Podcast - SURF MASTERY

Are you truly reading the wave, or just watching water move? Discover how paying attention to the ocean’s smallest details could completely transform your surfing.

If you’ve ever felt stuck in your surf progression, unsure why better technique isn’t getting better results, this episode is your wake-up call. It’s not just about turning sharper or paddling harder, it’s about changing how you see the ocean. Whether you’re an intermediate surfer or decades in, understanding how to focus and read the wave can be the game-changer you’ve been missing.

• Learn how world-class surfers like Tom Carroll gain a massive edge by spotting secondary swells, backwashes, and subtle refractions that most surfers miss.

• Discover why your technique won’t matter if you can’t focus and how mindfulness and meditation off the board can level up your performance on it.

• Shift your entire relationship with surfing by embracing a personal surfing philosophy rooted in joy, longevity, and self-defined progression - not surf industry hype.

Press play to learn how changing your mindset and mastering wave reading can unlock deeper flow, better waves, and more fulfilling sessions in any surf condition.

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Michael Frampton: [00:00:00] What helped my surfing the most was looking for the details in the wave because I think it's so easy to get lost while you're surfing. A lot of the time you spend either paddling or just sitting there waiting. If you don't have the ability to read the wave properly, technique's not gonna help you.

That is the hardest part of surfing, knowing where to go. 99% of your time surfing. Is not spent surfing. It's paddling around and looking for waves and sitting there staring at the ocean. Welcome back to the Surf Mastery Podcast, education and Inspiration for Better Surfing. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and that was a quote from when I was interviewed for the surf.

Basis podcast. A podcast very similar to this one. I interviewed Van who hosts and produces the podcast, uh, back in episode 1, 2, 3, and he interviewed me for his show. So today I am releasing that conversation, which originally appeared. On the Surf basis podcast.

Van Vu: Alright, welcome to the Basis Surf [00:01:00] podcast.

Very excited because today we got Michael Frampton of the Surf Mastery Podcast. He is one of the OGs in this space. I think you've interviewed over 120 guests at this point. You were one of the original inspirations when I started my podcast as well. 'cause there's just a, a wealth of knowledge in your podcast and in you, yourself as a coach.

Um, and I know you have. Courses as well. But, uh, very excited to get into it, try to extract all the little nuggets that you've picked up over talking to all these people and yeah, so thanks for joining. Thank you so much, fan. It's, it's an honor. Cool. Well, why don't we just dive straight in. I mean, you know, there's a million angles that we could take from this, but I, I think where the place I want to start is, you know, you've interviewed over 120 guests at this point.

What have been kind of the best nuggets, best pieces of wisdom, best pieces of advice that you've, you've been able to get over all these interviews

Michael Frampton: at this point? Yeah. Straight into it. Okay. The thing, what helped my surfing the most was I immediately think [00:02:00] of Tom Carroll. I was lucky enough to be. When I started the podcast, I was actually training Tom Carroll as a personal trainer in the gym, and he was the second guest, number two.

And one of the things he was talking about in that original interview was looking for the details in the wave, and that stuck with me back then back in 2015, as something that I'm constantly trying to improve on is looking for the details and the wave and what Tom meant by that. What I'm still learning is when you're looking at the wave, most people think that there's a wave coming in or there's a, you know, there's a, a one meter swell at 15 seconds and that when that wave hits the beach or the point and it breaks along, that's what we surf.

Yes, that's the main wave. But there back washes, there are secondary and tertiary swells. There's wind chop. There's refractions coming off headlands, even [00:03:00] from miles away, that interact with that main wave. And when we start to see, when we look for, and we start to see those smaller details in the waves, then that's what allows, I mean, surf what and what, um, what fascinated me the most was Tom would've been.

This is, you know, 10 years ago, so I was what, 34? And Tom, Tom would've been like 52 probably. And we went surfing and he's on a smaller surfboard than me, just on these probably waist high waves. At a soft beach break. I was struggling to paddle into the waves. I couldn't even catch these waves, and he's doing full roundhouse cutbacks, just going a hundred miles an hour.

I just couldn't work it out. Like, how are you doing that? Mm-hmm. Obviously, he's a pro and he's been doing it a long time, but. We got to break it down and it was because he's looking for the [00:04:00] details.

Van Vu: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: He, he's looking at how the, that wind chop, that's where I'm gonna put the rail on my surfboard, right inside that wind chop or that refracted wave.

And I'm gonna choose the wave that's meeting. The main swell and kind of wedging up a little bit. That's where I'm gonna chip in and paddle into the wave in the first place. And I wasn't even aware that that's what was going on in surfing until he, he pointed that out. So that was definitely a, a huge nugget and something that I'm always looking for as those real, those just minor little details.

Sometimes when the, at, uh, when the sun's low on the horizon, it's really easy to see. But when the sun's straight up in the sky and the water's murky, it's so hard to see the multiple swells and the wind chops and the water, et cetera. Also, just the way the water moves, like especially in the, some of the beaches in Australia at the time, you get little, they call it a rip bowl, where there's a rip running sort of alongside the, the, the beach break.

The [00:05:00] beach break, and then as the wave's coming in, there's also water drawing. Underneath the wave two. So your board speed is actually faster than the wave's actually going. It's almost acting like a, a wave moving towards the beach as well as a standing wave. So looking for the waves that are doing that more in the set.

So the first wave of the set at a rip bowl is gonna, that's, that's gonna be more powerful 'cause there's actually more water drawing back out from the previous set. There's so many of those little details in surfing. We just don't see as beginners and even as intermediates. Gosh, even, you know, I, I coach a lot of surfers that just have never even thought they've been surfing for 20 years and never even thought or realized it and what.

Part of the reason Tom learned that is because he grew up in a surfing rich culture where his dad surfed and his uncle surfed and his best mates, they all surfed. So they were constantly talking about all this stuff and analyzing each other and surfing different waves. [00:06:00] So, as. Me, I didn't start surfing until I was 17 and I was completely self-taught and we went, when we went to the beach, there was no one else there, there was no one to learn from.

All I had was the magazines, which was all, you know, glorified, glorified performance surfing. So that that little nugget, looking for the details in the wave, that that helped a lot. And I often use the analogy of imagine a mountain biker cruising down a. Down a hill, down a track that's say a meter wide, well, an amateur mountain biker just trying to get down the track using that meter wide track.

But the pro mountain biker is looking, where is the center of my tire going on that track? And what's the fastest way? With the least amount of resistance, the track within the track. So that's what I'm constantly trying to look for when I'm surfing. It does another thing, which I think is really important, which segues into the second point, which is it, it allows you to be more present.

So I remember interviewing [00:07:00] Matt Griggs, who was Mick Fanning's original trainer, uh, with the Rip Curl team, and he was big on meditation. Uh, the mindfulness meditation was kely meditation side of things, and then also interviewing Dr. Michael Vet. Who's the sports psychologist for the Red Bull team, who's also big on the meditation side of things and focusing, focusing on one thing, like your life depends on, it is a, a, not quite the word for word, but it's a quote from him.

So. When you start looking for the details in the wave, it helps you to do that as well. 'cause I think it's so easy to get lost while while you're surfing. You, a lot of the time you spend either paddling or just sitting there waiting, so you kind of get lost and then all of a sudden a wave comes and you're expected to just all of a sudden focus in on all this craziness that's going on.

So learning to to, to meditate outside of the water helped a actually helped a lot. 'cause that's just a [00:08:00] refocusing every time you see your mind sort of drifting off, you, you refocus the ability to, to do that. And then when you're in the ocean, you're focusing on the details in the water. And I think it's, you know, 'cause when you're sitting there waiting for a set to come, another big thing, I remember interviewing Nathan Hedge.

I don't think he talked about it specifically, but I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge. It on the, on the Sydney beaches. And we'd be sitting, everyone would be sitting there waiting for a set, and then all of a sudden you see Nathan start paddling. It's like, wow. Why is he paddling? There's no set coming, and then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set coming and starts paddling.

But Nathan's already, not only has he seen the set before us, he's paddling to where that first wave of the set is going to break because he's just seen it before everyone else. So what has he seen? Well, he is been looking, he's been staring at that little sliver of horizon, right? And when you're sitting there at, you know, you're just above water level, it literally [00:09:00] is like a tiny little sliver of horizon that you're looking at.

Nathan's looking at the tiniest little details. If he sees a, this little, like a, you imagine a a 20 cent coin reflecting three kilometers away, he see, he's seen that or he is seen that slight lump. Right on the horizon. And he's, because of his experience combined with, he's actually focused on looking, he's so hungry.

I want that wave. I want the next set. I want to be first. He's so hungry for it and so focused that he sees it coming first. And again, it's looking for the details, not just in the wave that you're surfing, but while you're waiting, like can you see that set coming before anyone else? Is it an indicator on the headland and the distance?

Is it a shimmer of a, of a chop being lifted by a set coming further than further out than you imagined? Is it a shadow of a set hitting a, a slightly shallower part of the, [00:10:00] of the top, uh, of the oceanography? You know, further out all these little finer details that not only help us to predict 'cause it's a game of what predicting when and where.

To catch a wave that's the best surfer. That's what the best surfers do, right? They predict when and where the wave is gonna break before anyone else, and on a finer detail than anyone else. You can't do that if you can't focus. So looking for the details in the wave and in the ocean as those sets come in combined with increasing.

One's ability to focus and stay present. Those are the two biggest things that come to mind when you ask that question, because that's the, the basis, the foundation of surfing. Right. Is can I see? The wave coming, can I get to where it's going to start break before anyone else ideally. 'cause it's usually crowded and even if it's not crowded, you know the earlier and the better po you are positioning, the more you're gonna get outta that wave.

So yeah, that, that was, [00:11:00] those are two, the two things that come to mind. Yeah,

Van Vu: no, those are, those are great. You know, I think it's so interesting that you mentioned that. I was interviewing Isaac Stanton. He is from the Northshore, uh, no, he is from Maui, big wave surfer over there and competitive surfer. And he talks about how surfing is just advanced basics.

And what does that mean though? Like surfing. And I was talking to Marcello Castellano, like Olympic surf coach and he is like, people get so obsessed with doing a turn, you're just changing direction on a surfboard. But to actually change direction on a surfboard at high speed, you know, on rail is this incredibly intricate, difficult thing to do, but it's simple at the same time.

There's just so many deeper, it just gets deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper The further you go into it, even though on its surface it seems like this very simple thing, and that's exactly what you're talking about, right? Most people look at a wave like you were sitting on that beach with Tom Carroll, and you're looking at that wave and you're like, oh, that's a wave.

And then Tom Carroll sees like a [00:12:00] million things going on in that wave, you know? And. Whoever can interpret and understand all these little subtleties, they're just gonna, they're just gonna have this advantage. And I think it's so true. I mean, I think that that is actually why I was inspired by your podcast, because there wasn't much in terms of surf.

Really granular surf knowledge out there. Um, and that's the reason why I ask such detailed questions as well. It's because you have to get into like the nitty gritty of things to really get the juice and get the value right. And so what you're saying makes so much sense. And it's funny that you also balance it at the same time with that, that need to focus it, right?

Because there is so much, it's this weird, you know, dynamic that you're constantly trying to manage. Where it's incredibly complicated and dense and nuanced, but that can be so overwhelming that that can inhibit people from doing the next best thing that they should be [00:13:00] doing, and they can get overwhelmed.

And then that leads to like analysis paralysis. So you need to both have all that knowledge. But then also be able to focus and use that knowledge when necessary at the right moment in time. And so your focus as well, that other pieces that you mentioned about knowing how to focus, knowing how to quiet your mind becomes like so instrumental when you're also combining it with.

Having all this huge, you know, having so much knowledge and trying to find all these details, but they kind of go together, right? It's like meditation, like, you know, when you meditate you're actually trying to feel as much sensation and observe as much fine details as you can, and that process allows you to focus.

But that's, that's, so that's really interesting that you brought those two up. You know, most of the time when, if. I was gonna ask that question. You know, it would probably be something technical, but instead, this is much more of like this philosophical, deeper, broader approach that really sets you on your journey.

Huh. Oh,

Michael Frampton: yeah, yeah, yeah. It's you. I agree. You gotta get the [00:14:00] fundamentals right and the great, the best surfers in the world, even good surfers. The fundamental skill is reading and predicting the ocean and reading the way that water moves and the way that waves interact. Because if, like, don't get me wrong, you know, I also think of a, you know, the first interview with Clayton.

From Obi, you know, talking about how the surfboard actually works and the basic techniques of a bottom turn and a a top turn. The way he simplifies it is great. But if you don't have the ability to stay focused and present, and if you don't have the ability to read the wave properly, technique's not gonna help you because you can't implement it and you don't know where to implement it.

That's simple. And a lot of times people. The only thing people often when I, I do a lot of online surf coaching is doing a session yesterday and the surfer was doing everything right. He was just doing it about [00:15:00] half a second too early because he wasn't reading the wave properly. He wasn't present, he was just rushing ahead of himself.

His body position was good. His technique was, was good. He was just doing it all. He just had bad timing essentially because he didn't know what to look for. He didn't know he wasn't reading the way the water was moving and, and, and knowing where to put his surfboard. So it's a very holistic thing, but I think it is the foundation.

Like there's no point working on your bottom turn technique if you don't have the wherewithal and awareness to know where to put that bottom turn and to know and to be. Calm and present enough to know to implement that technique in the moment. 'cause a lot of the times surfing almost feels like, like you're, you're dancing in a disco and the strobe light's going.

It's like these quick little flashes of what goes on. You pull off a wave and you're not really sure what happened 'cause you were so excited and maybe a little bit scared or feeling a little bit of shame or how do I look? [00:16:00] Or that sort of thing. So, and that. You know, for me that sort of being focused encompasses all of that.

It's not as simple as just, you know, meditate for five minutes a day. It's, you know, there's a lot that goes behind that. When I work with someone, you know, we we're talking about developing your own personal surfing philosophy, like are, are you actually just a puppet of the surf industry? You're out there on a shortboard trying to rip a turn, or have you actually sat down and thought about.

Where do you want to see yourself in 10 years time? Who actually do you wanna surf? Like would you wouldn't, you would, maybe you'd rather surf like Devin Howard than Kelly Slater, or maybe you'd just be happy just out there on a long board, just gliding along. A lot of people haven't even thought that through, and a lot of people approach.

Their relationship with surfing in a very short term, hedonistic way. Whereas I'm, I'm here to say, no, no, no. Look, look at skip fry. He's in his eighties. He's still surfing like you. This is a long term relationship. Everything you do now [00:17:00] is, is compounding over time. It's compound interest. So when people sort of just 'cause I see surfing as more of an art really than, than a sport and it's.

How do you wanna surf a wave? What kind of board do you wanna surf? Let's get outta that mentality of letting the surf industry decide for you. 'cause we go on Instagram, we're just fed whatever the surf, the latest surfboard that everyone shortboard, that everyone wants to buy, and. So-and-so did this air or whatever.

It's fun to watch, don't get me wrong, but I, so, so yeah, developing your own personal surfing philosophy and then, you know, understanding that surfing is a relationship and how you want to interact with the ocean and, and surfboards, et cetera. So there's a lot of mindset, psychology and philosophy that goes in behind that as well, which I think is something.

That definitely comes through in, in my podcast o over time, and obviously the technique stuff is really [00:18:00] important, but I think that's actually secondary because it's really, really hard to implement, implement the way that you do a turn and change the way you turn if you don't have all that other stuff sorted out first.

And it just allows you to be calm. And have a lot less anxiety. 'cause anxiety in the surf, surf shame, we've all felt it. That just robs us of the present moment in the flow state, which is when time slows down and we actually, so when time is slowing down and you feel like, oh man, that wave was in slow motion.

I knew, I knew what my little finger was doing. That's 'cause you didn't care what you looked like. You're, you got a good relationship with surfing. You were focused. On the ocean. You weren't focused on what other people were looking at or what's happening. You know that section way down there, you were present and you were focused.

Time slowed down. Now we can look at changing your, the way you surf your technique and we can start looking at footage. And so I see surfing surfing's a very holistic

Van Vu: Yeah, that's very interesting.[00:19:00]

That's, it is actually making me think like, this is interesting. Usually when I have podcasts, we don't get into these kinds of philosophical discussions, but this, this, this point that you're making about, you know, the stress. That every surfer goes through, regardless of your ability level. You know, I remember I was viewing Ridge Lenny and he was talking about how like bummed he would get like, because he was working on his turns and he was trying to do, I mean this guy surfs a hundred foot waves at Nazare, right?

He absolutely rips. He does airs and he was telling me about how like bummed he would get just when he's trying to tweak his turns, you know? So even surfers at the highest of, highest of elite levels still. Struggle with what you're talking about. You know? And I guess the interesting thing though is I like how you're approaching it from this like broader philosophical approach.

'cause I think that that mindset can just make, can make approaching [00:20:00] surfing and dealing with your setbacks much gentler. You know, and, and I, I would imagine that that is such an, especially in such a judgemental. The, the way surfing can be kind of culture. I think having that, like knowing how to reframe things, knowing how to focus and, and quiet your mind, knowing how to define your own standards of surfing and not measure it against why am I not doing errors or why am I, you know, comparing yourself to Kelly s slate.

I think that is really important. Right. So it's, it is, it makes a lot of sense. But it's interesting. I also, when I think about it, 'cause when you were describing that, it just made me think. About my own process. You know, and it's interesting 'cause I've actually personally done a ton of meditation. I used to do like, there were like five years I was meditating, two hours a day.

I was really focused in on it. And you know, I feel like I've done a lot of that work, but for me, this is just personal. Maybe you can give me some coaching here for me, even though I will. [00:21:00] I think it's both sides. I, I think if, if I, you know, 'cause I'm, I'm sure other people are having this question, so maybe you can help other people.

They're like, they might have the same question I do. So that, 'cause I, I find this discussion interesting, right? Because I can approach a situation where. It's an intense packed lineup. Right. And you know, everybody's being watched, everybody's being judged. One of the spots I surf, there's like, it's a small town and you know, it's somewhere in Central America.

I know. I know. Most of the guys in the lineups, they're all tons of locals. Like everybody on the beach is just sitting there watching you surfing. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. So, and then that determines your pecking order. That determines so many things. You know, there's a lot that, that's the interesting thing about surfing is it's actually intensely social.

Right. So it's a situation where you can get really in your head. Oh, yeah. Now the thing is, for me personally, like when I'm paddling out there, I will say. Those like affirming things to myself, you know what I'm saying? I'll be like, you're, [00:22:00] you know, it's not about other people. You don't need to compare yourself to other people.

You know, all these things and which I think are, are healthy, but you still have that little thing, that little voice in the back of your head. And for me, the only way that I shut that off is if I put in the work and I put in the volume and I actually like do so much work that I have the confidence I actually will.

Perform well and then that's when I feel like I have true confidence. 'cause otherwise there's still always this disconnect of where I feel like I should be versus where I'm actually, where I actually am. Regardless of like what kind of like mental framework. I think the mental framework helps like soften that.

But I feel like if I haven't put the work in, then if I haven't gotten the volume in, if I hadn't caught enough waves, then I still. Maybe that's just my ego. Maybe that's just me not having evolved to a certain place, you know? But what would you say to that?

Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's, I mean, it's common and it's understandable.

I don't necessarily think that [00:23:00] feeling ever disappears. Yeah. But when, when you really sit down and, and decide what is it that you want to get outta surfing and you question yourself. Like, oh, may, maybe, let me, let me put it this way. Have you ever been sitting on the beach and seen a good surfer mess up a wave and not surf to their potential?

Van Vu: Oh, of

Michael Frampton: course. Did you think less of that person?

Van Vu: No. I mean, well, the, the thing is that you, it, it, it's pattern recognition. That's the way human beings are wired. Right? If they consistently blow it, then you're gonna be like, oh, you know. But if they're, if they blow every once in a while, then you're like, okay, you know?

Michael Frampton: Yeah, but e, E, even if said person consistently blew it for a period of time, would you stop being friends with them?

Van Vu: Yeah,

Michael Frampton: of course you wouldn't. No, of course not. Right? Would they maybe potentially go down the pecking order a little bit in terms of getting set waves? Of course surfing, there's a hierarchy of competence in [00:24:00] surfing, and there's nothing worse than surfers wasting waves.

So understanding the surf culture. Part of it as well.

Van Vu: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: And then that makes you think, oh gosh, maybe, maybe I don't wanna be fighting for set waves because of the pressure. So maybe I'm gonna, maybe I'm gonna buy an 11 foot glider and surf over there where no one else is surfing. Yeah. And just enjoy the pure joy of just gliding along a wave.

Van Vu: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: So it's sort of thinking deeper. Where do those pressures. Come from, whether they're external pressures from a crowd or internal pressures against how you surfed last week 'cause you were surfing more or where you think you should be again, it can, what, what do you want to get out of today's surf?

And there's nothing you can do of, you know, if you're, if you live somewhere and it's always crowded, there's nothing you can do about that usually. [00:25:00] However, I always find there's always. Somewhere where a different kind of surfboard would be surfing different kind of waves up the beach or around the corner where there's far less people.

That's reminds me of another episode with Aaron James, a philosopher. He calls it adventure surfing, where he is just choosing the type of board and the to suit a different kind of wave that no one else surfs, which is what I was doing for a long time when I was living in California. Everywhere is crowded except when you're buying an 11 foot glider and just.

You can surf over there where the waves are kind of breaking, but no one else is surfing. You just paddle over there and catch 20 waves in half an hour and you didn't rip a big turn or anything, but you still connected with surfing, connected with nature. Went through the process and that sort of, oh, I should be surfing like said surfer.

On the on, on the tour. That just disappears and. That's what's cool about surfing is there's [00:26:00] so many different ways to surf. That's why I like to think of surfing as far more of an art form than it is a sport. 'cause obviously when you think of a sport and in another individual sport like tennis, you know, you, there's.

There's far more restrictions if you turn up to play tennis with some weird looking ball and some oversized racket. I mean, people might not wanna play with you, right? But in surfing you can choose where you surf, what waves you surf, what surfboard, the style of surfing you wanna do. It's more like music, you know what I mean?

Whereas you can be an amazing jazz musician and know all of the theory and be a technical virtuoso as a jazz musician, but no one ever hires you. They just don't really like your music. Or you can be some teenage punk band that's just playing bar chords, but you are, you're so confident in what you are playing and your style and people actually like it.

And then obviously everything in between. So with surfing, you get to choose your style of surfing [00:27:00] and. Do you know what I mean? Like, you can think of the, the teenage punk band. They don't feel the pressure. Oh, I'm not a, I'm not a classical jazz musician with perfect technique. They don't care because they just love getting on stage or sitting at home in their bedroom, just practicing bar chords.

There's no, whereas. That's the beautiful thing about music, I think is it's accepted that there's different genres and you can be a great musician in a very simple way, whereas in surfing, it's sort of the, I think the industry has got a lot to answer for in terms of the pressure it puts on on us. Oh, you need to be surfing the latest shortboard.

Doing top to bottom surfing, or you need to be surfing a mid length like Devon Howard, or a long board like Joel Tudor with, well, you don't, you could just be like skip fry and just stand there looking right. Graceful and in tune with the wave. As long as you are not getting in people's way, it doesn't really matter.

I think obviously there's some rules in surfing. You don't wanna annoy people or get in their way and there's ethics you've [00:28:00] gotta respond to, but apart from that, you know, you get to choose what you want to get out of your relationship with the

Van Vu: ocean. Yeah. It's so interesting. I like this. It's like, it's really a question of values.

Like what do you. What do you wanna take outta your surfing? What kind of surfing do you find aesthetic and beautiful? Like what do you aspire to? You know? And that's really gonna drive your approach to it, which makes a lot of sense. You know, I'm definitely guilty of that. I'm just obsessed with progression, you know, so I don't even question it.

But I do think that there is a lot of, I mean, and when I say progression, like I, I think all of that is beautiful, you know, but I'm the kind of person that's always obsessed, like, okay, how can I do a better turn? Whereas your decision might not even be like, I don't even care about turns. I just wanna like take the most beautiful line.

And you're right. That has just as much, that has just as much. Kind of value and, and is just as valid a form of surfing as all the other ones. You [00:29:00] know?

Michael Frampton: Definitely I've been there. I've, you know, I wanted to, that's what got me in, that's what was the birth of the podcast. I wanted to know what surfing's so amazing, but what does it feel like to do a cutback like that?

Oh my goodness. And the, the progression is obvious and there's a. A well-formed line in terms of performance in the surf coaches that do video analysis everywhere, and it's a great pursuit to do. I think now I'm a bit older. It's sort of. It's not like I've let go of progression, it's just I've defined it in a different way.

So trying to maneuver a a giant surfboard through small waves is really challenging. It's really hard to do. I challenge anyone to go out there and try and surf a, a massive surfboard at a novelty surf, breakthrough. A crowd, I think is. It is a different kind of challenge. It's not easy. People make it look easy or I, or maybe the challenge is I'm just gonna sit out the back and catch that one big set that comes in 40 [00:30:00] every 40 minutes.

You know, you can think, think of the old salt salty dogs who that's their goal. Yeah. So there's, I I, I guess it depends on how you define progression. I think also maintaining a, a level of surfing ability as you age is a pro, is a progression in itself. And don't get me wrong, if, if it's. You know, if it's, if it's six foot clean and barreling, I wanna be on a shortboard.

Right. It just so happens it's not often like that.

Van Vu: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: So true.

Van Vu: No, it, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, when I interviewed Chris from Pilgrim here in, in New York, you know, he, he, he talked a lot about just getting on a, a glider and just the, the sensations and the feelings that he would get from riding. An 11 foot skip fry in like the tiniest of tiny waves.

And that's exactly how you described it, is like, it's not easy, it's its own kind of challenge. Right. And that's often those challenges are, are oftentimes your, your greatest teachers. And so do you think, you know, as somebody that probably just deserves surfs, like a large variety of craft, [00:31:00] like what has riding an 11 foot glider, how has that informed your, you know, surfing on smaller boards?

Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Huge. That was an interview I did probably five years ago with Bud Freis in Santa Cruz. He said, just get on a log. It's the best thing you can do for your shortboarding. I didn't really believe it at the time, but every, after every interview, I'd always try and implement at least one main takeaway from each interview.

So I, I bought a log and started long boarding and. It forces you, you have to predict the wave in a very different way. When you're surfing a big surfboard, you read the wave differently, you interact with the wave very differently. And then when you jump back on a shortboard, it feels so much easier in a way because you've, you've kind of almost learned a different way to surf and you, you've had to hone in on some of the, some different details.

On the wave, look for different lines. You, you [00:32:00] make, 'cause of the surfboard itself is, is longer and heavier. You end up surprising yourself how, what sections you can make, what lines you can take to stay, to stay balanced. You have to choose your line much earlier because it's not as agile. And all of those lessons can be applied to a shortboard just to refine.

The way you move and interact with the board, but also obviously the way you read the ocean as well. And the same, I think the same goes with all different surfboards. Obviously with a, a big 11 foot glider that's even exaggerated more 'cause it's even longer and heavier than a, than a long board. But then you can go to the other extreme, you know, I've got, I've.

Got surfer five two fish, and all of a sudden you've got almost zero swing weight and it's very touchy and sensitive, and you have to read the ocean and your wave selection changes. And then I just interviewed Donald Brink and he was talking about going as narrow as 12 inches on a surfboard. Yeah. Like going, how, how narrow can a surfboard [00:33:00] be?

Van Vu: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: And I, it's all, I, I often think of it as like, let's say you're a. Let's say you are a musician and you play punk music, but you go off and spend a week learning jazz. When you come back to playing punk, you're going to, it's gonna be so much easier, and you're gonna hear, oh, you know what? I could add this note in.

Oh, I could write a song. It's still a punk song, but I'm gonna write it based on the stuff I learned at jazz school. So what, whatever you choose to do, whenever you step out of it and come back. It. You bring those lessons with you, but more so it just makes you a more rounded surfer too. You think of a musician that has, has played all different styles.

They might have one style they play most often, but every influence they've had and every mu, every instrument they learn, informs, informs them, makes them more adaptable. If you wanted to work as a musician, you could fit into any band. The more. The more instruments you play, the more styles of music you learn.

[00:34:00] And because surfing's so dynamic, we want that arsenal. You know what I mean? Like I still see, I still, there's a, a break I surf here, which is, I call it a novelty wave. It's a point break and it's a very soft wave. It's very much a long board wave. But every time I go out there, there's 20 year olds on performance short boards, just pumping and hopping, and.

Just getting front yelling, getting frustrated, and just like it's, I get you want to, you wanna learn how to surf a shortboard, but when the waves are waist high or knee high, why do you know? It's so much more fun to ride the surfboard that is appropriate for the conditions. And, you know, you can surf anything from Kneehigh to a hundred foot.

There is no limit in surfing. You know, the, the, when you say progression. This wave size is a progression in itself. How, how far are you willing to push that wave speed? You can, you know, book a, anyone can nowadays can just [00:35:00] book a trip to the tropics and go and surf crazy groundswells and warm water surfing is so awesome.

And the more we learn about different boards and, and styles of surfing, I think the just makes you more adaptable. Adaptability is, is a massive one in surfing, I think. Is it?

Van Vu: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: Even, even at a wave pool, you know, every wave's a little bit different.

Van Vu: Yeah. I remember, I think Steph was talking about, you know, what she's focused on now that, you know, she's not competing, is focused on competing, and she's like, oh, I, I just wanna focus on like how I perform in different variety of waves.

That's literally what she's focused on right now. It's just there's a different set of conditions that I want to get good at. You're Stephanie Gilmore, you're probably good in everything, but there's, even for her, she's still like, I want to, I wanna be better in whatever, crappy waves or bigger waves or whatever that might be.

You know? So that adaptability is so key. Well, so what are some of the, the biggest mistakes that you've seen people make? You know, what? What, as you know. What do you see people do? I mean, you, you've talked [00:36:00] about board choice, you've talked about wave selection, you've talked about the mental things. Are, is there anything else that you think really stands out to you as something that, you know, is something that people struggle with a lot?

Michael Frampton: The, I think most, most surfers, it's that shame factor that gets in their way. They're, they're ashamed of the way they surf in it. It's a catch 22. 'cause it often drives them to get better and drives their progression.

Van Vu: Yep.

Michael Frampton: But if you think of a, I use the musician analogy again, the musician isn't, isn't going to practice on stage because if they, if you had to practice on stage as a musician, there'd be a lot of shame for years until you got good enough.

But you can practice in your bedroom without. There's no fear of other people's opinions in your bedroom. So the hardest part of getting better at surfing is trying to, the problem with surfing is you have to do it on stage. 'cause there's usually, you don't really wanna surf by yourself, especially if you're a beginner.

So letting go [00:37:00] of that fear of the way you look or what other people think of the way you surf is a huge one. 'cause that's the only thing that's gonna allow you to focus on the wave. First of all, so I often say to beginners, I mean, stop trying to learn how to surf. At first point, Malibu like, just, just go down to a closeout beach break and, and catch a hundred whitewater waves.

You get to, you know, there is a difference between a, a whitewater wave and a whitewater wave. You can still learn how to read better. There's better whitewater waves. You know, you can still learn all the fundamentals of surfing, you can practice it and at close out beach breaks. On soft tops. There's less shame 'cause the only other people there are the people learning to surf or the the person sunbathing on the beach who's not even looking at you anyway.

So there are ways to have less of that shame. So I actually think maybe it's have getting therapy done or figuring out or actually thinking about some of these deeper things about surfing philosophy that will help you. In terms of that. And then [00:38:00] so there's, that's the bigger overarching mistake that people make, which essentially is a lack of focus really.

Because if you're feeling shame or anxiety, then that's just, it's just robbing your ability to focus on the present moment, which, and the wave and the way the board feels underneath you. 'cause you're worried about how you look or falling off, et cetera. It just robs you of that flow, state of that focus.

'cause when you, like, when you watch kids learn to surf, they don't care. They don't compare themselves to anyone, they're just messing around. They start playing in the whitewater with nothing, and then they go to a bodyboard and then they jump on dad's surfboard and they just pure stoke on the joy of interacting with the ocean, just riding the wave.

So they don't have, just 'cause they're kids, they don't have that shame. So if we can, I think as adult learners, or adults that want to get better. As they age, you can adopt that sort of childhood joyous mindset and not care about what people think. Easier said than done. That's, that is [00:39:00] a big mistake that, that people make.

Board choice is another one. You know, there's a lot of people out there just riding the, the wrong surfboards for the conditions. So I think matching the surfboard to the, not only the conditions, but to your level of surfing as well as like, sit down, have a think, do I really care about. Riding a performance shortboard, I think you'll find most people don't, they're like, actually, you know what I could do with a bit more volume and I just have more fun 'cause I know I'm not gonna, you know, so that, that's, that's the classic one that's, that's big.

And then I, once you have the ability to, to focus in on surfing and then be on the right surfboard, then yeah. Cleaning up your technique is, is the obvious one there. Obviously getting some footage and working with a surf coach is. Is, is a good strategy, but I often, a lot of dry land, like outside of the water training is, I think is underutilized nowadays.

So, you know, there's, I call it a, it's almost like a 1% ratio. So if you're surfing for an hour or [00:40:00] 90 minutes or a hundred, let's say, let's say you go surfing for a hundred minutes. Probably one of those minutes is actually surfing. I think that's quite a generous ratio. Oh yeah. So for sure. Yep. So think about that.

You're, you're standing on a surfboard for one minute, for every hour and a half that you surf. How are you gonna develop the strength, the body awareness, the balance, all of those just fundamental athletic principles, how it's gonna take you years. So why not stand in front of a mirror and work on your technique?

Work on some surf specific strength drills to, to be able to pop up smoothly and know what does a good functional surf stance look like? What does it feel like? All those, and then maybe even jump on a skateboard and, and lock in some of those surfing moves the way that a musician would run scales and chords.

They're not necessarily playing a song. They're learning the basics and the fundamentals of the song. They wanna [00:41:00] play or learn by learning the chords and holding them so they sound nice and learning the scales. How do they sound? How do they feel or, and look at other, you know, older surfing's very young.

It's a young sport or art form. Look at martial arts most of your time when you're practicing martial arts is, first of all, a lot of it's philosophy. Sometimes you're just standing there listening to the, the, the coach or the or the sifu speak about the philosophy of the tradition and then secondly, you're going through forms or Carters slow the movements that you need to do in a sparring situation.

You're doing it slowly or strength training that movement. Purposely in front of a mirror, whether it's hitting a bag or doing the slow motion movements with someone in front of you. Only then can you go into a sparring situation where let's say you, let's say you wanna lift your arm up to do a block.

If that movement of lifting your arm up to do a block isn't ingrained in your [00:42:00] nervous system and is almost thoughtless, there's no way you're gonna be able to do that movement in time as someone's throwing a punch at you because you're just. You're so scared. And essentially Kelly Slater calls surfing a martial art.

And I like that analogy 'cause it's so, it's such a stressful situation, surfing. 'cause even if you're not aware of it consciously, subconsciously, your brain knows you're in water, you bump your head That's. And that happens all the time in little waves. People bump their head and they drown or they come or they have to be rescued.

The sharks. This the list of danger. This, this is part of the reason why surfing is so fun is 'cause it actually is dangerous, whether you realize it or not. And then the surfing is a game of getting as close to the white water as you can without falling off as close to the most powerful part of the wave.

You're toying with mother nature's energy. And when the waves get decent, that's, there's a lot of energy there, and that's what martial arts is, right? You're playing with an external force trying to dance. This good martial artist will dance with [00:43:00] aspiring partner, an external force, and flow with it naturally, but only if they've practiced those movements and learnt them ingrained in their nervous system.

Only then can they implement those movements with speed under a stressful situation. So you think a great, we take it for granted how much time and effort and repetitions that these surfers who are good at it, put it. They've been surfing since they were four. Yeah. Now they spent five years learning how to read the ocean and playing in the ocean and getting slammed onto the, before they even stood up on a surfboard.

Probably a lot of them just playing in the white water and messing around. Before they even caught an unbroken wave. I'm watching my kids learn to surf and it's, you know, they've been in at the beach almost all summer. Every summer for my 13, for 13 years. My 13-year-old, only this summer or last summer was he really starting to kind of get surfing.

That's how long it takes. Surfing is a long [00:44:00] term thing.

Van Vu: Oh yeah.

Michael Frampton: And, but I, I think the cool thing as an adult learner is you can. Learn. I mean, look at Brad, Brad Gerlach, who's got the wave key, for example, where he's kind of literally broken the movements of surfing down into a martial arts kind of thing.

That's next level, and you don't have to necessarily go that far, although I do think it's great, but the simple, keep getting your paddling fitness up like with your product is one big thing. And then learning how to do a popup in slow motion. Is another thing, and then learning what a basic surf stance is and how it feels.

You get those three fundamentals sorted. Surfing. My philosophy is that once you stand up on your surfboard with your feet in the right spot, in the right part of the wave, on a good wave, the rest of surfing is easy. What happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet? That is the hardest part of surfing, reading, knowing where to go.

Reading the ocean, paddling around, predicting [00:45:00] when and where the wave is going to break. Entering that wave with good timing, popping up with good timing. That is putting. Making sure your feet are in the right spot, making sure you're not standing too tall or too low, having a good, simple surf stance, all of that stuff.

It's all the hardest part of surfing, no matter what level you are. Once you're standing up, surfing's actually pretty simple, especially when you look at someone like ey, like he barely moves his body. It's all timing. It's all timing and rhythm. So the I, I think people also underestimate just how hard it is to paddle into a wave or to to paddle, to where the waves breaking and then paddle into the wave and pop up is the most athletically demanding part of surfing as well.

If you think that it's yoga with dolphins, you're dreaming. You have no, like you, when you watch these athletes, they make it look easy. Yes. But they, they are very strong paddlers. They have very strong at popping up and they have a lot of strength and mobility through those movements. Most of them will take it for granted 'cause they've [00:46:00] been doing it since they were four years old.

But that doesn't mean that we can't develop that with dry land training and. Starting to learn, what do we look for when we go surfing? Like that, sort of like knowing how to focus, what to focus on and training the body like a martial artist would train. That's the basis and, and, and paddling and your paddling fitness and all that stuff.

That's the basis of your, of your surfing experience. And it's ironically, it's what we spend most of the time doing.

Van Vu: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: Like 99% of your time surfing. It's not spent surfing, it's paddling around and looking for waves and sitting there staring at the ocean, but a hundred percent. Yeah, no, I've, but you know, this 2015 where I really started to focus on, I was determined on getting better.

I, I don't regret all any of it because now. Because I spent years just obsessed with surfing and focused on it and trying to get better and figuring out all this stuff. If I don't surf for a little while, [00:47:00] I can still go out in a, into a crowded lineup and, and even if I've never been there before. 'cause just 'cause I know what to look for, I can go out and, and get a set wave and surf, but not as good as any of the locals obviously.

But just 'cause I know what to look for and it's such a cool place to be with your surfing. It's just to have that ability just to paddle out when you do get a moment. And just enjoy, you know, I choose the right surfboard for my fitness level and for the waves. I know what to look for. I know how to, to read the waves.

But the, the, the break eye surf, I'd say one, maybe two out of every 20 waves that come through is actually quite surfable. It's a very novelty wake. You've gotta have the refractions from the headland and the, the right periods and the two swells meeting up for the wave to actually peel. Most people, I, I know how to choose those waves 'cause I know what's, 'cause I know what to look for.

So, yeah, I, I think being probably one of the biggest mistakes actually, to give you an over an overall answer is people [00:48:00] just aren't obsessed with surfing enough. I kind of agree. Like, it's almost like, and I went through a stage two where I was sort of was like, I felt this obsession and it felt selfish and it felt wrong.

I was like, I almost di denied it from myself. And then, then as I got a bit older, I was like, you know what? So what. I love surfing that night. Why not be obsessed with it? And that time I spent years just honestly, if I wasn't surf, every spare moment, I still had a job. I was still raising a family. But every spare moment I had, I was surf either surfing or watching surfing or researching what surfboards to wear, or watching tutorials on YouTube or reading, reading.

There's, there's books on how to read water. I was upset. I was reading a different, I was trying different trainers and physical therapists to get the body in tune. Ev like for years, every single spare moment was surfing, surfing, surfing. And once I [00:49:00] accepted that and dove in, that's when I got better. So surfing is, it is one of the hardest sports or arts.

Oh my

Van Vu: god.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. 'cause of all those complexities, we just. Touched the surface on, but that's what makes it so interesting and, and cool.

Van Vu: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: Is, is, is how

Van Vu: tricky it is. It is the deepest puzzle that I've ever tried to crack myself. That's why I'm so obsessed with it. And I feel like that's why everybody's so obsessed with it.

'cause it's so fricking hard. Yeah. But then if you put the work in and you, it pays off, it's the best feeling in the world. Oh yeah. Oh man. Yeah. So that, that would be

Michael Frampton: my, that would be my, my challenge to anyone listening is just do one year obsessed. Let's go through one season, summer. Spring, winter, autumn, or fall.

Go through one one season of being obsessed with surfing. Spend your money on surf trips and surfboards and surf education and training equipment and personal trainers, or spend all your money on everything [00:50:00] surfing. Follow. The Ragland Surf Report and Jonathan Wayne Freeman on Instagram and learn about surf culture through satire.

Like read books on how to read water, do every course that's out there on surfing. Go work with a local coach, work with online coaches. Just spend all of your money and your time obsessing and learning about surfing for one year, and then see how you feel after a year. 'cause it takes, I think it takes at least one year of obsessing with surfing before you even begin to know whether you even want to keep pursuing it.

So many, so many people you see start surfing in summer. They have all this great experience on a soft top and warm water, and then all of a sudden it gets a little bit bigger and the water gets colder as summer ends, and then they give up. That's it. Well, no, come on. You haven't even, you go through the, the, the autumn and the winter, and then as spring starts to get warmer and warmer your second summer of surfing.

If [00:51:00] you can push through that, my goodness. It's, it's so much deeper and, and more fun. That's the thing about surfing is it's so much fun. But I think like any relationship, you're gonna go through hard times. And if you, if you like any long-term relationship, whether it's with a human or the ocean, you can't expect it to be amazing all of the time.

There's gonna be challenges. Now there's plenty of, I've never regretted a surf, but there's been plenty of times where I've forced myself to go surfing.

Van Vu: Oh yeah. And that's so funny. 'cause. You don't even, you've only been surfing for a year or two. You haven't even gotten to the fun part. You know, I mean, you've gotten a taste like the tiniest, tiniest of tastes, and that piece, that taste that you get is like the best piece of cake you've had in your entire life, but you have no idea.

What is awaiting you, you know what I'm saying? Like getting your first barrel, that piece of cake that you had is just gonna feel like something complete. You know, like you can't even explain it. So yeah, [00:52:00] those are, those are really wise words. I love it. Yeah. I really like your philosophical, like big picture approach, which I think is.

Really unique. I haven't really heard people think about it or talk about in that context. I've heard little slivers of it. You know, there's, there's definitely philosophical surfers, but I've never, I've never had a philosophical surf education discussion, so I, I really appreciate that. But we gotta work towards closing up.

I got a couple, few last questions for you.

Michael Frampton: Well, let me just say firstly, let, oh, yeah. All of that, all that stuff I've touched on, I've. The stuff I've learned through not only doing the podcast and interviewing all these people, but whilst I was on that journey, I was putting all those lessons into place on my own surfing, as well as working as a surf coach.

So all that stuff is all in a course on surf mastery.com. So if you go to surf mastery.com, there's a mini course that gives a really concise overview of, of the stuff that happens in between when the surfboard's under your arm and under your feet, essentially, all the stuff that other coaches aren't.

[00:53:00] Going into, and then all the stuff, technique stuff, I, I do as a one-on-one sessions as well, which you can, you can book there at, at surf mastery.com as well. Awesome.

Van Vu: And then are you on, you're on Instagram, what's, what's your social media handle?

Michael Frampton: Yes, Instagram Surf Mastery on Instagram as well. Yep. I'm not overly active on there, but I definitely, if I want, once I post a new show, I'll, I'll put a little snippet on there and certainly add some of the, the, the more, some of the more curated surfing that I see on Instagram ends up on my story as well.

Van Vu: Okay. Got it. All right then. So people know where to find you. I last three questions and these are you, we, we gotta, we'll keep these ones short 'cause these are actually big questions, but just like your short answer, any light bulb moments when it came to technique bottom time, they either light bulb moments either when you interviewed somebody or in a realization you had yourself when it came to technique.

Michael Frampton: I mean, I remember my first proper bottom turn. And [00:54:00] remembering how, how much strength it took to do it and how much force was going through the board and my legs at the time. I was quite surprised and I was lucky to, to enough to have having been filmed. So I saw evidence and it was the first time I'd really sling shotted back up the wave, you know, three times faster than every other bottom turn that I'd done previous.

And it took, gosh, you know, that was 15 years into my surfing journey before that happened.

Van Vu: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: And it's the, in terms of everything, everything that happens after you've stood up on a surfboard, the bottom turn is the basis of that for sure. Alright.

Van Vu: Any light bulb moments when it came to boards or fins?

Michael Frampton: Oh yeah, lots. I mean, getting, getting into long boarding was a big one, I would say. Yeah. Just getting into bigger surfboards. Yep. Whether that's a. A big, a bigger, you know, whether that's a seven foot mid-length or a 10 foot long board, just stepping outside of the, of the shortboard [00:55:00] mainstream and whatever the mainstream pushes at you.

So I would say my first one was, was getting a log. I got a a nine, it was a nine eight Wayne Rich that I got. That really sort of made me fall in love with bigger surfboards, which then led to a bigger glider and, and, and some of the mid lengths as well.

Van Vu: Okay. And what is your intention when you go for a surf?

What goes through your brain?

Michael Frampton: Ooh, my intention when I go for a surf, first thing that comes to mind is to enjoy it, like to have fun. And I think the funnest thing is, is molding with or dancing with nature. Like listening to the wave and, and what whatever surfboard I've chosen and whatever wave I'm surfing, just trying to be in tune with that and do what's right in that moment to dance with, with, with nature and, and be in a flow state.

That's the intention. I always, there's a quote I like to say to, to people, which is, don't try and catch the [00:56:00] wave. Accept the invitation to dance. So there's another little tip there in the mindset. And I think that's a good question because yeah, if you're trying to catch the wave, there's this certain, like you are trying to, you know, you're, you're trying to go hunting for it or something and catch it.

Well, the wave's just gonna do what it does. You actually, if your intention is just to accept, it's inviting you, the wave wants you to be on it. If you have that. Initial intention, the wave wants you to dance with it. Then it's not only gonna help you catch the wave, but help you sort of get in in into sync with it a bit more often.

And that's what all good surfing is. Really, it's in sync with the wave. Alright, I guess we'll close

Van Vu: it on that. Well, thanks for joining, Michael. This was a pleasure and people know where to find you and yeah, well, yeah, a lot to do this again sometime. This was fun. Awesome. Thanks Van. Appreciate it.

Michael Frampton: Thank you so much for tuning into the show.

If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend. Make sure you subscribe and of course, go and check out the Surf [00:57:00] Basis podcast. Uh, van has quite the back catalog. And remember, if you like what you heard in this episode, make sure you go ahead and check out the Surf Mastery Method mini course. And all other free products [email protected].

You know what? You know why I made the course. It's, uh, we all know how important the bottom turn is to set up the wave, but do you know what's more important than the bottom turn? It's how you pop up. Yeah. If your pop up isn't smooth and balanced. Good luck trying to get a good bottom turn in. And guess what?

If you haven't read the ocean well and chose a right wave and timed your popup well, looked where and when to pop up, set the right line, all the stuff that happens before you even get to your feet, if you've messed all of that up, a good bottom turn simply isn't going to happen. So that is what my course is all about.

What happens between when the board. It's under your arm and under your feet. That [00:58:00] includes the popup reading waves, the stuff that really makes the difference in your surfing journey. That is what the Surf Mastery Method mini course is all about. So go ahead and check that [email protected]. And also remember, the Surf Mastery Podcast is their educational back catalog.

So go through and listen to each episode if you're new to the show until next time, to keep surfing.

The Surf Mastery Podcast: 

For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

What if the key to mastering any craft - surfing, storytelling, relationships, or even table tennis - lies in simply slowing down and noticing the smallest details?

In a fast-paced world that often rewards intensity and output, we easily overlook the quiet power of presence and reflection. Whether you're navigating the chaos of Mavericks or confronting inner narratives, this episode reveals how attention to detail can reshape not just your performance, but your perspective on life itself.

• Discover why focusing on one small detail - like the placement of your back foot - can dramatically improve your surf sessions and silence self-doubt.

• Learn how table tennis taught Kyle Thiermann a life-altering lesson about humility, ego, and mastery that spills over into his big wave surfing.

