmic breathing going on through the diaphragm. I'm gonna jump on that and time myself to be more efficient.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, and have greater movement so that it doesn't have to beat as hard, so to speak, to get the blood in and out. It's being assisted. And therefore, less stress and load on it.
Michael Frampton
Okay, and that directly affects your nervous system.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, so interestingly, every time your heart beats, it's sending a message around your body in relation to the state in which it is in and the experience in which your body's going through. So the better your heart beats, the more it regulates the nerves that travel away from it through various means to signal that you're in control or you're in a state of coherence, which is ability for systems to work effectively together.
So the better the heart beats, the better the nervous system operates.
Michael Frampton
Okay, when we experience a stressful situation, we tend to go into what's sometimes called reflexive breathing. And for those listening, it's sort of a, that sort of breathing, isn't it?
Yeah. And the body kind of naturally does that, doesn't it? Now, why does it do that and why is that bad?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, it does it because it's trying to increase the amount of oxygen coming into your body so that it can process what's going on and then give you an abundance of oxygen so that you can run or fight from whatever's going on around you. You just probably have not entrained yourself to breathe effectively when that stimulus kicks into gear.
So normally, you know, an ancient day when that happened, when you got very stressed, your breathing would increase because you were taking action, you were taking flight. We may have forgotten how to breathe effectively to improve that response.
So it doesn't take much, that's the other thing too, it doesn't take much to teach someone and for them to entrain that response to be way better, to breathe when the stimulus kicks in a slightly more meaningful way, bit more even, bit more rhythmic, bit more intent behind your breath and then you're assisting yourself.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I guess from a practical sense in my own experience, it's been, you know, if you have a nice, quite a good beating or a good hold down in some sizey Surfing and you might manage to get back out the back to safety and you're sitting out the back and you just realize that you're 100 % absolutely flogged and wiped out and basically your Surfing is over. So is regaining control of your breath a way to influence and kind of push the reset button on a Surfing like that in that situation?
Nam Baldwin
Absolutely, so you know, predominantly you've probably gone into a big oxygen debt and a carbon dioxide excess, meaning that you're feeling fairly lactic and heavy. So with good breathing, you'll repay the oxygen debt fairly quickly. You'll get rid of the excess lactic or carbon dioxide and then the systems that allow you to work effectively, the muscular, respiratory, cardiovascular systems will come back into an operating place where you'll feel quite good. But you just might need a couple of minutes to get that to happen through really progressive breathing, which is generally just even and rhythmic and things will come back into play.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so for folks listening, would you suggest a particular time signature to try?
Nam Baldwin
To time as in how long they have to breathe in that matter for or?
Michael Frampton
Well, let's say you're in that situation, you've had a heavy hold down, you realize neurologically you're wiped out but you managed to get back out the back to safety. Yeah. And is there a particular, how many seconds in, how many seconds out?
Nam Baldwin
Okay, see what you're saying, yeah. So, well, whatever the body requires and you're aiming for, I guess the best way to sort of illustrate it is, initially you're gonna have to use your mouth to breathe and you'll use your mouth to breathe in and out based on the urgency to breathe and breathing heavy. And when you feel that you can use your nose to breathe in and your mouth to breathe out, go to that phase. And that will mean that your heart rate is dropping and your nervous system's calming down.
And then when that becomes easy, go to nose. Now that may take a period of time based on your fitness. In terms of how long do you breathe in for and out for?
Well, at the beginning of that stress response, whatever's required, as long as you're focusing on getting the air low in the lungs and then high as a process. Because to say, five seconds in, five seconds out, et cetera, it may not be right for an individual. They may need shorter, longer, whatever works for them. But as long as it is fairly even and rhythmic.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so that sounds like that's key, right? The rhythm of the breathing.
Nam Baldwin
That's right, yeah. And if you look at a really good runner, a really good Surfing who's paddling out effectively, their breathing will be very even and rhythmic. There'll be consistency.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so is that another thing you might recommend to Surfing, to breathe in time with your stroke?
Nam Baldwin
You could do, you could use that, or you could just follow your breath with your mind. When you do that, you will become even and more rhythmic with your breathing.
So it's just something that you could focus on for a short period of time to get it into that way of breathing. It's amazing what will happen when you put your mind on something.
So so if you breathe in, just follow it.
Michael Frampton
Follow your breath with your mind. Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
And then when you breathe out, follow it. You'll create a rhythmic, even breath when you do that.
