Podcast - SURF MASTERY

Still trying to surf hard while your body says otherwise? What if the real secret to surfing stronger with age isn't more power—but smarter recovery and movement?

In this conversation with renowned surf performance coach Rod Perez, we break down the truth about sustainable surf fitness. From mobility to mindset, Rod shares insights from decades of coaching elite athletes (including Joel Parkinson) and working with everyday surfers who want to feel good in the water again—not just grind in the gym.

• Learn how to bulletproof your knees, hips, and back with training strategies surfers over 35 actually need

• Discover why most “fit” surfers are missing the endurance and mobility they truly need for better surfing

• Understand how Japanese samurai philosophy can help you live—and surf—with more purpose, energy, and gratitude

Hit play now to learn how to extend your surfing years and unlock better sessions through smarter body and mind practices.

Follow Rod Pererz : Website:rodperez.com & Instagram: holisticprohealth
Follow  Michael John Frampton: Instagram: surf mastery & Website:https://surfmastery.com/.

Key Points

• Rodrigo Perez discussed working with Joel Parkinson and helping him transition to a different phase of life, emphasizing the importance of training, sleep, and health.

• Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of mobility and capacity in training, particularly for surfers, noting that many people lack these aspects in their fitness routines.

• Rodrigo Perez highlighted the benefits of recovery techniques such as ice baths and saunas, stressing that proper recovery is often neglected but crucial for preventing joint problems and osteoporosis.

• Rodrigo Perez discussed the use of advanced recovery techniques like stem cells and peptides, noting their effectiveness in helping clients recover from injuries.

• Rodrigo Perez shared insights on the common ailments among aging surfers, such as lower back problems and hip rotation issues, and the importance of sustainable training practices.

• Rodrigo Perez discussed his book 'The Art of Longevity,' inspired by his clients' back problems and his own experiences, aiming to provide a holistic guide for mind and body wellness.

• Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of basics like proper diet, exercise, and recovery over advanced supplements or genetic modifications for longevity.

• Rodrigo Perez discussed the influence of Japanese philosophy and traditions on his approach to health and wellness, highlighting the simplicity and discipline of the samurai lifestyle. 

Outline

Introduction and Background

• Michael Frampton introduced the Surf Mastery Podcast and mentioned a new website, surfmastery.com, with a free download of top five tips.

• Rodrigo Perez, the guest, has released a new book titled 'The Art of Longevity: Your Practical Guide to Total Mind and Body Wellness'.

• Rodrigo Perez is a professional coach and founder of Holistic Pro Health Performance, having worked with successful athletes.

• Joel Parkinson provided a quote about Rodrigo Perez's help in transitioning to future goals.

• Michael Frampton mentioned attending one of Rodrigo Perez's courses in 2016 and being impressed with their knowledge and presence.

Professional Collaborations and Retreats

• Rodrigo Perez and Michael Hintala presented together in California in 2019.

• Rodrigo Perez worked with Ricardo Christie to help him return to the tour.

• Rodrigo Perez is currently working with the new generation of surfers, including Canadian and Japanese surfers.

• Rodrigo Perez and Tom have been running retreats together, despite challenges during the COVID-19 pandemic and Tom's hip surgery.

Dealing with Knee Injuries and Osteoarthritis

• Michael Frampton discussed Tom's knee replacement and their shared experience with ACL reconstruction leading to osteoarthritis.

• Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of proper training, stabilization, and recovery to manage knee injuries and osteoarthritis.

• Rodrigo Perez highlighted the need for a balanced approach to training, including non-impact exercises, and the use of recovery methods like ice baths and saunas.

• Rodrigo Perez mentioned the use of advanced recovery techniques such as stem cells and peptides for some clients.

Training and Mobility for Surfers

• Rodrigo Perez discussed the importance of mobility and capacity in training for surfers, particularly for those looking to improve their technique and endurance.

• Rodrigo Perez defined mobility as the ability to move the body in different planes with strength, not just flexibility.

• Rodrigo Perez recommended increasing the number of reps in training to improve endurance and capacity.

• Rodrigo Perez noted that many surfers, especially those aged 35 to 60, seek help for injuries and pain, often due to overtraining and lack of proper recovery.

Case Study: Joel Parkinson

• Rodrigo Perez discussed working with Joel Parkinson, who had an MCL injury and needed to adjust his training approach.

• Joel Parkinson lost weight and regained his surfing potential, winning competitions after working with Rodrigo Perez.

• Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of educating surfers on sustainable training practices and maintaining a love for surfing.

Rodrigo Perez's Surfing Journey

• Rodrigo Perez started surfing in 1999, initially bodyboarding before transitioning to surfboards.

• Rodrigo Perez has been improving their surfing skills over the years, particularly with the help of Tom and other students.

• Rodrigo Perez enjoys learning about different surfboards and adapting their surfing style to various ocean conditions.

Inspiration Behind 'The Art of Longevity'

• Rodrigo Perez was inspired to write 'The Art of Longevity' by their mother's back problems and the prevalence of back issues among clients.

• The book aims to provide practical, science-backed tips for total mind and body wellness, drawing from Rodrigo Perez's 25 years of experience.

• Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of maintaining a healthy lifestyle, including proper training, nutrition, and mindset, to achieve longevity in surfing and life.

Samurai Philosophy and Lifestyle

• Rodrigo Perez discussed the influence of samurai philosophy on their approach to life and wellness.

• Rodrigo Perez highlighted the discipline, simplicity, and gratitude inherent in the samurai lifestyle.

• Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of maintaining a positive energy level, healthy habits, and a balanced approach to diet and exercise.

Book Chapter: 'Life of a Samurai'

• Rodrigo Perez chose the chapter 'Life of a Samurai' as the one to spread to the world, as it encapsulates the essence of the book.

• The chapter discusses the disciplined lifestyle of the samurai, including their approach to diet, meditation, and daily routines.

• Rodrigo Perez believes that adopting elements of the samurai lifestyle can lead to greater happiness and fulfillment.

Japanese Culture and Longevity

• Rodrigo Perez discussed the influence of Japanese culture on their understanding of longevity and wellness.

• Rodrigo Perez highlighted the traditional practices, social structures, and clean environment in Japan that contribute to longevity.

• Rodrigo Perez emphasized the importance of simple habits, such as early morning routines and daily exercise, in maintaining a healthy lifestyle.

Transcription

Michael Frampton
Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton. If you're a fan of the show and haven't subscribed yet, please do. One of the best ways you can help grow the show is to share an episode with a friend. I have released a new website, same address, surfmastery.com, and there is a free download for the top five tips from the show, so if you haven't done that, go ahead and do that. There'll be a link in the show notes, or just go to surfmastery.com and it's there on the front page. Today's guest is Rodrigo Perez. He's just released a new book, here it is here. If you're watching on YouTube you can see that. For those listening, it's called The Art of Longevity: Your Practical Guide to Total Mind and Body Wellness. And I'm gonna read from the back for a quick and dirty bio of Rod. Rodrigo Perez is a professional coach and founder of Holistic Pro Health Performance and has worked with some of the world's most successful athletes. The Art of Longevity draws on everything he's learned along his own journey with one aim: helping people live the lives they've imagined. And let me read, here's a good little quote from Joel Parkinson – I'm not sure if he's a current or former client of Rod’s. I'll read his quote that he put in the first thing you see in this book actually. “As a former pro surfer, training has always been an integral part of my career, and in this next stage of my life, Rod has helped me to transition to where I want to be for the future. I want to be ripping in my 60s.” Well, so do I. And exercising outside of surfing and looking after your sleep and your health and all that stuff is an important part of that. And sadly, there's a lot of... What I like about this book is it condenses it down into just simple, practical, science-backed tips that you can... yeah, just a quick and dirty—well, it's not that quick, it's actually pretty comprehensive, this book. And I actually did a course—gosh, it would have been back in 2016, I think, when I was up in the Gold Coast. I did one of Rod's courses and I was impressed with him and his knowledge and his presence as a coach as well. Anyway, without further ado, here is my conversation with Rodrigo Perez. Anyway, it's nice to see you again. I don't know if you remember, I came to one of your courses. Gosh, it would have been 12 years ago, maybe.

Rodrigo Perez
Yes, 12 years ago, and then I remember in 2019 as well I saw you in California. It was presented together with Michael Rintala.

Michael Frampton
Rintala, that's right. That's right. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a long time. Yeah, I remember that first time I met you and I did your course, Ricardo Christie came in and did a little talk. I think you were working with him at the time.

Rodrigo Perez
Yeah. Yeah, we were working to make him come back to the tour and he made it back that year. That's right. So we've been working together at that time. We were working together for two years—persistence and changes in mindset and vision and beliefs, like things that he wasn't doing and stuff. Things that he was rejecting to do but ended up doing. And in some comps he didn't want to go for, 3,000 ones, and then he went to one of them and he won, and that's what made him, like, get back.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And you've worked with a lot of pros over the years.

Rodrigo Perez
Yes. I'm pretty grateful for that. And even being... it's interesting because even now, I'm still working with the new generation. It's very interesting now, being working with a Canadian girl, Erin, being working with the new Japanese generation. They've been surfing amazing. TC said hello to you.

Michael Frampton
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I see you've been doing some—well, last time I spoke with Tom, he said that you guys have been running retreats together.

Rodrigo Perez
Yeah, so I was on the phone maybe an hour and a half ago and then we chatted and he's got a busy road. I said I'm gonna jump on the Loom with Michael and he said hello to Michael. Yeah, we've been doing a lot of stuff together. We're building now, building something new for everyone. It's been good. Like, I think we just started at the wrong time and a good time because it was straight away during COVID. Yeah, had a lot of competitions in 2020, and in 2021 it was too hard to run the retreats. We still pushed, we had a few retreats—jump the fence to do the retreats, isolate, don't let people know—but yeah, it was cool. And he had a couple of injuries as well. We had to stop—like last year, we had to stop for six, seven months because he had a hip surgery. We've been working a lot on his rehabilitation. He's getting back, and he's getting back to the water, been surfing better now, and starting to connect everything back. And yeah, this year was great. Looking forward to start to push a bit more.

Michael Frampton
Cool. Yeah, actually recently Tom had his knee replacement. Well, you know Tom's story about his knee. I'll run through it quickly. He had ACL reconstruction back when he was 16, and that basically predisposes you to osteoarthritis later on in life. And a similar thing happened to me. I had my ACL reconstruction when I was 21, and now, just late last year, I went in and—one day my knee just blew up and I thought, no, what? And I hadn't done anything to it. Anyway, I went in to see the specialist and now it's bone on bone now, and sadly... yeah. So I'm going through that at the moment. But that leads me into the question. I think there's a lot of surfers that maybe they haven't had ACL knee surgery, but surfing is notoriously hard on the knees. And osteoarthritis is a common... it's a common thing amongst surfers. How do you approach dealing with that particular injury?

Rodrigo Perez
Well, like, a lot of stuff that can come in behind the structure. I know when we talk about our age, or when you are 20 years old, and how much training you've done at the time—or the right training—the stabilization. A lot of people focus too much on compounding exercises all the time: squats, deadlifts, bench presses, and deep pulls. And at the end of the day, like, we needed a lot of other things behind. And then when approaching situations like that, like present, or you talk about Tom and your situation—his hips got a lot of problems because his knees now, he's ended up... So he had a full tear, and then glute med, and he had a full tear, like pretty much the tendon of the gluteal medius pulled out of the bone. So he had to reattach and stitch up the gluteus. So things like that—for me it's just one comment after the other—because he didn’t have, he doesn’t have much stability on the right knee where the process is there now, and then probably that’s the main goal and keep it constant training. Now unfortunately, like as a type of one, you keep frothing for life, but if you mess up your training—I know—you have to think. So a surfer's pumping whole week, and you get this mojo and a surfer’s every day. You forget about the training. You're just doing a little bit of stretch to recover. And you forget about the activation and the strength area. And that's probably—if you let go—sometimes you let go for three weeks, four weeks. And you know it's hard to gain strength. Very easy to lose. The body can switch on pretty quick. No. So situations like that, we definitely need to see. Do you have any history on your ankle? Same side?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, a little bit.

Rodrigo Perez
Yeah, so that usually is like that. Whoever has ACL, they have a lot of history on the ankle on the same side, and then it really can bring up to the hip. So it's something we have to work our way around. What helps it? The best thing we can do is just eat well. Keep the training up. No, and don't forget about the recovery. We never spoke about—like no one talks about recovery—but recovery is a big thing today. Ice baths, saunas, any kind of thing where you can recover. And I think that's the main part, because we have the tendency to hit. And then we hit 85%, 90%, and then we usually recover only 10%. So all these things can hit pretty hard, like osteoporosis and joint problems, because we don't recover enough.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned... Doing the non-impact stuff was big for me. Basically, I'm lucky enough—I know after I had met you and Rintala back in Huntington Beach, I ended up doing the DNS courses. And last year when I was having trouble with my knee, it was simply because I wasn't—I wasn't keeping up with my training. I think that's all it was. And now I'm back into doing those stabilization exercises. And back on good recovery protocols. And now it's—obviously the cartilage doesn't grow back, but there is scar tissue that grows over the bone. And as long as you don't do too many hours on that scar tissue, you can... You can keep them from—.

Rodrigo Perez
Inflammation down. And unfortunately, it's like that when you get in that stage. It's going to leave you with it, but you have to be smart. No, nothing will change there. You just have to be smart to get it better. But like people are using stem cells today now, so they're using peptides around there as well to help with the recovery. It's not wrong—it's another tool we can use. Now, some people can do it very well. I have a couple of clients—they've done it on the knee, they've done it on the big toes, they've done the spine. They're feeling amazing. Shani Doran has done it on the whole body, and in his reports, he's very good. The other day, I exchanged a text with him asking, and yeah, he's feeling really good. So it's just the tools we put in together. Now, even I've been chatting with Kelly. I'm probably catching up with him this week to check out his hip. But as I remember, maybe it's the same. He put his block in J-Bay. So here we go, we want to put everything together. And I remember when he broke or hurt his foot—we met each other in France. I was in France and I mentioned to him straight away, have you been doing some mobility work? Have you been doing some single leg work or not? He just—he loves yoga, he loves to be stretched. Now, Kelly is a big believer in opening a lot of length, being very open. I'm agree with that—as a surfer, we need these lengths to be open. We need to reach more, we need to get a better range, but we need nice toned mass as well. Or even as we get older, we need just tonification. Like, we need big quads, we need a big gluteus, it's like that. That's pretty much what I told Tom the other day. I said, "Tom, you know what? You're gonna have to come back to how you used to be 10, 15 years ago. Now, bulking up." "Really, Rod?" "Yeah, you need bulking up." Now, bulking up in the right way. Switch on all the joints, get more muscles around, because that's the problem—when we hit our 50s, with the tendency of hormone levels dropping, it's very hard to maintain the muscle density around the bone. So we need to work in that way. We push a little bit on the activation, but bring a little bit of hypertrophy together. Because otherwise, definitely as we get older, we don't have to be heavier—the light is better—but we need nice toned muscles around, be bulky.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And is that just through your standard, you know, squats, things like that, but obviously you want to do them nice and slow and controlled, especially for that age group. Yeah. Yeah.

Rodrigo Perez
So, work on an eccentric phase. So, the negative phase—slow control. Now, when we talk about Mike Rintala, we talk about DNS. We have the motor control—work on the motor control, make sure we have all the joint centration so that the body can move better. And that’s the main part. And beside that, you can combine—that’s where we combine all the training together. Now you can have a bit of hypertrophy together with mobility work and neuromuscular work. I know a lot of people don’t do it. A lot of people have tendencies to just do one thing or just do other things. And sometimes it has to mix and have the experience—if you know, or know someone who knows, can advise you how to do it. But putting things together is the best.

Michael Frampton
So you've worked with a lot of surfers at all levels, right? So you obviously work with a handful of pros—some we've already mentioned—but you're serving the general public and around your area on the Gold Coast, correct?

Rodrigo Perez
Yes.

Michael Frampton
Coolangatta. Yeah. So what's—and I know that you work with other athletes as well—but let's... what's... is there... what is it specifically that non-pro surfers need more than others?

Rodrigo Perez
They need to be in the water more. If they want to improve, therapy—no, that's no doubt. Technique—you develop when you practice.

Michael Frampton
What about in terms of your area of expertise, like training and stuff? The body—training.

Rodrigo Perez
Definitely, a big thing is what I find—the majority of people—mobility is a big one. So, movement patterns, too, need a lot of improvement. That’s a long time when you're doing a workshop, even with the years watching everyone doing the movements developed. And then, to improve the myofascia, to improve the hip mobility, to improve ankle mobility—it’s a big one. Our sole capacity—that’s, I think, a lot of people are very weak. They lift heavy weights, they have training, but they don't have capacity. That's when we talk about the endurance muscle. And that’s the main muscle we need for surfing. For sure, we need strength, we need the activation for the core, but capacity is pretty poor. So, movement development and capacity are the big ones.

Michael Frampton
Anyway, how do you define mobility?

Rodrigo Perez
How I define mobility? Mobility for me is the body can move in different planes and you get stronger in different planes. People have the tendency to be stretched, but mobility is not a stretch. So mobility, when you're training your body, you're able to develop a better range of motion of your joints. But it's not only developing a better range of motion—it's improving your strength in different areas. Like, simple thing: can you squat deeper? Can you hold your squat deeper there? Are you strong in the position? No, it doesn't matter if you improve so much more mobility, but you're not strong in the position because you don't keep repeating there. So, yeah, that defines mobility: you strengthen your body in different planes—the planes you’ve never been, or your body has never been. Because that's the thing—like a lot of beginners or intermediate surfers—like when we talk about it, talk about bottom turn—they cannot squat deep, they cannot drop as low because the mechanism, when the brain doesn’t land—there’s lack of mobility or lack of capacity to be able to drop a bit more.

Michael Frampton
So mobility isn't just about flexibility. It's about functional range of motion.

Rodrigo Perez
Yes.

Michael Frampton
Okay. And when you say capacity—let's say you've got someone who does a little bit of training, they do a little bit of stretching, and they do a little bit of the standard stuff in the gym. They're probably doing three sets, 10 to 12 reps. Is that enough to increase capacity?

Rodrigo Perez
Should do a little bit more. Depending on which movement, depending what they are like.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. So, is there a range—like looking to 12 reps to up to 15 reps?

Rodrigo Perez
Yeah, increase their reps. That will help. So when we talk about capacity, that’s when we hit more endurance phase. And that’s what we’re looking to. Because sometimes 10–12 reps—we're going for adaptation. Now, you need to pass the adaptation. That’s why we talk about 15 reps, sometimes 20 reps. That’s when the endurance muscles start to activate more.

Michael Frampton
With the general population of surfers in your area—once they get a bit older and they’re injured and they’re in pain—I’m assuming that’s usually when things... that’s usually when people seek help. What are the most common ailments that demographic is coming to you with? The aging surfer?

Rodrigo Perez
Look, it’s very interesting because we have the classes and the variation of the classes is between 17 to up to 35 years old—majority males. I think the majority of males, they have a lot of problems or they are beginner to intermediate surfers—they want to improve, be able to paddle better, they have to understand how to do the pop-up, how the body flows inside. When I'm talking about the private—my private general—is between, say, 35 to up to 60 years old. That’s the age coming up. Like, I have Joel Parkinson, who works with me full time. He has been with me since July last year. And Joel is in this phase. He had an MCL injury last year—March last year. We’d say no full tear—apparently, he had just a couple little lines of the ligament that was holding there—no surgery. But we needed to work on the right way because Joel was doing so much high-intensity training. Group classes sometimes with friends. And then, his training during the tour was a lot of endurance. You can see a lot of athletes being over-fatigued all the time. And as you get older, injuries start to knock on the door more and more. So for Joel, it was just about bringing him back to the water. And bringing him back to the water was healing his MCL—making sure he’s losing weight as well. So for them, as a retirement time, giving up everything, slowing down surfing, or getting a bit disappointed because of the injury, they have to bring back the full potential again. That’s what happens with the majority of them. Not even just talking about Joel, but the other people who come to see me—because they’re into the business so much, they're very wealthy, very successful in business—developers, construction company—but they cannot bend anymore. They have lower back problems, shoulder problems, very tired spine. The spine doesn’t move properly anymore. And when we talk about hip rotation, they can't even do a proper external rotation. So that’s the main part we work on. I try to approach all these areas and make sure all the training they’re doing has a lot of sustainability behind it. Like Joel—he lost probably nearly 12 kilos from August to now. Now he's a full potential surfer again. He’s done, I think, three finals comps in the last seven months and won the comps—Maldives, he won. He had three comps—he won all three. Here back in Gold Coast—Single Fin—he got second. And here, I think the board riders competition—he got second. So, he’s back into it now. He’s very glad he’s been on the program and the amount of weight he lost, and he’s pretty much got back to the same weight he used to compete in before. We try to educate students—all everyone’s in that age between 35, 38 to 55, 60. We lost so much—they need to get very well educated again. Between the way they treat themselves, the way they should put priorities into their routine to keep being able to surf for life. And that’s what people end up saying now. Like, “I have my bank full of money. I’ve done my life.” But no, you haven’t. If you let that go, you lose the most important thing for you—surfing. A few of them are even depressed because even if they go for paddling, they know how to surf, but they cannot last long. Probably 30 minutes in the water, an hour.

Michael Frampton
Joel is one of my favorite surfers. So smooth and stylish.

Rodrigo Perez
Beautiful. Love the carves.

Michael Frampton
His surfing style—being very smooth, very graceful, and controlled. Do you see similarities in the way that he moves in the gym?

Rodrigo Perez
He's getting better, let's say. Not really, because I think he used to be very educated on fast pace of training. I'm thinking not only him, but I believe like Mick and the other ones. At the time, the trainers were pushing very high intensity. They had to be tough with the pain. That's pretty much what they were putting into it—getting tough with the pain—but he's gotten way better now. He's doing very well with slow. He understands motor control now. So we needed a year together. And yeah. But I can see why he's so smooth—because he's a froth master. He loves surf so much. He loves the lines, he loves the wave. When he's surfing, he just... we talk a hundred percent about surfing now. What's with the surfboard and how they move, the stability about it. So Joel didn't have much body control, all right? So now he has a lot. And that was a big problem—why his injury, the body started breaking. You know—lower back, knee, back and all that stuff. And he even turned to me and said, "Rod, wow. Why didn't I know this when I was competing?" So he said, "Well, it would have been much better than what I’ve done the way you push me here." But it's everything divided. Whatever we're doing there, it's all divided by what they need. And we should be doing a little bit of high intensity—one and a half times a week—to get the heart rate up, because that's part of longevity. Now, it's not just about correcting—it's about connecting. We have the cardiovascular happening, we have the high intensity, one and a half times, everything very well balanced.

Michael Frampton
When did you start surfing?

Rodrigo Perez
It's a pretty funny story. I started surfing in 1999—five or six? But I was just bodyboarding. I never wanted to... like, I started surfboarding, I had an accident, I gave up. I started bodyboarding and I stuck a lot with bodyboarding. I moved to Australia, I was bodyboarding here. I loved big waves, big barrels. Early on, when it was big, it was good. Then in 2005–06, I decided to move down here in Coolangatta and surf the banks. And probably 2007–08, I sold the bodyboards—too boring to surf the points—I really wanted to surf on the surfboard. So I started surfing with a longboard in 2008, cruising, learning, improving. Probably by 2010–11, I decided to give up the longboard. But the longboard was probably an 8-footer, maybe like a mid-length. At that time we called it a longboard—today we call it a mid-length. Now it's 6'6", 8-footer. At the time, well, that's a small longboard, that's a longboard—but now everyone's calling it a mid-length board. And then from there, I said, "You know what? I don't want these boards anymore," and I switched it up. Pretty much in love with twin fins now—that's what I ride most of the time. Wherever I'm going, I try to learn so much about twin fins. And then probably since 2018, I've been hanging a lot with Tom, so I've been learning a lot about boards, how to put it together. Things change really—the ocean, you know—and plus I think hanging with my own students because I had different students, they are surf coaches—like Jay Bottle. Now, even did a lot of stuff with Brad Gerlach, and getting a little bit of pieces with each other. Now I understand timing and stance, reading, where to sit. And I think I'm very happy with my surf for probably the last three years. So much improvement. And then it’s the interest. I think it was yesterday or two days ago, I said, "Wow, I'm getting older, I'm getting better." Awesome. And that's the cool thing—I'm getting better fast, I'm slowly improving on the board, choosing for which ocean it is. Even like this morning, I did some training. I just wanted to drive around to check out how to surf. I knew it was small, but I saw D'bah. D'bah was pumping, but low tide. I said, "I'm not going to go." Then I saw a friend—"Let’s go quick." But I said, "I don't have a board. I just have a mid-length." I said, "You know what? Let’s go mid-length." So it was another lesson—how the mid-length could work in a hollow wave. Have to take off faster, to put it down inside the barrel—how they could support that. And I found out—yeah, it's not a board for this. Not in a beach break. Could be in a point break—big, hollow—like Greenmount, Snapper, Rainbow—it’d work very well. But yeah. It's fun. So I think it's a big Bible. As you know, surf is always a big Bible. We always have to be open to learning every single day. And every time I see Tom, I say, "Tom, how about this board? What do you think about this board? Have you tried that one?" And he said, "No, I tried this one. You’re into this board?" "Okay." So yeah.

Michael Frampton
So getting better as you age—that's good to hear. Now, you've written a book called The Art of Longevity. What inspired you to write that?

Rodrigo Perez
Everything. No, like big explanation for sure. My mom—why she didn’t have much information, the way she ended up... My back problems I had before, and then how many people have back problems. A lot of my clients—surfers—had back problems. How many? Like today, probably every 100 people, 90 people have bulging discs in the back. And they don't know how to deal, or they’re just taking Panadol and thinking they're fine—but no, it's not fine. And that’s a restriction you’re going to have there for life. And if you let it go, it gets very tight and gets worse. I think that's all the inspiration—a lot of interest together with Tom as well. His journey through his injuries, helping him out as well—with all his shoulder, hip, and knee on this journey together. And seeing how a lot of people are lost. A lot of people are lost—where are they going to? And sometimes it has to be simple. You know, the formula is at the front, but I know it’s hard to do it. And then at the end of the day, if you don’t do it, no one’s going to do it for you. You're just going to make it worse. And it’s the dream coming together—because that was my goal, my dream—to have my own book one day. The idea was, say, "Well, when I pass my 50s, I will have enough knowledge and do it." But the opportunity came earlier. And then they turned to me and said—the publisher—"Would there be interest? Would you?" And I said, "Wow." To put your workshops—because the workshops is what it’s all about. That’s what me and Tom are driving with the workshops now. And I said, "Yeah, I’m keen to do it. I’m ready." Because I have the notes, I have the subject, I have the titles. I said, "Yeah, let me just put the content and let’s do it. I’m happy." So I think my clientele and my 25 years of experience working with people—this was the big experience to see what did happen. And as you mentioned, not working with the normal clients, but working with the athletes. Now, in the many years when I was working with the athletes—everyone should have this plan. Because at the end of the day, we all are athletes. We’re athletes for life. We’re dealing with stress. We get up in the morning, we have to look after the kids, we have to go to work, we need to bring money home, and we smash the body. At the end of the day, if you have time, you can go for a surf or you can go for training. But if you don't do it properly and don't have enough energy, you start to break. And as humans, a lot of people have this mentality—they say, "I'm getting older, I don't need to surf anymore. I'm getting older, I deserve to have a beer belly. I made my life, it's gone, I don't surf anymore." That’s what I hear sometimes. I say, "Nah. No way. You should be frothing. You should be happy all the time." And then I know a lot of people probably sometimes end up putting the board in the sun and doing parties with friends and drinking—they think they are happy. But at the end of the day, it’s just when they go for the surf trip, the swell is up—even if the swell is up, not even big, like two, three foot on the points—they're not able to catch anything. "Yeah, I don’t want this anymore. No, I’m too old for that." I say, "How old are you?" "I’m 40." I say, "What? Man, I’m 47. My surf’s getting better. I’m still looking for waves I want to go." Definitely, probably like—we don’t need to put ourselves on a big, very hollow, dangerous wave if we don't have high skills for those types of waves. But life is beautiful. You should do it. So that’s communication.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I mean, Skip Frye is still surfing every day and he’s in his 80s. So yeah, it's certainly possible. I mean, and obviously, you know, Kelly Slater keeps pushing the boundaries of what’s possible—into your 50s now.

Rodrigo Perez
And he's going to be there. And then what to do with Kelly—but that’s the big cool thing about Kelly. He really put the seeds in from the beginning. The way he treated his whole life, how he looks after himself. And definitely his mindset was strong. And one thing I learned with Tom—and probably coming from Kelly as well—it’s like Tom says, "I don’t hang with the olds. I love to hang with the young. The old ones just whinge all the time." So, keep your mind fresh and always open to learning anything—learning to sing, learning to play a guitar, play piano, read books. A lot of people don’t even read a book. So things like that improve—from the brain to the whole body. And that’s, I think, for me what it was about. All the doctors—what they talk about longevity these days—they're going too much technical. And a lot of surfers, a lot of us, don’t understand the technical part. They read, they say, "Pretty cool, I read this book from this doctor, that doctor—they talk about this path." What does that mean? So the goal was just bringing the book as simple and understandable. What people can take for life and keep it on top of the table for everyday—have a checkpoint and a good session of training as well. If they fall on a good session of cardio, good morning routine, or good night routine—seeing how they can train themselves. So it was a dream come true. And a terrific one for me—it was kind of like getting the world title.

Michael Frampton
You know, I love the title. And I’ve had a good flick through the book and it’s very holistic. And it’s just sort of a bit of everything, and this... just what you need to know sort of thing. I guess—is it the type of book you wish you had when you were 20? Is that what it is?

Rodrigo Perez
Yeah. Yeah. And for the older points as well, you know—like for everyone—you still can do a lot of stuff now. And that was the goal: open for everyone, and for females as well. Sometimes we talk a lot about purpose, but we cannot forget about the surfing girls. They are very open. They want to learn. They are more into the body than the males. But the surfer female community is growing. And a lot of them, they want to be there surfing, they want to be able to paddle better, to take more waves—but missing a little bit more motivation. For them, may have someone to be there and give them a hand—"Hey, let's go."

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, and you're right about the... there's a lot going on in the longevity world with people, you know, doing all sorts of genetic modification and all the fancy supplements and stuff. But really, none of that stuff does anything unless you have the basics right anyway.

Rodrigo Perez
That's true. I think the other day I put it on my Instagram and said to people, "Doesn't matter if you take any supplements—you can take peptides, you can take whatever you want—but if somebody didn’t do the work behind there, nothing's going to happen." Now, is it something like Panadol? Does it matter what you're doing, or if you want pain relief, or you're taking these peptides to heal your shoulder? Yeah, but if you're not doing the physio, if you're not doing the exercise—whatever it is—if you're not going to do a soft tissue release or doing some manipulation or doing a sauna... nah, doesn't help. Yeah, it's a bit complex. And then, like, you probably have massive experience because you lived in the US for a long time. And then you're back in New Zealand now. And we’re pretty much—we’re very special here because we’re in a special country: New Zealand, Australia. We can still breathe pure air, we can drive without too much traffic, we can put ourselves close to nature. It's totally different from how it’s going, probably, in California, LA, and all that area.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. It's very different here. I do miss the weather in California, though.

Rodrigo Perez
Okay. Well, you need to see it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, and where you are has amazing weather too as well.

Rodrigo Perez
Yeah, it is. I love this time of year. People say to me April, May, June are the three best months here on the East Coast—between, I would say, Gold Coast, even down Crescent Head. Even a bit colder down there, but I think it's the best time to surf: good waves, offshore all the time. It’s not too hot. Yeah, it’s a good environment—not many school holidays or many competitions. Well, we have the contest right now, it's been pretty busy around, but it's pretty fun.

Michael Frampton
Now, if you could only choose one chapter of your book to spread to the world, which chapter would that be and why?

Rodrigo Perez
Wow, there’s so many, but probably let's go with The Life of a Samurai. Probably that’s the last chapter. It's a little bit of a digestion of the other chapters, but people can understand a little bit more. That's the big one. I think it’s samurai life—understanding how they take their life, how Japanese life takes their own life. How they’re very disciplined in what they do, the way they eat, they have time for meditation, how simple life is for them. But they're still happy. They still smile and are happy. They are grateful. And that’s probably what we miss. As humans, we always want more. We get cranky and... that’s not going to take you anywhere. And when I read the last chapter, when they sent the book to me, I got very emotional. I even was talking to the editor. He sent it to me and I said, "Man, thank you. That made me emotional." And that's what I want to see. Interesting. The other chapters are very interesting. Yeah. Very interesting.

Michael Frampton
When did you first start learning about the samurai?

Rodrigo Perez
Long time ago. I'm a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu, so I've done Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for a long time. And it was what got me into learning more about Japanese philosophy. That’s something—I’m talking about probably when I was 16, 17, and started to do exercise science at university. That made me really understand learning movement and getting into the culture. Because they are probably the oldest culture we have in the world. So... and I believe we have so much to learn from them. So much. Japan is... busy—a lot of people there—but they still maintain good food, they still use unmodified seeds, no modified grains. They still keep on that. And if you look into Japanese technology, they are very successful. They’re probably one of the smartest populations we have in the world. Probably because they still keep the same tradition. Even generation by generation, they pass the same tradition they’ve had for many years. Let's talk about Okinawa—how they put Okinawa on the blue zone—how they take care of themselves. I think a lot of people bought into the diet because it’s a big fight out there: plant-based is better, carnivore is better, paleo is better—they’re fighting too much. And the reality is it's not only the diet. Everything around them—they have tradition, they have a lot of people involved, they have the social parts as they get older. They don’t have much pollution. They have a clean ocean around them. They’re dancing, they exercise every day, they get up early, they do meditation, they go for a walk, and they come back. So it’s simple things. Simple things we have to practice. And a lot of people don’t do it. You know, like simply get up in the morning—just have a cup of water, two cups of water. People just get up—straight to the toilet, short black straight away. And that’s just—it’s a little habit. You can just turn that around. Short black, get a newspaper, what do you like to do? I get up, I get my newspaper, and I get my short black. I say, no, that’s cool. How about you stand, you read the paper, you just go for a nice walk, come back, and just put yourself—relax. And afterward, sit and have a cup of coffee. Same thing—change everything around. Change your smile, change your day, your energy. People don’t understand how much you have to change—not only the environment, the diet—but it’s your energy level. How you talk to people, how you smile during the day, how you put your energy out—showing your brightness out there. And that’s coming for everyone. If the people are cranky, in a bad mood every day—it’s probably because they’re not sleeping. But every night, they have one or two glasses of alcohol and they go to sleep. They’re not sleeping—they’re drunk. But sometimes, they don’t have the best sleep and they get up feeling like crap. And that’s it. It's just—change. Clean up. And that’s—I think—the old philosophers have so much to teach us. Yep, I love it. And that’s the art form.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I love that. And your book certainly encompasses all of that. Thank you for writing it. I think it's got a little bit of everything. You talk about breathing, you talk about sleep, you talk about recovery, you talk about diet. And then there’s a comprehensive training program with really good images—simple black and white images where you can clearly see good ways of moving your body. I think it’s a great book. You've done an outstanding job. Congratulations on it. And there will be links—there will be links to where you can purchase this book in the show notes, as well as to Rod’s website. If you're in the Gold Coast, you can go and see him, or you can check out some of his retreats that he's doing with Tom and everything else that Rod’s got going on on his website there. Links in the show notes. Rod, thank you so much for your time today.

Rodrigo Perez
Michael, thanks so much. Thanks for having me on your podcast. It's a big pleasure. And thanks for a long time—we’ve been chatting a long time—last time with you in California. And yeah, it’s good to know your journey as well, like you’re moving back, now looking after kids. Well done, man. Now you're probably in a new challenge and journey for you. But thank you, thanks for your time—really appreciate you hearing all the thoughts about the book.

Michael Frampton
All right. Awesome. Thanks, Rod. Easy as that, man.

Rodrigo Perez
It was easy. Good chat.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Sweet. Thanks for doing it, man. When does it come out? Is it the 14th of March, is it?

Rodrigo Perez
14th of...

Michael Frampton
May. 14th of May, sorry. Yeah, we’re in May. Okay. Yep. Now, your publicist—is it Anna Tidswell, is that her name?

Rodrigo Perez
A publisher? Yes. She’s the girl.

Michael Frampton
She’s been in touch. Yeah, we’ll publish this episode after the book comes out and we’ll make sure we have all the links and stuff to it.

Rodrigo Perez
Sweet. Thank you. How's life going for you?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, man, it’s okay. It’s busy, man. Mostly just, you know, raising my kids.

Rodrigo Perez
How old are they now?

Michael Frampton
Eight, nine, and twelve.

Rodrigo Perez
You have three. I thought you had two. No—you have boys?

Michael Frampton
Three. Three boys.

Rodrigo Perez
That's good. They fight each other.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, there's plenty of that. But they're good. They're good kids, they're very active. And we spend a lot of time outdoors. We were surfing throughout the summer, and in winter, they're into football. And yeah, keep them busy. That's...

Rodrigo Perez
Good. Yeah. That's part, no? This journey. Probably in the end, they're going to be your best friends. Yeah. When they get 16, 18... I have a client similar to you, but he's raising two kids, lost his wife too—Paulie Malber. You know his past. His first kid just turned 18, so he's out of school. And the second one just got into high school. Yeah. No, I think... dang, yeah. Something like that, yeah. That's good. Good to hear. And that's it. Keep stronger, man. Keep frothing. They love surfing. Surf with them.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. Life is good, man. Can't complain.

Rodrigo Perez
That's cool. But you're from Northern Beaches?

Michael Frampton
No, I lived there for a while. That's when I met Tom. I'm from New Zealand. I lived in Avalon for four years. Miss that place. Have you been to Avalon?

Rodrigo Perez
Yeah. I always stay with Tom when I'm going down—I stay with him around there.

Michael Frampton
Tom.

Rodrigo Perez
Yeah. I'm coming down next weekend. I'm driving down. I'm going to stay with him probably one week.

Michael Frampton
Nice. It's paradise there, man.

Rodrigo Perez
I told him Avalon is pretty unique because it's just the community there and everything's happening there. It's awesome. Yeah, Avalon and Narrabeen—it's this true gold spot. It's a pretty cool place, world-class.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, and Little Avalon is one of my favorite waves.

Rodrigo Perez
Yeah. The right one in front of the cliff there?

Michael Frampton
The right, yeah.

Rodrigo Perez
I never saw it break. Well, I saw photos—Tom sent me some when it’s breaking—but I'm always here and never saw it in person. Maybe this storm—I’ll be there for a little bit longer. But yeah, not yet.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. It's a little bit of an intimidating wave, but it's actually covered in congee, like real soft seaweed. So it looks gnarly, but it's not as bad as you think. I think that keeps a lot of people away from it.

Rodrigo Perez
Well, Tom sent the photos when it was like 15 feet. He’s taking off—balanced by himself, or him and his brother.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah. It gets big there. I've never surfed it when it's huge there, but it actually holds small waves there as well—just quietly. Okay. Yep. Yeah.

