Podcasts By Dr. Kirk Adams

In this engaging episode, Dr. Kirk Adams sits down with Seattle-based runner and social-impact professional Ixchel Lemus Bromley. The conversation traces her journey from Costa Rica to Pennsylvania and on to the Pacific Northwest, culminating in a college-age diagnosis of retinitis pigmentosa that reshaped her sense of identity and mobility. Bromley explains how guided running restored the "true freedom" she once felt on solo runs, using hand- or waist-tethers and vivid verbal cues to replace anxiety with trust and exhilaration. Determined to share that liberation with others, she founded Free 2 Fly, a Sunday-morning adaptive running club now evolving into a nonprofit that pairs blind and low-vision athletes with sighted guides and is gearing up for its first 5 K event.

Beyond the track, Bromley leads the social-responsibility team at Brooks Running, where she safeguards worker rights across the brand's global supply chain—an extension of her passion for equitable access and inclusion. She and Adams trade stories of childhood athletics, the mechanics of safe pacing, and the broader message that alternative techniques can unlock performance and belonging for people with vision loss. The episode closes with Adams pledging his support and inviting listeners to volunteer as guides or runners, underscoring their shared conviction that partnership is the engine of empowerment. TRANSCRIPT:

Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to Podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am Doctor Kirk Adams, speaking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And I have a fellow Seattle person with me today, Ixchel Lemus Bromley and Ixchel, if you want to say hi.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. Hi, this is Ixchel. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Great. Awesome. So I'll just speak a little bit about myself for those who are listening, who might not know me. And then. Then I'd really like to hand hand you the, the talking stick Ixchel, and have you tell us about yourself. But I again, I'm Doctor Kirk Adams. I'm a totally blind person. I have been since age five, when my retinas both detached. So Ixchel and and I have had quite different journeys in visual impairment and blindness. I became totally blind very quickly. And I went to a school for blind kids for second and third grade, and there was no question that I needed to learn blindness skills. So I was taught braille as a six year old and how to travel confidently and gracefully with a long white cane, and then how to type on a typewriter so I could start into public school when I was ready. And that was fourth grade. And then I went all the way through, lived in small rural towns in Oregon and Washington. I was always the only blind student in all of my schools from fourth grade through my my doctoral program. But I entered the nonprofit sector about ten years after college, after spending ten years in banking and finance, entered the sector through becoming a professional fundraising person, was hired by the lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle to start their foundation and their fundraising program.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And thanks to their investments in me and my development, my professional development, I was privileged to become the president and CEO at the Lighthouse here in Seattle, which is a social enterprise employing blind and deaf blind people in a variety of businesses, most notably aerospace manufacturing, making parts for all the Boeing aircraft. I was recruited to join the board of the American Foundation for the blind. Afp. Which is Helen Keller's organization and one I had been familiar with since being a first grader at a school for the blind. As we had materials in the classroom developed by American Foundation for the blind, and I was given the opportunity and the privilege to become the president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind. In 2016 moved from Seattle to New York City and then to the Washington, D.C. area and then back home during the pandemic and after managing AFB remotely for a time, I decided it was time for a change, and I stepped away from that great organization and wonderful role and started a consulting practice.

Dr. Kirk Adams: I call it Innovative Impact, LLC. I'm just three, three years in, and I mostly work with companies to help them accelerate inclusion of people who are blind in their workforce and getting a lot of traction in the cybersecurity industry, which is exciting and new. I am not a cybersecurity expert, but I am a blindness employment expert. So I've partnered with a cybersecurity company called Nova Coast, and we've developed the Apex program, which you can find at the Apex Apex program. And it's a virtual training and certification program to launch blind people into cybersecurity careers. And I'm very proud of it. So I, I, I mentioned it a lot. So yeah, with that, I'm let's see, married to my college sweetheart. We'll, we'll hit the 40 year anniversary mark next month. We have two grown children, one of whom is in Seattle, our son, who has blessed us with two amazing grandchildren. And our daughter lives in Los Angeles, and she'll be coming up Friday for her annual summer visit. So that's a that's a little about me. And now for the star of the show. You shall welcome. And we'd love to hear about your journey. As a blind person.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Thank you so much. We're we're where you're currently at and what you're working on. You're doing some amazing things in the community.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Thank you. Yeah. It's it's awesome to be talking with you today. And I'm always. Yeah, so, so amazed by all that you've done. So I feel very lucky to be here talking to you today. And thank you for everything that you've done for the community. It's it's truly amazing and so impactful. Thank you. Yeah. So I'm Estelle. I was born in San Jose, Costa Rica. I lived there for six years. My my dad is Guatemalan and my mom is American. So was born there. I lived there for six years and then moved to the United States when I was six. Grew up in the Pennsylvania area outside of Philadelphia. And when I was very little, there was some Someone noticed noticed that I had some visual issues. And, you know, I quickly went to the eye doctor when I was around 3 or 4 years old to understand what was going on. I got a pair of glasses. I remember my first pair were pink and Barbie themed, and I loved them. And I remember just being able to see through them and it was really amazing the, the sight that I had at the time and, and that transition I went through from like, really not being able to see much to having some clarity there. Then when I was six and I lived in Pennsylvania, Sylvania. I went to my annual eye doctor appointment, and my eye doctor at the time noticed that my pupils reacted a little strangely and abnormally to light.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: And he he said that I was likely night blind. But that it wouldn't really be an issue unless I wanted to enlist. Those were the words that he told me. And so my mom and I were like, okay, well, that's what we were told. So let's let's just move on. And I was sick. So no plans to enlist at that time. And we moved on with it. But later on in my life when I was in middle school and then early high school, a lot of my hobbies were around dance and theater. And with dance and theater, you're backstage a lot, and the lighting is very, very dim. Or there's no light to help with that. And I noticed my my night vision was really not great. And I would tell everybody, you know, I'm night blind. That's what I've been told. I need a little bit more support at backstage. At that time. Then the night vision was a struggle, but it wasn't fully gone. So it just seemed like I had a little bit a harder time than most people, but I could still see a little bit and so was able to navigate a bit myself. As time went on, I got my driver's license and then I would drive even at night. Wow. Yep.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So. So in my experience something really significant in my life is I, I lived in these rural towns, and we lived out of town. And when I, when, when I turned 16, we lived in Silverton, Oregon. We lived out on Silver Silver Creek Falls Road, a couple of miles out of town. And when kids turned 16 they all got driver's licenses and they all got some sort of part time job or paid something. Yeah. And so that was super isolating for me and super psycho socially really, really hard. So I was pretty I was pretty sad about that. And, you know, the social scene shifted to car culture, and everyone drove everywhere and met, you know, by driving and so that that that was a tough time. So I am glad for you that you had the cool experience of driving.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I can't I can't imagine that time, you know, in in your shoes. I think for me, what was interesting was I got my license, I was told I could drive, and I started driving at night and realized I shouldn't be driving. But it was this hard realization. And as a 16 year old, to make that decision when you know there's no one telling you you can't. All your friends are doing it and you know. Yeah. You become so independent and you want to join your friends. You want to feel like you are growing and you know, maturing in the same level. And you really sense that you shouldn't be driving at night. And so it ended up actually coming back to me. And I said, I've had some close calls. I shouldn't be driving at night. I think that there is a bigger issue with my vision than I was told. And my, my mom and I decided to go on a journey and try to find some doctors that would tell us what was happening. So we actually visited a lot of different doctors in the Philadelphia area until finally someone said, you know what? I think you should get an erg scan and see if there's any anything that comes out of that. And I did this scan and right before I went off to college I did all the testing and then was told six months later, halfway through my freshman year of college, that I was diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: And that I was essentially going blind. And so that was interesting to me and interesting time because for me, it was almost like a sense of relief. Like, I had a diagnosis and I could research it. I was validated in my feelings and my sentiments that there was something you know, going on with my vision beyond this, you know, night blindness diagnosis I'd gotten many years ago. But for my family, I think it was a little bit harder to grasp because they had never really been a part of the blind blindness community. Low vision community. And, yeah, they didn't really know how to support me what this would be like. And it was an yeah, a challenging but, you know, also validating time in my life to receive that diagnosis. And so I went through college having now I knew I had RPI. I went to Boston University and I studied communications there. And at the time with, with my diagnosis I yeah, my night vision wasn't great, but I still had a lot of vision during the daytime. So I was not using any kind of mobility devices, not really using anything to help me out. I could manage pretty much as a sighted person. And it was interesting because I was like, where do I fit in if I am not totally sighted and I'm not totally blind? Where is my place? But I think I just embraced and tried to hold on to what I could.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Of of still having sight and presenting myself like that. Until actually quite recently, where more of my vision has or my vision has declined further. So in, in the past few years, I now live in Seattle, as you mentioned. I'm here. And I work for Brooks running the the performance footwear and apparel company. And I am a runner, and I've been a runner for the past 6 or 7 years. And for a while, I ran totally independently. It was something that brought a lot of freedom into my life, and it made me feel really capable. Especially when, you know, there are a lot of things I have felt I couldn't do as much anymore. But in the past few years, I was tripping a lot when I was running, was falling, was having some close calls, and I found that the freedom I once felt in running was was slowly, disappearing. It was no longer freeing. And it was actually very anxiety inducing to go out for a run. But I was introduced to guided running last year, which totally, totally changed my mindset on a lot of things. And one of those things was, you know, really presenting myself as a low vision blind individual, being comfortable asking for help and transitioning the ways that I do things to adapt, to be able to continue, you know, living my life and doing everything.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Alternative to alternative techniques.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Right, exactly.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So you and I met out at Brooks running headquarters and in the center of the universe in Fremont. Yes. Seattle. And it was a foundation fighting blindness event where a lot of organizations in the community that have to do with recreation and outdoor activities for people who are blind gathered together. And you and I had a little conversation about that. I ran cross-country in high school. My junior and senior years. We had moved from Silverton, Oregon to Snohomish, Washington, and my English teacher was the cross-country coach, and I was kind of a I was I was wrestling from our earlier age, but I, I was a fit. Kind of tall, slender guy. And he said, you look like you should run distance. So why don't you come out and try cross-country, which I did. And and I had a really wonderful experience. I, we invented our we invented guided running for ourselves because we didn't we didn't have any contact with any other blind people. We just kind of made it up on the fly. I ran with teammates during practice and then for meets the girls cross country coach, a gentleman named Mac Bates, was a very competitive distance runner. So he he ran with me during meets. And he could run and carry on a normal conversation. Well, well, I, I was doing. Doing my best, but I couldn't remember that sense of freedom. I remember when the first district meet. It was all on Walter E Hall Golf course up in Everett. And it was the first time I had worn spikes. And I just remember you know, they were long sloping grassy expanses there. There was really no danger of collision or tripping. And I can just remember that sense of freedom when I really, really ran. I mean, really opened up and and ran at, you know, my full, full capability. And it was a wonderful thing. And then the other little, little piece. Yeah, the other little piece is Coach Eason said. Go buy a pair of Brooks Villanova's to train it. So that's what. That's what I had.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: So awesome. I love to hear that. But yeah, I think that the sense of freedom is is something I love to talk about because I think, you know, if I look back on a few years ago when I was running by myself, I thought that what I was feeling was freedom. And I think in a way it was it was great for me to go out and do that. But the minute I started running with a guide where, you know, you no longer had to try to see something you would never see or slow your pace so that you wouldn't trip or fall or just feel safe and not and let go of the anxiety. Oh my gosh. It was so freeing and so amazing to just go out there and feel like you can truly practice the sport with the help of of somebody making sure that you stay safe and that you stay on the path and hopefully don't twist an ankle.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So we did the guided running. It was just all verbal. He he would run kind of a half pace. Ahead.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Just off my shoulder and you know, say, you know, there's a slope coming up in about ten, you know, 20 strides gradual slope down or, you know, we're coming up on you know we're going to angle to the right about 20 degrees that, that kind of thing. And then how do you do it? What's what what's the real technique?

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: I, I always tell people that, you know, it's whatever works best for you. And so I think that there's a few different techniques that I've seen people use. My, my preferred technique is I use what I call either a hand tether or a waist tether. The hand tether is it can be anything, honestly, that you both hold on to. But I have ones that my my friend actually crocheted and it's a, it's a bracelet basically that goes on my wrist. And then there's a attachment to another bracelet that goes on my guide's wrist. And as we're running the tether, does a lot of the communication for you, because if we need to go a little bit to the left or a little bit to the right, you'll either sense the tension of the tether, or you'll sense that the person guiding you is becoming a little closer to you, which tells you to move a little bit more. There's also a lot with just contact. So when we do turns, those can be really tricky. But if you have your forearms connected, you can feel the degree of the turn that you are about to make. And so there's a lot you can do from just a feel and touch. If, if you're comfortable with that and then obviously verbal cues on hills, textures, lighting, all of that can help as well. Yeah.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Do you have a preference for which side your guide is on?

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: I always prefer my left side. I think for me to, when I'm running on a path that has runners coming the other way, it's nice to have a blocker of.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Right, right, right. That makes.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Sense.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. And then I think a bonus tip that I always tell the guides is that what's really nice is when a guide can communicate what they're seeing and what they're passing. So describing the area, describing the scenery. And I always said that the first time I ran a race with the guides was the first race that I really felt like I saw, because they were reading the signs, they were telling me what was going on. And I had run many races in the past by myself, but really didn't feel like I had experienced what was around me. So it was really beautiful to have that extra layer of help and support.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And now you've you've. You're spreading the joy by by creating your running group.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: I am yes. So that's been the best thing I think I've, I've ever started is I, after my own experience of transitioning from running solely you know, alone to running with a guide, I realized that I shouldn't be the only one who gets to experience the sensation, and that there's also such beautiful community and partnership in adaptive running with guides and living in the Seattle area. I had not found another organization that was, you know, specific to adaptive running for low vision blind individuals. That was meeting regularly to really help folks get into running. I think something that is interesting for running is that the more you do it, the better you get. And so with a lot of things and if people want to, you know, feel more confident running, I wanted to build a space where they had the opportunity to do that. And so I started a club, a running club called Free 2 Fly. The name is very intentional. The free is really a play on, on the freedom that you feel, and hopefully that you'll feel when you begin to run with us. The two is the the number two, which is a play on the, the two people that you need to be able to run. And the partnership that it involves and the fly is not only the sensation, hopefully that you're feeling like you're flying or running is the closest you can get to flying.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: I think from at least that I know of from a human perspective. But it's also play on the logo that I have, which has two tethered butterflies on it. And to me, butterflies have always symbolized transformation and change and seeing the beauty in, in that. And I think for me, transitioning into this and also accepting myself as a low vision blind individual and adapting to change I've seen that, like being positive in that transformation has helped me see the beauty in it as well. And so that's where the name comes from. And I thought a lot about it. But now, now I love I love that we say 3 to 5. So that's the name. And we meet every Sunday morning. Here in Seattle, we have guides and low vision. Blind athletes come and I always pair up a guide and a runner based on their pace, their goals. And it's been really amazing and it has grown a lot over the last few months. And we're a group of us are all doing A5K in the next few weeks together, and it'll be some of their first races ever. First. That's great. Yeah, it'll it'll be really fun. So it's been the best project and I'm really.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Really.

Dr. Kirk Adams: On Sundays, do you always meet at the same place or you just you move.

Dr. Kirk Adams: On.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: So we have been meeting in the same place. There's we meet at Gasworks Park, and that helps to make sure that, you know, you you gain some familiarity with this space. And I think that helps. At least it has helped me be more confident when I'm familiar with that. Okay. There will be some hills. There will be, you know, some bikers potentially just knowing that. But then also as a blind runner myself, I have also wanted to explore other places. And I think with guides you can really go anywhere. So we actually now just started this yesterday on our meetup. Every first, first Sunday of every month we will go to a new place. And I've been calling that our monthly field trip to a new place.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Where was your field? Oh. Green lake.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Nice.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. Green Lake yesterday.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yep. Yeah. So yeah, for.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Those of you not from Seattle, Green Lake has a beautiful path around the whole lake, so.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.

Dr. Kirk Adams: How do people get in touch if they want to run or want to guide?

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. So right now we're trying to build out something that's a little bit easier, like some websites and, and stuff. Right now social media is the, the easiest way. We have an Instagram account called Free 2 Fly. Underscore RC where a lot of people can get in touch. There's also an app called Halo h e l o Oh and that's where I organize the, the attendees every week, so you can RSVP to each run that way. I will say that the app right now has some accessibility challenges. And so I have been contacting the blind low vision runners on WhatsApp separately, but I'm also working on trying to get that app to be more accessible so that we can have everyone on one place.

Dr. Kirk Adams: That's great.

Dr. Kirk Adams: I I'm really intrigued by your job, your day job and what you do at Brooks running. If if you wouldn't mind talking a little bit.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Of course. That your career and how you got into it and What how how did you get from Boston University to Fremont neighborhood in Seattle?

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Yeah. Yeah. Of course. So I, I think that I've always been an impact driven person. I've always wanted to work in a role where I would be making a positive impact. I think that's what drives me to work every day. But I, I graduated from Boston University with a degree in mass communications. But I honestly had no real idea at the time when I was in school what I wanted to do. All I knew was that I, I really liked the fashion industry in college. And so while I was at Bu, I did a few internships in the fashion space, more around the merchandising side of fashion. And that brought me actually to Seattle for Nordstrom. I worked there for a few years. And at Nordstrom, I you know, started as an intern in, in mass communication or sorry, not mass communications in fashion merchandising, working in the buying office. But as I was there, I, you know, had posed some questions about sustainability. I always thought that, you know, brands and retailers should be doing more in the sustainability space and was really lucky that at the time, they needed entry level people in that space and so was offered a role.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: After my internship in the CSR department, the corporate social responsibility department at Nordstrom. And that role focused mostly on the social side of sustainability, which is really around human rights in the supply chain, making sure that the factories we're working with are compliant to laws and regulations that uphold worker rights. And I loved it and I, I felt like there was a lot we could do to help benefit the people making the products. And so I was there for a few years doing a lot of that work, and then ended up, you know, finding a similar role at Brooks. Now, I, I. I lead that department at Brooks. And I, I do similar things, but have Brooks has a smaller supply chain, so it's, it's a little bit more focused in that way. But we yeah, we work every day with the factories that make our products to do different kinds of assessments and make sure that the workers in those factories are treated fairly, compensated fairly, and that we are sourcing our products in an ethical way.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Sounds like fun to me.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: It's it's a lot of work, but it's great.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So the time has flown by, but any any thoughts on. I know you're you're going to be growing Free 2 Fly. Are there other, you know, are you similar simmering on any other endeavors?

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Right now my focus is on Free 2 Fly. By I do. I'm working right now to establish it as a non-profit. I think that there's a lot we can do to help this community beyond these, like, weekly community events. And so I think that once that step is completed, there's a lot more that we can do there to help support this community and also help, you know, diversify the running industry by helping promote you know, races and have folks go and, and join them and just have the visibility of these people since and raising awareness since a lot of time. We're not seeing us being represented in those areas. So that's the focus. I think there's a lot of a lot of work there that can be done. So it excites me a lot. And yeah, we'll see where that goes.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh Well, so glad that I decided to go to the FFP event at Brooks Running and met you. And I am here to. I'm here to support in any way I can. And if anyone's listening, who wants to get in touch with me Email us. Kirk. Adams. Adams. Adams. Adams. Com. And I'm Kirk Adams, PhD, on LinkedIn. And my my PhD is in leadership and change, and I did an ethnographic study of blind adults employed at large American corporations. So I interviewed a lot of cool blind people working out at a lot of companies that we're all familiar with. And I learned about why they self-defined as successfully employed the factors that they felt led to their ability to be successful, and then the ongoing going. Disappointment and frustration that everyone still experiences being being in that world that wasn't necessarily designed for us, but still needing to make our way and doing the best we can to thrive. So I really appreciate you what you're doing. Thank you so much for joining me today, and I look forward to speaking with you again soon. Thanks, everybody.

Ixchel Lemus Bromley: Thank you.

Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Adams. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening. Keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this engaging episode, Dr. Kirk Adams sits down with Margaux Joffe, a board-certified cognitive specialist, accessibility champion and founder of Minds of All Kinds, to trace her journey from a late-in-life ADHD diagnosis at 29 to becoming a leading voice for neurodiversity in tech and beyond. Joffe recounts how learning she was neurodivergent reframed earlier struggles, inspired the women-focused Kaleidoscope Society project, and ultimately propelled her to create Yahoo's first Neurodiversity Employee Resource Group, which blossomed into a 35-office global network before she moved full-time into the company's storied accessibility team. Along the way she underscores the importance of dismantling invisible workplace barriers, from overwhelming procurement paperwork to inaccessible technologies, and credits mentors like accessibility luminaries Larry Goldberg and Mike Banach for sharpening her advocacy lens. The conversation then pivots to Joffe's entrepreneurial leap: launching Minds of All Kinds as an LLC dedicated to "learn, connect and lead" programming for neurodivergent professionals. Flagship offering ADHD Navigators has already graduated more than a hundred participants across fifteen cohorts, pairing evidence-based coaching with peer community to combat burnout and build strength-based career strategies. Joffe and Adams explore the ripple effects, parents modeling self-regulation for their children, companies re-thinking cognitive accessibility, and a broader "generational healing" that turns lived experience into systemic change. Their dialogue leaves listeners with a clear takeaway: inclusive design and empowered storytelling are not just accommodations, they're pathways to flourishing workplaces and lives. TRANSCRIPT:

Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Doctor Kirk Adams.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody, to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. I am, said Doctor Kirk Adams. And today I have a fabulous guest who I have had the pleasure of knowing for quite a number of years now. Margaux Joffe is here. She is the founder of a nonprofit called Minds of All Kinds. So say hi, Margaux.

Margaux Joffe: Hi. Hi. Kirk. Hi everyone listening. Let me just say. Oh, Doctor Kirk. My Bad.

Dr. Kirk Adams: There you go. One time.

Margaux Joffe: Doctor Kirk.

Dr. Kirk Adams: We'll go doctor one time. But yeah, I, I and I come by that. For those who don't know me, I have a PhD in leadership and Change from Antioch University, which I completed about six years ago. And my dissertation it's called Journeys Through Rough Country, an ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations. So I interviewed a lot of really cool blind people working at brand name companies that we all know and found out to. To what did they attribute their success? What were their challenges and ongoing challenges and what are their disappointments? That was a bit of a surprise that I wanted people who would self-describe as successfully employed, and they all did. And they, they very clearly tied that success to compensation and economic freedom, and they all expressed a pretty strong degree of disappointment that they were the only person who was blind who'd reach that level in the org chart, that they didn't see anyone in leadership with the disability, that people who were junior to them and they felt less qualified were promoted beyond them, that they needed to constantly battle for accommodations that their employer would, for instance, decide to implement a new technology system and not take accessibility into account.

Dr. Kirk Adams: They would walk in one day to do their job and couldn't do it. So they had had had to continually, continually battle and really disappointed really, really a high level of disappointment that they were the exception rather than. And anyway, it's called Journeys Through Rough Country by Doctor Kirk Adams. You can find it with a search engine. And I'm proud of it. The doctoral work was really, really enlightening, talking to all these fellow blind individuals. And I'm blind myself. Have been since age five, when my retinas detached and I became totally blind very suddenly. And I went to a residential school for blind kids. State of Oregon, Oregon State School for the blind for first, second, and third grade. And I was given three gifts there. I was given really strong blindness skills. I had to learn how to read braille, travel with a cane, and type on a typewriter. So I could go to public school. When I was ready, I was given the blindness skills I was given the gift of high expectations. Not all kids with disabilities live in environments where people expect much of them. And sometimes those low expectations become internalized.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So I had high expectations from my family and my school, and then I then I was given that strong internal locus of control, and that that's something that everyone I interviewed for my dissertation talked about, that they had some set of experiences that gave them that belief deep in their bones that they could overcome. They could solve problems. They could carve their own path as, as opposed to a strong external locus of control where you think things, things are happening to me, and I can't really do much about that. So that, so that so that's a that's just a little bit about me. But we're really here to learn about you, Margaux. So I would love to hear about your journey as a person. With a disability. And what brought you to the point where you founded minds of all kinds and what you're currently doing, what the scope of activity is on your vision of the future because I know you have one. So I'll turn it over to you and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll reserve the right to pop in and ask you a question from time to time. But really, here's the talking stick. I'm handing it to you.

Margaux Joffe: Okay. Thank you. I'm taking the talking stick. Thank you for having me on your podcast. It's so fun to do this after. I think we met in person maybe eight years ago or so when I was working at Yahoo. Yeah.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Brand new. Yeah. Just starting.

Margaux Joffe: I was just starting on the Yahoo accessibility team, and I believe you came maybe, maybe my first couple weeks in that role. So. Yeah, it's what a full circle moment. But yeah. So thank you for the introduction. I am proud to be a neurodivergent woman. I am a board certified cognitive specialist and the founder of Minds of All Kinds, which is an LLC platform for neurodivergent individuals to learn, connect and lead. And we also do training for companies to help them learn how to be more inclusive for minds of all kinds. And it's funny because I didn't always do this work, and I didn't always know that I was even neurodivergent. I have a background in the creative field, so I'm a former producer. About I spent about ten years producing everything from public health campaigns for the city of Boston to advertising campaigns for big brands in New York City and then tech campaigns in Silicon Valley. And that's how I where I started making my transition into accessibility. And really the turning point for me came when I was 29 and I was diagnosed with ADHD. That was really a life changing experience. That shifted how I understood myself, how I understood the world and LED to me creating a platform for women with ADHD, which ultimately led into my broader neurodiversity and accessibility work.

Dr. Kirk Adams: But a little bit more about that, and I think I misspoke when I said you founded a nonprofit. I think you just said you're an LLC.

Margaux Joffe: Yes. I just wanted to make that connection. And I think it's funny because one of the reasons I chose an LLC structure is because when it comes to running a business, when it comes to working, when it comes to just adulting and surviving in the world, there's so much paperwork. There's a term called administrative burden. And for people with cognitive disabilities, for people who are neurodivergent, sometimes it's the paperwork that can get in the way of our greatness. And I was literally just talking to somebody earlier this morning who is this incredible public speaker and futurist technologist who travels around the world working with big companies. And she was literally just telling me that she hasn't gotten a payment for one of her projects because she hasn't done the paperwork to get into their procurement system. And that's the blocker. And she's really struggling. And so that that's the thing that's one of the things for people to understand is that. There's so many invisible barriers. Yeah. That many other people don't understand why is this a big deal? You know, just like fill out this procurement paperwork.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Right?

Margaux Joffe: But things are not always cognitively accessible, and that keeps people out. And that keeps people out of financial opportunities. So I'm now I'm now I'm on my cognitive accessibility soapbox. But to answer your question.

Dr. Kirk Adams: I wanted to I also wanted to hear about to diagnosis. So you said the turning point came at 29 when you were diagnosed with ADHD. And, you know, I'm aware that people receive that diagnosis as adults. And what led you to the point where you were in a situation where you were being diagnosed or being treated, or what was the situation that led to you understanding that ADHD is one of your characteristics?

Margaux Joffe: Yeah. So it's interesting because when we're born with a certain type of brain, we don't know anything different. And that's how it was for me. Like I was just like, oh, this is how my mind works. I thought this, I thought it was how everybody's mind works. Right? And you know, I started struggling with depression and anxiety when I was in my teenage years. And it really escalated when I went to college. And because there was no concrete outward thing I could point to as to why I was feeling that way, why I would just feel this chaos of emotion sometimes, why I felt disorganized, overwhelmed, you know, but in many other ways, you know, I was smart. I did well in school. So and, you know, some people use this term spiky profile. I definitely had a spiky profile where I had extreme strengths. And then also very frustrating challenges in areas that made me feel like maybe I was just being lazy. So what do you do if you think you're lazy, you work twice as hard as anyone else. So I did a lot of masking and overcompensating, and I also just chalked it up to, you know, I'm a creative, sensitive person. So I thought, you know, I just need to toughen up because the world is tough and I'm just too sensitive and my heart is too tender for this world. And when I was in my late 20s, I got a job working for a non-profit media company in the Bay area.

Margaux Joffe: So I left New York City. I'd been working in New York City as a producer, and I wanted to get back to work. That was social impact driven because I had loved working in an advertising agency, working with amazing creative people in New York, producing exciting campaigns. But I felt like something was missing because I've always been energized when I'm working on projects where I feel like it's making a difference for people. And so I took this job working for a non-profit media company, so I moved across the country. It was a lot of change all at once, you know, new, new living arrangement, new job, new city, new. My support systems that I had in New York were gone, and my anxiety really ramped up and I started having panic attacks and I just knew something was wrong. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know what it was. And actually, the day that kind of made it clear was I went to Ikea and my mom kindly volunteered to come with me to help me because I had to get some furniture for my new apartment. And I don't know why. We thought we decided to go on a Sunday and it was hot. It was crowded. There was so many people there that day. There was kids screaming and looking back, I can see now what was happening was it was from a sensory perspective. It was very overstimulating for me. So the sensory environment was very overstimulating. I didn't have any awareness or tools.

Margaux Joffe: Like today, I bring my earplugs with me. When I go into places like that, I prepare mentally in advance, knowing like, okay, this might be a lot, but I'm mentally prepared and I know that I can have an exit plan, but that day I didn't have any of those awareness or tools or language to be able to advocate for myself. And my battery started getting run down. And on top of that, I was using a lot of executive functioning skills because I had to make a lot of decisions about am I, am I buying this color of towels or am I buying that color of towels? What couch am I going to get? And these are like big decisions about spending money. And so I was using a lot of cognitive resources, and I think I was like, maybe I didn't sleep well the night before. And so my cognitive battery, my brain battery was definitely run down. And I started to as we're going through Ikea, all of a sudden something felt wrong and I was like, oh, like I felt like I was shutting down and now I understand sensory overload and that there was more information coming in from my sensory environment than my brain had the ability to process. And so for me, it, you know, it triggered a response of anxiety, of panic, of emotional you know, emotional flooding. And I wasn't able to, you know, communicate my needs in that moment. And I just told my mom I was like, I was like, I can't I can't stay here.

Margaux Joffe: I need to get out of here. And I didn't have the language to explain why. Right. And she was like, oh, like we're almost done. Like, let's just keep going. And, you know, when we don't understand what's going on, it can make us feel like a child, you know, like childish, like, well, this is not a big deal. What's wrong with you? Why can't you just, you know, make this this like we're in an Ikea, like what's going on, right? So. Right. But my mom is amazing, and so she. I think she could tell I was overwhelmed, and she Yeah, we finished the shopping trip. We got out of there, and the next morning she called me and I remember it was, you know, first thing in the morning. And she was like, it's now a good time. I want to talk to you about something important. And my first thought was like, oh my gosh, did a relative die like her? Because her tone of voice was very different. Serious? I knew like, this was going to be a conversation that I needed to be paying attention to. And before I could say anything, she was like, you know, I was reading this article about women with ADHD and I wanted to read you this list of symptoms. And she started reading this list of symptoms of women with ADHD. And I remember I was listening to her words, and it was like someone was holding up a mirror to my life.

Margaux Joffe: And here tears just started streaming down my face. I mean, I was 29, right? So imagine I had lived almost three decades of life, and it was this recognition moment of like, oh my gosh, even realizing something was different. And then also at the same time having this relief of an explanation of like, oh my gosh, there's a reason why certain things were so hard for me or why I have certain experiences, and it was also a roller coaster of emotion. So after that I went and got an evaluation and so many emotions, you know, the relief and the moments, but also the grief and sadness about, wow, maybe I could have gotten a lot more out of my education if I knew, and different ways of studying, different ways of doing things in school without using different strategies that I used of like, you know, just white knuckling my way through doing whatever I could to, to get things done, even if it was like also just bullshitting and improvising my way through a lot of stuff that that was hard. And so I always tell people who are recently diagnosed, whether it's with ADHD or, another form of neuro divergences. You don't have to figure it out all in the first day. Giving yourself time to process the diagnosis is important because there's a lot of emotions, and sometimes it takes time to process and really settle into knowing what that means for you. And that's okay.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So you're you have a name now for. Yeah. You have language now that you didn't have before at 29. You've been given terminologies and explanations and rationales for why you've had some of the experiences you had. So I imagine then as you process and kind of grew into that understanding that also some other things must have changed for you too.

Margaux Joffe: Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, being able to name our experiences is so important because when we name something, then we can navigate it and then it's not we can look at it outside of ourself and be like, okay sensory overload. I may have I have sensory processing sensitivities. This means if I go into certain environments, I may start to get overstimulated. That's what that might look like. And here's ways I can support myself I can communicate, I can plan ahead. I can manage my cognitive resources. I can bring earplugs. I can make decisions about where I'm going on a first date with somebody. Maybe I'm not going to a sports bar. Maybe I'm going to a cozy cafe. Right? So we start to have more agency over our life. And when you were talking about strong, you were talking about strong locus of control as one of the gifts that you got from the school that you went to. And I think that resonated with me deeply, because I see a specifically for a lot of people with ADHD. Part of the healing journey is regaining our locus of control, and to put it in plain language, is regaining trust in our own self and regaining the feeling that we have the power to make decisions over our own life.

Margaux Joffe: Because for people that go undiagnosed with ADHD, we are taking actions, but we're not getting the outcomes that we want or that we expect, right? So we might care about someone a lot, have an intention. We want to do something. We say we're going to do something and then we don't do it. We don't follow through. And so that's one example of a struggle that, you know, people with ADHD, if they're undiagnosed or even if they have a diagnosis, but they don't have the skills and strategies. There's a lot of shame around a lot of shame around not following through and even on things that are important, you know, things that are important to people. And so what happens is not only does that damage our relationships with people in our life and damage our credibility. The most painful part of it is that it damages our ability to trust our self. And so when you lose trust in yourself, then that's going back to you feel like you don't have that locus of control. You don't have agency self-efficacy, being able to feel like you can trust yourself to have power over your own life.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And did the diagnosis and the language and the self-identification of the person who's neurodivergent. And that leads you to the work and accessibility you mentioned when I first met you. You were you were part of the accessibility team at Yahoo! Like, you know, I was the CEO of American Foundation for the blind at the time that come out, come out from New York to visit our friends in the Bay area. And so I'm just wondering how you went. I think you said you're working for a nonprofit media company at the time of your diagnosis. And how what was the path from there to being on? Yeah, on a on a renowned accessibility team with some with some legends and accessibility.

Margaux Joffe: Life is so life is so funny and amazing and, you know, the roads and how we get to where we are. But when I was first diagnosed, no, I wasn't thinking I'm going to now become an accessibility, you know, professional. That was not my thought at all. My first thought was just what does this mean for me and What the heck? I mean, I'm a producer. How can I have ADHD? I mean, I literally get paid to produce campaigns on time and on budget, staying on top of every detail, making sure they're getting delivered to the spec in the right file format and so they can work whether they're going on TV, radio, internet, etc.. So learning about ADHD was a huge eye opener to be like, oh, people with ADHD, it's not that they can't pay attention is that our attention works differently and we're motivated by things like interest, challenge, novelty, urgency. I was like, oh, it makes sense now working in the creative field because there's such a high level of novelty. There's always new campaigns, new amazing creative people to work with, urgency, being in a fast paced, deadline driven environment. Challenge is always new challenges to solve. And so that's why you see a lot of people with ADHD in fields like journalism, technology, emergency first response services. And when we're in those environments, we can thrive at the time, I was not thriving in that. And that specific time I was struggling and I was looking for resources for adult women with ADHD. And so this was about 11 years ago that I was diagnosed. And I remember, you know, going online because I'm a millennial.

Margaux Joffe: And I was like, let me go on the internet. And a lot of the information I found was for parents, you know parents or men. And a lot of it was clinical and very mythologizing about like, this is what's wrong with you. And these are the bad outcomes. And if you have ADHD, you won't accomplish your goals and you'll be in financial ruin, and you'll be in divorce and you'll lose your job. You know, a lot of negative. Yeah, a lot of negative content out there. And I was struggling to find resources that I could relate with. I was struggling to find role models. You know, I remember I went to I started therapy for the first time after my diagnosis and my therapist was amazing. He specialized in ADHD. I always tell people, if you're looking for a therapist and you have ADHD, you know, ask them about what their experience is because not all of therapists have experience working with people with ADHD. But he showed me this PowerPoint and it was it was so great. And it was telling me, you know, explaining what ADHD is. And there was this one slide that was about strengths, and there was another slide about famous people with ADHD. So he really took a strengths based approach, and I really loved that. We got to the slide about famous people with ADHD. And I remember it was all men literally like not one woman on this slide. It was, you know, a list of all these men and, you know, like Richard Branson and, you know, all of the, all of the usual. And it was in that moment where I was like, wow.

Margaux Joffe: Like where, where are the women? And I went on to Instagram and I looked for ADHD women, and I found there was two posts with the hashtag because at that time that's how you searched up you on the. There was a hashtag area, two posts with the hashtag ADHD women, and that's hard to even believe, as I'm saying it now, because now we have TikTok. TikTok wasn't even a thing then. But you know, we go into TikTok, you can find millions of videos of women talking without with ADHD. But it was in that moment where I started thinking about, how can I help other people that are probably struggling in the same way that I am? And I thought about, how can I use my background as a producer and in documentary work to make a difference? So I started interviewing women with ADHD. I went to a local support group, and I met a couple women that were there And I started there. And just one by one, I started interviewing women with ADHD about their lived experiences. And that led to creating a website called Kaleidoscope Society, which was the first of its kind content platform created for and by women with ADHD. And so we highlighted diverse lived experience of different women and their experience about how they were building on their strengths, how they were navigating challenges. And then I also got to work with leading experts in the field to create, you know, short form digital media content that we could highlight specifically for this audience. And so that was really my journey.

Dr. Kirk Adams: This kaleidoscope society is still a resource for people. Or is it morphed into something else?

Margaux Joffe: Yes. And so yes. And in that I made the decision two years ago to sunset the website. It's still there as an archive that I have to say, there are a couple accessibility issues with it as WordPress. You know, as things have changed and things have gotten outdated. And so but I kept it up as an archive. So Kaleidoscope society.com, it still is there. And now I have expanded my work to minds of all kinds, really, to create resources around neurodiversity more broadly. But Kaleidoscope Society was really my onramp into what would be my journey into the accessibility field. But it didn't happen right away. I was just doing Kaleidoscope Society on the on the side as a passion project. And during that time, I had taken a new role as head of production in the marketing department for Yahoo! And when I took the role, I didn't disclose I had ADHD because, you know, I was trying to pay my bills and it was my first job in tech. It was still a time where I was in meetings, where sometimes I was the only woman in the room. And, you know, I was trying to build my career as a as a producer. And I was also a people manager. So I had I managed a team of producers. So I was also worried about what are people going to think? And I really just wanted to give people the chance to see what I could do before they had a label in their mind that could possibly change their perception of my abilities, especially in the role of production, because production is all again about, you know, it's all about getting things done on time and on budget and being organized.