• Explore how interviewing his parents not only led to his new book but also transformed his relationships and deepened his empathy through the art of asking better questions.

Listen now to uncover how Kyle Thiermann’s philosophy of detail and reflection can elevate not just your surfing, but your entire approach to growth and connection.

Kyles' - Book:  https://geni.us/onelastqbeforeyougo

Website: https://www.kylethiermann.com

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/kyle_tman/

Kyle was first on the show in 2018 - episode 27

Kyle Thiermann is a surfer, podcast host, and author of One Last Question Before You Go, a book about why you should interview your parents.

Music: Leo Meizoso - Soul Elegance 

Michael Frampton: Kyle Thiermann is a writer, podcast host sponsored surfer for Patagonia, and most recently a published author, which is very cool and a book I am excited to talk about. But before we get into the book, I was just looking through the notes of our first podcast back in 2018 and the most important advice that I took away from that interview, you probably don't remember it was quite some time ago, but was basically to slow down and look for the details, which reiterated.

Something that Tom Carroll said the year before that he was guest number two on the podcast. And that's what he said. He said, look at the details. 'cause the, what sparked the conversation with Tom was, Tom was, you know, a good 10, 15 years older than me, and we went surfing before I interviewed him. And the waves were maybe waist high, high tide, no water, drawing off the bottom.

And here's this old man like doing full roundhouse cutbacks on waves that I couldn't even catch. And I was scratching my head. He's like, I can't even catch these waves. If I do, I'm like pumping, just trying to stay with it. And you're just flowing these beautiful round out, like, what is going on? What am I missing?

And he's just like, oh, it's just, you gotta look for the details. You go look for the little ripples and the secondary swells and the back washes and it's like trying to get blood out of a stone, surfing small waves. And if you don't have an eye for the finer details. You'll never do it. So it was really cool to, to have you sort of reiterate it as well.

And the question I have that comes off the back of that is, is that still your philosophy in surfing and in other parts of life? How has that changed? How has that evolved? Are you still looking for the details and trying to slow down in surfing? What's been going on since we last spoke?

Kyle Thiermann: I love that you checked out our last podcast because, , that's great advice that I should still give myself, uh, younger, wiser, Kyle Thiermann, uh, said that, and it's a very good reminder, uh, particularly, you know, if we want to take this concept of looking at the details specifically to surfing.

I find that my worst sessions are when I I'm thinking too broadly about myself as a surfer. As an example, take off on the first wave, , try and hit the lip mistime it fall. All of a sudden this flood, and maybe it was just me, but this like flood of negative narrative enters my brain. Like I was never that good at surfing.

I, my best days are behind me. , , this board doesn't work. Like these grand brush strokes of negativity can often, , build just a, a narrative that can ruin a session. , And, what's in common about all of those narratives are that they're too broad, right? That you're thinking about yourself generally.

And I think one of the best antidotes to negative self-talk is to look at the details. So, okay, now I'm gonna take off on this next wave and I'm just gonna think about. Where my back foot is placed on my pad. I, I find that that's actually one of the healthiest things for me to think about when I'm taking off on a wave is where is my back foot, because that's the control center of surfing.

I grew up, um, actually before I started surfing, started surfing when I was maybe 10, 11 years old. Uh, but before then, I was a really serious skateboarder. And still, you know, I had halfpipes in my backyard growing up. My older brother built this crazy six foot, six foot halfpipe with a seven foot extension.

So growing up in Santa Cruz, I was very much a, a, a, a multi-sport athlete and the bad habit of skateboarding. , That can transfer to surfing and it transfer to my surfing is that you put too much weight on your front foot. , 'Cause skateboarding is when, when you're pushing down on a halfpipe, when you know, you, you are more centered over your front foot.

Whereas surfing the control center is in the back. So it's something that I've really had to fight my whole life. Um, a bad habit to break. And even still, when I surf, I can just focus on the back pad. Okay, where's my back foot? That's a small detail I can think about throughout a wave. And suddenly, because I'm thinking about that, I can't think about this bigger narrative of how good I am as a surfer, which is not gonna help you improve at all.

You can take all those details just focusing on one thing. You know, I think a, a, a great theme of your podcast really is. Breaking apart this vexing craft of surfing into these smaller and smaller bite-sized chunks. And that's how improvement happens, , from an athletic standpoint. And it's how improvement happens from really any task that you want to take on extrapolating that concept out to, , writing, which is, uh, uh, um, what I've been focusing on quite a lot over the last few years, if I'm looking for a story to report, I was just down in Porto Escondido reporting a story for the Surfer's Journal.

It's gonna come out in a number of months. All I'm looking for is details. The, the thing that we hate reading about are generalities. The thing we love is, is reading about details. The best writers are always writing with their five senses. What is the, what did the streets smell like? How hot was it that day?

What did it actually feel like to be there? And it's, . Quite profound what being more specific with your thoughts can do for happiness.

Michael Frampton: Broadly speaking, do you think that just makes you more present in the present moment?

Kyle Thiermann: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it also gets you out of your own head if you're just thinking about the tactile feeling of what's around you, the board, the waves.

, You're, it's really hard to think about yourself generally, and a lot of, uh, suffering that happens and a lot of just bad sessions, bad surf sessions are the result of you thinking about yourself too much.

Michael Frampton: . Usually in the past or pre or future as well. When you, when you feel you get stuck in your head, you're usually thinking you're judging yourself of how others might think of you, which is something that is maybe happened in the past or is about to happen in the future.

Kyle Thiermann: Oh yeah. It's just imaginary arguments in our heads. Yeah. All day long. Right. And, and one of the best things about surfing, and the reason I've been addicted to it since I was 10 years old and still do it on a, a practically regular basis, is that it is one of the best ways to get out of our own head, because there's just so much going on, you know, and, and, um, I, one of my favorite things to do is take nons surfers out surfing for their first session because it's like.

It's like taking someone on their first acid trip or something, they're like, whoa, I had no idea this thing, this whole thing even existed. They're so outside of this, um, conventional context, you know, the day-to-day on the phone, standing upright on your feet, on solid ground, like we've all experienced that if we take someone surfing that sense of awe that they get, and it, it can be easy to forget that when we be, when surfing becomes a more normalized and habitual thing for us.

, And I think it can take more effort to get out of our own way, , and into those little detailed moments.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Is it the only way that you can surf Mavericks?

Kyle Thiermann: Well,

if you're surfing Mavericks and you are distracted from what's happening right in front of you, you're gonna get yourself in a lot of trouble really quickly. It's very easy for that to happen because a lot of times if you're out surfing any big wave, you know, you might catch only one or two waves that session, right?

When you're surfing big waves of any kind, chances are, you know, unless you're Kai Lenny, you're not gonna catch that many waves per session. And as a result, there's a lot of time sitting. Uh, and in that sitting time you can start to daydream, uh, certain narratives. And one of the best things that, that I've found is to just try and stay focused on the tactile feeling of being out there, you know, cold water on the face.

How do I feel in my body? Paddle strokes. Like, and, and for that reason, I have a real hard time going out to big waves on a boat and just jumping straight in the lineup because I, I feel that I don't get that warmup period of paddling out through Whitewater and just getting sens sensitized to my body.

You know, it's a pretty weird thing that you can go out to a place like Mavs on a boat, paddle 15 strokes, and all of a sudden you're in 50 foot waves. Like that shouldn't happen. Right. You just feel like you're like dropped into a, a completely different atmosphere and uh, yeah. I mean, if I ever take a boat out there, I always make sure to paddle around a little bit, go underwater, do a few breath holes, and just get into the feeling of this new environment.

Michael Frampton: , I imagine it. I just had a, a, a, a picture of, you know, when you, you're at a concert and you want to go to the front, your favorite band's about to come on and you want to, and you have to pick a line through just chaos. Pure chaos.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Frampton: And if you, and if you focus on the crowd and the different individuals, and it almost seems like there's no way through when it's just so overwhelming.

But if you just try and look for the gaps in the crowd and be polite and make your way through, you end up. Navigating all of this chaos and you achieve your goal. I imagine that's what negotiating a drop at Mavericks is. Like, if you don't choose exactly where the center of your board is going to go, you might get clipped.

Do you have to sort of ignore the, the, the chaos in a certain way? Or are you trying to Oh, a hundred

Kyle Thiermann: percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. And, uh, you know, I once did a podcast, uh, with Grant Washburn, who's, who's Surfed Mavericks more times than anyone ever. I I think he, he's documented every session. He's been out there more than a thousand times.

He was part of the really early crew to be out there, and he's still out there literally every time it breaks. I mean, this guy is one of surfing's most underground s of all time Grant Washburn. And I, I had him on my podcast and was, um, asking him about like, what do you, you know, what tips do you have?

And he said, uh, Maverick's is a wave that you gotta cut off at the knees. And I was like, what do you mean by that? He's like, it's a slab. So you can't be on top of the wave when you're, when you are dropping in, you actually have to, like, you wanna be taking off on that wave, like you're cutting it off at the knees.

Like taking, if, if Maverick's is a giant, you wanna be dropping in and the knees of that giant and it'll look like you're taking off from the top of it. But that was a really big unlock for me, surfing that wave, because how you fall out there is you, you are not paddling hard enough and you think that you're in the right spot, but really you're on top of the lip and then you're coming down with the lip, right?

You need to be lower on a big wave than you think you are, um, to actually make that drop. So that changed where I was looking when I was paddling for waves. Now, if I'm, if I'm paddling, if down the face. The 20, 30 foot wave, I'm looking at the bottom of that wave. So directly in my line of sight, I'm, I'm looking at the trough saying I'm going to get there, like I'm sprint paddling to the bottom of the wave on camera.

Then it looks like you're on the top of the wave because that water's sucking up so fast. But if you're not really putting all of your energy down the face, you're gonna be farked. And there was a whole season where I was just, I was going, I was just, um, poking my nose on like every wave. It was a, I had the wrong board and I was not thinking about that directly.

And it was like, holy shit, am I one of those wipe out guys? Like, am I like one of those? I was like, I was, and it was fucking with me. I was like, I. I don't feel like I'm a kook. Like there are, there are kooks that surf mavericks who are really just not good surfers, and they yard sail on most waves. They go on and, and shouldn't be out there, but they, whatever, they're gladiators.

Like, I'm not gonna tell 'em not to do it. Um, but it's not well respected. Like you're falling on every wave. Something's something should change. You shouldn't be celebrating all of your fucking wipe outs on big waves. Like it's dangerous. It's putting other people in danger. Like you should have a, you should have a pretty good batting average if you're gonna be doing this consistently.

So there's this whole season where I was like. Dude, what is wrong with it? Like, I just keep falling. And part of the reason was that I, I was on a board that had two beaked of a nose, so it was poking down on the convex of the wave. But also I was just, I was just focusing on the wrong things. Like I just, I was not looking in the right spot.

And it, you know, surfing bigger waves is on the face of it very simple because you are just going straight essentially, or maybe doing a big bottom turn. Um, and you can get lucky, you know, a very average surfer can paddle into it, a huge wave. But for the guys that are really good at it, , there's a, there's a delicate dance and there's so many details that are, that they're taking into account that you are, that you're just not seeing.

And it's a, a very, , high performance sport, , under the hood.

Michael Frampton: . Did any of those realizations at mavericks inform your small wave surfing?

Kyle Thiermann: Hmm, good question. Yeah, I mean, I love talking about small wave surfing because that's what I do all the time and, and people don't really ask me about it, you know, I'm like, well, you get like a dozen sessions a year out in big waves. But the reality is like, I'm just a surfer and I enjoy surfing bigger waves.

But, uh, yeah, and small wave surfing is, is just as much of a love for me. , The, the shift happened for me was starting to take notes on my sessions, , and I got this idea from Kai Lenny. He apparently has a notebook and he will jot down notes after all of his. His big wave sessions to try and improve on the last thing that he did.

So it was a season, uh, 2021 was arguably the best season ever at Mavericks. Uh, it was just day after day after day of really clean waves. Uh, it was the season that Peter, Mel got his historic barrel out there, and I started taking notes on every session. I, I started noticing that you can sit a little deeper and a little further inside.

A lot of people sit, I think, too far out and on the shoulder and just playing different games, going out with more of a strategy and then coming in, whether or not it worked, I would write down notes, um, and, you know, going into the details, right? And then coming out with more of a specific plan. , And then I took that approach to small wave surfing.

Now, I'm, I'm not gonna lie and say that I write notes on every small wave session, but, . I found that if I would just go out and, and, and think about one thing, , so for me it was like, okay, I'm gonna try and do less turns on a wave, but not do the, the double bottom turn pump that I so, so horrifically still, uh, have adopted.

, I would improve, you know, and I could take that as a win if I would just go out and focus on one thing and then jot down those notes. It felt like it was giving me a stepping stone to improve as a surfer. , I think that that was probably the biggest habit I adopted, that started from big wave surfing that I now apply to small waves.

, Yeah, I, I'll I'll let you know if I think of any others, but just the note taking, uh, is something that I've, I've applied across the board.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Which is reflecting, you are just reflecting on the, on what happened. Totally.

Kyle Thiermann: And that's a, you know, this is a real, um, big aspect of, of learning generally.

There's, there's a huge amount of science around how we don't learn by doing. We learn by doing, then reflecting on doing, on doing. Um, neuroscientists have actually studied that the efficacy in, in learning a new language or, or any skill is just hugely ramped up by doing the thing. And then that night, writing down what you did and then having a good night of sleep.

This is Matt Walker who wrote, uh, why We Sleep, really talks about sleep as a, as a superpower. And if you can reflect on what you did that day through a little five minute journal sesh, then go to sleep. Uh, it's a superpower. Right. And, and the problem with, I think one of the biggest problems with smartphones is that we.

Cut off this potential for learning because right after we go surf, do a workout, even if it takes two minutes to just reflect on it, all of a sudden we're back on our phones looking at social media, looking at text, and we're not actually integrating what it is that we just did into an embodied skill.

Michael Frampton: Yes, you're right. Smartphones have kind of robbed us from that. 'cause I grew up before smartphones and af after a surf, you, you just sort of sit and watch the ocean and drink some water. And I think there's an element of self-reflection and, and or talking about the session with your friends rather than just checking messages and onto the next thing.

Kyle Thiermann: Boredom, man. Boredom is, uh, is one of the most powerful emotions we gotta bring back boredom in our culture if we want to, if we wanna move forward.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Like boredom forces a reflection of the details, perhaps.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I mean, it just gives, you know, there's, , these different kinds of consciousnesses, right?

That, uh, it's been talked about by Michael Pollan, the writer who, , who wrote, uh, how to Change Your Mind book about psychedelics. And the, the different consciousnesses that he talks about are spotlight consciousness and lantern consciousness. So Spotlight is, I'm focused, I am, , on a wave directing where these thoughts are going.

Fully engaged. Lantern consciousness is that soft eyed reflection looking out at the waves, just chilling. . Maybe you see connections, right? That's where metaphor comes in. Lantern consciousness. Like, oh yeah, this is kind of like that, which is kinda like this. And both are really important for the human brain to be engaged in on a daily basis.

, Our society is really set up for spotlight consciousness, just that highly caffeinated, white knuckling forward, and we don't, um, really give the value of lantern consciousness that it deserves. Um, you know, that's why, you know, driving is so nice for people, right? You just get to chill out and then you come up with bigger ideas with lantern consciousness, right?

You're like, oh yeah, I should start that business. Or maybe this relationship isn't right for me, or, oh, you know what? I'm gonna marry that girl. Like you have big aha moments with lantern consciousness. So, um, it's, it's something that I think like exercise. We should try and make more room for.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that lanin consciousness only sort of comes about with calmness.

You have to be calm and relaxed, get rid of that tunnel vision and be aware of everything. And also, you mentioned driving. I mean, the only, the only way that you can have that lanin consciousness when you're driving is because you have previously had spotlight consciousness on driving and you've learnt to see the details and the surface of the road through concentration and purposely having to do it where you're learning to drive.

Right,

Kyle Thiermann: right, right. Yeah.

Michael Frampton: And then that, and then that becomes a, a bit of a habit and then. You go and teach someone else how to drive and you're like, oh, now I sort of take for granted how good I am at reading the road.

Kyle Thiermann: Totally, totally. Yeah. Just, I mean, and, and Tom Carroll probably takes for granted just all of the micro details he's seeing in a wave, you know, that, that you or I might need to focus on still.

Right? Uh, there's, um, there's, you might know about this already, but I'll, I'll say it to anyone who's interested. It's, there's these various levels of learning that people talk about, and the first level is unconscious incompetence. So let's take this to surfing. Unconscious incompetence is the kook who doesn't even know he's a kook.

Like it's so oblivious to surroundings that has, that he has no idea how bad he even is or, or what a danger he's causing to the lineup. Conscious in incompetence is when this person actually realizes. How bad they are, and that's a step above unconsciousness. We're like, wow, I suck and I'm good enough to know how bad I suck.

The next step is conscious competence where all of a sudden this person's been serving for a number of years. They know how to do it, they're getting better at doing it, but they need to think about the act on the water. And I would say that's where I am with my, my surfing. And very rarely am I in, in this the next stage, which is unconscious competence, where you don't even need to think about what you're doing and you can, uh, do it.

Most of us are to that place when it comes to driving because we've driven for thousands and thousands of hours through our life. Like most of us are unconsciously competent at driving. But you can take those various spheres of learning, , and extra extrapolate 'em out to anything. It is pretty, , pretty fun to think about.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. I guess with maybe with surfing, it's like if every time you drove. The road was different and treacherous and you would kind of be, there's sharks

Kyle Thiermann: on the road.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. You'd kind of be forced to be not quite so relaxed. And that's kind of, that, that's what makes surfing so unique and fun is it, is is always so, so different.

But there are always details you can, you can focus in on. Um, I wanna segue into table tennis. Ooh, I'm ready for this. So I was listening to you interview Derek Sivers and you talked about your little secret, uh, table tennis tutelage.

Kyle Thiermann: Yes. And you

Michael Frampton: know, Derek Ss lives

Kyle Thiermann: in New Zealand now. Yes, he does. In Wellington.

Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's amazing. Derek Sivers was, uh, my top podcast guest that I wanted to interview when I started my show. Eight years ago.

Michael Frampton: Yep.

Kyle Thiermann: And I finally got him. It was a really, really special chance to, to get to sit down with him. And he was just everything I, I hoped he would be in more, you know, when you, when you get a hero on the show, part of you is afraid that there'll be an asshole.

And I was very pleasantly surprised at what a, a humble and brilliant guy Derek Sives was. Who, people who don't know. He's a, um, an entrepreneur and, and philosopher has written a number of brilliant books.

Michael Frampton: Yes. Yeah. I urge you to go and check out Kyle's interview of Derek and, uh, that will, that will give you a, a taste into Derek's world and his book.

Oh, what's it called? How to Have Anything or Anything You Want, anything You Want. Great book. What a cool book. Just not just the concept and. What the content of the book, but just the way it's written.

Kyle Thiermann: Oh my gosh. It's so good. Yeah. Uh, hell yes or no is another one, which basically means you should the answer to things.

The answer to dec your decision making process should either be a hell yes or a no. Do you wanna go do this thing Hell yes or no? And, and so often we kind of make decisions with this. Yeah, okay. Maybe, but I use that, uh, framework pretty often in my life. But yes, table tennis, uh, do you want me to tell you the story?

Yes, please. Okay. So in Santa Cruz where I grew up, , there is, or at least there was for years, a table tennis tournament. . At the end of, of the Cold Water Classic, which is the, the WQS contest that would come to town every year and all the, the big pros would, uh, would come to town and, , I fancy myself are pretty good table, table tennis player as do most people, right.

We all, we all think we're pretty good, but, but my friends and I were, were vicious. , And at the end of the cold water classic Ryan Buell, who, who later started Buell Wetsuits, would do a tournament at his house and like all the best surfers would come. Luke Rockhold, who is this UUFC fighter from Santa Cruz, was a really good table tennis player as well.

He would come, I think the win the winner of the tournament got a hundred dollars in a bag of weed. Like it was just epic, but like highly competitive. Right. And I, um, met Luke in the semifinals of the tournament one year. And he beat the shit out of me. I mean, this guy's just an incredible athlete with like a six four wingspan.

And I was so pissed off that I went home that night and Googled table tennis coaches. And it turns out in Santa Cruz there's this place, it's like in this rec room beside this baseball field, and there are table tennis coaches and players that go down there Tuesday and Thursday night. So I show up at this like underground rec hall.

There's 12 ping pong tables laid out. There's people with like sweat bands, short shorts, Nike shoes, a whole bag. Like people won't just bring one paddle, they'll bring a bunch of paddles and the everyone's sweating. It's, this is a like nearly a full contact sport the way these guys are playing. And I went up to one of the coaches and I said, will you teach me your ways?

And he said, I will teach you my ways. So I went in there every Tuesday and Thursday for the next year and I didn't tell anyone that I was going there. There are a few, you know, let's just say that I thought I was consciously competent in ping pong when I went in there and very quickly realized that I was still in basically unconscious competence.

Like in comparison to legitimate table tennis players. There are just layers to the game. You know, it's like youth being like a local average, good surfer and then having fanning paddle out and you're just like, wow. He goes way faster than any of us. We had no idea. I mean, these guys are on their toes.

They, there's just so much strategy involved in essentially tr you know, what they're trying to do is get, get their opponent on their heels because the second you can get your opponent on their heels instead of on their toes, you have them. And the spins off these balls are just going so fast that the further the, the more velocity these spins pick up, the harder it is to, um, to get them.

I mean there was this one dude, he was probably like six, six black dude from Trinidad who was like the champion. Oh my God. I mean, he was always on the last table because the, the better you got, like you get, you would get to like meet the, the next best guy. I never made it to even like play him once, but I trained and I got better and I went to ES tournament the next year and smoked the competition.

Oh, that's cool. And it was. So fun to not tell anyone about this thing I was getting better at. Hmm. That's the real lesson for me, and it's something that I pretty often will, um, will do now. I mean, I've been working on this book. One last question before you go. For the last three years and really have not told many people that I was doing it, and the reason for that, you know, it's funny, funny you should mention Derek s Siver because he, he does a TED Talk on how you should not talk about your goals.

The reason for this being that, the moment I tell you that I'm writing a book, let's say I, I just came up with the idea and I'm like, Hey, I'm writing this book, and you say, oh, congrats man, that sounds so awesome. That gives me a little ping of dopamine before I've even done any work. So it makes you feel like you're further along on your journey than you actually are.

So. To, to keep goals tight to your chest, uh, until they're very far along, um, is something that I learned from ping pong and I still do to this day.

Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah. You mentioned already that, I mean, there's such a difference when you, you think you're a good surfer, or you think that the local ripper at your local break is an amazing surfer, and then a pro comes out and they're surfing.

Sometimes it literally feels like they're surfing three times faster than anyone else, to the point where it makes no sense and you think, well, they're not even surfing. They're, they're, they're doing something else. That's what it's like when you see pros play table tennis compared to your mate who kicks your ass all the time.

The, this, the ball goes so much faster. They stand so much further back from the Yeah, it's, it's, it looks like a different sport, so yeah. Going through that journey of diving into that world of table tennis and you obviously improved, did it teach you anything? Did you learn any deep philosophical lessons about that table tennis journey that affected you at the rest of your life and in, in particular surfing?

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I, I, um, I will say, you know, a, a, a couple things. I think first that, , it's really healthy as an athlete to cross train in other sports, , and sports that, you know, surfing is a hand, it's, you know, it's, it's very like leg eye coordination, right? And knowing where you want to go on that wave is often, dependent on where you're looking.

, Like you gotta look at the part of the lip that you want to hit. , And I think that you, you can develop some really bad habits if you're only surfing and, and, and lessons can come in from other sports. So, I mean, with table tennis, , being crouched, low hand eye coordination, , and really just, just being not very good at something, like being kind of new to it, I think is very healthy for the ego.

My least favorite people are the pretty good surfers who never leave their home break and are just grumpy old fucks who don't try anything new in life. And it's just, they're so comfortable and so certain in what they do, and they're not really like pushing it. They're just doing the same thing over and over, and they're pissed off and they're grouchy about the crowd.

And we all have these people in our hometowns, and to them I just say like, man, pick up a new sport and try it. Because that feeling of newness and wonder and humility does bleed through to the sport that you know very well. , So I always really, I, I, you know, they say in athletics like, you should be doing your sport a third of the time with people who are worse than you a third of the time with people who are better than you.

And a third of the time with people who are you at your same level? That's what's gonna lead to the, the most improvement. And I think you can take that concept out to other sports where all of a sudden you're the lowest on the totem pole and you remember what it's like to suck again, super healthy.

Michael Frampton: Hmm.

Yeah. What's the difference in the way you, let's say, if you remember the first time you, , entered this table tennis hall, to then maybe the last time just before you went and, uh, and, and played the competition. Did, did you see the ball differently? Like, did you start seeing the way it spins? Like did you, did your eyes learn Oh yeah.

To move faster?

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Well, you pick up, um, you pick up tells from your opponent, you know, so for example, if a, what a lot of people will do who are just average table tennis players is they'll hit the ball and then they'll keep the paddle backhand waiting for the next. Shot. And if I see that you are continuing to hold it backhand, I'm gonna hit to your forehand or vice versa.

Really good table tennis players will hit it and then they'll bring the paddle straight to the center so they're then ready to go backhand or forehand and I don't know then where they're gonna go. Right? And, and a lot of them, what I'm trying to do is hit it to a place where it's gonna be awkward for them to return, but the second I see that your, um, arm is, is you're just wide open on the forehand.

Like, oh, I'm gonna hit it there every time. So you just start to, to notice more details of your opponent. , And I would've seen none of that had this coach not taught me. , I, I also, you know, I think this is just a constant struggle of mine, , but I expect a lot of myself. And if I'm not good at a new thing, pretty immediately I, I get angry.

Like I've always been this way. Like I'm, I'm competitive. I think I should be good at stuff. , And when I'm not, it, it, there's a period of time where, you know, when I was younger I would just, I was a little shit. Like I would throw tantrums when I couldn't learn something new. And, and it was, there was a huge amount of, um, you know, the flip side of expecting a lot of yourself is that there's self-loathing as well.

Like, it, you, you flip between grandiosity and, and believing in yourself and believing that you can do great things. And then you flip to, I'm the worst ever. I suck. I'm, there's no value that I can bring. And it's just both, both of these are delusions, right? Like none of us, it's, it's never as good as we think it is, and it's never as bad as we think it is.

But that is a psychology that I don't think my parents gave me. I don't think I learned it for a minute. I think I was just born with that fucking fire. And it has allowed me to progress really quickly because I will just put my head down and train in secret for a year straight to, to win a stupid bing pong tournament.

But there's a lot of, um, just like anger and pain that can come from that. I mean, I, I've never told anyone this, but I remember, I remember going to this ping pong , hall one night and getting my ass kicked so bad that I got back in my car. Started crying, like literally I was alone sitting in my driver's seat and just started crying.

And, and it wasn't that like, oh, these guys beat me. It was this idea like, I fucking suck. Like I'm so worthless. I'm such a piece of shit. Like just that hard voice that has, has been with me my whole life. Like, it just comes, comes in when I'm learning a new thing and don't have the competence to do it yet.

, But that same thing is also, it can be an engine, right? Like it goes from that to like, I'll fucking see you next week. Let's do this. Like, you know, and that's the engine that I think has allowed me to get pretty good at surfing bigger waves, right? There is a lot of that. You see a lot of real, of good big wave surfers who are.

Pretty dark, dark humans. Like they have that, that fuck you attitude like that, you know, it's, it's intense, you know, and they need that attitude to, to match the intensity of the ocean on those days. Um, and I love them, you know, I love them. Like one of my favorite people in the world is Jamie Mitchell, who, you know, he is won the 10 Paddle World Championships.

He's an excellent big wave surfer. And like, I just, I'm like, I fucking see you brother. Like we are just intense dudes. Like we have that, that fucking fire. , And you know, for me, a lot of what I, and I think, you know, Jamie would say this too, he's very open about, about that. And we've had good conversations.

Like to learn how to hold the knife and, and put a handle on the knife is, has been my work. Like to, to be able to know that you have this sharp edge, but you don't need to constantly be self-flagellating. , That, that's my, you know, life. That's, that's been my life path and my, and my lesson. I think the older I get, the better I am at just talking, speaking kindly to myself as I'm learning a new thing.

, Just being a bit more at cruising altitude and, and learning that, okay, that voice is probably never gonna go away, but there are a lot of tools I can learn to not spiral as low when I'm on that process.

Michael Frampton: It's fueling, that's the fire. Right. And you gotta learn to channel it, I guess.

Yeah, I think so.

Kyle Thiermann: I mean, I don't, I, I think that. Anyone who, who does really great things, has a bit of a fire in them. And if you don't see it, it's, it's probably because they've just gotten good at hiding their ambition.

Speaker 3: Hmm. Um,

Kyle Thiermann: but it's there. It's there. And, and I, I li I'm happy to talk about it. 'cause I think it's just, it's very common for us, you know, to, to feel that like, ugh, like I, I don't like losing, like, I want to get better.

I want to improve. , But there's a, a certain amount of that that can also destroy you, you know? And, and, and I don't want to live a life where I'm not feeling the joy of the moment, the joy of surfing. Like I love surfing. It's a beautiful life. I'm, I'm really grateful for all that I get to. Experience.

Like, it's just, it's such a, I feel so lucky to have been born into a place where I started surfing. , My whole community, you know, my friends, they're surfers. It's, it's such a, a wonderful, um, thing to get to travel around the world, you know, have friends like you. I'm like, oh, if I go to New Zealand, I'm gonna go see you over there.

And in South Africa and Mexico, like, that's not a normal thing that most people get to, you know, enjoy and experience. Like we have a really beautiful group, a community. And, and to constantly be lost in my own neuroses about how good or not good I am, like, man, you're just missing the fucking point. And you're gonna get to the end of your life and think, wow, I, I was not focusing on the right thing.

So it is getting better. And I do a lot, , like noticing the details to get outta my own way and just, you know, enjoy the session. Smell the flowers.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. It's on the seaweed. Noticing the details is something you've said a couple of times with the table tennis thing. You like, you're noticing the way that your opponent is holding the bat, and that informs your decision of what, so it's like slowing time down and focusing on the details is what allowed you to get better at table tennis.

Kyle Thiermann: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean,

Michael Frampton: make, make smaller circles.

Kyle Thiermann: Right?

Michael Frampton: And then when you sat down to interview your father, I mean, that's kind of what you did. You slowed down and you focused in on the details of him.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, uh, man, we're, we're, we're stretching this metaphor, metaphor all the way across life.

But yes, I, I just came out with my first book, one last question before you go. It's, uh, a book about how and why to interview your parents before they die. Uh, and, and you know, the, the punchline of it is that. You know, your parents are just people, um, who have had lives long before you were born. And sitting down, stepping outta the role of child and into the role of journalist of interviewer can allow them to really take the floor and tell a few of these great stories before it's too late.

Um, you know, if they're surfers. I'm, I'm doing a, a project with Surfer Magazine right now where we get surfers to ask their parents who are also surfers about like some of these classic sessions. Worst Wipe Out Best Barrel Your life. How has surf culture changed since you were. Younger. Um, a a lot of this stuff we just don't know about our parents 'cause we've never taken the time to ask.

So the book is, you know, it's a how to manual on this is how you conduct a suc a successful interview. And it's also a memoir, uh, that includes, um, my mom, my dad, my stepdad, you know, a number of conflicts that we went through. But, um, really finding specific questions is one pathway to get great stories out of someone.

Right? So, a, you know, what are you, you know, if you're asking what's the meaning of life to your parent, they're probably not gonna give you a great answer. But if you ask, tell me about that classic day in 1973 at Honolulu Bay, uh, when it was just you and two buddies out and they tell that great story, um, it's gonna be gold.

You know, you're, you're gonna walk away with some digital family heirlooms that, uh. You'll be happy about. It's a fun thing. It takes about an hour to do, even on the smallest scale, right? You could just bust out your phone on the way to go surfing or, or at ho on the holiday with your parent and, uh, ask 'em some questions.

And it can lead to some very unexpected places that can feel oddly psychedelic, um, because it can recontextualize them in your mind. And, and it's just a, you know, and at the end of the day, it's a nice thing to do for them. 'cause I think a lot of parents believe and, and think that their par that their kids don't have much of an interest in them.

So it's a, you know, for me that was an unexpected benefit of this, just how much my parents enjoyed being able to tell the stories of their lives.

Michael Frampton: Why did you want to interview your father for your podcast in the first place? How did that come about?

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, I, it was COVID and I was just, uh, it was COVID and I was scared he was gonna die.

You know, we were all really afraid, I think, during COVID, like, whoa, what is this pandemic? Um, how is it gonna affect us, the elderly? And I was forced to reckon with the fact that he wasn't gonna be around forever. So I decided to have him on my podcast. He told some, some epic stories, you know, he's this old documentary filmmaker who goes to the Santa Cruz flea market every weekend and Haggles, and, you know, owns only secondhand gear that he glues together.

He has a famous line where he says, you can fix anything with glue duct tape, or a hammer. You know, like, that's his, his wife motto. He's probably gonna put it on his grave. But I, uh. I then released the show and a lot of people reached out. They were like, Hey, I want to interview my own parents. This seems like a fun thing to do.

I've done over 400 episodes on my show and was like, well, you know what? There, as you know, Michael, like, there's a skill to this and you do improve your interviewing craft. So I decided that it could be a, um, it could be a book. At first, the first draft was very like, how to manual B, B, B. And then I gave it to some writers that I really respect and they're like, man, you gotta be more personal with this.

You need to really let me know what it did for you. This is, yeah, it can be a cool thing, but it can also be intense to sit down with your parents face to face. And a lot of those, you know, we, we so often will, will build resentment, uh, towards our parents and they'll build resentment towards us. And there's this empathy wall that.

Grows between us. , And that's, it's so common and it's so painful that the idea of sitting across from mom and dad and really looking them in the eye and asking them questions about their life can feel terrifying. Um, and you know, my, my story is that growing up I had a very close relationship with my mom.

She fell prey to a number of conspiracy theories that fractured. Our relationship in various ways, because we no longer saw the same world, right? We, we today still believe very different things about, about the world. Maybe your parents aren't conspiracy theorists, but maybe you disagree with them about politics or parenting style or just how they see you.

You know, that it's very common for us to have these ideological fractures. Questions are a way to open that up and, and take a step closer. You know, it's like there is this empathy drug, right, called questions. , But, but it's not a drug, it's a chair and a microphone. , So I found that after taking this year of, of interviewing my parents multiple times, it recontextualized them in my mind.

It just added color to, wow. Who was my mom in college. She went to Berkeley during the 1960s when protests were happening, and the psychedelic revolution was fully in vogue. And wow. My dad, he was a, he's traveled the world as a documentary filmmaker. He, he was a magician in high school, paid his way through high school doing magic shows, you know, with tuxedo and top hat, like my stepdad, who, who who you know, has spent the last 20 years pushing conspiracy theory, documentaries onto the world like it.

I mean, that, I was angry about that. And yet I didn't wanna lose that relationship. There's, we only have one family, and I, I believe that as adult children, it's kind of on us to take that step forward. Um, we are more well equipped than our parents if we can, you know, and I'm not saying that everyone should interview their parents.

I'm not saying it's for everyone. You know, some people, the best course of action is to know, to go no contact. I don't know your parents, but I will say that if it feels possible to open up that crack, do it. You, you really won't regret it. And, and if anything, you're just going to deepen your shades of who these people are.

, And it's, man, I mean, it, it's being on the other side of it now, you know, books out. A lot of people are interviewing their parents. Like, I'm really happy I took a personal approach to this story. , You know, it really is, it's a story about having a mom, losing her to conspiracy theories and using the interview process to get her back.

But I, I, like, I, I interact with her now and, , I'm not as mad. Like it's a weird. I'm just not, I'm like, wow, I'm, I see you as a person and all of our stumbles and all of our hopes and all of our intents, like, I just have more like empathy for, for what what you are and who you are. And that feels fucking good, man.

Like, it feels really, , like I'm more complete in that relationship. ,

Michael Frampton: Yeah. You under understanding, you understand that? I do.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. And it, and to, it's like that, and that made the whole book worth it for me. It's like, man, it's success. All the, all the success is secondary to that feeling that I, that I get, you know, like I, and same with my dad, you know, and we all, we all, uh, it's around the holidays, right?

And how often do we go home? Turn into petulant little teenagers again, right? Because we're like, oh my God, I can't believe you always do this. You're so annoyed. He goes on and on about this, did it like it's, you know, we regress too and become less mature around our parents. I would always get mad at my dad for, you know, he just goes on these like fricking soapbox tirades about like the world and how it's going to hell in a hand basket and dah.

I'm just like, oh my God. You know, I always would like get mad at him, right? And, and we recently went on a crabbing trip together up in Northern California. , And I found out I was just more chill around him. I was like, man, you're doing your thing. Like, it just a, it, it affected me less and that was a real win for me to be able to get on the other side of it and be like, wow, I, I was able to just be more chill around you.

'cause I see you as more than my dad. I see you as. As this person who I still really enjoy spending time with.

Michael Frampton: Would he articulate anything similar? Like is he aware of the, the change in the relationship dynamics since that process?

Kyle Thiermann: I think he would, yeah. Yeah. I think he would. He, he said, you know, this was a really rocked me when I first interviewed him, but he said, uh, he said, you know, I, I don't think you would've asked me any of these questions if we weren't doing an interview.

You know, we, like, you're not curious about me. You're not, you've never been curious about me. And, and it made me feel really sad because he was right. I've prided myself on being a good question asker for my whole life. And yet I was not using that skill on the people who mattered most to me. Right. And, and I think that I've developed, um, more of a habit since then of asking how he's doing, asking what he's been up to recently.

, The, the quality of question asking should extend beyond. Just a formal interview setting. You know, that's a training session for you. But the real benefit that I hope people get outta the book is to become better question askers generally.

Michael Frampton: Hmm, I I think what you said is not right.

I don't think that, so he, he may be perceived that you weren't interested. I don't think that's true. 'cause you wouldn't have gone to, you wouldn't have made a point of creating all, all you needed was a way to do it and you're like, okay, if we sit down and record it, then that just somehow for some reason, just sitting down in front of a microphone and the conversation being recorded, that creates the space for a different type of conversation, which allows you to push through the fear you had of maybe asking your dad this question.

'cause you might get the response that you had when you, when you asked a question when you were 13 or whatever.

Kyle Thiermann: Right. Or it could be awkward to ask a, you know, so what's, , what failure in life, in early life do you now see as a success? Right? Like, that could be an awkward question to ask in the context of a regular conversation, but it's a great question to ask during an interview.

Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I mean, you, you could be right. I mean, I think that the way he felt was that his kids were, were not interested in him. And the way I felt was there's no, or there's, it's harder to really go deep into the stories of someone's life when you're not in a formal interview. Setting. So I, yeah, it, it really did just take that podcast for us to take that next level in.

And, , an interview is similar to a conversation, but there are a few key differences. You know, one is that you're really driving it as the interviewer, you're deciding where, where it is that we want to go next. You don't need to necessarily respond to what he's, to what your interview is. E is saying you can just move on to a new subject.

, You know, it's, it's similar to conversation, but there are a few key differences that it can allow the person you're sitting down with to, to go deeper.

Michael Frampton: Well, it changes the dynamic. You are, you are the interviewer of another human rather than the son of someone, which,

Kyle Thiermann: exactly.

Michael Frampton: It's so hard to, I, I can see why he might think that.

Oh, I can see why any parent might think, oh, my kids aren't really that interested. Well. You are their parent, they're always gonna see you as a parent unless you break that mold. And that's what I really like about what you've done. And I, I bought, I bought my parents. There's a book called, uh, I Want to Mom, I want to Know Your Story.

Yeah. I bought, I bought one of those books from my parents years ago, and I don't think they ever opened it. And they certainly didn't fill it in. Yeah, totally.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah. I, I bless their hearts to everyone who gets that book. I mean, it's the, the issue that, and, and, and I mean, I, look, I, I hope people enjoy that book and they get value out of it.

The issue that I see, , is that you're asking your parents to write down the stories of their lives, which is expecting them to be a great writers who can fill it in with vivid detail. , And b, expecting that that chicken scratch is gonna be meaningful to you later. , For me the, the value of audio and is really the, the, the bullseye here.

, You know, my grandmother, um, she was a hundred years old. She passed away recently, and my mom, the day after she died, realized that one of the only recordings that she had of her, her own mother's voice was a, a happy birthday voicemail that she had left her. Like that was one of the few pieces of evidence of the, the tone and resonance of this woman's voice that had ever actually been saved and recorded.

Um, and you know, when it comes to my own parents, like it's not just about what it is that they said. It's not just about the stories of their lies, it's how they sounded, you know, voice is. Voice is so different than just words on a page. , So if you can, yeah. I mean, by all means, have them fill out the stories on, on a piece of paper, but really, you know, pull out your phone, use the voice memos app, or get pro microphones and, and get them to tell the stories into a microphone, because that's what, um, there's just a, a, a, a resonance and warmth that I think can come from audio.

Michael Frampton: Do you think that those com the con, let's say I interview my mom and I record it now, she certainly wouldn't be happy with me, , posting that on the podcast, but she might be open to me sharing it with my siblings and maybe a cousin. Is that something that you recommend, like sharing the interview or is it a personal thing?

Yeah.

Kyle Thiermann: Well, we live in a time where it's easier than ever to record. And these digital fairly air digital family heirlooms can be passed down through the generations. There's never been a time in history where it's as easy to record a piece of media and potentially have a go and exist on for 10,000 years.

You know, it's pretty amazing that we could spend an hour and it could be focused purely on your family history. What do you know about my great-grandfather? Um, where did we come from? Just to be the bearer of that, , story and then share that with your family is one way to go about the interview. Just really as a, a product of posterity, , I think it's really important to ask the whoever it is that you're interviewing permission, Hey, can I share this publicly?

Can I share it with the family? But if they do, , save those recordings, make sure other people know where those recordings are. . You know, write along with all your passwords to your accounts and just take the time to do it. You know, it's, it's, it's a little bit like writing a will, you know, it's something like people don't want to take the time to do, but then when you don't, it can really screw things up.

And there's a lot of unknowns that are just left to the rest of the family. , And I don't wanna make it seem that it's sound like it's a, a hard thing to do, or just sad. Like it can be a, a ton of fun to get your parents' stories as well. , But the first thing I recommend doing in the book is just to set the date and the rest will follow.

I, my mom, , is really good about this actually. She broke her hip a number of years ago and her left hip and femur. And, and right after she realized that she really did not have her things in order. So she created this something called a gravity pack, which was like passwords to her accounts, her will, uh, music that touched her photographs from her life.

. Family history and then also, , these audio recordings will go in there. So it's, she's very organized and, , ha has done this work that is gonna save her kids quite a lot of, uh, pain later on

Michael Frampton: and have

Kyle Thiermann: Precious, my dad, he's, my dad's more of a, he's more of a flea market junk guy, and we're gonna have a lot to deal with after he dies.

But, , you know, bless his heart, we'll do it.

Michael Frampton: No, it's, it's a really cool concept, man, and it's, it's such a cool, such a cool idea for a book and obviously you want to inspire other people to do it and give them guidelines on how to do it. You've obviously thought about this a lot, do you have a framework or a method perhaps, or some ideas in which ways , how people can come up with original questions?

Kyle Thiermann: Sure. Absolutely. And I really recommend that people take the time to come up with original questions. Every chapter in One last question before you go is a question, say, every chapter title is a question. There's bonus questions at the end, but I also say that the best questions are gonna be original to your parents' lives.

They're not gonna be general, you know, what's your favorite band? Or, you know, who, who is your high school crut? Like, it, it should be specific to what made you want to take that trip to Indonesia when you were 19. Tell me about that moment. So,, if you're having a question asking session. I recommend breaking your parents' lives up into four chunks.

So this could be childhood, early adult, , late adult, and you know, where they are now. , Just breaking it up into, , you know, 15 year chunks. And then try and write five questions under each of those chunks, right? Get into the details, break it into smaller circles. Um, and if you'd spend 20 minutes breaking your parents' lives into four chunks, asking specifics about what was going on at each of those moments, , you will come up with a bunch of questions.

Another thing that I recommend when flexing this muscle is once your parents agree to the interview, get them to send you photographs from their lives, and then you can use those photographs as prompts to get them to tell stories. Ultimately, what you want out of your, your mom or dad is to. Get them to tell stories and stories will come from a photograph.

You can literally slide it across the table and say, tell me the story of this photograph. , We often speak in generalities. , And that doesn't do much for, for good audio. What you want are specific stories where they're bringing you into that situation. , So photographs breaking and then breaking your, , parents' lives into four chunks are two great tips.

And then the third is, , get them to talk about their decision making process. So, , it's not just what college did you go to? It's like, what made you want to go to that school? What, why, what? And, and you're getting now into their head and they're like, well, you know, I wanted to go here, but I decided to go here 'cause I had this crush on this guy.

And boom, all of a sudden you're in a story. . This is what Charles duh Higg the author of, , a number of books like The Power of Habit Super Communicators, called Deep Questions. Don't Just Ask about the Facts of Their Lives. Ask how they feel about their lives. And if you do that, , you will conduct a pretty good interview.

, Those are the tips.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. You gotta get into the details.

Kyle Thiermann: Yes. Bam.

Michael Frampton: The ever finer details. . Well, Kyle, thank you so much for your time. The book is called one last question before you Go.

Kyle Thiermann: When does it come out? It is out right now.

Michael Frampton: It is available on Amazon, I'm assuming?

Yes, it is. Awesome. Your website is kyle chairman.com.

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, that's probably the best way to find me. And, uh, feel free to reach out if you, uh, if you do end up interviewing your parents, I'd love to hear from any of you listeners out there, how it goes, what you find.

I find that, that, you know, writing a book is just the start of a conversation. It's not the end. Yeah. So I wanna, I'm putting this out in the world, but I am very much looking forward to hearing how it's received and what people do with it.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, I I'm sure you will hear lots. It's pretty cool. And, uh, Kyle also has a, is it nearly, you've done like over 400 episodes of your podcast?

How many now?

Kyle Thiermann: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that we, I, I am at 400 right now. Wow.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. We just did 400. That's, that, that's impressive. So I urge everyone to go and listen to, it's very eclectic. Like there is a lot of surfing stuff in there, but there's also just a lot of life stuff. And, , some really cool interviews, a great podcast to, to cherry pick and dive in.

I especially like the one with Derek Sivers. I'm a big fan of Derek Sz, , as well. He's such a unique, well thought out human and, uh, it's a great interview. , Gosh, Kyle, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. , There will be links to everything, Kyle podcast book stuff in the show notes so you can, you don't have to write this down now, you can go and click, and dive into Kyle's world.

Thank you, Kyle.

Kyle Thiermann: Thank you Michael.

130 How Details Transform Surfing, Self-Talk & Relationships with Kyle Thiermann

The Surf Mastery Podcast: 

For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfe - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

What if the key to unlocking your best surfing isn’t how you ride a wave - but how you read the ocean before you even paddle for it?

Whether you're a seasoned surfer or just stepping up to steeper waves, too many of us overlook the 99% of surfing that happens off the board. In this eye-opening episode, elite surf coach Matt Scorringe shares why ocean knowledge - not tricks or turns - is the hidden edge that separates good surfers from great ones. If you’ve ever felt lost in the lineup, struggled with wave selection, or wondered how top surfers always seem to be in the right spot, this conversation is for you.

• Discover the missing piece in most surf coaching: how reading the ocean gives you faster decision-making, greater confidence, and better waves.

• Learn how to turn crowded lineups into a game of strategy, not frustration, using Matt’s unique “first line of defense” approach.

• Explore how treating the ocean like a playground—not a proving ground - can unlock more joy, progression, and long-term success in your surfing journey.

Hit play now to learn how rethinking your approach to wave reading and lineup dynamics can instantly elevate your surfing experience.

https://www.theartofsurfing.com

Use Discount Code: "surfmastery25" for 25% discount on Matts Academy and Remote coaching program.

Matts Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/mattyscorringe/?hl=en

Transcript:

Michael Frampton: yeah, it is. I actually think that most surf courses miss the mark anyway because 99% of your time when you are surfing is not surfing. You are, you're literally paddling around or sitting there reading the ocean, trying to stay focused on the horizon, trying to decipher you look at this little sliver of ocean.

Are you gonna paddle over there to get the wave off the crowd or are you gonna paddle over there? Do you want that wave? What's the wind doing? How many swells are in the water? Like all that stuff that makes you a great surfer. People, people don't focus on it. So I actually, I actually released a course that's all about how to read waves.