Michael Frampton
Okay, just by becoming more aware.
Nam Baldwin
That's right. Wow. Quite a simple process.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Could you tell us, what did you do with Mick Fanning? We.
Nam Baldwin
Got introduced way back in, I think it was 2006, 2007 maybe, no, 2007, through his coach, Phil Mack. When I was just basically teaching people a lot of the BET training, and I invited Phil because he had a couple of, obviously he had Mick, but he had a couple of other really good Surfing in his group, and he was keen to see and hear what the training was all about. Took him through a session, and he, him and his guys had a profound shift in how they felt, how they performed in the session. They got tremendous gain from it all, and then he basically recommended it to Mick. He said to Mick, I think this is a good thing for you to do, and we then came together, and I took him through a session and challenged him, and that's where it all began. He loved the challenge and the information backed with the practices that we teach just have such good, real application to real life stuff.
So it started from there.
Michael Frampton
Okay, so any pro Surfing is often and always putting themselves in quite stressful situations, so it's partly, it sounds like this breathing has got a lot to do with stress management, right?
Nam Baldwin
Of course, Absolutely, and then there's other things that we teach in relation to other physical attributes that will assist you under pressure that need to be bolted on to good breathing, and then that helps regulate the emotional side of things.
Michael Frampton
Of course. Okay, and that enhances your awareness and your focus.
Nam Baldwin
And again, keeping it incredibly simple with a simple application of a physical thing that you do to keep your brain calmer under pressure.
Michael Frampton
Okay, are we talking posture or a trigger move? Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
So yeah, posture's a good place to be, but the use of your eyes actually has a profound impact on your stress response, so making sure that on a consistent basis you're going into what we call open focus or a gaze as you're approaching something that may be stressful. So if I'm paddling out, I wanna tend to be more aware of the peripheral of my vision, not narrowly focusing on the impact zone of what's just in front of me or about to hit me. I'm still having awareness of that space, but I have awareness of the peripheral of my vision, and that calms my brain down.
Michael Frampton
Okay, that's interesting. I haven't heard that one before.
So is that kind of like a relaxation of the eye muscles? Is that part of it?
Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
Kind of, yeah. So if you had, easiest way to sort of talk about it is if you eyeball someone, if you go very close and look at someone's eyes, and then you put your hands to the side of the person's head, but look at their eyes, but be very aware of the hands on the corners of your peripheral, you'll find it a lot more comfortable because you're now going into more open focus.
So narrow focus generally creates intensity, stress if it's really zoned in, and you'll notice that when someone approaches something very stressful, their eyes enlarge, and they go into focusing narrowly on something, which is just trying to help you. However, it will create more of a stress response.
Michael Frampton
And it's obviously the stuff you're teaching is relevant for hold downs as well.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, absolutely. So what we do is activity that involves short breath holds similar to the times that you're wiping out for, with activity that is putting your body under stress from a heart rate perspective, and then simulating or mimicking what goes on when you're wiping out.
So you're learning to hold your breath in a more controlled manner under a higher heart rate, which is real to Surfing. Doing activity that is similar to a wipe out, being spun around upside down, back to front, et cetera, wrestling underwater, those sorts of things, that is trying to simulate as best we can what really happens.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and I guess on your course, you get to do that in a safe environment. Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
Absolutely. And that's the whole objective, is keep it very safe and progressive so that you get tremendous change in a person over six to seven sessions. They have a massive shift in their performance when it comes to things like hold downs and then being able to reset body and mind after a challenging experience.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and I'm gonna speculate here a little bit, but I'm gonna guess that a lot of drownings in Surfing are due to the amount of stress in the body. Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, and going into that fight or flight to an extreme level where, when it comes to breath regulation, you've gotta learn to calm yourself so that you're not burning as much oxygen and creating lots of carbon dioxide that will then lock muscles up. Yeah. And yeah, you can't swim out of things. You get, you're fatiguing yourself through inappropriate breathing and movement.
Michael Frampton
And even like, I'm guessing, when you're held under in a big wave and you're getting tumbled, if you can, I mean, you're gonna come up, right, eventually. Absolutely. And if you can remain calm, then you're conserving oxygen and limiting carbon dioxide, right?
Nam Baldwin
Correct, yeah. Okay.