Margaux Joffe: And so that doesn't really jive with the stereotypes that are out there about ADHD. So I was working. So how I got into accessibility from there was working in production. And two things happen. One is that about a year in, I started feeling like I was living a double life because Kaleidoscope Society was gaining traction. We were getting more attention. There was media coverage about us. And so in in my free time, I was an advocate in the community, in the community for women with ADHD. But then my day job, I was masking and I didn't tell anybody at work. No one knew that I had ADHD. No one knew that I had created this project for women with ADHD. So I started to feel that my integrity wasn't yeah, wasn't showing up. And integrity is one of my top three core values. So I started to feel like this noise inside of me. And so I started thinking, what could I do, where I am in the role that I'm at, where I could make a difference, maybe in my workplace. And I had been hearing all these stories from women with ADHD, and one of the main challenges that I was hearing time and again was challenges in the workplace. Do I disclose in the workplace, You know, what about all of these? You know, all the different challenges people were experiencing. And so I started to see, like, this is an area that we need to address.

Margaux Joffe: And it was funny, at the time, I didn't know anyone with ADHD at Yahoo. I didn't know any neurodivergent people. People didn't talk about neurodiversity. People didn't even talk about mental health at the time in the way that they do now. And I saw that we had ERGs, which are employee resource groups, which are basically like peer networks for employees of different identities, whether they're veterans, black employees, women. So I started thinking, like, maybe I can build on this existing structure that exists. And I propose starting a neurodiversity employee resource group. At the time, people didn't really even know what I was talking about, like what neurodiversity means. But we had an amazing head of Dei and she supported it. And we launched the group in 2017. And it was funny because on in the proposal they asked me like, well, how many employees do you have that are going to join? And I said, you know, and it was hard for me to answer because I didn't know, but I knew, I knew in my I knew in my intuition. I'm like, I know we're out here because first of all, the tech and the creative areas like the neurodivergent people were out here. And and then I remember we, we made the announcement. And then one by one by one, people started coming forward saying, yes, like, this is me. I want to be part of this. And over the next few years, we built a global peer support network in 35 offices around the world. And that was.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Wow.

Margaux Joffe: Transformative. And I mean, and in that process. So this is the long, winding road of how I got to accessibility. So well, that was happening and I was working on the proposal. I had also, in parallel been asking about accessibility because as a producer, it was one of the things that I knew from my agency days of like, you know, different companies have different requirements about if you're launching a website, if you're launching, you know, a digital campaign, there's accessibility requirements. So I didn't really know much about accessibility, but I knew it was a thing, and I was getting a lot of blank stares in the marketing department. And so I went to the product department and there was this one guy and he's like, oh yeah, go talk to the accessibility team. I was like, oh, we have an accessibility team. Like I had been at the company for a while. I didn't even know we had an accessibility team. And I remember I went over to another building on our campus and walked into this little kind of like conference room that was in the corner that had been converted into. When I first walked in, it looked like a computer lab, and that's when I found the accessibility team and they're like, come on in. And they started showing me the assistive technology that they had. And they started talking to me about all about accessibility. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like, we need to get the whole marketing department knowing about this. This is an amazing resource. And I'm talking about, I mean, you know, the team I mean, Larry, Larry Goldberg, who helped get closed captions on TV for the first time, Mike. Banach, who had worked had come from Apple and who had helped be part of the initiative to get VoiceOver launched. I mean, these were some of the OGs in the accessibility.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Space you had. You had legends on that team, that's for sure.

Margaux Joffe: Yes.

Margaux Joffe: And that's where I always say, I mean, I was so lucky to. That we had that team. I mean, I've everything I know is because of all the people that have worked in the field that taught me everything they knew. And so it really started. I went to our, our head of marketing and I was like, hey, you know, we need to add this into our production guidelines. And there's a team and they can and they can train us. And so we started I started setting up workshops where we would bring groups from marketing the designers, the developers, bringing them over to the accessibility lab to do workshops. And then it just sort of evolved. And then my boss was like, hey, can you be the unofficial accessibility, you know, point of contact for our department, for the marketing department. And it really just evolved from there. And as I started learning more and more about accessibility, I really was like, and then I had launched the Neurodiversity Employee Resource Group at that time, and I really felt like, okay, I love producing, but this accessibility stuff, this is lighting me up in a way that is different. And I was so passionate about it, and I saw that there was such a need for us to spread accessibility, awareness and education. And so it evolved. And it it got to a point where the accessibility team, their biggest challenge is that people in the company didn't really know that they existed and what they did. And accessibility is really everyone's job. It's not the job of an accessibility team. I mean, accessibility teams are there to you know, have the subject matter expertise and help guide. But really, accessibility is successful when everyone in a company knows how they need to be applying it into their everyday work.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Right.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So you are no longer leading a double life.

Margaux Joffe: Yes.

Dr. Kirk Adams: You're leading a life, an integrated whole life.

Margaux Joffe: And yeah, so I was able to make a transition into the accessibility team full time. So I, I moved and that's like one of the things I tell you, people, you know, if they're starting out their career, the cool thing about working at a large company is that you have so much opportunity for growth, and you can start doing one thing, and then a couple of years later, you can maybe move into a different department. And so I really am thankful that I had that opportunity. And I it was kind of like a crash course. And I learned.

Margaux Joffe: I.

Margaux Joffe: Learned so much about accessibility. You got to work with amazing partners and groups, you know, like your former organization. So yeah, that's the long version, the long.

Margaux Joffe: Version of the story.

Dr. Kirk Adams: That's a that's a super interesting version. I really appreciate it. And then let's fast forward a little bit to mines of all kinds.

Margaux Joffe: Yeah. So I. Worked on a number of disability initiatives and accessibility initiatives that I won't get into, but about. We got acquired by Verizon. And my journey continued and Verizon corporate brought me over to. Work in their corporate social responsibility team, building out their disability inclusion pillar within their broader portfolio. And that was also a great experience. And then about four years ago, I got to a point where I really realized, like I wanted to focus on neurodiversity and there was so much I wanted to do. And so I decided to leave my corporate job four years ago to go out on my own. And I started minds of all kinds. The first program that I launched was a professional development program for adults with ADHD. Because. So after I had been so publicly visible about being a professional with ADHD, I got so many people reaching out to me about wanting to learn. How do I navigate this? What are skills and strategies? So it was really like the biggest area of need at that time that I was seeing in the community.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So these are working age professional people who have understand that they are neurodiverse and they're looking for tools and techniques and.

Margaux Joffe: Yes.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And resources to thrive. Yes. And so, gotcha.

Margaux Joffe: And I wanted to make sure that I wanted to make sure that, you know, I could create something that was super valuable. So I was like, let me partner with somebody who is best in the world at coaching for adults with ADHD, right? Because my background in accessibility and corporate disability inclusion and a lot of lived experience and also expertise that I had gained. But, you know, I wasn't trained as an ADHD coach per se. You know, so I, I ended up partnering with an amazing person. Cathy Richardson, who is a faculty member at the AD Coach Academy. So she literally trains coaches. ADHD coaches on how to coach and work with adults with ADHD. So we put our superpowers together to create the initial program that we initially was called the great ADHD reset, and it was an eight week cohort based program live cohort based program for adults with ADHD. So anyone from early career to senior career who were looking to escape, you know, the overwhelm, the burnout, the exhaustion that can come with being a professional with ADHD and really figure out how do I move through my day to day life with a more even keel one day at a time and channel my strengths, build on my strengths. So we launched that program in the fall of 2021. We facilitated eight cohorts together. We had over 100 graduates and incredible. Learned so much. And then her work kind of shifted a bit. And so we decided to stop running that program together. But I relaunched another ADHD program using a lot of the core curriculum that we had created together called ADHD navigators.

Margaux Joffe: And we just graduated our seventh cohort of that program. So to sum it up, over the over the last few years, I facilitated 15, 15 group programs for adults with ADHD. And that's one of one of my favorite things to do is working with neurodivergent people. It's been such a privilege. And so that's a that's a core program of minds of all kinds is our ADHD navigators program. I also host community events where I'll bring in outside experts to bring knowledge and resources to the community. So we have for an example One of my friends is an HR expert. She used to be head of HR at places like Netflix and CNN, and she came in to do an event with our community, answering tough questions about workplace challenges specifically for neurodivergent people. Questions like, what do I do if my accommodation requests are denied? How do I navigate micromanaging bosses? You know what? If I'm neurodivergent and I put on a performance improvement plan, how do I navigate these tough situations? So she provided coaching and advice. And so that's an example of, of some of the kind of events is like, and really just responding to the community needs and wants. So listening to people about what their challenges are and then bringing in experts. So that's the community side of things. And really, my vision is creating the space where neurodivergent people, where we can learn, connect and lead. And it starts with empowering ourselves. And once we can empower ourselves. People are empowering others. I've heard stories of people that have gone through the navigators program, and now they're telling me that, you know, they're able to share some of the skills and strategies with their kids because, you know, ADHD is highly genetic.

Margaux Joffe: So if you have ADHD, there's a high chance when one or more of your kids is going to have ADHD. Right. So this is a generational thing. And so I think a lot about how I can be one small part of creating generational healing in my community. And what I mean by generational healing is a lot of forms of neurodivergent are genetic and run of families especially, you know, autism, ADHD, bipolar, etc.. And so our parents and the older generations, a lot of them didn't have access to diagnosis or even know that they were neurodivergent, and so they didn't have the knowledge and skills. And that, for many, caused a lot of challenges that could have been avoided. And they didn't always know how they could pass that down to us. But now we have an opportunity now that we're in this time and we are having these diagnoses and finally getting this awareness and knowledge, we can break the cycle. And first empowering ourselves. And so then we can pass that down to the next generation, whether it's our kids, young people in our life that we're mentoring and letting them know, you know, there are ways of doing things that can be less stressful. You can improve your quality of life. You know, here's things you can do. And also when we can model it, when we can regulate our emotions when we can be at peace in ourselves. Then we can show others that way to peace.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Wow.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So I just feel like saying I'm really proud of you. Really proud of you. Just you're doing wonderful work in helping so many people and going to be helping so many more. And if people want to connect with you and minds of all kinds, what's the best way for people to get in touch?

Margaux Joffe: Thank you for that. Well, you can check out our website. Minds of all kinds. We have our events listed there, and we have a resources page where we link out to, you know, other organizations that are doing great work. So you can visit mines of all kinds or, you know, connect with me on LinkedIn, you know, where I'm on the internet.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So yeah, yeah.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And I just referred someone to yesterday who recruits and places neurodivergent talent, the tech companies who's also here in Seattle. So they'll be reaching out to via LinkedIn shortly.

Margaux Joffe: And thank you so much for that. And thanks for yeah, thanks for making the connection. I love what you're doing with this podcast. I think it's so important that all of us in different areas in the disability space collaborate and work together. We're definitely stronger together. And I think that's something that's important is the the cross movement solidarity.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And sometime we'll, we'll talk about people with multiple disabilities, people who are blind and deaf who have ADHD, and people with ushers who have ADHD and mobility issues and all the things. But it's time has been a truly a pleasure. And it flew by. And for those of you listening who want to get in touch with me my website is Doctor Kirk adams.com. And I'm also very active on Dr Kirk Adams PhD. Page on LinkedIn. So thank you for listening to this podcast. If I visit with Margaux Joffe from the founder of Minds of All Kinds and everyone go, go forth and do good things. So thanks, Margaux.

Margaux Joffe: Thank you Kirk.

Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Kirk Adams. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening. Keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this 30-minute episode, Dr. Kirk Adams speaks with John Robinson, quadruple-amputee entrepreneur and CEO of Our Ability, about the journeys that led them from navigating New York's subway and Amtrak to building tech that removes barriers for people with disabilities. Robinson recounts his path from NBC ad-sales to launching Our Ability, explaining how collaboration with Syracuse University students and successive IBM Watson and Microsoft Azure grants birthed the Jobs Ability AI engine. Today that platform draws around 15,000 monthly visitors and has matched more than 10,000 job-seekers with roles at companies such as CVS and Pfizer, proving that inclusive technology can scale. The conversation pivots to a new frontier: adapting that same AI core to connect disability-owned businesses with corporate procurement opportunities. Prompted by a Fortune-500 client, Robinson is gauging community demand through a concise six-question survey sent to DOBEs, already yielding a 9 percent response rate with overwhelming support. Adams underscores the larger vision, closing the procurement gap, expanding entrepreneurial possibility, and demonstrating that inclusion is a strategic advantage, before urging listeners to complete the survey, share it widely, and join a follow-up discussion in six months when the beta marketplace goes live. TRANSCRIPT:

Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody. This is Doctor Kirk Adams, and you are listening to the very cleverly titled podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. And my guest today is John Robinson, who is founder and owner of Our ability. And I've known John, I think it was 2016 when I was Recruited to lead the American Foundation for the blind. As president and CEO. And left that that same role at the lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle and moved to New York City, lived in Brooklyn, worked at two Penn Plaza, which was right next door to Madison Square Garden in the heart of the Big Apple. And as a totally blind person my greatest orientation and mobility accomplishment was to learn how to take the F train from Park Slope to J Street Metro Tech and transfer to the A, and then take the A into Penn Station and up to 34th and into the office. So took took some leaps of faith. I know, I know, native New Yorkers, blind people who grew up there. It's not a thing. But but for me, I had to I had to screw my courage to the sticking point on that one. But anyway, I met I met John very soon after I, I it might have been because I had been very, very involved with disability in here in Washington state, and I think I was trying to connect with whoever was doing something locally.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And someone said, I should talk to John, and I called John, and you you graciously made the trip into Manhattan, came came to the office at AFB. We had a good talk and we we were very closely aligned on a number of things. Yes. As people with disabilities and entrepreneurs and innovators and leaders, I'll, I'll venture to say. And we've we've had a an ongoing dialogue since then. I really appreciate what John has done with our ability as far as creating a platform for people with disabilities and employers to connect. And now there's an exciting new venture, which I'll ask John to tell you about, which will also support the thriving of people with disabilities in business. But, John, I usually let my guests do most of the talking, so I probably just said about 90% of the words I'm going to say. So I would love to have you tell folks about yourself, your journey so far, how you became so passionate in advocacy and activism. What our ability is doing. How did our ability come to be? What's it doing now and where do you see it going?

John Robinson: Well, there's a lot there. Doctor Kirk Adams, I remember that meeting very well. You're exactly right. That's how it started. So if you were navigating the F train and God bless you for doing that. I was navigating the Acela train from Albany, actually, Rensselaer, down into Penn Station. And so that means, for me, navigating a lot of stairs, navigating elevators that don't work, navigating, carrying my backpack around so that I can use the washroom. I'm a quadruple amputee. I'm three foot eight. Limited extension of my arms and my legs. So our disabilities are different, but the the challenge of journey is is a challenge, and that's part of it. Similar. And so I remember the train trips very well to New York City. I very much try to avoid it as much as I possibly can. Mainly because it's just easier for me to jump in my truck with my hand controls and drive somewhere. But excuse me, new York is not easy to drive around, and it's not easy to park. So I do avoid New York as much as I can, but if I have to be there, it's it's navigating the train and the elevators. And so I empathize with what you were saying because.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, now now that I've heard this, it's even even more meaningful that you made that trek. So I really appreciate you coming in to see me.

John Robinson: We were at the time I was three years into this organization. We we have a s corp, so we have a corporation, and we had a nonprofit as well. The nonprofit was the one that was running the disability in New York entity, then NY, before the name change. We were happy to do it. It was something that we wanted to do. We had some businesses that supported us with some donations and businesses interested in what disability N was doing. Price Chopper Market 32, KeyBank, MT Bank among among those.

Dr. Kirk Adams: On for those for those who might not be familiar, I'll just give a really quick overview. So the disability in is disability. I in as an all in lean in disability in.org. It started out as the US Business Leadership Network. It was an initiative of the US Chamber of Commerce in the very early 2000. And it is a group of major corporations. 70 of the fortune 100 publicly traded large companies that have made a commitment to accelerate disability inclusion, really in three ways to employ more people with disabilities, to include people with disabilities, and design and marketing of products and services, and to do business with disability owned businesses. There is not a supplier diversity designation for disability owned business other than service disabled veterans like there are for women owned in eight A and a.m. Hubzone. So Disability In has created a certified disability owned business enterprise designation themselves, and the companies who are members have all agreed to count spend toward those certified disability owned businesses toward their supplier diversity goals. They have 20 plus local chapters, and they have a large annual international gathering. And they do some great things, particularly particularly in that sphere of very large, very large, publicly traded companies. So bless them for what they do.

John Robinson: Yes. And that's all exactly right. And at the time they were growing, we were growing. We had taken on the challenge of being the, the NY or disability in New York. But as we grew, we really wanted to focus more on technology and technology as a catalyst for opportunity. So we we started thinking about using our jobs board, which we had up mainly because of those businesses that were members they wanted. They had wanted to post jobs on our website and recruit. And so we realized that was a better opportunity for us to utilize technology. And so somewhere around 2018, we started having conversations with Syracuse University. Syracuse has a big information technology school. I'm a graduate of Syracuse. I still at the time had been on their alumni board. They came to us and asked us if they could use a capstone project in their grad school program to do something meaningful in the disability space. And what what could we use? And so that was a lot to unpack. And I realized what I really wanted to do is to see if we could use technology to do a better job in matching people to employment.

John Robinson: We, you know, we we in the disability space have lived and know about the unemployment or underemployment rate of, of our community. And so that's always been in the back of my mind. So we took the students we started working with IBM Watson. We quickly transitioned to Microsoft Azure. And Microsoft then gave us after many conversations, gave us an AI for good grant and then a second round of it, really to see if we could use gen AI to understand job descriptions and understand people. You know, now you think about where we are with ChatGPT and OpenAI, and it's also easy. Well, it wasn't easy five years ago as we were starting to build this. So we did. We built it, we broke it, built it again. And so now where we are today is if you upload the a resume PDF of your resume you or PDF for a LinkedIn profile, which is actually easier. You are the you have the beginnings of your profile. You answer a few questions, and then we pretty much instantly match you to jobs that are in our system. So this is what we've been working on.

Dr. Kirk Adams: You know, and that's a that's uploading to our ability.

John Robinson: Yeah. It's our ability. You can find the the login button and our, our ability jobs. It's at the top of the screen if you're navigating our system is also built by someone who's 100% blind. So it better be accessible inside. I laugh because I know it is and we care very deeply about it being functional and usable and that the job recommendations do the right thing and that you to jobs. So this is what we've been working on and it's been growing. We have about 15,000 people per month coming to our website, and we're really proud of that. But we've also been kicking around other ideas. And Kirk, this is. This is part of, you know, the the open exploration of entrepreneurship here. You know, we've thought about the written language, what's written in job descriptions. We tinkered with an ableist language filter to filter out ableist language. But that kind of it can be done through existing systems. So then we started considering what else could we do? And one of our clients asked us, would we be interested in taking a look? Could we use our matching system to tweak it a little bit and match businesses owned by people with disabilities? Those adobes that we were talking about with disability in with purchasing opportunities, could we sort of turn it on its head and reverse it and really provide meaningful contracting opportunities through technology? One of the frustration points that I've had as as Adobe, I'm proud of my Dhoby logo and the work that we've done way back with the US BLM.

John Robinson: But the truth is, you don't get a lot of contracting opportunities. And it seems to me that's that's a sticking point. So I thought very deeply about the client asking us that. I ignored it. Then I talked to Karthik Sahni, our chief technology officer, talked about it with him again, ignored it, but it came around to the idea that at least we want to ask the community. One of the things that we did the first time in building the job platform on the job matching system is we just built it. We were very much if you build it, they will come you know, sort of mentality. And we did. And people have come this time though before I invest dollars before I get if I get investment dollars on this, I want to know what the community thinks. So we sent out an email blast to existing disability owned businesses that we know and ask them to fill out a survey. You know, I understand it's problematic for people to fill out surveys at times. And I understand also we can all be distrustful of that and me included.

John Robinson: But I wanted to know what other people thought. And I will say as I sit here today on July 7th, Kirk, we have about 40 respondents and that's about 9% of the emails. So I guess on that standpoint from my old advertising days, that's not too bad, right? What I will say is, except for two, they all want this system and they they want we did a word cloud and the words that came up were contracting matching business opportunity. Yeah. And so, you know, the first time I jumped, I jumped into the pool, built jobs ability, built the matching system, did it because I thought it was the right thing to do. This time, I try to be a little bit smarter about how we spend our time but I also want to then then do some fundraising around it, because we want to be able to, to fund it in other ways. And if we're going to do that, then we need to know how the community feels. And so that's that's where we are right now. And it's exciting. It's daunting. But I, I don't want to just be an entrepreneur that builds a widget. I want to be an entrepreneur that helps helps our community, people with disabilities. And I think that's what this thing can do.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. Look, I know, I know, you're teaching. Teaching about disability and entrepreneurship. And I'd like to say a few things about it and get your your reflections, so. Sure. When I did my dissertation, which was published in 2019, it was an ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations. So I interviewed a lot of really cool blind people working at a lot of companies whose names we all know and learned a lot about what they saw as the factors that led to their success and also their frustrations and disappointments. But in doing the literature review, you know, you you mentioned the unemployment and underemployment earlier. So of those of us with significant disabilities, which would include you, you and I only 35% of us are in the workforce. And that's about half of the general population. So we're working age adults, about 70% in America are working. Yeah, about 35% of us. And we're in a much narrower band of occupations. And at least in the blindness community, over 50% of us who are working work for the government or nonprofits. So beautiful places to work. But your, your, your income has ceilings in those settings? Yes. Of the 70% of the general population are that are working, 12% are self-employed. So if we can use a blunt instrument saying self-employed equals entrepreneurship, there's about 12% of the general population for us with significant disabilities. The 35% of us who are working, only 6% of us are self-employed. So only about half as many self-employed folks percentage wise. And it's really interesting. I had had met a professor, a blind Professor Wilson, who was based in London, and he studies disability and entrepreneurship, and he was coming out to Seattle for the Academy of Management International Conference in 2021.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And asked me to be on a panel which which I did, and then I have been connected with this group of scholars who study disability and entrepreneurship. And it's it's really fascinating because to have a successful employment situation and to be able to thrive in employment as a person with an impairment or impairments. The key is the fit between you, your particular characteristics, your impairments and the workplace, the work that needs to be done. The tools that are done need need to be used. So if you are self-employed and creating your own business, you can create a fit. You can design it to work for you. You can design it to use the tools that you want to use. You can design the schedule, the flow to, to work with you and your impairment. So I just see entrepreneurship and disabled owned business as a huge field of opportunity to create more opportunities for us to thrive. That's what that's what I'm interested in creating more opportunities for more people with disabilities to thrive and self-employment. Entrepreneurship. Being a business owner gives some really unique opportunities to do that. Also, these researchers have found that the lived experience of disability allows you to create the strengths and characteristics that are indicators of possible success as an entrepreneur. And those are things like perseverance, grit and resilience and creative problem solving and being able to work in diverse teams and good communication skills and all those things. So what you're doing, what you're endeavoring to do to create a place where disabled business owners, entrepreneurs can match with customers is is essential. And I'd love to get your your thoughts on any of any of what I just just blurted out.

John Robinson: I mean.

John Robinson: I believe in my opinion that you're exactly right. If I look at my personal experience and I was unemployed after I graduated university in 1990, I chose to go into a field of media, a very vain industry. I really wanted to run a TV station. That was what what what I studied to do at Syracuse University. And I interned to do it, a TV station in Boston. Ultimately what I finally did get a job four and a half years after I graduated, and it was in sales. And you talk about problem solving and communication as assets to the disability community. It really that those two elements became the foundation for me to be a successful salesperson. In spite of, you know, being challenged and getting around, you know, at 30 years old, sure, I could jump in the car and and carry a backpack and meet my clients and do the things that the the station managers wanted me to do. But I'm glad I'm not doing it today because I'd have to do it all through. Through this medium, through technology. But I learned a lot about myself, then business, and then I put the two of those together and realize, what did I want to do? And I did it in large part because I was disabled. It really, you know, being disabled really did hone my problem solving skills and my communication and not I don't mean communication, writing, speaking necessarily, but what I do find is to be able to communicate your needs and someone else's needs, and to put those two things together.

John Robinson: A big part of communication is listening. And if you're going to get into sales, you better listen, not speak, so that that's what it did for me. Today? Yeah. Syracuse University is named me a professor of practice for the past two years. A big part of that is to create disability entrepreneur opportunities. Out of that is a class once a year. This past cohort, we had about 50 people signed up. We started with 26, we ended with 20. And to a person and this this was interesting to me, to a person, they were all disabled and they all wanted to carve out their niche to help the community of people with disabilities. And it gets to what you were saying that that's that's a strength. If we in the United States could harness this strength and and support and cultivate, we could create more, more Our solutions. And that's really what a business is. It's the solution to a problem. And so I, I'm, I was really, really And buoyed. Powered. Excited. Use whatever adjective you want or misuse everyone you want that that there is this community out there and that it's it needs something. And jobs ability has been great to help people find jobs, but, you know, I want to do more with it. And. Yeah, and that's what we're here for.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, I'd like to talk to you about customers a little bit. So we talked about disability and taking nothing away from what they're doing there. They are there to serve their members and provide value to the members. And their members are corporations, and they're large corporations, and they have the needs of large corporations. So it's it's a very rare disability owned business that is going to be able to meet the specific the supplier needs of a major corporation. So when I think about customers, I think about the clients I work with primarily, which are kind of 50 to 200 million techie and a fast growing, privately held. You know, they're not disability in numbers or they're never going to be. And individuals I encounter now, they would be thrilled as they work on disability inclusion in their workforce because that's what I work with. They want to be able to, to find vendors suppliers, disability owned businesses. And then I think about individuals and you know, many of the disability owned businesses honestly start out as kind of cottage industries. And a cottage industry is not what ExxonMobil or Boeing or Microsoft is going to be doing business with. So, so I, you know, as I, as I contemplate this project that you outlined to me several months ago, I get increasingly excited about how a truly dynamic engine can be created to bring supply and demand together with through the particular lens of disability owned business and disability disabled entrepreneurs. So I know we need more disabled business owners to fill out the survey, and you can kindly tell us how to do that. But then I'd love to get your thoughts on who who you see the customers being.

John Robinson: Yeah, that's such a great, great question. You know, I, I'm going to answer the answer it with the with this. I know myself really well, Kirk, if if this system hadn't been in place right when I started our ability and I had seen a contract opportunity out there for massive web design or or a commercial production or generative AI. I would have done everything I could to expand our business to get that contract, but I didn't. You talk about cottage industry, and you're exactly right. A lot of times we start this because we need to. But then. Then the element is What if we can? What if we had a contract opportunity and I didn't see those out there? I had to forge it. I had to make it happen. I didn't see it. And so I do believe if we could create a a micro universe of our community and business opportunities, we could also expand the imagination of the community of people with disabilities beyond what they're thinking about today. And I'm talking about those with businesses, And that's I keep coming back to that. You know, my three in the morning where I'm. Where I'm awake. I'm not sleeping. These are the things that I think about. Yeah. And then on the other side of it is if you are a Lowe's, CVS, Pfizer and I'm, I'm picking on our, our long term corporate supporters. But if you're one of them and you know that there are 12 businesses out there that can can send you information and maybe get a contract, that's one thing. If you know that there are 1200 potential, that's a that's a whole other, other opportunity.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And I think the other opportunity here is to understand what the customers see as their future needs, so it can help to shape what businesses people with disabilities create or focus on. So so I'd love to do. I'd love to do a research project where we identify a couple of ideal customer groups and we do some ethnographic research, and we talk to their people who are involved in planning and strategy and find out what. What do you see? What do you see your spend focusing on five years from now? Ten years from now, what are you going to be buying? You know, and and that would be information that would be so helpful to not only current people, business owners with disabilities, but those who are contemplating going into business or starting that entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial journey to have some indicators of which direction ahead.

John Robinson: We probably could work with Syracuse University to to do that survey or that that study, I said, surveying the top of my head. We could do that. So that's something that I'll I'll put on my to do list and talk with people at the university, because one of the things that they asked us to do is what kind of research should we do out there? Yeah, so.

Dr. Kirk Adams: That would be vital.

John Robinson: I agree, I think it would be vital and I would pull you in on that because I'm going to need other experts beside myself. I can't, I can't and don't want to do it alone anymore. I think one of the, you know, I had a lot of vim and vigor when I was 35 and then when I started this at 40. The reality is, at 56, I want to build true partnerships and lasting partnerships. Right. That's I feel a lot different about it today. And so I believe we could get that pulled together through the university and their and their, their mechanisms. Yeah. And and some of our friends.

Dr. Kirk Adams: That would be exciting work. So I this half hour just flew by. I will reserve the right to ask you back to talk as the platform develops to match disabled business owners and customers. Do you have a name? Do you have a working title?

John Robinson: No.

Dr. Kirk Adams: For that project.

John Robinson: It'll be some version of our ability. Jobs is one of those, too. I really don't.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay.

John Robinson: This. That. Probably the smart thing to do would just be an element of jobs ability, but I just don't. I don't know, this time, I don't know.

Dr. Kirk Adams: No worries, no worries. But if people want to get in touch, people are listening to this and get enthused and want to be engaged. How do people get in touch?

John Robinson: Yeah. Please do get in touch with us. There's our ability. There's about three different places you can connect with us on there. There's a couple of form fields that HubSpot helps us with. You can also email me at info at our ability. Com. That's the simplest way. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm certainly all over LinkedIn. So really those are the the Instagram as well. Those are the best four ways. And I would love feedback. I, I really I really do now understand. If you email me about this, I'm going to send you back the the survey because we do want to increase our survey results. But but yeah, I would love feedback because that helps us craft what we want to build. And again, this time we want input from the community before we jump into it. And I'm glad we jumped the last time or I wouldn't have done it, but right this time it's a little bit different.

Dr. Kirk Adams: You're you're older and wiser.

John Robinson: I don't older. Yes.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, for for me, it's it's Doctor Kirk adams.com is my website. Same, same. There's ways to get in touch there. And it's Kirk Adams, PhD, on LinkedIn, which I'm on every day. And thank you for listening to podcast by Doctor Kirk Adams. John, we'll have you back in about six months when you have a name for the platform and it's up and running and for everyone listening. Philip. Survey. Share it with other people with disabilities who either are business owners or contemplating becoming business owners entrepreneurs. And with that, let let's go create a lot of opportunities for people with disabilities to thrive.

John Robinson: Excellent.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Thanks, John.

John Robinson: Thank you.

Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

👉 More: About This Webinar that took place on June 26, 2025 live on LinkedIn.

📽️ Recording: Available for free on YouTube here.

TRANSCRIPT:

Podcast Commentator: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Welcome, everybody. I am Doctor Kirk Adams, and this is my monthly live streamed webinar. And it is Supercharge Your Bottom Line through Disability Inclusion. And today we have a really special focus on technology. And my dear friend and colleague Aaron Di Blasi is here with us today. So say hi Aaron.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Hello, everyone. How are you?

Dr. Kirk Adams: And I'll ask you. I'll ask Aaron to talk a little bit about himself and what he does before he he teaches us, teaches us a thing or two. But but the focus today is really on technology and use of technology as blind people and how important and essential it is. And in preparing for this meeting, I thought of a couple things. One is the concept of the expanded core curriculum, and that is a framework that was developed by Doctor Phil Kaplan along with the American Foundation for the blind. And I had the honor and privilege of serving as president and CEO of American Foundation for the blind. Afp for a time. And I got to know Doctor Phil Hanlon, and I actually recruited him to the board of directors for the Seattle Lighthouse for the blind when I when I was in serving as the leader here. But the expanded core curriculum is is something that blind kids in school are made aware of at some point where they're told, okay, blind student, you need to learn all the things the sighted kids learn and these nine other things that you're going to have to work longer and harder than your sighted classmates, because you're going to need to learn orientation and mobility so you can travel independently and safely. You're going to have to learn self-advocacy, because you are going to have to advocate yourself in ways that your sighted classmates will not have to. You're going to have to learn to access print materials and alternative formats, whether that's braille, large print, magnification, audio, and you're going to have to master assistive technology.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And that's what we're going to talk about a bit today. It also made me think of my dissertation. I have a PhD in leadership and change from Antioch University, and employment is my passion for people with disabilities. People who are blind in particular, as only 35% of us are in the workforce. About half of the the percentage of the general population, working age adults. And that means there's a lot of poverty and a lot of bad things happen. Poverty. So all all the bad health, health outcomes, the substance use disorders and depression and you know, all, all, all the bad things. So I personally and professionally and academically try, try to address that by creating opportunities for blind people and people with other disabilities to thrive in employment settings. So my dissertation is it's called Journeys Through Rough Country and ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American corporations. So. So I interviewed a lot of really cool blind people who self-identified as successfully employed. And when I asked them what what what's your what's your metric for success? They all said money to to earn an appropriate salary, to have the freedom and flexibility to make spending decisions and have the resources to to do the things I want to do in life. And then I ask people, what were the factors that allowed them to be successfully employed in these large American corporations? So it was it was the usual usual suspects Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, meta, AT&T, Chase Bank, Boeing.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Et cetera, et cetera. And there were some themes that emerged. There were there were eight success themes and family support was one being involved in some sort of team activity as a youth, like on a sports team or a choir or a debate team or something like that. A sense of agency, a strong internal locus of control where people felt that they could create their own pathways forward. If they had obstacles, they could figure out how to overcome those obstacles. And a lot of folks trace that back to some pivotal experience or experiences, and a lot of them that were outdoors, like rock climbing or skiing or horseback riding or something that that that gave people the feeling in their bones that they could, could do what they wanted to do in their lives, as opposed to a strong external locus of control where you feel stuff. Stuff happens to you and there's there's not much you can do about it. And, you know, my retina is detached. When I was five and I became blind very suddenly. And I went to a school for blind children first, second and third grade at the Oregon State School for the blind. And they very intentionally gave me some of these things.

Dr. Kirk Adams: That these successfully employed blind adults said led to their successes. One one was blindness skills. So I learned to read and write Braille. There was no question I had to do that because I couldn't see. And I learned how to travel confidently with a long white cane as a six year old. And I learned how to type on a typewriter. It would be keyboarding today, but they taught us how to type in first grade. So when we were ready, we could go into public school and be successful, which I, which I did on fourth grade. The the other thing they gave me along with my family, was high expectations of the people I interviewed for my dissertation. Often commented on that the school. If blindness was your only disabling condition, then you were expected to be at grade level. My parents were both teachers. My dad was a high school basketball coach. They they didn't want to see anything less than an A on a report card. They expected us to do chores and be involved in athletics and school activities. And so I was given that gift of high expectations. And, you know, unfortunately a lot of kids with disabilities aren't in that situation. They're born into families like I was. I had no experience with people with disabilities. And maybe in a school that doesn't have much of an experience. So sometimes there's there's oftentimes there's misconceptions and misperceptions about our capabilities. And you know, sometimes those low expectations get it Internalized.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And then the other thing I was given was what I mentioned before. That's that strong an internal locus of control. And they did that on purpose. Now I know. You know, they took us backpacking Three Sisters Wilderness Area and horseback riding up in the snowfields on Mount Hood. Buildings, you know, snow forts out of giant snowballs and and climbing around in the tide pools on the Oregon coast looking for sea anemones and, you know, climbing trees and making tree forts and, you know, falling down and skinning our knees and bumps and bruises and things that all little kids get. So I was given all those things and then back, back to the dissertation, one of the and reflecting back on the expanded core curriculum, one of the success factors I won't mention was the mastery of technology. And so they talked about the fact I need to be able to use the tools everyone else uses at my workplace just as well as they can. And that means I have to learn how to use assistive technology, and I have to be a master of assistive technology. And I will confess, I am not a master of of any technology. I grew up with a slate and stylus. I still have one in my briefcase. I've got a Perkins Brailler here. I do have a I use a Braille sense Android based tablet with a refreshed Braille display.

Dr. Kirk Adams: I have a 80 character, 80 character, brilliant braille display on the desk in front of me, attached to my laptop. I have a Braille embosser behind me. I have an iPhone with VoiceOver, but I am. I'm scratching the surface of what's available to us. And the people I interviewed for my dissertation were all masters. They needed to be in order to achieve what they achieved and rise to the levels they had in their corporations. So we We have so many tools available to us. It's sometimes overwhelming. There are many people. Many people. Wonderfully. Valiantly. Thank you, thank you. Trying to create new technologies that will accelerate our inclusion into all aspects of society, education and leisure and employment. Different people favor different things. People adopt different things. But I will I will say one thing I understand to be true is we all need to learn how to harness. I and I've, I've started. I used ChatGPT. I have it on my lap desktop. I have it on my phone as an app. They're linked together, which is cool, and it's starting to learn me as I write and add content. I am learning a lot from Aaron to see who has been guiding me and harnessing the power of AI in certain ways. Again, I'm I'm really scratching the surface. And Aaron asked me maybe 6 or 7 weeks ago. Are you are you using advanced voice mode? Chatgpt. And I said no. What's that?

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I screamed.

Dr. Kirk Adams: I said, you're you're missing the screamed. You're missing the boat, my friend.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well, I just knew you would get the most value out of it for sure. Yeah, so?

Dr. Kirk Adams: So Aaron and I thought it would be a good idea to spend some time on this monthly live stream webinar talking about that particular Resource, and I'm going to turn it over to you, Erin. And you know, ask you first to spend a few minutes to talk about what you do, what my solutions does, and your involvement, engagement with our community. And then I'll, I'll let you take take it from there, as you will. So I'm handing the talking stick to Aaron Di Blasi.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Thank you very much. Hello, everyone. Good afternoon. It's a pleasure to be here, doctor Adams. Thank you for having me. Just a bit of background about myself. My name is Aaron Di Blasi. I am the senior project management professional for a digital marketing agency out of Cleveland, Ohio that I founded in 2004 by the name of Main Vault Solutions. During that time, we encountered a man named Larry Lewis and Dean Martin now, who were starting a newsletter by the name of Top Tech Tidbits. And we worked with them for 17 years to bring top tech tidbits to the access community. And after 17 years, Larry stepped away and my company, my vault, decided to take it on and try to fund it. So I asked them my involved the board, if they would give me two years to fund it, and we were able to do it in about a year and a half. So anybody who reads that newsletter knows, you know, what we've done and how we've done it. In November of 2022, we spun off a second newsletter because the information that we were getting was so robust that it was starting to move away from assistive technology a little bit, which blind people did not appreciate because that's what they come to top tech tidbits for.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So we spun off a new newsletter called Access Information News. And people will say to me, well, what's the difference in the news between tidbits and access information news? And then, as a tidbit, stays true to its focus of assistive technology, whereas Access Information News now covers medical breakthroughs legal cases and opinion editorials. You know, basically what blind people in the community think about certain products because they were kind of starting to clog the other newsletter. And then in 2025, we spun off a third newsletter from Top Tech Tidbits, which was AI weekly. And that's just because of the wealth of AI information that is now flowing through the community. Top tech tidbit still maintains a section which is specific to AI for assistive technology, which readers really appreciate. We get a lot of feedback on that every week. These are our primary contributions to the assistive technology community, is just stewarding these newsletters and kind of keeping them alive for the sake of the community. We don't own them. No one makes any money out of them. The community owns them, you know. We're very proud of that. Doctor Adams is very proud of that. He's a sponsor of Access Information News as well.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So that's kind of my place in everything and how I overlap with assistive technology and artificial intelligence. On a personal level, I've been coding since I was seven years old. I got my first Tandy from a Radio Shack in the mall, and I brought it home, and I learned the basic coding language, and that was the first coding language that I learned. I've learned probably 13 or 14 more since then, which is all wonderful, but today doesn't mean much because I does a lot of that coding. So if you've heard the term vibe coding, that's a lot of what we do today, which is not really true in traditional coding. I am an engineer by degree, so I've been doing coding for a long time. I've been doing artificial intelligence long before anyone spoke about artificial intelligence or before it was popular. So I have a deep seated understanding of where assistive technology has evolved into artificial intelligence, and kind of vice versa in a couple of cases, which we can discuss, and hopefully that will open us up to a discussion of advanced voice mode. Today I have a little bit more, but Doctor Adams, do you have anything you wanted to add before we started?