There's nothing

Yeah.

To do with basically what happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet.

Yeah.

Because once you're on to your feet, that's been done to death. And yeah. I wanna segue that into what, in terms of like reading the ocean and reading water, , do you coach people on some of your elites on that sort of stuff?

Do you spend much time on it? What are your thoughts?

Matt Scorringe : Yeah, absolutely. I mean, with regards to like more high performance athletes that I train, you know, there's a clear, difference between those that have, that really do and those that don't. So again, once on feet, both equally fantastic surfers, but one just has a higher level of ocean knowledge and understanding and, and able to read and, you know, you run.

Drill after drill on scenario after scenario and pressure situation after pressure situation and all of that ocean knowledge just, um, you know, means obviously they're gonna read the ocean better, but their confidence is higher and their decision making processes are faster because of the nuances that they're picking up and processing and, and making decisions on to get those waves that go underneath for that wave that didn't look like maybe an opportunity to the other surfer.

Uh, and then if you drop it down to like more of my everyday clientele, uh, and a lot of my online clientele with, you know, the, the academy membership or my remote coaching, um, a massive part of what I try and get them to do is actually film more of them. With, uh, a camera that's like not on wave, just them roaming the ocean and, and looking to catch waves.

So, you know, zoom it out, push record and let it sit there and have your GPS tracker. And it's amazing what learnings come from that, that you can just pick up, um, that you wouldn't otherwise. And yeah, it's a huge, huge pillar that is really overlooked in most coaching scenarios. Uh, and if you've got someone on a one on one lesson for an hour and a half, like there's only so much you can do in that time, right?

Like, hey, this is the day's conditions, this is where the rip is, this is the kind of, you know, the period. And, um, this is kind of where the bank is. , And you can assess what you, you might want to in that moment, but really you're getting such a small snapshot of the, their, their decision making and their, their ocean knowledge.

, So I, I really enjoy having more of a longer. Time with my remote coaching clientele to actually assess that, give them, you know, training drills and strategies and games. I, I call them games to play, and then they can go out and start to do their own assessments of those outcomes. And that's really my ultimate goal is to teach self-assessment.

, And to play with different, different, uh, strategies in the ocean to, to learn, you know, I mean, when we're kids, we learn about the ocean through play. Like we're jumping in the shore break, we're swimming in the rip, we're, you know, boogie boarding along closeouts with the boys and you know, that's where you understand all of those, those things that the ocean, uh, teach you.

Michael Frampton: , Yeah. Most great surfers had that childhood early on where they, yeah, there was no pressure to even stand up on a surfboard. It's just, just messing around in the ocean. Yeah, makes me think of Wingnut. I interviewed Wingnut a few years ago and he didn't start surfing till he was 17, and I thought that that's such a unique case.

Someone's starting surfing so late and becoming so good at it. That didn't make sense to me. I almost didn't believe him. But then he told me he had been body surfing since he was five, and I was like, ah, of course. Yeah, you've got already got the wave, the wave knowledge, the, the way you read water is already there.

That's, that's your fundamental school. You're comfortable in the ocean. 'cause surfing, when you think about it, one, once you're on your feet, it's not actually that hard. I mean, look at, look at someone like OIE who barely even, and John, John too. They barely move their bodies at all, right? Yeah, yeah. Kelly's unique.

He moves his body all over the place. But someone like AKI is just that, that those subtle movements of changes of balance and direction and it's amazing how you technically, you could be really stiff and inflexible. And not move that much and still be a great surfer, but only if you can stand, get to your feet in the right part of the wave on a good wave with, and then have good timing.

And it all essentially comes from reading, reading the ocean and being comfortable in the ocean.

Matt Scorringe : Yeah, no, I, I, I agree. I mean, really when you distill, uh, technical surfing on a wave, and sometimes, you know, I, with the, the profession I'm in and other coaches you are sort of, do people not see how simple this technical piece is that they're missing?

Right. And obviously we have trained eyes, so, , I say that respectfully or lightly, that you're like, it's amazing. People still will look at their own footage and not identify, Hey, your back arm is, you know, really low when you swing through your twist. So if we can get that higher, it's gonna open up your chest rotation.

So there's those things technically. , But they're so much more easier and obvious to really see for anyone. And once you teach them that they can see it themselves and they see it in other surfers., But the ocean is, it's, you know, easy to say to an adult or a late starting client, you need to have had all this experience as a kid, right?

And you haven't, so it's gonna be hard. And, and that's, that's really demotivating for them. So, you know, I try to change it around to, uh, you have to pretend you're a kid again. You have to treat the ocean like a playground, and you need to be, you know, very wasteful and okay with falling and failure in the process of learning how the ocean moves, uh, obviously within a realm of safety and don't sort of paddle out to, um, you know, a, a big reef break and sort of just muck around if it's, it's beyond your sort of capabilities, but at your local, at, at your, your local beach break or just learning an environment.

, It's all about, yeah, in my opinion, having. Like, I've got these strategies I use to teach them how to, you know, understand crowd movement too, and manage, , you know, a, a way to kind of work around that and option A, B, C, D, but also just treat it like a game. So if option a's not working, learn from it, move to B and so on, and be wasteful of that session when it's crowded.

Like, okay, it's crowded anyway, so if I get a couple, that's gonna be a great day. So I might as well have a little trial and error of this strategy. Uh, let's see if this works. I mean, I do it myself all the time, like when I travel and I, I surf as a point a lot or padang when I'm in Bali. , You know, I'm literally going through my strategies and trying, and some days strategy A will just work straight away and I'm, I'm on and I think, oh, how good's this?

Like, you know, I found a little little gap in the, in the, the chaos out here. And then other days, you know, I get to strategy C or D before I'm like, wow, that's. That those other ones really aren't working today. Like there's five or 6, 7, 8, 10, 15 other people playing the same game as me right now. I need, I need to, I need to shift, you know, and I need to try something different.

And sometimes none of them work too, but you know, you, you gotta almost smile and have fun with it in those moments.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's, I mean, that's great advice for anyone starting surfing is just play. Just don't put pressure on yourself to perform at all. It's really important. But you also mentioned crowd stuff, which segues into something else I wanted to discuss, which is etiquette.

Any of those strategies you mentioned,, consider etiquette. What are your thoughts on etiquette? , Have you seen any of the recent, um, social media stuff? I mean, get stabbed at an article recently about kooks and Barley and Surfline did a little thing about being closest to the peak and there's been a, a few Instagram, , influences, you know, chatting about it.

And I interviewed Holly Beck about it, , a couple of weeks ago as well. So what are your thoughts on et.

Matt Scorringe : Well, I mean, at the core of etiquette, that comes down to, , surfing with respect for others. Right? And, and so my thoughts on etiquette is it needs, there needs to be etiquette. , What are the rules?

And, and, and, you know, what, what dictates the right way to do it. , I know it's gonna start with an answer that sounds like top level, , but it is so dependent on situation, , the wave type, the level of the surface. So a lot of the strategies I teach clients, , start with clearly assessment, you know, tools to assess what a pack is doing.

, One of the, one of the more effective ones is I what I call identifying the first line of defense. So I kind of have these sort of analogies that tie into war because when you go out there sometimes it's like you're going into a fight or into war. , And so who are those sort of soldiers, that first line of defense that they're trying to lock down?

The, the peak or the, you know, the, the, the main takeoff spot and how many of them are there, are they working in synergy, you know, like a local spot where they're like clearly clustering together to, to kind of, , surround that, that, that best spot? Or is it a spot like, , you know, being in, or again, maybe deserts where, you know, there's just a lot of people trying their own individual plan in that moment.

And so, you know, allowing these first line of defense people to have that kind of, authority that they want to have out there. , But playing underneath them and, and almost using that against them, , is something that, you know, you can do. And I know it's kind of hard to articulate just over a conversation, but when you have modules and you're sort of showing examples, , I know myself, I use.

At Padang a lot just sitting, you know, slightly under all those sort of main, main key guys. Now clearly if there's another 30 guys, like maybe with the same idea, then that secondary peak gets, gets packed. But, , there's these ways in which you can, you can again try option A, option B, um, but often, you know, just being underneath and, and allowing those other surfers to have that, that, , pecking order that they're trying to, they're trying to have, , you can, you can slot in underneath and, and still get great double ups or, you know, get one that's missed.

Or identifying that this guy's a local, that's an older guy that gets a lot of respect and lots of people are gonna pull back, but he's not got a good paddle. I've had so many waves just. Double checking those guys. And you know, they just don't quite get it when like, sometimes it does, it's like 30 guys have pulled back 'cause they're like, oh, it's, it's such and such, you know, we don't wanna push his section down, but you are just over enough that you are not gonna do that.

And you might be able to squeak in when 30 guys pull back and he just takes off too late or doesn't quite make the drop., So yeah, identifying those, those little gaps is key. , Back to etiquette though, with that personally, , I'm non-confrontational in my approach to surfing. Like, I've never enjoyed an argument.

I've never enjoyed trying to, , paddle up to someone and educate them on the environment unless they're being dangerous. , The worst environments I've found myself in my life have been of recent w with my own sons teaching them to surf. Uh, so being out in lineups like. Ulus when it's only two to three foot high tide and you just have all these uneducated surfers.

Uh, and I don't wanna put a label on level, I'm just uneducated on, on movement and just priority and, you know, just fairness, like, and safety, just, uh, you know, and so you're, you're literally out there with your son. And I've been in the most confrontational arguments of recent, purely when I feel obligated to try and tune someone about how dangerous they're being when not just my kids, but other kids are out in the lineup and, you know, they don't have the, the physical capability or skillset.

, Or knowledge yet to make the right decision. , They're learning, they're trying to get out the way, but maybe they're just not gonna be able to. And yeah, just seeing so much, um, carnage, clearly, uh, it's been really a, a, a challenging journey at times because, you know, you don't see all of that kind of stuff when you surf better breaks with higher level surfers.

, It, it's really gone to the dogs and I, you know, I grew up in that environment once upon a time, but it's so much worse now than it was in were kids. I feel for any learner, adult, you know, female long boarder trying to get amongst that and, and cash their wave, you know, it's just, uh, it's, it's a really toxic environment now.

Those sorts of mainstream breaks,, you know, you can go through a list of Malibu and snappers and, you know, all around the world, right? It's, it's just so many surfers now. So, , yeah. It's, it's, it's a, it's an open-ended question. Well,

Michael Frampton: I think it's on them. Let's use Ulus as an example. It's, it's a high performance wave that gets really good, but it's also somewhat accessible and that's its downfall.

Whereas you can, you can get away with, as long as you're physically able to walk down the stairs and you have the, uh, sometimes it's just pure ignorance to negotiate the keyhole. I've seen some close calls that I just, I just dumbfounded. I remember the first time I surfed Ulus when it was, you know, solid five foot and I was just, I couldn't believe how.

Novice of a surfer had managed to get out there and get in the way of everyone. And I was on edge going, I do not wanna touch the reef. I don't want get in anyone's way. And I'm like, my heart was racing. And there's, there's people out there, there's people whistling in the, that they've caught the, they've gone too far, they're getting dragged around onto the inside.

There's people on the cliff whistling at them. There's people walking up the stairs covered in blood 'cause they've hit the reef. And it's just like, why, why would you go to Atu? Like you, you're an idiot. You should be at a beach break with other learners and learning that. So I think it's a almost a failing some ways in surf culture not to educate these people.

And I get it, you know, your barley tourism is, they want the the people to go there. But at the same time it's like, man, my kid's been surfing for, for five years. He's ready to. Approach somewhere like inside Ulus. But you, you're in the way. You're literally, they, they are the unethical ones with no etiquette.

Yeah. Because they're in the wrong place. And the same thing, you've got surf coaches pushing everyone into Malibu. First point when you know the good surfers that have waited for an hour, they wanna do a couple of cutbacks on the inside. They want, don't want to give way to a soft top. You should be at zoomer learning.

So I think a lot of these, a lot of the stuff. It's coming from these adult learners who just think they're entitled and they don't have to go through the, the process in surfing. It's like, oh no, it's my turn. I've been waiting for a wave. Well, it's not, it's not quite that simple. And I think it comes back to what you said, which is, it's, it's a safety issue really.

You've got so many, yeah, so many amateur surfers getting in people's way. People have to not hit you and then they put themselves in a bad position to get cut on a reef maybe, or essentially you, you're gonna end up hurting yourself or you're a drain on the, on the health system. And it, it's, yeah, it's kind of a mess.

Matt Scorringe : I think it's just, you know, that ignorance is bliss for a lot of them, right? They just don't know what they don't know. And so making their way out at ulu's on high tide and not realizing the tide's on the way out, and they're gonna have reef to deal with on the way in, and, you know, they find themselves in these situations, but, , they're unaware and so.

There's, there's not any fear around it for them at that point. And they, they get out there and they're just all of a sudden in the way, and it has it, and you, you multiply that by 30 or 50 of those people in, in a situation and, and you've got a lot of, , yeah, you've got a lot of potential, you know, trouble that could present itself.

And, and carnage, I mean, and every, any given day, a lot of these spots, there's, there's a lot of, you know, incidences where people are getting hurt and hurt and cut and, um, some, you know, the amount of close calls, you know, would be, would be crazy. , I, I find that it's, you know, without labeling. The countries, there's certainly more high educated countries based on the environment that you grow up in.

Even if you're a late adult starter in a country like Australia that has just a super high surfing iq, uh, and knowledge, you're gonna get tuned really quickly. You're gonna be taught, you know, in in, in either a good way or a bad way, but you're gonna learn a little bit of the understanding of the, the way that, you know, etiquette and, and the world works.

And each break is different and each coastline and so on. But you're gonna have this kind of collectively base level, general theme through most of Australia where yeah, they, they're switched on. And I mean, the amount of unbelievable ocean knowledge wave readers that I've come to meet from Australia, you know, particularly like Hawaii for sure too, that goes without saying with their.

Of course, you know, the, the, the larger swell and the big waves and what they're exposed to, but I'm talking nuances and just, and crappy wound bond slop as well. You know, those eyes that they have for all of that and the gaps in crowds because they grow up in it and then they can do it in a way that, like cheeky maybe, but not completely disrespectful.

, And you know, obviously if you're out snapper, there's everything under the sun in terms of how people are doing it, but the best at doing it become, it becomes an art form of how they operate within a crowd with everyone from learner groms to learner adults, right through to elite, right? And everything in between.

So, , personally like I, I grew up on a, a very highly, um, localized break in New Zealand. Now, when I say localized, it wasn't. By fist. It was localized. It was by village. And so the takeoff zone was very tight. It's, uh, you know, like a, a long, uh, left hand sandbar for anyone listening. , And I know most of the best surfers in New Zealand just don't go surf it and still don't.

, And when they'll come through town and be like, come surf the bar, you know, and they'll be like, oh, we're just gonna go around to the beachy, like hate surfing out there. And. It was more because of the way it got locked down by the elders rather than, you know, um, a pack of younger tough guys sort of dominating it through force.

And so I learned really quick this kind of hierarchy system of respect and, and doing your due, like you had to pay your dues. You had to start down the point, you worked your way up and you know, you had to sit under your outs and you could pick up the double ups. But back then they were all riding like longer boards and weren't knifing double ups into the barrel.

So we grew up as that first generation wanting those waves and we actually were getting the better waves, but they were getting the taller ways that would kind of hit the bank and run. We were getting the like double up aka like tubes and they didn't realize we were on the better ones 'cause it was a generational change of equipment and so on.

But what we learned was, um, yeah, how to, how to work within that environment. How to work your way up. Um. A hundred percent I've, I paddle would've paddled past a lot of people in my time sitting down the point and, you know, that's on my mind. But when I get to the top, I'm not just trying to get the next wave and the next wave and the next wave.

It's like working your way in and waiting your turn. And um, you know, there's days we're all guilty as sins that it's good and, and you get a bit in rhythm and greedy and, and you know, you're kind of aware of you, you, you've, you're getting a few too many. But like at the end of the day, uh, there is a like real clear understanding out there.

And I know a lot of people don't like that, that aren't from there, but what I think they don't like about it is there's not actually anyone kind of telling anyone to, you know, if off or to like get down to point or like just being like, you know, obviously aggressive assholes. I mean, it can happen, can happen.

But most of the time, and what's more frustrating is just this kind of like, yeah, there, there's this kind of collective creating,. An environment that has to be respected. And so what I kind of gleaned from that with my travels was identifying that in other locations and knowing when like, oh, there's a clear and obvious like village of people here that have got a system.

And identifying that and trying to fit into that system. And , I know a lot of your guests have said like, being a good surfer helps like that, that goes without saying. Like, if you can get into the peak eventually and, and get a good wave and you knife it and you get spat out down the line and you do a good turn, , it helps, like, it helps people give you respect.

If you go over the falls three times, you're done right one time, you're probably done. So unfortunately, for those that are listening that are, , maybe not at a, a higher level and they're at a lower level, like you have to really look yourself in the mirror and, and be honest with yourself whether you can surf that way from the top.

And if you've got the skill set to do so and. I'm not saying that doesn't mean you shouldn't go have the right as a human being to go up there and try, but if you don't make it once or twice like you will, you will be done. You know? And that's, I think, fair enough in any sport. Like you only get so many shots at something before, okay.

You know, , you're not, you're not achieving this ultimate goal here of, you know, scoring the goal for, for a basketball team. Like, we're gonna sub you off, you know? And so there is just an understanding of where you might fit into that system. . And just to kind of wrap up my point, I also go to breaks where I can see there is no obvious system and it is a free for all and there is no hierarchy, you know, sort of village kind of operation going on here.

And then it's like, okay, cool, like now we can kind of play a little bit more, , you know, hungrier game here, but still like, where can I slot in and not be an absolute prick? , But you know what, I'm not going to just keep leading these guys pedal past me either. Like I'm gonna play the game. Um, and so, I dunno, I feel like, you know, a lot of my friends that grew up on this wave, we've, we developed an art to particularly a couple of my mates.

They're just so good at getting waves in any lineup, like the most crowded lineups that. Are the exception of a wave like chop or pipeline or, you know, super heavy waves of constant with a clear and obvious gnarly local system. , But all the free for all waves around the world, you know, that just have been kind of overrun by tourism and yeah.

And then I see other really good surfers from different environments have grown up that really struggle 'cause they just had like a more simple, less complex environment to,

Michael Frampton: to learn that in.

Mm.

Yeah. It's a big subject. And that will come, I mean, what you just mentioned there, that comes down to reading, like, like you sitting in a little bit from the pack to catch the double up, the double ups at Padang, you can only do that because if you see a set coming for them, you're gonna have to see it either before them or at the same time as them in order to paddle outta their way.

Right. Mm. In order to order to go back to get the double ups on the inside. They don't, and they don't care if you're getting those waves as long as you stay out of their way, but you get in their way, your little game is over. So you have to be an expert at reading and predicting waves in order to do that.

Therefore, you are a better surfer. So you are moving, I think surf lineups, it is a hierarchy of competence. There is no way around that. There's, I agree. Each surf break has its own, uh, representation of eth uh, of, um, etiquette, let's say at different times of the day, different swells. And when we are entering the water, we cannot, as surfers, we cannot expect there to be one rule of etiquette for every surf break in the world.

It's ridiculous. Yeah. If you, if you go surfing and you feel like everyone else in the water has no etiquette, you are the one in the wrong place. You are out. Go, go surf somewhere else. Go and practice what you're doing somewhere else. Jump on a plane. There are plenty of learner friendly areas in the world now where you can go and take turns and be on soft tops and catch gentle waves.

There's, there's plenty of places to go and learn and practice and, and get your reps in and surfing and that way I think it's ridiculous to go out to ATU and expect to people to be, to have etiquette and, and, and to give you your turn. It's, it is, it is crazy. So it comes back to that whole awareness thing, right?

Not only are you good surfers, not only if you wanna travel, especially, not only do you have to be good at reading the ocean and waves and stuff, you have to be good at reading the crowd and the surf culture of the local environ. A hundred percent. I

Matt Scorringe : think that's a huge piece. Yeah. And just to kind of elaborate on, just as an example, Pang, because I mean, pang's such a perfect wave.

I mean, there's a lot of people that might be listening and think, oh, well that's a very. Common plan B. , I mean, I've had sessions out there. I've sat out there for two hours and had to paddle in and not caught away, you know, so I'm not saying it always works. And I've had sessions where it's, um, being only a handful of locals and maybe a couple of them I know well, and they're like, oh, go this one man, you know, and you, you're up, you, you, you go, you go.

And then I've had times where they've literally paddled past me 15 times and not looked you in the eye. 'cause they don't want to acknowledge you and then have to maybe think about giving you a wave when it's really busy. They're like, right, it's busy, it's pumping panang, I'm locking in with the rest of the local boys.

It's our turn. And you just gotta sit back and respect that. You know, like it's, it's the way it is. Like their waves have been overrun by tourists and it's, it's one of those pumping days and there's. There's 30 guys like me with the same level and, and idea, and then there's 30 guys underneath me or girls with a, a different idea and a different level.

And, and there's all that, you know, and so you've got to, yeah, you've gotta just kind of understand that. Um, and I know I do it, like I, I know when I surf sun breaks that I know it's gonna be, uh, it's gonna be a real game that I'm playing the whole session. I actually don't like going surfing with friends out there.

You know, I like to just strike a couple of waves around Bali. , Sorry, Indo now on my own. Because if I go with even just two mates, you know, I'm not gonna go with a huge pack. I have to consider them in my game of respect. Like if I do my thing and I know they haven't had one for a while. Like my nature is to be like, of course I'm gonna be like, go, go, go.

You know, I'm not, , you know, I can't kind of, at the end of the day be that kind of dog eat dog, but then that mucks you up and they're kind of like, there's three guys between you and them and you've kind, you kind of like, it becomes this thing where like it's actually a solo pursuit is easier in an environment that it's not your environment like you are, you're in someone else's environment or one of those free for all waves and like there are waves around, , the world that has no.

Massive true. Like it's, let's say local village law, but there's certainly the couple of locals, handful locals. Um, there's certainly those that have traveled there since 1970 something and camp there all the time. So there's still some system, you know, even though there's maybe no true locals or there's no true, you're an expat, you, how can you call yourself a local?

Well, you know, that person has surfed there for 30 years and knows everyone by name has done this time, like respect due. You know? So I like to find out about those stories and get to know people and, and see where people slot in to, , a break if I have enough time. Sometimes you're just passing through for a surf and you've got one surf and you've just gotta try and make sense of it a a little faster.

, But yeah, I think too many people just don't spend enough time trying to understand what the environment they're really operating in and just get caught up in the pure like. You are paddling past me. It's my turn. I'm deepest to the peak. All these kind of top level rules of surfing that don't apply at every break, specifically based on the hierarchy of level as well.

Yeah,

Michael Frampton: yeah, I totally agree. I think they do, they obviously do apply when you think, when you see surfing as a sport and in competition there's priority rules and stuff. But which segue into is surfing an art or a sport. I think if you approach it as more of an art, it gives you a lot more leeway. You should of break the rules of sport and there's more nuance to, to read the ocean and, and surf breaks as more and like, like you said before is I want you're mentioning uh, some of your friends that catch waves.

They're so good at it. It's like an art form. Um, and I know we did touch on this question way back in, uh, episode five back in 2015, uh, 'cause of the name of your website and businesses, the Art of Surfing. But I'm gonna. Come back to you. I've been talk, been talking about this question a bit with recently, again, sort of revisiting it.

So I'm gonna ask you again. Is surfing an art or a sport? Mm-hmm.

Matt Scorringe : Well, for me it's 100% an art. Like that goes without saying. I mean, the whole reason I did name the business the art of surfing because was because that, that's, you know, just at the core of it, it's an art form and it's an art form that has been turned into a sport for those that want to play it in a sport format.

That's how I see it. And so, you know, we're, we're, we're grabbing something and we're going, this art form's beautiful. You know, like, what a cool thing. Like look how he does it. Look how she does it, look how different she's doing it to him. , But look, why don't we. Create some parameters here and see if we can create some sort of sport.

Right. And you know, it, it's evolved and we all love the sport. Like, you know, groms love to compete. I've loved to compete. I love to watch competition. I love to follow the WSL. I love the idea of having a world champion. I, you know, we, we, we want to create some form of sport within it that we can all be proud to be a part of and follow.

, But at the core of what you're doing, it's art. At the core of riding a wave, there's no more pure art form. And I have a little bit of a tagline with my business and it's, it's basically like the symbols, you know, art and science. And so my coaching philosophy is to blend the art and the science together and deliver it to my clients in a digestible way that they can understand it and they can, they can put it into practice.

Because if you are. Not a court, uh, a, you know, born surfer in the ocean and you have, you know, natural ocean knowledge and you grew up on your boogie board and your surfboard, and you've just got this feel for the ocean. If you're, if you're foreign to the environment, it can, it can look like reading Chinese when you're English, right?

It's, it's such a different science that your mind starts to melt. Like this mathematical equation is just like, I can't get it. But if you break this huge equation down into bite-size pieces and go, well, if we start here and just here is really one plus three, so what's that equal? Okay, cool. So you get that.

Now we're gonna go up into this level. You can really start to take them on that journey of understanding the art and the science of it. , And you're almost, what I like to say to a lot of clients is when you do that, you are maybe focusing on the science bits a bit like this technique and this kind of like strategy.

But what you're teaching them on a bigger scale is the art form. And when they kind of zoom out, you've kind of like the same paint by numbers. You sort of got them painting the ones and then the twos, and then the threes, and then they kind of zoom out once they're up to the tens and they're like, whoa, look at this.

Look at this picture of 'em drawing. You know, it's, this is cool. Like, I didn't even realize I was putting this piece of art together. And you show them a clip, you know, one day that kind of shows them that like, Hey, look, you've just positioned yourself so well here. You've, you've turned, you've cooked, your pop-up was smooth.

Youve got speed off the mark, you've flowed to your marker, you know, you compressed, you leaned that bottom turn your extension and your timing was great. You threw your arms and your framework really, really well. And you got your kicking your pedal into that snap. Like you just combined all of that into this one moment.

You know, and for many surfers, that's, that's not that easy, you know? . At all. And you know, when you get caught up in coaching a lot of talented kids and juniors, you forget. You forget that side of the sport. And, , well, that side of the art Yeah, because it's so easy to say sport, right? It rolls off your tongue.

But, , I think those clients I'm teaching in art and my more high performance kids, I'm teaching the sport, I'm teaching strategy and drills and pressure, you know, scenarios, mindset, confidence, you know, that's all sporting language, right. That you can, you can transition between any sport. , Yeah. Whereas I think our art form of surfing is a different, , killer fish when you talk to how to coach it.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's a good analogy. Yeah. The, the breaking it down, breaking the art of surfing into a science, like paint by numbers into little mm. Into little blocks. And is that what you're specializing in doing with your remote coaching? You tell us about that.

Matt Scorringe : Yeah, absolutely. The, the remote coaching,, I, I guess I was thinking like, how can I be more impactful on a longer term, , journey for my clients, right?

Rather than coming on a camp or a course or, or a few in-person sessions here or there. Like, how can I actually do what I just explained, like kind of create this program for them that will step them through painting, painting the numbers, and then being able to zoom out in six months time, a year's time and, and be like, you know, way ahead of their surfing curve than they ever thought.

And so, you know, with the evolution of technology, , I decided to launch my remote coaching packages. So with that on a simple top, you know, level, they submit footage to me regularly. I do their assessments, I put together their training programs. I like to compare it a little bit. For those that are listening to a simple, you know, remote, um, PT trainer, because it seems to kind of just connect, like, oh, I could see how that could work then where you are training in a different gym, but you're checking in with your trainer over the other side of the country or other side of the world.

You're sending them videos, highlighting your, your reps, your routines, they're micro, um, managing that. They're, you know, adjusting those, those reps, those weights. , And you don't really see it until you see it. And a year later, six months later, you are, you're a lot stronger, you're a lot further, you're a lot more mobile because of the work and the personalization they're putting into your program.

And you can't do that without assessment. You can't just create a one stop course for everyone. Like that just does not work. And I just don't believe in that stuff. Um, do they help understand the base layer of knowledge? Absolutely. But they're never gonna actually truly get you from where you are to where you want to be.

And so I really moved away. From one-off remote, like, you know, video analysis, , purchases. I only work with people a minimum of three months and most people sign up for my six month or a year just to, you know, see those results. Or they might do three and then they just, they just stay. , So yeah, that's how that works.

And it is designed purely around that whole combination of the art and the science, and then being able to zoom out and actually see true results, , whether you are a performance junior surfer, wanting to go from like, I'm a good surfer, but I want to be progressive and I want to be dynamic and I need to, I need to lift my score lines.

We, we can take you on that journey. We're gonna go more into the competition sports side there, , or your. A 40-year-old woman that's living in El Salvador who I, you know, as a real example of someone I coach and she's started, decided to ride a shortboard after a longboard her whole life. , And we've got her doing snaps in the pocket and, you know, she had a good base layer, but she never knew how to turn properly.

And yeah, it's been a fun journey, , I really enjoy my, my remote coaching. And the best thing about it is the accountability. People have to submit footage and so they go away and they work really hard because they know they have to send map footage and they wanna, they wanna show results.

And so just like if you're gonna send a photo to your, um, PT three months later, you don't wanna send the one of you looking less fit than when you started with 'em or her. So it's kinda thinking.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, that's a good analogy too. 'cause when it comes to training in the gym and or changing your diet or whatever, you need consistency over at least three months to see any sort of change and Absolutely.

It's the same with surfing as you're surfing, even more so, I mean, gosh, you could be, you could almost become an expert in the gym in two or three years. It's gonna take you more like, , 22 or 23 years in surfing. It's, you gotta have the long, the long game when it comes to surfing, unless you're 10 years old and you're starting now made a rubber.

Yeah. Okay, cool. So how can people learn more about, uh, more about your remote coaching?

Matt Scorringe : Yeah. Um, best place to find me would be on Instagram, the Art of Surfing and the art of surfing.com. So yeah, if you head there, there's , a good page about the remote coaching. There's a page about our online academy membership, which is more of a entry level too.

, The remote coaching where there's more tutorials and um, video content, but also with the year membership, people get a Teos annual review and that is one version of the programming I do. And then they get to get a taster and if they, you know, want to, you know, be more committed to their, their surfing than progression, they can up, up, up, um, grade to the remote coaching package as well.

Michael Frampton: Okay, awesome. So that's the art of surfing.co nz. There will be links to that in the show notes, and if you're on Instagram, it's the same, same handle. And also, so let me ask you, it's for people listening in, uh, America and Europe, it's coming into winter season, so there will be intermediate surfers listening that will be tempted to maybe step outside their comfort zone and surf some slightly bigger waves.

, Do you have any tips for those, those people entering this season over there?

Matt Scorringe : My, my main tip for winter surfing in general is, so when you look at your mindset to performance, regardless of your level, there's certain pillars that you want to strengthen and lean into and spend time in. One of those pillars is form and like focusing on correct form, but with, , a more sort of slower pace to it.

So we, we otherwise call that focusing on rhythm, right? Like when we build rhythm and we try and build flow, , that can look really beautifully and done with minimal effort, minimal, like major range of movements in our, in our body. So think of John. John, like, or Occy, like you're saying. So winter you're generally.

Want to maybe look at writing a slightly high volume board. , You might want to play around if you're an intermediate level surfer with, you know, those mid lengths that you might have started to also explore with, and you're gonna be wearing lots more rubber. So I move my clients away from the fast twitch, , dynamic focus, , kind of coaching focuses that we might have in warmer water or in summer months, and more on the range of movement, but done not at a rushed pace.

So to say that was something tangible to work on. It might be working on like, rather than off the mark speed and, and pump, pump, pump actually working on your timing of your first bottom turn and just being deep with your glide. And so less effort on the, the speed to get to that moment. But when you are there.

You know, compress and lean and see how low you can get, how much you can touch, and then really extend up as you draw up the wave towards that top turn and isolate that. Just be okay with that being what you are working on and less worried about the overall outcome of this wave being three or four to the beach or putting together this perfect ride because we move slower in the colder water, you know, we're stiffer, the boards are, you know, the wits make you heavier.

So bit of volume, bit of flow, bit of focus on some isolated, um, range of movement in some areas. And you know, obviously if you've got a coach you're working with that can tell you what those areas are. Great. But just from a generalized point of view, that's a theme I, uh, I kind of lean into with my clients that are in their winter months because you're also not usually catching as much waves in those winter months.

Just typically not surfing as much. Your reps are down your wave count, you know, your ride time. So rather than trying to, you know. Be all over the show with it. Just simplify, build some flow. Yeah.

Michael Frampton: Range of movement. Yeah. That's actually good advice for all levels of surfers. 'cause if you're in summer mode and you enter that summer frantic way of surfing into a powerful wave, you're gonna, it doesn't, doesn't really work.

Does it? Yeah, totally. The irony is for those who haven't really stepped into winter waves, the intermediate surfers, when the bigger the wave is, the more time you actually have. Now it's scarier. So sometimes it feels like you have less time, but if you're comfortable in the ocean on bigger waves, you, you going a bit faster, but you actually have more time.

'cause it takes longer to drop down. So you need more control and less, less, less fast twitch. Um, and then of course you've got, we've got the Southern Hemisphere listeners and we're coming into summer. Any advice for those coming into summer?

Matt Scorringe : Yeah, look at the moment I've, I've really enjoyed with my remote coaching working on my client's framework and the entry phase.

So what that means is when you are entering your top turn, I call that the, the, the entry phase. So basically your bottom turn and your approach. Um, you have your action phase, which is whatever maneuver you're trying to do off the top. And then you have your exit phase when you're sort of like obviously trying to complete it and ride out.

And so with summer, and then we can just zoom out and say surfing in general, like you're gonna usually get your reps up in the summer, you're gonna be hopefully surfing in boardies and, and light of we ease and you're gonna be more quick kind of with those reaction times. So you start to get erratic and if your movements are incorrect and erratic, you double down on negative results with your surfing right?

And you're actually creating more bad habits, uh, and you start to sometimes get worse. And you're surfing more, but you're getting worse. And so the frustration comes in. So what I like to get people really focusing on as they kind of make that transition is the framework, particularly of their arms. So again, like how to do that is something that you'd have to, you know, be coached by me to do or someone that you work with.

But getting your arm set, getting your, your, your extension, your framework of the arm set so that when you are doing your movement patterns, you're in the action phase, you're coming from a, a, a good foundation. So, um, a good analogy is golf. Like, think about walking up to hit a ball. , And you don't really address the ball very well.

You just sort of like, get up there, set your feet, look, look down at the pen and just swung away. Most of the time for an everyday golfer that that swing's gonna be pretty bad and the ball's gonna not go where you want it to go, and you might get a few that go kind of good and, and, and the majority of that won't.

I know that's certainly how it is for me. Um, and the difference is if you were to go up, you address ball properly, you go through your routine, you get your framework set, you kind of have your, your, your markers that your coach has given you that you gotta make sure of, and then you breathe into that moment and, and you go, go for the swing.

You're, you're generally gonna find that you have a much better consistent swing. So the beauty of golf is you can take your time and you can address that as long as you need. With surfing, you don't have that luxury. You're gonna be coming off your bottom turn and boom, you're at the top. So to implement the right framework is much harder, therefore more important.

And yeah, okay. It might be trickier to actually do, but if you can get your arm set and you can get a high back arm and you can activate your leading arm so that you have the arms ready for leverage and rotation or twist or throw, , you're generally gonna just throw, twist or rotate in a much better form, and therefore your surfing will be better, less erratic, and you know, you won't have that frustration that follows.

So yeah, what does that look like? Well, you know, that's something that you, you need to get some tips on if you're, if you're not sure. But ultimately, , just think getting your arm set to be utilized. A lot of people just don't lift them. They're just underneath their arm, their, , shoulder height through all their surfing.

, There's no over. The shoulder throw, it's all under the shoulder throw. So I think, , a lot of backstroke swings rather than freestyle swings. Mm. So what does that do? When you go into a Rio or snap and you're doing a backstroke swing, you are actually pulling your whole body momentum back over your heels to sit back down.

And a lot of surfers do that with their finishing turns or top turns. Uh, if you can get that over shoulder throw, freestyle throw, uh, you're going to project a forward momentum, uh, a forward cycle and circle that pulls you over your toes, helps you rotate and twist out towards the beach through the turn.

Um, so those little things make a huge knock on effect. Um. You know, and, and you're surfing and summer is a good time to, to get that right because, you know, you're, you're generally just gonna be, hopefully surfing a lot more, more reps, more moments. Yeah. And, and maybe a little bit more lively with your approach.

Michael Frampton: Mm, yeah. That's a, that's a nice detailed tip there. Yeah. I think a lot of, even a lot of surf coaches would miss that, the difference in an arm swing. 'cause the reverse under the, under the shoulder, that's a react. That's a fear thing. That's a pullback. It's my god. Yeah. It's reactive, fear based. Yeah. And you can over, you can override that and actually correct the fear at the same time, or you can correct the fear and sometimes the movement is corrected.

And of course, if you've got a good coach, you're doing both. So, um, those that we'll find out more about next. Well, you know,

Matt Scorringe : con confidence is. Confidence is not a feeling. It's the result of actions, right? You get confident based on the result of repetitive actions you've done that make you not fear that moment, fear that situation, fear that movement.

So the action phase creates confidence and you nailed it. Like I use reactive versus proactive surfing as a 1 0 1 explanation for my clients. Like, here's proactive surfing from you. And then as you transition here, this is all reactive. So we'll go back to your last proactive moment, okay? That's where we now look to implement the, the next phase in a proactive manner.

So they may have a good takeoff, they may have a good bottom turn, but from their approach into their action phase, it's all reactive. Well, that, that's where you've gotta start. You can't, you can't talk about their finishing phase yet. Like they've gotta get this right before. You know, paint by numbers though.

Michael Frampton: Yes. Yes. Step by step. Well, those who are listening, who are inspired to find out more, go to the art of surfing.co nz. And, uh, if you're really serious about changing a surfing, you gotta, you gotta have some commitment. It's gonna take minimum three months of consistent action. And, uh, I can tell you from experience, I've been through a phase of my life where I spend a lot of time, effort, and money on improving my surfing.

And I certainly do not regret it because. It's not something you have to do for years and years and years. Even if you only did one year of that, you've changed the way you surf forever. , It's, it's amazing what I blew my own mind of what I achieved within a year. Uh, I, you know, achieved my goals, you know, way earlier and, and far beyond what I thought was possible and when I focused on my surfing.

So I encourage those out there just to just get it done, get some coaching done. It's painful, watching yourself surf, et cetera, but it's the only way forward. Mm-hmm. And Matt's one of the best in the business. So thank you for tuning in. Uh, you can also go back to episode five and episode 79, I think it was.

I'll put links to that, the other two interviews with Matt in the show notes if you want to hear more from Matt's philosophy and of course his backstory in the original, uh, episode. So Matt, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Matt Scorringe : Cheers, Mike. Likewise, stoked to be back on the pod. And, .

Thanks everyone for listening. Hope you guys got some good takeaways and, and enjoyed, , enjoyed the conversation.

The Surf Mastery Podcast: 

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

Is the surfer catching the most waves always the best surfer in the lineup - or just the loudest?

Surfing is more crowded than ever, and the line between etiquette and entitlement in the lineup is getting blurry. Whether you're new to surfing or a seasoned local, understanding the evolving ethics of surf culture can make or break your session - and everyone else’s.

• Hear Holly Beck share how her transformation from competitive surfer to retreat leader changed her perspective on surf etiquette.

• Learn why the unspoken “rules” of the lineup are more complex than just "who's deepest," and how understanding nuance can lead to a better surf experience.

• Discover how surf culture can shift towards empathy and inclusivity without sacrificing skill, tradition, or respect. 

Tune in to hear a refreshingly real and nuanced conversation that will challenge how you think about surfing, sharing waves, and what it truly means to be the best surfer in the water.

https://surfwithamigas.com

Transcript:

Michael Frampton: . That's a good segue into what we're gonna talk about today, but there's another thing that's, , for those listening, we're gonna talk about etiquette today, soon, but let me ask you, here's a question that I've been asking guests recently, which I think ties into the, the broader topic of what we're gonna discuss today is, is surfing a sport or is it an art?

Holly Beck: I think it depends. I think it could be either, depending on the participant. I think that for me, when I was a competitive surfer, then it was sport. And now that I'm not a competitive surfer, then for me it's more of an art. But I think that different people can, can make that choice and be right.

You know, that both, both answers could be right, depending on the person and how they approach it.

Michael Frampton: Okay.

Holly Beck: What do you think?

Michael Frampton: I, I agree with that. I, I I, I think it's a, well, I think it's a sport, obviously if you're in a surfing competition and you're being judged, you know, it's a sporting competition.

And in those situations, surfing is a sport. However, when you were to watch the replay of John John surfing his final winning wave, it's pretty hard to argue how artistic and dance like the way he moves is, and I would, he hesitate to, to guess that he's just in the zone at trying to be one with the wave and express himself through surfing rather than, oh, I gotta hit the lip three times to get to the beach, to score a, an 8.7 that I need.

Maybe sometimes he thinks like that, but I just think the, the, the best in the world, they treat competitive surfing like a sport, except when they're actually surfing, when they're actually standing up on the wave. That's when they're performing an art form. They just, all the competitive stuff, all the rules and regulations of , paddling around priority, all that jazz.

The sporting stuff seems to sort of get, it should be forgotten about once you're up on the wave and then you're an artist essentially. Um, there's no finish. I wonder

Holly Beck: if you could say the same thing about the greats in things that I think most of us would say are a sport like soccer or football, , my son is really into soccer and so I've been learning about soccer.

I didn't play soccer growing up, but we've been watching messy, you know, videos of messy and all of, you know, the compilation on YouTube of the amazing goals that he's able to score and the different ways that he's able to do it. And I think when you mentioned Jonjo on his winning wave, I kind of had that same thought of like, if you are so great.

At whatever it is that you're doing and you're in the flow, like the different ways of scoring a goal or even shooting a basket, you know, with the hang time and the style of the way that your arm is , at that point it's going beyond just, I need to get this ball into the goal, or I need to get this ball into the basket.

And it's like the flare of how you do it that makes it into an art.

Michael Frampton: I totally agree. I think messy is an artist. I think the difference is though, a football game, the score, if the ball goes in the goal, you know, there's a hard line you win. Like, like a running race is a great, like there's no arguing. You either won the race or you didn't.

It doesn't matter whether the second place looked more beautiful doing it, this, they still came second. Whereas in surfing, we're almost judged on how artistic we look when we are actually surfing. The fastest surfer doesn't necessarily win. It's the most beautiful way that you surf with the wave that you've been given.

So I'd almost argue that the sport of surfing is judged from an artistic perspective far more similar to gym gymnastics in the Olympics, for example.

Holly Beck: Yeah, for sure. That makes sense. Mm-hmm.

Michael Frampton: But

Holly Beck: I, again, I feel like the, the difference in, well, at least the, the way that I interpreted your initial question is like how you are approaching it.

You know, if there's like a, a sporting mindset of like my fitness and my training, and I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna perform a certain, I guess even using the word perform kind of messes it up. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna achieve a certain set of things versus I'm going to maintain my flexibility so that I can go out and perform my.

Stance with the wave. So maybe it's just, I, I just noticed that my relationship to surfing has definitely changed. And, you know, 10 years ago I would answer your question differently than I answer it now. And I don't think that surfing has changed. I'm the one that's changed.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, I guess my argument is that for most of my listeners, I, if you wanna get better at surfing, I think it's better to think of it as an art form rather than a sport.

'cause it sort of takes the competitiveness away from it. 'cause often when we think of sport, we think of competition, whereas surfing outside of competition, 99% of people listening to this probably more have no, um, have never competed in a surfing competition and have no desire to.

However, they do want to get better at surfing and I like to sort of think of, , surfing as more like music than it is tennis.

Holly Beck: Well, and then I guess you have to ask the question like, what does it mean to be better at surfing? Is it better because you're able to catch more waves, you're able to ride bigger waves, you are able to perform more advanced maneuvers?

Or is it because you're able to go out there and connect with the ocean and feel the glide and have fun? Because for some people it might be really good at at the first and really bad at the second. And are they really better surfers because they can do Hess, but they're getting angry and they're making enemies and everybody in the lineup hates them.

Does that make them a better surfer than somebody that's just paddling out and enjoying the experience and connecting with the other surfers and the water and ride standing up and having a beautiful long ride where they kick out of control of their board? Is that a better surfer?

Michael Frampton: Well, exactly.

And you hit on my point. I think that a lot of people, especially young beginners, , the way that they think about surfing is bastardized by the surf industry and the surfing media where they think, oh, a good surfer is someone who surfs a shortboard and does three to the beach. Whereas actually, if you think about surfing as not a, not a sport, but more of an art form, more like music, then you can actually sit down and go, actually, what does good surfing mean to me?

And then there's such a broad spectrum of what that means. Maybe it is. Yeah. I do it actually. Damn it. I do want to show off and do three to beach and owning that and doing it is gonna make you better. Or I think for most of us listening, it's actually, you know, I just maybe surfing a bigger board and catching.

Waves over here away from the crowd that aren't, don't peel as much, but I get more of them and it's just more about me adventure, surfing and connecting with the ocean. Actually, maybe that's more getting better at doing that, getting better at surfing that wave over there that no one else surfs or whatever it is.

If you think of surfing as an art form, then you get to choose your genre of surfing and dive into that and decide what it is more rather than just, I would need to get the latest pop out shortboard model that so-and-so's riding and the wetsuit that he but, and the clothes or whatever. I just think so many people have been blindsided by the surf industry and the surf media as to what surfing is and when you change your whole philosophy.

Define what your own surfing is and what you want out of it, then not only are you gonna be better at surfing, you're gonna be, you're gonna have a better attitude in the water. You're gonna be more fun to surf with. Um, blah blah blah. Which kind of leads us into the etiquette side of things. 'cause I think that ties into it quite nicely.

Like if you are literally paddling out at a crowded surf break in a short, on a shortboard, and you want to just catch lots of waves and pretend that you're John John, there's a time and a place to do it. And if you're gonna do it at trestles, there's a different etiquette than if you were going to, you know, paddle a longboard out at, at Noosa on a, on a Kneehigh windless day.

You know, the, the, those are two completely different situations and I think the etiquette needs to be, I don't think there's any one way of thinking about surf etiquette.

Holly Beck: Well, I, I like what you said about it being specific to the, the situation and the different spot that you're in and, and that etiquette is like, there is a general set of like rules and also there's a lot of gray area, and also the rules change based on the situation.

Michael Frampton: Definitely. We can agree on that.

You, you, you do. You know, um, this came up because of some, there's been an article on Stab and Surfline and then there's been a bit of back and forth through Instagram, some of your posts, and then you reached out to me with an email. And I think we agree on in a lot of ways, but I think we also disagree in a lot of ways too.

But let's hear some more of your extreme, not extreme. Um, some

Holly Beck: call them extreme views. All right, I'll, I'll tell you where they came from.

Michael Frampton: Yeah.

Holly Beck: If that's how, that's what I'm trying to ask. So I, I, I grew up in the, and started surfing in the mid nineties in Palos Verdes, California. And Palos Verdes is really well known for having like intense, like old school etiquette.

Like if you don't live here, you can't surf here. One of the things that creates the conditions for that is that the waves there are very infrequently good. The waves get amazing, they get world class. There's awesome waves, but you need a really specific type of swell to make them work. So all summer long it's completely flat and in the springtime when you get wind swells, it's junky.

So the only time that makes those waves really good is when you get like a strong northwest long period swell. And then there's all of these points that light up and Palos Verdes is located in between Los Angeles and LA County. It's this little peninsula that sticks out. The freeways are really far away.

Nobody's passing through Palos. You have to go there. And it's also a upper middle class location and the along the coast in Palos, because it's so beautiful and it's right in between LA and Orange County, it's really expensive to live there. So there's a lot of. Trust fund kids and very wealthy, you know, adults that live there that feel this sense of entitlement and privilege.

And also the fact that the waves don't get good very often when they are good, there's this feeling of like, these are our waves, these are our waves in our backyard that we've waited all year to surf and we are gotta, we've gotta stop the outsiders for coming in, right? This is localism at its peak and that's what I grew up in.

And, and so when I was young and getting indoctrinated into that, you know, I thought that was the way to do it. And you know, if you're a grom, you sit, you start at the beaches or you sit on the very inside and you don't get set waves and you have to like play all the different games of ingratiating yourself to the guys at the top of the pecking order and pay your dues and be out there on the sloppy days.