So being very aware of the sensation of a wave holding you under, and then when it releases you, okay, it's time to come up, but don't try and come up whilst it's doing its thing and pounding you into the ocean.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. Okay, so it's just as much as a safety course as it is a performance course.
Nam Baldwin
And then being realistic and getting the facts that potentially a six foot wave that you wipe out on, you're underwater for about eight seconds, nine seconds maybe. It's not a long period of time, so manage that time.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. It can feel like a long time sometimes. Absolutely, Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah. Yeah, a bad time is a long time.
Michael Frampton
Do you recommend counting during a wipeout?
Nam Baldwin
Look, you could. I sort of, you know, recommend a number of different things, but that can be a good thing. And another thing is, you know, just to be aware of the feeling of being moved and when that intensity backs off, okay, it's time to come up. You could put your mind in a happy place and just enjoy the experience. You can, you know, be aware of an area of your body that isn't getting stressed at all, like your hands or your feet.
And then probably as important as all those things is just remembering not to breathe out when you wipe out.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, okay, yeah, of course, yeah. What about, have you heard of this guy called Wim Hof?
Nam Baldwin
I have heard of Wim Hof, yeah.
Michael Frampton
Do you have an opinion on his work at all? Not.
Nam Baldwin
Really, I haven't really looked into it a great deal. And I think a lot of what I have seen, he really does back his stuff on scientific evidence and so on, so a little bit that I have seen, it's a lot of the information's quite interesting and real. I just haven't looked into it enough to sort of make an opinion on it other than he is backing a lot of what he's saying with good evidence.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, I've looked into him a bit. I mean, there's no denying some of the stuff he's done and it's all through breathing and I guess part of the reason I mention that is, it's just, I mean, we all look at, you know, we've got food, you know. Food is an input that we need. We can go 40 days without food, essentially, and we all know how the quality of our food affects our bodies and of course, the way we eat, whether we chew our food, our meal timing, et cetera affects it and then water, we can go four or five days without water but again, the quality of our water and the timing of when and how much and how we drink our water is a big thing but you can only go without air for a few minutes and we don't tend to look into it that much, really. It seems like there's a big mismatch there and you look at someone like Wim Hof who's gone to the extreme where he's doing these quite full -on breathing practices but he holds the world record for, you know, swimming under the ice, sitting in an ice bath for two hours without changing his core temperature. I think he got only a few thousand feet shorter for the summit of Mount Everest in his shorts.
I mean, this guy is obviously he's been doing it for a long time but it's just such a powerful message. He's like, you know what, breathing, the way you breathe can affect your performance, your life, your health.
Totally, amazing and obviously, it's something that, you know, Surfing is, you spend a lot of time underwater holding your breath.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, it's incredible. It's Yeah, so it's just about conditioning, isn't it, and about an acceptance of some of the things that we go through and then, okay, well what can we do to assist ourselves and to learn those practices and then to practice and then you condition yourself into, obviously, coping better with what comes.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, and so there was a study that Red Bull did a while ago where they were measuring the brain waves of good Surfing and they found that a good surfer naturally will automatically, once they've got back out the back into safety and they're waiting for the next wave, they'll go into what's called alpha brain waves. Now, that's part of your nervous system and that can be affected by your breathing as well, am I right? Absolutely.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, so when we do a session, we always go into what we call a recovery mode where we spend eight to 10 minutes on calming the breath right down to a point where, you know, every participant's sort of breathing maybe anywhere from one to four times in a minute, which is, you know, normally it's eight to 10 without any effort and in that process, it's doing specific things with the mind which allows then the body to let go of tension and then as that occurs, the nervous system will calm into what's called a parasympathetic state which is a healing state and in that state, we then influence the brain, its pattern in which it works. So if there's obviously less stress based upon the way we breathe, the way we think, with these little practices that we do, we can go into a very deep parasympathetic state which induces this probably a bit deeper than that, more of a theta state in the sessions that we run.
So a deep sleep is delta and we're going into theta which is, you know, a beautiful calming experience within the mind and body and through practice of doing that every session, obviously then you can bring that into, you know, sitting at the back, you can go into that place and maybe not into deep theta but into alpha which is, you know, where flow and the ability to really sort of go with what is starts to happen.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so you mentioned, I mean, I've kind of already asked this question already but let's reiterate it. So in that case, in that situation where you, let's say you really wanna, you know, increase your performance and you wanna make sure that when you're sitting at the back, you're nice and relaxed and getting into alpha brainwaves, is there a particular timing of breath that you recommend or is it again more back to that rhythm?