Dr. Kirk Adams: No, no, no, I just I, I will reserve the right as the host of Supercharge Your Bottom Line through Disability Inclusion to interrupt you to ask clarifying questions. When you say things that I do not understand so often do.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So that's that's that's fair. Once we start the demo I will have to control both our conversation here in the webinar, along with the conversation that we're going to be having with the bot. So just be patient with me on that. I may have to interrupt her a couple of times just to get her to stop talking. That's okay. Okay, so just to open this up let's talk about ChatGPT advanced voice mode real quick before we get started. Chatgpt advanced voice mode. We're just going to say a VM so that we don't have to take so much time saying it throughout the webinar. Avm is, in my opinion, the breakthrough technology of this decade. If anyone has heard that recently, Sam Altman and Jony Ive have gotten together to announce a product, and there's a lot of talk about what that product might be, and I think we all now know, after the lawsuit yesterday, what that product is. It's a pair of earbuds, we think. But these earbuds, people say, well, why earbuds would I have AirPods? What do I need earbuds for? These are not going to be like any other earbuds that you've ever seen. They're going to be earbuds with advanced voice mode built in to the earbuds. So if you can think about that today, you know, with Jony Ive and Sam Altman have, as we do this demonstration, I think it will give you a much bigger picture of where this can be taken. I currently am talking to this agent about 60 to 70 minutes a day, and that has started over the last 2 to 3 weeks, approximately. One more thing about packaging is if you have a free ChatGPT account, you are able to preview advanced voice mode. It'll give you like five minutes of it and then it'll cut you off. So this is why a lot of people have not seen what advanced voice mode can really do. They kind of open it up. They go, oh, that's really cool. It works like Siri and Alexa should and then it dies. So not a very good.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And what and what's the what's the cost for people who want access to the.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Certainly. Yeah. Well the $20 a month version of ChatGPT will give you one hour a day, a one hour conversation per day, 60 minutes the $200 a month version of ChatGPT, which is what we use here at the vault and what most agencies use, gives you unlimited AVM. So I could talk to AVM 24 hours a day if I wanted to. However, each conversation is limited to one hour due to inference time. So you can, but you can. Once that conversation is over, you can immediately start a new one.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And I'm a $20 a month person.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So right now most people are. Frankly, most people are the free version. You know, they say, I've tried that. I did the five minutes. It was cool. But what am I supposed to do with five minutes a day? Not much honestly. But once this technology moves from the $200 tier down to the free tier, which I think will happen over the next year or two, I think this technology is going to become second to none, especially for blind people, simply because there is no visual interface to it. None. Sound good? You guys ready to get started?

Dr. Kirk Adams: Let's do.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It. Okay, here we go. I'm going to be running this on an iPhone 14 Pro Max, and hopefully everyone can hear us when we get started. Here we go. Hello, ChatGPT.

ChatGPT AVM: Hey. How's it going? What can I help you with today?

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Can everyone hear her in the webinar?

ChatGPT AVM: I can hear you clearly. So I think your audio is good on your side. If you want to double check if everyone in the webinar can hear, maybe ask someone to confirm in the chat. But from what I can tell, you're good to go.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, great. I can hear good. Okay, good. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Appreciate. Okay. We're here in a webinar today with Doctor Kirk Adams. My name is Aaron Di Blasi. The name of the webinar is Supercharge Your Bottom Line through Disability and Inclusion. Can you do a quick web search and tell me a little bit about Doctor Adams, please? Note that sound people.

ChatGPT AVM: There are several notable Doctor Adams out there, like Doctor Jerome Adams, who was the US Surgeon general, or Pat Adams, the physician known for his work in holistic health.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: How about Doctor Kirk Adams. Kirk.

ChatGPT AVM: To Kirk, Adams is a well-known advocate for disability inclusion. He was formerly the president and CEO of the American Foundation for the blind.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And now definitely him. Thank you. Can you find anything about Aaron Di Blasi?

ChatGPT AVM: So Aaron Di Blasi is quite the multitalented professional. He's a senior project management professional at Mindful Solutions, which is a digital marketer.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That's definitely him as well. Thank you very much. Real quick.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Before we did, you did you tell her to say.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That? I did not. She pulled that from the internet professional. No, no, she pulled that from the internet. Yeah. And we can. That's part of what a marketing agency does today, too. It helps you to reflect how she sees you online. Chatgpt. I'm going to give you a list real quick that I want you to remember for later. Are you ready for that list?

ChatGPT AVM: I'm ready whenever you are.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, here's the list. Ten words. Accessibility, mobility, Braille captioning, prosthetic speech input, hearing, vision and communication. Remember that for later. Okay.

ChatGPT AVM: Got it. That's a great list of words, and I'll keep them in mind if you need anything else or want to refer back to them later, just let me know.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Super. Thank you very much. Can you talk to me real quick about how memory works in ChatGPT, especially with advanced voice mode?

ChatGPT AVM: Sure. So normally I don't have memory on my defaults, which means I don't remember details from one conversation to the next, unless you specifically enable that feature in advanced voice mode. It's the same. I can keep track of things during our current chat, but once the conversation ends, I won't retain that information unless you've turned memory down in the settings. So if you ever want me to remember something for future conversations, you'd have to enable that.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: But I have memory turned off currently because here at mind we don't want it having context that we don't want it to have. So but Doctor Adams, for instance, has memory turned on. So anytime he wants to say ChatGPT, remember this, it will remember it. And not just for that conversation, but for all time. So if you go into a new chat, it will remember that information as well. That's the new memory feature of chat GPT, which makes advanced voice mode a whole different animal. To be honest, the true personal assistant in my opinion. Does anybody have anything they'd like to ask the assistant while we're on here?

ChatGPT AVM: That's a great way to put it. Memory definitely adds a whole new layer of personalization and continuity.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And as you can see, she continues to talk even though we are here talking. And she picks up the conversation wherever it ended off at. The most beautiful part is once I start talking, she stops, which is something that Advanced voice mode did not used to allow for. Chatgpt, we're going to do a second list. Are you ready? Ten items?

ChatGPT AVM: Absolutely. I'm ready for the second list whenever you are.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. Ten words. Here they go. Machine learning neural algorithm. Model. Data training. Inference. Automation. Intelligence. Just remember that for later. Okay. Thank you.

ChatGPT AVM: Got it. I've got these ten words noted as well. If you need to refer back to the list or have any questions about them later, just let me know.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Super. Can you tell the audience a little bit about how advanced voice mode benefits blind people specifically?

ChatGPT AVM: Absolutely. Advanced voice mode can be a fantastic tool for blind and visually impaired individuals, because it allows for a more natural, hands free interaction. Instead of having to rely on a screen reader or type out commands, you can just speak naturally and I can respond in real time. This makes it easier to get informations, reminders, or even just have a conversation all without needing to look at a screen.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: How does advanced voice mode compare to popular applications like be my Eyes.

ChatGPT AVM: That's a great question. So Be My Eyes is a fantastic app that connects blind and low vision users with sighted volunteers for visual assistance. It's very much about real time human to human interaction for specific tasks that require care of eyes, like reading labels or navigating a new environment. Advanced voice mode, on the other hand, is more about providing information, answering questions, and assisting with tasks through conversation. They complement each other really well, offering different types of support depending on what you need in the moment.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Would you agree that IRA fits into this category as well?

ChatGPT AVM: Yes, absolutely. Ira is another great service that provides live on demand visual assistance from trained agents. So it's similar to be my eyes in that it provides that human to human connection for tasks that need visual.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Thank you. Can blind users increase the speed of your voice during conversations. Is that possible?

ChatGPT AVM: Yes. Absolutely. Users can adjust the speed of my voice to match. Their preference is all about making the experiences comfortable and accessible as possible, so.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That in settings, we can't do that just by asking you right now to speed up.

ChatGPT AVM: Exactly. You typically adjust the voice speed in the app settings rather than just asking me directly. That way you can set it once and it'll stay at the speed you prefer for the entire conversation, making it super convenient.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Super. What is the duration? How long can I talk to you before a chat ends?

ChatGPT AVM: It's not a super strict time limit on our conversations, but generally if there's a long period of inactivity or if you close the app, the session will end. But you can always start a new conversation whenever you want. And I'm here to help.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So I could keep you open all day, keep my AirPods in, and just talk to you whenever I need to.

ChatGPT AVM: Pretty much yes, if you can keep me open and just chat whenever you need something and I'll be here to help.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Super. Can you give me that first list back, please? Read back those ten items.

ChatGPT AVM: Of course. The first list was accessibility, mobility, Braille captioning, prosthetics, speech input, hearing, vision and communication. Let me know if you'd like me to go over anything else.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Fantastic job. Do you have any closing remarks or recommendations for blind users for AVM before we leave you today?

ChatGPT AVM: Thank you so much. My biggest recommendation would be to explore all the settings and customization options so you can tailor the experience to your needs, and don't hesitate to experiment and ask questions. I'm here to help make things as as easy and enjoyable as possible.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You have definitely done that before we leave. Can I have that second list, please?

ChatGPT AVM: Of course. The second list was machine learning neural algorithm Model data training, inference, automation and intelligence. If you ever need to revisit them again, just let me know.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You have a great memory. Thank you very much. Just hold on for a second. Doctor Adams, did you have any other questions before we turn off the chat?

Dr. Kirk Adams: No, not not about that.

ChatGPT AVM: Okay. Hold on. Anyone?

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Yeah.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Not. Not pertaining to what you just reviewed. The one.

ChatGPT AVM: If anything, comes up.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Thank you very much. Goodbye. Okay, I'm going to shut her off so that we can talk.

Dr. Kirk Adams: There we go. When you and I did our briefing, and I assume you're going to get to this. But you were sure you. You gave me some instructions on how I can open ChatGPT and then open another app or website and and get image descriptions and.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Or video descriptions or.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Video descriptions. And I I've I, I will admit I have not dug into that yet.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That's okay. A lot of people have it, but I'd love to walk through it. Yeah. Okay, let's let's talk about that real quick. Okay. I will do my best to describe this. I'm just going to launch the ChatGPT app. And when I do. I am sorry one second. Okay.

Greg Rogers: A aron, I have a quick question.

Greg Rogers: While we're here.

Greg Rogers: Or you're opening one thing that I'm looking forward to, and it's probably not there yet, but I'd like to be able to say things like compare and contrast. I need to get to this place, compare and contrast prices from my Lyft app, and book the cheapest one or.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay.

Speaker5: Okay, good.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Yes, it will definitely do that type of thing for you. Yeah. You're talking booking. Scheduling. Are these for flights? Scheduling, ordering?

Greg Rogers: Ordering food?

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Greg Rogers: All that stuff. And then. Okay, then actually walk me through the process.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well, if you're if you're looking to do that today, you would be looking at the $200 a month version of ChatGPT. It has a software program called operator. An operator interacts with applications like Instacart, etc. to automate those options for you. So you can say to it, go to Instacart, place this order, go to the hotel, go to the, you know, give me a flight and it will go off and do all of that and then come back. This is what we call a stick. I kind of a different conversation. Yeah. That we're having to I know you understand. We've talked about this too. But that's how it would work today is with an operator. But that functionality is quickly moving down the chain. Yeah. So pretty soon, I think, you know, anybody will be able to use an AI to take over a computer. And once the AI can run the computer, then it can do anything the computer can do, including Instacart, Wikipedia, you know, whatever it's like to you name it. So.

Jeremy Grandstaff: Okay, I'm really sorry. I just wanted to clarify and again, my apologies. I'm in the car, so that's why I keep going on.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I know you're on the move. That's all right.

Jeremy Grandstaff: But did you say it was ChatGPT 2.0? That could do that or some. I thought you said something could do the Instacart thing, but I missed what it was.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It's got to do with how much you pay a month for ChatGPT. That's what it breaks down to. Do you have a free version? Do you have the $20 a month version or do you have the 200?

Jeremy Grandstaff: I got the $20. I got the $20. Yeah, well.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: For $20, you get an hour with her a day. Yeah, you'll get an hour a day to talk to her. Yeah.

Jeremy Grandstaff: That's awesome bud. Thank you.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Yeah. You're welcome. So now for Doctor Adam's request, which was that we are going to start a new chat here. Okay? And when we do. Start a new chat. I'm just going to. For anyone that can see, I don't think it's going to show it. That's okay. Okay. At the bottom of the interface, whenever we start an advanced voice mode chat, we get this bubble that is present in the center of our phone, and it fluctuates as she talks. Below this interface are three dots, which you will generally find on a screen reader as more, more. And when you hit these three dots, you're going to see three options upload photo, take photo and share screen. And share screen is what Doctor Adams is talking about. This is the incredibly powerful feature that both be my eyes. Ira. All of the big apps are taking advantage of today, which is you start what's called a screen broadcast. Now here's what happens when you do that. The advanced voice mode agent is then able to see whatever is on your phone wherever you go. So if it's a web page, it can tell you what's on that web page and read it to you. If it's an app, it can read it to you. It. If you're troubleshooting something or can't find an unlabeled button, it might be able to tell you why, what that button is labeled and what the code is underneath on that particular page on the phone. And this is why this option is so powerful. So you simply select Share Screen and then you. Well, for us, for sighted people, we flick out of that app and go into another app, and the advanced voice mode conversation remains active. So we're still talking to her, only she's looking now at whatever is on our screen and can talk to us about it.

ChatGPT AVM: That's a really handy feature, especially for troubleshooting or getting assistance with apps. Great that you can share your screen so easily and get that live feedback. If you need any help navigating that or trying it out, just let me know.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Is that something that everyone would like to see? We can do it real quick. Let's do a share screen.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yes, please.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. Screen broadcast. It says we're going to say start broadcast. Okay. We are now broadcasting. So now I'm going to.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So you're saying start broadcast or you're tapping on something.

ChatGPT AVM: So if.

Jeremy Grandstaff: You.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Tap start Broadcast you cannot speak start broadcast unfortunately. So. So that'll start it.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Yeah. So that's if once you tap on more.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: If you tap on more screen share screen and then start broadcast those start cast.

Jeremy Grandstaff: Okay.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And now we're going to flick out, leave her active and go to a website.

ChatGPT AVM: All right. I can see you navigating to a website. Just let me know what you need help with or.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Let me know what you see. On this web page.

ChatGPT AVM: I see a web page for Sugar Kiss candies. There's a pop up to sign up for updates with fields for email name. And that.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Was good. She caught the pop up. Well go ahead, keep going.

ChatGPT AVM: Sure, below that pop up, I can see some options, like placing an order and making a payment if there's anything you want to.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, great. Hold. I'm going to scroll. I'm scrolling. Hold on a second. I want you to tell me what you see right now. What's on the screen here?

ChatGPT AVM: I see some product images of chocolate covered Oreos. They look really colorful with rainbows.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Continue.

ChatGPT AVM: All right, So as you scroll further, I can see more details about the different toppings and the pricing for each treat. Let me know if you want to take a closer look at any of them, or if you need any more.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So you were able to see everything that as I was scrolling, or are you only able to see when the web page stops?

ChatGPT AVM: I can actually see everything as you scroll. So I'm following along in.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Oh that's amazing. I didn't know that until today. I just learned something myself. That's fantastic. Okay. All right. What are the price of the Oreos? Can you tell me?

ChatGPT AVM: Sure. The Oreos with the rainbow sprinkles are $2.25 each. And the plain ones are $2 each.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: What do I have to do to place an order?

ChatGPT AVM: To place an order, you can tap on the place and order button that was at the top of the page, and that should take you through the steps to select your treats and complete your purchase.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Wow. Incredibly helpful. So if I pull up a photo, you'd be able to look at that as well, right?

ChatGPT AVM: Yes, absolutely. If you open a photo on your screen, I'll be able to see it and help you out with anything you need related to that photo as well.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: How about a video? What if I pulled up a video? Would you be able to see that video and describe it as well?

ChatGPT AVM: Yes, I can also see your video if you play it on your screen and I can describe what's happening in real time. So feel.

Jeremy Grandstaff: Free.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. Last question. If I turn on my camera and point my phone at something in real time, will you be able to see that and describe it as well?

ChatGPT AVM: Yes, exactly. If you turn on your camera and show me something, I'll be able to see it and help you out by describing what I'm seeing.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So you could tell me what's in my fridge, or you could tell me what's in my medicine cabinet if I needed to know.

ChatGPT AVM: Exactly. If you point your camera at your fridge or your medicine cabinet, I can help you identify what's there and give you any details you need.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It's excellent. You've been very helpful. Thank you again. Okay.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Aaron and ChatGPT. Let's let's describe a photo of video and what your camera.

ChatGPT AVM: Sees if you.

Dr. Kirk Adams: See some. Here are some examples.

ChatGPT AVM: For assistance with anything else. Just let me know. Have fun exploring all these features.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. Okay. Hold on one second. Let's see what we got here.

ChatGPT AVM: All right. I'm here for it. Just let me know what you're trying out, and I'll do my best to help you. With what?

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, I've pulled up a photo. Let me know what you see.

ChatGPT AVM: I see a photo of a package of lamb. It's a bonus lamb roast. And I can see the label.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Excellent. I just purchased it yesterday. Can you let me know how long I'd have to cook it in the oven based on the instructions on the package.

ChatGPT AVM: I don't see specific cooking instructions.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: No. I want you to give me instructions. I know they're not specific. You create them. Look them up, please.

ChatGPT AVM: To cook your boneless lamb roast. Preheat your oven to 425°F. Place the lamb in a racing pan. Season it well and roast it for about 15 minutes at that high temperature.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: What if I want a slow braise? I usually do 4.5 hours of 300.

ChatGPT AVM: That sounds like a great method. Slow. Braising it at 300 degrees for about 4.5 hours will definitely make it super tender.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Excellent. Thank you very much. Okay, we're going to move on to the next item now. So we're flicking out. We are going into our camera.

ChatGPT AVM: All right. Sounds good I'm here and.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay my camera is open. Can you let me know what you see?

ChatGPT AVM: I see a tall green plant with long, slender leaves. It looks like it's indoors.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And you know what kind of plan it is?

ChatGPT AVM: It looks like a type of palm. Possibly a parlor palm.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Or is it real or fake?

ChatGPT AVM: It looks pretty realistic, but I think it might actually be artificial. The leaves look perfect and uniform, so I'm guessing it's a profile.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Excellent. You've been wonderful. Thank you very much, ChatGPT. We'll be back with you. And that's that. Okay.

Jeremy Grandstaff: I got to ask, can you do a video?

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Can I do a video? I don't have one.

Jeremy Grandstaff: I know that's a tougher answer. Yeah, okay.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I just don't have one ready. Well. Hold on. Can we do. Let's see. Can we go to YouTube? Maybe. Let's see if it'll do a video. Yeah, I would love to see it do a video. Okay.

Greg Rogers: Aaron, while you're trying to sort of pull that, by the way, my name is Greg Rogers, by the way, out of Kansas City. Aaron and Kirk. You guys know me, but for anyone else on the call, I do accessibility and interested in product development. Have other tech ventures. Also have a business major minors in music and sight. That's just a little bit about me, but one. One question I have is so the screen sharing stuff is pretty awesome. Is there stuff where, you know, if there's an inaccessible website chat and you say, hey, is there some type of submit button or is there some type of thing? Can you fill this in for me with the appropriate information? Because it's not, you know, because I can't activate control.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So you're talking about troubleshooting accessibility issues using AVM. I have tried to a little bit myself and here's what I'll say. If you speak to it properly, it not only sees what you're scrolling through in the way it sees the code in the background. So it can tell you can say, is this button labeled, is this button not labeled? And it depending upon the code and how they've locked down, sometimes they can see it and tell you what the button is labeled or where it's at, or why it's not labeled and how to click it. I've had a little bit of success troubleshooting that way just a bit, you know? But is there anything is there anything out there on it? I've read nothing so far.

Dr. Kirk Adams: But as far as actually writing in an edit box, I'm.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Oh. I'm sorry. What do you mean, writing? What do you mean, writing in an edit?

Dr. Kirk Adams: Oh. So your credit card number, your name, your address on a form.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. I'm sorry. Explain to me where this is at.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Can ChatGPT actually perform the function of, oh, paying for.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Something for you and filling in your information? Okay. Again, he's moving to the we're talking about operator, which is something that we're not talking about today.

Speaker5: It's it comes back to agent again. Okay.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That means you have to have an AI agent that takes over the computer. The AI agent cannot place Instacart orders. It cannot itself book flights. It cannot itself book hotels. All of that has to be done identically through the computer by the AI taking over the machine, and that is done using operator or other things that do the same thing. But we're just not really talking about that today.

Dr. Kirk Adams: All right.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Thank you. That's all. Yeah.

Jeremy Grandstaff: Okay.

Speaker5: Sorry, Aaron.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: No no no no worries. No, I don't I don't mind at all. I just don't want to clog it with too much.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Greg and my family. We say no, sorry. No sorry.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Yeah. Okay. Let's see. Oh, why are we having trouble? Let's get us a let's see here. Okay. We're on YouTube. What do we have? Let's play something nice for the webinar. $30,000, robot. Oh, no. Here we go. Let's do this.

YouTube Video Audio: It's been a fun week.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay, okay. Stop talking. All right. Let's we're going to here's what we're going to do. We're going to go to ChatGPT. We are going to start a new conversation. So you may hear her three dots. Share. Screen. Start. Broadcast. Confirm. Start. Broadcast. We are now broadcasting looking out. And we are now going to go to YouTube. And we're going to play the Matt Wolf video. Chatgpt, are you there? It does not look like this is working. Let's see if she's there

ChatGPT AVM: I can see and.

YouTube Video Audio: Have her video model.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Can you see the video? Can you hear what he's saying?

YouTube Video Audio: The model is a huge leap.

ChatGPT AVM: Yes, I can see the video playing and I can hear what he's saying. Everything seems to be working perfectly. Let me know if you need any help with it.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Great. Can you describe the video and what he's talking about, please?

ChatGPT AVM: Sure, the video is about GPT five and some new AI video tools. The presenter, Matt Walker, is talking about advancements in in AI and how these tools are becoming more useful and generating a lot of interest. Let me know if you want more detail.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Can you tell me more about Matt?

YouTube Video Audio: Sure. And then once that image is.

ChatGPT AVM: Matt Wolf is a content creator who focuses on technology, AI, and digital tools.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Great. Do you know how long the video is?

YouTube Video Audio: Images of a wolf howling at a moon.

ChatGPT AVM: Yes, the video is about 24.5 minutes long.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: So where are we at right now in the video?

YouTube Video Audio: Which is that it generated right now.

ChatGPT AVM: You're about a couple of minutes into the video. The presenter is currently talking about some AI generated visuals and how these tools work.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Are captions on or.

YouTube Video Audio: Off, and it will create four different videos.

ChatGPT AVM: Right now it looks like the captions are turned off. If you want to turn them on, you can just tap the caption button on the video player.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: What if I can't see? What do I do.

YouTube Video Audio: Then is you could actually extend the.

ChatGPT AVM: You can't see the button. I can help guide you. Usually the caption button is in the top right corner of the video player, or sometimes in the settings menu. Just let me know if you need more help finding it.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Are you able to tell me what the name of the button is within the code on the page.

YouTube Video Audio: We can see up here. It opens up our prompt box.

ChatGPT AVM: I can't see the actual code behind the page.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: That's YouTube.

YouTube Video Audio: For you.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Okay. Thank you. Chair GP2. We're going to exit at this point.

ChatGPT AVM: Yep.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And we are out there in the.

Dr. Kirk Adams: This is Kirk. And you know, I don't even know enough to know what to ask.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Sure. No, of course it's a brand new technology. No one does. I didn't either when I when I first encountered it, but that's what's special. And what is so great to build on is I'm sure you'll have your own questions. Jeremy will have his own questions, Greg. We'll have his own questions.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, back to kind of the opening framing.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Sure.

Dr. Kirk Adams: As people with visual impairments. Sometimes we're in disabling situations because our impairment does not allow us to interact with the environment. Whether it's a built environment, a digital environment, or.

Dr. Kirk Adams: A.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Social environment. And in order to thrive, we want to reduce the number and severity of those disabling, disabling situations as much as possible. So we want to be in situations where our impairment doesn't matter as far as accomplishing what we want to accomplish, whether it be formal or informal. I think that is serious or silly. Yes. So mastering the mainstream technologies and being able to use technology as well as everybody else that doesn't live or characteristics of impairment or better. And that necessitates using our assistive or accessibility technologies with with mastery. And I really appreciate your basically pounding the table and telling me I need to start using.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: I appreciate.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Listening.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Advanced voice mode.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You can pound all you want, but they don't listen. It doesn't matter.

Dr. Kirk Adams: And I will I will be endeavoring to be conscious of incorporating use of this technology into my daily activities. And I think it will help understanding how these technologies can support my, my efforts to be in as few disabling situations as possible.

YouTube Video Audio: Agreed.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Agreed. And, Jeremy.

Jeremy Grandstaff: Aaron, thank you very much for catching that. I could not get to the button in this situation. So first of all, I have. One more call to teach you, and I just wanted to say thank you for that. And that goes for both of you, not just Aaron.

Dr. Kirk Adams: There you go. You're breaking up quite a bit. Yeah. Back for now.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: But we got to thank you. I must.

Jeremy Grandstaff: And I was saying that was to both of you, but especially to you, Aaron. So the other comment I had was, did anybody catch that? At one point, ChatGPT said. And I just thought that was kind of fascinating.

YouTube Video Audio: Actually.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Brand new that we can talk about. That's about a week old, she now says. She pauses. She has breaths. And yeah, this is all brand new things that they have done to try to emotionally ties her responses, which I think are amazing, especially the breaths, you know, which it didn't used to have and I didn't realize made it sound very mechanical without the breaths. Yeah.

Jeremy Grandstaff: Well, one of the things that I am gonna. And I love the screen capture, one of the things that I really want to see if I can get it to do is to actually describe, like, those Instagram reels where it's just music and you can't tell. Right. Like that's. Yes, I think exactly.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It's accessible today. Correct. Yeah.

Jeremy Grandstaff: I think you will.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: And I think she will.

Jeremy Grandstaff: Yeah. For he.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Will whichever voice you choose.

Jeremy Grandstaff: Or whatever. Right. It will, it will. Thank you for that.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, so, so glad you like it for sure.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Well, Aaron, let's let's get a little philosophical here for a minute. What I think thinking about the various spheres of life leisure, family, recreation, education, employment and what you know Around the evolution of technology, assistive technologies, accessibility and I. And can you can you do it? Can you do a little theorizing about what might be on the horizon or reflect upon certain dynamics that we as blind people should be particularly conscious of?

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Absolutely. Absolutely. What a great question. Yes. Obviously, I think today is the big indicator advanced voice mode. Watch AVM. Watch it closely. I think it is the best voice model in the world currently. There are others. Google is trying to catch up. I haven't had as good of an experience with them. These tools once. I mean, if you can imagine what you've seen today, I think everyone's really excited with what they've seen. I know the $200 a month is a choke point, and it's intended to be, but at some point, that choke point will be removed and this will be on every single phone, every person will have it. So it just becomes, as the saying goes, with people being very worried about jobs. I will not take your job right now, but someone who knows I will. So think about that. Learn these tools. Be better with these tools than anyone else, so that when that price barrier drops to zero and everyone else is going, oh my God, this is amazing, what do I do? You've already got a workflow built to use it. And as a blind person, that workflow would be beautiful because it's absolutely voice based in my opinion. It's everything that blind people always wanted Amazon and Siri to be. I have listened for 20 years about people complain, and I have 6 or 7 Alexa devices in my house, one in every room, including the bathroom for memory purposes because I add things to lists all the time, even though I'm not blind, I find that very useful and advanced voice mode kind of blends into that, because I can then tap into those lists, link my Amazon account, and talk to ChatGPT anywhere in my house eventually, And for prognostication purposes.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: As I said in the beginning, everyone's wondering what Jony Ive and Sam Altman are up to, what their magic product is going to be. There was a case, a legal case brought against them last week by a company called IO I o instead of their I o. And this company makes earbuds, which makes everyone think that Sam and Jony are trying to make a pair of earbuds. Which kind of solves the hardware portion? I don't think anyone is in question that the software portion is going to be advanced voice mode or some more advanced version of advanced voice mode, such as ChatGPT five, which is supposed to come out this summer. So we can only imagine what you saw today under the hood of ChatGPT five. That would be amazing. That's what's coming. I would definitely focus on AVM if you're able to do so as a blind person and able to get ahead of the pack before the price drops.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Okay. Putting it on my daily work plan. Spend an.

Jeremy Grandstaff: Hour.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: You already do.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Spend an hour with AVM.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Just talk.

Speaker9: To her. That's how you do that every day.

Dr. Kirk Adams: So how can people get in touch with you, Erin? How can they access the three newsletters that that.

Jeremy Grandstaff: Oh, absolutely awesome community.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: Well, you can reach me. The easiest email address to reach me at is publisher at Top Tech Tidbits. Com. You can also look us up at access information, News.com or AI weekly.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Wonderful. And as for me, Doctor Kirk Adams, my website, which Aaron helped me build.

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP: It's a great site.

Dr. Kirk Adams: is www.DoctorKirkAdams.com. So DRKirkAdams.com. I'm also very active on LinkedIn. @KirkAdamsPhD. I will happily talk with anybody who is interested in helping accelerate.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Inclusion.

Dr. Kirk Adams: Of people with disabilities in society and creating situations in which we can thrive as people who are blind and have other disabilities. So thank you. Thank you for those who are live with us today. Thank you to those. Thanks for being with us, everybody. Viewing the archived recording and the final Thursday of every month at 11 a.m. Pacific time, I am here with supercharger auto lines for disability inclusion. Thank you so very much. And we'll see you next time.

Jeremy Grandstaff: Thanks, everybody.

Greg Rogers: Thanks, everyone.

Podcast Commentator: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at. Kirk Adams. Together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening. Keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this episode of Supercharge Your Bottom Line Through Disability Inclusion, Dr. Kirk Adams dives deep into the mind-set and mechanics of building a flourishing life and career without sight. Blending scholarship, lived experience and laugh-out-loud storytelling, the trio unpack what really moves the employment needle for blind talent, and how every company's bottom line can grow in the process. ✅ What You'll Learn ✅ The T.H.R.I.V.E.R.™ Formula-Tools, Handi-capable mind-set, Responsibility, Independence & interdependence, Value, Emotion, Risk-taking-and why it's the "operating system" of the Academy. ✅ How a new Grant Cardone Foundation partnership will fly 100 blind youth (ages 15-21) to Miami for elite leadership & financial-literacy training-at no cost to families. ✅ The power of high expectations and internal locus of control in Dr. Adams' own journey from childhood blindness to C-suite leadership. ✅ Why "enabling is disabling" and how letting kids scrape their knees builds unstoppable adults. ✅ Kristin's forthcoming feature film "Curve Ball"-think Erin Brockovich x Rocky-showing how inclusive Little League changes hearts (and wins championships). ✅ Real-world ROI: why only 4 % of DEI programs include disability and how that's leaving billions on the table (plus the fix). 🎙️ Host Dr. Kirk Adams - Former Lighthouse/AFB CEO, PhD in Leadership & Change, and founder of Innovative Impact LLC. 🎤 Guests Kristin Smedley - TEDx speaker, author of Thriving Blind, mom of two blind collegiate honors grads, and the visionary force behind Thriving Blind Academy. Charlie Collins - Best-selling memoirist (Tripping into the Light), serial entrepreneur and certified Jack Canfield Success Principles trainer. 🌉 Connect & Take Action 🔗 Join the Academy (family membership $97/year): ThrivingBlindAcademy.org SYBL-TDI-05-29-2025-Kri… ✈️ Mentor Program (ages 15-21) - limited to 100 seats; apply now! SYBL-TDI-05-29-2025-Kri… 🎬 Support "Curve Ball" and help rewrite Hollywood's blindness narrative. SYBL-TDI-05-29-2025-Kri… 📅 Register for Dr. Adams' next "Supercharge Your Bottom Line" LinkedIn Live (last Thursday monthly). #️⃣ Hashtags #DisabilityInclusion #BlindEmployment #ThrivingBlind #DrKirkAdams #KristinSmedley #CharlieCollins #GrantCardoneFoundation #THRIVER #AccessibleLeadership #DEI #InclusionMatters #Podcast #Webinar TRANSCRIPT:

Speaker1: Welcome to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, doctor Kirk Adams.

Speaker2: Welcome, everybody, to Doctor Kirk Adams monthly live stream webinar. I am Doctor Kirk Adams and the webinar is titled Supercharge Your Bottom Line through Disability Inclusion. And we really talk a lot about employment and the barriers to employment for people who are blind, and the success factors that lead to successful employment for people who are blind. And I did my doctoral dissertation, which is called Journeys Through Rough Country Ethnographic study of blind adults employed in large American Corporations. And I learned a lot of things that I see emphasized and highlighted by the thriving Blind Academy. And I have the two co-founders of Thriving Blind Academy with me today. So Kristin and Charlie, if you could say hello.

Speaker3: Hey. Good to be here.

Speaker4: Hello. My name is Charlie, and I'm also very grateful to be here.

Speaker2: Great. Great. So my retina is detached. When I was five years old and I went to a school for blind kids first, second and third grade. And I got three things given to me there that later, as an adult researcher, I found were strong predictors of successful employment for blind adults. One was blindness skills. I learned to read and write Braille the same, same time. Sighted kids were learning to read and write print in first grade. I learned how to travel confidently and safely with a long white cane. And I learned how to type on a typewriter so I could type for my teachers. Today it would be keyboarding and using assistive technology. I was also given high expectations and many kids with disabilities that are their families like mine. My parents were in their mid 20s when my retinas detached. They'd never met a blind person before. So many, many kids are born into families who don't have knowledge or experience, and Sometimes they have preconceived notions about the capabilities of people with disabilities, and they have low expectations of their children. And schools sometimes have low expectations of children, and those become internalized. So my school had high expectations. My parents had high expectations. My dad was a they were both teachers. My dad was a high school basketball coach.

Speaker2: They didn't want to see anything less than an A on a report card. And they wanted their kids to be on sports teams and extracurricular activities, etc.. And my school, the school for the blind, had high expectations. There were 120 blind kids K through eight. We were all those of us who didn't have an additional disability, were expected to be at grade level. And then the third thing I got was a strong internal locus of control or sense of agency. So, you know, the internal locus of control, meaning that I control my destiny, I can overcome. I can figure it out. I can be creative. I can solve my problems as opposed to an external locus of control where you have that that terrible feeling. That stuff keeps happening to me and there's not much I can do about it. So I was given those three things, and then when I did my doctoral research, I found out that the blind individuals I talked to who self-identified as successfully employed in large companies, they had those same things. They also had knowledge, skills and abilities that were required for the jobs they were doing. They also talked about the importance of working, being part of teams, either sports teams or choirs or debate teams as teams was a factor that that came out a lot.

Speaker2: Having a company they were working for that had a culture of inclusion, Having a supportive immediate supervisor. And so we I learned a lot about what can lead to success for employment for people who are blind. And as we know, only 35% of us are in the workforce, which leads to a lot of bad things. Poverty. Health disparities mental health disparities, the homeownership disparities, all, all, all kinds of bad stuff. And I got I got pretty clear 30 plus years ago that employment and interesting appropriately compensated career and solve a lot of problems for people. So I've, I've devoted myself really, really to creating pathways to employment. And as, as you may know, I, I was privileged to be the president and CEO of the Lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle, where we employed several hundred blind and deaf blind people and businesses, including. Aerospace. Manufacturing. Advanced manufacturing. I then had the opportunity and honor and privilege to lead the American Foundation for the blind, which was Helen Keller's organization, and moved to New York from Seattle and then D.C. and shortly after I arrived at the office offices at two Penn Plaza next to Madison Square Garden in New York, and where I was able to go sit at Helen Keller's desk, play with her typewriter, which was a really inspirational thing to do if I ever needed a little motivation.

Speaker2: I got a call from a person named Kristin Smedley, and she said, I want to come talk to you, and I'm in Philadelphia and I'm going to get on a train. When will you be in? So Chris, Kristin is not a shy person. And so she came and we talked and formed a great, wonderful collegial relationship in a, in a, in a different thread and narrative. I was introduced to Charlie Collins and spent some time with him in Washington, DC with some other very charismatic positive blind people. And at some point, Charlie and Kristin connected and created the thriving Blind Academy. And so we want to talk about that today. So I thought perhaps, Charlie, if you could talk to us about your life experience as a person with a visual impairment some of the peaks in the valleys and things, things you've learned along the way. And if you could, if you could. This is like writing a novel. This is chapter one. Chapter one is going to lead to the point where you meet Christopher.

Speaker4: The point where I was. What? There.

Speaker2: Where do you meet Kristin? Give us your life story. Until the point in time when you and Kristin connected.

Speaker4: Oh, this is a couple hour thing, right?

Speaker3: I was, like, within reason.

Speaker4: Kristin's nervous. Trust me.

Speaker3: I'm putting my coffee down. Yes.

Speaker4: I first of all, thank you for having us as guests on your podcast, where this is a great privilege. And so, sure, I I'm one of six in my family, and and we as young children I was nine, my sister was five, and, you know, whatever. 11 and 14, all four out of six of us were diagnosed back in the late 1776. It was called juvenile macular degeneration. But you know, now it's Stargardt's. And we were all diagnosed with that in my senior because, you know, we were struggling a bit and my brother wore glasses. He's older. And it just nothing was working and, you know, nothing nobody knew in the state of Connecticut where I lived, still what was going on? We tried different kinds of doctors, and one doctor suggested that we get in contact with this mass pioneer because he goes, it could be something in the eye. We just don't get it. And sure enough, that's what we learned on that day. And then we went back. Kirk, all six of us, eight of us in the big old Plymouth station wagon once a quarter for a year and a half.

Speaker2: Did it have the back, rear facing seat.

Speaker4: Yes. That was the way back.

Speaker2: Yes. That the way, way back. Yes. That was the.