And make friends. And then also, you know, it's like a pack of dogs. The, if the alpha is barking at outsiders and you want to be accepted by the alpha, then you have to also bark at the outsiders. So I got pulled into that pact of thinking that that was the right way to be and that was the cool way to be.

And I also want, you know, to claim my share of this limited resource. And so if I saw, , people from out of town that I didn't know, I was a jerk to them, just like everybody else was paddling circles around them, dropping in on them, telling them to beat it. Like I had a friend who would, you know, on a crowded day, he would call out and he'd be like, who knows the zip code?

If you don't know the zip code, turn and paddle in right now. Right. And, and so I thought that was normal and that was right. And I defended that. And then I eventually moved to, to Central America and was surfing very uncrowded spots and kind of started to develop a different perspective. And I started to surf with a big group of women and recognize that just because I lived there, you know, and here's these clients coming in for a week, does it mean that I get more right to waves than they do because I live there?

And at first I said, yes. Yeah, maybe not my clients, but when I was out surfing this break, that is now my new home break. And then, you know, there's the local kids that are true locals, and then there's me who's lived there for 10 years. And then there's the guy from Florida who's been there a week. And so I kind of took that same mindset that said.

I deserve more than you from Florida because I live here and continued it. And, and then, you know, I have progressed as a human and through the counseling degree and, and everything else. And, and I had been teaching to our clients. 'cause we teach etiquette, right? I believe that everybody needs to know etiquette.

And if I'm teaching surfers how to surf, part of my responsibility as a surf instructor is to teach them etiquette so that I'm not just pushing him into waves, but I'm teaching them to become a surfer. So that means educating them on the history and how to be a surfer in the lineup. And I used to teach, okay, here it is, you know, the surfer closest to the breaking part of the wave has priority.

And as you paddle out, you know, you make sure to paddle around into the channel if you can. And if you're paddling out and somebody's on the wave, it's your job to get outta the way and sacrifice yourself to the whitewash. And don't drop in and surface spot that's appropriate to your ability level and all of the basic.

Rules that I think us as surfers don't argue about. Like we all agree that those are the rules of surfing. And then I used to say too, like we are not all equal. There's the guy who has been surfing here before you were born. There's the person who is an exceptional surfer that's lived there a long time.

And then there's you as the visiting advanced beginner or beginner on a long board. And you're not all equal If you all paddle out at the same time and the set wave comes, probably the guy who's been surfing here before you're born is gonna take the first good wave and then the aspiring pro surfer is gonna take the next good wave and then it's your turn.

And that was what I would teach. And I started to adjust my mindset and I gotta give credit where it's due. Part of it was from a good friend of mine who is a woman of color, and she had created this organization, co-founded an organization called, um, color the Water that was all about taking people from communities that traditionally didn't have access to surfing and help bring them into surfing.

And, and she had this like, we'll call it like woke, but like, you know, uh, evolved. Vision of equality that I didn't agree with. 'cause I was like, no, if you don't live here and you're a beginner or you know you haven't grown up there, then you need to give extra respect to the locals. And we got in these big arguments and over time I started to change my mindset because a lot of the things that she was saying was like, why is it that Just because, let's use me as an example.

I came from a privileged background of having the opportunity to grow up in this beautiful surfing paradise. And I am, came from a family with money. So I didn't have to work when I was in, I mean, I did work in high school, but like not in the sense that stopped me from going to the beach. I didn't have to like help provide for my family.

And then. I was able to continue to live that lifestyle that was able to spend a lot of time to become a good surfer and to spend a lot of time at a certain break. That was a lot of privilege and luck that I had. And why does that make me more worthy of set weights? Like it shouldn't, right? The ocean is for everyone.

So if I paddle out into the water, just because I grew up surfing and I live close to this break, if somebody didn't grow up by the beach, they grew up inland and they've moved to the coast and they have to work to support their family, so they only get to surf one day a week. So they're still, you know, learning to surf.

Why does that person not have a right to catch a set wave? And, and like, I didn't have a good answer for that.

Michael Frampton: Do you? I the, the way that you grew up in surfing partly answers it. I, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I do think it's specific to where you're surfing.

Like this, this person, if this person took that attitude out to uh, uh, head high day at first point Malibu,

Holly Beck: well, what's the attitude? Good, good. What's the attitude?

Michael Frampton: What do you mean?

Holly Beck: You said if this person takes that attitude, what attitude? Define the attitude.

Michael Frampton: Thinking that they should just get their turn because they paddled out at a surf spot and that everyone should have turns.

Is that what you're sort of getting at?

Holly Beck: I, that's, I think that's what we're getting at. But let's, let's remove Malibu or Lenta Bay from it and let's just think about average. Average surf spot. Any surf spot, random surf spot, not famous, intense. We're not talking about pipeline or Malibu or raglin. We're just talking about a, a beach break.

Mm. Crappy, crappy beach break. And three of us are going surfing and one of us lives there and one of us is a pro surfer and one of us is, they're ca capable of surfing those waves. I'm not saying somebody in their first day ever, that's gonna be a danger to anyone. I think a lot of times in this conversation, the argument becomes you're advocating for beginners at the peak.

No, no, no. I'm not saying that. Saying that we're all capable surfers. Mm-hmm. But one of us has been surfing at that spot since before we were born, and the other one has been surfing there for 10 years and somebody else, it's maybe their first time there.

Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. Okay. So in that, in that situation.

Yes. I, I, I see what you're saying. Like if, if we all three went out surfing together at a spot and it would be, there's enough waves for us to take turns and still get our fix, and each person is going to respect each other as from a human level, not just a surfing level. It, it sounds awesome. And in that situation, I, I agree with you.

How, however, during that same surf if, because I've been surfing there all my life and I see it's let, let's say it's, , Janet's turn and she's the first time she's a capable surfer, but it's the first time she's surfed there. And we've been sharing waves all the time. But I see, I see something on the horizon that indicates to me, oh, there's a rogue set coming.

I know where these ones break and I paddle out, it's her turn and I paddle out a little bit further. She follows me, but. My experience out at this break has told me no, there's a wave that there's a rogue wave that's gonna break there. I don't care if it's her turn. This is my experience coming through.

I'm taking that wave no matter what. That's where we get into the nuance and the, because my, my I, I'm more competent to that break. I understand that wave more. 'cause I've spent more time out there. I think I should be able to catch that wave of the day and not necessarily give it to her unless I felt generous in the time and I wanted her to catch that wave.

'cause I wanted to share the stoke. Maybe I'm a little bit older and more mature and I've, damn, I've had my fix for today. So I think there's a lot of nuance there. And that decision was like, do I, do I use my. Experience as a surfer in this break to get that the best wave of the day? Or do I share it with someone else because, not just because it's their turn, but maybe that's the a nice thing to do in the moment.

That's where I think the nuance exists in this situation. However, there's not many situations like that. Usually when you go surfing, no matter where you go, whether it's first point Malibu or some closeout beach. So in between there and Trestles or anywhere on the along the coast, there's people everywhere and it's so hard to get away from people.

And I would say most people under 45 have the old school mentality of surfing. So you are, you're in this sort of gray area of like, do I be nice area? No one else is taking turns. Why should I?

Holly Beck: Well, that's the problem. And I, and I think that, that, that is where it comes in. And, and to like, to go back to your example, like yeah, the local, that is a good surfer, that knows that break is gonna get more waves and you probably will get the best wave of the day that comes in.

And as you should, that is your, that is your benefit, that is your reward for having put that time in and studied that spot. Right? So I'm not saying that like, if there's three of you, you should all have the exact same number of ways. My, my point would be that you see that lump coming and you know where it's gonna be and you paddle over and, and maybe she follows you, but you've initiated it and you've taken it.

Like, I think that's fine. The problem is that if you take it here. And then she goes, okay. Right. I'm gonna, I've noticed I'm learning from him and I'm noticing that there might be a good one there. And she paddles over it. There's not a second wave in the set, unfortunately. But she sits there and waits and you go, oh, right.

She's kind of in my spot, but I'm gonna paddle back around her and sit a little deeper that way. The next one that comes, I'm gonna take that one too, because that's my right as a local at this spot, because that is the attitude that I see happen. Mm-hmm. So I agree with your, your nuance. I think that there is, there is nuance and it does break down when too many people are fighting. So, but I think it's important to start with what would we do if there were just a few of us? What would be the right thing to do?

Throw away the old rules and think about what would be the right thing to do? What would be the human thing to do? It's never gonna be completely equal, but if you think about what would happen if there were just a few of us, how would I behave? How would I act? What, you know how it is when just like you and your friends go surfing.

Like if you do get one of those lucky days where there's just four or five of you and you're cheering for each other and yeah, maybe somebody catches a few more than others, just happens to be in the flow and those waves just come right to them, you know? But they're gonna, you're gonna recognize if you're out surfing with your friends, right?

You're gonna recognize, Ooh, I've kind of gotten really lucky and I've just got three good ones in a row. And even though this other good one is kind of coming right to me, I noticed my friend hasn't had one. So you're gonna most likely back off and be like, go. This one's yours, right? Like that's how you would behave in a small group of surfers that you knew, or even a smaller group of surfers that you didn't know.

Like most humans are gonna respond like that. So my point is, if we were teaching that as the right way to do it, even in a giant group of surfers at Malibu, if that was the norm. Then I feel like surfing culture would change a little bit. And instead what I've noticed is that as it gets more crowded, people are holding even tighter to the old ways and also they just don't know.

So part of what has made me think about this more lately, yes, my, that conversation with my friend kind of opened my eyes to, wow, I have experienced a lot of privilege and maybe I should be using my privilege to be nicer in the water instead of just putting the blinders on. But lately I've been surfing a point break that used to be a secret spot that now is becoming more and more known and more and more crowded and.

I've been frustrated by it. There's like a top of the point where like the very tippy top where all the aggressive surfers paddle each other too deep to be the deepest. But the actual best part of the wave in my experience is a little wider. Like the ones I sit a little further down the point and the waves that swing wide, the wave that they break on the point is actually where I prefer to sit.

So I generally sit there and so I watch the aggressive surfers do laps. And there was this one day, there was this surfer. He was kind of darker skinned, but it wasn't obvious that he was local. I was, I'm in Costa Rica, so he, it wasn't obvious that he was a local Costa Rican, but he did have a little darker skin and he was wearing these bright red board shorts and I'd never seen him before.

And I've spent a lot of time at this break. So I feel like I know most of the true locals. I'd never seen him before. And he was just doing laps. He was a good surfer and he would catch a set wave. He would catch a little wave. It wasn't like he was just waiting for the best waves of the day. He was paddling for any wave he could catch, and he was riding them and bee lining it straight back to the top of the point and going again.

And he was really irritating. A lot of the people in the water were irritated with this guy and some people were grumbling to each other, but no one was really saying anything. And probably third day of seeing him during the swell, I had a friend paddle out, a girl on a longboard. She was having a hard day, she just needed to get a couple waves.

We were kind of, we started chatting, we sort of floated down to the very bottom of the wave and she was like, uh, I'm so frustrated. I just need a wave. And I see red shorts up and riding again. And he has already traversed, you know, like 50 meters. This is a real long point break. We're at the very, very end of the wave where most people just kick out.

Anyways, she's on a long board and I tell her, oh, it, it's just red shorts go. You go drop in on it. Which, you know, may have, may not been the right thing to do. But in that moment, I'm trying to look out for my friend. This guy's not caring about anyone else. So I tell her to go, she's like, really, really the guy?

And I'm like, don't worry. He's been, he's been taking too many, everybody's annoyed with this guy. So she drops in on him and he is racing down the line. And what most I think of us would've done would've been like, Ugh, and kicked out, whatever. I've had a hundred waves today. Let let the girl on the long board go.

But he didn't. He forced it and yelled at her and she got flustered and she fell off. And I'm like, oh my God, I've caused this. So I'm sitting there preparing my apology. I'm thinking to myself, when he paddles back out, I'm gonna apologize to him and I'm gonna say, Hey, I'm, that was my fault. I'm so sorry I told my friend to go, but this is why I've noticed that you've been catching a ton of waves.

Maybe you should let a, a few go. Before I got a chance to say that to him, he paddles up angrily. And my friend, who's already had a bad day, she just releases her anger on him. And instead of apologizing, she goes, I heard that you've been taking all the waves, and that's not cool. And now we're all yelling at each other, just the opposite of the vibe I'm trying to create in the water.

But I got kind of sucked in. And, and he doesn't understand because in his mind, he got dropped in on and yelled at. And now I'm, instead of calmly apologizing and having an opening to this conversation, I'm now yelling back at him and we have this whole thing. And, and he paddles away. And now all three of us and the, uh, the bystanders in the water, everybody's nervous system is activated.

And I was like, Ugh. And eventually he paddled over to another one of our friends and said, what? I don't understand what just happened. So she told me that. So I paddled up to him and in a much calmer way, I explained what happened and he told me he thought he was following the rules. He was like, but I was deepest, so that means I have priority.

And, and I, that was the realization that, you know, everybody in the water is annoyed with this guy, but he doesn't realize it because in his mind he's a hundred percent justified. He's following the rules. And you know, we eventually, we explained, we, you know, Pura Vida High five, we respected each other's surfing.

And I think it was only because I am a very competent surfer that he would even hear me out because that is surfing, right? We as surfers respect other talented surfers. And you know, he had, he commented like he had seen me, , catching waves. And I said, yeah, I also respect your surfing , so we can have this conversation.

And a few days later I saw a very similar thing happen with a, like a beginner surfer. This guy could barely surf, but he was doing the same thing. He was paddling up to the top of the point. He was going on waves, he was falling, he was doing it over again. And I went to him and had a nice conversation. I was like, Hey, I noticed you're catching a lot of waves and even dropping in on, or not dropping on people, but like dropping in too deep.

You know, like he was taking waves that if he had let them go, other surfers could ride. So he was blocking people from catching waves in that way. And I'm like, but you know, you should really sit down the way or let some waves go. And he's like, but I was deepest. And so that is what made me realize that this is the problem, is that when we as surfer culture are having these conversations, we're telling people these are the rules closest to the breaking part has priority.

Don't drop in, paddle around, but there's no mention of and look out for other surfers. Keep in mind that just because you can sit deepest and take waves, that doesn't, there's more to it. And soon after I'd been having these conversations, I was scrolling Instagram as you do. And I saw that, I think it was Surfline had this really cool feature that they had clearly invested money in.

And there was these animated graphics and it was all like the rules of surfing. And I was so interested. So like, so what are they gonna have? And, and it was all of those rules. It was like surf at a spot appropriate to your level, you know, all the things that we already listed, no mention of, and look out for the other surfers and take turns.

And just because your deepest doesn't mean that you should have priority forever. Like it, like similar to your, I listened to your podcast of, uh, Laird, you know, the, when you had the, you told the story of Laird. Yeah. Where I was like. Laird thinks he's Laird, so he gets to go, you know, and it, it's like, why aren't we having this conversation more that it isn't just if you're the best surfer and you can take off the deepest that you get more waves.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Uh, it's so nuanced. And to take that lad story, I think the lad story and your story of red shorts are quite similar in a way. Do you know the only, the only reason that LAD was getting so many waves off me. Is because I let him, and the only reason Red Shorts was doing what he did is 'cause he was acting like a kook and no one was pulling him up on it now until you calmly spoke to him.

And he's like, oh. So I describe a kook as someone who's with a lack of awareness. It doesn't matter whether you're a good surfer or not. You, if you're out there just running rings around everyone else and with a complete lack of awareness, just think, oh, just 'cause I'm just, 'cause I can drop in, you know, more than earlier than you.

I get all the waves. You're acting like a kook and it's up to one of the elders. Now, maybe it's one of the elders drops in on him, pushes him deep, and then the guy comes at him and starts yelling at him and he just looks him in the eye and says, nah, man, you're going in. That's the old school way of way of doing it.

And that's how it used to get sorted out. But nowadays it's more like, actually, we'll let you vent and calm down and then I'm gonna have a logical conversation with you. And if you're still gonna act like that, well you know what you're gonna get dropped in on. And everyone's on my side. And I, I, I think, so in my, the situation with lead, I didn't speak up early enough and I mean, of course part of it's lead Lead is who lead is because of what lead does.

That's part of it too. But at the same time, when I did stick up for myself, he was, he kind of more appreciated it than anything else. And just like with red shorts guy, I, I'm assuming he did change his attitude or he paddled in that day, or, I mean, what ha have you seen him since? Like what, what's the follow on from No, I,

Holly Beck: I never saw him again.

It was, it ended up being the last day of his. Of his trip. He, he turned out to be Costa Rican and which is something he like, let made sure to let me know and that, but he lived in a different part of Costa Rica and, and when we finally had that conversation, it was like, at the very end of this, we'd both gone in, we we're both on the beach and had the conversation on the beach.

So I never got a chance, but I, I, I hoped that he thought about it because that, like, that was the realization was that to me it seemed like he just didn't realize, like he, like I think Laird realizes, like Laird knows, right? Like, I wanna think that Laird knows that. It would be nicer to share waves, but because he is layered, nobody's gonna say anything.

Where in this case, both red shorts and the beginner guy that I mentioned, they just literally didn't know. Like they looked at me like there was some, like they were shocked that I was calling them out because they thought they were in the right. Because even when you, you know, you go to a surf break and you see the like signs now that they have at places mm-hmm.

That are like the rules of surfing. You know, again, the rules are surfer deepest and don't drop in. And that, that, that's the conversation that I wanna have. Like I recognize that there's nuance and you get to a certain level of certain number of people in the water and it's just like, it's becomes chaos.

But I wish that there was more conversation around and let's look out for each other in the water. Because sometimes I think that that person that is catching so many waves, obviously everybody's different, but a lot of times they think that they're crushing it. They think they're showing off. Mm-hmm.

They think that the other surfers in the water are like in awe of all the waves they're catching and how they're ripping. And if we, as a surfing culture, were adjusting what we felt like was good surfing and that included was pleasant to surf with. Then I think that the lineup would be nicer for everyone.

And then the shredder, because that's how I try to surf now. You know, like, don't get me wrong, I like to be the best surfer in the water when I, when I'm having a good day. And I love it when I do a big turn and someone comments, and I love it when I get the best set wave of the day. Like I still have that.

But I have now recognized that if I have that, but everybody's annoyed with me, then I'm not actually the best surfer in the water. And that that's the part that I wish was more a part of surf culture. Because I think that still, there are people, a lot of them like that believe that part of being the best surfer in the water is also getting the most or the best waves.

And it's aside from just their enjoyment of those waves, but they actually think that that is them, you know, winning. Winning the surf session.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. . And I think . Pre CCTV, that person would've been showing the door through old school passive aggressive localism, which I agree with you, but not if they

Holly Beck: were local.

Michael Frampton: No, it depends if, if he, if he, it depends on who he's snaking. You know, if he's, if he's out, if there's a bunch of plumbers that want to get their three waves before work and they're older than him, well, you know, he's not gonna get away with it back in the day. Nowadays with CCTV, no one wants to say anything.

No one wants any, no one wants conflict. People just ignore these sorts of people and just. Like, I mean, ld LD is gonna go out and catch as many waves as LD can catch. He's, there's no etiquette in Laird's mind. It's a dog eat dog world. I'm the best. It's a hierarchy of confidence. I'm dropping in deepest, I'm on a standup foil board.

I don't give a shit until someone looks him in the eye and says something to him and says, actually, I'm gonna then let Mike go. You know what? You made the effort to actually say something to me and make a conversation and prove to me that you can catch a wave on the peak. Yeah. Okay. We'll, we'll go wave for wave now.

I, I think the, the problem in the culture is no one says anything, therefore narcissistic and kooks like red shorts guy and lead Hamilton will do whatever they want to catch as many as waves as they can. Now I, I agree. I don't think you should go dropping in on someone and pushing them into the reef and being passive aggressive about it.

But neither should you just say nothing. Paddle up to him, look him in the eye. If he's not willing to have a conversation, he keeps doing what he's doing well hey, maybe, maybe then drop in on him 'cause he is not listening and he, so I, I think I, I agree with you. I just think that the, the rule surfing has no rules.

You know, I think that's the beauty about surfing. But yes, there are ethical practices to make sure that lineups are safe. 'cause at the end of the day, it's a safety issue, right? If someone's gonna be like that, people are gonna get frustrated, they're gonna make bad decisions, they're gonna drop in on some, on him, on a long board, someone's gonna get hurt, whether it's a wave of consequence or not.

So it does come back to a safety issue. So if, if, if someone like red shorts is, is being a dick and at a, at a surf break where there's no real shallow reef or anything, the consequences are people are gonna get frustrated with him and a long board's gonna get in somewhere. So maybe it's up to one of the elders to actually pull this guy aside and say, Hey look.

You're active, this is the way you're acting, this is the way people in the lineup are seeing you. Just letting you know, yes you are, you're a good surfer. You can paddle deeper than everyone else, but this is how people are experiencing you

Holly Beck: just to, and, and I think that having, having these conversations helps spread that idea because I think that a lot of people, like in, in this particular case, there's not really elders at this spot.

You know? Like this is a, the spot that you kind of used to be a secret spot. And now a lot of people that surf there, like they're just that, that doesn't really like, I guess I'm the elder in this case, like I was, I find myself at this spot a lot. Like I don't feel like I normally would count as an elder, but I'm kind of filling that role as someone that surfs there a long time, has the surfing skill to kind of back it up and feels like I can speak up.

But there's plenty of other people in the water who are surf there a lot longer than this guy. But I think they don't feel empowered. To stick up because that isn't what they've been taught. Like, I think it goes back to this thing like the, to popularize the idea that if someone is taking too many waves, like that isn't okay.

Like we should be taking turns. And that doesn't mean that the actual, you know, old man that's been serving there forever, that's 70 years old that doesn't catch that many waves and he's finally gonna go and not look. Of course I'm gonna say, yeah, you go, you know, there's some element of, you know, respecting these certain individuals, but with the idea that the respect goes both ways.

Right. I, I think a, a lot of times also when I have this conversation, or at least when, when I was having it on the keyboard through Instagram and I was getting so frustrated because I couldn't actually have a conversation. A lot of the keyboard warriors were saying, if, if people sitting on the shoulder wanna catch more waves, they should just sit deeper.

And, and I feel like that goes against it because it's like, if. At this break, again, as I say, like there's the, the steeper top takeoff and then it's a really long wave with a nice sloping shoulder. And there are a lot of kind of advanced beginners or lower intermediate surfers that ride fishes and mid lengths and even long boards sitting at this break.

And if the only way to tell them, the only way they can catch a wave is by being deepest, then that invites all of them to have to go sit at the top of the point. But they don't wanna sit at the top of the point. And if we said you on the long board, that's really better off sitting on the shoulder. The only way that you can get in position to have your turn come up is to sit at the top of the point.

That's actually what's endangering people. So the better practice is for the surfers at the top of the point to occasionally let some waves go. Have it not always be the surfer at the very top of the points priority, just because they're capable of sitting deepest. Because the alternative is to have these surfers have to sit further up and then they're not as competent.

And if they do wipe out, they're right in the thick of things. Like I would rather that surfer sit further down the shoulder and after I've had a few waves and here I am on another wave and I see this beginner surfer on the shoulder that still hasn't had one, like I should kick out and be like, you go, I'm not gonna do it on the very best wave that comes in.

Right. But like, it should be their turn, it should be their priority. Hmm. And, and, and I feel like that's you, you don't agree. How are they ever gonna be good enough to sit at the top of the point if they're never allowed to catch a wave?

Michael Frampton: Yeah, no. Uh. I see your point of view. However, it it, it makes me think of, uh, , I, I haven't surfed in this place.

I haven't surfed in this culture. It's hard for me to comment. So let me give you an, like, I surfed first Point Malibu a lot and yeah, nowadays there's a handful of surf instructors on the inside pushing kooks into wave cos like people with lack of awareness, people there for the tourist experience, quite frankly, people that should be practicing how to stand up on a surfboard in the whitewash at Zuma Beach where there's no one else around.

Now if I, now, if I spend an hour sitting on the peak waiting for my turn for a set wave at Malibu first point, and I finally get one of these waves. And I managed to surf it most of the way through. And this is at the end of the section. I wanna finish off with a nice nose right and glide out. But no, so-and-so's pushing soft top in my way.

I'm no, I I should have been allowed to do two more turns on that wave and you should actually be at a different break learning how, even though this wave is catchable here, it's still actually quite a rippable wave for good surfers. Just 'cause it's harder to catch further up doesn't mean that you get to catch the last part of the wave.

So

Holly Beck: I agree with you a hundred percent and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm, I'm talking about, let's say.

You, I'm sure you're very capable of sitting steep and deep in Malibu. And Malibu is maybe not the best example, but let's just use it. I know how Malibu at sitting at the top. It can be a little steeper and then it's a little easier to get in on the shoulder, right? And we're not talking about like the a plus day where all the pros are out and it's, it's crazy.

Just an average day at Malibu, and I'm not talking about the beginner on the soft top, getting pushed in by an instructor. We're not talking about that guy. Talking about the maybe one level down and skill from you, however you would define that. Not as good as you, but like aspiring to be as good as you, almost as good as you.

Not quite as good at taking off steep and deep, not quite as able to sit late underneath all the crowd. Little bit more nervous about sitting there, wants to sit a little further over to have a little bit more time on their popup, but they're capable of getting up and riding down the wave. Without such a pressure situation.

Mm-hmm. It's more like that person. It's that person that is, is also paying their dues, is also waiting their turn has watched you get a few good ones. Okay. You've been sitting for an hour and you haven't had one. No, please don't give your wave away for this person, but I'm talking after you've had a few and everyone else sitting with you has had a few, and you've paddled past this person that's just sitting like 10 feet over, 15 feet over because they just don't have the, whatever, the confidence, the experience mm-hmm.

To sit. As steep and deep. That's the person I'm talking about.

Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. I've been that person. Yep. I've, I'm there. I'm there. There's no way. When I, when I was that person, there's no part of me that would paddle out to halfway up the point at first point Malibu and expect someone to pull off after having caught the wave at the peak and give me a wave.

No, I'm there to get the scraps. I'm there to get the wide sets that do come through that the other, that the guys sitting at the point don't want. And I will sit up into the point and I'll watch them and I'll learn from, and I'll put hours upon hours into that wave to learn how that wave breaks before.

Now I, now you've, and now

Holly Beck: you've gotten a little closer and that, that's good.

Michael Frampton: Yep.

Holly Beck: Good job doing that. And now you've gotten a little closer. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and the idea that what if there's a guy that can take off four feet deeper than you and every single time he paddles past you Every time.

Michael Frampton: Yep.

Holly Beck: Because he is like, I live here. I live right here on the point.

Michael Frampton: That's not why, but he's just more skillful and knows the wave better.

Holly Beck: Or, or maybe he's, maybe you guys are equal. Maybe he's actually an equal server, but the fact that he lives there gives him a certain amount of entitlement and knows everyone else in the water.

Mm-hmm. Like, wouldn't it be nice, wouldn't it be more enjoyable for you if he didn't paddle past you every single time?

Michael Frampton: So I, and just said,

Holly Beck: I'm going,

Michael Frampton: I, I also lived in Sydney and I used to surf a slab, like quite a difficult wave. And the takeoff zone is very small. Only about five people can even sit there.

So, and I spent, gosh, it was, I, I surfed there for hours every single day for at least a year before I was allowed to get a set wave. And there is no part of me that thought, oh my God, I wish you had just given me a turn. Or, you know what I mean? Now, partly 'cause it's a safety issue as like I, they knew whether consciously or not, I didn't have the skill to take off right at the deepest part of the wave.

'cause I might've got dragged along the reef and I, I certainly wasn't a local. And so I got the scraps and I caught the ones on the shoulders for years. And then every now and then I paddle out early in the morning and there's no one out. And I got to paddle. I got to take a few from the takeoff point, and I, I worked my way up.

So I've, I've been in these situations. I can understand why people new to surfing think that, oh no, shouldn't I just be allowed a turn? How do I, how else am I gonna get good at taking off deep without, unless you give me a turn at doing it. So I, I see your point, and I see newcomers coming at this from this perspective, but I also see the tradition and I, I, okay, some locals take it to the extreme and aren't necessarily doing it for reasons of safety and culture and ethics and stuff.

They just want their waves. But we also have to deal with those people 'cause they're not gonna change their ways either. So. Well,

Holly Beck: I think it's sometimes it's hard to, when we've grown up in this culture and, and we like, it's like that. I, I hear you and I can relate to the fact that I paid my dues. Now you have to pay your dues.

It's, it's almost like that the whole culture of like hazing, you know, like the seniors beat up on the freshmen and, and then those freshmen grow up and be seniors and then they beat up on the freshmen and, and it just like the cycle or I know in the fire service my partners of was, is a retired firefighter and talks about like in the fire services the same way like the young guys have to do the grunt jobs because that is how it's always been.

But if you take a moment to separate from that and think, but should it be that way? It's like, yes, we had to deal with that. We got yelled at and kept on the inside and forced to sit on the shoulder, you know? And because, and now because we survived through that and got to the other side, now we're gonna expect that everybody else has to do it too.

Like, I, I get that, but it's just the question of, and, and I think again, like. When you're talking about pipeline or this slab or first point Malibu, it's a harder conversation to have. But what I see is that even at inconsequential waves, you know, and we're not, again, we're not talking about like the beginner getting pushed in on the soft top.

I agree with that too, but what I'm talking about is the more like the middle ground, the average surf session, the e similar inability levels, but maybe this one's a little better than that one and, and it still happens. There's still this idea that like, if I surf better than you, or if I'm more from this spot.

Then I get more and, and it the only, I just don't think that it's like, you know, you go to the grocery store and you wait in line. And even if it's really crowded and there's only one checkout counter for like so many grocery shoppers, like nobody's expecting that if you live next door to the grocery store or you've been surf or checking out at that grocery store for 20 years, that you get to cut the line.

You know? And it's like, why in surfing do we decide that if you're really good at grocery shopping and you live right next door and you've been shopping at that grocery store since you were a little tiny kid, that you get to go to the front of the line and nope, sorry, you just gotta pay your dues. And then one day when you put in the time, you'll get to where I am.

And, and I understand when it's a safety issue. A hundred percent agree. And yes, a beginner that should be writing whitewash should not be taken to the top of the point. I see that at this wave too. I see surf instructor, we, we don't bring our clients to the top of the point. We have them sit at the bottom of the point because they don't need to be riding those waves.

But if we get a guest that is a competent surfer that knows those how to surf, we're not pushing them in, we're just sort of guiding or coaching them, then they should be able to go out to show respect, to wait their turn. And then when they've done all those things and the set wave comes, not have somebody that's lived there longer back paddle them or drop in on them or tell them that they should be sitting down the beach just 'cause they're not from there.

And, and I feel like whenever we have this conversation, it always goes to the extremes. In the extreme, I agree with you. But just to start moving in that direction. Because even in the extremes, if, if I think that if part of culture, surfing culture was this idea that if we're all catching waves, the lineup is a healthier, happier place.

And, and yeah, if you are being dangerous, then please go down the line. But like if we're all out there together, then the locals and the better surfs, they're gonna get more waves, they're gonna get more set waves. But that doesn't mean that they have more right to those set waves. Like the other person should have the opportunity to try for a set wave and if they fall, they fall, that's okay.

That was their turn. There's no such thing as a wasted wave. Whether I caught the wave and rode it all the way to the beach, or I caught the wave and blew my popup and fell, that was my turn. I could do whatever I want with my turn. If I'm riding a thin looks board and I blow it. That's, but

Michael Frampton: the, well, with the irony, the irony there is depending on the break, but in a lot of places, if you don't get, if you stuff up your turn, you don't get another turn.

Right. Not that, not that day anyway. I, I, I see what you're saying in terms of the, I don't disagree with you.

But it's so hard for me to comment having never surfed this specific place,

Holly Beck: and I'm just using this spot as an example. Like I, today I surfed a whatever beach break right out front. But I noticed the same factors at play. The, the locals that all knew each other, that are speaking each other in Spanish, and they see me as the blonde girl and they think that I don't live here and I don't speak Spanish, and they paddle straight past me to the top of the point, you know, I'm sitting there waiting for it, not the point, the peak where I'm at a beach break.

I'm sitting here waiting for my wave. I know exactly the wave I'm looking for. I know how to surf. And the guy just paddles right around the side of me, you know? And I'm just like, you didn't need to do that. We're at a beach break. It's not even very good. There's plenty of ways coming in, like just because you live here, you don't need to assert your dominance and paddle around the other side of me.

Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yep. Yeah. No, I, I I, I, I do agree with you. It's just so nuanced and so, um, I mean, surfing has a hierarchy of competence. There's no, and yeah, I'm using extreme waves like Malibu and pipeline to, and we all always seem to go there, but I think sometimes when you're trying to make a point, it's good to talk about the extremes because what's on the other side of it, like, okay, let's say go to ATU and there's an 18 second swell coming in.

And have you, have you surfed, I'm assuming you've surfed ATU before?

Holly Beck: Yeah, not a ton, but I have.

Michael Frampton: But even just walking down the stairs to get to paddle out is tough. But the amount of people that I saw out surfing. ATU on soft tops and just having no idea what they're doing. And there's locals up on the cliff whistling at them 'cause they've gone too far and they come reef cuts.

It's just like, I can see why, like if you're a good Aussie surfer and you want to go to ATU to surf in 18 seconds swell, and then you try and catch one of these crazy waves and there's just a bunch of people flailing in front of you. It's really frustrating. Can, can they manage to catch one of these waves and ride along?

Yeah, sure they can, but they're putting themselves and other people at risk in doing it. So when I read, we see articles coming at it from the other extreme on stab where Aussie surfers are sick of these tourist kooks getting in the way and hurting themselves. And you see that that's another extreme right.

People are taking this entitlement. It's my turn.

Holly Beck: That's, but that's not what we're talking about.

Michael Frampton: No, I know, but it feeds, it does feed into it a little bit. Because you can see if you've, there's

Holly Beck: always based on the idea that you are capable of surfing this spot if you are a beginner, and yeah, you could take off on a wave and go straight, but like you're dangerous to yourself and others.

You shouldn't be out there. I'm not saying that,

Michael Frampton: but that's why

Holly Beck: the extremes. I agree with you a hundred percent.

Michael Frampton: But that, that's what I'm saying is that a wave like ATU is a very tricky takeoff spot.

Holly Beck: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: You can sit a bit further down and get into one of those waves a lot easier, but if someone has put the time and effort in to become a a surfer, good enough to take off.

At the spot at ATU and they finally get one and they get barreled and they come out and they're like, come out to the softer part of the wave and they wanna rip a few turns as well. And then there's some person, oh, it's my turn to go. 'cause this is the easier part of the wave. I would say to that person, you're surfing the wrong spot.

If you can't take off at the deepest gnarliest part of that point, break that peels all the way through, go somewhere else. So if I'm a local and I've negotiated the, the barrel section of a point break, and yes it's sections, but I wanna do some cutbacks as well on that wave and someone thinks, oh, but it's my turn.

First of all, I, I'm surfing 50 meters up the line. I don't know whether you've just caught eight waves or not. I don't know whether it's your turn or not. So whilst I see it's frustrating for the, the beginner intermediate to sit on the shoulder and catch some good waves at a point break. I'm also thinking, shit, maybe you should be at a point break where it's not as tricky to negotiate or at a beach break practicing to get good enough to actually sit closer to the point.

Maybe not to fight for the set waves right at the point, but to at least be seen to be competent by that group that are doing it. So maybe they will, you know, okay, that's not a great set wave. You, you go on the shoulder. Do you see what I'm saying? The the, the, I do

Holly Beck: and I agree with you and I agree and that's where I feel like there's so much nuance because what I think what I'm saying is, yeah, you're the guy and you've gotten the sick barrel and the wave is still going and you wanna do like five round house cutbacks.

You should absolutely do that. But maybe on the next wave that you get, you come out of the barrel and now you're like, you know what, I already, I just rode that last one all the way to the beach and did five cutbacks. But actually the part of the wave I'm enjoying the most is the top with the barrel and.

I could do five more cutbacks on this wave again. But I also see this long borderer really wanting to have one. And you know what? I, I'm just gonna kick out and let them go. It's not because you have to, it's because that is what's actually gonna make you a better surfer in the water and the long boarder paddles back out and you've made their, that got the best wave of their trip.

Right. You're not gonna do it every single time, and you're a hundred percent entitled to ride that wave all the way through. But I think again, like it just, the, the guy that's done the barrel and wants to do the cutbacks, he doesn't need to do that on 15 waves. Right. But, but like, that's not what we're teaching.

We are teaching them. Yeah, I'm the guy and I can do that on every single wave because I have more right to surfing than you because I'm a better surfer and I live here and you're a danger, go somewhere else. You know, and, and I, and I feel like it might not be that person's fault. Like they might be there with their better surfing partner who's also up at the top of the wave.

They would love to go somewhere else. They don't wanna be there, but for whatever reason, this is where they are. This is where they happen to be, and they're trying their best to stay out of their way. They don't wanna hurt you. They don't wanna mess up your wave, you know? And, and I think that's the conversation.

And it is so nuanced, you know, because I don't think that they have the right to drop in on you just because it's their turn. I'm not saying that. Mm-hmm. But I feel like if I, as the good surfer, have now changed my mindset, believe me, I wanna go out there and get mine. I'm a busy mom. I don't get to surf as much as I used to.

I have sessions when I go out there and I just need to get a couple waves and I'm gonna go get those waves. But after I've had a couple, I'm way more likely with this change of mindset to be like, if I give a wave away. Like, call it karma or just line up good vibes or whatever. Like, I'm gonna stoke this person out.

I don't need, I don't need to do three more cutbacks on this wave. I really don't need to, I'm gonna be seen as a better surfer. I'm gonna be more enjoyable to surf with. I'm gonna be more respected in the water. I, if I do kick outta this one, you know, if I go to paddle for Wave, I'm deepest. It's a fun shoulder, high wave, but here's this competent, lesser skilled surfer sitting nearby that I know I've paddled around three times already, because they can't sit as deep.

They don't wanna sit as deep, like, maybe I am just gonna let this wave go. I don't need it. You know? Mm-hmm. I don't have to do that. That's the choice I'm making. But that's the Right, that's the ethical thing. If we're talking about ethics, surfing ethics, like that would be the more ethical thing to do.

And if more people surf like that, better surfers than me, surf like that, then when I'm at a spot that's like in my challenge zone. And if there was someone in the water that has had four waves, that I'm sitting a little bit on the shoulder 'cause I'm kind of feeling nervous and I'm learning from them and I'm trying to figure out the positioning and I'm kind of nervous to go.

And they look at me and they're like, Hey, go. I'm gonna be so stoked. It's like that paying it forward, like we were all beginners. And I think that now the culture is, I was a beginner and I suffered, and therefore you have to suffer. But imagine that you could go back and be that beginner and the more experienced surfer was there to kind of support you and lend you a hand, and then you were the one paying that forward.

Like, I don't know, it's such a utopian vision that doesn't exist. But we can create that if that's the conversation that starts happening. And you're right that there's gonna be people that are not gonna change. But you know, I'm 45, those people are getting older. Eventually they're gonna need knee replacements and hip replacements, and they're gonna be on a long board sitting on the shoulder.

And it, it's the surfers that are learning to surf now that are gonna make the culture going forward. So can we shift the conversation at least a little bit?

Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. We definitely can. And again, I don't disagree. I think, you know, I'm, now that I'm older and I'm more inclined to, to surf the way you describe, like Yeah.

But it would be silly of me to expect others younger than me and hungrier than me to surf that way is my point. And so, so yeah, I don't disagree with you at all. I think the problem is people don't talk enough in the water. . There's too many surfers nowadays and there's not an, the passive aggressive sort of old school way isn't gonna work.

There's just too many surfers for that to work. And,, it's just better to talk to people. If, if someone is, is acting like an idiot in the water, then it's up to one of the elder surfers to say something to them rather than just drop in and threaten to bust their fins out or whatever. I agree with that, but it is also up to the, the beginner surfers and the average surfers to have a little bit of, um, re respect for the history and the way that surf culture did evolve.

We can't change that and that some surf breaks, no matter how much you want them to change, they're just unlikely to change. So if you wanna surf there, you just better be looking out for the scraps and working your way up to the point. Whereas there's gonna be other, I'm sure there's, I'm sure there are places in, maybe even in Costa Rica where it's, there's nothing but surf schools and there's nothing but it's your turn.

No, you go and polite and long boards and soft. I'm sure there are places like that too. And it would be silly for a short, even though the, there are some waves coming through that are very short, portable for some short border to come through and try and rip through a bunch of long borders. Learning that, that would be silly of that person as well.

Just like it would be silly of a, a learner to, to try and go out to first point Malibu just 'cause they could surf it. 'cause it's an easy wave to catch. It's silly for them to expect. Gosh, first point, Malibu is an incredible shortboarding wave. It was one of the most funnest waves to surf on a shortboard.

That doesn't mean that you can go out there and sit at the peak e even if you lived there. Even if you surf a longboard there every single day, you, you're not just gonna grab a shortboard and go and catch a wave. You're gonna get laughed out of the lineup, even though logically, you know, you're a local and you're surfing.

It's just sort of, it's just the way that the history and the culture of that break is, and there's no disregarding that. So I think we're far more in agreement than maybe this conversation's alluded to. I think just the nuance of every single break and every single swell is something that that beginner surfers need to be more aware of.

And maybe as surf coaches, we need to sort of. Talk about more. , I, and I always say, look, paddling up to someone looking in, in the eye and talking about it is the way to go. No matter how angry they look or whatever, may, if they have a couple of teardrop tattoos under their eye, maybe just, maybe don't, 'cause you might get your tires stabbed, but other, otherwise it's, you know, I think in, in a lot, surfing brings out the worst in people, especially when it's crowded.

But I always find if you can be calm and look someone in the eye and have a conversation with them, maybe they get angry and paddle away from you, but then they actually might see you in the car park and come up and say, sorry, you know what? Hey, you know what it was, it was hectic out there. I'm sorry. I just ignored you and you tried to talk to me.

Or what I, I think you'll find most people give them the benefit of the doubt. And even if they're angry in the moment, they might disrespect for you, but the next day you see them in the water, they might apologize and people were willing to hear you out or. It could backfire on you, and they might go, actually, you've been sitting on the inside just getting in everyone's way.

It would be far better if you just went down there and practiced your popups and you might actually end up with some, and then there's everything in in between. So yeah, it's a, it's a good conversation to have. I, I always tell people to dive, as much as you want to dive into surfing and getting better at surfing, dive into the surf culture and listen to, ain't That Swell podcast.

Listen to Surf Splendor podcast. Follow the Ragland Surf Report and John Wayne Freeman on Instagram and just really get a feel for how, man, don't screaming.

Holly Beck: Come on. Well, I don't

Michael Frampton: the extremes. You're getting the extremes of surf culture. I know what you

Holly Beck: mean, but I, I also think that the way it, to me it's okay to surf culture to change because if you just listen to what surf culture was from the beginning.

Back in when women didn't surf and it was so like women shouldn't be in the lineup. You know, surf culture can change and that's okay. Like I, when we teach it, I always teach, look, this is the history of surfing. These are where these rules came from. There's a lot, most of the people in the lineup are operating from these rules, but that doesn't mean that these are gonna be the rules forever.

And we can start in our own, in our own little world, our own little group, we can surf differently. And the more we surf differently and infect other people with surfing differently, then surf culture can change. Yeah, agree. You know, I agree. I do think it's important to know what came before, but I also don't think that that's the way that it should be forever.

Michael Frampton: I totally, I totally agree. And I, it's. , Let's have the listeners out there. Chime in.

Holly Beck: Yes. Get ready for the comments.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Um, when I release this, there will be an Instagram post that goes along with it. So feel free to comment there. Um, write an email to myself, mike, at surf mastery.com. Um, you can go to Holly's Instagram page and chime in there.

But I think it's important that the nuance of this conversation is had. I think that's the most important thing. Um, whether who, whoever's right or wrong, that's gonna be nuanced to this specific surfing situation, I think. But the more we talk around it, the better informed you are to negotiate those situations.

Um, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's etiquette. At the end of the day, etiquette is sort of like a politeness. Thing. Right? And some, some, there's always gonna be some people that do not give a shit about et etiquette at all. So you can, some of them will have teardrop tattoos stay away from them. And some of them are, are, will be people that maybe they're, it's not just their catching a wave experience that's driving it, you know, that maybe they're trying to make the world tour and they, it, there's no standing in a talented surfer who is driven because that's how they, um, support their family financially.

Yeah. You're not gonna having a conversation with them about catching or,

Holly Beck: or maybe they just had a family member that pass away in a car accident or maybe they just lost their job. You never know. They just had a breakup. I, the way that I try to deal with. You know, we'll call it a, something that appears to be a jerk in the water is Yeah.

If you feel like your nervous system is up for the task and you feel safe to have a conversation, then do, and otherwise, I try to have compassion for that person because I, I, at one point I was at, I was postpartum and I had 30 minutes to surf and I hadn't surfed, and I would go out there and be a complete jerk and catch too many waves for 30 minutes.

So you never know what someone is going through and why they're being driven, but if you have a conversation with them and they tell you that they're more deserving of waves than you because of this, this, and this, like, that's where I'm like, okay, let's, let's discuss.

Michael Frampton: Mm mm Well, no, that, that's an interesting point too.

You know, if you've got, if you've only, like, if you're a, if you've been surfing a place for 20 years and you surf between eight and 9:00 AM before your job, maybe it is okay if you catch more waves. During that hour than the people that are there on holiday that can potentially surf that break for four hours a day.

This

Holly Beck: for sure.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. And it happened. One

Holly Beck: of, one of my friends that I made in the water, I, we made friends because I had to get out of the, it was six in the morning and I'd paddled out in the dark and I'd only had 40 minutes and I had to get out of the water to take my daughter to school. And I'd been trying to get one, and here comes this like amazing set wave.

And I dropped in on him and I looked back and I was like, I'm so sorry. I have to get out and take my daughter from school. I know this is not okay, but goodbye. And we're like great friends now. And we laugh about it and you know, the next time I saw him in the water I'm like, Hey, I think I owe you one. So you never know.

You never know what's going on. And like you said, there's always gonna be nuance, but if I just said, screw you, I live here and that's why I am taking the wave. I think that that's where it's, it's not okay. Not cool.

Michael Frampton: Yep. I a hundred percent agree with that. , And it is up to us to talk and,, yeah, just to confront people with words in the water rather than passive aggressive surfing antics.

I think we're in agreement with that. , And I think it's good that we have these conversations. 'cause like you said, you know, we're, as surf coaches, we are kind of informing the new, the new, new ones coming in or the ones that are interested in learning more. So it's important that we have these conversations.

So anyone else out there who's listening as a surf coach or an experienced surfer, please chime in.

Holly Beck: Yeah. And then also teaching the kids, like my kids are learning to surf My son's nine and, you know, we're having these conversations and it's hard 'cause he's a frothy little guy. He wants to catch every wave that comes in.

Mm-hmm. And I'm like, all right, if you catch every wave that comes in, then people aren't gonna like surfing with you. And when the good one comes, somebody's gonna drop in on you. So go ahead and catch all the scraps. But that doesn't mean you also get the set wave. You either get to wait for the set waves or you catch all the scraps.

You can't have both. Yeah. And so, you know, I, I think that I understand that energy from the young surfers, but I, I do still think that there's an opportunity to teach this other way of thinking. I could be like, no, I was a pro surfer and like, you're my boy and you know, you were born in Costa Rica and you surf here.

You've been surfing here since you were like in my womb. And that means that screw the tourists, you get to go. But that's not what I'm teaching it. And so it's like, it is that opportunity to, you know, teach a different way.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. It kind of comes back to how we. Initiated this conversation a little bit is your perspective on surfing and what you want and what you want outta surfing If you want to be the next Kelly Slater and you're gonna be very isolated in your surfing experience 'cause people won't want to surf with you.

, And so like you said, if you're teaching kids to hey, surf in a way where people want to surf with you, it's that simple really. Like my kids are quite good at, , sports and sometimes they get, uh, alienated at school because no one wants to play with them 'cause they're too good. And I say to them, well you need to play competitive sport in a way so that you get invited back to play again.

So sometimes you wanna pass the ball and instead of score the goal. And I think that was

Holly Beck: such a good analogy

Michael Frampton: that that kind of sums it up. If surf in a way where other people would like to surf with you.

Holly Beck: Now,

Michael Frampton: now when I go surfing and I, and there's a really good surfer in the water and they catch twice the amount of waves as me, that's okay.

'cause I love watching them surf and the way that they negotiate the takeoff zone and the, now if they're catching 10 times the amount of waves as me, then I'm like, nah, okay, come on champ. I'm gonna, I'm gonna push this issue a little bit. So there is a, there is a certain, um, amount of nuance there again, but yeah, I think it's, it's awesome that we have the conversation.

