Podcast - SURF MASTERY

Are you still struggling to catch waves—even after months of trying? What if the problem isn’t you, but the technique you were taught?

In this episode, surf coach Michael Frampton breaks down the three unconventional, yet game-changing, tips that helped a frustrated beginner surfer finally start catching waves—without paddling, without stress, and without shame. If you’ve ever felt like giving up, this one’s for you.

• Learn why “matching” waves beats “catching” them—and how this mindset shift changes everything.

• Discover how to spot the right kind of whitewater for maximum success.

• Get a simple, no-paddle drill that can skyrocket your progress in just one session.

Press play now to hear the exact tips that helped Jason—and dozens of other surfers—go from stuck to stoked in weeks, not years.

Join the Wave Catching Academy: https://learn.surfmastery.com/wave-catching-academy-1

You Tube Vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpEKf1cbT4Q 

Key Points

• Introduction of the podcast and its purpose to help surfers catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and gain confidence in the water.

• Announcement of a long-form interview with Professor of Philosophy Aaron James about surfing philosophy, encouraging listeners to subscribe and stay tuned.

• Story of Jason, a 42-year-old beginner surfer who struggled to catch waves despite surfing almost daily for three months, highlighting the importance of proper technique and guidance.

• Tip number one: Match waves, don't catch waves, emphasizing a change in perspective and the importance of the language used to shape beliefs and actions.

• Tip number two: Focus on wave selection by choosing waves with smooth flat water in front, as not all broken white water waves are equal.

• Tip number three: Stop headling; beginners should use an 8 or 9-foot soft top, position the board correctly, and jump onto the board as the white water hits the tail to match the wave's speed.

• Summary of the three tips: Match waves, choose the right white water, and stop headling, with a reminder to check the show notes for a visual demonstration.

• Promotion of the Wave Catching Academy as a solution for those frustrated with not catching waves, with a call to action to join before registrations close at the end of the week. 

Outline

Introduction to the Surf Mastery Podcast

• The Surf Mastery Podcast aims to help passionate surfers catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and gain wisdom and confidence in the water.

• The podcast caters to both beginner surfers struggling to catch waves and longtime listeners.

• An upcoming long-form interview with Professor of Philosophy Aaron James on surfing philosophy is announced.

Story of Jason and the Importance of Correct Technique

• Jason, a 42-year-old beginner surfer, had been surfing almost daily for three months but felt like giving up due to lack of progress.

• Jason had taken a few group lessons at a local surf school and watched YouTube videos but was not making progress.

• A session was booked with the podcast host to address Jason's struggles.

• The host observed Jason's technique and identified that Jason was doing almost everything wrong but remained positive and enthusiastic.

• Jason was advised to use a bigger board and focus on matching waves rather than catching them.

Tip Number One: Match Waves, Don't Catch Waves

• The first tip emphasizes a change in perspective: instead of trying to catch waves, one should match them.

• Waves are not running away; they are coming towards the surfer.

• This tip encourages surfers to think of surfing as dancing with the ocean.

Tip Number Two: White Water Needs Flat Water

• The second tip focuses on wave selection and the importance of choosing the right waves.

• Surfers should look for waves with the smoothest water in front of them.

• The water between the wave and the beach should be nice and smooth and flat to make it easier to catch the main wave.

Tip Number Three: Stop Headling

• The third tip advises beginners to stop paddling for waves.

• Beginners should go into waist-deep water with an 8 or 9 foot soft top board.

• The board should be pointed towards the beach with hands in the center of the board on either rail.

• Wait until the white water hits the tail of the board and then jump onto the board and move forward towards the beach at the same time.

• The surfboard should be 90 degrees perpendicular to the wave for proper timing.

Wave Catching Academy

• The Wave Catching Academy is introduced as a solution for those frustrated with not catching waves.

• The academy promises to teach surfers how to catch waves effortlessly in weeks, not years.

• Registrations for the academy are open until the end of the week.

• More details and booking information can be found on the website surfmastery.com

Transcription

Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. The podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and to gain wisdom and confidence in the water. Today's episode is for the beginner surfer who is struggling to catch waves.

And for the longtime listener who's tuning in again, we've got a long-form interview coming up with Professor of Philosophy Aaron James, all about surfing philosophy, later this week. So make sure you're subscribed and keep an eye out for that one.

Let's get into today's episode. Let me tell you a quick story about Jason and then I'll go into three actionable tips.

So just before COVID hit, I was doing a lot of surf lessons and surf guiding in Southern California. And I got a call from Jason who had just discovered the show. And he'd heard an episode where I had said that after four weeks of surfing as a new surfer, you should be catching unbroken waves out the back. And he realized just how far behind the curve he was.

So he gave me a call. He was 42 and had been surfing almost daily for three months after having a few group lessons at his local surf school. And he said some days he just felt like giving up and that surfing just maybe wasn't something that he was physically capable of. But at the same time, he was hooked on surfing and felt extremely drawn to surfing and the ocean.

So we booked a session. I met Jason at a local beginner-friendly surf spot. And the first thing I do with a new client is just observe.

So I watched Jason flail around for about five minutes on his seven-foot soft top and I knew what was going on, so I waved him in. Basically, he had the complete wrong approach. It's a pretty typical story actually, especially for those who have started later in life. A few lessons at a local surf school that specializes in the tourist experience or teaching school kids, and then watching a few YouTube videos, and yeah, you can go pretty wrong.

As he was coming in, I went to the car and got the nine-foot soft top. He needed that. And as we sat down at the beach, I said, “Jason, mate, well done. Look, you're very confident in the water. But I got good news. And I've got best news.” He said, “Okay,” hesitantly. I said, “No, that means there's plenty of room for improvement. And the best news is that you've got a huge smile on your face despite all of that.”

So we had a quick chat about him sticking with a bigger board for a while. And then we talked about the difference between catching waves and matching waves. We just watched the surf for about five minutes and talked about wave selection. It's a big one actually. Most beginners aren't taught choosing the right whitewater. It's very important.

Then our goal for the last 40 minutes of the session was to catch as many waves as possible with as little effort, without paddling. So I went out with him in waist-deep water and gave him plenty of tips and talked him through the process. He said at the end he caught more waves in that 40 minutes than he'd caught in the last three weeks.

So let's break down the main things I taught Jason on that day into three tips that you can use.

Tip number one is to match waves, don't catch waves. This is a bit of a perspective change. The goal is not to catch waves. Waves are not running away from you. They are coming towards you. Another way to think of it is you've got to accept the invitation to dance. The language we use and the way we speak about and think about things shapes our perspectives and our beliefs, and therefore our actions.

So next time you go for a surf, think of it as dancing with the ocean. Match the wave. Don’t catch the wave.

Tip number two is whitewater needs flat water. This is about wave selection—choosing the right waves. This is not often talked about when it comes to beginners catching whitewater, but not all broken whitewater waves are equal. If you're struggling with consistency, chances are that you're choosing the wrong waves and you're not looking at the details of which waves you should be going for.

The key here is to look for the waves with the smoothest water in front of them. The water in between the wave and the beach needs to be nice and smooth and flat. The more boils or rips or little waves in front of the wave, or waves going across or backwashes there are, the harder it is to catch the main wave that you're looking at. Just like a mountain biker that’s looking at the details of where the front wheel is going, looking at the terrain.

So too should you be looking at the details of the water in front of you. So remember, whitewater needs flat water.

Tip number three. Stop paddling. That's right. If you are new to surfing, you need to stop paddling for waves. All you need to do is go into waist-deep water with an 8 or 9-foot soft top. No other board is appropriate for a beginner.

You point the board towards the beach, have your hands in the center of the board on either rail, wait until the whitewater hits the tail of your board, and then jump onto your board and forward towards the beach at the same time. That's it. That is all you need to do.

That is how you match the speed of the wave. Catching waves is all about timing. It is really important that your surfboard is 90 degrees to the wave. Not 89 degrees, not 91—90 degrees, perpendicular to the wave. Don't look at everyone else paddling. Don't let anyone else tell you you need to paddle. You don't.

If you need a visual on this, there is a link to a YouTube video in the show notes.

So to summarize: match waves, don’t catch waves. Whitewater needs flat water. And stop paddling.

Now if you are sick of the frustration and the shame that goes along with not catching waves, and you really want to learn how to catch waves finally, there is a formula to effortlessly catch waves in weeks, not years—without feeling like a kook. Guaranteed.

Join the Wave Catching Academy now. There is a link in the show notes to find out more details and to book. Registrations are open until the end of this week. There are links to that on the website at surfmastery.com.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. And if you want more surfing tips, including free PDFs and blogs, etc., surfmastery.com is the place to go.

And of course, there is the back catalog of timeless episodes of the Surf Mastery Podcast on Spotify, Apple, and Google, etc.

Thank you for tuning in. Until next time, keep surfing.

110: 3 Unconventional Surfing Tips To Catch More Waves and Learn Fast

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner Surfer to advaned.

Do you struggle to catch small waves, feel ashamed in the lineup, or question your surfing ability when no one else seems to miss a wave?

In this powerful solo episode, surf coach Michael Frampton shares the humbling (and transformative) story of how missing perfect waist-high waves drove him to uncover the real secrets of wave catching. Whether you're a beginner or intermediate surfer, this episode delivers exact, practical steps to break through shame, hesitation, and poor timing once and for all.

• Learn how to catch waves without paddling using a timing drill that builds real ocean awareness.

• Discover the mindset and movement hacks to reduce fear of falling and eliminate hesitation.

• Understand how to overcome the fear of shame and finally progress—even if you're practicing alone.

Listen now to learn the techniques that helped Michael—and now his students—go from frustration to flow in record time, starting with the very next session.

Click HERE to register or find out more about the Wave Catching Academy 

Tim Ferris - How I learned to Surf in 5 days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_c_FCTX0gk

Key Points

• Introduction to the Surf Mastery Podcast and its focus on helping surfers catch more waves with speed, style, and grace.

• Announcement of a follow-up episode on catching waves and tips to achieve this, with a teaser for a future episode on surfing philosophy.

• Discussion of Michael Frampton's personal experience with difficulty catching small, soft waves on a small wave shortboard and the resulting feelings of shame and frustration.

• Description of an encounter with a skilled surfer who effortlessly caught small waves, leading to Michael seeking coaching and experiencing a breakthrough in his surfing.

• Introduction of tip number one for catching waves: the importance of timing and the technique of jumping onto the board to match the speed of the wave without paddling.

• Explanation of the drill for beginners to practice catching waves in waist-deep water without paddling, emphasizing the importance of timing the jump correctly.

• Detailing the application of the timing technique for intermediate and advanced surfers, including the use of sprint paddles and the importance of practicing in white water.

• Introduction of tip number two: overcoming the fear of getting hurt or held underwater by playing in the white water and becoming comfortable with falling.

• Discussion of tip number three: overcoming the fear of failing and the associated shame by practicing in secluded areas away from other surfers.

• Announcement of the Wave Catching Academy, a program designed to help surfers improve their wave-catching skills and overcome feelings of shame and frustration. 

Outline

Introduction to the Podcast

• Michael Frampton welcomes listeners back or new to the Surf Mastery Podcast, which aims to help surfers catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and gain wisdom and confidence in the water.

• This episode is a solo follow-up to a previous episode, focusing on expanding tips for catching waves.

• An upcoming long-form interview on surfing philosophy is announced for next week.

Personal Experience with Catching Small Waves

• Michael shares a personal experience of struggling to catch small, soft waves on a small wave shortboard despite living in an area with good waves most of the time.

• Michael describes feeling disappointed and frustrated after failing to catch waves that were only waist high but perfectly shaped, with no wind and no other surfers around.

• An older surfer, a former pro, effortlessly caught the same waves, inspiring Michael to seek coaching and achieve a breakthrough in catching small waves.

Tips for Catching Waves

• Michael emphasizes the importance of timing, especially for catching smaller, softer waves on a shortboard.

• For beginners, Michael recommends using an 8 or 9 foot soft top surfboard, standing in waist-deep water, and jumping onto the board as the white water is about to hit the tail to match the wave's speed without paddling.

• Intermediate and advanced surfers should use their preferred mid-length or small wave shortboard and focus on timing two to four sprint paddles as the wave approaches, building on the beginner drill.

• Michael advises against rushing and emphasizes the importance of patience, watching experienced surfers who wait for the right moment to execute a breaststroke kick combined with sprint paddles to glide into the wave.

Overcoming Fear of Getting Hurt or Held Underwater

• Michael discusses the natural fear of getting hurt or held underwater and suggests playing in the white water to become comfortable with being tumbled and held under.

• He recommends choosing a safe, sandy swimming beach with lifeguards, using a bodyboard, and wearing a wetsuit for flotation.

• Michael stresses the importance of being a strong swimmer, capable of swimming 500 meters non-stop and 25 meters underwater, and suggests taking swimming lessons if necessary.

Overcoming the Fear of Failing

• Michael addresses the emotional fear of failing and the associated shame, suggesting that practice should initially be done in a place away from other surfers to minimize the fear of looking bad.

• He advises finding a spot where local surf schools conduct lessons, as these are usually sandy, flat, and easy waves for practice.

• Michael emphasizes that the goal is to become confident and competent enough to surf with others despite the fear of shame, focusing on successfully catching waves rather than appearance.

Wave Catching Academy

• Michael announces the opening of registrations for the Wave Catching Academy, designed to help surfers fast-track their progress in catching waves with confidence and competence.

• The academy aims to transform hesitant surfers into those who understand positioning, wave reading, and how to catch any desired wave.

• Registrations are open until the 7th of March, with the first 10 people to join receiving a free one-on-one session with Michael.

Transcription

Welcome back, or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. The podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves, surf with more speed, style, and grace, and to gain wisdom and confidence in the water. I am your host. Today's episode will be another solo episode. That is a follow-on from the episode that I released two days ago.

And we will expand on catching waves and give you some solid tips to do that. Next week we've got another long-form interview coming your way, all about surfing philosophy. So excited to release that one. So make sure you subscribe and stay tuned for that. In the last episode I was talking about a breakthrough I had in catching waves.

And for some reason it didn't really translate into catching small, soft waves on a small wave shortboard. Which was something that I really wanted to do. I was lucky enough to live in an area where the waves were mostly pretty good all the time. They were mostly head high. But every now and then a nice small swell would come through.

And I remember pulling up to the beach and the waves were small, only about waist high. But they were really nice. And it was no wind. Perfect shape to them. And there was no one else out. And I was so excited. And I grabbed my small wave shortboard and paddled out and spent at least 20 minutes. Just could not catch anything.

Any of these waves. Just could not figure it out. I just remember being so disappointed and frustrated and by now you've got a handful of people sitting in their cars watching, ready to come out surfing or decide whether to. So you're feeling shamed as well. And one of these surfers decided to come out and it was an older man in his 50s, on a board even smaller than mine, and he just paddled out and was just catching these waves like any other wave, just gliding into them with ease, going so fast, doing roundhouse cutbacks, just blowing my mind, and meanwhile, I couldn't even catch any of these waves, let alone stand up and surf one, and the contrast from them.

From going from being excited to go surfing to just feeling ashamed and disappointed and frustrated just was not only gut-wrenching, but it left me confused because it was like, how is this guy doing it? The waves are so soft and slow. How is he surfing a shortboard? And I was so determined to figure it out.

I ended up approaching him and he was, turns out he was a former pro, really friendly, and ended up getting some coaching from him, and it changed, had another breakthrough on small waves, because in surfing we often think it's quite simple, the wave comes towards the beach, and you paddle for it in the right part of the wave, and you glide in, and that's true for most waves, but when you start wanting to surf smaller waves.

On a shortboard, you've really got to get an eye in for the details and what I noticed he was doing, which was pointed out, was he was waiting a bit longer, and really letting the white water hit him, which gave him enough momentum to get going on the wave, and if you want to surf a broad variety of wave shapes and sizes, you need to be far more versatile and adaptable than you think.

And, sometimes you really need to be able to let the whitewater hit you and come from behind the section with speed to get going on small waves. And once you learn that skill, it actually expands the takeoff zone for you. If you mistime a wave and the wave hits you, you can actually still come around the section.

So learning to catch these smaller, softer waves helped me in all types of waves, and the drill that this surf coach got me to do is a really simple one, and this is it—tip number one: timing. I'll firstly describe this tip in a beginner-friendly version, and then I'll elaborate into how an intermediate or even advanced surfer can utilize it.

So the key here is to stop paddling for waves. That's right. If you're a beginner, first of all, you need to be on the right surfboard. It needs to be an 8 or a 9-foot soft top, depending on your height and weight. And no other surfboard is appropriate for a beginner. Stay away from places like First Point, Malibu.

Go to a beach where you see surf schools take their groups of 50 tourists. That's the beach you want to practice this drill. And what you want to do is you want to stand in waist-deep water, with your board facing towards the beach, hands in the middle of the board, holding each rail, and then wait. Wait until the white water is just about to hit the tail of your board, and then you jump.

Onto your board and forward to match the speed of the wave at the same time. And you land in your paddling position, and that jump forward has allowed you to match the speed of the wave. And that's it—no paddling necessary. The focus here is getting the timing of the jump. Don't even worry about standing up at this stage. For beginners, you're just looking to catch the wave with good timing without paddling.

Play around with it. Wait until the wave has passed the tail of your board and is about to hit you, and then try it. Just play around with the timing. Get really comfortable with catching waves in waist-high water without paddling.

For the intermediate and advanced surfers that are struggling to catch small waves, the drill is exactly the same. It's just the type of surfboard you'll be using. So for an intermediate surfer, you might be on a fiberglass mid-length or your favorite sort of mid-size soft top, and for your advanced surfer, just get on your small wave shortboard.

But the drill is the same. No paddling. Get the timing right. So how does this apply to catching unbroken waves for the intermediate and advanced surfer? When you're sitting on your surfboard and a small wave is approaching, you want to time two to four sprint paddles just as the wave is about to hit you.

And if you've practiced the drill, as I mentioned, you'll be used to popping up in the whitewater and maintaining speed from that push. Because actually popping up and riding the wave in the turbulence of that whitewater is a lot harder than you think. And it's a skill that you might not have practiced in a while.

You would have practiced it a lot when you were learning, but it's good to go back. So not only are you practicing catching the wave in the whitewater, but you're also going to practice popping up and surfing those beginner waves. One of the most common mistakes at all levels is rushing. I see too many surfers just paddling frantically rather than being patient and timing some good sprint paddles.

Watch really experienced surfers when they're in the right spot. They don't rush. They wait for the wave to engulf the back of the board, and then they execute like a breaststroke kick with their legs, combined with a couple of sprint paddles, and the board's buoyancy kind of pops them forward like a cork in water, and they just glide into the wave effortlessly.

Sometimes a lot of the paddling for the wave surfers do is actually to get in the right position to be able to do that. And by no means am I saying don't paddle hard for waves. In fact, you need to be a strong paddler that can paddle hard for waves. The first step is to master the timing in broken whitewater waves.

Tip number two would be overcoming the fear of getting hurt or held underwater. Now, this fear will never go away completely. It’s natural. You should be cautious about getting hurt or drowning. But you can prepare for it so that it’s not so overwhelming. The drill here is just to simply play in the whitewater.

Just like kids at the beach. They love playing in the shore break, getting hit, tumbled around. They love feeling the power of the ocean. You should get comfortable with getting tumbled in the shore break, getting held under, and having sand go everywhere. And if this makes you feel uncomfortable, you have to spend time doing this.

I remember Tim Ferriss did a TV series called The Tim Ferriss Experiment, where he tried to learn a bunch of skills as fast as possible by working with experts intensively for five days. He did golf, drumming, dancing, and surfing was one of them. And he got Laird Hamilton, and the first thing that Laird got him to do was to play in the whitewater.

He had to get rid of that fear of being held under and rolled around. Because if you're afraid of what happens when you fall off or make a mistake, you simply can't be present. I strongly recommend you go and watch that episode. It's free on YouTube now. I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes.

And I used to teach adult skateboarding as well, and the first thing that we'd learn is to fall safely on the grass. And then we'd progress to learning how to fall and slide safely with all the gear on. And only then can they be present enough to learn how to skate. Kids don't have this fear anywhere near as much because they're made of rubber and naivety, but you simply cannot learn anything without falling.

Prepare and minimize the fear of falling. Choose a safe, sandy swimming beach where there are lifeguards and practice this. You can get a bodyboard as well, play around. Wear a wetsuit; it helps with flotation. A tip that goes along with this one is you need to be a strong swimmer.

You should be able to swim 500 meters non-stop and 25 meters underwater. So if you can't do those two things, I highly recommend just going and getting some swimming lessons.

Tip number three is overcoming the fear of failing. Now, we just covered the physical fear of falling, but now we're talking about the emotional fear of failing. And the fear of failure is tied to shame. The fear of looking bad in front of others. What's the solution? Practice tip one and two in a place where other surfers aren't.

As I mentioned in tip one, stay out of the way. If you're a beginner, there's no need to go to a surf break where good surfers are. You can go to any swimming beach out of the way and find your own spot away from people and practice these drills. Find out where the local surf school takes their groups and does lessons and stay around there somewhere.

There are always nice, sandy, flat, easy waves to practice this sort of stuff in. The fear of shame—it's never going to go away completely. The goal here is to get to a point where you feel confident and competent enough to surf with other surfers despite the shame, and you should be able to focus on successfully catching the wave, not on how you look.

Because even when you go to a place where good surfers aren’t, the fear of failure is still going to come up. There’s a certain amount of that you're just going to have to push through until your skills improve. The most important thing is just stay safe, stay out of the way, and if the desire to get better is stronger than your fear of failure, you’ll put the hours in.

Because surfing is hard. It takes time. There’s no way around that. But these three tips will help you to get there fastest.

So to summarize: you’re going to practice the timing by catching whitewater waves in waist-high water without paddling. You’re going to play around in the shore break and get used to what happens when you fall, as well as making sure that you’re a strong swimmer and you’re comfortable being underwater.

And you’re going to practice these drills away from surf breaks where other surfers are watching and judging. And you’re going to make sure that you’re doing it at the right spot.

Now if you're truly serious about learning the art of catching waves and overcoming the shame, the frustration, and the disappointment of missing waves and watching others, then I’ve got good news for you.

Registrations are open for the Wave Catching Academy, which starts up very soon. There is no need for you to spend the years that I spent guessing, overthinking, and struggling to figure these things out on your own. And that’s why I created the Wave Catching Academy—so you can fast-track your progress.

You’ll go from being hesitant and ignored in the lineup to being someone that catches waves with confidence and competence. No more getting dropped in on. No more getting snaked. You’ll understand positioning and how to read waves, and of course, how to catch any wave that you like.

Registrations are open until the 7th of March, but numbers are limited as well, so get in quick. The first 10 people who join will also get a free one-on-one session with me.

So if you're serious about transforming your surfing and finally feeling like a surfer instead of a kook, it starts with learning how to catch waves. So click the link in the description or the show notes, or go to surfmastery.com and join the Wave Catching Academy.

Hope to see you there, and until next week, keep surfing.

109 How to Catch More Waves and Abolish Surfing Shame

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner Surfer to advaned.

Is your biggest frustration in surfing simply not catching enough waves? You’re not alone—and it’s more fixable than you think.

In this solo episode, surf coach Michael Frampton shares the raw truth behind why catching waves is the foundation of great surfing—and how most people are doing it wrong. From surf anxiety to breakthroughs, this episode is packed with personal lessons, powerful mindset shifts, and the practical steps that changed everything for him.

• Learn why catching waves is 80% positioning and confidence—and how to master both.

• Discover how small tweaks in your technique and body language lead to more waves and more respect in the lineup.

• Understand how even one key insight can unlock barreling waves, faster surfing, and a more joyful experience in the water.

Hit play now to learn the exact steps Michael used to transform from anxious surfer to confident charger—and how you can do the same with less time and effort than you think.

https://learn.surfmastery.com/wave-catching-academy-1

https://surfmastery.com

For more surfing tips visit www.surfmastery.com 

Key Points

• Introduction of the Surf Mastery Podcast and the addition of weekly episodes focusing on various surfing topics.

• Discussion on the difficulty of catching waves and the importance of reading the ocean and positioning correctly.

• Personal anecdote about Michael's experience of moving to the east coast of Australia, realizing his below-average surfing skills, and the resulting anxiety.

• Explanation of the competence and confidence hierarchy in surfing, where confident and competent surfers catch more waves.

• Story of Michael's encounter with an 11-year-old surfer who inspired him to improve his own surfing skills.

• Michael's journey of seeking surf coaching, undergoing video analysis, and discovering the key to catching waves.

• The transformation in Michael's surfing experience after gaining confidence and improving his techniques.

• Introduction of the Wave Catching Academy, a program designed to help surfers catch waves with confidence and skill.

• Offer of a free one-on-one session with video analysis for the next 10 people who join the Wave Catching Academy. 

Outline

Introduction to the Surf Mastery Podcast

• Michael welcomes listeners back to the Surf Mastery Podcast, a platform aimed at helping surfers improve their skills and enjoy surfing more.

• The podcast format includes long-form interviews conducted monthly, with the addition of weekly episodes.

• This particular episode focuses on the topic of catching waves, which Michael describes as the hardest part of surfing.

Personal Experience with Surfing

• Michael shares a personal anecdote about moving to the east coast of Australia, where the waves were consistently good and the level of surfing was high.

• Despite having surfed for 15 years and considering themselves a good surfer, Michael felt below average in this new environment.

• The feelings of shame and embarrassment led to crippling surfing anxiety, affecting body language and performance.

Competence and Confidence in Surfing

• There is a competence and confidence hierarchy in surfing where confident and competent surfers catch more waves.

• Waves are a limited resource, and to get a share, one must know how to catch them.

• Good surfers can sense fear and uncertainty, leading to being 'snaked' or dropped in on.

Turning Point in Surfing

• Michael recounts a specific incident where an 11-year-old surfer outperformed them at a barreling reef wave called the Slack.

• This experience served as a rock bottom moment, inspiring Michael to seek surf coaching and video analysis.

• Through coaching, Michael identified what they were doing wrong and developed strategies to correct it, leading to rapid improvement.

Impact of Improved Surfing Skills

• As Michael's skills and confidence improved, their body language changed, leading to more respect from other surfers and catching more waves.

• Michael started surfing bigger, faster waves and getting barreled, which significantly enhanced their surfing experience.

• This transformation inspired Michael to become a surf coach.

Importance of Catching Waves

• Catching the wave with good timing is essential for surfing the entire wave with good timing.

• Simple realizations can lead to significant breakthroughs in surfing ability and open up new types of waves to surf.

Frustrations of Inexperienced Surfers

• Michael empathizes with surfers who feel ashamed of their surfing abilities and struggle to catch waves.

• There is a sense of frustration when less experienced surfers seem to know what they are doing.

Simplicity of Catching Waves

• Michael believes that catching lots of waves and enjoying surfing is simpler than commonly thought.

• Much of the advice available online is overcomplicated and incorrect.

• Simple fixes, when identified correctly, can make a significant difference.

Wave Catching Academy

• Michael has condensed the tips and strategies learned over the years into a program called the Wave Catching Academy.

• The program aims to help surfers become confident, catch waves effortlessly, and surf with speed and style within 90 days or as little as 14 days.

• The first 10 people to join will receive a free one-on-one session with video analysis.

• Interested individuals can join by clicking the link in the description or visiting surfmastery.com.

Transcription

Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. This is a podcast that helps surfers to not only be better surfers, but to enjoy surfing more, to get more out of surfing, to become wiser surfers. The format for this podcast has mostly been long-form interviews at around about a monthly basis, and that will continue, but we're going to add some weekly episodes in the mix as well. This episode in particular is about catching waves. Catching waves is—I'd say—the hardest part of surfing.

Like, to catch the wave in the right spot, pop up in the right position on the wave—no matter what level of surfer you are—that's always the hardest part. It's like reading the ocean and getting in the right spot and catching the wave. I remember when I first moved to the east coast of Australia, and it was the first time that I'd lived in a place where the waves were good, like really good. Consistently good. And the level of surfing was right up there. The surfers were so good, and at this point in my life, I'd been surfing for, yeah, 15 years. I thought I was a good surfer, but, you know, I was a late starter—I didn’t start till I was 17—and I was 100% self-taught, but I loved surfing so much.

But as soon as I lived in this area, which was riddled with good waves and good surfers, I quickly realized just how below average I was. And gosh, I remember the feelings of shame and embarrassment were just so overwhelming. It gave me crippling surfing anxiety every time I surfed. Gosh, it would affect my body language. I would come across as very unconfident and actually surf below my own surfing abilities. Because good surfers, they can smell that fear and that uncertainty. And they just snake you, and they drop in on you and... it's fair enough too. There's a competence and confidence hierarchy in surfing. Confident and competent surfers do catch more waves. Waves are a limited resource, you know, and if you want to get your share, then... you better know how, and you better learn.

I remember surfing the Slack, like a barreling reef wave on a small day. And it's a wave that I'd watched for six months before even surfing it once. And it was so intimidating. And then I'd been surfing it every day for about three months. And I was out there by myself one day—it was in the middle of the day, was only about three foot—and I was sitting on the shoulder dodging the barrel. And I was about 34 years old and surfing for 16 years. And this 11-year-old kid from out of town paddled out. He'd never surfed the place. And he was just taking off deep under the lip and just playing with it, getting these crazy barrels. And... I just felt like giving up. Instead, I didn’t. I let it inspire me, and I was like, what is he doing? What does he see in the wave that I'm missing? I had to find out.

So it was definitely like a rock bottom point in my surfing life. Back then—this was like 2016—surf coaching definitely was not cool back then, but there were plenty of surf coaches around. And I got some surf coaching done. I actually had multiple lessons from a bunch of different surf coaches just to get some different perspectives and got some video analysis done, and finally something clicked, and I knew what I was doing wrong. I had strategies that I needed to correct and stuff to work on. And I just started catching my waves, started taking off deeper, and just started to improve real quickly. And everything stacked upon each other because as I sort of became more confident and more self-aware, my body language changed. I was catching more waves. Partly because I knew what I was doing, I was reading the ocean better and had the right perspectives and techniques, but it just affected my body language and my confidence in the water.

So good surfers weren't second guessing my ability and snaking me, and they were actually starting to sort of let me take my turn. Once I discovered the secret to catching waves, it sparked a whole different journey in my surfing progression and, more importantly, like my experience of surfing. I started surfing bigger waves, faster waves. I was getting barreled. And all simply just because of a few simple realizations that became the foundation for not only my own surfing, but inspired me to become a surf coach. Because surfing is kind of like singing. If you don't hit that first note, then the rest of the song is off.

So catching the wave with good timing is essential for surfing the entire wave with good timing.

So sometimes it just takes a couple of little things, if they're the right things, and it can change everything. Like I broke through a huge plateau in my ability, and it just opened up, you know, the types of waves I could surf. I ended up booking a trip to Indo with confidence. Something I hadn't done before. And, cause you know, there is nothing more frustrating than being a surfer and just feeling ashamed of the way you surf, and not being able to catch waves, and just having less experienced surfers around you just knowing what they're doing. That's the worst feeling, and I know that firsthand. Catching lots of waves and really fully enjoying surfing is so much simpler than we think. I find a lot of the advice out there on the YouTube videos and stuff is actually—they're just overcomplicated. It's wrong. Because when I first started taking surf coaching lessons, I was shocked at how simple the fixes were, really. And that's, you know, because I'd spent years overthinking and struggling to figure things out on my own. All I needed was a bit of guidance, you know. I don't want you to. There's no need to waste years stuck in that same cycle that I was stuck in. Those simple concepts I learned back then that became the foundation of the next part of my surfing journey—they've been built upon and simplified since then because I've had... Not only have I been on multiple surf trips, I've used a lot more different coaches from around the world, and I've been coaching hundreds of people along the way since then. And 10 years on, I've simplified those tips and condensed them into a nice simple program called the Wave Catching Academy. And it's a program that I wish I had back then.

So if you're struggling to catch waves and you're feeling frustrated and shame when you go surfing, then this program is for you. Because in less than 90 days, in as little as 14 days, you can become a confident surfer who gets respect, catches waves effortlessly, and surfs with speed and style. No more hesitating. You know how to position yourself, how to read the waves properly, and catch them with confidence. There'll be no more getting snaked or dropped in on. You'll surf with competent and confident body language and skills that will signal that you know what you're doing. And you get more waves. And for the next 10 people that join, I'll give you a free one-on-one session where we can do some video analysis—absolutely free.

So if you're serious about transforming your surfing and finally feeling like a surfer instead of a kook, then click the link in the description or go to surfmastery.com to join the Wave Catching Academy. Spots are limited. So click the link now.

108 Catching Waves - The Foundation of Good Surfing

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer

What can surfing teach us about golf? - What can golf teach us about surfing? How does a former LPGA pro balance technique with pure joy in both sports?

Whether you're chasing consistency in golf, mastering the perfect wave, or just trying to stay calm under pressure, Tiffany Joh’s story offers a fresh perspective on finding balance between intensity and flow. As a retired LPGA pro-turned-surfing enthusiast and national golf coach, Tiffany reveals surprising connections between the worlds of golf, surfing, and music, along with how mindset and play can fuel long-term success.

In this episode, you'll discover:

• The surprising parallels between surfing and golf and how these lessons can improve performance in both.

• Mindset secrets for managing pressure and staying in the zone during competition.

• Why consistency trumps intensity—and how 20-minute sessions might be the key to progress in any skill.

Listen now to learn how Tiffany Joh’s journey from pro golf to surfing can inspire you to embrace consistency, mindset mastery, and the joy of lifelong learning.

 Notable Quotes:

• "The best way to improve is to be really consistent. I'd take 20 minutes every day over six hours on the weekend."

• "Golf and surfing both require a balance between technique and feel—you work on your craft like it’s the most important thing, but compete like it doesn’t matter."

• "Surfers and golfers attract the same personalities. Both can be super personal or really social, depending on what you’re looking for."

• "In golf, you never wait for perfection before stepping into competition—just go with what you have and make it work."

• "Pressure is good. You’ve practiced it. You’ve been here before. Now just swing."

Key Points

• Tiffany grew up in San Diego and started playing golf at age 12 after being inspired by Sari Pak's iconic win at the 1998 US Women's Open.

• Tiffany started surfing at age 24 or 25 during her off-season from professional golf.

• Tiffany sees parallels between surfing and golf in terms of the balance between technique and feel, and the pursuit of something difficult.

• Tiffany's musical background initially hindered her golf development due to the perfectionist mindset in music.

• Tiffany emphasizes the importance of consistency over intensity in both surfing and golf for improvement.

• Tiffany uses visualization techniques and focuses on her target to improve her putting in golf.

• Tiffany prefers to have a limited number of surfboards (3) and golf clubs, replacing them selectively based on needs.

• Tiffany has not been to a wave pool yet but is open to trying it despite potential pressure.

Outline

Tiffany's Golf Career

• Tiffany grew up in San Diego and began playing golf at age 12 after being inspired by Sari Pak's win at the 1998 US Women's Open.

• Their father, a professor at San Diego State University, enrolled them in a free junior golf program where they became increasingly competitive.

• They played for UCLA during college and qualified for the professional tour after graduating, spending 11 years on the LPGA.

• After retiring in July 2021, they transitioned to coaching, starting with a Division 2 program in San Diego before moving to USC, and recently took a position as a coach for the US national team.

Introduction to Surfing

• Tiffany started surfing relatively late, around age 24-25, during a surf trip to Nicaragua with Holly Beck, leaving their golf clubs behind.

• Upon returning from the trip, they got a board and began surfing consistently, often doing dawn patrol sessions before afternoon golf practice.

• This routine of combining surfing and golf became part of their yearly schedule, frequently taking surf trips after the golf season ended.

Similarities Between Golf and Surfing

• Both sports can be frustrating due to the effort required versus the results achieved.

• Consistency is key in both sports, with frequent short sessions being more beneficial than occasional long ones.

• Both require a balance between technique and feel, with the ability to adapt to changing conditions.

• Golf and surfing can be either introspective and personal or highly social, depending on the individual's mood and goals.

• Both involve a lot of waiting or downtime between moments of action.

• Trying too hard often leads to worse performance in both sports, emphasizing the importance of relaxation and flow.

Coaching Philosophy

• As a golf coach, Tiffany focuses less on technique and more on mental aspects, course management, and helping players handle tournament-day emotions.

• They emphasize the importance of practicing under pressure to prepare for real competition scenarios.

• Drills that push players to the edge of frustration are used to help them learn to manage emotions and make adjustments under pressure.

Impact of Surfing on Golf Approach

• Learning to surf helped Tiffany develop a more relaxed approach to golf.

• Being a beginner in surfing and enjoying it despite poor performance helped maintain perspective in their professional golf career.

• The casual approach to surfing positively influenced their golf game, reminding them to enjoy the process even when not performing at their best.

Staying Connected to the Target

• In both golf and surfing, staying connected to the target is emphasized.

• In golf, focusing beyond the ball and looking at a spot slightly in front while putting helps maintain awareness of the overall goal rather than getting too focused on technique.

• Similarly, in surfing, looking ahead at the wave rather than down at the board is important.

Equipment Preferences

• Throughout their golf career, Tiffany has owned numerous sets of clubs, often replacing individual clubs based on course conditions or new technology.

• Driver technology changes rapidly, making it beneficial to use the latest models.

• In contrast, their approach to surfboards is much simpler, owning only three boards for different conditions, mirroring their advice to keep surfing equipment simple, especially for beginners.

Fears and Cautionary Experiences

• In golf, Tiffany's biggest fear is accidentally hitting a spectator or volunteer with a golf ball.

• In surfing, their most frightening experience was getting tangled in a lobster trap rope while surfing near a cliff in Mexico, which taught them to be more cautious about ocean conditions.

Advice for Surfers

• Key advice for surfers is to prioritize consistency over intensity.

• Frequent, short sessions (20-30 minutes) are recommended rather than infrequent long sessions, leading to steady improvement and greater enjoyment of the sport.

Transcription

Michael Frampton

Hello! How are you? Sorry, I think we just had some technical problems. I saw that you had joined the meeting, and then—anyway, we're here now. Cool. All right. Well, thank you so much for doing this. First of all, I'm super stoked! Cool, let me just get the recording going. Okay, and you've got AirPods in—awesome. All right.

Okay, so can we start? Would you be able to do a little bit of a self-introduction? I think, you know, your background as an athlete and as a coach—and then we'll get into the surfing stuff.

Tiffany Joh

Yeah, sure!

So, I grew up in San Diego, which is a great surf town. Unfortunately, I did not surf growing up. I think I lived just far enough inland—about half an hour—that I was too lazy to make it all the way to the beach.

I actually grew up playing a lot of instruments and wasn’t really much of an athlete. But in 1998, a woman named Se Ri Pak from South Korea won the U.S. Women's Open in iconic fashion. On the last hole, her ball almost went into the water, and she took off her socks and shoes, waded into the water, and ended up winning in a playoff.

Pretty much the very next week, I picked up a golf club. My parents didn’t know much about golf, and I was only 12 at the time. The only reason our family was even watching was that this was the first time we had seen a South Korean female athlete on TV. It was incredibly inspiring for us as a people.

So, the very next week, I picked up a golf club. My parents didn’t really know anything about golf, but my dad was a professor at San Diego State University. There was a free junior golf program right next to campus, and I think in his mind, he thought, "Perfect. This is free babysitting. I can just drop off my kid and not worry about it during the summer."

That’s pretty much what he did, and I ended up getting more competitive through that free program. Eventually, I got recruited by a couple of colleges and ended up playing for UCLA. After I graduated, I qualified for the pro tour and played on the LPGA for 11 years.

I retired in July of 2021, and the very next week, I started an assistant coaching position at a Division II program in North County, San Diego. Over the past couple of years, I’ve been working at USC, which is ironic since it’s a big-time rival of UCLA.

Just this past month, I took on a new role as a coach for the U.S. national team, which is my new gig now.

Michael Frampton

Oh wow that's an impressive athletic background and resume wow and coaching now that's awesome okay so so when did thanks for that what when did surfing come into the picture?

Tiffany Joh

So it's actually a really interesting story so I don't know if you're super familiar with you know the way the LPGA tour works but there's actually like a developmental tour kind of like the equivalent of the QS going into the world like the championship tour so straight out of college I actually played on it's called the Epson tour so I played on the Epson tour for like a year and then ended up kind of getting like partial status on the LPGA tour so I was kind of jumping back and forth and and in my mind it's like the best

way to mentally play your first year of professional golf because like you're just so grateful to be playing any given week, right?

So I would go play in these, you know, developmental tour events and I would play well and then it would just like translate automatically to the very next week when I played on like the big tour.

So I ended up playing really well, playing my way to better status and then my second year I had full status and I played awful like missed every single cut like did horrible and by the end of the year so there's two ways to qualify to get your LPGA tour card.

One way is to spend a year on that developmental tour and the top 10 ranked players at the very end of the year get their tour card.

The other way is to go to Q school which is this like gnarly two week long high pressure tournament and by the end of it 20 women get their cards for the following year.

So knowing that I had pretty much played my way into a position where I was going to have to go.

back to Q-School. I think I intuitively knew that I was super burnt out from the season and really discouraged.

So I actually, at the very end of the season before I had to go to Q-School, I had like two months before I had to start getting ready for it.

I actually booked this surf trip with Paul Lee Beck, who's another guest that you had on your show. And so that was down in Nicaragua.

And so I flew down there, like left the club at home. There's no golfers down there anyway. And I ended up just like learning down there.

And then I came back and right away got aboard and started going pretty consistently in the morning, like driving the half hour to the beach.

And then I got into this great routine where I would go and do dump patrol. I didn't know enough about like reading the conditions.

I just kind of paddled out no matter what. And then I would come home, like eat some lunch. And then I would go practicing the afternoon.

And then a couple of months after I went back to Q-School, ended up breathing through got second. and I think ever since then it's been kind of part of my yearly routine that after the season is over when we have some time, I just go do some epic, I call it a treat to yourself, surf trip somewhere.

Michael Frampton

Cool. So how old were you when you started surfing?

Tiffany Joh

So I had to have there in my last year, I was probably 24, 25.

Michael Frampton

Yep, okay. Do you think having that background as a professional athlete and golfer helped you to learn surfing faster than others?

Tiffany Joh

I don't know if there were any like actual like direct ways that it translated, but I think there's something to be said for pursuing something that's really hard and really difficult to do.

I definitely think that I haven't played a ton of other sports, but surfing and golf both have to be quite frustrating in terms of the energy and you know the effort that

put in and what you actually get out of it. So I think it's kind of that pursuit of something really difficult.

So I do think that maybe that mindset really translated to help me maybe improve little bit faster than a normal person.

Michael Frampton

So maybe you got over some of the frustrations of surfing faster than others because it's similar in golf.

Tiffany Joh

Yeah, and I think there's something about maybe this is for for all hobbies or sports, but like, you know, I do think that the best way to improve is to be really consistent and both surfing and golf.

Like, you know, I'll take a person who's paddling out for 20, 30 minutes every day over the person that every other weekend is putting like six hours in the water.

Like, there's something, I think, I don't know if it's something with like your brain, but something important that happens in between all these sessions.

So it was interesting that the way that I approached surfing was really similar to the way that I approached

I'm a big fan of like a bunch of mini sessions, so, you know, even when I was playing professionally, I would like break up my session or my practice sessions into like three or four throughout the day and I would go do something and come back because there's something about that back and forth that helped me kind of process something.

Michael Frampton

Are you a golf nerd? Like did you really nerd out about technique and get multiple coaches and dive right into it?

Tiffany Joh

You know, I'm not and I've never been. I think one of the best, one of the funniest stories, there was one offseason where I had to get my clubs with regrets.

So I just went to just some random pro shop in the area and I brought in my clubs and the guys and they were so excited and I was what's the kick point on this?

What's, what's, you know, the shaft flex, I don't know, it was purple and I liked it, but which is funny because that's exactly how I am with surfing whenever we go to beach and people are like, oh, what's the swell direction?

Like, what's the wind? I'm like, I don't know how it looks wet.

Michael Frampton

So what's your how would you describe your role as a golf coach? Are you not focused on the technique and stuff so much?

Tiffany Joh

Is it more about the head game or? Yeah, I think, you know, at the college level, especially this new generation of golfer, I mean, they've been getting instruction, they've been doing fitness training since they were like eight, nine years old, and they are so polished by the time they get to us that a lot of what we do is kind of like helping them manage emotions on tournament day, kind of helping them with some course management, like, you know, plotting their way through the course.

Just, you know, like, you know, all of like the little things, and I think the little details that at this level actually make a bigger difference.

Michael Frampton

Okay, so just sort of eliciting them to get into the zone at the start of the round.

Tiffany Joh

Great.

Michael Frampton

And do you use those tools yourself, if the surface is particularly challenging and you're feeling the pressure or?

Tiffany Joh

No, I mean, honestly, I'm not really good enough to feel any pressure out in the water. think any time I get out there and regardless of what happens or how many times I go over the fault or whatever it's in me, I'm just so grateful to be out there.

So I think I actually do think in a lot of ways, when I started surfing, it really helped my mind set in golf at a professional level.

You're always going to take things a little bit too seriously, but it was kind of refreshing to go do this thing that I was horrible at and still enjoy doing it.

It's difficult being a retired professional golfer now because I still have these really high expectations, but I don't put in the time and the work to really meet those expectations.

So pretty much every time I go out there, I'm pretty frustrated, but I think with surfing, I'm always so happy to be out in the water that it was a really great thing to try to translate into my golf game.

Michael Frampton

Interesting. So your casual approach to surfing helped you took some of that into your golf?

Tiffany Joh

Yeah, absolutely. I think surfing in golfing there's so many parallel, but one of them is, you know, oftentimes the harder you try, like the worse it gets, you know, the more pressure you put into something, like the less, I don't know, flow you have or what have you.

So sometimes it's with golf, I, one of my coaches and those really young said the secret is to work on your craft.

Like, it's the most important thing in the world, but to compete like nothing matters.

Michael Frampton

Okay, so all of the hard work is done at the driving range, not when you're actually playing, is that what you mean by that?

Tiffany Joh

Yeah, and I think, you know, or on the putting green or the chipping green, and I think when you, a lot of the times when we're trying to figure out what thrills or tests or games we're doing in practice, a lot of it is to just push ourselves to like the very edge of the right?

Not make it so difficult that or so impossible to complete that you quit, but to really like push you to the edge of being really frustrated so that when you get onto the golf course, you're almost recreating that feeling and you know how to deal with it because you've practiced that before.

So in a lot of ways, you know, when people try to do, you know, putting drills or something and it's like a must make situation, they try to make it so there's as much pressure on themselves as possible.

So when they come down to the last hole. a U.S. Open and they have to make a six footer to win or whatever.

They're like, all these emotions that I'm feeling, like I've practiced this and I've been here before and I know the appropriate adjustments to make.

Michael Frampton

So you're giving yourself confidence in the practice?

Tiffany Joh

Yeah. I think everyone under pressure has some kind of tendency, right? So for me, I'm a very fast paced energetic person.

So, if I'm feeling nervous, I'll start walking fast, I'll start talking fast, start speaking fast. And in a lot of ways, that starts to mess up my rhythm.

So in practice, if I put myself under pressure and I practice consciously trying to slow myself down just to counteract, you know, how fast I go, then when I'm under pressure in a tournament, I can be like, all right, I know what I do, I know what my tendency is, like, this is how I'm going to adjust.

Michael Frampton

You mentioned music and I actually, I saw on your Instagram a clip of you, but singing and playing guitar.

It sounded amazing by the way. sing beautifully. Do you see parallels between music and golf and surfing?

Tiffany Joh

A little bit. I think actually in a lot of ways, my music go background kind of hindered my golfing development just because...

Yeah, I think there's this aspect of music that's like... So I played like in the marching band. was a concert pianist and played the violin at the little kid and a lot of it was like, I'm gonna perfect this and then once it's perfect, I'm gonna perform, right?

But a lot of golf and I think what I see with a lot of, you know, this newer generation is...

They wait for things to be perfect before they take it to a turn of it. But like, your golf is never gonna be perfect.

Like, you know, the tiger was the best player in the world. world and he wasn't even perfect. He didn't play a perfect round of golf.

So there's kind of this attitude with I think all athletes need to have. And it's, I'm just going to go out with whatever I have.

And I'm going to make it work. And I think it's a really difficult transition when you come from a musical background.

So when I was a little kid, Yo-Yo Ma had this practice routine where, you know, within a piece of musical composition, there's all these measures.

So he used to have this, he called it like a five quarter drill. So he would play the first measure, and then he would move a quarter over.

And every time he played it perfectly, he would move a quarter over. But if he messed up once out of the five, he would move them all back.

And then he would play the first and second measure together, first and second, third measure together until he was playing through the entire composition five times in a row, perfect, which is insane.

It must have taken forever. But that's kind of the mentality you kind of, you learn to have a music, whereas sometimes

I think with like their thing and golf, it's so condition dependent and it's never going to be exactly the way that you envision it and you kind of need to learn how to make adjustments on the fly and be okay with like nexting up and recovering.

So I do think sometimes that like in a lot of ways they're different. Now I do think that all of those things, all three of those things require a lot of practice and that kind of is beneficial and anything that you end up doing.

Michael Frampton

I guess with music makes me think you were referencing a particular piece of music, not just music in general.

And whereas I guess golf and surfing in particular is more like a jam session, you're not going into it with a particular way of playing or a song to play.

You're just going in to be in tune with the way that the wind is on the course or the way that

it's conditions I was surfing.

Tiffany Joh

Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, like, I think most athletics is probably more like improvisational, right? So, um, but, and I think this was maybe another parallel, I think, um, a lot.

So I don't, I came from like a classical background. So everything was like, you just go buy the book, you go buy like whatever the composer wrote for you.

But I do remember when I was in third grade, I met this kid from Kentucky who taught himself like jazz improvisational piano and it was so impressive.

But he was telling me like, you put in all this work on the fundamentals, you learn all the scales, you learn all the like different chords.

So, and then you earn the like kind of the privilege of having fun as you get to improvise. So I thought that was like a really cool thing because I think like, I definitely see the same thing with surfing.

Like, I don't know a ton of maneuvers, but when I see someone who's really good and they, you know, have their floater that comes back and everything.

They put in a lot of work to get their fundamentals down so that when they go out, they can have a ton of fun and be like very like improvisational and water.

Michael Frampton

Yeah. Yeah, I've always thought surfing is kind of like improvisation or improvisational music, whereas, you know, if you wanted to play that way, it's still important for you to practice your scales and do your ear training and understand your instrument and etc.

But the reason you're doing that strict practice is so that you can jam and improvise not necessarily to perform a piece perfectly and that's where I sort of maybe see the analogy between music and surfing.

Tiffany Joh

Yeah, I agree.

Michael Frampton

Yeah, because most people don't approach it that way, but I think you see that in this swing and... All the different clubs at the driving range etc.

So that when they do go out and play on the course They don't have to necessarily think about it.

They just play the game right sure You just you mentioned that there were a lot of parallels between surfing and golf What what what comes to mind and why did you say that?

Tiffany Joh

I think just like the Exactly kind of along the lines of what we're talking about this like balance of like technique, but then also like feel right so in a lot of mental coaches and golf talk about like when you should be working on technical things and when you should just go completely on feel and and the consensus is that Before like you know in the week leading up to a tournament There's a certain line and everyone is maybe a little bit different where you like

work really hard on your technique, but at a certain point, once you're in the midst of competition, you kind of throw it out the window and you kind of just have to react.

It is actually, I mean, so I think I'd only been searching for maybe two or three years and I was just learning to like how the waves would go down the line, but I was super into it.

And I had a friend that played on floor with me who came down to San Diego to visit all the club manufacturers in the area and then we went and played Tory Pines and afterwards, I kind of looked, know, La Hoya is right there and I'm like, she was kind of fun.

do you mind before we get French if I just have a lot for like 20 minutes? And she's like, yeah, I'll just sit here and watch.

And I got out of water and I was like, well, you know, what'd you think? She was like, you know, you love surfing, you invest so much time and money and energy and I just, I kind of thought you'd feel a little bit better.

It was like, such a dagger to the heart, but my response was, Imagine if, you know, someone was trying to learn how to hit a golf ball for the first time, but every time they wanted to hit it, they had to sprint from 40 yards away, take six other people, and then like the ball might move somewhere else.

imagine how long it would take to like get better, because you don't have any opportunity to like in the rain, any type of muscle memory or whatever.

So in my mind, I was like, that's what surfing feels like to me. feels like I'm just paddling around, just like trying to get an opportunity to get all to get to my feet.

And you know, in a couple of years later, we played an LPG event in Hawaii, got my tape back, because we paddled out to like 10 news or something in Waikiki, she kind of got for a firsthand glimpse of how hard it was to win at a surf, but I do think that like it's similar in that respect, right?

You almost do, you have to like earn your, your, like, right? to things and I think golf at least is semi-accessible at times because you could just go to a dragon, but like to go out to a golf course and to play with other people it's pretty daunting and I think um I think for a long time I didn't really appreciate enough people who started golf late in life because I was so young that I don't remember this beginning stage of you know having to put in four or five years to get good enough to feel confident to actually go out to a golf course and play but having done that on like the surf side I'm like okay now when I go to the diving range and I see some you know 30-something year old woman learning for the first time I'm like I understand you know yeah interesting I guess golf is quite similar to surfing and in that way especially you think it might take you four hours to play 18 holes but each shot only lasts

Michael Frampton

what half a second?

Tiffany Joh

Yeah.

Michael Frampton

So there's actually not that much golf.

Tiffany Joh

It's yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of walking. It's a lot of like, hunting and drinking for some people. But I, uh, it's just, and it's a small surfing.

I'm like, how much time did I actually spend surfing? Like 40 seconds today? Like I think most of it was just sitting there and like, and I do think the other reason why it kind of attracts the same personality, though, is it's kind of whatever you want to get out of it, right?

So it can be super introspective and personal and it could also be really, really social. And I think any given time, depending on your mood or, you know, at what point in your life you are, like, it can change, right?

So I mean, there were times when, uh, I played golf only because I was trying to get better. And I was just trying to like improve my game.

I had no desire to, you know, I had no desire to like interact with other people and I was just in my own little cocoon.

And then there's other times where I don't even care about any of the technique or getting better. I just want to go and walk around a golf course for four hours with my buddies and have a good time.

I think surfing to me is really similar where sometimes I just want to power a lot of well and I want to like try to find a little shoulder to myself and not talk to anyone and I want it to be really personal.

And then there's other times where I just want to be out in the water with a bunch of my buddies or any, in my case these days like sitting in the parking lot drinking coffee and looking at the waves.

But there's something like that can be inherently really social or really personal depending on what you're looking for that day.

Michael Frampton

Yeah, that's a great golf surfing analogy. So true. Yeah. I certainly have gone through stages where I'm so focused on getting better and then other times, you know, it's Lucy Goosey and just going with the flow.

Oh, I think both of those types of sessions inform each other. Have you gone through stages like that when surfing, like have you had any surf coaching done at all?

Tiffany Joh

So I actually, well, this is another guest on your pod, Ruhill has this surf retreat called surf simply, and the second year I was surfing, that was my, you know, off season trip, and he just completely, him and his coaching staff are insanely amazing in everything they do.

They're like, absolutely unicorn, but I mean, they just blew my mind with like the technical aspect of it, and you know, they film everything, they do like lectures, and as much as I think on the surface, I maybe act like, you know, very mellow, and I don't really care about the technique.

Like, at my core, I still want to get as good as I can, regardless of what level I end up being at.

So that actually is really motivational. because I ended up making a couple friends locally and this is our big COVID activity is we would you know since no one was really working so we would go to the beach and we would trade off at a camera I would put on a tripod and so everyone would do like 20 minutes at the camera and then afterwards I mean not that we really even knew what we were looking for but we kind of had an idea of what looks good and what looks bad and so afterwards we would grab a couple of rectus burritos and we kind of laugh at each other's lifestyles and then and then also try to start to critique each other like why you know we bogged a rail here or why like this you know we didn't you know completely cut back and and doing that it was so helpful because it's kind of listening to your voice on an answering machine it's never quite what you think it is really much so it was really helpful because in golf we talk a lot about feel versus real so feel you know with everything you do if you're trying to make some kind of change in your golf swing

You have to exaggerate it because when you bring it up to full speed, it's not going to be as much because your body wants to keep doing the same thing it's been doing.

And then when you get into competition, you're automatically going to revert back to what you're used to doing. And so if you look at some of the PGA Tor and LPG for guys and gals, when they're like doing their practice wing, it looks grotesque.

Because they're trying to exaggerate a specific movement because they know once I speed it up. And I think that's a lot of what I learned with the coaching at Sir Simply and then also building ourselves and then watching it back later.

Because if you watch it right afterwards, you kind of have an idea of like, this is what it felt like.

It felt like I cut back all the way to the white water and then you look at it and you're like, but I didn't.

So maybe the next time I have to really exaggerate that. And I think that's one of the things that Ru and his team taught me is you got to do something like too much.

You got to over. do it and then kind of find the middle ground from there. Um, and that was just like so helpful to me.

Um, as I, you know, trying to figure out to do this whole surfing thing.

Michael Frampton

Yeah, no, that's a great point. I like that. Um, do you remember Happy Gilmore?

Tiffany Joh

Yeah. Chubs? Yep.

Michael Frampton

It's all in the hips.

Tiffany Joh

Is that true? Yes. Okay. And I had no idea, but surfing is true.

Michael Frampton

Yeah. The center, the center of gravity, center of mass, I should say.

Tiffany Joh

Yeah. I think anything where you're kind of mixing up like weight shift and rotation, like hips have got to have a really big part of it.

Michael Frampton

Yeah. I see a lot of similarities between, um, good surfing technique and good golf technique. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. And, uh, it's certainly something notice looking at you Instagram. and the way you surf you, you don't really have a post dance, which is great.

And that might be just because you're so used to, because a golf swing stance is quite an upright stance.

Tiffany Joh

Yeah. Well, I, you know, I think like if you look at anything athletically, I kind of never understood like the really side on like, I think you call it tacoing because you're like you're bent over and folded over.

Because like in golf, you're always like the biggest thing is regardless of what's going on here, you're really engaging with your target.

And so if you're not kind of squared off looking at your target, then like I've seen, you know, two types of golfers, the ones that maybe everything looks messed up from here, but they're always like looking out towards like the flag or the fairway or whatever they're hitting to.

And I'm like, that guy's got a chance, you know? but the one who has like complete blinders on and he's just looking at the golf ball and isn't really even connected to his target at all.

mean that guy, have no idea when that golf ball is going. Regardless of what's happening technique-wise with his golf swing, I actually have a funny story, another golfster parallel.

So I was playing the Scottish Open and this was maybe, I think this was maybe like the best round I ever had when I was playing on tour, but at the time I was kind of struggling with my putting and so my putting coach who's this Canadian guy came out to the Scottish Open and he's looking at my stroke and looking at the way I was reading everything and he was like, you know, everything looks really solid.

You just look really disconnected from the target and so he was kind of giving me all these like metaphors and sports of people like being really engaged with their targets, free car drivers and all that stuff and I was like none of these are landing and he's like, okay, sir, for a girl.

He's like, who's your favorite surfer in the world? And I was like, ah! It's got to be step he'll more like she's amazing and he's like okay Give me a second and he goes on Google images and he pulled up this image of her doing like a backside backside bottom turn And she's looking up at the lip and everything is like looking up at that lip And he's like it doesn't if you're like so focused on what's going on right in front of you And you forget about the target you're going to like he's like you don't stand a chance And so we ended up doing a lot of like visualization stuff where we took you know like a chalk pen and we you know drew out all these dots on the green and then I would basically just like roll balls over them and Didn't hit a ton of cuts I was just kind of doing a lot of visualization stuff and then went out the next day and just putted out of my mind Like had one of the best putting grounds in my life And that's like I don't know if it was like you know a direct result of that, but I do think it made a really big impact on me to like To like regardless of what I'm doing to like never forget where the target

Michael Frampton

good is and where I'm going. Yeah. So when you actually hit the ball, are you looking at the ball in that moment?

Tiffany Joh

So yeah, I think like when you take it away, like you are kind of looking at it, but you're not really focused on it.

You're just trying to swing. But there are a lot of professional golfers who when they putt don't look at the ball and they look at the whole because like the stroke is so short.

Like surely you're not going to miss the ball with the stroke. That's like a foot long. So there's a lot of people who when they really start to struggle with like gauging the speed or how hard they have to hit it or something like that, then they try to get themselves as target oriented as possible.

Michael Frampton

Interesting. So as part of that, do you sort of open up your peripheral vision?

Tiffany Joh

Yeah, so I think for me when I putt like my eyes are kind of

Michael Frampton

going towards the ball but I'm actually looking at a spot a little bit in front and I'm just trying to roll the ball over that spot because you know like when you're putting you're reading a lot of break so you're kind of trying to figure out like is this gonna break right is we gonna break left another thing that's kind of like surfing and then I like to kind of like take a spot and roll it over that spot but also kind of keeping in mind like where the hole is as well um so I'm I look like I'm looking at the ball but I'm actually not really focusing there interesting hmm so I guess it's kind of like um have you ever learned to juggle uh not really but I think I know you don't look you don't look at your hands right you kind of look up and you're you should see where the ball is coming and you should sort of know where your hand is and where the ball is going to be it makes me think that's sort of that sort of principle so you you have quite a

You have a sharp awareness of where the ball is and where the club is without necessarily looking directly at it.

Tiffany Joh

Right.

Michael Frampton

And that's, is that something that's purposely developed or does that just sort of happen over time with hours on the course?

Tiffany Joh

I think just intuitively with time, and I think a lot of it is just, you know, you say a lot something and then you try to grasp that straw to figure out what else I'm going to work.

I'm sure at some point people spiral will not be like, where am I looking? Maybe I should try looking somewhere else.

So I do think, and I don't think, you know, everyone is like that. I'm sure there are some people that do you like to look at a spot on the ball and then everything else is secondary, but that's just kind of where I felt like I've had it the most effectively.

Just because I think if I just focus on the ball, I get too wrapped up in what my stroke is doing.

And especially in putting like the stroke is so overrated. like anyone with a little bit of athleticism should be able to hit a ball like six inches on mine.

that's all you really need to do with a pot.

Michael Frampton

So that makes it makes a lot of sense. It really does. Even just the fact of it just purposely opening up your peripheral vision is actually a very calming thing to do.

So it calms your nervous system down. Did you do any specific visual training like eye exercises?

Tiffany Joh

No, a lot of it was like we'd use the chalk pen to like put out dots and then we would take like a straight one and do some dots along the line.

And then we would do like a big right to left your and a left to right because I mean 99% of putting is just matching up your line in your speed because it can be different.

mean you can make a 8-foot put on like five different lines depending on how hard it you hit it, like you can kind of drip and dye something in or you can kind of hammer it and like not put as much break.

So a lot of it was kind of that like some green reading exercises. So but yeah.

Michael Frampton

If what's your biggest fear and golf?

Tiffany Joh

My biggest fear and golf. That's a good question. think maybe like this is slightly irrational but I was playing in the British Open one year and a girl I was playing with hit a volunteer with a drive like in the head and we heard it from like 250 yards away and there was blood everywhere and he ended up being fine and he was actually like oh yeah I like my head bumped it over there and like his head was bleeding and he had a towel to it and he apparently I checked on him that night and he came back the next day to volunteer again but like that I think

think that scares me so much. you know, professional golf, when there's a lot of spectators, they kind of line the fairways.

So it looks very narrow. And it looks like if you hit it off line, that you could kill someone.

And I think that's definitely my biggest fear involved.

Michael Frampton

What's your biggest fear in surfing?

Tiffany Joh

I don't know. I mean, I'm not like a fearless surfer by any like I don't like going out in big or tough condition.

I do think there was one. So we live really close to the Mexican border. So my friend and I, my friend, Kat and I like to drive down and surf like Rosarito and stuff.

it's not like super safe. Like there's no life guards or anything. And there was one day and this was when I was early on in my surfing career and like didn't have any ocean knowledge at all where it was kind of

thing you know next to this cliff and it was like super high tide and it was a ton of swell and like some of the fishermen had put out all these lobster tracks and I wiped out on a wave and I got my foot like tangled in the rope around the lobster trap and I think that's maybe the most scared I've ever been in the water but um since then I've learned I've learned not to go out at super high tide with a ton of swell if the waves are breaking right against the cliffs yeah huh if you could only play golf with one club what is that club one club am I like just for enjoyment or am I trying to shoot a good score if there's a different answer to both those versions that I'm interested to hear both well I love putting it's my favorite part of the game like I love you know all the intricacies of it and stuff so

If there was only one part of the game I could do, I would just cut. But I think if I was trying to shoot a good score, I would probably take like a seven iron because I feel like I could hit pretty much any shot I need to with that.

And you can always put with it too.

Michael Frampton

Yep. Okay. What's your favorite surfboard?

Tiffany Joh

So, um, much like golf, I'm not someone that owns like a ton of boards. Um, have three, I have like a nine four nose writer, I have like a eight to egg and I just got like a like a seven to egg.

Right now it's the eight to egg. Um, it's like a, it's a jock haul who's like a local shaper in San Diego.

Um, when I actually bought the longboard on Craigslist when I first got into surfing and that was a Josh haul and I loved it so much and I contacted Josh to get the egg shape.

And he was asking me all these questions, like, you know, do you want to type in, do you like speed egg and.

I was like, I don't know. But I want it to be the purple that the exit emoji is. And so that's what I'm to go on.

Michael Frampton

Oh, shout out to Josh. Yeah, I've got one of his boards.

Tiffany Joh

It's one of my favorite boards. Love it.

Michael Frampton

Yeah, that's a good approach, though. had just had three boards. I mean, so many surfers just own too many boards and make it too complicated.

Tiffany Joh

Yeah, and I think even with the board, I'm sure if you're really, really good, you can kind of sense all the intricacies when you go surf.

But for me, I need like a board when it's really small, like a board when it's like super fun.

And then, you know, a board where I'm like, all right, if I'm going to have to, you know, get out there and I need to get out test the light water, like this is going to help me without getting things washed up.

Like that's the only way I make my choice.

Michael Frampton

How many sets of clubs do you have?

Tiffany Joh

And so... Well, I probably have, I mean, I've given away a ton of them because I'm not, I'm not a hoarder or anything, but I think I've probably had maybe 30 sets of clubs in my lifetime.

I've probably given away like 15 to 20 of them. But I think for me, it's not like, I don't get, I don't replace full sets.

I'll have like, like 15 putters and then like, you know, 30 drivers. Like, I'm kind of replacing them one by one in the bag, depending on, um, sometimes it's, I would keep, you know, you're only allowed to use 14 clubs during a tournament, but I would keep 16 and based on what kind of golf course we're playing, I would kind of switch out clubs.

But, so I end up having like 100 wedges because, you know, a lot of that is very turf dependent.

Michael Frampton

Okay. Do, is that common? Do some people go overboard with, with clubs that have like, multiple different sets for different courses and

and this commitment at disadvantage?

Tiffany Joh

I think most people keep the iron pretty much the same. But yeah, with wedges, especially on the professional level, people are switching those out a lot.

Also with wedges because it's so skin dependent, you always want fresh grooves. wedges I was actually probably replacing at least once a month.

Then the driver pretty much any time a company came out with a new model I was asking for to try one, because driver technology is changing so quickly that it actually does make a difference if you have the latest and greatest model in your bag.

But then cutting is so intuitive and field-based. You can put with the same putter your entire life. So I think I've only put with maybe three or four different putters in my career in competition.

So wedges I probably have. I mean, we use them as like door stops and like we use them to like...

You know, what changed the bets on the air conditioner and stuff.

Michael Frampton

Funny. Have you ever been to a wave pool yet?

Tiffany Joh

I haven't. I'm not sure I would like it. I think I would feel a lot of pressure.

Michael Frampton

You'd be used to the pressure though.

Tiffany Joh

Maybe. But I would just, I think I have a feeling that I did have a friend actually who used to work first or simply and, you know, they did a wave pool kit that she was saying.

She played volleyball at the college club. So she was used to like pressure and competition and she said that hours leading up to like going to the wave pool, she was, she felt like she was out of meat.

Michael Frampton

She was like, it was just the tension was just. Yeah. suppose everyone's watching and it's your turn. Yeah. But pressure makes diamonds, they say.

Tiffany Joh

And I do kind of like the idea that if you miss it, there's someone that can pick it up.

Like it never goes wasted. Right. There's always like a second or whatever. person who could like pick up whatever you missed.

that makes me feel a little bit better.

Michael Frampton

Yeah, it's kind of like the driving range for surfers. Yeah. Yeah, and they're popping up everywhere. So yeah, I think it's going to change surfing for the, well, maybe for the bed and we'll see.

All right, well, Tif, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. It's awesome. Um, if there was one, if there was one piece of surfing advice, you could leave listeners with what would there be?

Tiffany Joh

Um, I think just going back to consistency over intensity. Um, I wish I could say, I know everyone says like the best or from the water is having the most fun, but the person having the most fun is like probably the person who's getting better and seeing improvement and being encouraged.

um, I'm going to go with consistency over intensity, like put it in 20, 30 minutes consistently, rather. then, you know, five hours every other time.

Michael Frampton

Yeah, no, I liked it. I think there's a lot of truth to that saying, you know, the best surface having the most fun.

Obviously, you know, outside of competition surfing, because that's different. I don't think surfing is even a sport.

Tiffany Joh

Sometimes I don't think so either. Yeah, more of a sport than golf, though.

Michael Frampton

Well, yeah. Yeah, if you can, if you get a sport, you can do in your pajamas with a cigarette hanging out of your mouth.

Tiffany Joh

Maybe it's not a sport and a beer in one hand.

Michael Frampton

Yeah. Exactly. I will tip.

Tiffany Joh

What's your Instagram? So people can follow along. So my Instagram is tip Joe T I F F J O H.

It's like 90% tacos, but during that, that would be interesting to follow.

Michael Frampton

All right. Cool. I will have links to that in the show notes.

Tiffany Joh

Again, thank you so much for taking the time. Awesome.

Michael Frampton

Thank you.

107 The Parallels of Surfing and Golf: Tiffany Joh’s Insights on Golf, Surfing, and Finding Flow

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

What does it take to master surfing when you start late, face fear, and dive into the complexities of surf culture?

In this episode, Silas shares his inspiring story of committing to surfing at 19 and navigating the highs and lows of his journey. From mastering line-up politics to dealing with fear and embracing dry-land training, Silas offers a refreshing perspective on what it means to pursue passion while staying grounded in the realities of surf culture. If you’re looking to improve your skills or gain insight into the unwritten rules of the surf world, this episode is packed with practical tools and honest wisdom.

• Learn how to approach line-up politics and navigate the culture shock of the surf world with respect and confidence.

• Discover the benefits of dry-land training, video analysis, and unconventional balance exercises to improve your surfing skills.

• Get actionable tips on conquering fear, entering a flow state, and even surfing through chandelier barrels with your eyes closed.

Take your surfing skills and understanding of the surf culture to the next level—listen now!

Follow Silas on Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/surfendipitous

Key Points

• Silas expresses his determination to pursue surfing despite starting late, inspired by Kelly Slater's career longevity.

• Silas started surfing again at age 19 after a period of personal struggles and found passion and intention in the sport.

• Silas uses social media to document his surfing journey, aiming for opportunities rather than a specific sponsorship.

• Silas discusses the challenges of overcoming fear in surfing, emphasizing the importance of being present and in the moment.

• Silas mentions the role of flow state in surfing performance and how it can be achieved through the right level of challenge.

• Silas plans to continue his surfing journey in the South Island of New Zealand, relying on spontaneous decisions and environmental responses.

• Silas shares his Instagram handle, SurfEndipitous, inviting listeners to follow his surfing journey. 

Outline

Silas' Surfing Journey and Inspiration

• Silas began surfing at the age of four but stopped after a bad experience until they rediscovered it at 12 during a family vacation to Hawaii.

• Silas' dream since age 12 was to become a professional surfer and marry a Hawaiian.

• At 18, after completing cooking school, Silas moved to Tofino and started surfing daily, progressing from a soft top to a hard top surfboard.

• Silas has been posting a surfing video every day on Instagram for 73 days with the goal of getting sponsored.

• Silas draws inspiration from Kelly Slater and aims to improve continuously, regardless of the time it takes.

Overcoming Personal Challenges

• Silas faced significant personal challenges growing up, including a mentally ill stepfather and a complex family situation.

• Despite these challenges, Silas found motivation and drive in surfing, viewing it as a positive outlet and a way to channel their experiences into something constructive.

Social Media and Sponsorship Goals

• Silas uses social media as a platform to share their surfing journey and attract potential sponsorships, though they are open to various forms of support and opportunities.

• Michael mentions Gravey, a popular surfer who gained fame and income through social media despite not being a top-tier pro shortboarder.

Training and Improvement Techniques

• Silas has benefited from having a surf coach and using video footage to analyze and improve their technique.

• Michael suggests various training methods including dry land training, body awareness exercises, and vision training to enhance surfing skills.

• Silas practices pop-up on dry land and is considering trying to surf goofy foot based on feedback from a popular video.

Surfing Culture and Etiquette

• Silas discusses the challenges of navigating surf culture and lineup politics, emphasizing the importance of being respectful and interactive in the water.

• Michael advises being friendly and acknowledging others in the lineup, even if they do not reciprocate, and highlights the importance of proving oneself as a respectful and skilled surfer over time.

Dealing with Fear in Surfing

• Silas identifies fear as a significant barrier to improvement in surfing, particularly the moment of committing to catch a wave.

• They suggest being present in the moment and not letting fear dictate actions as a way to overcome it.

• Michael discusses the concept of flow state and how it can be achieved through the right level of challenge and practice.

Future Plans and Aspirations

• Silas plans to travel to the South Island of New Zealand, specifically Dunedin and the Catlins, without a set job, embracing a spontaneous and adventurous approach to life.

• Silas' Instagram handle is Serfandipetus, a play on the word 'serendipity' and their love for surfing.

Transcription

Silas Gnarside
I understand the situation, I get it, but I don't think that means that I just shouldn't try because... And I think Kelly Slater is like super inspirational for me because, you know, he's still doing that at 50. And I figured, like, even if it takes me 10, 15 years, like I'm here for it, you know? And to be able to share that and be able to, like, you know, look back through all the progress is going to be phenomenal. There's no other thing in my life that drives me in that way, you know, that I've had this like such an intention for. I think that's probably the hardest thing about surfing is shutting the fear off, hey.

Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton. That is a couple of quotes from today's guest, Silas. And as you can tell by the episode title, Silas has a bold surfing goal. Brazen! Audacious. Borderline absurd, some may say, but he brings a lot of drive and a deeper motivation, fueled by a very strong sense of self-belief. And when I came across his story and his Instagram profile, his passion reminded me of my early surfing journey, and I reached out. Turns out he's in New Zealand. Timing was perfect, we met up, and dove into his backstory, some of the deeper motivations driving him, lots of the stuff that he's had to overcome—fear in the water, negotiating and navigating surf culture and lineup politics. The ocean is a brutal teacher and surf culture can be downright cutthroat. So in today's episode we'll hear about not only Silas's experiences with all of that and his goals of getting better, but, you know, a lot of tips on how to overcome a lot of these challenges as well, of course. Silas' bold and brazen goals are certainly on some level at least relatable to you, the listeners to this episode, and it's going to be interesting just to see how far he can take his surfing. Of course, it’ll be interesting to see if he sticks with it, given the barriers to getting better at surfing are not small, as we all know. But keep an eye on his Instagram. You know, Silas can be the guinea pig. Let's see what we can learn from his journey. But for now... Let's meet Silas. When did you start surfing?

Silas Gnarside
Not until about two and a half years ago. Okay. Yeah. So one of my earliest memories with my mom is a fight we had because she took me surfing and I got up on a wave and she saw how lit up I was and how much I had just like... and maybe she hadn't seen that with other things because I was doing sports my whole life, all sorts of different sports.

Michael Frampton
Where were you and why surfing?

Silas Gnarside
And when I fell and I got the salt water in my mouth and the tumbling of the wave, I did not want to do it anymore. I was out. I was like, no, get me out of here. And she wanted to make me keep doing it because she saw how much I enjoyed it. And I was like, no. And it was this like huge fight that I'll probably remember for the rest of my life. And then I didn't touch it again until I was 12. We went on a family vacation to Hawaii. So... and then, yeah, when I was 12, we went on a family vacation to Hawaii and I did a lesson there and like really chill waves.

Michael Frampton
How old were you when the first thing happened? Four.

Silas Gnarside
Four, okay, wow. Yeah. And I like fell in love with it all over again. Like it was like I had completely forgotten that was, you know... and so I decided at the age of 12 that my dream was to become a professional surfer and marry a Hawaiian. And so, yeah, that's loosely what we're going for in some sense, you know.

Michael Frampton
Well, you made that decision when you were 12. But you're not 14 now. So what happened between 12 and...?

Silas Gnarside
A lot. A lot of stuff happened, yeah. I went through some not-so-great things in my home growing up and I had a lot of responsibility from a very early age. And I think when really bad things happen, it really stunts your ability in most aspects of your life, you know? You kind of forget, get lost in the hurt, and forget about the things that you love. Yeah. Especially at an early age, I think it's kind of hard to navigate your way through that without much experience, you know? So yeah, I guess I just kind of got caught up in what was going on. And I was busy kind of providing opposed to just doing what I wanted to do and sticking true to that. And then when I was 14, I surfed again in Hawaii and that kind of, again, almost got there, but not really. And then when I was finishing my cooking school to become a chef, my instructor was like, "Why don't you go move to Tofino and go surfing?" And he didn't know that I had surfed or, you know, anything. He just said it and this light was like switched on in my head. And I was like, my God, I have to do this.

Michael Frampton
So how old were you when this happened?

Silas Gnarside
19.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, okay.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah, like 18, 19. And so as soon as I was done my course—part of the requirements for the course is to work, I don't know, I think it's like 600 hours in the industry—so I went and got a job in Tofino, which is a surfing town. And at this five-star resort that was like right on the beach, they had staff accommodations. So, like, two-minute walk to the beach. And yeah, I just got after it. Like, I started charging. I bought like a nine-foot soft top and like a shitty wetsuit. And I just started going out like past the break. Like I had no experience really besides the one or two times I'd done it when I was younger. And I just started figuring it out. Like I didn't really, like, you know, have somebody like showing me the ropes. It was like, I was so eager and so keen and it was so outside of my comfort zone and I didn't care. Like, and it's like a passion that I have that I don't have with anything else. Like there's no other thing in my life that drives me in that way, you know, that I've had this like such an intention for, feels like, you know. And from there, yeah, I just got better and better because I was going like every day. And then it got to the point where I'd gotten a hard top. I think it was like a seven-two and I see people doing turns and stuff. And I like, I know I want to get there, but I have no idea. And that was when I got a surfing coach because I was like, I could consistently catch green waves and trim them nicely and ride them. And yeah.

Michael Frampton
Okay, so you're 19 when you rediscovered surfing and committed to it. And so you're 21 now?

Silas Gnarside
22.

Michael Frampton
22 now, okay. So I'd be remiss if we skipped past that sore point we touched on. Did you lose a parent or something at 12?

Silas Gnarside
No. So my stepdad, he was quite a mentally ill person. I don't hold any anger or hate towards him because he genuinely is like... he's in his own world. You know, he's not capable of... but he was my dad growing up. Like he met my mom when I was two and he raised me like he was my dad. Yeah. And they were married for 10 years. They had three kids together and all three of my siblings sort of have some sort of disability. And I didn't necessarily. And I received a lot of like hate from him without knowing why, you know? Like it was like, because most of the time he was like the supportive, loving father. And then other times he would be like... I felt excluded all the time because I wasn't his kid or whatever. But they didn't even tell me until I was 12. So up until that point, I had thought that he was my real dad. And then they kind of broke it to me because, you know, I'm a little bit darker than my siblings. You know, I look different. And he would like Dall-E the N-word when I was like growing up to like try and make me feel bad about being different. And like, I don't even know why I'm different, you know? So it was like always this, yeah, really not a nice game to play really. But they ended up splitting up and my younger brother—I have five siblings now—the one after me, he kind of got caught in the middle of it because it is actually his dad. And my stepdad kind of like twisted him up and really messed his head up and just kind of like alienated him. And yeah, so... and yeah, my brother went to rehab like the week that I left for New Zealand. So yeah, and it's been a struggle. And yeah, like that's my baby brother, you know? I had to watch him go through that. And I'd say that was probably the hardest thing about all of it was that there was nothing I could do. Like I just had... I was helpless. I just had to watch it happen and there was nothing I could do. It was just the way it was. And it was really hard to come to terms with that and work through that mentally. And, you know, of course there's lots of... I could go on and on about the crazy shit that happened, but that's kind of the gist. And yeah. But like I know my birth dad now. I met him after. And yeah, we're really good friends and we've supported each other a lot since we've met and made each other better. You know, we’re both very blunt people. And like even though he didn't raise me, we're like the same person. And it's so crazy to see, like genetically, because we're so similar. And I never knew him my whole life, but like when I met him, I was like, there is somebody else that's like pretty similar to me out there. Because I don't experience it a lot. It's, yeah, like a genuine good connection that I find quite rarely. Yeah. So to find that with my dad through... but like in more of a mutual kind of way opposed to like, he's my dad and I'm his son kind of thing, you know? Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Well, thanks for sharing that. Yeah. It's not always easy. Yeah. Like a little bit of experience. And my boys, their mother was quite mentally ill before she passed away. So I had to deal with her and that sort of thing. My kids sort of went through, sounds like something a little bit similar to you, but different, but yeah, it's not easy, but it does.

Silas Gnarside
I'm so happy. Like I wouldn't trade my life or my experiences for anything. Cause like I'll never ever be in as bad of a place as I was, you know? And I experienced that at an early age and that's like done. It's like only forward, you know? Kind of feels like because yeah, it can't get much worse than that.

Michael Frampton
I think it's a common thread amongst a lot of great people is they have a traumatic childhood often. And it can go either way, where you end up under a bridge with a needle in your arm or you can become one of the best in the world at something. Yeah. And it looks like you've chosen the right path and hopefully your brother sticks with rehab and finds his way as well. Yeah.

Silas Gnarside
And I've offered him that arm as well. Like when you're serious and you wanna come over here wherever I am and work, put your head down, like partying and like being a hooligan. I want that for you and I'm here for that. But until you're willing to take that seriously, I can't have you coming over here and like messing up what I have going for myself, you know? And it's really hard to create that boundary as well.

Michael Frampton
Well, it's like those experiences can light fires in people and obviously it's lit a surfing fire in...

Silas Gnarside
You. And he sees it too. And he's like, you know, he's... yeah, he sees it. And I think it kind of inspires him a little bit, you know? He's always like, man, I wanna be out there, you know? Like, yeah, so, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Cool. And okay, so that, and then you rediscovered surfing at 19. You've stuck with it since. And then I came across you via Instagram. And it was, correct me if I'm wrong, but posting a surfing video every day until I'm sponsored. And that started about 70 days ago, was it?

Silas Gnarside
73 days ago.

Michael Frampton
73 days ago. Okay. And we're two days before Christmas in December, 2024. And so what happened 73-ish days ago? Like what, why?

Silas Gnarside
Yeah, I've struggled on and off with social media. I see it as like a negative thing and I don't see it as something that's super beneficial and I've wasted a lot of time on it. And I kind of had a moment where I like redownloaded it and was like, you know, kind of like getting into posting stuff again. And I was like, you know, like, what am I doing? You know, like, what's the goal here? Cause I'm not... I hate wasting my time. I really do. Not that I can't relax and enjoy doing nothing, but I don't like spending my time on things I don't think are gonna like, yeah, benefit me. So I just, I wanted to start posting content, but I didn't know what, but I'm surfing every day and I've got this mouth mount for my GoPro. And I know that I want to go in the direction of dedicating myself more and more to surfing and getting better. And I just kind of said, fuck it. I was like, yeah, I'm like, let's do it. Let's see what happens. Like, you know, like I'm just gonna keep going. I don't care if I get to day 1,137, I'll do it. Like, yeah. Okay.

Michael Frampton
So, but what about the surfing side of it? Like, and like, this is such a specific, like until I'm sponsored.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah. Well, I kind of like that it just says that because people automatically assume that I want to be like sponsored by a big company and like in that top tier of surfing. I don't necessarily need that or want that. That's not like the goal for me. But to get sponsored is very broad, you know? And I think it leaves opportunity for a lot of different things, opposed to being like, I just want one thing because I don't even know what that would be at the moment, you know? So I think it's kind of nice to just leave it open-ended and like having people like you, like reach out and be like, you want to go on a podcast? That's not getting sponsored, but that's an opportunity and that's super cool, you know? And I think really anything that I get out of it is, yeah, totally worth it. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I mean, obviously you want to get better at surfing.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And you know, the better you get, the more fun it is. Yeah. It's like a logarithmic thing, you know? The better you get, the more fun it is times 10 and that just keeps going.

Silas Gnarside
And going. Yeah, I make surfing films and like that trip to Tahiti, there was just 10 of us and we were all surfers and videographers, you know? Like I want that. I want to be around people who have that passion for surfing as well as me. And I know that that's like the happiest I could be, you know, living that life. And I've been working part-time the last probably six months and just surfing a lot. And it's been really good, but now I'm super broke and I'm like living in my van and I'm kind of living this like bum surfing lifestyle. And it's what I wanted for my whole time in New Zealand, but I've only gotten a slice of it, but it's been pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty stoked about it. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
It sounds like things are falling into place. Yeah. I think that's what's good about social media is it can be very inspirational. Yeah. Like it does make me... do you follow Gravey at all?

Silas Gnarside
No.

Michael Frampton
No? No. Do you know who he is?

Silas Gnarside
No.

Michael Frampton
No? Okay, so gosh, I don't know his exact story, but I know that he's huge now. Like he's probably one of the most popular surfing...

Silas Gnarside
Okay.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. He's a real stop. He's probably one of the most well-paid surfers. Yeah. And he's a very average surfer. Well, he's good at surfing, but compared to a pro shortboarder, he doesn't come close. And he's made a following and a living out of sharing his journey. I think sobriety is how he sort of replaced drinking with surfing basically. I may be misspeaking, so I don't know his exact story. And he surfs novelty waves. One of his goals was to surf every state in America. So he's surfing lakes and surfing rivers and chasing ferries on jet skis to surf the wakes off these big boats. And then he’s hooking up with Jamie O'Brien, who's another sort of ex-pro who's gone massive with social media. And they're surfing big waves and stuff. So those guys who don't take the pro surfing sponsored route, but end up being essentially sponsored surfers, they actually earn way more money. Yeah. And they don't have to be away from their family all the time, traveling on someone else's pro tennis tour schedule. Whilst it may be unrealistic when people first hear, "I wanna become a sponsored surfer, but I've only really started when I was 19," because you're competing against rich kids that started when they were five, there's so many different ways to look at it.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah. I think because I started late, it's like, I understand the situation. I get it, but I don't think that means that I just shouldn't try. And I think Kelly Slater is super inspirational for me because he's still doing that at 50. And I figured, even if it takes me 10, 15 years, I'm here for it. And to be able to share that and be able to look back through all the progress is gonna be phenomenal.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I don't regret... you don't regret a surf. No. Even if it was a bad surf and something, you'd never regret going surfing. And I think it's a worthy pursuit and it's something that even Kelly Slater himself still wants to get better. And there's people like Skip Fry who are in their 80s who still go surfing every day. If you keep doing it, you can still... it's a lifelong pursuit basically. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you sharing it on social media, it's inspirational. It's gonna be interesting to follow your journey. You've only just started. You get to that point where you've got a certain level of follows and it will sort of... yeah. It will take on a new form, I'm sure.

Silas Gnarside
Even if it doesn't, that's okay. You know, like I don't really have any, I don't know, like expectations or like dead set intentions. I'm just like putting it out there, you know? And seeing what happens. Yeah. Kind of letting it just, instead of trying to like force it in one direction, you know, just like see where it takes me. Yeah. Yeah. Just.

Michael Frampton
Get better at surfing. Yeah. Keep it simple. I like that. Yeah. What's been, what's in the last, since you rediscovered surfing at 19, the last three years, what's been the thing that's helped you the most with surfing? A coach.

Silas Gnarside
For sure. Yeah. Definitely a coach. And even just like video footage. I think those two things are very helpful. But it is interesting starting out because, you know, I feel like I've got to pick apart from what I'm learning, what I want to keep, what style, what's not, you know, and trying to like put all these things together is, yeah, very difficult. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. And what else have you done? Do you do any, do you skateboard? Do you do anything else? No.

Silas Gnarside
I've surfing skated a little bit. But I think it would be debatable on whether or not that's helpful. I'm practicing pop-up on dry land. That's really nice because it can always get better. And that video that got a lot of views, a lot of people thought I was switching, I was surfing switch. Yeah. So they're like, he's just like messing around and like surfing switch. And I was like, no. And they're like, maybe you're a goofy footer. So I haven't tried surfing goofy ever, but I think I might give it a go just because enough people were like, kind of like, yeah, said that about that video. So maybe I'll give it a go because I can't even say that I'm not goofy because I haven't tried it, you know, I just naturally was regular. And I never even thought to like give goofy a chance, you know, yeah.

Michael Frampton
It certainly wouldn't do any harm learning how to do it. No. Which way do you skate?

Silas Gnarside
I skate mongo.

Michael Frampton
No, but which foot forward?

Silas Gnarside
Left.

Michael Frampton
Foot. Left foot forward, okay. And if you were to kick a football or soccer ball, which foot would you use?

Silas Gnarside
Right foot. You're probably a natural footer then. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, I think when people first start surfing, you have a... people sometimes it's called the poo stance. And it's a more sort of, it's a more balanced, safe feeling position. Yeah. And then once your balance and your comfort levels improve in the water, you sort of more, you gradually, your body relaxes and things sort of fall into place and you'd sort of develop your own style. There's a lot of reasons why that happens.

Silas Gnarside
I find that that's actually one of the things I've struggled with the most is my compression and getting down low. And I understand that's a problem that I have and I need to work on, but I still struggle like every time I get in the water to compress properly. Because I feel like I'm like all the way down, like super compressed. And then I see video footage and I'm like, my knees are like a little bit bent. Like it's super difficult for some reason. And maybe it is like a safety thing or I don't know, but it's been hard for me to like, kind of like condition myself to compress.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, what, I mean, from a technical coach's perspective, yeah, you're very... you don't bend at the hips, you bend at the knees a lot. So there's definitely some work to be done in that regard. I mean, gosh, I mean, send an email to someone like Brad Gerlach. He does a program called Wave Ki, which is all about refining your body position and technique on dry land. And ideally it's done in front of a mirror so that you're quite... how does my body feel? What does it look like? Those two things, as you know, when you watch yourself surfing, they're so far apart. I thought I was doing this, but it looks like this and it's heartbreaking. Yeah. It will be for a long time.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah, it is.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. But if you start training in front of a mirror, then the way your body feels and the way it looks, those two things start to line... they start to line up more. Yeah, that's interesting. And it increases your body awareness. It works on very ancient neurological things. Like when we learn to walk, we actually learn by watching other people walk. It's called mirror neurons.

Silas Gnarside
Okay, yeah.

Michael Frampton
So dry land training does work. Yeah, okay. Things like practicing skateboarding using surfing techniques, whilst it gets made fun of a lot and can look a little ridiculous, it does work. Do you know what I mean? Because not only are you working on those positions in front of a mirror, but then you're moving around on an uneven surface like a skateboard. Obviously it's not the same as surfing, but you can kind of mimic surfing style on a skateboard. A lot of coaches swear by it and that's all they use. So that's part of the reason why watching footage and training in front of the mirror helps a lot, because it just increases your body awareness so that you know, like if you were eyeing a barrel and you know it's X amount of size, then you know your body has to compress down and become that size in order to get into it. But if there's a mismatch and you're standing taller than you think you are to fit in the barrel, then the lip's going to hit you in the head and you might not click as to why that happened. Little things like that can make a massive difference. I mean, if I had my time all over again to sort of really attack surfing, I would have spent more time just working on dry land stuff like body awareness, balance, vision.

Silas Gnarside
Slackline. Slackline's good. I like slackline. Slackline? Yeah, slackline's nice. I thought because I could ride a surfboard that slackline should be no problem, you know? Because it seems like maybe simpler balancing on a slackline because it's just there and you just walk on it. And I got on there and I was so frustrated that I couldn't do it. And it took me like a good like two or three weeks of, you know, just every time I walked past it, giving it a go. And the first time that I ever walked, like finished the slackline, was the day I got back from Tahiti. I had surfed Teahupoʻo and I was like, looking at the slackline, I was like, I can fucking do that shit. And I got on there and I smashed it. It felt pretty good. Yeah, that's a good one for balance, I think. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, even just simple things like standing on one foot with your eyes closed. Something that sounds easy.

Silas Gnarside
I heard you can't do it.

Michael Frampton
You might not be able to, but I mean, if Kelly Slater was here and he'd never done that, and you asked him to do it, he'd probably just do it without even... because he's so gifted with his neurological system. It's nothing. You have a vestibular system, which is kind of like a gyroscope in your inner ear. And that tells your brain, am I... is my head level, essentially. It senses movement. You know, am I moving through space while it's happening? But your brain looks at your vision. Where's the horizon? What am I looking at? Am I moving? To help decide whether you're balanced. And all the information coming from your body—your feet, your entire body awareness—that... all of those inputs into the brain: am I balanced? It tells your body, are you balanced? The better each one of those things are, the better the combination of signals as well. You see surfers that surf through barrels like chandeliers. They can't see, but they still come out. So all of a sudden their vision's gone, but they're still balanced because the body is so good with the other sensory inputs. So in training, we can isolate those. For example, standing on one foot with your eyes closed sort of makes you, forces your brain to go... to only use your vestibular system and your body awareness to, "Am I balanced?" And because we rely on vision so much, most people can't even do that.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah, like when, as soon as the water is in your eyes and you can't see, you just give up almost. It's like, that's it. Game over. Yeah, it's powering through. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
But there's so many things like that—if you take a top athlete and get them to do it, they'll just laugh at you. I'm like, "This is easy. Give me something challenging." But most other people just can't do it. So there's a big gap between elite athletes and average athletes. And I think... but the thing is, you can isolate those things and train them now. We know so much about the nervous system and athletic development now. And whilst it's... deadlifting or doing Olympic lifting is so... well, it looks so good on social media, right? Do you know what I mean? It's so, "I wanna be big and strong and lift weights like that" or whatever. But in reality, the pro athletes, they aren't doing much of that. They're actually doing a lot of other stuff and they're naturally gifted in other ways. So you're actually better off, if you're really serious about becoming a better athlete, you're better off working on things like balance and body awareness, even the speed at which your eyes move from there to there, for example. Like if I'm looking down, I look what's in front of me, what's happening down there. If your eyes can literally move from looking down the line, see what that wave's doing to right in front of you, twice as fast and then back and then over there than anyone else, you're taking in more information than other surfers. You're reading the wave on a more detailed level simply because your vision's better. And you make better decisions, time slows down, your body relaxes because you understand your environment more. I mean, it's things like... even average surfers are doing a lot of big wave breath-holding training. Even if they don't have the intention of surfing big waves, the fact that the brain knows that you're comfortable with being underwater for a certain amount of time—every time you go surfing from then on, from that training—you're just so much calmer, you're more relaxed because you're not subconsciously scared of drowning as much. Yeah. Little things like that. So this... anyway, I could go on and on. It's like.

Silas Gnarside
I've heard it before, like stacking the confidence, you know, like proving to yourself what you can do that's gonna help you out there. Yeah. And just collecting them, as many as you can, yeah. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Point is there's so much you can do because obviously with surfing, you're limited to there being good waves and sunlight and time off work to go surfing. Yeah. But there's so many other things you can do to get better at surfing, not necessarily directly from a skill perspective, but in terms of increasing the way your body works, your body awareness, your strength, and all those... and just getting better at other sports.

Silas Gnarside
Things aren't limited to surfing either. Exactly. So it's win? Yes. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
You find a lot of athletes, they do a lot of other sports as well. And they're always busy, you know, pro surfing, and they're at the golf course or they're playing table tennis or they're doing something else. No.

Silas Gnarside
I played a lot of sports. I did ice hockey for like eight years, did soccer, baseball, American football. Yeah. Yeah. I was always playing sports. That was something I was super lucky to have growing up because I just naturally was fit growing up. You know, it was never an issue.

Michael Frampton
Do you still play any?

Silas Gnarside
No.

Michael Frampton
Just surfing?

Silas Gnarside
Just surfing. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah, it takes the cake for sure.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Once you've got the bug.

Silas Gnarside
It's over. Yeah. I find one of the hardest things with surfing for me is the people. I just like, I wanna go out there and I don't wanna interact, but I want to be interactive enough to be respectful. And like, you know, like I'm not out there to just be the silent asshole who's like, you know, like lurking around. I just, I don't, I'm not there for that, you know? And it happens naturally. And when it does, it's great. But most of the time I'm not like going out with the intention of chit-chatting with somebody for 15 minutes while a bunch of waves go by, you know? I'm like, go. And I'm trying to paddle. And especially at a place like Manu where it's just so busy and there's so many people, you gotta be on, you gotta just go for everything and pick your moments and yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's... I think a lot of newbies to surfing find that culture shock quite strange. Yeah. But it makes sense. Like, because as a surfing coach, coaching new beginners, it's one thing you have to deal with a lot because they just sort of... especially if you want to go out and surf in a crowded lineup and get waves and not be ostracized for it or... my advice is always be friendly to everyone, but don't expect them to be friendly back.

Silas Gnarside
Whatever. Yeah, that's a good way to go about it.

Michael Frampton
So acknowledge people. You might just give them a nod and they might not even look at you. You can't judge that person on that because they might have been surfing for 20 years every day and that's their one hour a day where they don't want to talk to anyone. They just want to focus on surfing. That's their life, that's their art form. And then when you meet them in the car park, they're the nicest guy ever. But they might... as soon as they put a wetsuit on, so there can be exaggerated mismatches like that in...

Silas Gnarside
Surfing. And I think I've definitely... I don't know. I notice it in my life as well. There's just some times where I draw negative attention from somebody and it's never out of a place where I intend to do so. It's always kind of like a... just like a weird, like one-off kind of thing. But I've, yeah, I've definitely pissed some people off in the lineup for sure. I had a dude in Kuaotunu, he tried to like punch me in the water. And I've never experienced anything like that before. In Tofino, it's mostly beach break, so it's pretty spread out. And there's only a handful of like, you know, good surfing. So coming to New Zealand and surfing my first point break with, you know, 40 people and, you know, at least half of them are really good or like, you know, pretty decent, it was, yeah, super challenging. Like facing the fear of surfing over shallow, you know, rocks and dodging 40 people is a very huge leap from the comfort of the beach break where I come from, because there I knew the beach so good and I'd surfed it so many times. I could go out in like a 12 to 14 foot storm swell by myself and I know I'm gonna be okay. But here it's just like it's a whole different ball game and I kind of did get shocked by it quite a bit. It was almost discouraging. Almost. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
That's almost... surfers don't want you to be there because waves are a limited resource. However, having said that, if you prove to them that you can be respectful and that you are in it for the right reasons and that you can share waves, that person who was an absolute twat the first few times they saw you... it might take a year, literally, of you surfing with them every day, they're not even looking at you. And then one day, they'll just... they'll acknowledge you one day and then you might end up being best friends. But it's sort of like... especially the older surfers, because surfing used to be... gosh, even 10 years ago, the wetsuits weren't even that great. Fifteen years ago, the wetsuits weren't that great. And there was no forecasting. Do you know what I mean?

Silas Gnarside
I don't.

Michael Frampton
Like forecasting.

Silas Gnarside
I don't like forecasting at all. I don't like the cams. I don't like the forecast. Because it's like, if you don't have cams and you don't look at the forecast and you just go look for yourself, even if it's shitty, you're probably gonna get in the water, opposed to looking on your camera on your phone and being like, it doesn't look perfect, I'm not gonna go.

Michael Frampton
If you're serious about getting better, you'd surf every day in all conditions. And some of the best surfers come from parts of the world where the waves are terrible. Kelly Slater comes from Florida.

Silas Gnarside
There's a kid that I surf with in Rags. His name's DeMellon. That's his nickname. And we're usually the only two people out when there's a shitty wind swell and nobody else is in the water. And I'll be out by myself and then he'll paddle out or vice versa. And it's funny, because it's usually him. Like on those shitty days when everybody's like, yeah, whatever. Yeah, it's usually me and him out there. It's pretty nice. I love surfing shitty swell and then going into work and everybody's like, you surfed? I'm like, yeah. Like how was it? I was like, it's awesome. Like what do you mean? Like, yeah. And they're like, it's supposed to be bad today. Like, yeah. Waves are waves, you know? There's work to be done there. There's improvements to be made. Yeah, always. And I understand that it all comes down to time in the water too. Yes. The more time you spend in the water, the faster you can improve. So I definitely live by that in my routine and everything, for sure. Even on just like half-foot days, borrow a friend's longboard and go and skim. You know, like, yeah. I was trying to always, because.

Michael Frampton
Always. You never regret a surf. Yeah. No, you're right. You cannot beat time in the water just...

Silas Gnarside
And I've got a lot of catching up to do too. So it's like, it really... like, I've got that fire under me and yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And even if you don't catch any waves, it's still worth it because you... pattern recognition, you're reading the ocean, you're trying to catch waves. That wave did a weird thing. And then you look, it was because it was this period. And then one day when it's pumping, you might get a little wind chop on the wave and you know how to negotiate it because you've surfed so many junky conditions and you knew that was coming because you're so familiar with the break and you've seen that wave pop up in that weird place or whatever. And so your time in the water, you cannot...

Silas Gnarside
Substitute. I think that's hard as well though. Like having the money to be able to travel and to surf in different places is obviously like kind of like the surfer's dream to just like go to different countries and surf, you know, really nice breaks. But you don't get familiar with one place, you know? Like staying in a place for a long time and getting really familiar with just one break. So it's a lot of like... I feel like always kind of being sort of fluid in that sense of like, you never really know what you're getting, kind of, you know? And like being in a new place at a break that you've never surfed with people who don't know you. I feel like experiencing that over and over again, it's almost like the first time over and over again.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, you gotta have a home break. Yeah. Obviously travel's amazing and important.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Home break.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. I like that.

Michael Frampton
Even if it's a different home break every year.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Like, I mean, if I was you, I'd be emailing the Four Seasons in the Maldives saying, hey, do you need a sous chef?

Silas Gnarside
Yeah, to move to French Polynesia so bad.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I wanted.

Silas Gnarside
I told the guy on my way out of the country when he stamped my passport, I was like, I need to find a wife. And he's like, you'll find one in there. And he pointed to the waiting room. I was like, all right. Didn't find a wife though. Not yet.

Michael Frampton
No. You said you wanted Hawaiian though. You gotta go.

Silas Gnarside
Hawaii. I'd settle for French Polynesia. Yeah, I'd settle for French Polynesia. I think that'd be... like I said, it's very loose—professional surfing, marrying a Hawaiian. It's just kind of like, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, if you want to reach high, you've got to aim high.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Have you been to Hawaii?

Silas Gnarside
Twice, yeah. So once when I was 12 and that was when I went to Maui. Super beautiful, but pretty touristy and like American kind of modern. And then Kauai. Kauai, I really loved Kauai. It's called the Garden Island.

Michael Frampton
Yes, I've been there. Yeah, and.

Silas Gnarside
It's so good. All the jungle and like the localism. And yeah, I really liked it there. It did still have that touch of, you know, tourism for sure, but I found it a lot more enjoyable. Like easier on the eyes, a little bit more friendly.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's a gem. Yeah. Yeah. You surfing there?

Silas Gnarside
Yeah. I did a lesson and then I actually, I did really good on my lesson. And I thought the next day I'd take an eight-footer instead of a nine-footer. And the swell had picked up as well. And I went back to the same beach and it was like I didn't even recognize the beach because of how different it was. It had rained. So all of the debris from the river had flowed into the water. So it changed the color of the water. And the waves were probably like four times bigger than when I was doing my lesson, you know? So they looked huge and I was like, okay, here we go. You know? And I was by myself and I just kind of sent it and I could barely balance on the eight-foot. And I was like, what is this? Like, it's only a foot of difference. Like how could it be that much less stable? Because on the nine-foot, it's like a tank. It's like a rock. It's not going anywhere. Yeah. And then I thought eight-footer, surely eight-footer, no problem. And I shocked myself. I was like, whoa. Like, and I didn't catch a single wave that day because I was so uncomfortable and out of my depth, it felt like. And I tried to paddle for a wave, but I couldn't commit to it, you know? I was too scared. And that was at 14. And I think that's probably the hardest thing about surfing is shutting the fear off, hey. Like you really have to like swallow it in that split moment, you know, when you go to catch a wave and you're looking down the line and then you see it, it's like that make or break moment. Like you either gotta like take a breath and fucking go for it, or you just gotta, you know, pull out or eat shit or whatever it is. But it's so intense, that moment of just like letting it go and just going for it. It's unreal. And I'm familiar with the sensation from other aspects of my life, but not on that level of intensity. It's such a, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's a big roadblock to people's development in surfing is fear, whether they realize it or not. Yeah. Yeah. It's good awareness though. Yeah. You would have noticed it on steroids in Tahiti with the clear water and the shallow reef.

Silas Gnarside
Unbelievable in Tahiti, because I've only surfed in like Canada, the water's not super clear. It's like dark blue, you know? And same with here in New Zealand, like you do get some clear days, especially on the East Coast, but like on the West Coast, usually it's pretty murky. Yeah. But Tahiti is like another level. Like you're on the wave and you can't tell the middle of the wave from the bottom of the wave because it's so glassy, see-through. And it's just like, yeah. Insane. And I think that trip was very substantial for me. It was very like a pivotal point for me because it was like, I can go and I can surf a wave like that. And I really did a lot better than I thought I would. You know, like I took myself by surprise and I was just like, I just couldn't even believe it. It was like, yeah.

Michael Frampton
So how did you overcome? How do you deal with fear?

Silas Gnarside
I think it's kind of similar to like instead of feeling like you're not where you're supposed to be or like you want to be somewhere, but you're not there yet. And instead of appreciating how far you've come to get where you are now, you're worried about the next thing. I kind of feel like it's similar to that. Like every wave that I ever didn't take because I was scared, I regretted it. And it's like, it's such an in-the-moment thing, but to like be present enough to remind yourself that you can't listen to the fear is, I'd say, as difficult as staying in the present and not appreciating what you have and where you've come from, opposed to where you want to be.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. It's essentially what it is, being in the present moment. Yeah. Because even if you were thinking half a second into the future while you're paddling into a wave, yeah, it's taking you away from...

Silas Gnarside
Every time I go to do my pop-up and I'm already thinking about, you know, my first maneuver, I just lose it. It's... you gotta be just like... yeah, you've really gotta... and I think I've experienced moments in the kitchen where I'm on, like I'm in the zone, I'm in my flow state. It's happened like twice, you know? And I always try and like, in those kinds of moments, like what was different? What did I have for breakfast that day? You know, like what led to that? And it's an interesting dynamic in the kitchen as well, because you can enter the flow state as a team. And not just in the kitchen, but, you know, in general. So it's, yeah, it's a very interesting thing because it's attainable and there is a way to get there, but going through the trial and error of figuring out how to like always be there is super challenging and super frustrating because you know you can do it, but a lot of the time you just can't. Like that's what it feels like to me.

Michael Frampton
Elusive. Yeah. Is. There's been some good books written on it though. Like The Rise of Superman, great book. Actually, Steven Kotler has written a couple of books. His most recent one is called NAR Country, where he teaches himself and a bunch of older people, 50 plus I think, skiers, to start park skiing.

Silas Gnarside
Just like normal skiers? Who's...

Michael Frampton
Never skied a park and has never slid a rail or anything.

Silas Gnarside
Okay.

Michael Frampton
And he teaches them how to do it. Cool. He taught himself how to do it. Everyone said, "No, you're too old to learn how to park ski. What are you talking about? You'll break a hip." And he did that. And he threw just... because you enter the flow state when you're being challenged enough to not be boring, but not so much that you're gonna hurt yourself or you fail. It's that sweet spot. I think he says it's between three and four percent. Yeah. Challenge—like it has to be a little bit harder than yesterday, but not so hard that you're just gonna fail or hurt yourself.

Silas Gnarside
And I feel like surfing is all that, you know?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. For sure. Because even if you get the same waves every day, you can still surf deeper or you can always... yeah, it's like the wave is a canvas for whatever you wanna do on it, whether it's longboard or shortboard or whatever. So yeah, that's a good awareness too, flow state stuff. There's plenty of reading to be done on that too. There's other things. He even started an institute—I forget what it's called—where they really studied flow states. And I think there's a list of 12 things that need to happen in order for you to increase the chances of entering flow state.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah, there's actually a girl in Raglan, I can't remember her name or the name of her company, but she does that. She does like flow state training, whatever that would entail. Yeah. And immediately I just went to individualism, like she's doing one-on-ones with people. And I kind of said something that made it obvious that I'd made an assumption. And she was like, "No, like I do whole teams of people, like kitchens." She gave off a little list of environments that you would do that in. And it's quite interesting. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
It's really fascinating, the flow state science. Yeah, I took a deep dive years ago and I learned a lot. Yeah, I mean, that's key if you wanna... in surfing, it usually sort of... it often just happens.

Silas Gnarside
Automatically.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, naturally.

Silas Gnarside
But I think you definitely tell when it doesn't. That day that I was out was probably the worst surfing that I had in a really long time. And it was super big swell—a video that blew up. I was on the inside, that wave that I caught. The ones out back were like twice the size and like super heavy. And there were so many, like, just balls in the air. Like crazy, like good surfing out there on their guns. I was on my little 5'10 because my step-up's out of commission. And I had like four hours sleep. I was like a little bit hungover, I think. And I just... my head was not there at all. It was a really tough day in the water for me. And then it blew up for like no reason. And I was like, why? Like, why that day, you know? Yeah, it's kind of funny. Yeah, ironic a little bit.

Michael Frampton
Life is mysterious. Yeah. Especially surfing. So how long are you in Raglan for?

Silas Gnarside
I leave on the 7th of January, going down to the South Island. Yeah. I'm probably gonna spend most of my time in Dunedin and the Catlins.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Have you got a job down there?

Silas Gnarside
Not yet.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, just winging it.

Silas Gnarside
Yeah. I love it. Yeah. And I don't even have like a financial cushion to wing it but I'm just gonna wing it anyways. You know, like I...

Michael Frampton
Just—You're young and single, who cares?

Silas Gnarside
But not even like that. I just, opposed to like trying to force things, I really like making decisions and seeing how my environment responds to me. Because like I said, when we were calling earlier, I just feel like sometimes you feel a lot of resistance when you make a decision or like, maybe some signs that it's not a good idea. And sometimes you make a decision and everything just kind of clicks into place, almost like a domino effect, like the shuffling of the cards, you know? And yeah, I'm just kind of following that.

Michael Frampton
Awesome. I think you're gonna do good, man. You'll do fine.

Silas Gnarside
Hope so. Yeah. But if I don't, it's okay. You know, I'm just here for it. Yeah. Good or the bad. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Awesome. Tell us your Instagram handle.

Silas Gnarside
It is surfandipitous.

Michael Frampton
Can you spell that?

Silas Gnarside
S-U-R-F-E-N-D-I-P-I-T-O-U-S.

Michael Frampton
I'll put a link to that in the show notes.

Silas Gnarside
Awesome. Yeah, I like it. It's like serendipity. Yeah. It's a good thing. Surf and surfing, I figured they go pretty good together. That's how I came up with the handle, yeah. Awesome.

Michael Frampton
I love it. And I urge everyone to give you a follow and follow your journey. And I think there's a lot of my listeners who will be interested to see what's possible. And, you know, I think we'll all be able to learn something by following.

Silas Gnarside
Nice. Yeah. I'm super excited. And thank you.

Michael Frampton
Sweet.

Silas Gnarside
I appreciate.

Michael Frampton
Sweet. Thanks for coming by. Yeah.

106 Surf Everyday Until Sponsored - Silas’s Bold Mission

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

Are you unknowingly sabotaging your surfing longevity by ignoring the basics of movement, breath, and recovery?

Whether you're an everyday surfer or a former pro, staying in the water pain-free takes more than just stoke. This episode explores why surfers lose performance as they age — and how to reverse that decline with tools from DNS, meditation, and vibration therapy.

• Learn why Taylor Knox swears by Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization (DNS) and a robotic knee replacement for his return to pain-free surfing.

• Discover Dr. Tim Brown’s top three non-negotiable tools for energy, healing, and cellular health.

• Understand how blending DNS with Kelee meditation can supercharge your movement quality and mental clarity.

Tap into this episode now to learn the tools surf legends and top practitioners use to think, move, and feel better—so you can surf for life.

Surfing longevity tips from 3 experienced legends of the surf world;
https://www.rintalamovementdesigns.com/mindset-and-movement-masterclass

Dr Tim Brown - WSL Medical Director and treating Doctor
https://www.instagram.com/tbsportscare/

Taylor Knox - Pro Surfer
https://www.instagram.com/taylor_knox/?hl=en

Dr. Michael Rintala - WSL Treating Doctor, movement and rehab specialist.
https://www.instagram.com/rintala_movementflow/?hl=en

For more details and to book tickets:
https://www.rintalamovementdesigns.com/mindset-and-movement-masterclass

More surfing tips: www.surfmastery.com

Key Points

• Discussion of the upcoming Mind and Movement Masterclass, featuring Dr. Tim Brown, Michael Rintala, Taylor Knox, and Ron Rathburn, aimed at improving longevity, movement, and mental well-being through surf-inspired techniques.

• Dr. Tim Brown's approach to working with high-profile clients like Neil Young, focusing on a holistic view of health encompassing diet, mindset, and physical activity.

• Discussion on the importance of hydration, quality sleep, and proper breathing techniques as foundational health practices.

• Dr. Tim Brown shares insights on the use of vibrational and frequency-based therapies, including sound therapy and tapping, for enhancing physical and mental well-being.

• Emphasis on the concept of 'greatness' in sports and the sacrifices required, contrasting it with the pursuit of 'good' and 'better' for the average athlete.

• Details about the upcoming Mind and Movement Masterclass, including venue, participants, and topics to be covered such as diet, movement, meditation, and surf technique.

• Taylor Knox discusses his recent knee surgery using advanced robotic technology, highlighting the benefits and the rehabilitation process.

• Advice on surfing longevity, emphasizing the importance of mindset and stress management in the healing and rehabilitation process.

• Explanation of the integration of Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization (DNS) with meditation practices to enhance movement efficiency and overall performance.

• Discussion on the benefits of vestibular and ocular training in conjunction with DNS for improved sensory input and motor pattern expression. 

Outline

Introduction of Guests and Event Promotion

• Michael Frampton introduced the guests: Taylor Knox, Dr. Michael Rintala, and Dr. Tim Brown.

• The guests are participating in a Mind and Movement Masterclass titled 'Longevity Tools to Think, Move and Feel Better Throughout Life', to be held in Carlsbad, Southern California on November 16, 2024.

• The event is promoted through Rintalamovementdesigns.com and links provided in the show notes.

Discussion on Dr. Tim Brown's Work with Neil Young

• Dr. Tim Brown has been working with Neil Young for about 12 years.

• The work involves overall health maintenance, focusing on diet, lifestyle, and physical activities to keep Neil Young active and healthy.

• Neil Young's passion for music is paralleled with surfers' passion for the sport, emphasizing the dedication and effort behind their respective crafts.

Dr. Tim Brown's Background and Philosophy

• Dr. Tim Brown graduated from chiropractic college in December 1983 and began working with surfers in 1984 at the TDK Gotcha Pro ASP Pro in Oahu, Hawaii.

• His approach to health and wellness is holistic, focusing on diet, mindset, and movement.

• He emphasizes the importance of hydration, quality sleep, and proper breathing techniques for overall health.

• Dr. Brown advocates for a balanced diet, including moderation in food choices and an emphasis on clean, easily digestible foods.

• He highlights the significance of being present in the moment and finding joy in the process of life and sports.

Innovative Health and Fitness Technologies

• Dr. Tim Brown discusses emerging technologies like NuX Technologies, which uses vibration and frequency to enhance physical performance and recovery.

• He mentions the Shift Wave machine, a chair that uses guided breath work to improve focus, energy, and readiness for various activities.

• Sound therapy, specifically NOW Sound Therapy, is highlighted for its ability to induce deep meditation and balance brain waves through different frequencies.

Importance of Body Awareness and Listening to the Body

• Dr. Tim Brown stresses the importance of being attuned to the body's signals and messages, suggesting that the body often communicates needs and issues before they become severe.

• He encourages individuals to recognize and respond to these signals, promoting a proactive approach to health and wellness.

Balancing Greatness and Normalcy

• Dr. Tim Brown shares insights from Kobe Bryant about the sacrifices required for greatness, emphasizing that true greatness often requires forgoing balance and normalcy.

• He discusses the importance of understanding and accepting these sacrifices for those aspiring to achieve greatness in any field.

Mind and Movement Masterclass Details

• The Mind and Movement Masterclass is a collaborative effort featuring Dr. Tim Brown, Michael Rintala, Taylor Knox, Matt Griggs, and Ron Rathbun.

• The event will cover topics such as diet, movement, nutrition, sleep, surf technique, Kili meditation, and dynamic neuromuscular stabilization (DNS).

• The masterclass aims to provide attendees with practical tools and insights to improve their surfing performance and overall well-being.

• The event will be held at Viore's new headquarters, featuring an outdoor amphitheater and will include prizes, giveaways, and good food.

Taylor Knox's Recent Injuries and Recovery

• Taylor Knox discusses recent injuries, including a torn adductor, a hamstring tear, and a sore hip.

• He shares his experience with a partial knee replacement using the Mako robot, which significantly improved his knee condition and allowed him to return to surfing pain-free.

• Knox credits his recovery to the help of Mike Rintala and Gina Stinko, who used active release technique (ART) in his rehabilitation.

Advice for Surfing Longevity

• Taylor Knox emphasizes the importance of mindset and emotional well-being in the healing process, advising against self-criticism and encouraging a positive outlook.

• He suggests focusing on personal goals and finding inner peace as key factors in overcoming challenges and achieving longevity in surfing.

Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization (DNS) and Its Benefits

• Michael Rintala explains DNS as a method to improve movement efficiency by allowing the expression of inborn motor patterns controlled by the central nervous system.

• He highlights the similarities between DNS and meditation, both aiming to reduce unnecessary effort and allow natural, efficient movement.

• Rintala discusses the importance of balancing the mind and body to achieve durability and longevity in movement quality.

Integration of Vestibular and Ocular Training with DNS

• Michael Rintala acknowledges the benefits of vestibular and ocular training as part of somatosensory input, enhancing the quality of movement.

• He plans to integrate DNS concepts with courses from Dr. Cobb on ocular and vestibular training, aiming to improve overall movement efficiency and awareness.

Transcription

Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Frampton. We have a special episode this episode. We have three guests. Of course, we have Taylor Knox, the legendary Taylor Knox, coming back on the show. We have Dr. Michael Rintala coming back on the show, and for the first appearance, we have Dr. Tim Brown. He's one of the co-medical directors of the WSL and a treating physician there as well. And these three gentlemen plus Ron Rathbun, who was a previous guest on the show back in episode 57, the founder of Key Meditation—these four gentlemen are getting together for a mind and movement masterclass, Longevity Tools to Think, Move and Feel Better Throughout Life, which is happening in Southern California in Carlsbad on November the 16th, 2024. An event I wish... I could make it to. And to find out more and to book tickets to that, you can go to rintalamovementdesigns.com and of course a link in the show notes and on the website to go straight to that. But following is the next best thing. We get to hear from Taylor Knox, Michael Rintala and Tim Brown in this episode. And you can go back and listen to Taylor Knox's first appearance in episode 31 and 46—he appeared as well. For a more detailed and deeper interview with Michael Rintala and DNS, you can go back to episode 50. And this will be Tim Brown's first appearance on the show. But if you're a surf nerd, you would have heard the name Tim Brown before. He's been one of the treating physicians and the medical director of the WSL for quite some time. And he's developed his own treatment stuff. He works very holistically with clients. He has a huge resume. You can go to TBSportsCare—that's @tbsportscare on Instagram—to find out more about Tim. I will have links in the show notes for more stuff about Tim as well. So he will be the first interview in this episode. I was going for a surf last week and wanted to do a double session. So I had two wetsuits in the car and my Flat Rock wetsuit was already wet, so I slipped on one of my other suits. I hadn't worn anything else apart from my Flat Rock wetsuit since I got it, but putting this other wetsuit on made me realize just how hard it is to put on other wetsuits. And it's another little bonus I noticed about these Flat Rock wetsuits. Not only are these ultra comfortable and warm, but it's so easy to put on and to take off. That saves time. And if you want a discount on a brand new Flat Rock Guaranteed for Life wetsuit, use discount code MASTER15. That's MASTER15 at checkout. You can go to flatrockwetsuits.com.au. Link for that is in the show notes of course. And... I will now fade in my conversation with Dr. Tim Brown. We ease into this conversation. A little bit of talk about Neil Young.

Michael Frampton
...hell young on, is it, say Zuma Beach underneath?

Dr. Tim Brown
Yeah. Yeah. One of my... one of my patients, one of my good friends actually. Super honored to somehow fall into his life and be part of his tour and part of his life, actually, in his wedding and all that stuff. He married an actress named Daryl Hannah, who my wife grew up with. They're both actors. And so she got together with Neil and all of a sudden now we're, you know, we're sharing wives and husbands.

Michael Frampton
Not literally, I hope.

Michael Frampton
I'm sorry. It's such a nice part of the world. I surfed Zuma Beach every day for four years.

Dr. Tim Brown
No way. Really?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's what caught my eye.

Dr. Tim Brown
Nice. Yeah. Did you run into Bob Dylan out there too? Flea and Coldplay. Chris Martin was out surfing Point Loma every day with no shirt on in the middle of winter.

Michael Frampton
No way, really?

Dr. Tim Brown
Yeah, Mike D... I think the D stands for douchebag, by the way. He would just drop in on anyone, but you know.

Michael Frampton
No, I never did. No. I ran into Anthony Kiedis and Flea and Coldplay. Chris Martin was out surfing Point Loma every day with no shirt on in the middle of winter.

Dr. Tim Brown
Yeah, Mike D... I think the D stands for douchebag, by the way. He would just drop in on anyone, but you know.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, there's always one.

Dr. Tim Brown
The Beastie Boys, anyway. So, were you treating Neil like on his tour? Is that what you're alluding to?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I never liked the Beastie Boys anyway, so. Were you treating Neil like on his tour? Is that what you're alluding to? Honor just to be in the same room. Alone. Get close to him and find out a little bit about what makes him tick and watch his process of him writing and, you know, it's just, he's just one of us, man. He's just a surfer without a surfboard. You know, he has the same mentality and he's always looking for the next great ride, whatever that may be. And, you know, such a great champion for human rights and nature and the earth in general. So it's not hard to get wrapped up into his groove for sure.

Dr. Tim Brown
Yeah, I've been working with him for the last, I don't know, 12 years or so. And, you know, just such a great honor just to be in the same room. Alone. Get close to him and find out a little bit about what makes him tick and watch his process of him writing and, you know, it's just, he's just one of us, man. He's just a surfer without a surfboard. You know, he has the same mentality and he's always looking for the next great ride, whatever that may be. And, you know, such a great champion for human rights and nature and the earth in general. So it's not hard to get wrapped up into his groove for sure.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. In what capacity? Like from a bodywork, like keeping his body in check capacity? Is that what you're working with him? Yeah. The long-term physical manifestation of what we eat, think and do. And there's no way around it, you know. And so looking at all the things he does on a regular basis from the time he wakes up to the time he goes to bed, what are the things that he could do to amplify his life, to amplify the things he loves to do. And like, you know, what are the best nutrients to keep his inflammation down? You know, as we get older, we get a lot of chronic stuff and he's not, he's... and they're not getting any younger. So he's almost 80. And so he wants to be, you know, his mind is... he's a teenager. You know, he wants to get out there and jam and play with the boys and whether that's jamming in the barn or, you know, swimming laps or whatever it might be. He's down. He just, you know... He's just, he realizes that the body's a temple. And you really have to respect it as best you can. And he had a couple of rough years back in the day, you know. Back in the '60s and '70s, when there were just no limits on, you know, experimenting with your mind and body, you know, he rode that wave, so to speak. And now... and, you know, has a lot of great wisdom from it. But he wants to, you know, he wants to keep active. He wants to keep his attitude alive and really relate to things everybody else can. And so... he's a good dude.

Dr. Tim Brown
Kind of an overall, you know, we become... you know, as part of our talk here that we're doing with the boys. But, you know, we become the long-term physical manifestation of what we eat, think and do. And there's no way around it, you know. And so looking at all the things he does on a regular basis from the time he wakes up to the time he goes to bed, what are the things that he could do to amplify his life, to amplify the things he loves to do. And like, you know, what are the best nutrients to keep his inflammation down? You know, as we get older, we get a lot of chronic stuff and he's not, he's... and they're not getting any younger. So he's almost 80. And so he wants to be, you know, his mind is... he's a teenager. You know, he wants to get out there and jam and play with the boys and whether that's jamming in the barn or, you know, swimming laps or whatever it might be. He's down. He just, you know... He's just, he realizes that the body's a temple. And you really have to respect it as best you can. And he had a couple of rough years back in the day, you know. Back in the '60s and '70s, when there were just no limits on, you know, experimenting with your mind and body, you know, he rode that wave, so to speak. And now... and, you know, has a lot of great wisdom from it. But he wants to, you know, he wants to keep active. He wants to keep his attitude alive and really relate to things everybody else can. And so... he's a good dude.

Michael Frampton
Good man. I mean, obviously he's still passionate about, like, that. He wants to, when he does get on stage and perform, he wants to do it well. Never, you know, I've never caught enough waves ever. And so that's him with music. And it's just great to see those parallels and the passion, you know, that comes from it.

Dr. Tim Brown
He's a grump. Like, you know, he's like me, probably you too. I got a fucking problem. Okay. I like to surf a lot. And I've never, you know, I've never caught enough waves ever. And so that's him with music. And it's just great to see those parallels and the passion, you know, that comes from it. Their whole lives are dedicated to making sure that the songs are good, the performance is right, the singing on pitch, the body's connected when they do it. They probably don't even eat from, you know, six hours before they're due to sing because of the way that it might affect that. There's so much that goes on behind that, and that's the same for surfers, which is what sort of, you know, why you're here on this show. The surfers, they have that same mentality. We think they are just these talented athletes that just go out and surf, but there's so much more that goes on behind the scenes. And I spoke with Taylor yesterday and he said that whenever he was on tour and whenever he goes to an event nowadays, every single athlete just wants to be treated by you. Everyone's like, "Where's Tim? My body, I need Tim." Why is that?

Michael Frampton
Yeah. And I think it alludes to something which a lot of us sometimes don't realize. We might think Neil Young, he's just a talented musician who just, you know, he can just sit down and sing and pick up a guitar whenever he wants. But there's actually a lot that goes on behind it. And there's, you know, their whole lives are dedicated to making sure that the songs are good, the performance is right, the singing on pitch, the body's connected when they do it. They probably don't even eat from, you know, six hours before they're due to sing because of the way that it might affect that. There's so much that goes on behind that, and that's the same for surfers, which is what sort of, you know, why you're here on this show. The surfers, they have that same mentality. We think they are just these talented athletes that just go out and surf, but there's so much more that goes on behind the scenes. And I spoke with Taylor yesterday and he said that whenever he was on tour and whenever he goes to an event nowadays, every single athlete just wants to be treated by you. Everyone's like, "Where's Tim? My body, I need Tim." Why is that? Repetitions to understand the human condition and how to approach it and how to speak the language so that you're not just sounding like you bought a lot of 29 cent words. You want to sound... the master of educator is able to teach a six-year-old kid something. They're able to teach that kid something that it can repeat it back. And so for me, it's been a lifetime goal, at least career-wise, to be able to break my big long words down into words that are easily digestible and they're going to be meaningful in the long term. So I think that maybe that's part of it. And then of course, just being around probably longer than a lot of guys, you know, to help these athletes. I've started working with guys that were riding single fins basically, you know, and then the thruster came out. And that was kind of the beginning of my sports medicine. And so you've seen surfing change so much since, you know, that's the '80s. It's been just wild. My inspiration, Jerry Lopez—you can see my Bolt board behind me and my poster of Jerry behind me there, him surfing out in front of his house. You know, that was my inspiration. And so it continues to drag me along with it. As well as seeing all the inspiration coming from the new kids in town that are just mind-blowing athletes that have decided to take surfing on instead of going into the ball-and-stick sports and have just lit the sport on fire. I mean, what's next? What are they going to do next? I don't know. All I know is it's not the same sport I started with. That's for darn sure. The other thing—I’m a surfer. I grew up surfing. My dad was a surfer, and I think speaking the language and understanding the nomenclature and knowing when to keep your trap shut and just be humble is really important. And I think if the surfers get a load of that and they see that, then they're a lot more comfortable with you as well. And they're more curious about what makes this guy tick? So I think just living the things that I talked about is probably the most powerful example as opposed to speaking a lot of.

Dr. Tim Brown
That's just super kind. I think, you know, I mean, I've been there for a minute. In fact, I think I sent you a couple pictures today just to give you some flavor of kind of where it started. You know, I graduated from chiropractic college in 1983, in December 1983. And in 1984, I got asked to work at the TDK Gotcha Pro ASP Pro at Sandy Beach on Oahu in Hawaii. And that was kind of the beginning of the end, so to speak, for me. You know, the beginning of falling in love with the other side of surfing—the preparation for surfing, the recovery from surfing, the aspirational pieces of surfing. I got put front and center with some of the best athletes in the world and was asked to work with them. And I'm just out of school. And I don't know about a lot of docs, but when I got out of school, I had all this education, but I didn't know what I was doing. You know, I mean, I was a surfer. I was an often-injured ex-athlete, but it takes a lot of time. That's why they call it a practice. I mean, it takes a lot of repetitions to understand the human condition and how to approach it and how to speak the language so that you're not just sounding like you bought a lot of 29 cent words. You want to sound... the master of educator is able to teach a six-year-old kid something. They're able to teach that kid something that it can repeat it back. And so for me, it's been a lifetime goal, at least career-wise, to be able to break my big long words down into words that are easily digestible and they're going to be meaningful in the long term. So I think that maybe that's part of it. And then of course, just being around probably longer than a lot of guys, you know, to help these athletes. I've started working with guys that were riding single fins basically, you know, and then the thruster came out. And that was kind of the beginning of my sports medicine. And so you've seen surfing change so much since, you know, that's the '80s. It's been just wild. My inspiration, Jerry Lopez—you can see my Bolt board behind me and my poster of Jerry behind me there, him surfing out in front of his house. You know, that was my inspiration. And so it continues to drag me along with it. As well as seeing all the inspiration coming from the new kids in town that are just mind-blowing athletes that have decided to take surfing on instead of going into the ball-and-stick sports and have just lit the sport on fire. I mean, what's next? What are they going to do next? I don't know. All I know is it's not the same sport I started with. That's for darn sure. The other thing—I’m a surfer. I grew up surfing. My dad was a surfer, and I think speaking the language and understanding the nomenclature and knowing when to keep your trap shut and just be humble is really important. And I think if the surfers get a load of that and they see that, then they're a lot more comfortable with you as well. And they're more curious about what makes this guy tick? So I think just living the things that I talked about is probably the most powerful example as opposed to speaking a lot of.

Michael Frampton
Words. Seminar that you're involved in that's up and coming. What's some of those lessons that you've learned through that journey that you hope to impart to the everyday athlete who's going to come along to see this and participate? For pleasure. And what are those foods? And, you know, how much of them should you have? So understanding your diet preferences and the things that you really need to do have to come together. And we get a whole new body on the inside every year. Our body's constantly dying off and remaking itself. And we get a chance to dictate what those cells look like. Do we want to have fast food McDonald's cells or do we want to have these juicy, quality, hydrated, high-energy cells? And so for me, especially as time goes on, I want to get rid of the former and really latch onto the latter—those cells that are going to make my cells. Now, I'm almost 70, so when I get to 70, I want those cells to be as bright and shiny as possible. And we have the ability to do that. And it's all based upon choice and education. So, teaching people how to do it without making it complex is really kind of my job. And I think that you go through and see a lot of these trends coming through training and coming through what we wear and what we eat and how we breathe and all that stuff. It all comes back to the basics. It always seems to swing back to the basics, you know—the primal food thing and all this stuff that goes on for trends. And I think it has its value, especially for some people and what their needs are, but it always comes back to the basics. It never really gets away from that too far. So eating the right carbohydrates, the right fats, the right proteins, cutting things out of your diet that are on our planet that we were meant to eat—I'm not a big fan of that. I'm a fan of moderation. You know, I lean into the vegan vegetarian side of things. And so that's kind of my drift that I go into. But some people—my NFL guys and whatnot that really want to put on a lot of weight and stay thick and kind of be in that old school—I just make sure that what they're eating is as clean as possible and as easy for the body to process and absorb as possible too. So it comes down to what we call the biopsychosocial. That means where are you from and what did your parents do and how did you grow up? All those things make a big difference too. So you don't want to come in and change somebody 180 degrees today to make them better, to make them do what Kelly's doing or do what Mick's doing or those guys, you know. You really have to find your own niche and you really have to find your own rhythm and synchrony. And it's the same thing for the mind. You know, as far as keeping people in the moment. You know, that's our goal. That's where life is lived. You can't be happy unless you're in the moment. So for me, happiness is my goal. So I had to figure out how am I going to live my life in that pocket? How am I going to make sure that I'm planning for the future and that I'm learning from the past, but that I spend the predominant amount of time where life is lived? And that's right here, right now with you. And so being able to have that mindset so that when you do find those things that you love—those peak experiences, those things that we really live for—I mean, who's not going to want to maximize those moments? And so, you know, that mental part is key. And then the doing part—what do you do all day? How do you prepare yourself for surf and for life and for business and all that stuff? What do you do? What are the shapes that you put your body in all day? Because that really has a whole bunch to do with how I'm going to recommend any kind of training. How much time do you spend on your devices, at the desk, watching TV, sitting on the couch? Those things—your body will mold to that. Your body—we adapt. Like I said, a whole new body every year. If you want to spend a year on the couch, guess what you look like at the end of the year? You know, it looks like you spent a year on the couch. You know, your body's folded forward, everything's contracting. So, you know, we are highly specific to adapting to our environment. And so we want to make sure that if I'm looking at your environment, what do you do? What's your day look like? What kind of bed do you sleep in? What kind of chair are you in? And how much time do you spend in it? So I recommend everybody spends a lot of time on the floor. That is the thing. If we look at what we lose as we get older, we lose the ability to get off the fucking floor. Excuse my French. But I really want to emphasize that. We become afraid of the floor. And that's an issue. So, spending time on the floor makes you get up from the floor and makes that less fearful for you. And I know that's going from one extreme—surfing—to, okay, now we're starting to end life here. But that's the truth. And we become fearful of moving. So movement, therefore, is life. And life is movement. So everything that I do kind of always spirals back into movement. And spiral is a big thing too. Not only does spiral make up the waves, but it's how our bodies are formed. There's a number system in the body called the Fibonacci sequence, and it's known as the golden ratio or sacred geometry. It's kind of how the universe is made up. And we are part of that universe. And guess what? We're made up of the same thing. And that's vibration and frequency and energy. Everything organic in the universe has those three principles. And so that's what we're made up of. So I'm really into looking at the dynamics of healing with that in mind. You know, how does our frequency change when we drop in our health? Our immune system drops, our body's not able to handle the stress it was before. And then what do we do to vibrate it back into life? And you'll be seeing a lot of those things come out in the near future about how vibration—key frequency and vibration—like your nerves vibrate at a different frequency than your muscle does. And your organs—heart, lung, liver—they all have their own frequencies. So the way that we keep the frequencies up is to be in good environments, have a good mindset, and hydrate. Because if you don't hydrate, you can't vibrate. So I see three things that happen in people—relatively simple things everybody can do for free—to enhance their life starting today. And that's to make sure that you've hydrated half your body weight in ounces. I would say sleep is the other big deal, right? You've got to get seven to nine hours of sleep. It's compulsory. You have to do it. And you have to learn how to make it high-quality sleep too. Because when you're sleeping, your brain's scrubbing itself. It's going through all these different wave patterns in your brain to clean itself up and flush stuff out of there so you can get ready for the next day. So having a high quality of sleep is really important. And then the third thing is just breathing right—nose breathing, diaphragmatic breathing. I mean, those three things, if I could turn the world onto that and just deliver and say, hey, here's the most special thing that you can do, I know it would elevate. It would raise all the ships in the harbor. You know, it would elevate everybody's life, everybody's vibration, everybody's attitude and all that stuff. And I know that's highly simplistic information. But we've got to start somewhere. And so that's a great way to start with one's health—just looking at those three things.

Dr. Tim Brown
Yeah, I think, you know, I mean, we go back to those three things again. You know, if we're talking about what you eat, you know, it's talking about the foods that give you energy, not foods that you eat for pleasure. And what are those foods? And, you know, how much of them should you have? So understanding your diet preferences and the things that you really need to do have to come together. And we get a whole new body on the inside every year. Our body's constantly dying off and remaking itself. And we get a chance to dictate what those cells look like. Do we want to have fast food McDonald's cells, or do we want to have these juicy, quality, hydrated, high-energy cells? And so for me, especially as time goes on, I want to get rid of the former and really latch onto the latter—those cells that are going to make my cells. Now I'm almost 70, so when I get to 70, I want those cells to be as bright and shiny as possible. And we have the ability to do that. And it's all based upon choice and education. So teaching people how to do it without making it complex is really kind of my job. And I think that you go through and see a lot of these trends coming through training and coming through what we wear and what we eat and how we breathe and all that stuff. It all comes back to the basics. It always seems to swing back to the basics. You know, the primal food thing and all this stuff, you know, that goes on for trends, and I think it has its value, especially for some people and what their needs are, but it always comes back to the basics. It never really gets away from that too far. So eating the right carbohydrates, the right fats, the right proteins, cutting things out of your diet that are on our planet that we were meant to eat—I'm not a big fan of that. I'm a fan of moderation. You know, I lean into the vegan vegetarian side of things. And so that's kind of my drift that I go into. But some people, you know, my NFL guys and whatnot that really want to put on a lot of weight and stay thick and kind of be in that old school, I just make sure that what they're eating is as clean as possible and as easy for the body to process and absorb as possible too. So it comes down to what we call the biopsychosocial. That means where are you from and what did your parents do and how did you grow up? All those things make a big difference too. So you don't want to come in and change somebody 180 degrees today to make them better, to make them do what Kelly's doing or do what Mick's doing or those guys, you know. You really have to find your own niche and you really have to find your own rhythm and synchrony. And it's the same thing for the mind. You know, as far as keeping people in the moment. You know, that's our goal. That's where life is lived. You can't be happy unless you're in the moment. So for me, happiness is my goal. So I had to figure out how am I going to live my life in that pocket? How am I going to make sure that I'm planning for the future and that I'm learning from the past, but that I spend the predominant amount of time where life is lived? And that's right here, right now with you. And so being able to have that mindset so that when you do find those things that you love—those peak experiences, those things that we really live for—you know, I mean, who's not going to want to maximize those moments? And so, you know, that mental part is key. And then, and the doing part—what do you do all day? How do you prepare yourself for surf and for life and for business and all that stuff? What do you do? What are the shapes that you put your body in all day? Because that really has a whole bunch to do with how I'm going to recommend any kind of training. How much time do you spend on your devices, at the desk, watching TV, sitting on the couch? Those things—your body will mold to that. Your body—we adapt. Like I said, a whole new body every year. If you want to spend a year on the couch, guess what you look like at the end of the year? You know, it looks like you spent a year on the couch. You know, your body's folded forward, everything's contracting. So, you know, we are highly specific to adapting to our environment. And so we want to make sure that if I'm looking at your environment, what do you do? What's your day look like? What kind of bed do you sleep in? What kind of chair are you in? And how much time do you spend in it? So I recommend everybody spends a lot of time on the floor. That is the thing. If we look at what we lose as we get older, we lose the ability to get off the fucking floor. Excuse my French. But I really want to emphasize that. We become afraid of the floor. And that's an issue. So spending time on the floor makes you get up from the floor and makes that less fearful for you. And I know that's going from one extreme—surfing—to, okay, now we're starting to end life here. But that's the truth. And we become fearful of moving. So movement, therefore, is life. And life is movement. So everything that I do kind of always spirals back into movement. And spiral is a big thing too. Not only does spiral make up the waves, but it's how our bodies are formed. There's a number system in the body called the Fibonacci sequence, and it's known as the golden ratio or sacred geometry. It's kind of how the universe is made up. And we are part of that universe. And guess what? We're made up of the same thing. And that's vibration and frequency and energy. Everything organic in the universe has those three principles. And so that's what we're made up of. So I'm really into looking at the dynamics of healing with that in mind. You know, how does our frequency change when we drop in our health? Our immune system drops. Our body's not able to handle the stress it was before. And then what do we do to vibrate it back into life? And you'll be seeing a lot of those things come out in the near future about how vibration—key frequency and vibration—like your nerves vibrate at a different frequency than your muscle does. And your organs—heart, lung, liver—they all have their own frequencies. So the way that we keep the frequencies up is to be in good environments, have a good mindset, and hydrate. Because if you don't hydrate, you can't vibrate. So I see three things that happen in people. Relatively simple things everybody can do for free to enhance their life starting today. And that's to make sure that you've hydrated half your body weight in ounces. I would say sleep is the other big deal, right? You’ve got to get seven to nine hours of sleep. It's compulsory. You have to do it. And you have to learn how to make it high-quality sleep too. Because when you're sleeping, your brain's scrubbing itself. It's going through all these different wave patterns in your brain to clean itself up and flush stuff out of there so you can get ready for the next day. So having a high quality of sleep is really important. And then the third thing is just breathing right. Nose breathing, diaphragmatic breathing. I mean, those three things, if I could turn the world onto that and just deliver and say, hey, here's the most special thing that you can do, I know it would elevate. It would raise all the ships in the harbor. You know, it would elevate everybody's life, everybody's vibration, everybody's attitude and all that stuff. And I know that's highly simplistic information. But we've got to start somewhere. And so that's a great way to start with one's health—just looking at those three things.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, and I totally agree. You alluded to the vibrational stuff, and it sounds like you've been following some interesting leaders within the health and fitness space who aren't yet mainstream, who you—seems like you predict them to be. Jack Kruse comes to mind. I don't know if you're on to what he's been doing—he’s been doing that for a long time—but his stuff's starting to come to the forefront. And anyone else that we should be looking at in that space for the nerds out there?

Dr. Tim Brown
Well, there. They'll make it happen that much faster because as you're doing the actual mechanical stretch or movement, it's sending in the vibration that's specifically tuned for those fibers. And when the body gets that information, it just, it yields to it way quicker. And so that's a really cool thing. There's another really cool machine I used at the U.S. Open of Surfing last week. We had like 35 doctors out there and I met this one group that said, hey, I want to introduce you to this machine. And they told me about the concept of it. I said, gosh, if you could bring one out, man, let's have it in the tent. And so they have this thing called ShiftWave, and it's a chair that you sit in. And it's probably, I don't know, it's 12 to 15 grand. So it's not cheap, but the experience that you have in it is just unbelievable. You sit in this chair and then you put on headphones and you put on a mask so you can't see, so light's blocked out. And it just starts guiding you through this meditation of breath. Different types of breath work though, not just singular breath work, to elicit different responses in your body. So there's one that in particular I'll tell you about, it's called Ride the Tiger. It's this 25-minute program where they take you through a HALO jump. Like you've never jumped, you've never parachuted, but they take you through the breath work that a HALO jumper—that's high-altitude skydivers that do it in the military and so forth—but they're diving for miles out of a plane, miles up in the air. And they're going through this atmosphere where they got no oxygen. So they hyper-oxygenate you with this oxygen program or this breathing program before they put you into this. They have you do the HALO jump into this jungle where there's this tiger that you have to befriend. So you have to calm yourself, yet keep yourself intense. And so they take you through a breathing program that does that. And I mention that program because Jhony Corzo, who just was in the Olympics from Mexico, and then he was at the U.S. Open—just won the U.S. Open. We turned him on to that the first day of the U.S. Open. He was riding the tiger every day, twice a day, and ended up winning the comp. And so it just kind of tells that story of here's a guy who's come into the competition, probably pretty fatigued from coming back from, you know, the Olympics and having that whole experience—that emotional experience along with the physical one. And now he's found this little button that he can push to get his vibrations back up, his energy up, his focus up. Because different vibrations will either mellow you out by putting you into the parasympathetic mode or heighten everything and put you in the ready state. So that's kind of what this machine does. It plays between those two variances and gets you ready for whatever thing you're getting into—whether you've got to go give a speech or you're going to go for a surf or you want to go take a nap.

Dr. Tim Brown
There are some cool products that are coming out with frequency in mind. One is NuX. It's called NuX Technologies, and that is a stem machine that vibrates and uses different frequencies to create different changes in the body. Like they'll set a frequency to lengthen muscle. I've never seen a muscle stim that does that before. So as I'm doing a yoga class or Gymnastica Natural—whatever I'm into—and I'm trying to gain mobility, these things will accentuate whatever I'm doing physically in there. They'll make it happen that much faster because as you're doing the actual mechanical stretch or movement, it's sending in the vibration that's specifically tuned for those fibers. And when the body gets that information, it just yields to it way quicker. And so that's a really cool thing. There's another really cool machine I used at the U.S. Open of Surfing last week. We had like 35 doctors out there and I met this one group that said, "Hey, I want to introduce you to this machine." And they told me about the concept of it. I said, "Gosh, if you could bring one out, man, let's have it in the tent." And so they have this thing called ShiftWave, and it's a chair that you sit in. And it's probably, I don't know, it's $12,000 to $15,000. So it's not cheap, but the experience that you have in it is just unbelievable. You sit in this chair and then you put on headphones and you put on a mask so you can't see, so light's blocked out. And it just starts guiding you through this meditation of breath—different types of breathwork though, not just singular breathwork—to elicit different responses in your body. So there's one that in particular I'll tell you about. It's called Ride the Tiger. It's this 25-minute program where they take you through a HALO jump. Like you've never jumped, you've never parachuted, but they take you through the breathwork that a HALO jumper—that's high-altitude skydivers that do it in the military and so forth—but they're diving for miles out of a plane, miles up in the air, and they're going through this atmosphere where they got no oxygen. So they hyper-oxygenate you with this oxygen program or this breathing program before they put you into this. They have you do the HALO jump into this jungle where there's this tiger that you have to befriend. So you have to calm yourself, yet keep yourself intense. And so they take you through a breathing program that does that. And I mention that program because Jhony Corzo, who just was in the Olympics from Mexico and then he was at the U.S. Open, just won the U.S. Open. We turned him on to that the first day of the U.S. Open. He was riding the tiger every day, twice a day, and ended up winning the comp. And so it just kind of tells that story of here's a guy who's come into the competition, probably pretty fatigued from coming back from, you know, the Olympics and having that whole experience—that emotional experience along with the physical one. And now he's found this little button that he can push to get his vibrations back up, his energy up, his focus up. Because different vibrations will either mellow you out by putting you into the parasympathetic mode or heighten everything and put you in the ready state. So that's kind of what this machine does. It plays between those two variances and gets you ready for whatever thing you're getting into—whether you've got to go give a speech or you're going to go for a surf or you want to go take a nap.

Michael Frampton
Wow, really interesting. That's cool. One thing I can think of I've talked about really quickly is called tapping, which is a really old and ancient way of healing where they tap on certain parts of the body to get a response. And of course that's vibrational. So it's around us. You know, the negative vibrations are car engines, plane engines, train engines. Whenever we sit in a car, we're degenerating. Same with an airplane. Besides being up in a microwave, you're vibrating. So unfortunately, those vibrations are not good for us. So there are some vibrations that are good, some that aren't. Those that are in the transportation system industry retire early, often because of the damage that vibration has done to... yeah.

Dr. Tim Brown
Cool. Yeah. And the thing, the most basic thing I can think of I've talked about really quickly is called tapping, which is a really old and ancient way of healing where they tap on certain parts of the body to get a response. And of course that's vibrational. So it's around us. You know, the negative vibrations are car engines, plane engines, train engines. Whenever we sit in a car, we're degenerating. Same with an airplane. Besides being up in a microwave, you're vibrating. So unfortunately, those vibrations are not good for us. So there are some vibrations that are good, some that aren't. Those that are in the transportation system industry retire early, often because of the damage that vibration has done.

Michael Frampton
The system. Yeah. I mean, and sound healing comes to mind, of course. I'm not—I don't have anything to do with these products—but I use them with my athletes. N.O.W. Sound Therapy. And there's these two little speakers you put right next to your ears as you lay back. And it takes you through three minutes of sounds. And these sounds are all different frequencies that take your brain through all the different waves. Oftentimes when we're stressed out or we're overcooked, our brain sticks into one pattern and it's got like six different waves that it needs to go through for all its processes. And so this sound therapy takes your brain through—it's involuntary—it just goes on. And at the end of the three minutes, you've had physiologically a 30-minute deep meditation. I don't know about you, Michael. Meditation is tough for me to sit down and give it 45 on a daily basis, if we're being honest, right? But if you can't give up three minutes to get your mind right, then you probably don't really want your mind right. So I do the three-minute thing, you know, oftentimes multiple times during the day, and it's just wonderful. And you can't believe it when you experience it the first time because it's so simple. And the chemistry that you feel change in your body after doing this is—you know, it's drug-like. Because that's what's happening. Brain chemistry is being released into your body and you actually feel it.

Dr. Tim Brown
There's a product I want to just mention real quick called N.O.W. I'm not—I don't have anything to do with these products—but I use them with my athletes. N.O.W. Sound Therapy. And there's these two little speakers you put right next to your ears as you lay back. And it takes you through three minutes of sounds. And these sounds are all different frequencies that take your brain through all the different waves. Oftentimes, when we're stressed out or we're overcooked, our brain sticks into one pattern and it's got like six different waves that it needs to go through for all its processes. And so this sound therapy takes your brain through—it's involuntary—it just goes on. And at the end of the three minutes, you've had physiologically a 30-minute deep meditation. I don't know about you, Michael. Meditation is tough for me to sit down and give it 45 on a daily basis, if we're being honest, right? But if you can't give up three minutes to get your mind right, then you probably don't really want your mind right. So I do the three-minute thing, you know, oftentimes multiple times during the day, and it's just wonderful. And you can't believe it when you experience it the first time because it's so simple. And the chemistry that you feel change in your body after doing this is—you know, it's drug-like. Because that's what's happening. Brain chemistry is being released into your body and you actually feel it.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I struggle to do long meditation. I do the Kelee five-minute meditation. That's my go-to. Yeah. And I use sound as well. You feel certain frequencies, you feel your bones vibrate differently and different parts of the body vibrate, which of course, even from a pure neurological perspective, that just increases your basic body awareness. A keen ear and they listen to the whispers before it becomes a conversation. Before it becomes a scream. When it's a scream, you're injured. But your body's always talking to us. And like when you walk by, like in your house and you're walking by a bottle of vitamin C—some days, the last three days you walk by it and you see that you're cognizant of it. There's a reason for that. You might want to maybe suss out and take some of that. Because your body's always giving you messages and it becomes, you know, that ability to become wise and to have wisdom through experience, to start recognizing these things. And so, you know, I've already been through a bunch of trips around the world. You know, the sun's gone around a few times in my life. And so anything I can do to share some of that stuff, which is what you're doing to my people—such a good job of it. Really appreciate your perspective as well, because, you know, there's so much that we can either choose to get out of life or leave behind. And I just, I've had the opportunity to be around a lot of people that have gotten the most out of life. And I want to share those experiences.

Dr. Tim Brown
And that's everything, right? We want to bring that awareness out. It's talking to us all the time. And what we have to do is learn how to adjust the volume. You know, the people that are really on with their body—the Jerry Lopezes, the Kellys, the John Johns, the Micks—those guys really have a keen ear and they listen to the whispers before it becomes a conversation. Before it becomes a scream. When it's a scream, you're injured. But your body's always talking to us. And like when you walk by, like in your house and you're walking by a bottle of vitamin C—some days, the last three days you walk by it and you see that you're cognizant of it. There's a reason for that. You might want to maybe suss out and take some of that. Because your body's always giving you messages and it becomes, you know, that ability to become wise and to have wisdom through experience, to start recognizing these things. And so, you know, I've already been through a bunch of trips around the world. You know, the sun's gone around a few times in my life. And so anything I can do to share some of that stuff, which is what you're doing to my people—such a good job of it. Really appreciate your perspective as well, because, you know, there's so much that we can either choose to get out of life or leave behind. And I just, I've had the opportunity to be around a lot of people that have gotten the most out of life. And I want to share those experiences.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, thank you. That sounds awesome. I mean, surfing is a long-term relationship—sort of a thought that I've been thinking about recently. And like any long-term relationship, the more committed you are to it, the more you're going to get out of it. Of course, you're going to have challenges. And whilst, you know, if you want to improve a personal or romantic relationship, you might go to a marriage counselor and you might, you know, do some self-help reading or something like that. But when it comes to surfing, you've got to keep your body and your mind and your diet in check in order just to keep getting off the floor—because that's what a pop-up is, right? Essentially. That's... system and the body can really help to repair itself. Yep. So I think that was really cool stuff that I saw.

Dr. Tim Brown
Yeah, I saw on your site, you know, you're into the pop-up, and that's something that I'll share with you too. That's what happens when we get older—we lose the pop-up, right? And it was really encouraging for me to see you doing a reverse pop-up, Michael. Because for me, that's what I do with sports. If a kicker's got a kicking injury, I take him through the reverse motion of a kick to help him heal. And it's the same thing with surfing. So that reverse pop-up that you've got going on the other side of the planet here is just bitchin’ to see—that you're doing the same stuff—because I really believe it's true. You just reverse what's happening in the nervous system, and the body can really help to repair itself. Yep. So I think that was really cool stuff that I saw.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. No, it's a good way to progress into it. And reverse pop-up with the opposite leg as well to keep the body a bit more symmetrical. I used to work with Kobe Bryant quite a bit and ended up meeting up with him about three months before he passed, again. And he was working with us with the U.S. Surf Team. Really. And so he brought and wanted to talk story and talked about balance with Kobe. And one of the girls that was trying for the surf team, I remember, asked, "Well, Kobe, I too want to be the best in the world at what I do." She was a water polo player and Olympian, and now she wanted to be a surfing Olympian. And so she goes, "But I'm having a problem with my family sharing—trying to become balanced, you know, between my family and my work and my job and my sport—that I want to be the best in the world at." She goes, "Well, Kobe, I know you want to be the best in the world. How did you balance that out?" And he goes, "Look, you have to do one thing first and foremost, and that's lose the word balance." And I just went, "What?" And he goes, "There is no balance in greatness. If you want to be good, you can be balanced. But if you want to be great, you'll never be balanced. That is the sacrifice you make for greatness." And I just was completely blown away because I'd been training people for balance—you know, those three things that I talked about. And then as I learned more about greatness, there's a great book called Relentless by Tim Grover, and it speaks to those athletes that are relentless. And Kelly Slater is a great example in our sport—of doing whatever it takes to be better, to never be satisfied with the job that you did today because tomorrow is a new day. And so, not the healthiest for all of us to get into that mindset—I promise you that. But it's really great for me, working with parents that have kids that they are aspiring to be great at what they do. And I don't care if that's a musician or an athlete or an artist or an academic—if you want to be great, you're going to be different. The sacrifices that you make to be great will not allow you to go to all the birthday parties and go to prom and be popular with this or that group. You are going to be solely focused on greatness. And greatness has everything—one lane. And so that to me has been a great lesson to be able to talk to the parents with intelligence and say, "This is not just coming from me. This is coming from some of the greatest. And if you want your kid to be great, you're going to sacrifice your kid's normalcy. And if that's cool with you, then... I don't know if it's cool with your kid. But that's what it takes to be great." So I not only have a tremendous amount of respect for those that are great—Neil Young is great. He's a little odd, you know? Sorry, Neil. But that's what greatness requires—that you have to go off. So I don't know why I got onto that tangent.

Dr. Tim Brown
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Because there's nobody that's ever been balanced. And I mean, for my first 35 years, I taught balance—until I had the honor to work with Kobe Bryant quite a bit. And ended up meeting up with him about three months before he passed, again. And he was working with us with the U.S. Surf Team. Really. And so he brought and wanted to talk story and talked about balance with Kobe. And one of the girls that was trying for the surf team, I remember, asked, "Well, Kobe, I too want to be the best in the world at what I do." She was a water polo player and Olympian, and now she wanted to be a surfing Olympian. And so she goes, "But I'm having a problem with my family sharing—trying to become balanced, you know, between my family and my work and my job and my sport—that I want to be the best in the world at." She goes, "Well, Kobe, I know you want to be the best in the world. How did you balance that out?" And he goes, "Look, you have to do one thing first and foremost, and that's lose the word balance." And I just went, "What?" And he goes, "There is no balance in greatness. If you want to be good, you can be balanced. But if you want to be great, you'll never be balanced. That is the sacrifice you make for greatness." And I just was completely blown away because I'd been training people for balance—you know, those three things that I talked about. And then as I learned more about greatness, there's a great book called Relentless by Tim Grover, and it speaks to those athletes that are relentless. And Kelly Slater is a great example in our sport—of doing whatever it takes to be better, to never be satisfied with the job that you did today because tomorrow is a new day. And so, not the healthiest for all of us to get into that mindset—I promise you that. But it's really great for me, working with parents that have kids that they are aspiring to be great at what they do. And I don't care if that's a musician or an athlete or an artist or an academic—if you want to be great, you're going to be different. The sacrifices that you make to be great will not allow you to go to all the birthday parties and go to prom and be popular with this or that group. You are going to be solely focused on greatness. And greatness has everything—one lane. And so that to me has been a great lesson to be able to talk to the parents with intelligence and say, "This is not just coming from me. This is coming from some of the greatest. And if you want your kid to be great, you're going to sacrifice your kid's normalcy. And if that's cool with you, then... I don't know if it's cool with your kid. But that's what it takes to be great." So I not only have a tremendous amount of respect for those that are great—Neil Young is great. He's a little odd, you know? Sorry, Neil. But that's what greatness requires—that you have to go off. So I don't know why I got onto that tangent.

Michael Frampton
That. I like that. And it's good for us as the average athlete to realize that and just set our goals to just be good or better. But what I do like about that is because the great ones—the pioneers, let's call them—they go so into it and so far into it that they help people. People like you who work with that level, you can then translate and figure out what works the best because you're working with the great, the obsessed. And you can translate that into what can we take out of that and put into an everyday life. For example, it's like, well, you and I, we love surfing. We do want to be better. We want to age gracefully and keep surfing. What can we learn from those people today? About how—what to eat. Because we eat anyway. We're going to spend time with meal prep and choosing the right foods. So how do we improve what we're already doing? And we probably already do some other exercise other than surfing, whether that's running or going to the gym or whatever it is. So how can we improve and refine that so that we can be better at surfing and improve our long-term relationship with surfing? So I think good is—and better is—great for us. We can let go of the greatness. Because you're right.

Dr. Tim Brown
It's the progress. Not perfection. You know, when you're looking for perfection, you take a lot of the fun out of it. And for me, the fun better be in the process. With regards to surfing... you're going to be a bummed out guy all the time—or gal. So the process has to be enjoyable. You have to really love that process. And so for me, you know, that includes a lot of laughing, a lot of fun. Along with following the examples of Kellys, the Johns, the Micks—all those guys that have come kind of a little bit before the group that's coming up now—and emulate them. Follow the things that you can and just follow their example. And mimic it. Mimic perfection. It's not a bad thing. At all. You know, you've got to practice that. To make yourself better, you've got to go on this journey that's going to put you into some discomfort. If you're not in discomfort from time to time, you're not growing. And so doing some of these things that the best of the best do is going to not only improve your game, but get you going in that direction. And get your lifestyle and your habits going into a routine that the best of the best have. Because that's what another piece of it is. And again, you spoke about the Kelee meditation—one of the best meditation practices I've ever seen in practice. I mean, you can get it. You can become—you can get a meditation the first time that you try it. And that, for me, is just really wonderful. So I'm stoked that both Matt and Taylor are going to take the time to teach that to a lot of people in our upcoming little seminar here. Because meditation, being able to come into focus, to be able to drop off all the noise and just be, is education that everyone needs to graduate from.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Exactly. And that's exactly it. I mean... the Mind and Movement Masterclass. You've got the best of the best all coming together. You've got yourself, you've got Michael Rintala, Taylor Knox, Matt Griggs. I think even Ron himself is coming along as well at some point. Yeah. And just getting together and imparting enough for the average athlete to take away and improve their lives. I think that's a beautiful philosophy and I wish I was still in America. I could come along. But I didn’t, it to you.

Dr. Tim Brown
Hey, we're going to record that for everybody. Happy to send.

Michael Frampton
Okay, cool. Will that be available for those who can't make it as well later on down the line?

Dr. Tim Brown
Yes, it will.

Michael Frampton
Awesome. Well, Tim, thank you so much for taking the time to give us a little bit of a taste of what is up and coming and for sharing your stories. Thank you so much.

Michael Frampton
Okay, awesome. Well, Tim, thank you so much for taking the time to give us a little bit of a taste of what is up and coming and for sharing your stories. Thank you so much.

Dr. Tim Brown
Absolutely a pleasure and an honor. Nice to meet you, Michael. And thank you for all you're doing to elevate those that are in our sport and to make it more enjoyable so that people can surf for life.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, that's what it's about, man. Just keep surfing. Word. This thing coming up—the Mind and Movement Masterclass—is this the second time it's happened or how many times have you run it?

Taylor Knox
Well, yeah, it is the second time. You're right. We did it last year in a pretty small place just to kind of feel it out, see how the turnout was, and the turnout was great. It sold out pretty quickly. Of course, now that I'm an ambassador with Vuori, they built a new headquarters here with a beautiful outdoor amphitheater at their place, at their headquarters. And it has a screen and stuff. So we're going to do it there. And it'll hold like three times as many people. We're thinking maybe 100, or 80—we're not sure what the count will be—but we're pretty excited about partnering up with them because that's what they're all about. And then we'll be bringing in some of their employees as well. Yeah. And it's been a beautiful journey. For me, after three decades of traveling the world and working with the best, I've always watched where guys wanted to go and who they wanted to work with. And Tim Brown was always the guy that everyone was looking for at the contest when he was working. And when I saw the other physicians watching Tim as well, I'm like, okay, well, this guy's onto something here. He obviously is—people are watching him for a reason. So he'll be there, and he's going to be talking about diet, movement, nutrition, sleep, and stuff like that. We're going to have my trainer, Mike Rintala, there. He's one of the best, if not the best, in America for Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization—DNS. He's a doctor, a chiropractor, and that's who I've been training with for the last seven years. So I really have enjoyed working with him. He's got a really evenly-keeled demeanor. And now that I'm so deeply into DNS, it's just been a fantastic journey of learning how to move and what my body does—what I didn't think it could do anymore, it's doing again. Which is just kind of turning back the clock a little bit, which is strange. You just don't know if it can ever happen. Sometimes you're like, am I just a fool right now? Am I barking up the wrong tree? And so far, the tree keeps giving. So I'm going to keep going up the tree with him for a while. Of course, Matt and I will be talking about surf technique, Kelee meditation—the journeys we've been on with healing meditation, why and how we found it, and why we stuck with it. Then the founder of the Healy Foundation, Ron Rathbun, is going to show up and he's going to speak and answer questions as well. So it'll be good. We're going to have a lot of cool prizes and giveaways and raffles and good food. So it'll be a good day.

Michael Frampton
I mean, you're a perfect icon of that sort of surf performance and health longevity. So is it sort of an accumulation of that and teaching what you've learned over the years to a wider audience?

Taylor Knox
Essentially? Yeah. I mean, for sure, it's always been a passion. Because when I went to France or South Africa, I'd always be looking for the best guys—trainers, masseuses. I would ask the local guys that lived there, "Where do you train and who do you get to work on your body?" And so I was constantly looking. I don't know, it's just something I've been naturally interested in. I want to learn all I can. Fix the body yourself, or at least find people that can help guide you in that direction. And I just believe that decades of surfing around the world and traveling really give you insight. Like, 100 million people may say this one thing over here is the best thing you've ever done in your life. And then you might find some guy that trains differently in Africa that no one's ever heard of and go, "I don't know, this guy over here that no one's given attention to actually is onto something. He's like a mad scientist in his own little world over here." And just because he doesn't have the followers, I really believe in what he's doing. So, you know, that's what it is for me. There's a golden thread of truth in everything I've come across, and I've come across a lot. And for me, this is assembling the dream team. And hopefully, we'd like to add some more people to it as well—add more modalities down the road. It's kind of just the beginning. This is just the beginning of the vision that Tim and Mike and Matt and I have. We want to create a community where the bright minds that really help people around the world get together. Because if you ever meet anyone and they're like, "Yeah, I have all the answers," then that would be a big warning sign to me—because no one does. And I want to get all these guys together in the same room and talk and hear their opinions and what they think. You know, how would you go about a torn hamstring? Well, Tim might go about it one way and Mike might go about it another way. I love how each one attacks it. So that's been my thought with putting this little team together—something we can do moving forward.

Michael Frampton
Have you had any injuries recently?

Michael Rintala
Yep. Hamstring?

Dr. Tim Brown
Hamstring?

Taylor Knox
Since I saw you, I tore my adductor off. In one leg, I tore a hamstring in the other leg. And now I'm kind of dealing with a real sore hip. But my knee has come back amazing, you know, which has been a beauty. That thing really tortured me for like a decade—three surgeries. The last one and the training I did worked out well. Of course, with my style of surfing, my back leg has gotten a lot of use. There's a lot of wheel, you know, and I don't think I need surgery at the moment, but it's something I need to take care of for sure.

Michael Frampton
Having that turnaround of your knee, what do you put that down to?

Taylor Knox
Well, first of all, this new technology that came out for surgery—where they can do a partial knee replacement. And like, Dr. Warren Kramer did my surgery. He does a lot of guys that go through injuries in surfing. Most of the top dudes go to him. But he goes, "Hold on. You might be a perfect candidate. There's this robot. I'm getting this robot." And I...

Michael Frampton
Sounds like a robot. That sounds kind of sketchy.

Taylor Knox
You know, like... And he's like, "No, it's great. Human hands can shake a little bit. They can, you know—the human eye—there’s just room for error. With a machine, there's no error." So anyway, I went in and I did it. And I was like the ninth person—I think first person for sure. And the rehab is—you know, you gotta be really dedicated to rehab. And I was. And it's turned out to be a great way. I've gotten way more out of my knee than I ever dreamed about. And I'm living pain-free.

Michael Frampton
Partial knee replacement? So what—they just replaced the cartilage? What do they replace?

Taylor Knox
Well, imagine—so my lateral meniscus wore out, which is the outside of your knee. I got to be bone on bone, and then that was really painful. And, you know, basically, I couldn't surf. So what they do is—it's kind of like they go in and it's like a router, right? They'll take a CT scan of your knee, your tibia plateau, so that the robot knows what it's working with. It kind of locks into the CT scan and your bone. And then it's like a router. It goes in there and just routers out the bone and puts in a titanium plate. And then a titanium plate above. So it's just two titanium plates that are rubbed together. So, you know, there's no pain. They never wear out.

Michael Frampton
Wow. So you don't need another surgery for the rest of your life? That's cool.

Taylor Knox
Yeah. It is cool. It's really cool. Because without that, my career would have been over a couple of years ago. Total knee replacement used to be the only option, but it turns out it's not.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, well, I'm bone on bone now with my knee because I had ACL surgery, you know, 20 years ago, and the cartilage finally wore out. So it's bone on bone. And, you know, the surgeon said, "Look, total knee replacement is the only option," but it turns out it's not.

Taylor Knox
Yeah, the machine is called Mako—like Mako Shark—M-A-K-O. And they're using them a lot over here. I think they're actually starting to use them for hips as well. Yeah, a little scary, you know, like what if the robot skips out or something?

Michael Frampton
Well, the future is bright.

Taylor Knox
But no, it was a really good experience.

Michael Frampton
And the rehab? Was that Mike?

Taylor Knox
That was Mike and another friend of mine named Gina Stinko, and he does ART—which is active release technique. Yeah, and he's one of the top—yeah, I mean, he's definitely in the top three of the country. He's on the board and stuff. He's an instructor, traveling around with a golfer.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. So it's obvious—if there's no more friction from bone on bone, there's going to be less swelling, I assume?

Taylor Knox
There's no swelling. There's no swelling at all.

Michael Frampton
Wow. So does it feel better than your other knee?

Taylor Knox
It does. My knee hasn't felt this good in like 15 years.

Michael Frampton
Wow.

Taylor Knox
Yeah, my other knee is still good. It's fine. It's funny because all the issues are going on the right side of my body, which—you know—that's my power leg. On my left side, my body's great. I have no problems over there at all.

Michael Rintala
Funny. Okay. There are probably a lot of listeners that won't be able to make it to this seminar. What can we leave—what's one piece of advice we can leave them with—for surfing longevity?

Michael Frampton
Wow. Okay. There are probably a lot of listeners that won't be able to make it to this seminar. What can we leave—what's one piece of advice we can leave them with—for surfing longevity?

Taylor Knox
Surfing longevity. I mean, I just did a little film with Vuori called The Body Follows the Mind. And it's true. You know? How you heal is going to be how you feel. So you should feel good about your process and your rehabbing. I really feel like—and people know this—that stress can affect the body. And just think about stress—it can be little or extreme. But your feelings and how you feel about what you're doing and how your life is going is a big factor. It has a big determination on your healing. So I always tell people, don't be hard on yourself. Don’t beat yourself up. Beating yourself up isn't going to help. It's definitely not the way to get better at anything. I used to do that a lot—beat myself up. So I learned that instead of beating yourself up, try to just focus on where you want to go in life. You're going to have challenges—we all do. Nobody's immune to that, that’s for sure. But always know that when you find your center, it never has to do with anyone else. It’s something very personal to you. Try to look within for all your answers is what I’m trying to say. And I think when you can get your own blocks out of your own way, you’ll find all the answers you’re looking for.

Michael Frampton
I like that. I like that. And I think it was episode 34 where you and I first did this podcast, and we went into that in a lot more detail. So I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes for those listening. Yeah. Awesome, Taylor. Well, thank you so much for coming back on to chat about this.

Taylor Knox
Thanks a lot too for having me on, Michael. Appreciate it. And the Mindful Masterclass.

Michael Frampton
For being involved with the up-and-coming movement and Mindful Masterclass. Tim and I did—Tim Brown?

Michael Rintala
So it was kind of... Did you go to the one that Tim and I did? Tim Brown?

Michael Frampton
It was—we did—yeah. At Huntington Beach. I forget what we called it. Mind and Mood? Something similar, something Masterclass. So we took that idea. And then just working with Taylor, it was like, we should do something DNS surfing-based. Which we did. We did some stuff. I've done some stuff with Tim Brown. And then last year we did another DNS surf with Taylor, and then Tim talked as well. But then we just had that inspiration or idea—it’s like, hey, why don’t we combine the movement with the mind, the meditation, the Kelee meditation. So we started—had that idea of putting something together. And then we wanted to make it a little more surf specific. So we brought Tim on—Tim Brown. Have you had a session with him yet?

Michael Rintala
Yes. So, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I had a good chat with him. Yep. Yeah, we were just like, okay, let’s put it all together. And we did it last year around the same time, and we really enjoyed it. The people that were there enjoyed it. So we’re like, okay, let’s do it again. But this time, the setting will be different. It'll be at Vuori—at their headquarters, which has a nice outdoor setup, like little steps, like a stadium. They have a big screen we can use. So, yeah, we’re going to make it happen for the second time.

Michael Rintala
Yeah, he's a good chatter. And so, yeah, we just liked—okay, let’s put it all together. And we did it last year around the same time, and we really enjoyed it. The people that were there enjoyed it. So we’re like, okay, let’s do it again. But this time the setting will be different. It'll be at Vuori—their headquarters. Which has a nice outdoor space, like little stadium steps. They have a big screen we can use. So, yeah, we're going to make it happen for the second time.

Michael Frampton
Cool. Thanks. Movement to blend mind and—

Michael Rintala
You know how to blend mind and body. The more you learn about the human body and the human condition, I think the more you understand there isn't really much separation between the two.

Michael Frampton
Yep. The more you learn about the human body and the human condition, the more you understand there isn't really much separation between the two. So, yeah, it’s already part of the central nervous system, part of the mind. And then the big thing with Kelee—being able to quiet or focus the mind—balances the autonomic nervous system. So you have sympathetic and parasympathetic. The better that’s balanced, the better you can express the inborn motor patterns that we’re all born with. That’s where DNS—Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization—and movement efficiency comes into it. So if you balance the mind, you balance the body. Then you produce durability, longevity, and movement quality. So yes, having both is going to be best for long term.

Michael Rintala
Right. Yeah. I mean, with DNS—Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization—the central nervous system is basically controlling the synergy, coordination, and timing of all the musculature to produce efficient movement. So, yeah, it’s already part of the central nervous system—part of the mind. And the big thing with Kelee—being able to quiet or focus the mind—balances the autonomic nervous system. So you have sympathetic and parasympathetic. The better that’s balanced, the better you can express the inborn motor patterns we’re all born with. And that’s where DNS—the dynamic neuromuscular stabilization—comes in with movement efficiency. So if you balance the mind, you balance the body, then you produce durability and longevity of movement quality. So yes, having both is best for the long term.

Michael Frampton
I see a lot of similarities, because in a lot of ways, meditation is actually about doing less. It's about allowing the present moment to be louder than all the other stuff. It’s about taking away. And then DNS is kind of similar, right? It’s about allowing efficient movement, rather than you getting in the way or trying to force anything. Then, if we see compensatory or high-threshold patterns of movement—which are going to get in the way of efficiency—then we give people things to do and train to quiet those compensatory or high-threshold patterns, and then be able to express those inborn patterns. And when you’re able to express those patterns, it’s not cortical function—you’re not overthinking it—you’re just expressing it. Then you’re moving naturally without thinking about it. So yes, similarities with the goal of meditation.

Michael Rintala
Exactly. It’s allowing the inborn, hardwired motor patterns to express themselves. They’re all in our subcortical region of the central nervous system. And if we can let them express themselves how they’re supposed to be expressed, then the movement efficiency improves. So, the one thing initially with DNS is—usually when we assess—we’ll assess the efficiency of the movement quality, efficiency or inefficiency. And then, if we see compensatory or high-threshold patterns of movement—which will get in the way of efficiency—then we give people things to do and train to quiet those compensatory or high-threshold patterns. And then, be able to express those inborn patterns. And when you’re able to express those patterns, it’s not the cortical function—you’re not overthinking it—you’re just expressing it. And then you're moving naturally without thinking about it. So yes, similarities with the goal of meditation.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's a good summary. And the thing I like—before I did your course, I remember there was a group, I think it was DNS for Surfing from memory. I'd already done probably 50 one-on-one DNS sessions, and I'd done, I think, Level 1—the introduction course to DNS—and it was all very technical and quite heady, even for someone sort of coming from that health and fitness world. But what I really liked about the course with you and your wife is you guys just simplified it so much. And made it very practical. So I think there were even some people there who weren’t from a health and fitness background that could get it as well.

Michael Rintala
The goal with the Mind and Movement Masterclass is more of that—like move, simplify it—whereas the coursework, yeah, you know, you dive deeper into the developmental kinesiology and central nervous system. And it can—especially when you're first taking courses, like the introduction—be a little bit overwhelming. But the ultimate goal is the movement, right? Teaching-wise, for me, learning—if I can move, I can feel it—then I integrate it better. And so that's my style of teaching. Okay, let's move and let's feel it. And let’s feel what we talk about with the coursework.

Michael Frampton
I remember the photo you guys had—there were a couple of photos of, I think, Kelly Slater and John John—just in a nice, relaxed, efficient surf stance. And then next to it was one of the DNS pictures of the infant. And the correlations are just so obvious.

Michael Rintala
The athletes that rise to the top and are the top performers—they have that ability to express those inborn motor patterns on the subcortical central nervous system level. But they have really good cortical function, meaning awareness—awareness of their environment. They can input information from the environment, process it, and then express what needs to be done to move within that environment. And so, like Kelly Slater, John John, other athletes—Michael Jordan, Roger Federer—you see the athletes that you watch them and they just move. It’s like they move so effortlessly. And that’s just that quality of the expression of those patterns. And the athletes that have that ability and have that efficiency, they not only move efficiently, but they have that ability to relax and be more efficient people. As to where they need to stabilize in order to conserve energy and again, move with efficiency. Versus athletes that rely more on the high-threshold compensatory pattern, and you see tension. They still do well, but they have to rely more on speed and strength. Whereas the really efficient movers, they just make it look so effortless and they’re so relaxed. And then with that, you see longevity and durability throughout their career. So when we do the Mind and Movement Masterclass, we’re going to be talking about that. We’re going to be giving people tools, movement-wise, to help them achieve that. But then yeah, with the Kelee meditation, we’re going to be addressing the mind as well—just as much, if not more.

Michael Frampton
Important. Yeah. No, they go hand in hand. And then Tim obviously is going to be talking about nutrition and sleep and stuff as well. So it’s very holistic. And if you want to get better at surfing—and if you want to surf until you’re, you know, in your eighties—then it really is that simple: learn how to move better. Really. I mean, surfing is movement. And the best surfers in the world move really efficiently. And you can even see in the background on the DNS poster behind you—for those that are watching—is the first image there of the baby lying down. I mean, that’s a surfer paddling. Simple as that.

Michael Rintala
Yeah. Like right there maybe? Yeah. And here—popping up.

Michael Frampton
Exactly. Yep, the first image—that’s the surfer paddling. Popping up.

Michael Rintala
That poster—that represents... So when we're first born, our central nervous system is immature. Functionally and structurally, we’re immature, right? And as the central nervous system matures and our body matures, there are certain periods of time—developmental milestones—where we can achieve different positions because we’re expressing those inborn motor patterns differently. So you see the infant—this is at three months right here—you have the ability to create a stable point through the trunk and pelvis. You can lift the head. You can start to look around or lift your feet out of the base of support. But then, as everything matures, you start to become more dynamic and you can get to higher, more unstable positions. The central nervous system expresses these inborn motor patterns as they are maturing, and eventually, you're standing. That position right there—yeah. So oblique squat—that’s a common one when you pop up and you’re on the board and you’re maneuvering and surfing. And the thing too—it’s like if you look at the whole sequence from prone—that’s kind of like your pop-up, right? Your pop-up, you come to standing, and then you’re down into the position and maneuvering on the wave. When the infant is going through this development, they’re not thinking, “Put my foot here, put my hand here.” They’re just expressing the patterns that are facilitated at certain periods of time during that first 18 months of life. And if we develop in a healthy way, in a healthy environment, those patterns—we still have them up here. So as adults, we can still tap into that. We can still create that quality of synergy, coordination, and timing throughout the chains of movement. And there are ways—again, with specific exercises and the movements and the quality of support—where we can improve that expression. If we improve that expression, we improve movement quality. We create durability and longevity. And it’s something you can practice—it’s like a movement meditation. A lot of the athletes that I work with—surfers, baseball players, and others—the big thing we do is we give them these series or similar positions, but then being able to transition from one position to the next so they’re constantly reinforcing this ideal expression. Then, when they paddle out, they’re popping up—that’s expressing itself. And so you can use it. It’s a great movement preparation for people to utilize in whatever their sport may be. And in this case, the focus will be more on the surf athlete.

Michael Frampton
So, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the show, and I urge people to get along to it. There’ll be links in the show notes to everything. And I would have done a big intro before this to explain it all. Thanks, Michael. Appreciate it. Awesome.

Michael Rintala
Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Great to see you again.

Michael Frampton
I’ve got another question for you while I’ve got you on the phone, actually. What are your thoughts on vestibular and ocular training?

Michael Rintala
I think it's great. Especially as part of the somatosensory input. So input from the environment—the better that quality of input, the better you can process and provide optimal output. We talk about with DNS and the central nervous system—there are inborn motor patterns. But a huge factor is your quality of somatosensory input and awareness—cortical function. So it's a great adjunct to the DNS work. And one thing I really enjoy about DNS is it’s not something where it's like, “Stop doing that, just do this.” You can integrate DNS concepts and principles into whatever you're doing—weightlifting, visual training, vestibular training. So it's great. Everything kind of works together. DNS is like the fascia or the connection between everything that helps it all work together more efficiently.

Michael Frampton
Okay. Yeah. I’ve done the Dr. Cobb from Z-Health—I’ve done his courses on ocular and vestibular. Any other resources in that regard you’ve come across or would recommend?

Michael Rintala
I've done those courses as well. I highly recommend them. There are some PhD students out of Prague School of Rehabilitation that are focusing on exactly what you described. I’m hoping in 2025 to get them over here and integrate the two. So stay tuned on that.

Michael Frampton
Cool. That’s exciting. So adding some DNS thinking to Dr. Cobb’s sort of work—is that what they’re doing? I think Posture Pro is another one. I can’t remember the exact name, but I forget her name. Great integration with that training as well. I think it—they—it’s perfect. They go hand in hand.

Michael Rintala
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, yeah, other than Z-Health, I really like it. I think there are some other resources out there. I think Posture Pro is another one. I can’t remember the exact name, but yeah, I forget her name. Great integration with that training as well. I think they go hand in hand.

Michael Frampton
Posture Pro—they combine it with a lot of footwork as well.

Michael Rintala
Huge thing to integrate. There’s so much—so many things you can integrate and put together to help us move better and feel better.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I know, there’s a lot out there. You’ve got to find the time, but you’re the body. And I urge everyone listening to head along and join in. The link’s in the show notes. Again, Michael, thank you for your time. Appreciate it. I’ll let you go. Thank you.

105 Dr. Tim Brown + Taylor Knox + Michael Rintala

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

Are you training like a surfer—or just training like a dude in the gym?

In this episode, exercise physiologist and World Surf League performance expert Candice Land reveals why most female surfers are unknowingly training against their own biology. From misunderstood core stability to the underrated power of the vestibular system, this conversation redefines surf fitness for the modern woman.

• Learn why your pelvis—not your abs—is the real key to injury-free, powerful surfing

• Discover the three-pillar training system designed specifically for female surfers across all stages of life

• Understand how to use your cycle, nervous system, and movement patterns to surf with more confidence and energy

Hit play now to uncover the science-backed approach that’s helping female surfers build smarter, safer, and more powerful bodies for the waves.

Resources:

• Visit The Female Surfer for more information on Candice’s programs and resources for female surfers.

• Follow Candice on Instagram: @thefemalesurfer

Sponsor for this episode is Flatrock Wetsuits, head to https://flatrockwetsuits.com.au and use code MASTER15  at checkout for 15% off.

Key Points

• Candice Land, an exercise physiologist for the World Surf League and creator of thefemalesurfer.com, discusses her background and current work in human performance and surf conditioning.

• Candice Land explains how her background in martial arts and her experience in various sports have influenced her surfing and her approach to training.

• Candice Land discusses the unique challenges of surfing compared to other sports, emphasizing the importance of the vestibular system and proprioception.

• Candice Land and Michael discuss the similarities between surfing and martial arts, particularly in terms of energy transfer and the use of the environment.

• Candice Land explains how fear and instability can influence movement and performance in surfing, emphasizing the importance of understanding one's own body and movement patterns.

• Candice Land discusses the importance of movement efficiency and the role of the pelvis in female athletes, particularly in relation to lower limb injuries and overall performance.

• Candice Land emphasizes the importance of understanding one's own body and training in a way that suits individual needs, rather than adhering to rigid frameworks.

• Candice Land discusses the importance of vestibular and ocular training for surfers, particularly in relation to balance, vision, and decision-making under pressure.

• Candice Land provides recommendations for female recreational surfers, emphasizing the importance of understanding one's own biology, physiology, and fluctuations across the lifespan.

• Candice Land introduces her pillar-based training system for female surfers, focusing on core stability, upper body development, and lower body development. 

Outline

Background and Introduction

• Candice Land is an exercise physiologist for the World Surf League and creator of thefemalesurfer.com.

• Thefemalesurfer.com offers surf conditioning programs specializing in female athletes and recreational surfers.

• Candice has been in the field of human performance for about 20 years.

• Candice initially enrolled in sports psychology but ended up in sport and exercise science.

• Candice was exposed to surfing at the age of 25 while living in Ireland.

• Before surfing, Candice was involved in various sports including martial arts, rowing, mountain biking, touch football, and netball.

Surfing and Martial Arts

• Candice believes that martial arts, particularly Taekwondo, have helped her surfing by improving focus, calmness, and core connection.

• Surfing is described as a unique sport due to its reliance on the vestibular and proprioceptive systems.

• Candice considers herself an intermediate to advanced intermediate surfer.

• Kelly Slater once described surfing as a martial art, highlighting the similarities in energy transfer and danger management.

Fear and Surfing

• Fear can influence surfing biomechanics and physiology, leading to adaptations such as crouching or adopting a 'poo stance'.

• The brain's priority is to keep the surfer safe, which can result in biomechanical and physiological changes when feeling fearful.

• Surfing is a sensory-based sport that relies heavily on proprioception and the vestibular system rather than the visual system.

Movement Efficiency and Training

• Candice and Michael emphasize the importance of movement efficiency in athletic performance, particularly in surfing.

• They discuss the evolutionary aspect of human movement, designed for efficiency and survival.

• Candice highlights the importance of pelvic alignment and stability in female athletes to enhance efficiency and reduce injuries.

• DNS (Dynamic Neuromuscular Stabilization) principles are used to reorganize faulty movement patterns and improve efficiency.

Training Female Athletes

• Candice discusses the differences in skeletal framework and muscle fibers between male and female athletes.

• She emphasizes the importance of pelvic alignment, core stability, and functional core stability in training female athletes.

• Candice advocates for a versatile approach to training, incorporating both strength and conditioning with DNS principles.

• She stresses the need for athlete-centered training that considers individual needs and fluctuations across the lifespan.

Vestibular and Ocular Training

• Candice and Michael discuss the importance of vestibular and ocular training for surfers.

• They mention the use of strobe glasses, slow blinking, and Z Health techniques to enhance vestibular and ocular skills.

• Vestibular training is highlighted for its role in improving balance, spatial awareness, and decision-making under pressure.

• Cognitive training is also discussed as a way to enhance VO2 max and overall athletic performance.

Recommendations for Female Surfers

• Candice advises female surfers to pay attention to their own cycles and biological rhythms to better understand their training needs.

• She emphasizes the importance of core stability as a foundational element for injury prevention and performance enhancement.

• Candice developed a female surfer screening protocol and the pillar system to help female surfers identify their specific needs and improve their surfing.

• The pillar system includes courses on core stability, upper body development, and lower body development.

Transcription

Michael Frampton
So now I'm here. Oh, cool. So what, by way of intro, could you tell us a little bit of your background and what you're currently doing?

Candice Land
Sure. So I'll flip it around and start with the end first. I'm currently managing Female Surfer, which is something I created to ensure that female athletes and female surfers have the toolkit that they need to perform at their best. So that's currently what I'm doing. But I've been in the world of human performance for about 20 years now. So I've been in exercise, which seems crazy, actually. It seems like I just graduated from uni yesterday. But yeah, I've been an exercise physiologist now for nearly 20 years. So delving into the world of human performance and how we can make that better.

Michael Frampton
Oh, wow. So did you dive straight into that world as soon as you left school?

Candice Land
Fun fact, I actually was initially enrolled in sport psychology. I was always an athlete at school, so I always had that kind of interest. I don't understand how we're supposed to even know what we want to do when we finish high school. For some reason I didn't get into sport psychology, but I'm so grateful that I didn't. I ended up getting into sport and exercise science with a good friend of mine. She went on to physiotherapy and I stayed on as an exercise physiologist. And I'm one of those lucky people that this is my passion and this is what I love. So from the get-go, this is what I've been, I guess, I feel pulled to do. So I just stayed an exercise physiologist that whole time.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, awesome. When did surfing come into the picture?

Candice Land
Late. I played a lot of sports growing up but living in the tropics, obviously we've got the Great Barrier Reef. So I wasn't exposed to surfing until I lived in Ireland when I was about 25. So that's when I got exposed to surfing because I said to myself, when the weather is good, I don't want to be in a capital city. I want to be out enjoying this beautiful country, and I ended up in a small fishing village in Kincasslagh and was just like, wow. Firstly, the beaches are stunning. And secondly, I wanted to do something really random. So I was like, I'd love to just learn how to surf over here. And then I ended up living with the lads that ran the surf school. So I just got to tag along with them.

Michael Frampton
So at 25, that's not very late.

Candice Land
Yeah, that was only five years ago. No, it was a while ago. Longer than I would like to mention.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. What was your main sport before surfing came into play?

Candice Land
Before I went travelling overseas, I was big into martial arts. I actually represented Australia in Taekwondo. So that was my passion. But prior to that, I was competing in rowing and mountain bike riding, played touch footy, netball. Name it, I did it. Yeah, so a bit of an all-rounder when it comes to sport.

Michael Frampton
Do you think your high-level athletic background helped you to learn surfing faster than others?

Candice Land
No. I think surfing is really unique as a sport. In some ways, yes. I think martial arts, which I still train to this day, really helps my surfing. It really helps with focus and being able to stay calm in the water as well, and it also helps me to feel more connected on the board as well. There's a lot of breath work and stuff that goes in with Taekwondo that I think really helps with that core connection. But I feel like surfing is such a unique sport because nothing is ever the same and you don't surf how you look. It's such an internal representation on the brain. So you know when you surf and you think you surf a particular way, but then you see a video of yourself and you're like, well, that's not how surfing feels to me. It's the way the brain puts it all together. It's so reliant on the vestibular system and the proprioceptive system that it's a very internal visual thing. So for me, surfing, I would say I'm an intermediate to advanced intermediate surfer, but I wouldn't say that I'm epic at it, and it's something I'll have to spend my whole lifetime learning. So it's been the hardest sport for me to do well.

Michael Frampton
Mm, it is hard. I think Laird Hamilton once said that surfing is a martial art.

Candice Land
Interesting perspective.

Michael Frampton
Mm, I think, and especially, I mean, he's a high level. I think you also hear high-level martial artists saying that when you get to a certain level, it's kind of like you're dancing with danger, with your opponent. And I think that's why Laird described it like that, because essentially the best surfers in the world, they surf closest to the power. Did you do video analysis in the martial arts world as well and was it a similar thing?

Candice Land
No, interestingly my martial arts felt like the way that it looked. I don't know if it's because it's in a more closed environment, the floor surface is always the same, you can orientate yourself better in space because the world around you isn't shifting, the horizon's fixed. That enabled me to have a more realistic representation of where my body was in space. So when I did the martial arts I knew when I was executing a move. And also it's so easy to repeat it in the same environment. It's such a repetitive thing, so you get to really hone in and focus your technique so you get used to the sensation of feeling that it is, whereas unless you're a surf athlete that gets to experience or surf very consistent waves, 15–20 hours a week, you don't get that opportunity for repetition. So I don't know whether those things kind of play into it, where it enabled me to have more movement accuracy. So it felt like the way that it looked. I'm not sure.

Michael Frampton ([email protected])
Yeah, I think that's got a lot to do with it for sure, because, you know, you might be into surfing and maybe if you're lucky two minutes of that is actually surfing a wave.

Candice Land
Yeah, time on the wave, that's right.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, I think, I've had a lot of footage of me taken through coaching sessions and stuff. And I think anyone who's seen themselves surf will relate to the fact that it looks completely different to how it felt. And even the pros. I remember Matt Griggs mentioning that Mick Fanning often found that, and Taylor Knox as well. And they said they often found that sometimes the footage they watched that looked the most extreme, like had the most spray and looked like they were doing the biggest turn, was the wave that actually felt the smoothest.

Candice Land
Yes.

Michael Frampton
Not necessarily the most sort of stops, where you think there might be more spray.

Candice Land
Yes, that doesn't surprise me one bit when you understand biomechanics and human movement and the design of the human body and how we're designed for variability of movement. We're designed for efficiency in movement. That's what the human body is designed for. So when you hear comments like that, that makes perfect sense to me.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Do you think that part of the reason that we sort of have that mismatch in internal and visual representation? Do you think that's part of fear as we sort of crouch down and we feel safer when we're surfing, we end up in a bit of a poo stance?

Candice Land
This is really interesting because this is bringing up a conversation that I had with one of the surf coaches from Surfing Australia very recently, and we were talking about these sorts of things, like what we're talking about, in the context of stability and core stability and how underestimated it is in surf training and surf conditioning. And what is the actual purpose of surf conditioning and what should it be involving and all those sorts of things. And movement is a communication mode in the body, right? So movement tells the brain lots of different things, but it works the other way around as well so that your cognitive processes can very much influence your movement. So, for example, for me, I know when I feel uncertain, unstable, I'm in a new environment, the wave feels a little bit different, or I'm on a board that's a little bit funky, I don't think I've got the right board for the conditions, my surfing style, I'll compress far more because there is a lack of trust through the nervous system based on those parameters. So I do think that fear can definitely, it has to be able to have that sort of influence because it's all, it's like this cyclical communication because the brain is always trying to figure out what is the best movement option. The main priority of the brain is to keep you safe. So in that time, if you're feeling fearful, there will be a biomechanical and physiological adaptation to that because it's the number one priority.

Michael Frampton
And that's happening whether you're aware of the fear or not.

Candice Land
Exactly. Yeah. It's a very perceptual thing. Surfing is very much a sensory-based sport. You don't have a lot of time to think on a wave, and the brain is picking up a lot of information and we manage a lot through proprioception and the vestibular system, more so than the visual system, and more with those two elements of nervous system control. So, it's so cool how you need to do this as a...

Michael Frampton
So, what were you looking at, the discussion you were having with this person you mentioned just at the start of that bit? Any conclusions or?

Candice Land
Yeah, we're both big believers in creating a more efficient athlete. I'm a big believer in the fact that we have more available to us than we realize. If we just look at emotions or maybe like a framework issue like misalignment or something along those lines, there's factors that can play into how efficient we are as athletes. We're so—I'm generalising by saying we—but I'm concerned that as a culture, now we're so motivated to just kind of go hardcore and to go straight into strength and conditioning and to look at strength and to look at load and to look at high-performance training and to do all those sort of things without understanding or realising what we've already got available to us. And when you look at the best surfers, or if I'm at a contest and I see a surfer that's completely on fire, it comes down to how efficient they are with movement because movement efficiency allows them to collect energy, to transfer it into something else, and to turn it into power. So it's the timing on the wave, it's the smoothness and the way that they can draw down into their turns to collect energy and then turn that into something else and explode out their spins, whatever it might be. So we're both big believers in that side of things. Yes, go to load. Yes, do all those things. Absolutely. We have to have strong athletes, but it's part of the spectrum of training so that you're not missing out on everything that you've got available to you over here. That's our approach.

Michael Frampton
Hmm. Yeah, I totally agree. And I'll give you a short story that kind of exemplifies that. I was working with a very high-level athlete a few years ago, a rugby athlete. And at the time, I'd just done three DNS courses and I was heavily into DNS stuff. And the first time I had him in the gym, I just wanted to watch and see what he could do, what he was doing already. And he was deadlifting about 120 kilos. And then all we did was some DNS-based tweaks to the way that he was holding himself. And it's because he was such a high-level athlete, he just picked it up straight away. He's like, all of a sudden could organise his body in a new way. And then I was like, okay, well, let's try deadlift with those positions in mind. And then he went, he literally went from 120 kilos up to 160. And I was like, okay, we've got to stop now because you've never lifted that much. He's saying it's easy, but no, we've got to stop. So just by organising his skeletal system in a more efficient position based on the DNS stuff, his strength went up. So I think strength actually has a lot more to do with efficiency, really.

Candice Land
Oh, yes. Yeah, absolutely. And it's got to do with the eccentric phase before the concentric phase. So how you set up a movement is really important. And that's where movement efficiency comes in, because if you break it back down all the way back to human evolution, it always comes down to survival. So for humans, the way that our bodies evolved, like I said before, was to be able to find food in lots of different environments. So we have this body that's designed to be able to do all sorts of varieties of movement—jump, run, spin, swim, you name it—so we can find food in all sorts of different environments. The other thing that we got designed into our framework and into our physiology was to be efficient. So that to me is what we're designed to actually be—efficient. That's the way our whole body was designed to work. And so that comes down to how do you load into the body and how do you eccentrically load and how do you collect energy within the body. Because if there is a breakdown in that, it's too calorie expensive. So the movement is costing you more than it should. And you can see that. You can see people are strong and they can muscle their way through movement.

Michael Frampton
Great. What's the cost of that? Hmm. I'm going to ask you, so I love the sort of evolutionary biologist sort of background to what you just said there. It leads me to ask you the question, because that makes me think of sort of the hunter-gatherer world, and whereas the men typically were the ones who were running, jumping, climbing, doing a lot of the heavy lifting per se, so it makes complete sense to train a male athlete like that. But is the same true for female athletes?

Candice Land
It is. We have a dual-function pelvis, so our pelvis evolved to be wider, because the pelvis for a man is just going to enable you to be bipedal, walk, run. For a female, we had to be bipedal, but then we also had to carry and birth a child. So the shape of our pelvis is different. The other thing that's different is the shape of the actual bony structures around the shoulder girdle. So it tends to be a shallower joint. And there's some differences around muscle fibres and things like that. But evolutionarily, we're still designed to do those two things as a species, yep.

Michael Frampton
Okay. So when it comes to training the female athlete, how do those differences change what you do?

Candice Land
I'm a big believer in pelvic alignment and pelvic stability. I have a DNS background as well, I've done a few of the DNS training. So I'm a big believer in trunk stability and core stability, functional core stability in terms of making an athlete more efficient and being able to transfer load. For women, I feel that because we can't rely on fast-twitch muscle fibres and big muscle mass necessarily—we can train and develop those things to an extent—and I feel that that's an area that female athletes can really encapsulate: the ability to transfer load so that they work really efficiently mechanically and they connect all the dots in their body. That's our world where we can really capitalise on the power that's available to us. So I will try to incorporate that. And a big key component to that for women is the pelvis. To me, the pelvis is like a keystone joint. Like, did you do any of the footwork stuff with the DNS community with Marco Rintala and his online stuff?

Michael Frampton
A little bit. I've also looked at the foot through other modalities, yeah.

Candice Land
You know how it's like a bridge, right? And you've got the keystone in the bridge and how well that keystone works determines whether the bridge stays up or whether it collapses. I consider the pelvis also one of the keystone joints in the body. If it gets stuck in a certain position or if it's destabilising before it needs to, if it gets stuck in what we call like a swing phase of gait instead of being able to be stable and handle stance and single-leg load, it interrupts the whole mechanics of the body. It can drive you into neck pain. It can drive you into shoulder pain. And so for women, where we have this wider pelvis and we have this Q-angle where the knees come in a little bit, that to me is an area that we really need to focus on with female athletes as a potential powerhouse and in reducing low limb injuries. So I will look into that as well. But that's first and foremost before I will even go into like shoulders and things like that. For me, it's about again making female athletes more efficient, and how do we protect the female athlete, how do we protect the female body, and how do we make it more robust and more adaptable? How do we power up this body? So those are the two things that I would tend to look at initially. Does that make sense?

Michael Frampton
Definitely.

Michael Frampton
That's essentially, that's very much DNS thinking as well, just in general. Do you find that the female athletes are actually more open to diving into some of the more subtleties of DNS than the male athletes, who just want to do some deadlifts and do what they do on TV?

Candice Land
I think it's hard to say. I've got male athletes that I've worked with over, like, oh, it's nearly a decade now. In the surfing scene, I see them at the contest and they come and say hi. I catch up and see how their bodies are going. And you've always got to get that athlete buy-in. The athlete buy-in is the results and the change that they get. So if you can get that—regardless of gender—if you can get that with an athlete, then they're more inclined to understand the value and benefit of that form of exercise. Are women more open-minded to it? I would say that it depends on their background of training they've had and also the influence of the coach. I've actually had instances where the coach hasn't allowed the athlete to do anything outside of strength training because, "This is the Olympic model," or, "This is the high-performance model, so this is what we're doing." I'm concerned about the rigidity that's coming into the surf training model. But then you've got role models in the sport that are still doing their own thing and still getting really good results with that. So I think that helps as well. But if they're more open-minded to it or not, I couldn't say whether women are a lot.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's a shame that there are so many studies out there saying how bad heavy weightlifting is—not just for athletes like surfers, but for almost anyone really.

Candice Land
Yeah, I think there's a time and a place. There's been a lot of research to show the benefits of load training, and I think for female athletes it's really important because, especially as we change across the lifespan, we get to this point where estrogen isn't such a dominant hormone anymore, and estrogen has a really protective effect on muscular tissue, so we'll lose muscle mass quite quickly. And so that has a ricochet effect through the body in terms of injury as an older athlete and in terms of just being able to do the sport the way that you've always done it. So strength training, I think, has a little bit more—no, not a little bit more—I just think it's important, an important ingredient for female athletes to consider. But I think it's also important for surf athletes to understand their own body and to have the ability to work with what works well for them, rather than having to fit a rigid framework. And you need a versatile practitioner and approach to be able to understand that spectrum and for it to be a very athlete-centered approach to training.

Michael Frampton
So you mentioned DNS?

Candice Land
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
You still use a lot of that?

Candice Land
Heaps. I still use a lot of it. I find it as a reorganization tool in terms of faulty movement patterns. Yes. It was embedded so early into our central nervous system from a developmental perspective. You couldn't learn a movement pattern until you stabilized in a particular way. The body had to get stabilization first before it could develop the next motor pattern, as you know. So if we can draw back to that organization, you still see the body able to let go and come back to improving motor patterns. So I find it really good at unlocking things and creating change in a very short amount of time. So when I'm working at events, I'll use that as a modality. I use quite a lot of different modalities, but I will still use DNS principles.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. So what are some of the other courses that you've done over the years and, in particular, which ones had the biggest influence on what you do now?

Candice Land
I first—you know, I am absolutely fascinated by the nervous system. I first became exposed to the nervous system when I was doing my post-grad in occupational therapy, of all things. And I delved heavily into the nervous system from a developmental perspective and dealing with pediatric health, then also dealing with things like stroke recovery. That to me, I couldn't understand why—that was a game changer for me. It totally changed the way that I saw movement. The muscles are the end point of the story. So it changed the way that I assessed and it changed the way that I prescribed movement. So I've been interested in that. And then through pediatrics, I've also been interested in the developmental stages of movement and how that all kind of gets integrated and where it can go wrong as adults, what we can kind of pull back through. So those two things. I've done additional training around integrated neurology stuff. I'm fascinated with the vestibular system, so I'm diving into that a bit right now. But then I also don't want to pull too far away from the strength and conditioning side of things as well. Because I have to span the spectrum of injury prevention and injury recovery into managing complex injuries and complex movement patterns all the way into high-performance training. And that's just in the realm of musculoskeletal—that's not even including everything else that I need influence from a physiological perspective. So we just look at that. So I want to make sure that I fill that spectrum. So some of my training has also included things like kettlebell training courses and additional strength training courses just to know that I can still communicate with that audience and I can still bridge that, and then I bring it all. So I'll still manipulate some of these exercises. I say to people, "Right, you're at the point now where we're going to go to the gym. I'm gonna give you your strength training program, but it's gonna be your nerdy strength training program," okay? So that I can bring in some of those postural elements and some of the DNS stuff and some of the pelvic restoration stuff into your strength-based program. Sometimes I try to remember the specific names of courses, but I can't.

Michael Frampton
I like that approach, and I agree. I didn’t mean to sound anti-strength training before. It's just I think you see a lot of athletes just overdo the deadlift, the bench press, and the squat, and you can see, and then they just end up getting big without necessarily getting functionally strong.

Candice Land
I think I can understand and see how that holds athletes together in bigger, more powerful surf where they have to be working against some pretty big external forces. But I do also think that we don't operate that—we’re not—I think sometimes of load as sound. So that when we're under load from a nervous system perspective, if we think about it in terms of sound, it's very high volume, very noisy. So you're under this load, you've got weight on your body, your brain knows where everything is in space, the volume is being turned up, and it's a noisy, loud environment. If you think about how often we're in that context in surfing, when is that? When are we getting the most input and most noise into our body from a movement perspective?

Michael Frampton
I would say in heavy surf or wipeout.

Candice Land
Yeah, yeah. If we're dealing with a wave that wants to compress us, and we have to kind of resist against that, if it's a lot of water moving, and we really have to load into that bottom turn to really be able to manage that power and control that power, it would be when we go to execute a turn, where the timing is, or if we need to, again, load back into a bottom turn to collect energy. But then what's happening in between that movement? Unless it's on a big, heavy, powerful moving...

Michael Frampton
...wave, the volume turns down.

Candice Land
Yeah. We need to be able to have strategies that enable us to work on the high-volume situations and low-volume situations and then be able to dial the volume up and the volume down.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I guess I kind of think of high-level top-to-bottom surfing as kind of jumping and landing based really.

Candice Land
On and off. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
There's a nice smoothness.

Candice Land
It's like the same thing with walking. You know, walking is meant to be so efficient that it costs you very little energy. But we're not doing that. We're not doing that, are we? But if I—you know, faulty movement patterns I see just in walking. You know, and that bipedal gait, that opposite arm to opposite leg situation, is prevalent in so many other activities that we do in the real world. And I think, you can squat this and you can bench press this, that's awesome. But you can't get this? You're not stable on a single leg. So we kind of need to look at this as well.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, and you mentioned neurological side of things a lot there as well. And I certainly—the type of training that I've done personally that affected my surfing the most was when I was doing a lot of DNS. I was learning it and working with clients as well as seeing someone one-on-one at least once a week. And I was doing a lot of vestibular and ocular training at the same time. And I actually got to the point where I was able to go—I went to Fiji on a surf trip and I was really nervous because I get seasick in a bath. But I think because I'd been doing so much vestibular and ocular training, I just didn't get seasick.

Candice Land
That's awesome. Got to keep that up because that deteriorates as we age. And for women, that change fluctuates in a single cycle. So women will have changes in their particular capacities within a single cycle. So all of those things kind of come into play. So then, knowing that, then, does that shift and change how you would develop your own training program?

Michael Frampton
I would think so. You’d want to be cycling in time with the moon, personally.

Candice Land
But also, now knowing how the DNS work that you did and the vestibular and ocular work that you did, how that enhanced your performance—would you be more inclined to go to the gym and focus on strength? Or would you be more inclined to do that training that you did prior to Fiji?

Michael Frampton
I'd do a mixture of both. Yeah.

Candice Land
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, definitely.

Candice Land
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Just, yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Candice Land
And I think that’s fun. I think that makes it fun. I think if you can work across the whole spectrum, it makes training a journey, not just a routine.

Michael Frampton
Definitely. I mean, I challenge anyone out there to stand on one leg with your eyes closed. That's not as easy as you think.

Candice Land
I'm doing it this morning. I was like, okay, we need to do some work on this.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it's hard. And then try and do it with your eyes closed and your head moving. It's interesting because I've had the pleasure of working with some high-level athletes. That's a test I'd always do. And some of the best athletes, they're just like, oh yeah. They'll just stand on one leg with their eyes closed and just do it. Even though they've never trained to do it, they're just naturally gifted. They've been gifted with a great vestibular system through their genetics or their background or whatever.

Candice Land
Yeah. And I think if you took a surfer and you did it on a flat surface, they would manage differently on an unstable surface.

Michael Frampton
Mmm.

Candice Land
The surfer is always on a surface that's moving.

Michael Frampton
Don't you think the vestibular system would be pretty quick to learn that though, like if it's a high level?

Candice Land
It's adaptable. Yeah, if it's adaptable. And there's things that kind of play into that.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Mmm. I think it also, like someone who's got an incredible vestibular system—I mean, you look at a surfer going through a barrel section with lots of chandeliers, with vision gone—and they just come through. It doesn't seem to bother them.

Candice Land
And they always know where they are in space to be able to land that exactly where they need to be landing that, to then go into another turn straight away. I love seeing that. Are you doing much sort of isolated vestibular work with any athletes? Yes and no. I want to upskill in that area before I do whole people work in that area because I do think it's high risk. So I tend to baseline set it up through the highest cervical area and then do some eye tracking training and then also eyes closed, eyes open, that sort of thing. I think it's a really unique skill set.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, there are also ways to sort of—you don’t necessarily have to isolate it—you can add in fun little stuff so they don't even realize they're doing it sort of thing.

Candice Land
Very true. Yeah, like strobed glasses are a great way to do that. Or get them to blink, blink slowly, or yes.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Just jump into—I don’t know if you have discovered Z-Health yet, but they’ve got heaps of cool stuff on that website. You're giving me so many cool things today. So that’s Dr. Cobb. He's a chiropractor neurologist guy who, oh man, years ago, decided to start training personal trainers in neurology. And in particular, you know, the vestibular and ocular system. So he's got a lot of really—he starts base level. So there’s heaps of free videos on his website as well, and he's got a course on vestibular training and vision training as well.

Candice Land
Yeah, awesome. Yeah, a bit in terms of—yeah—and the concussion side of things. Yes. It’s good that it’s developing as a treatment like that, modulating.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And for prevention as well, like I know if you get concussed without seeing it coming especially, your concussion is worse. But it also actually narrows your peripheral vision post-concussion, which makes you more susceptible to another concussion, because your center vision—essentially you lose part of your peripheral vision. So if you're training your peripheral vision to rehab your peripheral vision and even improve it, that can help as well. They talk about that on Z-Health a lot as well. A friend of mine who did the Z-Health stuff, he’s now into cognitive training as well. So it’s really interesting, man. You should have a look at his website too—SomaNPT. He’s got an app that’s got all things like strobe, so Stroop tests and visual reaction, audio reaction, yes/no, go/no-go sort of drills on that app. Really fascinating stuff. He’s working with some of the football teams in Europe and the Formula One drivers in Europe with all that sort of stuff.

Candice Land
Yeah, awesome. All that responsiveness and that decision making that you don't even have time to make—that lightning stuff that you need.

Michael Frampton
Hmm. And what's really fascinating about that—he’s doing a lot of studies with universities at the moment too—is they'll test VO₂ max and the athlete won’t change any of their physical training, but they start adding in the cognitive training whilst they might just be on the bike or a treadmill doing their standard cardio training, but they'll add in the cognitive stuff so they might be doing Stroop tests or visual reaction tests, and they're seeing an increase in their VO₂ simply because the prefrontal cortex is dealing with the whole thing better. So it’s fascinating. Really cool. Yeah, really cool.

Candice Land
You’ve added to my diving list.

Michael Frampton
Oh, there’s so much out there, right?

Candice Land
Yeah, I spent all morning reading articles. I’m like, oh, brain. Come on, brain.

Michael Frampton
Keep going. So let's speak to this—the average recreational surfer that might be listening now, the female one in particular. What considerations should they be making to their training and in recommendations? Like what should they be doing and not doing for the average athlete?

Candice Land
Yes. So for the average athlete—I think as a female, sometimes the hardest thing is that we don’t necessarily know what we’re dealing with. We haven’t had a lot of time to really understand our own biology and physiology and how to manipulate that in the world of exercise prescription that suits us the best. We've kind of just been basing it off research, as you know, that’s been predominantly done on men. So there’s a lot of mistruth and misunderstanding. So I think as the recreational female athlete—and even the elite female athlete now—is in this really cool realm or this really cool time where we can really begin to understand ourselves. So it means that you just need to cue in and listen to yourself. You are going to have fluctuations. You are going to be in states of evidence low. But just clue in and monitor yourself and get in touch with yourself and start to understand your own rhythms, rather than kind of blowing them off as if they’re nothing. So for example, I didn’t realize this until I started, you know, tracking my own cycles and getting a good understanding of my own rhythms—why I would turn up to, let’s say, Cabarita, and it would be two- to three-foot glassy, sunny day, similar conditions to where I was a week ago, and I wouldn’t want to go surfing. Like I would actually be anxious about going surfing. And I'd just be like, what are you doing? Like, I’d talk so—I'd be so hard on myself. What are you doing? Why don’t you want to get in the water? You’ve only got this amount of time, get in, go, go, go, go, go. But inside, my body’s like, no, I don’t want to. I don’t want to go. I didn’t realize that shift in anxiety was actually a cyclical pattern for me. So in understanding that, I could prepare myself better for those moments so that now I don’t experience that so much. But at the time I was able to bring in strategies to help me manage that a lot better. So I think paying attention to your own cycles is really, really important and what you experience. And just get your head around who you are personally as an athlete, because regardless of what—the one consistency in the research around female athletes is—it’s still very inconclusive. It’s still very much based on the individual athlete. So we have a responsibility to really understand ourselves. So that would be the first thing. It’s a really cool time to explore who you are as an athlete. And I think the other thing to know is that as women, we have these significant changes across the lifespan as well. So for me, another journey that I’ve experienced personally as an athlete as well is the discrepancy between what I was like as an athlete at 25 and what I’m like as an athlete now at 40-something. What used to work for me and what I used to be able to tolerate at 25, and what I can tolerate now at 40-something—there's a big difference there in terms of fatigue profiles, in terms of the way that I need to manage myself nutritionally, in terms of my stress profile and cortisol and what I can tolerate in an exercise session and what will burn me out. There's big differences there. So we need to understand that we also fluctuate across the lifespan. So be prepared to be able to adjust the way you're surfing. So if you started surfing at the age of 45, but you're watching what a 25-year-old would do on social media for their surf training, and if it’s not the right fit, then don’t beat yourself up about that. You might be in a different lifespan where you need to support your body in a different way. So to understand that. And another thing is—if I was going to pull this back and go, this is actually—this is the number one question that I get asked from the female surfer community. The number one question is: where do I start? How do I get started? This is recreational athletes from the age of 20 through to 55. And so that’s the number one question. So I developed from that two things. One was a female surfer screening protocol, which is designed around age, around the female biology and physiology and how our bodies work, and matching that against the demands of that particular athlete’s type of surfing so that they can figure out from that assessment screening, oh okay, I need to work on my balance, or I need to work on my fitness, or whatever it might be. It’s a way for them to really hone in as an individual. And the second thing I did was develop the pillar system. So the pillar system is based off screening hundreds of female surf athletes from beginner level to CT level and understanding from injury data and the injury information that we get from a competitive perspective and understanding the challenges that female athletes experience with progressing their surfing. And if I had to pick the top three things, what would they be? And out of those top three things, what would be the most important? So the neuro root, you know, is core stability. So if you’re going to start somewhere and you had no idea where to start, pull it all back—come back to core stability. It’s a really important injury prevention capacity for female athletes, particularly when it comes to lower limb injuries. It’s really important for powering up our surfing and being able to transfer load and to manage the demands of surfing, even though we might have a smaller shoulder muscle mass size. So I will always start with a female athlete—if they only have limited time and they only have the mental capacity to do one thing—that would be where I would start.

Michael Frampton
Okay. Does that help?

Candice Land
Definitely, definitely. So it sounds like you alluded to some programs that you have on your website.

Michael Frampton
I do. I have programs that actually—I always rehash them and redo them. So they’re actually all about to be updated. But I have the pillar-based system on the website, and the surfer screening is also on the website. And then we’ve been doing some really fun surf trip preparation training, which is orientated around preparation for surf trips, and that in itself now is going to be designed into another program because that’s actually been running really well.

Michael Frampton
Okay, what’s the pillar program?

Candice Land
So the pillar program—there are three short courses that you can do. Each course is designed to last for four weeks. You start with core stability, then you go into upper body development, and then you've got lower body development. The lower body development is really about helping female athletes power up their lower limbs for force and speed generation. And so we’d be looking at things like we were talking about early on in the podcast around eccentrically loading. How do we collect energy? Where do we need to be stable to do this? With the upper body stuff, it’s around being able to improve our paddling capacity, popping up, all that sort of stuff. And duck diving, and the challenges of making sure that you have the strength to be taking off in the most critical part of that wave and also getting yourself out of trouble. So that’s the upper body course. And the first one is the most important pillar, which is the core stability. So that was set up to—again, if you were going to cover the foundations—you would actually be dealing with those three courses and in that order of importance.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. How do you describe the core stability?

Candice Land
Oh, yeah. I have an educational component about this in the course, and it’s the Female Surfer approach to core stability. For me, it’s very much orientated—I won’t go into too much detail—but it’s very much orientated around the axial skeleton, because that is the axis of movement. So that’s what core is to me. It’s from head to pubic bone. It includes the scapula, it includes the shoulder blades, it includes the pelvis, it includes the organisation and the alignment of the spine, it includes the jaw—all those sorts of things.

Michael Frampton
Okay, so we’re talking not just sets of planks?

Candice Land
No, no. And I know there’s a—yeah, I’m not a big believer, again, in bracing when it comes to core stability. Bracing is a strategy that the body uses, again, under heavier load. But if you’re doing things like planks, then that’s not necessarily making you adaptable in your core. Core is designed to enable you to stay upright and stable in space, and it’s designed to help you transfer load, and it’s there for movement efficiency, basically, yeah. It makes a more robust and more powerful athlete. But you know when it’s dysfunctional, as you know. You know when it’s not working for somebody—you can see it in the movement.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. And what’s the name of—

Candice Land
Your website? Thefemalesurfer.com.

Michael Frampton
Perfect. I will put links to that in the show notes. And you’re on Instagram as well. Remind me of your handle?

Candice Land
@thefemalesurfer.

Michael Frampton
Too easy. Again, I’ll put links to that in the show notes. We could talk for hours, but it’s coming up to the top of the hour, so we’ll leave it there for today.

Candice Land
Yeah. Well, yeah, wow. Cool. It’s been fun to get on again.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Love to have you on.

Candice Land
Cool.

Michael Frampton
Well, thank you so much, Candice.

Candice Land
Thank you.

Michael Frampton
For the listeners, go check the show notes out.

Candice Land
Cool. Too easy.

Michael Frampton
Thanks so much.

Candice Land
No, thank you.

104 Candice Land - Exercise Physiologist for WSL and Creator of "The Female Surfer"

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

What if the best way to improve your surfing has nothing to do with your technique—and everything to do with how you live?

Captain Liz Clark sailed across the Pacific solo for over a decade in search of waves, connection, and meaning. In this deep and honest episode, she shares how facing danger, solitude, and self-doubt at sea helped her redefine success—not just as a surfer, but as a human. Liz offers a rare perspective on flow, fear, and femininity that goes way beyond the lineup.

• Discover why inner peace and purpose matter more than performance for true surfing progression

• Hear how a competitive surfer became an environmental activist through her voyage of awakening

• Learn how letting go of control and comparison can unlock lasting stoke and deeper flow states

Hit play to hear how surfing, sailing, and self-love came together in Captain Liz Clark’s unforgettable journey—and why her story could change your relationship with the ocean forever.

Links to Liz:

https://swellvoyage.com

https://www.instagram.com/captainlizclark/?hl=en

The sponsor for this episode is https://flatrockwetsuits.com.au

Enter code MASTER15 for 15% off a new wetsuit.

Key Points

• Surfing is central to Liz's lifestyle, allowing her to enjoy freedom and a year-round surfing experience.

• Liz's first surf experience was at age 15, staying in the whitewater with a friend, which hooked her on surfing.

• Liz's relationship with the ocean is deeply intertwined with her sense of peace, acceptance, and personal growth.

• Liz's biggest fear during her ocean adventures was not the physical dangers but the fear of failure as a captain.

• Liz's voyage led to an awakening in terms of self-discovery, understanding her place in the world, and spiritual connection.

• Liz emphasizes the importance of inner alignment and self-awareness for achieving flow states and success in surfing.

• Liz's journey was driven by a desire to live close to nature, simplify life, and align with her environmental values, with surfing as a significant component.

• Liz advises surfers to focus on enjoying themselves and the benefits of being in the ocean rather than solely on performance improvement.

• Liz's definition of femininity evolved during her voyage, emphasizing confidence, self-love, and embracing one's unique style.

• Liz's current adventure involves community activism through a campaign to spay and neuter animals on her island. 

Outline

Liz Clark's Relationship with Surfing

• Liz Clark's relationship with surfing began in high school when a friend took them out on a surfboard.

• Surfing is central to Liz's life, influencing their decisions and lifestyle.

• Liz describes surfing as a source of freedom, salvation, and inspiration.

Liz Clark's Relationship with the Ocean

• The ocean has been a place of peace and acceptance for Liz since youth.

• Liz spent over a decade traveling the ocean on a sailboat, facing numerous challenges.

• Liz's relationship with the ocean is characterized by love, respect, and a healthy amount of fear.

Liz Clark's Solo Voyage

• Liz embarked on a solo voyage in their early twenties, traveling through the Pacific on a sailboat named Swell.

• The voyage was fraught with risks, including injuries, pirates, and long-distance voyaging.

• Liz's determination and desire to continue the voyage were instilled from a young age, growing up on boats.

Definition of 'Captain' and 'Failure'

• Liz defines a captain as someone who manages a ship safely and delivers passengers safely to their destination.

• Failure, for Liz, would be running the boat aground on a reef or deciding the voyage was too scary and giving up.

Awakening and Self-Discovery

• The subtitle of Liz's book, 'A Sailing Surfer's Voyage of Awakening,' refers to discovering oneself and understanding one's place in the world.

• Liz's journey led to an awakening in terms of self-discovery, spirituality, and connection to the universe.

• The voyage accelerated Liz's inner growth and self-awareness.

Flow States and Surfing

• Liz believes that flow states are a beautiful thing and can be influenced by inner alignment and choices.

• Surfing in flow states can be elicited by challenging situations, though sometimes it can have the opposite effect if one is exhausted.

• Liz had moments where they put surfing ahead of their instincts, leading to close calls with disaster.

Best Surfing Experiences

• Liz had many good surfing experiences, but the best ones were those that were earned through challenges and required effort.

• The appreciation for good waves is heightened when they are not easily accessible, emphasizing the value of effort and adventure.

Driving Force Behind the Trip

• Surfing was one of the principal driving forces behind Liz's trip, along with a desire to live close to nature and simplify life.

• Liz saw the journey as a way to escape the modern world and live in alignment with their environmental values.

Advice for Surfers

• Liz advises surfers to focus on enjoying themselves and having fun, rather than solely improving performance.

• Embracing one's own style and personality in surfing is key to improvement and enjoyment.

• Letting go of expectations and pressure can increase the chance of entering flow states and improve surfing.

Liz's Current Surfing and Lifestyle

• Liz surfs three to four times a week and is based in Tahiti.

• Liz attributes their improved surfing at age 44 to taking care of their body, eating healthy, and practicing yoga.

• Living on land since 2018 has allowed Liz to focus more on surfing and improve quicker.

Book Recommendations

• Liz recommends 'The Four Agreements' by Don Ruiz Miguel for self-growth and self-awareness.

• For adventure books, Liz suggests 'Paddling Your Own Canoe' by Audrey Sutherland and 'The Long Way' by Bernard Moitissier.

• Liz also recommends 'Halaiki Rising,' the story of the Hokulea and the rediscovery of Polynesian navigation.

Definition of Femininity

• Liz's definition of femininity has evolved from traditional ideals to a more personal and confident expression.

• Liz's voyage allowed them to redefine femininity based on confidence, self-love, and embracing one's true self.

• Embracing femininity has positively impacted Liz's sailing, surfing, and overall life enjoyment.

Advice to Younger Self

• Liz would advise their younger self to embrace obstacles as opportunities, challenges as learning experiences, and difficult people as chances to practice virtues.

• Loving oneself and not comparing to others would have avoided much pain and frustration.

Current Adventures and Activism

• Liz is currently involved in a campaign to spay and neuter dogs and cats on the island where they live to reduce overpopulation and animal suffering.

• This community activism represents a shift from sailing adventures to working with others and the government on local challenges.

Transcription

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Let me start. I want to ask you, do you remember your first wave, your first surf?

Liz Clark
I do. I do. I was in high school. I think I was a freshman in high school, so 15. And I had a friend who was a surfer, and she offered to take me out on her board one day. And we just stayed in the whitewater the whole time. And I don't even think I stood up all the way. But I got the feeling of the glide and just being out there in the ocean, which was something I already loved so much. And yeah, I was hooked. I was absolutely hooked.

Michael Frampton
So now, what does surfing mean to you now?

Liz Clark
Well, I mean, surfing is such a foundational part of my life. It's just one of the biggest pillars that I revolve my world around. And so, yeah, surfing means so much to me. I shape so many of my decisions around it, you know, based on being able to keep freedom and have a lifestyle that allows me to surf when the waves are good and be in a place where I can enjoy that year-round. Yeah, it's my salvation and my playground. And, you know, it gives me so, so much.

Michael Frampton
How would you describe your relationship to the ocean?

Liz Clark
My relationship to the ocean. I mean, the ocean has given me so much, you know, when you think back to. When I think back to my youth and just how the ocean was always a place that I could go to feel at peace and accepted. Always kind of a medium where I felt like I could be myself. And then, of course, when I spent ten years, you know, more than a decade and thousands of miles traveling the ocean on my sailboat. You know, the ocean gave me so many challenges and, you know, was a place where I was forced to grow in so many ways that, yeah, our relationship is something of like love and respect and a healthy amount of fear, but there's so much more to gain than, you know, to fear in my opinion, so something I keep going back to all the time to feel good, to stay inspired, to keep feeling a purpose in my life, and so yeah, I'm very close to the ocean and hope that I will get to continue to be.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah, you mentioned fear. When it comes to the ocean, what is your biggest fear?

Liz Clark
You know, I've learned to kind of calculate my risks in my 40s now, you know, I used to kind of fling myself madly at my ocean escapades, but, you know, now I tend to use a bit more calculated risk when it involves surfing and, you know, long-distance voyaging or sailing adventures. But yeah, I mean, I don't really, to be honest, focus on the scariest parts, so I don't really even know what I would fear the most. I try to focus on the good parts, and I think that's always served me.

Michael Frampton
Obviously, yeah, because I'm getting out on a solo voyage in your early, was it your 20s? Yeah, like, there's so much, like a young woman by herself on a second-hand boat, like surfing to surf reef passes, like injuries, pirates, like the list of risks is insane. Like, what gave you the mouse to sit across such upon such a voyage? Like, where did it come from?

Liz Clark
Yeah, to be honest, I don't know. It's almost like it was born and instilled it into me always because, you know, I had the experience of growing up on boats and getting a taste of that pleasure of seeing the world by boat as a young child. You know, neither my brother or my sister ever had quite the same desire as I did to continue that and live it out in such a way that I did. So I don't really know exactly where it came from, but the determination to do it and the desire was always just such a huge part of my world and I didn't really question why. And yeah, the risks, I knew what the risks were and people were constantly telling me and talking about them, especially in the several years that I spent preparing the boat for the voyage. You know, there was just constantly people telling me why this was not a good idea and kind of naysaying it. I think there was a deep down, I really knew that there was more to gain than to lose and that those risks were going to be like part of the fun. At that age, I was really, you know, I loved the idea of adventure and unknown and kind of just going without a plan. So at that time, there was parts of that that appealed to me. You know, what really I feared, I think most, as I set out, was failure, you know, like failing my job as people that helped me and whether it was financially or, you know, sweat, blood and tears. There was just a lot riding on me pulling it all off. So that was the biggest fear, was just that I couldn't perform as a captain or, you know, do, fulfill those duties or things that I needed to do to be successful at the voyage.

Michael Frampton
Well, how did you define the word "captain," and what would have failure looked like?

Liz Clark
I mean, captain, I define as being able to manage your ship safely, to be able to, you know, your passengers safely to the other side. You know, at the beginning of the voyage, I was always with different crew and friends who had very little boating experience. And so there was a lot of responsibility on me to make sure everybody stayed safe and understood the basics of, you know, what the risks were of being out there on the ocean. So, I think that's my definition of being a captain or being a good captain. And I would have defined failure at that point as, you know, running the boat aground on the reef or, you know, in a way that it would have been like a repairable damage to swell or, you know, just deciding that it all too scary for me and I didn't want to do it, you know, giving up in some kind of way like that.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, so having to be rescued basically.

Liz Clark
Yeah, yeah, sinking or running aground would have been really, really a, for me, it would have been a big sad ending to a beautiful thing.

Michael Frampton
Hmm. The subtitle to the book is A Sailing Surfer’s Voyage of Awakening. That sounds quite, it's quite a spiritual subtitle. What do you mean by "awakening," and describe what that means to you. What's that journey of awakening?

Liz Clark
Yeah, I think it means many things. To me, it meant awakening in terms of me discovering myself and knowing who I am as a person, as a woman. That was a huge part of the journey and then also kind of an awakening to the realities of the world and understanding my place in it, a connection as well to my spirituality and like a deeper understanding of my place in the universe. All of those things were kind of like an unexpected part of what I did. I really set out kind of with just the idea that I was, you know, going out there to find remote waves and surf these breaks and have fun. And, you know, there was just so much more to it. When I actually got out there, I learned that to be able to succeed at what I was doing, it was really important for me to be able to look within and remove any of those obstacles that were blocking me from being kind of like in alignment with the greater forces of the world. Because when you're out there, you're so vulnerable and so dependent on nature and the ocean to kind of cooperate with you, that it really became apparent that, you know, my inner journey and my outer world had connected in a really important way. And that, you know, doing the work within, I would be rewarded on in the physical world, you know, externally, I guess?

Michael Frampton
Well, what is it doing the work within?

Liz Clark
What do you mean by that? I think I mean looking within and seeing how I could be a better person, recognizing self-awareness, basically. You know, there's always things that we don't see being ourselves and that, you know, it takes, it took me time alone on the ocean with lots of time to reflect and really think about who I was and who I wanted to be, to be able to kind of like do that inner work, do that job of looking at things maybe you don't like about yourself or you want to do better at and kind of put them into play in your everyday life.

Michael Frampton
I'm assuming you're talking about in regards to others, like your relationship with other people?

Liz Clark
Definitely, but I think my relationship with myself as well. You know, yes, definitely with other people. You know, there was a point in my voyage where I wanted to make amends with everybody that I felt that I'd wronged in my life and, you know, wrote letters to different people that I wanted to apologize to or clarify something with. But there was also an ongoing relationship with myself that needed attention and, you know, me discovering my power as a woman, as a person, depended so heavily on me being able to be confident and learn to love myself really. That wasn't something that came naturally to me. I was kind of, I never thought that I deserved maybe as much as other people did. And so it took me time to kind of develop my self-worth, I guess I would say.

Michael Frampton
Interesting. And you mentioned the connection between the inner and outer worlds. Could you think of a literal example? Maybe when you were feeling a bit more self-worth and calmness, was the ocean calmer at the time?

Liz Clark
I don't think it was so directly visible, but I think, over time, I understood that, you know, not only my qualms but my attitude towards things. Like, during this voyage, you know, being on a boat, things are constantly breaking. I think there's just always challenges, you know, and at the beginning, I tended to very quickly get frustrated and want to throw my arms up and be like, you know, everything's never going my way. Then, at some point, I kind of realized like, if I don't find a way to see these challenges as opportunities or, you know, at least try to stay calm and accept that this is absolutely going to be constantly part of my reality on this journey, I would have given up within the first year. I had to transform my way of thinking about those challenges in order to find positivity in them because it would have just been constantly too hard. So I think over time as I began to understand that connection of me just feeling frustrated, it would almost always get worse if I reacted in that way to a problem or a difficult person that came into my life. If I resisted it and made a bigger fuss out of it, it always ended up being more challenging. So I think over time I realized like, okay, I've got to just consider this busted windless motor a chance to maybe meet some interesting people that are going to help me fix it. I found that over time, the challenges did lead me to really cool experiences if I could keep an open mind. And so I think it wasn't so overnight that I said, oh, I'm calm and the ocean's calm. No, the ocean was always throwing new challenges at me. It was just more a matter of me seeing the alignment between going with the flow in those moments and letting them lead me towards somewhere that maybe I didn't have in mind, and then getting there and having a really cool surprise happen. You know, having the wind push me in a direction that I didn't originally think I wanted to go, for example, and then getting to a place that I would have never gone to initially and discovering something really cool when I got there. Does that make sense? I kind of rambled on that.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I like that. And it's also, I think that part of you was also very present before you set out on the journey. Do you see that in hindsight?

Liz Clark
I mean, I think it was probably always there. I think being out on the ocean and especially when I was sailing alone, just like the noise was gone and I could hear myself better and I could think clearer. It just accelerated the process of me having those realizations and understandings.

Michael Frampton
I think being in the environment that I was out on the ocean, yeah. Because, I mean, setting out on such a voyage at such a young age and ignoring all of the challenges and the people who were pointing out the barriers and challenges, there's certainly an element of faith that led you to do it anyway.

Liz Clark
Definitely. I certainly had a confidence in myself, a confidence in my capability to problem-solve and overcome obstacles that would come up—maybe to almost a scary degree. My parents might have thought that. But yeah, I wanted to try to improve and do better and be a good person, whatever that means to you. For me, being out there seemed to definitely accelerate the opportunities to have that inner growth in those relative areas.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever encounter any pirates?

Liz Clark
No, no real actual pirates. But definitely plenty of unpleasant men and situations that I had to avoid or be smart about. I was pretty hyper aware of those kinds of dangers. I'd say those were the scariest things to me at that point—encountering dangerous men more powerful than me that could do harm. I didn't overthink it or concentrate on it too much, but I definitely learned to tune into my instincts. And when I met someone that gave me an uncomfortable feeling, right away I would remove myself from the situation and do what I needed to do to not be in their path again.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. So you had a few close calls in that regard?

Liz Clark
I mean, I had, yeah, definitely some moments that I wouldn't want to relive if I didn't have to. But in general, I think I was pretty smart about it. When I got to a new place, you always met people. Generally, upon arrival somewhere, the boating community is really small and I tended to connect with people who I felt safe with. Creating that little bubble of people who were kind of looking out for me was, I feel like, a really good way to navigate it. Do you think it was a rite of passage, in a way, the journey itself?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, absolutely.

Liz Clark
You know, I don't think young people have the same opportunities for that kind of experience in today's world, or we don't focus on it as much as certainly some civilizations and people did in the past. I do think I see the value in it so much after having done what I did in my 20s. I see young people not getting that opportunity or giving themselves that opportunity in that age group, and I wish that our society did more to say it's important for you to go out and spread your wings and fall if you have to and get back up—especially at that age—because you're really forging who you are. You're learning yourself. You're setting yourself up for the decisions you're going to make and the life path that you're going to choose ahead of you. So yeah, I believe I didn't intend a rite of passage really at the time, but it absolutely was that, looking back. Hmm, yeah.

Michael Frampton
Tell me, what are your thoughts on flow states?

Liz Clark
Well, I think they're a really beautiful thing and we're lucky when we find ourselves in those moments where things flow. I definitely think that we can—like I'm saying in terms of how our inner alignment affects our outer world—when we're making choices and doing things to keep our inner world healthy and feeling good, I do think that is reflected externally in how things kind of happen around us and definitely lead us towards being in flow state more often. I don't think we can be there all the time, but I think that's what makes it so special and keeps us aiming to tune back in and get aligned and try to find those special flow state moments again. You know, yes, I imagine if you've been sailing and you're tired and then you turn up to some reef pass and it's just pumping, it kind of has to be surfed, and the pressure of that situation would elicit a deep flow state, I imagine. Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes I think it would elicit the opposite because, you know, there were times when I would get somewhere and I was exhausted after a long passage and the surf would be good and I would force myself to go there when actually my body and everything was telling me, you need to rest. I was constantly in conflict because the boat and the safety of the boat had to always remain first priority. In my heart, I was a surfer and I wanted to just jump off that boat and go surfing sometimes, but a lot of times that couldn't be my reality. I had to deal with the priority of keeping the boat safe first. Interesting. Did you make some mistakes where you put surfing ahead of your own instincts? Absolutely. Especially at the beginning. I left my boat unattended in some bay and would go off hitchhiking to find waves and end up meeting some nice people and spend the night somewhere. Luckily for me, I never had any big problems. I never got too big of a consequence from some of those decisions that I made. But I definitely—there was a learning curve at the beginning. I would get back, and I remember in Puerto Escondido, I'd left the boat at anchor, gone on a little surf mission for a couple of days and came back. And when we pulled up the anchor to leave, the rope—the anchor rode—had been chafing on something on the bottom, and there was just like a tiny bit of rope holding it. So I had those moments where I got really close to disaster and learned that I had to keep my priorities straight if I wanted to avoid a crisis.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Can you remember a day or a spot where you got the best waves?

Liz Clark
I mean, I got so many good waves. But there was a lot of time where there'd be long stints in between sometimes because I'd be stuck somewhere fixing something and be in a port with dirty water where there was no surf around. But I think that's what made those experiences when I finally did get—when all the elements came together—and there was a safe anchorage and the waves were on and I had somebody fun to surf with, it just made it so precious. Those experiences had to be so earned that they were sacred, you know? Yeah, so lots and lots of good waves out there. It's just a matter of going out and getting off the beaten path. I think sometimes in today's world, I feel like when we have it too easy, we do lose that depth of appreciation that does make something so special. And yeah, that can kind of affect our experience in a way, you know.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I agree. Pressure makes diamonds.

Liz Clark
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Is surfing—was surfing—the driving force behind the trip itself, or was it bigger than that?

Liz Clark
I think it was one of the principal driving forces. I think I also had this very deep desire to live really close to nature and simplify and kind of get away from this modern world that didn't always make sense to me. Always, from a young child, I wanted to protect nature and was an environmentalist and really wanted to go out there and try to experience a life where I could have a lower impact and live in alignment with my values in that way. And so I saw this journey as kind of a way to escape what I didn't think about the modern world and live those principles that I believed in. But yeah, surfing was absolutely a huge priority for me as well, you know.

Michael Frampton
Because you won, in 2001, you were the NSSA College Women's National Surfing Champ.

Liz Clark
Yeah.

Michael Frampton
So you've experienced competition surfing at a high level. And then you've also experienced what I would argue is probably the purest form of surfing, which is adventure and just surfing for the sake of surfing. So you've never chosen the easy path.

Liz Clark
No, I never really have. And I was so determined to get better at surfing in my teens, and I didn't come from a family of surfers. I didn't have any real role models close to me that could teach me to surf better. And so competition was a good way in my late teens and twenties to—I felt like—improve my surfing and meet other surfers and be part of the surf scene. But in the end, after I won that competition, I think I realized a few things. I realized that my love for surfing was more about those exploratory experiences. What I loved was being out there and going through nature, whether it was like sliding down a muddy hill or wondering what a certain break was going to be like on a certain tide and going for that adventure and figuring it out. I definitely found myself lighting up more in those moments. Then competition started to feel stressful and not as fun, I guess. I also kind of realized, coming without a surfing background—like without that in my family—the surfing world at that time, especially as a woman, seemed like you needed a lot of support. You needed to know people. It was kind of like a who's who thing at that point as well, and I didn't have that. I thought pursuing professional surfing is going to be really hard for me with the background that I have. So yeah, it seemed like, especially when the opportunity presented itself and this mentor came into my life who wanted to offer me this boat, it was like I can use all of this experience that I have growing up on boats, combine it with my love for exploratory surfing, and this is just like the epitome of my voyaging dreams and my surfing dreams coming together.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. What's some advice for surfers listening who want to improve their surfing? And I don't necessarily mean that only from a performance perspective. I think people want to get better at surfing not just to surf more difficult waves or catch more waves, but also to improve their relationship with surfing itself. So what advice would you give to surfers listening out there along those lines?

Liz Clark
I think my biggest advice would be to keep remembering that it's all about enjoying yourself and having fun. No matter if you're surfing more difficult waves or improving in the way that the surf world deems as being a better surfer, I think focusing on going out there to enjoy yourself and remembering the benefits of camaraderie and meeting other surfers—I think those are the important things to remember. I used to be so hard on myself if I didn't have a good session, and once I set out on the voyage and had this much more pure experience of surfing, I let go of a lot of those expectations on myself and really started to focus in on doing it because it's just so great. And when you do end up having one of those moments of improvement or when things come together for you, it's just so wonderful. But focusing too hard or putting too much pressure on yourself often backfires and makes it less enjoyable, and even causes you to not improve quickly because you're feeling negative about yourself or the situation.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I think the letting go aspect increases the chance of a flow state, and really the deeper you get into a flow state is when time slows down and you read the wave at a better level and therefore you surf better. Absolutely. Yeah, and the more of those states you enter, over time the better your surfing gets overall.

Liz Clark
Yeah, it's so much more about your connection to the ocean. Take, for example, the surfing of Leah Dawson. You think about her—she just breaks all the rules and does it her way, and that's what makes it so special. In my opinion, she's one of the best women surfers there is. So I think bringing your own charisma, your own personality into it and finding what feels good and enjoying it is really the way to go.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I agree. Karina Rozunko comes to mind—she's such a free spirit in the way she surfs, always looks like she's in a flow state. How often do you surf nowadays?

Liz Clark
As often as I can, which ends up being probably three to four times a week.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, awesome. And you're based in Tahiti now?

Liz Clark
Yeah, I'm lucky for sure.

Michael Frampton
Is it the pick of the... after all your travels around the Pacific, was that your highlight?

Liz Clark
Yeah, I fell in love with French Polynesia for a lot of reasons, and waves were definitely on that list. But also the people and the culture here. I met my now husband, and so there were a lot of things that have kept me here. But yeah, the quality of the surf is so good, and I ended up wanting to stay here longer because at the time I was like, I'm only going to be able to surf waves of this level for so long. And it's funny because now I'm 44 and I'm surfing better than I ever have. It's all relative—it's all about staying healthy and continuing to enjoy it. My relationship with surfing, like anything, has its ups and downs or its moments where things plateau and you don't feel the same inspiration. But I'm at a really good place with surfing right now. It remains a huge source of re-inspiration and re-powering for me. I'm doing a ton of community activism and work here for the environment and for animals, and I give a lot of energy all the time. Then, when the waves turn on, it's like, okay, it's my turn, it's my time. I need to go fill my cup back up, and it really helps keep me going to be able to give.

Michael Frampton
Awesome. You mentioned you're surfing better now than ever at 44. What do you put that down to?

Liz Clark
Maybe just time in good waves, but also for sure taking care of my body, eating healthy, yoga—all of those things have allowed me to stay physically fit enough to keep doing it at the level that I'm doing it. So yeah, a combination of all those things, I guess.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I think traveling to good tropical locations with good, uncrowded waves is probably the best thing you can do for your surfing—both to get better and just to experience surfing the way it should be.

Liz Clark
Yeah, and I think too for me, all those years while I was living on Swell and the boat was my main residence, I always had to have the boat as the focal point. Like I said before, it just had to be the priority. Since late 2018, I moved onto land and have a land base and have been able to put more time into surfing, which has really allowed me to not stay at that same level where I would get to do it just enough to feel something again and make an improvement. Now I can go back out soon and just be able to improve quicker because my focus can be more right on that versus "this thing's broken and I got to take the boat to this other island to do this VAT." Always some sort of complication of living on the ocean.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I can imagine. Back to your voyage—did you take books with you?

Liz Clark
Oh yes, tons of books stuffed into all the compartments.

Michael Frampton
And if you had to choose only three of those books to recommend to others, what would they be?

Liz Clark
Okay, let's see. Top three books. I would say maybe in terms of self-growth and self-awareness, I would choose The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. For adventure books, I think it would be between the book Audrey Sutherland wrote called Paddling and The Long Way by Bernard Moitessier. It's more of a sailing book, but his way of describing his relationship with the ocean and the way he kind of rebels against society—I saw a lot of our journey in that and really related to his story. I just recently read a book that I love called Hōkūleʻa: How I Keep Rising. It's the story of the Hōkūleʻa and how Polynesian navigation was kind of rediscovered through Nainoa Thompson and how they built this traditional sailing canoe and did the journey to Tahiti. It's so incredible learning how they rediscovered the use of the stars and the sky and the chart—it was fascinating.

Michael Frampton
Highly cool. Thanks for those recommendations.

Liz Clark
I'll make sure they're in the show notes.

Michael Frampton
I wanted to ask you—you sort of mentioned it before—femininity. How would you define that word? And how has the definition of it changed since you left Santa Barbara all those years ago?

Liz Clark
Well, I think growing up in Southern California, I had this impression that femininity had to be a certain way and that beauty in general and femininity were kind of wrapped up in this one sort of way that women were supposed to look. When I got out on my voyage, it took me years to break down those principles in my mind. It was so ingrained in me that femininity equaled pink dresses and big hair and lipstick and the things that are traditionally kind of associated with femininity. Understanding my own version of femininity and allowing myself to not only explore that but validate to myself what femininity could look like—being in places way off the beaten path where women weren't raised with those ideals at all and their confidence and beauty—I began to see femininity in a new light through a lot of these women that I met in these really remote places. I saw that it has so much more to do with your confidence and owning yourself and what you love. So yeah, being able to start incorporating those ideas into my own definition and version of femininity changed my life so much. To accept that I wasn't the girl who wanted to wear frilly dresses, but I was and am feminine in such a beautiful way. The femininity that is part of me is what allowed me to slow down and embrace nature in a way that maybe the more masculine side of me never really allowed. Especially trying to go out there and be a captain and live in this very male-oriented world of being a boat owner and even a surfer—these were male-dominated scenes that I was pushing myself into. I thought I had to be masculine to succeed and to fit in. When I allowed myself to embrace my style of femininity, I think it really allowed me to succeed and be proud of myself in a new way. It definitely changed the way I sailed, changed the way I surfed, and made my life a lot more enjoyable because I embraced who I really am.

Michael Frampton
Wow, I love that. So the subtitle is Sailing Surfer’s Voyage of Awakening. It's very apt, but it's not just awakening in one aspect—it's spiritual, relationships, your relationship with the ocean and surfing, your diet and how it's affected your health. It's a very broad and awesome book—there's so much in it. Just as we finish off, let me ask you: if there was one piece of advice from this book that you could give to your younger self, what would that be?

Liz Clark
I think it would be to embrace those obstacles as opportunities. Embrace challenges as something to learn from. Embrace difficult people as your chance to practice your virtues. It's kind of the same kernel right there, which would have allowed me to avoid a lot of pain and frustration as a young person, I think. And really to just be myself and love myself and embrace who I am no matter what other people thought. And don't compare myself to others as much.

Michael Frampton
Nice. Love that. So, swellvoyage.com—is that the best place for people to find out more about you?

Liz Clark
Yeah, they can find out about me there and as well on Instagram at Captain Liz Clark.

Michael Frampton
Awesome. Well Liz, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to chat with Surf Mastery and my listeners. I will have links to all of that stuff in the show notes for listeners. And yeah, I encourage everyone to read the book and follow you on Instagram. Do you have any adventures coming up?

Liz Clark
What's next? Well, I'm currently undertaking an adventure to spay and neuter all the dogs on the island where I'm living—dogs and cats. My nonprofit is undertaking a big campaign this year to reduce overpopulation and animal suffering here on this island. I've kind of shifted my adventure into community activism, and for the moment I don't have a big sailing venture on the horizon, but I'm really enjoying this really different sort of adventure. Having to work with others and work with the government and the municipality—it has its challenges in a whole new way, so that's great.

Michael Frampton
All right. Well Liz, thank you so much for taking the time.

Liz Clark
Yeah, thank you so much for the invite and the nice questions. Appreciate it.

103 Captain Liz Clark - Adventure Surfer

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

Ever wondered what it takes to paddle back to the boat after cracking your skull open on a reef—and then surf again the next day?

In this powerful and raw episode, Matt Grainger recounts the most serious injury of his surfing life and breaks down the mindset, fitness, and breathwork tools that helped him survive, recover, and return to surfing. Whether you’re battling niggling injuries or just want to surf smarter as you age, this episode is packed with life-saving tips and surf longevity gold.

• Hear Matt's gnarly reef injury story and the step-by-step actions that kept him from infection or worse

• Learn the mobility and strength training practices that keep him charging Indo barrels at 55

• Discover overlooked health tips for surfers—from reef cut recovery to sleep and sunlight exposure

Hit play now to learn how to surf longer, recover faster, and avoid the mistakes that can sideline your progress and health.

For more insights and tips from Matt Grainger:

Follow Matt Grainger: Instagram - mattgraingersurf & Linkedin - Matt Grainge

Follow Michael John Frampton: Instagram - @surfmastery & Website: https://surfmastery.com/

Key Points

• Reef Collision & Injury: Matt recounts a terrifying reef impact at low tide—being catapulted headfirst, fracturing his skull, and stitching out coral fragments before the session ended.

• First-Aid & Infection Prevention: Detailed reef-cut care tips: scrub with a clean toothbrush, use peroxide/iodine/alcohol wipes, rinse with bottled water, apply powder (EVP), and wear protective footwear.

• Helmets & Safety Gear: After the incident, Matt adopts a soft-shell surf helmet for heavy, shallow-reef breaks to prevent re-opening cuts and concussion.

• Surf Fitness & Mobility: At 55, Matt surfs daily and credits a gym regimen of mobility drills, strength training (Olympic rings, squats), breath training (4-sec inhale/6-sec exhale), and sprinting for injury reduction and performance.

• Age & Mindset: Emphasizes the power of positive self-talk around aging, citing Bruce Lee’s “spelling spells” concept, and shares his belief in staying mentally youthful through passion for surfing.

• Mind-Body Connection: Michael and Matt discuss placebo-style health benefits from circadian alignment (morning sun exposure), grounding (barefoot in sand/ocean), and limiting blue-light before bed.

• Surfing as a Puzzle: Every wave presents a unique challenge—from takeoff to turn execution—keeping surfing engaging and motivating across conditions.

• Wave-Pool Coaching Masterclass: Matt describes running Indo clinics at the Sydney wave pool: expert-mode barrel clinics, AI video analysis (FlowState), mobility drills for tube riding, and apnea (breath-hold) training.

• Take-Home Tips: Consistent cut-care, helmet use in gnarly reef breaks, small “movement snacks” throughout the day, mobility + strength focus, and maintaining a fun, puzzle-solving mindset.

Outline

Podcast Introduction

• Michael Frampton welcomes listeners to Surf Mastery Podcast.

• Episode ethos: education + inspiration for better surfing and life.

• Guest intro: Matt Grainger—mid-50s, lifelong ripper, surf coach, health & fitness advocate, four-time guest.
  Brief mention of show extras: free PDFs (top tips & exercises), personal coaching, YouTube video version.

Matt’s Reef Collision Story

• Setting: Macca’s wave, two-swell day, paddle contest with friend Sean.

• The wipeout: foam-ball pump, wave turns, head-first reef impact at low tide.

• Immediate aftermath: heavy bleeding, coral fragments, self-rescue to pontoon.

First-Aid & Infection Prevention

• Coral extraction with tweezers and toothbrush scrub under peroxide/alcohol.

• Two-hour stitching process; breath-training to manage stress.

• Infection cautionary tale: fellow surfer Kat’s flesh-eating microbe and staph from minor foot cuts.

• Recommended kit: clean spare toothbrush, iodine/alcohol wipes, EVP powder, protective footwear.

Helmet Adoption & Safety Gear

• Description of soft-shell rugby-style surf helmet (like Tommy Carroll’s).

• Protocol: wear in gnarly, shallow-reef conditions; continued use at G-Land.

• Benefits: prevents re-opening cuts, reduces concussion risk.

Surf Fitness & Mobility Regimen

• Daily routine: gym at Surfers’ Gym—mobility drills, Olympic rings pull-ups, split squats.

• Breath training: Resident breathing technique (4-sec inhale, 6-sec exhale).

• Strength focus: leg-dominant work, rotator-cuff prehab, single-leg balance (eyes closed), pendulum jumps.

• Nutrition & recovery: two meals/day, bone broth, black coffee + coconut oil, ice baths + sauna.

Age, Mindset & Motivation

• Positive self-talk: avoiding “I’m old” narrative; Bruce Lee quote on words as spells.

• Harvard placebo study on environment and physiological improvement.

• Surfing as the ultimate motivator for healthy choices: diet, sleep, training.

Mind-Body Connection & Health Hacks

• Morning sun exposure for circadian alignment; limiting blue-light pre-sleep.

• Grounding via barefoot time in sand/ocean; negative-ion benefits.

• Infrared and light-health emerging trends; balancing time and resources.

Surfing as a Puzzle

• Every wave’s variables: drop style, speed generation, foot placement.

• Board evolution: modern shapes enabling more accessible performance.

• Interview with son Mason on board tech improvements driving performance.

Wave-Pool Coaching Masterclass

• Weekly clinics at Sydney wave pool: 5’3″ Bobby quads, 20+ waves in an hour.

• Indo masterclass: video breakdown of tube riding, foot placement drills, mobility patterns.

• AI FlowState analysis: personalized feedback on technique.

• Apnea training session in heated pool; reef-cut & first-aid workshop by Dr. Shaz.

Closing & Calls-to-Action

• Michael’s school-pickup notice, thanks to Matt.

• Subscribe, rate & review on Spotify/Apple Podcasts; watch on YouTube.

• Visit surfmastery.com for blog tips, PDFs, and online coaching.

• Sign-off: “Until next time, keep surfing.”

Transcription

Matt Grainger
I have a nice snap in my head that I took off, made the drop, I was on the foam ball and as I was pumping on the foam ball, the wave turned the corner. So I just got catapulted on the foam ball, thrown in and out head first. And as soon as my head landed, the lip hit the back of my neck and just drove me straight into the reef like instantly. It was only like two foot deep, it was low tide and I just, it was just like bang. And I was like oh, oh no. I got a bit on here. I had like 25 stitches here, five stitches here and I just went, I knew the session was over and I just paddled back. Getting myself back. I almost forgot this anyway, so I went back and got on the pontoon and just started pouring bottled water over my head. I'd cracked, I'd actually like fractured my skull but it was actually bits of coral coming out of my head. And then pulling bits of coral out with the tweezers and then got toothbrushed for an hour and just was scrubbing it. What, scrubbing it all with peroxide or iodine or something? Yeah, just with light alcohol. Oh yeah.

Michael Frampton
Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Frampton. And the ethos of this show is education and inspiration for better surfing and a better surfing life. And Matt Grainger, today’s guest, not only was a huge part of the inspiration for the birth of this show, but he epitomizes that ethos as well. He is in his mid-50s now and he's still out there surfing a ton and stays fit and healthy for surfing and also teaches others to be better surfers and better people through better surfing mindset, health and fitness, etc. Matt is just a pure inspiration in the surfing world and just an absolute frother and a rips. He rips. He's an incredible surfer and stoked to get him back on the show. And like I said, he first appeared back in episode number one. This will be his fourth appearance. He also appeared in episode 30 and episode 55 as well. And without further ado, I shall fade in my conversation, my fourth conversation on this podcast with Matt Grainger from Manly Surf School.

Matt Grainger
So how are you? Great, mate. Yeah. Just did a trip to Indo, which is nice.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. The head looks like it's all healed up. The head's good. Look at that. I'm a good healer.

Matt Grainger
I can tell. Good job. Yeah. It's an improvement. Yeah, she gave me a facelift while she did it.

Michael Frampton
Oh, sweet.

Matt Grainger
Is that your worst injury out there? Yeah, definitely. I've never hit my head ever in any reef in Indo or anywhere. I've obviously had bullets in the head. Some good cuts in the eyes, always the right eye. Must be the way I turn my head. Just haven't had time to put the hands up. Funny, you learn the surf way, tell people to put your hands up. Done it successfully a few times, but sometimes it's got through. A lot of fins in the back of the head. But yeah, never hitting the head on the bottom of the reef. I had the reef crack under my head with nailing. As I got smashed, just instant, like, just heard this, and I just heard the reef just snap in my head, just heard this crack. And I was like, oh. Like, you know when you say stuff, oh, that's not good. And then I popped up. I popped up, then another wave hit that, and there was bursts of blood vessel in the top of my head. So there was heaps of blood. So I couldn't see out of my left eye. And I felt that I hit my nose as well. I said to one of the Indo guys, Wayway, who is one of the managers of Macca's Resort, I said, have I still got my left eye and my nose? And he goes, yep. And I said, oh, we're good to go then.

Michael Frampton
How did it happen? Was it just a freak random thing, or was it a lapse in concentration, or what?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, it was a bit of the ego took over. Every day was the best day ever. We had the first swell in June. And this one day, oh, just got bigger and bigger, and it had a lot of south in it. There were two swells. It was like a south swell and a bit of southwest as well. So you could get a chip in. You could chip in from behind on the tower, and you could backdoor where you'd usually take off, so you'd get more barrel time. And I was riding this Magic 6'0 CI Pro 1 that I've had for about a year. Felt unreal under the feet. I'd been riding it all day straight. And then this guy, Sean, came out from South Africa. He rocked up on a boat. Him and I started paddling up the reef and just trading wave after wave and making them. So we’re just making these unbelievable tubes, and no one came up there because, you know, it was pretty gnarly. So if you fell, it was like two foot deep, and it was like an eight foot swell. So when Macca's, probably eight to ten, you probably saw footage of Nathan Florence. I don't know if you saw some of the footage of him in HTs. It was like ten to twelve foot HTs that day, whereas Macca's doesn't get bigger. It just gets thicker. So it's probably six to eight foot, but really thick, like a Chopes kind of wave. You get this drop. You can make this really nice drop and then come in with speed. And just if you made it, you're fine. But if you didn't make it, that's what happened. So after five hours, I actually wasn't even tired. It was after like five hours, I was just getting cocky, and I probably should have gone in. It was more like one more, one more. And Sean and I were trying to outdo each other, and he actually snapped his board on his last wave, and I snapped my head. But I took off, made the drop, was on the foam ball. As I was pumping on the foam ball, the wave turned a corner, so kind of that southwest angle of the wave. So it turned a massive corner. So I just got catapulted on the foam ball, and I got thrown in out head first. And as soon as my head landed, the lip hit the back of my neck and just drove me straight into the reef like instantly. It was only like two foot deep. It was low tide, and I just, it was just like bang. I was like, oh, oh, no. I got a bit on here. And then I went into warrior mode. I went into warrior mode, you know, where I'd said, ask the Wayway if my eyes were okay. I actually got a cut there as well, so I got a cut. I got cuts either side of the nose. Down here on the bottom of the nose as well, on this eye, and obviously here, I had like 25 stitches here, five stitches here, and I just went, oh, I knew the session was over, and I just paddled back. Everyone was like, oh, get a boat. Everyone's screaming, get a boat, get a boat, Matt's hurt. I'm like, I'm good, I'm good. Get myself back on my own, you know. One guy goes, yeah, good on ya. This guy, Hans from America, he goes, good on ya, tough guy. I'm like, nah, I've got this, I've got this. Anyway, so I went back and got on the pontoon and just started pouring bottled water over my head, and then I got the boat back to Macca's and then looked for showers, and she was already stitching up my brother. He had a little cut on his back. And then someone said, oh, Matt's looking for you, he cut his head, and she thought, if he's asking for something, he's in a bad way. So then she saw my head, and she thought I'd actually fractured my skull, but it was actually bits of coral coming out of my head. Far out. So she pulled that, pulled the bits of coral out. She got some local, which was good, and just put it in the cuts, and then pulling bits of coral out with tweezers and then got a toothbrush for an hour and just was scrubbing it. That was the gnarly part.

Michael Frampton
Scrubbing it all with peroxide or iodine or something?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, just with light alcohol. Just so you don't kill the flesh too much. Not too gnarly, but just getting it all out, and I reckon that saved me for sure. Then obviously it took about two hours to stitch up, which was gnarly. And I was just doing a lot of breath training, like coaching, wrapping it, training, and I saw resident breathing, which was like a four-second inhale, six-second exhale. I was just going into that, and that helped big time. That was like a three-hour ordeal, which felt like a long time, but it wasn't as long as I thought. And then she put a face mask over it, which I couldn't see. And then, yeah, the rest is history. And then I surfed the next day.

Michael Frampton
Our kid did not. Yeah, I know.

Matt Grainger
He taped it up. I just said, I'll get one wave. I'll get one wave, and I did some tests, like I was jumping on one leg, see if I had concussion. And then, oh, no, not well in the head anyway. And then I wore a helmet, of course. And then I didn't surf for, after that day, I didn't surf for three and a half days. And then after that, I was good to go. I was having four tablets of antibiotics every day, washing it with fresh water. She was breaking up antibiotics and putting it inside the cut as well. Yeah. And she left a little bit of one of the gnarly cuts in it too tight, so bits of coral would still come out if it did. Just a little bit's popping out. Far out. So, yeah, so I'm wearing a helmet from now on when it's gnarly like that. So I went to G-Land after that. We had another swell at Macca's and surfed Greenbush. So I had one of those soft-shell helmets that Tommy Carroll wears. Yeah. By DMC. It's like a rugby helmet. Yeah, yeah. But they're nice and light. Yeah, so I wore that. That felt good. And then I wore it in G-Land. Every surf, even, because I didn't want to get hit and break the cuts open anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got the stitches out after six days. Really, it healed well. Yeah. Dope. Wow. But from now on, if it's gnarly and low tide and heavy, I'll be wearing a helmet.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, fair enough.

Matt Grainger
But I like getting a concussion and brain damage or losing an eye or nose or whatever.

Michael Frampton
Oh, yeah. I mean, any sort of coral cut infection is such a huge risk, right?

Matt Grainger
I reckon. Like, even, there was a girl, there was actually a girl out in the water. Her name's Kat. She does events every year for about six months with her and her partner. And they had a longboat with a solar panel on top and just go around the islands. And she had a cut on her foot. She went to seek a cut and just had a shower. But that got, that sort of told, and she told me this story like a week before. Then she got this flesh-eating microbe in her foot and she basically went delirious and had to go to, she went to Padang and their hospital was too dirty and gnarly. So Hans got her out of there. Carried her to the Bassberry. Then went to Jakarta and she had like three skin grafts. And then back to LA. Yeah, just from that. So that straightaway, I was like, I'm not getting my head touching any, any, any shower water. So I was just, it sounds very first world, but I was just, every time I washed my head, it was just with bottled water. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a good tip for people out there. Oh, yeah. Yeah, look after your cuts. Yeah, always look after my cuts, even feet, you know. I went to Chopes. First time I went to Chopes in 2000, I got these tiny little cuts on my feet and it was the last day. And I was like, alright, last day, who cares? And then I got home and I got staph. I couldn't walk. Oh. Went to my glands and straightaway I was on antibiotics and prednisone and it went away, but that was nasty. So that taught me a good lesson.

Michael Frampton
Mm.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, so get on, get onto your reef cuts quickly, people, when you go to the tropics.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, you've got to clean them, eh? I remember I touched the reef in Arugam Bay in Sri Lanka once, like just got this tiny little graze, thought nothing of it, just put like a little bit of iodine cream on it, that's all I did. And then two days later it's just like 50 cent welt that's just throbbing. And you had to get some antibiotics, so should have just scrubbed it out with a toothbrush and done the right thing at the time. But it was such a small cut, you thought nothing of it, but there must have just been little bits of coral in there or something.

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Yeah, that was like the ones on the feet at Chopes, tiny little, like little nicks. Mm. Yeah, so, yeah, to get the, yeah, so the tip from Shaz, Dr. Shaz, my partner, take, always have like a spare toothbrush that's clean. You can even get it from, you can get it from the hotel, but you never brush your teeth with it, that's totally clean, and just scrub it, scrub it. Use the little wipes, the iodine alcohol wipes, so you do one-offs, nothing else dirty, and then just keep checking it, yeah. And there's that Teo Gin that's pretty good from Indo, you know, that Chinese, that red bottle, that's always cool, the Chinese, it's called Teo Gin, or they don't use cream, she said, because in the tropics, use the powder, the EVP powder. Yeah. The powders are the go, yeah. Okay. So that's the go, and then cover them up, yeah. If you do your feet too, I always wear shoes, people give me heaps of crap in Indo, because I'm always wearing, if I've got cuts, I'll put shoes on, because you're walking around and you get dirt in the cut. Yeah, so, it's important, you always forget, especially, you're like, oh no, I'll be right, or, you know, you see so many guys just get smashed and don't even do anything.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Oh yeah, it's not worth the risk. Oh, so you're still out charging, catching heaps of waves?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, still surfing a lot, pretty much surf every day, sometimes twice, got the gym, the surfers' gym, which is good, that keeps you fit and healthy, like, working on the mobility that you told me a year ago, and yeah, just building on that. I think that's a big case, mobility as we get older, and even the younger athletes that we coach too. I've got some pros that train at our gym and we've got them on a mobility program where it's strength training, and I've found, lately, like, in the last few years, like, having the mobility and also the strength training is huge, just for reducing injury, keeping strong. Like, I'm 55 this month, and don't even talk about your age too. It's really important what you say out of your mouth, you know. There's that quote by Bruce Lee, it's like, be careful what you say with your words, because that's why it's called spells and spelling. Like, you're saying, oh, you hear heaps of guys walk around and go, oh, I'm done, I'm old, I'm an old man, and all this, and you're like, hey mate, like, no, it's all relative. Like, we don't, what, it's time really, anyway, you know. Like, just this thing we've made up, but, you know, biological age, and if you keep yourself fit and healthy and moving and eat well, sleep well, you can keep rocking till you're in your 80s.

Michael Frampton
I reckon. Yeah, man. Oh, I was just reading, listening to a book, actually, about all of that, and this Harvard professor did an experiment where she got a bunch of 80-year-old men, and she put them in a house where everything in the house was as if it was 30 years ago, and they were only allowed—so the TV programs, the books, the furniture—and they were only allowed to talk about things as if it was 30 years ago or in the present. And within a few days their eyesight improved, like, their blood pressure improved, everything, just by, just like placebo, like, extreme placebo effect.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, I've got to get that book.

Michael Frampton
It's a rad book. I'll forward it to you and I'll put it in the show notes for listeners too. I think it's called The Mind-Body Connection or something. I'll put it in the show notes and I'll send it to you.

Matt Grainger
And even, when I was at—not trying to name drop here—but when I was at Nazare, I towed Lad back to the harbour because he broke down, and it's quite funny, like, it was a big day, like, 60-foot perfect Nazare. And I was with Lucas Padua who's from the Mavericks who trains with Lad. He was towed with me and we were just shifting partners all day. And then I said, oh, your mate Lad, like, I didn't even know Lad anyway from then. And I said, your mate Lad's out at sea doing nothing. We should go check on him. And he was like, yeah, yeah, alright. So we hammered out to Lad and he goes, yeah... yeah... yeah... yeah...

Michael Frampton
Yeah...

Matt Grainger
Like I couldn't give a stuff what I look like. I just wanna be out there, catch a wave and still be able to surf. My brother and I just went to Macaronis together and we're both chatting that we probably surf better now than we were in our mid-twenties. Just got some boards that are better, we've got more knowledge and we've kept our bodies good. Yeah. Yeah, we've had no serious accidents. So that's lucky. You know, obviously head knocks and all that kind of stuff, but nothing like—I haven't broken any major bones, like bloody broken hands and things like that. But not, you know, I haven't broken a femur or anything. Yeah, so some guys obviously are at a disadvantage if they've had a major injury, but I haven't had any major injuries. I mean now I've realized I still always think when I had a niggle—like a nip, like a niggling hip or, you know, you had to go to chiropractic, you have to do this, you have to do that—you can kind of push through it and move through it. I found that like—and if it's really serious, obviously go and see a physician, which is good—and yeah, you can get a really good massage or just to break that tissue down. But I found now you can move through pain and throughout the whole day. Like not—yeah, everyone thinks I've got to train for an hour and that's it so I don't do it. You know, you can do little snacks like 10 minutes here, you know, 10 minutes in the morning, another 10 minutes at lunchtime, another two minutes here and another two minutes and eventually kind of work through it. I remember when you were working together. You were pretty on to that early in early days. Good diets. I got into my fasting which is good. Very much two meals a day. Love the bone broth. I'm doing coffee, always be black coffee, a little bit of coconut oil. So yeah, that's just all these little hacks that we're learning, helping along the way I reckon.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, but you've got that motivation. You want to keep surfing, you want to keep going to Indo, and that's what, yeah, that's what gets you—okay, no, I'm not going to have that donut. I'm going to go to bed early because I want to go and get barreled at Indo. Like, I know it's such a good motivator.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, and that's it. Keeps you young. Keeps you young and young in the head too. And looking at boards that, you know, I still ride shortboards, more shortboards like a 5'9", and I've got a 5'3" Bobby quad that I ride in the wave pool. Yeah, I can still ride shortboards. Yeah, and just having that money and the boards have got so good now, you know, just the rockers and the things all the shapers—and I remember what Michael Ho, I was talking with my son Mason, I saw in an interview that he said, oh Dad, why do you think you're ripping so much now? And he goes, the boards. And Michael's like, doesn't care, you know. He doesn't have Instagram or Facebook. He's just surfing. And I've seen Coco out in the water when she's in Indo or here and she said, yeah, Pops is just proper. So he's not thinking about how he's 60 and he's charging, you know. Yeah, he's right. We've got new blades and getting tubed at Backdoor and even on the backside at Ala Moana and things like that. But yeah, that's the motivation—surfing. Yeah, it's such a fun sport and I just always say to people it's a puzzle. You know, every time we go for a surf, you're trying to work out that puzzle. It doesn't matter if it's one-foot Longy or it's 20-foot Bommies or it's crazy tubes in Indo. You're still trying to figure out how you're going to paddle in, how you're going to get to your feet, how you're going to generate speed. Is it a straight down drop? It's a knifing drop. Am I going to get my front foot early? All these little things just come into play from all those years of experience. And you're trying to work out that puzzle. And then it's one foot, you just want to go and do one big turn on a one-footer and you're happy. So that's what keeps me motivated. Some days, even if it's crap, I'll still go out for like three waves and just, I'll get my three waves and go to work and train. And I like the training too. I've got rid of the cardio so much, sort of not really doing the cardio so much, the hours. Just strength and movement. If you do a good movement flow, you can get good cardio from that anyway, actually. Yeah, I've got my heart rate more today and you're actually getting flexy. Whereas you don't want to get stiff. And then just doing the right strength training. So you look at all the surfers now, it's all legs. Hardly any upper body, only back and legs. You don't want any chest and you don't want to overload the shoulders as well. Anyway, the rotator cuff exercises are really good. So light weights on the shoulders, nothing heavy so you can still get that mobility in your paddle and you've got the power from your back for your paddle. So a lot of the strength training is just Olympic rings, pull-ups, maybe some skin-the-cat. Yeah. Dumbbell pull-ups as well off the bench, all that kind of stuff. And then a lot of, obviously, squats with a barbell, goblet squats, front squats, split squats, all that kind of stuff is super important I reckon. So you're getting that mobility and doing the weights and getting that connection and feeling when you're doing the weight, not just doing it for the sake of it. Like doing those reps and really thinking about that rep. Are you just getting your body in those positions that you could do in the water or land? So when you go out there like a martial artist, you're ready to go. You drilled it so many times it becomes second nature.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, strength training's so good. It's also for like—strength training increases your body awareness actually and just maintains your bone density. It's just, it's so cool. And if you're doing it—yeah, do upper body, lower body—it doesn't get any more kind of hard of a cardio workout than doing like a strength training circuit if you want to, you know, get the heart rate up. What sort of stuff are you doing for the hips, like in your regime?

Matt Grainger
Oh man, mine’s—I had ACL surgery in my early 20s, and it’s now almost, so, you know, bone on bone basically. So a lot of my training is just keeping on top of that. So like slow moving heavy stuff with—you know that, have you seen the Knees Over Toes guy?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah, he's awesome.

Matt Grainger
I do backwards walking on the treadmill and just, yeah, following some of his stuff and sticking to keeping the legs strong. Because it’s interesting because they say it's bone on bone, right? And it can get like that, but your cartilage is gone, your cartilage doesn’t really come back. But there is scar tissue that forms where the cartilage was. As long as that scar tissue’s there, you’re fine. If you do too much stuff and that scar tissue wears away—so if you do too much volume and you don’t allow that scar tissue to heal and reform and the fluids to come back—then it can be bone on bone. You get a real sore joint. But so now, as long as I keep the volume of what I’m doing on the knee, it’s fine. I can actually—how many reps—sort of more like six reps, only a couple of sets, but, you know, because I’ve got a history of strength training, I know the form, I’m strong, I know what to do. Backwards walking on the treadmill and some band—lots of balance work as well, because it’s actually those small little twitching movements in the joint that do the most damage. So if your balance is on point and your joint is nice and stable, then that’s one of the big things as well. So keeping the balance—like single standing on one leg with your eyes closed. Little things like that.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, I do. I love the pendulum jumps. You know the pendulum jumps? So it’s a one-legged jump. And when I do that, my eyes closed as well. Yeah, when I coach a lot of the athletes as well, like before they’re competing, like I’ll say, like, we all do five jumps eyes open and then the last five closed, and it helps with that body awareness, you know, for late drops and big drops out of the lip and being aware of where their body is. Yeah. And I even did it when I cracked my head just to check if I had concussion. I was like, yep, I’m fine. You know, I’m not a doc, I’m not a doctor, but you can jump one-legged with your eyes closed, if you pretty much, and you’re fine, you don’t have concussion.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do a bit of sprinting as well. Sprinting is really good for you. So I do a bit of that and I still do like this bodyweight gymnastic style strength training as well. I’m still doing that, following a guy called Naughty Man—I can’t even pronounce his name. I think it’s Ido Portal. I can’t remember how to pronounce it. But it’s functional performance training. He’s doing a lot of really unique stuff. He’s worth a follow. He’s pretty out there with some of what he says, but he’s also got some really interesting tips. A lot of, you know, not necessarily heavy weights, but functional stuff. He’s worth a follow. Yeah, and just keeping on top of the diet and sleep, man. That’s like you mentioned, man.

Matt Grainger
Just keeping a clean diet, getting enough sleep and giving a good balance of rest and stress. Because, yeah, life can get stressful, but that’s only what you make it really. But yeah, if you sleep well, you have a good sleep, you can conquer anything really. Hey, I find too the shoulders are important—like the rotator—and a couple of lessons for it. So if you keep on top of that, just like maintenance work, like prehab, like light weights, like 10% of your body weight. Mm-hmm. Just getting in all those different angles because you do—you know when you’re paddling super hard trying to make that wave when it’s hollow—you’re going to put a lot of stress on the shoulder joint. And I’ve seen so many mates—like, you got to look at your mates who’ve had surgeries, you know what I mean? Like it’s always shoulders, knees and spine pretty much. Get ahead of the game.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, hanging, hanging for your shoulder. I had a really good—just hanging. Active and passive hanging. And I mean, I’m lucky when I was living in the US, I did three different DNS courses.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember you doing that.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, and so I do a lot of that sort of rehab-style training still and that’s really good for shoulders and core. That helps keep my shoulders in check.

Matt Grainger
I remember. I remember you got injured and I did that DNS course. I think you did your hamstring, right?

Michael Frampton
Yes, right.

Matt Grainger
And it was the day before and you said, "Matty, can you do this?" I went, yeah, I did a whole week with you. That’s right. Yeah, it was massive. It was massive on hanging. And you know the rings too?

Michael Frampton
Yep.

Matt Grainger
Up on the rings. Rings are better for a surfer too. Like doing chin-ups, pull-ups on a ring because you get that nice rotate—you get that movement in the shoulder joint. Whereas just a straight bar, you don’t really get that movement because we actually reach out and rotate our shoulder as we paddle. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was pretty, it was an issue. Cool guy, full-on he is, but yeah, I learned a lot.

Michael Frampton
Hmm. Cool. Are you still doing ice baths?

Matt Grainger
Yeah. Ice bath and sauna. Got an ice bath in the backyard and sauna. We’re lucky. And we got two at the gym now. We’ve got two saunas and two ice baths.

Michael Frampton
Wow.

Matt Grainger
So yeah. Yeah, it’s good. Everyone loves them. Everyone’s created a little community there.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, it’s awesome. What about like, have you looked into light health?

Matt Grainger
I have seen it. I haven’t really done it personally. It looks pretty interesting. It’s just a matter of time and money, yeah. And I do have some infrared but like not some lighting, but you know, it’s not huge.

Michael Frampton
Have you been looking—it’s just really interesting. There’s this guy, Jack Kruse, has been on about it for years, like 20 years, but now there’s all these scientific studies coming out proving his theories right about how important sunlight exposure is for health and how it turns on certain genes, like the POMC gene, and how if you’re exposing yourself to too much blue light after the sun’s gone down, how that affects blood sugar and circadian rhythms. But I mean if you’re getting up and going surfing every day and getting to bed on time, it’s funny...

Matt Grainger
That’s all urban and all that, like, huh? Yeah, they say go out and play, you know, get the sun. And we live on the East Coast here, so every early surf you're like looking into the sun. Exactly. In the morning, you know, blinking going on. You know, different on the West Coast. Yeah, if we go to bed at the right time—and I try not to look at my phone before I go to bed. So yeah, I just try to banish that, put it away. Because yeah, that’s a bad habit, isn’t it? Just before, looking at the screen. Try and look at computers as well, onto that in that way. Yeah. Yeah, you can just go, yeah, just basic stuff. Yeah, keeping those circadian rhythms. I haven’t done the glasses or anything like that. Like the blue-light-blocking glasses. Yeah. Dave Asprey and whatnot.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, they get into it a lot.

Matt Grainger
They go hardcore on everything. They know how much is sort of a day. You think there’s a fine line between how much time you’ve got in a day?

Michael Frampton
Oh, exactly. But I mean, Dave and his mates, they’re spending a lot of money on—like Dave Asprey has a goal to live to 120. I think he might have even said 150. But like, and be healthy and functional at that age. So he’s making sure that, you know, every day he’s doing as much as he can. So those guys, I don’t know. I don’t know if I want to live that long.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, it's kind of sad. You kind of want to die normally, you know, like, I think with dignity. Yeah, like you don’t have to go...

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Because if you're the only one doing it and like, you’re still alive and healthy and all your friends are dead...

Matt Grainger
You're like, oh. What's the point? I mean, we talk about that all the time. Yeah, it's overboard. And almost, it brings a lot of anxiety I think too. Like trying to keep on point. Like you’re not actually—like they want to get to this goal of being this age, but they're not actually having fun in the present. Like it’s like, still got to live your life, hey. You still got to have fun with your friends, be with your friends. And you know, like I’m not like a tight—there's no way I’m a total monk. Like I still eat really well. But if, let's say, you know, if I'm with friends and family, I'm not going to go, I’m not eating that because I’m this. You know, like, yeah, I’ll still want to be part of the group, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, it’s not going to kill me. Yeah, I want to have a good time with my friends. I’m not going to be that guy. “Oh, I don’t do that because I want to live to 100.”

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I’m going to go to bed at 8 o’clock on Christmas Day because I want to live to 150. Yeah, it’s kind of like... really?

Matt Grainger
Yeah, whatever. What about if you get hit by a car? Exactly. You know, I don’t mean that in a bad way, but you’ve still got to... yeah. And it’s funny, like all this grounding. You know, we hardly wear shoes in Indo. You know, you hardly wear thongs. When I was hanging out with you, yeah, you hardly wore... I remember going, “Mate, are you wearing shoes today?” That'd be rare. Oh well, I had to get the remaining shoes.

Michael Frampton
I hate it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but that’s the thing, all the stuff that’s coming out in the latest health stuff from these guys, it’s what we do anyway. Especially as surfers—we get early morning sun, we’re getting lots of grounding work because we’re surfing in the ocean. That’s the best way to get your grounding done, is in the ocean or walking on the sand in bare feet. We’re getting it done.

Matt Grainger
Anyway. But it’s interesting these studies coming out and proving it. And by these tasks, you can—you can buy a grounding mat and walk outside, put your feet on the cold grass. You know, like, oh yeah, with cold sand. Like I’ve been surfing the wave pool a lot lately and it’s super fun, but you still don’t get that feeling of the energy of the ocean. Mmm. Like, you know, it doesn’t matter if you body surf, surf, bodyboard, whatever—you dive in the ocean for a swim, you always come out feeling amazing.

Michael Frampton
Oh yeah.

Matt Grainger
It’s from the negative ion, bro. Yeah, that’s part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, all of it. Yeah, and just maybe the soul energy of the waves, just being in nature. And yeah, it’s funny. You can go in the wave pool, you have a good time, but you don’t get that buzz or that feeling in your whole body from the natural waves.

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Matt Grainger
And the soul and all that.

Michael Frampton
How much time have you spent in the wave pools?

Matt Grainger
Ah, there’s a new one in Sydney now. Sydney. And every Thursday I teach a fitness class to the staff. I’ve been doing that for the past week. Yeah, I go out every Thursday and I make sure I surf from 4 to 5, and then I run the class at 5:30–6:30. So that’s pretty cool. Like I’ll ride a little 5’3 Bobby quad and get about 20 waves. And then we ran a—we ran a pretty cool course the other week. We did an Indo masterclass clinic. So we taught people how to ride left tubes. So we had the expert mode, which is just a barrel. It’s pretty cool. You take off, you can do a Rio or just a setup turn and get this nice tube. That’s a pretty cool tube—like the barrel is wider than it is high. Yeah, you get quite low in the tube and then kind of turn the corner of it like Macaronis. So we did about 30 minutes. I broke down all the best surfers in the world getting tubed, TV screen, had about 8 participants. And so we broke that down—foot placement for backhand, frontside, getting—and then we did movement patterns like mobility patterns to open up people’s hips and ankles. Because that’s pretty much what you need when getting low in tubes and most tube riding. So we did that, we went surfed for an hour. Everyone got about 12 waves. And then there’s an AI—it’s crazy—they film this AI called FlowState on the left and the right, but we’re only on the left. You come in and it’s got all the clips of you. So I got a coach’s password. So I went through everyone’s clips and wrote down what they were doing right, what they were doing wrong. Yeah, it was rad. And then we had lunch, and then we did apnea training. So then we went into their leisure pool, which is heated, because the wave pool is only about 11 degrees at the moment. Of course. Yeah, it’s quite cold. Yeah. So it’s like 28. Then we taught the science of breath-holding. Then we went and did it in the water. And then Shaz did a chat on Indo—what to take in your first aid kit and, you know, reef cuts. Yeah, it was awesome. That was a full day. It was fun.

Michael Frampton
Awesome. That sounds unreal. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes too.

Matt Grainger
Yeah, cool. That’d be great.

Michael Frampton
Alright, Matt. Hey, it’s just gone three o’clock. I better go do school pickup now, but thanks for doing the show again. I really appreciate it.

Matt Grainger
Awesome, brother. Take it easy. Good to catch up. Hopefully see you when you come to Sydney.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, for sure. We’ll be over there at some point. Keep me in the loop with the app.

Matt Grainger
Will do.

Michael Frampton
Alright. Thank you for tuning into the Surf Mastery Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Also, the best way that you can help support and grow the show is to subscribe, rate, and review on whatever app you’re using—Spotify, Apple Podcasts. And of course, we are now on YouTube so you can watch the video version of this podcast on YouTube. Be sure to check that out. Also, go to surfmastery.com for more surfing tips via the blog. You can also book in a personal online surf coaching session with me also at surfmastery.com. There are two free downloadable PDFs—one with the five best tips from this show and one the five best exercises to improve your surfing. So go to surfmastery.com. On the homepage there, you’ll see them. Until next time, keep surfing.

101 Want to Surf Stronger and Longer? Discover the Fitness Secrets With Matt Grainger

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.

Is your surfing stylish—or just frantic? Discover why true style isn’t about hand placement or pose, but something far deeper that starts with your form.

In this milestone 100th episode, surf legend Devon Howard breaks down one of surfing’s most misunderstood concepts—style. Drawing parallels to art, gymnastics, and even ancient sculpture, Devon explains how timeless, functional form—not forced flair—is the path to smoother, more satisfying surfing.

• Learn how efficient body mechanics create stylish surfing, even without trying

• Understand the subtle but powerful difference between natural style and contrived movement

• Discover why relaxed posture and patience—not aggression—unlock flow, trim, and that elusive “feel” of great surfing

Listen now to elevate your surf experience with expert insights into how style is born from form—and how you can start embodying both in the lineup.

Follow Devon Howard - Check out Devon’s surfing and updates on his Instagram: Devon_howard
Linkedin : https://www.linkedin.com/in/devon-howard-a4b2a613/.
Connect with Surf Mastery:
Surf Mastery Website: Download the free PDF with the top five tips from the Surf Mastery Podcast at surfmastery.com.
Instagram: Surf Mastery

Key Points

• Style in surfing is discussed, focusing on its subjective nature and the difficulty in defining it, with references to famous surfers like Joel Tudor and Joel Parkinson.

• A conversation on the importance of style in surfing, drawing parallels with other artistic expressions like gymnastics, dance, and bullfighting, highlighting the timeless human attraction to beauty.

• The evolution of style in surfing, from the 1960s to the modern era, is explored, discussing how competition surfing has influenced the emphasis on style versus radical maneuvers.

• A debate on whether surfers should prioritize style over radical maneuvers, with an emphasis on the importance of maintaining good form and efficient surfing techniques.

• The significance of style in longboard surfing competitions, where criteria include style, flow, and grace, is discussed, along with the challenges of training judges to evaluate these subjective qualities.

• The relationship between good form and style in surfing is highlighted, emphasizing that efficient form naturally leads to stylish surfing, much like in other sports such as golf and baseball.

• Advice is given on improving surfing style by focusing on form, being patient, and not rushing maneuvers, with an emphasis on the psychological and physiological benefits of adopting a relaxed and centered posture. 

Outline

Podcast Introduction and Episode Milestone

• Michael Frampson, the host of the Surf Mastery Podcast, introduces episode 100, a milestone for the podcast.

• Michael mentions the revamped website, surfmastery.com, which features a free PDF listing the top five tips from the Surf Mastery podcast.

• The special guest for this episode is Devon Howard, who has appeared in previous episodes discussing longboarding, nose riding, mid-lengths, and twin fins.

Feedback and Support

• Michael encourages listeners to provide feedback on the show by emailing [email protected], DMing on Instagram, or leaving a comment under the episode's visual.

• Listeners are also encouraged to support Devon Howard by following his Instagram.

Devon Howard's Background

• Devon Howard is currently working with Channel Islands in Santa Barbara, contributing to new surfboard models.

Grateful Dead Debate

• Michael and Devon discuss the debate between Britt Merrick and Chaz Smith about the Grateful Dead.

• Devon expresses indifference towards the Grateful Dead's music but acknowledges the strong case made by Britt Merrick for their cultural significance.

• The conversation highlights the difference between experiencing the Grateful Dead live versus listening to them on Spotify.

Other Live Performances

• Devon mentions Radiohead and James Brown as bands that are better experienced live.

• Michael shares his appreciation for Amp Fiddler's live performances and recommends catching the Action New Zealand Band live in Santa Barbara.

Origin and Evolution of the Word 'Style'

• Michael provides a summary of the etymology of the word 'style', tracing its evolution from a writing instrument to a manner of expression and eventually to a distinctive mode of dress.

• The discussion touches on the word's application in various contexts, including surfing.

Style in Surfing

• Devon defines style in surfing as a measure of good surfing and a marker of one's expression of surfing.

• The conversation explores the subjective nature of style, ranging from beauty to contrived and non-functional elements.

• Michael and Devon discuss the importance of style in surfing, relating it to efficiency, grace, and form.

Style vs. Radical Surfing

• The discussion contrasts style with radical surfing, noting that some surfers prioritize radical maneuvers over style.

• Examples of stylish surfers include Joel Parkinson, Kelly Slater, and Gabriel Medina, while Adriano D'Souza is mentioned as an example of a surfer with less emphasis on style.

Technical Aspects of Style

• Devon explains that good style is often a result of good form, which allows for efficient and seamless surfing.

• The conversation highlights the importance of relaxation, proper body positioning, and maintaining trim speed for optimal performance.

• Devon emphasizes that style should not be contrived but should naturally follow from good form and technique.

Style in Competition Surfing

• The discussion touches on the role of style in competition surfing, noting that while style was once a given, it has become less emphasized in recent decades.

• Devon mentions the inclusion of style, flow, and grace in the criteria for longboard surfing competitions.

• The conversation explores the potential for incorporating style more formally into shortboard competition criteria.

Efficiency and Neurological Efficiency

• Michael shares an example of how infants learn to stand efficiently due to their weakness, and how athletes maintain this efficiency for optimal form.

• The discussion highlights the importance of joint centration and proper bone stacking for efficient movement and force transfer.

Feeling Good Style

• Devon believes that good style can be felt, describing moments where the turn or movement feels right and looks good.

• The conversation emphasizes the connection between feeling good style and the overall surfing experience, including the reward and satisfaction derived from dedicated practice and learning.

Contrived vs. Natural Style

• Devon distinguishes between contrived style, where surfers try to present a certain look, and natural style, which arises from functional form and technique.

• The conversation advises against rushing surfing and emphasizes the importance of patience, proper form, and not forcing style.

Transcription

Devon Howard
When I—when I often think about style, there's always like—there's two camps. There's the people that get it, and style is usually—it's like, you know it when you see it. I said, how do you know that something's pornographic versus art or beauty? And a lot of times the answer is, well, you know when you see it. You know something is gross or smut as opposed to art.

Michael Frampton
Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and this is episode 100 of the podcast. A little bit of a milestone. Special guest for this episode. And we've also revamped the website, surfmastery.com, and on the front page of that website is a free PDF listing the top five tips from the Surf Mastery Podcast. So go to surfmastery.com and you can download that PDF for free. Today's guest—well, I was looking back through all the stats on this podcast, and the most downloaded episodes have been from Devon Howard, so it made sense to have him on episode 100. And so you can go back and listen to—he first appeared on the show, uh, episode 41, discussing longboarding and nose riding. Then it was back in, uh, episode 70. Uh, we talked about mid-lengths. In episode 86, it was twin fins. And today in episode 100, Devon Howard joins us again to discuss style. Style is something that is—it's fundamental. It's paramount for every type of surfing that is done, from traditional longboarding all the way through to high performance shortboarding. All of the greats, all of the most memorable surfers, have good style. They are stylish—from Joel Tudor in traditional longboarding through to Joel Parkinson as a high-performance, competitive shortboarder. Tom Curren, uh, mid-lengths and twin fins. You got Torren Martyn.

Michael Frampton
And of course, Devon Howard himself is a very stylish surfer. He's very smooth, very graceful on a longboard, on a mid-length, and a twin fin. We've even seen some footage of him riding, uh, three thrusters out there on his Instagram. And his style, his technique, his gracefulness runs throughout his surfing. So a perfect topic for us to discuss in episode 100. So I would love to hear your feedback on the show in general—the last 100 episodes and of course this episode. Go ahead, send us an email: [email protected]. Or you can DM me on Instagram or leave a comment under the, uh, the visual for this episode. And of course, support Devon Howard. Give his Instagram a follow. And of course, he's, uh, joining us from the Channel Islands office in Santa Barbara. Uh, Devon is currently working with Channel Islands—working on some new surfboard models as well. Some of the most popular boards recently he's been a part of. So without further ado, I shall fade in my conversation with Devon Howard. I actually see a lot of agreement between Brett and Chaz on this subject. Yeah, yeah, because there are—there are things, right, that you go to a Grateful Dead concert and you experience the show and the vibe—you don't really listen to them on Spotify.

Devon Howard
Yeah. It's—it's something to be enjoyed live.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. There's a certain style and vibe to them, I think, that come across differently in person than it does. And also the audience they sort of draw in. Yeah. Rather to the music on Spotify right there.

Devon Howard
There are two bands that I think are better live as well, which—I think Radiohead is better live. I like Radiohead. I think a lot of their albums are great. I've been to a few of their shows that I think—no, this is 10 or 15 years ago. I don't know if that's still the case, but at the time when they were really peaking, they were insane live. And then I also saw James Brown live. Oh, wow. 25 years ago. And that was incredible. Mhm. I mean, what a showman.

Michael Frampton
Yes. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, there's the Radiohead Live from the Basement—um, unbelievable. Like, gives you—I can't remember what album it is—they play in full from their studio, basement studio, and it just makes you appreciate them on a whole other level. Yeah. Just—just by watching that on YouTube, not even being there. Well, yeah. Um, I remember seeing a gentleman called Amp Fiddler, another one of the best live acts I ever saw. Um, gave me a new appreciation of his music. He's sort of new age funk slash reggae. Um, interesting music. Yeah. Catch a Fire. Catch a Fire—they're doing a tour through California at the moment. They're another unbelievable band live. Their live performance and sound is bigger than their studio albums. I think they’re actually a New Zealand band. You get a chance to see them—they often play in Santa Barbara. I forget the venue name. It's like a 500-capacity venue in Santa Barbara. They always play there.

Devon Howard
Is that the Bowl? I'm not sure.

Michael Frampton
Can't remember.

Devon Howard
Anyway, a lot of venues there, but yeah.

Michael Frampton
Style. Let's talk about style. Do you—yeah, what would—what do you—know the origin of the word?

Devon Howard
Um, I don't, but I'd imagine. Uh—well, I hope you did some research on it. Is it, um—the Latin word? Is it—Greek? Is it—where does it come from?

Michael Frampton
Let me sort of summarize from Etymology Online. From the early 14th century, it started out as a writing instrument—pen or stylus—a piece of written discourse or narrative, characteristic rhetorical mode of an author, a manner or mode of expression, a way of life, behavior. Then the word sort of transformed—the evolution of the word, uh, from writing tool went into writing, into manner of writing, into mode of expression in writing of a particular writer or author. Um, and then it was in the 1500s—it was paired with the word "substance," which basically meant back then, divine part or essence. That sort of gave the word a deeper meaning, including finer appearance or dashing character. Um, then it was—the word then went into an artist's particular mode or form of skilled presentation. That was later extended into athletics. Then by the 1800s it was "distinctive or characteristic mode of dress." Obviously it was more in regards to fashion. Um, and so there's a little bit of a history of the word. So I think there's a lot of depth to that. And it's certainly—it's very apt for surfing. A lot of those meanings, I think. Yes. Tell me what you think about style and how important it is.

Devon Howard
Well, style is, um—from my personal experience growing up, it was a—it was a measure of good surfing. And, um, it was a marker of, like, one's own presentation of their expression of surfing. Uh, I don't want to cheapen it by, I guess, using the word "brand," like your brand of surfing, but, um, everyone has their own form of expression. And style is—oftentimes I see style as making the difficult look easy. And my own belief in, you know, just absorbing what was around me when I was a kid—you know, we're humans. We sort of mimic and imitate what's around us. I haven't innovated anything really at all. I've just looked at what's around. And you take bits and pieces. First you take it from your parents, of course. And then as you get out in the world, it's like what's going on around you. And in San Diego, where I grew up—and I think this was the same in many other surf cities in not only the US but the world—in the 80s, the older surfers, 10 to 20 years older than you, were style-focused as opposed to this idea of ripping or tearing something apart and doing it with reckless abandon. That was something that started getting more popular as I was a kid. So I was sort of born into this era where one thing was kind of falling out of favor, and this other form of surfing was gaining popularity. And—sorry, that was kind of a muddled answer, but I think it's one of the most difficult subjects in surfing to discuss or to describe because it's so subjective. And it comes—the word style comes with a lot of different ideas to people, ranging from beauty to something that's very contrived and nonfunctional.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. I mean, the word "style" itself has—as you sort of addressed—a lot of meanings. Like, everyone has their own unique style, you could say, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are stylish. So when we think of stylish surfers, we do—we think of beauty and grace and flow. And I think it is related to that, and it's related to efficiency, right? I mean, Rob Machado comes to mind. I think he's sort of an incredibly stylish surfer, but he also fits in that modern category—category of radical. Yeah, he encompasses both. And I mean, world champ Joel Parkinson obviously fit the criteria of competition surfing but remained incredibly smooth and stylish.

Devon Howard
Yeah. Well, you know, I think depending on where you grew up and what culture you came from or grew up in, style could also just not be that important. You know, if surfing to you—or just to any individual—is about really pushing as hard as they can with maneuvers and being as radical as they can and, you know, tearing apart a wave—you know, like you think of the Brazilian Storm guys. They're—for years—have been, you know—they're well-deserved. They're incredible athletes. They are highly athletic, and it is explosive maneuvers. And they're acrobats in many ways. For some reason, as that game has gained popularity, some aspects of the presentation have sort of fallen to the wayside. Whereas in gymnastics, presentation and form is still really part of the whole thing. It was never really let go. Like, if you do a floor routine in gymnastics, or let's say dance or anything like that—they're doing really kind of athletic, powerful moves, but they also keep the form. And I don't know quite the exact reason, but that sort of started falling out of favor in surfing. Mostly because what drives our conversations oftentimes revolves around competition surfing. Like, competition surfing drives a lot of the media narratives. Let’s say—who are—like, where do we get our information from? It’s driven by the sell to whatever extent that is. Stab and their audience.

Devon Howard
Surfline, kind of, sort of, but they’re more focused on cameras and whatnot. And then most of the magazines have gone out of business. But only ten years ago, a lot of the stories were driven by the personalities and the folks that competed. And there was a mixed bag in there of surfers that had great style, like Joel Parkinson, who you mentioned. I would say Kelly Slater has a good style—it’s a different style, it's his own. And then on the opposite end of that would be like an Adriano de Souza or somebody like that, where he's clearly just incredibly talented, but sort of putting his surfing together in one seamless, fluid motion was not a focus of his. And so it’s been interesting to watch, and the broader conversations of the mainstream—how that’s sort of played out. Back to where I grew up—I grew up on the fringe of all that anyway. So I was riding longboards in the 80s and 90s—that was as fringe as it got. And in that world all through that time, style was still important. Even when folks were trying to emulate shortboard maneuvers on longboards, there was still an emphasis on style. Sorry, I’ll shut up. I don’t know where I’m going with that, but yeah.

Michael Frampton
So I’m just wondering—when you look at—I mean, I think that you mentioned the Brazilian Storm. I think Gabriel Medina is quite stylish. Not all the time, but probably actually more so when you see him freesurf. He sort of—he just seems to be more relaxed when he's not surfing in a competition. And I think that's maybe what separates the—I think that’s a big part of being stylish is you're very calm and you're relaxed. That doesn't necessarily mean you're going slower or that you're even putting less effort in. It's just—maybe you referenced gymnastics. I think a gymnast could do the same routine—they get the same height, the same amount of power—but if one of their runs, they were purposely trying to keep the presentation of themselves relaxed and calm, it would be more visually appealing. Sort of making it look easy.

Devon Howard
Yeah. That’s the—that’s the thing. Making the difficult look easy. Mhm. In the 60s or 50s or whatever, the boards weren't very maneuverable. So, um, clearly the market did—surfing was just people who were stylish and could kind of keep it together. Um, hang on one second. Um, are you hearing a beeping on your end? What? I’m getting messages. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Is that your phone?

Devon Howard
Yeah. I don't know how to turn off the iMessage on my, uh—oh, it's on the computer. I'm trying to see how to undo this. Is this on?

Michael Frampton
Your phone—a phone or your laptop or your iPad?

Devon Howard
It's on my laptop. Oh, sorry. You're going to have to edit this out. That's all right. I'm just getting, like, every one of them. Don't fuck me up. The client. Claudia, um, do you have any idea how to get rid of iMessage off here? Preferences? Services?

Michael Frampton
That's a good question. I don't—I don't have my, um, I don't have my laptop linked to my phone, so. Yeah.

Devon Howard
Don't do it. Preferences. Let's see.

Michael Frampton
I'd say it'd be under Notifications. Notifications and Focus—it's like a bell symbol.

Devon Howard
On, uh, on the computer itself or on the phone?

Michael Frampton
I'm looking on my laptop.

Devon Howard
Where did you find the notifications? In System Preferences?

Michael Frampton
Okay.

Devon Howard
System Preferences, Notifications. There they are. Look at that.

Michael Frampton
And top right, there's a—there's a button: Allow Notifications. So you can turn that off or on. I'd say that's it.

Devon Howard
Only five messages? There we go. Okay. I want to turn that off. Okay. Apologies for that. Okay. So, um. All right.

Michael Frampton
So where were we? Let me throw out some adjectives that I wrote down after thinking about style a little bit: efficient, graceful, functional, calm, focused, relaxed, grounded, present, fearless—or maybe, better put, courageous. Is there anything you would add to that or you think shouldn't be there?

Devon Howard
Uh, no. I just think it's more about a calm and a gracefulness. It's mostly what it is. And it's just a—it's just the form of your personal expression. I think a lot of the style—you'll see style of folks from a distance—and a lot of ways it matches up to their personality. Right? You'll see someone who's quite busy, a lot of—a lot of kinetic, sort of frantic motions. And—not always the case—but sometimes, like, okay, this person's a little over-caffeinated. In general, you know, they're really mellow, kind of quiet people have this very quiet. Always meet a really quiet surfer with their style, and they're really loud and obnoxious. There's exceptions to the rule, but if you think about it quickly, that's not often the case. And so, um, I think a lot of those adjectives actually work pretty well. Um, I don't—what did you say? Courageous?

Michael Frampton
Yeah.

Devon Howard
I don't really know that that applies to it, really. I don't think it's really much to do with courage other than—well, I was—

Michael Frampton
Thinking that. I was just wondering if that was a better word than fearless.

Devon Howard
Mhm.

Michael Frampton
Because if you—if you look—if you look scared, that's not very stylish, is it?

Devon Howard
No, no. It's very—you're tense. Style. And yeah, I've said to people—I don't do surf coaching—but if I've ever seen someone in the water and it looks like they're struggling, if it's appropriate or sort of convenient, like they're just sort of right there, I'll say, do you—do you mind if I offer some advice? It's usually well received. A lot of times I've said, I think you just relax a little bit. Your body's too tense. Looks bad, but it also screws up your ability to surf, because now it's affected the form. Like you're sort of hunched over and bracing for, like, some sort of impact, where you need to be more relaxed. The arms need to be relaxed. The shoulders should be relaxed. You should be able to sort of sink back into your knees and your hips and let those kind of bend and sort of sit into the board nicely. And so I think, um, what I—what I often think about style—there's always like there's two camps. There's the people that get it and—and style is usually—it's like, you know it when you see it. I said, how do you know that something's pornographic versus art or beauty? And a lot of times the answer is, well, you know when you see it. You know something is gross or smut as opposed to art.

Devon Howard
Like you go into an art gallery and there's naked—you know, images of a naked person. How is that not pornography? And it's like, well, you know when you see it. And it's like style. You sort of know it when you see it. And then you have, um, the other end of that, where people will feel style is just posing and looking cool. Like you're putting your hands in the air to look like Alex Knost or Miki Dora or Rob Machado—whoever. Insert the surfer. You're trying to mimic their hand placement. And sometimes the hand placement provides no real function or value to the ride, other than—it might feel good, I guess—but it's not making you surf better. Um, where I like to—I often will—I will argue or believe that yes, there are people that pose, and that does exist. I grant you that. But good style also brings about really good form. Or I would look at it a different way: really good form pulls along the style into it. So if you have good form—and whether that's in a barrel or a cutback—if your body is doing sort of the right things to make a beautiful, seamless ride easier.

Devon Howard
Um, along with that usually comes a pretty good style. If you don't have a good style, a lot of times the form is really working against your surfing. So, for example, you go to do a cutback and your arm is up and back—frontside—and let's say I'm turning this way, frontside cutback. Well, if my back arm is in the air waving behind me, I'm really struggling to get my body around, and I'm actually having to work really hard for it. Could potentially even injure yourself. So that really hinders your surfing. But if I brought the arm in and dropped it down and then had the arm kind of point toward where I want to go, the rest of my body goes. And it's actually quite easy to do the turn, and consequently, it looks much better. Doesn't look so awkward. Yeah. And this could be said of your front arm. I've seen folks do cutbacks with—I don't know why this happens—but sometimes their front arm is sort of flailing and going behind them over here, or they're extending and reaching too far. So when there's this nice balance of the front and the back hand on the frontside cutback—it looks cool. Hey, that's great. If someone took a photo, yeah, you'd probably put it on the wall.

Devon Howard
Looks pretty good. Looks like Michael Peterson or somebody or whatever. Joel Parkinson. Ethan Ewing would be a really good contemporary example, I guess. And—but when it's all sort of like the form is there, it looks good, but now you're surfing better and the turn is faster and more complete. And also, when you have nice form, you get the board in trim. What I mean by that is—when the board's in trim, it's sort of—if you know anything about sailing—when everything's in alignment with the bow and the sail and the boat is really hitting its top speed, there's nothing really hindering or dragging or fighting against that top trim speed. In surfing, you want to get to the top trim speed, because when you have speed, it's easier to complete maneuvers. It's less work. You go into the maneuvers with speed—you can do a lot better. It's like snowboarding. If anyone's snowboarded, you know that the first few days you're learning, the instructor will say, you just need to get going faster. And you're like, what? No, that's scary. I don't want to go faster. But—well, you're going so slow that that's why you're tumbling and you're catching an edge and you're getting stuck on the hill. Go faster. And then you see this light bulb moment with people. Like, my gosh, well, I should have just been going faster all along.

Devon Howard
It's the same with surfing. You'll see people struggling to get trim speed because their form is so terrible. They're not understanding that the board is not even in trim. The board then noses out, or they're waving their arms. They're—they're shaking their body like this, and they're trying to wiggle and do stuff. And you're watching the board underneath, and the board is just like on a gimbal, just like not getting any trim. It's just stop and go, stop and go. So it's this utter fail, where if the person just relaxed a little bit, relaxed their arms, don't try to flop the body around and just get the idea of even going straight—which is hard to do on a shortboard, clearly—if you're a beginner, you probably shouldn't even be on the floor. It's just going to be a struggle. Yet a board that's medium, like a mid-length or something, or a longboard, where you can kind of stand there and glide and trim, and then you can kind of get that form where your body's relaxed. And, um, so a lot of times, good style, I believe, just comes with the right form, if that makes sense.

Michael Frampton
I totally agree. Yeah. And that's what I think—that's what a surf coach's job is. And then it's—once the person becomes—at first, the new, better form will feel strange and maybe even abnormal and uncomfortable. And it's only once that form becomes ingrained and you become comfortable with it, then it looks stylish. So it's—it's maybe it's a precursor to style, is good form.

Devon Howard
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Um, another thing that I've thought about a lot in the last several years about style is—it sort of belies the technique or the difficulty of the maneuver. I think if it looks like someone's trying really super hard to do, like, a—let's say, a crazy air or just like the craziest turn where, like, they blow—they, like, blow the tail out and spin the board around and like, oh, whoa, that was insane, that was so difficult. But if you see somebody do a top-speed cutback and they don't lose or drift the fins, and they just go at Mach 20 and just—bam—come up fluid and seamless, you might say, man, that was really smooth. That was really stylish. But you don't often think that that was also really difficult. It's interesting. And I'm not trying to get people to cheer more for the stylist, I guess, but I think it's worth sort of acknowledging that Mikey February or Torren Martyn and some of those things they're doing—we're drawn to them because they're beautiful, which is undeniable. But it's also interesting to think that these are the highest level people at the very upper echelon, at the top peak of ability, of sphere, fame. And there's something to be learned there—to not just only acknowledge and only see the style, which is great.

Devon Howard
I love that. I'll watch that stuff all day long, but to, like, hit the rewind button and look at what they're doing and how on-rail that board is and how difficult it is to hold the line and not lose it. Because a lot of times, especially in performance shortboarding, it's incredible what the surfers do. It's like it's a controlled failure of the surfing. So a lot of times when the fins release, it's a—and I know this because I put a lot of thought into fins and foils and whatnot—a lot of the best high-performance surfing maneuvers are a controlled failure. Mhm. They're pushing the limits of the board, and a lot of times the fins or the equipment can't really handle what these surfers are giving it. It's really interesting. Look at someone laying into a turn, and their butt is sliding across the wave, and the fins and the board and everything's sliding. And then look at, like, a Mick Fanning or somebody who can hold that—or Ethan Ewing—and hold it all the way through. That's gnarly. That is just like peak form. But you're like, man, that was so smooth, but you're not ever saying, that was so difficult to do. And I don't know what the point is I'm making.

Devon Howard
I guess it comes back to, uh, like the kind of surfing I like to do. It could be easily scoffed at as pretty easy, like, hey, mid-length surfing, you're just going straight. It's not really difficult. But I don't know, man. At the highest levels—I think what Torren Martyn does, I think what February does if he's on a mid-length or other—you know, there's other surfers out there doing it, and I kind of watch—wow, look at that. Five-sixths of the rail of that board is buried. And that's what I do myself. And that's—to me—that's the most thrilling thing, is to bury that rail. How far can I push this thing before it fails me? That's just really, really thrilling. You're just on the edge of disaster. You know, when you go on one of those seven-foot boards, go to the bottom, slink, you know, and coil up into the board and push it as hard as you can. Alex Knost does this really good as well. I can go on forever. People do a great job of this, and they push all that board through. And then if you don't watch it—you know, if you're not too far forward or too much weight on your front foot—you'll slingshot up the face. It's this fast, free feeling, like a flying feeling that's highly addictive.

Devon Howard
It's something that you just keep—my people that are into those types of boards, they just keep chasing it. And then down the line, do the same thing again. Now I'm going to bury a whole lot of rail on the cutback. How hard can I push it? And when I get down to the bottom of the wave, can I just keep going right back to the whitewater? Oh yes, I can. Damn. Just keep going. Sometimes it doesn't work out. And if you blow that, you're doing the splits on the board. Now you've got a torn MCL. But you're going full throttle. And on that type of equipment, the form is important so that you don't botch it, because you really could get injured on some of these things. Probably someone who hears this is going to laugh and think, this is a joke, like you're being really hyperbolic, bro. Come on. It's just a mid-length and you're over water. Yeah, when you're pushing it really hard, it's thrilling and it's exciting, and it is difficult to do. And it's—I think it's really appealing to a lot of people. And then they, you know, they go and try and do it and say, man, I wish I could surf like Rob Machado on this thing. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Well, all the surfers—

Devon Howard
Take ten years.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, if not longer. I think all the surfers you mention and the way you talk about their surfing is—they're—can they stay connected? You know, that as they're going through the turns and in between turns, there's no radical gain or loss of speed. Right? So where they do the cutback isn't just a change of direction. It's in sync with that part of the wave, so they stay connected to the power source. So there's a certain—it's a radical maneuver, but the speed doesn't waver too much, whereas some surfers might jump up to the top and bust the fins, and they might slow right down and then fall back down into the wave and go again. And it looks good in photos and maybe gets judged well in a competition, but it's not necessarily—they're not as connected to the wave as other surfers.

Devon Howard
Yeah. And again, that's debatable. I'm sure there's other people who will feel opposite of that, and that's great. You know, surfing's subjective. Yeah. And, you know—and just to bring it back a little bit to competition if that's okay—I know lots of people don't care about surf competition, but it is where a lot of the best surfing's happening. It's where the high bar is, a lot of times. And in the 60s and 70s, style was just sort of—it wasn't like there was a style box that was ticked. It was sort of like this nice little cozy little wrapping around the surfing that was just a given, you know, so it didn't really need to be discussed. And then in the 80s—and probably really the late 70s—when the twin fin was really coming on with MR pushing that and Shaun Tomson and other people chasing him, they were packing in as many maneuvers as they possibly could into a ride to take away more points. And this isn't my own thought or original idea—I've read these things elsewhere—and I agree with this take, which is somewhere along the way, the beauty just sort of eroded because the focus is now—we're getting really fixated on number of maneuvers and this real technical aspect of the difficulty of the maneuvers.

Devon Howard
And surfing is already highly subjective. And you have this even more subjective thing—style. And some of them—maybe, correct me if I'm wrong—maybe there was a style element at some point. I'm not aware of it. Maybe there was. And so, anyways, the 80s kind of moves on, and there were clearly lots of stylish surfers. I mean, I grew up like many people my age—I'm 50—so I worshipped Tom Curren, and I loved Tom Carroll and a bunch of folks. There was lots of style, but there were also some people with some really hideous style, like Gary Elkerton and Damien Hardman and all these people. Nothing against them, man. I think they're all incredible surfers, but there were some hideous styles, and they crushed it in contests because they were just animals—like, lacerating, tearing it up. And because the broader culture is being driven by whatever media is being consumed, and the media at the time was really sort of swiveling and craning and watching what's going on in competition, because that's where the money's being plugged in. So those brands are like, hey, we validate this thing we're doing, which is competition surfing. And it just boiled down to, what do you got to do to win this thing? And if making it look beautiful was not ever important, why would you spend time doing that? Tom Curren couldn't help himself.

Devon Howard
He was stylish no matter what. But lots—lots of other surfers weren't, and they did very well. And so as the decade or two ensues, just the sort of broad mainstream viewpoint was that style just wasn't important. However, the people that were in the sort of the underground—your locals, people that sort of stuck to the fringe—and even the people that shortboarded as well obviously still kind of kept style alive. And the reason style always stayed alive is because the idea that human beings are drawn and attracted to beauty is as old as time, I think. I mean, who knows when that began. I had a really nice chat with David Scales on Surf Splendor, and we spoke about this there. So if you want to hear more about this, go check that out. I think it was a nice conversation. But I'll sort of reiterate some of the points. There was—I read an article by Scott Hewlett in The Surfer's Journal, and he wrote quite a bit about style. And he illustrated a point that I'd never considered. And he was sort of talking about this Greek artist—it was like 500 BC. I'm like, where is this thing going? Why are we talking about bronze sculptures? But he made a really brilliant point, which is—okay, why does style matter? Why do we keep talking about it? It's because beauty endures.

Devon Howard
It is a common theme in human nature. Now, in recent times, I'd say beauty is being abandoned. If you look at modern architecture in just about any town, everything looks like shit. So I don't know what's going on there. We used to make beautiful buildings, and now we're stopping doing it. We can't control that. But in surfing, we keep getting drawn back to this idea of beauty. Despite all those things that happened that we just talked about in the 80s and 90s—competition surfing and getting derailed—the broad culture still has always known instinctively that this is something we should never stop cherishing. We should never stop celebrating. And I think it's backed up by—if you go to any Torren Martyn video, go down to this thing below the screen that says "views." A lot of Torren Martyn videos have like a million plus views. Go over to Gabriel Medina or anyone—and I'm not picking on these people, just pick anybody—I’ll bet you right now that Torren is beating a lot of those surfers two or three or four to one in terms of views. Now, you could argue that, well, there's a lot more Gabriel Medina-type surfers, and there's not that many Torren Martyns. I'll give you that.

Devon Howard
But I think it's really because we are drawn to beauty. And so back to that Surfer’s Journal article, he said, imagine taking those Greek statues and putting a surfboard underneath them. And when I was done reading the article, I went and I googled "500 BC Greek statue," and I forget the artist's name—it’s a Greek name—and I was instantly like, huh, look at that. You just put a surfboard under these statues. And some of the form and posture was a little bit silly, but a lot of it was pretty spot on. And then you go right over to Gerry Lopez, or you go to Mikey February or somebody else, and you can see that there's a similarity to this idea of beauty. And then you go take it steps further—take it to any type of traditional dance. Have you ever seen ugly, poor form at any dance scenario where there’s, like, serious people—whether it’s ballroom or it’s swing or it’s foxtrot or it’s tango or it’s salsa—it’s just incredibly beautiful. And it’s this expression. The music is coming in, you’re viewing and watching and feeling the music—there’s that input—and the output is what these people are feeling. And so our output in surfing is that form and that expression. Bullfighters. Same thing.

Michael Frampton
Mhm.

Devon Howard
Now the bullfighters have a little more of a pose at the end. The bull’s coming in and the bull goes through the cape, and they kind of hold it and they sort of—it’s almost like a taunting of the bull, like, you didn’t kill me, and look how calm I am right here. And a lot of the surfers in the 50s and 60s—they really admired the bullfighters. There’s a great shot of Joey Cabell in Peru in the 60s. Guy’s never bullfought before, and he’s down there, and there’s pictures of him in the bull ring with a Hawaiian print shirt on and doing the whole full "Ole!" you know. And so this idea of style really is always going to matter and always be important to us, so long as we don’t ever abandon this attraction of ours to beauty. You know, we’re attracted to beautiful people. Clearly, that’s a given, right? But we’re really drawn to beautiful things—art, architecture, a wonderful garden, an unmolested landscape. And so I don’t think people really care to give too much thought about style.

Devon Howard
I think it's just sort of like I said—you know it when you see it. Does it really need to be talked about? But I think in the context of a podcast like yours, where people are trying to improve their surfing, having a real understanding that this isn't just for show—style isn't just to look cool. It's not like putting on a cool outfit to look cool. It's a real purpose-driven thing. Certain articles of clothing look great, but they also have a purpose. Maybe it has SPF in it. Maybe it's built for a particular activity to make it more comfortable. For us, as I was saying in the very beginning, the form—the style sort of follows the form. And if you really think about your form and you're relaxed and you're sort of paying attention to the things that you talk about on your podcast or where people get their information—there’s lots of different YouTube things, obviously—you too could have nice style if you so desire.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I 100% agree. Surfing is, first and foremost, an art form. Mhm. It's only within competition that it becomes a sport. And then, yes, sometimes we sacrifice a bit of style for progression, perhaps, as well as what's happening in windsurfing. It's a sport. I still think the best of the best—the best of the best can combine. Like John John—he's number one at the moment for a reason. Not just because he's progressive, but because he would do a progressive turn with calm style like no one else. Yeah. So I still have faith. I think there'll be the odd slip-up—you know, Toledo's frantic aerial maneuver that goes higher than everyone else—the judges kind of—they can't not score it, you know? So, you know, there'll be blips in the system—glitches in the matrix, per se—until the judges really start to consider style and make that a point, which hopefully, maybe one day, they will. I think it would make—I would make surfing more watchable.

Devon Howard
Well, they have done so in longboard surfing. Yes. Longboard surfing has a much smaller audience, obviously. But as I believe you and I talked about in the past—I think we did—I was at the WSL for a few years, and I worked on the longboard tour. And built into the criteria is the word "style." Also two other words—flow and grace. Style, flow, grace is in the criteria. And it's hard—a little difficult—to train the judges on it, you know? It's highly subjective. It's something—we could sit here for an hour breaking down style, flow, grace—it will still feel like we barely scratched the surface. Because it is highly subjective, just like art is, just like music is, just like food is, just like what kind of waves I like. Ah, it's just like that. It really can be difficult to put your finger on it. But the way we did the training to help these judges, if anyone cares to know this stuff, is have them really focus on somebody making something really difficult look easy. But also, at the same time, dealt with sight of the positioning of the wave or the difficulty of the maneuver. Because to the untrained eye, you could see someone doing a nose ride, and maybe they're doing something really—what you may think is beautiful—on the nose.

Devon Howard
Maybe their arms are held a certain way, it just looks kind of cool. But if you pay close attention, they're like ten feet in front of the pocket. And you're like, that’s not that hard to do. Mhm. So what helps is—in the other part of the criteria—is the degree of difficulty. That is part of it. So you're looking at the style, flow, and grace, but you're applying it to—are these surfers in the pocket? Is the surfer using their rail, or are they lifting the board out of the water? Because to lift the longboard out of the water and turn it is far easier than engaging the rail in the water and pushing it through a turn. That's much more difficult. And so it has been applied in longboard surfing. Let's see if we can—if anyone cares—we could try to do a campaign to get the shortboard tour to break more.

Michael Frampton
I'm with you. I'm with you. Ultimately, I do think it shines through, and the cream always rises to the top. But it would be nice if it was literally in the criteria, and it was considered by each surfer to be a worthy consideration. Coming back to form—let me—I'm going to share my screen with you. Let me—hopefully this works. Oh, shit. Did that work? Can you see my screen?

Devon Howard
I think so. Let me move my notes here a little bit. Oops. Too many things around here. I'm terrible at computer stuff. One second. So—where it is now? Okay, I can see it now.

Michael Frampton
So there's an example of a—you know, if that was placed on the nose of a longboard, it’d be quite cool.

Devon Howard
Yeah, it's pretty close.

Michael Frampton
But then also—so here's—you see on the left there is the way that a baby learns to stand. Now, because the infant is so weak, there’s only one way that they can learn to roll over and learn to stand up and hold themselves. Because their muscles are so weak, their bones have to be placed so accurately in order for them to be able to stand and move. And that’s how we learn—because of our weakness and our slow progression into strength—we learn the most efficient way possible. Now it’s the athletes that maintain that neurological efficiency that end up with the best form naturally—i.e. the way Kelly Slater’s standing there in those barrels. Not only is he standing in a very similar way to the infant there, he's also very calm and relaxed in that position.

Devon Howard
Yeah, I would definitely not be that calm in that—those waves.

Michael Frampton
Exactly. So it does come back to form. And it’s also—when an athlete is standing with their joints—in DNS, we call it "joint centration"—and that the bones are stacked on top of each other in a very efficient way, it just looks right. Not only does it look right, the way the forces are spread throughout the body—it doesn’t feel hard. Anyone who’s ever tried—if anyone has ever tried to skate a vert ramp, for example—a halfpipe—it feels like, oh man, my legs aren’t strong enough. How do people—and then you watch a 12-year-old just go up and down. They’re not doing it because their legs are stronger than yours. They’re not even doing it because they’re stronger relative to their body weight. They’re doing it because they’re stacking themselves. Their bones and their joints are centered properly, and the force is being transferred throughout their entire body through the center of the bone and into the skateboard. Whereas someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing—they’re trying to muscle their way through it. Not only does it feel terrible, it looks terrible. Yeah. So I agree with that. Yeah. So it does come back to efficiency. And you said, good style is that you know it when you see it. My question to you is—do you know it when you feel it?

Devon Howard
Yes. I believe so. I know—I’ve even had moments where I just didn’t feel like I was in the right form. It just didn’t—the turn didn’t feel good or the particular movement—maybe it’s a nose ride or something—didn’t feel great. And if you get a chance to be lucky enough to come across a video or a photo of that moment, you’re like, mm, yeah, that actually backs it up. It looks a bit awkward. It looks a bit off. So—and you definitely can feel good style because you like it—it’s all tethered to itself. It feels good. It looks good. And it sort of carries on the ride. It's like when you get off the very beginning of the ride and the first bottom turn is successful and your feet are in the right place—it really sets up the rest of the ride. If you botch that—let's say you screw it up getting to your feet or off the bottom—then you screw up the pace of the wave. So, yeah, I’ve had times where my feet were too far forward or back or whatever, or I hit a chop and my arms sort of waved a little bit, and then I got out of that rhythm. And that didn’t—that definitely didn’t feel good. And it certainly didn’t—because it looked like I was rolling up the windows as opposed to my arms being sort of down and going the direction that I want to be headed.

Devon Howard
A lot of times the front and the back hand oftentimes are going the direction you want to go. I find that to be very helpful, and that feels good to me because I feel really centered—or you’d say "stacked." I never thought of it that way, but—so yeah, I would agree. I would say you definitely—you definitely feel it. My own belief is—I don’t do anything in the style that I feel is what’s called contrived, where I’m trying to present a form of some kind that has a certain look. The form I have is really based off of function. And that’s because I watched the generation two ahead of me at waves like Windansea and Cardiff Reef. And I watched the elders, and I really watched closely what they were doing. How they were sinking down into the board. And I noticed that their hands—their fingers were never apart. Their hand gestures were sort of always in the direction of where their board and body was heading. It was like this stacking or centering. They kind of hunkered down, but they never looked stiff or scared or afraid of anything or timid. It was a very confident—almost like a martial artist, like a kung fu person or something—that has confidence in the form of that particular move.

Devon Howard
The really good surfers—the real standout surfers—I identified that pretty young, and I said, I want—I need to learn how to do that. So it was never a contrived thing like, I need to look good and look cool. I just knew that that was good surfing. And as a consequence of going through that, it also felt really good. It was like a good golf swing. I don’t golf at all, but I have friends who do, and I can understand how much work they put into that golf swing. And when they do that, clearly it looks good from a distance because they hit the ball and it goes right where they want it to go. So that’s pretty awesome. But they’ll tell you it feels good. Or baseball—if you’ve ever played baseball, you know the feeling of a home run. There’s a sound of the bat and the feel through the bat into your hands, and you feel it—the follow-through of the swing. You’re like, that ball is out of here. It’s pretty cool. Mhm. A reward to—not that it’s work—but there’s sort of like this payoff and a reward to the dedication that it took to learn that art form. Mhm.

Michael Frampton
But it always comes back to the feeling.

Devon Howard
It really does. Yeah. I didn’t—I haven’t put too much thought into the feeling piece of it. But yeah. You know, it’s disgusting and really dumb and shallow, but I’ve had moments where the ride didn’t feel good, and I didn’t even finish the wave. I was so not into the feeling—I just kicked out. I was like, I botched this thing so bad that someone else just needs to finish it. I just—I just kick out and I go back up to the top and kind of regroup and go, what just went wrong there? And then, you know, like, surfing—everyone surfs for different reasons too. Like, for some people, surfing is a couple times a month. It’s an escape for them. They don’t care if they surf well. That’s not what they’re there for.

Michael Frampton
Like they’re probably not listening to this, though.

Devon Howard
Probably not. And I’ve had people say, man, you look so serious when you’re surfing. I’m like, I’m pretty serious about it. Like, to me—it’s so strange—it’s serious fun. And as I’ve gotten older, I haven’t lost interest in it. It’s like a hunt to me. It’s really weird. And I don’t—I don’t know if it’s just some human thing of, like, the game and the chess moves and everything involved with observing patterns. I’ve observed patterns for decades, and now I see the patterns, and the benefit for me is I know which wave to pick. I know where to be. And by knowing that, I’ve set up the ride and therefore I’ve sort of predetermined this feeling that I’m after, which is—as I said—it’s highly addicting. Surfing—you’re never satiated. Why is that? You always want another one. You always want more. And—but all through this process—the hunt, the enjoying, understanding the patterns, the chasing, the moment, the feeling—there’s a tremendous sense of—there’s like a reward when all the elements have come together and you apply everything you’ve learned. It’s a really cool feeling. I think you could say that about a lot of things in life, whatever your craft is.

Devon Howard
And for me, surfing isn't just like some waste-of-time thing. Like, that's part of it. That's a bonus to me, like, hey, I'm not doing chores or I'm not at work. That's fantastic. I will take that. But it's also like a craft. It's a way I express myself. Some people do that through building things out of wood in their garage or a number of other things. So the style piece of it—it's just sort of come along with it. It never was like, I'm going to really think about this super duper hard. And you just—you learn through time that the style and the form, they sort of, like, are tied together, you know? And you kind of look at it this way, and then you go back and look at it the other way, and they really come together nicely. And if you fight them, you're not going to surf as well. If you're not surfing as well, you're not going to feel it as right. You won't feel that thing we just talked about. And then consequently—not that that many people care—but your surfing is going to be kind of ugly.

Michael Frampton
Thing is.

Michael Frampton
It'll—

Michael Frampton
Because when you are—when you're connected and you're efficient—it feels better. Simple as that. It feels better. If you close your eyes and just imagine, like, an image or a video section of someone who epitomizes style—are they—what are they feeling in the moment? Are they worried about what they look like? No. Are they scared? No. Are they putting in a ton of effort?

Devon Howard
I would say no.

Michael Frampton
It's in the—

Devon Howard
Moment. Yeah. There's probably a small number of people who—it's contrived. Like, you could go to Byron Bay—sorry, sorry, Byron Bay, I’m picking on you right now. You could go to Malibu. Pick your spot. Maybe Montego Bay. I don't know. Way inside there, there's going to be places where there are folks that—for whatever reason—this—well, like, who cares? There's no laws or rules. Like, I'm not mad about this. It's just—they're just observations. That's it. They're really controlled. It's just so contrived. They're sort of putting the form—or, I'm sorry, let me back up—they're putting the presentation ahead of the form. You know, they're worried about all the bells and whistles and the dressing, but at the core of all the ingredients going into making this beautiful thing, they've got it all wrong, you know?

Michael Frampton
You can always smell that though, I think.

Devon Howard
And it's a missed opportunity for them. Does it change my life or your life or anybody listening? You do you, man. Like, I'm very libertarian in that way. I don't really care. But we're on a podcast called Surf Mastery, so we're nerding out. And if you're here to get better, don't get caught up in the presentation. Get caught up in the form. The presentation is going to come along. And yeah, it's just like this beautiful byproduct. You shouldn't have to try to have good style. You should try to be good at surfing. And then once you have that confidence—you know, if you see a photo or catch a Surfline rewind, if you can see that far and you happen to notice that your hands are bent at the wrist and going in instead of out, or you happen to notice that your fingers are wide apart, you could pull them in and it looks better—but it also centers and stacks you. You start feeling more stacked over your board. And once you start doing that, your style just starts improving. And it's interesting that tube riding—this is what we talked about with David the other day, I think. Or maybe we didn’t—I can't remember—but someone I was talking to about it, it's interesting that almost all good tube riding has good style. Most of it. You rarely see someone with really hideous style getting a sick barrel.

Michael Frampton
So yeah, because the wave will hit them in the butt with their poor stance. They just don’t—they don’t fit, and they’re ugly.

Devon Howard
Yeah, I think it's true. There’s a lesson there that can be applied to other maneuvers. But it’s not always true that good tube style now equates to this beautiful style on the face. You’ll see when it doesn’t fall apart. Why is that? I don’t know exactly. Maybe the—I think one thing that could help with style from a technique standpoint is—don’t rush your surfing. I’ve noticed, like, folks that—remember we were talking earlier about breaking trim and seeing people that are trying to wiggle—they’re sort of swaying. A lot of times, it’s the upper body that’s swaying when that’s not really helping them in any way. It’s not benefiting the ride. It’s causing the board to lift out of the water in side-to-side motion, typically. And now you’re breaking the trim. Now in a shortboard, a shortboard needs to be side to side, but it’s also got to be pushed so that it’s building momentum in a forward fashion. The people that are not very good are kind of not going anywhere because they don’t understand that. They’re just sort of wiggling their arms and breaking the trim.

Devon Howard
And I think if you just—yeah, just think about being a little bit more quiet. And being a little bit more quiet means you’re not in a big hurry. Like, if you're not at a level where you need to try to get eight maneuvers in the wave—don’t do it. Take your time and get two really nice maneuvers, and those will feel really good. Be patient off the bottom. When you—let's start from the beginning—you go and you paddle in, you go to do a bottom turn—just be there in that moment with that bottom turn. Don’t be thinking about the four moves you want to do down the line. Because now it becomes this rush. You’re hurrying up the surfing, and now you’re kind of screwing up the pace of the ride. You’re screwing up the pace of the wave. And when you do that, now you’re out of sync. When you’re out of sync, it doesn’t feel or look good. So I think the best advice to—how do I get good style?—start with the form and don’t rush your surfing.

Devon Howard
Don’t try to contrive it. Don’t try to—like, I’m going to have—make sure my hands are up here and I’ll go like this and I’m looking backwards and going, okay, that’s cool. You do you. But you know, that’s not helping you surf better.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, yeah. You can be quick without being rushed.

Devon Howard
Exactly.

Michael Frampton
Like a drummer that’s drumming at 160 beats per minute—if they’re ahead of the beat slightly, it sounds rushed. But if they’re on the beat, it’s in time. It’s rhythm. And they’re nice and relaxed. They’re still fast—they’re just not rushed, utterly. And it’s interesting you mentioned, like, the hands curled in like this. If your hands are curled in like this, you will feel scared. Your physiology affects your emotions. That’s a scared posture. That’s a protective posture. So if you forcefully open up your hands—like Tony Robbins says—stand up tall and straight and relaxed, you will feel better. If you force yourself to smile, you will feel better inside. So I think that, you know, a bit of video analysis and analyzing your own style can actually—and changing it—can actually make surfing feel better as well. But I love those tips you just said, and it was a good summary and it's a great place to end. Devon, thank you so much.

Devon Howard
All right. I hope we made some sense there. It's fun to talk about it, because I've felt this stuff for a long time, but I don’t really ever talk about it. And it’s only just in recent times. And I gotta thank Scott Hewlett from The Surfer's Journal for getting the gears going in my mind of how to think about this stuff. It's fun to share it, so I hope people get some value out of this conversation.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Oh, definitely. Definitely. I mean, if you come up with more thoughts on it, let me know. We'll get you back on and we'll expand, because it’s an important topic.

Devon Howard
Well, we’re in the middle of some fin placement on a mid-length, so I gotta get back down there. I also got this dust down here.

Michael Frampton
All right. Thanks, Devon. I’ll let you—right—you get back to it.

Devon Howard
All right. Thank you, Michael. See you.

The Hidden Techniques to Perfect Your Surfing Style with Devon Howard

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.