Speaker4: That was my favorite place because you could make faces at the cars behind you.

Speaker3: Exactly right.

Speaker4: And what was another neat thing about those cars was they didn't have catalytic converters. And when you put the back window down, the exhaust came right back in the car. So that could be one of my problems. Anyway we after that year and a half, my thought was, obviously we're doing all this because they're going to fix it. And that wasn't the case on our last day there. They said, thank you very much. There's no more sense coming in. We did not. We don't know of a way to fix this, reverse it, or give you your children back their eyesight. And here's a list of all the things that you can't do in life. I mean, these were researchers, and these people were not even their social skills weren't that great, But what they were good at was, you know, being behind the scenes, working on a cure. But anyway, they gave us, like, we shouldn't really be very careful. Snow skiing. Probably won't be playing sports in school. We'll never drive a car. Wait a minute. Read that again. And all these things and they said in your eyes are going to progressively they're going to get worse. And as we were walking out of there, Kirk, my mom, I heard and I saw she took that piece of paper and she just crumpled it into a ball and threw it in the garbage. And we left, and that was you know, I never went to a blind school, you know, I was, I am, I was, but then at age 13, I was declared legally blind, and I was not accepting. I I never liked it. I was an angry, visually impaired kid. I wanted to be sighted like my friends, I wanted Charlie.

Speaker2: I was totally blind when my retinas detached at age five and in middle school I went to school every day. Don't listen to this, kids. And I put my cane in my locker and didn't use it all day because I didn't want to stand out by having a cane in my hand. So I rather stand out by banging into people in the hallway and groping the walls to find the doorways and things like that. So I also had a lot of resentment as a teenager, so I understand that fully.

Speaker4: Thank you. And that willful blindness, the blindness that we work with in the Academy, the blind spots in the mind and all that, the true nature of the problem which I was beginning to learn, not learn, beginning to experience in my life. The blaming, complaining, the poor me. Why did this have to happen to me? And you know, my brother didn't complain that much. My older sister didn't. My little sister was little and she didn't. But it was it wasn't right. And it wasn't fair and I knew I have some sight. So I knew what I lost. I knew what I because I'd be sitting with my buddy and he'd be like, we were sitting at the bottom of a little ski area, and he we were at the bottom of a hill sitting in his car, and we were just watching the skiers come down. And at the top of the hill, he's like, that person has a blue jacket on and this and that. And I'm like, what? You can see that that. That's insane. I mean, I would have had to walk up and be within five feet to tell back then that he had a blue jacket on and he's like 150 yards away seeing it just fine. So I kind of was like this, how am I ever going to get through life not seeing? But the thing is, my parents were like yours. They didn't care. It wasn't. They didn't care, but they didn't allow me to say I can't because of my eyesight. Even though that story was building in my own mind and, you know, I had to go to all school.

Speaker4: We all went to private schools. None of us went to any blind schools or gotten any special training. I never had a TVI. I think one came in in high school and I said, I don't need you go away because God forbid, like you with the cane. What happens if a student saw me meeting with somebody? They would think something's wrong with me. I tried to hide it as much as I could to, and that was impossible, because I couldn't see the kids coming down the hallway that well, you know, I was lost a lot, and and you know, and that was my journey for up until age 23. You know, I hit the wall a lot, but I. Kirk, I went to work at a at a at a ski area, and I was the guy watching up at the top of the hill, watching the people come up the lift. Not a good job for a legally blind guy. And I'm like, all of a sudden the phone rings and the guy's like, hey why aren't you stopping the lift? I said, why? He's like, well, somebody's getting dragged. And I was like, oh, okay. So I went to the guy and I said, hey, can you take me off the j-bar? And then he put me on the chairlift and then, you know, and then I finally said, I'm visually impaired, I can I sweep. I don't want a position that has to involve me taking skiing to endanger people.

Speaker2: Right.

Speaker4: Yeah. Thank you. That's what I. I didn't say it back then. I was more worried about me than them. And Anyway, so my journey went like that. I built tennis courts. I worked always, but I always said I'm never going to amount to much more than this. But I went to work every day. I worked really hard every day. And my dad the that value, that ethic of, you know, if you want, you gotta, you gotta earn. My dad didn't just give away things. He made us work for it. And thank God for that. I mean, I, I hated him for it. To be honest, but the day that I grew up enough and said thank you for teaching me this, you know Kirk at the at the when I was at the jumping off point in my life, you know, there were many nights I, I laid in bed wishing I would die that night. There were lots of times I thought about how I could take myself out, because I'm. I'm never going to amount to anything. And then, you know, these times I would lay in bed and cry myself to sleep in private. Would never tell anybody that I am full of fear. I don't belong. I don't, you know, I never would have shared that because I didn't share my feelings. And I I got an opportunity at a motorcycle dealership and I panicked.

Speaker4: I didn't know what to do, but I was at the jumping off point. I said yes, but I told the guy that you know what? You're nuts. You're hiring a visually impaired. I am legally blind. What the heck are you thinking? I didn't say that, but that's what I was thinking. And he said, I'm aware that you had something going on with your eyes. Because I, of course, was a customer there. I had a dirt bike and but he said, I believe in you. And then he sat there and in that moment, my eyes teared up. I'm like, oh, great. The guy is, you know, hiring me, and I'm almost crying. I'm like, you believe me, I don't believe in me. One of the biggest principles we work with in the Academy is that belief. It's possible. And belief in yourself. And I didn't have that at all. And he started to let me see that within me. And I called and got help. The state agency came in at 23 years old. Finally, first time and they I got adaptive technology. I got a CCTV, a lamp, I got a computer. And then I started learning it and I skyrocketed and became part owner of that company in a short amount of time. And then I left that company, and then I opened another company and Vision Dynamics, selling adaptive technologies for people.

Speaker4: And I started to here in Cheshire, Connecticut. People would say, why did you start it here? I said, because I can get here. You know, I live in a rural area. There's no transportation really around here, and I need to get to work now. I did ride a scooter a little bit, but we won't go there right now. And anyway, I ran that company for 19 years. We served almost 17,000 people, helped regain their independence and live a better quality of life. Stepping into what is possible with any type of disability, but mostly vision impairment. We did a lot with learning difficulties and things like that too, and that fueled my life because I saw that I have something to give. I am here for a reason. My eye disease. I don't like it, but it doesn't, you know. I accept it. It doesn't mean I need to like it, but I do accept it. And most days I forget that I have a vision impairment and you know. And that's good. You know, I just go about my day and we, you know, our environment, my environments are all set up for success. So anyway, after that business, I sold it. I wrote a book, tripping into the light. I started going around speaking, and I.

Speaker2: Have that book right here on my BrailleSense. I download it from bookshare. It's pretty. It's pretty. It's a page turner.

Speaker4: Yeah, well, we won't go into that. I mean, I turned to alcohol and drugs to to solve the misery of somebody making me blind, you know? And it was it was a solution when I was younger. It worked, but it stopped working. It created more problems. So do not try that path. And if you do, stop doing it because it only gets worse. I you know, I'm grateful that I'm sober and I'm alive and above ground and breathing, you know? And anyway, I got rid of that company. I sold it in 2016. And then you know, I was out helping the industry and doing some marketing things and going all around and getting in front of crowds and sharing my success principles, and well, they weren't mine, but I was repurposing them through my lens and through my story. And then, you know, that wonderful lockdown happened, and I was in a morning a mastermind group, accountability mastermind group, and I started seeing Kristin's block on the thing, and I would zoom in with my magnifying. I'm going. She had, like, a baseball cap on. And, you know, she was a bit like she had no problem talking and sharing whatever in the conversation. But I found out she had two sons that were blind, and I'm like And she said some things that, like you said, she said, you know, it's if it's meant to be, it's up to them. I can't get them successful. I can only teach them certain things, but it really pisses me off what they're up against out there. And I'm like, oh, that's what I've been doing all. And then I'm private teaching her and she's ignoring me. I'm like, now I don't think I like her anymore. Let me try one more time. I'm like, hi, this is Charlie. I'm legally blind. We should connect nothing. I'm like And you know, of course she said, oh, I don't think I ever got him. But anyway, finally we.

Speaker3: Connected.

Speaker4: And then we started our own group with a group of us doing a mastermind, and we did it for a good year and a half or so. Right, Kristin? Through the. I don't like even saying it that time. And we had this brilliant idea. Why don't we join forces, take the thriving blind tripping into the light our life experiences and do what we both know needs to be done. And that we really want to we're passionate about. And we formed the thriving Blind Academy, basically.

Speaker2: End of chapter one.

Speaker3: Okay. I'm done. Chapter one has ended.

Speaker2: Chapter two. Kristin's journey. Until she met Charlie in the master.

Speaker3: Well, you know, it's interesting as I'm sitting here listening and it always reminds me I love doing these interviews with Charlie. Because he reminds me often about how different we are and how different our journeys are. And, I mean, you're going to hear an exact opposite situation. You know, Charlie's mom, who I'm so envious of that she got that diagnosis, crumpled up that paper and threw it in the trash can. And most people right now, in 2025, hear the name Kristin Smedley. And they would expect that I did the exact same thing as Charlie's mom. And then I went out there and took on the world with my boys, and it was completely opposite. So if people are watching, listening and and coming up against a challenge, you know, some of us are able to crumple it up and throw it in the trash can. And some of us cry on the couch for a while. And and what I want you to hear is that no matter where you're starting in all of that, everyone can get to the crumpling it up, throwing it away, and making stuff happen. Because the fact that I started by hearing a doctor say, your son is blind at five months old, my firstborn child, that I had no plans to hear blindness, I he was the first blind person I had ever met, and the only story that I knew about blindness was what? I'm going to date myself here, but I know I'm amongst good company that will know this show from your ages as well. Little House on the Prairie was the story of blindness that I knew.

Speaker2: Old Mary by the fireplace. Well, Laura goes to school.

Speaker3: She sat there and did nothing. Everybody cried when she would wake up in the morning and couldn't do anything. And then what did they do? They shipped her off to a school for the blind. That burnt down. Like, how negative can you possibly get over blindness? So that was, you know, that was the story that Hollywood was selling about blindness. And I didn't hear anything else. So that's what I believed when the doctor said, your son is blind. Now, I like to think I'm pretty on the ball now. And I was pretty on the ball and was highly accomplished at that by the time that moment had happened. But I just couldn't get my head around it. So instead of saying, okay, direct me to all the resources, direct me to direct me, I said, whoa, is he going to play baseball? Like that was all of my hopes and dreams for him. Is he going to play baseball? Will he be playing football for the Eagles? We're a little bit crazy sports fans here in Philadelphia. Self-admitted will he how is he going to excel in school? How is he going to do? And I was envisioning my life and all of my dreams for him. How is he going to go to college? How is he going to get married? And as I'm verbalizing all this, and the movie is running in my mind, and then suddenly running into darkness, the doctor said he's not going to do any of the things that you think he's going to do.

Speaker3: And I said, well, then what am I supposed to do with him? And he said, I don't know, but good luck. So I do give myself a lot of grace now that, that when you start a journey with something so unexpected and the person that is the specialist, you know, the the go to the the knowing it all person knows nothing about it and says, I don't know, but I need you to move out of this office because I have other people in the waiting room. It's why I'm passionate and will work 80 hours a week to get things off the ground, because I don't want another mom to have to start the journey like that. But here's where. Here's where it gets real different from my story and Charlie's story. Not only was I different from his mom, I went home and cried on the couch for three years. I mean, I was, you know, Michael was just one of those human beings that you just are a better person for spending a few minutes with him, and he draws you in. And he's been like that since he was born. He just has this incredible spirit that really impacts people. And I was I was seeing that during the day. But honestly, for three years I was every night praying, blindness away. And every morning I was pissed off that it was still there, because I just did not expect to have to learn about something I had never planned for. I wasn't that kind of person.

Speaker3: I was high achieving. There was high expectations for me in my own life, but I always did the things that I knew I'd be good at, and I didn't really like to try things that were brand new that I had never heard of, let alone had no resources for. And everyone has to remember this is back in the year 2000. There was no Facebook group to go to. There was no Google to see what was happening in the world and find some success stories. With blindness, there was nothing. There was a listserv of a couple of maybe a hundred parents that also had blind kids. And when I went on that listserv, every message was devastation, sadness. It was horrible. It was the most horrible reading I had ever done for two weeks. So I was praying this away, pissed off every morning. And then when I was expecting my Mitchell, my second child, three and a half years later. Because to be perfectly honest, you know, if you look at if you look at families mine and Charlie's are very different to have more than one blind child, most people get a blindness diagnosis and they never have another baby. And I was first of all, I'm from a really big family, so I could not imagine having an only child. And I am a research nerd. I mean, I researched with people I was calling people that were only children helped me get my head around this. But what it really boiled down to, and I'm not exactly proud of this, but it is what it is.

Speaker3: I figured a second child, if Michael had a sibling, he'd have a built in friend because I couldn't fathom how he was going to make friends if he wasn't going to be on sports teams like I was. If he wasn't going to be in school like I was. Where were his friends going to come from? So I was going to I was going to give him one. And then I also thought, you know what? There's no way for three and a half years I've been horrible at this diagnosis. So there's no way that the God I believed in would send me another one and screw that up, too, right? Like no way. And I also figured it was Leber's congenital amaurosis was our diagnosis. So I looked that up and it was a 25% chance. And I'm like the delirious optimist. There's a 75% chance that we got nothing going on, right? So right before Mitchell was born, I woke up one morning and the math major in college, Kristin, came to the table that morning and said, whoa, 25% is like a really big chance. And I've got this feeling we're going to deal with this a second time. And you want to talk about my ugliest of cries and my most horrific of prayer moments. It was a full on tantrum that I was having that morning because I'm like, there's no way I could do this again. And what kind of a God would, would do something like that to a child once and then and then a second child.

Speaker3: And I couldn't even get out of my room that morning. I got to the end of my bed, and that's all depressed and sad I was. And then I could hear Michael making his way down the hallway to my bedroom. And at three and a half years old, my Michael didn't walk. He skipped and he jumped. And he would sing a song and dance his way through every day. And he came barreling into my room and he said, mommy, isn't this the best day ever? And I was like, oh my God. And I thought to myself, you have no idea that your best day is going to be a fraction of what my best day will be. You have no idea what kind of world you're stepping into, and you have no idea what you're going to miss out on. So I said to him, Michael, why do you think that this is the best day ever? And with his big signature smile and a that just lit up every room, he said, mommy, the sun is shining and I have all my toys and I'm just so happy. And he spun around and went back to his perfect day. And in that instance now, yes, I am creating a film in Hollywood, but if I would have directed and written that that part lightning bolts, all kinds of fireworks were going off in, in my mind that I was like, oh my God, this kid is not.

Speaker2: Some visual information for people who are blind. I just I just wiped a tear.

Speaker3: Oh.

Speaker2: Thank you for that.

Speaker3: I was like, I prayed blindness away every day for three years. And in that moment, it was my blindness to Michael and his spirit and all the gifts he had and the life he had ahead of him. I was so blind to his potential and his joy, and his not bothered by blindness that I missed it. For three and a half years. So in that moment, yes, that prayer was answered. Blindness was taken away. Was it the specific one I was talking about? No, it was even better. It was me. The blinders were removed and I was able to see him not as a blind child anymore. I was able to see him as this music loving bundle of joy that made everybody around him a better person after a minute with him. So I didn't know how I was going to do it, because I still didn't have any resources to do it, but I was going to figure out how to get them the tools that they needed. And I and I made a commitment to them in that moment that I would be their guide on the side, and I would get them what they need and follow their lead. And that has led me to the most extraordinary places. And for parents. Whatever your kids have going on or nothing at all going on. I want parents to hear that. I believe, after 25 years now, because Michael turned 25 recently, I believe our biggest struggles and our children's biggest struggles, even into adulthood, are that they are carrying the weight of our expectations, along with the weight of their own expectations on their lives.

Speaker3: Right. And I always say, imagine a kid walking with a backpack, and in that backpack are all of his hopes and dreams, but he's also carrying these bricks and boulders of the parents expectations and hopes and dreams. And that's unfair. And that's what weighs them down. And when we get that off of them and I'm like, hey, the best thing among Many a list of best things about blindness in our life. The best thing it did for me was that my expectations were eliminated, and I literally had to say, I don't know what you're going to be able to do, but whatever you want to get out there and try, I will help you figure it out. And then I quickly had to figure it out that with two of them, I was outnumbered, and I had to go find some people that were able to guide me, which is why I then did become more like Charlie's mom. I muscled up and I started Kirk so lovely said, I just, you know, oh, Kristin called me and then she said she was coming up to visit. I was hunting people down. I was finding people even before we had Facebook and all that. When Google came on the scene, it was like, oh boy, that lady's on there crashing it again, finding the role models to guide my guys and help me find the resources to help them become thrivers in this world.

Speaker2: And you learned a lot.

Speaker5: And I learned a lot.

Speaker2: And I think Charlie mentioned that that that that concludes chapter two. So now we'll move chapter three. And you two can self-organize this chapter any way you want. You're, you're a team. So the thriving blind. The first time I heard the those two words together was a book that you were putting together. Kristin, I'm privileged to be profiled along with some other pretty awesome blind people. And now you develop the thriving Blind Academy. I've had the honor to be part of two summits that you conducted as a thriving blind command academy this January and 2024 I receive your new newsletters and read them with joy. Five to thrive and the different topics you explore. And If you're going to be blind, this is a pretty good time to be blind, because technology is so helpful to us, and we can connect and join in community and engage and access resources in ways that even five years ago we're not as robust as they are now. So the thriving Blind Academy is using all the tools. And I would love to hear how you two created the Academy. What has the journey been so far? What's working well, any challenges you might be having and where you see the Academy going?

Speaker3: Well, let me jump in for one quick second and then I'm going to turn it over to Charlie, because really, it's based in our experiences in Charlie getting into the world and thriving. And then me seeing the things, the elements of my sons and Kirk. You pointed out a few of them in the beginning of this, but it was also Charlie's whole background in the principal, the success principles of all successful people. So I want him to to go into that a little bit, because his journey with that was incredible. But Charlie mentioned when we met in the mastermind, and then he was messaging me and I'm like, okay, wait a minute. I think maybe that's a little bit we get a little bit dramatic in our tales of how we talk about when we met, but when we finally did connect, it was, you know, what I love about both of you? And it's such a testament to successful people. You guys jump in, right? When someone needs to have help, you jump right in as go givers. And I had reached out to both of you for the original Succeed Without Sight summit to say, hey, listen, we can't do anything because it's Covid. Parents really need this message. It's so frustrating. I need them to understand about thriving. And you both came in and said, I don't know what you're putting together, but and I'm like, here, there's going to be a zoom link.

Speaker3: I promise, as soon as I figure it out. And you both came in to speak, Charlie came in on one of the. We had so many speakers, we and we had someone from Australia that I had to switch out the schedule and we started on like a Thursday night, Friday night and all day Saturday. And Charlie was like, who is this woman? I've only seen her with her baseball hats and her Philly attitude in the mornings, and now she wants me to come in and open this summit no one's ever heard of. Okay, so I actually had my Mitchell at the time because everybody was stuck home during the pandemic. I had him come in to my office and listen, the night that Charlie spoke to open this whole summit, because I wanted him to be a speaker, too. And he was like, I don't know what you're talking about. I said, all these people don't know either, but they have signed up for it. So just do what I say. And Charlie spoke and he and he went more in depth to what he just told all of you just now. And, you know, my Mitchell is very different from my Michael. I mean, they are completely opposite human beings with their unique gifts and talents. But Mitchell struggles with blindness in ways that Michael never did. And I didn't realize that he had been doing what Charlie did, hiding his feelings, not wanting to share them with me because I was such the thriving blind mom.

Speaker3: And when Charlie spoke and ended the session, I shut my laptop and Mitchell looked at me and he said, mom, that guy just changed my life. So I knew in that moment that there's no way that I could build something that would address the entire community, because I don't walk that walk. Right. I can talk to parents, I can I can hug them, I can do all the tough love. I can do all the things because I've been there with two that are very different, But I cannot walk that walk. That a person, especially somebody that loses vision later in life. That has not been my journey. And watching the impact that Charlie had on my Mitchell. And then I watch in our Monday calls and all the things that we do. I mean, it's absolutely, unbelievably necessary for our community to have somebody like Charlie and the stuff that he teaches and coaches in our community is not just tools of blindness and all of in the siloed, shoved into the blindness corner. It's all of what makes a person successful in the world. So, Charlie, I'm going to I'm going to have you go into that a little more on how this came to be, this thrive or formula with the success principles.

Speaker4: Sure. Well, thank you. And Kristin, I think it was when I was in sitting in a classroom and terrified that it was they were doing a reading and it might come. They might try to get me to read. And then I was terrified when they wrote on the chalkboard because the kids would be like, hey, you can't see. You know, and I didn't know how to express that. And then gym class, it really I bombed that day and I was sharing like I held this stuff in, which is just very damaging because then the belief that I am different, I'm less than, I'm not good enough. I'll never thrive. It keeps growing inside of me. And Mitch was like, oh crap, I've been doing that. And you know, and when you realize you're not alone and you do have feelings and they're okay, and let's talk about it. And, you know, the biggest thing was I learned to one day I wasn't alone. I suffered, I had issues, and I but I didn't, but my brother didn't, so I felt alone. Did you. Oh, you moved on the screen. That was weird. You know what I mean? My brother was the opposite of me. He dancing around and doing school and doing dad. Is there anything I can do for you? Stop being so good. You're making me look bad.

Speaker4: Anyway, so, Kristin, I, I, I you know, when this whole constant and never ending improvement that we live by, Kirk understands it. We understand that if we let off the gas for too long we're going to come to a stop. If we stop pedaling on the bike, eventually the bike's going to stop. So you've always got to be in motion. And that's where my. I became addicted to learning and to growing and personally developing. And then I can't keep it unless I give it away. So I want to share only experiences. And I don't talk down from a hilltop. You need to do this. I just like to hey, this is what worked for me. And basically I started going to conferences and doing all this stuff. And when I ever went to the Breakthrough to Success Conference in 2008 and I it was a seven day event that was doing exactly what we do in the academy, basically was showing you the problem, helping you see that you do have the power within to resolve and get rid of discard and start building on some new, you know, beliefs and principles and things like that. You know, because a lot of people that go to those conferences are pretty banged up. They want help and they're ready, you know, and it's always you got to be willing and you got to be ready, make a decision and then move forward.

Speaker4: So by the end of that. Jack Canfield. Chicken soup for the soul. That's the guy that was running these things. And at the end of it, he was going to let us two people out of 400 and something come up on stage and share their story. I'm not a speaker. I mean, I spoke for my company. I went all over the place talking about adaptive technology. What this is going to do for you. But I didn't really bring in my story. So, Kirk, that week he had a big jug on the table, and he gave us all index cards, and you had to write your name in. Why? You think he should pick you to speak? Well, my first thought was, I can't I can't write on an index card. I write massive with a dark pen. So that's not fair. And. And then I toughed around. But I walked by that darn jug every day and looked at the cards, going in it and thinking, wow, people. They would actually get up on stage in front of everybody and speak. That's crazy. See, now I was I was still scared back then, even though I lived my life in my protected little environment. Well, now I'm outside that playing with the big wigs, and I was scared.

Speaker4: But anyway something came to me, and I just kept in my room that week, and, you know, we, you know, see yourself doing it. Practice. And I would walk in my room and go, hi, my name is Charlie Collins and pretend I was speaking to the group. And then by the last day he said, okay, by lunch is the last time you can put something in the jug. So if you want to be possibly chosen. So I finally ripped out, I had a notebook with legal size paper in it, and I wrote, you know, hey, Jack, it's Charlie Collins. This is why I think you should pick me. And then I folded it up, and I lifted everything in there, and I hid it in the bottom, and then I an hour we went to lunch, and I said, what did I do? I started sweating, I ran back into the room to find that jug and rip my paper out, and it was gone. I said, oh my God. And I panicked. And then the next day the conference started. He picked, he said, all right, we're going to pick the two speakers. And he said, speaker number one. The guy was great. He had a knife in his chest ready to pull it in, and I'm like, whoa.

Speaker4: He was so good. And I remember thinking, oh my God, I would never want to be the one going after this guy. And then we're sitting there and he goes, all right, our next guy is Charlie Collins. And I went, there better be another one here. And the people are poking me next to me because we all become friends. You know, we worked in groups and we all grew together. It was a wild experience. And I'm there like, that's you. I'm like, oh, God, I gotta get out of here. And my knees, my legs were shaking. I'm holding my hands and wiggling fast. Like, like ridiculously. I couldn't even control it. And the guys miking me up, he's like, don't worry, it's going to be fine. I said, easy for you to say. I'm the one walking out on stage. And you know, this is where I. I heard the teachings and I just stepped into it. I leaned into it and I said, what's the worst that can happen? These people want me to. I was the only visually impaired person in the whole place, and they didn't treat me any different. They let me sit up front. They asked me, is there anything we can do for you? Only because I said, I need some reasonable accommodations. And they were met and exceeded.

Speaker4: So I had no excuses. I wanted this, my flow in life, my path was going that way and this was it. So I got up and did my speech and I got a standing ovation from over 400 people. It was the weirdest feeling. I'm thinking, sit down, this is so uncomfortable. I'm, you know, and then at the end, they gave me feedback and criticism and feedback and all that. And that was a little hard. I'm like, this is my first time. Anyway. But at the end, Kirk and this is what this is where the neat part is. Instead of walking off to the left of the stage where the stairs were, I walked right to the edge of the front and did this like a momentum of my body, and flailed my arms like I was walking off the front of the stage as a blind guy, and I was going to land on the people in front of me. They all screamed and jumped up, and I pointed and went, gotcha! I was just messing around. I realized I had a very big, playful side that was not afraid to come out in a room full of people I didn't know. And the place went berserk. And people to this day know me as the dude that freaked him out, almost stepping off the stage.

Speaker4: And I've been in presentations with 3400 people. I jump off the front of the stage and land right in front of the front row. So you know, I I learned principles of success, whether it's believing in yourself, leaning into asking for help. I went from a go getter in life to a go giver. I know there's a book by that. And I met him in a Jack Canfield conference. I'm like, hey, I've been using that. Not fair. And then he became one of the speakers in our in our summit. But that is what happened to me was I these guiding principles, I would come back to my company and we would do weekly trainings on them and about taking responsibility, about going the extra mile, all these neat things that I didn't learn in the 12 years of school I had. Because not only were my eyes not working that well, but neither were my ears. So that's what we did. And Kristin and I just we just partnered it, and I said, let's let we talked about let's come together. Let's take turn it into an academy and a place where we can bring people in, let them know they're not alone, and let them know that they have the power to succeed. They just got to remove their blind spots and we can help them get there.

Speaker2: So give us give us the thriving Blind Academy brochure. If people become involved with the Academy, blind people, families with blind kids who, who, whoever can benefit, what, what do they get? What do you do for them?

Speaker3: Well, you just heard tell Charlie went from where he was at in life and took that one step to go to that conference, just not knowing how it was going to go. And that's exactly what we do in the academy. People can come in from wherever they are on the journey. We have folks that just got the diagnosis for their four month old baby And reached out. And we have folks that have had a very successful life. All of a sudden their vision has dropped off more. They don't know where they're going to go now. And they come in. And then we have folks like Clark Reynolds, who was believing in himself, believing his whole life was possible. The entire town in his London town said, absolutely not. You can't be a blind artist. He came in to said, hey, I think that I can. Do you guys think that I can too? And can you help me get there? So it's like the whole gamut of where people are in, in their journey with blindness. And we do all of what Charlie just said. Jack Canfield does in breakthrough for success, we build community. You, Kirk, you mentioned that that every week anyone that signs up for the newsletter gets the five to thrive to start their week in a thriving mindset. But the best part is our members come in every Monday to that, to a one hour community call where we break down, Charlie and I break down whatever that element of the Thriver formula is that we're focusing on that week, and then it's open community talk.

Speaker3: People share stories about we kind of start out on the on that letter of the Thriver formula and the coaching and then have some examples and then it just goes off from there. And we have had folks that like Clark, he was doing really well and he was so successful, came through our mastermind programs and we have a whole online portal of masterclasses and, and the summit recordings and all of that. He was doing great, very successful. And then all of a sudden he met this huge barrier and challenge. And in one of our community calls on Monday, he said to the group, listen. And he's a mentor in our community. And he said, I am really struggling. I don't know how to take the next step on my journey of where I'm going with all of this. I've had so much success, but I've got this barrier because I just lost a ton more vision and I can't figure out how to do stuff at the different galleries and the whole community. I mean, it's one of my most favorite moments in all of the time that we've been doing this, people were people that never talk because a lot of people leave their camera off and just listen to the community share stories. They were turning cameras on, people were cheering him on. People were giving him a little tough love. Charlie was nudging him a little bit like, hey, maybe you should go about it this way. And after 20 minutes, Clark was back up to his high and getting back out there in the world. And then he ended up winning a medal from the Queen.

Speaker3: And I was like, if you if everyone came into our academy, you'd win a medal from the Queen. But to be very specific, and I will say this is one of the things we wanted to talk with you about, Kirk. And you probably realize this. We are very different. We do. We are ones that in this community, as opposed to pretty much everybody else, that gives everything away for free because they believe that that people that are blind deserve to have all free services. We say invest in yourself, invest in your child, invest in your family. Invest in the future that you want to design for yourself. And for a $97 membership fee for an entire year, the entire family can come in because, as you know, it's not just the one person. For the most part, it's their circle of people, whether they're going to be held back or not. But we do we do look for we got a lot of pushback on that investment, and Charlie and I stayed strong on that. And I'll tell you, the people that that are investing in themselves and their families, they show up. They do the work. Not that it's not that we give a ton of work. We do. They do some stuff before the next thing they join the master classes. You know, they're there for the entire time of the Succeed Without Site Summit Live, even though they get the recordings Wordings. Right? It's a it's a very different it's one little switch that has such huge results.

Speaker2: And how do people connect with the thriving blind Academy?

Speaker3: Well, as Charlie has on his screen, thriving blind academy org.

Speaker2: That is so easy to remember.

Speaker3: Yeah.

Speaker5: That's great. Let's see it. Well.

Speaker4: The little thing I have on the screen and Kristin, you mentioned want to mention this quick. The you said the thrive, the T and all that. But for those of you who don't know in Thriver is a is the principle formula the word and we.

Speaker5: Let's hear it.

Speaker2: Let's do it.

Speaker5: All right.

Speaker4: So t is tools. And that can be all sorts of tools. Anything and everything inside the industry, outside the industry. But the main tool that we focus on too is the mindset is the mind tool, because then all the other tools we need in our lives are just we attract them easier and we form a relationship and use them better when we don't fight. And then the next one is H. And that's handi capable. And even though in golf handicapped is positive. In our community, we, we move to what's possible. Belief in yourself. Belief that you can do it. And then there is responsibility. That wasn't my favorite one in the beginning. My. I used to hear that from my parents. You need to take more responsibility. I don't even know what you're talking about. Bye bye. And it's this that I'm no longer going to blame. Complain. I'm no longer going to rationalize why I behave that way or justify why I'm being a jerk. I'm not going to make excuses anymore, and I'm not going to figure that out immediately. But over time, I'm going to step into somebody who takes 100% responsibility for my life and the results of my life, because they are it is because of the way I think and do so that one is critical. We really focus in that one a lot. And Kristin, what have we got after the R?

Speaker3: So then it's the eye for independence and interdependence. Those are always exciting conversations in our Monday calls that we have every week, because it's that balance of being independent, but also knowing when to ask for help. And one of our members, Corey, who's a retired TVI, talks about if you to be independent, a child cannot be parent impaired. And she goes on about that. It's too fun. So knowing when to ask for help and then it's always the hilarious stories of Mitchell, who thinks that it's just, you know, it's so easy to ask for help because all these people just want to serve him. Look at how happy it makes them. So we also have to tweak that a little bit. Independence and interdependence. And then one that I've just really started embracing and diving into these past couple of months is value. The V stands for value. And what I realized is, you know, we talk about people that and Kirk especially I mean you look on your LinkedIn and it's all about the value of being inclusive, the value that a person that is blind and lives differently and accesses differently brings to the world. Right? And we're always talking about that. I've taught my boys that forever. What I didn't realize, though, was when Michael wasn't getting hired, coming out of Penn State summa cum laude, he wasn't necessarily communicating his value in the interviews and communicating, you know, not worrying about whether am I going to disclose, not disclose, fully disclosing because he's like, listen to how I've accessed the world and how I can add value to your company.

Speaker3: That's when he got hired, right? So values become a big one that we talk about. E and then there's the emotion part. And that's another thing. Charlie was actually the one that was really bringing this to light in a lot of our conversations, because we cycle through the Thrive or formula every six weeks about the power of emotion and families talking about the emotions. I mean, you heard his story. He had all of that, not wanting to talk about the emotions around all of this. And then Charlie's favorite, the final R, is risk taking. And those conversations you can imagine where some of some of the trails that that Charlie takes us down in the risk taking conversations. But the importance of taking a risk to be able to go in the direction of thriving and designing the life that you want, not what someone else has determined should be.

Speaker4: We'll never get there without taking that risk. And, Kirk, we got a member. His name is Eric, and he took a risk. One day, a branch was pissing him off because on the sidewalk. So he walked out of his house with a chainsaw and cut it down, and he's blind.

Speaker5: There you go. I know I.

Speaker2: Learned a new I learned a new term. This week I was contacted by Vanderbilt University. They have a federal grant to work on school, to work transition for blind youth. And they're preparing trainings for parents. And they asked if I would be willing to record a short video clip about the dignity of risk and how if you don't let your kids take risks, you're taking away their dignity as developing human beings. So I.

Speaker5: Love.

Speaker2: It. I like it, too. So.

Speaker5: Well.

Speaker4: Kirk, when Kristin said that as we as visually impaired children. I'm not anymore. But growing up, are we on our backs are the expectations of our parents. But you know what else is on the back of many kids that I worked with over the years is they're taking on the parents fear the parent is without the kid, without not saying it, but the parent doesn't want them to fail or be embarrassed or and I always teach. The only way they're going to make it is if all that happens and it's going to. You can't shelter them from it, and they know you're trying to protect them and they you enabling is disabling. So let them fall. Let them fail a little. That'll trigger the mind that they have to get to work to start building their.

Speaker5: Plan.

Speaker4: Of action.

Speaker2: So this was a phrase that was drilled into me 55 plus years ago at the Oregon State School for the blind. They said all the time, we don't pad corners. We don't pad corners here. Corners are.

Speaker5: Sharp. Yes.

Speaker2: They exist. You gotta learn how to deal with the world with a lot of sharp corners. And we're not going to pad the corners for you.

Speaker5: I would, I would have.

Speaker3: Known that from you, because.

Speaker5: Michael.

Speaker3: Hit a corner in my house and popped a hole in his forehead.

Speaker2: Well, the forehead is where you get it the most. Kristin.

Speaker3: Yeah, I.

Speaker5: Know.

Speaker2: And I, I also tell parents of blind kids you can measure how well you're doing by how many times you gotta go to the emergency room. So we have just sped through an hour together. I do want to go a little bit over, because there is a particularly awesome opportunity for 100 young, blind people to accelerate their journey into independence and thriving. That's coming up. And, Kristin, if you could give the headline of that and how people who are interested can connect with you.

Speaker3: Yeah. So again, it's thriving. Blind academy org. You can go right to the homepage and on the top left you'll see the giant button for the Thrive Blind mentor program. You know, like I said, we built the thrive formula on experience with blind kids and the EC and IEPs and all that. But we wanted to bring in with the real world. Everybody else success is and that was the success principles. Now we've got this partnership with the Grant Cardone Foundation, who is the Bazillionaire that teaches kids and adults. The adults pay upwards of 5000 to $50,000 to come into his workshops about leadership, financial literacy. Right. All of these key things that, you know, I looked at it and it was our friend Michael Patel that had told me about this. And when I looked at the program, I said, wow, they're doing this for Are thousands of at risk youth in Florida because Grant believes that all youth deserve these skills. Right. And I was like, why do we always have, you know, all at risk, all disability? And then the blind kids are kind of off on their own. Nobody thinks about that. They should be included in this too. And when I asked the Cardone Foundation that they were like, I don't know, no one's ever asked that. No one's ever come to us.

Speaker3: Sure, we'll do it. So it is the regular skills of financial literacy and leadership that make for successful entrepreneurs, future leaders, all of the things that these kids are going to be immersed in for a full day. And then we're doing the evening before because Charlie and I don't do anything if it's not fun. Like, yes, we are all about learning, teaching, coaching. But if it's not fun, we're not signing up. So we're making it super fun the night before where everybody's coming in, we actually have 11 states. People were coming in from 11 states, not just Florida. Now up to join us, get to know each other. A little bit of exercises around the Thriver formula, but really just building community. Actually, we already had one zoom call with a bunch of the early responders and registrations. And I can tell you, Kirk, it is like these kids, you know, a lot of them were sitting with their parents and they were probably the parents sign them up and said, you are going to do this whether you like it or not. And then as they were meeting each other and hearing each other, even just on the introductions, you could tell all the smiles started like, oh, this is going to be fun, right? So it's a day and a half in the Miami area where we'll all be hanging out at the hotel for the evening prior and then all going together to Grant Cardone's headquarters in Miami and learning from his coaches, mentors, all of these things.

Speaker3: But the cool thing is that they're allowing us to do that. I don't even want to say allowing that they're excited about that's different from any other workshop that they do. We've got a panel of people that are living with blindness and low vision, succeeding without sight, that are going to end the day in a way that says everything you just learned today. Here's how I've done that in my life living with vision loss. Because we don't want these kids leaving saying, well, that was great for people that can see. But you know, those complaining, blaming and all those excuses. So it'll be a really nice send off. But the coolest thing of all of it is then they're in our. This includes because of sponsorships. These kids will all then become members in the academy and have the opportunity to come into our Monday mentor calls and then specific calls just for that group to stay in touch with all of the lessons that Grant taught. They get access to his whole online platform in addition to the thriving blind platform.

Speaker2: What ages? What ages are we looking for?

Speaker3: 15 to 21.

Speaker2: 15 to 21. You have room for 100 blind young people age 15 to 21 for a amazing. Perhaps once in a lifetime opportunity. So w-w-w dot org, the giant mentor program, but. So that's where you find that. And finally, way, way back at the beginning of chapter two you asked the doctor, how is Michael going to play baseball? And they said, no, he's not going to be able to play baseball. And I believe he did play baseball very successfully. And I know you're making you're making a film having participating, having a Hollywood level box office film made. And I just proudly made a pledge and got my digital baseball jersey, which I posted on my social media. But give us give us about a minute on the curve ball.

Speaker3: Yeah. Curve ball. And thank you for for adding to the being part of the team Kirk curve ball.

Speaker5: Is they're calling it my jersey.