, Yeah. Thanks

Holly Beck: for being willing.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, of course. And hopefully we get some feedback and we can, uh, we can come at it again.

Holly Beck: Sounds good. Um, '

Michael Frampton: cause I mean, etiquette is one thing, but then ethics, that's a whole nother, that is a whole nother conversation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, re remind us of your website, Holly,

Holly Beck: uh, surf with amiga.com.

Michael Frampton: And what do you guys specialize in there?

Holly Beck: Well, we're doing primarily women's, but we have all gender and family retreats, so it's like week long experiences that are all over the world. Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Mexico, Morocco, Panama, Peru, Indonesia. And it, it's definitely kind of from, even when we have the all gender retreats, it's coming from like a female perspective of like encouragement and support and whether it's your first day surfing or you've been surfing your whole life and you just wanna like dial in your tube riding with video feedback, everybody, everybody gets met at the level that they're at with the idea that they have.

They're worthy of catching waves and we'll support them to achieve their goals. It's really fun.

Michael Frampton: Awesome. Can you spell the website for us?

Holly Beck: Yeah. Surf. With Amiga. So Amiga means friends in Spanish. It's A-M-I-G-A-S.

Michael Frampton: Perfect. And I'll have links to that website in the show notes, and of course links to your Instagram where people can chime into this etiquette conversation.

, Go and check out Holly's website and her Instagram. Holly, thank you so much for coming back on the show. Appreciate it.

Holly Beck: Yeah, that's, I, I really enjoyed our first conversation, so I knew that you were the right person to have this one with.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's a good conversation and thank you for, , you know, ask, bringing it up really and having the, the no to openly talk about it on Instagram, despite the, the black and white, uh, feedback that everyone loves to give on social media.

It's not easy.

Holly Beck: Yeah. It's fun though. Yes. Even I get like so irritated at one point when I was like aging in the conversation, I was like, I was traveling and I was like, at the airport, the baggage claim. My ride was there and I was like, no, I gotta finish this, like, response to this comment. So yeah, look forward to another round.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Thanks, Holly.

Holly Beck: All right. Cool.

The Surf Mastery Podcast: 

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

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Many surfers hit a performance plateau because they focus only on big maneuvers and ignore the foundational skills that unlock flow, control, and wave mastery. In this “Best of” episode, discover the overlooked mental and physical shifts that elite surfers use to elevate their performance - without needing better waves or a new board.

Learn how to “read” the ocean and see opportunities in every wave, just like world champion Tom Carroll.

Discover why the best surfers don’t think balance - they feel it, and how you can train your instincts to surf with more fluidity.

Get a simple yet powerful breakdown of how waves and surfboards work, and why leaning - not forcing - is the secret to rail surfing.

Hit play now to uncover the three timeless surf insights that will sharpen your focus, deepen your feel, and transform how you approach every session.

www.surfmastery.com 

Quotes from Episodes 2,3 and 14.

Music: "make a smile" Anthony Mea

Are you wasting energy every time you paddle out — and missing waves because of it?

Most surfers spend 99% of their time in the water not actually riding waves. They're paddling, positioning, sitting, or struggling to get back out — and often doing it inefficiently. If you're tired of burning out in the lineup and still not catching the waves you want, this episode is for you.

• Discover the three most common ways surfers waste energy — and how to fix them to catch more waves with less effort.

• Learn why your pop-up is the most important move in surfing — and how improving it could change everything.

• Explore how shifting from a fixed to a growth mindset will fast-track your progression and elevate your surfing experience.

Listen now to learn how to become a “lazy surfer” — and start catching more waves with far less effort.

Rob’s Website:

https://www.surfingpaddling.com

In this episode, Michael Frampton welcomes back surf paddling expert Rob Case to dive deep into the often-overlooked side of surfing: everything that happens before you stand up. They explore the massive role paddling technique plays in wave-catching, the evolution of surf coaching, and the mindset shift needed for adult learners to truly progress. Rob discusses insights from his new book, shares practical ways to reduce energy waste in the water, and explains why becoming a "lazy surfer" might be the smartest thing you can do. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned surfer, this conversation will change the way you look at the ocean and your time in it.

• Paddling is Most of Surfing:
  Rob highlights that around 99% of surfing is not standing on a wave — it’s paddling, positioning, and ocean awareness.

• The Three Biggest Energy Wasters:
  Most surfers waste energy in paddling, wave-catching, and getting back out after a ride. Rob explains how improving technique in each area leads to more waves and less burnout.

• Why Pop-Ups Matter Most:
  The takeoff is surfing’s most dynamic and demanding move. Mastering it is key to consistent, confident wave-riding.

• The Art vs. Sport Debate:
  Surfing is both art and sport. Treating it like an art form invites deeper curiosity and long-term progression.

• The Growth Mindset Advantage:
  Adult learners can progress quickly by being deliberate and focused — and by embracing the role of student.

• Becoming a “Lazy Surfer”:
  Rob’s coaching philosophy is about helping surfers do more with less: catch more waves, waste less energy, and surf with more efficiency and grace.

• The Value of Observation & Ocean Reading:
  Watching the ocean with purpose, understanding swell periods, currents, and timing are vital skills to develop.

• Behind the Book:
  Rob shares the challenges and revelations of writing his new book — and why it’s designed to give every surfer access to paddling mastery, regardless of budget.

Transcript:

SMP126RobCase

Michael Frampton: welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps surfers to catch more waves and surf with more speed, style, and grace. Today we have a return guest, uh, as Rob Case. He first appeared back in episode 12 and then again in episode 91, and Rob specializes in surfing, paddling, or paddling for surfing.

Now I have just released a course, which is all about what you do or improving what you do between when the surfboard is under your arm and when the surfboard is under your feet, because every other surfing course is all about what do you do when you're standing up. However, 99. Maybe more. 99% of what we do when we are surfing is not actually surfing.

It is sitting there looking at the ocean, trying to predict where waves are coming or paddling around trying to catch them. The thing is, what I mentioned in my course I don't specialize in is paddling, which is a lot of that time is spent paddling. , I refer that to Rob, that is Rob's specialty. And, , ideally you can get in front of Rob and do a one-on-one, , in Northern California or get to one of his courses and, , get some hands-on experience if you can't do that.

He's got an awesome YouTube channel and his own podcast and he's just released a book.

Rob Case: Yeah, that's awesome.

Michael Frampton: So you can, you can get into the details of it. Rob, welcome back to the show. Why the book? That's a

Rob Case: good, good question. , It's a good sleeping aid. Have you, have you tried that yet? I listened to my own, my own podcast to get to sleep.

, Now the book, the book was, I, I wanted it as another avenue for surfers to get the information, but what I realized as I was writing it, and it took several years to finally get it completed, but. As I'm kind of going through it and putting it together, I'm realizing that I can put a lot more detail, as you said, into the book, , than I can into the online course on the videos.

So a lot of the things that I was saying to clients when we were working one-on-one and in person or in the small groups, I, I didn't have in the online course. Those little nuances, , of clarification and the book allowed me to have all this time and space to kind of put all that in for those that really wanted that.

, So that, that was kind of the main purpose for the book, , was just a, another avenue, but also to allow people that want those nuances that, that, that actually learn better by text,, to, to get that kind of avenue. , And then also, you know, to allow people that can't afford my in-person stuff to get the information anyway, so now I.

Nobody really has an excuse not to work on paddling technique. Right. Or to learn about it. Right. , Before it was, I can't afford your in person, which I totally understand. That's, and so I did the online course and okay, that's too expensive. Okay, now you got the book there. There's really nothing. And then I even have free resources like the YouTube and my blog and the podcast.

So no excuse. If you really want to improve your paddling technique, and I'll clarify that. I work on paddling technique, not so much fitness. I, I do have fitness, but fitness is more other people's realms. Um, I'm, I'm really focused on the movement and, um, driving that, that, uh, neural pathway in your brain so that you're doing it over and over again without having to think about it as, as you've witnessed and been a part of.

Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. I'm witnessed and been a part of it in many levels. When a, you know, when a 12-year-old kid on. Shortboard paddles past you and you think that you're a good paddler, and you're like, what is he doing? And it wasn't, I always thought, you know, before I, um, came across your work, I always thought I was just stronger somehow.

He surfs more than me. Or, but no, it's all about efficiency and, and, and technique. And interestingly, it's something not a lot of surfers really, really think about. Um, they have the same attitude I used to have before discovering your work. They sort of just dismiss it as, oh, it's something that experienced surfers do or gifted athletes sort of naturally have.

But no, you can, uh, you can definitely learn it. And I like the fact that there is a book because. You know, you've, some people learn by reading a book and the book gives you so much room to add more details. , That's how we've learned throughout history a lot of the time is books, you know, videos and stuff are quite, quite new.

, And you think of any other individual sport like tennis or golf, there's, there's go on Amazon, there's books galore. Yeah, it's, it's kind of strange. There's not that many books on surfing. I dunno why. Um, I guess surfing's such a new thing and certainly, you know, accepting that you are a surf nerd and you want to really learn that's even newer than surfing itself.

You know, even 10 years ago it certainly wasn't cool to have a, a surf coach or to analyze your paddling technique. I think now it's becoming a lot more accepted. , There still is a little bit of that there, but, I mean, I, gosh, I remember watching. Was it, it, I think Olo, when Olo first surfed the box and he openly admitted that he, he had been up since 4:00 AM practicing his popups on his bed.

So Really? Yeah. So even the best in the world, they actually, behind the scenes, you'd be surprised how much work they're putting in and how much geeking out that they're doing in order just to get that much better than their competitors. And, , you know, there's no reason why we as surfers just, you know, as recreational surfers, just, I remember going through a phase where I was so, I kind of thought surfing was the selfish pursuit and, you know, why would I, you know, there's, why would I bother putting all that time and effort into it?

And then I realized, you know, who cares? It's surfing's my thing. I'm gonna give it everything I got. And, , that stage in my life where I really obsessed about surfing and was, you know, reading books on how to read water and taking fitness courses and doing, spending time, coming to see you and, and watching your content.

That obsessed, that period of time where I obsessed over everything surfing. , I never regret that. And it, it's amazing how much better you can become.

Rob Case: Yeah, absolutely. I, it's funny you kind of stirred something in my brain why surfing is so late to the game for getting information, for having books, for having coaches and you know, like every other sport like you said, has these things.

So is it, is it because we just have never really viewed it as a sport? Or have we never viewed it as a serious sport? Or is it not a sport? You know, those are the debatable questions. I, I think the Olympics really helped quite a bit. 'cause leading up to the acceptance in the Olympics. And even before that, MC Fanning kind of started it all well before that.

But the Olympics I think really rocketed coaching to a huge degree. And I get really serious surfers come to me now, and they're, they're very open-minded. And I'm always, I'm always kind of like, okay, well how do I, how skeptical is this person that's, that's always, you know, kind of these old school minded surfers that don't really think that technique is going to change anything.

And, uh, they're becoming much more open minded as they walk in the door, as, uh, as opposed to 10 years ago when I started the in-person stuff. So, really interesting that you brought that up. Um, yeah, I don't know. I don't, what do you think, do you think it's 'cause of the Olympics? Do you think it's just the evolution of, of the demographic of surfers?

So there's a lot new surfers that are older now. They're thinkers. Um, as opposed to when we started it was like, oh, we're just kids. And, you know, the kids really held up the industry, but now not so much.

Michael Frampton: I, I think it's, it's more psychological than anything. , And it can often start with how you define surfing.

, Like you mentioned, what is it a sport? , I like to define surfing as an art more than anything else. , And you might think, oh, that takes away from training as a sport. Well, actually no, it doesn't because you think of music and if you're into music, then you'd learn music theory and you practice.

You learn if you're playing guitar, you learn your scales and your chord shapes and you, you practice your timing with, with a metronome or, and so that you can play. Yeah. Right. You practice your fundamentals, right? Yeah, exactly. Or if you're an artist, you might spend a week doing doism, learning a different style of, or using a different type of paint or a different type of brush.

You're not actually creating art per se. You're just learning to use a new technique or, or a new piece of equipment or, or even a new form of art. And you go, a painter might try sculpture for a while and come back to painting. And so I think if we have that attitude as a surfer where it's an art and it gives it a bit more depth, first of all, than it just being a sport or a recreational activity, , I think that helps us to be more fascinated and obsessed and immersed in surfing.

And it almost gives yourself permission to, to dive in deeper and think. 'cause I mean, logically think about it, most of the time I don't stand up on my board. Why am I watching all these, why am I watching all these bottom turn and top turn techniques when. I actually just really want to catch more waves.

Really? Yeah. Because that's what it's about. So I should probably be better at paddling and better at reading the ocean. , And better at choosing breaks that aren't as crowded and better at choosing the right surfboard for the conditions. Like being a better surfer is, I think the technique of your bottom turn, et cetera, is such a small, small part of it.

And I think it's, first of all, it's great that a lot of people are diving into that mm-hmm. And getting better at that stuff. But I think it's, it's often misguided because it's so hard to, to be focused in the moment, to change the way you bottom turn, you've gotta get it's, you've gotta get everything else right first.

Yeah. You've gotta be a confident

Rob Case: waterman. I tell you guys all the time, like, I have the easy job. I can make somebody take thousands of strokes and I can correct them, you know, within the first five. Whereas a surf coach, you need a designated part on the, on the wave. , The wave needs to be shaped a certain way.

They need to be balanced, they need to be of sound consciousness to do something that you've told them to do. There's, like you said, there's all these nuances just to that one thing and everything happens so quickly. How is a surf coach ever able to really get that repetitive motor learning? It's, it's, it's, it's really difficult.

It's really, really difficult. So I, I have the easy job and I, I stop when people stand up and then I'm like, I hand it off. I'm like, go, go, go work with a, a great surf coach. But yeah, it is a difficult job. Um, but I, you know, I think on an extension to that is. Surfers that are listening to this, the surfers that come, come to me are, are growth-minded.

It, it's, it's like you said, it's like a mindset. You are looking at art versus sport, but I think it's more just almost like a learning mindset. Are you open-minded? Are you, a growth kind of mindset? In which case, yeah, you're gonna get better at really anything you do. , You're gonna try to find resources to get better at those things.

Whereas a fixed mindset, they're kind of just happy where they're at. You know, they don't really want change until a, a, something devastating possibly happens. You know, like they get an injury. Yeah. Or. They, they're not able to get up to the feet anymore, or they're not able to catch waves anymore, or, you know, something stirs that there's an event that happens that then stirs them to become more growth minded.

Um, and, and I find that, it's funny when I, when I do, I do little trips, um, with clients and they're like, oh man, everybody's so cool on this trip. Like, where do you find all these people? I'm like, I, I don't, they come to me, you know? But I think there's a way in which I share my information that kind of weeds out the fixed minded folks from the growth minded folks.

And I think that's one thing I've, I've very happy that I feel like I've designed that and I get the best clients out of it, which is, you know, and they're not just, they're not just great to work with. They're just good people. You know? They're always wanting to learn and they're challenging me all the time, which is fantastic too.

So, uh, yeah, it's been a, it's been a fun ride, I think you said. Earlier you're like, wow. I think our first conversation in 2016, I started the in-person in 2015. I started the online and virtual coaching in 2011. So it's been a long time and, and there's been a, a bit of evolution and back then it was really just about helping surfers catch more waves was less effort.

That was always the tagline. And then it, it, it evolved into kind of helping them catch waves at that point. 'cause as we've discussed, 90% of the paddling we do is just paddling around. Right. And I, I think within the last. Two years or so, I, I've realized that my overall philosophy is I just want to create lazy surfers, and I, let me explain what I mean by that.

But it's basically, I want them to be able to catch the most ways with the least amount of effort. And what I found is that there's an extraordinary amount of energy waste that's happening in the ocean with surfers. And they're, they're really, if you look at it, there's three main areas where surfers.

Waste the most energy and it's one is paddling. And a lot of that can be cleaned up through technique first, and then there's also fitness on top of that can help. So that's, that's the number one thing. That's level one, right? That's, that's my level one. But then level two goes into the other two areas and, uh, another area where surfers burn a lot of energy and they don't really have to, they're just inefficient with their energy is wave catching.

So you could, you can work really, really hard and not catch the wave. That's the ultimate waste. You could work really, really hard and then go over the falls. That's, you know, it's wave catching and kind of popping up. Both of those are together, you know, standing up. If they're not fluid with that, if they don't have control, they're bored, then they're gonna burn energy 'cause they're gonna end up in the impact zone.

You could even see advanced surface that do catch waves, but they're taking 10, 11, 12 strokes to get it. That's ineff inefficient. So something in that process can be improved. So that's the second area where I see just tons of surfers burning a lot of energy. And then the last area that I realized just in the last couple years when I've kind of refined level two is getting out strategy and technique.

And it's, some of that's paddling. Yes, but, but the strategy of getting out, I can't tell you how many times I've seen this. Surfer catches first, second wave of the set, gets to the inside, turns around, immediately starts paddling back out. There's still a set coming in, there's still waves coming in, and they're going towards the impact zone.

Thinking in their mind that they're going to make it to the last wave and get the last wave of the set. Now you're laughing because you know what, in reality, you know, 99% of the time they do make it out and then the way the ocean goes flat, right? And they're like, oh, thank goodness I made it out. But what an extraordinary amount of wasted energy, you know, after your wave just kind of hang out.

Wait, you can duck dive, you can turtle ro, you can sea anchor all these waves with less energy and then wait for the set to pass and then go out, right? Yeah. And that's just, that's just one example of just getting out strategy and technique that there, there's, there's an extraordinary amount of waste that's happening.

Uh, and so level, level one is all about that first one technique. And then level two. Now really the main focus, the main goal is saving energy in those other areas. It's, it's wave catching and it's popping up and it's getting out. And, uh, it's been really fun to kind of go down that route with surfers because I start to introduce 'em in level one.

And then by the time I get to level two, they're, they're piecing it all together. And now they're like, a lot of 'em are kind of angry. They're like, man, I used to use surfing as like an exercise. Now I am the ultimate lazy surfer and not spending a lot of time, uh, a lot of energy, um, surfing, which, uh, which is really fun.

So for me, kind of the end of my journey is once I finish the level two online class, that's kind of my next big project. The book was a huge project for me. And then once the online level two is done, then I'll, I won't stop. I'll just, there's no more growing for me in that respect. And then I'll just kind of figure out what that point, what's, what's the next kind of coaching growth for me.

But that's, that's my overall goal. Um. Really just came to me in the process of writing this book and, and conducting a lot of level twos lately.

Michael Frampton: Oh cool. Yeah, that's a great tip. Yeah, I didn't even articulate, but I realize I do do that. If I catch the first wave of a set and I want to paddle back out, I don't, I just stay 'cause the wave breaks and it dissipates.

You can just kind of stay on the inside and glide over or gently duck dive the white water and all that water's coming in, it's gotta go back out. So the last wave of the set, once I've duck dive that, that's when I put in the paddling effort and you, you're going with the water drawing back out and you probably only have to duck dive the, you know, the, the secondary waves that are in between the main swell sets.

Exactly.

Rob Case: Yeah. And it's crazy. And it goes back to what you're talking about is, is being obsessed with learning about the ocean. If, if you don't know what's in the water that day, what, what? Types of swells, what periods, what direction you, you're already at a disadvantage because if, if someone listens to this right now and they're like, okay, every time I catch a wave, I'm gonna wait on the inside.

But they don't realize it's a short period swell and there's no real break, then what's the strategy? You know? Exactly. You know, like if they're not aware of where the currents are flowing, what's their strategy like, they're just gonna burn energy. Uh, and that I, I like you, I just nerd out on the oceanography side of it and learning more about the ocean.

And as experienced surfers, I think you were the one that said it when you took level two with me in the very early days, you were like, yeah, this is great information. It was something that I kind of already knew. An experienced surfer and you were like, I think a lot of experienced surfers know this stuff, but we couldn't connect the why right Now we can connect their why.

Like, okay, now I get it, why we would do this. But you ultimately learned it through all the years of learning about the ocean and learning about waves and learning and just getting out there in trial and error, which was really, I remember that you, you telling me that and I was like, oh, that's a

Michael Frampton: really, really good point.

Mm-hmm. Well, it goes back to what we started the conversation with is if, if you, if you grew up on the east coast of Australia and your dad and your uncle surfed and you've had a surfboard since you were four years old, by the time you are, by the time you are 17. You've got so much experience, you've picked up so much from your elders that you don't even realize and you don't even know what you, so of course you can go to Bali and just get on the tangs and go out and get barreled at double overhead waves, of course, without even thinking.

You don't have to nerd out about any of this stuff. But the listeners of this show are most likely didn't surf that much when they were younger, or probably more likely started as as adults. So you've got like 12, 15 years worth of information to try and pack in as an adult with a, a non rubbery body.

Yeah, you have to, if you want to get, if you truly really wanna get good at surfing, you have to start getting into some of the weeds and the details of this stuff. Uh, 'cause you didn't have that luxury as a 4-year-old with a, a dad who, who, who surfs living next to the beach. So I think culturally that's, that's part of it.

Um, and. It's amazing what you can, when you start breaking it down, it's amazing how fast and quickly you can learn. And once you know what to look for in the ocean, then yeah, you're gonna learn so much faster. That's, I think it's an advantage, like the experience in that, that adult brain, you can learn a lot faster than a kid learns in some ways.

Well,

Rob Case: when there's, yeah. When there's, explicit instruction, and that's what you and I are guiding more adults with, and that's what the really, the book is. It's funny when I have, uh, parents bring their kind of up and coming competitive kids and they're, you know, they're like 10, 11, and they're like, I really want you to teach my kid about paddling technique.

I was like, okay. They'll go through the whole level one course in like 20 minutes. Like they're, they get it like that. Their neuroplasticity is so fluid and I don't need to tell them anything explicit. I just say, all right, get in the pool. Okay. What do you feel? Okay. Straighten that arm out. Okay, do it again.

Whereas with an adult, I have to explain, okay, this is, these are the drag forces you're experiencing. This is why we need to do this. And as an adult, we process so many more things, but we learn explicitly versus the implicit learning of a child who can go out and just do trial and error. And that's, even yesterday, I was in the ocean with a client and I said, I said, listen, there's, there's a certain point where you need to be less hesitant to go because you think you're going to fall, and then you need to be less precious with the waves you surf because.

You're not going to progress. You need to be a kid sometimes and just try stuff. Right. And as adults, like kids don't care. Like they really don't care if they fall. They're like, Hey, check this out. Boom. And be precious with your strokes and be a little bit more wasteful with the waves that you surf and you'll progress a lot faster that way.

And he was like, oh yeah, I think I could be a kid. I was like, I know you can

Michael Frampton: be a kid. Mm. That's a good way to put it. Be more, more precious with your strokes. Less precious with your waves.

Rob Case: Exactly. It's hard though. It's really hard when you're waiting. Five minutes, 10 minutes. Yeah. A good one. Oh man. Yeah, it's really hard.

Even I have trouble with that one.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. No, but I think that to add to that, it's we can be really, as adults, we kids sort of. Yeah. 'cause they don't care. They're not as obsessed with watching the ocean. But I think as adults we can really, like I remember when I first started surfing in the east coast of Australia, and I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge, and you're in a lineup with a lot of good surfers sitting there waiting for a set.

And then all of a sudden Nathan Hedge starts paddling like a madman. And he's like, oh, why is he paddling? And then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set coming. He saw it before everyone else. Why? Yeah, because he was just sitting, he wasn't just sitting there waiting for this set. He's just scanning that little sliver of ocean looking for the tiniest little bit of detail.

So he sees the set coming before anyone else. 'cause he's, 'cause he wants it more than any anyone else.

Rob Case: I think they also have, uh, an innate sense of timing and we haven't seen a set in a while. I was talking about this, um, a few days ago where someone was like, if we haven't seen a set in a while, what do you, do you think one might be coming?

You know, like, we've been surfing, kind of these inside ones we've been drifting. Do you think we should take a few extra strokes out just in case? And he's like, oh yeah, that's a point. And like almost on cue I it, look, I look like a magician, a set up here. But it was, you know, like you'll sense it too. But his sensitivity is probably heightened, you know, it's, it's, it's like his sensitivity on the board itself through all that experience.

Oh, for

Michael Frampton: sure. I think that's definitely part of, I, I also think that his. Eye for detail is far more nuanced than he even realizes. Yeah. Do you know like maybe a, a shimmer on some rock out? Because when you're looking at the ocean, it's this tiny little sliver. Yeah. Yeah. Like when we see those pho photographs taken from up high, you know, we can see the lines stacked out the back and the shapes of each set and stuff.

And, but we have such a different perspective when we're sitting in the water. But I think great surfers can look at that sliver in a far greater detail without them even realizing. Yeah. And yeah, sometimes it's instinct. They're like, oh, has it been a set in a while? The rhythm of the sets has been like this.

I'm gonna paddle out. Or sometimes they see a little, whether it's a glimmer or a rebound of a headland in the distance or, or something, they just, their eye picks that up without them realizing it. They, they just feel like they should paddle out the back. Yeah. So what I always tell people as an adult surfer, you have the ability to, to, to focus on that sliver like a madman.

Yes. And that, that's one advantage you have over over kids is like, you have the ability to to really, to focus better. And so when you're surfing, don't just sit out the back waiting for a wave. Focus on the horizon, focus on that sliver of water. A BSI say a b, s always be surfing, always be predicting when the wave is coming, where the next set's gonna break.

And it goes back to what you said. You know, if you've, if you've looked at the different, all the, the seven different swells that are in the water on the surf line, on the detailed part of the surf line report and you know there's a secondary and a tertiary swell and you kind of know what to look for if you know what the tide's doing and the way that the rips move at your local beach because you know what to be looking for.

You know, the way that a southerly swell refracts off the headland when it's 15 seconds, you know, to be looking for the double ups or the more. You look for, the more you understand that those details exist, the more you can look for them. And I think that helps us to focus more while we're waiting.

Rob Case: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: Which again comes back to efficiency. 'cause then you know when to paddle.

Rob Case: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great point. I, I'm just thinking of these little kids that, you're right, they don't have this focus. They're, they're honestly like within maybe a five meter radius, they're like wave, wave, wave, wave. Right. And it's like a dog looking for a squirrel.

It's like squirrel, right? And then they just go and they surf it and they just go and surf it and that's how they learn Super quick. It's spurred a thought in me to that maybe the audience might be helpful, is something you said earlier is, is identifying, okay, where are you at on your journey and finding waves that will help you to that next step, right?

So if you're looking for waves that are airwaves. You're really just trying to work on your bottom turn. You're looking for the wrong type of wave, the wrong surf spot, right? And so you're not gonna get the reps that you need for the bottom turn or for the top turn, or for just getting to your feet or just paddling around, um, getting a sense for the wave picking you up.

So I, I talk a lot to my clients and I'm sure you talk the same, is like, there are certain conditions that you're, this is your wheelhouse. You're looking for a wave that might give you one or two turns. Do you need to go to all the beautiful point breaks? And battle the crowd and sit and wait for 30 minutes before you even get a chance at maybe getting a sliver of one.

No, you can go find something that has maybe one or two turn sections or maybe just a closeout if that's what you're working on, is just getting your feet right and you're going to get way more quality reps in a shorter amount of time than having to deal with it. Now, I always get pushback like, oh, but those waves are so much better.

It's like, yeah, I get that, but are you gonna go for, you know, 50 to a hundred meters and not do anything? Like again? Now you're back to not progressing. And so I think for me personally, there are sessions when I'm working on progression and I'm really focused and then there are sessions where I just wanna surf and have fun and just glide.

I think we talked about this last time 'cause you talked about your 12 foot glider and, uh. There. I think it depends on how you're feeling, but in terms of progression, you really do wanna align where you're at and where, what's that next step? And that's where you need a coach to tell you, tell you, yeah.

That wave that you keep trying to sit at and you're, you know, in Santa Cruz and there's a hundred people on the point and you're waiting your turn for the, the wave of the day, you're missing lots of opportunities, right? Yeah. To get better. And so your, your timeline is gonna be much longer.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, kids that they'll be sitting on the inside or they'll be sitting at a beach break, just a.

Goofing around having fun. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Taking everything,

Rob Case: yes. Like literally every, we were, I was doing a level two in, uh, in Santa Cruz, and it was in the afternoon, and one of the locals, it was only like five of us at the, at the, the main point. And I was, I was like, this is great. We got, we got our pick the litter, we got sets, we got inside, we got middle, we got tons of reps.

And then this one local was like, uhoh school just got out. And I was like, I saw like one or two kids battle out. And I was like, oh, that's not bad. It's not bad. He was like, oh, the surf team's coming. And I was like, all of a sudden, like 30 kids, and I, I'm not even kidding. It was like 30 kids and they took every bump that came through and they dropped in on each other and they were having the best time.

And there were a few rippers in the group, but the rest of 'em were just kind of just. Just cruising along and having fun. And you're right, they're just like,

Michael Frampton: they're just like,

Rob Case: swirl, swirl, swirl, swirl.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I think for adults there's, there's a happy medium. 'cause obviously they've got boundless energy and super quick recovery times.

They can wake up the next day and do it all again and

Rob Case: do it all again. Yeah.

Michael Frampton: So as adults, we wanna look for that efficiency in, and that's to an advantage in some ways. Uh, 'cause we, we have that awareness. , But I mean, it's a great point. If you, if you really, I think the, the popup or the takeoff is surfing's hardest and most important maneuver.

Rob Case: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: I love that. You can, that maneuver,

Rob Case: I tell people all the time, I tell people all the time, it's a maneuver. Yeah. Like, you see very beautiful takeoffs and you see really ugly takeoffs. You see really fast takeoffs. You see really slow takeoffs. And there's, they all have, uh, a nuance to them. And the ones that you see are what we would consider maybe the best quote unquote, um.

They're the ones that, um, they have function as well as kind of an art to it, right? Oh, yeah. So that's, I agree with

Michael Frampton: you completely, that that one's the most overlooked. It's also the most physically demanding and dynamic maneuver in surfing. I mean, you watch, I mean, someone like Aki exaggerates how little you need to move your body.

Watch AKI surf. Don't watch him surf. Watch his, what his body does, he's compressing and extending very little. He moves his arms a little bit, but has just his lean and his subtle twist. The timing doesn't, he barely moves. Yeah. So going from lying down on That's a really good point. Yeah. From lying, lying down on your stomach to getting to your feet.

That is the hardest part of surfing. Yeah. The rest of it's all about timing and, and subtlety and that, that's stuff you can, gosh, you can work on a skateboard or you can work on front of a mirror really, if you're, if you're obsessed enough. And that's something I, I recommend doing, but what's the point if you can't read the ocean and paddle efficiently and get the rep Yeah.

Get the potential opportunity to do that. Yeah. And, and, and pop up properly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's something you learn that isn't in your YouTube videos whilst you're, um, going through the process of writing your book?

Rob Case: , What's not in the, the YouTube or the online course?

Michael Frampton: Yeah.

Rob Case: Or just in general. , Yeah.

Michael Frampton: I'm just wondering if there's any, the book writing details that came out. Book,

Rob Case: I think the main thing was making sure, well there was a new technique that I started teaching, , about near the end of completion of the book that I finally was able to kind of just explicitly kind of right out.

So there, there were some things that were coming out that were new. And I don't know if you've seen the bibliography. There's a lot of documents back there from what I pull all the information from. And so, , I, I think it was funny that the, the biggest thing I learned was that it's okay to have a version two.

Because at this point I was just delaying and procrastinating the release of the book. Like I had, I had written the manuscript years ago, and then I just kept saying to myself, oh, well, I need it to be perfect. I need it to be perfect. Uh, I need to make sure that, you know, all the information's spot on, that the, it's all, you know, we have the references in the back and that I include this in that.

And, um, I, I, I hired a professional editor. We went through it two or three times. I've hired a professional illustrator, , you know, and I just kind of kept procrastinating the full release. And I was like, oh, well now I have to format it. Oh, what font should I use? How, how big is the spacing? And I obsessed, I obsessed over this.

And, and really all it was was procrastination. And I realized that. You know, I, I got, you know, 3, 4, 5 different author versions of it and I re-read through it and I was like, okay, it's perfect time to release. And I release it and I get the first batch and I find a typo. And I'm like, damn it, are you kidding me?

Like, and it, and, and the funny thing, the lesson I learned from that was, you know, it's, , I, I could have, I could, you know, fix it and then reprint. , I can definitely do that, but I'm gonna keep it because I like the, I like the idea that it's I'm human and that it has mistakes and it's okay. It doesn't change the meaning of the paragraph that it's in.

It doesn't change the meaning of the book or the, the main content. It's not even in the main content. It's near the fringes of it. Um, but all that procrastination, I did it. It was, and all this worrying really wasn't for anything. You know, it was just a waste of my, um, my own energy. I wasn't being efficient with my energy.

But, , yeah, that was probably the biggest thing I learned throughout the whole process is you hear that it's really, really hard. The actual physical and mental writing of the book is not hard. The formatting's not hard. I, the fact that I've never done it before that what was hard about it? It was, it was, you know, self-conscious.

It was, . It was scary. It was vulnerable. Now it's in print. Right. For some reason with the videos, even though, yeah, they're, they're recorded and they're published. I could take them down, right? Mm. Now it's in print. Now it's now it's like, feels much more permanent. So I felt this, this need and this responsibility to make it perfect and then at the end, it's not perfect.

And I, I find beauty in that and I find like, that's awesome. You know, and, and hopefully, like, hopefully this sparks kind of a fire under some people's bottoms to go and do more research in this area. You know, we, we have some research in paddling. There's some research in technique, the university I've been talking to, and in Australia and in, uh, here in California and in Europe there's some, but there needs to be more, there needs to be a lot more and.

If you look at kind of the journey that swim research went through in the sixties, it kind of started out with a coach. A coach that had, was kind of scientifically minded, was like, I'm gonna challenge these, these assumptions we all have, and put a little bit of structure to him and really work on these experiments.

Now, he wasn't academically trained to do experiments. Um, he became later on academically trained, but that sparked it all. And then they did a reprint in the nineties. His son actually did a reprint of everything with the new technology and the new research that's been done. But that was the thing that kind of pioneered it was in the sixties and it's still still going on today with new technology, new research.

So if you look at, you know, from the sixties all the way to today, that's several decades. You know, we're, we're, we're that swimming, which is heavily covered. Still hasn't really finished, they haven't made it to the finish line of what is 100% true. In fact, fact, they're still tinkering. Hmm. And we're at the beginning of surfing, you know, and it's not just paddling technique, but it's all surfing.

Like there should, if, if this can spark a fire under the academics, but to, to, to start doing more and more testing of this. I want them to challenge these things. I want them to academically with good rigor, do these things. And if I'm wrong, I'm happy to be wrong. , I'll do a version two, I'll add their study to the back.

Right. That's what this hopefully will spark. I'm crossing my fingers that it does something to get somebody to do something about it. . Because there needs to be more, to your point, like other sports, they have decades. They're decades ahead of us.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. You see that new company with a, they've got a tail pad that's pressure sensitive and has a gyroscope in it.

Rob Case: No.

Michael Frampton: So they can That's awesome. Yeah. So you can get, um, you know, realtime feedback of what pressure is on the, which part of the tail pad and the board angle. Fantastic. And the board and the board speed. That's fantastic. Yeah. That is it. That's what we need. That's what we want. Yeah. Yeah. I see that. I think they've released it yet.

I think it's called Tracks with an X. It popped up on my, on my Instagram. That's great. Just to see what they do with that.

Rob Case: Absolutely. And who's gonna get involved in that? Like, you know, I, I, I've been working with a few people that are doing some new technology with video, , AI stuff where they can take, you know, really good surfer, just a video of them and overlay your movement on top of them and really break down all the lidio little nuances like you've talked about the difference between you versus me on the same place on that wave.

Um, for example, I think that would. Again, it's more information and then we have to go apply it,

Michael Frampton: right? . Oh, is there an ai ver like coach's eye is what? There's this software that's been used for that a lot, but if there's an AI that's, is it AI that's sort of doing it faster? So it's a,

Rob Case: it's a camera that actually, , you know, all like Flow State.

You have Flow State, at Urban Surf or you know, where, where it, it identifies a surfer just based off of their surfboard or their Yeah. What they're wearing. And then it sorts their videos. . So it does that, but then it tracks every movement of the surfer and it has stock images of the, of a pro surfer on the same wave.

Oh, cool. And then it tracks it about the same location. Oh. And then you can see kind of an overlay of one over the other. And you can be like, yeah, see you're way out here on the shoulder, and they're back here in the pocket. Right. And they're turning their shoulder at this point, and you've. Already turned your shoulder or you haven't turned it yet.

So stuff like that. And I think that's, that's coming online. I think there's more and more use cases for that. , But yeah, the track pad, I think, I think that's, the camera stuff I think is very flashy. It's very useful in real time, but there still needs to be academic rigor behind it. Right. To to, to really solidify that.

Okay. Yeah. That's, that's what everybody should do because there are, there are unique athletes out there that make a certain movement and it is not actually proven scientific. Like Michael Phelps is a very asymmetric swimmer. He breathes, , his strokes are not even, he does one longer stroke than the other.

He kind of always does that longer stroke and then a quick stroke, and then longer stroke and quick stroke, and yet he gets some pretty darn good results. Right? Mm. So how can you say that he, he is the absolute best swimmer in the world with the best technique. He's the best swimmer in the world. Yes. But what is the, the technique that can be replicated towards the, the recreational swimmer or the lower age swimmer?

Michael Frampton: Well, it's something the human body's not symmetrical as much as we'd like to think it is. It's not, you know, your heart sits further to the left. Your liver's on the right hand side, you have one dom neurologically. You have one hand that's more dominant and stronger as well. And that those could be different sides.

You'll have bone length discrepancies. So as much as we strive for symmetry, uh, it's, it's nice to think about and, and aim for, but it's also not possible. So it is, it's dependent. Right. And like you said, with surfing, gosh. This person's height difference and the type of board they're riding is gonna change their, their surfing technique.

And of course that their, their technique might be part of their style and that's what's different about them. I think there are certain, there certainly are certain fundamentals, you know, where you place your board that is the most powerful part of the wave and that sort of stuff. Um, yeah, but no, there, there is a lot of room for, for improvement.

I think the biggest thing is, is like, it, sometimes it doesn't matter when, at least my experience personally and with other clients, it doesn't matter when and where you're putting your bottom turn. If you are, if you don't even realize how scared you are or how stro, I, I call it trooping. I dunno if you've ever experienced a wave where it was filmed maybe in a, in, it's a, it's a five second wave, let's say, but it felt like it was half a second.

And you have the, your memory of it is strobe. Like it was just flashes. Then sometimes when you are surfing and you're in the zone, a five second waves feels like 10 seconds and you knew what your hand was doing. Yeah. Time slowed down. That's to get to that point, I think that, that you'd need a lot of confidence in the water.

Rob Case: Yeah.

Michael Frampton: And comfort feel, and comfort in the water. Whereas I think even, even subconsciously, we don't realize how scared we are in, in, in the ocean a lot of the times.

Rob Case: Yeah. No, I, I, I see that with paddling. Again, I, I kind of stop once they're standing, but you'll, uh, every once in a while I'll see a client that you can definitely tell I have to pull 'em back to the beach and just have a little, you know, real time with them and say, you know, what's going, what's really going on?

Because like when I see what's beautiful about when I get to work with someone in person is I get to see them in the pool and I'll, I'll have them go through the pool and I can see. The body movements, the body language that is relaxed, that is comfortable, it's controlled. We put 'em out on the lagoon, a little less controlled.

Maybe they tense up, maybe they don't. When this thinking in the ocean, that's a lot of people are, why are you doing the ocean stuff? It's like, well, I want to see how the movement changes once you're in that environment. And it inevitably always changes. And it might not be a comfort thing. It could be they're just distracted with, again, squirrels, they're like, you know, squirreling not thinking about anything else.

But yeah, every once in a while I have to pull a a client aside and be like, what's really going on? Like, where's the fear coming from? And their movement vastly changes just from paddling. Oh yeah. Let alone if they're on a wave. Yeah. Again, I miss your

Michael Frampton: job. Shame and anxiety comes into play a lot with surfing because it's always done in a public place.

Yeah. You can't practice by yourself. And if you can, you prob you probably shouldn't be out there by yourself. It's dangerous. But you know, when you are surfing, you're, there's someone watching. And I think that's the beauty with kids is they don't care. They're just nah, having fun. So their bodies are relaxed and they're, and they're in the, in in the moment.

And I think that's one of the hardest parts in surfing to improve is being focused and present in the moment so that you can change your technique and you this, this fear and the shame and there's all sorts of factors that contribute to that. But , back to it's why you

Rob Case: say that, you know, I'll bring something up real quick, Mike, sorry to interrupt you, but, um.

There's, there's, there's a lot of people watching you in the lineup and there's a lot of judgment. And I think that's where like the shame and the anxiety comes from. But one of the things that I've realized is that they're looking at you just because of, , personal selfish reasons. They just want to see if they can get more waves for themselves.

They don't really care about you and what you're doing. They just want more waves. Exactly. And so I started looking at it that way and I'm like, oh, well they don't really care if I have really good style or bad sell. They're just judging me if they can get waves exactly from me. And that's it. That's it.

That's, that's where it ends. That's where their thought ends. Like they're not breaking down every little thing. And you know, when people get anxiety about like, oh, you know, they saw me botch that turns like they didn't really care. Right. They didn't care about any of that. They just wanted to know if they were gonna drop in on you or not.

That's it.

Michael Frampton: Yep. That is it. Like we've all got a friend who you've been surfing with and you've seen them not surf to their potential. Did it matter? Did you not be friends with them? Did you care? Right. Did you No, it's, no one actually cares. It is all in our head. It's like other, we put our, our judgment of what other pe of the way other people are judging us.

Like it's all in our head. Even what? Yes. And you, you're just imagining what they're judging. Yeah. But in reality, yeah. They're just wondering. They're just hoping you fall off so they can take the wave. They don't care about how you're surfing or anything like that.

Rob Case: Absolutely.

Michael Frampton: And the irony is, you know, it, it is a, there is a competence hierarchy in surfing, so the best surfers tend to get the best waves.

Or not even, it's not even that is it. It's the best. It's the best at catching and reading the ocean that get the most waves because

Rob Case: you, well, and then they, they, they get reinforced when they surf the wave. Well, everyone's like, oh, well th that was really cool. I wanna watch them again, or I'm gonna let them have the next one because kind of surf is, I don't wanna waste it.

Right. I've seen that as well.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. But that it, you, if you define surfing it well, not, it doesn't have to be ripping or shredding. It could be you're just doing some nice smooth Yeah, nice smooth turns in rhythm with the ocean. That's still, that's still good surfing. And that's a lot of what I've been talking about recently is like, well, yeah, in order to enjoy surfing properly, you need to define what good surfing means to you.

Maybe it is just. Standing there and doing some little turns in rhythm with the wave and having a relaxed body. 'cause that's still really good surfing. You don't have to go there out there on a shortboard and try and pretend that you are, uh, in a competition that's such a small, small and that tends to frustrate a lot of people.

Whereas, you know, I prefer to watch Torin Martin or Devin Howard Surf Surf nowadays. Mm-hmm. Seems more relatable,

Rob Case: kind of. Yeah. You said something earlier about how like the pros are constantly trying to improve. , The pros are just as insecure as we are, but just on a different level. Yeah. , It's, it's crazy how the more I get to work with them.

The more you realize they're just like us in terms of that insecurity, and you're sitting there going, man, you shred. You are amazing surfer. Don't, why are you stressing this much? Oh, that guy's so much better than me. Why do you think he's better than me? Oh, because he is a better paddler than me. I was like, hold on a second.

You're associating his paddling with his surfing now. Like, yeah. You know, those are not, they're mutually exclusive. He could be a really good paddler and not a good surfer, not as good as you, but at that elite level, at that 1% level, that that could make all the difference. And so that's. It's interesting you brought that up.

And I just wanted the audience to know that these pros and these good surfers, they're just as insecure as we are, just on a different level.

Michael Frampton: And they also Yeah, that's a good point. But it's more nuanced because their insecurity and, and all that stuff, it remains outside of them surfing a wave. 'cause when they're on the wave, they're present and they're surfing the wave.

Mm-hmm. Now they might go back and watch the footage and go, oh fuck, I, I need to do, I need to just like

Rob Case: us. Yeah. And,

Michael Frampton: and they'll put the time in outside of surfing and they'll trust that the, the work they've put in outside of surfing a wave will translate. But when they're on the wave, they're present.

And when they're surfing, they've, they've forgot about that wave. It doesn't matter. I'll, I'll work on it outside of, or I like the, the analogy of the musician, when you're playing in a band with your friends, you're listening to the drummer and you're trying to. Be better at the song. As soon as you start thinking, oh, am I in time?

Am I doing this right? Well, there's nothing you can do about it, right? You, you're playing the song together. You might as well focus and be the best you can in that moment. And if you think you need to be better, well you go, go home and practice. Go away and practice. So I think good professionals in any, whether it's music or surfing or any sport, they have the ability to separate those things.

They don't let that anxiety and that self doubt creep into their actual performances and their experience. They work on that outside of that. Whereas I, I think that's a big part of what separates the, the good from the great is sometimes we let that stuff creep into our actual surfing experiences and we are worried about what people look or how we are looking when we're actually surfing the wave.

And then the opposite of a flow state happens, time seems to speed up and we get that trooping effect.

Rob Case: Is the ultimate kind of present state when you do it in that flow state. And I, I, I always assimilate like Steph Curry, 'cause he's so big here, he's not thinking about his shot when he throws it up and he immediately forgets about a miss or a make, and the very next moment he's off to the next thing.

And then like I, we've been watching a lot of NBA the last few years and when you see a player really get into a kind of a funk, they have, they're no longer in that moment anymore. They're thinking about those little things in the moment and they're not going back and just relying, like you said, relying upon the training outside of it.

But the difference is, and I use this analogy a lot with people, Steph Curry can, can, after a game, if he had a bad free throw game, he can go and shoot free throws over and over and over again and really practice, practice, practice. Tough for us to, to shoot free throws on a surfboard, uh, metaphorically speaking.

Yeah. The same section over and over again. And that's where wave pools, I think help a bit. There's at least some sense of repetition in the waves, so you can do the same thing over and over again. Yeah. Um,

Michael Frampton: well, you also, you have to be a bit, and you used have, you also have to be a bit more creative. You know, there's plenty of dry land training, like, I mean, that's what on my website, there's a free PDF where we break down with here's what a popup is.

Here's how you practice it in slow motion forwards and backwards. I've got videos and all that stuff so you can get creative and practice your, your popup technique, the mobility of it, the strength of it, the control of it, where your eyes are looking the whole way through it, that sort of stuff. You can practice that on dry land.

You can get a skateboard and practice some of the surfing techniques. You can join Brad Acks wave key thing. You can read Rob Case's book on surfing paddling and watch all of his surfing videos in order to understand what is efficient paddling, what is, what are, what are some hydrodynamic principles and all of that stuff.

I think so we can, there's so much out there that we can look at outside of our surfing time. Um, yeah, and that comes back to something that I, when I first started this podcast, I was obsessed with surfing and that those years. That's what I was doing. I was watching videos, I was learning about stuff. I was skateboarding when, when the waves were flat.

I was, so yeah, we, we don't get to practice, um, on a wave that much. Or like you said, I mean wave pools are changing that somewhat. But that's expensive. But there's so much else we can do. Yeah. We've been able to, we have to get

Rob Case: creative, like you said, we had to get creative over the years. 'cause that's also the uniqueness of surfing is that every wave is unique.

It is a one, you know, that one moment in time will not happen again on that wave, in that exact place. Even in a wave pool, all the waves are nuanced, a little bit different. Right. So it's so unique. And that's what we love about surfing as well. Exactly. That's why it's the greatest teacher of being in the present.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think because it's so unique and rare, that's what makes it special. But I think because of that reason, all that work that you put in. To finally get there makes all, all the difference. And then you feel confident to book a trip to the tropics with, you know, 18 second period swells. 'cause you're confident paddler and you've done your underwater training and you, you're strong and you're fit.

And, uh, you know, this, I it's so exciting. Surfing is, uh, you can, I mean, even Kelly Slater himself still wants to get better, right? This,

Rob Case: yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

Michael Frampton: They still wanna improve. There is, there is no, there's no ceiling. Yeah. Surfing. There's

Rob Case: perfect, there's no perfect in surfing.

Michael Frampton: No, not at all., Rob, what's the, what's your website?

Rob Case: Surfing paddling.com. Pretty simple. Just remember the ING after surfing. Yep. Surfing petman.com. Okay, great. And that's where, that's where people can get, you know, access to the book. With the book. I have, , there's a link on there if you sign up through that link, you get three free videos that help illustrate some of the principles that I outlined in the book.