Rodrigo Perez
I heard about it. Hopefully, I can see it this time. I met Nick. I heard about him, but I met him just a while ago when I was traveling with Ido Portal.

Michael Frampton
No. And have you met Nick?

Rodrigo Perez
Yeah, he's come along to do one of his workshops.

Michael Frampton
Cool. Yeah, I just interviewed Nick for the podcast a couple of weeks ago, actually. Yeah, he was trained by Paul Chek a lot, so he's very much...

Rodrigo Perez
Yeah, and actually that's because I was trained by Paul. But I come from a generation before him. I think he's younger than us. How old is he, 35?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I think he is a bit younger than us, yeah.

Rodrigo Perez
Yes, I'm 47 now. So, I’ve been studying Paul Chek since 2004 or 2005. I started studying in London. I was living here three years, in London for one year. Yeah, back here. And I did a lot with Paul when he was still traveling. So at that time, he was still doing some workshops—traveling to Australia. So I did a lot of courses with him and Mark Buckley. And I worked a lot of times with Jane Carton. So Jane Carton was—she's Chek Level Three or Four. She pretty much helped Mick come back when he had the injury behind the bone.

Michael Frampton
2007. That's right. That's right. Yep. Yeah.

Rodrigo Perez
At that time, I was working for her, and I was doing inventory. Well, yeah. So that's what always started my journey into surf—because of my job. Taylor Knox. A lot of the other guys at that time. And then we ended up splitting because I wanted to move down to Coolangatta and Jane was up north. I said I didn't want to go north and wanted to start my own thing down here. You too, I've got two things to do it. And yeah—thank you. Thanks for that—published.

Michael Frampton
Cool. All right, man. It's just coming up on the hour, so I better let you go. Sweet, man. I'll let you know when it's... yeah. Sweet. Thanks, man. See ya. Bye.

99 How to Surf Stronger as You Grow Older with Rod Perez (Holistic Pro Health)

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

Are you riding the right surfboard—or just trying to impress people in the parking lot?

In this episode, Matt Parker of Album Surf dismantles the myth that high-performance shortboards are the gold standard for all surfers. From soft tops to asymmetrical shapes, Matt explains how the right board isn’t about status—it’s about unlocking joy, freedom, and better surfing.

• Learn why board variety helps you read waves better and accelerate your skill

• Discover how pro surfers are ditching shortboards for more playful, experimental shapes

• Get Matt’s exact 3-board travel quiver and his unconventional advice on picking boards for max fun

Listen now to hear why breaking surfing rules might be the smartest move for your stoke and your surf progression.

Follow Matt Parker:

• Instagram: @albumsurf

• Linkedin: matt-parker-7877a17

• Website: albumsurf.com

Don’t forget to visit our new website for a free PDF download outlining Michael’s top five insights from the show, and reach out if you know anyone at YouTube to help resolve access issues!

Enjoy the episode and happy surfing!

Key Points

• Matt Parker discusses the significance of personal enjoyment in surfing over seeking approval from others, emphasizing the solitary nature of the sport.

• Matt shares his experience transitioning from making surfboards as a hobby to establishing Album Surf as a successful business, driven by demand and innovation.

• The misconception that high-performance shortboards are the only legitimate boards for serious surfing is debunked, highlighting the value of alternative designs.

• Matt describes the evolution of his relationship with surfing, noting increased enjoyment and appreciation for the sport as he ages.

• Matt Parker reveals his preferred three surfboards for travel, showcasing a fish, a big board, and an asymmetrical performance board.

• Matt discusses the unique features and benefits of Album Surf's soft tops, distinguishing them from competitors by their design details and manufacturing process.

• Matt Parker's best surf advice is to choose a board based on personal enjoyment rather than seeking approval, while his worst advice involves unnecessary restrictions on board choice. 

Outline

Surfing Motivations and Social Status

• Matt Parker discusses the idea that some people pursue surfing for social status rather than the actual experience of surfing.

• Parker believes that focusing on approval from others is short-term thinking and leads to dissatisfaction.

• Surfing is described as a solitary pursuit where the individual experiences the wave and the moment.

Surf Mastery Podcast and New Website

• Michael Frampton introduces the Surf Mastery Podcast and mentions a new website with a free PDF download of top 5 insights from the show.

• The website features insights from the last 8 years of improving surfing skills.

Matt Parker and Album Surf

• Matt Parker is introduced as a guest from Album Surf, a large surfboard company specializing in various types of boards.

• Parker started shaping surfboards in 2001 and emphasizes the blending of curves and interaction with water in surfboard design.

• A quote from Parker's website highlights the idea that there shouldn't be rules about what a surfboard looks like.

Living in New Zealand vs. California

• Michael Frampton discusses living in New Zealand, specifically Hawke's Bay on the east coast of the North Island.

• Frampton mentions the average surf conditions in the area and the need to drive for better waves.

• Matt Parker compares the weather and surf conditions in Southern California to those in New Zealand.

Surfboards and Variety

• Matt Parker and Michael Frampton discuss the benefits of using different types of surfboards.

• Parker mentions that he rarely rides the same board two days in a row and enjoys the discovery process of each new board.

• Frampton shares his experience with an 11-foot Josh Hall board, which taught him about reading waves and being present.

Professional Surfers and Board Choices

• Michael Frampton notes that many professional surfers, when not competing, choose to ride different types of boards rather than high-performance shortboards.

• Matt Parker agrees and provides examples of surfers like Josh Kerr who prefer alternative boards.

• Parker believes that high-performance shortboards direct surfers to a specific type of surfing, whereas alternative boards offer more freedom and fun.

Car Racing Analogy for Surfboards

• Michael Frampton uses a car racing analogy to describe the difference between high-performance shortboards and other types of boards.

• Frampton compares high-performance shortboards to finely tuned Formula One cars and other boards to V8 supercars.

• Matt Parker agrees with the analogy, emphasizing that surfing is about the feeling and the tactile experience.

Surf Culture and Perception

• Matt Parker discusses the culture of surfing and the perception that surfers want to project competence and coolness.

• Parker believes that some surfers focus more on how they are perceived in the lineup rather than the enjoyment they get from surfing.

• He advises against pursuing surfing for the approval of others, especially since it is a solitary pursuit.

Matt Parker's Journey into Surfboard Shaping

• Matt Parker shares his journey into shaping surfboards, starting with curiosity and experimentation in the late 80s and early 90s.

• Parker began shaping boards with no intention of it becoming a business, focusing on the creation and exploration process.

• His interest in different board shapes and the lack of available options led him to start shaping his own boards.

Transition to a Business

• Matt Parker transitioned from shaping boards as a hobby to running Album Surf as a business.

• The demand for his unique boards and the accessibility of the surf industry in the digital age contributed to this decision.

• Parker's boards resonated with professional surfers, validating his designs and encouraging him to pursue the business further.

Surfing Philosophy and Enjoyment

• Matt Parker shares his current relationship with surfing, emphasizing the importance of being in the water as much as possible.

• He notes that while his physical abilities may have peaked, he enjoys surfing more now than ever due to a better perspective and appreciation for the experience.

• Parker believes that the mindset and appreciation for the opportunity to surf contribute to a more enjoyable experience.

Choosing Surfboards for Travel

• Matt Parker discusses the challenge of choosing three boards to travel with, given his constant R&D and new board designs.

• He suggests a fish, a bigger board like Margo's models, and an asymmetrical high-performance board like the Disorder or Bongia.

• Michael Frampton agrees, highlighting the importance of having a versatile quiver to adapt to different wave conditions.

Glider Surfboards and Longboarding

• Matt Parker and Michael Frampton discuss the satisfaction and unique experience of riding glider surfboards.

• They emphasize the kinetic energy, speed, and momentum maintenance that gliders offer.

• Parker prefers riding gliders over traditional longboards, enjoying the trim and glide feeling.

Soft Top Surfboards

• Matt Parker explains the differences in Album Surf's soft top surfboards compared to others on the market.

• He mentions that their soft tops are made in different places, with some having injection foam and others having a foam core with stringers.

• Parker highlights the benefits of soft tops for beginners and experienced surfers alike, emphasizing the fun and unique experience they offer.

Best and Worst Surf Advice

• Matt Parker shares the best surf advice he has received, which is to choose the board that brings the most fun and not worry about others' opinions.

• He also mentions the worst advice, which is unnecessary rules or perceptions about how surfing should be done.

• Parker emphasizes that surfing should be about having fun and being out in the ocean, without strict rules or expectations.

Transcription

Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton. Today's guest is Matt Parker from Album Surf. But before we get into that, a couple of housekeeping items. Firstly, Surf Mastery has a new website, and included on that on the front page is a free PDF download outlining my top five insights from the show and the last eight years or so of focusing on improving my own surfing. Um, so go ahead and download that puppy. Also, does anyone know anyone on YouTube? I have been denied access to my YouTube account and have exhausted all other avenues and have had a dead end. So if anyone knows anyone at YouTube, please reach out: [email protected] or you can DM me on Instagram as well. Onto the show. Today's guest, like I said, is Matt Parker from Album Surf. Matt is a surfer from Southern California, and he started shaping surfboards from his garage back in 2001. And now Album Surf is one of the largest surfboard companies around. They specialize in all types of boards. And let me read a little quote from Matt’s website, which sort of summarizes the way he thinks about surfboards. This is a quote from Matt: “The surfboard is a constant blending of curves and how they interact with the water, making those curves feel comfortable, like an extension of your feet and your mind.” It's so interesting. There shouldn’t be any rules about what a surfboard looks like. I love that quote, and you would have seen there are so many pros that when they aren’t surfing on tour, they end up on these boards, including one of my favorite surfers of all time, Margo. Yes, one of the best free surfers around, Brendan Margieson is well worth a follow on Instagram as well. He started riding Matt’s boards. Anyway, without further ado, I shall fade in my conversation with Matt Parker from Album Surf.

Matt Parker
How are things? Uh, how are things in New Zealand?

Michael Frampton
Are things going swimmingly?

Matt Parker
Always there. So you live in the prettiest place on Earth. How could it not?

Michael Frampton
Oh, yeah. You're not wrong. Although I have to admit, I do miss California.

Matt Parker
Did you have spent time out here before you lived here or just...

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I lived in, uh, I lived in Point Dume, Malibu for four years. Oh, cool. So I was obviously in a little bit of a bubble surfing Little Dume every day, but, uh, you know, the weather, the weather alone in Southern California, I kind of felt like it was a bit monotonous. After four years there, I almost missed winter. But having come back to New Zealand and actually experiencing the four seasons, I take California any day.

Matt Parker
Yeah, it's big news when it rains here. It's like, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no one can drive in the rain in California.

Matt Parker
No. Definitely not, definitely not.

Michael Frampton
And then, of course you can't. Well, you're not supposed to go in the water either.

Matt Parker
Uh, so. So whereabouts in New Zealand? What part are you at? Like, where do you surf at and all that?

Michael Frampton
I'm in a place called Hawke’s Bay, which is on the east coast of the North Island. There's nowhere really famous surf-wise around here. The surf is pretty average around here, actually. We have a mass, uh, continental shelf. So the swell comes in with a, uh, just with almost no energy left in it unless it's a certain period that seems to sneak through. Um, so, yeah, around here is not so good for surfing, to be honest. I came back here to, you know, raise the kids and I think, yeah, that sort of thing.

Matt Parker
But there’s pretty drivable though, right? I mean, you can get...

Michael Frampton
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, you know, if you're willing to drive, um, then yeah, you can get waves, probably get good waves almost every day in New Zealand actually, if you're willing to drive and put up with a little bit of weather.

Matt Parker
Mhm. Not afraid of a little wind. Right. Find the blowing the right way. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Exactly. Well, that’s another big thing is I remember in Southern California so many days there’s just no wind.

Matt Parker
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Where you don’t really get that in New Zealand. Maybe the first two hours of the day there's not much wind, but you'd never get a day where it’s glassy until midday like in Southern California. That’s rare here.

Matt Parker
Yeah. That's like the prototypical dreamy Southern California fall day where it's kind of glass, a little bit offshore in the morning, and kind of glassy and nice and sunny and warm all day with fun combo swells. That's kind of the ideal. It's like that a lot. I'm down in San Clemente. It's pretty clean down here, too. We live in like a little valley that kind of keeps the wind cleaner here. I don't know if it's just protected a little bit from some of the, you know, more beach break spots up in Huntington and Newport, all those spots. But, um...

Michael Frampton
Yeah. No, I've spent a little bit of time down your way as well. I surfed Lowers and I got to interview Archy on my way down there and I spent some time. Um, I love surfing Swami’s and just that whole Encinitas area. Spent some time down there?

Matt Parker
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
And, uh, part of what I wanted to talk about today was, obviously, surfboards. But I remember we interviewed Devon Howard, and so I got to surf with Devon and I was surfing this, like it was a Stu Kenson 9'4". And I would just paddle. I would just paddle right out the back as far as you can at Little Dume and surf it like Sarlo, almost just catch the swell and just get long, big sweeping rides. And Devon’s like, “You should just be on a glider.” And I was like, “What’s a glider?” And then so I just, I just went out and bought an 11-foot Josh Hall, and that’s pretty much all I surf all of the time.

Matt Parker
Even further out. You weren't even like another hundred yards out, would catch it even out the back. Yeah. It's amazing.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And then I'm always swapping around boards. But that 11-foot board just taught me so much about surfing. Just the sheer volume and weight and size of the board. Just, you have to think about reading the waves so differently and about, you know, the space around you with other people so differently. And then when you finally do jump back on a board, a shortboard or whatever, I found it so much easier and more fun and easier to sort of be present after having learnt how to surf such a big surfboard. Yo. Have you experienced anything similar with playing around with lots of different boards?

Matt Parker
Yeah, I, um, I, obviously I make boards and so I'm always riding something different. You know, most of the time it's rare that I ride the same board two days in a row. Um, and so I'm very used to like the initial paddle out where, um, I, I can't try too hard, you know what I mean? I kind of have to just feel what the board is going to do and just kind of be open to what it feels like once I'm dropping in and just kind of riding the wave. And so it makes me, um, yeah, it's just a good little lesson every time because you can't, you can't force it. And so, uh, you remain a little bit relaxed and not try to do too much, and then you kind of feel it out and every wave is kind of like a—you're learning a little bit more about what the board wants to do and what line it wants to take, and trying to figure out where the gas pedal is. And, and, uh, so that's like the discovery part of surfing for me because I surf, I tend to surf the same place every day. And it's a point break down near, uh, Lowers and it's kind of a similar wave, but it's kind of a sectional point break that offers some variety. But it's the same place. You know, I'm surfing in the same spot all the time. And so the variety of boards, um, just kind of changes up. Um, it kind of removes expectations sometimes. I think sometimes if you have a board you've ridden a ton and you're kind of like, oh, this is the kind of surfing I want to go do. And these are the, you know, these are the turns I'm going to do or whatever. And when you're surfing a little bit more blind to what the board is going to allow you to do, it just kind of, um, keeps you from having expectations. And then you're kind of, uh, you just find fun in different ways and new experiences every time you surf.

Michael Frampton
So I think that really good top-level surfers are doing that on a much more refined and accurate level because they're always so close to where the wave is breaking. There's so much in the source and they're feeling all those little bumps and nooks and obviously those sorts of boards at that speed are ridiculously sensitive. So if they're not tuned in to that, it’s just not going to happen. Whereas you and I are surfing bigger boards a little further away from the power source, we kind of can get away with not being tuned in, but when we do, they're aware.

Matt Parker
Yeah, their awareness level is so next level, so high. I like the little nuances, and they can feel a lot of things they can and can't always communicate verbally, but they definitely know what they're feeling and experiencing in a different way than most regular people.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. You know what I found that's really interesting is, all of the pros—well, not all of them—a lot of the pros, when you see them out free surfing or when they take a break off tour, then they're not riding high-performance shortboards. You know, Josh Kerr is a great example. Um, you know, even Steph Gilmore and Kelly Slater with Firewire, just riding different boards. As soon as there's not a camera and a judge looking at them, they're like, "I'm on this board." Yeah, yeah, yeah. I go down to the local beach and it's waist high and onshore and it's 11 seconds, and there's people out there on toothpicks pumping and getting angry. But the pro—even the pros when they're surfing good waves—they're not on those high-performance shortboards. Are you seeing a similar trend overall in Southern California?

Matt Parker
Uh, yeah. I mean, well, specifically with everybody that—all the guys and gals I make boards for—but no one that rides for us really does contest surfing. Most everyone is just kind of free surfing. And so they're definitely on the track of surfing whatever feels good and experiencing a lot of different things. But yeah, Josh is a perfect example. I don't think he's touched a thruster since his last heat at Pipe, honestly, when he retired, and that was probably five years ago or something like that. Even in good waves and every kind of wave, whether he's in Indo or wherever it is, he's always riding something different. And uh, I think obviously high-performance shortboards surf amazing. We all love to watch surfing. We love watching contests and, you know, the sport of it all. It's always exciting and entertaining and all that. But I think that type of board, um, directs you to one type of surfing. There’s, you know, like everyone's trying to kind of surf the ideal way that that board kind of pushes you to. And the judging and the contest structure is kind of, um, positioned around that ideal as well. So I think, um, when you remove that, that box that you're trying to operate in and you don't have to do the same turns and all that, you know, you're just freed up to do whatever you want to do. That's always going to be a more fun option. And for me personally, I am someone who makes boards, it's true. That's my favorite thing, is to see, uh, people that can surf at a world-class level, see them surf a lot of different boards and see the different places those boards can go when it's put under the feet of very, very talented people. Because, um, because for the most part, you know, most of the surf media, most surf contests, you see these very high-level surfers riding very similar types of equipment.

Michael Frampton
Um, yeah, I've always had this analogy in terms of car racing, whereas the pros in a contest, they're in a finely tuned Formula 1 that's customized for their style, right? And then for some reason, we want to go race around the local racetrack, and we think we need to be in one of those cars. And yeah, sure, when the average driver is in a high-performance car, yes, you can drive it around the track, but man, it's going to be bumpy. It's going to be shaking. If you're not constantly turning the car, it's just not going to be as fun as getting in a V8 supercar that's nowhere near as fast or fine-tuned, but it's a little more—it's got a little more give. It still goes fast. So that's what I'm wondering. You see these pros, when they're surfing outside of the contest, they don't necessarily want to be in a finely tuned Formula 1. They just want to be in a V8 supercar and just have a little less pressure and a little more give. How does that analogy stack up for you? The car racing one?

Matt Parker
Well, I like—to me surfing really is about the feeling, right? And like the tactile feeling of driving a car that's fast and that wants to go and that you're feeling it. And there's a little bit of like, uh, you know, you're not going to crash right away. You know, like a regular driver, if they went behind the F1 car, they're probably going to crash pretty quick because they just can't handle it, right? It's too technical to drive, all that kind of stuff. So you get into something that has a better feel. But it is about the feeling. And you know, ultimately that's what we're chasing every time we surf. That's why we want to get another wave, is because you want to get that feeling again. And uh, and so the same with the pros that can surf at the highest level. You know, they're chasing the feeling. The contest is like the job side of it. You know, it's ticking the box I feel in to win and do all that. But if they're freed from that, they're chasing the feeling of going fast and finding a tube and not having to fit in as many turns as they need to just to get the score, but to actually do the turn where the wave is allowing them to or not, or just ride the wave.

Michael Frampton
So that makes sense. Well, yeah, because I'm always dumbfounded when you see so many surfers spending so much time and money on taking these high-performance—you know, they watch Stab in the Dark and they want to buy the latest version of the ten shortboards that they already own. It really doesn't make much sense to me. And I think things are changing, but there certainly is still a large percentage of surfers that fit in that category. Uh, do you think it's trending the other way with companies like yourself and even, you know, Channel Islands are broadening their range of boards? Um, I...

Matt Parker
Think it's—for me, it definitely is the best time to be alive, to be a surfer, because you really have more options nowadays than you ever have in the past, and you really can ride anything. When I was young, as a teenager in the 90s, surfing—it really was—you, everyone kind of had the same board. I rode the same board no matter the conditions. It was like a 6'3", 18.5", 2¼", rockered-out shortboard no matter what. If it was one foot, if it was six foot, whatever. So nowadays you really do—like, I think everyone's kind of experienced like, oh yeah, I can have a little bit more of a diverse quiver, and it's okay if I'm riding a fish one day or I'm riding like a little stretched-out worm another day, or if I'm riding a shortboard one day or whatever. It's like there's a little bit more, um, versatility and variety, and, um, so it's a—it's a great time to be alive, to be a surfer in that way. I think, um, uh, I just think that, yeah, there's just less rules, less rules about it, more enjoyment.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. I guess the question is, the impetus of the show is education and inspiration for better surfing, really. And I guess when I take on a client myself personally, um, one of the first things I say to them is like, why do you want to—why are you on that board? Like, this isn't—you're not surfing double overhead barrels. Like, that's what that board’s made for. Like, just try...

Matt Parker
Yeah, I think I've said this before, but I think a lot of, um, uh, just the culture of surfing is a little bit like—no, everyone wants to look competent, right? And so a lot, a lot of surfing culture is the perception that you put out there, right? Like, I'm the cool guy. I got the right board. I got—I'm not a kook. You know, I'm wearing the right trunks, I've got the right wetsuit, and I've got the right traction pad, and whatever it is, I've got the cool label. This is what I'm—you know, because a lot of people are more concerned with how others perceive them in the lineup. Because sometimes, you know, how you're perceived in the lineup gives you status and gives you—you know, if you're competent, you can kind of—you get more waves and you get a little bit more respect from people around you. And so there's a little bit of a game that people play in trying to, um, project competency and a cool factor. And I'm not a kook. And so sometimes people put too much weight on that, and they're more concerned with what they look like on the beach or in the car park than they actually are...

Matt Parker
And then the enjoyment they're actually getting out of it themselves. You know, like, are you actually having fun? You mentioned like the guys that are flapping around and having a miserable time. There's always people out in the water that are—you kind of wonder sometimes. Do you actually—like, what are you actually getting out of this? Do you actually enjoy what you're doing? And, uh, I don't know. Every—different strokes for different folks. People get different things out of it. And maybe that little social status thing is more important than the actual surfing. And I think that's obviously short-term thinking, because—and it's like, that's a hollow chase that you're after, because you're never going to be satisfied with that. And you shouldn't be. I don't think you should be spending too much time pursuing things for the approval of others. You know, surfing is kind of a solitary pursuit, right? You're the one that's doing it, and you're the one that's riding the wave, and you're the one that's having that moment and feeling it. If you're doing it for what other people think about you, I think you're missing. You're missing the point, you know?

Michael Frampton
So, yeah, well, I definitely fit into that category for a while. Um, we all do.

Matt Parker
At some point, you know, in a little bit. We all do. You know, everyone—no, like I said, everybody who surfs wants to look competent. Kelly Slater doesn't want to be a kook. He wants to be the cool guy in the lineup. We all kind of have that feeling to a certain degree.

Michael Frampton
Um, and there's something to be said, you know, surfing that high-performance shortboard in all types of conditions—you will develop a very intimate relationship with that surfboard. And when the waves do turn on, you're going to be pretty used to it. And then, you know, you're probably going to have a better surf on that day. Um, but was there a point in your surfing life where that changed? Like, where you started riding different boards, more volume, etc.?

Matt Parker
Um, yeah. Like I said, I grew up in the—like, I started surfing in the late 80s, early—and then through the 90s. I was a teenager in the early 90s, and, uh, back then it was really about just being competent enough and you just riding what everybody else rode. And that was really all that was available—just kind of your standard shortboards. I guess for me, as like a general public, you know, not in—you know, I didn’t have any—my dad surfed a little bit when he was young, but I didn’t come from like a long line of family surfing and all that kind of stuff. And so probably I—I started getting curious, more curious about surfboards. Um, and that’s kind of what led me into shaping a little bit, is that I was interested. I—you know, you get—back then, this is pre-internet really, you know, but you would get little—to see different little videos. You’d see different things that were just like, oh, you know, like, that looks fun. That looks like more fun. I was surfing Newport Beach. It's two-foot closeouts most of the time. It's not good. It's—you know, it's hard. Like surfing is hard out there and you're riding equipment that's bad.

Matt Parker
So you just have a lot of frustrating sessions and you're just like, just gotta—you know, just—you would see videos, you'd see guys in good waves. And so that was always—like I was interested in, um, trying different boards to get a different experience. You know, I was competent enough, but I was by no means pro or anything like that. I was good enough out in the lineup to get waves and to surf and fine, but it was not—but I always felt like those boards held me back, too. You know, just the normal boards, because they kind of—you know, you just have like—it can't be this frustrating all the time. So the interest in different boards. So I would go to different shops and I would want to get a board that was different and I could never really find one. You know, I could never really find what I was looking for. And then, um, even when I would order custom boards, you know, from local shapers, I would try to explain what I had in my brain, what I was like trying to go for. And it was never—it never—like, it was probably my fault for not communicating that clearly what I was really after, but it never was it.

Matt Parker
And so I was, uh, in design school and art school and taking all these like sculpture and drawing and painting classes and stuff. And so it was just kind of a natural extension to get a blank and some tools and kind of experiment and just try to make something without any restrictions of what it had to look like, because I was just fooling around, you know. So that was probably the interest. And that was probably at the time when, like, um, things were coming more online and you had more access to just different things other people were doing. And so you could kind of see, uh, you know, your world was kind of opened up as far as like, oh, there’s like other shapers in all these places making different things. And there are a lot of cool things out there that I just hadn’t really experienced and I didn’t have—I had never tried or felt or seen in person, but like, it just kind of expanded what was possible. And the interest level in surfing really grew. And my fun level expanded too, because it was like everything was opened up more.

Michael Frampton
Um, and then it sounds like the development or the birth of Album Surfboards was quite organic. You saw essentially a gap in the market, right?

Matt Parker
Yeah. Initially, for years I was shaping boards with no intention of it being a thing, being a business or anything. It was more—I just wanted to try different things. And, um, the creation part of it was really fun, like just designing and trying something, and the tactile thing of making something with your hands and then seeing it finished and then going and riding it was very addicting. It was very, um, yeah, it just kind of opened my mind a lot. And it was just—it just made the exploration process of trying different boards satisfying, even if the surf was bad. So in the old days, you know, as a kid when I was a teenager and you’re trying to just, like, do all the moves you see in the videos and you’re having frustrating sessions because the waves aren’t good most of the time, and you’re riding boards that aren’t good—you just—surfing wasn’t as fun. And so when I was making boards and exploring and trying these different types of shapes, just going out and seeing that it worked and making it like get down the line and get the feeling of speed that I was kind of envisioning with it was satisfying.

Matt Parker
So the waves didn’t have to be good, and my surfing didn’t have to be amazing, and I was still, like, very satisfied and validated and surf-stoked. I was inspired to go make another board and surf more because I wanted to try out these things that I was, um, that I was playing around with. But I did that for years—hundreds, probably a couple thousand boards—before it was even, like, a real business I was doing. I was a designer by trade, and so I was doing, like, graphic design work, and that was kind of what my employment or job focus was, and making boards was like this side—this just kind of creative art project on the side that I could just have fun with. And I could usually, like, sell one to pay for another one and, you know, fund it, you know, put it up like in the used rack at a shop and sell it on consignment. Just turn it over enough to learn the craft without any pressure of having to be a professional at doing it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. So did your entrepreneurial journey begin with the Album agency?

Matt Parker
Yeah, exactly. So that was—I was running my own business and just doing client work, client design work that way. And, um, building the surfboards and kind of treating it like my own little micro brand was kind of also an extension of the graphic design side. So I was able to kind of like—you know, you’re doing work for clients in industries that you’re not really interested in, you know—and I was like, here’s a chance for me to play around with design and create it and kind of like make this a fun little, like, you know, brand for fun without any, you know, strings attached.

Michael Frampton
And what inspired you to make the leap? To turn the surfboards into the main business?

Matt Parker
Uh, there was just—well, I was doing it at night. So I would be working in the day—like, client work and, um, designing and getting projects done. And then I’d go home and have dinner with the family and then put the little kids to bed and go in my garage or go in my backyard and shape at night. And I was doing this a lot. So I was working a lot—I was working a full-time-plus job and then shaping on the side. And demand just kind of like, you know—we were just kind of—we would get out—you know, I was making boards that were probably interesting and that resonated with other people that they hadn’t seen either. And there was something unique about what we were doing. And so, um, the age of when we are, you know, in this last 15 years where things are just more accessible and people can find you easier—it just kind of—the awareness of what I was doing got out there probably faster than if it was 30 years ago. No—the people in my little community would have known. But then, so then people would just want to order a board, and then that just kind of gets to this, uh, point where the demand kind of exceeds the time on the other side. And so I just kind of realized like, oh, there’s, uh—I think by that point, too, I had made enough boards and had enough awareness of just the surf industry and kind of where things were, that you could kind of see opportunities or openings in the market. And like, here we have something different to say, and there’s people that are interested in what we’re doing. So yeah, let’s make a little run at it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Well, you mentioned supply and demand—I mean, that is why business exists. So obviously the culture is changing. You know, people are more interested in, uh, you know, different shapes. And, uh, I would say a higher level of longevity—you get a much more longevity out of a surfboard like yours as opposed to a pop-out, um, white shortboard for sure.

Matt Parker
I think the other thing too was—I made boards, I made some boards for some good surfers, some pros and things like that, and they worked really well. And so there was kind of like this validation of like, oh, okay. Like, I mean, I knew—like I said, I was competent enough to know that they worked for my level of surfing, and I was having an amazing time and having fun, and my friends were. But then, um, when I made some boards for guys that could surf really well, and then they had more fun on that too, it was kind of like, oh, you know, maybe there really is something a little different that we’re doing that does work and makes sense of like—we should kind of follow that path because there’s something there that hasn’t been tapped into yet, and it resonates with guys that can surf at the highest level. So we should kind of pursue that.

Michael Frampton
Um, that leads me into a question I have about—let’s get into your designs a little bit. So I remember I first got into surfing fish surfboards. I had a Christensen fish that I used to surf a lot. And then I remember one day the waves turned on, um, and rising swell. And next thing you know, I’m surfing almost double overhead waves. And I find, man, to be able to surf that fish in those real good solid waves, I would have to move my feet closer to the inside rail to do a bottom turn, and then I go up to do a top turn—it would just slide outside. This is not the right surfboard. But at the same time, I don’t want to be surfing a high-performance shortboard. And then you look at someone like Josh Kerr surfing the Twinsman or the, um, Insanity—I think it is—in the Mentawais in double overhead waves, getting barreled and doing airs on what is, I guess, hybrid or alternative high-performance shape. Now, is that the kind of board that only he can ride in those waves? Or is it designed so that anyone can have a good time in those overseas waves?

Matt Parker
Well, I think there's a misnomer. To me, there was always a misnomer in the marketplace that high-performance shortboards are for like "real" surfing and alternative boards are just, you know, for fun or whatever. And, um, I think if you look at the trajectory of surfboards from, you know, longboards, logs up into the early 60s, mid-60s, to how quickly it progressed and revolutionized—like what people were riding in such a short window of time—there's so many, um, like, design steps along the way and different types of boards along the way that, like, didn't get their full, uh, fleshing out. Right? So there's a lot of ideas in that time. And I—I mean, twin fins are a perfect example of that. Like, where twin fins were really at like their height from, you know, '78 to '81 or something like that, or, you know, '77—like, what is it? Three or four years or something like that, where twin fins were like the high-performance little hot-dog board that people were riding. And that was with kind of like—I mean, nowadays, like that window of time is a blink. You know, three years—it's like most of us have boards that we've surfed for five, six, eight years. You know what I mean? So three years is nothing. And so, you know, you just see like, oh, the fins they were riding—they didn't have enough time to develop the right fins for them. And they didn't have enough time to think about fin placement and designing the rail shape and bottom contour to fit where that goes and what type of wave that needs to be surfed in and what blanks were available and different glassing layups and all that.

Matt Parker
It was just too fast. And so, um, I've always felt like, um, alternative boards—twin fins—are not like a cop-out of, "I'm just going to screw around." Like, it's like any sort of design, any place I'm going to take a surfboard, there's an intended performance or design intention for that concept. And so the concept is meant to perform at a high level. It's just a different way of doing it. And, um, and so like with Josh, those boards—like, he has more fun and more freedom, more speed. They're easier to turn on a twin fin, you know, and so if you can make them and design it to be able to handle any type of wave, they're certainly obviously capable and validated by him and others in those types of waves. And so it's just a matter of backing it, backing the concept and then proving the concept and then iterating the idea and the concept enough to prove it out and refine it and get it right so that it actually does work in those types of waves.

Matt Parker
But I think sometimes when, like, you know, shapers or whatever—if they're focused on one thing, if they're focused on high-performance shortboards, their version of a twin fin or a fish is not the main design intention. It's almost like a little—it’s like a spin-off of their shortboard idea. And it's like they take their shortboard idea and they kind of fatten it a little bit and just put two fins in it instead of three and, you know, maybe make it a swallowtail. We'll call it the alternative board. And to me, I'm more focused on the concept of a high-performance twin fin that maybe surfs better or is more of an advantage than a shortboard would be in those waves. And so it's like, how would I design it? Where do the fins go? What does that mean for the bottom contour? Like, what dimensions are we talking about? You know? And so there's—like the funnest thing about surfing is there's so many variables in the types of waves, in the swell and the wind conditions and the interval and where you're surfing, the type of surfing you want to do. And so there's kind of like these endless rabbit holes of design and conceptual thinking you can go down and create whatever. And it's so fun too, because I mean, I think surfers should be very grateful and realize how fortunate that we all are.

Michael Frampton
That we—we—we...

Matt Parker
Um, participate in this pursuit where we can make all sorts of different things all the time. I mean, if you're like, if you're driving or you're skiing or whatever it is, it's much more difficult to—you're not going to go make ten different concepts of skis that you're going to go try out every different time you go skiing. But with surfboards, you can make—you know, I can go surf today, have a session out there, get the pros and cons of the board I’m riding. I come back to design something based on that idea, shape it that day, gloss it, and be surfing something next week.

Michael Frampton
Mmm.

Matt Parker
Something that I was intending to design for. That’s just like—it’s just a cool thing that we all kind of—and surfing is small enough, the surf industry is small enough that if you're motivated, you can have access to any of that. It's relatively—for what that is, for the access to that kind of R&D and design options for different types of boards—it’s relatively inexpensive. Not super cost-prohibitive. You know, if you're into it, if you're committed to it, it's affordable enough. You can—you know...

Michael Frampton
Mhm. Yeah, I think the importance of a quiver is... yeah, I mean, I don’t know whether that’s why you chose the name Album, but you know, it makes me think of a good album like Pearl Jam Ten, which is ten really good songs, all with different moods but still the same album. You know, you can sit—you can sit down and listen to the album, or you can sit down and listen to one song. And I almost see a surfboard quiver as like that. It’s—you know, has ten surfboards that are for you, but for the different types of moods and the waves that you’re surfing. But it does make me think, because there’s also that Swiss Army knife surfboard that kind of does pretty good in most waves and tends to excel in sort of head-high good waves, for sure. What’s that—what’s that surfboard for you within your quiver? What would that Swiss Army knife board be?

Matt Parker
Well, that would probably be like a board I would travel with, right? Because you're—something that you would have that you'd want to have versatility for. And that would probably be like Victor’s model, like a Banana Bunch. It's like a quad—asymmetrical quad. It's kind of a hybrid. It's definitely a performance board, but it definitely is easier to go fast. And it paddles a little bit better. And it turns super easy. And it’s versatile in a lot of kinds of waves. Um, it's probably something like that. Um, honestly, if you have the right mindset though, almost any board in your quiver should be able to fill that slot, I think.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that’s a good point.

Matt Parker
Yep. It's all—I mean, to me there's, um, you know, sometimes—we all do it—where no matter what board you're surfing, people try to surf the same way, right? They have like their, "This is the way I bottom turn. This is the turn I do. This is my little re-entry." And you'll watch them out there, and it doesn't matter if they're riding their fish or mid-length or shortboard or whatever it is, they kind of surf the same. And, uh, that's fine. That's totally fine. But I think it's good to be a little bit more open to what the board wants to do and the type of surfing that board is going to allow you to do and how it might open up the kind of surfing you do and the enjoyment you get out of that kind of surfing, so that it makes you a little bit more versatile in what your approach is like. Victor Bernardo, who rides for us, is a really good example of that because I think a lot of times people, when they’re building a quiver, they are a little bit too narrow in scope or what range they’re going for. Like, it happens all the time where I’ll have people that—they kind of—they want their fish and their shortboard and their twin fin and everything to all be within like a little volume range. Like, "Here’s my liter, here's the liter I ride, and my boards need to be within 30 to 31.5 liters."

Matt Parker
And they try to fit all their boards—and it's like, I think you're missing out if you're thinking about it in that way. So Victor is this perfect example because he's a young man, 26, 27 years old, a highest-level professional surfer, can surf as well as anybody in the world. Competed on the show, did all that stuff, right? But if you look at his quiver, it is like—from 5'0" to 8'0" and everything in between. I mean, obviously, he has access to a lot of boards, which helps. It makes it easy to ride a lot of stuff. But still, his mindset is like—if you were just talking about what volume he rides, he rides from 29 liters to 42 liters. You know what I mean? So his range is like this, and these are all different types of what I would call performance boards. So even yesterday—or this week—we were in Hawaii.

Matt Parker
He's still there right now, but we were on the North Shore this past week, and he was riding a 6'8" Bungee round tail, which is—his normal version is like a 5'8" or 5'9", and he was riding the 6'8" round tail version that was plus volume. It was actually one of Brendan Margieson’s boards that Margo left there in Hawaii. When Margo went back to Australia, Victor took it out and got a couple of amazing waves at Pipe, you know, on that board. And so it's just—definitely not limiting his performance—actually enhancing his performance because it was something unique that he wouldn’t have maybe taken out normally, but it just kind of opened up his surfing. And I think if you remain a little bit more open—open to what the board wants to do and what the waves are asking you to do—you will just have more fun. Yeah. Surfing gets to, like you were saying just now, like it started, right? When you're riding the glider and then you go jump onto your shortboard, your surfing is better because your fundamentals are better. Your timing is a little different. You know, your mindset is a little different.

Michael Frampton
So yeah, I think every board you ride opens up—you have to read the waves a little differently and look for different lines. And like you said, your timing has to be better, or maybe it can be more lax, or you're looking for a different type of wave or whatever. So I think it really just helps you to read the ocean better. I think that's the main reason why different surfboards can improve your surfing when you jump back on your favorite board—because you just read the wave with more detail. Riding that glider changed my realization of how big and how fast of a section I can actually make because those boards go ridiculously fast. Um, yeah. And I surprised myself many times with what I could—what section I could get around. And that literally translated to surfing other boards. I'm going to try and make that section. I'm going to get a bit lower and stay on the whitewash a bit longer. And lo and behold, surfing that big, crazy board just had me making different types of waves and changing my whole perspective on reading the ocean. Um, it sounds like—I agree with that—it sounds like Victor needs to go longer as well.

Matt Parker
He does. He rides bigger. But I think the point of a quiver is to make you surf as much as possible. So no matter what the waves are, you have the right board to have fun that day. And that's really the— to me—the thing that improves you as a surfer the most is water time. So if you're surfing a lot, if you're surfing more days than you're not, you're going to get better. You read the ocean better, your timing is better, your strength, your paddle strength is better. All that stuff kind of comes into play the more you surf. And so if you have a quiver that motivates you to want to surf and makes you—kind of no matter what the waves are—you're like, "Oh, I'm stoked to go out today because I have the right board," then you're going to have more fun. And you see those guys struggling and you're having fun and they're miserable. It's like, oh yeah, you made the right choice, and you have the right board to just get out in the water a lot.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I think you nailed it. That is the point of a quiver. So it's as simple as that. And you're right. I mean, the best thing that ultimately you can do for your surfing is not only to surf more, but to surf more waves. And if you're on the right surfboard for the condition, you are going to catch more waves. When it's knee-high here at my local point break and there's no one out, I'm literally giddy because I have an 11-foot Josh Hall and no one can compete with that because no one...

Matt Parker
How did you ship that thing to New Zealand? How did you get that point there? That's what I want to know.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I know. It...

Matt Parker
Just...

Michael Frampton
I filled a container with all of my stuff. So I've got—I’ve got my Wayne Rich 9'8" and everything. Everything here. So how—how would you, if I just asked you an open question, what is a surfboard?

Matt Parker
Uh, well, there's the—you know, it's foam and fiberglass and resin and all that, right? Uh, but I think it's just—it’s a tool to allow you to go ride the waves. So whatever that is, it comes in many forms, that's for sure. Yeah. Uh, I think it's—depending on, you know, a surfboard for Pipeline, like where we were at last week, is not a surfboard for Upper Trestles, where I surf most every other day. Very, very different tools for those different types of waves. And so I think it's a tool that gets you to catch a wave and ride a wave. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Simple. How would you describe your current relationship with surfing and the ocean, and how has it evolved over the years?

Matt Parker
Um, I surf a lot. To me, it's the most important thing in my job as a designer and shaper and surfboard manufacturer—is being in the water as much as I can. So I surf five or six days a week. And, uh, it's kind of a daily ritual, getting out there. And so I surf a lot. Um, I'm 47 now, so I'm definitely past my peak of, uh—my better—my best days are behind me as far as strength and ability level and all that kind of stuff. But I definitely have more fun surfing now than I ever have in my life. And, uh, I get more enjoyment out of it and I have a better perspective on it. And so, um, you just appreciate different things about sessions that you skipped and you missed when you're young and immature. And so, you know, with age comes wisdom. And so I definitely—yeah, I appreciate it. Every session I go out I just have a better mindset for just appreciating the opportunity to go out and surf. I live in a place where I have things like surfboards to ride and just waves most every day that are rideable. It's a real blessing. So I think that my mindset makes me appreciate it more now than ever. So. Mhm.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I like that. I'm going to go back to—so we talked about the Swiss Army, the single board. What if you could choose three boards to travel with or just to have, what would those three boards be?

Matt Parker
It's—you know it's funny, because we’re talking about quivers, right? And I'm actually like—I don’t have a great quiver because I don’t have boards I hold on to that long. The problem for me is that I'm always doing R&D and working on new models and new boards. And so it’s ever-changing. So my answer would probably be that if you asked me next month, it would probably be different than it would be a month ago. So it changes all the time. But if I was going to—like where we live—going down to Mexico, go down there all the time and surf the points, I would for sure take some form of a fish. I've been riding a version of Asher Pacey's Sunstone with a little hip, and I’ve been riding it as a quad a bunch lately, and I’ve been riding it with twin fin, like upright twin fins in the lead boxes, and little small trailers in the quad trailer boxes, and been having a good old time on that. So I would definitely bring one of those. I’d probably bring a bigger board, like one of Margo’s models—a Vesper or a Delma—which is like a stretched out, kind of like a slot channel, concave, bonzer-ish bottom quad. I'd definitely bring one of those. I can hang in good surf too, and they're really nimble, easy to turn for a big board. I'll ride those 6'8" to 7'2", 7'4", 7'6". I have an 8'0" I take out on that all the time. Definitely take that. And then I’d probably take something asymmetrical, some sort of a Disorder model, which is like my high-performance kind of like foiled rails, outline-shifted, or a Bungee like I was saying—probably something to at least, like, cover the bases.

Michael Frampton
Okay, cool. I'm taking a Whale Shark, a Vesper, and an Insanity.

Matt Parker
Oh, that’s good. That’s a good call too. The Whale Shark would tick that glider box for you for sure. Uh, so I...

Michael Frampton
Want one so bad just by reading the description. That’s it.

Matt Parker
Uh...

Matt Parker
When you're talking about that buildup of that section and you're just in so early and you have fun—for me, the fun of those boards is that kinetic energy of, like, the speed building. Like, you build the speed and maintain the speed and build the speed some more. And it’s just a very satisfying feeling. It’s just me. And I—we make longboards and I enjoy longboarding, but I prefer it—if I'm riding a big board—I prefer a glider or a big twin like a Whale Shark. I have a little bit more fun just because I probably surf more off the back foot than I do in a walking-the-nose and all that kind of stuff.

Michael Frampton
So yeah. Same. Yeah. It's amazing if you got your—if you're used to it and you get your timing right, you can step back on an 11-foot board and do a cutback. And, like, it’s so satisfying. And you're right, the maintenance of the momentum of one of those big boards is such an incredible feeling. And it's amazing what sections you can make. And I've had some of the longest rides ever, oh, I bet, on what most people would see as unmakeable waves just by taking that high line and trusting it. It’s, uh—yeah, it's an incredible feeling.

Matt Parker
Riding gliders is like its own form of riding a foil board. It's like you’re almost—ride those boards, you ride those waves that, um, you know, no one else can really get into depth. Length of ride is insane on those.

Michael Frampton
And it’s, um—Joel Tudor says it’s the ultimate goal, right? Is Skip Frye.

Matt Parker
Oh, yeah. For sure.

Michael Frampton
It's the end game.

Michael Frampton
Uh, but it's—I mean, I've surfed that board in—I was a few years ago, we had it in Malibu, there's a Little Dume. There's an outer reef that breaks when you get those 18-second northwest swells. I took my glider out there and it was double overhead barreling, and I was like, wow, maybe I shouldn’t have brought this. But I managed to get such a high line and set the rail so early that I could just avoid the barrel and still have—and still catch the waves and have such a rad time. So they're such versatile boards if you know how to surf them.

Matt Parker
And you're doing your own step-offs.

Michael Frampton
Basically.

Matt Parker
Oh, it is towed-in out the back. Yeah. It's just like being able to paddle that fast. It's amazing.

Michael Frampton
Oh yeah. And that's the thing. You can paddle around so much. That’s what I like about them so much too. If you can see a section over there, you can just paddle over to it.

Matt Parker
And that board's going to last you forever. Twenty years from now, you'll still be surfing with it. You'll have that—you’ll have that thing forever. Yeah. Which is special.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Was that—so obviously it sounds like you've experienced riding—was that the inspiration for the Whale Shark? Riding gliders?

Matt Parker
Yeah. Just—just because, like I was saying, I'm not a longboarder that's walking on the nose. And, you know, I’m more into just trim and glide and that feeling. And obviously you want to have a board that you can ride for fun on those longboard days when it’s really small and it's just soft and just little open faces. And so that was my preference, was to ride that style of board. And so it was—for me, it's like an extension of the fish. Obviously it’s taking a 5'6" fish and making it 10'6" and so on. So the same kind of principle is a little bit—for me, it’s just putting it with a really long rail and with a different, you know, sort of rocker to fit that wave face.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Just a side note for listeners—if you haven't ridden a longboard or a log, don't go out and buy a glider. Get used to a longboard first, because they are a lot of surfboard, and if you don't know how to ride them, you're just going to hurt someone.

Matt Parker
Your 9'4" was a perfect little entry point.

Michael Frampton
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Now, soft tops—I wanted to ask you about soft tops. You guys are making soft tops. I haven’t seen or touched or ridden one of your soft tops, but they look quite different to the Costco or the INT-style ones. What’s your point of difference with soft tops?

Matt Parker
We make them in a few different places. We have some that we make that are like injected foam. And so it’s where we actually took my shaped board and we made a mold—I shaped a few boards and we made molds off of these finished shaped boards. And that allows you to really put in design detail into that mold. And so like one of them has a little channel bottom, you can put real fin boxes in them. They're obviously not high-performance because they're foamies, you know what I mean? But there's a different mindset—there’s the right day for that, even if you surf well. Obviously for beginners they’re great because you can surf them into the sand and they just float, easy to catch waves. They’re kind of a little bit slower, so the pacing of them kind of matches the wave when you’re just kind of learning to ride the trim and ride the speed of the wave. So for people learning, it’s great. But for people that know how to surf, it's like—those days when it’s closing out and it’s on the sand, or you just want to go out and have fun and fool around, it’s something different. So those ones we do—and those are made in the U.S.—and there's just like injection foam molded soft tops.

Matt Parker
And then we also make some in Peru that are by the surfers in Peru, which are pretty sick. They’ve got a foam core and they have stringers, and they're kind of like a slick bottom, like some of the soft tops you see. But they actually have real shape and they have a better flex to them, and there’s real fin boxes. And those are kind of like a cool in-between where if you're like a kid or you're someone who’s kind of progressing, it’s a great board to kind of progress on because you can actually turn them and you can surf them pretty decently. And they’re less, you know, less expensive and all that. They’re made in a surf country by surfers, which is pretty cool.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, cool. Yeah, I’ve got a 9'6" INT that I absolutely love. Um, and I've always...

Matt Parker
Ah, INTs got really good.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. And it lasted quite a while actually. It's still going. I actually surfed it every day when I was doing lessons for a long time, and then would just end up catching loads of waves on it. I love them so much because it’s a boat, right? The 9'6" INT—it’s a thick, big surfboard, but I think because it flexes so much, you can ride it in lots of different types of waves and actually really turn it much easier than the same amount of surfboard if it was a stiff sort of... Is that why? And then you watch Jamie O'Brien surf them at Pipe, like...

Matt Parker
Well, it’s just funny.

Matt Parker
Sometimes it looks like he has the right board for them, which is insane. He’s obviously a...

Matt Parker
Freak, but that’s...

Matt Parker
But to me the point of it is, it’s like—it’s a mindset thing. When you’re riding those boards, you’re not—you’re definitely not trying to win a contest when you're riding one of those. You're definitely going out there to have fun and kind of goof around, which is really good. It’s a good reset for surfing, I think, as you kind of, you know—you can’t try too hard. We just...

Matt Parker
Go out there and...

Matt Parker
It’s much easier to kind of give a wave away to someone else. You’re not going to be back-paddling people to get waves when you're on those. And so it's just a good mindset to reset and have fun on them. And that’s why it’s amazing how many sessions you have on those where you have a lot of fun, because your mindset is in a good place and you’re not overdoing it, you’re not overcooking it, and you have better perspective.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah. I guess you're not too worried about it cracking if you mistime something close to the sand or the board hits you a little bit—it’s not as bad. Yeah, I’ve always enjoyed it. I’ve always enjoyed the novelty of riding a soft top. And it’s stoked to see you guys making some more refined-looking ones.

Matt Parker
Yeah. I mean, the idea is obviously still there. The point is that they’re soft tops. But if we can kind of come at it from a different angle—there’s no need for us to go to the same factory that Wavestorm or Catch Surf makes and then just put different graphics on a soft top. Those already exist, right? We don’t need to just have our... That’s just another commodity. We don’t need to make another one of those. But if we can make something that’s a little unique or that offers something different from everything else that’s out there, and it gives a different feeling and we explore different things, then cool—we’ll try it out and we’ll give it a go.

Michael Frampton
Um, cool. Well, Matt, thank you so much for your time. I’ve got one more question I want to leave you with before we sign off, which is—what’s your best and worst surf advice that you ever received?

Matt Parker
Yeah. I would say—me too. But the worst would be...

Matt Parker
I mean, the...

Matt Parker
Best would definitely be, like we’ve been talking about, is like—I’ve said this before. This is kind of my running theme a little bit, as far as—like, choose the board. You know, when you're going to decide what you’re going to ride, like think about if there was no one else on the beach and no one else was out in the water—like you’re talking about that day when you're happy and you’re the only one out—what would you actually ride? What do you actually really have the most fun surfing on? And that could be a shortboard. It could be a high-performance shortboard. You could be—that’s the day you take it out because you're not, you know, you're kind of kooky on it but you want to get good, and that's what you want to get out of it. But to me, it’s like—pick the board that... Don’t do it for the approval of others. You know, like, choose what you really want to ride and what you really want to experience and just go do that and go have fun. And I think you'll have the most fun.

Matt Parker
Um, I’m trying to think, like what... maybe that, um, you need to have an epoxy board for a wave pool. That’s the worst.

Matt Parker
That’s—that’s it. I don’t know how applicable that is, but...

Michael Frampton
I think it's going to be more and more applicable very soon.

Matt Parker
Well, I think—and maybe that goes in line with what I think—there are in surfing... there shouldn’t be hard and fast rules. You know, sometimes there’s like these perceptions and there’s hard and fast rules, like this is what you’ve got to do and this is the way you’ve got to do it. And I don’t like... Surfing doesn’t have to—like who says? Who?

Matt Parker
It’s that way.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. There’s a famous surfer—I can't remember, is it Kelly Slater? I think he surfs a door.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. You can—you can surf anything. Even an old door.

Matt Parker
Exactly. Exactly. I know—a table. I think he surfs a table, like upside down.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And isn't there a video with Taj Burrow and Chris Ward all surfing all sorts of objects? Yeah. So yeah, there’s no rules, right?

Matt Parker
Like, why are we doing this? What are we doing this for? We want to have fun. Just be out in the ocean.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Exactly. Uh, well, Matt, thank you so much for your time, man. Appreciate it.

Matt Parker
Yeah.

Matt Parker
Great to chat with you. Cool.

Michael Frampton
All right. Simple as that. Thanks, man.

Matt Parker
Yeah. Good to meet you.

Michael Frampton
You too.

Matt Parker - Choosing Boards and Breaking Surfing Rules

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

Is it ever too late to start surfing? What if your best wave is still ahead—even if you’re in your 60s?

In this episode, legendary tech entrepreneur and author Guy Kawasaki shares his unexpected journey into surfing—starting at age 60. From battling Ménière’s disease to redefining success through grace, grit, and daily ocean immersion, Guy blends humor, humility, and hard-won wisdom that every surfer—young or old—can learn from.

• Discover how Guy used dry-land training, grit, and daily practice to surf better despite late entry and physical limitations

• Learn why grace in the lineup matters more than ego—and what seasoned surfers should really model for beginners

• Hear how surfing helped Guy redefine ikigai, decision-making, and leadership—on the board and in life

Hit play now and hear how a Silicon Valley icon found deeper joy, humility, and life lessons in the ocean—and how you can too.

Follow Guy Kawasaki:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guykawasaki/

• Website: https://guykawasaki.com/

Key Points

• Guy Kawasaki started surfing at age 60, inspired by his daughter's passion for the sport.

• Guy Kawasaki took surfing lessons in multiple locations to accelerate his learning pace.

• Surfing has significantly improved Guy Kawasaki's life despite his pre-existing Meniere's disease.

• Guy Kawasaki believes that luck is a result of being prepared and taking advantage of opportunities.

• Guy Kawasaki attributes his success in various endeavors, including surfing, to grit and a growth mindset.

• Grace in surfing, according to Guy Kawasaki, is demonstrated by experienced surfers who help and encourage beginners rather than asserting dominance.

• Guy Kawasaki reframes the concept of Ikigai as doing something you love despite not being good at it or getting paid for it.

• Guy Kawasaki emphasizes the importance of making decisions right rather than constantly seeking the perfect decision.

• The core message of Guy Kawasaki's recent book is that making a difference and improving the world leads to being recognized as remarkable. 

Outline

Guy Kawasaki's introduction to surfing

• Guy Kawasaki started surfing at the age of 60.

• Kawasaki's daughter inspired them to take up surfing.

• Kawasaki's parenting philosophy is to let their children determine what they should take up based on what they love.

• Kawasaki took up hockey at 44 and surfing at 60 because that's what their kids are into.

Kawasaki's approach to learning surfing

• Kawasaki took lessons in Hawaii, India, Santa Cruz, and Cowles at Jack's to accelerate their learning pace.

• Kawasaki started with paddleboards and then transitioned to a narrow board.

• Kawasaki's surf instructor established the pecking order in surfing, with paddleboarding being beneath prone surfing.

• Kawasaki found the hardest part of surfing to be knowing where to sit and when to turn.

Surfing's impact on Kawasaki's life

• Kawasaki surfs every day and finds it to be the most fun they can have legally.

• Kawasaki has Meniere's disease, which causes sporadic attacks of vertigo, tinnitus, and hearing loss, but they still took up ice hockey and surfing.

• Kawasaki sees surfing as a challenge and a way to prove that they can do things despite what others may say.

• Kawasaki's dream is to be able to take four steps and hang 10 on the nose, but they are currently only able to take two steps.

Kawasaki's writing and surfing

• Kawasaki believes they are a better writer than a surfer.

• Kawasaki's book is succinct and to the point, explaining complex concepts in a simple manner.

• Kawasaki's writing style is influenced by their experience in surfing, using surfing metaphors to explain life concepts.

Life lessons from surfing

• Kawasaki believes that one should not wait for the perfect wave or opportunity in life, but rather take action and make decisions even if they are wrong.

• Kawasaki sees luck as planting a lot of seeds and being prepared to take advantage of opportunities when they arise.

• Kawasaki's deafness in the water has some advantages, such as not being distracted by others yelling at them in the lineup.

• Kawasaki's focus and concentration come from a form of OCD that allows them to lose touch with reality and be in a zone when they are focused on something.

Kawasaki's dry land training for surfing

• Kawasaki practices pop-ups and constantly increases flexibility as part of their dry land training.

• Kawasaki's goal is to hang 10 and then drop dead right after, as a way to achieve their dream.

• Kawasaki has seen dead bodies being taken off the beach at Jack's and believes that is how they will be taken out if they achieve their goal.

Commonalities among Remarkable People podcast guests

• The commonality among the 250 guests of Remarkable People podcast is that to be remarkable, one needs to have a growth mindset, be willing to pay the price, be gritty, and be gracious.

• Grit is the ability to do something when one is not necessarily getting positive results or enjoying it, but is willing to pay the price.

• Grace is the realization that one is successful in life and fortunate because of the help of teachers, coaches, mentors, and bosses, and the moral obligation to pay back society by opening doors for others.

Grace in the surfing world

• Kawasaki believes that the better one is at surfing, the more gracious they should be.

• Kawasaki has a theory that the middle ground is where one lacks grace, as they may feel like the big dog and try to take every wave.

• Kawasaki admires surfers like Joel Tudor who surf gracefully and do not yell at others, even if they are dropped in on.

Compassion as a combination of empathy and grit

• Kawasaki defines compassion as going from empathy to actually doing something for the other person.

• Kawasaki believes that a compassionate person does something, while an empathetic person just feels something.

• Kawasaki's definition of Ikigai is doing something that one is not good at, cannot get paid for, and may hate, but still does because they love it.

Ellen Langer's influence on Kawasaki

• Ellen Langer made the observation that one should make their decisions right, rather than trying to make the right decision.

• Kawasaki applies this to surfing by turning and burning and making the decision right, which means compensating by turning the board or paddling harder or softer.

• Kawasaki believes that making decisions right is a prescription for how to lead a remarkable life.

Meditation and Buddhism in Kawasaki's life

• Kawasaki does not practice meditation and is not a meditator, but believes that they were born with the ability to focus on something.

• Kawasaki has a statue in the background of their sound studio, but it is not related to Buddhism.

• Kawasaki is constantly experimenting with different backgrounds for their sound studio, spending hours trying to make it perfect.

Message from Kawasaki's most recent book

• Kawasaki hopes that people realize that it's not about deciding to be remarkable, but rather making a difference and making the world a better place.

• Kawasaki believes that people will think one is remarkable if they make the world a better place, rather than the other way around.

• Kawasaki's focus is not on being remarkable, but on making a difference.

Transcription

Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today's guest is Guy Kawasaki. You may have heard that name. He's very famous in Silicon Valley, especially for his early role and involvement with Apple. He's gone on to do a lot of projects since then. Too many to mention in this short intro, but one of his most recent projects is a very successful 200-plus episode podcast called Remarkable People, and he recently released a new book called Think Remarkable. Based on those interviews, and the main reason that I wanted to get him on the show is because he started surfing at 60. Yes, six zero. Started surfing at 60. So yes, Guy has a very unique perspective on beginning surfing, and I was very excited when he accepted the invite to come on the show, and he did not disappoint. So without further ado, I will fade in my conversation with Guy Kawasaki. Hello, Guy, how are you?

Guy Kawasaki
I'm good. I can hear you now. Yes.

Michael Frampton
Excellent. And I've got you. Right. And it's recording. It looks like all the technical stuff is out of the way.

Guy Kawasaki
Don't get overconfident. The day is young.

Michael Frampton
It sure is. Well, and your lust for surfing. That's also quite young. Starting at 60. My gosh, that is. That's very late in life to start surfing. What inspired you to start?

Guy Kawasaki
What inspired me was that my daughter in particular became an avid and competitive surfer. And I kind of have a different parenting perspective and philosophy. I think many parents, what they do is they inadvertently or advertently force their kids to take up what they're interested in. So if you're a golfer, your kid's golf, you're a surfer, your kid's surf. If you are a, I don't know, physicist, your kids take up physics or violin or whatever. Yeah, in my family it worked differently. So rather than forcing the kids to take up what I loved, they would force me to take up—wait, I said that wrong—rather than I take up what I could—speak English. English is my first language—rather than me forcing them to take up what I love, I let they determine what I should take up based on what they love. And so they loved surfing and they loved hockey. So I took up hockey at 44, and I took up surfing at 60 because that's what my kids are into.

Michael Frampton
Oh, I love that, you're a good dad and that's an awesome philosophy and I actually have the same philosophy. My kids got into football when they were quite young, and I just started playing with them, even though I never grew up playing it. I never liked the game, but now I actually love the game and have a strong appreciation for it.

Guy Kawasaki
So when you say football, you mean American oblong football or European-like round waffle? Oh okay. Okay. Soccer.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki
Because if you took up American football at a late age, it's hard to get 20, 21 other guys out there with helmets killing each other so.

Michael Frampton
Oh yeah. It's a rough sport. I mean, I grew up playing rugby, so I'm no stranger to that sort of world. But, it's not something you do when you're a—or certainly not something you take up when you're older. It's a brutal sport.

Guy Kawasaki
So I think.

Michael Frampton
That thing can be pretty brutal, too. I mean, I'm sure you've had some gnarly wipeouts in your learning curve.

Guy Kawasaki
Well, listen, my sweet spot is maybe 3 to 4 at the most. Okay? Like, I am perfectly happy at 1 to 2 ft. My daughter surfs at Mavericks and stuff, but that's not me, but I will tell you that, there have been times where in, like, a one-foot wave, I fall down and I lose perspective and reference and I'm like paddling, trying to get back up to the surface and I hit my head on the bottom because I was going the wrong way. I've done some very kooky things, I assure you.

Michael Frampton
So I'm interested to know, like, you're a smart guy. I'm sure when you decided to start surfing, what was your first entry point like? Did you get a lesson with someone? Did you just buy a board and jump in? How did you go about it?

Guy Kawasaki
Listen, when you start surfing at 60, well, one would hope that in 60 years you've acquired some kind of street smartness. So you figure out that, you're just not going to go to Costco and buy $150 board and then go out to Mavericks and decide to surf and, you know, with your goggles and your GoPro and your helmet and your zinc on your face. So the first thing I did was I took lessons. I took lessons in Hawaii, I took lessons in India, I took lessons in Santa Cruz. I took lessons at Cowell's and at Jacks. I kind of figured out that, when you start that late, you've got to accelerate the pace. And the way to accelerate the pace is to get instruction. Not by hanging out with Groms all day, trying to surf during the summer.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. So you sort many different opinions on instructions as well. That's a great strategy. Was there one particular lesson that stood out to you?

Guy Kawasaki
Every lesson was difficult. I started paddle surfing. I don't know why I started paddle surfing, but anyway, so I started with paddle boards and then a surf instructor here in Santa Cruz who was coaching my daughter at the time, he definitely established the—should I say—pecking order in surfing, and let's just say that paddle boarding is beneath prone surfing. And so it was a constant humiliation. So at one point I just got tired of being humiliated. And I said, all right, so throw away the paddle, give me a narrow board, and off I go. He, for months, was pushing me into waves, because I don't know, to this day, I think the hardest thing in surfing is knowing where to sit and when to turn. It's just like I barely understand it, and when I'm out there and I'm with experienced surfers and they turn and they catch a wave that I don't even see the wave. I'm like, what are they turning for? And then not only that, they turn and they catch a wave that I barely can see. And they only paddle twice and I'm paddling like freaking 50, 60 times trying to get up there, it's a different world.

Michael Frampton
Oh, it sure is. And you nailed it. I mean, no matter what level of surfer you are, getting into the wave or choosing the right wave and getting into it in the right spot, that's always the hardest part. Because once you're standing up, once you're standing up on the right part of the wave, surfing is really simple and quite easy.

Guy Kawasaki
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a mystery to me. With surfing, there are so many variables, right? I mean, there's the wave. Well, even the wave, there's the height, there's the direction, there's the speed. Are you at the peak, are you on the shoulder. That's just the wave. And then you're going to think of the wind and you got to think of the other kooks in the water and then you got to worry about, we have a ten-inch fin and it's, it's negative one tide and all the kelp is sticking out. So that's not going to work. Well I mean there's so many variables. It's such a cerebral sport.

Michael Frampton
Oh yeah. Now has—and if so how has—surfing made your life better?

Guy Kawasaki
Oh absolutely. I mean, I surf every day. In fact, today I might surf twice. And here's like a Guy Kawasaki typical kind of story. So I have Ménière's disease. Ménière's disease has three symptoms, which is, sporadic attacks of vertigo, tinnitus, which is the ringing in your ear, and hearing loss. And so basically, my ears are all messed up, and it's not surfer ears or anything like that because I have only been surfing ten years, so it's not from surfing. This is a pre-existing condition. So if you said to somebody if you have middle ear issues and vertigo and deafness and tinnitus and all that kind of stuff, why don't you take up ice hockey and surfing? That's the perfect sports for you. The two sports that require balance the most I took up with the bad ears, huh?

Michael Frampton
Wow. So you like when someone tells you you can't do something that you see as a challenge?

Guy Kawasaki
I didn't listen. I mean, people have told me that I cannot do a lot of things, and quite frankly, they were right. So it's not a matter of proving them wrong. I will just say that, like the first time I played ice hockey, and the first time I actually caught a wave and stood up, it was magic. It was like, Holy shit, this is like, where else can you get this feeling? It's like magical to be standing on a wave and somehow, like, you don't have to do anything, like nature is pushing you forward. In my case 12 to 15 miles an hour. I mean and you don't need a hill to do that, like skateboarding when you fall on the pavement, it's a lot different than falling in the water. So, surfing is just magic. It's the most fun I think you can have legally.

Michael Frampton
I agree, and so do all of our listeners. But it's also one of the—it's also one of the most challenging things that you can. I mean, have you—is—that's a good question. Is surfing the most challenging thing you've—that you do?

Guy Kawasaki
It is by far the most challenging thing I have ever tried to learn to do, by far, because there are so many variables. There's so many external variables and then there's your internal, there's like your body weight and your body type and your hip flexibility and, it's a very complex cerebral sport and I don't think people who don't surf, they don't appreciate how difficult it is because like basketball, you run and you jump in the normal course of life, right? I mean, ice hockey is like that, too. You don't skate naturally. I mean, that's something you have to learn the fundamentals. You have to learn. So I think part of the attraction for me, for surfing is that it is so hard. If I became immediately good at it, the thrill would be gone but it's taken ten years. I like my dream. Everybody has to have a dream, right? So my dream is to be able to take four steps and hang ten on the nose. Okay? In ten years, I'm now able to sometimes take two steps. So it's taking me five years per step. So I need another ten years to get the total of four steps. I hope I make it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Well, Jerry Lopez says that the first 20 years of surfing is just to test if you're really interested.

Guy Kawasaki
I interviewed Jerry Lopez for my podcast.

Michael Frampton
I know. I listened.

Guy Kawasaki
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Great. You did a great job.

Guy Kawasaki
Yeah, it's a funny story. You'll appreciate this surfing story. So this weekend we went to a surf meet in Huntington Beach. And on the sidewalk at Huntington Beach, there's like the Hollywood Walk of Fame. It's only the surfing Walk of Fame. And there's these, I think, brass plaques for these famous surfers. Right. So I saw Shaun Tomson's, I saw Layne Beachley, and I saw Jerry Lopez, and I happen to know all three people because of my podcast. I sent them all messages and they all responded, yeah. Shaun Tomson's response was, oh, they spelled my name right.

Michael Frampton
Oh, cool. I interviewed Shaun a while ago for the podcast and actually see quite a couple of similarities between the book he wrote and the book you wrote. You chose not to make it a three-page behemoth full of fluff. And it's such a good book. It's so succinct. And it's the kind of book I'd rather spend 12 hours reading a good book three times, than 12 hours reading a long book once.

Guy Kawasaki
Yeah, I hear you and one of the things I think about many nonfiction books is they take 200 to 300 pages to explain one idea. Right? So like you should—you should make a prototype very quick with the minimum features and get it out there and then if it doesn't succeed, bring it back and change it fast. Well, I just explained a 300-page book about minimum viable product and pivoting. Right? I mean, what else do you need to know about that concept besides what I just explained in 10s?

Michael Frampton
No, I really enjoyed your book. It's definitely one I'm going to go back and reread because it's so succinct.

Guy Kawasaki
I want you to know that I am a much better writer than a surfer, just FYI.

Michael Frampton
Has surfing taught you anything about other aspects of your life?

Guy Kawasaki
Ah, listen, I can interpret almost all of life with using a surfing metaphor. Right? So, one obvious one is you can sit out there in the water looking for that perfect wave all day and never turn and paddle and if you do that, I guarantee you will not catch any waves. Same thing applies to life, right? You can be waiting for that perfect company, that perfect product, that perfect service, that perfect co-founder, that perfect VC and you could, you know, try to make this perfect thing and then that means you will never do anything. Same thing as surfing. Another analogy I would say is that, yes, you try to pick the perfect wave and you turn at the perfect time at the perfect angle and all the perfect stuff. But I think one of the things I learned about surfing is that at some point you turn and burn and then you just need to make that decision, right? Even if it's wrong. Right? You just gotta compensate. You would like to be in the barrel on the face of the wave, but guess what? You're an idiot. You're in the white water, so make the best of it, right? And that's another metaphor for life, is that, you got to make decisions, right?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, you just kind of describe that in the book by saying, just plant many, many seeds because you don't know which one will eventually eventuate, and you catch lots of waves. That's the thing a lot. I've said before on this podcast is that when you watch a surfing movie, you've got to realize that might only be ten minutes worth of surfing that you're watching, but it took a surfer a year worth five hours a day of surfing to get those ten minutes worth of surfing.

Guy Kawasaki
Yeah. You can apply that to almost everything in YouTube, right? So on the YouTube, when they show this is a guy hitting half-court shots, they shot him for five hours to get him making a half-court shot twice. Right. He just goes out and does every one like that? Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
And surfing is a lot about sort of being in the right place at the right time, and when you look at your career, I wonder how much of that's true in your career?

Guy Kawasaki
Oh, my career is more about being in the right place at the right time than it is about being in the right place because of my decision. Okay? I guarantee you that. I call this Guy's golden touch, which is not whatever I touch turns to gold. Guy's golden touch is whatever is gold, Guy touches.

Michael Frampton
I like that.

Guy Kawasaki
So, this is the equivalent of that in a surfing metaphor. Sometimes—and it's happened to me—sometimes you just expect to get clobbered, right? And so you turn your back to the wave and you lean back because you're about to get clobbered. And somehow the wave catches you and you get a ride without even trying to get the ride. Yeah, I'm telling you, a lot of people join companies that they had no freaking idea what it was going to do, and they turned out to be millionaires. Like, I don't know, what's this company Google do? I don't know, they needed a facilities manager and I didn't have a job, so I went to work for Google. I was the first Google facilities manager and now come to find out, my stock is worth $50 million. Yeah. I'm so smart now. There have been waves, I guarantee you, Michael. There have been waves that I caught that I didn't intend to catch.

Michael Frampton
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Michael Frampton
That happens all the time. And then you sort of, you turn up to the beach and without even knowing it's going to be good and it happens to be good. There's luck involved in everything.

Guy Kawasaki
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
How do you define luck?

Guy Kawasaki
I think luck is, getting back to seeds. Luck is planting a lot of seeds, right? I mean, you don't get lucky by staying on the sand. You get lucky by being in the water. You got to plant a lot of seeds and then, even if you're lucky, you have to take advantage of that luck. So you can't be a dumbass. You can't be a lazy schmuck and luck comes upon you and everything just is automatic. Even being lucky, you need to work hard. You need to be prepared. You need to be ready. If your board is not waxed and you're not sitting in the water. Yeah, you could be the most lucky guy in the world. You're still not going to catch the wave.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And you have to be sort of looking for those opportunities as well, don't you?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I remember reading a book about luck and they did a test where they left a $20 bill sort of in the corner next to a sidewalk. And 95% of people just walk straight past. But then the person that noticed it considered themselves lucky, but really they were sort of open to or just being observant and looking for those opportunities.

Guy Kawasaki
So you're saying those people saw it and didn't pick it up or they didn't see it at all?

Michael Frampton
They didn't notice it? Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki
Wow.

Michael Frampton
That wasn't directly in the middle of the sidewalk. Obviously, everyone would see it. But, the corner of it's just sticking out, and if you consider yourself a lucky person, then your peripheral vision is actually more likely to pick up on little things like that.

Guy Kawasaki
I hate to tell you, but this is—it's a related story, not necessarily the same story, but I'll tell you something—to this day, if I were walking down the street and I saw a penny on the ground, I would pick up the penny. I really would. I think that a penny doesn't make a lot of difference to anybody, but okay. But it's just the principle that you should never leave money.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. No, I like that. That's a good metaphor, too. Like, if you're surfing in a crowd and a wave comes your way and it's—you probably should just take it rather than wait for the next one.

Guy Kawasaki
Well, I have to say that, being deaf—I have a cochlear implant—that's like, we can do this interview, but you can't wear a cochlear implant in the water. So being deaf in the water, there are some advantages to that. So like, number one, Jerry Lopez says you should never be talking in the lineup. You should always be focused on surfing. Well, I hardly talk in the lineup because I cannot hear. So there's no sense talking, so that helps. And then let's just say that like every other kook in Santa Cruz, I drop in on people, okay? And then when they yell at me, I cannot hear. It doesn't bother me at all. They can yell all they want. I don't even hear.

Michael Frampton
Interesting. I wonder, do you think that there could be an advantage? Because then, you know it is an advantage.

Guy Kawasaki
Yeah. Because like, if I heard the person yelling at me and telling me to go f myself, then it would get in my head and I'd be pissed off and there'd be an argument. And who knows where that would lead? But now I just like, I'm deaf. I literally—people have been like, jabbering at me and I said I'm deaf. I don't know what you're saying. I just paddle away. So if anybody's listening to this from Santa Cruz and you yell at me and I ignore you, that's what's happening.

Michael Frampton
Do you sometimes purposely take it out when you're doing other things to increase your focus?

Guy Kawasaki
Oh, my implant?

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki
No, I am blessed with a form of OCD that when I get focused on something, whether it's writing or editing or anything like that, I can be anywhere. I can be in the middle seat of Southwest Airlines in row 35, and I can concentrate. It's not a matter of what I hear, so I never have to do that. I just lose touch with reality. It's the same thing when I speak. I have gone on stage with a migraine headache. I've gone on stage feeling sick, but it just takes over me. And I'm just, like, in a zone. Deshaun Thompson zone.

Michael Frampton
Have you always been like that or is that something that you've had to work on and foster?

Guy Kawasaki
I can't remember. I think it just comes with repetition. I don't think I was born like that. I don't think anybody is born like that, but I certainly have it now.

Michael Frampton
Is there a bigger picture behind that though? Like, is there a driving force that sort of allows you to keep trudging forward?

Guy Kawasaki
Well, for a while, I have four kids. So for the longest time, my motivation was four tuitions. Now, as of next week, only one tuition will be in play, so that has reduced the pressure. But I guess I am just driven. I have a high need for achievement. Like this podcast, I do 52 episodes a year with no revenue.

Guy Kawasaki
On paper you'd have to say, Guy, why do you do that? Why do you kill yourself doing a podcast? And I'm just driven. It's just driven by achievement. And in a sense, the same thing applies for surfing. For me, I do a lot of dry land training and stuff because I'm 60. I got to catch up, right? So I can't just get out there and automatically assume everything's going to work. So, the secret to my success in life, surfing, or to the extent that I am successful in surfing, the secret to my life is grit. I am willing to outwork anybody.

Michael Frampton
There's also, if you're doing dry land training, then there's a lot of podcasts as well. There's a lot of preparation that goes into that.

Guy Kawasaki
Yep. Nobody can out-prep me.

Michael Frampton
Oh, okay.

Michael Frampton
I'm interested to know what does your dryland training for surfing look like?

Guy Kawasaki
Oh, okay. I could do even more, but I practice pop-ups. I'm trying to constantly increase flexibility. I do more than anybody I know, but I know I could do so much more. It's just that in the last year or so, this book has just taken over my life, too. But, I'm telling you, I am going to hang ten. I'm going to hang ten and then I'm going to drop dead right after that and everything will be fine.

Michael Frampton
Oh, funny.

Guy Kawasaki
They're just going to get—I’ve seen them take dead bodies off the beach at Jax and the fire department comes and they put you in a little one of those. Is it a sleigh? What do they call it? One of those baskets. They bring the dead body up from the cliff in a basket, that's all. They're going to take me out of Jax, okay?

Michael Frampton
You’re die-happy then?

Michael Frampton
Death on the nose. Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki
He was so shocked. He hung ten. He had a stroke and died.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, well.

Michael Frampton
You get the right wave, get the right board. You'll get there for sure. It's a good goal.

Guy Kawasaki
I have to tell you, though, it's much more likely that I apparently hit my head on the ground and drowned than I hang ten on my last ride.

Michael Frampton
Oh, I've got a feeling that you'll get there.

Guy Kawasaki
Well, yeah, I hope so.

Michael Frampton
So out of all—you’ve done so many podcast episodes, like over 200—is there any commonalities between all of these guests?

Michael Frampton
Oh yeah.

Guy Kawasaki
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in a sense, the commonality with 250 episodes reduced to—yeah, that's 5000 pages of transcripts. So that 5000 pages of transcripts has come down to 170 pages in a book. There's a lot of commonality and the lessons of the book reflect the commonality, and at the highest level, the commonality is that to be remarkable, you need to have a growth mindset. You need to be willing to pay the price and be greedy and finally, you need to be gracious to be remarkable. And that just happens over and over again with those 250 guests.

Michael Frampton
How do you define grit?

Guy Kawasaki
Grit is the ability to do something when you are not necessarily getting positive results and nor do you necessarily enjoy it, but you just are willing to pay the price.

Michael Frampton
So, is there an element of faith or hope that goes with that? Or delusion?

Michael Frampton
In my case, it's a delusion with surfing.

Guy Kawasaki
But you know what? One thing I figured out is it doesn't matter why you're gritty. It's just that you're gritty. You could be stubborn. You could be OCD, you could be delusional. You could be whatever. But as long as you just keep putting it out, that's all that matters.

Michael Frampton
Okay, and then grace, how do you define grace?

Guy Kawasaki
Grace is when you come to this realization that you are successful in life, and you are fortunate because there are teachers and coaches and mentors and bosses. There are people who opened the door for you, and because somebody opened the door for you, you should open the door for somebody else. So it's a sense of moral obligation to the world to pay back society.

Michael Frampton
Okay, how would you define grace in the surfing world?

Guy Kawasaki
I could. Okay, yeah. I could tell you some really great stories here. So at 38, there are some surfers who are really quite good. I would love to be as good as them. And they are so good that they can catch a wave and they can surf the whole face. They can catch it in front of Jack's house, and they could go all the way to like Purves or to like practically the Hook, right? They can take the face the whole way, and some of them do, and you know what? When you're at Jack's and there's a lot of beginners and novices, there are lots of people who are going to catch the wave and get in your way on the face and that's just the way it is at Jack's. Jack's is for kooks and beginners, right? And so these really good surfers, they can take the whole face and they get really pissed off with people and they yell at people and they scream and they push people off and all that, and I just don't understand that. And believe me, I've been one of those people who've been pushed and yelled at. And what I don't understand is like, okay, if you are so freaking good, go to First or Second or go to the Hook, but you're just trying to be a big dog in this little shit pond.

Guy Kawasaki
So like, what is your problem? And like, everybody's out there, they're just trying to have a good time, learn how to surf, catch a few waves. So like, what? Why are you being such an asshole? Then it's like, guess what? There's nobody from the WSL sitting up on the East Cliff looking for people for the WSL. So I hate to tell you, I can drop in on your face and I'm not going to affect your professional surfing career, so just shut up and go to Second or First. That's my attitude. They completely lack grace, and I have a theory that the better you are, the more gracious you are. It's the middle ground, right? So when you're really a beginner and lousy, you don't know what the hell you're doing. When you get kind of good, that's when you figure, I'm the big dog. I can get the face, I can hang ten, I can do cutbacks and all that. But then when you get really, really good, you say, I want to help other people enjoy surfing. And I'm going to help them and coach them and encourage them. You don't yell at them. The really good surfers don't yell at you.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I love that definition and I totally agree. Yep. Joel Tudor is famous for saying that the ultimate goal is Skip Frye.

Guy Kawasaki
Skip Frye was like that?

Michael Frampton
He still is.

Michael Frampton
He's still out there surfing every day. He's in his 80s and he just glides gracefully along on his.

Guy Kawasaki
But does he yell at somebody if a kook dropped in on him? No.

Michael Frampton
No, of course not.

Michael Frampton
He's been surfing so long that you just wouldn't. I think sometimes surfers also—I think a graceful surfer has the sort of demeanor about them that just you would feel bad dropping in on them because they're so graceful and they're not taking every wave. Does that sort of make—yeah.

Michael Frampton
But if you're out there trying to take every wave and yelling at people, you're actually more likely to get dropped in on again and again and again. So thank you. Thank you CCTV.

Guy Kawasaki
Oh, God.

Michael Frampton
I think part of this is a lot of those people, they surfed 20, 30 years ago when there just was one-tenth of the amount of people in the water, and they kind of expect it to be like that still, even though—

Michael Frampton
You're right, you're right. They can go for it. They can drive half an hour and go somewhere else where it's more difficult and where there are less people.

Guy Kawasaki
Half an hour, they could paddle 500 yards to the right and they could be someplace else like that, but I think a lot of those people, they realize that, at Jack's, they stand out, but if they went to First or Second, they would be at the bottom of the pile again, right? And they would be yelled at, not doing the yelling, and they cannot adjust to that.

Michael Frampton
So yeah, that doesn't feed their ego.

Guy Kawasaki
Yeah. The Second Peak is my Mavericks.

Michael Frampton
That's—yup. Okay.

Michael Frampton
So that's grace, and well, I quite like how you've defined compassion as a combination of empathy and grit. I really liked that definition. Can you speak a bit more on that?

Guy Kawasaki
Well, the empathy part is easy, right? I mean, when you think of compassionate people, they can empathize. They can feel what you're feeling. They can understand, they can relate, right? But the difference between empathy and compassion, I think, is that you want to go from empathy to compassion, which is the higher level. It means that you not only feel for the other person, you actually do something. So a compassionate person does something and an empathetic person just feels something, and that's the difference.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. That's—so it comes back to doing again.

Guy Kawasaki
Yep.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki
That's a recurrent theme in my books.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And I also really liked your Ikigai. You sort of—I like how you reframed that.

Michael Frampton
Sort of do what you love, right?

Michael Frampton
And then be willing to improve, to go push through the shit sandwich to improve, but also to not expect to get paid for it.

Guy Kawasaki
Well, see, I think that—now listen. I am Japanese American, but I don't want to give you the impression that I spent 20 years studying with Buddhist monks, and I truly understand Japanese and all that, because I'm just as American as Donald Trump Jr. But I'll tell you something that lots of people define Ikigai as—you draw three circles, which is what you love to do, what you're good at doing, and what you can get paid at, and in the middle of those three is what your Ikigai should be, because you can get paid, you like it, and you're good at it. I disagree with that definition. My definition is that Ikigai means that you are not good at it. You cannot get paid at it, and you may hate it because you're not good and not getting paid at it, but you still do it, and that for me is surfing, right? I'm not good at it. I love doing it. Sometimes I hate it and I'm never going to get paid for it. So if you're under those conditions, if you still surf every day, you could probably bet that it's your Ikigai or something you truly, truly love, because it's not because it's the money. It's not because it's easy. It's only because you love it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I really like that. It's a good twist on—because I was very aware of Ikigai. I think everyone is nowadays. It's become quite part of pop culture, but it was a really good reframing. I really liked that. Allan Langer.

Guy Kawasaki
The psychologist.

Michael Frampton
Yes. How did she change your perspective on things?

Guy Kawasaki
Okay, so Ellen Langer. She made a brilliant observation to me that we spend so much time trying to make the right decision, but what we should do is make our decisions right. And going back to that surfing analogy—so, yeah, spend your whole life or the whole session in the water trying to make the right decision, but what you should really do is turn and burn and make that decision right, which means that you can compensate by turning the board or paddling harder or softer or popping up, fading and then going right, or who knows, right? But Ellen Langer is all about, yes, take your best shot but then make your decision right, and I think that is a very good prescription for how to lead a remarkable life. You've got to make your decisions right.

Michael Frampton
Do you mean by that, as in, once you've made a decision to accept it and sort of trust that it is right?

Guy Kawasaki
Well, I don't know about trust, but I think the reality is that you never can make the exact perfect decision because the future is unknowable and there's so many variables. So I'm not saying that if you got married to somebody and that person is physically abusive—I'm not saying stick in the marriage and make the decision right, okay? There are some things. There are limits to these things, right? But to think that the grass is always greener and to think that perfection lies in the next wave, not this one—I think that's suboptimal. At some point, you just got to make it right.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, so it's kind of about being present really.

Guy Kawasaki
Yes. Yes.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, interesting. Is meditation part of your life?

Guy Kawasaki
No, no. Like, Marc Benioff in his interview talked about meditation and all that. I don't have time for meditation, right? I'm a doer. I'm not a meditator. What can I say? Hmm. Maybe I should meditate more. Maybe I could hang ten.

Michael Frampton
I would argue that you said yourself, earlier that even in the middle seat, in cattle class on an airplane, you have the ability to focus on something.

Michael Frampton
Yes. Most people meditate in order to get more of that, I think.

Guy Kawasaki
Well, then I was born with it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. You're lucky. I see the statue in the background and is Buddhism part of your life?

Guy Kawasaki
No, it's just I am in a closet that I've made into a sound studio, and I wanted to have an interesting background. So, I have tried dozens of things I like. I have this lamp, I have this fake flower. I have fake flowers. I have the lamp, I have bamboo, I have vases, I've tried all kinds of stuff. Yeah, I'm constantly experimenting to get—like, you have that surfboard back there, but I don't have space for a surfboard.

Michael Frampton
So you're a little bit of an interior designer.

Guy Kawasaki
You know what? I don't want to tell you how many hours I have spent trying to make a good background, putting all this soundproof foam, getting this stuff here—like, it would probably be measured in days, in days.

Michael Frampton
Oh, no. It's a good thing. I think it looks good and your voice is coming across with no echo. So, well done.

Guy Kawasaki
Well, I once spent a few weeks trying to make sure that the video and audio were perfectly synced because I was getting a case where the audio was about two frames behind the video, and the way you test that is you do something like you clap and you see when your hands hit, and then you look and you see if there's a spike of the clap matching that exact moment, right? And it wasn't. It was two frames off, and that just freaking drove me crazy, and then finally I found something that you can add frames of delay for the video or, I don't know, vice versa, whatever it was. Yeah, I'm a little nuts that way.

Michael Frampton
Oh, you got to get that sort of stuff right though. I think it does matter. Is that sort of a bit of a perfectionism that you speak about there?

Guy Kawasaki
A bit. I'd say there's a freaking wheelbarrow full.

Michael Frampton
If there was one message that you hoped someone got out of your most recent book, what is that?

Guy Kawasaki
I hope people realize that it's not about deciding you want to be remarkable. The way it works is you make a difference. You make the world a better place. And if you make the world a better place, then people will believe you are remarkable. So it's not a which came first. It's just an order. You make the world a better place. People will think you're remarkable. So the focus is not on being remarkable as much as making a difference.

Michael Frampton
I love that. Guy, thank you so much. Congratulations on.

Guy Kawasaki
I might go surfing a second session.

Michael Frampton
Awesome.

Guy Kawasaki
Thank you.

Michael Frampton
I'll have links to all of, everything of Guy in the show notes. Uh, thanks for tuning in, everyone.

Guy Kawasaki
All right. Thank you very much for having me. All the best to you.

Michael Frampton
All right. Thank you, Guy. Awesome. Really appreciate your time. Thank you. Bye bye.

97 Guy Kawasaki - Tech Guru Discovers Surfing at 60

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

What if true health, strength, and wisdom didn’t come from hustle culture—but from saltwater, stillness, and honest self-reflection?

In this powerful episode, Nic Laidlaw opens up about the healing power of surfing, parenting three boys, and his transformation from competitive surfer to movement mentor and retreat leader. Whether you're recovering from injury, rethinking your lifestyle, or questioning modern definitions of masculinity, Nic’s insights will shift your perspective on what it really means to be a healthy human.

• Learn how Nic recovered from a major knee injury using holistic tools like breathwork, nutrition, and cold therap

• Discover why nature—not hustle—should be your foundation for health, strength, and masculinity

• Explore the value of surf retreats, mentorship, and spiritual connection in shaping the next generation

Tap play now and discover how to build deeper health, purpose, and stoke—through surfing, self-awareness, and slowing down.

Nic's website: https://www.balancedstudio.com.au

Nic's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/balancedstudio/?hl=en

Nic's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzvueZRjFkiDFuk1Ial0Oqg

Key Points

• Influence from studying with Paul Cech and the impact of his holistic and nuanced approach to health and wellness.

• Importance of leadership by example, particularly in parenting, as emphasized by Nic and his approach to mentoring young men.

• Nic's recent knee injuries, recovery process, and the accelerated healing regimen he followed, including physical therapy and lifestyle adjustments.

• Nic's approach to running health retreats, emphasizing holistic wellness, connection with nature, and the importance of nutrition.

• The impact of influential figures like Tom Cowell on Nic's life and work, highlighting the value of mentorship and community in personal growth.

• Discussion on the crisis of masculinity and the importance of celebrating and teaching traditional masculine values in a balanced and healthy way.

• Reflection on big wave surfing as an initiation into manhood, emphasizing the lessons learned from pushing personal limits and confronting fears.

• Nic's journey from competitive surfing to establishing his own studio, driven by the desire to surf every day and work with people. 

Outline

Surfing and Personal Growth

• Nic shared their transformative experience of going to Hawaii at 17, which significantly impacted their perspective and relationship with nature.

• Nic emphasized the powerful influence of the ocean and nature on personal growth and self-awareness.

Surf Mastery Coaching Program

• Michael introduced a six-week online coaching course focused on the fundamentals of surfing, aimed at self-taught intermediate surfers and applicable to all levels.

• The course is a summary of lessons learned through years of experience as a surf coach and personal surfing journey.

Surfboards and Surfing Locations

• Nic and Michael discussed various surfboards, including Gary McNeil boards and their personal experiences with different models.

• They shared experiences surfing in locations like San Diego, Encinitas, and the east coast of Australia, highlighting the unique characteristics of each location.

Paul Cech's Influence and Teachings

• Nic discussed the impact of studying with Paul Cech, emphasizing the importance of foundational principles in health, movement, and lifestyle.

• Nic highlighted the concept of being a 'wounded healer' and the need for a nuanced, non-linear approach to health and wellness.

Parenting and Leadership

• Nic and Michael discussed the importance of leading by example in parenting, emphasizing that children emulate parental behavior more than verbal instructions.

• They shared their experiences and philosophies on raising children, including the value of exposing them to nature and fostering a love for the ocean.

Injury Recovery and Health Practices

• Nic detailed their recovery process from a knee injury, including a full MCL tear and partial ACL and PCL tears, and the importance of consistent movement and health practices.

• They discussed the use of ice baths, saunas, breathwork, and nutrition in their recovery regimen.

Retreats and Health Optimization

• Nic explained their approach to running health and wellness retreats, focusing on embodiment of principles, connection with nature, and community.

• They discussed the integration of movement, nutrition, and breathwork in their retreats, aiming to help participants optimize their health and well-being.

Influences and Mentorship

• Nic mentioned influential figures in their life, including Paul Cech, Ido Portal, and Tom Cowell, highlighting their impact on Nic's personal and professional growth.

• They emphasized the importance of seeking out mentors and the value of community and support in personal development.

Masculinity and Cultural Balance

• Nic and Michael discussed the crisis of masculinity and the importance of celebrating and balancing masculine and feminine strengths within society.

• They highlighted the role of nature and physical challenges, such as big wave surfing, in the initiation and growth of young men.

Personal Aspirations and Lifestyle

• Nic shared their aspiration to surf every day and the importance of carving out a lifestyle that allows for personal passions and family well-being.

• They discussed the concept of true wealth as health, exercise, and organic food, rather than material possessions.

Transcription

Nic Laidlaw
My biggest one was going to Hawaii when I was 17. I felt like I just came back a different person. Because it was in that six weeks, there's just so many times where I pushed myself beyond where I thought I'd go. The relationship that I formed with the ocean, it never failed to make me feel so small in the scheme of things that it feels like it really puts you in your place. So that's like, I'll speak of that with my relationship to the ocean and to nature in general. It's like, it's so powerful that it's hard to actually measure how powerful it is. But you don't know until you're in an ocean that's big enough to squish you if it wanted to.

Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. That is a couple of quotes from Nic Laidlaw, today's guest. Nic is a health coach, a movement coach, a ridiculously good surfer, a father, and a man full of wisdom. We discuss health and wellness, Paul Cech, leadership, parenting, connecting with nature, injury recovery—knees in particular—health retreats, mentors, masculinity, big wave surfing as an initiation to manhood, plus much more. You can follow and find out more about Nic at Balanced Studio on Instagram and balancedstudio.com.au. And of course, links to all that in the show notes. But before I fade in that interview, I want to let you guys know about my coaching program which starts next week. It's a six-week online coaching course teaching the fundamentals of surfing, mainly targeted to the self-taught intermediate but applicable for all levels. And it's a summary of all of the lessons that I've learned through doing this podcast and working on my own surfing and as a surf coach over the last 10 years. Spaces are limited. It is already half full, so if you are interested, to find out more just go to surfmastery.com, and of course links in the show notes. But without further ado... I will give you my conversation with Nic Laidlaw. Take care, man. Good, how are you?

Nic Laidlaw
Good thanks, I recognise that surfboard.

Michael Frampton
Far, yeah.

Nic Laidlaw
Gary McNeil? Is that right?

Michael Frampton
It sure is. A surfer's eye is always drawn to that.

Nic Laidlaw
Shape. Yeah, 100%. And then that right-hand rip bowl in the background. Ha.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that board... It's been a while, bro. It's been ages. I was living in Avalon when I bought that board. It was... yeah. It is a gem, you know, it was just the stock board. It was just on the shelf at Ripco Narrabeen.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, I'll get one day again, McNeil, for sure. I love all the sacred geometry and all the principles he speaks about. It's so.

Michael Frampton
Awesome. Yeah. I actually had a different one that I bought from Patagonia in San Diego, a different model, slightly bigger one. And I left it on the sidewalk outside. I was surfing Swamis in San Diego. I was getting changed and it was busy and I had other boards in the car. And I drove off and I said, no, I left that board on the sidewalk. Did a U-turn, came back, it was gone. So someone out there—however long it took me to drive around the block. But you know what it's like, you know what it's like, you can't just do it. There's a...

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, you got to get back on the highway pretty...

Michael Frampton
Much. Okay, yeah, you got it. So it would have taken me at least seven minutes probably.

Nic Laidlaw
That's awesome. Devastating.

Michael Frampton
So someone out there has a Gary McNeil that they picked up for free. I hope they're enjoying it.

Nic Laidlaw
Guiltily shredding it. Those bastards. That would suit the energy of those waves over there, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Hey. Yeah, for sure. Everyone's into alternative boards over there.

Nic Laidlaw
Well, it seems a bit, especially that part of the coast in like from Carlsbad or even a bit further down there. It feels like it's just a bit softer, maybe. Or maybe that was just the energy that I got when I was there. But it just feels like a little bit slopier, a little bit slower moving waves than what I'm used to.

Michael Frampton
It's different. Perhaps. Yeah, it's definitely a bit more gentle than the east coast of Australia. User-friendly is a bit of a word. Yeah, that's...

Nic Laidlaw
It. Yeah, I reckon. Sick fun. I had so many fun waves down there around Encinitas and even further towards Mexico. Yeah, so much fun.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's paradise around that part of the world.

Nic Laidlaw
It is. It is. It's a really good setup.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, not just for surfing, just the vibes and everything.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah. No, my wife Maddie and I traveled there because I went there to San Diego to study with Paul Cech. And so we spent like six weeks just traveling up the coast and back down again and it was so much fun. We both had heaps of fun waves. I took, so we took...

Michael Frampton
What board were you riding? And you were surfing over there then?

Nic Laidlaw
Because it wasn't just a surfing trip, we did like state parks and went into the cities and just explored around. So we took two boards. I took a like a 6'2", kind of thick single fin. And then we had a five and really wide, really flat twinny that could be converted into a quad. So it was kind of like Maddie and I could both ride either of those boards. Yeah. And I spent most of the time on the twinny that could be converted into a quad. Frank Tachibana shaped both of them, and he's a mate of mine and hand-shaped them both. And they're fun boards. I still ride his Fishes and his Shorties, so they're epic. And I probably have gone a bit—if I was there again, I'd probably ride more of like a long fish, I reckon. For those points around Santa Cruz and stuff. Yeah, good call. Pleasure Point. Yeah, I'd probably have a long fish these days if I was back there again. I did some body surfing too. We had such fun, just a fun time. Yeah. California was really good to...

Michael Frampton
Us. Yeah. So you were there doing the Paul Cech stuff. What's the biggest takeaway from doing the Paul Cech stuff?

Nic Laidlaw
Well, every time I've studied with Paul Cech face-to-face... He kind of reiterates a similar sentiment of like, you hear... because you want to help people and you want to help, you know, with the healing process of people or the optimization of your client's health. But what we're really here for is, you know? And so he pretty much uses the foundation principles that he teaches, whether it's about the scientific movement principles or whether it's the holistic lifestyle principles. The principles of health are very basic. It's like the mental, emotional, and the thought process. It's hydration. It's the rhythms that we sleep in. It's the breathing. It's the movement. It's the nutrition. That's our chemistry. So he'll kind of lay down those foundations and see how it applies to you with a series of, you know, sharmatic work, breath work, infant development, movement patterns, obviously nutrition, gut health and all of those things and just applies protocols to you and asks a lot of questions of you in order to understand your own physiology a lot better. And then... yeah, then the idea is to pretty much open the textbook when you get home and see how you can further delve into those principles and share them with your clients. So that was a long way of answering. I think the biggest takeaway is like full acceptance that we're all wounded healers, you know? So like that's... and he exemplifies that with every word that he speaks, you know? So that we're all on our own journey and that we don't need to be like perfect or we don't need to know everything in order to help other people. Another thing is it's a very nuanced world and we need to stop thinking in a linear way—pathway—just like we need to stop moving in a linear pathway. And how you do anything is how you do everything, so just broadening our ideas and our headspace to a more nuanced existence. And then, you know, that was in 2015–16. Since then we had children, crazy bushfires in Australia, we had all the whole COVID debacle, and it's like that really put me in good stead just to be able to sit back and watch and just be accepting of other people's views and behaviors, whether it's along the same line of my thinking or not. You know, it's just that there's a... everything starts with Paul Cech with the yin and the yang. And that's why I've got that on the logo of my own business as well, because it's such a broadly painted brush, that symbol, that symbology. But it's so deep in its essence that you just cannot have one existing, dancing, coexisting without the other. You know, we need the sun to be setting for us to rest and regenerate so that we can go and get it the next day. We need the winter cooler months so we can go and really send it and get, you know, put ourselves on the line and get pitted and have a really nice rugged winter. Then we can come into summer and just cruise. And, you know, we need the fiery relationships in order to cater to our softer side. Like it's all... it's like a fully embodied concept. And he's spent a lot of his life studying the yin-yang philosophy. And I just think that applies to everything, you know? And so he's imparted that in a really broad way to me just to help me being less dogmatic. I think as humans, we're drawn to like wanting a parameter to work or work with or to work to have us guide us. He just blows that out the window and is like, "No, sorry. It's not that easy." You need to be—it's not need to be—but it might be helpful to be more open. More open than that, you know, less discerning than that. You know, discernment is certainly something he's very good at, because he doesn't suffer fools. But at the same time, it's just like, it's not as... it's not the easiest path to walk and live and talk and, you know, with a truly open mind and an open approach and a curious approach to things. But, from the living example of how I'm trying to do it and how I'm trying to impart that on my children. And to a certain degree, the studio that I run. You know? And it's not as easy for people to grasp and get in the door straight away. Or for kids, you know, especially, you know, kids, they want discernment. They need discernment sometimes. And that's important. But overall, giving them less direct answers and encouraging them to think for themselves, I think it's going to... we'll see. They're only four now, but we'll see. I think it's going to foster, you know, a broad creative mind.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, well, what's inherent in the way Paul Cech is—well, what he imparted to you and his students—was the necessity for leadership by example. Whereas you're there to work on yourself first and foremost.

Nic Laidlaw
100%, dude.

Michael Frampton
And that's with kids. It doesn't matter what you tell your kids, does not matter what you tell them. They'll do what you do—monkey see, monkey do.

Nic Laidlaw
A hundred percent. They hear you to a degree, but they see you more than anything. They see it, you know, and it's, you know, how you treat, how the house, how the vibration of the household is, you know, how you treat other people in the house, you know, how I, how my wife and I relate and connect, and that's what they're seeing. And then how we connect to them, that's what they see and feel. You know, that's their language of like, of a reality to a certain extent, you know? Your parents are just everything for those first, those formative years until you start getting out in the world more. And you're kind of demonstrating what's, you know, like I hate to say it, but it's like what truth is. Because even if it might not be the most correct in the scheme of things, or it might not match up with other people's value systems, that's all they have as their examples in front of them. And so this, I remember, you know, I just thought everything my parents told me as a kid was gospel. And then you start seeking out mentors, you start seeing what your mates are doing, what their parents are doing. And it's like, okay. And the world begins to broaden naturally, which is great. But at a very young age, you kind of need that just solidarity from your folks, your parent or your parents, just to... yeah, show you the way, as in... not by what you say, but by the way that I live.

Michael Frampton
Yes. Yeah. So, yeah. So three boys?

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah. Three big... big energy boys.

Michael Frampton
Yep. That's something, that's another passion we share.

Nic Laidlaw
Yes. You got... you do have three boys?

Michael Frampton
All boys? Yeah, three boys.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah. Yeah, right. Wow. It's wild. And how old are yours?

Michael Frampton
So 12, nine, and eight.

Nic Laidlaw
Wow, bro. That's... they're four and a half.

Michael Frampton
Amazing. And how old are yours now?

Nic Laidlaw
They're turning five this year. Yeah. Yeah, so we had them all at once.

Michael Frampton
Yes. Triplets. That's awesome.

Nic Laidlaw
I know, dude. It has been absolutely nuts. You know? These last five or six years since it all went down and we found out that we were having triplets and then we were having three boys. And it's like, wow, I feel like I'm just landing now. To a degree, it's still landing. I still can't believe it. But then there's some moments where you're just like, look how big they are. We went surfing together on the weekend and had so much fun. I got down there and I'm like, I got to go run, grab my board up on the hill. And just getting on, you know, having them on the front of the board and pushing, like getting paddling the waves together and just like watching their little, you know, their bodies trying to stand up and trying to grapple with it, and then watching the other two on the shore, just getting smashed and just coming up. They're just so... I think because I haven't necessarily got them surfing early, but I've got them in the ocean early, and they're just, they've got their little life jackets on, their weddies, and they just, like, they just get so pumped on the shorey and they just love it, you know? It's... I think it's been demonstrated from early on that the ocean's pretty safe for them. Now they're so confident. I'm trying to teach them a bit more respect because they're so little still. But they've always just felt safe with me and Maddie in the ocean. So they don't mind getting a pounding. And I just think that's going to set them up so well if they do decide to surf when they're a bit older. Just to not be too adverse to coming unstuck or getting flogged every now and then.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, and that's the right attitude. As long as they feel comfortable at the beach, I think that's enough. If you're a surfer and you have kids, that's the bar. Just have them enjoy the ocean or the beach itself.

Nic Laidlaw
Exactly. Just enjoying nature. We spend just as much time up at our national, you know, West Head, the national park in Sydney. We spend just as much time up there getting in the bush and getting in the creek there as we do the ocean. But more than that, yeah, for one thing, I'd love them to just feel comfortable and love the ocean, whether they surf or not. But more than even expanding upon that, I just want them to be in awe of nature, just like me and Maddie are, just like me and my wife are, you know, just because it gives us so much, you know. So to form that relationship from an early age, I think, yeah, they're doing pretty well.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I'm reading a book by Steven Rinella about getting kids more into nature. It's really...

Nic Laidlaw
Good. Cool. And I bet there's a lot of practices or ideas that you've probably already implemented that you'll be like giving yourself a bit of a pat on the back.

Michael Frampton
Definitely. But then a lot of different things, even just like you're saying, like your kids should know the species of every flora and fauna in your backyard, for example.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, for sure.

Michael Frampton
Like just something as simple as that just helps them engage with that little part of their nature on a deeper level. Because, you know, you and I, we have access to a decent vehicle in nature, but he's speaking to people that have an apartment in New York, you know, where they live.

Nic Laidlaw
Absolutely, I think that's where you start, you know? For sure, because that's realistic. But I love that concept as well, and it makes me think, you know, I'm sure everyone's got, your three kids have got their own flavors and things that they're drawn to more or less, but one of our boys, River, he's just so into animals, creatures, nature, and he wants to know every bird that's around, and he does know every bird that's around. It's the same with other ground animals. When we go down south, and wallabies, the kangaroos and stuff, he just rocks, you know, like there's something innate in some of us that just are drawn to these creatures, and it really feeds this hunger he's got for knowledge without him knowing that it's a hunger for... I love that.

Michael Frampton
Knowledge? Yeah. I love that.

Nic Laidlaw
Pretty epic.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. So how's... what have you been up to surfing-wise? You're still surfing heaps?

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, well, I'm actually in week 10 of a full MCL tear and a partial ACL and PCL tear. So my whole knee—ACL at the front, I know you know—but ACL at the front, MCL is the inside of the knee, and then the back of the knee. So I had a jiu-jitsu accident, I'll call it, when sparring with another member of the gym. And... it's just super unfortunate what happened, but essentially I hyperextended my knee and just heard a myriad of pops. And so I was just completely out for a while. But in saying that, just this weekend gone by, I had my first... I'm not meant to surf till like week 16, so I'm hoping my physio is not going to hear this, but I got to week 10 and I did. On Sunday morning, I woke up and North Ave, like where I live, there's this little left hand that when the bank's good—the sand's really good at the moment—just breaks so far out, just tapering down the beach. And I was just, the last two weeks, I'm like, I'm feeling dangerously good, you know? And I know the ligament's healed because I know how to test it and I can feel it. There's still a bit of muscle imbalance and I'm still getting my range back, but I know that the ligament's healed and I've been training my ass off, you know? To get back in the ocean. Because you know what? As soon as this accident happened, I was on the deck and I've been loving my jiu-jitsu, like doing juey as much as I've been surfing, you know? But as soon as that accident happened, I was just longing for surfing. And I just felt devastated about... not about jiu-jitsu, not about even the work implications—they came later—but like, being a provider and having to run two businesses and kind of keep that going was one thing as well. But like the thing that came to my heart as soon as I did the injury was just like, I love surfing and autumn's around the corner. And I was just devo, you know? So I worked my ass off when it was time to train. And I got to the beach the other day and North Ave looked really fun and really little. And I was like, I'm just going to have a little stretch on the beach and see how I feel. And it felt good. And I was like, I'm going to go for a jog and just see how I get to, you know, like jog from one end of the beach and like start kicking my... like doing, getting my knees high, starts opening my hips. And I'm like, it feels pretty good. I'm like, I'm just going to park this idea and see what happens. And then later that day, my dad calls me. He's like, "Hey, do you want me to take the kids for a few hours? We're free." I was like, that's exactly what I want you to do. So I put my knee brace on and got out there on a longboard. And then I surfed for three days consecutive. It was just so fun. Like, fucking hell, it feels so... when you haven't been... on a wave going fast. I was riding my 10-footer, like my big wave board. And I was just trimming, but it just felt... so, like, made me so giddy. It was just the best. So yeah, so I'm just reentering the ocean and I'm loving it, bro. But yeah, before that I was surfing a bunch, but training, jiu-jitsu, parenting, running the business and... but this has just given me... and yeah, I can be complacent when the waves are small or when the waves are shitty and stuff. Like I felt that over the last few years and just kind of hang out for doing strike missions down the coast. And all those kind of things. But since this injury, I'm like, I just... all I want to do is surf, you know? Whether it's one foot or 12 foot, I just want to be out there, you know? So yeah. I've got an even new kind of surfing that's been there for me, you know, my whole life in any instance. And this 10 weeks out, it's just really, like, galvanized how much I... how good the ocean is to me and just the relationship that I want to continue having with it, you know? Just so nice. So I'm frothing, dude. Just back in the water and I'm frothing.

Michael Frampton
Well, that's good to hear, man. And I love your honesty around how surfing was like your first thought. Like... and you're motivated. Like it's honest and it's true, you know? And it's... I mean, that's what motivated you to do, I'm guessing, an hour and a half at least worth of movement every day to keep the blood flow and the healing juices going to the right area. And that 16 weeks that the physio gave you is based upon people doing 10 minutes a day, not two hours a day. So, you know, of course your healing is going to be quicker. Yeah.

Nic Laidlaw
It really does. Without being arrogant, it does feel like that, you know. And I've had just up to like 90 days in a row in the ice bath. Having like, you know, three saunas a week, icy every day, breathing, meditating, moving, you know, and just eating shmiko. And yeah, it's great. It was just a really good thing to get me on the trajectory, like to just realign your trajectory of just like good, clean living, you know?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I mean, if you're in the NRL, it would have been six weeks before you were back to playing because you would have been on the compression machines, you would have been ice, hot-cold therapy, multiple massages a day, chef. Yeah. You know, you would have healed even faster. Those guys heal ridiculously fast because of their access to modern technology.

Nic Laidlaw
It's true. Yeah. And I really invested in it because health's number one. Without my vessel, it's like I'm not... you know, it's a lot, it's challenging to do what I do for a living and everything. But yeah, that's it. I was getting treatments every week. You know, I was getting either physio or osteo and massage every week just to keep my pelvis aligned, keep my back feeling good. All of those things. So stoked with how it's all gone, man.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I feel you on that. I had my ACL surgery back in 2002.

Nic Laidlaw
Yes, I remember you talking about.

Michael Frampton
This. Yeah, been through the knee stuff a lot. And I just recently had to go to the specialist about six months ago because of knee pain come back and it's bone on bone now, which is typical, you know, for if you have a... you know, you get about 20 years out of an ACL surgery before your cartilage wears out just because of those extra little movements that happen. It's back foot.

Nic Laidlaw
So intricate, isn't it? Was it your back foot or front foot? Makes it harder. I'm lucky, unfortunately, it was my front foot. So yeah, you would have just done a lot more torsion to that.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Exactly. But you'd be surprised what your body responds to, you know. Even though the cartilage is not there, scar tissue forms. So it's not literally bone on bone unless you do too much. And that scar tissue, if you do more work than the scar tissue has time to heal over, then that's when inflammation really starts to come back. So I find if I just worked on my balance, I worked on my balance and up and just backed off how much surfing I was doing.

Nic Laidlaw
Just didn't... just stabilize, was cranked equilibrium.

Michael Frampton
And it's sort of... it's found its... yeah, it feels like it did years ago. It's fine.

Nic Laidlaw
That's great. And the body's incredible, how it adapts as well. It's like, I don't think—because I chose not to get surgery on the MCL. ACL is different, I believe. But I chose not to get surgery on my injury, and it's like thinking about it and discussing it with my osteo, it's like it wouldn't... it's not going to look good on an MRI ever again, I don't think, but the tissue has an amazing capability to reorganize itself and restructure itself to the imposed demands, right, that we put on it. And if we can do that in an intelligent way, it's like the body is actually a healing machine. It's made to heal. It's not going to be symmetrical, but we're not symmetrical. So it has that way of adapting and healing pretty...

Michael Frampton
Well. Not only is it made to heal, but even something like if you'd torn your ACL completely, that doesn't heal.

Nic Laidlaw
But that...

Michael Frampton
Doesn't, right? Yeah, no, there's no blood supply. So it doesn't. However, there's arguments to saying yes, you know, if you get ACL reconstruction, it's a false ligament in terms that it's there structurally, but it doesn't give any proprioceptive feedback. Right. So you're sacrificing. If you don't get that surgery, then essentially there's less trauma on the knee because you don't have to go through surgery. Yeah. So there's less scar tissue. So there's more other ways of propriocepting the already damaged knee. So a lot of people just choose not to get their ACL reconstructed nowadays. And they have, as long as they keep it strong, then they have great outcomes.

Nic Laidlaw
Every day is leg day. No, I had this... well, this... but one of the specialists I saw—I had to see a few specialists until I got the right answer that I wanted to hear—but one of the specialists I saw was... he's Alex Nichols. But he's got this knee... kind of this knee institute, I think you'd call it, but you go—I went in there and there's like more space for rehab than there is... it's a surgery, but there's more... the gym area and the rehab and the physio space is much bigger than the couple of offices and the surgery room they have. And I'm like, this is a good sign. And he's doing rehabilitative therapy—ACLs without surgery and MCLs, and even PCL, the back one, is a bit of a gray area. But yeah, he's trying to do as little surgery as possible because of what you mentioned—proprioception, healing, and actual trauma to the joint. So yeah, it's good. It's a good way to... I was actually—because that was a very medical kind of place that I went to—but it was really that. You know, I was stoked to see that, you know?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, and he's probably stoked to have you as a client, because some people probably just go in there, "Just operate, mate. I don't want to..."

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, just do it. He's a frother. He was really good, actually.

Michael Frampton
Nice. So since last time we spoke, I think you've started doing retreats, right?

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, we've been doing retreats for a while.

Michael Frampton
Tell me about those.

Nic Laidlaw
So they're not surf-specific, but actually I'm going to—we're kind of bringing some more surf-specific retreats. So I've got a little gym where I work, and next door to that, we've got like a little recovery room, a sauna—or we've got two recovery rooms now—sauna, ice baths. And so people come in generally on the hour, you know, so they'll come in. I just had—just before I spoke to you—I had an hour client and we're working with her. She's got a bit of back pain at the moment. And we're working at just bringing up the joint. And in that time, we're speaking about, you know, how's the gut feeling, how's the gut health, what else is happening in the life that might be kind of another stressor on the body. And in that time, we squeezed all that in and then the hour is done and it's like, "All the best for the next week. You got this," you know, which everyone has that power. I love the way that we can serve people in that way. And then the other element is people come in, do some breath work. They have an icy, a sauna, and then they go on. That's another thing. But what I love doing more than anything is like having some time to fully embody all the principles that I live by and that I teach. Not just have them in theory, you know? So instead of having someone for an hour, we've got someone together for three or four nights. And in that time, we're working with the cycles of the day. So from sunrise, we're up and we go have nice early nights. Generally, we go down when the sun's gone down. Depending on what season it is depends on the food that we cook people, depends on the style of movement that I'm going to teach people. And depending on the crew there, there's always this great link of people there that kind of, like, make it a special time as well. So you get to kind of have this element of connection with yourself and with each other. Connection to your food, which is the biggest thing, which I think a lot of people take shortcuts with. And I'm really passionate about good nutrition and just like good eating environment and good produce. You know, like I can't... yeah. Just like getting really good, clean produce into you is just something I couldn't stress enough. And all of these modalities combined together is what I feel we're about—more than just... you know, I'm known for like a movement guy, and I teach movement because it's like in a little studio. That's what we've got time for. And I'll talk about the other principles. But when you've got someone for a couple of days, you can really embody all the principles and say, it's not too much of an ask to go for a three-hour bushwalk and do some Tai Chi out there. Or it's not too much of an ask to say, "Hey guys, I'm going to teach you Tai Chi. Seven out of the 10 people want to go for a surf tomorrow morning, so we're going to go for it. Go down to the beach in the morning, do some breath work, have a stretch and then go surfing. If you're not wanting to go for a surf, you can have a bushwalk or whatever." And now I'm attracting more and more people that like to surf. So they get more and more surf- and salty-orientated, which I love because I love—I wouldn't call myself a surf instructor or anything—but I love taking people surfing, especially from the beginner to intermediate. Like I feel like it's really... a really nice opportunity to give people like the rite of passage of surfing and the culture and like the etiquette and all of those. And just using the ocean in a really like reciprocal way. So that's just the surfing element. But yeah, I love running retreats. So we run two retreats each year and every retreat we do is like, "That was the best one ever," you know? So that's something that my wife and I are working towards building upon and, you know, getting a bit of land down on the South Coast and having like a live-on retreat. Like that's our end goal kind of thing. Wow. So yeah, I feel like it's a really... beautiful way to be able to share what I have to share. Like in face-to-face, in person, you know, a couple of days to get to know each other, get to know their systems and offer what I can do to help, you know. Another thing that you learn with Paul Cech is there's no frigging answers. You're not like healing people. You're actually just asking questions. So I just, my biggest—the biggest thing I could offer—is just be a really good listener and help other people to tune into their own systems because I can lend you my expertise and that's one thing, but like innately, we all know how to... kind of how to look after ourself and how to heal ourself. It's often just about quietening the... all the other stimulus around us, I think.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, you're asking the right questions. Ask everyone if they know what a good diet is and most people... will say they might not have as much knowledge as you or I, but they certainly know how to eat better than they currently are.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah. And they know what makes them feel... yeah. They know what makes them feel shit-ass. They know what makes them feel tired the next day. You know, we know those behaviors and that's okay to do them. But at least we can't kind of bullshit ourselves. You know, if you ask the right questions and poke into the blind spots sometimes, it can be really...