Speaker3: You know that's my favorite number. I was like oh how did he get 11. And I didn't. But they're calling curve ball the next Erin Brockovich. And honestly, I had always wanted to tell this story on the big screen because like I said, it was Hollywood that gave me the horrible story of blindness. So I wanted to change, use Hollywood to change what they were delivering as the story of blindness. When I saw Michael's championship baseball season unfold. Because if you can imagine walking up to a baseball field with the kid with the white cane, parents, of course, are insanely competitive. They don't want any perceived disadvantage, even though all of their kids were ten and terrible. There wasn't a really great, talented player on that team, The boys did not want anyone with a perceived disadvantage, you know. They all want to win and whatever. So we were not very welcome. Michael didn't care. Michael he can. Don't even think about that. He sees that people are disinterested. He can hear when people are disinterested before I can even see it. He didn't care he was going to go and play baseball. But I did not just walk up there saying, my kid's going to play baseball. He played blind sports and we played in the backyard. He was a good baseball player. So anyway, nobody wanted him on that team. They were afraid of me, I think.

Speaker3: So they said yes. And the kids lost every single game. But little by little, and like my Charlie mentioned reasonable accommodations. We asked for two accommodations. They were met, and little by little, the team started to have more and more teamwork with Michael at the helm of that, they didn't want to work with Michael in the outfield. Then they went to fighting over who got to work with Michael in the outfield. And lo and behold, they end up in the playoffs after losing every game and go on to win the championship in extra innings against the first place team. It is the incredible story of when you put your bias aside. Give every kid an opportunity with accommodations that are reasonable. The incredible, incredible advantages that happen when full inclusion is there. I always wanted to tell that story. My director, who I went to with the story, he said, Kristin, how did he get to be able to do all that? Who got him into the public school? Who gave him the tools? You have to tell the mom story your journey to. So it's both. It's parallel stories in one big feature film. And actually now the byline for it is Erin Brockovich meets Rocky, and they put a film together, something like that. And it's up for best screenplay in Hollywood. I'm going out there in two weeks.

Speaker2: Nice, nice. And if people want to support the film, where do they go?

Speaker3: The easiest way is Kristin Smedley.

Speaker5: Okay.

Speaker3: Kristin with an I in.

Speaker5: Okay.

Speaker4: It was about a year until you told me I was spelling your name wrong.

Speaker5: Well, Charlie.

Speaker2: Final. Final thoughts?

Speaker4: Now, this has been great. I enjoyed sharing and being connected to people like you and, of course, Kristin that are, you know, we're all out when we're not together. We're doing what we just did.

Speaker5: Right.

Speaker2: And join me next month. It's the last Thursday of the month. It is at 11 p.m. 11 p.m. no, 11 a.m. Pacific. Supercharge your bottom line through disability inclusion. If you want to get in touch with me, my website is www.com.com. And thank you everybody who is viewing this webinar. And thank you so much Charlie. Thank you so much Kristin with an I n appreciate you both so much and glad our paths keep crossing and recrossing.

Speaker5: Excellent.

Speaker2: Good care.

Speaker5: Thanks, Kirk.

Speaker4: Bye bye.

Speaker1: Thank you for listening to podcasts by Doctor Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WW. Com. Together we can amplify these voices and create positive change. Until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this 34-minute episode, Dr. Kirk Adams speaks with Brandy Schantz—former U.S. Army officer, consultant, and chair of Virginia's State Rehabilitation Advisory Council—about her late-onset disability journey. Schantz describes being diagnosed with severe Crohn's disease, the complications that followed, and how an adverse reaction to medication led to dysautonomia and neuropathy, forcing her to create her own work-from-home accommodations years before remote work became common. The conversation compares the medical and social models of disability, highlights flexible scheduling as a low-cost but effective accommodation, and outlines how wellness and hybrid-work programs can help employers retain skilled staff who develop chronic conditions. Schantz also explains the role of state rehabilitation councils in connecting disabled workers with career supports. TRANSCRIPT: 00:09 Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams. 00:38 Welcome everybody to podcasts with Dr Kirk Adams, I have a wonderful guest today, Brandy Schantz. Brandy is host of The Living chronic podcast. She's the founder of Schantz business group disability consulting, and she is chair of the state of Virginia's rehabilitation advisory council. So you are a busy bee, Randy, yes, yes, I am. But you know, I have to say, it's been some of the most rewarding work of my life, so busy and humbled at the same time Wonderful. Well, we're going to come back to you and just just a minute and dig into your really interesting journey and your great vision for the future. And for those who don't know me, I am Dr Kirk Adams. I'm talking to you from my home office in Seattle. I am a totally blind person. Have been since age five. My rep was both detached. I went to a school for blind children for second and third grade, and learned to read and write Braille and travel confidently and proudly with a white cane and to type on a typewriter so that I was equipped to succeed in public school, which I started in fourth grade, and I was I was the only blind kid in all of My schools from fourth grade through my PhD, 02:02 I entered the world of business out of college, facing a lot of the barriers to employment that so many of us with significant disabilities experience. So I have a frustrating time finding employment, but I have had the experience of being a successful 02:22 disabled employee in corporate America, working in banking and finance, and I have had the experience of employing large numbers of people with disabilities as president and CEO of the Lighthouse for the Blind and then the American Foundation for the Blind. 02:38 I focus my time and energy now with my consulting practice, innovative impact LLC, and I say I was looking for fun, innovative, high impact projects that will accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities, 02:54 to work with people that I like. And so I met Brandy some time ago, and she kindly invited me to be a guest on her living chronic podcast. I wanted to I wanted to talk less about myself and more about her on so invited her to join me today, and Brandy would just really love to 03:17 hand you the talking stick and hear about your journey and what has led you to focus your intention on disability inclusion, 03:28 what you're doing currently? Where do you see your work going in the future? I would love to love to hear some successes, what's working well, and, of course, any challenges that you may be discovering, and we always learn from our challenges, and then then we'll let people know how to get in touch with you. So the floor is yours. 03:52 Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. You know, I was so excited to meet you, have you on my podcast. I really love the collaboration. It's such a different world here. You know, like you, I started in a different industry. I was an Army officer, and then I went into consulting and did a lot of work in the housing and finance sectors before I really had my own experiences becoming disabled much later in life. As a matter of fact, I had switched careers originally because I was diagnosed with a very severe form of Crohn's disease, and I just frankly, couldn't leave my house before noon, even on my best days. And I needed some sort of job that I could work from home in the mornings. So, you know, I had a little bit of an idea of what it was like to be challenged with a disability. Fortunately, I was able to pivot pretty quickly and deal with that. But five years ago, at what stage you your army career had ended? 05:00 Yeah, at that point, yeah. And you were Yes, yes. I left the army. 05:04 Yeah. I left the Army in 2007 05:08 and decided, you know, I, you know, got married, my husband, who was a little bit older than me. Well, he still is. I like to pretend I'm still much younger, but I guess I got much older as well. 05:22 He was retiring, and a few years beyond that, in the army, you can retire after 20 years. So if you commissioned at age 21 right after college, you're retiring at age 41 it's not it's not the worst setup, 05:35 but I wanted to be able to spend time with him rather than traveling with the army, so we settled in Washington, DC, like most of us do, and I moved on to consulting, okay, the obvious move, and Crohn's. I actually had an executive assistant who lived with Crohn's here, here at the lighthouse in Seattle. I know he would, his schedule permitted him to go for infusions regularly. Could you just tell, 06:08 tell a little bit about the onset? What? What? Yes, so actually, what? How does, how does that manifest? Oh, gosh, you know what? It manifests differently for everyone. And you know, that's the crazy part of chronic illness, especially autoimmune diseases. It just looks a little bit different in everybody. And I had actually been having symptoms since I started having symptoms while I was in Afghanistan in 2006 06:37 and I just assumed that, you know, I mean, there's all sorts of nasty stuff in Afghanistan that we're not used to if you've lived in the United States or Europe, these westernized countries, for years. So, you know, I didn't really think much of it. Pushed through. It wasn't so bad that it took me out of my job. So I just kept pushing forward. It wasn't until I was training for one of my marathons, I was training for Marine Corps Marathon, which has always been my favorite race, and I suddenly realized that I was having to kind of break away from my running group and go find a tree or a porta potty pretty frequently. 07:15 And it kept getting worse until I was dealing with severe pain every day, and just unable to leave the house. And I knew then that something was very wrong, and I went to the doctor, and that's when I was told that I needed to get a colonoscopy. They needed to do some biopsies, and I was finally diagnosed with Crohn's disease. What's interesting about it is, you know, 07:41 it's not one of those things where you get diagnosed and it's like, okay, well, here's the treatment plan. This is what you're going to do. We're going to go through this three months, and then you can go about your life. It's very trial and error. Nobody knows what's going to go to work. Nobody knows who's going to respond to what. So you have to try things and see how they're going to work for you. And we tried a lot with me, it did take me a long time to find something that would get me into remission. 08:12 So can you just, can you define 08:17 Crohn's disease? So tell us what. Tell us what it is. I know the one, but I Right. Like I said, I had the limited experience with one person I worked with. Yeah, so Crohn's disease is an 08:35 goodness. So you know what? I say it so much. You know how it is. You forget your your acronyms. I'm so here and not mess up my acronym, it's IBD, which is inflammatory bowel disease. Nothing like irritable bowel syndrome at all, but it can manifest in many different ways. 08:54 Some people just have terrible bloody diarrhea all day long. Sometimes it comes about, there's Crohn's, or you see with constipation, which is very painful. Of course, those can lead to bowel obstructions, which is an emergency. So you have to know when those The right time is to go to the doctor, go to the ER. 09:15 But it comes with some other things as well being an autoimmune disease. So it's not just the cramps and the pain. 09:23 There's, you know, various perforations you can get on your bowel, the blockages, which are very dangerous. It manifests in your joints often. Unfortunately, I have those symptoms as well. It feels a lot like arthritis, and then, 09:41 don't, want to get super clinical and medical, but, yeah, how would you define them? Autoimmune Disease? You've mentioned it several times, right? So an autoimmune disease is, you know, kind of the easiest way to explain it is, it's just your body attacking itself. Your immune system is really overactive. 10:00 Effective and it's attacking itself. 10:03 Of course, they're on the rise, and many women are very familiar with this. 80% of all autoimmune disease patients are women, in fact. So this is very much a women's issue. We're seeing a lot of women being diagnosed more and more frequently, as matter of fact, just last week, an old friend of mine that I used to work with reached out, and, you know, turns out, Hey, she's been diagnosed as well. And, oh, by the way, it's so severe, she had to take a step back and leave her job to focus on health. So the stories are not uncommon, yeah, so I interrupted you, but you are a very active person. You're on active duty serving in Afghanistan. You're a marathon runner, and you start having these symptoms, and it gets to the point where you really can't leave the house. You're diagnosed with a chronic illness, and all of a sudden you are a person with a disability? Yes, I'll let you take I'll let you take it back over. Yeah, well, you know, and it's just, I think I'm actually, I know I'm no different than a lot of people. I never said the D word. I didn't say the D word for years. It took me a long time to say the D word. 11:21 I just thought, well, you know, I have an illness. Let me just smooth right through this. I'll be fine. I'll be fine. 11:27 You know, there's a big joke in the military, you know, whatever you have, legs been blown off. You know what? Drink water. You'll be fine. Press on. Drink water. You know, we'll just move through anything. We don't complain. We don't say anything. And unfortunately, there just, there comes a time where you realize, well, I think I'm gonna have to complain about this one. I kept trying to just get right through it, but unfortunately, I just could not leave my house, and I had severe, severe pains. What makes this especially difficult is it restricts your life in ways you don't think about, you know, I talk about those, you know, bowel blockages. You know, you can get infections. There's not that uncommon to get these very serious infections in your GI tract, all these various things that could happen. IBD, you know, again, a lot of people confuse it with IBS, this is autoimmune disease your body's attacking itself. IBS is an irritation 12:25 usually caused by food some other things. I know there's some doctors out there that probably have a lot more to say about it, but with IBD, you can very much die from IBD. It does happen. So it starts restricting your life and things you didn't necessarily think about, if you're not in remission, your disease is very active. I was restricted from going on vacations that I may have, you know, gone on before I know, my husband and I used to love to go to the Bahamas, especially around Christmas time, because it's nice and quiet. You just get to kind of hang out on a hammock instead of participating in all the drama and purchasing and all that around Christmas in the US, we just could be and do nothing. But unfortunately, I had to stop going for some period of time because they just did not have the facilities if I had an emergency, and the nearest facility would have been in Miami, which is not a far plane ride by any stretch, but if you can't get a plane, yeah, you know, you only have hours. So there's, there's a lot of little things you just don't think about that suddenly become very important in your life. For me, the most important was I couldn't get to work. And of course, this was when I was diagnosed. It was 2013 13:42 we weren't talking about work from home. It wasn't a thing. All I knew was I wasn't able to get to work. Nobody had a good plan for me. Nobody could give me a suggestion. It was just, well maybe apply for disability. And I said, No, I don't want disability. I have a career. I would like to continue moving forward, please. 14:03 So I had to really pivot and try to think about, well, what does my life look like if I can't leave my house? Because even on my best days, sometimes I just could not leave the house before noon. You know, 14:16 it was just my it was my reality. I did find my own accommodations, and I didn't know that word in that sense back then, accommodation again, I never said the D word, so I didn't need to learn about the a word. I was just moving through everything. Nothing to see here. Everything's fine. 14:35 But I did find my own accommodations. You know, I would work 14:40 from home, I often would just bring my laptop into the bathroom with me and just keep plugging away. 14:47 You know, I just did whatever I needed to do to figure it out. I 14:51 made all my appointments, meetings, things like that I had to do outside of the house in the afternoons, where I typically felt much better. So I did find a way to work around. 15:00 Bit. I actually never had to really confront the D word until five years ago I started, I thought I was an over training syndrome. I started having these terrible joint and muscle pains, and I couldn't run, which is very unusual for me. I could run through anything, even through the worst, well, maybe not the worst of my currents, but I ran through a lot, but I just suddenly couldn't run it. I'd been training for Iron Man Chattanooga, so 15:27 it was unusual. And that started a period of 19 months where I slowly declined until I was paralyzed. For a short period of time, I was dealing with severe, severe muscle pain, joint pain, rashes. My brain was fried. I had crazy. I mean, 15:46 I couldn't think. I couldn't, you know, I 15:49 had trouble with words, crazy, emotional, 15:54 just swings, just swings. I've never experienced anything like it in my life. And that's when I finally found out that I'd been having a reaction to the HUMIRA I took for my Crohn's disease, 16:06 and it really knocked me down even still. I did not want to say the D word, even though I had been completely wiped out, I had not been able to move. I had been bed bound for a period of time. 16:18 I thought, well, this is fine. I'm on the upswing. I'll I'll be okay. Of course, that actually kicked off about another 16:28 two and a half years I spent finally getting to a diagnosis, and I was diagnosed with dysautonomia, pots, cardiac autonomic neuropathy, small fiber neuropathy in all limbs. It really has changed my life. And I finally realized it's time to say the D word. It is time to say the D word. And when I said the D word, I realized, you know, 16:53 I'm not the only person going through this, and there really is nobody giving us any directions. There's no help. I kept asking, Hey, what do I do? What do I do? How do I get through this? And there was nowhere, really. I found anybody to help me, to guide me, to help me figure it out. It was well, if you can't get to work, just apply for disability. I didn't want disability. I wanted to work. 17:19 So what happens when you know this happens to you, and you know, I really thought to myself, my goodness, I am a pushy broad, you know, I'm going to get what I want to get. It's real hard to tell me no. 17:34 So if I'm going through this and having this many challenges, what about the people who just don't want to push back, who hear no and say, Okay, well, if they said no, that's it, you know, who's helping these people? And that's what made me really question things. And made me say the D word, made me ask myself, what are people doing when they become disabled? What do these accommodations really mean? What are companies actually doing? Because, you know? I mean, I have two master's degrees. I think of a, you know, decently intelligent person. I have some great experience. And I was like, Where do I go? So, you know, there's a lot of people out there, I'm sure, who are saying, hey, what next? And 18:17 are people really doing a lot for accommodations to help people who really have changed their entire life and now need a new career and they don't want to go on disability. And I think that's the biggest message I try to send to people. You know, there's this idea out there, particularly, probably, if you've never been ill, disabled, have anybody like that in your life where you think, oh, welfare, all these people just trying to get money from the government so they can do nothing. Well, I meet people every day who are like, hey, is there a way I can get off of this and get back to work? I'd love to hear, 18:53 yeah. I'd love to talk a little bit about the medical model and social model of disability and impairment, the relationship between impairment and disability, and just get your take on it. So obviously, you're deeply embedded in a medical model. 19:09 When my retina is detached, I was operated on multiple times, and I can remember the students coming one by one, the look in my eyes, I was very much enmeshed in a medical model, and that's still the most common model of disability in United States, which, you know, bluntly says, Hey, if you have, if you have an impairment that we can't fix, you're you're a broken person. You know, you're less than there's no way you can contribute on the level of someone who doesn't have this impairment. So like you said, just, just take the disability check. The social model says 19:53 disability comes when we have challenges interacting with the environment because of the way it's. 20:00 Built so the built environment, the digital environment, the social environment, you know, but not not surprised, like constructed mainly by and for people without impairments. And if we have an impairment, like you have to show up nine to five to work. You're not able to do that. You have a situation where your set of physical characteristics does not fit well with the built environment of the workplace that requires you to be there at nine in the morning. Right? The relationship 20:33 between impairment and disabilities? I have a visual impairment. So it's visual, hearing, physical, cognitive are kind of the four main categories of impairment, and you described a lot of physical impairments around pain and joints and the inability to be as independently active as you were in the past. So 21:00 just because I have a visual impairment does not mean I'm always in a disabling situation. And my little example I always use is, you know, I ran a couple big nonprofits. If I'm at the conference table, I'm running a board meeting, and I have all my materials in Braille. I can read that Braille just as well as a sighted person can read print. I can run the meeting. I'm not in a disabling situation at all, even though I can't see if you hand me a stack of print that I can't read, then I'm in a disabling situation. I can't run the meeting because of my impairment. So 21:37 you know, in your case, I'm sure that di obviously, the dynamics are are somewhat different. But you know, you have an you have impairments 21:48 which are restrictive in some situations and not in others. And I just, you know, my my job, and I think yours, is to decrease the number of disabling situations that people with impairments are placed in by making the world more flexible, more inclusive, 22:11 and you just talked about employment, and people trying to move off of that transfer payment From the government get back in into productive employment activity. That's what I focus on as well. And I know you are. This is a, this is a pretty big leap from someone who couldn't say the word disability three years ago to someone who's chair of the state of Virginia rehabilitation advisory council. So I I'd love to hear how you You've obviously accelerated your thinking, your activity, your attitudes, and would would love to hear a little bit more about that part of the journey. 22:52 Well, I, you know, I think, I think that's probably the most important part of the journey. Honestly, 22:58 there's been a lot of work that's gone into getting my physical to a good place. There's been a lot of work getting to medical diagnosis, getting to a treatment plan, but there's a mental and emotional component that's really difficult to overcome, and it's the component that's not treated first, as a matter of fact, it's really an afterthought. I've so much I've gone through over these years. I've had one doctor, just one, ask me if I've gotten therapy, because I've been through a lot of trauma, just one, and I have been through a lot of trauma that that's a lot of trauma. 23:38 We should be thinking about things like that, and when I finally took that time to recognize that I needed to take care of my mental health as well, it was not just about me losing my physical health, that's when it forced me to really think about, 23:56 you know, what does this mean? What have I gone through and for me and everybody processes things differently, you 24:05 know, I think there's just that army spirit that's always going to be in me. I grew up a navy brat, you know, I commissioned in the army. I always joke that I went from one part of the military to another seamlessly. I was a military dependent, and then I walked across that stage to get my degree from University and walked to the other side of campus to commission as Second Lieutenant Baker in the US Army. But there is, you know, a huge component of service, you know, and it's just not something we talk about enough service. What does it really mean? Leadership. We do a lot in the army around leadership. What does being a leader truly mean? And that means you reach out and you help the people around you, especially the people who are depending on you. And as I was going through this, this emotional, mental process, you know, I realized that you. 25:00 It doesn't matter how tough a cookie you are, you can easily be broken, 25:05 and somebody does have it worse. It does not negate what I'm going through. But at that moment, I realized, if I'm suffering, what else is going on? And that did part of my healing process was going around and finding out, what are other people experiencing? What are you going through? What kind of help do you need? Because at the end of the day, I've lost a lot. I lost a career I loved. I lost my athletic ability, which I loved. But I do have a very lovely savings account. I have money coming in each and every month. I have a husband who makes plenty of money he could easily take care of both of us, even if I didn't already have that nice bank account. I have two forms of health insurance. You know, all of these things give me the ability to fight through diagnosis the way I did. It gave me that ability to heal, to focus on rehab. And there's so many people who are going through this with nothing, and they're trying to figure out how they get through an illness or a new disability and pay rent, and if you can't get to work because you've been in an accident and you have a job that is very physical, 26:15 well how are you going to pay rent to be able to go to the doctor? And if you just lost your job, where's your health insurance? So there's all of these things that other people are going through. And I thought, You know what? Let me find out what's going on there, and that will be a part of my way of healing, is to reach out and see what I can do for others, because I have the privilege and the capability to do so. And I think that's what really got me to embrace disability, because I realized that disability could be anything if it's preventing you from being able to perform at full capacity, you have a disability. Think about it like your golf handicap. What's going on? You know? What do we need to do to get you to the next place and understanding it that disability was not about my own personal failures, it was about my current situation and how I can overcome that, to be able to live the life that I would like to or need to, or just bridge that gap. You know, what do I need to not be disabled in this moment? And how can I help others to get to that next place? And that's really why I love the mission of the state's rehabilitation councils. Nobody had ever talked to me about this. I'd never heard of it. I don't think most people have. I spend, you know, if anybody's ever been on the internet pretty late and there's this crazy lady saying, Hey, let me see if I can help you to rehab into a new career. That's probably me, you know. Um, I'm always, you know, Hey, did you have you ever heard of a rehabilitation Council? No, I have not, 27:43 but it is important, because these things, this is how people this is how people are failed, whether you know on the social, even though there needs to be a stronger glue between the social and the medical aspect, I feel every doctor's office should have information on how to rehabilitate your career? Should you become career disabled? 28:05 Because everybody needs that help. We need that help. You know, we need especially in the United States, where most people need their job to keep their insurance. How am I supposed to get myself well if I don't have my insurance? You know, it's chicken before the eggs. So 28:20 putting these together and finding ways to bridge, put these bridges out there for people who need them. I just felt it was so important. So now I'm very proud to say I'm disabled, and I say it as much as I can. I'm very upfront and open, because I know that if I say I'm disabled and that I can help others to also find those accommodations so that you're not disabled in this particular Yeah, 28:48 do you primarily work with individuals, Brandy or organizations, or both, 28:53 both mostly organizations. Right now, in the near future, what I'm putting together is an advisory service to go in and help companies put together wellness programs. There's so many, there's so much great research out there showing that if you put in wellness programs for your employees, you have employees that are first, more productive, and second, you keep them, which you know, anybody who's worked in business knows retention, that's that's a big number. You know, constantly having an employee overturned is very costly. And when I looked at the number of women, especially leaving the workforce, who are very skilled workers, where this is these are mostly women in their 40s and 50s who suddenly are just like me, suddenly find yourself with a severe autoimmune disease, and you can't find an accommodation to help you get through it all at work, and companies are losing this talent. And I've heard companies say over and over again, why are we losing these people? And I say, Well, it's because they're now chronically ill, and you need some programs to help keep them in place. You. 30:00 And these programs can help. 30:03 You know, I can't change everything. I mean, my joints are going to hurt forever, but we can put in programs in place at work to help to accommodate those issues. 30:15 Flexibility I'm really worried about. You know, we love to swing a pendulum here in the United States, don't we? And we went to all 30:24 work from home. Now there seems to be this big push. Well, let's just get everybody back to the office. Well, 30:32 guys, I think we can find something in between, because hybrid work really does work, and some people don't even need to be in an office at all right, the most common, helpful accommodation across all categories of disability is a flexible work schedule, yep, and that doesn't cost a penny, not not a bit, and it does so much for diversity. When we talk about, I refuse to stop talking diversity, I will admit that there are some problems with diversity in most companies, and that's a topic we could certainly discuss at length. 31:10 But real, true diversity, including people from various backgrounds and disabilities, really do contribute to the bottom line of companies. They really 31:19 do contribute to a more well rounded workforce. So I think we really don't want to throw out that kind of a benefit when looking at this, you know, return to office. You know, maybe hybrid work does work best for certain people. Let's, you know, talk about how that could be done. Well, yes, well, people have got a little taste of who you are and what you do and what what you're focusing on. This half hour has flown by, but I would love to have you let folks know how they can get in touch with you. Certainly, my podcast is living chronic on all platforms, and my website is brandichs.com 32:02 that's S, C, H, A, n, t, z, 32:06 brandys.com 32:07 and you can find my podcast, a lot of my advocacy work I'm doing, and of course, my consulting business, Schantz business group, where I'm always ready to help get People to that next level and live a better life while disabled and for companies, of course, meeting that 32:28 higher goal of diversity hiring. 32:31 Fabulous. On me. You can find me on LinkedIn, Kirk Adams PhD, or my website is Dr Kirk adams.com Your Kirk adams.com and I'm sure Brandy, and I know I would be pleased to speak with anyone who's listening about accelerating inclusion of people with disabilities and supporting people with disabilities and finding situations where they can thrive. Yes, Brandy, really appreciate you and our friendship and our collegial professional relationship and our joint dedication to disability advocacy and activism. So wonderful to spend time with you today. I really appreciate you. Thank you so much. 33:18 Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WWW dot drkirk adams.com, 33:31 together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time. Keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

On this episode of Podcasts with Dr. Kirk Adams, Kirk sits down with ISDI co-founders Barbara Deane and Effenus Henderson to explore how the Institute for Sustainable Diversity & Inclusion is helping organizations move "from better arguments to better outcomes." The trio trace their shared history on Washington State's Governor's Committee on Disability Issues and Employment, then dive into the origins of the Northwest Diversity Learning Series, why 2025's sessions are built around the Aspen Institute's Better Arguments Framework, and how ISO 30415, the Global DEI Benchmarks and intercultural-competence research shape ISDI's evidence-based approach. Listeners will hear candid stories of corporate triumphs and HR "sticky situations," learn how sponsors co-design each year's curriculum, and discover practical ways to tackle today's backlash against DEI while keeping accessibility and systemic equity front-and-center. Whether you're an HR leader seeking new tools, a manager craving civil discourse, or a changemaker looking for a community of practice, this conversation offers both inspiration and a clear on-ramp to the 2025 NWDLS workshops. Tune in, take notes, and join the movement toward sustainable inclusion. TRANSCRIPT

Speaker 1 00:09

Music. Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams,

Speaker 2 00:37

welcome everybody to the cleverly titled podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, and that is me. I am Dr Kirk Adams, speaking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. And today I have two amazing guests, Barbara Dean and Ethan is Henderson. I'm going to tell you how we all got connected in a minute, and then ask them about their incredible journeys. Some years ago, when I was in the role of president and CEO of the satellite House for the Blind, before moving to New York and assuming that same role at American Foundation for the Blind, I was contacted by the transition team for Governor Jay Inslee when he was first elected and asked to serve on his transition team, and shortly thereafter, once he was installed as our governor, asked to join the Governor's Committee on disability issues and employment. And I don't remember FNS if it was the transition team or the Governor's Committee or the Governor's Committee, okay, but you and I spent a lot of time together, yes, and a lot of meetings, and I took a lot of notes whenever you talked, because you had a very deep knowledge about disability inclusion and Federal, State and local policies and the history of diversity, equity, inclusion, and I learned so much from you. And then, of course, in 2016 my wife and I relocated to New York City, and then Washington, DC, as I had the privilege and honor of leading the American Foundation for the Blind Helen Keller's organization through through a transition and a restructuring. And then when I had accomplished what I set out to accomplish, there, I returned home to our cozy little house here in Les, and I decided that I was ready to not lead an organization of that size and scope again. And I love nonprofits. I love nonprofit boards, but I was ready not to report to a nonprofit board for a while, so I decided to strike out on my own and just look for, I say, fun, innovative, high impact projects that would accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities and to work with people I really like. So that's what I'm doing now, and as I followed a blueprint that I discovered on how to launch a consulting business that said, reactivate your network and reach out to people that you trust, admire and respect, tell them what you're doing. So that's when I reached out to effin us on LinkedIn, and said, Remember me from the Governor's Committee. I'm back, and I'm looking for fun, innovative, high impact projects. And he introduced me to Barbara Dean, and Barbara, I think you have, might have got me my first paid training opportunity with Delta Dental of Washington. And I had a chance to talk to all of their HR professionals across their network about disability inclusion on a virtual Zoom meeting. And they asked me how much I would charge. I didn't really know what to say, so I said something, and they paid that was, that was the start of my consulting practice. So I think I have you you to thank Barbara for getting that ball rolling. That sounds good. Yeah. Fast forward a year and a half or so, and fell, fell into deeper conversation about Barbara and FNS, and learned about the Institute for Sustainable diversity and inclusion, which we all fondly call is di and the amazing history of the nonprofit is the place it has held in Our community, not only in Seattle, but nationally, the amazing board members and their their depth and breadth of knowledge and experience, and although I swore I would never join another board again, I have happily and graciously and with great gratitude. Um. Been elected to serve on the board of the Institute for Sustainable diversity inclusion is di and we are really in the right place at the right time, our community, our country, our society, needs organizations and expertise and leaders that we can rally around and catalyze as we pursue our quest for social justice and fairness and equity. And is di has a lot of experience and history in that space. So we are boldly proclaiming we are here, and we want you to join us and organize and catalyze and learn, and we do have a series of learning opportunities coming up that we'll talk about later. But for now, I would love to just get a taste for from you, Barbara and effin us about your journeys in this space. You are both social justice warriors, and you've done all every time we talk you, something new comes up that you've done a group, you've been involved with a committee, you've been on a some vital foundational documents you've crafted. So I think Barbara, if you, if you would give us the tour,

06:27

tour of your life,

Speaker 2 06:32

and what, what brought you to this point with, with being a leader, at at ISD, and really being having such clarity that is di is such a vital resource

06:43

for our community. Sure,

Speaker 3 06:45

you know the way that you described our connection, where I connected you with Delta Dental for your first consulting gig. So those are the kinds of connections I've been making since about 1988 so in 1988 my husband and business partner and I launched a newsletter, one of the first newsletters in the country on workforce diversity, and it the first The first name was training and culture newsletter. That didn't inspire anybody very much. But about three years in, we changed the name to cultural diversity at work, and it just took off. And also, there was just a, you know, there was, there was something happening in the country with organizations realizing that the workforce was, was just becoming much more diverse, and they needed they needed help. They needed information. They needed guidance on how to be effective with this, this workforce. So I started my career in this space, although it's hard, you know, it's hard to pinpoint the starting of a career, because careers develop over time. And that's also another little, little thing I have in my background is that I've been a career development advisor and coach so and I've developed and taught career planning courses. So I'm going to go way, way, way back, because I think this, I think it's fundamental what happens to you in your growing up years. And so my parents were from New England, moved to Ohio, and they basically were were in a cross cultural experience, because life and culture in New England and Massachusetts was very different from Northwestern Ohio. And my father used to say that that the personalities of the people in Ohio were about as flat as the land. And that was just his way of describing difference, right? Because he had been raised in Massachusetts, of course, where there are mountains and hills and valleys and and he just found, you know, that people were different in Ohio. And this is this is true all across our country. So I had my experience in my own family of difference, and then I was introduced to cultural differences by my parents with the National Geographic magazine. So that magazine coming into our home, and in those days, we didn't have television, so magazines were, were, you know, they were a vehicle, a window into the larger world. And I became very, very interested in all the people that were in the National Geographic Magazine. Mean, so you know, this is, this is how you get started on a on a career track. And so as I went to school, I just began asking questions about cultural differences. I remember at Ohio State University I was, I was in a class on organizational communication, and the young, ta, very smart guy, I said, How do you know these models and these theories work in in an organization in Mexico, for example? And he couldn't answer the question. And so I just kept asking those kinds of questions. I had just been sensitized to cultural differences, and it made me ask different kinds of questions. So when I got to the University of Washington, and I was a TA in as a teaching intercult interpersonal communication. I asked my advisors, Gary D'Angelo for one, Jon Stewart for the other. I said, you know, you're teaching a a type of communication, a style of communication, but it's really a white middle class style. Do Are you? Are you aware that you're doing that? Well, they had no awareness whatsoever. And so I designed this exercise in my class. Scared my advisors after death, but I designed this exercise about how white people talk. And I asked my my class, which was 30% people of color, international students, I asked them to help me, help us understand that these differences in communication. And so they agreed to go on videotape, and they talked about their experience of communicating with white people in the United States, particularly, you know, often white middle class people, and we use that as an exercise to learn about communication and to learn that about learn that we had been we had been taught a style of communicating, and that style was connected to our our economic level, it was connected to our racial and cultural makeup. It was connected to gender. There were just all kinds of connections. And so I just, you know, I just began asking the question, how, how would a cultural lens inform this exercise from a DI in a different way? And so, so, you know, that takes me to about 1988 when I got pulled into a a training effort at the University of Washington. There had been a racial incident in the dental school, and the dean of the dental school and the staff training development person agreed that there should be an innovation intervention and there should be education. And so I became one of the trainers in that effort to try and help people understand why, why making fun of black people wasn't necessarily a, you know, a respectful idea and and as I watched this whole project evolve and develop, I just had all kinds of questions, how do you know this intervention is going to work? How do you know people respond to this kind of thing? And I I just began asking questions, and one day on the bus, I was sitting there and saying, You know what? I bet I'm not the only person with these questions. I bet there are people all over the world that have these questions. What if we did a newsletter about this kind of and that's how the newsletter got started. That was the, you know, the initial push for it, and, and we began publishing in 1988 and then I began, you know, living my life on the telephone, because in an email at that time, or, or zoom, and living my life on the telephone answering people's questions. You know, what? What does, what does diversity mean? Why are, why are we doing this? What? What? What benefit does it have to our organization and and so as people called me with their questions, every question was an article. And so we began publishing in 1988 began publishing about diversity in the workforce, what that meant, and so I spent 10 years doing that, and then in 1998 a colleague of mine decided to form the Northwest Diversity Learning Series with some key Companies and organizations here in the greater Seattle area, and then this became a a community. I always called it, and it's a it's an employee, it's an employer venture on leveraging, leveraging diversity, because all the employers wanted to understand this. Thing, how it affected them, and so we joined together, and we started teaching ourselves, and that's how the Northwest Diversity Learning Series got

Speaker 2 15:07

started, and it still continues to this day,

Speaker 3 15:11

continues to this day, 27 years. Good for you,

15:16

and that's an us,

Speaker 4 15:19

yes. Well, let me just start by saying that I've originally from North Carolina, grew up on a tobacco farm with my siblings, all 11 of them, eight, eight brothers and three sisters, and in a household where at the age of 13, my mom died from lupus, and so we had to help carry out. My father kept us together. So it was a story about survival, resilience and kind of looking forward in terms of our life stories. Mike,

15:53

where were you? Where were you in the birth order,

15:54

number five. Number five,

Speaker 4 15:57

I was I was in the middle. So about that time, you know, some of the things that teenagers would do, like play basketball and, you know, do those kinds of things, I was not able to do that, because we had kind of the dual role of, kind of the the elder sibling, right? So you had to help out, because the older ones had left a home and so forth. And so I went on to college, and during my couple of years, during the summers, I worked, this is where I got exposed to people impacted by disability. Disabilities I worked for in the summer at a program at

16:38

o'bara Training Center, which was a

Speaker 4 16:41

residential facility for kids with learning disabilities and so forth, and so it was kind of it was my first experience and exposure to that. I went on and graduated college in North Carolina, North Carolina, Central University. I met my wife there, and we got married, and I wasn't out looking when I was a senior in college, because I was, unfortunately, one of the ones with a very low draft lottery number. So I assumed that I would get drafted upon graduation, and as luck would have it, the the draft was ended the week I graduate, and so I and I'd already gone and taken the physical, and was prepared to go into the service, but I didn't want to go, because of all that was going on during that time, but I knew that I I would have to, so I went and ventured and out, and I went back home and worked with my dad for a couple of years in terms of helping to support the family, and Helen and I got married, I started a job in in North Carolina as a resource research assistance for a community action agency, Executive Director and and that's where I started to get really a little bit more indoctrinated into social justice, equity, diversity. That was a diversity at the time, was more social justice and civil rights and so forth, and community action, things to do, to engage with the communities so forth. And I, someone saw me and said, I think you could do this regional job for an organization. It was called the Nusa river regional development planning agency, and they were creating a new program for assistance with the senior citizens and so forth. They said you'd be a natural to help, help out, shape this group up and get them going. And so I think I probably did a job so well that they didn't like the fact at that time, it was more of an economic development. Maybe we're moving too fast with that. So I left that, but I remember it exposed me to working with people older and needing different kinds of care and so forth, so in terms of generational that helped me kind of get that type of perspective. Someone there, a friend of mine, saw me and said, there's a job for a personnel rep at warehouse or company and you you might be perfect for the role that they're looking for. They were looking for like a entry level personnel rep to do a lot of recruiting and so forth in North Carolina. In North Carolina, okay, so I applied, and was off, offered the job on the spot, and I worked in Plymouth, North Carolina, very small rural community, and one of the things that I learned while I worked there as a representative was perceptions that appearances and so forth. And I recall having a friend of mine come to visit me. He happened to be a local reporter for television station. And and he drove up in his car with all of the signage on the side of the car. And I didn't realize that he did that in terms of what he came in, but I went into my office and shut the door and all panic. It started to happen in in the office, because people didn't know exactly what I was doing, and they were still very sensitive about racial issues, because the plant itself had one side of it was heavily populated by African Americans, and the other side was white. One was the pulp paper mill, which was the higher paying jobs, and the sawmill, the lumber mill and Timberlands, was the side where more of the African American employees. So it started to give me a sense of social justice, and why, why were some people on one side and the other So, and there wasn't an agreement with the government that, that, you know, they changed that, you know, there was a conciliation agreement of sorts. And so I was brought in to help with that whole transition and that process as well. And then from there, I started to do more college recruiting. I i recall that in a meeting I was at, one of the vice presidents came down to visit and was talking about all of the things that the company was doing to support affirmative action at that time, and so in equal employment opportunity, and they he was just talking about how, how well they felt about what they were doing. And I think I remember raising my hands, excuse me, but I don't happen to see any of these people you're talking about? Can you illuminate on some of whom these people are? Because, quite frankly, I haven't seen them, and I'd like to know, and it stumbled him, because he couldn't come up with an answer, right? But two weeks later, I got offered a job to come to Seattle, and so I came to Seattle as the college relations and recruiting manager, where I over saw the company's college relations program and summer internship programs for the entire company and all of its operations and so forth for a couple of years. And I wanted to then shift into more of a generalist role, because that was a specialty role. And so I was recruited back to New Jersey for warehousing to head up our regional sales office Human Resource Function. So I worked there. And then several years later, I got promoted back to Seattle as the overall HR director for that division and so forth. And from there, I moved into an international role where I was the international HR director, and that was during the early 80s, and I attribute a lot of the growth in the understanding about diversity, to a conversation I had with a person by the name of Louis Briggs. And I still am in contact and work with him on issues today. Louis Griggs is out. Was out of the San Francisco area. He and his wife, Lenny Copeland, had had wanted to produce a series on going international. In fact, they had, had written and done that. And he was marketing this cassette series on, you know, intercultural, cross cultural, going international types of activities. And so I was saying, gee, there's some similarities in terms of civil rights and affirmative action and so forth. And so we got, I say, You should do a series like that, but more specifically focused on diversity issues. And so he went back, and we actually helped us to fund the series on valuing diversity, which was kind of one of the first video series, things of this nature, which got sold to a number of major corporations. And I think that's when that whole transition from affirmative action and compliance related work in this area started to blossom and so so so fast forward, back until the late 1990s i i was in the international role, and I moved we went through a process of what we call organization redesign, and I was on a redesign team for the HR function. And during that time, we created three basic categories within HR, one around shared services, where a lot of the transactional work was being centralized because of the emergent technology that was coming on board with PeopleSoft and systems like that, and the strategic partners, where we elevated. The role of HR professionals in the business to become strategic partners with their businesses. And then Centers of Expertise. We had several Centers of Expertise, like learning and development, training and education, recruiting, diversity and so forth. And so I was tapped to be the head of the the recruiting, staffing and Diversity Center of expertise and with the staff and so forth. So we worked there, and then as diversity became even more of a priority for the company, they decided that they wanted to and I lobbied for the creation of a Chief Diversity Officer role. And I remember my boss at the time saying, oh, that's kind of a laughable idea. What's that all about? We don't know what what that is, and it was kind of the infant stages of the function and the role. And Barbara will know two people, Fred Miller and Judith Katz, were the consultants that we had brought in to help work with the leadership team to do that, but since that time, and actually they decided to do it, we we created what we call a framework that's in terms of the pillars of action that we would take to to expedite the work In diversity, equity, inclusion, and how it fits Weyerhaeuser, and we did that, but one of the things we learned from that we didn't engage leadership in the way that we felt we should. And so we went back around and talked to leaders and had them do do more work, and we were probably one of the first companies to have a diversity as a part of the criteria for management incentive bonus programs based on, you know, achieving certain results in terms of workforce representation change in areas where they were substantially underutilized in their businesses and so forth. So we, we were the first to kind of do that kind of effort. So I worked in that role up until my retirement in 2013 that's when Barbara twisted my hand and said, Let's, let's form the Institute for Sustainable diversity and inclusion.