, And then later on I send you a little discount code for the online course that helps further, you know, connect the words to visuals, , if you can't come work with me here or wherever I end up in the world. But yeah, lots of, lots of resources at the website. That's the main place to get it.

Michael Frampton: Yep. Okay.

Awesome. , Listeners, if you want to to learn, , the audio version of some of the details of paddling technique, you can go back to episode 12 of this podcast, our original episode, and you can go to Rob's YouTube channel as well. And of course surfing paddling.com for everything else. There will be links to that in the show notes.

And, , Rob, thank you so much for your time. It was great talking with you, Mike. Appreciate it. Alright. Be well buddy.

The Surf Mastery Podcast: 

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

Struggling to stand up quickly and smoothly on your surfboard? Your popup might be the one skill holding your surfing back.

The popup—your transition from paddling to riding—is the hardest maneuver in surfing and the foundation of every great ride. If yours is slow, clumsy, or inconsistent, it’s costing you waves, confidence, and how others see you in the lineup. But with the right approach, you can build a fast, stable popup even if you started surfing later in life.

• Learn why a smooth, athletic popup sets the tone for your entire ride.

• Discover dry-land exercises that develop the exact strength, mobility, and control needed for a flawless takeoff.

• Get a step-by-step reverse training method to make your popup faster, more stable, and more consistent.

Press play now to unlock the techniques and training drills that will transform your popup—and every wave you catch.

Summary:
Your popup is the foundation of every great ride—and one of the hardest skills to master in surfing. In this episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, host Michael Frampton breaks down why the popup is so critical, what’s really happening during the movement, and how to train it effectively on land. You’ll learn the common mistakes that slow surfers down, how to build the strength and mobility needed for a lightning-fast takeoff, and the reverse training method that can transform your consistency in the water. Whether you’re a late starter or looking to sharpen your fundamentals, these practical drills will help you catch more waves and surf with greater confidence.

Transcript:

Michael Frampton: Welcome back, or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps passionate, lifelong surfers to catch more waves and to surf with more speed, style, grace. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and today we are talking about the popup, AKA, the takeoff. It is the hardest maneuver in surfing. And it's the one thing in surfing that demands the most athleticism.

Going from lying prone to getting to your feet without changing the way that the board moves through the water, or losing sight of the way the wave is breaking. That is hard. It takes a lot of athleticism to do that. And your popup isn't just about getting to your feet, it's also your entry into the wave.

If it's slow or unstable, everything after that suffers. It's kind of like singing a song. You've got to hit that first note. Now, if your popup feels slow or clumsy or inconsistent, not only is it costing you waves, it's costing your perception in the lineup. Are you a competent surfer that doesn't waste waves?

Or are you looked at as a kook? Now all good surfers have a good popup. I remember my first filmed surf coaching session, and that was the first thing we talked about was my popup. And until I saw the footage and spoke with the surf coach after, I didn't realize how bad mine was or. Really what a good one look like.

I'm so glad that that particular surf coach picked it up so early on and after that, 'cause my background is in personal training and and and movement development. I spent hours in the gym after that developing the strength and mobility to be able to do a fast and smooth popup on dry land. And that is the one thing that has changed my surfing the most.

Maybe aside from reading the ocean better. That pop up getting that. It just does wonders for your confidence 'cause getting to your feet fast and smooth. If you can do that, you have so much more. Trust in yourself to paddle into waves and to get to your feet with good timing. Getting your front leg underneath your chest and transferring that body weight from your ribs to your hands to your front foot, whilst still looking at the wave and keeping the board planing through the water at.

With without bouncing or wobbling. It's really, really hard to do, and it's a very specific movement skill that that needs to be developed. Now. Most great surfers started very young and their bodies could do it when they were young, and as they grew they sort of maintained that skill. But I, like many of other people out there, started late in life.

I was already fully grown before I started surfing, and I had to develop that movement skill. I've also trained a lot of adult beginners to develop that movement skill on dry land, and I cannot stress how important it is. The good news is that you can develop a good popup on dry land. It's not easy, but it is simple.

How do you do that? Let's start by understanding a little bit more about what the popup is. When you're surfing, you are, you're paddling, so most of your body weight is going through the center of the board through your chest. Now, as you feel the wave start to pick you up and and your board speed change, then you transfer that body weight from your chest to your hands and then onto your front foot.

Now it's a little more nuanced than that, but that's basically what it is. How do we train this? Or more specifically, how do we develop the ability to do this movement with control and agility? I would start by lying on the floor and lie down on your stomach as if you're paddling a surfboard, most of your body weight going through your ribs, and then bring your hands close to your chest and start to do a pushup.

And then as you get to the top of the pushup, you bring your front leg forward so that your foot is in between your hands and you transfer the body weight. From your hands into your front foot. This is the point where most people get caught out. They simply cannot do it because they don't have the strength and mobility.

There's not enough room. For that leg to fit into that space, that distance between your chest and your hands or the floor, if there's not enough room for your leg to fit there. And what you'll have to do is push hard and fast off the floor. Then your hands leave the floor, and that leg lands in between your hands, which was.

The mistake that a lot of people do on a surfboard. So there's a split second or even longer, where the center of the surfboard isn't controlled by you. The best way to develop the movement is actually in reverse. So if you think of another exercise like, like a chin up, the best way to develop strength for a chin up if you can't do one, is to do it eccentrically or in reverse.

You hold yourself at the top of the chin up and let yourself down really slowly. So the exercise that I recommend for improving your. Popup here is actually to do it in reverse. So you start by standing in your surf stance, you transfer the body weight all the way to your front foot, and then you slowly drop your hands down next to the front foot and slowly begin to transfer all your body weight from your foot into your hands, keeping that distance between your chest and the floor as big as possible, ideally, so you can actually lift the foot up off the floor so all your body weight is in your hands.

But the foot remains in the same place. And then slowly take your foot back into the pushup position, and then lower yourself down into the bottom of a pushup where you're in that prone paddling position. The goal is to be able to transfer your body weight from your front foot, to your hands, to your chest, in a nice, smooth, slow, and controlled way.

There is a free PDF on the homepage of surf mastery.com, called the five Best Exercises for Surfing, which goes into detail on this particular exercise as well as some other ones that compliment it. So go ahead and have a look at that. And on that note, do you know what's even harder is getting to the point where you actually need to do a popup.

So reading the ocean, choosing the right waves, predicting the. Where waves are going to break and reading how the water's moving, and then paddling into the wave, all that stuff that happens before you actually do the popup, which is about 99% of your time in the water. That's actually the hardest part in surfing, and it's also what my course is all about.

I have released a mini course that teaches all of that stuff. What happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet? The 99% of surfing that is done before we stand up. I have a course that goes into the details of all of that stuff, including exercises to, to complement the popup and also your standing position, which is essentially the finishing position of your popup.

Most other courses out there are focused on what do you do once you're standing up? Well. Let's break it down on how to get there. Go to the surf mastery.com homepage and you can go ahead and check out more details on that course, and of course, jump on board. This is basically the course that I wish I had when I started surfing.

Thanks for tuning into the podcast. Until next time, keep surfing.

The Surf Mastery Podcast: 

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

Is surfing a sport, an art, or something in between - and does it really matter?

If you've ever felt pressure to "perform" in the water or questioned your progress as a surfer, this episode will shift your mindset. Michael Frampton and Devon Howard unpack how redefining surfing as an art form - not just a competitive sport, it can transform both your approach and enjoyment, whether you're a beginner or a seasoned longboarder.

• Discover why kids often learn to surf faster and more fearlessly than adults - and what that means for your own surfing journey.

• Learn how to embrace surfing as a personal expression, tapping into flow states and style without the stress of performance.

• Get practical tips on wave selection, lineup strategy, and choosing the right longboard or mid-length for your body and goals.

Tap into the deeper meaning of surfing and learn how shifting your mindset from sport to art can unlock more joy and progress - listen now.

Key Points:

• Reading Waves & Lineup Tactics: Devon shares his triangulation method for better positioning and wave-catching efficiency - plus tips for navigating crowded breaks.

• Nose Riding Fundamentals: Understand why board length and positioning are crucial, and get clear size guidelines based on your height and weight.

• Board Selection Wisdom: From longboards to mid-lengths, discover how design choices impact both performance and style - and why collaboration with shapers like Wayne Rich matters.

• Surf Philosophy: Explore the tension between competition and creativity, and how thinking of surfing as dance, art, or even martial art can transform your surfing mindset.

Check out this article: https://www.theinertia.com/surf/surfing-art-sport-debate/

p.s. DM Devon on Instagram about a discount code for Channel Island’s accessories; leg ropes, tail pads and board bags.

Transcript:

124 Devon Howard

Michael Frampton: …they're mad on football. So it's winter here in New Zealand, so it's just football, football, football.

Once the football season finishes and the, and the water gets warmer, we'll get back into surfing. I got the kids in swimming lessons every week, so just building their swimming fitness up.

Devon Howard: Yeah, our kids are swimming now. They're pretty young, but we have a pool nearby and to get 'em acquainted with the ocean, we've been getting 'em in swimming lessons just 'cause it's, the water's a little chilly here as you, as you know.

So getting really young kids psyched on low 60 Fahrenheit water is rough. Oh yeah.

Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Swimming's important.

Swimming's you, you, I mean, the confidence in the water, right? Is,

yeah.

Michael Frampton: The biggest thing. And, and one thing that surprised me, like my kids, we spend a lot of time at the beach, , in the summertime and just their level of play, they don't care. , They started off just messing around in the shore break and then with a bodyboard, and then they jump on the front of my board and there was no pressure from me.

It was just like, we're at the beach, you guys do what you want. And then naturally they're like, oh, I wanna try your board dad. And now they're all surfing. That's great. And, and they naturally, one of them in particular is like obsessed with it and. But they don't care. It's like for, for them, surfing is not a sport at all.

There's no, there's no pressure on performance, anything like that. Right. And I think that's why they, they learn so well and why they sort of have no, there's no fear or shame or anxiety based around how they look in the water or anything. It's just pure fun. And two things surprised me on that is like a, is how long it takes to learn.

, I've been doing this with them, like my 13-year-old, he's only really just starting to sort of get surfing, like starting to sort of turn up and down on the wave face. And we've been doing that since he was four. You know, obviously there's far more gifted kids that pick it up really quick and, you know, the natural athletes and their obsessed parents and you know, some kids are competing once they're 11.

But I think for most kids it's, it's takes so long to learn surfing. And I think just knowing that. Takes a lot of, should take a lot of pressure off the adult learner who's listening to this.

Right?

Michael Frampton: It's like, give yourself a break, man. It takes a long time to learn surfing. And second of all, the fastest and best way to learn surfing is to kind of approach it like a kid in a way.

And Sure, my theory is that part of that is, don't think of it as a sport per se. Think of it as more of like an art or a lifestyle . Right. What are your thoughts on, on surfing in that regards? Is it a sport, is it an art? Does it matter?

Devon Howard: I don't, I've never thought of it as a sport, even though I, ironically, I worked for a sports league for a while at the World Surf League.

You can't give a simple answer to that because I think some aspects of surfing has become sport. , If you go, if we tune into the World Surf League later this week, they'll be at Jefferies Bay. The things that those surfers are doing, I think that's sport. I mean, it's, it's high level athleticism, , but it's mixed with art.

, In dance, which is an interesting thing. I suppose in some ways skateboarding is, you know, skateboarders have they really value style in their sport? I think that, I think skateboarders do call it a sport. But these conversations always are fraught with pitfalls because I'm, I'm not a, you know, my expertise isn't philosophy.

I'm, I'm sure a really great thinker could pick this thing apart, but from my simple look at it, I always have felt surfing is a, it's just a personal expression and it, it leans more toward art. It leans more toward dance. I know that sounds cheesy for some folks, but, , the type of surfing that interests me and I pursuing a lot of my friends do, I, I think it is not really sport.

Michael Frampton: , I, I agree with that a hundred percent. I would go further and argue that even in the WSL competition, I think most of the, the sport and air quotes is around the tactics and getting the waves. But once the surfers on the wave, the ones who get scored the most, are the most artistic. Mm-hmm. You know, like whether you watch John John with or without a jersey, he's, it's still very great.

He's still dancing with the ocean. Yeah.

Devon Howard: Yeah. And, and it is creative and I think because it's spontaneous, I guess other sports are spontaneous, you know, like a baseball game, any kind of balls comes flying at you, you have to react to it. There's not an exact plan, but you have practiced, um, a lot to react to that and to physically grab something where a surfboard, you have this other, you are catching something, you're catching the, the wave that's like catching a bulb.

But then you've got this other dimension where now you have the, it's a cliche, but the paintbrush. Um, and I, a lot of these surfers don't know what they're gonna do when they get to their feet. I don't, I don't know if you do, I mean, you kind of have things that you are in your bag of tricks or your repertoire that you lean on, but you don't always know you.

There's a lot of. Spontaneous react reaction to what's happening. So I think that's what art is. You know, if you sit, I used to draw a lot when I was younger, you know, you sit down and yeah, maybe you kind of have a game plan, but if, unless you're copying something, like you're looking at a still like a, you know, model or a landscape, I suppose you're, you know, you're copying that.

But if you are sitting down and not looking at anything and just going off peer feeling with no plan, um, that's artistry. And I, I, I think surfing's that way for a lot of people. For some people it's just survival. They're not, they're not really planning anything out. If you're newer to surfing, you're just like, get to your feet, make the drop, get to the channel, do it over again.

Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think a lot of. Things are like that, like surfing. Definitely one that sort of crosses the border between sport and art. I mean, you think of a a, an Olympic competition, gymnastics, right? It's gymnastics is essentially an art, unless even the judging itself is quite subjective.

No. Mm-hmm. A running race who finishes first? I mean, that's very objective. It's there's, you know, right. That's definitely a sport. And then even like a, a football game, who scores, who wins at the end? It's the black, it's pretty black and white. However, you might argue that Messi or Ronaldo, the way that they play with the ball is an art form.

The way that they probably draw energy from the audience and they like their, show me that it's a performance art for them. And anyone who's, you know, followed those great athletes would certainly describe the way they move is, is very artistic and the way they play the game. Um, right. I actually quite like to ask whether their perception of the game is more artistic as well.

'cause I, 'cause that's where I'm sort of coming from here is like the, the overarching question is why does it matter if it's a sporter or not? Like who cares? Let's just go surfing. Well, I think for, for a lot of people, especially me, sport is often defined and I grew up playing sport, but it was always competitive sport.

So the definition of sport for me has an element of competitiveness. Even though the Oxford dictionary definition of it doesn't include that, for me it's sort of always think of sport as something that's competitive. Whether that's an individualistic sport where you might be just competing against yourself when you're practicing or whatever.

But when, when you approach surfing or anything with an artistic perspective, then it becomes, no, this is creative. And you know, instead of three, instead of three to the beach. Because I used to think of surfing, like even though I wasn't in a competition, I used to think of surfing as I wanna rip the wave and three to the beach and sort of had these WSL speed power flow sort of outside influences on the way I should surf.

And you're watching surfing videos and you're surfing the latest shortboard and it was very much a sporting activity. And then when I sort of changed my perspective and thought of it, no, it's an art, it's for me, it's just becoming one with the wave and approached it. Yeah. From a more artistic perspective, I think a couple of things happened.

I, I just enjoyed it more. There was less pressure. Yeah. Actually started becoming more inflow and actually surfing with the wave better.

Devon Howard: Yeah. And it's funny, if you were to open up Surf magazine from, I don't know, 1966 or seven, the same exact conversations were happening because I might be misquoting 'em, but I believe it was Nat Young.

At some point, you know, he and the crew, a lot of crew were pulling back from competition and, , they were like, you look at the film evolution and, and that sort of late sixties period they were going to the farm and they were pulling back from putting the jersey on and having these discussions, you know, is pursuing and pushing, surfing in as a competitive sport, a mistake.

Are we forcing something upon, uh, a pursuit that's more akin to a performance art? I believe, I believe that's what he called it, was performance art, which would be closer to traditional dance. , You know, because at that time, let's just say late sixties, early seventies, the, the equipment. Hadn't gone anywhere near what it is now.

I mean, sure. In cartoons and dreams, they were imagining, um, flying through the air. I'm sure people were, but it was, it wouldn't, that wasn't happening until, uh, late seventies, early eighties where people started like getting really above the lip and then leaving, uh, and taking orbit. Uh, so you can really just think about it as, um, yeah, performance art and um, and then competitive surfing.

Uh, and, and the sport of surfing really, um, disappeared for a number of years. Through the early seventies into the mid seventies. By and large, the majority of surfing world wasn't participating in it. You look at surf magazines, they weren't pushing it super hard, but in the mid seventies, the board started getting.

More, um, performance focused. And you could argue what came first, you know, was it the competition that drew drove design, which, um, you know, increased the performance of the boards. 'cause in the mid seventies, there's shrinking the boards from those brewer single fin shapes, which were pretty limiting. Um, people were riding eggs in the early seventies.

Those were actually a lot more maneuverable than the Dick Brewer style boards that were popular because of Jerry Lopez. Jerry Lopez was God. And everyone wanted to surf like Jerry, even if it was waist high, wherever you were, it could be waist high Malibu. And people were riding seven foot Lopez guns, which was absurd.

Hmm. And so everything was style focused. It was still for sure art., But I think there was a fork in the road, so to speak, um, by mid to late seventies. Professional, you know, professional surfing was becoming a thing. The bronzed, Aussies, Sean Thompson, every, you know, we don't have to give a history lesson here, but astute listeners know that story.

And so surf brands are emerging and they're trying to sell product. And they sort of aligned themselves behind these elite quote, you know, surfer athletes and the type of surfing they were doing. You know, Shane Haran, you can go down the list of people. And then eventually Tom Kern, Martin Potter, Barton Lynch, they were getting in as many maneuvers as they could because they were being judged in a competition.

They were trying to win something. It was a subjectified sport, but it was still subjective. So it was always, no one was ever totally happy, but it was still being pushed toward a sport. And to get better, to win, to be a champion, you had to keep pushing performance more maneuvers, more radical. Then you had the other people who said the hell with that, that that is counter to what they believed in surfing.

And that would be your, um, Jim Banks. It would be the Wayne Lynch. It would be these sort of people that really stayed far from competition, pursued surf travel, and they kept that idea of it being an art alive. And like we're still having those discussions. We still, you know, on one side of things, now we have Michael February for example, and there's a whole list of people.

Um, although even to like, , Brendan Marson, Margo who's like my age in his early fifties, credible surfer. There's nothing on that side of things that are. Remotely related to competition. And I think everybody associates what they are doing at purely as art. I don't think anyone I, I'd be happy to hear who thinks that is sport.

And then we go back to our WSL example, you've got the jersey, you've got Jack Robinson, Alianca, you, you know, go down the whole list of people and that's what feels like sport to me. So it's interesting that we have two sides of it. And then ultimately whoever's listening or whoever's surfing and they, they sort of make a choice.

And I don't know, maybe the, is there a hybrid version of that? What, what would the hybrid be? I, I don't even know what you would call that, but,

Michael Frampton: I guess it depends on, I, I just think surfing is a sport for a very small percentage of surfers. It's the competitive ones. And then ironically, when they're surfing outside of competition and even when they're on a wave in their competition, it's still very much artistic.

And like you said, I think a performance art is a great definition. And Kelly Slater defined, I've heard him define surfing as a martial art, is simply because in martial arts you are playing with an outside force, , and in surfing as a performance art, but at the same time, you're also, you, you want to get as close to the most powerful part of the wave as well, so, right.

And in waves of consequence, at least you are, you're messing with danger, you know?

Devon Howard: Well, yeah. And I, I don't know, I don't have the definition of martial arts in front of me, but did it, does it go on, is there any other part of that where it involves like inflicting pain or damage because, uh, one side of surfing.

In the eighties when I was growing up, you wanted to rip and lacerate and destroy the wave, which is really funny.

Yeah. I think

Devon Howard: Brad Gerlach's talked about this before. I feel like I've heard him mention this and how the, that's one way to look at it. And the other is to have the surfing complement the, the wave.

It's not to, to take away from it or to destroy it, like going off the bottom and then r you know, Hmm. Taking the board so that you're throwing as much spray in the air. It could be like a I'm smashing that wave. I'm ripping, I'm tearing, I'm shrouding las. Yeah. Lacerating And where, go back to Michael February or Margot or any of those sorts of, , rastovich.

They are, there's a complimentary nature of the lines they choose and you never feel like they're destroying something or ripping it. I'm not, I'm not here to say what's right or wrong. It's just interesting.

Hmm.

Devon Howard: Uh, 'cause you, I never thought about martial arts, so I'm just kind of thinking that through out.

Um, 'cause there are types of martial arts that are more in, like, I assume Tai Chi is a type of martial arts. I, I think pretty sure it is. But that's just like this beautiful movement. Kung fu has beautiful movement. Um, but you use that outsource outside force of nature to technically to defend yourself.

Um, I guess if you're at, uh, ch pu, I don't know how to pronounce that. Everyone pronounces a different pu, um, that could kill you. Oh yeah. Pipeline.

Michael Frampton: Oof.

Devon Howard: Scary stuff.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. But its intention is not to, whereas in martial arts, if you're in a fight, someone's intention is to hurt you. Although, you know, in martial arts, when you, when you are practicing martial arts in a dojo with, with friends, the intention isn't to hurt at all.

It's to practice the art and to learn to flow with, you know, but then you, when you turn martial arts into a competition, say judo in the Olympic judo, yeah. Other guys maybe not trying to literally break your arm, but he wants to win. He wants to, you know, hurting you kind of part of that. So I think there's a sort of a subtle difference there between you sparring, sparring with a friend in order to become better so that you can defend yourself in a bad situation or you're in a judo competition, you wanna air quotes, kill the other person,

Devon Howard: right?

Michael Frampton: Yeah. But I get, and I guess you've got different approaches. I mean, you think of Pancho Sullivan's very much ripping and shredding the wave and you know, fast changes of direction and at the apex of the curve, which throws a lot of spray. But then you also look at Rob Machado and Smooth as you, like fast.

Yeah. But he also throws a hell of a lot of spray and you could argue that he's ripping the wave. Yeah. But he's doing it in a graceful way maybe.

Devon Howard: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, no, I, I agree. And a lot of, um,

I dunno

Devon Howard: if a lot of times, but I'll, I'll often hear people describe, , maybe we talked about this before, but that, that idea of that surfer stylish, did we talk about that before?

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Stylish style. Yep. It, it belies the, the rip actual ripping going on, you know, because sometimes that. Low bottom turn or that really coiled up cutback that's really smooth and flowing. Yeah. It is a type of ripping and it is pretty difficult to do. Um, but there's, you're still leaning toward artistry over sport of, i know when I was at the World Surf League, especially with long 'cause I was there to work on longboard surfing, but I feel like longboard surfing can sometimes be more challenging to, to be a sport because it's a lot of this movement up and down the board. And since it, you know, through like the Joel tutoring influence and, and cultural influences, it started leaning more toward a traditional long board judging criteria.

It. I, I would, I would have this conversation in my head like, are we at odds with ourself? Like we're trying to judge this thing. Um, we're trying to make as objective as possible, but it's, it's impossible because you, one judge can view somebody 'cause styles in the criteria where in short performance shortboarding, it's not in the criteria.

Hmm.

Devon Howard: It, it can create some interesting challenges. Like it's not easily identified as a sport. So I, I tried to explain to the judges, um, I wasn't a judge, but I was just sort of leading the whole crew and giving guidance on how are we gonna make this interesting? How are we gonna judge it as fair as possible?

And I would use, , dance competitions as, um, as sort of a guideline. And I think everyone agrees that like those beautiful dancers doing tango. Salsa you named the dance like that is, that is for sure art. I mean, it's just incredible form and beauty and you know, they're throwing numbers out on that and it's, it's all subjective.

So there it was, it was always this kind of, uh, it was this difficult thing of, , are we judging a sport? Are we judging performance art? And it was helpful for judges that were shortboard judges that didn't have a lot of experience with longboard surfing to step back and see it less as a competitive sport because it's pretty straight, it's a bit more straightforward with shortboarding, there still is a subjective nature to it, but when you don't have to lean on style, it's not written in the book.

It, I'm sure some judges, um, factor style in, but they're, they're going above and beyond what's in the parameters of the rule book. So it was just an interesting, , observation and, and in the end I think we got there by having those conversations about being open to this being leaning more toward art, which in, in, in we're a sports league.

We were at a sports league.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that's a good conversation to have. 'cause it's important. Is it, there are a lot of similarities with dance. You know, like if you're judging a tango competition while the music they're playing is apt, first of all, it would, it would look strange if they were dancing to heavy metal.

It wouldn't be appropriate the, the what they're wearing. Right? And then that in terms of them being stylish, their movements are smooth, controlled, and in time with the other person and the music. Yeah, the, the,

Devon Howard: it's the, the style a lot of times is the balance of form with the movement so that the form is never lack of martial art.

It's never working against the movement. You know, you can, you, you can't imagine a, a black belt in any martial art where their arms are like going the wrong way. It's just not, it would be really awkward looking. And it's, it's the same with surfing, you know. And so the, the form, the function will follow the form and if they have a really good form, um, the surfing will will a lot of times be beautiful, where a lot, I, I feel like two brides, two rides are a good way to sort of like.

Forced pretty decent style. Like it's pretty apparent if you have awful style, if you're in a barrel.

Mm.

Devon Howard: But you know, a good amount of surfers can kind of pull it together and get that crouch down and sort of get the hands just right inside the barrel. But if they're like bent over it, legs are sort of straightish and they're bent over at the waist and sort of looking down at the board.

Oof. Ow It's really obvious that, um, style's way off. Form's way off. Definitely not artistic.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. And the wave's gonna hit you in the butt anyway.

Devon Howard: Yeah. Because you're gonna be in bit trouble.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, it's, it's, so, I guess it's also, you've gotta surf back to surfing. You've gotta surf appropriately to the waves that you're surfing.

So essentially you are in rhythm with the ocean and also. The, the surfboard that you choose to ride as well, which is like someone actually meant, because our last conversation was about style, which kind of weaves ni nicely into this conversation. And there was a comment on, on YouTube, someone said, oh, someone said you didn't infl, you didn't enforce or, put enough weight to the origin of the word style, which comes, comes from stylus, which is, , your pen as right.

It had a certain writing style, and of course it was the words you wrote, but also your, your handwriting and what, yeah, and the quality of the fountain pen or whatever type of pen that you chose to use as well. So I thought that was really interesting. Which comes back, which leads us into the surfboard.

So I think that that's gonna determine a lot of your style. And if you are going out on a performance shortboard, people are gonna look at you more like a sports person. But if you're out there on a, on a beautiful, beautiful log and you are going for, you know, form and style, you're gonna be seen as, as more of an artist as well actually.

Devon Howard: Yeah, I'd say that is probably a general rule. , At one, once upon a time there was style was really, you know, I think we're about close to the same age. So I grew up idolizing looking at people like Tom Curren in the eighties and nineties and Peak Tom Curren, early nineties, the search Beautiful search films.

Um, and then on the Shortboard side of things, you know, again, it comes back competition and sport has driven the departure to, to. Get away from style. 'cause not on the criteria, there's a focus on high performance maneuvers, but there's a return to that. And, and, and over the years there's been people sort of in there, but like a Joel Parkinson, um, who would get underscored because he looked too smooth, which is interesting.

Mm

mm

Devon Howard: And then, um, I think Ethan Ewing is a great example in recent times that the judges really react to it. The surf fans, if you follow the WSL, certainly you know that he's got a huge following. He's a favorite on all the podcasts that you and I listen to, everybody kind of sees him as a return to form, which is really quite nice.

I think that's, um, awesome. But at the end of the day, there's still no word or you're not required. To factor in style into the criteria. So it's interesting when you look at, it's not in the criteria, but clearly the style in the form is factoring into the score because he's doing these really radical maneuvers, but really polished, really beautiful form, no arms waving, everything's low and compressed like a Tom Curren or Rastovich, but two or three x, you know, like more like faster and more explosive and more corked out and twisted.

, But generally speaking, I think it's true what you're saying that you, you could associate that the average sort of stuff you're seeing out there, whether it's competition or just your local lineup, there's not a real focus on the art or or style. And because the board lends itself to. Pumping and ripping and sort of being in and out of tr proper trim.

Um, the, there's not that stability to have that good form for some, maybe a lot of people.

Hmm.

Devon Howard: But then on a log or a long board, or a mid, I'm sorry, a, um, mid length, it's more stable. The board's more in the water. You're not lifting it and pumping it and getting it out of the water as much. Um, so you've got a more stable foundation to kind of work out, you know, you're not under that sort of stress and pressure of making a board work, going down the line and then getting to the different parts of the wave with ease.

So I, I think it's true that a general rule could be for the average person, that the board is gonna have a big impact on your presentation. Well, the form, but just the way. You know, other, the rest of us see the way you're riding the wave. , Again, we're not surfing to make other people happier or to please other people, I think.

But good form, it feels great. When you're surfing, it's just like swinging a bat. You hit the ball and you connect, you know, or I don't play golf, but you, you get like a perfect swing. I know my friends at golf, so there's nothing like that feeling. You just know that that drive is going way down the field and it's going right where you want it to go.

I think that's good form, right? And then surfing good form. When you get a great bottom turn or great cutback and everything comes together, it feels awesome. And byproduct of that, as your friends might keep you a hoot or a hollerer in the channel.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, labeling it as an art doesn't take away from the fact that we want to get better at all.

I mean, any musician who's played music is definitely an art form. And if you want to get better, you gotta practice. You know, you practice, you learn music theory, you practice in your bedroom by yourself. You, you might do it for hours and hours and in order to do one jam with a band and have that be artistic.

Yeah. So it definitely doesn't take away with our want, our desire to get better and, and certainly to get better for ourselves, not for some competition or, or how we look, just because it's, it's awesome to do that. The, I think just the simple fact is the, the better you are at surfing, the better it feels.

Devon Howard: Yeah. It's, , it's serious fun. You're, yeah. You know, because sometimes the word art could. In some people's mind could communicate a lack of seriousness. Like it, Hey, this thing doesn't matter. It's a pointless pursuit. There's nothing to be really taken that seriously. You know, you, you, you know, run into surfers who will, maybe they'll drop in on you or collide with you and go like, Hey man, take it easy.

Like, we're just having fun. Don't take it so seriously. Think, well, you know, a lot of us that have sort of dedicated our lives to it, we take the s the serious part of it is, is the practice, like the guy or girl and the guitar, um, you know, they're hours a day. They're, they're taking it seriously, but they're having a good time and they're, they're practicing over and over.

Just like someone in a martial arts jiujitsu studio that's hours and hours of training. Um, we're doing that as well. We don't get as much practice at it 'cause we're paddling so much and sitting a lot. It's actually quite precious the amount of time we get on the board. , That's why, back to the very beginning of the conversation, it just takes a long time.

That's why it's hard for kids, you know, it's a lot of patience, a lot of understanding and moving through the, the ocean. Um, and then when you actually get up and ride away, it's just a small fraction of your time in the ocean.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's, I mean, what happens between when the surfboard is under your arm and under your feet?

That's the hardest part of surfing.

Devon Howard: It depends how many people are talking to you in the lineup. How many sets in this, while they're talking to you about their real estate deal, you're like, let's surf. Yeah, let's get back. Let's, let's have some serious fun, you know, like I, that's what I always have seen surfing a as like, um, yeah. And, and, and I think, yeah, just like what I was saying earlier, sometimes the, the idea that being an art, I, I've talked to people who take, like, you know, these are professional surfers, people that dedicate their life to it.

And I'm explaining to them that it's a, it's an art or a dance. And, and some of these surfers didn't like that. They thought that it, it eroded or diminished the importance or the seriousness of what they were doing. They're like thinking to themselves like, well, I train and I, like, I go to the gym and I run and I do all these things so that I can be stronger and surf better.

And like art just sounds like something you do. Like you're doodling in a notepad and it just. Is a pointless endeavor. Um, so there, there, for some people, there's a disconnect with the idea of art. We're clearly all not on the same page on this. 'cause a lot of WSL fans, I'd be willing to bet, would say, uh, that, that, that it is a sport.

They do think it's an art, but if they had to choose, you know, they hear they're cheering for people with jerseys. , People that aren't into the WSL would take your stance where you, 'cause earlier you said, well, I think maybe more people would see it as, um, an art than a sport. But I I obviously we don't have the data on that.

It'd be, maybe you should do a survey. I, I did,

Michael Frampton: I did a small one on, on Instagram. It was, it was about 75 25. So more, uh, but obviously that's a small, that's my listeners. You know, when of course if you're talking to competitive surfers or even, even those who grew up as competitive surfers when they were younger, and, uh, they probably shaped their attitude when, even if they're not competing anymore,

Devon Howard: right?

Michael Frampton: , But I think taking, taking it seriously and training, and, and that doesn't mean it's not an art form. I mean, Goss, Neil Young has a nutritionist and a personal trainer, and do you know what I mean? Like, he wants to look after himself so that he can perform as art, right? Yeah. It's so can I'm take, still take art seriously?

Devon Howard: No, I just, I was only sharing that because I, I'm not saying that there's a lot of people that think that way, but I was a little surprised how I. You know, when you can feel the shift in the energy of somebody who's not liking what you're saying, they're like, oh,

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Devon Howard: And I had to kind of talk through it and, um, like, well, it's, no, it's not really the same, you know, like a, a fine painter or a jazz musician clearly is an artist, but, um Hmm.

Just had to kind of like re rethink that aspect of it that yeah, it can be an art and it can be, you can also take it pretty serious.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I asked Donald Brink the same question and he was very much in the art camp, and, uh, sure, yeah. I mean, absolutely. And of course that segues into like, he's, when he shapes a board, it's an art piece, you know, and I think you guys at Channel Islands would agree is that there's a lot of.

There's a lot of passion and, and thought and care that goes into not just how the boards perform, but how they look and their longevity and all, all sorts. There's very much an an art, an art form, and I wanna talk about the new surfboard, but I, I wanna ask you one question before we talk about boards, which we touched on it, that we spend most of our time in the water, you know, trying to read the ocean, look for waves and paddling around.

Sure. Have you got any tips for people choosing the right waves and reading the ocean wave selection? Oh my gosh,

Devon Howard: that's a interesting one because, , I use a lot of good surfers use lineups. So when I get to a new break and I don't know what's going on, , it's definitely no art involved.

This is more like physics and science now where I. Putting on the cliff cap brain and looking at things, um, from a scientific, like naturalist point of view where surfers study, I think we study patterns. We don't think about it, but hunters, um, surfers that, you know, scientific observers, bird watchers, they study patterns.

And so when you arrive to the new break, you're, you know, let's say you don't have a friend there, you have no idea. The old days before the internet told us everything to do, um, we'd have to figure it out. And you just start watching and observing the patterns to see what's going on with the bottom and making a guess on, uh.

Sort of sometimes the safety of it. 'cause you could be at somewhere that's like a slab, that's a bit frightening. But if it looks, you can use tell right away if it's a, if it's a u, you know, user friendly wave. So then once you've established that, okay, this is a safe place to serve, , maybe I don't see any fin.

So I'm like, okay, there's also hopefully no sharks. And then, then you get out and I, I use lineups. Um, I quickly establish two points on the beach. You know, it's like the two fingers there. It's like with these two fingers, I'll see two palm trees and I'll see a set come in and the first thing I do is I look over my shoulder and I look in and I find two points and I observe about how far apart they are.

And then I'll look at the second and third wave and I'll look in and if they're still kind of happening in the same spot. I'm like, oh, okay. We're sort of in a zone and then I'll move around and try to find some, if I can get one of those, another object to actually line up with it. If I can't find something to perfectly line up, then I'll get used to like, okay, there's about that much space between those trees.

So if there's this much space, I know I'm like, you know, way off. If it's like over now, if it's like crossed over and gone the other way, I am way off. So I study the pattern that I don't think there's any art to it. I just think if you have good eyesight, you have to use it and have good recall. So, you know, not everybody has good recall.

You know, you, you see something happen and then you notice the pattern of it happening again and, and what has changed? Where did that. Thing that's happening move, or did it come in the exact same place? So that's what I'm doing. I'm triangulating, I mean, a lot. There's absolutely nothing new with that. Um, but I do, a lot of surfers I think don't use that.

, I'm, I'm not an expert of surfing around Kelly Slater, but the few times I've surfed next to him, I'm not his buddy or anything. I noticed that he does the same thing I do. I'm looking over my shoulder all the time and it's not because I'm worried about someone kicking my ass or that I cut someone off.

'cause that could be a reason to look over your shoulder. Like I, um, it's, I'm, I'm continuously interested, am I in the right position? And, and I surf a lot of crowded breaks. So switching from like a new break, like I'm trying to figure that pattern out and establish it. That's like the first thing, the most important thing I do, um, at, at home where it's really crowded.

I'm trying to understand the movements of the crowd with the current and where everybody's at. 'cause when the sets come, I want to, if, you know, unless I'm a visitor and it's not a break, I'm, it's not like my home break or something. , I wanna be on the top three waves. If it's my home break, if I'm visiting somewhere, I know I'm not gonna get the top three waves.

, I mean, unless you wanna be hated and everyone to hate you in the lineup you're visiting, you don't grab the set waves. But you can still, even if you're looking for scraps and leftovers, you still want to be aware of where you are and knowing that triangulation. So it's like if I'm on a spot like Malibu and.

Alan Sarlo, Andy Lyons, the Marshall Brothers, like all these people that surf there regularly, they're gonna get those waves. But I still wanna know where I am so that once those flurry of waves have come through and there's a few leftovers, those top dogs are out of the way. But I'm, I've ensured that I'm not way too far into the channel.

I'm still deep enough in a good spot where theoretically, I mean, it is Malibu, you're gonna get dropped in on, , you, you would be in pole position. So I'm, I'm, it's, it's kind of interesting that to that I spend almost as much time looking out to see as I do looking in.

Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah,

Devon Howard: no, that's a, that's a great lesson.

Maybe

Michael Frampton: that's a great point. And not only does triangulation help you stay from where you are, 'cause that's where the waves are breaking from, but it also makes sure that you're in the same spot to take all the observations as well. Sure. Which I think is, is important for, for getting to know the break and the patterns.

You never Yeah. You wanna be a static observer because Yeah. On some swells, the, oh, it's a different period. They're actually breaking. I usually sit here, but they're breaking over there. Uh, so at least I, at least you know where you are and where you usually sit and now you know this, this is a unique swell or it's a different period.

It's, it's breaking over there and you've got a new triangulation or a new observation. So there's lots of reasons to triangulate.

Devon Howard: Yeah. I don't know if I answered your question. I mean, it was

Michael Frampton: definitely

Devon Howard: that idea of what do you, you know, what do you do when you get out there and, and. And then there's also, you see a lot of people who don't really do any of those things and they do just fine.

I'm probably just overthinking it. Well,

they probably,

Devon Howard: but I don't know. I, I, I like the idea of trying to hone in on it. Um, I feel like really good surfers that are getting, some of the best waves really understand that where exactly where they are. They, they do look in.

Michael Frampton: I think you also get to a point at, at a break where you don't have to triangulate as much just 'cause you just know, oh, there's a boil there.

Whether you're conscious of it or not. You just kind of know where you are in a, in a, in a lineup. You get a intuitive sense for your positioning at, at a certain place. Um, yeah. Are you always just scanning the horizon, looking for the next set? You wanna see the set first or are you want ma la land? I do see waves.

Devon Howard: I do because the waves in Southern California, a lot of times are pretty inconsistent compared to other parts of the world. There's some pretty big lulls. Southwell especially, you know, you can have 10, 15 minute lulls of the really bomber waves. So, yeah, I think so. Um, and just trying to see. Yeah. 'cause if people are talking, they're not paying attention, I'll key in on that.

I'll notice they're not paying attention, so I'll do a little flutter kick and just sort of move a few inches one way or the other so that while they're not paying attention, I'm just a little bit closer.

Yeah.

Devon Howard: I'm, I'm not advocating or saying don't take your turn or snake people, but people can kind of work themselves out of the rotation but not paying attention.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Devon Howard: It's funny 'cause like, I find it obnoxious and annoying when people talk, um, a lot. I just, I think a lot of, a lot of people agree with this. My, I don't know if it's a generational thing, but surfing is a place to disconnect. We have. These things. We have all kinds of noise all day long, and the, the ocean's the perfect place.

It's like going to a yoga class and everybody's talking. It's like, what? Well, I'll just do this at home. Like I don't need, this is a place to, we can be together and we can connect and vibe off each other's energy. I'm not saying don't say hi to people. Say hi. Hello.

Michael Frampton: Yep.

Devon Howard: That's enough. Not, but then like, let's settle in.

It's like, it, it, I feel like the surfers in the sixties and seventies especially really understood that notion of meditation and just enjoying the quiet parts of surfing, like being okay with the downtime of a 20 minute lull and just sort of sitting there.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah. I, I totally agree with that. I used to be confused as when.

Try and talk to someone. Sometimes people won't even say hi. They just, they ignore you and just watch the horizon. But then in the car park, they're the nicest, friendliest people you've ever meet. And you just gotta realize, no, that's, that they're there to watch, that they wanna see that set come first, leave them alone.

And you should actually be doing the same thing, like focus in on the ocean. Like read the waves. Yeah. If you're feeling anxious, go in and catch the little ones. Just,

Devon Howard: well, you, you actually get pulled out of the rhythm when, when I've noticed, when a deep conversation takes place, invariably you're, you're pulled out of the rhythm of the ocean and you miss, because as you're talking, those other people do, the flutter kicks and they sort of slowly move into position.

Mm-hmm. It only takes a matter of inches or feet.

Yep.

Devon Howard: And shit. 20 minutes, people sort of forget whose turn it is. And if you're not focusing. That, that can be frustrating. So I, I'm, if I've ever been accused of being rude or too serious on the water, it's because I'm from that old school of be polite, say hi.

But it's okay to be, have like uncomfortable silence. It's like being in a car ride with someone. A lot of people get nervous and uncomfortable if there's more than like 10 seconds of silence.

Yep.

Devon Howard: And then they force a conversation and think, well, if the person next to me isn't talking to me, they must be mad at me.

It's not a waste. It's like, no, it's okay. Like, just be comfortable being, , in that silence that the, the movie theater thing says silence is golden. Yep.

No,

Devon Howard: I've had some friends say, dude, that's just way too harsh and extreme. Like you're in an environment where people are expecting to be really social and, and.

Talk story and whatever, you know, like just jibber, jabber, like

sometimes, I don't know. Yeah, sometimes not. I think

Devon Howard: there's a time and place like, yeah, it's like nehi and just your buddy, like there's no hard and fast rule, but I'm just only bringing this up because it, it factors into all of these things that are in play.

When you're in the lineup, you're trying to surf, you're trying to have fun, you're trying to be respectful. You're also trying to catch waves. 'cause some people are there to talk. That's great. I love it. Go right ahead and talk all you like It's actually good ground cover. The more people sitting there talking.

Mm-hmm.

Devon Howard: And not catching waves. Other people won't paddle out. That's too crowded. There's already 50 people out.

Yeah.

Devon Howard: But sometimes you'll find that half that crowd that has no interest really in getting that many waves. They're just kind of want to be out there.

Michael Frampton: They'll,

Devon Howard: they'll be happy to get a couple little scraps.

Michael Frampton: No, exactly. That's a good point. And you certainly don't judge someone's social character based on the way that they sit in the lineup. It's, um,

Devon Howard: so yeah. Well, somehow there's art involved in what we're talking about.

Michael Frampton: Oh, definitely.

Devon Howard: There's an art, there's an art to the dance of catching a wave and Oh yeah.

The art is how do you catch a wave without everybody hating you?

Michael Frampton: Um, make it look easy would be part of it, which is artistic in a way. Uh, be res, be respectful. Some, some people get away with it. Yeah. It's, it's a, that's a tricky comment. Well,

Devon Howard: it probably has all the answers in those self-help books of like, how to have people like you, you know, there's, there's just things you do right.

You're patient, you, you take your turn speaking in a room. You look people in the eye like all these sorts of things. And that sort of can factor into surfing. Now, if you're at like a hardcore lucked out spot where no one, like everyone's mad, you're there. No matter who you are and what you've done, that's a different story.

But on your sort of average run of the mill surf break, that's very well known, it's not a coveted secret spot. Uh, it's, I I always find it interesting how you kind of, the art of moving through that lineup and finding yourself on a wave.

Yeah. It's

Devon Howard: satisfying in a way when you've figured out that it's almost like the satisfaction of being on a hunt, which is like a human, it's built into us, whether you're a vegan or not, it's, sorry, it's built into us to hunt.

Mm-hmm.

Devon Howard: You're just hunting for berries. Yeah. Some, some are hunting for, you know. An elk.

Yep.

Devon Howard: But

yeah,

Devon Howard: there's something satisfying about the chase or cha and like how you get there and the, the kind of the game plan of like, you know, human beings for as long as we know that we've been here on this planet with work together and kind of Yeah.

Elk. Um, maybe not so much when you're getting berries. Um, and then surfing. We're all chasing the same elk, but in the end, only one of us wants to get So who gets the elk?

Michael Frampton: There's lots of elk. There's lot, there's lots of elk out there though. Yeah, there's definitely a co there's a combination of reading the ocean and reading the room.

Sure. Surfing in a, in a lineup and, uh, there is an element of like catching the wave or hunting the wave for sure. But I think once you are in a position where you're, you're just about to join the wave, then it's more about accepting the invitation to dance, then it is catching the wave.

Devon Howard: Sure.

Michael Frampton: Hmm. And I think that's a more artistic way of looking at it as well.

Right. It's right. It's often the way I coach people as well that are struggling to catch waves as well. Change your perspective. Don't just hunt down the waves and try and catch the wave. 'cause you end up sort of, uh, you're being less efficient with your movements if you're just accepting the invitation to dance and your dance partner's playing hard to get, then sort of gives a different perspective on, on catching waves.

Devon Howard: Yeah. If you want to get really woo woo on this, what, what about the. Um, I don't understand how this stuff works, but some people will call it the law of attraction. If you tap into the energy, like the energy we have as a human and what we attract, um, for example, if we're negative, um, low vibration, thinking about how bad everything is and how bad people are and that everyone's out to get you.

It is really interesting that that stuff just finds its way to you more and more the person that looks at things with a more positive, optimistic outlook. Great things seem to find their way. Now there's exceptions to that, of course. There's really great people that do that and get struck with cancer, unfortunately.

But I think by and large, there's a rule there and with catching waves and attracting waves. If you're like, ah, it's crowded, it's, I can't, ah, you know, you see people do that in a lineup and it just gets worse for them. Yep. They're the ones that get in an argument. They're picking a flight with somebody where the patient, people that are just really optimistic and believers that the wave's gonna come to them.

It, it comes to them. And then there's the, like, there's the other like, um, really amazing ones that I've always scratched my head. , I've surfed with this guy Victor Bernardo, not that long ago. If you don't know who he is, look him up. Phenomenal surfer. , Wherever he would go, the waves would be I, and I've seen Mikey February do this.

I've seen Tom Curren, I've surfed with Tom Curren. I watched it happen. Joel Tudor. There's just, it's more than just knowledge.

Hmm.

Devon Howard: There's some belief system there that is added into, yes, they have the knowledge, but I mean this happened to Britt Merrick not that long ago at Rin Con. Britt Merrick grew up at Rin Con, knows it better than just as well as any top local, right.

Mikey February's sitting next to him and Mikey's having a great session and Britt's like, Hey sit Mikey, sit here. This is the spot. And you know, Mikey's really polite. Oh, okay. Brit. And just a few minutes later, Brit sees outta the corner that Mikey just keeps paddling deeper, like another 150 feet to this kind of area that pretty tough to make unless you caught the wave up top and you came into it at Mach 20.

And then if you take off where Mikey is, you might get caught behind. And so you sort of like sit where Britt and most of the people sit and Mikey gets the wave of the day. Yeah. And it's like how it did these things and came to him in a way that didn't make sense to even the most knowledgeable local. I, I don't know what that means.

Um, maybe, maybe a a really somebody who understands how the universe works could explain that to me. But there's something about is it his belief? Is he lucky? Is he just that good that he figured out a break that he hardly surfed? He only like, barely ever surfed or Rincon before that.

Michael Frampton: Mm. But he is also put a lot of time in and a lot of, you know, there's a lot these surfers that, uh, that we see as magical and so good have actually put a lot of time and effort and I, I actually think, I remember surfing with Nathan Hedge.