Michael Frampton
Illuminating. Sometimes I feel people are on the fence. They're like, "Yeah, I really want to train and eat better and have a go at this health lifestyle thing." But then it comes to Friday night and their friends are saying, "Come on, stuff that, let's go out for a drink." And they do that. But if they have the opportunity to get together with other like-minded individuals for four days...

Nic Laidlaw
Exactly, dude.

Michael Frampton
Then they can dive into it and you build... I'm sure there's all sorts of WhatsApp chat groups and friends are made.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, exactly. And then it's like it makes it totally permissible to go and have a blowout and really enjoy that blowout. And then get back on the program, you know, because it's like, you just need to make some sub—I wouldn't even call it a suboptimal choice. I just call it, if you do, if it comes from the right place, going out and having it, having a blowout and eating rubbish and drinking too much, whatever it is that you decide to do, I'm all for that if that's for you. But if you love yourself through it, you know, like really enjoy it. Like Maddie, my wife, and I on the weekend—this is pretty like, we're pretty soft in the scheme of things—but it's like Maddie's been like really looking after her health and diet and she's like no sugar lately at all and it's been... she's been feeling great for it. But Easter comes around and she's like, will I, won't I? But it's like, if you're going to do it, fully and love yourself for it. You know, like love every moment of it. And then you'll get the feedback from your body that it's time to get off that train. But what I suggest is not to half in it and feel guilty about it. Just do it and love yourself through it. And then it naturally comes to an end instead of this like, I shouldn't be doing this. And then it just creates a cycle. It can create a cycle. We can tell ourselves some crazy stories.

Michael Frampton
Man, I love chocolate.

Nic Laidlaw
Dude, I love chocolate. That's like... I love coffee, but like, I think if I had—they're the two biggest things, you know—but if it's chocolate or if I had to choose one, I'm going to be chocolate. It's so good.

Michael Frampton
Same. Yeah.

Nic Laidlaw
It's so good. Yeah, I'll have a long black most days.

Michael Frampton
So are you a regular customer? Coffee drinker?

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah. I'm pretty—I am pretty sensitive to coffee. And since we had the boys, you know, then you go—now we're sleeping great, but like, it did... it's taken us a while, you know, to get them all on the program to freaking sleeping all night. And I think the more tired I am, the more I need to be wary of coffee, if that makes sense. And the more you want it. But I'm quite a sensitive person, so it can make me freaking pretty antsy if I have it and I don't have the reserves to be able to metabolize it. Yeah. So I do drink coffee. Like there's often—like often I'll have a day or two off a week, just depending on how I'm feeling. If I'm feeling tired and wired... and often it's funny, hey, it's often on a Monday, because I just—Thursday I pretty much switch off. I just get my training done on Thursday, clients, but then I don't really think about work too much until the Monday. And it seems to be like you get to—because we're so busy with the kids—then you get to Monday and you're like, holy shit, like it's compounded. I've got a lot to do this week. And often that'll be the day that I'm like, I don't need a coffee. Because that's going to frazzle me. You know, it's about just, you know... So Monday is often a day I'll have off from coffee. Because it just makes me a bit antsy.

Michael Frampton
Obviously, Paul Cech's been a big influence. Who else has been influencing you a lot recently? Are you doing any more study?

Nic Laidlaw
Not actively studying at the moment. I did my stint—big stint—with Paul Cech, you know. That's the foundation of my... you know, of a lot of the things that I share. And then we studied with Ido Portal—he's a movement guy—Fighting Monkey. They're like athletic development. They do performing arts. They're freaking amazing. And they teach you a lot about improvisation and learning the elastic structure of your body. And they have a really deep philosophy behind it, which I love. So that in the movement world, that's kind of like the base. And then—and it's like—it's funny, the first person that came to mind when you said that was... when you asked me who's inspiring right now, it's like Tom Carroll. I'm lucky enough to call him a good mate of mine. We live in the same community. He's lived through amazing highs. He's lived through incredible adversity. And he's never too busy to say g'day to a crossing friend but actually ask them how they are. He's never too busy to talk to a lady who's just gotten into surfing—and I've witnessed all of these things—who's just gotten into surfing and is just starstruck by him. And he's like... he's a brother that like, when I did my knees, I had so many injuries, like he called me and we just had a chat and I was just friggin had a big old cry to him. I was just like, "Dude, like, you know, look, I got to work and I can't surf and I can't even use my body to provide for my family," and he just like is such a sensitive soul that he was just so there for me. He doesn't owe me anything. There's nothing to gain from me. He's like such a champion, not only in his surfing, but in his... like, I love the way that he embodies life. And he just... he froths that hard, dude. I know you've met him as well, but he froths harder than most. And he's like—I think he might be 60—but he's getting towards that age. He surfs so much and foils surfing stuff like crazy. Training hard, like... and he's just got such a big open heart, you know, and that actually supersedes everything else—like all of everything else. You know, he's got such a big open heart. And such a froth for life. And so, yeah, he really inspires me. And I didn't even think of that before you asked me, but as soon as you asked me, he's the first face that popped into my mind, yeah. He's a legend.

Michael Frampton
That's awesome. I mean, I look up to Tom a lot as well, and he's—Tom's amazing. It's so important in life to have these people who we look up to. Whether it's an elder who you consider a friend or a specific mentor or...

Nic Laidlaw
Whatever. It's so important, isn't it? We shouldn't do it alone either.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, we can't do it alone. And...

Nic Laidlaw
I think I've been fortunate that I've always seeked out elder males, you know. I've got a really good dad—like a great dad—and he's never been too big to point me in the right direction or even just to accept all these characters that I fall into flow with in my life. You know, because Dad had a... Dad, Mum and Dad grew up out west, away from the ocean, in a very different upbringing than me. And they've given this privilege to us to live like on, you know, like, you know, a stone's throw away from the ocean. And we all fell in love with the ocean together. And there's all these eccentric characters that come with the surf culture. And Mum and Dad are just like, yeah, right. Like, you know, they see people's good hearts and good intentions. They're like, cool. Like some of my mates, like—and over the years—and some people that I've brought home as a kid, and you know, like I've had like lots of mentors. Really lucky. From the surf community and from NASA, like our local boardriders. And some of these people that Mum and Dad have come across, they're just like really trusting and accepting. But I've had some really colorful, like... outside-the-box kind of thinkers from a really early age. So I'm so frothed on that. It's so lucky.

Michael Frampton
Man, you live in a special part of the world for...

Nic Laidlaw
Sure. Yeah, it really is, dude. Yeah, there's a lot of special people in a... it's wherever you seek it, I reckon. And there is that thing that brings you into flow with other people that are... and maybe if they're not even like-minded, they've got something to offer you.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, we don't have to name the place, but those who know how special the surf is there—but just the... just it's just such an idyllic place to live and it attracts—it is—so many special people.

Nic Laidlaw
No, yeah. I think like, yeah, I live on the Northern Beaches in Sydney, and it's just like, yeah, it's a beautiful place. And I've got, you know, I live at Avalon, and I'm super proud of like our community. And it's evolving like—and it's changing—like everywhere changes, you know, but that's just part of life. But yeah, at its core, it's still a very special place that breeds a lot of characters. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Nic Laidlaw
Man. You got to experience that.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I miss it like crazy, man. I've lived in Pointe du Malibu, I've lived in London, I've lived in New York. And if I had to... if I had to go back to any one of the spots I've lived around the world, it would be there.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, you reckon?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's cool. For sure. Without even second-guessing myself.

Nic Laidlaw
And are you back in NZ now?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, back in NZ, back in Hawke's Bay.

Nic Laidlaw
Nice. Cool.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, we've got family here and family and friends are here. So good place to raise the...

Nic Laidlaw
Sure, dude.

Michael Frampton
Kids. That's where you want to be for... there's no higher task.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, no, that's the most important thing is raising the boys.

Michael Frampton
There's no greater honor, really.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah. For sure. You've got mentors above you and then mentees below us.

Michael Frampton
Totally. That's just the purpose. I used to have different lofty goals of what I want to achieve and all that stuff. You become a parent. That's your living legacy. Nothing more important.

Nic Laidlaw
But you can't lose sight of your own... stuff either.

Michael Frampton
Fuck no. No, like I'm even more inspired to get barreled. I'm even more inspired to kick ass—like in relative terms to what it means for me—because it's like, I want to be their hero, you know? I think we've all seen it, you know, the parents that live through their kids, that sacrifice. And there's no doubt about this—certainly sacrifices being a parent. But like, that's what comes with the choice of doing it. Like, yeah, it's lit like a fire in my belly even more so, like to—just like—to be... I want to use like "authentically myself," but like it's that thing of just being your unbridled self. Because I would love them to feel comfortable in their skin, just to express themselves and be themselves, you know? And that's something I didn't grow up having—that innate confidence—but it's developed as I've gotten... as I've grown up. And I just think if I can do one thing—like you said, like we said at the very start—it's so important to live your dream because that's what they see. If they see someone that, you know, sees work as a slog and sees life as something to get through, then that's a pretty... that's a bit of a bummer of a picture for your parents to—for your kids to see, you know? If they see you coming home from work, you know, maybe tired some days, but overall, if they see you frothing more than not, like, I think that's good, you know. And how do we get those happy chemicals in our body? By doing the things we love. And for me, it's like moving my body, being in nature, and surfing my butt off, you know? And, you know, having like really good relationships in my life as well, like from everything.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it comes back to how we started, which is lead by example.

Nic Laidlaw
Do. Don't talk about doing. Just do it. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Exactly.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, 100%.

Michael Frampton
And it spreads out. Not just your kids—obviously, they live with you, they see more of you than anyone else—but obviously, it spreads out. Everywhere. Your community, obviously.

Nic Laidlaw
100%. And like I said, having that opportunity where there was just always... I've just been lucky where I've always come across really great mentors. That's something I don't take lightly in my role in the community as well. I really love—and it just so happens—I've got, you know, so many ladies and young ladies that come, and every age of females and males that come through the studio. But like, young men seem to really be drawn to the studio. And that's something that I love. You know, I love like, you know, getting the groms in here. You know, give them a lot of love and a lot of confidence, but give them the boundaries that they need because they're cheeky little bastards. And, you know, just working, just watching them become young men and staying... if you can just, again, by living it, impart solid values for them. Because I think the world needs... and I can only speak from a man, but the world needs good people in general. But like, you know, our masculinity is in crisis in a lot of ways in the world. And I think there's one thing, you know, that I could offer—I feel like I'm a fairly well-balanced male. So yeah, you know, I love having young fellas come in here and, you know, just sharing with them what I can. It's important.

Michael Frampton
It's super important. I'm glad you mentioned it because there is a crisis of masculinity, for want of a better word. I mean, have you come across Richard Reeves’ work, for example, maybe?

Nic Laidlaw
Okay, no, I...

Michael Frampton
Haven’t. I forget what his book's called now, but I’ll share it with you. It's really interesting work. People mislabel the term masculinity.

Nic Laidlaw
Yes, so it has a negative connotation, when really...

Michael Frampton
Really, it’s not. Yeah.

Nic Laidlaw
Being proud of one's masculinity and sitting strong in one's masculinity is so important for the balance of culture and society, just like I think women need to be so much more celebrated for their power—not their yang strength, strapping a pair of balls on—but like, women have strength, like, and power that is so innately theirs that it’s like, men shouldn’t even try to emulate that. And it's such a powerful force. Just like, on the other hand, man, we have like an innate strength and power that is really good for our society and really good for our young men to be able to grow from. And I think it's to celebrate, you know, the inner warrior, to celebrate our strength. And by physically challenging ourself—whether that's going surfing big waves, and I know that was my initiation into manhood; it’s one of them anyway, you know—having kids, another one. But you know, going and testing your limits. And that's all part of being a young man. And everyone's welcome. It's not exclusive. But I think there is a level of like—I feel like there's so many guys that are turning into, like, by the age of a man, that haven't really been taught how to like, strap a pair on, and taught how to lead, or to hold it down for their family, or to fucking just show up and be a man of your word. Like, I don't think that's as valued in our society as it could be. And I think it's quite confusing for young men.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it sure is. How was big wave surfing an initiation?

Nic Laidlaw
I don't subscribe to any religion or ideology personally. But I think nature is one of those things that's pretty god-like, in a way that, like, the relationship that I formed with the ocean—it’s never failed to make me feel comfortable. So small in the scheme of things that it feels like it really puts you in your place. So that's like, I'll speak of that with my relationship to the ocean and to nature in general. It's like, it's so powerful that it's hard to actually measure how powerful it is. But you don't know until you're in an ocean that's big enough to squish you if it wanted to. And so I think from a pretty early age—I think I was like 13, 14, maybe just starting high school—where I started kind of getting that... when the waves are big in relative terms—and I'll only speak in relative terms—but when the waves are big and you have to kind of like really muster up some courage to get out there, or you have to really think about how you're going to get out there... like there's so much problem solving involved to remain fairly unscathed. Like whether it's a rock off, or whether it's a strategic paddle out, whether you go around the next headland and paddle out that way. And then there's the action of like—so that's the first thing—is like getting off the beach with a lot of uncertainty in your heart. And it's pretty awesome. It's equally awesome doing it with a couple of buddies, because like, yes, we're in this together—or even doing it by yourself, it's even like another lesson, embodied lesson there as well. But, you know, taking a few drops, getting some floggings, and then being out so far that you're looking at the horizon, looking at the shore—which is quite a way away—and then you come back to sand and come back to land and you're just like, "My God, I'm so grateful to be alive and to be in good health." I still feel like that when I have a big surf out at the Bombie or whatever. It's just like, you touch the sand and you're like, "Thanks, God." You know, like, that is just amazing. So how is that initiation? I think for anything to be an initiation, you need to like stretch yourself beyond what you think you're capable of, right? You need to go and step into the unknown. There's the idea of having like a dark—the dark night of the soul—which is like, unknown, terrified. You have opportunity for all of the negative self-talk to come in. Ideally, you prove to yourself that you're able and that you're capable to slip in—not to overcome a fear or not to beat fear or conquer anything—but actually to work with an energy that's much bigger than yourself, I think teaches you a lot. That's taught me a lot anyway. And then to return to land—whether it's you got a few scratches and bruises, you got a snapped board, you've had to do a huge swim across through a rip—or you come in one piece. And I think that's like such a... it's like a... yeah, it's the tale of like the hero’s journey encapsulated in a couple of hours perhaps. So I think there's a lot to be said about it. And we don't have—it’s coming back more and more with formalized, you know, men's work that people are doing out there, which I love—but when you're doing it with nature, it's such a great thing. And I think that's very much... you can feel. My biggest one was going to Hawaii when I was 17. I felt like I just came back a different person. Because it was in that six weeks, there were just so many times where I pushed myself beyond where I thought I'd go. I accepted help from these amazing people that were in my corner. I had to figure shit out by myself a lot, whether it's, you know, in so many different ways. So, yeah, I do think it’s like, that does offer a really good, solid, honest initiation for a young person.

Michael Frampton
100% agree. I love that. You nailed it.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, you go through it enough times and you can start to put some words to the experience.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, a big wave surf is almost—it’s a good metaphor for any challenge that you face in life.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah. Beyond surfing for sure.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And for surfers, it's... you know, big wave surfing might be the thing. You have this desire, right? It all starts with that. And then you self, "Man, am I ready? It's triple overhead. Am I ready for this?" And if you've done your training and you've got the right board, it's not going to get rid of self-doubt. But it's going to give you a reason and some evidence to be confident. And then you can go out and test your training and your... and all those other hours.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah. And you have to face all of that self-doubt. Because I think all the fear comes from like a seed that's within ourself, you know. A fear of—we see a huge wave and that reflects—that's fucking scary—but that reflects something in us back to us, that gives you the mirror of like, can I? Should I? You know? And you have to go through so many mental challenges, work with so many mental obstacles, challenges to even get yourself in the arena. It's a very rich experience.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's the same as signing a lease to a building to run a business from.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, totally. I did that when I was 21. That was pretty scary.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, but would you have done that if you hadn't been to Hawaii?

Nic Laidlaw
I wonder, bro. I wonder. I think that was a big game changer—going to Hawaii—because I kind of came back to school knowing something that a lot of people didn’t know. Like knowing something about myself that very few people knew about me. And it kind of didn’t matter. I didn’t really—it wasn’t one of those days where social media—like you need to get shots to prove what you’ve just done. It’s like I came back with this idea, confidence of being like, I’ve seen some shit over the last, you know, over the last while. And it actually gave me a lot more—you know, how I was speaking about how I wasn’t really born or I didn’t really grow up with this innate confidence just to be myself—like I’ve never felt so, you know, so free. Adulthood is so much easier than adolescence for me. Like, because I just give myself permission just to be me. And I just—you know, it’s not that I don’t care—but like in the sense of, it’s not really any of my business what other people think of me. Like, so I’m good, you know. And that was the beginning of it—coming back from Hawaii and being like, cool. I know that I feel really—like there was a confidence in me. And that just helped me pursue—like that nailed one thing. I was still doing the Pro Juniors as a competitive surfer then, but I was 17 at that age where it’s like, I don’t know if I’m that—if I’m good enough to be like on tour. And that was like an honest reflection, you know. That wasn’t—it wasn’t any hard luck story with me. It was just that thing of like I’ve competed for a long time and I don’t know if I’m going to crack it, you know. But what I did know for sure is that I wanted to surf every day. And my parents have both run their own business together—they’re hairdressers—and they’ve had a salon for 30-odd years, even maybe longer than 30 years. They’re doing just such a humble, great business and service to the community, but they’ve always done it themselves and they haven’t worked for anyone. And so I think when I was like, I still—I need to be able to surf every day. Like, that’s non-negotiable. And I was like, I like working with people, and I’m really into my health and yoga and stuff. So yeah. So then I decided to do the yoga and personal training. And then straight away it’s like, what are you going to do? You’re going to work at like Fitness First, or are you going to train people in a park? And I was just like—both of those are fine. But for me, I was like, nah, I want to have my own. I don’t like any gym. I’d never even been to a gym until I was a personal trainer. Because I just didn’t—I was a skinny kid—I wasn’t interested. I wasn’t interested in it unless it was going to help me surf better. I wasn’t interested. And then found all the Cech philosophy, and I’m like, this could help me surf better. And it could help a lot of other people surf better too. But yeah, I got a little studio and I didn’t think twice about it. Anything that I got with payment—any cash that I got that was a $20 note or above—I banked it. I took out a $40,000 loan, got a car, got a studio space and did it up, decked it out. And then I just paid—worked my absolute ass off to pay that loan back within the five years, which was the agreement. And I did. And I didn’t think much about it. Like, I was just like, it has to work, you know? I was 21 when I did it. So you don’t have that much responsibility at 21, you know. But I didn’t really think—I was just like, let’s just do it.

Michael Frampton
I love that. And the non-negotiable—that’s such a good term.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah. You gotta surf every day. Fuck. What else are we—like, we’ve got to be able to surf every day, you know. If that’s what you want. You should be—we should be able to do—and you live, I’ve noticed from day one I met you when you were in Avalon—I got, that’s just like, yeah, of course. Of course, that’s what you should be able to do every day. There’s no "I have to." Speaking of being a man, there’s no "I have to." You do everything. You find that—you let’s find that. And it might sound rich coming from me, but it’s like, I’m not materially super wealthy or anything. I just like, carved out a good lifestyle so I can do what we want and our family can eat good food.

Michael Frampton
Well, that’s the true meaning of wealth, isn’t it?

Nic Laidlaw
Like that’s what I mean, you know. Yeah, 100%. It’s like, yeah, that’s our private health care—you know, exercise and organic food.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Beautiful. I love that. That’s very educational and inspirational. Dude, thank you so much. We have to get you back on another time, but thanks for your time today. It’s awesome.

Nic Laidlaw
Absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me on, bro. Love your work, man. So yeah, really appreciate it.

Michael Frampton
Sweet. And where can people find you online?

Nic Laidlaw
Instagram is just Balanced Studio. So B-A-L-A-N-C-E-D-S-T-U-D-I-O, one word. Yeah. I put up stuff semi-regularly there. Or just like, yeah, I’ve got a YouTube channel, Nic Laidlaw. So N-I-C Laidlaw. And putting—I’ve actually just re-launched, like, kind of reignited it to get more online, you know. So I’ve just been chipping away at that more recently. So I’ve got some new content coming out there and some surf-specific stuff as well, you know—good movement, mobility, strength for surfing and all those kind of things. So yeah, that’d be a good start—YouTube or Insta. And that leads to the website, my services and all that kind of stuff.

Michael Frampton
Perfect. I’ll have links to all that stuff in the show notes. And until next time, thanks. Thank you so much for tuning in.

Nic Laidlaw
Yeah, 100%. Thanks, Mike.

Michael Frampton
I noticed that most people that listen to this podcast haven’t yet subscribed, so if you could do that, it would be a huge help—it’ll help grow the show. And a review and a rating is a massive help to help the show along. And of course, if you enjoyed this episode or any other episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, share it with a friend. You can follow Nic at Balanced Studio on Instagram, and of course, links to everything Nic in the show notes. My six-week coaching program starts next week. More information atsurfmastery.com. Upcoming episodes include... Guy Kawasaki, Matt Parker. And until next time, get out there and go surfing.

96 How Surfing Connects Us To Our True Selves - With Nic Laidlaw

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

Think great surf photos are just about timing the barrel? Think again—what if the real magic happens before the wave even breaks?

Oscar Hetherington shares how photography sharpened his wave reading, elevated his surfing, and deepened his obsession with adventure. From the snowy points of the South Island to international recognition with the Follow the Light award, Oscar explains how slowing down, observing the ocean, and embracing the full surf journey—not just the ride—can transform your surf experience.

• Learn why most surfers blow good sessions before they even paddle out—and how to fix it

• Discover how photography can teach you better wave selection, rhythm, and positioning

• Hear the behind-the-scenes of cold water shoots, hypothermia, and winning global surf awards

Hit play now to see surfing through a fresh lens and uncover the mindset shift that could elevate every session you paddle into.

Website: https://www.oscarhetheringtonvisuals.com

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/oscar.hetherington/?hl=en

Music: Original by Joe Cole. Check out Joe: https://www.instagram.com/joecolemusic/, https://open.spotify.com/artist/5TjI5d408YMuLi17W0OP9B

Key Points

• Oscar Hetherington began surfing at the age of seven or eight in Queensland, Australia, and continued the sport despite moving to Wanaka, far from the coast.

• Oscar Hetherington has been passionate about photography since he was young, starting with a GoPro and later moving to Sony equipment, influenced by his love for adventure and sports.

• Oscar Hetherington's photography gained recognition through his work shooting mountain bike events, leading to his entry into surf photography and eventually winning the Follow the Light Surf Photography Awards.

• Winning the Follow the Light Surf Photography Awards has opened up opportunities for Oscar Hetherington, including a planned trip with Billabong.

• Oscar Hetherington emphasizes the adventure aspect of surfing in his photography, seeking out undiscovered spots and focusing on the journey rather than just the waves.

• Oscar Hetherington finds that shooting surf photography enhances his surfing skills by improving his wave reading and selection, contributing to a more comprehensive understanding of the sport.

• Oscar Hetherington identifies rushing and poor wave selection as common mistakes among beginner and intermediate surfers, advocating for a more deliberate and observational approach to surfing.

• Oscar Hetherington recounts a challenging experience of mild hypothermia while shooting surf photography in cold conditions, emphasizing the importance of proper equipment and preparation.

• Oscar Hetherington expresses a strong interest in exploration and adventure, both in his photography and surfing, aiming to visit and document lesser-known surf spots around the world.

• Oscar Hetherington aspires to work with National Geographic and create a photo book documenting his adventures and surf experiences in unique, less-visited locations. 

Outline

Oscar Hetherington's Background

• Oscar Hetherington is a surfer and photographer from New Zealand.

• Oscar started surfing at the age of seven or eight in Queensland, Australia, near Noosa.

• Oscar's family, including their father and brother, also engaged in outdoor activities like kite surfing and rugby.

• Oscar has always been creative, with interests in drawing, painting, and photography from a young age.

• Oscar's first camera was a GoPro, followed by a Nikon D3000, and currently uses Sony a7R III and a7R IV cameras.

Oscar's Photography Career

• Oscar began gaining recognition for their photography skills by shooting videos of mountain biking events.

• Oscar entered the Follow the Light Surf Photography Awards and won the grand prize in 2023.

• Oscar's photography portfolio includes surf action, lifestyle, portrait, and seascape images.

• Oscar is set to embark on a trip with Billabong, a leading surf brand, to create content and collaborate with their athletes and creatives.

Surfing and Photography

• Oscar enjoys capturing the adventure and culture of surfing, not just the action shots.

• Oscar spends time researching and planning surf trips using tools like Google Meet to find new waves and swell patterns.

• Oscar often shoots when the surf conditions are great, reserving surfing for when the conditions are merely good.

• Oscar believes that shooting surfing has improved their own surfing skills by enhancing their wave reading and timing.

• Oscar emphasizes the importance of slowing down and being selective with wave choices in both surfing and photography.

Learning and Improvement in Surfing

• Oscar highlights the value of watching the ocean and other surfers to learn and improve surfing skills.

• Oscar suggests that beginners and intermediate surfers often rush and make poor wave selections.

• Oscar practices self-reflection after each wave to identify areas for improvement in their surfing.

• Oscar varies their surfing equipment, such as trying different boards, to keep the activity interesting and improve their skills.

• Oscar emphasizes the importance of choosing the right surfboard for the conditions to enhance performance and enjoyment.

Adventure and Exploration

• Oscar values the adventure and exploration aspect of surfing, seeking out new and undiscovered waves.

• Oscar has had experiences of finding perfect waves by driving to less crowded spots and using tools like Google Meet to plan trips.

• Oscar is inspired by the idea of traveling to remote and unique locations for surfing and photography adventures.

• Oscar mentions the influence of photographers like Nick Green, who capture waves in uncharted territories.

• Oscar expresses interest in creating a book or project documenting an adventurous surf trip to a unique destination.

Future Goals

• Oscar feels a sense of increased pressure to continue producing amazing imagery after winning the Follow the Light award.

• Oscar aspires to be recognized or collaborate with National Geographic, aiming to capture timeless and iconic images.

• Oscar's main focus in photography is on surfing and seascapes, but they are open to shooting anything that inspires them.

• Oscar has a goal of creating a significant adventure project, potentially a book, documenting a unique surf trip to a remote location.

Transcription

Michael Frampton
Back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Today's guest is Oscar Hetherington. Oscar is a surfer and photographer from here in New Zealand, and Oscar came into my awareness last year when I saw his amazing images after he won the grand prize at the 2023 Follow the Light Surf Photography Awards, and it turns out he lives just around the corner, so we got to do this one in person. The intro and outro music was written by Joe Cole, a New Zealand musician. I gave him an early listen to this episode, and he came up with this original piece, which I love. So big thanks to Joe for doing that. You can listen to his recorded originals online on Spotify: Joe Cole, J-O-E-C-O-L-E, and Joe Cole Music on Instagram. Today's guest, Oscar Hetherington, is at [email protected] on Instagram and oscarhetheringtonvisuals.com. Of course, all of that stuff is in the show notes and at surfmastery.com for the links. Bye now. Please enjoy my conversation with Oscar. When did you start surfing?

Oscar Hetherington
I started surfing probably I think I was seven or eight years old. Yeah, we lived in Australia for a couple of years, luckily enough. Up in Queensland near Noosa, so yeah, picked up a surfboard then. And then, yeah, 23 now and... I guess I grew up in Wanaka mainly, first of all, which is pretty far away from the coast, as you can imagine. Yeah, I guess that's when I was first introduced to surfing. But since then, every holiday we've been on, every time I've been to the beach, I've just wanted to keep surfing. No, shortboarding.

Michael Frampton
Basically. No, so was that longboarding?

Oscar Hetherington
Like I say, seven or eight years old, Dad was pushing me in on a little soft top kind of thing.

Michael Frampton
So Dad's a surfer?

Oscar Hetherington
Nah, Dad wasn't a surfer, but living in a place like Noosa, you know, he bought a board, just couldn't help himself. He started learning, I started learning, my little brother started learning. Yeah, we were all just out there as much as we could, and there's no excuse not to be in the... You know, they've got warm water and good waves to learn in over there. So that's where it all began for me, really.

Michael Frampton
Did it begin for your family as well from living in Noosa? Did your dad keep surfing? Did your brothers keep surfing?

Oscar Hetherington
My brother still surfs just for fun. Yeah, he's more focused on rugby and other things. Dad is quite into kite surfing. Yeah, he's always been keen on anything in the outdoors—skiing, sailing. Yeah, gave surfing a go, anything outdoors he loves. So yeah, he still kite surfs, but he doesn't surf anymore. So out of the family, it's mainly me, I guess, who's addicted to it. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And then what about art?

Oscar Hetherington
I've always been pretty creative, like from a young age, I don't know. Just curious and liked drawing, painting. I remember picking up a camera when I was probably 11 or 12 years old and just curious about how they made movies, how photos were taken, you know, all sorts of stuff like that. I probably didn't appreciate art when I was young, but I was just curious on like how it was made, how people made movies—from like the special effects to how they filmed the action stuff. Yeah. All of that.

Michael Frampton
Did you have a favourite director or a favourite movie or a favourite photographer, artist back then?

Oscar Hetherington
Not really, no. I think I was too young. Like I say, I was just curious on all of it and how it worked. Like, yeah, you'd watch a movie and there'd be some shots where I'd just think, like, how did they do that? Like, was it a drone or a helicopter or a gimbal or like, a lot of it was movie stuff. But yeah, I guess I was too young to kind of think too deeply into how. Well, to understand how it was actually done and have favorites and things. Yeah, I'd say that's probably the best way to put it.

Michael Frampton
That, yeah. So you were in awe of cinematography?

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah. And just like, yeah, watching any type of sport really—from rugby to surfing to diving—you know, all of that stuff, you'd watch it and just go far out, that looks amazing. Like, I want to go and do that activity first of all, but then how do you show other people kind of the things you get up to and the adventures and the stories behind the sport, I guess. Yeah. Initially, like, I started shooting... It was nothing to do with photography really. It was, like I say, in Wanaka once again, going on adventures, going skiing and fishing and mountain biking, all of that. It was going to amazing places, seeing amazing things, doing sports in the mountains and wanting to show friends at school, wanting to show Mum and Dad, hey, this is amazing snow we scored or check out this fish we caught or whatever. And then, yeah, taking photos kind of and videos of stuff like that. And then... Yeah, after a while it kind of... I don't know, everywhere I went, I was just carrying a camera going like, just looking at the world a bit differently, I guess, as well.

Michael Frampton
What was your first camera?

Oscar Hetherington
I had a GoPro to start with when I was 11 or 12 years old, and then I had a Nikon D3000, I think it was, from memory.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, just the entry-level SLR.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, nothing special. It was second-hand off Trade Me for my 14th or 15th birthday kind of thing. Yeah, and then, yeah, had that for a few years and then just sort of slowly upgraded to where I'm at now, yeah.

Michael Frampton
What are you using now?

Oscar Hetherington
Now I'm using all Sony. So I shoot with a Sony a7R III and a Sony a7R IV mainly. And yeah, just Sony lenses as well. And then in the water, I shoot with the Aquatech housing.

Michael Frampton
Nice. Yeah. When was your first recognition of that, how you were actually doing pretty well at photography or filming?

Oscar Hetherington
A few times we went away on fishing trips or mountain biking, like you'd go away for Easter weekend or whatever, and then I remember cutting up like a little, I don't know, two-minute mountain bike video, posting it on YouTube, and then you go to school next week and a few people are like, that was a crazy video, like, I saw what you got up to on the weekend. And then I guess that kind of gave me a little bit of confidence. I probably, yeah, made a few edits over a year or so. And then I actually contacted a family friend of ours who runs a mountain bike race and just said, hey, can I come and shoot this whole event for free, just to like see if I can, you know, shoot a day's worth of content and make like a recap video for the event? And that went well. I remember staying up till like two in the morning editing the day of the event, put it up online like nine o'clock the morning after. And everyone from the event was just waking up, checking Facebook and being like, my God, there's like a video out already. Like I just put my heart and soul into it. And then a lot of people just from that were like, this is like super cool. And I guess, yeah, no one had shot that event before. Yeah, I guess cameras weren't... That would have been, I think, 2015?

Michael Frampton
Like... What year was that?

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, so cameras were around for sure, but people had shot stills of that event, but they'd never shot a video of it. I think it was just something different and people were just stoked. And yeah, I had people from, friends from school, family, friends, all sorts of people. I think even one of the local newspapers rang me up and was like, hey, that was such a cool video, and they put it on their website or a few things like that. So that was, yeah, positive encouragement. And then from then on, I guess it slowly built. The next mountain bike race I was kind of like, hey, do you guys need someone to film a little video for you? I've done this one before. And then, yeah, it's just built from there, I guess. So that was for the Follow the Light.

Michael Frampton
Cool. Because, I mean, this year you got recognized in the surf world for your work. So what did that feel like?

Oscar Hetherington
Foundation Awards. That was crazy. That was... yeah, it was a strange thing, I guess. Growing up in Wanaka, I was never that close to the ocean, so I could never shoot surfing that often. When I went to university, I decided, right, I'm going to go to Dunedin. There are good waves down there, I can study and just shoot as much as I can. So I went down there, and I think my first year down there I got a few cool shots, whatever, found out those Follow the Light Foundation Awards were on, entered a few and got a bit of feedback. Most of it was positive. And I kind of thought, like, this is quite cool. And, like, the list of the people that had won that award in the past, like Nick Green, Ray Collins, Chris Burkard... there's just a never-ending list of people that have won it. So then I guess every year my kind of goal was to just take a few better photos solely for that portfolio. Yeah, so they always ask for 15 images, and I had 15 good ones four years ago. Then a year later when it was time to enter again, I'd go, right, which ones can I swap out? And for a couple of years there, I'd swap out most of them. Then two years ago, I made it into the top 10, and I thought, right, I'm doing something right, heading in the right direction here and whatnot. And then last year I made it into the top 5, and I was like, right, I'm doing everything right. Just made a few tweaks and kind of really broke down the images that I was entering. Yeah, so broke it down to some surf action stuff, some lifestyle and portrait stuff—like behind the scenes of surfing, really—and then just some seascapes. So just really broke it down to those three areas, picked my five favorite photos, and then, yeah, ended up winning it somehow. Headed over to America, and yeah, it was a crazy trip to go over there and just be recognized for like... yeah, I don't know. It had been, like I say, a goal of mine for so long. Yeah, there's been quite a few.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, that's awesome. Has anything, any opportunities stemmed out of that?

Oscar Hetherington
Honestly, like... over there on the award night, for example, like I'd never seen that many surfers in one place before. Like, in New Zealand, it's... I don't know, a busy day at the beach here, there's 20 people in the water, 30 people in the water. At that night, there were one or two thousand people and everyone surfed, everyone was there for the same reason. So like, just... yeah, the scale over there was awesome. So from that, I'm heading away to do a trip with Billabong this year, which will be pretty cool. I don't know exactly where or when I'm headed with them, but I'm looking forward to that—doing some work with them. They obviously have been one of the leading surf brands for as long as anyone can remember. So that'll be awesome to get a foot in the door with them, meet some of their athletes and their creatives. And yeah, I'm really excited to see what we can come up with.

Michael Frampton
Cool. Will you be the only photographer on that trip?

Oscar Hetherington
I'm not sure.

Michael Frampton
They haven't told you yet?

Oscar Hetherington
No, they haven't told me. I've been in talks with them. They're just planning out a few trips at the moment and then waiting for them to get back to me and figure out where we're off to.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that'll be exciting.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. And I think the one thing within surf photography or in surfing as a whole that I like to show when I shoot is like the whole adventure of surfing. It's not just someone standing up on a wave doing a cool turn or anything. There's so much more to it—that whole kind of adventure thing, searching for waves, reading maps, weather patterns, all of that. That's what I love about it too. Like I say, there's so much more to surfing than getting a good wave because there's so much before that can happen that has to line up.

Michael Frampton
All of those zoomed-in shots of the perfect turn—that's been done. I mean, no one knows who took that photo. But you see a shot that Chris Burkard has done, you feel the adventure of surfing. Or Rambo's, like all those adventure surfing shots. And then you probably listened to the episode I did with Rambo. There's a lot that goes...

Oscar Hetherington
A lot that goes on behind the scenes. Like I've spent hours on Google Meet. That's, yeah, something that my mates give me a bit of shit for because, I don't know, it's like a weird... a strange obsession. But it's like, just always looking for, right, what's out there? Finding new waves, looking at where storms are hitting. There's... people have been to a lot of these breaks before and stuff, but I haven't, so it's... yeah, that's really interesting. Trying to line everything up and then going to shoot that as well.

Michael Frampton
So you're actively seeking... indie... spots that no one goes to, essentially. Google Meet. Yeah, I mean, the New Zealand coastline's perfect for...

Oscar Hetherington
That. Yeah, the New Zealand coastline's perfect for that. And I think Rambo in particular has probably influenced that a lot. Like just some of his empty lineup shots, you know, they're just amazing. Everyone who surfs in New Zealand and around the world knows him and his stuff. So yeah, he's been probably one of my biggest influences over the years. Yeah, like you say, just checking out the coastline on Google Meet and then figuring out what swells are going to work for that spot. You don't get it right first go. Like, you might have to go back to the same spot four or five times until you get it on a good day. Or you might go back... or you might, yeah, you could get it really good the first time and then go back and it's just... yeah, sometimes those spots are like kind of one-hit wonders in a way.

Michael Frampton
If you pull up to a spot and the waves are pumping... what's the feeling of like, do I shoot or do I surf? Or do you purposely not take a surfboard?

Oscar Hetherington
That's an interesting one. I'd like to say I surf when it's good, but I shoot when it's great. So there's kind of a difference for me. Like if it's... yeah, if it's anywhere... yeah, efforts out of 10, if it's like a 9 or 10 out of 10, then I'll shoot. Because there's only a handful of days a year where the surf is double overhead offshore and there's one or two talented guys out, or no one out, or a few mates out, or whatever it may be. But there's a lot of days when it's good, when it's not, you know, head-high, the wind's a little bit funny or whatever. But I find I can go and have a lot of fun and good vibes, but it's hard to get amazing photos when the waves are just good. Like you kind of need right waves, like I say, because I've spent hours sitting on the beach shooting mates who are really talented surfers and yeah, sat there for hours shooting, and it's like, it's all right, but it's not really doing its thing. And then you go home and you've got a thousand photos to go through. You've been sitting in the cold on the beach alone for four hours and you get nothing and you're like, damn, maybe I should have just gone and surfed because you would have had a whole lot more fun. And shooting, I guess, like it's experience. You're watching the ocean, it's all of that. You're playing around with your camera, trying different things to make moments look amazing in those average conditions, but it's still quite hard.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah.

Oscar Hetherington
To nail a shot on an average day.

Michael Frampton
It's probably easier, like, if you're sitting there and it's 9 to 10 out of 10, the swell is peaking, and you're waiting for that one set to come through, and you get the beautiful shot. There's probably no one on that set anyway because they're out of position, or that's the set that you can capture from the beach. But man, you've got to know the spot inside and out to actually catch one of those...

Oscar Hetherington
Waves. Yeah, 100%. And I think, like, on that note, a few times I've been lucky enough where you pull up, shoot a spot per se for an hour or two, and it's like great waves. Like I say, it's just perfect, picture-perfect. And I'll shoot it, and I'll go, right, I've got some good shots in there, like quickly look through my camera and go, yeah, right. I know there's some money shots in there. I'm going to go and surf because I feel like I've captured enough to kind of satisfy the photography side of it. And then going out and catching a few waves after that, that's like kind of the best of both...

Michael Frampton
Worlds. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. There's a period—I did my, when I was probably 22, I did my ACL. So I was out surfing for a good, back then it was 12 months rehab, and I just kept going to the beach and kept taking photos and watching surfing and watching waves. And then when I got back into surfing, I was better. Yeah. And I think it was just because surfing is so much about just getting to know the ocean and the rhythms and watching waves and reading waves that I think you get to do that in quite an intimate way with the camera. For sure. Because you're watching from pulled back, and then you can zoom in on your lens. Yeah. And you watch, you know, that surfer should have been here. Yeah. Did you not see that set where I saw it coming? I was ready with the camera. He wasn't ready with his paddling or... yeah. So there's a lot of...

Oscar Hetherington
That. Yeah, I completely understand. Like, I've spent hours and hours looking at the ocean through a lens. And I think that's, yeah, overall it's definitely improved my surfing. And I know other photographers and filmers are the exact same. Like you say, it begins to become kind of like second nature to you. You can pull up to the beach and you know where the rips are and all of that because you've seen it hundreds of times before. Or you'll see someone and you, without even lifting a camera, you can see, nah, that person's too deep, they're not going to make that wave. Or nah, they did a turn in the wrong spot or whatever. So yeah, it kind of goes hand in hand—surfing and photography—because then you can go out and be like, right, you know what waves are going to be the good ones, whether it's the slightly smaller ones in the sets or the last one of the set, first wave of the set. Like, yeah, I definitely think shooting the sport that I partake in has, you know, for me as a surfer. But I think it's benefited me as a photographer because I know the moments that surfers look for. And I'd like to think that I know how to shoot the sport because I do it, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, especially shots in the water and stuff—that's angles that only surfers normally get to see. If you're paddling out into the lineup and someone gets barrelled right in front of you, that's... not many people get to see that angle. But as a surfer, we all have seen that before and you go, that's like the best moment. So when you're shooting, I'm like, right, I know this is where I need to be. And if someone can surf that wave in that way and I'm in the right spot, then that might all line up. Or if it's an empty wave, that makes me just as happy because it takes one less variable out of the equation.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. How often is it a case when, as you're pulling up and parking your car, that's the best set?

Oscar Hetherington
Always. Yeah, every time? Yeah. I think... I've definitely become better over the past year or two just slowing things down, whether I'm shooting or surfing. I know often, even with mates around here, I'll pull up to the beach and they'll chuck their suits on and just go jump straight in the water. I'll find myself 10 minutes behind them. And it doesn't bother me because I know... you just get a chance to feel a few sets come through, look up and down the beach at other banks and things like that, rather than—like you say—it's always the case. You pull up and you see the wave of the day come in and you're like, right, I'm going surfing there. And that might not actually be the best spot. That might just be the odd fluky one that comes through and is amazing. But down the beach a few hundred meters, it could be just really big time. I agree for sure. And I think that whole time thing is like slowing everything down.

Michael Frampton
Consistent. Yeah, no, I mean, I think a lot of surfers don't watch the waves enough. Yeah.

Oscar Hetherington
When you're surfing, it's super important, I reckon. Like, watching from shooting so much surfing, you'll often see people paddle into a wave and just rush a lot, you know. They'll jump straight to their feet in a split second, and then they might try to jam three or four turns into a wave, where often you watch good guys like pros and stuff—they'll stay down for a second longer, time their pop-up perfectly, and do like two amazing turns rather than three or four average turns, you know. I feel like just slowing things down is something I've had to learn because it's kind of like controlling that excitement and like, I need to do this, or should I go on this one, or whatever. But just, yeah, and being selective on waves as well. That's a huge thing that a lot of people think—if they get the most waves, they're having the best session. But it's kind of like a quality vs. quantity thing.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's certainly a detail you have to... well, you can really focus on that with your photography because you get to go back and look at all the photos you took and kind of compare—why did I push the shutter then? It was a waste of... because it's not film, you don't waste any money, but you waste time going through and looking and editing. And so you kind of narrow down your wave selection in that way, I guess. And of course, that translates to your surfing.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, for sure. And it's definitely just time watching the ocean. I was out shooting this morning, and there were some big sets coming in, and I wasn't even lifting my camera to shoot them because I sat there for half an hour and watched a few big sets come in, and they just weren't hitting the bank properly or they were closing down, closing out. But then watching, and some of those mid-sized ones that were coming through actually shaped up a whole lot better, held positions right from out the back the whole way through to the inside, and were makeable. And then a few surfers came in and were like, "It's pretty average out there, didn't get any good waves," and I was like, a lot of the time they're probably looking for the biggest wave of the day or taking those set waves, where it's like, if they'd stood on the beach for 15 minutes before they'd gone out, it's kind of like maybe some of those mid-sized ones would have been a lot more enjoyable to surf.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Once everyone's finished surfing, they want to go somewhere else. When I was sort of your age and growing up, we just hung out at the beach. And if we weren't surfing, we usually didn't get out quick. We wouldn't sit in and watch, but we'd come in and have fun to eat and watch the surf and go back out again and just hang out at the beach. There was nothing else to do. There were no smartphones. There was just watch the beach. And I think you learn a lot from that—just watching.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, for sure. And it's watching the ocean in that sense, but it's then watching edits and videos of pros doing their thing, watching the comp surfers. Like, yeah, all of that stuff. It's all learning—whether you're breaking it down like I am with a camera, like frame by frame: right, what should this person have done here, or what would I have done there, or whatever. Whatever you're doing, I think as long as you're learning as a surfer—no matter what you're learning—as long as you're learning something to do with surfing, then you're going to be heading in the right direction. I think it's the moment that you stop learning that's probably when surfing, I don't know, may become boring or you're just not as interested in it anymore. Yeah, but I always... yeah. Everything from conditions to equipment to different surf spots, swell patterns, all of that, yeah, learning's big, I reckon.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I'm wondering—I always ask this question for everyone—but you have a unique perspective on it because you watch surfing a lot, and probably a lot of average surfing. But what's the biggest mistake you think that beginners and intermediate surfers make?

Oscar Hetherington
I think... probably rushing again, like I say. I think a lot of people—yeah, a combination of wave selection and people just rushing. Especially in that kind of intermediate phase of just trying to go on any wave that comes to them. Yeah, where stopping and watching can just... yeah, I think it can improve your surfing a lot. Because it's one thing to be a good surfer, but to be able to read a wave and read the ocean and all of that, and to be able to perform at a wave that's ever-changing in front of you is—yeah, that's something quite different, I guess, to being able to do a crazy turn. I kind of dodged that question a bit.

Michael Frampton
No, I totally agree. Everyone's rushing. I find that in between waves... and not—like they check out.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah. There's one thing that I've personally done with my own surfing recently is, after every wave, when I'm paddling back out—just once I get back out the back—even if there's a set coming or whatever, just stopping and thinking, right, what did I do well on that wave? What could I have done differently? Should that bottom turn have been a little bit deeper? When I hit that end section, should I have hit it a little bit earlier? Was I a little bit late to it? Transferred your weight in different ways? Just thinking about those things rather than just going, well, that was a bad wave, and then paddling back out and hoping that the next one's better. It's like that kind of learning and want to improve.

Michael Frampton
Photographing or even in the water—as soon as you're like, "I'm just going to go to the car and grab a snack"—then the wave... that's when the wave comes. That's when that's that set that wasn't a big set, and it popped out of nowhere. And yeah, that one hit the reef just perfectly. And it's the same thing when you're sitting out the back and you think, I just caught a set, I'm going to paddle back out and I'm going to talk to my friend. Yeah, and then that's when the set pops out of nowhere. So I think a lot of surfers don't understand that surfing is... if you're surfing for an hour, you've got to be focused on the ocean for an hour. Not just—not for one minute every five minutes.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, for sure. And I think it's a funny one. I go out with some mates around here and a few of them are just... like surfing's their social life, you know? You've been working a week or whatever, and you go out on a Saturday morning for a wave, and they're just talking the whole time. And I feel bad, but sometimes I'm like, mid-conversation, I'm going on this wave. And they might not have seen it, or they're just out of position or whatever, but like, yeah, you've got to be focused on what's in front of you, otherwise you're going to miss the wave of the day. You're going to get caught inside by a big set. You know, you've got to be able to read what's happening in the ocean and react accordingly, essentially.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, sometimes you see a lot of good surfers have the ability to riff with you, but they might not look at you much. They're always just watching the horizon, and then halfway through a conversation, they just paddle away from you. And yeah, it kind of feels rude, but it's not really. They're there to surf. You might find, especially if you're new to surfing, you try and spark up a conversation and they won't even look at you.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, 100%. Some surfers...

Michael Frampton
They'll just blank you and maybe even paddle away from you. It's not because they're rude. In fact, if you went up to them when they're getting changed and asked to borrow some wax, they might be the nicest person you've ever met.

Oscar Hetherington
For sure, yeah.

Michael Frampton
But when they're surfing, it's like... don't. It's like that's their time to focus on the ocean.

Oscar Hetherington
Exactly. And it's a classic thing, but I always like to try and—if you're chasing waves with mates or whatever—it's like, you've got so much other time to catch up with people. You're going out with your friends and you've got to drive half an hour to the beach—do all the talking then when you're driving to the beach. That's when you're cracking jokes and having a laugh and having fun. Surfing, you can still do that for sure. But when it's good, like, you don't want to miss the wave of the day because you're turned around checking out your mate's new board or whatever it is. Check it out in the car park. Or, like, you know, just... yeah, you've definitely got to focus on it. And as a photographer, that's a huge thing too, for a few reasons. I think it's when you're shooting in the water, that is. I think it's... I don't know, I've found myself once or twice thinking, I just nailed that shot. Should I check it on the back of your camera? And then you check it, and then the crazy set comes in and you're out of position all of a sudden. Yeah, you've got to be super aware when you're shooting in the water. It's quite hard to move as fast as well because you're in the water—you're not on a surfboard as such. You've just got flippers on, so it's a little bit harder to get around out there. So yeah, and that's another reason why I pay so much attention to the ocean. If there's tons of sweep down a point, for example, or whatever, and you want to shoot in the water, you've got to know what's going on. Because at the end of the day, the ocean's in charge. You can jump out there and think you're lined up for the perfect shot, and then all of a sudden you get caught in a rip and you're dragged a few hundred metres down the beach. You've got to walk all the way back up, you've burnt all your energy, you've got no photos—none of that. And that's hard work. Like, I've learnt myself the hard way many times. But...

Michael Frampton
What's your worst experience?

Oscar Hetherington
Like I say, that's happened to me once or twice—probably a few years ago when I was younger and you'd just pull up to the car park and go, "Holy moly, the surf's incredible." All your mates are there, or a bunch of really good locals are out there, and you just jump in and don't take the time to look. Yeah, I've had one or two times down south, jumping in, just not reading the rips or the sweep or whatever it is, and then all of a sudden you're, yeah, a kilometre down the beach going, "Far out, where are my mates? Where are we parked?" And at the end of the day, you just end up out of energy with nothing to show for it, and you could have avoided that situation completely if you'd stopped for five minutes and looked and figured things out a little bit. One memory that springs to mind was just after one of the COVID lockdowns. A few of my mates were all down in Dunedin studying, and uni was online and all of that. And we went out every day for probably a month to this spot down there that had really good sand. We were normally only three or four people in the water. And I think it must have been my first or second year shooting surfing, because I only had a 3:2, and it was the middle of winter. I went down there—we were shooting in the water for three or four hours, and I was just really cold. Like, got to the point where I couldn't press the buttons on my camera, and my fingers just felt like rocks—just, yeah, there was no movement in them. My feet were the same, and it was probably about a half-hour walk back to the car up this quite big hill. And I thought, yeah, it's all good, walking back up the hill in my wetsuit and all that, I'll warm up, don't overthink it kind of thing. And then I remember walking back up the hill, and a few of my mates were talking to me, and I just remember... they, like, a couple of times were like, "You're all right, you're slurring your words a bit," and I was like, "No, I'm fine," whatever kind of thing. Then got to the car, and I couldn't do simple things like open the car door or find my car keys, and things like that. And I, yeah, would have had some mild form of hypothermia.

Michael Frampton
Sounds like it, yeah. For sure. Yeah.

Oscar Hetherington
But I kind of got to the point where I was like, no, just—the waves are firing, I'll just keep shooting. And then, yeah, I was young, had the wrong equipment for sure. So I went home that night and, yeah, bought a full-on winter wetsuit with a hood, some new booties, some gloves, all of that. Because yeah, I just got taught a lesson that day. Yeah, if anyone else has been in a similar experience, you'll know it takes like the rest of the day to warm up basically. You get home, have a hot shower, have hot food, you know, and you just can't feel much. Basically, you can't really think, you're kind of just lethargic and slow. Yeah, that was probably one of the scariest moments, for sure. And I think that was inexperience on my part. Maybe a bit of overconfidence being young, but yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. You're lucky. You've learnt the lesson there. Not the easy way, but not the hard way either.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, I think it was like on the fence that day.

Michael Frampton
What's the biggest waves you've been out in, either surfing or shooting?

Oscar Hetherington
I think I've definitely surfed a few days down south where it's been pretty solid. Double overhead on a few of the points down there where you don't get many people. That's definitely the fastest I've gone on a surfboard as well. There's a left down there that I love, but yeah, you've got to... I don't know. Yeah, it's a funny point break. I'm not going to name it or anything, but the wave breaks along the point, just like a lot of point breaks. There's no beach or anything that it goes into. It kind of just sweeps past the coast and then just goes back to nothing—like it's just open ocean. And you sit out there some days, and it's so scary because the water's dark and deep and murky. There's kelp around, there's big sea lions, and yeah, that's probably some of the biggest and spookiest at the same time conditions that I've surfed in. But yeah, you get to go pretty fast down some of those waves, ride a bigger board as well, which is super fun. And yeah, don't worry too much about getting barreled or doing the perfect turn or anything. You're just hanging on for dear life. And then shooting... I've shot probably some similar conditions, but you've got to pick and choose when you shoot in the water versus on land, I find. Because at a point like that, shooting in the water—it's an option, but when it's that big and there's that much water moving and things like that, and you don't have a board, it's pretty high risk. Yeah, and there's not... down south where we did a lot of missions to remote waves and things like that. It's kind of like if something goes wrong down there, we've got no cell phone coverage, we're a two-hour drive from hospital or whatever. So you kind of just think, right, I might go surf, because you've got a flotation device, your mates are around and stuff, but if you're shooting, you're often sitting on the inside, the boys are focusing on surfing, they might be a few hundred meters away from you, so you're kind of by yourself. There's some big rocks around and all of that, so that's when I might choose to surf or shoot from land rather than get in the water. Yeah, so it's just kind of safety. I would love to shoot some bigger waves, but it's just the time and the place, really. You know, somewhere where there's a lot of people around, warm water—like, you see so many shots of Pipe and a lot of places like that. It's like... I'd like to say that I'd back myself to swim out and shoot some of those spots. I haven't ever had the chance to, and I'd still go in with the mindset that you've got to learn this wave and spend a lot of time watching it and all of that. Yeah, I think... comfort-wise, I'm confident in myself that it's doable. Yeah, some warm water would be nice, yeah. And just...

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Much nicer. Yeah, I guess we don't really get huge—well, nothing compared to Hawaii—here in New Zealand.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah. Nah, not really swell-wise?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. No, not the 18, 20-second swells. They're pretty rare. Yeah. And the wind's all over it when we get them anyway.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. There's a funny story as well that springs to mind. I shot from land this day simply because it was huge and wild, but it was one of my favorite spots down at the bottom of the South Island. We drove in there—I think there were three mates and myself. We got the car stuck on the way in there, had to push it out of the ditch because there was a foot of snow on the ground, middle of winter. One of the guys forgot his booties, and he was like, "This is the best day ever." It was, yeah, double overhead barrels. Just crazy day. And the boys all went out, and within an hour one of them had come in with a snapped fin box and two others had snapped their boards. And we were just like, holy moly. It was just a massive storm—like four or five metre waves coming in, 40k an hour offshore, hail for half an hour, sun for half an hour, hail for half an hour. It was... yeah, that was a pretty full-on day. But it's, I don't know, one of those days that you'll remember for a while, because even though no one got the best wave of their life, I got a few photos but nothing crazy. But it was just, yeah, like, I don't know. We gave it a good go in the ocean and Mother Nature just showed us who's boss.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, those days—you got to keep going out though. You never know. The wind drops off for half an hour, and you get one of those waves. You can take a photo of one. Yeah. What about your own surfing? Like, how's that going? Do you film yourself to get better? In what ways are you progressing and learning?

Oscar Hetherington
I've never filmed myself, honestly. It's pretty rare. It's one of those funny things—like I'm always shooting and stuff like that, but if anyone wants to take any photos of me at any point, I'd love it, because it's pretty rare that anyone gets a photo or video of me doing something I love, which is surfing, really. But yeah, I'm definitely surfing a lot more now than I used to, because, like I say, I'm just shooting when it's really good. When it's like, yeah, one of the best days of the year kind of thing, that's when I'll shoot. And if it's not quite up to that standard, I'll go and surf. So I find that I'm surfing two or three times a week and shooting a couple times a month. Still, I like to keep my camera with me in case the conditions turn on even for half an hour or whatever. Doing some commercial shooting as well and shooting some fun lifestyle creative stuff, but definitely just focusing, yeah, on my own surfing. And more time in the water—it keeps you fit and healthy and all of that good stuff too.

Michael Frampton
You're not tempted to leave the camera on the dashboard, just on a tripod on the beach, film yourself?

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah. I don't know. I just need to become friends with a few photographers or pay someone to film me. But yeah. I'm not too worried about it. Like I say, it's always nice when someone does get a photo of you or a video or whatever, and then you can analyze it a little bit. But I think, yeah, like I mentioned earlier, when I surf nowadays, after most waves, I'll kind of break down what I think I could have done better or what I read wrong and things like that. So I think that's maybe one of the biggest ways that I'm kind of trying to improve my surfing—reflecting on it straight after it happens rather than getting back to the car and being like, "That was an alright surf," but not knowing why it was alright or why it could be better. It's kind of in the moment, reflecting on that.

Michael Frampton
Yep. No, self-reflection is one of the key things, and people are often scared to do it—they don't...

Oscar Hetherington
Want to. And it's definitely... there's always a fun side of surfing. Like, yeah, that's the main reason I surf is for fun obviously. But I do—like, you do want to get better, you know, as well. It's just a natural thing. Yeah, for sure. And I think too, like, I've tried to vary my surfing a little bit. I just used to only surf shortboards. I've got a log recently, which has just been super fun for when the conditions aren't perfect or when it's just waist-high, or like some of those smaller, more average days and stuff. Just finding different ways to enjoy surfing. And that's something that's kind of kept me hooked and kept me motivated. Even if you have a long flat spell for a month, you can still get out in the water and have some fun and try something different—new bits of equipment and stuff. But yeah, it keeps it interesting.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Switching up your equipment is huge for your surfing. Yeah. Having a quiver of boards for certain conditions, yes. Because then, when it is pumping and you jump back on your shortboard, you'd be surprised how much you've improved because you've been riding different boards and reading waves differently because of...

Oscar Hetherington
It. And I think as well, one area—I guess it's kind of improving my surfing—but it's just looking into equipment more and why certain boards or shapes or fin setups or whatever work better in certain conditions, and why things feel different under your feet as well. I think a lot of surfers, I don't know, they may go buy a new board and be like, "Right, it's got to be six foot and 34 litres," or whatever. That's all that matters. But it's like, no, there's a whole lot more to it. And maybe that comes from a photography point of view where there's a lot of technical aspects to it and stuff. Maybe that's what interests me about it. But the equipment side of surfing is something I'm—like, you can always learn more about surfboards and yeah, all...

Michael Frampton
Of that stuff. Sometimes you don't need a brand-new 1D, $15,000 camera. In every situation, sometimes a Polaroid actually might be more suitable for what you want. Or same with surfing.

Oscar Hetherington
Whatever. Yeah, 100%.

Michael Frampton
I see especially around here... sometimes I go to Te Awanga, and it's waist-high, and there's people out on these skinny shortboards that are meant for double overhead barrels. Yeah. And that... they're not catching waves. They're getting angry. I'm like, yeah. Like the amount of it—it's sort of like taking a Ferrari out where a Land Cruiser should be.

Oscar Hetherington
Exactly.

Michael Frampton
It makes no sense. So yeah, choosing the right board for the conditions and stepping away from that performance shortboard I think is... whereas overseas, especially in California, people are embracing the bigger, more alternative surfboards. I mean, look at some of the Album Surf... if you follow them at all. Yeah. Even when pros—when pros stop, when they're not competing—they're not on those boards either. They're on a fish or some weird shape or a longer board or whatever.

Oscar Hetherington
No, very rarely. Only the good days, yeah. And all of that—trying different equipment and surfing different spots—they go hand in hand. But it's that new experience or new feeling or experimenting and exploring—that's what keeps it interesting. You know what I mean? It's like you never quite know what you're going to get. But yeah, equipment—like, it's... yeah, surfboards. Super interesting. I think the rabbit hole with surfboards is a lot bigger than most surfers realize. Like you say, people will go out when it's waist-high, and they'll be on a shortboard that's super high performance, like 28 litres or whatever, and it's just like, maybe you should have brought a mid-length out, or a log, or just something different.

Michael Frampton
Yes. People think Stab in the Dark is enough variance in surfboards where they're refining...

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah. Millimetres.

Michael Frampton
It doesn't make any sense to me. I think big surfboards are underrated—hugely.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah. It's so much fun surfing on a longboard or a log, in my opinion. It's different as well—you have to read the wave differently, you have to react differently. Or, you react and the board doesn't. It takes a lot longer. But yeah, it all improves your surfing and keeps it fun and exciting. I think that's super important.

Michael Frampton
Too. You mentioned exploration and adventure a lot. How important is that to you?

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah. Reflecting back on it now, it's why I got into photography—why I picked up a camera—was because I loved going to new places with friends. And normally it was a sport or an activity or an adventure or whatever that would take us to those new spots. And I think, I don't know, the whole... I feel like there's just so much to see in the world and so much to do that it's like, why be content with surfing the same beach break week after week? You know what I mean? You can drive an hour from your hometown, and I bet there's a beach that you haven't been to.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And there's probably no one surfing it.

Oscar Hetherington
Know. Yeah. I've had some experiences recently when it's... yeah, we have looked at Google Earth and watched swell patterns and weather forecasts and things like that, and yeah, driven an hour from here and scored perfect waves with no one around. And I'm kind of like, wow. Like, why not? Like, what? You know what I mean? Like... if you're, yeah, I think if you're willing to go on an adventure and like, put yourself out there, give it a crack... you know, what's the worst that can happen? For sure.

Michael Frampton
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Yeah, that's what they say. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Especially with surfing.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah. And I think that there's so many... like, back to surfing being more than just standing up on a wave—the whole culture and lifestyle around it—the adventure side of it is, like, I love that just as much as I love surfing. Because you can read a swell for a couple of days, make a plan with your friends, go on a road trip, camp out for the weekend, and like, yeah, you might spend four or five hours surfing over that weekend, but you might spend four or five hours in a car, sitting around a campfire telling stories, cracking jokes, walking around the rock pools, going snorkeling, going fishing, whatever it may be. But those are all, like, side effects of going surfing essentially, but they're all so much fun. So it's like, why not go on an adventure, and surfing might be the excuse.

Michael Frampton
Often you don't—you get skunked, you don't get any waves. Yeah. But you don't regret.

Oscar Hetherington
Going. Exactly. Yeah. Some of, like, most of the best stories and the funniest memories and things like that are from surf trips that are... like, it's not when you're surfing the funny moments always happen, or the best times always are.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. So you mentioned the Follow the Light, right? And you said that was a goal of yours. Yeah. And you achieved that. What's next?

Oscar Hetherington
It's a good question. I think... it's a funny one. Winning the Follow the Light last year, that's... I don't know. I feel like there's almost more pressure now than before. Because looking at my name on that list of other people that have won it in the past and seeing their work from when they've won it, they've somehow managed to keep making amazing imagery or new imagery or finding new angles, all sorts of stuff like that. So I feel like now it's kind of like... I know there's, yeah, there's a lot that I want to shoot all around the world, and there's lots of different ways to shoot spots that have been shot hundreds of times before too. Goal-wise, I guess, in competitions with photography and things like that, I'd love to be recognized or do something with National Geographic at some point. It's not super related to surfing as such, but it's more just... like, some of their photographers and stuff over the years have been the best in the world—captured the most amazing images that people will talk about for years and years to come. You know what I mean? You could pick up one of their magazines from 20 years ago and a lot of people will recognize that photo. So yeah, I'd love to do something either with them or win one of their awards. I think that would be... yeah, I do.

Michael Frampton
Do you do more photography outside of surfing or...?

Oscar Hetherington
I guess my main focus is surfing and seascapes and things like that. But within reason, anything that interests me or inspires me, I'll shoot it as well. Yeah, but then there's... not always to—like fishing, for example, I'm never going to take photos of fishing. I'll go fishing. Or I'll go ride my bike or go tramping or whatever it may be, but I'm probably not going to shoot those things anymore. I'm just focusing on shooting surfing. Yeah. One day I'd love... I sell prints at the moment, which is awesome. I think that's probably the best way to appreciate photography—blowing it up big, framed on the wall, whether it's an office or in your house or wherever it may be. I think print is slowly dying with surfing magazines and things like that. Everyone still loves seeing a photo blown up big. You can appreciate that a lot more than looking at it on your phone, you know what I mean? Yeah. So I think one day, pushing that further, I'd love to make a book of some sort. When I was at university, I made one—like, just a 130-page kind of magazine. I only made 100 copies, I think, of it, which is cool to look back on. But yeah, I'd love to come up with some big adventure that kind of deserves to have a book made about it. Yeah, if that makes sense. I'm not sure exactly what that would look like at the moment, but whether it's... I know a few ideas could be driving around the whole of South America for a year or two with a couple of mates and just going surfing, exploring new cultures, new places, food, people, landscapes, waves, all of that. But yeah, I mean, like, who wouldn't love to look at a book full of cool images of a trip like that, you know what I mean? Yeah, and going... for me, travelling and adventure and things like that—going to different places that are out of the way, that are harder to get to, that are more dangerous—whatever, that makes them more interesting to me. Yeah, everyone goes to Hawaii. Everyone goes to Fiji. Everyone goes to Indonesia and stuff, and they have some of the best waves in the world. But you've seen photos of them hundreds and hundreds of...

Michael Frampton
Times. It's been done to death. Yeah. Yeah, I want to see it. Sounds like you're very photojournalistically inclined.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah. In a way. Yeah, I think so, definitely. Yeah. You would have seen some of the boys—Guy Williment and Spencer Frost and Lettie, and a few of those other boys all went to Russia. Yeah, they went surfing on the—I think it was the Kamchatka Peninsula, which is above Japan. Yeah, surfed in the snow over there for three months. I'm like, that's awesome. No one's been over there, surfed over there, lived over there—well, from our point of view, you know what I mean? It's just something so out there and so unique that... yeah, that inspires me. And trips like that are what I'd love to do. Why not go to Chile or... thank you, I don't know... yeah, Africa, Madagascar, India. Like, you know, there's a lot of countries out there with incredible coastline.

Michael Frampton
A lot of islands. Yeah. Around, not far from New Zealand, like Norfolk Island. I'm sure it's been shot before—waves.

Oscar Hetherington
But... probably got good. Yeah, one of my big goals would be travelling and shooting and surfing, for sure.

Michael Frampton
I'd say so. Yeah.

Oscar Hetherington
Where to first? I don't know. Good question. There's too many options at the moment.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, well, you never know what might happen with the Billabong...

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, exactly. Might lead, for sure.

Michael Frampton
Somewhere else. Yeah.

Oscar Hetherington
And it's a funny one too. I find a lot of people all around the world—but in New Zealand too—they'll go on surf trips to Hawaii or Indonesia, Bali, wherever. But I feel like there's so many good waves that are undiscovered around New Zealand too. A lot of them have been discovered now, but like, yeah, there's still places I haven't been to—Taranaki yet. Yeah, which blows your mind, but you know, it's only a few hours in the car.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, there's places everywhere. I mean, I lived in California, which is crowded. It's crazy crowded. But you can drive half an hour out of town and surf by yourself.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, exactly.

Michael Frampton
And that's true almost anywhere. If you're willing to go a little bit further than everyone else, you find waves that aren't crowded. And that's what every surfer listening to this wants—uncrowded waves.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, exactly.

Michael Frampton
Everyone's complaining about how crowded it is, but just get in the car or travel. I think travel and adventure is certainly not lost in surfing. It's not as... the surfing magazines used to document it so much—yeah, that whole travelling adventure aspect of it. And now it's all, like you said, it's all the best shots from Hawaii or whatever swells.

Oscar Hetherington
Yeah, it's an interesting one. Another person that's inspired me a lot, shooting-wise, has been Nick Green. I don't know if you've seen some of his stuff. He's based in Tasmania in Aussie. And I don't know, he's just... he's an amazing photographer. But he's shooting waves that a lot of people, like, don't know where they are. You know, no one's seen them before. And he's got some good mates who are incredible surfers who make the place look amazing too. But it's all this new imagery coming out. Everyone's seen shots of Snapper and Bells and WA and Margaret River and all of that. But like Tasmania... yeah, it'll be cold and stuff, but yeah, there's awesome waves everywhere. So just got to go out and find them, I guess, really.

Michael Frampton
Yep. Yeah. Go out and find them. That's a good place to end, man. Thanks so much for taking the time to...

Oscar Hetherington
Chat. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Thanks very much for having me on.

95 Oscar Hetherington - Award Winning Surf Photographer

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

Can you stay surf-stoked into your 60s—and still out-paddle the groms? Iain “Ratso” Buchanan proves it’s possible.

This episode dives into the life and lessons of one of New Zealand’s most accomplished surfers and coaches. From humble beginnings and DIY wetsuits to judging the WSL’s best, Ratso shares how to extend your surfing life, read the ocean like a pro, and why so many surfers—especially beginners—are missing the most important skills.

• Learn what actually holds back New Zealand surfers and how to level up by heading across the ditch

• Hear untold stories of surf culture evolution—from rugby jerseys to custom twin-fins

• Discover life-saving advice for adult learners, including the #1 ocean skill you must master first

Press play now to learn how a lifelong frother stays sharp, safe, and stoked—and how you can too.

Iain's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ratsonz/?hl=en

Surf Shop: https://lionrocksurfshop.com

Music: Fernweh by Nachur

Key Points

• Ian Buchanan's lifelong passion for surfing, starting from his early years in Christchurch, and his diverse roles in the surfing industry including competitor, coach, shaper, and judge, were discussed.

• The evolution of wetsuit technology from the 60s to the present, including homemade wetsuits and the current ease of access to high-quality, affordable wetsuits, was explored.

• Ian's advice for young New Zealand surfers to improve their skills by traveling to Australia, where the level of competition and wave quality is higher, was emphasized.

• The importance of swimming ability and understanding ocean conditions for adult learners in surfing was highlighted, with Ian sharing his experience and advice.

• Ian discussed the influence of experienced surfers, particularly older ones, in reading the ocean and navigating challenging conditions, citing examples of surfers he admires.

• Ian shared his current favorite surfboard, a 5'7 20 with a stabilizer, and his experimentation with different board designs and materials, emphasizing the importance of local craftsmanship.

• The best and worst surfing advice Ian has received, emphasizing the importance of surfing within one's comfort zone and avoiding dangerous conditions, was discussed. 

Outline

Ian Buchanan's Background and Passion for Surfing

• Ian Buchanan, born in the 60s, started surfing in the early 70s and has been deeply involved in the surfing industry ever since.

• Ian has been a long-time judge for the WSL, a five-time national champion in New Zealand during the 80s, shapes surfboards, owns a surf shop, and was the New Zealand national team coach.

• Ian was on the world tour as a competitor when younger and was crowned the Grand Master World Champ in 2011.

• Ian's passion for surfing began at an early age, leaving high school at 15 to pursue surfing full-time.

• Ian moved to Australia at 16, where they faced high unemployment and started working at Genius Surfboards in Cronulla.

Wetsuit Technology in the 60s

• In the 60s, wetsuit technology for young surfers was minimal, often consisting of long Johns with a vest underneath.

• Surfers would make their own booties and gloves from sheets of rubber purchased from dive shops.

• Before wetsuits, surfers wore rugby jerseys to stay warm in cold water.

Ian's Current Relationship with Surfing

• Ian surfs almost every day, describing themselves as a 'grommet at heart'.

• Ian's friends often tease them about their passion for surfing.

• Ian surfs multiple times a day, regardless of conditions, and has been very lucky with injuries throughout their career.

Ian's Surfing Longevity

• Ian attributes their surfing longevity to following their heart and pursuing what they love.

• Ian's marriage ended, and they traveled to Europe, following their passion for surfing.

• Ian has made many connections in Australia, which have helped in their surfing career, including board making and judging.

Ian's Advice for Young Surfers

• Ian advises young New Zealand surfers to travel to Australia to take their surfing to the next level.

• Ian mentions that all successful New Zealand surfers, such as Maz, Randy Mason, and Paige, have spent time in Australia.

• Ian emphasizes the importance of the quality and consistency of waves in Australia for improving surfing skills.

Ian's Experience as a WSL Judge

• Ian describes the experience of judging WSL events as amazing and surreal, seeing the highest level of surfing live.

• Ian notes that the level of surfing raises every year and that surfers go much faster on waves than the average person realizes.

• Ian highlights the importance of learning to surf different types of waves and reading the ocean to improve one's surfing.

Ian's Most Intense Surfing Experience

• Ian's most intense surfing experience was at Sunset, where they got beaten by a wave and had to climb their leg rope to reach the surface.

• Ian also mentions memorable waves in Tahiti, J-Bay, and Hawaii, particularly Sunset.

Advice for Adult Learners in Surfing

• Ian emphasizes the importance of having a good level of swimming ability before learning to surf.

• Ian advises adult learners to be aware of their abilities and not to surf in conditions beyond their skill level.

• Ian shares a personal experience of having to swim in after breaking their leash in challenging conditions.

Surfers Ian Admires

• Ian admires surfers like John, Medina, Dane Reynolds, and several other top performers for their incredible maneuvers and wave negotiation skills.

• Ian respects the older generation of surfers for their experience and ability to read the ocean, citing examples like Peter Cole and Kelly Slater.

• Ian highlights the rise in the level of women's surfing and the surge of young talent in the sport.

Ian's Current Favorite Surfboard

• Ian's current favorite surfboard is a 5'7" 20 with a stabilizer that they made themselves.

• Ian has been experimenting with different boards and fins, including single fins, and has been inspired by other shapers like Greg Weber.

• Ian enjoys riding old boards collected by Daniel Davey, son of Bob Davey, and appreciates the craftsmanship of local shapers.

Ian's Best and Worst Surfing Advice

• Ian's best surfing advice is to surf within one's ability and not to step out of their comfort zone unless they are comfortable with the conditions.

• Ian's worst surfing advice was being talked into surfing in dangerous conditions, which led to severe consequences and a negative experience.

• Ian advises against surfing alone, emphasizing the importance of having a partner for safety.

Transcription

Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the first episode for 2024. Just finished the summer holidays here in New Zealand. Been surfing almost every day with the kids, which has been a blessing. I actually recorded this episode with Iain Buchanan, the eternal grom, just before the school holidays. So I got a nice little hit of inspiration. Iain was born in the '60s and started surfing in the early '70s. And still... out there chasing waves, surfing multiple times a day. Even though he's been so deeply involved with surfing for so long, he's still just got this fascination with surfing. You may already know who Iain “Ratso” Buchanan is—his most famous role internationally, at least within surfing, is he's been a long-time judge for the WSL. In New Zealand during the '80s, he was five times national champ. He shapes surfboards here in New Zealand. He owns a surf shop here in New Zealand. He used to be the New Zealand national team coach. He was on the world tour as a competitor when he was younger. In 2011 he was crowned the Grand Master World Champ. The list goes on, but without further ado... I give you my conversation with Iain “Ratso” Buchanan.

Michael Frampton
I don't think there's anything that you haven't done in the surfing industry. You've been a high-level competitor, both young and old. Like you've coached at a high level, you shape, you've got a surf shop, you're judging. It's like, I don't think there's anything—there's nothing more left for you to do, man. Where does all this passion for surfing come from?

Iain Buchanan
I just knew at an early age, you know, that's all I wanted to do. I grew up in Christchurch and I... you know, it's pretty cold there in the winter and that, and I got to the point I was like, I left high school pretty early, like 15, and I passed my school certificate but I didn't hang around for university. I just couldn't fathom studying more and stuff like that. I just wanted to go surfing. I left and went to Australia. I'd just turned 16, yeah, so... I just always had the passion. I wanted to travel and go and surf the waves I was seeing in the magazines and stuff like that, and yeah, and I was interested in boards and stuff. When I was over in Australia, it was like, I was in '77 I went, you know. It was quite high unemployment there, and my sister was living over there—my older sister and her husband—they'd moved down to a place called Port Lincoln in South Australia. And they do the tuna fishing from there. And I just couldn't get any work, you know. And I was like, so I just wrote all these surfboard businesses in Australia, like on Gold Coast and Sydney and... I don't know where I’m going with that. And I got offered a job at Genius Surfboards in Cronulla. So that's how I got into that side of it. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. So you started surfing in Christchurch in the '70s. What was wetsuit technology like back then?

Iain Buchanan
For a grommet, it was fucking zero. And I was, you know, you'd buy, like say, an extra small, you know, that might hopefully fit you. Yeah. But it was always long johns with a vest underneath, you know? Yeah. And me and my friends, a couple friends, we used to go to like a dive shop and you could buy sheets or like a square sheet of rubber and we made our own booties and gloves. That's true. Yeah, and it was with dust glue. I can stitch them up because it was so cold, but no one made a wetsuit for teenagers or kids, you know? Yeah. And we used to wear—even before that—we used to wear rugby jerseys and pretend we were warm, you know? It's like, I mean, we'd surf through winter and it's amazing none of us got hypothermia really, you know.

Michael Frampton
Wow. Now everyone's jumping in ice baths and sort of recreating that.

Iain Buchanan
Yeah, we used to go to Kaikōura in school holidays and places like that and just camp on the point in a tent for a couple of weeks at Mangamaunu and that's it. It was a good time.

Michael Frampton
Wow. Yeah. The barrier to entry for surfing back then was you had to want it, right? If you wanted to surf, you had to put up with some of those things.

Iain Buchanan
Yeah. I had a friend that I grew up across the road from me. Originally, my parents lived just inland from the beach, place of St Albans, now Māori Hill, and we actually made trailers on the back of our bikes we could put boards on to bike to the beach, you know. And we used to ride to Brighton. We used to ride to Sumner as well. So it was a fair hike, you know, for a 12-year-old grommet or whatever, a 10-year-old grommet.

Michael Frampton
And then we were texting last week and you're still out there chasing swell, and so do you surf every day?

Iain Buchanan
Pretty much. I'm still a grommet at heart, I'd say, and my friends sort of, you know, they hassle me about that.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. How would you describe your current relationship with surfing and the oceans?

Iain Buchanan
I mean, if there's waves, I'll surf as much as I can. We've had a couple of swells recently on the East Coast. I surfed three times a day, like three days in a row, you know. So, yeah, I'm pretty much a grommet, you know. I'm the biggest grommet at Piha and, yeah. I don't care if it's shitty or onshore or whatever, I just go out, you know?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Has there been periods in your life where you haven't surfed much by injury or work or anything like that?

Iain Buchanan
That's a good question. Yes. I've been very lucky with injuries, touch wood. Most of my career I haven't had anything major at all. But yeah, I got locked into business quite a bit in Auckland, and I came back from Australia permanently sort of 1990. The guy who I teamed up with—we had the Hot Buttered agency, right? I used to work for Territory Bureau in Sydney for 12 years. And so we'd moved shop to Newmarket, which is like the prime area of retail in Auckland City, and we were probably the first kind of big-scale surf shop and it really took off, you know. We had off-street parking, which was a big factor there because it's such a hassle for parking and stuff. We actually put the surfboard factory underneath the shop, you know, so we had two levels and yeah, it was cranking. Basically, I was sort of sales repping the clothing we were doing, and we were bringing other stuff in. We were doing Burford blanks and other brands from overseas. So yeah, I was working 60–70 hours a week. Maybe surfing on Sunday if I was lucky. So yeah, that was one time I was not surfing as much as I'd like to, yeah.

Michael Frampton
So what do you attribute your surfing longevity to?

Iain Buchanan
I've always kind of like... when I was there, and I—because I'd been on the tour—and I got married at 33, and then I worked solidly doing that for like 10 years almost. And then I got invited to go to the Masters a couple of times, and then I didn't go. And then I finally went and I had a little spark in me again, you know, and it’s like, wow, it felt like I was like... it was going to be marriage, kids, the picket fence, and that’s your life. And it's like, I was just like, shit, I'm too young for it, you know. I felt like there's more to life, you know. Yeah, so my marriage kind of finished and I bailed and went to Europe and... I just followed my heart and that's what I wanted to do, you know, so yeah. And I had made a lot of connections in Australia, and that's helped me a lot in my life with overseas stuff and, yeah, in board making and judging circles and stuff like that. So yeah, I just... that's all I want to do is be involved in surfing, yeah.

Michael Frampton
So is it literally as simple as just the froth for chasing swells and just seeking that next surf and surfing itself? Is it that simple? Is that what keeps you going?

Iain Buchanan
Yeah, I mean, I wake up every day pretty much like most surfers, and I just watch the surf lights. So, yeah, I’m in a lucky position that... well, because of my overseas work, I have a little surf shop at Piha, so I've got quite a lot of freedom, you know. And we have a house we rent out as well. I can do that, you know, and my partner’s very... she’s very accommodating. She knows what she’s signed up for going out with me. You know, it’s... yeah. She's from Wamberal. So she’s been brought up with the whole surfing culture too. So yeah, she loves traveling. So if there’s any waves, I'm going.

Michael Frampton
And then throughout your surfing journey, have you ever... have you ever hit sort of plateaus in your progression? And is there anything that you’ve learned? Have you had surf coaching done before? Like how did you get so good at surfing?

Iain Buchanan
I think the biggest—not a single—most important reason was I went to Australia. For sure, you know. And I didn’t realise—I was okay as a little junior in Christchurch—but no, and then I went to Australia and when I went to Cronulla, it was like another whole world opened up. In South Australia, it was like we were... Port Lincoln’s like... it's quite out there, and it was like we used to surf at places like Streaky Bay and this place—the right-hander at Cape Fowler, not Cape Fowler, I can’t remember, there's a bay near Port Lincoln—it’s right-handed, but, and Cactus and places like that, but it’s like basically in the desert, you know. And it was super sharky, you know, and I think pretty crazy back in those days at 16. I’d never go back there and do that again, but we did it. But when I went to Cronulla, that was just dog-eat-dog and the level was so high, you know, and that’s where I progressed quickly, you know. Hard to get a wave. You know, it was... and being one of the only kind of Kiwis there too, so I used to cop all the shit from those Australian guys. And you just learn to be tougher and more hungry kind of thing and get the mongrel in you. And I... my level rose a lot, yeah, and I didn’t really realise it until I came back to New Zealand and they started the... like a national circuit—I think it was like 1980—and I came back and I started winning contests and I didn’t realise I was that good, you know, and I thought, shit, I'm okay, you know. And then, you know, then the thruster happened—it was ’81—so things changed like that too. But yeah, like the New Zealand circuit, that’s where I first realised I had... you know. And then Gerry Fitzgerald, he saw me at one event—he came over to New Zealand—and he offered me a deal. That included like shaping for him, like so to have a job as well. So that was very cool. Yeah. It was a big part of my life, for sure.

Michael Frampton
So if there's any young New Zealand surfers that want to take their surfing to the next level, would that be your advice? To travel, go to Australia?

Iain Buchanan
Definitely go to Australia. And I’ve been telling just about all the young kids I’ve been talking to here—you’ve got to do that. I mean, everyone that has made it in New Zealand, like Maz and... Randy Mason and his sister Sarah and Paige and, you know, as well as Jay, you know, Bobby and yeah, anyone who’s any good, and Ricardo Christie of course, but you’ve got to go. You can’t win in Australia or beat your Australians... like you’re not going to make it on the world tour. It's, you know, that’s the real... I mean, we’re lucky we have got Australia there to have those opportunities. And I don’t think a lot of people realise how major it was. Like Maz won the overall Australian title—you know, the best junior—and Arini did that twice, to beat all the Australians in Australia. It was super hard, you know? Yeah. And Kahu's done that too. That’s the best thing for sure: go to Australia.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I remember when I grew up surfing in New Zealand and then I didn’t get to Australia till I was in my 30s, and I ended up on the Northern Beaches. And was just blown away by not only the level of surfing and the rawness and mongrel-ness, as you said, of the surfers themselves, but just the quality and consistency of waves. You know, just surfing good waves almost every day. And there's no continental shelf. You know, New Zealand has such a big continental shelf, so the swell almost gets sort of dissipated. Even when the swell is big here in New Zealand, it sort of comes in with so much less energy than it does in Australia. So I just saw my surfing level increase so much just by living in Australia for a while. Yeah. So I can second that. Yeah.

Iain Buchanan
Yeah. I mean, most of the kids in Australia, everyone’s lived around the coast, especially the East Coast, so they have quite an easy access to the beach at an early age. They can just ride their bike after school or whatever, where a lot of places in New Zealand, they don’t have that as much access. And the areas where they do, traditionally the best surfers do come from New Zealand, like your Gisborne or your Raglan or your New Plymouth or some parts of Auckland or whatever, Northland. But yeah, because they can easily get to the beach quite easily on their own, you know, on the bike or whatever. But yeah. I mean, I remember at Canberra, even the average guy, some of the thugs at the pub, you know, the local drunks—you’d see them out in the surf one day. They could usually surf pretty good too, you know. So it’s, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was good fun there. Australia was really good.

Michael Frampton
And what about—so you’ve obviously traveled with the WSL and ASP as a judge, and you’ve been around, you know, the best surfers in the world. What has that experience taught you about surfing, and how has it affected your own approach to surfing?

Iain Buchanan
It’s amazing to be involved with all that. And it’s like, what you see is the level just raises all the time, like every year. And so it’s like, yeah, it’s pretty surreal to see what’s possible, you know, and see it live. And I think from New Zealand—going even now—like, people don’t realize how fast these surfers surf on a wave. They actually go a lot faster than what you see the average. I mean, the quality of the waves we have in New Zealand, there should be more better surfers, really, you know. And that’s quite a weird thing. I think it’s mainly the population, I guess. But you see, yeah, and I think it’s just the same thing—like seeing that, being around all these guys at that level—yeah, I just try and push myself as much as possible too, you know. And surfing a lot of different waves too is a factor, and that helps your surfing and learning how to surf those different waves and reading waves and what different things—reefs or deep sea waves like at Sunset and places like that—stuff you don’t usually get to surf. So yeah, that’s... it’s a learning curve the whole time, you know. And we stay at a house at Sunset every year. They put us in this house, and it’s right in front. It’s like where we actually judge from this contest. And so we pretty much surf that most of the time. And that’s—you know, you get the biggest wave of your whole year pretty much every year. And you’ll get the biggest beating of the whole year, you know? So it’s a humbling experience, but it’s pretty fun, you know. So you step out of your comfort zone, and so you’ve got to crack out seven-footers and eight-footers—waves you don’t usually ride, you know—so that’s a learning curve, big time.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. It is interesting how you don’t—look, obviously there’s been a handful of surfers that have made the highest level of surfing from New Zealand—but it’s not really happening for us. Whereas the Aussies are dominating, right? And then the Americans, they travel to Hawaii and they have those experiences there, and they’re up there. Why do you think that is? Because New Zealand—look at rugby. We’re dominant at rugby. We’re right up there with lots of other team sports. We seem to be able to compete internationally. But surfing... why do you think that is?

Iain Buchanan
I think initially, if you want to go the competition route, it’s like—you need money, you need sponsorship. So that’s a hard thing. And traditionally, the Australian—you know, all the companies are Australian-owned, not so much these days. But so, yeah, I mean, it’s like basically you need to have a good sponsorship to be able to do that. There’s been periods—like the best generation, I think, was when there was Maz and Daniel Kereopa and, yeah, there’s Blair Stewart and, you know, Chrissy Malone and, you know, and then Bobby Hansen and Jay Quinn came up. You know, like that sort of era was one of the best growth groups through the juniors right through to the Open. Like Maz and Kereopa were winning QSs overseas, which is pretty unbelievable really. And Paige too—she won Margaret River, you know. On the steps, every time you walk up the steps, there’s her name, you know. So it’s like, yeah, it’s the same. The Aussies had dominance for quite a while. But then it swings. And the Brazilian thing has been happening. You know, they’ve had the last four world champions. So things go in swings, you know. And the Brazilians for many years were showing the potential, and once their generation came through with the Medinas and all that, you know—that’s the same with Tom Curren and, you know, so yeah. There hasn’t been an American... yeah, apart from what’s happening now, for quite a while either, really.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Maybe we’ll get our turn soon.

Iain Buchanan
Yeah. But I mean, Ricardo Christie—he made podium, and what was it? Haleiwa? Sunset? Yeah, he’s pretty good. Yeah, Sunset. Yeah, so that’s—you know, he’s made the podium the last eight years. Pretty epic, you know. So I think he’s the first guy since... Fancey, no? Back in the day. Yeah. But it takes time on those sort of waves too, you know. You just can’t rock up. There’s very few guys who just rock up and dominate, you know, like that. Maybe Occy or Tom Carroll or someone like that at Pipe. But they’re the freaks, you know. I mean, Dino—you’ve got to really want it, like you said at the beginning. Some of those kids that you get over in those sort of places—I mean, Jason Matthews from New Plymouth, he was really good. Yeah, he was good in the hotel, yeah. Yeah, so it’s like those sort of things, you know. If you’re used to sort of surfing more powerful waves, you know, no problem with size. Kereopa’s good at that. And there’s a few other guys too in the country who are pretty good at it. So hats off to them, you know.

Michael Frampton
All those names you just listed in New Zealand surfing just reminds me of the Coastal Disturbance series. Videos.

Iain Buchanan
Yeah, Blair Stewart was the... he was just—what he used to do in Hawaii and stuff—it was crazy, you know. Like, he had big respect from a lot of people. Yeah. Sam Willis. Sam Willis is another good one. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
What’s been your most intense surfing experience, and where was it?

Iain Buchanan
Yeah, probably Sunset for sure, I’d say, as far as getting beatings. I had my vest tied to my board shorts, right, you know—I had to have it. Yeah. And it was only about three years ago, and I made the drop on this wave, but the lip kind of landed behind me on the back of the board, and I got sort of pretty much drilled, you know. And I got pushed right down, and my vest went up and over my head. And I’m under the water trying to get it back over my head, and it’s just like—I’m down, you know, deep, and I’m trying to get up, and it lasted a while, you know, and I was kind of starting to freak a bit. And I ended up having to climb up my leg rope to get to the surface. Pretty freaky. And then the next one hit me. So that was something I’ll never forget, yeah. Yeah. I’ve had—as far as, you know, like good, yeah, memorable waves—I like Tahiti. I’ve been going there for a long time. And a little bit Indo and J-Bay. Pretty epic. Yeah, I love J-Bay. And I’ve had good memories of Tahiti for a long time going there. And I love Hawaii too, mostly Sunset, because that’s where we hang. And yeah.

Michael Frampton
So what about in terms of the surf culture—like, let me ask you, if I was to start—if I was an adult learner and I wanted to get into surfing... obviously, it’s really easy nowadays. You get a reasonably cheap wetsuit—wetsuits are so good now—even a cheap one’s going to fit well and keep you warm. You get a cheap soft top, and you just get a lesson from the local surf school, and next thing you know you think you’re a surfer. But that seems to, I think—that easy entry into surfing leaves a lot of things off the table. And there’s a lot of, sort of—I guess those adult learners can be looked down upon by more experienced surfers. What do you think is missing from that education? And if there’s anything that you wanted to say to these new surfers, what would it be?

Iain Buchanan
Have a reasonably good level of swimming—ability to swim. And that’s something my father taught. He was always a good swimmer, and when he realised the surfing thing was just not a phase and that it was my thing, he said, “Right.” He made me come to a swimming pool. He made me learn to swim a mile before he let me keep doing it all the time, which is pretty... yeah. To be able to swim and have that ability—I think it’s super important. And like you say, people like that can get in a situation pretty quickly where they’re just out of their depth, you know. And it’s funny when you see people—well, not funny—but it’s ironic. You see people in those situations, and a lot of people—they get off their board for some reason, you know, and they don’t realise it’s a flotation device that can help, you know. So yeah, I think be aware of their ability too. You know, like, I mean, surfing’s—you’re dealing with the ocean. It’s like nowhere the same. It’s one of the only sports like that, where you’re dealing with Mother Nature. Because you can go, like, snowboarding, say—pretty much anyone can sort of reasonably do it in a day. You know? Be able to go down a mountain, you know? Like, you can turn and have an okay day and enjoy yourself. But surfing, you can try, you know, for six months or a year, and you can still be nowhere near what you think you would be like, you know. So I’ve got my little surf shop at Piha—Lion Rock Surf Shop—and I do a lot of rentals. And a lot of times, people come in and I just go, I won’t rent because the conditions are too bad, you know. And they’ll insist on it, and I’ll go, “Look, go down. You look to the beach. Go and look at the beach,” you know. “Go and check it out. It’s like way bigger and nastier than you think.” You know? “Yeah. And there’s a reason why there’s no one out,” you know.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. No, if you can’t swim the conditions, you shouldn’t be out there trying to surf the conditions.

Iain Buchanan
No.

Michael Frampton
No. I remember I was out surfing Germans on the Northern Beaches, and it was close to triple overhead. And it’s quite far out from the shore, and I broke my leash. And I had to swim in. And, you know, in a four-metre swell, and it’s a good, you know, almost half a k out to sea. And if my swimming fitness hadn’t been up to scratch, then, you know, I might have been in a hell of a lot of trouble. So I, you know—luckily I was super fit and I could swim, and I’d been training for that winter a lot. So it’s—surfing is—and you know, it can be small and there can be a nasty little rip or an undertow that can really challenge your fitness levels.

Iain Buchanan
Yeah, that is exactly right. That actually happened last week with me. I’m at Whangamatā at the moment, and it was like that. It was like a nice little right-hand rip bowl, and there was a couple of us out, and there’s a guy on a stand-up paddle, and he’s a good surfer—I know him very well—and he’s a little bit older than that. And he lost his stand-up paddle, you know, and it got in. But the rip was so strong, he’s swimming in and he’s got the paddle, you know, and I look around—he was getting nowhere at all, you know. So I paddled into the beach and got his board and brought it back out for him, because he—yeah, the rip was just strong enough that, you know, anyone was struggling, you know. And it wasn’t even three foot, you know?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, the ocean is a humbling place for sure. Yeah. As a surfer, who inspires you the most? Who do you look up to?

Iain Buchanan
I like—well, where we are, there’s definitely a hierarchy, and some of the guys, the elder guys—and it’s pretty cool when a proper set on a swell comes through, they’re the guys who get the waves. I think that’s—so I look up to that sort of thing. As far as performance goes, like—it’s pretty unbelievable what people like John and Medina and several other guys can do. Dane Reynolds is another one we’ve seen live. It’s like—just how the hell did they make that maneuver or that barrel? Or just the sheer difficulty of negotiating that wave and those sections is just—yeah, it’s amazing to see. Medina—he treats any break like a beach break. He just... it doesn’t matter how big or gnarly it is or what the reef or whatever—he’s just attacking it like it’s a three-foot wave or something. It’s quite crazy to see, you know. The level of women’s surfing has been unbelievable too. Some of the young girls coming through now—there’s been a definite surge. That’s pretty good to see too, you know. The level’s really risen high, yeah. I do respect the older guys too. If you think back on the equipment—it wasn’t like how it’s changed so much. I remember the first time I ever went to Hawaii, and it was in the early ’80s, and I was out at Sunset, and it was like this big west swell was happening. And this set’s come through, and I’m like, “Shit.” And it’s like everyone’s scratching for their lives, and I’m like, “What do I do? What do I do?” And I saw this guy—Peter Cole. And he was, like, a lot older—from magazines and that. I just recognized him from the magazines. I never met the guy. And I saw, “That’s Peter Cole.” I said, “If anyone knows where to go, it’s that guy.” So I just followed his ass over these waves, and I know I got out the back because of that. So it’s... you can’t buy experience. The guys who are cool and calm in difficult conditions—and who can read the ocean too—you know, like Curren’s pretty unbelievable like that. He’s got a bit of a zen-like factor. And yeah, there’s a few guys like that, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, that’s really good advice. I learned that a long time ago. If you see an older, experienced surfer sitting out there—everyone’s sitting there—and then all of a sudden you see one of the older guys jump on his board and start paddling out the back, and you’re like, “Why is he doing that?” No one else has seen a set coming in. He saw the set before everyone else. So you’re best to just take his lead and start paddling. And yeah, little things like that—because those older guys that are experienced, they don’t have the fitness level of the younger dudes, so it’s experience and the way they read the ocean—that’s what sets them apart. And that’s something Tom Carroll taught me a long time ago. It was like, your ability to finely read the ocean is what separates the great surfers from just the good ones.

Iain Buchanan
Yeah, and of course I shouldn't forget Atlas—Slater, of course. He's like—no, he's... yeah, he's the king of all that stuff. But I'll never forget, I was judging the Volcom event at Pipe a few years ago or so, and it was Jamie O'Brien. And at one point, it's like the last minute counting down, and he was going against John, and he paddled up to John and shook his hand, you know. And it's like 30 seconds counting down, and I think even Jamie had priority too. John John just like turned around—he saw this wave from Gums, which is like off the reef there—and he paddled over, and it's the last 10 seconds counting. He managed to swing and catch it. And Jamie just couldn’t get to it. And he got like a 9.8 on that wave. He read the wave—yeah, he read the ocean. So that knowledge and ability to read stuff, yeah, for sure.

Michael Frampton
Do you sometimes surprise yourself with your ability and instinct to read the ocean?

Iain Buchanan
I watch that a lot, you know, like I'll just see how I am. Like guys down here, you know, for our fingers to groms. And yeah, I... like for example, last Sunday night I was waiting—I could see the tide was going out. I knew Whangapoua could have been okay, you know, but it was like—it got to, it was like 20 past eight, I think. It was only half an hour till dark. And then I noticed there’s like three people outside, so I just went out. And it was three grommets on foamies just having fun. The tide went out enough that the last half hour was pretty bloody good actually. Yeah. And, you know, good three foot and just peeling and just—my God, heaps of waves, you know. So... yeah, just—I know living at Piha, reading the West Coast is very changeable too. And being up on the hill, you can see the banks—different up at North Piha compared to South Piha. And yeah, certain times the tide’s low enough or high enough, it’s going to turn on. And I’ve had many surfs at Piha like that just by watching, you know. Watching a lot. And it turns on all of a sudden and it’s just like—could be a Sunday night at 7:30, you know—everyone’s having dinner and drinking a few beers. It’s like, shit, it’s on. Just go out and be with a couple of mates.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, surfing’s like that. It’s when the stars align and the tide and the bars and the swell and the wind all line up. You’ve got to take those opportunities.

Iain Buchanan
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Sure. What’s currently your favorite surfboard?

Iain Buchanan
I’ve been riding a 5'7" twinny with a stabiliser that I made myself. I’ve made a couple, and I didn’t used to ride twinnies at all. I was always a single fin man when I was—before the thruster. And when the twinnies came out I kind of liked the slidey feel of them, you know. But I had a go on a friend’s board in Nicaragua because my boards got left in L.A. And I borrowed a board—and even a four fin too—it went pretty good, way better than I thought actually, yeah. And then he let me have a go on a twinny with a stabiliser, and yeah, it changed the way I thought, you know. And I made a couple of single fins too for myself recently, or last couple of years, and been riding those a bit as well. I’ve been probably experimenting more than I ever have in my life in the last three or four years. And looking back at other shapers too. Like I used to work at G&S with Greg Webber, and then he went to Hot Buttered, and I did too. That was quite interesting being at the same place. I’m good friends with Greg, and he’s always been very into pushing the boundaries and stuff. And yeah, I like a lot of the stuff he does. And checking fins too—I’ve been getting into, especially single fins. The fins make a huge difference. I’ve been experimenting a lot with that. And I surf a lot with Daniel Davey—Bob Davey’s son. Yeah. And he’s constantly collecting old boards of Bob’s over the years, and he’s just got boards coming out of the house—his wife’s not happy—but he’s buying something every week, it’s crazy. But he’s got some unbelievable boards. And yeah, so I ride some of those sometimes just for fun, yeah. But my current one is my 5'7" twinny with a stabiliser, and using different fins. I’ve been riding it in bigger surf too. And I’ve got shitloads of boards I’ve been making, so I’ve got a different kind of range of pins too, you know, like step-ups and stuff made from different materials too. A friend of mine works in the California surf industry and he’s given me some different cloth and stuff like that to try. It’s amazing. Yeah. That’s good. I’m not really into—I haven’t been really into—the epoxies, you know. Like a lot of guys ride epoxies, and yeah. It never ceases to amaze me—especially when I go back to Piha in a big, chunky surf—and guys are still trying to ride their six-foot epoxy boards. And it’s like, you know, six foot plus and thick waves, and it’s like big waves—you’re on bigger boards, it’s a no-brainer. And they wonder why they’re struggling, you know. Yeah. Know what you’re riding, for a start—you know, like construction and that sort of stuff, you know.

Michael Frampton
So it sounds like experimenting with different boards has been something that’s helped keep you inspired and keeping things fresh.

Iain Buchanan
Yeah, I love making boards. I had a period—well, still quite a lot—because I’ve been travelling so much. I don’t shape as much as I would like to, but I still have the passion for shaping, for sure. I love it. And I think Daniel’s father’s place has been rented out. I think they’re moving out this month. He’s still got the old factory up there. So yeah, we’re going to clean that out and be able to make boards up there again. Pretty exciting to look forward to, and my friends, and just making them for my shop, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. Are you making boards commercially or just for yourself or a bit of both?

Iain Buchanan
Just me. So yeah, I’ve got a bit of interest here, so it’s good, yeah. And working with another guy here—Mark O’Connor—he does Mojo Handshapes here in Whanga, and he makes all his boards from start to finish and good gloss coats and finishing like that, like the old style kind of thing. It’s good quality boards, you know. And he makes all kinds and specializes in mals and that too, so that’s, you know, that old sort of quality of how boards are made too—it’s the craftsmanship. You know, good to work around, you know. I’ve worked with a lot of people overseas and, you know, it’s a big respect. But I have glasses—unbelievable, you know. I don’t really like glassing that much. I don’t sand or anything. But the guys who are really good sanders—they make or break a board too. So it’s, yeah, big respect for those people, you know. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we’ve got guys—I don’t know—guys at Piha, they’ll go and spend $1,000 or $1,200 on an import from overseas. But then they wouldn’t—you know—they wouldn’t put that money towards a local guy, you know? Like there’s a few good guys that make boards in Auckland, and that’s what they’re competing with. All these imports that all the commercial shops are bringing in by the containers, or else they buy them shipped from Australia or whatever, you know. And that sort of thing. There’s still some very good manufacturers in New Zealand, you know. Pete Anderson here. Wayne Parks is still going up at Waipu Cove. It’s like—quality unsurpassed really. His level is incredible. And he’s brought through a whole lot of young shapers. Well, you know. Well, best quality.

Michael Frampton
Well, this board just behind me here—that’s a Jordan Griffin fish. Yeah, great board. You know, I was in the States riding a Christensen fish, and this Jordan Griffin fish surfs just as well. And it’s probably better made actually. It’s probably—the quality of the glassing on that board’s going to last forever. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, it’s a shame. It’s a shame people fall victim to marketing, I think.

Iain Buchanan
Yeah, exactly.

Michael Frampton
No, you can’t beat the type of board that you get from a local shaper that’s been glassed locally. It’s going to probably cost you a little bit less, and it’s probably going to last you a lot longer too than something that’s been popped out and shipped over here. Yeah. I’ll ask you one more question before we leave you.

Iain Buchanan
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Support your local shaper. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
What’s the best surfing advice you’ve ever got, and what’s the worst surfing advice you’ve ever got?

Iain Buchanan
You’ve just got to surf to your ability. Like, I mean, if it’s not—like when you go somewhere like Hawaii or whatever—it’s like, you shouldn’t be forced to go out in what you’re not comfortable with, you know. Because it’s a time thing—like getting used to it and progressing and being comfortable with that. So don’t step too far out of your comfort zone. I think that’s fair enough. The worst advice was—I have been dragged out in stuff that’s like, “Whoa, this is pretty major,” and been severely hammered and stuff like that. Or like, I’ve been out in conditions before when it’s like—it was very marginal and it did get quite dangerous, you know. So yeah, it’s like being talked into stuff when you think, “Nah, it’s not worth the risk,” you know? Yeah. Next thing is, “Shit, we’re in trouble,” you know?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. You’ve got to trust your instincts. I think, yeah, you’re right. It’s because if you let someone convince you to go out when it is a bit above your pay grade and you have a bad experience, that can be... that can hold you back for quite some time. It can put you off surfing. It can—you know, you’re risking your life in them.

Iain Buchanan
I had a bad experience with a guy, and it got worse and bigger and more. I go, “Shit, it’s pretty onshore, it’s pretty solid, and it’s not that great.” We checked it about two hours before, and it got worse. And we were struggling to get out, and he just got out. And it was like—the end of the beach was up here, and it went around these rocks to the next beach. And I’m like—I was just by the rocks—I was going, “Nah,” and just came in, you know, like I was going to get sucked around the rocks. And I got on the beach and I had to walk up the sand hill to see where he was and put my board up again. And he’s gone. And when he finally got in, he’s like, “I wish I didn’t go out.” I was going, “Yeah.” Yeah. Another one is—don’t surf by yourself. Because anything can happen. And the same guy, actually—he did this a week ago—and he got hit in the head with his board and got 10 stitches. And he had to swim in because he lost his board. Yeah. So, you know, and that was late too—it was like 8:30 at night. So it was—yeah, things can happen. No matter how good you are. You know, surfing by yourself—you know, out of your control. So not a good idea, I reckon, at any size. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
No, I totally agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s pretty hard to surf by yourself nowadays with the crowds. It is possible, though, but yeah—it’s not worth the risk. I’m sure you’re right. Well, Iain, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Iain Buchanan
Okay, thanks, Mike. It was good to talk to.

Michael Frampton
Alright, thanks mate. See ya.

94 Iain "Ratso" Buchanan - The Eternal Grom

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

Kassia Meador pic: @ez.rivero

Are you stuck in your surf journey—pushing harder, yet not progressing? What if the secret lies in slowing down?

In this episode, pro surfer Kassia Meador reveals how surfers at all levels can accelerate their growth by integrating surf etiquette, body awareness, and holistic healing practices like sound therapy and craniosacral work—insights especially vital for anyone recovering from injury or burnout.

• Discover how to progress faster through surf retreats in Morocco and Indonesia designed for deep connection and rapid improvement

• Learn why sound medicine and neurofeedback are becoming essential tools for surf recovery and performance

• Gain rare pro-level tips on lineup etiquette that can instantly transform your sessions and confidence

Hit play now to learn how to elevate your surf practice, heal deeply, and reconnect with the ocean—mindfully and powerfully.

https://kassiasurf.com/

(use discount 'surfmasterylove' at checkout for 25% off)

Retreats: https://www.saltysensations.com/ & https://kassiasurf.com/pages/retreats

Course: (use discount code 'Welcome10' for 10% off) Definitive Guide to Longboarding 3.0

Kassia's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kassiasurf/?hl=en

Surf Mastery website: https://surfmastery.com/

Key Points

• Kassia Myador emphasizes the importance of high-level surf coaching and creating a supportive environment for learning in her retreats.

• Kassia discusses the value of learning surf etiquette and developing a rapport with the ocean to improve lineup awareness and safety.

• Kassia highlights the common mistake of new surfers getting too comfortable and not pushing beyond their comfort zones to continue improving.

• Kassia describes her journey with head trauma, including multiple concussions, and the alternative therapies she pursued for recovery, such as neurofeedback and craniosacral therapy.

• Kassia discusses the use of sound and vibrational medicine, including sound baths and gongs, for healing and supporting the nervous system.

• Kassia talks about her plans to take a group to Indonesia for surfing retreats, highlighting the variety of waves and the fun, perfect conditions during the shoulder season.

• Kassia advises beginner surfers to have fun, not be too hard on themselves, and use the ocean as a mirror to reflect on their life and personal growth. 

Outline

Surfing Retreats and Salty Sensations

• Kassia has been running retreats for about seven years, both internationally and locally in Southern California.

• Kassia started Salty Sensations with Leah Dawson and Michaela Smith during the pandemic as a way for people to connect safely through surfing and camping.

• Salty Sensations began as local, long weekend retreats and expanded internationally two years ago.

• Kassia collaborates with local communities and hosts retreats in various locations, including Ireland and Morocco.

• The retreats offer high-level surf coaching in a supportive environment, focusing on community and learning.

• Participants often return to multiple retreats, showing progress in their surfing and community connections.

Surfing Ethics and Etiquette

• Kassia emphasizes the importance of learning surfing ethics and etiquette from experienced surfers.

• The retreats aim to improve lineup etiquette and awareness, contributing to better surfing communities.

• Kassia compares learning to surf to getting a driver's license, highlighting the dangers of inexperienced surfers.

• Kassia notes the frustration new surfers face when they don't progress as quickly as they expect.

Kassia's Surfing Journey

• Kassia started surfing in 1990, learning the ocean through junior lifeguards before surfing with her dad and his friends.

• Kassia's first surfing experience was at Leo Carrillo, with her first green wave caught at La Conchita.

• Kassia spent an entire summer camping and surfing at Leo Carrillo, learning the ocean extensively.

• Joel Tudor advised Kassia not to only surf perfect waves, encouraging her to adapt to different conditions.

• Kassia moved to Oceanside at 20 to surf more beach breaks, which she believes improved her overall surfing.

• Kassia prefers surfing lefts on a shortboard and rights on a longboard, particularly for nose riding.

Common Mistakes in Surfing

• Kassia identifies getting too comfortable and not pushing oneself as a common mistake among new surfers.

• Plateauing in surfing can lead to boredom and frustration, affecting one's attitude in the water.

• Kassia advises against complacency, encouraging surfers to seek new challenges and experiences.

• Kassia believes that the ocean reflects personal issues, such as control, and can be a tool for personal growth.

Kassia's Relationship with Surfing

• Kassia describes a renewed excitement and love for surfing, comparing it to her early days.

• Kassia took a seven-year break from surfing due to injuries and concussions, during which she focused on her business and healing.

• Kassia credits polarity therapy and craniosacral therapy for helping her recover from concussions.

• Kassia has experienced a full recovery and feels better than ever, attributing it to various therapies and lifestyle changes.

• Kassia emphasizes the importance of health and well-being, advocating for alternative therapies and low-inflammatory diets.

Sound Therapy and Vibrational Medicine

• Kassia is passionate about sound and vibrational medicine, using tools like sound bowls, gongs, and tuning forks.

• Kassia incorporates sound therapy into her retreats to support participants' nervous systems and overall well-being.

• Kassia and Michael discuss the neurological benefits of sound therapy, comparing it to other body work therapies.

• Kassia highlights the importance of finding what works for individual bodies and systems, whether it's chiropractic, acupuncture, or sound therapy.

• Kassia mentions her favorite surfboards, a nine-foot five-inch longboard shaped by Dane and a six-foot eight-inch twin pin by Alex Lopez.

Favorite Surfing Locations and Experiences

• Kassia's dream surfing location is Indonesia, particularly the Mentawai Islands, for their variety of waves.

• Kassia plans to take groups to Indonesia during the shoulder season for fun, perfect waves.

• Kassia uses sound bowls and other instruments in her retreats to support participants' experiences and healing.

Advice for Beginner Surfers

• Kassia advises beginner surfers to have fun and not be too hard on themselves, emphasizing the importance of enjoying the process.

• Kassia suggests that the ocean reflects personal issues and can be a mirror for growth and learning.

• Kassia encourages surfers to use moments of tension and frustration as opportunities for learning and progress.

Transcription

Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. Today's guest is Kassia Meador. Kassia embodies the ethos of this show, which is education and inspiration to improve the lives of surfers both in and out of the water. And that is exactly what Kassia is doing. Kassia spent some years on the World Surf League Longboard Tour and was ranked second in the world in 2011. She has her own brand. She has surfing courses online. She's running retreats. We discuss all of that in today's episode, and of course, links below to all of that stuff in the show notes. Stay tuned till the end for some discount codes as well.

Kassia Meador
Local honey gives you like allergen protection, so doing that and then just surfing as much as possible.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, did you surf today?

Kassia Meador
No, I haven't surfed the last two days. I've been stuck a little bit, stuck to my computer just catching up on things because I was gone for so long. Yeah, but I surfed Monday. Tuesday was really good.

Michael Frampton
Okay, where have you been? Traveling?

Kassia Meador
I've been, yeah. I was in France, and then from France, I went to Ireland, and then from Ireland, Morocco. So I was gone for two months, and then I came home and did a little retreat down south. And then I have another one in two weeks. So I've pretty much been gone and really only have this week and next week home to get caught up before I'm gone again. So it's been full on.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Did you have a retreat in Ireland as well? Is that why you were there?

Kassia Meador
I did, yeah. I did a retreat there with our Salty Sensations crew that I started with my friend Leah Dawson and Mikayla Smith. And then we team up with this awesome local Irish woman. She has a whole thing called Rebel Surf. So they're doing a lot for the Irish community and getting women in the water. Eastgate Britton came and read an excerpt from her book. And our friend Candice O'Donnell—long time, I think she was like British champ for a while, but she's a longboarder, friends with Leah and I, we've known her for a long time. I used to ride for Roxy with her as well. And so she came and helped us out. And we had a group of about—gosh, it was a co-ed retreat, and we had, I think like 10 guests, and it was fantastic.

Michael Frampton
When did that start and what was the impetus to start hosting these retreats?

Kassia Meador
You know, we started doing retreats—gosh, I want to say I've been doing retreats now for about seven years or more internationally. And then Leah and I started Salty Sensations actually during the middle of the pandemic. When nobody was really traveling, a lot of people were doing stuff just at home, you know, and wanting to connect. And kind of like camping was really one of the only ways that we could get together, and people could get together safely. So we started taking people surfing and camping here in Southern California. It was like an easy kind of long weekend during the middle of the week. So Mikayla Smith started coming down there with us, and then Andy Nieblas and, you know, some other awesome surfers. And we started these surfing and camping retreats that were like three days, kind of short little windows. And then last year—or two years ago now—we started taking them internationally. So that's cool. And we've been going to like kind of places more so off the beaten path with Salty Sensations. And then again, I do retreats and host retreats globally with other people. So, Morocco was more of like a Kassia surf retreat that I did with another friend who's a yogi, and Mikayla came with me to co-host that one. And then Morocco, like we worked with this awesome place and a friend of mine called Hamid. He has the O Surf Retreat, like Surf Club or whatever—Surf Club, I think is exactly what it's called. And he's awesome. He was my first guide in Morocco when I went there 15 years ago. But then Ireland was like Salty Sensation. So there's like a lot of different things happening. And then when we came back, the one that we have in two weeks is a Salty Sensations one. So there's kind of like multiple different things happening. Yeah, definitely.

Michael Frampton
All the time. So you're seeing quite a demand for these types of retreats?

Kassia Meador
I mean, I think what we offer is really unique in that a lot of people don't—you know, have gotten more so into surfing over the last five to 10 years, especially a lot of women coming into surfing. Maybe they surfed as a kid and they're getting back into it now. Or maybe they just found different time to get into surfing and they want to learn, they want to get better. And this is a way for people to learn in community, learn in different ways, and have a good time doing it. So it's awesome. It's awesome to witness people and their journeys. You know, now we've seen some people for a couple years in a row. People come back to multiple retreats. And so we're able to really witness their progress and then their progress with community and meeting up. And a lot of these people connect all over the world. And so then they become surf buddies, and they're able to bring it back to their community. And it's helping to grow. And I love it. And it's like—when do people have real access to learn from professional surfers? You know, a lot of people doing retreats and stuff out there are just kind of novice surfers themselves. And nothing bad about that. It's just what we're offering is really kind of high-level surf coaching in a really supportive environment. So it's a lot of fun.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, my previous guest said a piece of his advice was, “Don't watch people,” simply because most people don't surf that well. They don't approach the lineup very well. So his advice was don't watch them. Just choose one good person and watch that person. So, you see, you're kind of almost doing that on steroids a little bit. And do you think it's almost a step forward, creating a little community vibe like that where you're camping and surfing? It's kind of like a step back in time in some sort of way. It's like, this is how surfing used to be. We're going to kind of ignore the crowd, and we're going to keep sort of—but this is—because I can't imagine that these sort of camps would have worked 20 years ago. Because that was what surfing was anyway.

Kassia Meador
That's exactly it. And I love that you bring it up because I think like we're kind of like—we're around the same age, like I'm 41, you know, so I've been surfing for like almost 30 years. And when we grew up surfing, it was a lot smaller groups of people were surfing. Everybody kind of knew each other, and we would be camping and surfing and just hanging out together, surfing together, vibing out. Yeah. And I think just with how much time we've all spent in the water—between Mikayla, myself, Leah, and Andy, for instance—you know, between the Salty Sensations crew, there's like over 100 years of combined experience that we've had in the water, really, if you think about it that way. But this is our lives. This is what we do. And so we're able to create a really genuine and authentic atmosphere for people to learn in the ways that we learned. And I think that that's what's unique about our offering and what we're bringing out there, you know. And it's so fun. And the people that come are just so stoked. And again, it's just so awesome to be able to share, because that's a lot of the thing that has fueled us to want to offer these camps and retreats and what got me to offer my online course with The Inertia. But there's a lot of people that go do a surf camp or do a surf retreat in a way that they're not learning from people who have been surfing a long time like all of us. And they think, you know, they don't really understand the etiquette. And maybe they're putting themselves or somebody else in harm's way because they don't really understand the cadence of a lineup. They don't really have that etiquette background. Nobody's told them. It was just like, “Every wave’s your wave.” When really, as you and I know, surfing isn't about riding waves as much as it is about having a rapport with the ocean and connecting with community and all the other elements that go into what surfing is. And so I think that that's really what we're trying to share and teach. And hopefully by doing it this way, we're going to make the lineups a lot better for everybody because they're learning good ethics, they're learning good awareness, they're learning good lineup etiquette in the water, and they're able to bring that back to their communities as well.

Michael Frampton
You know, that's a good point. There's so many people jumping into surfing nowadays, and it's so accessible. You know, the wetsuits and surfboards are so good. And there are so many companies making them at such an affordable price. It's so accessible to everyone now. And it's—gosh, a surfboard, I mean, as you know, a surfboard is a very dangerous thing. And you wouldn't just go and give someone a car without putting them through a course and making sure they had their license. Yeah, and I think it breeds a lot of new surfers' frustration too.

Kassia Meador
Love that. Yeah, I love that kind of analogy. And it's so very true. So very true.

Michael Frampton
Their perception of surfing is like, “I just buy a soft top and a cheap wetsuit and I go surfing,” and... well, it’s not quite that simple. And then they wonder why, you know, three months later they still can't ride unbroken waves and why people are yelling at them. So... you know, things like this, I’m glad that they're growing and people are doing it because it will—you’re right—it will. Every time a bunch of people in a community take your course, then they bring that vibe to the whole lineup where they surf. And hopefully when their friend decides to, “Hey, can you show me how to surf?” they pass that on.
So that's awesome.

Kassia Meador
That's cool. And it's fun too. You know, it's like getting to share what we know after all this time. I'm like, gosh, I wish somebody told me half the stuff that we're sharing with other people. It would have just like, you know, expedited my learning curve in an exceptional way. And so it's really cool to be able to share that with—I mean, I guess I started surfing in 1997 or 1998.

Michael Frampton
What was your learning curve like? When did you start surfing?

Kassia Meador
I did junior lifeguards. I learned the ocean. My parents were like, “Okay, learn the ocean.” And my dad was a surfer. So he's like, “I'm not going to teach you. I want you to learn about the ocean, learn about the currents, learn the language, and then you can come surfing with me.” So yeah, that was the way.
And then I just went surfing with my dad and his friends and I was just out in the water. And then I started going to Malibu and surfing with all those people and actually watching.
That said, I did have good access. I learned a lot from watching, though I had great people to watch. I had guys like Joel Tudor and Josh Farberow and people like Brittany Leonard and Matt Howard and, you know, Dane Peterson and some of the best surfers—Ashley Lloyd—that I got to watch and witness. And really helped to inform my surfing. But I was watching some of the best loggers around doing what they do.
So it was Jimmy Gamboa, you know, that whole crew. That whole generation of surfers. So for me, watching was a big part of it. And then adapting what I was witnessing to my own kind of style. And obviously not wanting to look like a kook, because I just got made fun of if I did. And that was just how it was when we were kids and everybody was just heckling each other. It was a simpler...

Michael Frampton
Time. So what beach did it start? When was your first surfing experience? What beach?

Kassia Meador
I mean, Leo Carrillo—the back beach, North Beach. Leo Carrillo is where I first was doing junior lifeguards. I think I caught my first green wave at a place called La Conchita, which is really not a surfing spot at all actually. It’s just like a beach break on the inside of Rincon. But I grew up in the valley. I was a valley kid, so I never lived by the beach.
So I was never, I guess, like local to anywhere. I just kind of like—we just had to drive everywhere. But one of the closest beaches to me—I lived on the other side of the canyon—was like Leo Carrillo, Malibu. And then the other way was like C Street, Ventura, Rincon, that kind of vibe, you know.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I see you’ve done quite a bit of camping at Leo Carrillo as well.

Kassia Meador
I camped at Leo Carrillo an entire summer, the first summer I learned how to surf. So we did junior lifeguards all day. Julie Cox, who owns a couple cool surf stores now called Traveler Surf Club and Outpost, she was my junior lifeguard instructor and she worked at the camp store.
So she had like a whole campsite the entire summer. And so she was older than me. So she had a car, which meant I had a ride to the beach. And, you know, her, myself, and a bunch of our friends—we just spent an entire summer literally camping and surfing and running and swimming and like learning the ocean.

Michael Frampton
Wow. So it’s kind of come full circle.

Kassia Meador
Totally. It’s absolutely come full circle. And I think that’s the thing, is like connecting with nature.
You know, that’s the thing about surfing—like not having any walls around us, like being outside all the time. And that’s something that’s really special, I think, about California and really what we like to bring to people with Salty Sensations specifically, is having that access to be fully immersed in nature for an extended amount of time.

Michael Frampton
Well, do you remember earlier on in your surfing journey—what was the best surfing advice you had?

Kassia Meador
Gosh, I mean, when I was younger, Joel Tudor probably gave me some really good advice, which was like interesting advice. And he probably wouldn’t remember it, but he was just like, “You know, don’t get Point Break Syndrome.”
Like, you surf Malibu all the time—don’t just only surf a perfect wave. Because it’s not going to teach you that much about surfing, really, because you’re just surfing—it's like you kind of set up a nose ride, set up a nose ride. You’re not turning, you’re not being more dynamic, you’re not witnessing a lot of variables coming in.
And, you know, like surfing beach breaks and stuff like that—you’re seeing all these different variables and you have to adapt and you have to choose the right one.
And at a place like Malibu—that’s literally like nature’s machine of perfection—and Leo Carrillo and a lot of the waves I was surfing, Rincon—they’re so perfect that you become lazy.
And so I remember when he first said that to me, I was like, “What? Point Break Syndrome? I’m like, what are you talking about? This is a perfect wave.”
And then I would spend some time going and trying to surf Sano and trying to surf other places. And even my first time to Costa Rica I realized—even though I’m goofy foot—I never really went left.
And that was awkward to me. And you’d think on my forehand I would be more vibing, but really, just because I never really did it surfing in, you know, where I grew up. It was just weird.
So I think that helped me the most.
And I started riding for Donald Takayama, and when I was 20 years old I moved down to Oceanside and started surfing a lot of beach breaks. And I think that really helped my surfing in general. And then just traveling and surfing as many waves as possible.
And that’s something that we bring into our retreats.
You know, it’s like—it’s pretty easy to surf a perfect wave.
Yeah, it is.
Easy to surf a difficult wave that’s variable? Not as much, you know.
I think it depends.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, do you still prefer your backhand?

Kassia Meador
Like, truly? I mean, I love perfect waves. I mean, who isn’t a sucker for a perfect wave?
You know, absolutely.
But because I have proximity to so many rights, you know, more so in my backyard or where I live, I really love going left just because it still feels different to me. It still feels a little more far-reached and far.
And I think on like a shortboard and a small board, I prefer going left.
And on a longboard, I—you know, if it’s a perfect longboard wave, like I love going right.
I think I surf better on a longboard, especially nose riding going right.
And I have some work to do, definitely, going left.

Michael Frampton
Interesting. So, what’s the worst surfing advice you ever had?

Kassia Meador
Ash, I don’t know. You know, it’s like—I think like surfing and the ocean specifically just teaches you stuff.
You know, I guess one of the worst surfing advices I had was like an old boyfriend of mine that told me I should go to college and not just follow my dream of surfing.
That was probably the worst surfing advice ever. I remember being like, “College? Like what?”
And he’s like, “It’s a pipe dream,” you know, blah.
I’m like, “I don’t even know what my dream is, but I know my nightmare would be to go to college.”
Like, you know, just the bill alone—especially in the U.S.—it’s different, I think, maybe over in New Zealand and other places. But like, I don’t want to go to college.
You know? And I went to Australia, and I bought a car, and I kind of lived in it for a while after graduating high school and just cruised up and down the coast. And really, my surfing journey took off.
Thankfully, I did not listen to him.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I think... thank you.
Yeah. What’s the biggest mistake that you see that newbies to surfing make?

Kassia Meador
You know, I think some of the biggest mistakes that I’ve seen—just in life—some of our retreat guests, I think more so, is getting too comfortable with what they know and not wanting to push themselves.
It’s like people in general getting too comfortable.
Like maybe that’s a thing for humanity.
You know, one of the worst mistakes we can do is get comfortable.
Like, how awesome it is when we meet our growing edges and see ourselves moving through it, you know?
So I think as beginning surfers, you know, they get kind of comfortable maybe in one place, surfing one wave or—you know, and there’s something helpful with that because it helps you get to a comfort level that makes it enjoyable.
That said, if you’re not surpassing that comfort level, you’re never going to—you plateau.
And then often people come to us and they’ve plateaued, but they’re comfortable where they are. And then they’re like, “This is uncomfortable because it’s new and different.” And like, “Maybe I like perfect waves,” or “I like this.”
And that’s always something for us.
Because it’s like, people will be like, “I feel like I’m going backwards.”
And it’s like, no—you’re just learning new things.
Like, it’s supposed to be uncomfortable.
And then we always get a message—like, they go home and they ride their comfortable wave on whatever. And they’re like—that’s when they really see the progress that they’ve made. You know, when they might come back a year later and really go.
So maybe a human condition thing—to like, you know, if we’re ever too comfortable, like, what are we missing?
Where’s the growing potential that we’re missing?
You know, so yeah, I think that’s something.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I guess if you get to it as a surfer—if you get to a certain level where you are comfortable and you don't push yourself beyond that—I'm wondering what the downsides are to that. What did you do?

Kassia Meador
Yeah, plateauing really. Just not getting any better, which is cool. You can go have fun, but then like, does it get boring after a...

Michael Frampton
Point? Well, that’s what I think it would be. It was sort of—and you may not be aware of it—but I think that’s when some cynicism comes. And frustration might sort of leak into your surfing.

Kassia Meador
One hundred percent.
You know, if you’re only going and surfing the same wave all the time—it would, absolutely.
I mean, when I chose to move down to Oceanside in my early 20s, people were like, “Why are you moving down south? Like, you live by a perfect wave.”
And I'm like, gosh, if I just stayed in Malibu and never left—I mean, I never lived in Malibu. I always grew up in the Valley. So I never actually lived in Malibu.
But if that was like the wave that I was only surfing and all those rights, like I might’ve gotten bored and complacent.
Like, complacency just seems like a trap.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I think that. I think you see that a lot.
You see someone riding the same board, surfing the same wave, waiting for the set waves, and they're just a bit grumpy with it all.
And they're the people that are most likely to snap and complain about how surfing used to be.
But you see people out there who are always trying different—it might even just be—just try a different surfboard.
You know, you don’t have to go and try and attempt any sort of new moves or anything.
It’s just sort of, I think you need challenges in some ways. Like, surfing somewhere else or surfing a different type of board doesn’t have to be associated to your performance per se.

Kassia Meador
Totally. I can totally see that happening for people. And that’s such a bummer, right?
Like, it’s kind of like—gosh, I mean, the world is so beautiful and life is so beautiful that if people are just bummed out in the water, I really feel like—without getting too kind of far out and esoteric—but like, I really feel that water is such a conductor. It’s a conduit.
And so whatever’s happening—and you know, when those grumpy people are out there—and it’s a bummer because they’re grumpy and they’re kind of like stinking up the lineup with their grumpy vibes, you know?
And then when somebody is like having a good one and everybody’s like hooting for each other, it’s like the best lineup to be in. Everybody surfing the best, feeling the best. And that’s contagious.
So like, what are we bringing to our lineups? And how is that affecting everybody else out there? Because it really does.
And I’m not saying it’s about being happy all the time, because a lot of people have a lot of struggles—especially right now with everything going on in the world.
That being said, if the ocean is that place that you go to do your cleansing work and you go to do the things that bring you joy so that you can kind of let go of some of the stresses of life, then if you’re met with joy and happiness and fun, you’re going to be able to bring that back to life on land—which is, you know, it’s like crossing T’s and dotting I’s and all the other things that we have to deal with, like paying taxes and all that stuff that’s not always that fun.
So it’s like—it really should be that place, you know? And I really hope that it is for people.
And anybody listening to this, I hope that—you know, it’s like—you can think about that.
Like, what are you bringing into the water?
If you’re grumpy out in the water, how are you on land? And how is that affecting other people?
And who knows what kind of day somebody’s been having?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, but that’s—I think, I mean, maybe that is the challenge for those sorts of people: to leave that stuff in the car park and immerse yourself in surfing and remember what surfing is.
And that might be someone’s challenge.
And that might be how they progress their surfing—is just to have a better relationship with surfing. Simple as that.

Kassia Meador
I love that. I love that as a challenge.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. How would you describe your current relationship to surfing?

Kassia Meador
I love surfing so much. I mean, I'm more excited about surfing than I think I ever have been, except for when I was first getting it. I'm just excited right now about surfing, and I froth out just as much as I was when I was a little kid. And it’s kind of come full circle in that way. I think everything has different cycles of evolution. And I'm definitely on an upturn, like a remembering cycle again, right now.
You know, having the access to surfing all over the world since I was younger was amazing. And then surfing professionally—at some point there was a point where I got a little disenchanted with the surf industry and the whole surf world, and just all this other stuff that didn't feel like it was aligned with the purity of why I got into it in the first place.
So I think for the most part, leaving my big sponsors, leaving the surfing world, starting my own business—kind of dealing with all that with my wetsuits and everything—was a lot of hard work. And then I had a bunch of injuries. So I spent probably a good seven years not in the water much.
Like, multiple concussions from surfing accidents—people, you know, dropping in and kicking their boards at me or my own board—or a couple car accidents, dislocated shoulders, injuries in different ways that literally really kept me out of the water, I would say for the most part of seven years.
And it was really in 2019 into 2020 that I started feeling better again. I did a lot of work. I went back to school, and I learned craniosacral and polarity therapy because it helped me the most with my concussions. I was really focused on my business. I wasn't surfing a lot. And I was like, wow, my joy is missing.
And then I started feeling good enough—towards the end of 2019 and early into 2020—and I really started surfing a lot more. And that's when I really started teaching more surfing. And I did the online course. And then I was starting to feel myself again, and then teaching helped me fall in love again with different aspects of surfing.
And then I kind of had this break from surfing that really helped me to feel grateful for my body, grateful for feeling strong again, grateful for all these things.
So then it reignited this new love with surfing in a different way. And that's where I am currently. And I'm just so frothy. I'm so pumped.
My friend Leah and her boyfriend Alex call me “Queen Froth” because I'm so stoked to get in the water. I'm waking up at five in the morning, driving down to Huntington Beach to go surf because it's going to be good and offshore. And I'll get two hours in. I'll be back at work by like 9:10 in the morning, and I'm pumped.
So it's really cool to be, you know, 41 and having surfed since I was 14, 15 years old, and I'm falling in love with it again. And I'm in this new phase of it that I'm just so pumped.

Michael Frampton
Cool. What did you say? Pol... olatherapy?

Kassia Meador
Polarity. It's like an energy medicine. It kind of works with Reiki or craniosacral osteopathy. Depending on where you live, you may have a different kind of relation to it.
So it's kind of like that work. And it really helped me with a lot of my head trauma that I experienced through surfing.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, and I've had concussions before—a horrible experience, yeah.

Kassia Meador
Yeah, and they add up. So I had so many consecutively in a row for so many years, and violent car accidents, and just crazy stuff that happened.
But it brought me to different ways of taking care of myself. So that opened up a whole new world. And, gosh, I didn't really know where it was going to go. I was like, maybe my best times of surfing are in the past. And I'm actually just having my best times of surfing I've ever had now, which is so cool.

Michael Frampton
So do you think you've made a full recovery since your most recent concussion?

Kassia Meador
Yeah, for sure. Full recovery—and better than I ever was. I did neurofeedback. I've done a lot of other stuff for my brain—hyperbaric chamber work.
But it took me a long road to find all that stuff, because it’s not just like... If you go to a neurologist, they’re like, “Have some pills and go to speech therapy. You have a stutter.”
I mean, I had a stutter. I couldn’t be outside. Still, at night, driving can affect me a little bit. That’s not super easy all the time. But only if I’m really tired.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, no—the mainstream medical system, they don’t understand concussion that well. You kind of got to—like you said—you got to step out.
I did neurofeedback and changed my diet, and I did some vestibular and ocular rehab—vision and balance rehab. And that’s what sort of helped me with my concussions.
Yeah. So—and chiropractic and stuff too.

Kassia Meador
Totally. And that’s so cool that you searched that out and then you feel those results, right?
Like, neurofeedback is amazing. And just the best. All of that is so fantastic—having access to it. But you do really have to find it. And it definitely costs time, energy, and money.

Michael Frampton
It does. But if you want to get back in the water, then—well, you know, concussion affects every part of your life.
So you kind of—totally—do or die sometimes.

Kassia Meador
That's it. And it’s really—it's like, what are we investing in?
Our health and well-being is the most that we can and have the opportunity and really should be investing in.
So that’s awesome that you’re feeling better. So you’re back 100% yourself then?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, my concussion wasn’t too bad. I was sort of out for a week and was nauseous for a while and, you know, sensitivity to bright light and stuff, and low mood.
And, you know, I’ve of course read a lot—really bad in the surfing world. You know, the big wave surfers—they deal with heavy concussions.
Yeah. And I know... That’s gnarly.
Yeah. But yeah, no, it’s all good now. I still have to keep up. I feel I have to keep up with some of the vision vestibular training though.
Like if I don’t do it, I tend to feel my balance and vision sort of fades. So it’s something I’m always sort of doing—making sure my eyes are working together well and getting enough sleep as well is huge. Just having a good...
Yeah, we’re not in our 20s anymore, so things... That’s it. Mishaps affect you so much more. And a late night wipes you out for a few days nowadays, whereas you could just charge through it when you’re...

Kassia Meador
Well, totally. Yeah. Sleep is huge and paramount. And low inflammatory diets too—like that’s helped me a lot. I don’t know, because you said you changed your diet as well.
That was one of the biggest things where I noticed the first effect—just changing that.
And, you know, I hope whoever’s listening to this can pass it on if they know somebody who’s struggling.
Because it’s a hard thing. If somebody breaks their arm, you can see it. You’re like, “That person has a broken arm.”
But with head trauma, you don’t really know what’s happening in there for somebody else.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, it’s like—I think just the whole world itself. And 20 years ago, when we were in our 20s, the world was sort of less toxic in a way.
So even though... 40 years ago, when we were little and growing up, the world was far less toxic.
So we could have sort of developed and adapted to that sort of environment.
And now we find ourselves a bit older, and we’re in a far more toxic environment—just the quality of the air alone.
Whereas if you were born only 15–20 years ago, you kind of grew up in a more toxic environment, and that’s all you know, and your body adapted to that as well.
I think it’s tenfold for us older folk. We’ve got to double down on that stuff a lot.

Kassia Meador
Totally. And too, having to do our own research. But it seems that more and more people have more access to things. And there’s more ways to find out about what’s happening out there and what tools are available for all of us to work with.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, if anyone out there is suffering with concussion or knows anyone, look into those alternative therapies—especially vestibular and ocular.
So vision and balance rehab—those are big, because those are the first things to go, and they affect your mood a lot as well.
That sort of stuff, and then sleep and low inflammatory diets.
And like you said, you can just go online and learn so much about it nowadays.

Kassia Meador
Totally. It’s cool that you did neurofeedback too. I felt like that, with hyperbaric chamber stuff, helped me like crazy.
It was so amazing witnessing the change in how I was sleeping as well.
Because that’s the thing—if you don’t have deep Delta brainwave states, which usually you don’t when you’re in fight-or-flight and stress patterns...
So just being able to get back into deep Delta states alone gave my brain time to recover.
So I’m sure you had similar things happen. It’s wild because one thing affects another, and then the whole system is kind of just barely hanging on.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And I know in my research before this, I noticed you’re into sound baths.

Kassia Meador
Totally. Yeah. I love sound and vibrational medicine.
I think that was probably the first tool that I was having access to that was helping me in a lot of ways that I didn’t even really understand.
But it would put me into Theta, which is a relaxed and healing state.
So I didn’t really know what was happening with it.
That said, obviously, knowing a lot more about it now and working with it for a time, there was obviously a reason I was drawn to it—because I was feeling supported receiving and giving Sangha.
So I love that work. I think it’s so fantastic.
Have you received one?

Michael Frampton
Yes.
Yeah. Gosh, I remember I was living in New York and I went to somewhere in Queens. We had this old abandoned warehouse. There were 50 of us, did this ayahuasca ceremony. And sort of about three in the morning, when everyone starts to come out of that plant medicine journey, someone starts playing this giant crystal bowl. And it just felt like the whole room was wavering and warping with this crystal bowl. And I just felt these waves go through me.
And that was my first experience of a sound bath. And actually, someone in Malibu—whose name I can't remember—he had a whole room full of crystal bowls, and that was an incredible experience.
And I remember when COVID hit—it was actually not long after, I was probably still healing from my concussion—I bought a really big PA system. And I had to sit in front of a really loud speaker with my bass guitar and just find the frequency that felt right.
It wasn't necessarily the sound of the music; it was the feeling. Because when you have a big sound system or a big bass amp or guitar amp, you really get to feel the music.
And then you search around on the guitar or the bass. And sometimes, I think unconsciously we're searching for the right frequency.
Of course, we might articulate it as, “I really like that note” or “that melody,” but really I think it's often that feeling that the body craves—of the right frequency going through us.
And I think that's part of the reason why people brave live events. Like, there's something that—you can sit down with a pair of headphones and enjoy a certain type of music—but when you go to a live concert and stand up front, you can feel the music.
And that's just a completely different experience. And you can stay up till two in the morning and have four hours of sleep and wake up feeling fine because you've just been bathed in the right frequencies for two hours before that.
So, you know, I'm a big—I'm a huge believer in sound therapy and all that sort of stuff. And gosh, isn't this what a wave is anyway?
Isn't it some sort of communication from a storm miles away?

Kassia Meador
That's it. You know, we're all riding different sound waves, right?
And I think that's why, as surfers too, so many surfers I know are so drawn to music in different ways—whether it's playing guitar or drums or ambient kind of music.
Whatever it is, that vibration just feels so much like home. So much like surfing—really surfing sound waves, surfing ocean waves. It's all the same kind of wave energy.

Michael Frampton
Really? Yeah. Cool.
And there's a guy on Instagram I follow—Robert Edward Grant. I don’t know if you’ve come across him yet, but he spent a lot of time in ancient Egypt.
And they say that the pyramids and a lot of the other structures are giant sound healing devices. I love it.

Kassia Meador
Yeah, I love it. Robert—what’s his name? I’m going to check him out.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, Robert Edward Grant. Interesting fellow.
Yeah, because the Nile actually used to run through that part of ancient Egypt.
So a lot of the structures actually used to have water running down the sides, and that would vibrate and create a sound bath.
And he had the opportunity to go into the main pyramid—which I forget its name now—into the King’s Chamber of the main pyramid and lie on top of the table.
And he just started chanting. And he said once he got the right frequency, he felt the whole room of the King’s Chamber vibrating together and making his whole body vibrate.
And he had an out-of-body experience. And so it’s all about sound and frequency.

Kassia Meador
It really is.
I literally was having this exact conversation with a good friend of mine last night—who’s a musician—who just got back from Egypt and had the exact same experience.
Toning into the rocks, toning into the statues, toning into it all, and receiving these beautiful downloads of information and actually witnessing everything kind of morphing and changing in the space based on the feedback of sound.

Michael Frampton
And it actually makes a lot of sense neurologically.
Because if you think of all the modalities for body healing—you’ve got chiropractic or massage therapy, Reiki, acupuncture—all those bodywork therapies.
All they’re actually doing, from a neurological and technical perspective, is giving your brain more awareness of your body.
And then once your brain is aware of your entire body or a certain part of your body that’s been injured, it then has the ability to heal.
It’s when we have a lack of awareness of a certain part of our body that the brain doesn’t go and heal it—because it’s not aware of where it is.
So things like acupuncture and chiropractor and massage and Reiki—they all just bring more awareness to that part of the body.
And the same is true with sound frequency—especially if you mess around with different sounds—you feel the sounds vibrate in different parts of your body.
And that’s essentially just showing your brain and making your body more alive.
So it’s kind of all about awareness. Because the body and the brain have the ability to heal, but only if we’re aware of what’s going on.
So yeah, all those bodywork and sound therapy modalities are about creating more awareness.
And, of course, injuries and trauma—they take the awareness away.

Kassia Meador
Yeah, like shutting down or disassociating from our body or having different systems not neurologically firing together and wiring together in that way.
And especially if people have spinal injuries—the whole ANS system shuts down often if there’s spinal injury.
So the motor neurons can’t fire and a lot of other things aren’t lining up.
So awareness is key. And keeping that awareness and those channels open and fluid are so essential to our health and well-being on multiple layers and levels for sure.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, and not all modalities work for everyone too. Because you hear some people say, “Chiropractic? It’s just a bunch of quacks.”
Well, no—it just doesn’t work for you. Like, go and find your—maybe acupuncture works for you or whatever.

Kassia Meador
Totally. It’s so important.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I’ve tried everything. And for me, it was only some things that worked.
So I stick with those.

Kassia Meador
That’s exactly it. I mean, that’s how I got into osteopathy or craniosacral medicine, as well as acupuncture—I really love.
And all that kind of work was really something that helped me.
So it’s so important to honor what works for you, because all of our systems are so varied and different.
Just like we all like different boards and different fins and different waves and different vibes, you know?
It’s like we all like different music a little bit. It’s like—we’ve got to see what resonates with our system and our body, and then lean into that.

Michael Frampton
What’s your favorite surfboard?
If you could have one surfboard for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Kassia Meador
Jeez, that’s a really hard one. It’s a really hard one just because I like riding big boards and small boards.
So it’s like...
I mean, if I was—it’s hard to choose one board. Just because I feel like if it was a smaller board and it was small, I’d be lacking. And if it was a big board and it was big, I’d be lacking.
I’m like, gosh—it’s so hard.
So, you know, I have this really beautiful 9’5”, kind of piggy shape that my friend Dane shaped me. And it’s my favorite longboard.
It works so good. It’s so smooth off the tail. It nose rides so good. It just is real hippie and has a lot of belly, and it’s just really nice and I love it so much.
And that would be my longboard.
And then, kind of small board-wise—really, my friend Alex Lopez—he’s been shaping these really fun twin pins, and they’re just so nice.
I have like a 6’8” right now that I love. And I think that would be my kind of small board because it can really hold in more solid surf.
And then if it was small, I’d be on my longboard anyway.
But even then, it’s super fun in smaller, punchy waves as well.
That said, it could hold when it’s quite a bit bigger.
So those would be my two—take-them-everywhere-with-you boards.

Michael Frampton
Yep. Cool.
And where would you—if you could just have one place to surf, where would that be?

Kassia Meador
Gosh. You know, I mean, honestly—out in Indonesia, in the Mentawais.
That whole area is so incredible.
Because there’s lefts, there’s rights, there’s kind of mushier log waves, there’s faster, freight-training style waves.
It’s perfection in every direction.
And that would be it.
If I could just float around there and live there for the rest of my life—why not?
Gosh, it’s beautiful.

Michael Frampton
Plans to take a group there?

Kassia Meador
Yes, definitely.
I took a small group there last year in the shoulder season, and I’m taking another group there this year during the shoulder season.
We have two little back-to-backs.
I have a friend over there with an awesome resort that we work with.
It’s super small, and they’re such lovely people. I’m super grateful. I love it over there.
And shoulder season’s great. You know, it’s not when people are chasing the big stuff.
It’s just fun, perfect waves, and everybody has a really good time.
And there are so many different waves and variety that everybody can find their flow.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Do you have your own sound bowl at home or do you go somewhere and experience that?

Kassia Meador
Yeah, I have a lot of sound bowls. I have a giant gong—you can see it behind me.
Yeah, I work a lot with sound. So I carry them often because I bring my sound equipment with me everywhere I go when I do retreats and stuff.
So I have a bunch of bowls. I work a lot with tuning forks, flutes, drums, rattles.
Mostly gongs like that.
When I can and I’m at home—obviously they’re quite large, so I can’t really take them that many places.
That said, I have kind of my travel kit and my home kit, and I do a lot of sound work both locally as well as internationally.

Michael Frampton
Cool. Awesome. I see you've gone—you've actually started. Are you specifically treating people, or is it for the retreats or...?

Kassia Meador
Like, I was doing one-on-one sessions before I started doing the retreats. So it's been about, like—gosh—like 11 going on 12 years since I've been working with sound and vibrational medicine.
And so I started with a couple of different teachers and, you know, learned on my own for a long time. And we had a whole performance art group back in the day that we would travel, and we even made records with art galleries and stuff.
And at the time, we didn't really—we didn’t call them sound baths—we called them like "abductions," to be honest.
And we just felt like everybody was getting abducted by this sound, really, and taken to a different place.
And we didn't really understand it.
So we started kind of playing with it more and just adapting.
And then we all started noticing the healing effects it was having on us individually, and the people around us that we were bringing it to, you know.
So me and one of the other guys kind of got more interested—there were seven of us at the time—we all got more interested in the healing elements of sound.
So we started jamming together, and both of us kind of studied more with different sound practitioners since.
And, yeah, we’ve kind of been on our journey.
So it's fun, and it's something that I think is a really important element to what we bring in the retreats.
And it's a way to support people's nervous systems and whole body.
It’s like you're having that real physical experience in the water that can be emotional and energetic.
And then, when we get back to land, having these grounding sound journeys is really helpful for people to be able to process and land what we're doing in the water, as well as their own kind of stuff that's coming up for their life.
So it's super fun.

Michael Frampton
It makes me wonder—okay, so a sound bowl. Let's take a sound bowl, for example.
You can see it, you can hear it, and you can feel it. Do you get the same experience in the ocean?
Like, can you hear or feel waves as well as see them?

Kassia Meador
I don't feel that I can hear them. If I really check into hearing them, like—I'm like, "Can I hear waves?" I can, certain times.
Like, if a wave gets really hollow or that sound inside a tube—that's a sonic experience.
You know, definitely, it's an auditory experience.
That said, I can feel the waves coming.
And I can definitely feel—like, I guess I would have a kinesthetic awareness for the ocean waves.
Not only just riding them, but feeling them or feeling when it's going to be good, feeling when a set's coming—all those kind of things.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, because when you're out surfing and you're surfing—you're just sitting there, everyone's waiting for a set, and then all of a sudden someone moves.
“Why are they paddling over there? I can't see anything on the horizon.”
And then, 20 seconds later, you see something pop, and then everyone else moves.
But that guy's already in position.
I was like, “What did he see?”
Well, maybe he—she—felt it.

Kassia Meador
Felt it. Totally.
And you just know.
You know those people that have been out there forever—they know. They can smell it.
Somebody the other day in the water was like, “You know,” he's like, “I can smell the sets coming.”
And I was like, “You can smell it? That's cool.”
And he's like, “Yeah, my wife says that I can only smell sets.”
Like, if she's like, “What?”—puts on her new perfume—I can't smell that, but I can smell a set.
And sure enough, we paddled out and there was a set.
And he's like, “Go.”
I'm like, “All right.” That was fun.

Michael Frampton
That's funny.

Kassia Meador
Yeah, that's cool though, thinking about hearing it.
I mean, depending on how you feel things—different people have different ways of experiencing.

Michael Frampton
For sure.
I want to ask you one more question and then we'll—it's coming up to the hour now.
If there was one piece of advice that you could give to beginners—beginner surfers—what would that be?

Kassia Meador
Gosh, have fun and don't be so hard on yourself.
Really.
You know, it's like I can witness people getting so frustrated with themselves and so frustrated in the water.
It's like—just enjoy the ride and enjoy the whole process, right?
It's so important to enjoy every piece of it.
It's not just about getting better. It's about the experience of it all.
And, you know, so it's bigger than just one piece of advice.
But I feel that the ocean is like a mirror.
So it reflects for us whatever's coming up, right?
So if somebody has issues with control, right—that’s going to come up for them.
You're not in control in the ocean.
Maybe that's why you're called to it.
So if you can really feel into—how is this a reflection of my life and some of the things that I have an opportunity to work on—how can I see them work both ways?
And how can I mirror on land what is being mirrored for me in the water and vice versa?
And move through it.

Michael Frampton
How do you balance that with—'cause I'm sure there was a part of your life where you sort of...
I mean, to get better, you kind of—you have to, on some level—take it seriously, right? To improve an aspect of your technique or...

Kassia Meador
Totally.
I mean, we're constantly getting better, right?
Like, we've been surfing for so long—it's like nobody has ever arrived.
You know, whether it's your first time in the water or you're Kelly Slater—you're falling.
Everybody. The ocean's always in charge, you know?
So I think just allowing yourself to be humbled time and time again by this giant force of nature—literally, water—and pushing yourself into it, and not getting frustrated at yourself.
And yeah, you might have moments and days, and just going back to remembering—it’s about the fun.
And sometimes it's fun to just let go completely and be totally shaken around and feel alive.
That said, you know, the next time is not going to be like that.
So I feel like those points of tension in our surfing or in our day-to-day life are the biggest opportunities to learn.
So if we can not be stuck, if we can not waste energy on being hard on ourselves, if we can actually use it as fuel to move through it—the breakdown to breakthrough—then we can actually progress a lot faster by having that humility and kind of leaning into it rather than being like, “No.”

Michael Frampton
Cool.
Well, Kassia, thank you so much for your time.
The Surf Mastery Podcast is all about inspiration and education, and I think you embody both of those things.
Obviously, listeners can Google you and watch a bunch of footage of you surfing on YouTube.
And for inspiration and education, you've got your course on The Inertia, which I'll put links to in the show notes.
And of course, you've got the wetsuits at kassiasurf.com. Is that correct?

Kassia Meador
Yeah, kassiasurf.com, exactly.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, sorry Kassia, I didn’t get the pronunciation right.
Salty Sensations.

Kassia Meador
Yeah, Salty Sensations is something that my friend Leah, myself, Mikayla, and now Andy are all working on.
And that’s a lot of fun.
That said, I always post stuff on my own personal website for that whenever we have those retreats happening.
So people can find that info anywhere.
And maybe I can make a cool little discount code for you if anybody wants to use the bundle for The Inertia course, or if anybody wants to try out any of our wetsuits.
I’ll create something super sweet and special for your listeners.
So I don’t know if that’s...

Michael Frampton
Helpful. Definitely.
Let me know what that is and I’ll put it in the post-production, etc.
But I haven’t missed anything—are those your main three avenues?

Kassia Meador
Yeah.
Check us out either on Instagram, online, or—you know—come check us out in person.
It's always more fun to get together.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Awesome.
Yeah, I’ll put links to all that stuff in the show notes.
Again, thank you so much for your time.

Kassia Meador
Awesome. You’re epic, Michael. Thanks so much for having me, and have a beautiful day.

Michael Frampton
Get 25% off at kassiasurf.com—use the code SURFMASTERYLOVE.
And for a 10% discount off Kassia’s surfing e-course, use the code WELCOME10.
Those discount codes are listed in the show notes along with the relevant website.
Thank you for tuning in, and until next time—keep surfing.

93 Kassia Meador

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

In just over a year Andrew was surfing Pipeline. Andrew discusses his transition from skateboarding to surfing, sharing insights from trips to El Salvador and Hawaii. They delve into the dangers of surfing, emphasizing the importance of taking it slow and respecting the waves.

The conversation covers personal well-being, worst surfing advice, and the unique dynamics of Andrew's Brooklyn skate park. The hosts also explore the pros and cons of using a carver skateboard and share humorous anecdotes about challenging surf conditions.

The podcast concludes with reflections on the changing skate industry and the need for affordable skate parks. Throughout, the hosts infuse the discussion with camaraderie, providing an entertaining blend of nostalgia, insight, and humor.

https://www.instagram.com/andrewhgelles/?hl=en

https://substanceskatepark.com

https://www.rosdiner.com

This episode of "The Surf Mastery Podcast," hosts Rob Case. Rob and Michael reconnect after a hiatus and delve into their personal struggles, the well-being of their children, and their profound love for surfing. They explore a range of surfing-related topics, including the importance of mastering techniques like the pop-up and strategic wave-catching. They discuss surf trip challenges, their vision for professional surfing, their frustrations with the World Surf League (WSL), and the significance of surf culture and etiquette. The conversation also touches on family-friendly surf trips, wave pools, and diverse surfboard choices, concluding with their shared enthusiasm for surfing and aspirations to collaborate on surfing education.

The episode offers a deep dive into the world of surfing, teaching, and the broader surf culture, covering everything from fundamental skills to the future of professional surfing and the importance of the surfing community.

Episode 12 with Rob:

Spotify

Apple

Rob's Website:

https://www.surfingpaddling.com/

https://surfmastery.com/

ManTalks founder Connor Beaton - podcaster, author, coach, father and husband. Connor brings a relational and common sense approach to the "manosphere". His podcast has been paramount in my journey of self-discovery and relationship education. We discuss masculinity, icons, men’s issues & more.

Connor's website:

https://mantalks.com/