Speaker 2 27:16

So the Northwest Diversity Learning Series came for the formation of Disney, it

Speaker 4 27:21

did. It absolutely did. Yeah, Barbara had done that. And the discussion we'd had it had Barbara had moved it over to Bill hertan, who managed it for a few years, and then it moved from there to archbrite. At the time Barbara, I think it was the employers, Employers Association of Washington. Is that right? That's correct, yes. And so the question that Barbara and I grappled with, is this a profit making entity that we're going to create, or is it a nonprofit? And we both agreed we thought a nonprofit fit better, and so we went through the process of incorporating and founding the organization, and that's what we've been doing since that time. The other thing that I do, just as an aside, I am also and it's a fairly significant commitment, is that I am the CEO of my own consulting practice. Hinder works which I do, consulting work. My principal sector is the architectural industry, and have been providing a lot of support to architectural firms in terms of some of their HR and di work and so forth. So that's in a nutshell.

28:36

That's a bit that's a big nut.

Speaker 2 28:41

So, so Barbara, do you recall how you first encountered his work and what led you to, what led you to twist his arm? And, well,

Speaker 3 28:51

I had, we were reaching out to companies and organizations to join the series, and so I think effin is was still in the recruiting position, and so we reached out to Weyerhaeuser to join the series, and he, he's the one that that brought, you know, Weyerhaeuser in as the sponsor of the series. And then, then, you know, things developed, and he became the chief diversity officer. So, one of the things that we did with the series, and it was just a natural as part of the beginning, is we had this network of the the the diversity leaders and practitioners and organizations, and we would meet in the afternoons of the the series sessions in the morning. So the series was a bi monthly series. So there was a workshop every other month. And so this group of people started getting together, meeting in the afternoon to discuss what happened in the morning and to discuss our work. And that that group became a fundamental. Uh, part of the success of the Northwest Diversity Learning Series, because we were, we were learning as professionals in this field, and it was emerging field, you know, it was not, it was not established at time. And so, so I got to know efnes, I started working with him, and we stayed in touch. And then, when, when archbrite decided, I think both of us were, we were starting to meet with archbrite Just to help them with the series. And then, then they asked us if we would take it over. And so,

Speaker 2 30:38

so that's I was when I was the My role at President CEO, the Lighthouse for the Blind here in Seattle, we we engaged we called it Washington employers, the right precursor to archbish. We engaged them on a couple sticky HR situations. I value I value them. Yeah, yeah. So the Northwest Diversity Learning Series that's happening here in 2025 that people listening to this podcast can join in on and learn. It's very interesting and something new. I'm learning the first session with Michael Ressler from the Aspen Institute. We learned about a framework called the better arguments framework. And I know you chose that very intentionally to align with our turbulent argumentative times. So, you know, I'd like, I'd love to hear your take on how you chose the thematic structure around the better arguments framework. And if you could talk about the upcoming series events so people can get a taste of what they they they can take advantage of

31:45

if they so choose.

Speaker 3 31:48

Well, we were looking for we we had so we meet with our sponsors in the summertime to figure out what we're going to do next. And that's been going on for 27 years, meeting and making these decisions. And so in our meetings, in in in 2024 it was we got some real clear direction from some of our folks that they they felt that their people needed help communicating about these contentious issues. And so I'm, my background is, is in interpersonal communication. So I've had a lot of training and conflict resolution communication models, and I just didn't think that they were, you know, what we wanted. And so we began looking at all kinds of things, searching. And one day I came upon the better arguments project. And I thought, Hmm, that's really interesting. So that the the the mover and shaker of the better arguments project is a man by the name of Eric Liu, and he comes out of, I believe, Microsoft. And he, he had the view that that we needed. We didn't need to stop arguing. We needed better arguments. We needed to understand, you know, to be able to articulate why we felt the way we did. And so I just started reading up on him and the better arguments project. We called Michael Ressler. We talked with him. He went through it with us, and then he finally agreed to do the first session. So the the first session really laid the foundation for, you know, what is the what is the better arguments framework? How do you have better arguments? So, the the better arguments framework is built on, on three dimensions and five principles. So the three dimensions are, you have to, you have to pay attention to the these fundamental parts of every argument, which is historical context, emotional intelligence and power dynamics. And then, so that's the context that you work with. And then the better arguments process is based on five principles, and that is, take winning off the table, prioritize relationships, listen passionately, pay attention to context, embrace vulnerability and make room to transform. So we just thought this was a really good model for talking about contentious issues. And we we came up with a whole list of contentious issues in our society. At the moment, there's no shortage. And so our process was narrowing down what was, what were the, what were the issues that we really wanted to to talk about. And so we we've we finally decided on on five topics. We decided to do five workshops this year, three special events. Because there's so much turmoil, we wanted to have a little bit more on flexibility and nimbleness in responding to things as they they come up. So we did, we did our foundation session on the better arguments framework in February. Library are in March. In March, we did a session called di business strategies, needed or not, and we recruited the whole is the board who have incredible experience. And we did the session about, you know, why? Why diversity anyway? Why? Why is it needed? And that was that was illuminating. It was illuminating just in our conversations with the board as we prepared this session, we learned as we prepared this topic. So it was, it was an excellent session. And then so the next one coming up is may 14, and that is, immigrants. Do they take jobs away from US citizens? And I was just reading the New York Times yesterday, and sure enough, this trope, you know, somebody who's being interviewed says, you know, immigrants take jobs away from from US citizens. You know, it's when you really probe into that question. That's not really what happens. But you know, people, this is, this is the story that gets told. So we have a wonderful presenter who's has, you know, great experience working with immigrants in the country and and she's going to do our session. Her name is Jess Galvan and she's the daughter of Mexican American immigrants in this country. So, and then our last, our topic in September is meritocracy, that that is all over the place. I mean, you hear it every day. And then the final one is racism re examined. Is it over or not? And I think that will be very interesting. We've got, we've got a really excellent presenter for that one, and really helping people have some conversations about racism in a different way. So we're, we're really excited about this series, and it's an opportunity for people to learn to have conversations and and, and, you know, one of one of our participants had the experience. She took the better arguments framework to have a conversation with a family member and a friend, both of political persuasions, and she was surprised and pleased at how well the better arguments, framework and process work for her. They could have, they could have a meaningful conversation so it, you know, it does work.

Speaker 2 37:19

And the remaining sessions of the learning series will amplify and dig deeper into the better arguments framework, right? That's the structure

Speaker 3 37:28

each session is based on the better arguments framework. So each presenter has to work with that framework. So we work, we're working very hard with all of them to follow this process. We designed a an outline that they will follow. So, you know, we really structured this so that the framework would get used every single session, so people get, you know, multiple times to learn it and practice it.

37:57

Yeah, the

Speaker 2 38:00

the people listening who want to join in and learn the better arguments framework and dig into the topics of the learning series. How do people get involved? How do people sign up? People

Speaker 3 38:12

register. They can go to the ISD website, Ifor, sdi.org, and just registers a registration tab, and they can register right there. I

Speaker 2 38:23

numeral 4s, di Institute for Sustainable diversity and inclusion. That is so I didn't know Eric Lew was involved in better arguments framework. I know Eric, yeah. I know he started citizen University. That's right. I know he served, served our nation, the Clinton administration, at least as a domestic policy advisor, correct? He did. He's got a great TED talk. Yeah, I didn't realize that today. I learned something new every day. So good learning. You mentioned sponsors. You mentioned getting together with sponsors last summer to design the 2025, learning series. So tell me a little bit about sponsors, and who, who are sponsors, who should be sponsors, and what, what do, uh, sponsors do for the

39:13

cause? Definitely want to take that one. Why

39:17

don't you go ahead and take that one as well.

Speaker 4 39:21

But what I will say is that each year, we try to come up with themes and topics that resonate with our sponsors. And what we generally do is we put together a packet of information that talks about, you know what, what we're proposing for the series we invite, and the what we're proposing is based on the discussion, the conversations with representatives from the sponsoring organizations. We have several, we have several levels of sponsorship for companies and nonprofits and. We share what that looks like and what's available as a part of that, we've had sponsors in the past that have ranged from Nordstrom, which has been a significant signature sponsor for a number of years, others, like the Boeing company warehouse, has been in and out as well Alaska Airlines. So we actually, during the fall of the year identify the sponsors that we go out and share with them what we're planning and doing and invite them to join the series at one of the sponsorship level. They're different levels, and each level represents the number of people that could be invited to a particular session and so forth. Okay,

Speaker 2 40:44

so if I'm a sponsor that gives me the opportunity to invite my employees, my stakeholders, my donors, my board members, whoever my stakeholders may be, absolutely coming and experience the Learning Series. Okay,

40:58

right? Barbara, is there anything I missed?

Speaker 3 41:03

No, I just Yeah. I just want to emphasize that sponsorships have never been just about providing money from the very get go. We wanted sponsorships to be tied to people coming to and learning in the sessions. So every sponsorship you get X number of seats for your employees and managers, and they the series became, over time, a really strong resource for training and educating employees, diversity councils, Employee Resource Groups, employee business groups and managers. So So one of the things that that the the employees would often say is say our our supervisors need to be in this training, our managers need to be in this training. So so we went back to the sponsor, and they said, This is the kind of feedback we're getting from our, you know, your employees that are attending the sessions. And so I said, What if we, what if we make a concerted effort to recruit and get more more sponsors or more managers into these sessions? And that did happen. And so our most recent data is about 40% of the attendees are managers.

Speaker 2 42:20

Great, but any individual can attend. Don't need to be affiliated with a sponsor. You

Speaker 3 42:26

do not need to be affiliated with a sponsor. So if you go to register on the website, those are, that's, those are individual seats that you're purchasing. And also, I want to make sure that people understand that, that, you know, we've we have to collect a certain amount of money to stay solvent, but also we, we've offered lower pricing for nonprofits. We've ordered, offered lower pricing for tribal members, lower pricing for retirees, and lower prices for students. So we have, with our sponsor support, we are able to offer some lower rates for people in you know, not affiliated with organizations or organizations that are non profit.

43:09

That's That's fabulous. So

Speaker 4 43:12

what one of the other things I'd just like to point out too that's important that the series has been evolving over the years for a number of the years, in fact, up until COVID, all of the sessions were held in person at Nordstrom downtown, and they were very gracious host and sponsor for the series. When COVID hit, we had to kind of talk about, well, why do we what are we got to do now, right? And so we decided that we were going to go virtual. We weren't sure, unsure. We weren't too sure about it, but we did, and we found that by by going virtually, a lot of folks like that, there is kind of the loss of the personal interaction, and so, so we're trying to evaluate that, but for the distant future. This this venue allows a lot of folks to participate, who would, who might not, otherwise participate from places as far away as Florida and so forth. So we're really pleased by that. The other thing I'll say is that this year, given feedback, we're introducing the cohort, a cohort, cohort learning group, which will kick off in June, which will be six to our sessions for the balance of the year, for young practitioners who want to take a deeper dive in into di work and the things that they should be cognizant of as di champions and leaders and so forth. Oh,

Speaker 2 44:41

that's fabulous. So anyone listening to this podcast, you know a young, emerging leader, this is for them. I know I recently read a grant proposal evidence that you crafted us seeking support from Morgan Stanley. If, if you're with Morgan. Stanley vote yes funding that grant. But I know that you articulated some elements of the vision of the future of ISD. So let's, let's wave that magic wand and say that we obtain all the funding that is necessary to scale is the to have the impact that is needed in these trying times. What are some of the things you see for the future? Well, one of the things both of you

Speaker 4 45:30

but one of the things I'd just like to comment on that we haven't touched on is that Barbara and I both bring a fairly deep knowledge of di work, and we have both been involved in the development of of standards. Barbara with the Global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion benchmarks, and I served as the convener for the international organizations for standardizations. ISO standard, 30415, semicolon, 2021, which is the diversity and inclusion standard. And we believe, as we look forward, that increasingly organizations want tested frameworks and standards to help guide the development and sustainability of the work that they do in this area. And part of what we're trying to impress upon people that this isn't something that's performative, but that it's something that's very much integral to carrying out the mission, the vision of the organization, and that it goes beyond just employees, but to all stakeholders. So these frameworks help people gain a better understanding and appreciation for that, and we're going to be doing more about that as well. We're also going to be in a half we're looking specifically at research around, how do you counter this di under fire context that we're in? And so we've been putting together some special events, and we likely will have more this year, which helps people understand what's behind this pushback. What are the things that we can do? How do we message the importance of di and so forth, and so we think that's going to be a valuable add to the work that we're doing this year as well. Yeah,

Speaker 2 47:14

and I say assault rather than a pushback assault, that's just me, but that's fabulous. I know there's tools, so my ISO experiences in aerospace manufacturing, as the lighthouse here in Seattle has many, many blind and deaf, blind machinists making as 9100 quality aircraft parts. So I understand what that means, that there are standards, there are indicators that you're on the path to success. There are ways to test what you're doing. There are processes. So the ISO standard for for di What about valuable set of tools for people? So thank thank you for your work on that, and Barbara the global benchmarks again, including people, is the right thing to do from a moral, ethical standpoint, but it's also the right thing to do from an effective, effectiveness impact strategy standpoint for businesses, organizations, to deliver, like you said, evidence on their mission, vision of values, the best way they can. That's doing to include as many strengths as possible, which means including the whole spectrum of human contributions. So love the work you've both done, love to be part love, love to be joining the Mary band at this point, being on the is the board and just excited, and I think very motivated. And I think there are lots of people who are looking for a way to get involved, to to engage a place, a place to call home, a place to pitch in and contribute. And I would offer the Institute for Sustainable diversity, inclusion is the as that place

49:10

Sure. Could I add something? Right?

Speaker 3 49:13

I think one of the things that is the has done, and I think we're, you know, we're going to push it more as we as we move into this environment, and that is intercultural competence. So like it or not, the United States is a multicultural, multi racial, hopefully democracy continues. And so the diversity of our population just is. It exists, and it has for since the start of this country. And so we've been we've been trying to figure out how we deal with diversity our entire lives. And there have been advances and retractions and for. Forward and backward throughout our history. You can, you can read it anywhere. And so right now, there's a there's a model that I wrote about early on in 1988 and it has evolved. It was called the experiencing differences model. Now it's called the intercultural development continuum. So, and I know both of the both of the scholars that that contributed to developed and produced this model. So back in in 19 I was

50:34

taking notes when I talked to you too,

Speaker 3 50:39

I talked with Milton Bennett, who, who, who developed the first version of the model. It was called experiencing differences model. And he's, it was somebody asked him, can you tell us where the United States is? And he says, well, it's not really a a country model. But he said, If you force me to to answer, I would say it's in the stage of minimization, which is, which is a stage to to minimize differences. But today, I would say that the United States has reverted back to the second stage in the model called polarization, and that's where we recognize the differences. We don't like them, and we judge them to be inferior to who we are, and so that that basically the country has moved back into a earlier stage of the developmental model. And you know that it just, it just doesn't work very well for the reality of what we are. So I think one of the things that the the institute is going to think about as we move forward is, how can we help people understand and gain intercultural competency in this world that is becoming ever more diverse? And of course, diversity not only has to do with the diversity in our own country, but because of airplanes, diversity travels around the world at at great speed. And I used to remind the Boeing, the Boeing people, when we worked with Boeing. You, you all, you all facilitate international travel. You all facilitate international diversity and people moving around the globe. You all do that. That's part of what is the result of building airplanes. And so we have to become competent working with people different from ourselves. What a diplomat once said to me, you know, we have been come. We are competent in dealing with people like ourselves. We have to become competent in dealing with people who are different than we are. That's the next stage in adult development. I had that conversation 20 years ago. We are still in that that box, that bucket, so to speak, we need to learn to be more confident with the diversity around us, because it's not going away. That's right,

Speaker 2 53:02

the Northwest. Firstly, learning series is here as one way we can all work together again. Thank you Barbara, thank you Ethan, us for being here today. Love to have continue this conversation, and maybe in about six months toward the end of the year, see what's unfolded, see what's developed. That

53:20

would be very interesting.

Speaker 2 53:23

Yeah. So again, this is a podcast by Dr Kirk Adams, and I really I learned so much from both of you, whenever, whenever we speak. Now, now that I'm on the board, I have the opportunity to be in various meetings with both of you, and I always have my note taker at hand, because I always learn something from from both of you. I just treasure the opportunity to be part of his di and to bring these resources to the community sorely needed at this point in time. So here we are, and I will talk again later. Thank you again. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 1 54:07

Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams. We hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WWW dot drcker adams.com, together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time, keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

Supercharge Your Bottom Line TDI: April 24, 2025: Mai Ling Chan, CCC-SLP, PMP, Founder, Exceptional Leaders Network https://drkirkadams.com/sybl-tdi-04-24-2025/ In this episode of Supercharge Your Bottom Line Through Disability Inclusion, Dr. Adams speaks with Mai Ling Chan, MS, CCC-SLP, PMP — a speech-language pathologist turned tech entrepreneur and the founder of the Exceptional Leaders Network. Mai Ling brings a rare blend of clinical expertise, project-management rigor, and entrepreneurial know-how to the conversation. After 18 years of frontline SLP practice, she built and exited a therapy-staffing company, co-created the acclaimed Xceptional Leaders podcast, and now guides disability-focused founders and corporations on inclusive product design, branding, and market strategy through her consultancy, Mai Ling Chan LLC. Her Amazon best-selling Becoming an Exceptional Leader anthology series and the growing Exceptional Leaders Network spotlight innovators who turn lived disability experience into breakthrough solutions. In this episode, Dr. Adams explores: ✅ Mai Ling's journey from hospitality to graduate school at Arizona State University and why she pursued both the CCC-SLP and PMP credentials. ✅ The mission of the Exceptional Leaders Network and how community accelerates disability innovation. ✅ Key lessons from advising corporates and start-ups on accessibility, inclusive UX, and brand positioning. ✅ Opportunities for executives to translate disability inclusion into revenue growth and market differentiation. 🔗 Connect & Learn More Dr. Kirk Adams – Inclusion Strategy: https://drkirkadams.com Mai Ling Chan, LLC – Consulting & Speaking: https://mailingchan.com Exceptional Leaders Network – Community & Resources: https://mailingchan.com/eln Xceptional Leaders Podcast – Inspiring Interviews: https://xceptionalleaders.com If you're ready to supercharge your bottom line through disability inclusion, hit Subscribe, ring the bell 🔔, and share your thoughts in the comments! #DisabilityInclusion #Accessibility #InclusiveBusiness #SpeechLanguagePathology #Leadership #ProjectManagement #ExceptionalLeaders Transcript:

00:00

Music.

00:09

Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams.

00:37

So welcome everyone to Dr KURT ADAMS monthly livestream webinar, which I call supercharge your bottom line through Disability Inclusion. Today, I have wonderful guest, Mei Ling Chan. If you could just say hello, Mei Ling, and I'll turn it over to you shortly. Hello everyone. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me great and for those of you who don't know me, again, I'm Dr Kirk Adams. I'm talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington. I am the immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind, which was Helen Keller's organization, and I had the awe inspiring opportunity to sit at her desk. I moved to New York City

01:25

in 2016 to be become president of AFB. Prior to that, I held those same leadership roles at the lighthouse for the blind here in Seattle, which is a social enterprise employing hundreds of blind and deaf, blind people, interesting businesses, including aerospace manufacturing for all the Boeing aircraft. I have a PhD in leadership and change from Antioch University, and I focus my dissertation work on employment. I did an ethnographic study of blind adults employed at major American corporations, and interviewed a lot of really cool people working at a lot of companies whose names we all know, and I learned a lot from that experience about the factors that lead to successful employment for people who are blind and the barriers that still remain. So we we all have lots of work to do together to make the world of equitable place where everyone has the equal opportunity to thrive. And I do that by focusing on employment. I work with companies to help them accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in their workforce. I support disabled entrepreneurs and their entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial journeys. I help

02:51

small nonprofits scale beyond the founder stage. And in general, I

03:00

look for fun, innovative, high impact projects that will accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in our world. And I like to work with people I like and mailing. Mailing is one of those people we were introduced quite some time ago, and I've stayed in very close contact as she has developed her strategies. And what she's bringing to the world to accelerate inclusion and equity and social justice and all of those good things. So

03:31

would really like to spend the bulk of our time hearing from you mailing I can. I'll reserve the right to pop in and ask some clarifying questions. But would would love to hear about your journey so far, your background. What

03:49

energize you, energizes you and motivates you. Around disability inclusion, maybe some of the things you've tried, some of the things that have worked well, some of the things that you you learn from and where you're at now with ELN exceptional Leaders Network, which I'm privileged and proud to be part of, and then what your your vision of the future is. So I'm happy to hand you the the talking stick, 111, little comment I've learned a lot from Mei Ling. She she comes my as a totally blind person myself since age five, I they tend to look for information about blindness and visual impairment and assistive technologies that support people with visual impairment to help us be in fewer disabling situations through use of technology, but I was on a call with Mei Ling earlier in the week, where her guest speaker was using augmentative communication technology, which I'm I've had some exposure to, but really learning a lot more about because of my association with Mei Ling. So always some.

05:00

Thing new to learn, and that's what we're here for today, for those of you who are with us live, we'll provide ample time for question and answer, and for those of you who are viewing the archived recording, we will let you know how to get in touch with both of us. So Mei Ling, the floor is yours? Excellent. Thank you again. I'm so excited to be able to be on the show with you, and I will tell our listeners that I do have ADHD and I have my talking points in front of me, but if I start to become a runaway guest, which is a podcast guest that just goes on and on, please jump in. Dr Adams, okay, okay, great. I can't imagine me wanting to stop you from saying anything, but I will, I will, I will take that under advice you never know. But I also have learned a lot from Dr Adams, and we are currently working on the software that I am using for the exceptional Leaders Network, which he just joined with me, because there isn't a seamless interface with the jaws re screen reader. And so we're having some issues with accessing different areas, and I don't, I don't use one. And so this has been a really interesting journey for me to be a bridge between a very important user, which is, you know, one of my members and the tech team, and so this has been back and forth with emails. And so I'm really hopeful that this company is going to embrace, you know, the WCAG

06:32

requirements, and I'm looking forward to moving through this process together. And of course, I am name dropping Dr Adams, and that was that he was the former founder and president of the Black blind Association, and you know, hello, we've got somebody very important here, in addition to any other future users who maybe they're already trying to use the software and just not saying anything. So we're getting some good traction. So I just wanted to share that with your listeners. So

07:04

you're muted.

07:07

Well, take take us back to your girlhood in New Jersey. Let's go way back. I love that, yes. So I'm a Jersey girl who's stuck in the desert looking for my beach. That's what I've been saying. It's wild. I've been here 24

07:22

years now in the desert. I originally am from Keyport, New Jersey, a small little sailboat town, which is a beautiful area in Monmouth County. And I did not know how good I had it, because really, you know, 20 minutes and I'm at any beach, it was just crazy. And then I could also drive into New York City. And so I grew up seeing a lot of the the shows, you know, Les Mis I saw probably three or four times. I saw the Christmas ones. I saw the rockets, you know, I've been center, yeah, all of that. And then I came out to Arizona, and I was like, what it was like scratching a record.

08:01

So I've learned a lot, and I've learned to really just treasure, you know, being in New Jersey, young and I would say, you know, going to the beaches and going to the Garden State Art Center, which is an open amphitheater where you could hear the watch the concerts, and you were so close to the to the, you know, the singers and the performers. It's just incredible. So a lot of things have changed. Obviously, I've been out now for 26 years, but my connections and my culture is still very east coast, and people out here will be like, you know, I like you may. You're pretty direct, you're pretty blunt. And I was like, oh, that's the Jersey girl talking.

08:38

Did you become aware of

08:42

people with impairments, disabilities, and dynamics around disability

08:48

as a young person? It's a great question. So I was in I grew up in a very small town, one square mile was the town of keep where it still is, and I had exposure to one cousin, so actually, a friend's cousin who had a lot of believe it was mental disability, and I don't know, because I was so young then, and he was much bigger than me, so I'm a tiny girl. I'm only, like, barely five feet now, and he was a big, big kid, and there was a lot of sound and chaos coming from the other rooms, and I happened to be sitting next to him, he reached out and hit me. Didn't mean to, you know, it's a sensory overload, all that kind of stuff that you don't know about. And so after that, being a young kid, I was always scared, afraid, putting these in quotes of people who had, you know, physical like, if it looked like they had a mental disability, and you could tell. And back then, we used the word retarded, which we don't use now. And that was, you know, in my mind, like, oh, they are violent. And so that was really interesting for me. Wasn't until I went back to school, I went to college, obviously, you know, got education there, and then I got immersed in a lot of self contained classrooms. And so now, obviously, I have a whole different vision.

10:00

And understanding, you know, of all of the sensory inputs and things like that. But that's a great question some people

10:06

so at the college level, were you studying disability related?

10:11

Great question. Oh, nope, I was going for business. I was supposed to get into the school of business, and because I was not focusing on my studies enough, I got a temporary

10:23

admission, and I had to get, like, one more a and so I took a Latin basis class over the summer, and I got a B plus. So I did not, you know, fulfill the requirements. And so I was like, Okay, what am I gonna do now? I supposed to go in and do marketing, and I decided to go into the School of Communications, would look which look like fun, you know, public speaking and broadcasting. So I ended up getting my bachelor's degree there, and then started working for hotels. So I was working for Hyatt hotels for a while, not married, and then had the absolute blessing to stay home with my children and raise them. So I stayed home for 10 years with my two boys. And then my aunt, who is Colombian, she was working in inner city, New York, and she said, Mehmet, you should become a speech teacher. And I said, what is that? And by that point, we did have the internet, so I googled it, and I was like, Oh, this looks great, you know, I love talking, and I could work the kids schedules. And so then I put all my eggs in one basket, and I took some leveling classes out here at ASU, Arizona State University, and I got to know the professors, and somehow I got in. So I was one of 35 students for the master's program out of 300 applications. And I ended up loving both the school age or the school setting and also the medical so I did both tracks, and it was incredible. And so I got to do everything from, I'd say, preschool age, at home, early feeding, all through school age. And then I also kept doing the medical side on the weekends. And so I've also worked with geriatrics, adults trauma like post stroke, acute speech language therapy. What's the right speech language pathology? Yep. Mythology pathology, yeah. So the neurological side, swallowing, and then I loved AAC, which you brought up, which is alternative and on

12:14

augmentative communication, which is AAC. That was incredible. As technology, I love technology, and I got to work with a company in Santa Barbara on brain computer interface, which was absolutely amazing. So we had a little stint there. And then, since then, since 2020 I've been full time consulting, so being a bridge between companies and businesses and helping to connect all the dots, you know, the pieces of clinical versus like product creation, marketing, content, so companies that are on the disability technology space, or what type of companies? Yep, and even it's just, it's a lot of blur, like even private practice or writing a book, and that's kind of where all of this came out. I also started my own podcast. I've been doing that for seven years. It's called the exceptional leaders podcast spotlighting people like yourself who are amazing leaders in this space. And that was an amazing journey for me to just get one person and ask them all the questions I wanted. You know, I'm a very curious person, and so I love that entrepreneurial journey of the ups and downs. And you know what kept you connected to your vision, and where did you get the help? So in after my first year, I realized, as this was back seven years ago, not everybody was listening to podcasts. And I was like, you know, I don't want people to miss these amazing stories. So I decided to do an anthology. I did not know what that word was when I started, I said, I just want to take everyone's stories and put them together in a book. And someone's like, that's an anthology mate. So I started with 15 other authors, and each one told one chapter, and that was beautiful. And so then that started the becoming exceptional leader book series. And then since then, I've now published a focus on AAC leaders, a focus on SLP leaders, and then also a focus on Asian Pacific Islander leaders, with the connection of special education. And each one of these books have had their own audience and their own connection. And I'm just amazed at the value, because everybody loves storytelling. You know, that's really how you can really connect with someone, versus just a bunch of bullets right in a bunch of directions. It's just been globally accepted each of the books, and I'm just so excited. It's been such a blessing.

14:29

So consulting with companies, podcasting, writing books,

14:38

connecting with leaders, and

14:43

what was the genesis of the exceptional leaders network that I know you've just launched. Thank you. So about maybe eight to 10 years ago, I started seeing these subscription memberships, and this is something where you pay, you know, certain amount every month, and then you get access to a group.

15:00

A community, some type of learning system. And this is different than just a like one course webinar, or even if it's like a three day course, this is something where every month, you know, you're tapping into the whoever the content creator is. And when it first started, I thought this is an amazing idea, and I had been creating other companies at that time. I had a learning management system for continuing education. We had had one about reviewing apps, you know. So I really understood the idea of aggregating and bringing communities together. And I just kept watching this idea of subscription memberships. And I saw colleagues starting ones like, for example, the medical SLP group. So it's a bunch of speech therapists who are their expertise is in medical and you pay a certain subscription price a month, and you get access to them, and all of these resources, fantastic. So I just kept thinking about it, but I had imposter syndrome, and I think that's what a lot of us have, because, you know, we come into this. My profession is a speech language pathologist, so I am an expert in certain areas, for example, AAC, right? And I say expert, we're always learning, but I'm just saying, like, that's my area of expertise, right? And then when you talk about subscription memberships, you now have to be creating content, you know, providing information. And I never found the area of speech pathology that I felt that I was in excellence of you know, where people would say, Oh, I, you know, I go to May every month for this in, let's say AC or this area, and that's because I do have ADHD, and so I feel like I have not deep dive into any one area, because they all interest me, which has been a blessing and a curse, right? Call that multi passion, yes, yes. I call it my, my superpower.

16:42

But it can also take me back. It take me, yeah, take me back. So, so I kept having this, like imposter syndrome, like, you know, I'd love to do a membership, but what is it that I would do? You know, I'm not an expert. I'm not an expert. I kept, kind of, like telling myself that. And for your listeners, really, the words that you say to yourself are so important. So if you tell yourself that you are or aren't something, you're going to believe that. And so for years, I believe that I wasn't an expert in anything, and then I was a jack of all trades, master of none. But I finally, finally started to understand that my value is really in connecting people and being a bridge to information. And then I don't need to know everything. And it wasn't until that clicked for me Kirk, that I was able to say, Oh, I've been doing this the whole time, right? I've been bringing people together. I've been sharing information on how to grow your specific accessibility business, or your inclusive business, or become a brand which people are not using like so say you are somebody, who you

17:43

you, I'm thinking the word refer, but that's the word you represent. That's the word you represent, a little known diagnosis, you know, and you're telling the world about it. That's your brand. And so we don't, we don't know how to use these words. And so I've been working with people, one on one, and consulting with them, helping them to understand, like, you need to create a website, you need to get very succinct in your messaging, and, you know, you need to have a mailing list and all of these things. And I started to see this is what I do. You know, this is my value. And so, keeping with the exceptional leaders branding, which is what I've been doing with the podcast, and then also with the book, I created the exceptional Leaders Network, and it this has even been a slow grow because I didn't know what it would be. And so last August, yep, last August, I sent an email out to like, 100 of my closest people who I who I've been dealing with over the years in projects and podcasts and books, and I said, Look, I really think that we need a community where we support each other, we uplift each other, and we support each other's offerings, and we get it. We get each other right. We don't have to explain what is accessible mean. What does inclusive mean? And I said, I don't know what it's going to be, but I'd like to start it. And if you'd like to, you know, be a part of this founders group, let's do this. And so I had 25 people who said, Yes, it was crazy. And we started each month coming together and saying, you know, what kind of topics would be valuable? And I started creating agendas. Another thing that is my superpower power, and it's really because I have ADHD, is I am very organized, and so I have created all of these strategies to make sure that I show up on time, that I get projects done on time. And so being very organized, I was able to kind of see, you know, the pieces of what we were doing and how this could then grow into something much bigger. And so in the last couple of months, now, we have all different presentations or webinars. They're like 45 minutes where they are deep dives into different areas of small business creation and strategy and maintenance, but we also have the time where the people that are on the live calls, they get to share, and that's been so valuable. And you were saying this to Dr Adams that you got to to meet Brooke Brown, who was former Arizona Miss wheelchair on.

20:00

Yeah, yeah. And so you start to see each other, and you hear from each other what our successes are and our challenges are, and sharing tips, and that has just been priceless. I The

20:14

the several experiences I've had so far with ELN exceptional leaders network have been

20:21

it feels like entrepreneurship flavored with disability inclusion. Are those common themes? Is disability accessibility unifying theme? Or how would you describe kind of the framework that you're constructing under right? So I always say it's people with and without disabilities who are working towards accessibility and inclusion. Okay,

20:50

great. So that leads me to the next question of what, what?

20:55

What types of folks do you think would benefit from joining joining the Mary band, yes, exceptional leaders, yeah. So I'm calling them or calling us like brand ambassadors. So now I talk about ADHD as much as I can, right? Because this diagnosis that I feel everybody should be in touch with, I received my di my diagnosis about three years ago now, and honestly, it was very what's weird, like I finally did it, but in the back of my mind, I've, I think I've known I've had it for a while, right? But it didn't look like what a little boy looks like. So I wasn't really sure. And I feel that my messaging is that many women might have this diagnosis, and they don't know, because it just looks different for women, it presents different. And so I feel like me sharing this is really important. So the this is me identifying with a and I'm putting in quotes a disability, but this isn't my it's not the only thing that I do. And so that's why the people that are that I feel that would be navigating towards, you know, our exceptional leaders network are people who are coming out, and they are, you know, seeing the value of having a brand, having a platform, and the real piece is monetizing. And so you could be a speech therapist who has a private practice, or someone who has a disability who just wrote a book or created a product, special education teachers, you know, who have this great idea for a product or a software program, assisted technology developers. I mean, they're people all over the place, but we all come together because we are unified in this very, very special niche area of disability accessibility, inclusion. And so it's been really amazing because people are now collaborating with each other and going, Oh, that. You know, I would love to have Dr Adams on my podcast or so. And so is writing memoirs. And I would love to have her help me, because she gets, you know, my story and how it's different. And, yeah, it's been amazing. I'd like to touch on a couple things. So ADHD, I often talk to people about disability inclusion, and, you know, they're the terms I've been using are visible and non visible disability.

23:05

You know, when I walked into my first job interviews out of college with my long white cane and my Braille slate and stylus, no, it's in Braille, it was pretty obvious that I have

23:15

an impairment, a visual impairment,

23:19

70% or something, of significant disabilities are what, again, I was using the term non visible until about, until about a week ago, when I, when I read a pretty reason

23:33

argument that not non apparent is probably a better term. So would love to get your thoughts on a parent versus non apparent disability a little bit, and any of that, the dynamics that you've observed as a person with a non apparent disability, and then really curious about, what if anything changed for you when you when you had a formal diagnosis, like you said, you kind of you kind of sense there was something neurodiverse about yourself, but you did not have that diagnosis until about three years ago. Obviously, you're an adult, so I'm just really curious about what that felt like, and

24:14

pros, cons,

24:16

dynamics around around that Excellent. Thank you. This has been a very interesting journey for me, because it collided with doing my last book, which was becoming an exceptional API leader, which is Asian, Pacific Islander leader, and I had just completed my it's like an intake questionnaire, and as I was completing it, that's really where I knew that I was going to qualify, because most of Your symptoms will show up before the age of 12, when you're a girl. And so I had to really go back deep into my childhood. I'm now 50. I'll be 53 in May. And so going back and thinking about all of these different the questions that they asked, and some of them were like, oh, so, for example, I always had bruises up and down my legs. Kirk, because.

25:00

I was bumping into things. I was constantly just, I didn't know where my legs were, and then my arms were like octopus arms. And my family actually joked that when I came to a table and there were glasses out on the table, that they would all grab their glass and hold it, because inevitably, I was going to knock something over. Okay, that was really interesting, right? So I think about, like, these type of things, and then also I wouldn't stop talking. And my dad, literally, my dad is 100% Chinese, would be like, shut up. Would you stop talking? You know? And then I would just shrink and just be like, you know? And he was like, you haven't stopped saying something since you were born. You know, there's all these things that, like, the picture starts coming together for me, and that was wild. So as I'm answering these questions, I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's me, you know. Like, did you have trouble getting stuff done in school? I got to see every single semester in grade school, up until seventh grade, it was like, I'll just pick spelling, English, history, science, you know, each one because I just couldn't get it together. Couldn't get my projects done, you know, I wasn't organized. And back then, I don't know if you guys remember, like, Oh, that was like, latch key kids days, like, my parents didn't help me with my homework. They didn't get me, you know, it's not the helicopter parenting that we had now, so literally, I had to take care of everything myself. Well, my parents asked, Did you do your homework?

26:16

Yes,

26:18

yes. There's different kind of parenting. You know, my death was a mess. My room was a mess, like, it's just a mess. And so going through it, like, by the time I got done, I submitted the questionnaire, and I just sat there crying. I was like, Oh my gosh, I had ADHD all that time, and nobody helped me, and nobody saw it. And then the flip side of that is, as I'm going through and writing the book together with Dr Lily Chang, who is the founder of the Asian Pacific Islander caucus for the American Speech Language Hearing Association. She taught me, and I think I always knew this, but she taught me about face. And this is a concept Mansa, that in most of the Asian cultures, and even Southeast Asian cultures that that on the outside, you don't want public people to know what is going on for your family, because it is embarrassing, because you know you there's a certain level that you want to keep up in terms of reputation. And so this, it just permeates so many things, and it is so true. And so this is where perfectionism comes in and secrecy. And if you notice, like very the Asians DON'T LIKE SHARE, you know, their their family gossip, you know, things like that. I don't know if everybody knows, but this is actually, like an unsaid thing. And so disability is actually a something that runs through this where you don't want anyone to know that your child has a disability. I mean, you want them to think that your child's perfect, and so any disabilities will absolutely be, you know, hit under the table, and we're not going to talk about that. And so when I was learning about that, and then being able to look at my relationship with my dad, who's 100% Chinese from Hong Kong, now I realize that he was trying to discipline ADHD out of me. I'm just gonna let that hang there, like by yelling at me, you know, reprimanding me, taking things away, you know, giving me negative feedback. It's not gonna work. Obviously, we all know it's not gonna work. So that was amazing for me to be able to connect all that together. I have a good relationship with my dad. I love him. The death cutest little guy, and I've been able to see past you know that this is what he thought was best parenting techniques, but it was so damaging for me, Kirk, because I always feel like I'm not good enough. I'm not doing all this work. I should be doing better. What is wrong with me? That was the other thing my dad loved to ask rhetorical, rhetorical questions, what are you doing?

28:48

I'm like, a million things I don't know.

28:52

So that was really huge for me. And then writing the book and working with all of the different people in the API community. Now I understand that me telling this story is so important because other people go, Oh my gosh, that's my story too. You know, whether it's just connecting with hiding a disability in the family, or the family not accepting a neurological, you know, a neuro diverse, let's say ADHD, ADD autism, all of those. You know, it's very hard for some families because of this Asian influence and the intersection of this culture. So that's really interesting, yeah. Well, obviously you

29:30

figured out alternative techniques for yourself at this undiagnosed, neurodiverse set of characteristics. But you obviously are very, successful, one of 35 people out of 300 to get into your master's program and becoming a speech language pathologist, podcasting and writing books and things. From a I guess, probably from a psychosocial standpoint, super helpful to have a diagnosis. But then from a practical standpoint, are there two?

30:00

Tools or techniques that you've

30:02

come to embrace since the diagnosis that have been helpful to you. Yes, so I set up to eighth grade. I got a C but then there was a high school that I wanted to go to, and it was a private high school, and I had gone to private school too, but I wanted this high school, and my parents said you have to get straight A's if you're going to go to this high school. We know you can do it. We don't know what your problem is, but in order to stay in this high school, you have to get straight A's. And so, again, no one told me how. So I had to develop my own strategies, and that's really the word. And so I had my Trapper Keeper, my calendar, my my note cards. You know, I had to come up with all of these ways to keep myself organized. And that stayed with me almost to a fault, because I'm OCD on a lot of things now, where it's like, Oh, my God, this has to be like this, where I got to be packed like, three days in advance, and I gotta get all my vitamins together a month in advance. You know, it's, it's a little too much.

30:55

So that's like, the the old school way. And then now with technology, which was what your question was, I am on fire because I've got, like, my phone is beeping, My watch is vibrating, you know, like, you name it. I got things going on to keep me going, and I still will miss a meeting, believe it

31:13

or not, happens to the best. Yes, yes, and then AI, oh my gosh. AI is like, it's like, I can't even, I can't even explain, like I can maybe 5x what my productivity is on a daily basis. Now with AI, what are some of the common things you use AI for? So research is really important. So I do a lot of presentations now, and I'm kind of doing meta presentations, because it's aI presentations, right? How to use it as a speech language pathologist, how to use it as a small owner. And I actually do a lot of this research using all of the AI tools. I also am loving agentic AI, which is that you can have, there's a software program, there's a couple now, where you have four or five different agents, and they different things. So one does content writing, one does email writing, one does personal development, and they all connect with each other, so you don't have to have, like, one space for one topic. So that's just really powerful. I love those two things. And then chat GPT is changing all the time. Here we are in 2025

32:16

and we're, you know, just at the surface of what it can do. It's constantly updating

32:24

and back to the parent versus non apparent disabilities,

32:32

thinking about speech, and obviously Brooke on Monday, when she was making her presentation using

32:40

AAC

32:42

augmented and alternative. Yes, okay, communications. So it was pretty, pretty clear to me before I knew she was Miss wheelchair Arizona,

32:53

you know, hearing, hearing during the way she presented I was as a blind person, it was apparent to me that she has an impairment. And I want to take just a minute and talk about impairment and disability. So

33:09

I have a visual impairment, I'm totally blind. Some people have hearing impairments, mobility impairments, cognitive impairments, but impairment does not equal disability. I really like to talk about that a lot, especially with employers. And I'm, you know, I use two simple examples. One is, if I'm

33:30

leading a meeting and I am at the conference table and I have my agenda in Braille and my committee reports and my budget and Braille, I can read Braille as well as a sighted person could read print. So I'm not I'm not in a disabling situation. Then, even though my visual impairment is constant, however, if I sit down at a conference table and you hand me a stack of print materials, my visual impairment

34:01

does not fit with that built environment of print, so I am in a disabling situation. So we talk, I talk a lot about trying to minimize the disabling situations for people with impairments, and to have social, digital and built environments that lessen the instances of disabling situations. So I talk, talk about that. And then often, if I'm on a break big crowd, I'll say, and this may you would, you would clap, I'll say, if you're, if you're five feet tall or shorter, clap, and someone will clap. And I'll say, Well, if you walk into a room and there's a package on a shelf that's eight feet off the ground, your characteristic of your height does not fit with the built environment or that high shelf. So you're going to have to be creative. You're going to have to get a tool like a step stool, or you're going to have to find a teammate taller than you and create a team.

35:00

Uh in order, and then you may want to build a lower shelf so the situation doesn't happen again. So those are super some super simplistic examples. But

35:11

as far as the fit between people with impairments and speech and the fit with our our world. I'd love to just hear some of your top of mind reflections about that. Since that's an area of expertise for you, it's not it's not for me, but I'm really obviously interested in anyone with characteristics that fall outside the norm, and how we can be inclusive of everybody, everybody, everybody. I say,

35:45

you're going to love this. So I had the honor of being able to nominate some people for our recent Arizona State Speech and Hearing Association Annual Conference, and it just happened in April, and I nominated John Gomez, who's a good friend of mine, but also the producer of when I stutter, and it's now an internationally recognized documentary on adults who stutter. And he published this, I think, back in 2018 and it was after like, four or five years of interviewing and filming adults all around the country. And he is one of the pioneers of shifting speech language pathology to whole person centered, versus fixing someone who stutters, and this is a non apparent impairment. So that actually fits perfectly into, you know, what you're talking about. And in the film, it's it's fantastic, because people talk about trying all different types of therapies, like even the one that is like that camera was called the MVR thing or something like, It echoes back to them what they say. And that actually works for a little while, but then the brain just reconfigures and goes back to its initial states. It's amazing. And then also, like, where all these strategies the speech therapist teaches the the client to stop talking, start again. You know, use onboarding strategies. And they were just saying, like, how limiting it was and how it affected their self confidence and so many things. It was actually negative for some people, you know, and it made the in the profession to have to take a look at, is it our is our place that we want to fix people so that they don't have this impairment anymore? Or are we just trying to get people to the point where they are happy and they are communicating. And that's always been, what I fall back on in the field, is it doesn't matter what form of communication you're using, it's that you are effectively communicating. And you know you're communicating with another person, with your pet. You know it could be with just somebody that can or something that can accept it. But there is, there's also a lot of controversy that if you have an AAC device, you have to use the device, you have to press the symbol, versus just using your hands. Why can't you just press your by, you know, or vocalize, uh, and that's all you can get. But that means by, or that's closest to it. We also find that there's people who and then this is Brooke. She cannot, um, enunciate all of the sounds, and so she has helpers, and that her helper was not available for our session the other day, but they can interpret her vocalizations. And it's amazing. And so that person has become her assistive technology, right? Yes, yes, yes.

38:22

Um,

38:24

yes, you said the documentarian. Did you say John Gomez,

38:27

so, and whole whole person? What was the whole person centered? Yeah, whole person centered. Could you just talk a little bit more about that? What that means the whole person? So, an example is when I had a child, he was in fifth grade, and he kept coming in. He he had a stutter. He come and he'd say, Miss Chan, I don't want to leave my class. I'm working on a science project, or, you know, we're just doing something and and I'd say, okay, but you know, let's just go through this. And as he's telling me, he's experiencing moments of stuttering, and he's like, I don't need, I don't need the speech therapy. And so I went in and observed him, which is part of our responsibility, is to observe him with his peers, you know, in the classroom. And I said, this kid's doing great, you know, he's not really impacted, and he was getting good grades. And so those are the two markers that we can attach our speech therapy to in the school setting. Is that, you know, maybe socialization is impeding his ability to to participate in group activities, and then that affects him academically. So it always has to affect academics. So this was years ago, before we had the school person centered, and I had his family come in, and he's only in fifth grade. And every year you have an IEP, the individual education process meeting, and I had to help him come to it. And I said, you know, Johnny, how do you feel about speech therapy? He's like, it's a waste of my time, you know, I don't want to be there. Yeah. And I said, Okay, well, how do you feel about your grades? He's like, I don't know. I think I'm doing great. You know, I don't have any problems. We asked the teacher. Teacher says he's doing great. Does he have any issues with, you know, interacting with peers? Any self confidence issues? None.

40:00

And he wants to stop speech therapy. The parents do not want him to stop speech therapy. And so this was something that took me at least two years to get him off of my caseload, and I had reduced him down to just one hour a month, reduced consultation to the point where I could get him off of a full IEP and he can be out with the general kids, and so that's what Whole Person Centered is, is that is this person communicating, or, you know, being able to live at the level where they feel that they Right, right? Are they thriving exactly by their own deficit, their own definition of what thriving is, right? Yes. So let's talk about the IEP just for a second. If there's a parent, the child with a disability, a child with an impairment, listening to this, the individual education plan or education process, individual education process document is super, super important,

41:01

your child is entitled to that.

41:07

For blind kids, there's something called the expanded core curriculum, which the American Foundation for the Blind and Dr Phil Hatton developed many years ago. And it's the it's the good news as blind kids get at some point and say, Hey, blind kid, you got to learn everything the sighted kids learn, and nine more things, which is orientation of mobility, how to travel confidently and safely with the with the long white cane Braille, if that's appropriate,

41:35

assistive technology and advocacy, you need to Learn how to advocate for yourself, and I did not. I was not really taught that very well. I have some terrible stories about how not being able to advocate for myself that negatively impacted my life, but

41:56

having your child in those IEP meetings

41:59

from kindergarten on is really important. They can give feedback and input into the process as developmentally appropriate. They can say what they like and don't like when they're really little, and as they get older, they can really start being a leader in those settings.

42:19

I can remember being at a National Federation of the Blind of Washington meeting, talking about IEPs, and one of the moms said, you know, if I walked in there and there were six people and me, there were six experts, and they were telling me what was best for my kid. And I said, I'm not prepared. I didn't realize what this is going to be. I need to reschedule. And she said, I came back with seven people.

42:45

No, it still chokes me up, because she said, you know, we have to have it IEP meeting in the gym. That's where we're going to have it, just so I can have enough support to

42:56

achieve for my child. What what I need to achieve for my child? So the IEP is super important. Sounds like you've been involved in quite a number of those mailing so I just want to put that out there.

43:09

And I know that either one of us would be happy, delighted to talk to anyone who's with us live today or

43:18

viewing the recording about any or all of this. So let's, let's tell people how they can get in touch with us. And then I love mailing to hear a little about about your vision for the future of the exceptional leaders network.

43:32

So how can people best get in touch with you? Well, it's kind of amazing. My name, mailing Chan is pretty

43:40

popular in China,

43:42

but I was able to actually land mailing chan.com which is why, so please feel free to reach out to me at MLC, at mailing chan.com you can also find me on LinkedIn at mailing Chan and Instagram at mailing Chan, great, and for me, my name is not quite as Common, but I was able to get Dr Kirk adams.com so dr Kirk adams.com

44:06

or Kirk Adams PhD on LinkedIn, and

44:12

I spend my day

44:14

trying to move

44:17

inclusion of people with disabilities forward in all kinds of ways, small, small and large, serious and fun. So if it's something that you're interested in talking about with either one of us I know mailing I'm gonna I'm gonna speak for you. We would welcome a conversation

44:35

with anyone out there who wants to

44:39

help move things forward. Good of the order.

44:42

But before we, before we open it up for any questions from the people with us here today, I'd love to, love to hear a few minutes about your vision for Eln. I know, I know it started. I joined it. I've been to a couple meetings, been to, had a couple great experiences with.

45:00

Your guest speakers. And as you mentioned earlier, you and I are working through the accessibility issues with the membership platform that you're using, and we've got the vendor involved now, which is what you need to do. And so we're, we're doing, we're doing those things that

45:18

in the ELN world will make things more accessible for everybody. So what, where do you want to see things go?

45:25

Well, you know, we have to talk about the space that we're in right now and how it's being affected by the change in the federal programs. You know, the obliteration of di programs and the trickle down, reduction in funding for services. So many people like us are disability advocates, speech therapists and just people in this community, we're starting to look for independent paths to creating impact. You know, what are some other ways that we can do this and connect with people and also generate sustainable income? And that's a piece that I haven't been talking about for years. It's that we need to make money, and with that money, we can help more people, we can be more impactful. And so that's where I see the ELN network really coming together. Is I think we're small but mighty right now, but we are going anywhere, and we're just going to continue to grow as people like you, our listeners, are listening and finding out that there is support here from people who get what you are working on. And that's really hard, because I think in this time again, I talk about inclusivity, accessibility, this is becoming non negotiable. You know, for businesses, they can take away the DI programs, but the the requirements are always going to be there, and we need to continue to self advocate. And if you know, we know together, we are stronger. That's where I see the exceptional Leaders Network going growing is growing together. I like to say this is we need to look to our left and right and to lift each other up. And I feel that that is where the exceptional leaders network is placed,

46:53

wonderful. And I that that does lead me to reiterate, the laws are still the laws. The Americans with Disability Act is still the law section, 504508,

47:07

EEOC, there's

47:09

opportunity,

47:11

there's still the Civil Rights Act, there's still the laws. And

47:16

I just say keep, keep the faith. And like you just said, mailing be be, be innovative, and gather together in community, and let's look for creative solutions as groups of people who care.

47:31

Anyone with us today who would like to ask a question? I don't like chat because I just hear Jaws read it. So if you if you just want to unmute

47:41

and ask a question. Feel free.

47:44

I'm sorry. I thought I was unmuted already. There we go. Oh, right. So Kirk, Mei Ling, it's always a pleasure to be with you. Amazing Stories. Mei Ling, I really appreciated some of the

48:01

insights on how you were raised, and it really struck home to me. So thank you for sharing that.

48:10

One of the questions that I I would really love to get both of you to weigh in on,

48:16

there is a

48:20

there because of what's happening right now and some of the

48:24

things that we're seeing happening at the federal level. One of the things that I've been hearing from some of my colleagues who have disabilities, whether that's blind or autism or other things, is I don't feel comfortable advocating for myself right now,

48:44

or I get shut down when I'm asking for help. And there's this intimidation piece that seems to be happening

48:57

that I have to own for you I don't really understand, because when someone tries to intimidate me to shut up, that usually makes me talk louder, right? And I'm comfortable with that, but not everybody is like me, and so I'm really curious if you have

49:17

any strategies either that those people might be able to tap into who aren't feeling comfortable and advocating for themselves right now, or, quite honestly, if you got any advice for me who's trying to support them and and on that journey, right and trying to be both understanding and at The same time, push for you got to advocate. You can't let them shut you down. And so I hope that that's, yeah, well, my, my, my top of mind answer is, there's, there's,

49:55

there's a tolerance for being spiritedness. You.

50:00

And

50:03

this courteousness that's happening in our society right now, and I think that's not a not a big surprise. I think certain, certain people who,

50:16

for whatever reason, feel aggrieved, are feeling pretty emboldened to

50:24

speak, speak cruelly to other people.

50:30

And I think it's just important to acknowledge that that people have been permission, have been given permission to be pretty rude.

50:41

I think we've always had to choose our battles, our advocacy battles. And there's a such a thing as compassion fatigue. You can't, you can't try to take every micro aggression as a teachable moment. You know, when I'm in the TSA line with my wife and

51:00

they say,

51:01

can, can I see his ID?

51:05

You know, do I choose to just hand them my ID, or am I going to take a moment to

51:10

educate them that they should speak to me directly? So sometimes I sometimes I say, can speak to me directly? Sometimes I just hand the ID. Super, small example,

51:20

I think the answer, my default answer, to all of this stuff, is community.

51:27

You know, it's tough to do all this stuff alone, and don't, don't put yourself through it. You can, you can join a formal structure group, like exceptional Leaders Network, or you can find kindred spirits, and it's so much easier to find kindred spirits now, I grew up in teeny towns in the Pacific Northwest. I was the only blind kid in my schools. Never met a blind adult until well into my 20s,

51:57

who was a successful, thriving person

52:01

then wasn't taught advocacy skills, but with with the search tools we have today, the groups,

52:08

the American Council the blind has chapters. National Federation of the Blind has chapters.

52:14

There are recreational groups around people with various impairments.

52:20

Use a search engine and put in some terms and find, find, find some, some folks. I know there's the common find, find your tribe is a little bit of a buzz phrase nowadays, but don't, don't go it alone. Find someone that you can talk to about it, who has some shared experience, that you have some commonality with and those are my top of mind thoughts.

52:46

Eileen,

52:48

yeah, I have a really interesting experience. I had the opportunity to present about accessibility to small business owners. And

52:57

at the end of it, one of the participants said, you know, I don't understand why we have to make screen readers available for everyone. If I have an employee and they need something, why don't they just tell me? Why do I have to spend all this money to make it available for all the employees, and maybe there's only 1% that need it. And I was like, I just stood here talking to you for an hour about how important it was, and you have the audacity and ignorance to stand up and say that I was shocked. So I just want to give you that perspective is people just don't get it. So what I do tell people in this is to answer your your question, Jeremy, is to say this, these are the needs that I have, and this is what I need. And so specifically saying I need a Jaws, or whatever the screen reader is that you like, this is what I need. You know, I am vertically challenged, and I need to have, like I do. I have a child's chair, a child sized chair, so that I can fit, you know, anatomically at my desk. I need this, like, making that list of things and sharing those. Now, I don't know if you want to share that in the interview. You know, giving them these are all the things that I'm going to need. But I have no problem with saying and this is from the other side, so I am still like on that employee side, but as a consultant, I do offer. I have ADHD, and I'm using all of these tools and strategies, but if I don't show up for a meeting, feel free to ping me, you know, just letting them know I'm okay with that. You know, Text me, email me, whatever that is. If I'm late for something, don't think that you know that I remembered or something. And most of the time they don't have to do that. Just want you guys to know, because that's the other thing, is, you don't know. Do you want to be telling people these, you know, these issues that you might be having, and then they don't want to work with you? But if you know yourself, and you know you are true to your word. Of course, you're going to try to show up, you know, the best that you can. And so I don't think there's an issue with sharing earlier. You know, in these conversations with employers, what your needs are, and you know how you are working through them and what you need to be able to produce, you know, at your best level. Yeah. But.

55:00

As far as that of disclosing your disability and the employment journey,

55:04

I've

55:06

tried both strategies, not revealing until the last minute when I walk into the in person interview, which didn't go well for me, or disclosing up front again my cover letter, and that even went worse. But I think now that I'm old, older and wiser, the person may not legally be able to ask you about your disability, but if you have one, it's a great strategy to talk about it and talk about how it's a strength, how you've developed strengths, how you have unique capabilities and unique experiences because of it, and how it will not, hello, will not create problems for the employer. It's going to bring valuable assets to the table for the employer. And you might say, Hey, I got my masters and such and such, and I use this, this and this, and that's the exact same tools I'll use to do this job. And

55:59

you know, the vocational rehabilitation system will pay for it, or mailings may say you, you notice I'm a short person, all I need is this a chair. It's not going to cost any small chair doesn't cost any more than a big chair. All I need is this chair. So you might, you might think about acknowledging it and putting it terms of strengths as counseling or meeting with some high supply and high school kids last summer, and there was a really sharp young cat. He was applying for jobs.

56:29

18 years old. Lived in a small town in eastern Washington.

56:35

I went to college in a small town in eastern Washington. So I said, you know, there's gonna be 100 kids applying for this job, and they're gonna all have the exact same thing on that resume, but, but,

56:48

but I will guarantee you that you have something unique that they don't have. So I don't know what it is. Maybe you babysat your younger siblings. Maybe you worked the chores on the farm. Maybe you did a really cool science project as a blind person, but illustrate, illustrate your differences. Stand out. Be proud.

57:13

With that mailing, I am going to have to bid you adieu until next time it's been this hour flew by,

57:22

and I greatly appreciate you being here today.

57:26

Thank you. This was way too much fun, and I don't

57:30

want to we'll do another hour. Let's do another hour in the fall. See, see how far you've gotten. Exceptional leaders, network, beautiful and everybody join. It's fun.

57:41

See you next month, the final Thursday in May, at the same time love in Pacific, or my monthly livestream webinar, supercharge your bottom line through Disability Inclusion. Have a great day, everybody. Thank you. Thank you.

57:59

Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a review at WWW dot DRK adams.com,

58:12

together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time. Keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

Dr. LaMondré Pough is an internationally recognized speaker, entrepreneur, and disability rights advocate whose work sits at the intersection of leadership, inclusion, and lived experience. As the CEO of Billion Strong, a global nonprofit uniting people with disabilities across cultures and continents, he champions empowerment, identity, and collective voice. He also serves as the Chief Sustainability Officer for Ruh Global IMPACT and Chairman of Arts Access South Carolina, leveraging these platforms to advance equity in everything from digital inclusion to cultural accessibility. Born with spinal muscular atrophy and navigating the world as a Black man with a disability, Dr. Pough brings a deeply personal, intersectional lens to every conversation he leads. He is known for his powerful storytelling, his commitment to authentic leadership, and his unwavering belief that true inclusion begins with honoring lived experiences. Whether he's training organizations, hosting one of his podcasts like My Big Full Authentic Life, or mentoring future leaders, Dr. Pough is a passionate force for transformation—helping others not just survive, but thrive with purpose. TRANSCRIPT:

00:00

Music.

00:09

Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams.

00:38

Welcome everybody to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, I am said, Dr Kirk Adams, talking to you from my home office in Seattle, Washington, where rain is lashing against the windows of my office here and with me today, I have lamondre Pugh mondre is an authentic leadership advocate and professional speaker. I have had the privilege of getting to know a bit over the past couple of years. We

01:10

broke bread together here in Seattle last summer when he was here speaking at a conference. So great to connect with you again virtually. Lamondre Listen. It's a it's a pleasure to be with you, Kirk as always. And I'll just give a super, uh, top level headline for those listening who might not know who I am. I am again, Dr Kirk Adams, I'm immediate past president and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind, which is Helen Keller's organization. I was proud to lead that organization. Prior to that, the same roles here at the Lighthouse for the Blind in Seattle, which is a social enterprise employing blind and deaf, blind people in a variety of businesses and supporting people in thriving, thriving careers. I hold a PhD in leadership and change from Antioch University, where I did an for my dissertation, I did an ethnographic study of blind adults successfully employed in large American corporations. I learned a lot through that process about the success factors for employment people who are blind, and the barriers which I've certainly experienced myself in my life as a frustrated, disabled job seeker, disabled employee of a major corporation or two, and then in those leadership roles at some major nonprofits, where I had the opportunity to employ a lot of people who are blind

02:41

and lamondre and I encountered one another as our advocacy paths intersected, and I asked him to join me today and to talk a little bit about his Journey.

02:59

My impairment, personally, is visual. I my retina is detached when I was five, and so I am totally blind. And as as we know, an impairment does not necessarily equal disability. That we are placed in disabling situations when the environment we're in, digital, social built

03:21

does not fit well with our personal characteristics. So the little example I use often is if I'm running a board meeting and I have my agenda and my financials and my midi reports in Braille,

03:36

my impairment doesn't matter. I'm not in a disabling situation at all. I can run the meeting as well as anyone that does not have said impairment. However, if you hand me a stack of print material, I my impairment does not fit well with the built environment of visual print. So that that puts me that's a disabling situation. So as lamondre and I have gotten to know each other,

04:05

we I believe we share the philosophy that

04:10

the lived experience of these disabling situations allows us to develop some really unique strengths in the areas of resilience and creativity and problem solving. And, you know, I had the privilege of seeing lamondre lead a conference session, and I got to hear some of his words of wisdom that he's gained through his life experience as a person with impairments and the discipline disable these situations we find ourselves in. So lamondre, you know, I don't have any set agenda here today. I just really would love to hear from you your journey, what's brought you to the point you're at now, what, what you're currently focused on, and what, what your vision for your future is, Where, where are you headed? What are you going to be accomplishing? A.

05:00

So down the road here, oh, absolutely, I will just hand the talking stick to you, and I will reserve the right to interrupt you with questions as you speak. So thanks so much for being here. Oh, no man, listen. Thank you first of all for inviting me to your platform at any time that we have the opportunity to get together. I always learn something from you. I always learn something new about you, and it's always it's always a really refreshing conversation. So I appreciate the person that you are on, the journey that you've been on, and how you're willing to share, how you're willing to share your insights and your experiences, and it's really about lifting others up, and honestly, that's what my journey is about. I like you. Am a person with a disability. I have spinal muscular atrophy as a result of spinal muscular atrophy, I'm a full time wheelchair user.

05:58

I need assistance with everything in terms of, you know, anything physical, bathing, getting out of bed, feeding, all of those things I need assistance with. The only things that I really don't need very much help with is thinking and speaking. And so I'm one person who believes that you lean into your strengths, and that's probably where I became a speaker, because I am leaning in to the strength of this big mouth that I have,

06:25

but what I've committed myself to is I committed myself to really helping people live more empowered lives, and I created this philosophy that I live by. It's called the live, big, live full and live authentic philosophy, and we can talk a little bit more about that as it progresses, but what that was, or the way that that came about, was me really trying to navigate a world where things are not necessarily set up for people like me. And I'm talking physically, I'm talking socially, I'm even talking economically, and what I realized was that I am truly responsible for my own outcomes, but having said that, I also must stand up, assert and advocate for the change that we want to see. And because of that, this philosophy really was birthed out of me just living my life the way that I had to, with all those compensatory skills that kick in and and those ways of finding unique and innovative solutions to problems that can cease being a problem once we figure out a way to accommodate for those things. And what I'm doing now is I'm simply teaching organizations and individuals how to apply this philosophy to create number one, leaders that lead from a place of value, that lead from a place of integrity, and who really want to have a positive impact in their world. But then the other thing about that is not only just to develop those leaders, but to help create environment where people can really develop a sense of belonging and begin to thrive, regardless as to what societal barriers have been put in front of them. So that's me in a nutshell. Do a lot of advocating in terms of disabilities, working with number of different organizations in terms of volunteering and just helping to make the world a better place overall.

08:36

And lamondre,

08:38

you just talked about helping organizations develop leaders that are coming from authentic places. I'm paraphrasing, can you? Can you? Leadership is something I am very interested in

08:53

as I transition from the corporate world of banking and finance after my first 10 years of the work world, into the nonprofit sector, and really got clear that I should be in the nonprofit sector, and I should be in leadership roles, and I should be working to create opportunities for other people with disabilities to thrive. I saw a leadership voice, a leadership vacuum. I saw people in nominal leadership roles, CEOs and executive directors, who were very much maintaining a status quo,

09:35

who were very risk averse.

09:38

I didn't see a lot of innovation and creativity at the leadership level. So I love for you to talk about leadership, what what it means to you, how you embrace your leadership opportunities and and how do you work with organizations through your advocacy to help strengthen leadership?

10:00

Uh, what, what, whatever you want to talk about in the broad category of leadership. I'd love to hear it. No, okay, I and I appreciate that too. Well, you know, I like you.

10:11

I believe, or let me say this, I did indeed see a vacuum in leadership, and now I actually see what I believe is a crisis in leadership, not just in the disability community, but across the board. You know, we live in a very

10:30

social media driven environment right now, and as much as we, as much as we don't, might not necessarily want to admit it, I think we have seen how platform and how

10:45

the desire for likes and follow followers, and

10:50

I would say

10:52

affirmation from others has really created problems for us. We see people that confuse platform with integrity, or the fact that you have a high follower count means that you are an authority to be listened to and to give credibility to and honestly. Those things are not necessarily true.

11:19

We see instances playing out before us every day, of people who are in leadership positions, who have the title, but they don't necessarily have the empathy, the capacity, or even the will to really lead for positive change. Now we see a lot of people doing things that's really about, as as my folks from Jamaica would say about beating themselves up. But the truth is that is not what leadership in my in my estimation of it really is, because I recognize that people have different definitions for what leadership is. And for me, leadership is really about influence. And I like to say authentic leadership is really about positive influence, about leadership that is based in integrity, about people who are guided by their values, their principles and their beliefs in order to create a positive impact in the world to find to make the human condition better than what they found it in and this is the kind of leadership that I believe that we are missing. I believe that this is the kind of leadership that is going to be required in order for us to really advance just as as people, to really save this planet in order to

12:45

I really speak to the good of humanity. I'll put it that way, and and this is the mission that I'm on. And obviously, even throughout my years, you know, advocating within the disability community, we've seen that now I've met some incredible leaders who have poured into me, who have who have given me opportunities, and who have opened doors, and now I feel like it's my job to help do that with others, and that's the mission. That's the mission that I'm on

13:15

in your role

13:17

of influence, your opportunities to influence, we know you're a professional speaker, so you you get in front of audiences, and so if you're in front of an audience of, say, corporate senior managers at a company,

13:32

what give us a taste of the types of messages and communications that that you share in order To help move things toward that I that ideal picture of authentic leadership that you just described absolutely well. First of all, again, I go back to being authentic, being real about who you are and what it is that you want to contribute. How do you want to serve? How do you want the world? How do you want to show up in the world in terms of you as an individual, in terms of your organization, and what impact, what impact are you looking to make? And what I do is I customize things, but I find what it is that they want to do, where they want to go, and my goal is to help them achieve that. Now, the other piece of what I do in helping them achieve that is I believe that number one, a part of our strength is our diversity. I believe that when you really embrace our differences, when you really embrace different thoughts, different perspectives, different lived experiences, that is the engine that drives innovation. As you said earlier in your opening statement, Kirk, we talk about, you know, people with disabilities being problem solvers. Well, guess what? We're problem solvers, because we have to be. We have to figure out ways to traverse a world that was not necessarily designed by us, for us, but nonetheless, if we still want to.

15:00

Have an impact. If we still want to survive and not only survive but thrive, we've got to come up with some innovative solutions. And that just does not stop because we figured out how you can access documents or how I can access a curb cut. It doesn't stop there. That innovation, that problem solving skills, goes throughout every aspect of my life, and it's not just people with disabilities, it's also other people who may have been from traditionally marginalized communities, they've had to develop some compensatory skills. So why not take those skills and apply them to make your company better? Why not take those skills and apply that to increase your bottom line? Why not take those skills and apply them to make your place of business a place where people want to work, where they feel seen, heard and appreciated, and want to give you their very best. You want the kind of people in your organization where they could leave, start their own, do their own thing, but they don't want to, because they love the impact that you're making, and they love the contribution that you're given to their lives. That's the kind of organizations that I help people build wonderful so you say you customize, which makes total sense, depending on who the audience is, and say, wanting to find out what what they're trying to accomplish.

16:33

Up to you whether you name names or not, name names. But can you just think of an organization you worked with and you customize an approach? And give us just a little sense of how you would work. Work with an organization that engages you as a as a speaker, absolutely. Well, there's several different organizations that I have worked with, and they range from corporations all the way to nonprofit organizations, even to some governmental entities, and every situation is different. Now, primarily, I'm a trainer and a speaker. That's what I do. I go in an organization, and if they have a need for a training, that's what we do, and we build trainings specifically for them. I just recently, just last week, two weeks ago, did a workshop, an intensive workshop, for an advocacy organization who's really trying to deal with the struggles that's happening right now. They're an advocacy or an advocacy organization that really about helping people with disabilities to live their lives more independently and obviously with what's happening in the States right now, there's a big threat that they're facing in terms of funding, in terms of in terms of how they actually get a major part of their budget. And their leaders are obviously stressed. Their leaders are trying to figure out, how do they keep their How do they keep their teams motivated and engaged in times of uncertainty? So I have this thing that I created. It's called the real power framework, and basically it is the nine pillars of what I call authentic leadership. Okay, now we're now, we're getting there. Absolutely it's the nine pillars of authentic leadership, and what I did with them. And what are those nine pillars? I'm glad you asked Kurt, number one, it's real power. Real Power is an acronym, so the acronym spells out real power. All right, so I'm taking notes. All right. Here we go. The first one is rooted, and this is being rooted in your values and self awareness understanding who you are, because in order to lead authentically, you must first know who you are and be a person that's led by your core values. The second thing is the E empowered, empowered through emotional clarity and emotional connection. So we're talking about the empathy part. We're talking about emotional intelligence, about being able to understand where you are and understand where other people are and what triggers them and what triggers you, and having measured responses to that, then the next letter is the A in real and that's accountability, being true to your word and your vision, making certain that you stick to what the mission of the organization is, and even your own personal mission, and that you show up and you're consistent in following through with what you said. Then the next thing is the L, and that's leading in action. That's about leading with intentionality that is not just ideas, but we're looking to for ways that we can lead and be effective in what it is that we're doing. Now, the P in power stands for psychological safety, and this is about creating the environments, creating rules.

20:00

Rooms where others feel seen and heard, but in an authentic way, in a real way, not this, not this, not this fake optimism thing, but really creating environments where people can express what they're thinking, what they're feeling, what they're experiencing, without being judged, or without feeling that there may be some kind of retaliation, in other words, creating safe spaces for the people that you're serving by leading. Then the next one is the O, because that was P O. So the O is for being open, being open to feedback, being open to growth, being open to change. There is

20:46

so many things. There are so many things that's going on right now in terms of how quickly change is coming. Now, we can hunker down and cower, or we can just accept the fact that change is inevitable, and in order for us to not only survive but to thrive in it, we have to be open to change and figure out how our vision can best support the mission of what's changing around us. So that's what it is. It's about being open, and then the W is having a willingness to collaborate by CO creating instead of controlling, by allowing that, that innovation that we talked about, that you intrinsically get from diversity and from people from different backgrounds, By allowing that to have space by allowing that to breathe. So being open and willing to collaborate, I often say it's amazing what you can accomplish when you're willing to let go some of some of the control and allow people to contribute what they can to a thing. And it's amazing, many times what ends up happening is you end up growing something far better, far bigger than you ever even imagined yourself. So the willingness to collaborate, and then the E, the last E in power, is about being emotionally resilient, because, listen, challenges are going to come. Change is going to come, but when it does come, it's about having the emotional resilience to withstand that, to process it, to see it for what it is, and bounce back. You know, it's almost cliche when people say this now, but it's true, and this is something that I live by. It's not about how many times you get knocked down, it's about how many times you get back up. And the truth is emotional resilience allows you to get back up, to bounce back, and then the R the final thing is to be results oriented. And all I mean by that is that we need to focus, to focus on purpose driven impact. Listen, we can be passionate about things all we want to. We can have all of the the

23:15

we can have, all of the empathy we can have, all the emotional intelligence we can have all of those things firing on all cylinders. But if we're not accomplishing something, if we're not actually moving the mission forward, then what is it for? Then why are we doing that? Leadership is also not just influence, but it's influenced with impact. What are we changing? What are we doing? What are we creating? What are we building? How are we accomplishing what it is, and how do we know that we're accomplishing what it is? So that was the fastest I have ever explained my real power frame like I wrote them all. So I will, I will read them over and reflect. So

24:02

you very recently did customized training for a disability advocacy organization that's obviously feeling the chaos. And you said earlier that you need to identify what your

24:19

client, customer of the organization you're working with. What? What are they trying to accomplish? So, right, in this case, what? What, what were they wanting from the training? What, what were they what were they intending that you would help them move forward with? Well, what they really were looking at is ways to help develop their leaders further, because they have some incredible leads. And this was really a great group to work with. They have some incredible emerging leaders, but honestly, many of them liked the confidence to feel like they could really make a difference in and you know, you mentioned something earlier, as as we were chatting about.

25:00

Out some of the leaders that you saw were being risk averse, and this is one of the issues that we saw. And sometimes in leadership, you have to take risk. Now that doesn't mean that you take, you know, just wild, flagrant things that, right? Hey, we could just sink the entire ship, but you have to be willing. You have to be willing to risk something. Yes, leadership requires sacrifice. Sometimes, bottom line, yeah, bottom line, you have to be willing to look silly. Sometimes, you have to be willing to fail. And if you do, at least create the environment where, number one, you are empowered enough and emotionally mature enough to own up to it that you have the accountability to say, Yep, my bad. I messed up here. And those kinds of things. When you bring those kinds of things to the table, you empower people in ways unimaginable. So one of the main problems that they had was just that was having leaders Emerging Leaders giving them the confidence and the tools that they need and able to really grow into the roles that they that they've been working in.

26:13

I just makes me think of something I learned when I was at the American Foundation for the Blind, and it was a financial turnaround situation on a pretty dire one. As far as the revenue streams had shifted and

26:30

they were they had not adapted quickly enough, and maybe it was wouldn't have been possible to adapt quickly enough to the very big changes they had in the revenue streams, which were related to be quests that were generated by Helen Keller's work. But

26:46

one of the, one of the people I brought in to help with strategic planning said, you know, you're going to have to do, you're going to have to do some things that are other some, some people might consider some of the things you're doing to be pretty wild. And he said, we just want to, we want to maintain our understanding of the difference between wild and reckless. So when you were speaking of the need to take risks, that's that's what came to mind. Sometimes you got to do some things that are going to disrupt and shake things up. Some people might think they're wild, but again, if you're a steward of an organization, you can't be reckless. That's a little bit of a fine line. Oh, absolutely there is. And I'll even, you know, look at it from this perspective, in this day and age, the way that things are now, anything you do that is progressive or different is going to be a risk anything you do right now. So the thing is to really get do your homework, do what you can. But the thing after that is to step fearlessly, to step with intention. Once you've done your homework, once you've once you've done the things that you could do, to make certain that you know, everything that you could think of is covered step forward. There is a bravery in that, there is a confidence, there is a courage that's required to do that, and knowing that you could fall, that you could fail, but failure is not the end. All. Learn from it. People don't need perfect leaders. And see this is one of the things that I think holds a lot of people back from really embracing who they are as leaders. They think to themselves, what if I fail? What if I mess up? What if I'm not the person that they think that I am and I'm exposed? Well, here's the deal. There is not one perfect leader. Nowhere on this earth, no human. No human is perfect. And the truth is, the world doesn't need your perfection. The world needs your presence. The world doesn't need leaders who have not made mistakes. The world needs leaders who have learned from those mistakes and are willing to still move forward. And this is the message. This is what I'm passionate about. This is what I'm trying to bring to the table. And I'll tell you, I also work with major corporations as well. I recently did a training with a major corporation. This was a series of training, and we were dealing with their C suite and their management level teams. And this was a manufacturing organization, and they are located in a place where the company is an international company, not from the States. However, there they have a hub here, and the place that they put their hub,

29:45

the culture was really different than what they were used to, and they were having some serious problems. And the leaders and the management started counting or started categorizing these folks, and.

30:00

Is, they don't want to work. They're coddled,

30:03

you know, if we just throw money at them, you know, that'll change it. And what ended up happening was, in the middle of one of their meetings, in the middle of one of their meetings, they announced a bonus. They announced a bonus that was a significant bonus with some real money, and they did not get the reaction they expected. Instead of cheering on applause, they got booed,

30:29

an audible Boo from the audience, and this rocked them. And so I was called, and they found me on LinkedIn, which was amazing to me. They found me on LinkedIn. We started yes

30:47

and and we started a conversation, and I put together something for them that would help them understand the culture, that helped to break down some of the barriers,

31:01

and also also help them to understand that not everything is fixed with money. People want to be seen, heard, right and valued. I have to ask, what was the emotion that was stirred in their their people, that led them to boo, being told they were getting a bonus? Well, what was, what was about that, that that was the thing. It was a very closed off environment, and people were not consulted as to what the real need was. Now, of course, they were happy for money, but that did not address their more immediate problems. These people were way overworked, way overworked. I mean, so much so that some of the preliminary work that we did, you know, of course, we asked about, what are the challenges, what are the issues? And you allowed them to do that anonymously, and they were talking about how, you know, they had family vacations planned that had been approved, and it was taken away, okay, because of all the stuff that say, Oh, we don't want your hush money. We want you to fix the problem, fix what the problem is, and we want you to see us as people. We want you to see us as humans. It was amazing to me. I one of the exercises that I did, and I did a number of trainings with them, but one of the exercises I did, I did this with the upper level management and some folks from the C suite and in the room, I asked them, I said, What made you choose this particular organization? What made you choose? And it's a very prestigious organization. So they said things like, you know, the challenge, the pride of being associated with the such, such an

32:40

August legacy. And they talked about what they wanted for their families and what they wanted to show their kids, and how they how they wanted to have a legacy in terms of their careers. And as they said this, it was beautiful. It was really, really beautiful. Their hearts were open. And then I asked them about the people that they complained about, I said, and what was their reason? Why would they choose to come to this place? Do you think that they saw the prestige? Do you think that they have dreams and aspirations? Have you asked them about it? And it was funny, because having them in that emotional place, and then putting that same thing to the people that they were complaining about, the people that booed them, it changed something, because they said they never thought about it. They never thought about what motivated those people to get out of bed every day. It wasn't just a paycheck. You're paying them well, it wasn't just a paycheck. These people have dreams, hopes and aspirations. It was almost like they needed to see them as human. They needed to see them as having the same desires, dreams and aspirations. Everybody wants their children to go to good schools and be safe and be well educated. These people do too. They want to see you as a part of the community. They want to be a part of the community, and they want you to be a part of it too. So it was really kind of level setting.

34:13

So I feel that you're very adept and intuitive and attuned to understand what the right question is to ask.

34:24

I hope so,

34:26

because that's what so much of leadership is. It's about asking the right questions. Yeah, absolutely so Wow. This time has flown by, but I do want to ask about your what,

34:39

what does stepping out fearlessly for lamondre Pugh look like here over the next couple of years. What are you? What are you? What are you as aspiring to create in your life and with your advocacy? Well, I tell you,

34:55

Okay, that's a great question, because this last the.

35:00

Last year has been super challenging for me, and I've had to make a major pivot in terms of of my business and the approach. But I'll tell you, and this is just being transparent and vulnerable. This is one of the scariest things that I've ever had to do in terms of in terms of putting something that I have held as a personal philosophy and a personal guidepost for my life, and now sharing it with the world. And this is,

35:35

this is what my real power framework was built on. It's a philosophy that I have, and it's called Live, big, live full and live authentic. And I'm putting it out there. I'm putting it out there in terms of helping people with leadership development, helping organizations build, build and develop leaders that have a real impact, that are values LED. And I'm also using it in terms of a personal development tool for people who are not necessarily looking at doing something in industry or anything like that. They just want to use it to empower their own personal lives. Um,

36:14

I've never put anything out there this personal before. So this is the this is the challenge. This is the challenge for me now, and I'm going to continue to do that. I'm going to continue to put that out there, you know, offer programs, offer content, offer things that I believe will help, will help people become more of who their purpose to be and who they're created to be, and I'm doing that with corporations, with nonprofit organizations, with individuals alike and

36:50

yeah, just want to be. It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. And I, I've, I've counted a blessing in my life that we were introduced to one another deepened our relationship over time. I know that's going to going to continue, and I, I will happily share you with the rest of the world. Lamondre, so how do people get in touch with you? Absolutely? Well, you can follow me on any social media platform. My name is lamondre, l, a, m, O, N, D, R, E. Last name is pew, P, O, U, G, H, so Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all the social media platforms, some of them like Instagram and x, it's la mandre underscore p, because I've been hacked before and get my can get my original stuff back, but you can also visit my website. It's lamondre pugh.com

37:45

that's L, A, M, O, N, D, R, E, P, O, U, G, h.com,

37:51

and you can check out my new podcast that's about to premiere on in April. Awesome. Yeah. It's called the live, big, live, full, live, authentic, Daily Affirmation podcast. You can check that out if you want to go to that website. It's simply, I will subscribe. I use an app that's very accessible for podcast management called eye catcher.

38:16

Find you and I will subscribe. Please, do please. We'll do it and and that's what it is, man. So live authentic daily.com that's live authentic daily.com

38:27

nice. And we can find you on LinkedIn, as we mentioned earlier, and me as well. So if you want to find me, it's Kirk Adams PhD on LinkedIn. My website is Dr Kirk adams.com so D, R k, i, r k, A, D, A, M, s.com,

38:47

I know lamondre shares the sentiment that we will happily talk to anyone listening to this podcast about inclusion, leadership, personal development, bravery, resilience, whatever you uh, whatever has resonated with you our discussion today, we would happily dig into it more deeply with you. So please do reach out to lamondre and or myself, and thanks for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams,

39:17

thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a [email protected]

39:28

Kirk adams.com,

39:30

together, we can amplify these voices and create positive change until next time. Keep listening, keep learning and keep making an impact.

In this episode of Supercharge Your Bottom Line Through Disability Inclusion, Dr. Kirk Adams speaks with Aaron Di Blasi, Sr. PMP for Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. (https://mvsltd.com) and Publisher for the Top Tech Tech Tidbits (https://toptechtidbits.com/), Access Information News (https://accessinformationnews.com), AI-Weekly (https://ai-weekly.ai) and Title II Today (https://title2.info) newsletters. Subtitle: Blind and Low-Vision Workshop By Aaron Di Blasi and Dr. Kirk Adams: Copywriting With AI. How To Generate Professional, High Quality, High Ranking, Accurate, Long Form Copy For Your Personal or Business Brand Using The Premium Versions of Foundational AI Models. 👉 Learn more today at: https://DrKirkAdams.com. 🧑 Aaron Di Blasi: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aarondiblasi/ 🚀 Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd.: https://mvsltd.com/ ♿ Top Tech Tidbits: https://toptechtidbits.com/ ♿ Access Information News: https://accessinformationnews.com/ 🤖 AI-Weekly: https://ai-weekly.ai 🏛️ Title II Today: https://title2.info TRANSCRIPT:

00:00

Music.

00:09

Welcome to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, where we bring you powerful conversations with leading voices in disability rights, employment and inclusion. Our guests share their expertise, experiences and strategies to inspire action and create a more inclusive world. If you're passionate about social justice or want to make a difference, you're in the right place. Let's dive in with your host, Dr Kirk Adams,

00:38

Hello everybody. This is Dr Kirk Adams speaking to you from my home office in sunny Seattle, Washington. And this is a very special edition of my monthly live stream webinar, which I call super charge your bottom line through disability inclusion. And today I have a wonderful guest and a colleague and partner in crime. Aaron Di Blasi, as we work together to accelerate inclusion of people with disabilities in our society, it was with mindful solutions. And Aaron, if you could give me a quick headline of who you are, I will start back to you shortly for more. Hello, everyone. My name is Aaron Di Blasi. I am the Senior Project Management Professional for a digital marketing firm out of Cleveland, Ohio, by the name of Mind Vault Solutions Limited. I am also the publisher for the Top Tech Tidbits, Access Information News, AI weekly, excuse me, and now, Title Two Today, newsletters, if you're familiar with any of those. I also work closely with Dr Adams to do his digital marketing as well.

01:47

Thanks, Aaron. So I got, I became acquainted with Aaron and actually through the apex program, which is www dot the apex program.com which is a virtual training program to launch blind people into cyber security. And I had connected with Aaron around that, and he

02:14

helped us promote the program through his publications. And as our relationship deepened, Aaron said things like, you should start a podcast, you should have a YouTube channel.

02:27

Yeah, you should write blogs. You need a, you need a, yeah. The difference is, you listen. No one else listens. Though, you listened every time. Seriously, kudos. Really. You need a website that's more focused on your overall brand, yeah, and so, and he listens, yeah. We piece by piece, we've been building this web presence, and part of this is generating content. And for those who don't know me, just super brief again, I'm Dr Kirk Adams. I'm a blind person. Have been since age five. My retina is detached. I went to a school for blind kids, first second and third grade in the state of Oregon, learn how to read and write Braille, which I do constantly travel confidently, independently with a long white cane. Learned how to type on a typewriter so I could start public school in fourth grade and type my assignments and spelling tests and things for sighted teachers. And I also was given just this wonderful set of experiences, which gave me a great internal locus of control, just a belief that I could do whatever I wanted to do, and that was largely through outdoor experience. It was in Oregon, we backpacked and camped in the Three Sisters wilderness area, we

03:43

went up on Mount Hood and build, build big snow forts out of snowball huge snowballs. We went to the Oregon coast in the tide pools. And so I just had that sense of how to love my body as a little blind kid. And was

03:58

given some great gifts there at that school, was the only blind student in all of my classes, from fourth grade through my through my PhD. So also had experiences as a academically high achieving young college student, blind having the challenges of trying to find employment. So I've had those experience, frustrating experiences as a blind job seeker. I've I've also had the privilege of employing many, many hundreds of blind people as

04:31

the president, CEO of the Seattle Lighthouse for the Blind, and American Foundation for the Blind. So employment is my jam and

04:42

and I've also become involved in a number of startup companies using Disability tech to accelerate inclusion. And through all of this, I have

04:55

been generating a lot of content. I've done a lot of writing in my day. And of course.

05:00

Course, as AI became more present in the world, I learned through doing so, I wanted to try to use AI whenever I could ask questions. I started to try to use it to assist in some writing. And then I discovered that Aaron

05:22

had done a lot more with that than I had,

05:26

had a lot more skill and insight than I had, and

05:32

we've generated some content together where I've given him some bare bones and some thoughts and some notes, and he's gonna show some examples of that. Yeah,

05:42

that's okay, yeah, yeah. He's come back and said, you know, what do you think of this? And he, he readily says, you know, I used, I used AI as a tool

05:53

to enhance

05:55

what you sent me. So we, we thought

06:01

that blind people in particular

06:05

could really be using AI to generate content more effectively and efficiently in order for us to all move our personal missions forward. So we thought we would share some knowledge today, and Aaron proposed we do a workshop, and I proposed we do it during my regularly scheduled monthly live stream webinar time. So here we are. Thank you for joining us, yeah, and thanks everyone who's here live, and thank you for all of you out there in the future we're viewing the recording. So Aaron, I'm going to hand you the talking stick, and I'm here to learn from you. So I will probably pop in with with questions from time to time. I hope so, and I have no you will, and I know you will allow time for questions. Oh, for sure, from our audience, very good.

07:01

All right, everyone. Well, just to top this off, I guess we'll start with the title, blind and low vision workshop, how to generate professional, high quality, high ranking, accurate, long form copy. Sorry for all that, for your personal or business brand using the premium versions of foundational AI models. The reason we included all of those words is because it's very specific to the type of copy that we're going to be talking about today.

07:26

It's very easy. Let's just start with this analogy to open up chat, G, P, T, and say, write me a blog post about dot, dot, dot, and it will okay. But unfortunately, the internet is filled with that kind of I

07:39

don't want to say garbage. A lot of people call it garbage, but it, unfortunately, in SEO terms, is garbage because it doesn't rank well, it doesn't do much for your brand, and it certainly doesn't do much for other people in the marketing field that read it and see that it was just simply generated with one prompt. So what people want to know is, they want to know, how do I get it to not only sound human? I mean, that is kind of the number one concern, I think, is that they want it to sound human, which we cover, that that's no problem. But more than anything, they want the context there that the model might not have. And today we're going to go over how to give the model all of the context that it needs and all of the timing that it needs to basically perform as though AI were five years from now. It's a pretty cool workaround. So we're going to start with an example. Recently, Dr Adams attended CSUN, and while he was in CSUN, he sent me daily summaries using Siri. He just simply transcribed them and sent them to me via text. I collected these texts into a document which was basically kind of him writing the article, but it was not in the article form. It was just his thoughts on what had happened, you know, people that he had met. This is, this is correct. These were notes on the fly that I just dictated as a text, right? Exactly. And then we just aggregated choppy, non sequential, thank you, exactly. That's what I want to point out. Yeah. This is not him writing, you know, an article, but by any sense, just kind of reporting what he had discovered. Okay, so now we take that and we're going to make that a piece of what we're going to go over today. Okay,

09:10

just to lay the groundwork for anyone who cannot see, we're going to have 10 steps that we're going to go over, and then we're going to have 10 preliminary things that we're going to describe. So there are 10 preliminaries and then 10 steps to the process. A lot of people start the process at write me a blog post about. Our number 10 step is going to be write me a blog post about so we're going to talk about what those other nine steps actually are. Okay, but before we do that, we're going to open up with just a couple of things, software tools that we're going to use in this course of using Google Chrome, which is just a web browser. I'll be using chat GPT, plus the $20 a month version, not the $200 a month version, nothing we need there currently. And I'll also be using Microsoft Word and notepad. Those are just for data. The purpose of Microsoft Word right now. And a lot of people use just pure text and say, why would you use.

10:00

Word because we have belief that in the future, in the very near future, llms will be able to not only parse the text in the Word document, but the hyperlinks attached to the text in the Word document, and that could make for some very serious contextual advantages in the future. So I would recommend you use Microsoft Word, where you can to store your quote, unquote databases, because they will have links attached to them that would be lost if you were to use text. Makes sense to everybody, okay. Number two, the computer platform that I'm using for the courses, windows, 11, desktop, but obviously you could use Mac. You could do this on mobile. You know, it works on on any platform that you can use an LLM.

10:39

Number three, what is a foundation model?

10:42

Just to clear this up, a foundation model is the context of artificial intelligence and machine learning at large scale that is trained on extensive data sets and serves as a base for various downstream tasks. Think chat, GPT, basically. Think Gemini, think Claude. These are major foundational models. They are closed. They're not open source. We'll get into that later. That's not really important right now, but these are the frontier models. These are the models that are currently behaving the best. They are giving us the highest quality. And of those three models, in our testing, we have found that chat, GPT, believe it or not, is the best writer. I know that a lot of people currently believe that Claude is the best writer, but I think what they're talking about is writing in the form of once upon a time, as in writing a story from scratch and keeping the narrative going. Claude does very well with that, for some reason, but chat GPT seems to do much better at original and creative writing, especially the kind that we're going to be doing today. So that's why we chose it. If anyone has any questions about that. So the competing versions would be Gemini for $20 a month and anthropic Claude for $20 a month. They'll all do the same thing, but these techniques that we're going to use today can also be used on the free version. You'll just have limits to how many

11:52

chats you can use. Okay, so moving on to number four. This is one of the most important contexts here. So listen up to this one, if you can what is a rolling context window.

12:04

The rolling context window allows the model to process and consider a fixed maximum number of tokens at any given moment in the session. This is the model's memory, essentially. And when you say, write me a blog post about Dot. Dot, dot, the model can only give you back results within this window, the single window, and that's why these posts are always small. They're always roughly 4096 characters or less, because that's the window. They're very easy to identify as AI generated, okay, the stuff we're going to do today. Aaron, this Yes. Kirk, so how do I know how big that window is? How much? Great question. Buy it off. Gotcha? Because I have noticed that sometimes, if I've asked,

12:48

take these three documents and combine it, you know, summarize it, it'll tail off toward the end and it won't all the words won't be there, won't be dramatically Correct. Okay, that's well, that there's a number of reasons that can happen that sounds more like a cutoff assumption. I've never experienced anything quite like that. When summarizing, let's go back to the first question. Yeah, no, that's okay, yeah,

13:15

gotcha. So here's some frame of reference for you, and let me give you the ones that won't matter first. Okay, 128,000

13:21

token rolling context window. That means nothing to most people. That's okay. We're going to convert that into Word document pages at 12 point font, just to give people an idea, because that's how most people parse things. Okay? That is roughly 205 pages of Word document at 12 point font. Now that's its entire memory throughout the entire conversation, not just one ask. So that is the maximum amount of context that it can hold in its mind while it's talking to you. The vast majority of people only use about 1% of this memory, but today we're going to use almost 100%

13:58

if that makes sense.

14:00

Any questions from you?

14:03

No, okay, okay. I can relate to Okay. Claude and Gemini have different rolling context windows, and they're larger, okay? And this can really benefit you if you are trying to put something together that has very large context. And we'll explain what that means once we get into the 10 steps. But just for informational purposes. Anthropic Claude is 200,000

14:25

token rolling context window, which is roughly 320 pages in a Word document for frame of reference. Now Google, Gemini, which is one of our favorite for research, is a 1.5 million token rolling context window, which is roughly 2400 pages of a Word document in a single conversation. That's why we tend to use it for very large research projects, because of its large text window, if that makes sense, but chat GPT gives better quality and it's much smaller context window. The larger the context window gets, the harder it becomes for the model to remember all of the context so the looser the answers become.

14:59

Okay?

15:00

So moving on to number six. What is a single chat context window? Now this is this is the limit. This is what everyone cannot get around. The single chat context window refers to the span of tokens that a language model can process in a single chat interaction, encompassing both the input tokens, which includes your prompt or query, and the output tokens the models response. It defines the amount of information the model can, quote, remember or consider at any given moment in a conversation. This amount is 4096 tokens. Comes out to about six pages in a Word document. So anytime you speak to chat GPT, you only have roughly six pages in and out what it's going to say to you and what you're going to say to it. So essentially, you have three pages because its response is generally 50% of the token output. So anything more than three pages in a single conversation, and it's going to truncate, it's going to give you issues, which may be one of the things that you described earlier when you uploaded a bunch of documents. And I think, yeah, we're going to get to how you can get around that, though, you know, with large documents, I'll show you a different way that you can do it. Okay, so number eight, we're getting close to the end here. Why the limit, the 4096 token limit that is returned in a single response, and this is across models, chat, GPT, Gemini and Claude, is likely to be capped at this value for practical reasons such as computational efficiency, user interface usability and avoiding overly large outputs that are hard to handle in one go. In short, this limit is not necessary, but it's currently here just to keep people in check, so to speak. So that is a limit that we are going to get around today, and we're going to teach people how to create entire documents that are cohesive, that are far more than 4096 tokens, which is all that it can return at one chat, if that makes sense. And we'll show you how to get around that. Okay, number nine, research tool examples for aggregating and assembling the data corpus for each subject. We're going to talk about this, but there's some tools that we're going to use to assemble data, because we're not going to trust the data that the LLM has. We're going to provide it with all the data ahead of time, and the tools that we use to gather that data is obviously Google search. We do Google, Google search. Perplexity has really come a long way. Notebook, LM, chat, GPT itself, we will ask to generate reports, especially with deep research now, and also we use Google 1.5 well it's 2.0 now. Grow with deep research. We use that as well, and we use these tools basically to generate current informational reports on our subjects or author before we go ahead and create the actual article.

17:26

All that makes sense.

17:30

Yep, following so far. Okay, great. Number 10, this we will cover later, but it's called the pair method. I just want to put this in everyone's brain. Pair, P, A, R, E, stands for Prime, augment, refresh, evaluate, but all you have to remember is prime. Prime is going to be the most important piece of this framework that we're going to use. You also don't have to worry about remembering any of this, because all of it's in a document that we will provide you after the course. So all you have to do is listen, okay, and this moves us on to the actual process for creating an article. And as we do this article, we're going to take the example of Dr Adams recent visit at CSUN,

18:08

and we're going to identify the subjects on the author. So we are ready to get started on the actual process. Do you have any questions before we do DR Adams,

18:17

I want to see how you spun my straw into gold. All

18:22

right. Well, here's how we did it. Okay, step number one of 10, identify the author of the final article that you want to create. This is kind of obvious. In this case, the author is Dr Kirk Adams. Why is that important? Because we have to build a corpus of that author, preferably with text that that author has written themselves. This is not a requirement. You can build an AI persona for someone who has not written their own text, but since Dr Adams has a beautiful dissertation in place and plenty of text that he has written by himself long before AI came along, we aggregate all of that data and we sample from it in order to pull a statistical analysis of the way that Dr Adams writes specifically, and chat GPT does this really well, and it it's a really great workaround, but you identify your author first, and then you put together a corpus about that author, as much information as you have. If it's only a single page Word document, that's all you know about them. Then you start with that. But for Dr Adams, for instance, we have his dissertation. We have probably 300 or 400 pages, you know, on him, I would say probably 200 of which he has written himself. So it's a very good statistical sampling for each article. So I strongly recommend that you don't need it, but it's something that you want to build over time. And as you generate articles for that author, you want to read those articles on the back end, back to that author's corpus for future generations. That makes sense. Okay, so that's step one, we identify the author, and we prepare a corpus of that author, and we set that aside. Step two, we aggregate, assemble and verify the data corpus for the author. We just said that. Step three, identify the number of subjects that your final article will require. Now in this case.

20:00

Case, this is something that you kind of have to do as a human being. You have to go in and see what you know, who did Dr Adams talk about, what are the subjects? So let's pull the subjects out of CSUN. There's CSUN itself. We need to tell the LLM all about CSUN. So we have a database for all about CSUN here at The Vault, and we dropped that in. He mentioned three players at CSUN, Awarewolf Gear, Case for Vision and Top Tech Tidbits. So we need to let the LLM know about all three of those subjects as well. So we prepare a data corpus for Awarewolf Gear. We prepare a data corpus for Case for Vision, and we prepare a data corpus for Top Tech Tidbits, and we drop those in along with the author and CSUN data corpuses. We're almost done. He also mentioned that there was uncertainty from disability organizations. Now this is more an ideal than an actual thing, but it is still something that we can research and give the LLM knowledge about current knowledge about. So for this, we went to Gemini growth deep research and asked it as of today to give us the most current research on the current state of uncertainty from disability organizations around the current political climate, di etc, and it generated a beautiful report on the current state of what's going on. We use that as a corpus and drop that in along with CSUN, a werewolf gear case for vision top tickets, and CSUN and the author corpus for Dr Adams. So we have our jaws. Tells me someone would like the definition of the data corpse. Oh, data corpus. Let's just call it a Word document, a database. It used to be SQL. It used to be a data corpus. Today it's just a Word document with data in it. I'm sorry for the extreme word, but it is still a data corpus. Each one is but basically, you're just building a Word document or text file about each subject, and you're saving those files because you're going to use those files as a base for what we're going to do next.

21:45

Sound good? Yep. Okay, on we go, all right, aggregate, assemble and verify the data corpus for each subject. So let's assume that we just did that, and we have all of those files ready on our computer. I know that's a tall order, especially for blind people. I don't want to seem like we're glossing over that, but we do only have an hour, and that's the reason that we're making this the way that we are. But I understand that's a lot of work, and it can take a lot of time, but as a digital marketing agency, when you do this for someone you know, like Dr Adams or a different client, it it definitely pays for itself in the long run, because by the end of it, you'll be able to generate articles much more quickly, much more high quality than even a team of humans could in the same amount of time. So that's the idea. Okay, so step number six, we're going to use the provided role prime prompt. You remember we talked about that earlier. I said you only need to remember prime so that's all we're going to do right now.

22:37

So basically, we're going to take these documents that we have, 1234567,

22:41

documents. We're going to go into chat GPT, and we're going to use a feature called projects. What projects allows us to do in chat GPT is list a number of documents and then go ask questions about those documents. You can get around this by providing the documents directly in the chat as you speak, but you will be limited by the context window that we talked about earlier, you'll run into the issue that Dr Adams described, where it will be cut off if you use projects, it uses a different technology called rag retrieval, augmented generation. We won't get into what that is, but it does not have a limit. Is the point. So you want to take these files, add them to a project, and then in this project chat window, with all of these files in tow. We are going to prime each subject and and the author. We're going to start with the author, and we're going to prime the author, and we're going to say, I'm going to read you the prompt that we're going to provide you. But I call it, tell me everything there is to know about dot, dot, dot. That's what I call it. So in the chat, I type in, tell me everything there is to know about Dr Kirk Adams. That is not the actual prompt. It's very long. I'm going to read it here in a second, but that's the idea. And we press enter, and it goes into this project files, and it sees those 400 pages that we have on Dr Adams, and it pulls this outline, so to speak. Basically what it's doing is it's pulling from the project files all of the information into its memory so that it does not have to hallucinate or guess about who Dr Adams is. In addition, it is sampling his writing style, his statistical, mathematical writing style, so that it can duplicate it later on, when you ask it to Okay, once we've done that for the author in the same chat window, we then proceed to do the same thing for each subject. Tell me everything there is to know about CSUN. And it goes into the project files, and it details everything that it knows about CSUN. And then we when it's done with that, we say, tell me everything there is to know about a werewolf gear. And it goes and it describes everything. Now, mind you, this is all in the same chat. So about Dr Adams, same chat, CSUN. Same chat, a werewolf gear? Same chat, case revision. Same chat, top check tidbits. Same chat, uncertainty from disability organizations, same chat. Now, when we're done with that, we've got all of this context loaded into the models memory. Okay, we're going to move on to I don't think I'm going to read the prompt. It's very long, but you will get it as part of this program, and you can swap out the author or subject in the prompt that you want it to.

25:00

The whole from the corpus, from the database. Okay, so we move on to number seven at this point, once role prime context has been delivered into the chat for the author and each subject and refined by pair as needed. We'll get to that later, because you can refine each subject and author if there's a specific thing that they want to say. For instance, Dr Adams provided a bunch of detail on CSUN, but I didn't decide to use it at this point. We'll use it later. I'll show you where that comes in. Here we are Step seven. Ask chatgpt to provide you with five possible article title examples from author about the final topic that you wish for author to write about. Select one of these five titles for the final article or some combination thereof. This is a wonderful time with all of the context present in the chat. To ask chat GPT for five possible article titles that author would write about said subject, considering all of the context that it knows about author and it knows doctor, yeah, does the choice of the title flavor the article, does it influence? Yes, it does everything. Flavors everything, because it is statistical analysis between words, so even changing the single case of a letter will affect the output. So yes, it does definitely. And the titles that it suggests are definitely in consideration of who you are, what you've written. It's interesting. It really takes into account everything that you've written before as well, which is why we do it at this point in the chat, because it now knows everything about you that makes sense.

26:36

Okay, all right, so at this point

26:41

we it gives us back five titles. We choose one of those titles, okay? Or some combination. Usually, I like a combination of two of the titles. It never it usually does a good job on like the first and the third one. So I'll put those together. And in step number eight, this is where the magic happens. This is where we sidestep that 4096

26:58

context window limit. This is where you get to do what no one else can do, and this is how, and as if you're an academic, you will recognize this shortcut Step eight, use the provided prompt to generate an outline. Listen to that outline for the final article title, copy and paste the final outline into a Word document. Now the chat GPT, at this point will generate an entire outline, and that outline will be within the 4096 character limit. But the great part about it is we're going to refeed that outline in one section at a time and have it write the article for just that section. Now what this allows us to do is make each section of the outline have a 4096 token limit rather than the entire article.

27:44

And this makes a huge, huge difference in your ability to generate long form content. You could literally generate probably a 200 Well, roughly 190 page article, and with context, using this method, so that is kind of the same. So mechanically, you've generated out while you put it in a Word document. Then do you just copy and paste each I'm going to get to that we're going to step up in that. Okay, use the generated outline in tandem with the following prompt. Now we've provided a specific prompt that we use to do this. You can use ours to start, but I encourage you to experiment. But this prompt will do a really good job. Use the generated outline in tandem with the provided prompt to generate the final article one outline section at a time. Do not provide more than one outline section at a time. Do not provide any additional chat or context. And in between providing each outline section for generation, copy each final article section as it is generated and paste it into a separate word document.

28:44

This gives you the final article from chat. GPT, okay. It is at this point that a human being needs to edit that article, review that article. Hallucinations still happen. This is still an LLM, you want to make sure it didn't, you know, say that Dr Kirk Adams used to be president in the United States, or, you know, it can do things like that. So you want to check through we've never had any hallucinations ourselves, but we have to recommend that you look through it and make sure that there are none. This is generally where we provide it to the client. Dr Adams will sign off on it or make any small edits that he wants or likes, which are generally few. And then that article goes into what we call production, gets turned into HTML. SEO is done on it. Keywords are pulled, etc, and we begin publication one. One thing that pops up sometimes is when referring to blind people as a group, it might, might say them, and I will change it to us. We hate that I am also a blind person and part of the community. So that you know that that's one that I've seen more than once, but they are very minor. I haven't seen any I haven't seen anything factual, right, right? Nor have I. But again, I think the way that you get those hallucinations is lack of context, you know? So here we're providing a TON TON TON of context. So the hallucinations drop to this.

30:00

0.000

30:01

point. You know, it's really, it's negligible. So that's kind of the beauty of the of the process, and that's what we use here. That's what we use for you. That's what we use for probably 20 other clients across the world. They're very happy with it. Just know that this may not last long. You know, the llms are changing, you know, in the way that this works may change in the future as well, and just to speak specifically to blind persons, I know how difficult this must be, and if you have any thoughts on how to copy and paste large amounts of text back and forth between documents, I know that there's anchors and all types of other workarounds that we can use. I would love to put something together, an article in the future that helps blind marketing professionals specifically to implement this workflow. So if you have any ideas, please reach out to me or Dr Adams and let us know

30:50

a question or two. Certainly, I also talked about a couple other things in the text I sent you. I talked about AI and how many of the presentations touched upon AI? There was a lot of excitement about AI and accessibility that there's some talk with universal design and incorporating AI into Universal Design that

31:21

add on. Assistive technology may not be needed in the future. There was some excitement around that.

31:29

There was also concern about the bias that is represented by AI, because AI is made up of data points, and people with disabilities use technology less than people without disabilities, so our data of our lived experiences is underrepresented. So you get you get some you get some things.

31:54

You know, Jenny lay flurry,

31:56

Chief Accessibility Officer at Microsoft, David, gave a presentation.

32:01

They are. They are now they have a partnership with Be My Eyes. They're they're now receiving data through the beam. Be my AI usage that they're anonymizing and and aggregating.

32:15

But you know, she, she put up an example of people saying

32:20

to a i I'm blind, and I need to do this, this and this. And, you know, the the AI saying, I'm, I'm sorry to hear you're blind. Think, think that that was, that was an example. So there is concern about bias, and how is AI out? As AI evolves, can be,

32:42

as people with disabilities, be proactive

32:47

in

32:49

addressing that, and

32:53

so any any comments you might have on that, just AI in general, what you're seeing, You're saying you're working with 20 clients using the type of generative process you just talked about.

33:07

I just love your personal take, take on the State of the Union as far as AI and disability and accessibility. Certainly, certainly, I think the big conversation right now that everyone is having is the effect that AI will have on accessibility. There's the will AI eat accessibility conversation, and I think there's a lot of nuance to that conversation.

33:33

I think the one missing element in that conversation is timing, because we say, will AI eat accessibility. I mean, 30 years from now, sure, I think, I don't think anyone would argue that, you know, but a year from now, two years from now, who knows? You know, those are the bets that are current. When's it going to happen? How is it going to happen? What's it going to look like, and specifically, how will it affect blind people? I think a lot of these questions are going to be answered very soon. Amazon plus is coming out, which is going to be huge. It's going to be huge for me, you know, I know it's huge for blind people. It will be the first time an LLM has really been merged with voice in the way that I believe blind people need it to be, you know, kind of like chat GPT, advanced voice mode, you know, which, if you are blind and you have not tried advanced voice mode, I encourage you to rush out today, if you can, and try it, because I think it's life changing. And I think those kinds of things will be life changing. I also think where representation is concerned specifically, and lived experience of people with a disability specifically, we have room for improvement in that once we can collect data from

34:42

people remotely using technology. I mean, I don't know how, but imagine a phone, imagine an apple headset. Imagine if you could, if they could watch Dr Adams work for an hour and specifically tailor solutions to Dr Adams needs. I think that is happening in the future. How far away I can't.

35:00

It 345, years, possibly, maybe sooner. You know, I just think it's a very interesting time. I think it is the greatest time to be alive, and I think it is the most profound time for people with disabilities to have hope in always. You know, from neuro link, which recently released a brain interface that allows a man to use an apple vision Pro to control his environment, you know, I would be incredibly excited about that. If I were one with paralysis, you know, to the breakthroughs of blind and retinal medical technologies that are happening currently, and the promise of that possible technology, then blind people may one day be able to see, you know, and that's not BS, I think is pretty amazing. Personally.

35:45

Another

35:47

aspect of CSUN I commented on as an avid Braille reader was the

35:53

appearance of numerous multi line braille displays. So I have a

36:01

80 character braille display attached to my laptop, the same one I've used since 2016

36:07

I have a 32 character

36:11

Braille tablet note taker,

36:15

basically the same technology I saw when I had my first bursa Braille from tele sensory incorporated in the early 90s, where the data was stored on a cassette tape. The braille display is essentially unchanged. So it's eight there's eight dot Braille cells, and there are mechanical pins that are driven up and down mechanically. And they they fail, they get dirty, they stop working.

36:42

So these multi line braille displays,

36:45

there were four companies there.

36:50

The premise is, you could be more efficient and effective if you could read a 32 character Braille display. I'm looking at one on my lap right now. 12345677,

37:01

words on the line. So the, you know, the Prem, and then I have to toggle to the next line. So the premise would be, could be more efficient and effective, especially with

37:12

computer Braille and mathematical Braille, long equations that that would occupy more lines. And then the other exciting piece is graphics, you know, as a blind kid trying to learn what, what's a parabola? Yeah, yeah.

37:32

And then, you know, there was one cool one where they,

37:36

there was a Braille tablet with 100 characters, and they put up a, you know, illustration of a bicycle, which was cool. I mean, I could tell two wheels, handlebars, it was fun, but they're expensive, right? They're incredibly expensive,

37:54

6000 to Yes, 20 plus $1,000

37:59

so my contention was we need another tactile

38:05

reading system that doesn't reply on these rely on these mechanical pins. And some people listening may remember the Opticon, which I was shown as a second or third grader in the late 60s. And you put your fingers on a little pad, and there were little pins that vibrated. They didn't raise up and down. They they vibrated. And they actually replicated, replicated print letters. So you would scan a print document, and then you would feel the print and some people, still, I know some people love the OPT, yeah, we have, we have people on the list that recently asked about someone that could fix an Opticon. And we were, yeah, yeah. We were trading back and forth black mark. There's a nice black

38:45

but

38:47

I had invited a gentleman, Rafiki Kai, who's a visiting scholar in AI at University of San Francisco Computer Science Department,

38:56

and I was showing him many of these braille displays and talking about the expense. And I got a text from him yesterday saying he's talked to people in the mechanical engineering department at University of San Francisco who are using AI to solve mechanical engineering problems, and he wants to get on a call to see if they can take on developing a new, refreshable breath technology as a project. So a lot of things come out of CSUN. And

39:24

I digress a little bit, just to say you talked about the seven subjects, but there were other things in the article as well, the discussion of AI,

39:34

the discussion of the Braille displays. And for those who haven't read the article, you can think you can find it and talk to top tech tidbits, but

39:46

I think Aaron, if you have any other thoughts that you think are important to share, also, how can people get in touch with you? And I'll let people know how they can get in touch with me.

40:00

And then we'll open up to see if anyone has any questions. Certainly, I think the easiest way that everyone's used to getting in touch with me is just publisher at top tech tidbits.com I have many, many email addresses. They all work. You can reach me at all of them, but that's usually the one that most people use.

40:16

I just basically wanted to answer as many, I'm sorry, yeah, as many questions as I could today, these this workshop was the culmination of questions that I have been asked for about the last two months, you know, from people. So I hope they get a lot of value out of this. We will have this recording posted tomorrow, along with the Word document, which contains all of the prompts that I did not read to you today and everything else that you need to complete the process yourself, and if you have any questions, I might be able to convince Dr Adams to get back on here with me and answer some questions. Yeah, absolutely happy to do part two.

40:52

And we'll probably need to in about three just just to answer questions. Yeah, you probably will change Yeah.

40:59

And to get in touch with me, it's Kirk Adams at Dr Kirk, adams.com Kirk Adams at Dr Kirk, adams.com or LinkedIn.

41:08

And any questions from those of us who are with us live today, and if you're viewing this as an archive recording, please email Aaron and or I, and we'll be happy to engage in dialog and hearing Hearing none I am going to thank you, Aaron, for a very succinct, well organized description of the process you use, and hoping that it will prove of great value to Those who I think view the webinar and looking forward to our next conversation. Indeed. Dr Adams, thanks for all you do. Absolutely talk to you, my friend. All right, take good care. Bye, everybody. Bye, bye.

41:56

Thank you for listening to podcasts by Dr Kirk Adams, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, share or leave a [email protected]

42:07

Kirk adams.com

42:09

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