At North Narab, but everyone's sitting there and then Nathan starts paddling like an animal. And everyone's like, well, I was like, what are you paddling for? And then five seconds later, everyone else sees the set and starts paddling. He just saw the set before everyone else. He just had a hyper focus on that sliver of ocean.

Or maybe it was an instinct thing just from his experienced or his pad pattern recognition is on a deeper level than us. So he saw a, a, a glint of a set further out the back than anyone else. Or maybe there is a logical way to explain it, or maybe it is a bit more woo woo, or I'm not, I'm not sure either.

Hmm.

Michael Frampton: It's interesting. But yeah, with the, the time we spend sitting there waiting and watching the ocean is, is a, is a big part of it. And of course, what we sit on, what we choose to sit on is a big part of it. And you see over my left shoulder here. Do you know, do you recognize who might have shaped that board?

Devon Howard: Is that a Wayne Rich?

Michael Frampton: It is a Wayne Rich. It's a harmonics. It

Devon Howard: looks like that's it's a harmonic

Michael Frampton: harmonic. 67. It is,

Devon Howard: yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a stringer configuration he likes to do. , I think part of his stringer influences from Renny Yater. Um, so there's a little, those that know Yater, there's sort of like a, a little nod to him without stringer those stick choices.

Um, and that's a great, great model. I've written it. It's awesome.

Michael Frampton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a nine, eight. And, uh, you guys at Channel Lines have recently collaborated with Wayne. Can you tell us what brought Yeah. Wayne, why, why Wayne and what brought that on and how did, what was the outcome?

Devon Howard: Well, speaking of artists and artistry, um, Wayne would.

100% beyond that side of the equation. Um, Wayne is an artist. He's really into sacred geometry and like really like spiritual living. , He feels things deeply. So I think a lot of us that know him, that's what why we're attracted to him. 'cause he is that passionate. He does take things seriously. I've been at Channel Islands at which I was just talking to my wife last night.

I couldn't believe how long I've been working with Channel Islands, uh, came here in 2018. I'm like, wow. You ever have those moments where you just have, there's these timestamps where you started something, a friendship, a project, a relationship, and. And it's the things that go by that quick is usually you're enjoying them.

It's when you're in living hell that things drag on and take forever. So that's, I think, a good indication that we're having a really great time here. Um, and I've, I've ridden a lot of different boards. I wrote TMAs growing up for a long, long time. Unfortunately, he passed away a little over a decade ago, close to 15 years ago, pretty soon here.

And then I rode some friends boards, Tyler Hatzikian, Thomas Bexon, and a few others. Um, I was just sort of like a country list. Didn't really, you know, just kind of went and bought boards from whoever I was. Uh, Skip Fry. Got into those for a while. Um, the, the gliders, he calls 'em big boards. Other people call 'em gliders.

Oh. Which is another story for another time.

Yeah.

Devon Howard: Um, why they're called that and, . Yeah. And so just being here, we did the mid and then, um, some of the guys would give me a hard time. They would see me writing these other boards that I just mentioned and just a little like, mark you on ci. Like, well, we, we have, there hasn't been a new long board design at CI in like 20 some years.

They made a bunch of 'em in the nineties and early two thousands had this Mikey De Temple and other, so even Rob Machado had one, you know, and so they, they for sure had a go at it, but they sort of just leveled out. And long story short, selfishly, I, I wanted a board that the guys would give me a hard time on, and it had some channel analysts on it.

And so talked to Britt Merrick and it's, you know, he's like, Hey, this isn't in my wheelhouse. It's just not where his, where he is at. He wouldn't even know where to begin, but. He, he had talked about Wayne Rich being somebody who, who, you know, he is a friend of the community. Britt's known him since he was a teenager.

And, um, so it was like this perfect fit. We're here in Carpenteria, Wayne's a a a Rincon regular and been in this eight to five zone for many decades. And so, yeah, we just got together and we had a chat about what we wanted to do. So we made a board called the CI Log, which came out two years ago. And then this newest one we just came out with a few weeks ago, it's called the ci Nose Rider.

Sounds like a lazy name, but, um, it does exactly what the name says it does. So the, the log was a Australian style, what we call, um, in like, people call it involvement style. It's where you're really moving around in the pocket. It's more of a dance. It's not just hanging out in the nose all day and just standing up there.

It's, it's full tip to tail movement. And then the nose rider. Is geared more toward anyone that just wants to hang out on the nose. It's a great, like a Malibu, any point break, someone who's really hyper-focused on the nose, kinda like an air board. It's like, wanna do an air, get the neck beard too. Or you know, whatever model that is focused on that.

And then I think the coolest part about it is just weighing the decades of experience and connecting with someone who's that real. I mean, you know, you have his board, he's just like the ultimate underground character. He's just been this guy that, um, you never had aspirations to blow up and be the biggest thing.

And so I, I think we all feel real lucky that he was open to the idea of collaborating and , he has a lot of respect for Al Island. So it was just like a perfect fit. But I, I could bore you to tears about all the details of the board, but I think at the end of the day, it's just, it's a work of art. It is very functional.

And makes nose riding easier. And then, , our friends at True Ames who are in now, they moved to Caria, but just down the street. Chuck Ames is over there and Troy mother's head and they made a fin that goes with it and it, we had a nice spin in it, but when we were done with the process of making a fin that compliments a board specifically, that's a really fun process.

We did a bunch of, tried like almost a dozen different fins. It was over a number of months and made a few versions and then it made the board nose right, even better. So it's really noticeable. If I don't have that fin in it, it, the board still works great, but just works better. Everybody knows they've got a board at home.

If they have the wrong set of fins in it, it's a totally different board. It can almost be like a deal breaker and then you get in that right set of fins on your, in your board. Magic.

Michael Frampton: Yeah. So,

Devon Howard: yeah.

Michael Frampton: Oh, awesome.

Devon Howard: We that,

Michael Frampton: yeah. So it's the, no, the Nose Rider. Um, yeah. Arguably the best longboard shaper in the world working with Channel Islands.

It's pretty cool.

Devon Howard: I, I think it'd be hard. I, I don't think a lot of people would argue with that. It would, he's won the, um, you know, he is won that icons of foam shape off. He's, you know, he was just in a recent one. He was just in the final, he pretty much won it, according to most people. We don't get in those details, but another contest.

Yep. See, trying to make a contest out of an art, which is shaping surfboards. Really funny, isn't it?

Michael Frampton: It is funny. It is funny. Gosh, there, there, there's almost nothing you guys haven't done now. Oh gosh. I mean, if you could get skip Fry to do a, a big, a big board for Channel Islands, you'd have everything in your lineup.

Devon Howard: Yeah. That's a bridge too far. People might burn. People don't like those things. They off gliders. They're bad for the lineup. Longboards are bad enough. But I think, you know, it's interesting, like you don't see as many longboards as it used to. I think every, not everyone, lemme back up. A lot of people who would've ridden a high performance longboard or a longboard have jumped over to a mid length.

I think that's really cool. Where like 10 or 15 years ago, there was a bigger divide. There was high performance short boards, um, high performance longboards or logs, which kind of got popular about 20 years ago after the Tudor, the seedling and all that sort of stuff happened. And then God forbid you had subs, the, I mean, they were the most hated.

Yeah. Now

Devon Howard: the most hated might be foyers, but, um, so somehow the. On that, um, hierarchy of who's, who's the most hated, the, the, the traditional longboard has kind of maybe gone and rung up the ladder and kind of gained back some ground there. , But yeah, this is one of those things that's, you know, it's a timeless beauty and, high performance, short boards, they're always being driven by, by performance.

And that formula one mentality of trying to be ones, just whatever that incremental step ahead is of your competition, you'll take it. So those guys, Britt Merrick and that crew, they're always like 30 seconds of an inch. I'm like, you've gotta be kidding me. But Yago Dora the other day, like, chipped his fin at J Bay just barely chipped it.

He kept looking at his fins and he got out of the water and took that one fin at work. Any one of regular of us would've just kept surfing, but he felt it. Wow, interesting. So those people, yeah. Yeah. And then with traditional longboards, you don't need as much progression and refinement. So I think with what we're doing, it's like Wayne and I had these ideas.

We, we did about a year and a half of refinement and it's like, I don't know what else we could do to this board to make it any better. It's insane. That's like a really cool, that's a cool feeling when you work on a project, whatever it is, you build something, you build a home, you build a piece of art. Um.

Knowing that you did all you could to make it the best you could is it's really is like a satisfying feeling. Yeah,

Michael Frampton: yeah, yeah. Well, it makes sense to have a quiver of boards for different, you might not see logs in the lineup that much, but sometimes the waves is just, yeah, go surfing on a log or you don't go surfing.

Sometimes they're that small and weak. That's, it's nice to have that board, even if you're not a long boarder per se. It's nice to have one of those in your quiver. Yeah. I had a thought, I don't know if there's any merit to it, but if, if for example, you had let, let's say you had 10 surfboards ranging from performance, short boards all the way through to a, to a log to a long board.

If all of those surfboards were from the same manufacturer, would you have the consistency of the, the materials and the curing time and the sanders that would give some sort of, that, that would make those boards sort of gel together better in a way?

Devon Howard: I don't know if that's true. Um. I think what holds things together is like a rocker profile.

So like if you have a family of boards that share a similar rocker, but you can't really ever do that when you're going in the full range. You know, you, you're never gonna have that with a short board all the way to a log. They're just so different. So I like what you're thinking that, but maybe someone could argue that that's the case.

But over that stretch of a board, so much is changing. Just if, if you have a great rocker, you can have a great board, even if you botch the rail, I think. And, but going from a performance shortboard to a log, something that has a really hard refined edge to something with no edge, um, no, I don't think so.

But if you get it from the same shaper, who can do that for you, they're gonna know you as the surfer and learn who you are. So I think. From that sense, you could work with whoever your shaper is and get a complete quiver. Um, the problem with that, I, I just from my experience, is most shapers, um, they often build things that they love and are passionate about.

And it's really rare that you find somebody that can build a high performance shortboard and a log. Like, I think like a, I remember running into a guy years ago named Tim Stamps, who's down in, uh, Newport, and Tim's one of those guys I think, who can build a performance, shortboard, a fish, a mid link. Um, that, that's a really cool skillset to have.

Um, in our case at Channel Islands, we've got, we just have like a crew of talented people, so we're kind of lucky. It's like a, it's like a good baseball team or something that's got a stable of. Really talented people, and that's kind of fun, you know, getting to like, get in a band together that could like substitute in different band members for like different types of music.

I think that's pretty, that's really fun and it keeps us engaged. Like every day is really, it's really fun to go to work when there's more ideas than what you can execute on.

Michael Frampton: , The, the CI knows Rider any tips in terms of what size you order? Is there any rules around that? No, but I

Devon Howard: think, um, I think general rules of long boards. I think if you go around no less than three and a half feet over your height is not a bad place to be. You wouldn't want to go less than that.. A lot of times you won't find longboards that are under nine feet unless it's custom made.

Um, we had our friends in Japan that we made some for ordered eight eights, which was, I thought, an interesting size because a lot of them are like 5 6, 5 4. Yeah. The small frame people, uh, the common body type's a bit smaller in Japan. So, um, but you know, I think, you know, I'm six one, I'm riding a 9, 8, 9 10.

Yep. I, I probably could be riding a 10 footer.

Yeah.

Devon Howard: But I say I would never go less than the minimum is like having it be at least three and a half feet over, over your head. So you have that proportionality to get really good nose riding. It's hard to get insane nose rides on a short one. You, you can hang five on like an eight footer.

If a, a guy my size could, it would be really challenging to hang 10 on it.

Yeah. Yeah, you need

Devon Howard: the, the proportion of how the hydrodynamics and like how water needs to come up over the deck.

Mm-hmm.

Devon Howard: And the, the, the length of where the tail of the board is to where you are in the pocket. If it's a shorter distance, you can't physically get the board up and elevated and stuck in the wave face.

It just, I'm sure a physics major could explain it, but Yeah. I can just tell you in practice it's really difficult to do, but you could do it with your feet a little further apart.

Yeah. You could

Devon Howard: get a really five Yeah. Um, hanging 10 on an eight foot board, a guy my size would be tough, but somebody, I weigh almost 200 pounds.

Michael Frampton: Mm. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm five 11 and a half and I'm 180 pounds, 80 kilos. And that's a nine eight that Wayne recommended. So we're kind of, um, that's a great, yeah, and I've got a nine, I've got a nine three as well. Longboard. It's, I struggled to nose ride that. It's too small. So there's a couple of guidelines for, for those out there that who are wondering.

Devon Howard: Yeah, that would be too small. You, you can't get in enough steps. It's like you can get like two or three steps and the guy your size will find that you, you know, like if I had another six inches I could get in that extra step. You're almost in an awkward, it puts you in an awkward position. Even if you could, once you get to the nose, you could physically hang 10 on a board that size, but the steps will feel a little bit off to you.

The rhythm of that dance would feel like a nine, seven for me. I, I'm. Six oh and a half. I'll take, I'll, I love taking credit for half. Uh, come back in a few years, I'll be shrunk. Six. But I remember on nine sixes and sevens, I would always just kind of have this weird last bit of the run to the nose. And then when I went to nine, nine, it sounds ridiculous, it was only a few inches, but it was just enough to iron all that out.

And the surf, the surfing and the footwork got smoother less. It was less kind of choppy. 'cause I, I would see myself going to the nose and then I would have to shorten or widen the step depending on what was happening. Yep. To get that foot placement.

Yep.

Devon Howard: , So I think if you're, I think if you're six foot and you're going for a nose rider, you're, you, you are 9, 8, 9, 10.

You could go 10. Oh. If you are like 5 8, 5 9, you're probably a nine, four to nine six person.

Yep.

Devon Howard: You're below that. Let's say you're like five, four to five, six. You're like a nine. Two or nine. Oh,

Michael Frampton: yep. Some good advice there.

Devon Howard: Yeah. Rough. This

Michael Frampton: and those. There's

Devon Howard: no rules. These are just guidelines.

Michael Frampton: Exactly. Surfing has no rules. , So if those who are listening who want to learn, uh, specifically about nose riding, we can go back to episode 41, which was Devon and I's Devon's original appearance on this podcast. And I just re-released that episode, , on YouTube. And, I wasn't filming the podcast back then, but, , Devon kindly sent through some footage, some nose riding and longboarding footage so you can watch, , Devon Nose Ride and Longboard Surf whilst listening to that conversation, which I sort of recut as well.

So it's a little bit shorter and it's available on YouTube at Surf Mastery, on the YouTube channel as well. , Have a link to that in the show notes. , Devon Howard, thank you so much for coming on again. Appreciate it.

Devon Howard: Thank you, , whoever is still with us, and, hopefully it made sense.

Michael Frampton: Well, like you said, , it's an age old conversation and it you know, sport art, it will continue on. But, , I think it's a, an important one to to talk about thinking about it deeply helped my surfing my experience of surfing, the way I look at surfing, board choice, , those deeper thoughts, those philosophical thoughts that we have about surfing in influence our surfing life a lot.

So thanks for weighing in. I appreciate it.

Devon Howard: Be Yeah, thanks for thinking of me. We will hopefully see you soon in the water.

Michael Frampton: All right, thanks Devon.

Devon Howard: Cheers.

Surfing: Art or Sport? with Devon Howard - You Tube Video: https://youtu.be/u3Konnsaf9M?si=djDt0byl8Wj9lpi4

The Surf Mastery Podcast: 

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

Is surfing just a sport—or is it something much deeper, a form of art that mirrors your soul?

Whether you're a weekend warrior or a lifelong wave chaser, you've likely felt that indescribable magic in the water. This episode dives into that very feeling, exploring how surfing transcends competition and becomes a deeply personal, creative expression. If you've ever wondered why your best session had nothing to do with trophies, you're not alone.

• Discover why Donald Brink believes surfing is more about galleries than stadiums—and how that insight can reshape your approach to every wave.

• Learn how intention, presence, and lifelong curiosity can turn every surf session into a meaningful act of self-expression.

• Hear how legendary surfers and everyday wave riders alike find purpose, growth, and connection through a pursuit that often defies explanation.

Tune in to hear Donald Brink unpack the soulful side of surfing and walk away seeing your next session as more than just a ride—it could be your masterpiece.

www.brinksurf.com

https://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=en

Transcript:

Michael Frampton: [00:00:00] Well, you mentioned them being art, which segues us into, I wanted to talk about, which was. Is surfing an art or a sport, or both? Now let me, , I'll tease you a little bit with some of my thoughts and then I'll, we'll get you to weigh in.

So, the Oxford Dictionary defines a sport as senses relating to play pleasure or entertainment. , Some other, uh, definitions, , diversion, entertainment, fun, , frequently with modifying objective, , , activity that you do for pleasure and that needs physical effort or skill, usually done in a special area and according to fixed rules.

So surfing definitely fits within most of that definition. Maybe not fixed rules, of course, if it's competition, it definitely does. And the actual, those are sort of some modern dictionary definitions of sport. And the etymology actually hasn't changed much in the origin of the word. I will [00:01:00] add I think those that have a background where their sporting youth was competitive, , you would immediately think that sport was, , competitive as well.

And so obviously surfing fits that, but only in a small niche, OO of a hundred, uh, people, sort of, or a handful of competitive surfers in the world. Mm-hmm. Then art, which is definitely has a, some lucid definitions, but the dictionary may explain art, is in the use of the imagination to express ideas or feelings.

, That can definitely, uh, explain surfing for a lot of us. Uh, the expression of ideas and emotions through a physical medium, often with the intent to evoke a worthwhile experience. Definitely surfing fits that. Something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings.

Again, another definition of art, which I think surfing for [00:02:00] me at least, fits in there. The etymology of art. , Basically put a skill as a result of learning or practice.

Donald Brink: Mm-hmm.

Obviously how art thou art has been used in other ways, , which sort of comes back to one's identity as well, which I think, is a cool little nuance there.

'cause obviously a lot of us as surfers, we identify as surfers. It's not just something we do. , So there's a little bit of a history of the two words. , And I'd like to hear your thoughts, Donald.

Donald Brink: Those, those definitions definitely have an overlap. And I think I would've, , if you asked me to choose one, I would choose art.

And I, I think that, , that's changed over time and my confidence in, I, I want be rather just choose one so that it, so obviously it's both, but I would say it's art. And the [00:03:00] reason I'm more adamant on that now is because that's changed over time. Because even my work, people often ask like, oh, oh, these boards, it's such art, you know?

And I'm like. No, it's like they're beautiful. They like, it's like, well, I want to hang it on the wall. It's like, no, just go surf. It's, it's like I, I do paint pictures as well, and you're like, that's art. You hang that on the wall, that's gonna, you're not gonna surf that. And then you start to realize either it's all art or none of it is.

And, and that's a brave statement. And, and it's not to be cute. And therefore, to me, surfing is art because it has such, , depth and value and meaning to yourself and the inspirations. And, , the things that come along with the, the surfing life to me are sometimes indescribable. And that's what art is.

You know, it's really hard to quantify exactly which brush stroke meant that thing come [00:04:00] together, which part of the light in a photograph. Convey that emotion and you don't want to start to study it in such depth that it, um, kills the bird to find the song that then vanishes. So you start to see these metaphors trip on themselves.

And, , I prefer if, if there's art in everything to be endlessly fascinated by art, then this is art. And that isn't, 'cause those binary thoughts to me just make it, , they put endpoints on, on potential new horizons or potential dreams. And that's happened to me. Like a lot of board design, not a lot, but from time to time there's been waves I've dreamt about, or boards that I've dreamt about, or boards that I've dreamt on waves about.

And those are treasured things. And I'll, I'll wrap this thought up with this. I, , I got to meet Phil Edwards. . A few months ago. I, I've seen him before. I, I'd never met him before. And, [00:05:00] uh, yeah. I was endlessly obviously inspired and fascinated by his legacy to surfing. And a mutual friend wanted to bring him by my shop and introduce us and I was like, such an honor.

Right. You know, like, get him to meet Phil Edwards and he came down to the shop. , He was such a lovely man. We, we, how we, we got on like a house on fire. It was great. We were talking boats and design and all kinds of things. And I, one of the reasons I was so interested in him was 'cause he stopped surfing years ago.

Just stopped surfing. And I, I was like, I'm always like, man, how do you just stop surfing? That's just strange to me. Right. And I wasn't sure how to ask that 'cause I wasn't conducting an interview. I wasn't sure it was even my place or space to ask. So I, I asked him flat out, I was like, this is, I'm not sure how it's gonna go.

But I was like, Phil, do you miss surfing? No, it was about as, as, , as much energy in the way I said it then as it was when I just said it to you now, like, Phil, do you miss surfing? And he looked at me and, and he didn't hesitate much at all. He said, [00:06:00] you know, I have dreams about it and it's still so vivid, it's amazing.

And he shared one or two things and we moved on and I was like, wow. It was as though he's still surfing. And it left me more confused and even more interested because I was like, man, imagine the, the data points that I'm getting from my surf just yesterday and potentially that I could get from today's surf could be things storing up inside, which you would hate to meter or measure, but they're in you.

And I think they come out of one without being governed or policed, and therefore they're precious. I wanna respect them, and that, that's how art feels to me. I, I've been working on some mixed media, like, like challenging pieces, really like pushing myself as a creative being. And I say that because I can feel [00:07:00] the angst and ah, I can phone this in and just make it look pretty or I can try and find new ground.

And, and when you do, stuff comes out from within that halfway through, you get these break points and they're like, wow, I, I didn't know I could do that. And it's, and you, it's not that you're impressing yourself. You, you just can't believe that you were able to be part of this dance of something that came to life, , really through you, not from you.

And I'll challenge people to, to compare this to what they've felt in their own surfing. You know, you, you're out there sometimes and maybe it's even when there's a waves are good and then you take off on this little wave. My point is sometimes the most rewarding sensations come from the most surprising little nuanced events, or the most unlikely timing of things.

, And there's just so much input on the sensors. It's such a sensory activity. [00:08:00] In fact, you would say it's sensational. And that, that used to really bug me, that that's all surfing was. The whole thing's just sensational. And I was challenging myself. What, or am I trying to ascribe too much to what surfing is?

Am I trying to add too much value to it? 'cause I'm so either ridiculously into it or, or am I trying to put meaning to something that really doesn't have meaning and therefore make it okay? And no, I love it. I'm so grateful for it. I think it's entirely creative. If you want it to be. And, and I, I think the whole thing is art beyond, beyond words because you can't find the words to explain something to somebody else that meant so much to you.

And over time those meanings and those things compound. So sport's cute, but I like to do art and I really, I really think because of that, you could be put [00:09:00] into, oh yeah, well you're an artist. And I'll kick back on that saying I think we're all artists and I, I've practiced art a lot and I've also practiced surfing a lot.

And therefore I see the similarities and, you know, I think it's, , the act of surfing it, it really needs to be. Put together as, uh, the adjective and the noun. I guess now I'm talking out of turn, but the, the practice of surfing is something I like to say sometimes audibly. It's like, I'm going to practice surfing today.

And it changes the energy in the, in the approach or, , the act of surfing lifestyle, the surfing lifestyle or the surfing life. , These are words you read on book covers, but I think they're really well thought out, you know? , So I don't mind how surfing's explained. I just don't like to be, I don't like to to have end points within my own understanding of it, because it keeps showing itself to be bigger and more beautiful and deeper [00:10:00] and with a bigger and broader community of, of things indescribable for all points of view.

And for me, that's important and I'm grateful to be part of that. But, , that's more of a, , gallery setting than a stadium. Mm. And both are cute and both, both are necessary, but I would, I would prefer to be at the gallery.

Yeah. No, that was beautiful. I loved that. And , the more I think about it and the more I analyze it, it actually makes me realize that surfing more and more is an art and not a sport.

. It is a sport as well, don't get me wrong. If you go by those, , the definitions in air quotes, and I think for a lot of people it is only a sport because it's just something they do for a little bit of recreation here and there. And then obviously, obviously you've got the highly competitive people who treat it as a competitive sport.

But for most of us, and I'd say everyone listening to this show, it is an art

Donald Brink: for

sure. [00:11:00]

Donald Brink: And I think I'm not against sport. And that's where I think this could be like, it's like, are you for sport or are you for art? And that sounds like we're both for both. But I love the concept of sport. I just, I, I just think if I had to shake, that's why I was, I'm gonna choose one lane to honor that.

So it's like, uh, I think it's more art than sports. , Yeah. Yes. And the other thing too is that it's so personal and it's like there's not many other sports which have such a, , closed feedback loop within just oneself. Like a team sport would naturally be your team player when you enter the ocean.

, You might be amongst people, but you're really playing different games on the same court. You know, it's you and the ocean and your thoughts, but , the, the school is within your own life and you take away what I call stoke or those little joyous moments. Frustrating ones too. So there's wins and losses, but they, they're kept within one's own heart.[00:12:00]

Mm-hmm.

Donald Brink: And therefore, it's hard to show me another sport where that happens. So consistently at choice.

Yeah. No surfing is closer to music than it is tennis.

Donald Brink: Like, I like the concept. What I do like about parameters is they produce really good art. If somebody commissions you to do a piece and you have to, and there's a couple of confines or a narrative script or whatever, it, it really helps give a narrative guideline. And, and it, I think it helps produce good art.

Agreed. Putting some confines and so that's why surfing competition is actually really interesting. Just to put a clock against the heat. You surfing against the clock. They're all really good. So. I, I do think therefore you could even argue, that's why the art's so good, because now that's you've put confines.

Well, that's the [00:13:00] irony of it all. You look at a competitive surfer. The the ones that win, they're the, they're the best artists. The, I think the only competition in competitive surfing is like the strategy stuff, not the surfing itself. Right? It's the strategy and all that other bs. But once you're on a wave, even John, John surfing a wave in a competition is art.

And that's why he's so good, because he is an artist. He's dancing with the wave.

Donald Brink: I, I agree. , And so therefore it's like, yeah, those confines produced better art, so therefore it's art. It's, but my, back to my point, it's like trying to think of another sport where you are, , selecting to be so individualistic in your pursuits over and over.

. 'Cause people often look at surfing at, at first glance, it seems like quite a selfish activity. And I'm sure it can be. I mean, it certainly can be. , But when you realize if you could cultivate your fascination for the sea, [00:14:00] it could be, , you could be a better husband for the teacher partner by your not surfing too much and also not surfing too little, right?

It's pretty simple. So once you balance that fascination, that gets very, very powerful. And I don't see, or at least I can't think of another sport. 'cause I often think, man, what if I didn't get to surf or I couldn't surf anymore? Like, what would I switch this out for? And it, it ends in tears every time.

I'm like, I've gotten so much outta surfing. And then you're like, man, am I so shallow that I, I hedge so much on this and I'm sure I'll find something or get really busy doing other things. , But. I can't, you know, I can't, I can't, I can't imagine replacing it. And I think you'd have to replace it with many things.

. Yeah. To

Donald Brink: fill the complexity of the, and that's why it's unique. That's what I love about it. It's so complex, like these central downloads that you go and get and those humbling [00:15:00] experiences, like being scared in the ocean is something that I do not take, take lightly. I mean, scared for your life at times.

And that is such a gift to choose to do because many people don't get scared by choice often at all. And so to do that at will, the learnings that you once again, take away for yourself and you return to your tribe or your family, or your place, your, your neighborhood, your community, you return as a different person.

Mm.

Donald Brink: That's a beautiful thing, you know?

Yeah. Maybe martial arts encompasses some of the things in surfing and that way it's, it's, it's risky. You're playing with the power of something external.

Donald Brink: Mm-hmm.

You have to be very skillful and relaxed in order to do it well.

Donald Brink: Yeah. But I think the difference, uh, I like that.

Sorry, I'm not [00:16:00] trying to be right here. I think the difference here is that you'll never overcome or, impose your will on the ocean. Doesn't matter how frustrated you get at the wave, it's, it's always going to, it, it's, the ocean's just so big. It's would be like trying to fight the mountain. So in martial arts, you'll, you'll generally explore with another human.

So there's, within your mind, there's this concept of day one today. Whereas when you surf, the sea will always win. You're not stopping the tide. It's, it'll come up and down twice a day. That's what it does.

And

Donald Brink: there's a, that's where the humility comes. It's like, you know, you can't win. You're not, you don't go to the ocean to win.

You go to the ocean to, , be part at best. , Yeah. Uh, so yeah, I've thought about this too much, it sounds like, but um, that's, that's why I'm like, no. The other sports that we, I always end up in these little cul-de-sacs. I'm like, no, no, no, no. It's,

mm. Yeah. I mean, there's so many reasons why [00:17:00] I think surfing is more of an art.

Then you're connecting with nature. It's, it's all, it's borderline a religious experience. It's the, it's challenging. It's scary. It's fun, it's playful, it's artistic, it's creative. It's,

Donald Brink: mm-hmm.

And those restrictions that you might, if you're commissioned to do a painting, has certain restrictions. Well, same with surfing.

The waves are the way they are. The board you chose to ride that day is the way it is. Mm-hmm. The crowd is only gonna gift you certain waves. Like there are so many restrictions every time you go surfing. And if you can play the hand, you're dealt Right. You have the opportunity to dance with the wave however you want to and create yourself as long as you're in the right spot yourself.

Yeah, exactly.

Donald Brink: And not getting in anyone's way. Yeah. Yeah. It, it's interesting. That's. Think about these things when you're trying to understand like, you know, what a [00:18:00] governing body or a sport entity is doing right or wrong within a surf space. See how well I worded that? But you know, like the judgment on how to run a surf competition is, um, you know, it's endless.

But I'm always wondering is like, it's almost 'cause it's, it's not a sport and everyone wants it to be a sport 'cause they're getting paid dollars to win, right? Or dollars to be endorsed. But the best parts that we love about surfing, like if, if there were no competitions you would land up with, what we would have left with would be amazing surf films and people enjoying the ocean every day.

So if you think about the best parts, and this is just me talking now, but when I think about I do, I watch, I follow all the tour and everything and the like, some of the best parts are the fact that it's almost like a live version of a surf movie. And so it's still. It still is what we always will want and need and enjoy, but it doesn't necessarily make it a sport, it's just there's an [00:19:00] overlap of the things that it'll always be.

Um, it's, it's just, it's really interesting and I, I do think it helps surfing and it makes surfing more understandable and more broad. And yet all of these things really don't matter. 'cause if you don't like surfing, then it doesn't matter. 'cause it's those who do will cherish it and hopefully be responsible with it.

But yeah, it's, I, I don't know. Like

I think you have to, ah, I'm talking in the wrong space. Yeah. But yeah, no, I think that,

that, there's an, an interesting irony there because even those who treat surfing like a sport to the extreme, the professional surfer in a competition when they're actually doing the act of surfing. It is an art form, the same, the same way that an Olympic gymnast is judged.

The, the ones who do it, the smoothest and the most beautiful and turn the sport [00:20:00] of gymnastics into an art form, those are the ones that win. Mm-hmm.

Donald Brink: Yeah. It's, it's, it's neat to have winners. Um, it's, we like winning.

It's funny, I was thinking about this just being on the Gold Coast at Burleigh, and if you had to suspend the competition and just have a group consensus of who surfed the point the best over two weeks, I think you'd actually land up with similar winners. Right. There'd be some incredible standout locals watching them understand that wave and surf it so well.

But my point is, good surfing is inspirational. Like watching somebody. Put a performance, and you could call it a performance together. It's, it's so just, um, it's amazing and the depth and detail and nuances to us endlessly fascinating, but also to a layman, somebody walking up the point watching a competent surfer put a ride [00:21:00] together is it's, it's quite obvious, right?

So like having to put clocks and jerseys and heats and buoys in place just to find that is almost hilarious. Like at the end of the day, the ocean knows we know, and yet none of it matters. And yes, it's still interesting, but you know, there's, here's my point. You know, those days when you, you went surfing and you realized that you were so in tune and you, you kind of surfed beyond what you thought you could and you didn't win anything and it didn't matter.

Mm.

Donald Brink: That, that is quite a beautiful thing. I think very rarely we've seen somebody do that in a final, and that would be the highest level of sport, right? To see somebody just lose themselves in a performance. And it's from time to time. I'm sure that happens, but my point is like, if you are not that person and [00:22:00] it, it really doesn't matter to you.

So the fact that you can level up and go beyond yourself within these, within a sort of, and find new levels and heights and connections and have a dance put together on a wave, let alone a bunch of wave and put a session together. Like are we constantly at sport with ourselves then, is the question?

Hmm.

And in terms of winning? Yeah. Because like you described that the moment where you surfed better than you had, you won. Oh yeah. You won against. Yourself yesterday. Right? So you became a hundred percent, you became a better artist, let's say. And I, I think the competition surfer, I think when a competition surfer wins, they, the feeling is similar in [00:23:00] a way.

'cause they know, oh man, I surf that wave beautifully, probably because of the pressure. Pressure makes, made a diamond in that case. And not only did I win the thrill of the wave, I won some money, which gives me the opportunity to surf this amazing, the, the next amazing wave next year with only two people in the water and create more art and, right.

So I think you we're winning a surf competition. I mean, look at Kelly Slater. He just kept on doing it. I don't think he, he didn't need the money. He didn't necessarily need any more trophies. I think he just wanted to surf pipeline with two other people in the water again.

Donald Brink: Well played. I mean, that, that's the game of life then, not the game of surfing.

It's like, oh, you get to jump through these hoops and you get, these are the little perks, you know, it's, that's quite brilliant. You know, we, I mean, you do that in any decision in life. You, you play the game according to your lifestyle you're looking for. So it's back to lifestyle now. [00:24:00] And therefore that's quite a creative composition of how to spend your days or your best, um, cardiovascular years, let alone your joints.

Um, and for me, I choose surfing and it's, um, it that shows itself from time to time in conversations where, like, I, I have foil board at one time and it was incredible, but I, I just chose to not invest in spending that much time getting good at something else, which I know I'm gonna love. 'cause I wanted, I know life short and I want to be so deep in what I'm doing that I.

I dunno if it's wrong or right, but for me I was like, I'm gonna stay purely focused in this lane 'cause it helps me understand my work. And I'm not judging anyone being divided in interests, but I knew how much time it would take someone like myself to get proficient at foiling. And so I was like, that looks incredible for me.

I'm gonna say no, only 'cause I'm looking for a, uh, I know I could surf better and [00:25:00] deeper with the consistency that I'm still chasing. I think the consistency in surfing is the measure that most people don't talk about, and to me is the most important thing. , And the most consistent I can be with my approach to any day, any board, any session, and be in control of that consistency is really what I'm aspiring to.

'cause that then you can tap in and balance yourself in life like I can. Pop in at the beach for 40 minutes at the right time of the day with the right equipment, ride six waves, and be back to work and be radically changed with the shortest amount of, neglect to other things that I'm really interested in too, whether it be work or art.

Right. So therefore that's, that's a creative balance. And therefore surfing is, it's, uh, I don't, even if you wouldn't agree, that's the creative act of surfing is creative, that the balance of its lifestyle is quite creative, you know?

. Yeah. You've gotta stay on top of your skills, otherwise [00:26:00] you can't take those opportunities.

Like, if you've got the opportunity to, to attend band practice once every month, and you don't practice in between, you're not gonna, you're not gonna enjoy that rehearsal hour that much because your skills aren't sharp and you didn't, you didn't sink in with the, with the song. Right.

Donald Brink: I think the future of surfing is being able to be accurate in challenging conditions.

I'll say it again, accuracy in challenging conditions. I've, I've summed it up that succinctly because I've thought about this so much, but I think as surfing gets more crowded and popular, uh, the difficult waves are gonna be the ones you get to enjoy either on your own or on the smallest or fewest people are like the smallest crowd, right?

But they're harder to surf. That's why no one wants to mess with them. But if you're able to tap into that and either stay polished or just have fun and that's what you enjoy, I think it's really difficult to, to ride small, weak [00:27:00] waves. But it's, it's of huge value if you wanna stay tuned for when good waves do come or when you do get chance to be on a trip, or when you do get a day when it's too big for everyone else to paddle out.

Like there's, there's a repetition and a favor to trying to stay. Um. But also that needs to be fun in and of itself. And I'm endlessly fascinated by these, um, small and crowded waves that I choose and get to ride on my own. And I'm not sure if it's just 'cause it's, it's better than fighting in a crowd or if it really is of long-term value, but it doesn't really matter.

It's just interesting to me. So yeah, I'd rather set better wage, but also it's maybe not like when you really look back like what is surfing? And you're like, it's the pursuit of excellence within oneself. It means nothing to anyone else. So like if you said it was, um, [00:28:00] if you, sometimes I think of serving as a puzzle.

What's the next piece to put together within a performance on that wave, let alone waves within a session you could build, , really difficult puzzles.

That's quite a radical choice. So back to making things hard to get more out of it. Yeah. That's, that's just an interesting part of life.

. Yeah. Imposing new challenges. It certainly elicits the flow state.

Donald Brink: I like that you said flow state, because as you said, imposing new challenges. I was like, I, I, I don't know that surfing and tricks need to be, so, um, that sounds kind of sporty to me, like the tricks within surfing.

It's like, well, yeah, there are maneuvers that seem unnecessary and they probably feel good and that's why you do 'em. But then there's efficiency in [00:29:00] connecting energy parts of a wave that we put together as what we call a beautifully ridden wave that felt good to do. That's what I'm consistently talking about.

And if that requires an air within that, that's great. But the, once we consider categories of technique and, and, um, proficiency in a trick, I get a little lost. Can't do most of them, that's for sure. But that is a different thing. And I watched the wholesale vibe. It was fantastic. Like,

yeah, yeah. It's, but it's a

Donald Brink: different thing at that point.

Surfing, I think simple surfing is the best, you

Donald Brink: know? Well, until, until you realize it is, it might not be for you. And that's why it's, it's your own thing. Like it's, it's your own fascination. Like what are you really, fa like those ISTs must be incredibly fascinated by putting their body at those potentially dangerous positions over and over.

Like [00:30:00] the, like imagine being injured and sitting out for that many months, that many times within a life that you're only 24 years deep in. I'm not sure I'm willing to risk that. And so you let some sections go, right? It's just a different fascination and an incredibly incredible ability and incredible amounts of, um, refinement gone into consistently pulling off maneuvers like that Netherland in a shallow pool.

Um, it's like, what are you, fascinating? What are you fascinating with? And how do you unpack that best? Um, that that's, that's how you would approach a complex puzzle or a challenging art piece. It's just problem solving, right? Like how, I'm not sure which, which part of this next paintings a layer or, and then you, and then you break through and you find, ah, and then you get a little more momentum and then.

You get, uh, you get the wobblies and then you lose confidence, and then [00:31:00] you get these little breakthroughs and then all of a sudden it's done and you at best know when to stop. And that's good editing. And that's probably the hardest part. It's kind of like surfing too, and it's like, okay, it's time to end the session and the waves are still pumping and you didn't have to be anywhere.

But sometimes it's sit on the beach and watch the next four sets and just realize what you've been a part of. That's maybe a maturity that I'm starting to see. And it's, it, it, um, it doesn't add value to the session. It just helps resonate the memories that you've gleaned and therefore maybe files them better and protect, I don't know, maybe I'll get to dream out of or from them.

So being really precious with those, um, times.

Yeah. Do, do you think surfing becomes more of an art. The older you get or the better you get or the more experienced you get?

Donald Brink: A

hundred

Donald Brink: percent. I think, I think one, one of the thoughts I had [00:32:00] today was, , if you think of surfing as an art, then it's like, well, there's some pretty bad art out there, mine included.

At times you make terrible decisions or distasteful selections on a wave or on a board color or in a wetsuit choice. Like, like it's still life. The, it's not a, it's, it's not a hundred percent all the time. How boring would that be? And, and yet you see people's growth within their own surfing life. And that's why you don't want to judge.

And these statements really need to be taken with huge amounts of salt, please. But you see people new to surfing that get fascinated deep enough, and then they wanna learn so badly that they'll almost like get in their own way. Then others just naturally acquire these skills and they're quite proficient and you realize they're probably good at a lot of things.

They try, you know those people, right?

Mm.

Donald Brink: Um, they're just really quick learners or like taking feedback or pinpoints. And now with the amount of [00:33:00] coaching available and those kinds of opportunities, you can learn, you can shortcut the learning really quickly. And yet still, if surfing is an art, then your creative body of work is really your surfing life, your surfing lifestyle, the way you understand what surfing is to you and how you responsibly cultivate that relationship with surfing, which means with surfing and everybody else in your life too.

There's, there's other relationships. It's always complex, right? Um, I think you'll see people surfing change over time and yeah, things go in and out of style and in and out of fashion, but you creatively get more, um, astute to what this thing means to you and how to balance it. . I think if you are only fascinated by very, very good waves, there'll be a time when surfing just gets so frustrated and you hang it up.

I can think of so many people that have done that, and that's interesting. It's, it's not our, I am, and I'm kind of grateful for that. 'cause I'm kind of not sure what I'd switch [00:34:00] it out for. So that's their path to discover. But right now I'm fascinated by how it is and how I'm approaching it daily now.

I guess surfing is like, if you think of, let's take, let's take music as an art form. If you are, if you first start learning the guitar

Donald Brink: mm-hmm.

Are you practicing art?

Donald Brink: No. You, you, you practice so that one day you can play. That practice, if possible, should be fun 'cause it keeps you interested. And if you're interested for long enough, one day you might be able to play a song and sound like you would like it to sound.

So when you learn to surf, you're practicing surfing, and one day you might get a really nice wave, come to you and you'll blow your mind that the, the feeling [00:35:00] of how that felt and the how ridiculously happy you feel for the next day, week, month, year. I don't know. My point is you walk away with that sensational, change the stoke, right?

So I do think there are times when you practice surfing and there are times when you perform surfing and they're usually, um, premeditated. And if so often there is a overlap within it. Days when I'm on the beach training and I, I've used those words. I'm either going to therapy or I'm going to training and I'm surfing all by myself.

Meaning I know the kinds of things I'm working on, like riding very difficult boards is a hard pill to swallow except I know what I'm looking for. And so that would be training, that would be like exercising one's ability, refining your ability, highlighting [00:36:00] your pain points. So there are times when I practice surfing

like a musician, learning a new scale

Donald Brink: a hundred percent.

And therefore I'm staying tuned, I'm staying activated, I'm staying interested and not all of it is fun. And yet I know I'm on the larger overarching NA narrative. This is gonna return dividends. 'cause on the right section, I know my arms are gonna be in the right place. And with these films on this rail.

This feeling is what I'm not chasing, but when it comes, I'm gonna be so grateful for it.

Yeah. That's why I like that. Yeah. I I It's your intention, isn't it? If you're practicing or you're learning how to do something, but you're doing it because, like, think of music. If you, you're, you're practicing the guitar, you're doing it because you want to be good at the guitar as an artist.

Donald Brink: Mm-hmm.

Right? Not as a professional or a sportsman or whatever. [00:37:00]

Donald Brink: Right. It's such a creative outlet. Like it's nauseating when you see somebody surfing really well on your, can't surf as well as that. Right. And you're like, wow, that must feel amazing. And yet to them it probably, it feels okay because they, they, until they're pushing themselves that feeling, and that's why I don't like the thing of tricks.

It's like, it's not like until they land on your trick, they probably won't feel happy. It's, if you are not in tune, no matter how well you're surfing, you know that you're missing out on what you could have done or wanna do. Right? So your vision for how to surf that wave with, with flow and seamless transitions and reading the wave properly should be always growing.

And when you do from time to time, get it right, it's undeniable. That's what keeps you coming back. So I think looking at other people surfing and imposing what you are able to do or can't do, you gotta be careful for that. You wanna push yourself constantly. And that's a practice. , , I mean, it's [00:38:00] almost like, it's like people learning to surf shouldn't ride good waves, which is a terrible statement, but it kind of could hold up, you know?

Like there would be, I. If you went to low as an only really proficient surfer surfed out there, it would be an entirely different experience. Now, you wouldn't wanna put a gate on the, on the, at the, at the sea. Like you don't wanna, you know, gatekeeper the place. However, if you work on your surfing well enough and you get proficient enough, when you do get to surf a good wave, you are not gonna be in the way, you're gonna be in the right part of the way of doing the right thing, and the memory's gonna be really rich.

So, yeah, I, I, I'm still trying, I'm trying to lend a surf still.

Mm-hmm. Which

Donald Brink: is incredibly fun.

Yeah. The, the guitarist sits alone in the bedroom doing a lot of practice. They don't [00:39:00] practice on stage.

Donald Brink: Please, no. Get off the stage. Go learn your, go learn your stuff.

It's not the time or the place. Yeah. You might as well go down to the closeout beach and just catch white water after white water and practice your timing.

There's reps

Donald Brink: exactly. There's reps to be had with nobody around. And, and if you, if you, if you do speak to musicians long enough, there is this relationship with that practice. You know, it's kind of still, it's still really fun. And so if you think of surfing as a sport, then you would train for sport. And yet why you would think it is a sport.

'cause it's like people will switch it out for another sporty activity. It's like, well I'm not, I'm not running at the moment, so, but I've been surfing a lot. I haven't been going to the gym. I've been So you're switching it out for a cardiovascular. Endure endorphin releasing kind of activity. And that's, that's all true.

But then you also need to switch it out for, well, [00:40:00] that means you should be, you, you're working on your pedal technique when you're surfing. Right. And then, and how the breathing exercise is going. And, um, the wave Ki program, how, which, which module, like there's parts of the responsibility to it being a practice that is pretty obvious if you want to call it a sport.

And yet even more logical if you're creating art, 'cause you work on how things work and then you manipulate them or be able to play with them without of your, your, um, pantry of options.

Yeah. You can, you separate practice and play. You're still an artist.

Donald Brink: They coexist. There are times when I'll approach the sea and I'm certainly putting my hand up. Yes, this is a practicing session. I'm going to practice surfing, and yet there's still moments within which good surfing is happening, and I have the most amazing joy. So there's a performance that means nothing to anyone except myself.

That's what surfing is. I [00:41:00] think that's odd, but they do overlap by the strangest ways, but they are, um, I just don't like that hard line between like the sep binary separation between practice and then performance. It's more, um,

the lines are blurred as you,

Donald Brink: uh, I'm trying to think the best way to, I was, this is one of the things I was thinking about, but, , I grew up studying the Bible a lot and there's a verse in the Bible.

That, and it didn't, A lot of it still doesn't make sense, that's for sure. And, and it's, most of it's like skewed in a narrative that that's just, it's silly. Anyway, there's incredible wisdom there that I do look for. And, and the wisdom rings true, and therefore I like it. Anyway, there is a verse that says, go into all the world and share the gospel, and that gets like, oh, you should do it this way.

But the, the [00:42:00] verse actually says, as you go into the world, and so what I was thinking about was like, is surfing who you are, what you do, but it's the way you do it, the way you, you go about life as a surfer. You do not drive down PCH without looking at the waves. Once you've started surfing, that's, it changes who you are.

So as you go about surfing, the way you can conduct yourself as this artist, if it's art. Is there therein, I think is what the message was. That's that. If those were the words of Jesus, they make total sense. 'cause they, that seems to be true. You know, you can carry that with you. It's the way you go, as you go.

Um, anyway, that, that was the best way I could understand it within my own self. 'cause I've wrestled with that thing before and I was like, well, that kind of makes sense with the art and the, the sport thing. So,

so is

Donald Brink: for whatever, is it worth surfing? Is gospel, [00:43:00] no, surfing is art. And if art has truth within it to you, then it'll be true somewhere else too.

Like, so you can't force a narrative on somebody else. But if I talk about these things in surfing and you haven't felt them within yourself, then why does it matter? But if you have, then we resonate on a similar thing. And I'm not trying to be right, but if that makes a difference to how you see or understand something that that could be really joyous within your own life.

Like this has got nothing to do with you or I, it's got to do with whoever's listening and there surfing. Right? Like I constantly have to remind myself, and it just happens naturally, really. But to get out of the, the what's going on and that it's going on, like you remove yourself from this. 'cause like, otherwise surfing is just selfish again, but it's, it feels something that you then bring back to the rest of of life with you.

Mm-hmm.[00:44:00]

Donald Brink: Yeah, I agree. It's quite simple and yet it's really difficult to put words to, and here I'm rambling on and on and on, but it, it, I do wanna be careful 'cause the words matter, you know, like, . I think not not trying to bring meaning to surfing, but just acknowledging that it has great meaning is, is enough for me.

And it's taken years to get to a place being so comfortable to say that. And I think I didn't grow up in a surfing family. They have no idea about what this whole thing's about. It's pretty hilarious. And now having a young family and my son surfs and we are enjoying sessions together, it's such a joy.

But they all know how much surfing means to me, and they, yet they don't understand that at the depth, nor will they ever, and that's okay. Well,

Let's say you have Kelly Slater and Messi, the, the Great Footballer Messi. Sure. Both, both are artists, I would say.