Nam Baldwin
It's just, you know, I'm using it potentially as a little focal point where you are following your breath with your mind and as you do that, you then allow, you know, other areas of the body to relax too, in particular the jaw, that area and then the chest and around the heart as you breathe out to soften those areas. The timing of the breath again is relative to the individual but, you know, if you would aim for, as an example, might be five seconds in, five seconds out, something around that time frame seems to be well connected to a very good heartbeat because most athletes or Surfing, you know, resting heart rate is going down to sort of 60s to 70 beats per minute.
So that would be quite easy to induce a five second in, five second out and then once that's established, then, you know, just let go of tension so that final motor skill can operate on a higher level.
Michael Frampton
Okay, cool and so whereabouts are you, Nan? Whereabouts are you running these courses?
Nam Baldwin
All around the country, on our website, we just, we send out information of where we'll be. So we run them in Sydney, Melbourne, Gold Coast every month, Perth, Newcastle, all around the country. We just, yeah, again, we just send out the info on our website and when you go to the website, you can see where the next dates are and the available spots, et cetera. Yep.
Michael Frampton
Okay and that's BETraining .com? Yep. Awesome, I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, perfect.
Michael Frampton
And apart from working with Surfing, are you working with people in any other capacity?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, a number of different Olympic teams and individuals on all levels, so kayakers, swimmers, BMX guys, runners, you name it. Then I work with the Titans often, so whenever I'm home, I'm doing a session with them at least once a week, once a fortnight and then a lot of business people, really going to businesses and assisting them in stress management but in utilizing a slightly different approach than most where we focus on better physical performance through daily rituals, et cetera, that allows them to have better mental performance.
So all scopes and breathing is always part of it because it's such an important part of living.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, the oxygen efficiency, how does that work? I mean, when you suggest that one could improve your oxygen efficiency, it almost is kind of stating that we're oxygen gluttons.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, well, we've got a lot of it in our body. It's whether we can tap into it.
So I'll give you an example of that. If I'm a mouth breather, when I'm breathing through my mouth, it's not necessarily meant to happen. In other words, I'm calm, I'm relaxed but I'm using my mouth to breathe. I'll lower my carbon dioxide to a point where my blood becomes too alkaline and now the hemoglobin that carries oxygen around my body doesn't release the oxygen very well.
So I become oxygen deficient through mouth breathing. Now, if I use my nose effectively and I'm breathing rhythmically, evenly and low on the in -breath before I bring the air up into the top part of my lungs, I'm really allowing that chemical formula, that acidity in my blood to be at an optimum where oxygen is released readily from hemoglobin. And now I'm getting more efficiency through my breath because I can now tap into it.
So a simple example is hyperventilate for two minutes and you'll black out. How come?
Well, you've got rid of so much carbon dioxide that now you can't extract oxygen from your hemoglobin cells because the acidity is lost. So it's a fine balance breathing. And if we get it right, the balance, we work at an optimum.
So we can tap into the oxygen that we have. And if we really bolt on good breathing methods around intensive activity or intensive stress, we're optimizing our ability to tap into that oxygen content. And that's what our brain primarily wants when it's stressed along with sugar.
Michael Frampton
Interesting. So the way you breathe affects the acidity or the pH of your blood.
Nam Baldwin
That's right. And that needs to be at an optimum for good release of oxygen from hemoglobin. It's called the Bohr effect.
Michael Frampton
Can you spell that?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, B -O -H -R.
Michael Frampton
Okay, interesting. Yeah, that's probably what Wim Hof is doing a lot of. He does.
Nam Baldwin
It. Absolutely, yeah, there you go, yeah. And if people eliminate too much CO2, which I have seen on a couple of clips, they pass out. Because now they're locking the oxygen out. And I don't know if that's a good practice, but it demonstrates things.
Clear. So the opposite is true then if you were to breathe very evenly, rhythmically, but to the right areas of the lungs. Lower lobes potentially are absorbing a lot more oxygen than the upper part of the lungs, which is predominantly upper chest breathing.
So over time, that percentage of how much is absorbed into the bloodstream is higher with better breathing. Therefore, you'll get more from each breath.
Michael Frampton
It's in the training world, if you dive deep enough, you learn that the diaphragm is actually the master muscle of the rest of your core. Of course. And when you breathe properly, you improve the sequencing and the firing capacity of your transverse abdominals and your obliques, et cetera. And you actually get a stronger, more efficient core that allows your spine to move smoothly as well.
Nam Baldwin
Absolutely. And therefore, some of the activities that we get people to practice is diaphragmatic activity to increase the muscle brain connection so that the muscle and the brain are very well connected when under stress, because that usually is lost when we get stressed. Things drop out of circuit.
Michael Frampton
Could you give me an example of an exercise that might help that? Yeah, sure.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, we do what we call a diaphragm pump for a specific amount of time, and it's breathing in and out through the nose fairly rapidly for a period of time. So it would sound like this. And all I'm doing is breathing in and out and predominantly activating diaphragm rectus abdominis, transverse abdominis to get the air in and out of the lower portion of my lungs. And if I do that at the rate that I just did for a period of time, I'm then in training those muscles to activate if my heart rate elevates, if I go under stress, they should come into play because I have entrained them to do so at that rate with that type of intensity.
Michael Frampton
Wow, there's so much to breathing in the diaphragm. Yeah.
Nam Baldwin
We did a test with that. We got a 24 % change in thickness in the diaphragm through those sorts of activities over a six week period with just working on it eight minutes a day. Wow. Massive.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, okay. Now, obviously it's, you know, if you're gonna practice any sort of breath hold work, you need to be with a partner, especially when it comes to water. But is there anything that one, if there's any Surfing out there that are interested in increasing their breath hold time, is there any safe exercises they can do sitting on the couch?
Nam Baldwin
Sure, you could, you know, probably my advice is that you're not going for length of time in terms of, you know, let me see if I can do minutes and minutes on end, but potentially just getting comfortable holding your breath for a short period of time, longer than what you need in the Surfing. So let's say we keep it under a minute, a 40 second breath hold. You might repeat in the morning, you just do four breath holds.
So you're just activating a breath hold sequence where you breathe in correctly, hold your breath for 40 seconds, breathe out correctly, which is something that we teach in the courses, breathe in again and hold for 40, and do that four times in a row. That's your little morning ritual to activate the ability for your brain to be okay and comfortable with a good amount of time holding your breath with minimal rest between each breath hold. And I wouldn't recommend doing any more than four breath holds in a sequence. But it's under 50 seconds, 40 seconds for each one. But you're just going to that level where normal people will find it quite challenging to hold their breath in that sequence, where you're just getting comfortable with that.
So when it comes to teaching people about breath holding, it's getting comfortable with short breath holds where you're under a bit of pressure. So if you've only got a breath in and a breath out to recover between each breath hold, each one will be progressively harder, but it's not to a point where you're gonna get low oxygen levels, et cetera. You're actually getting high carbon dioxide, which is what you want to build a tolerance to, because that is the challenge in the Surfing. It's not lack of oxygen. It's excess carbon dioxide that creates the stressful feelings.
So it's exposing yourself to that. Another simple way is to do fairly intensive cardiovascular work so that your tolerance to climbing CO2 through sprint work will allow you to hold your breath for longer, because you're more tolerant to that gas. And that's why you want to breathe out when you hold your breath. By actually developing an ebook with Mark Matthews, and we're putting it together purely for people to train their capacity to hold their breath better in the Surfing without having to get in the pool.
Michael Frampton
Awesome, I look forward to that.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, it's gonna be good.
Michael Frampton
When's that due to be released?
Nam Baldwin
Look, shortly. We're not too far away. We've done a lot of filming on it, and now we're just cleaning it up and getting the material out there and simple activities for people to follow that are very safe, no risk of any kind of blackout material or anything like that.
Michael Frampton
Okay. Now, what about first thing in the morning routines, morning breathing? What do you personally do?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, always having a few minutes to just establish a nice, rhythmic, even breath. So it might be lying on my back and just being aware of my belly rising and falling as I breathe in and out so that I'm focusing my attention on that so that then, predominantly during the night of sleeping, you may have breathed erratically or snored or whatever, so you're stabilizing the correct CO2 balance within your blood through breathing in for five, breathe out for five, for about a three to five -minute period, and then doing some diaphragmatic exercises to really encourage that strength in that area and connection to the brain and stimulating the nervous system into more of a switched -on mode, and then some simple in -breath muscle stretching and strengthening exercises.
So that's just basically a lung pack where you're breathing in over a sequence of breaths to just activate the 10 in -breath muscles that we have and keeping the lungs functioning in its entirety so that when we go and do sport or go into the rest of the day, all those muscles have been switched on, warmed up, stretched and strengthened so that should you need to breathe heavy, they're ready to do so.
Michael Frampton
Cool, yeah, morning routines are important.
Nam Baldwin
And hydrating, obviously, most important thing. Yeah.
Michael Frampton
It's a good start to the day. Yeah, absolutely. Now, there's a little, on your website, there's a blog article on confidence. Just reading off your website, it says, when you engage in self -doubt, there is a contraction of smooth muscle in your stomach area. Could you expand on that a little bit more?
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, so when we go into any kind of mental challenge, there's a predominant nerve that will send signals through and down to your diaphragm called the vagus nerve. And when that's stimulated, it's doing something very simple. It's trying to get you to breathe a little bit more to help process whatever that you're going through and it could be self -doubt.
So if I go into self -doubt, my mind is ticking over, my brainwave pattern is increasing and for me to process what's going on, I need more oxygen. And the more oxygen content coming into my blood and therefore up to my brain, the easier it is for my brain to process information.
So if I breathe effectively, that smooth muscle that's contracting, which is the diaphragm predominantly, is now going into service and assisting me through the challenge. So if I go into stress and I'm going into doubt, good place to start is just to pause and have a few even rhythmic breaths.
And then in that moment, you're now shifting your attention to something that you can control and allowing the brain then to do its thing and help process whatever doubt you've gone into.
Michael Frampton
Interesting, okay, so it just comes back to rhythm again.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, and evenness, making it rhythmic and even.
Michael Frampton
Yeah, so I guess to kind of summarize what we've talked about so far, a good strategy for Surfing will be to, when they're sitting out the back, sit in a nice, tall, relaxed posture with an unfocused gaze, being aware of one's peripheral vision and relaxing their eyes and breathing rhythmically.
Nam Baldwin
And evenly, Yeah, well, low first, then high.
Michael Frampton
Yeah. And evenly and deeply as well.
Nam Baldwin
So getting that action where the belly is activating that region, ideally out to the sides, not letting your abdominal wall just flop. And then, yeah, that would be great, just for a few minutes.
Michael Frampton
Yep, okay, awesome. And if folks listening out there wanna learn more, then Nam mentioned an ebook that's coming out soon. But yeah, you're doing the BET training courses all around the country.
Yeah. And go and check out that website. And Nam, we're kind of running out of time, but before you go, I wanna ask you a couple of quickfire questions. What's your favorite surfboard at the moment?
Nam Baldwin
I've got a Chris Garrett. It's a fish. I just love his shapes. I just think Chris makes a great board. That would probably be my favorite at the moment.
Michael Frampton
Do you have a favorite Surfing movie or surf film?
Nam Baldwin
Good question. There's so many. There's many. A favorite when I was young was Big Wednesday. That was a cracker. Yep. I'll leave it at that.
Michael Frampton
Cool, do you have a favorite Surfing?
Nam Baldwin
Mick.
Michael Frampton
Mick, good choice. Nam, thank you so much for your time. Invaluable, loads of good tips on enjoying this podcast, probably worth multiple listens, considering that breathing is such an important topic.
Nam Baldwin
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you, Michael, for inviting me.
Michael Frampton
Awesome, so that website again is betraining .com. And if you just Google Nam Baldwin, it'll come up anyway. And hope to see you on one of those courses soon as well, Nam, next time you're in Sydney, I'm gonna jump on. Please Awesome, thank you.
Nam Baldwin
Do, yeah, that'd be great. Love you too.
Michael Frampton
So Thanks for tuning in to the Surfing Mastery podcast.
Nam Baldwin
Welcome.
Michael Frampton
Again, I'm your host, Michael Frampton. Make sure you subscribe so you can keep up to date with the latest interviews. Please share with your friends. Check us out on Facebook at Surf Mastery Surf. And if you're on iTunes, please go and give us a little rating, that'd be awesome. Until next time, keep Surfing.
15 Nam Baldwin - Breath Enhancement Training
41 min

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We interview the best surfers in the world and the people behind them, so surfers can learn ways to improve their own surfing. The podcast is targeted to open-minded surfers who want to improve and…

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