I would say Messi is an artist within the sport of football. [00:45:00]

Donald Brink: Mm-hmm.

And I think that he would say that football is a bit more than a sport for him personally. Of course, like his relationship with the field and the ball and the goal and the opposition, et cetera. He would probably describe it similar to the way you and I might talk about surfing.

His love of the great game and, and then when you watch him play, he's, the ball is on a string and he's, he's doing art. So I think that for surfers, surfing is your thing, but then other people, whether it's football or cross stitch or whatever it is, I think almost any pursuit can be an art if it's given enough.

. If it's given the permission, if you give yourself permission for it to be an art, and it means that much to you. So the best, right? The, the people that are at the top of their field that do whatever it is, beautifully, you could say it's an [00:46:00] art for them, whether that's a sport like football or tennis, or whether that's painting or music.

Donald Brink: Well, there's a mastery there for sure. , Yeah, I, I agree. If, I mean, if something's fascinating enough, you'll go deep within it and within depth , there's incredible beauty, you know, , messy and Kelly have complex lives, and yet they've seen something deeper than most other humans would ever see in that space.

But that even at the end of it, it only means anything to them. And then we can glean and look and listen from it. But at the end of the day, you come back to your own life and your own surfing and your own soccer ball, and who are we? So there's this narrative of like, can I create. But yet I'm also in creation.

It gets as simple as that, you know, like you're part of something and yet it's still you and yours. Um, and then you get to share within that. Like I think the gift that Kelly's given us has been incredible. He [00:47:00] is, , contribution to surfing beyond many other things is very inspirational. And the way he carried that torch, I'm sure he is looked back with regret on some things, but for the most part, like he's incredible ambassador.

You know, I've heard him speak at many things about those kinds of things of how much surfing's giving him and how much he wants to give back. And it just makes sense. Um,

, I was watching this.

Art show. Gosh, it must have been 16, 17 years ago. It was a long time ago. And it was an art competition with these artists that they would give them. , It was kinda like a cooking show. You'd have briefs and then someone got eliminated. Someone got eliminated and throughout the weeks, and then you'd land up with four finalists and they had a commission and they did this thing and they chose the best artist.

And once again, it's like, man, it kind of got cringed 'cause he had to make it competitive to make it meaningful. Anyway, similar to what we're talking about. But I remember, I, there was this one [00:48:00] artist, I really liked his work and, um, he didn't win. But what he did in his final was, it, it was really, it wasn't clever, it was just well thought out and it was moving.

, I, I still remember it. And one of the judges got up. I wish I could, I wish I'd remembered their name. I wrote it on a sticky note and stuck it on the bottom of my computer. And it said, good art isn't what it looks like. It's how it makes you feel. And he didn't win. And that was the condolence to him.

Like, 'cause you could tell he should have won maybe. And yet the scores showed that he didn't. , But that's what they said. They said, good art isn't what it looks like, but how it makes you feel. And it was very helpful for me at the time, creating, I've always been creating, but like formally showing up and getting commissioned or paid to create [00:49:00] something, whether it's a surfboard or a painting, photograph film.

And so therefore understanding that was very helpful. And then when you think of the conversation of surfing being so much of a feeling, and that's okay. There's a, there's a really beautiful overlap there. It's not what it looks like. It's how it makes you feel. You know, when you, it feels like you're ripping and you're not.

And then you learn to surf better and you realize that you're inefficient. And now you can get to more places with more agility and ability and it flows more proficient. Like that's why we want to get better at surfing. But the end of the day, as long as you're not in anyone's way, if it feels good, that's, that's kind of a good thing, you know?

And that's enough. So yeah, I had those thoughts the day thinking back about art and how it feels to create and there was an overlap there for sure. And I dunno what it feels like to be a very proficient [00:50:00] sports person. And that would be interesting to, 'cause I don't know what that's like. So it, it's, it, I don't have a good point of view on that.

So I'm already just talking as an odd point of view. I'm realizing I've played sports, but I'm, I've never been that good at something or played it for this many years, you know?

Well, how it makes you feel. Yeah. As a surfer, nothing feels better than surfing. And if you are a

Donald Brink: surfer

and if you have the perspective that surfing is an art and you're expressing yourself creatively, surfing is an art, especially for you.

And then you take someone like, , I mean the film Kelly Slater Black and White, is a beautiful piece of performance art. Not, not just from Kelly himself, but the filmmakers as well. But obviously the focus is Kelly's surfing, which is performance art. And how does that make us feel when we watch it? Like we almost get, oh wow.

I can imagine what that might feel like. I wanna go surfing [00:51:00] now.

Donald Brink: Right.

So, and then messy playing in front of 50,000 people he's performing there is, is an element of performance art the way he would feel. I. You know, obviously he would love kicking a ball around by himself. But to, to score a goal in front of 50,000 people that are cheering at him, there's a, a certain, a different feeling, not just for him but his supporters as well.

So they would get to feel some of what, oh wow. They can imagine if they play football as well as sitting there watching it. They can imagine what that must feel like to score a goal that beautiful in the heat of the moment and

Donald Brink: Right.

So therefore a sports athlete could also be a performance artist in that scenario as well.

Donald Brink: I mean, you see people like you stand at pipe and watch somebody score a 10, I've done it the last two years. It's pretty incredible. Like watching Baron getting blown out of that wave and the clock time. Like there's an energy within that and [00:52:00] once again, like that becomes bigger than what it was. So therefore, like this whole thing is you, you, you, part of creation he was creating within create, I can't think of better ways to.

Try and understand it within myself and even not, not trying to put words there to meaning and an end, but yeah. He was creating within that creation. And the creation was this man, that amount of people on that beach with that many people watching online. And it was such an energy. It was, it was really cool.

And those are little moments of Lavonne and it's, it's a beautiful thing that was art created for sure. Um, that's a museum time, you know, museum piece. A little capsule.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Art is so, gosh. Yeah. This, I mean, performance art. And you think it's, you know, when standup comedians often when they talk about themselves, um, you know, they are performing artists.

Oh yeah. And they're often very self-aware and they'll even say, oh, I, I love being on stage. I love being the center of [00:53:00] attention. Please look at me. Please laugh at my silly dick jokes, or whatever it is. They're very aware that they love the performance aspect of it and Right. Being the center of attention and whether someone like Kelly Slater would, would be willing enough to admit it.

I, I think he gets off on being the center of attention and a performing artist. And I think a lot of athletes are that. However, if he's to surf by himself on some boat trip when everyone else is, uh, having coffee, he'd get maybe more out of that or just as much. And that, but that's more for himself. It's still, it's still art.

I mean, I think surfing is a, as many different forms of art.

Donald Brink: I mean, it's a yes and right, like you're still a human, like someone stroking your ego at that level, you know, of course you're gonna tap in. But I often think of it this way, like, if all the surfboards went away tomorrow, would I still show up and go for a body surf?

[00:54:00] And it's an absolutely yes. So like if you strip things down to like, are you really still interested in this? If all the competition goes away, would those surfers still surf? I'm pretty sure most of them would. Right. So therefore they are surfers. Are they winning surfers? Well, that comes and goes. But I like to think of it as simply as that like without a board, you still enjoying the waves or to see, or just a body of water, and therefore, like, it kind of takes the nuance of all those other things.

Of course, they matter and they feel good or whatever, but I do like the concept of surfing in the, in the simplest form, you know?

Mm. Well, I mean the, in the analogy there of body surfing, you are, you're still surfing and you're, you're connecting with something bigger than yourself.

Donald Brink: Exactly.

And something that has a long history behind it too.

Playing in the ocean.

Donald Brink: It's almost like listening to our [00:55:00] conversation now and trying to like, really. Not see if I'm saying the right thing with just clawing for words here, but it's almost like a surfing competition really should be showcasing that. It should be more of a waterman appreciation thing.

Like who's the best body surfer, aerialist, tube rider and point surfer. And I can tell you exactly who I think would win those, like the axle woodman. And you're like, oh, well this isn't what we're doing. This is what we're doing. It's, it's all fun, man. It's all good. But I, I do respect the creativity or the art, the art life approach or the surfing life.

Art life, surfing life. Transposes, the art, artistic creation or expression of someone being proficient from body, surf, swim to, to bride. I could name my two favorites and it's, uh. That is incredibly deep to me. Like, wow, the things they must have felt and seen and the way they carry [00:56:00] themselves through life with those memories and responsibilities is, that's pretty high level man.

That's, that's a life, that's an interesting world of life. I, I, in my opinion, I'm interesting.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. The connection to the ocean. And then from a performance perspective, you're connecting with the audience as well, you know? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the connection is a through line.

Donald Brink: Yeah. I think 'cause you're present, you know, like it's, you, you start landing up in, um, yogi terms yet pretty quick. It's, um, like, yeah, you, you're in it, you know, you're only feeling it. And I'm like, yeah, that's, that's cool. Yeah. Touche. Yeah, it's good. It's good stuff. I mean, but yeah. Back to the listeners. I see, I wanna keep thinking about these people.

I can't believe they're still listening. I think there's three of them. I dunno. But set out to, like, [00:57:00] I don't say, I don't wanna like premeditate surfing, but set yourself these little challenges and go play in the sea with this. I'm still learning mentality. It's, it's quite liberating. Um, I'm practicing surfing.

If you say it out loud, there's actually some science behind, I forget exactly how they quote it, but like, um, it interrupts the conversation in your head. So, Donald, I'm going to practice surfing right now. You address yourself in first person and it, it's quite disruptive, but do it with your surfing. Like start playing and messing with it that much, that responsibly.

Oh man. It just gets more interesting and it, and interesting is the word I choose because it doesn't get, um. Deeper. It's already deep. It's just looking into it for long enough that, uh, is the difference maybe.

Mm. I I like to say to myself, I, I'm going to play surfing. 'cause I like the music [00:58:00] analogy as you're going to play music, I think brings an element that

Donald Brink: conversation with that exact, uh, concept.

Yeah. The act of play in that we don't use it for surfing. I've had this with a friend just, just a month ago, like, yeah. 'cause he was writing, , Substack articles on play. The concept of play and how it's like, it, it really well written pieces. James, lovely young man, and he, um, I was like, man, it's interesting that we don't switch that out for surfing.

We don't come play surfing. We come and maybe practice surfing or just perform surfing or just do surfing but play. And we riffed on it. We were in the water, which it was not a great place to chat, but we took the conversation on land and. It was, I like that to play surfing.

. Ironically, the best surfers in the world, they learned from an early age, which is when it was pure play.

Kids just playing with the whitewater and then on body boards and then trying to surf Dads surfboard, they're playing [00:59:00] with it, or watching my kids learning surfing now, and they just, they don't wanna surf like anyone. They just love catching waves and just playing.

Donald Brink: Well, I, I agree. I think that's really interesting.

But I do think now in 40 years, we're gonna be able to have data and have to look back and see people that started surfing late and, and die surfing after staying true to it, maybe being exposed to it later. What that kind of relationship will be later. Like if you started playing, would it, uh, on an average forecast that it'll end this way, or if you.

Arrived to it late. I was only 15 years old when I started surfing, which is quite a late blooming. Right. Um, but then there are many examples of pros that started that late too. I believe Dan Reynolds started. Oh, really? Oh, I didn't know that. I think so. Wing Wingnut

started at 17, but he body surfed since he was five.

Donald Brink: Uh, maybe a better grounding to be honest. Um, but there are people that start later and [01:00:00] it, it, it is interesting. I, I do like that concept of play, but I don't think it's, and that's what's cool about surfing. It's not, there's not one way.

Mm.

Donald Brink: It's, it's your way 'cause it's your surfing, you know, like it's, it's your thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

Food for thought. Yeah. Well, actually in, in the episode with Aaron James, we, we talk about that a lot. About the play, play, play and, and stuff. Really interesting. He had some really interesting thoughts on that. That's episode 1, 1, 1 for listeners, but yeah. Um. I think the year your relationship with surfing does, not everyone, but a lot of us, it evolves and it becomes more playful than we get.

Well, that would make sense.

Donald Brink: Yeah, that would make sense. If you look at the rest of life, you know, you see some PE people retire out of what they formally did as a career and start picking up new interests or whatever it is, like life moves on and so do you. And therefore, as you change and your understandings and your, your vault of [01:01:00] memories come with you, you know, we are who we are and we've been fused and formed from the goods and bads that have happened to us.

So like, like those things, you are not in control of everything. And yet to be able to approach something and tap into it with this practiced years of appreciation, I highly really like that. Uh, because you don't know what's coming. And I just, I'm grateful for every day I do get to surf. Um, yeah, I, I really am.

I think that every day that goes by, the gratitude deepens. Like what this is. Um, yeah.

For me

Donald Brink: it's been LA lately just sitting on the beach and watching a few waves and it's like, okay, well maybe you don't have the luxury of time. Just no. Like if you have 45 minutes to surf, we'll sit on the beach for five of those and watch waves.

It's a good investment I fund and this is what I've found. So try it on for yourself and see if that fits. But I think it's coming out of [01:02:00] this large gratefulness, this generosity towards what it is and just even removing yourself from it and like letting those waves go and ridden. This is a beach and nobody was at the last two days me surfing all by myself and it was like, just sat and watched a few waves and it was meditative in a way.

Uh, meditative.

Yes.

Donald Brink: Oh, definitely. Yeah, that's been fun. Cost nothing and it's changed everything. Like that was just the last two days. I had no idea we were having this conversation. Like there it was. It was like, that is interesting. I'm just gonna watch. I'm gonna wait for the next set now. It was just so interesting.

It was like mindset and, and what it did was just, just blossom some. This gratefulness within me has, has really, it was quite surprising, I would say that. And I'm even more grateful for that.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. We used to do that a lot more when we were young. In between surfs, often just watching waves when we had time.

Donald Brink: It's almost like watching surf competitions [01:03:00] for me is like just watching somebody else ride away is, it's like, it's just interesting enough. I mean, you can sit and watch that all day if you had the luxury of it, but it's like eventually you just wanna go surfing and driving yourself nuts, but, mm. Yeah.

Or maybe get,

or you get to fill, Edwards is age and is maybe just dreaming about it's enough.

Donald Brink: Gosh, it was such a interesting conversation and, and yet he was so poignant and direct. I, I was really, I was like, oh, I'm really glad I asked him. And, um, yeah, he was, it didn't offend him at all. I took a chance, but yeah.

What a neat man. Yeah. Gosh, it was so cool talking about boats and holes and designs. It was really, really neat. Yeah.

Oh, cool.

Donald Brink: I can't believe he hasn't been interviewed. I mean, like,

oh, has he not,

Donald Brink: I show me an interview. I mean, like, he was notorious for like, not really speaking about surfing and his, like he's, he lives down the street.

I, I, now that I know what he looks like, I see him, but, um, yeah, I'm not sure if he's just not approachable, if [01:04:00] nobody's taken the time. I'm not, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that it would be a,

I'm pretty sure that either David or Scott have approached him. I'm sure I remember them talking about it.

Donald Brink: I wouldn't be surprised that he turned it down, but it would be a shame for him not to have his, uh, not everyone wants to do that, and that's fine.

It's his own thing.

Yeah, no,

Donald Brink: understandable. It's, you're, yeah, you're surfing your own thing too. It's like, it almost feels rude, imposing our thoughts on what this is to others. And that's why I'm like constantly trying to think about how people are listening to this, and it's like, just shut us up and think about it for yourself, like, and take ownership on those things and share them accordingly.

But that's kind of, there's a cringe factor, and yet there's also this gratefulness to be able to talk about these things, let alone to live the life looking at them for this long, like, that's the gift, really. So yeah, I, I am grateful for that.

Oh, and I think it's awesome. People want to hear different perspectives, especially from those of us who are in the industry, who have had the luxury to do it more than them, [01:05:00] and immerse ourselves a little bit more.

Any little nuggets we can give them might help them in their weekend warrior journey and to get more outta life and stick with it and yeah. Become better surfers and, uh, more focused or more present artists.

Donald Brink: I like that thing. The more present artists. 'cause I, I practice art too. Like I do a lot of art, but there's,

yeah.

I could

Donald Brink: walk in right now and show you the doodles with Drew yesterday. And I've been trying to show my kids, like I set on little assignments. I'm like, oh, you need to write a thank you card for so and so and or all you have to do is spend five minutes to do this if you wanna spend longer this, but you set these little parameters, but it's like, like, look at this art piece you did.

So you, you were commissioned to do something. So I have to do the same for myself. It's like, all right, sit down and draw this and it's helped me. So therefore it's helped my surfing's it's hand in

hand. [01:06:00] That's an interesting point and analogy because. If you sit down and you spend one minute creating a thank you note, uh, the sentiment would be appreciated, I'm sure.

But if you were to sit down and spend five minutes carefully with care and intention for that thank you note, maybe the words are the same, but the handwriting is more neat and it looks prettier, the other person will see that and they'll actually experience more gratefulness for the time that you took, especially if you drew a little drawing and or so, I think, and then that would be the difference between the thank you note and a really artful thank you note is the care taken in the presentation and the thought behind it.

Perhaps

Donald Brink: now we get into philosophical territory because then you could start pandering to [01:07:00] be wanted, like to accept it. So if you spend three hours making that note, oh, now, now there's incredible care. Oh, they must be really grateful. All, all very insecure. So you land up in a, so now you, you can see how that could be risky, right?

So let's go back as an artist, hey, could you sit down and make a thank you note? If you want to spend longer, that's fine. Now you're creating till you feel you've expressed yourself. That is the biggest gift and most accurate thanks you could give. And if the person didn't see the care that it, the same lettering could have taken somebody else longer.

That doesn't matter. The heart in which you presented it was now it's out of your hands. The way they received it, if you were pure and true, that's unde defendable. It's not undeniable. They might not like it and that's also [01:08:00] not the point. But the fact that you just poured yourself creatively out, you were the meter and measure of which brush strokes to do, which, lettering to choose, when to stop, if to stop.

That was the act of of thank you. And as an artist, that's the act of like, how much is this piece selling for? Like pricing can get kind of sticky, but if you're like, I, I really don't care what it costs. I'm just so grateful that I was the vessel through which this came. So this is what landed up being right.

That's

Donald Brink: where you want to be every time. And it's like, man, I wish I'd charged more for this. I love this piece. It's the best thing you could feel. But you've quoted and you stick by your word, right? But then you're like, oh, I got to be part of this. And then it's gone. And every time you think back on that piece, there's a energy that GOs up.

There was a responsibility with just showing up and doing the work and then moving [01:09:00] on, show up, ride those waves and come back the next day. Ride the next ones. Like there's, it's a similar, so they got maybe too much, but I do think you can start to want to be liked or accepted.

Yeah. Yeah. That is a good point.

Yeah. You wanna do it. You'd create the thank you note in this analogy. You wanna be proud of it and that's probably enough. If you obsess over it and you take five hours to do it and it's for someone you don't know that well, it would come across as creepy, where if you just scribbled it quickly, it would come across as shallow.

So there's that sort of middle ground if you like it. That's good art.

Donald Brink: Actually, this is a great segue to introduce Rick Rubin's work and I'm, I'm careful to recommend books, even like quoting the Bible was I. Off brand for me, meaning like things have to be taken within context. But my point is, I [01:10:00] read Rick Rubin's book, um, uh, it's called The Creative Act, A Way of Being is the subtitle, I believe.

, Yes. And that book was really, really helpful for me 'cause he was putting words to think things that I'd thought, but hadn't ever either heard, expressed, or didn't know to be true for someone else. 'cause they were kind of within your own head. But that's his whole thing, man. Like, read the book really.

If this, if this sounds interesting to you, I'd highly recommend it. But he was saying like, you, like ought to be the what to be liked or enjoyed. Is commerce, like art that you like is art. If other people don't, that's not, that's, that's commercial at that point. So in the Thank you, back to the thank you note.

Make the thank you note and oops, send it when you like it once you're done. So that's, as an artist, you need to learn to stop when you like it. 'cause you can overcook a painting too, or under deliver and be lazy. So [01:11:00] there's that realm. And I think Rick put the best words to that, saying like, gee, if you do things so that people like you or it, that's, that's not the point here.

It's, if you like it, that's what you, that's why you made it. And that goes to like, there's, that's a nice little tie into our surf talk too. It's like, did you like that wave? Great. Could you have done better? That's on your, like, could you explain where you feel you could work on your technique or where you a little more could be more efficient in that ride?

Great. If you can't, well cool. As long as you weren in the way in the field, it's like you, you, you become the um, meter and measure of what's going on within you. Around you and through you. Definitely through you.

Yes. That is a great point. Yeah. Yeah. No, I really like [01:12:00] that. , If you're happy with the way that you surf, you've won Hundred

Donald Brink: percent.

I mean, I, I think you could argue oh well, that eventually you'll get bored. And that's why I come back to, well, if you're fascinated with surfing, you'll consistently be interested. I get, um, nervous with somebody being passionate about surfing, say, 'cause yeah, you'll probably, you, I wrong move under other things, but there's people I've met.

Um, I think you're one of them. And it's not a judgment of who's in or who's out, but there are people who are endlessly interested with what surfing is and the depths within it. And that's great. And if you. That's fine too.

Mm. Yeah. I don't think that ne like myself, I'm content with the way I surf at the moment.

However, I still [01:13:00] want to get better in, in terms of like, oh, the waves are really small today. I'm content with my, the way I surf. But it's gonna be challenging of me to surf this board in those waves. So in some ways I have to get better kind of thing. There's still challenge. There's still challenge there.

I'm not content to the point where it's boring,

Donald Brink: but I'm interesting.

But I'm, but I don't care what other people think. I don't care whether I do a, a cutback or not, or, whereas in the past I was, you know, a bit more judgmental of myself, I think. But that doesn't stop challenge and progression and in, in other ways.

Donald Brink: , try and make surfing harder for yourself as a challenge, like riding the skinny boards or whatever it is, and just see if it, if it becomes more interesting or you learn something about yourself. That's maybe the biggest point I'm not trying to make, but have found to be true lately. And it's really, it brought out energies that I [01:14:00] didn't even know were within me.

And frustrations too, that I didn't know how to deal with and parts of self-worth that I didn't know were tied up within who I thought I was as a surfer. And I. I'm not comfortable with how well I'm surfing right now, and I'm surfing the best I've ever surfed in my life, and I'm guarantee convinced about that.

So that's kind of cool. So there's this like frustration with my progression, and yet I'm progressed to a point that I'm, I'm surfing more accurately, consistently than I ever have. This is why I know it's better, but yet there's, I'm still like, it's an end. I don't think I'll ever arrive. There's no end point in this, which is okay.

It's not like you, like when you said you've won, I think that's really true for a lot of people. But for the character, keep moving is also really, really beautiful too. 'cause then one day you're done and then all of this was, it was

great. Oh yeah. That, that will change when, when my kids get a bit older [01:15:00] and they can start surfing better and more challenging waves, that's gonna change.

I'll be like, oh man, I need to, I need to up my skills. I need to up my fitness to. To keep up with them and, and to enjoy the style of waves that they can surf. And I wanna surf with them. So, but at the moment it's just the types of waves that I get access to and the times that I get to go surfing. I'm just, uh, yeah, that's, but they, like I said, it's not to say there isn't challenges 'cause there's always, there's always, there's always a challenge there.

Donald Brink: I like, , Tom Carroll is always talking about riding tiny waves in, , Sydney training for big sessions. And I always just cherished him. I've heard him say it on a few occasions, but yeah, like it go and surf small, windy, I think North Sydney or something, and I'm, yeah. And you're like, yeah, he was challenging himself, putting the training together Next stop.

Why Mayo? Wherever it was. It's pretty funny. I love it. And you're like, yeah, there's endless reps to [01:16:00] be enjoyed and practiced and things from which to glean.

. Yeah. Well, it's 'cause the way that you get power out of a small wave is by having a eye for details.

Donald Brink: And that's the thing is that a lot of those waves will be unridden.

So there's endless eye for practice.

Yep.

Donald Brink: And

enjoyment. And the way that you, the way that you make it down a massive wave that's windy, you have to have a eye for the details. You have to pick that line of smoothness that'll allow your rail to cut through the madness of that massive wave. So I remember him talking about that.

That's the, the through line between small and big waves. Is that eye for detail. Where's that, where's that rail going? I like to use the analogy of the mountain biker flying down a hill. If the track's two meters wide, you can get down the hill in a number of ways. But the fastest way down is you wanna know exactly where the center of your tire is going at every moment.

So you focus in on that, on those, those little details, a little bumps and grooves and the in [01:17:00] within the track. And same is true for surfing too. If you can look at the details of where that rail is gonna go , that's another art in itself. Oh, for sure.

Donald Brink: Alright, I'm gonna go

Yes. No, thank you Donald.

I appreciate that. I'll let the folks know your website and Instagram handle.

Donald Brink: Oh, um, I'm trying to think what I just, uh, you don't have to go online just Yeah,

I'll have links. I have links. Links are in the show notes.

Donald Brink: Alright. Yeah. And I ring surf. Yeah, I think everything is on, on brinker

brinksurf.com. I'll have links in the show notes and I'll do an intro anyway, so

Donald Brink: it's, yeah, it is difficult.

It's like a, a hand make all board start to finish and I love doing it. I really do. But like it's, I didn't make that many surfboards, so it's like. It's, yeah, it's all custom and yeah, people get in touch with me and we have these long conversations and make the right board for the right [01:18:00] person is the goal.

It really is. But yeah, more than anything, if, if, if this can just be a, a way to give back to surfing and I really appreciate the work that you've done and the tireless hours and episodes you put out and the consistency in that within your own life that's changed so much. Um, it, it's an honor to be in conversation with you about these things and to share to other people like, so it's not, it's not on deaf ears.

This, and thank you for calling and having these chats over these years, Michael.

Yeah, no, it's been

Donald Brink: great. We should do it again for sure. Yeah, I look forward to it. Alright man. Good to chat. Sweet.

I'll

Donald Brink: let you go

see.

Is your surfboard truly helping you become a better surfer—or just keeping you comfortable?

In this episode, we explore a question that many surfers overlook: are you riding the board that suits your potential or simply what the surf industry has marketed to you? Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned surfer, learning how equipment shapes performance and self-discovery in the water can revolutionize your approach to surfing.

• Discover why changing boards regularly—even riding the "wrong" board—can massively accelerate your progression.

• Learn from Donald Brink’s radical experimentation with ultra-narrow surfboards and how it unveiled new layers of wave reading and board control.

• Understand the deep connection between board design, wave selection, and self-expression that transforms surfing from sport to personal art form.

Tune into this eye-opening conversation to challenge what you think you know about surfboards—and uncover the path to becoming the surfer you were meant to be.

http://www.brinksurf.com
https://www.instagram.com/donaldbrink/?hl=en
www.surfmastery.com

Key Points

• The importance of the surfing style over the type of surfboard was emphasized, highlighting the value of constantly changing boards to improve one's surfing skills.

• Donald Brink discussed the benefits of challenging oneself with difficult surfboards to discover deeper aspects of one's surfing and personal growth.

• The conversation touched on the idea that societal and industry influences might shape people's preferences in surfboards more than personal preference.

• Donald Brink shared his experience with creating and riding extremely narrow surfboards, which he found to be a profound and enlightening exercise in understanding his own surfing and design principles.

• The dimensions and unique features of Donald Brink's narrow surfboards were discussed, including the challenges and learnings from riding them.

• Donald Brink mentioned that Dane, a fellow surfer, showed interest in and eventually rode one of his narrow surfboards, taking it on a memorable trip to Iceland.

• The discussion explored the combination of narrowness with modern materials and design elements in surfboards, a concept Donald Brink is pioneering.

• The potential of narrow surfboards in wave pools was considered, with the suggestion that they could offer unique and advantageous surfing experiences. 

Outline

Surfing Philosophy and Personal Growth

• Donald Brink emphasizes that the way one surfs is more important than the type of surfboard used.

• Donald discusses the value of constantly changing surfboards to challenge oneself and improve surfing skills.

• Donald shares personal experiences of riding very narrow and difficult-to-ride surfboards to discover more about oneself and improve surfing technique.

Surfboard Design and Preferences

• Donald and Michael discuss the influence of the surf industry on surfboard preferences, comparing it to the standardization of the Fender Stratocaster in the music industry.

• They debate whether surfboard preferences are truly personal or influenced by societal and industry standards.

• Donald mentions that professionals often use different types of surfboards outside of competition, indicating a divergence from industry-driven preferences.

Challenges and Learning Through Surfing

• Donald explains the benefits of riding difficult surfboards, even in challenging conditions, to gain deeper insights into one's surfing abilities and improve overall technique.

• He discusses the importance of recognizing one's limitations and frustrations as a means to identify areas for improvement.

• Donald shares his experience of building and riding extremely narrow surfboards, which he found to be a humbling and enlightening exercise.

Surfboard Specifications and Design

• Donald details the specifications of the narrow surfboards he has designed, including dimensions and unique design elements.

• He discusses the challenges and learnings from riding these boards, including the need for more rocker due to their narrowness.

• Donald mentions the interest of other surfers, like Dane, in trying these unique boards and the feedback received.

Surfing as Art or Sport

• The conversation touches on the philosophical question of whether surfing is an art, a sport, or both, with a promise to delve deeper into this topic in a future episode.

Transcription:

Donald Brink
Really, it's the way you surf is more important than what you ride. And so if you constantly change out your craft and realize that the common element or the common variable is your surfing, which hopefully is developing day by day with intrigue and aspiration, your surfing, you start to realize... I made these very narrow boards that were incredibly difficult to ride, and I rode them in—I don't like to call waves bad—but in very challenging conditions. And I fell in love with them. And the puzzle was complex, and yet it showed me so many...

Michael Frampton
Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast. That was two quotes from part one of a long conversation I had with Donald Brink. Part two will be published next week. This will be Donald's third appearance on the podcast, first back in episode 42 and episode 76. So if you enjoy this and you want to go back, those are the numbers. I reached out to Donald to discuss, is surfing an art or a sport? And that will be in part two. It's an hour-long deep dive into that. But the first sort of 25 minutes of that conversation was a good catch-up and a dive into what Donald has been up to since we last spoke. And of course, his deep and philosophical thoughts about surfing and surfboard design. And as with every conversation with Donald, there's so many gold nuggets in here. Donald is a great thinker and an incredible surfboard shaper and designer. You can check out more from Donald at brinksurf.com—it's b-r-i-n-k surf.com—and of course at Donald Brink on Instagram. Did you hear the one with Aaron James?

Donald Brink
Another—okay—must have been.

Michael Frampton
Aaron James, episode 111 I think. The audio quality wasn't great from his end, but it's worth a listen because you'd love it. He's a philosopher and we just talked at the, you know, all about philosophy.

Donald Brink
You've interviewed him before? No? Okay.

Michael Frampton
Right?

Donald Brink
I remember there was somebody on philosophy. I'll look forward to that. The last one that comes to mind that I'm just remembering, maybe I'm missing one or two, but it was you discussing the timing of entering waves, jumping onto the board rather than paddling into it, and you realize they can push and pull that bandwidth of when you're actually taking off on the wave. I thought that was—I'd never heard it. It was just a passing comment to you, but I gleaned from that. I was like, it's really interesting to do that, to stand in the shallows and not paddle for waves as part of wave training.

Michael Frampton
For beginners, yeah. Whenever I take a beginner out, I say, what are you paddling for? You're standing in waist-deep water. Just jump because the wave's going so slow. If you wait till the wave hits the back of your board and you just jump forward a little bit, you're trimming and then you can—you don't have to paddle. That's how my kids play and naturally catch waves just by playing. And it takes the pressure off having to paddle. Because everyone, you know, that's the first thing that beginners complain: "My arms are so tired." And it's, well, save your arms for the pop-up.

Donald Brink
Right. Yeah. I've been spending a little bit of time and sat some lectures with Rob Case, the surf paddling instructor. And I'm sure you guys all know his work. And if you haven't looked at it, I would encourage one to explore that because most of surfing really is paddling. Yeah. And he's the specialist in the paddling field. And the short story is, it was just like being able to ask him questions. And what they tap into is intuition of what they've learned, both in formal study and in the hypothesis of studying what's actually going on when we are paddling or taking off on a wave in particular. And surfboards are very inefficient at moving across or through—generally rather—in water. And yeah, just like the studies just show how radical it is going from submerged to now planing and therefore now standing and then surfing. We're swimming at best for most of the time.

Michael Frampton
I know. Yeah, I've had Rob on the show a few times and I've done his course. It was amazing. But that's why I surf a boat nowadays. It's easier.

Donald Brink
Love you. Yeah, it's... There's nothing wrong with that, and I still think surfing comes down to preference. And it's a word someone used in the water one day. You know, like some people ask you stuff in the water. It happens to me now and again. I try and be, like, not rude, but really hyper-focused. And somebody said, "What are you riding today?" And it was actually a very traditional-looking board, which they were surprised at. Because I've been known to ride—I'm always testing and trying new things, right? And I was like, yeah, it's just really good to palate cleanse and ride a standard shortboard from time to time. And I do it because it keeps my surfing honest and my design mind honest to be like, well, this is supposed to work. Most people prefer this and I know you can get it. And it's—sometimes I didn't make that board. So there's zero judgment on what I could or should have done. And they were like, yep, that's really good. It's nice that you're doing that. I think it's a good responsibility. At the end of the day, it's just down to preference. Everyone knows what they prefer in a board. They usually don't know what they need. And it hit me, like, really hard—that statement. I was like, this really is down to preference. Like there's no... There's things I know that I like in a board and you don't really want to impose that onto other people as a suggestion, even at times.

Michael Frampton
But do you think that is really people's preference? I don't. Because I think we chatted last time. It's like the Fender Strat is like people's preference in guitar. Well, that's only because it happens to be first. It was like the first guitar that was really well made and all the studio musicians used it. And then it became a standard. Whereas with surfboards, I think it's just—that's just what the surf industry pushed on people. And that's what the pros were riding. I don't know if it's a preference because of society or whether it's an actual literal preference. And I saw Steph Gilmore in the water surfing good waves. She wasn't on a performance shortboard. She was on a fish. And then when you see pros outside of competition, they're not usually on performance shortboards.

Donald Brink
This is a great point, and I think you're right. And I think that preference could be perceived as being accepted. So this person's comment—and I know this guy fairly well—he doesn't want to be seen on anything else. So he would prefer to endear a Stratocaster on stage in this example, right? And yet a hollow-bodied Telecaster might be better for what they're playing. And that's a great point because, yeah, that's what we've been marketed to and that's what the biggest companies are consistently marketing or manufacturing, right? It's still a valid point though because what he prefers is important to him. And that's where your surfing is your own. And that's both the biggest blessing and comes with a huge responsibility if you want to cultivate it. And once you realize it's up to you, as long as you're not in anyone's way, you can have a lot of fun in the sea. That's the golden rule and it's taken years to really get as succinct as that—like, be in the right part of the wave doing the right thing and not being in anyone's way—and you are welcome. Fish.

Michael Frampton
Amphibian, say.

Donald Brink
Should I?

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I agree with all of that. I do think it's a little bit short-sighted when you see people, if their preference comes from the surf industry or whatever. They just maybe haven't thought it through. Hey look, I'll put my hand up. When it's six foot and barreling, yeah, I want to be on a performance shortboard. The rocker fits the wave. I'm more likely to come out of a barrel, of course. But how often is the surf like that, really?

Donald Brink
Right.

Michael Frampton
So it's—

Donald Brink
Okay, let's expand this conversation then to... Is it worth trying to ride something that's really difficult to ride? Because I see most people only riding things that are easier to ride. Ciao. I challenge myself to ride very difficult surfboards sometimes. And I don't have as good a session. But because my surfing is my own and what I'm getting out of it is what I'm willing to get out of it. And sometimes you go really deep in trying to find... Parts of yourself, really. Or parts of the wave that then bring out these joys that you've been searching for. So when the waves are good, it's like, are you willing to waste good waves trying to ride something different? And it could be to prove a point. Well, that's now a little immature, but if it's at the expense of searching the depths of oneself within surfing, I find that very interesting and not often seen, shown, or even talked about. And I do think it's a developing category of what surfing is to somebody. Because it's... it's yours to yourself. Okay.

Michael Frampton
Yes, you're right. I mean, if you want to take even a small-wave performance shortboard out when the waves aren't great—and maybe you'd have more fun and catch more waves on a hybrid or a fish—you want to go out there and challenge yourself and keep the board on rail and... yeah. I mean, that kind of board, almost if you're planing and going straight, it's going to slow down and you're going to bog. But if you're staying close to the whitewater and surfing rail to rail, you're going to have... find that feeling. There is a thing—there's a detail that you've got to realize, listeners—is you might go down to Lower Trestles, let's say, for example, and let's say it's shoulder-high Lower Trestles. You're going to—it might look like a slow, soft wave. But the way that the water is drawing off the bottom, the way the current and the bathymetry, the way that the swell angles in towards you a little bit actually makes the wave a lot more rippable than it looks. But if you were to go down to San O or Doheny and the waves are bigger, that might look more powerful from the beach, but you're going to—and you take the same board out—you're going to find it a lot harder to surf a bigger wave at a softer break than you would a smaller wave at a more rippable break. So learning to look at those details of the refraction of the swell, the way that water's drawing off the bottom, will help you choose what sort of surfboard to take out as well. So there's a fine line between... what's your skill level, what's the wave like, what are your intentions to the way to surf. But I agree with you. If you want to challenge yourself and become a better surfer, yeah. A board with a bit more rocker is going to force you to—it only really works if it's transitioning from rail to rail.

Donald Brink
Well, that's one example, but extend it even further. Like, what if you rode a really flat-rockered board that's too small for you or a really big board? If you constantly just change the variable of the board—because everyone, it's kind of intuitive really, you'd think I'd be so into the board, and yet it's like, I get to make these things all day and I love it—but really, it's the way you surf is more important than what you ride. And so if you constantly change out your craft and realize that the common element or the common variable is your surfing, which hopefully is developing day by day with intrigue and aspiration—your surfing—you start to realize which parts you need to work on, which parts you're really good at. And that's what—as succinct as I can be—it's are you in the right part of the wave, doing the right thing and not being in somebody's way. And switching up boards, no matter what the condition, it shows itself best when you're riding the wrong board on the wrong day. Because you start to realize, I should have been over there on that wave. And until you're frustrated by that, you won't know that that's where you need and want to be and continue to strive to be there, right? So the wrong lines because your board wouldn't let you is really helpful too. So you're wasting waves to learn. I don't know any better. It's a long exercise, but that's what life is. And to share within life is part of that.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, no, I agree with that as well. I mean, when I first bought a longboard, my shortboarding improved tenfold just because I had to learn how to surf a much bigger board than I was used to. Look at the wave differently and predict it more. And then you jump back on a shortboard, you know, wow. Thank you. So yeah. Well, I mean, how far can you push that? How ridiculous of a surfboard can you ride? And, you know, is there a surfboard that would improve your surfing more than a different surfboard?

Donald Brink
100%. I set out on that question. I try and be really honest about what works and what doesn't work. And there's a lot of boards I've built that do not work. And I had to—you have to learn that, right? And within that endless mystery of what works and what doesn't and how hydrodynamics come into play, I set out on a goal to see how much feedback I could get out of a board that I built that was essentially very difficult to ride, and yet the sensory download from a wave ride, if I could pull it off, would be the highest. And I landed up on—it would be the narrowest board possible. Because I think a lot of boards can be most easily, comfortably designed as to going wide, right? So I set out to do the exact opposite and see how far I could push it. And it was one of the most humbling and now enlightening exercises I've ever set out on. And yeah, it has changed my life because of these effects. And now even the designs within all the other boards... but what it did was let me understand what surfing is to me, and which parts I enjoy. And the best parts were—it was nothing I was trying to impose or imply on anybody else, except I knew the learnings would live on into the rest of my work or work I get to do for somebody else. So to wrap this whole thing up, it would be—I made these very narrow boards that were incredibly difficult to ride and I rode—I don't like to call waves bad—but in very challenging conditions. And I fell in love with them. And the puzzle was complex, and yet it showed me so many inherent flaws that were very easily fixable, but you couldn't really feel them because they were muted or disguised in the designs of comfortable boards. And what it did was—I could walk away from that in my surfing shoes definitely improved. And now you can just jump on them—any board around the world—and have fun, which to me really is the goal. Can you travel without boards and just ride one you find for a hundred bucks? And now you don't have a bag for you and you have the most fun. Do you know what I mean? Like, you want to have the ability to be able to ride anything, anywhere in the sea, and be able to be safe and respectable and just have fun with that relationship with you and the ocean. And that, to me, has always been an "any board" policy. So that's what happened to me and gosh, it was rewarding. I haven't shared or shown any of them yet because what happened was—it was so profound that I was like, man... So I started collecting them. I think I'm on board 11 right now. And I will present them as a show in a series. I'd love to do an art show, actually, because together they will make sense because you can see the lineage. Yeah, things have just kept popping up and there's attention to other projects right now, but it doesn't matter. It's forever green. So... within the next year, I'm sure.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. How narrow are we talking?

Donald Brink
Well, the first board I did was 12 and 3/8.

Michael Frampton
Your foot? 11?

Donald Brink
Specifically. And so you ended up having to ride both toes forward so that you could get a cleaner trim. There was just—there was so much learning on it. And the entire board was made just off-cycle, upcycled offcut pieces. It was such a fun thing. But the last iteration has been—and the first asymmetrical one—they've all been symmetrical to stay pure to not have too many variables within the design elements. It's like, okay, this is an asymmetry doing its thing. It's just design problems. The last one is 6'5.5" by 14 7/8" by 2 3/8"—two and a half-ish. And that board's a brute. See, fantastic. I did take it to a wave this season, got a few waves, got absolutely blasted on a few, but it was like I had to feel it in juice with warm water if I really believed in it, you know? Definitely turned some heads, but yeah, that was not the point. The point is trying to learn who you are and how design works. And it was so—you get so used to it and so comfortable on those boards that other boards actually feel so clunky and tubby and slow. It's... it's just interesting is all it is.

Michael Frampton
So that board—the last iteration of it—does it have more of a traditional performance rocker as well?

Donald Brink
Well, all the rules and rules—preconceived numbers—are out the window. So the rocker numbers would be—they're ill-quoted because the board's so narrow and so straight for so long. Thank you... The end points, like, you actually have to put so much more rocker in the board because it's not in the outline. But when you come off the bottom, the board gets onto rail so much sooner, 'cause you don't have a big catamaran, so to speak, that you can fit more rocker in. So you end up surfing way more curve. It's like those old '90s shortboards—were super rocked up. But then it's like, they were narrower. You see the relationship between rail line, rocker, volume, plan shape, and overall wetted surface. It's just fun. Wow.

Michael Frampton
Have Dane or Pat been interested in surfing this type of board?

Donald Brink
Yeah, Dane... Dane ran into me at the beach one day and he's always an—I mean, we are such good friends now. It's such a joy to work alongside him and just talk surfing and share boards sometimes. But he looked in the back of the van and he was like, "What's that?" And he was so... it was version two he saw. Because like I said, I haven't shown or shared any of these. It's been a self-guarded exploration. It was a cold day. We were down at Santa, and he just threw on a towel, pulled on a pair of trunks, and just jumped in. He just paddled it straight out and caught three waves, which, to be honest, he didn't surf very well. And the feedback loop of where to stand is learning. And once you know where to stand, then you start putting your surfing together. But he came in and he's like, "Just build me one." And I did build him one of those. So his was number three of those in the series. And yeah, he ended up taking it on a trip and—yeah, it's kind of a memorable story—but pushed it in some very big, incredible waves in Iceland of all places. The only board he took as well. It's such an honor. But yeah, there's some reward to be had. And yet it's still in its infant stages.

Michael Frampton
Yeah. Yeah, I'm keen to... I'm sure you'll release some photos and footage or something along this. If you can do an art show, I mean.

Donald Brink
It just doesn't make sense out of context. Even this conversation is all silly. I guess if you're listening to this and you're like, what the hell is this guy on about? My point is, change up your boards and challenge yourself. You'll find out what your surfing is. And you can transpose what you need to work on into any board, and you'll learn quicker and go further faster. I do like narrow boards. And this project will see the light of day in context of its growth. It makes more sense than just talking about a narrow board now. But it's...

Michael Frampton
An extreme that I haven't seen been explored. I'm exploring extremes. I love my 11-foot glider. That's extremely long, extremely heavy, extremely thick, extremely straight rails. Right. And then you've got it—the people, we've gone as wide as we can, the Potato from Firewire. It doesn't get any more wide and piggy than that. We've gone as short as we can...

Donald Brink
Right.

Michael Frampton
We've gone thin. But no one's—this is pioneering stuff, maybe.

Donald Brink
I actually—it's funny—I started off with trying to be as high as I can arrive for the sensation, like I said. And then what's funny is you actually land up in these thought trails. And before long you'll land up and you start looking at what was essentially the start of it all—was the alaia—because the trees were only that wide. And so when you look at those Hawaiian olas—and I just did make a hollow wooden version just to honor the thoughts of the original ola—I actually haven't ridden that board yet. But within context of the show and the movement of design, I was like, wow. I mean, I think they were designing within parameters of what materials they had. Skinny trees, not many of them. And yet the designs were hydrodynamically sound for the time and therefore would hold up today because water doesn't change. But yeah, it's kind of all been done before, but no... I think you just don't stop exploring the parts that are difficult. And they fascinate me—not to be right—but you find yourself and who you are within those things, you know.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, but the narrowness hasn't been combined with modern materials, volume, buoyancy, concave, rocker, which is obviously what you're doing.

Donald Brink
Yeah, for sure. It is fun. And you see parts of the modern shortboard—you pick it up and it starts after a few minutes of just holding it and being around them. They stop looking odd and you kind of—they get comfortable within your mind very quickly. Maybe I'm just around them so much, but I've seen people react that way and turn the reaction into a response. And it's... times one's in this little—your reaction. Yeah, it's funny.

Michael Frampton
Yeah, I can imagine it's... and it's an extremely responsive, touchy board when you first get it going.

Donald Brink
My two cents to date on why I don't ride them all the time is—they get really boring unless the waves are past, like... they don't even have to be big. They can be small and somewhat powerful as fun. But once it gets past shoulder-high, you can... you can get out of second and third and into fourth and even sometimes fifth gear. And it's incredible. You get lost in time and space. But anything smaller than that, you just can't get out of second gear. You know how much the board has to give. And you just start frustrating yourself. And these weren't like world-class good waves, right? In terms of a general comment, they were more just—there was enough room on which to move. And unpowerful waves that nobody wanted on those days were all kinds of fun at speeds that were unfathomable on any other board. So there is room for it, I think. Yeah, not for many. Laughs Yeah. Yeah, it's fun.

Michael Frampton
Well, when you're surfing from rail to rail...

Donald Brink
Yeah, if you can isolate a rail and have room enough to stay on it for as long as you possibly want to or can...

Michael Frampton
The width of the surfboard is irrelevant anyway. Isn't that really?

Donald Brink
That's where I think the gearing comes in. It's like, man, you just start going so fast. You're drawing these long turns over sections and without losing speed because your wetted surface is so much smaller. So if you're having to keep weaving and you're doing it so quickly that—I wouldn't say it's boring, it's just less efficient than you know what it feels like. As soon as you get on the rail, you can just stay on there. So if you've got room to be able to do that, you start doing it. That's all you want to do. And because you can on the narrow board, it's like, man, well, right. That's what I'm going to do. Yeah, I'll tell him.

Michael Frampton
I imagine it going well in a wave pool, perhaps.

Donald Brink
I haven't been to a pool since I started making these. I've thought the same thing over and over. Same thing. It's not a huge wave, but it's a focused curl. Yeah, I wouldn't see why it wouldn't go well. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
When it's very... predictable and consistent.

Donald Brink
Right. I think you'd want a bigger pool, to be honest. I mean... I wonder if you'd get better lines. I think you'd draw better. And you're not taking off into the tube, which is nice. You're rolling in. So that would be really... of value there. That'd be advantageous. Yeah.

Michael Frampton
Well, you mentioned them being art. Which segues us into what I wanted to talk about, which was—is surfing an art or a sport, or both? Thank you so much for tuning in. Make sure you subscribe and listen to next week's episode, part two with Donald Brink: "Is Surfing an Art or a Sport—or Both?" We heard a little bit about that in last week's episode with Tony Roberts. He's on the sports side. For more surfing podcast episodes, there is a huge back catalogue. And of course, if you want more tips, some free PDFs and advice, etc., go tosurfmastery.com. Until next week, keep surfing.

121 Exploring Surfboards as Tools for Self-Discovery with Donald Brink (part 1)

For the passionate surfer—whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer—this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more—so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced.