Queers and Co.

This week, I’m joined by queer witch, illustrator and author, Cedar McCloud (they/them). Cedar started reading tarot in 2003, going on to found Numinous Spirit Press and create beautiful, radical decks with a social justice lens, such as The Numinous Tarot and The Threadbound Oracle. They believe storytelling is a beautiful tool for healing from trauma and enjoy archaic crafts, nature walks and fashion.

Join us as we chat about exploring ourselves through art, the importance of acknowledging our pain for healing, thinking about gender as a colour wheel, their work as a tool for activists to affect change, how tarot tells us what we already know deeply, getting engaged and so much more!

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Follow Cedar on Instagram

Support Cedar’s Kickstarter

Visit Cedar’s website and shop

Become a supporter of Cedar’s work on their Patreon

Full Transcription to follow

This week, I’m joined by Lindsay McGlone aka The Fierce Fat Feminist; an activist, public speaker, producer, stage manager, Instagram coach and teacher. Lindsay is a force to be reckoned with, running numerous successful campaigns highlighting fatphobia, most recently targeting Airbnb. She was also named Young Changemaker of the Year in the IWC Igniting Inspiration Awards 2020.

Joining me whilst recovering from surgery, hear us talk about how wearing slogan t-shirts changed Lindsay’s life, fatphobia in healthcare and the media, the incredible support she receives from her family, experiencing a skin condition called HS, becoming the subject of a fake news story in The Sun, balancing activism with influencing and so much more!

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Follow Lindsay on Instagram

Grab a ticket to Lindsay’s Big Fat Burlesque Online Show on Saturday 13th March 2021 at 8.30pm UK time

Find about more about Lindsay on her website

Full Transcription to follow

This week, I’m joined by artist, photographer and documenter Holly Revell, who has a keen eye for preserving and collaborating with other queer artists, making images and portraits which explore performance and transforming identities. Holly’s work is archived at Bishopsgate Institute.

Join us as we chat about being a groupie in the 90’s, becoming a professional photographer working in the queer underground, her beautiful new zine from her People Like Us project, not fitting into the art world, hanging out with queer icons and a whole lot more!

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Find out more about Holly’s work on her website

Holly's new zine People Like Us (a work in progress), which features a series of 12 images and participants quotes from the wider project, is available to buy here

Follow Holly on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter

Travis Alabanza’s new play, Overflow

Zanele Muholi’s exhibition at the Tate Modern, which runs until 31st May 2021

Harry Clayton-Wright’s new zine, You Otter Know

Transcription to follow

This week, I’m joined by Adele Jarrett-Kerr; a mother, writer, home educator and breastfeeding counsellor, originally from Trinidad and Tobago, now living in Cornwall. Adele also works with her family’s small, regenerative farm near Falmouth and hosts a podcast about human connection called Revillaging.

Join us as we talk about the importance of developing critical thinking, what our children teach us, experiencing colonial dismissal, deprogramming from the dominant culture, different ways of accessing knowledge and the problematic nature of academia, partnering with nature in farming and so much more!

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Find out more about Adele’s work on her website

Listen to the Revillaging podcast

Check out Soul Farm

Follow Adele on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter

Listen to Adele’s podcast for the Freedom to Learn Forum, Address the Harm: Self-Directed Learning for Decolonisation

Full Transcription

Gem: Welcome to Queers & Co., the podcast on self-empowerment, body liberation and activism for queer folx. I'm your host, Gem Kennedy. I'm a transformational coach, as well as creator of the Queers & Co. community.

Gem: Hey folx, welcome to another episode of Queers & Co. I don't know about you, but lockdown fatigue has really set in in the last week or so. It gave me a lot of hope, actually imagining people listening to this in like six months or a year, and hopefully lockdown being a thing of the past, or at least things being easier. So yeah, if you're listening in the future, well done you. For everyone who's listening now, in February 2021, I hope you're all keeping safe and managing to look after yourself. I wonder if there's anything that you could do today that would help your day feel a little bit easier, maybe help you feel a little bit more supported. I'm really conscious of that at the moment, because as I said, locked down in our household is really becoming tiresome. The children just want to see their friends, and we just want to be outside seeing all the people we love. So it's feeling really frustrating.

Gem: Luckily, I have a really great guest for you today. And it's someone that I spoke to back in December and oh it was so good. When I listened back just now when I was editing and transcribing the episode, I just had so many thoughts, there are so many things that we touch on. And I'm really hoping that she's going to come back and talk to us about some other things that will become clear as we go through the episode. I think you're gonna really enjoy it. And I'm sure that you'll get lots from what my guest has to share.

Gem: One of the things I'm conscious of with the podcast is that I know lots of people who listen don't have children. And I feel like there might be a tendency to switch off when there are sort of children's rights or unschooling specific podcasts or guests who are working in those fields. But I really would encourage anyone to listen because not only do we talk about the ways we are with our children, there's so much learning that comes from how we think about education ourselves and how we allow ourselves to discover knowledge. And I think what my guest had to share around that was just really fascinating, and I learned a lot.

Gem: So without further ado, let me introduce you to her. She is a mother writer, home educator and breastfeeding counsellor, originally from Trinidad and Tobago, and now living in Cornwall. She also works with her family's small regenerative farm near Falmouth and hosts a podcast about human connection called Revillaging, which I'd highly recommend you have a listen to. Introducing my excellent guest, Adele Jarrett-Kerr. Hi, Adele, thanks so much for joining me

Adele: Thanks for having me, Gem. I've been really looking forward to this conversation.

Gem: Me too. And we kind of already jumped in before we started recording. So we decided that we better start recording so we can capture what we're talking about. And really, we were talking about sound quality, but actually kind of what the subtext was like unschooling and queering things, I guess. And so it'd be really interesting if you're happy to just introduce yourself and how you identify in sort of various ways.

Adele: Yeah, sure. That's good. Yeah. So my name is Adele Jarrett-Kerr. I am originally from Trinidad and Tobago, and I live in the UK. I've lived here for 15 years. So I'd say that that is a huge part of my identity. I'm an unschooling parent of three kids who are nine, six and four. And we have always done life without school, but have kind of transitioned more and more towards unschooling, as I've learned more about children's rights, but also decolonizing myself, that's been a huge part of our process. And we run a farm, and I'm one member of a team of four who run a farm here in Cornwall. It's a no-dig farm, which uses regenerative practices, although I'm always a bit cautious of using that word, because it is a word that comes from indigenous and African cultures. And we are trying to embody that in all ways, not just in the sense of the way that we do agricultural practices, but trying to get into the philosophy of that and living regeneratively. Yeah, because it's become a bit of a whitewashed buzz word. So it's like a lot of thing and I sure we'll get onto that at some point. I'm trying to think of what else would really say? Yeah, I dunno I think that probably covers a few things. I have been working as a breastfeeding counsellor, well volunteering as a breastfeeding counsellor for quite a significant portion of my life now, last almost 10 years, but I'm kind of taking a break from that but I feel like that has actually informed a lot of the things that I do as well. So it is worth sort of mentioning. And I'm not sure if there's anything else, I probably can't be neatly packaged, like most of the things about us and will probably emerge as we have the conversation rather than me saying I'm Adele and I'm this, this, this and this.

Gem: Yeah, I think it's really useful place to start. And there's so much already that I'm like, Oh, I wanna know about this, I wanna know about this. And our paths have crossed over the last year or so in different spaces, but not enough. So I'm really keen to find out more. So you came to the UK 15 years ago, and your journey to the children not ever going to school and also decolonizing your life in general as well as education... Yeah. How did that kind of journey unfold? And was there like one thing that catalysed it? Or was it a very gradual process?

Adele: Which bit of the journey? Cos there are quite a few things that you've just mentioned there.

Gem: There are, aren't there? I'm wondering... I guess my question is around you had children and did you always know that they weren't going to school? Were you already kind of in touch with children's right and understanding decolonisation at that point? Or was it later on? I guess, because for me, the real catalyst was having children...

Adele: Well that's the case for so many of us, isn't it? Yeah. having children is just such a profoundly transformative experience. I don't want to see that in the sense of... because some people like to say that you can't fully experience life unless you become a parent, which is just not true because there are lots of different pathways into these things. But because it is, I guess, because it's hard in a lot of ways, it does kind of speed up the process for those who experience it anyway. Although there are other big things that can bring us into that. Yeah, for me, it definitely was... I had always known that I was going to home educate actually because I hated school myself. And I had the fortune which a lot of people don't have of knowing people who were home educated when I was growing up and envying them. And also because, well... as I didn't grow up here, I guess the rules probably would have been different here, but it was quite laid back in terms of whether I went to school or not.

Adele: So actually, for much of secondary school, my mother, she just allowed me to just not go if I didn't want to. So I would go for like the bare minimum, and then just not go for quite a lot of it so I guess that would probably be, well, it would probably be considered school refusal here. Whereas it wasn't that kind of an issue there at the time anyway, particularly because I was still able to... I happen to have the privilege of being able to make the grades anyway, because I test really well and then forget everything I've learned. So I was able to game the system in that way, which shows that the system doesn't work. And yeah, so all of that stuff kind of came together for me. And then I had the really strong feeling when I was pregnant, that I didn't want this child to go to school, at least not at first, it just felt like for me, it was the family togetherness. That was important. And I think that's the case for a lot of people is that you start off with kind of a few ideas. And it's only as you do it that you start to gain more reasons for why you're doing something. And that's definitely been the case, I think even now at this point, I would say that my reasons are either different or more in number than they were even a year ago. So I think that just keeps on happening as we get to know our children, as we get to know ourselves and that's what becoming a parent was for me, it was kind of taking a good look at myself, and getting to know a lot of things about me that I wouldn't have gotten to know. And what I hadn't got to know yet, but in a very kind of quick and intense sort of journey way as they like to call it.

Adele: And yeah, and it was really strange as well becoming a parent in a culture that wasn't mine. It was a second culture shock in a lot of ways because I experienced huge culture shock when I moved here. Actually, it wasn't just culture shock. I call it colonial... Well, it was a sense of just feeling that I wasn't fully accepted. I didn't fully belong. I was constantly reminded that I was foreign and that my foreignness was somehow worthy of being dismissed. So it was a colonial dismissal that I was experiencing. So it wasn't just culture shock. And I didn't experience that again when I had my child, but what I had was just feeling like a really primal all of the things that I would have probably... I hadn't even had a chance to think about. All of the things that I would have expected to have... I don't know some sort of like memory of what you sort of expect when you become a parent. But none of that was there. And it's the whole not having your family with you. And I know that it's different here, families often aren't very involved with each other, but I come from a culture where they are. So it was a lot of those things kind of allowed me to think with a bit of a blank slate. So it was a gift really, because it was a chance to really look at what was important to me. And I think that that kind of informs a lot of my perspective, when I'm talking about things is that I've been given the opportunity to come at things from kind of a slightly different angle, because of having moved because of being kind of on the margins in some respects. And people in the margins are always the ones who are able to disrupt because we see things from a different angle.

Gem: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so powerful to think about that in terms of unschooling and the way that we raise our children, and I know that you, if anyone hasn't listened to it, they should definitely go and check out the talk that you did for the Freedom to Learn forum on decolonising education, and I'm conscious of not repeating all of it. I think what was so what was so fascinating about that, is that you talk about when families are unschooling, if they're not actively decolonising their practice or their family culture, then it's kind of not really unschooling, and it's not really having that radical impact that as unschoolers, they're often intending to have.

Adele: Yeah, because unschoolers can feel that we're upsetting the colonial power structure between adults and children, which is true. And in indigenous cultures, children are much more at the centre, and much more on an equal playing field. But while we're doing that, if we're not kind of coming alongside our children to gain these tools together, well, to disrupt the culture and to... Think of how to put this. To look at things together through a informed lens, then we're not actually giving our children, we're actually doing them a bit of a disservice, because we're just saying, "Go out there and be educated by the dominant culture". And we know that the the dominant culture is not decolonised, the dominant culture is there to just keep perpetuating the same kinds of harms, over and over again. And so you're just putting your child into the world, but not actually, you're definitely doing some good by trying not to oppress them better, but you're not giving them the tools to think about where they might be oppressing others, or where they might be accepting messaging about themselves from others. You know, because not all the messaging comes from us, obviously.

Gem: Yeah, it's so true. And I'm thinking about... because obviously, we don't want to be pushing our children to learn a particular thing, but at the same time if they're not aware that those resources are available, if they're not aware, for example, that the dominant culture is a thing, then to them as you said, I think this really great quote, where you said, "If something appears to be neutral, it aligns with the dominant culture". And when we're kind of not preparing our children with those tools and resources to sort of critique things and to look at things from different angles, then, yeah, it is just a perpetuation of the mainstream dominant white supremacist culture.

Adele: Yeah and it's the critiquing things, that's such an important skill, the critical thinking, and it's something that we need to develop in ourselves first, so it's not really so much about like, we've got to teach our child how to do this thing is that's not what we're aiming for, but we need to see it for ourselves. And for a lot of us, we don't see it, because we have fallen asleep with this culture, we have to wake up to what's happening. And so we need to educate ourselves, we need to be thinking deeply, we need to feel deeply and allow things to come not just into our minds but into our feelings and our bodies. And then from there be able to... we will notice things and we'll be able to model this kind of critical thinking and not just a case of like just being negative and pulling apart everything but modelling love you know and generous thinking, and all of all of that stuff. And it's really interesting to me... so I bought these, well actually I was given these Nancy Drew books by a friend years and years ago, and I just thought I'll just hang on to them because my kids might like it. I sort of vaguely remember reading some Nancy Drew as a child, and my nine year old is now of the age where she's reading them, and she said she's going to read them because we're in a pandemic, and she can't get to the library and her reading material is a little bit thin on the ground, but she said that after I read them, I think you should get rid of them. Why? And she said, because it is so sexist and racist. Oh, okay. So then we were talking about what were the things that came up and she was talking about First Nations people and the gender roles and all of that stuff that's going on. And I just thought, yeah, that's really interesting because I don't remember, because I read them as a child and because that kind of modelling wasn't happening. That's not something that I'm levying at my parents at all. It's just the way that the culture was and we are becoming more awake to things. I'm sure that if I read it now, I probably would be quite shocked. But I'm thankful for the fact that we have enough of these conversations, and she kind of sees my decision making process around things enough. And she's making decisions for herself. So that she knows that she feels able to read this because sometimes she decides she's not gonna read something. But she knows that she feels able to read this, and notice those things and critique them, but she also is able to say, but that's not a reason that we should keep it hanging around, because there's plenty else out there, and you'll have time to buy and replace it with other things, when the time comes for my sisters to read them.

Adele: It's so great. Like, it gives me goosebumps thinking that there are children who are essentially, um, I guess, like I was more aware or potentially, I guess, yeah, I was more critical of the world as a child and teenager than I was in my sort of early 20s. And it's so great to hear that there are people growing up with that, and that that's encouraged in a family and, you know, it's the culture that has been set and there's discussion ongoing, rather than it being stifled, or, you know, something we shouldn't talk about. I'm thinking about my nine year old who, sometimes we talk for example quite a bit about pronouns and gender and stuff, and sometimes I'll say, "Oh, you know, that that man over there", and she'll correct me and say, well, you don't know if they identify as a man. And I'm like yeah actually, that's so true. I don't. I'm non-binary myself, but we do make those assumptions or kind of still have those dominant things that pop up from time to time and it's so great when your children are like, hold on a second, or, yeah, they're not living in that paradigm that you're having to remove yourself from.

Adele: Yeah I mean, doesn't that just show just how internalised these things are, though, that, you know, even if it's something that we are actively having to confront, because of our own identities, we're still prone to accepting what the dominant culture says, without kind of... it's...

This week, I’m joined by Katy Lees (they/them), a queer writer and psychotherapist from the North East of England. They can be found writing therapy tips, poetry, anti-oppression rants, short stories, and more. They are currently writing a good mental health guide for trans and non-binary people, to be published soon by Jessica Kingsley Publishers.

Join us as we talk about the oppression different sized fat folx experience, trans and non-binary mental health and self-care, Katy’s experience navigating and recovering from burnout, stepping away from the constant pressure to ‘level up’ in life, the challenges of dressing as a fat, trans, non-binary person and lots more.

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Find out more about Katy’s work on their website.

Support Katy’s work on their Patreon

Follow Katy on Instagram

Full Transcription

Gem: Welcome to Queers & Co., the podcast on self-empowerment, body liberation and activism for queer folx and allies. I'm your host, Gem Kennedy. My pronouns are they/them and I'm a transformational practitioner and coach living in the UK.

Gem:  Hey folx! Welcome to Episode 4. I hope you were able to get some relaxing time during integration week. I know that it was really helpful for me to practice some of what I talk to my clients about around working sustainably and actually give myself some space to not be furiously editing and producing all the time. So with that in mind, I'm very excited and energised to be back for Episode 4. And this one is a short and sweet episode. They're an incredible guest and they also happen to be an incredible client of mine. And I'm just really happy that they agreed to record an episode with me. We had quite a few technical difficulties unfortunately during the recording, which meant that we tried two different platforms and then by the time we'd had that all sorted, then time was up. So we have just over half an hour together. And I hope that you'll find it as interesting as I did. And just to introduce my guest... They are a queer writer and psychotherapist from the northeast of England. They can be found writing therapy tips, poetry, anti-oppression rants, short stories, and more on their website iamkatylees.com, and that will be in the show notes. They're currently writing a good mental health guide for trans and non-binary people, which is going to be published hopefully this year (I'm keeping my fingers crossed) by Jessica Kingsley publishers, and I'll share all of the relevant links so you can go and follow their work after the episode today. I've already asked them about recording another episode together so look out for that, hopefully around the same time as the book launches. And so without further ado, allow me to introduce my wonderful guest, Katy Lees.

Gem: Hi Katy! Thanks so much for joining me.

Katy: Hi Gem. It's really nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Gem: I'm so excitred. No worries. So I always start often start with asking people just to introduce themselves and their various intersections. Would you be happy to do that?

Katy: Absolutely, I would. So my name is Katy Lees. I use they/them pronouns. I am a white mid-fat, trans and non-binary queer person from the northeast of England. And I am a writer and a psychotherapist.

Gem: Great, thank you. So there's lots to unpack there. And I think the first thing that comes to mind is that you used mid-fat, which for some people listening if they're not kind of familiar with the terms of how people identify, I guess, yeah, if they're not used to how people identify within fatness, how would you describe the different levels?

Katy: Sure. Um, so generally speaking, at least in the circles of fat activism, that I tend to roll in there tends to be the idea that different levels, I guess, different types of fatness are subject to different kinds of oppression and different kinds of pressure from society. So generally speaking, there's the idea that there are small-fat people who might find trouble finding clothes, and probably have a difficult time getting medical care, but can otherwise expect to be able to do up their seat belt in a car, be able to fit into chairs when they go out into the world. And then kind of going up from there, you've got mid-fat people like me, who experience more difficulty finding clothes, fitting into the world, maybe more difficulty accessing appropriate medical care, and then you've got large-fat people. And then you've got the death fatties, who are generally people who are considered (huge air quotes here) "morbidly obese". And then up from there, you've got infinifat people who face the most oppression from society.

Gem: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. And as I said it, I realised levels sounds really problematic. But yeah, I wonder... I should think about a better word to use for that.

Katy: I understood what you meant. It's quite fun to think myself like that I've levelled up to a mid-fat.

Gem: Like a computer game.

Katy: Yeah!

Gem: Okay, so other parts of your identity that you mentioned are around being trans and non-binary and you're doing some really interesting work around trans and non-binary mental health. I wondered if you could just tell us a bit more about that.

Katy: Sure. So in my psychotherapy work, I mostly work with trans and non-binary people, and also other people in the LGBTQ+ community. And as a writer, I'm currently writing a book for Jessica Kingsley publishers, which is a trans and non-binary guide to good mental health. So as a trans therapist who I mean, I've worked in mental health for basically my whole adult life and also, I've had wonky mental health we'll say for longer than that. Yeah, it felt really important to be doing that kind of work for my community.

Gem: Yeah. And also, I think it's important to mention that you're in the process of writing the book.

Katy: Yeah. I mean, it's been a really interesting experience. Yeah, I feel like, I mean, writing a book is pretty difficult with my therapy practice being pretty full, it's been difficult to find the time, but also I've really loved writing it. I've really loved, I don't know, making, making that kind of space and I guess making something that I don't think exists much, or at all in the world right now. Just kind of making making space where I don't know, that's about mental health from trans people, for trans people and catered to them. Because I think a lot of mental health books that I've found, tend to be about trans and non-binary people for the assumed cisgender people who work with them, often written by cis people. And yeah, it feels like really good, important work, to be hopefully giving trans people good care that helps them to feel better and that is relatively accessible. Yeah, feels good. Also feels kind of terrifying, but it feels good. I think that's just my anxiety speaking.

Gem: Yeah, I like this idea of being terricited. I don't know if you've heard of it before, but like feeling terrified, but excited at the same time.

Katy: That's the that's the one. I feel terricited.

Gem: So thinking about writing a book, what would you say, what has the process been like for you? Have you learnt more things about your own sort of self-care and mental health as a trans or non-binary person?

Katy: Hmm, yeah, I mean, I definitely have going through the process, because I've had to... as I've been doing some things that are so difficult, I've had to be looking after myself, which I haven't historically always been very good at. So it's been a good way to find different ways to care for myself, to explore different meanings of self-care, which I'm already pretty keen on anyway. I think that the idea of self-care has become very commodified and kind of twisted around by capitalism. So I'm already pretty keen on exploring different avenues of self-care that aren't spending money on a bubble bath. But yeah, I think that writing this book has really made me focus on lots of different ways to look after myself, sometimes including having a bubble bath. Yeah, and looking at how much of that I can offer to other people as well. It's been good to revisit ideas that I find very easy to apply to other people as well and maybe less easy to apply to myself. Something about the act of writing something down and sending it into the world as a global truth means that I definitely have to accept that it's gonna be okay, if I'm telling everybody else that it's gonna be okay. It's been a nice reminder.

Gem: Yeah, that's great. And do you think you'll read the book once it's out?

Katy: That's an excellent question. Usually, I try to avoid re-rereading things that I've done, or watching videos I've done or listening to podcasts I've done mostly just kind of through embarrassment. But I think this I might read. Yeah, hopefully, I'll be able to provide some good advice to my future self.

Gem: Yeah. The reason I'm asking is because I run a course called Making Waves and on that course, one of the units is radical self-care and I find every time I return to the unit, I'm like, "Oh yeah, those are the things that help me or those are the things I should be doing" and not should, but I know that they help me feel better. And I'm just wondering, if I was to read a book that I'd written about self-care, how there's something interesting in sort of taking your own advice and that idea of quite often when we work with people the things we're supporting them to do, it can be sometimes stuff that we're also working on ourselves and maybe we're a couple of steps ahead, we've had a bit more practice, but they're still definitely things that we need to hear. I don't know if that resonates with you.

Katy: Yeah, absolutely resonates with me. Yeah, and I think you're right, I think that even to be honest now, as I kind of go through and edit, I'm like, oh yeah this is definitely something that's helpful. I should probably do this.

Gem: I'm really wise. That's really great. And do you know when the books expected to be out yet?

Katy: Well, my, my deadline to hand it in is the end of April so I'm guessing that the book will be out at the end of next year so the end of 2021, or the beginning of 2022.

Gem: This is where the first part of the audio came to an end. And we were then trying to find another way to make the conversation happen. It's also a good opportunity though, to take a few deep breaths, maybe have a stretch, you might want to look at the sky if you can see it from where you are, and grab a drink of water. And while you do that, I just wanted to let you know that I currently am operating a waiting list. So if you think that you might be interested in having one to one coaching sessions with me from March, then head to my website gemkennedy.com where you'll be able to leave your email address and be added to my waiting list. And I'll get in touch with you when I have space available again. And now back to the episode with Katy.

Gem: So one of the things that I quite often like to ask people about is their experience of navigating burnout, because I'm a bit of a geek when it comes to sort of finding out the different ways that people navigate it, because I don't think it can be entirely eradicated when you do this kind of work or avoided. And I know that we've talked in the past about your experience of burnout, and it'd be great if you're happy just to share a bit about that, and what things have helped you to cope with that and maybe to navigate it moving forward.

Katy: Yeah, absolutely. So I have a really, really long history of burnout, basically because of the environment that I was raised in and also because I'm a pretty anxious person, I spent the first 20 years of my life, basically just working and working and working and eventually hit a point where I couldn't do that anymore in my early to mid 20s. And just completely burned out, it was a really bad time. It was like I wasn't just burned out on work, I was burned out on people I was burned out on... I had really bad problems with executive dysfunction so I basically would go to work, talk as little as possible, not feel very much, come home, lie on my bed, and then kind of stare at the wall until it was time to go to work again. Really, really horrible times, which I basically managed to get through with a combination of medication and therapy. So it's something that I'm really, really mindful about now in my 30s, because I hope to never be in that place again. So I'm still pretty... I still work pretty hard, but I'm much more mindful with things like taking breaks, making sure that I'm really doing that kind of base self-care stuff, which I think is surprisingly easy to ignore if you come from a culture of working yourself into the ground, basically. So making sure that I'm well fed, well rested, I'm in a safe place, I feel supported, dealing with any kind of chronic pain issues, things like that have been really, really important to me.

Katy: And I think something that's really, really helped me to maintain not being too burnt out is I guess, working to have an answer to any critical voices that I have. So I have a pretty strong, loud, critical voice, you know, the kind of voice where I don't know, you accidentally spill your coffee in the morning and your head just kind of yells at you for the rest of the day that you're an awful person. And was surprised that that was taking up like a lot of energy, and a lot of my time. So having having a positive answer to that, being able to spend less time humouring that negative voice has been an absolute lifesaver for me over the last year or so.

Gem: Yeah, and for me I didn't even realise that that critical voice was a critical voice or was a separate part of me. I thought that was just the way that it was supposed to be and that everyone had that. And I'm sure to some extent, you know, people do have some degree of critical inner voice but yeah, it wasn't until I really started doing work on it that I realised that that wasn't something that everyone experienced all the time and that it didn't have to be like that. And parts work, I think has been really great for that like separating out the different parts of myself and looking at what they're there for, and maybe reassigning them to a different job. When you notice that it doesn't have to be that way, how freeing that can be, but also challenging. There's still been a lot of work to actually start to sort of diminish it or get rid of it in some way.

Katy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's absolutely been my experience as well. In person-centred therapy, the kind that I do, there's this idea of having configurations of self, so that your core self, I guess, is made up of lots of different kinds of personalities. And I definitely had the experience where I didn't see that as a different configuration of me, I thought it was just me and that I kind of deserved it. So being able to separate that out into something I don't have to take into the core of me has been super helpful.

Gem: And I wonder if people listening to this may be finding this really relatable, too. I wonder if there are any kind of techniques or things that you would say, would be really helpful with just noticing that and maybe quietening it a little?

Katy: I think something that's been really helpful for me over the last couple of years, has been answering that critical voice by taking what I know is global and making it personal. So by that I mean... I personally hold the belief that everybody deserves respect and that's something that I know to be true. So if I think that everybody deserves respect, and I'm part of everyone, that means that I deserve respect.

Gem: Mm hmm.

Katy: So if there's a critical voice in my head that's saying I don't deserve respect, because I'm a bad person then I can say, well, I know that everybody deserves respect so I deserve respect. And that's been particularly helpful for me.

Gem: Yeah, I can imagine. And thinking back to burnout, I wonder if there's... was there any particular sort of thing that you tried or thing that you would tell yourself that you noticed was really helpful in bringing you out of that really intense burnt out phase?

Katy: Hmm. That's a good question. I think something that contributed to me having the big burnout, was that I was trying to do a lot of very important but very difficult things at once. And I think that when you're in that place and you've been in it for a while, it starts to feel like it's gonna be forever, especially when you come from a culture where it's expected that that is forever. That when you finish with those really important things, you go on to the next one straight away. You have to keep climbing the ladder and I think something that helped was promising myself that I wouldn't keep climbing the ladder, that when I was done with these important things I would be done, even if that was just for a little while. But knowing that I wouldn't have to be trapped in the cycle that I was in of just having to do the next big thing, was something that I think gave me a future back and stops me from just being stuck in a really difficult present.

Katy: And I think mostly, I've kept that promise to myself, I am writing a book, which is difficult, but I also know that I was big air quotes "supposed to" do a PhD after I finished my psychotherapy studies. Even though I didn't want to it was the path that was expected of me and so far, I've managed to resist. I could promise myself that there wasn't going to be another rung on the ladder, that I was going to finish these very important things. I was going to do the best that I could do, even if that was just passing, like scraping a pass when it was fully expected that I was going to get full honours or whatever. I just promised myself that if I could scrape a pass at this, I was absolutely going to cut myself a break and I was going to have a rest basically and let myself recover. And so...

I’m joined again by researcher and former professor Dr. Lindo Bacon (they/them). In this very special follow up recording, Lindo and I reflect on our experience of recording part one. We talk about the power of letting go of perfectionism, connecting with each other from a place of vulnerability and the gift of feeling into our bodies during conversation.

About Lindo: For nearly two decades Lindo has taught courses in social justice, health, weight and nutrition. They are also the author of Health at Every Size: The Surprising Truth About Your Weight, and co-authored Body Respect: What Conventional Health Books Get Wrong, Leave Out, or Just Plain Fail to Understand About Weight. Their newly released book, Radical Belonging: How to Survive and Thrive in an Unjust World (While Transforming it for the Better) , takes their inspiring message beyond size, to shaping a culture of empathy, equity, and true belonging.

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Find out more about Lindo’s work and books on their website

Lindo’s new book Radical Belonging: How to Survive and Thrive in an Unjust World (While Transforming It For the Better)

Follow Lindo on Instagram or Twitter or Facebook

adrienne maree brown’s new book, We Will Not Cancel Us

Full Transcription

Gem: Welcome to Queers & Co., the podcast and self-empowerment, body liberation and activism for queer folx and allies. I'm your host, Gem Kennedy, my pronouns are they/them and I'm a transformational practitioner and coach living in the UK.

Gem: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Part 2 of the episode with Dr. Linda Bacon. If you haven't listened to Part 1 yet, I'd highly recommend that you head there first and hear that. Otherwise, this may not make much sense. If you've already listened to Part 1, then I won't keep you any longer and I'll let you get straight to listening to Part 2.

Gem: Hi Lindo! Thanks so much for joining me again.

Lindo: Oh, it's great to see you again, Gem.

Gem: Yeah, and it's really nice to actually see you as well, rather than just to hear you because before we both said that was a bit disconnecting.

Lindo: Right, right. Definitely, I think it's gonna be... it's so much easier to feel present when you can actually see somebody.

Gem: Yeah, absolutely. And what we were talking about in between when we recorded the first episode, which was towards the end of December - I think was the 22nd of December actually - and this is kind of like a reflection part, I guess, where we had this experience and it's about what has come out of that. I found it a really interesting experience. I don't know how it's been for you.

Lindo: Yeah, it has been quite a learning experience. I know right after we talked, I had felt a bit of disconnection in our conversation, and I felt awkward with you running the podcast for other people, because it just didn't feel like I was fully present in it. It just didn't feel like it was as powerful as it could be. And I felt a lot of shame for that. And so I contacted you and asked you not to run it and let me just be thoughtful a little bit about what was going on. And what was your experience when I contacted you and said that?

Gem: Yeah, cos it was at the end of the recording wasn't it that we talked and you'd said that you were feeling a bit disconnected? And I think my immediate thought was, "Oh gosh, I've done something wrong. They're not keen on the questions that I was asking, or I kind of messed up in some way". And you were really reassuring that that wasn't the case, it was just that you weren't feeling it that day and you'd had a lot going on. And, I think for me, I had lots of thoughts. So I guess if I'm being really vulnerable, inadequacy was one that came up because I've read your books and I really enjoy your work and I've found it really helpful in my own work, and then to have that opportunity to interview you felt really exciting. But then for that outcome where there was that kind of disconnection, I thought, "Oh, I've done something wrong. And maybe I shouldn't have sort of put myself forward for it, after all."

Gem: But actually, in the conversation that we had just after we'd recorded, what came up for me was so many things around what it means to be vulnerable in conversation with people... we've never met each other before but the fact that you were able to share that that was what was going on for you was really, really insightful for me. And I think I remember you saying to me, would I have said anything if if you hadn't brought it up? And I remember just having such a strong sense of no - that would have been so rude. Like I couldn't say, "Oh Lindo, I didn't think you were feeling it today" or "What was that about?" But I had such a strong sense while we were recording that that energy was just like, not there. And we were just saying before we started recording now that when you listen back to the episode, you can't really tell. It's not clear but actually being in the conversation, there's something about that intuitive connection between people that you get a sense of... I felt really strongly that this wasn't feeling good for you. And so I learned a lot. That was a very long answer

Lindo: I did too. Yeah. And it's also interesting to me to watch the kind of perfectionism in me, that there's something I want to portray to people, and I only want to be seen at my best, and the protectiveness of not letting... I don't know if vulnerability is... vulnerability is not the right word here because I am vulnerable. I mean but something about not letting what I see as my best self forward is just problematic. And you know, like, the reality is, humans are messy, right? And we're not always fully present. I mean, that would just be exhausting if we were. And sometimes there's a protectiveness that our bodies do for us that's kind of necessary and valuable, and how we can just celebrate that shutting down that happens sometimes as a way of just protecting ourselves so that we can put our best selves forward. All of that is just part of being human, and why can't I just accept that and roll with it? And it's nice to get this beautiful opportunity with you to just kind of acknowledge our humanity and yeah... and the act of doing this just makes me feel such love for you and makes me feel our connection now. So it just feels so clear to me how important the vulnerability and just sharing our humanity is to connection, to happiness, to belonging, to everything.

Gem: Totally. So yes, so many things there. I think I remember when you got back in touch with me and said you'd listened to the episode and we could rerecord it, but you think it's fine to go out as it is. And I remember thinking, like feeling a really strong sense of not wanting to not put out what we'd recorded if it was okay with you, because it felt like such a waste to have spent an hour together and then to just be like, oh we'll record it again and that'll go in the bin. And it didn't feel good. And so then there was something about... and I felt actually felt nervous to suggest it, but something about reflecting on this experience that felt really useful, and actually more important than having an "perfect" podcast. And because that when we met that was a snapshot in time and I remember you saying that you'd recorded like 15 in the last couple of weeks, 15 different podcasts, which first of all, must be exhausting and second of all, how could we possibly expect ourselves to be entirely switched on for all of that time? Like it's not realistic, is it for every podcast to be as good as the last. People are only seeing us for a snapshot of that time. But yeah, there has to be something about putting things out into the world that are okay, and not having to be perfect all the time.

Lindo: Exactly and I'm thinking right now about a huge transition I made in my public speaking. Originally, I was trained as a scientist about how you get organised, you get your point across to people. And in all of that, there's no mention of the audience and connection with them. It's talking at them, right? And as soon as I made the transition in my speaking to stopping that process, to just going into my talks with the ideas I wanted to get across, but without the clear sense of this is how you do it, but instead just looking at the audience, seeing the reaction and throwing in stories to kind of illustrate the point so that I can make it real for people. All that just totally changed my speaking. And from then on, the audience was always the first thing that was in my thoughts. And now, obviously on a podcast we can't do this, because I don't see them. And I'm not making that connection. But number one, I can see you and number two, I can also drop the idea that there's something I need to get across and figure out how to just be really present with what's going on for me emotionally in the moment. So I'm not trying to prove anything, but I'm just being and somehow that allows for something else to happen in the conversation that becomes very powerful. So this has been my practice with podcasts is to try to get my mind blank when I go in and instead just be there in the moment and allow things to come up. And that's been really quite powerful because I've really been connecting with the questions that I get much better. And I think it makes for so much more interesting than if I were to come with all these points I wanted to make.

Gem: Yeah, definitely. And that idea of sort of spending an hour in someone's company and I mean, I guess you get the very typical questions that anyone's going to ask you about your book, or the things that you would expect when you're doing that kind of work. But yeah, that idea of showing up. And we mentioned actually, I think I said in the email about the importance of being able to show up as ourselves, and I think that's something else that I learned from our conversation, because I noticed at the end, there was... I don't know, there was just something about like modelling that ability to show up as yourself that is contagious. You showed up as yourself, and you weren't kind of what's the right word, you weren't covering up how you were feeling or ignoring it was there. And then just having been able to do that, and then say at the end, "I'm not really feeling it today". It's felt really empowering for me to know that is okay. Even though I think if someone had asked me before, I would have known that was okay. But just actually to see it being done in a context maybe where we have all of this like professionalism that we have to portray to people. And I feel like I'm blabbering a little bit, but actually being able to show up as yourself is something that, yeah, I think is really powerful. And it's definitely something that is a work in progress I think for a lot of people, certainly for me.

Lindo: Yeah. And that blabbering was beautiful. I think it brought across another point that I have to trust the person asking me questions that, this isn't just about me, like you're setting the stage and have things to offer as well, and how much fun it is to just be in dialogue and to see what comes because whatever I say is dependent upon what you set up. And particularly right now, I feel so connected to you. And the conversation is definitely something that's happening between us. It's not something I'm imposing. And that's great, too. And what that means is every podcast I've done has taken on such different directions, even if some of the questions were similar that doesn't mean that the podcast itself was similar. Because there's something about the energy that happens between two people that transforms a moment. And I think that's always beautiful to note.

Gem: Yeah, absolutely. I've been thinking a lot about the title of your book, Radical Belonging, and there's so many ways in which that's shown up just in this experience of recording a podcast together. And the ways in which it's felt, at times, like my belonging maybe would be threatened as in I wasn't good enough or I might be cast out for asking the wrong questions or doing the wrong thing. And this isn't from you. I just mean like society in general, those kind of anxieties that we have. And then there's something about connection and moving through shame, moving through fear, all of those things that you talk about in the book that have felt... Yeah, it almost feels like a microcosm of the things that I've read about in the book that we've kind of experienced together.

Lindo: Right. Yeah, that's so good, and so important. And, yeah, just to bring this out even more clearly, many of us have our personal insecurities coming into any kind of social interaction and so it's helpful if all of us are conscious of that, and how important it is for us to try to create a sense of safety for the other person because even if we're not doing anything wrong, the person might not feel safe because of their past history of social rejection or because of their need to want to be liked and valued. That's just so human. And how to make people feel safe in the world is just so important.

Gem: Yeah. It's funny because I almost notice when I'm being really present, when I come to a point where I can feel you stop speaking, I can still feel that urge to come up with a good question, think of a good thing to say, but actually, I'm really just enjoying just being here. And just allowing things to settle. And I'm sure that people listening will also relate to a lot of what we're talking about that kind of yeah, I guess it's even harder at the moment with COVID and most people being... or a lot of people being locked down because there's even less opportunity for connection. And especially as someone who's part of a marginalised community, there's even less opportunity for connection, because even in our local communities, there may not be people who are accepting of non-binary, queer, trans folks, folks in any other marginalised community. It just feels like a powerful place to be to be in conversation with people that you have, yeah, like a shared something with.

Lindo: Definitely. And I want to just grab on to that point you made about how to be in conversation with someone, and to let up on this thinking about the things that you want to impose on the conversation. And actually just hearing the other person, right, and letting go of trying to formulate what you want to say. So that your response then is just spontaneous and based on what you heard, as opposed to (what you) believe is important to bring to the conversation. Like how important it is to see people, to hear them, and to be reacting to that so that you don't get caught up in reacting to like your idea of them.

Gem: Mm hmm. And I think quite often in these kinds of conversations, where there's sort of active listening going on, an exchange of ideas rather than there being a particular agenda, one of the things I found really useful earlier to check in with when we were talking was what's going on in my body. And I got like a really warm sense in my stomach and around my chest and shoulders, just felt maybe like being cocooned. It felt really warm and fuzzy. And I love that. Being present in conversation with people and being able to not only feel like you... because often we feel like we have to be so in tune with what they're saying so we can formulate the next thing as you're saying, but also actually having time to step back and notice what's going on in our bodies, what is our response to that not just on a thinking about what we're going to say level, but also in our body, like what is our felt sense of what they're sharing?

Lindo: Wow, that's really beautiful. And as you were saying all that, I gave myself permission to just kind of relax into my body and feel it. And yeah, it's a beautiful feeling. It helped me to just dip into my body. And I wonder too, if this is just a beautiful note to end on that, you know, leave people with this idea of how to just form a connection with someone in the moment. I mean you and I started out as strangers not too long ago and somehow, we've come to this place where the two of us just feel relaxed in our bodies, relaxed in our thought processes, able to just kind of speak from the heart and how good that feels. And thank you, Gem for giving me that today in my day.

Gem: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for allowing us to have this space because I think it's it's felt full of learning in all sorts of ways. So I'm really appreciative of your time and your energy.

Lindo: Yeah. It's mutual.

Gem: Thank you. Does that feel like a good place to stop, Lindo?

Lindo: It does to me, is there more that you wanted to do?

Gem: No, I feel like I'm almost just bathing in this really like... I don't know, I can't really explain it. Like a golden kind of good feeling. And yeah, strange as that might sound.

Lindo: No, it's not strange. And you might want to keep that in the recording.

Gem: Yeah.

Lindo: Yeah, no, I think this felt really good.

Gem: So there you go. I hope you enjoyed listening to both parts of the episode, and that you're able to let go of perfectionism in some way in your life too. It's definitely something that I am very conscious of in my life.

Gem: There won't be a new episode next week because I've decided with this series to release three episodes a month and then have some space for rest and integration as well. But keep a lookout for the next episode which will be out on the 10th February. Until then, take care. Bye!

I’m joined by researcher and former professor Dr. Lindo Bacon (they/them) for a special two part episode. For nearly two decades they have taught courses in social justice, health, weight and nutrition. They are also the author of Health at Every Size: The Surprising Truth About Your Weight, and co-authored Body Respect: What Conventional Health Books Get Wrong, Leave Out, or Just Plain Fail to Understand About Weight. Their newly released book, Radical Belonging: How to Survive and Thrive in an Unjust World (While Transforming it for the Better) , takes their inspiring message beyond size, to shaping a culture of empathy, equity, and true belonging.

We talk about radical belonging, how hearing Audre Lorde speak changed their life, identifying as trans and taking up space, how coping methods serve us and lots more. Be sure to listen to Part 2 after this!

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Find out more about Lindo’s work and books on their website

Lindo’s new book Radical Belonging: How to Survive and Thrive in an Unjust World (While Transforming It For the Better)

Follow Lindo on Instagram or Twitter or Facebook

adrienne maree brown’s new book, We Will Not Cancel Us

Full Transcription

Gem: Welcome to Queers & Co. - the podcast on self-empowerment, body liberation and activism for queer folx and allies. I'm your host, Gem: Kennedy. My pronouns are they/them and I'm a transformational practitioner and coach living in the UK.

Gem: Hey folx! Welcome to Episode 3. There are two parts to this week's episode. So we're doing things a little bit differently and it will all become clear why. First of all, let me introduce who my guest is. It's someone who I was incredibly excited to talk to and someone whose books I've really enjoyed over the years. They're a researcher and former professor and for nearly two decades have taught courses in social justice, health, weight and nutrition. If you're involved in fat activism or body liberation of any kind, then you will have heard of their books Health at Every Size and also Body Respect and their newly released book, Radical Belonging: How to Survive and Thrive in an Unjust World, While Transforming It for the Better takes their inspiring message beyond size to shaping a culture of empathy, equity and true belonging.

Gem: If you haven't already read Radical Belonging, I'd highly recommend that you do. It's a brilliant book and it brings together so many important ideas and lots of different research. So my guest is, if you haven't guessed already, Dr. Lindo Bacon. Not only was it great to have a conversation with them, but also I learned so much from it. So just to quickly explain why the episodes are in two parts, we had our first podcast recording on 22nd December and during the interview, it just felt like the energy was not quite there, or the connection wasn't there in the way that it might be. I know that I was pretty burnt out at the end of December and I know Lindo mentioned that they were finding it hard to connect, and they'd had a lot of podcast recordings, I think 15 in the last couple of weeks. So we both kind of finished the recording, feeling like maybe something wasn't quite right. And Lindo asked if they could have listened to the episode, and we could kind of sit with it before we thought about what to do next. And so I sent them the episode, and they got back in touch after Christmas, saying that they would be happy for me to release the episode, they didn't feel that it was particularly inspired, but they feel that it is good enough and they're trying to work around perfectionism and you know, not kind of allowing that to stop them releasing things or to stop them in their work. And all of that resonated with me so much. They said that I could release the episode, or we could re-record the episode in January sometime. And there was part of me that felt really strongly that it was important to release the first part, considering we were both okay with it, just because neither of us maybe felt we were at our best, rather than re-recording the episode and getting rid of the first part.

Gem: I suggested to Lindo that we have a conversation about that experience, and what we may have learned from that, because I know that I certainly learned an awful lot. And I've noticed a lot of shame and a lot of discomfort coming up around releasing the episode because I know when I listen back to the first part that I'm not responding to Lindo in a way that I maybe would like to, and feeling that it's not my best work. And it's really interesting that Lindo also felt that it wasn't their best work. And there's something around allowing that to go into the world and for it not to have to be perfect. So I hope that you get something from it, and that you find it interesting, and I'm sure that you will, because the things that Lindo shares are really insightful. I notice that there's part of me that wanted to caveat the work with like, "Oh, this isn't my best interview, I could have done better. I could have asked different questions, I could have whatever". But, I'm actually going to just be quiet, allow you to listen to it, and encourage you maybe to think about where perfectionism or where the need for something to show you in the right light comes up for you because I know that it certainly comes up for me. And Lindo mentioned in the second part that it comes up for them as well. So the first part is the interview that we had on the 22nd of December. And then the second part is an interview that we had last week, just discussing what happened and what we are taking away from it. If you have any thoughts or there's anything you'd like to share, then please do head to either the Facebook group Queers & Co. or you can drop me an email [email protected]. So without further ado, I'll introduce you to part one of my conversation with Dr. Lindo Bacon.

Gem: Hi Lindo, thank you so much for joining me.

Lindo: Oh, delightful to be chatting with you, Gem.

Gem: Yeah, I'm really excited. And I was just saying I've got a page full of notes of lots of things to ask. And I guess the first thing I would say is just how much I've enjoyed Radical Belonging, and I've read your other two books as well, but this feels like a real, I don't know, like a real combination of all kinds of cool stuff so I'm really excited to talk about it.

Lindo: That's awesome. I really put my heart and soul into that book. So I feel like... it's kind of like I'm out there on the line right now. And it's scary having this book out. And, you know, I'm in the early stages of getting feedback.

Gem: Yeah, and I'm thinking about the place that it came from as well. I heard you mention in an interview that actually it came from - and I should mention the title so that people if they haven't read it can actually have like a context of what we're talking about - The book is called Radical Belonging: How to Survive and Thrive in an Unjust World, While Transforming It for the Better. And the thing that's so fascinating is it came from you writing a journal on your history of unbelonging.

Lindo: Yeah. And you know, another way of framing what you just said is, it really just came from trauma, you know, from the first step of the book was just writing about the ways in which I felt left out in the world, and then noticing how that set me up to be distrustful and scared of people. And, yeah, and so the first writing where I was focused on all of that was really hard. But fortunately, I also had a lot of perspective. So I went back and recognised that, hey, but that's not all me. I also... there's a lot of happiness in my life and I feel like there's a lot of stuff that's really extraordinary and unique about me too. And part of that came from the struggles, you know? I had to develop... I learned to develop empathy for others, and feel more deeply, and so there was a lot of good, and so I was able to kind of go back to my original journal and kind of look at what strategies I put in place to survive it. And, you know, then I was able to go back a third time, and use my skills as a scientist to explain biologically how all that stuff gets embedded in us physically, and how we take control and can manage it, and also change our physiology in ways that are amazing, to help us to feel more love and connection for other people. So yeah, I know, that's a really long-winded response, but I suppose I'm just really feeling what it's like to release so much of myself into the world.

Gem: Mm hmm. Yeah. And it's very different, I guess, from your previous two books, which still had the social justice lens, and were still thinking about marginalised communities but there was more emphasis maybe on the science and not so much emphasis on your personal story. And I guess, like queerness is woven throughout this book as well, which is really exciting. So I can totally hear that that must feel very different from putting that kind of work into the world compared to what you may have done before.

Lindo: Exactly. It feels like now if people have problems with the book, it's more personal.

Gem: Oh, I have so many questions about that. But I guess, yeah, I guess let's take it from the top. You mentioned kind of in the process of writing this book around feeling this sense of unbelonging and lots of different parts and times of your life. I wondered, I guess, at what point you got involved in social justice or where you became more conscious of it, or it was on your radar?

Lindo: It was a slow boil. I think I grew up in a very conservative household. And so I suppose pre-college, my politics were probably pretty far to the right. But when I went to college, I think it opened me up to a much wider world. And I started to be much more open to social justice. But I'm not sure that I really developed my commitment to change making until well, actually, that's not true. Soon, soon after college, when I went to graduate school, I was already started to focus on social justice issues. I guess it's really been president for much of your life.

Gem: Yeah. Hmm. And have you seen that shift over time, because I guess now your work, and this is my interpretation, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess now your work feels like it's more rooted in your queerness and being trans like you're able to kind of weave that in a bit more, whereas before it was maybe more focused on body liberation, how have you noticed that it's developed and shifted over time?

Lindo: Yeah, it's interesting, because I think the central driving issue has always been body liberation but I think in the early stages, I wasn't really even able to envision trans. I didn't even recognise that that was part of it. And I think that the story that I told in my older books where I was focused more on weight was mainly because that's the only story that we're told in eating disorders, you know, that I was told that I was a girl and I was told that girls want to be attractive to boys and girls fear fatness, because it's thinness that gets you attractiveness and rewards in that hetero normative world.

Lindo: And I, I honestly believe that that was my own eating disorder story, because that was the only thing that I could envision, like, there wasn't much trans representation, there wasn't. I didn't know of another world. And so that's what I was writing in my earlier books. And it was only later in life, that I discovered that my issues around my body had more to do with not ever feeling like I was a girl. And that the world viewed me in that way because that's the designation they put on people that had, you know, my particular body type.

Gem: I'm thinking about one story in particular that you share in your book around when you ended up following a group who you later found out were lesbians into a talk at university or college. And the person giving the talk actually turned out to be Audre Lorde.

Lindo: Right. Yeah, that was a pretty profound turning point for me, although I'm not sure that I totally, or in fact I know, that I didn't totally understand it at the time, but piecing it together later on, Audre Lorde really changed my life. So let me tell that story to listeners who probably haven't read the book.

Gem: Please do.

Lindo: Yeah, it was early college and in college, particularly in the early years, I felt like such a geek, like I was just kind of watching the world, and I never really felt like I fit in. And there were a group of people that were in a lot of my classes that I always admired. And, you know, they had a social life and they were active. And I was always kind of jealous of them. And one day, it was like a Friday night or something. And I was about to just go back to my dorm room and just be by myself and I see a bunch of them wandering around campus. And I was kind of wondering, you know, so what do the cool kids do at night on Friday night? And so I just started to follow them. And I ended up following them into an open room. And not even knowing what was going to be happening in that room. And just as I got in, the doors were closing, I was the last one of the last people let in, and there were very few seats left. And so I had to go sit like front and centre, which is usually something that I avoid, and I wouldn't like to be in the back. And I had no idea what was about to happen.

Lindo: And then the speaker walks in and as you mentioned, it was Audre Lorde, who was someone that I had never heard of before. And honestly, Lorde is a woman that has this incredible presence. She's just this, this large woman who emanates power, and she came out and these bright, colourful robes and really just... Yeah, I don't know what else to say except that like, she just has such a strong presence. And it was so intimidating to me. And the first thing she says by way of introduction was something like, "My name is Audre Lorde and I'm a black lesbian, feminist poet", or something on that order. And then she looks around the room. And out of everybody in the room she just points to me and she says, "You, who are you?" and I'm sitting there and I'm just panicking. And the panic set in for me as soon as I heard the word lesbian because lesbian wasn't something that I had ever considered for myself until that moment. There was something in that word that made me realise that, you know, maybe there's something here, maybe, and maybe, you know, I just came to a talk by a lesbian, maybe everybody in this room is going to think I'm a lesbian. And I was shaking. And I'm trying to get her to, you know, move on to the next person and not talk. And she's having none of it. And she just keeps pushing me and saying "Identify yourself". And I say things like, "Well, I don't like to put myself into categories". She didn't like that.

Lindo: Then, you know, I said something like, "Well, I'm a white woman". And she just looks at me with such disdain. And it wasn't because of my whiteness, or saying that I was a woman it was because, that was so unimaginative. I mean, it was so like... there's so much more to our identities than that. And so she's calling on other... she gives up on me. And then she starts calling on other people in the room, and everybody's throwing out all of these much more colourful adjectives. And you know, some people are homos, and some people are queer, and some are socialists, but the thing is that everybody else with what they were naming, they were saying with pride, whereas I felt like I had to hide and didn't want to show up.

Lindo: And Audre's point in all of that, which again, I didn't really understand til later, was that we have to own our identities. And if we don't own our identities, we give the larger culture, the power to define them and define them as good or bad. And that, you know, she took on the word lesbian with pride. And it was just an integral part of who she was, and she wasn't going to feel any shame for it. Whereas for me, that word lesbian conjured up something that was ugly and bad and wrong. And it wasn't a label I could even consider for myself, because I was allowing other people's definition of the word to get in the way of being able to look at lesbians or possibly myself, with pride. And I also just say that... you have read the book...  that I no longer identify either as a lesbian or as a woman. But at the time, those were... I was moving into seeing myself as a lesbian.

Gem: Yeah. And those shifts in our identity are super interesting to me as well and there's something there around reclaiming words that have been used in sort of negative ways, for example, queer or lesbian, and actually proudly owning those identities. But then also how identity changes over time. And it's interesting at that age that the extent of your identity in that moment, when asked was white women, and how much more colourful and kind of varied, it can become over time if we allow ourselves to actually engage with finding out who we are.

Lindo: Exactly. Yeah.

Gem: Yeah.

Lindo: And I remember too just like how in awe I was of everybody else, who had found identities that not only they felt you know, they can see themselves in, but they were things that they took pride in.

Gem: Absolutely. And there's a quote here that you mentioned in your book... it's a quote from you, where you talk about the tipping point of the pain of not being seen outweighing the potential risks associated with being visible. And I wonder, after that encounter, and maybe other encounters later on, where were the tipping point for you where you decided, "No, I do now identify as for example, more recently, trans.

Lindo: Yeah. And actually, that's only come in recent years that I'm identifying as trans. And it's been incredibly freeing. And I'll give you an example. I go on speaking tour now and then, and when I speak...

In this episode, I’m joined by Spiritual Healer, Body Positivity Advocate, poet and artist, Jade Elouise (Bodiposipoet). Her activism, creative outlets and spiritual work all centre around advocating for social justice, equality and equity for marginalised bodies on a systemic level, while also promoting self-healing and self-acceptance on a personal one.

We chat about Jade’s work to reclaim the co-opted body positivity movement, how spirituality and activism can work so well together, speaking out about spiritual bypassing, queering psychology, the power of creativity for self-expression and lots more!

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

You can find out more about Jade’s work by following these accounts on Instagram: @bodiposipoet, @reclaimingbopo and @asafespacetogrow

 Head to Jade’s Etsy shop to buy some beautiful art!

Full Transcription

Gem: Welcome to Queers & Co., the podcast on self-empowerment, body liberation and activism for queer folx and allies. I'm your host, Gem Kennedy, my pronouns are they/them and I'm a transformational practitioner and coach living in the UK.

Gem: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Episode 2. I hope you've all had a good week despite lockdown. I'm currently snuggled in my dressing gown, because it's absolutely freezing here and I don't want to go outside and get wood so I can light a fire so I thought I'd record the intro instead. And something keeping me nice and warm at the moment, this sounds like such a segue, are the feelings that I got from having this interview with my guest today. I'm sure that you're going to get a lot out of our conversation. I know I definitely did. And yeah, without further ado, I'll introduce her to you. So her name is Jade: Elouise, also known as bodiposipoet. She is a spiritual healer, body positivity advocate, poet and artist. Her activism, creative outlets and spiritual work all centre around advocating for social justice, equality and equity for marginalised bodies on a systemic level, while also promoting self-healing and self-acceptance on a personal one. I hope you enjoy the episode. And I'd love to hear your thoughts afterwards so do head over to the Facebook group to join in the conversation. So now over to the wonderful Jade Elouise.

Gem: Hi Jade. How are you?

Jade: Good thank you. How are you?

Gem: I'm good, thank you. Thanks so much for joining me, I'm really excited to talk to you.

Jade: Oh, thank you for having me.

Gem: Not at all. It would be great if you're happy to just introduce yourself for anyone who hasn't come across your work before.

Jade: Yeah, sure. So my name is Jade Elouise, but I go by Bodiposipoet. I am a spiritual healer and life coach. I'm an artist and I am a body positivity and self-love advocate and activist. So most of my work online focuses around learning to love your body, but also advocating for all bodies and equality for all bodies.

Gem: Thank you. And there's so much to unpack there. I know we talked before about kind of digging into all the different aspects of your work so maybe if you're happy to let's start off with how you kind of got into body positivity because I know that's a huge part of what you do.

Jade: Yeah. So I think like most people, I struggled with body image growing up. My weight, and the way I looked was always made quite a big deal. And so I didn't really have a great relationship with myself and my body. And then when I was in my teens, I kind of came across self-love movements online and I slowly started to learn to love myself more, and just advocate for my right to exist in my body without fear or anxiety or pressure. And when I was in those self-love communities, I slowly came across body positivity. And I realised that I resonated with body positivity just as much, if not more than, self-love because not only was it saying I deserve to love myself, but it was also saying actually, I deserve to live in the world without fear and I deserve to be able to have the same experiences as everyone else. Equally and equitably. So I think body positivity was sort of a saviour for me in a lot of senses in just being at home in myself.

Gem: Yeah, and how did that change your relationship with your body?

Jade: Oh, massively not just my body, but it changed who I was as a person because I wasn't afraid anymore to just exist. I think so many of us are fearful of rejection and of humiliation and of people not accepting who we are. And I was so afraid of that for so much of my life. But with body positivity, I reached a point where I thought not only now do I have the power to stand within my convictions and be a representative of who I am and my body but also I have the power to uplift other people. And to explain to them why all bodies matter.

Gem: Yeah, I love that and did your work come before that or during it or afterwards?

Jade: I think for the most part online, I was just trying to find a way to express myself. I'd always been quite, well not always, I think the more that I learnt to hide away because of my body, the more I became introverted, so for me being online and advocating for my body was mostly just a celebration and exploration of myself. I wasn't really trying to advocate for anyone other than myself when I started out. I just wanted a space where I could explore my relationship with my body and to see other people doing the same. And then the more that time went on, the more I realised that actually this was bigger than just me, it's about how we treat bodies in our society, and I wanted to be a part of making changes towards that. So it slowly went from me being just about me and about my body to being about all bodies and caring about how all bodies are treated.

Gem: Yeah and your work kind of, I don't want to say tackles, that doesn't sound like the right word. Your work kind of covers that from lots of different angles. So in terms of like creativity and spirituality, and that healing element, and community, obviously as well. But before we dig into all the other things, I wondered about your hashtag that you use, #reclaimingbopo and if you could just tell us a bit more about how that came about?

Jade: Yeah, so #reclaimingbopo I think, mostly came from frustration, if I'm honest. It was more... I was just seeing body positive spaces online being co-opted and claimed by bodies that weren't at the forefront of pushing the body positive movement. Body positivity historically was centred in Black women, Black fat women, and people in the most marginalised bodies and yet, if you scroll through body positive hashtags online, what you'll mostly see is white cisgender women who are straight-sized. And often they're promoting diet culture, which obviously body positivity is not the complete opposite of but it does try to tackle. And I just find it so frustrating, because when I started in self-love and body positivity communities, there was that diversity, there was that representation of everybody. And these body positivity spaces had just lost their meaning. And I was just looking through all of these hashtags and I just thought, you know, what can we do about this? Have we lost body positivity forever? Or is there some way that we can reclaim it? And so it was almost born overnight, just out of frustration, I set up the hashtag and I wrote a post about I wanted to start advocating for reclaiming bopo. And I set up a Facebook page, and I just thought, I'm going to try and make a safe space for marginalised bodies, where they can advocate for themselves again, and where they can centre themselves in the movement that was always meant to centre them.

Gem: Yeah and what has that been like, kind of reclaiming that and seeing how people may have started using the hashtag in ways that maybe you didn't imagine and in ways that you did imagine or hoped for?

Jade: Yeah, I wasn't really sure what the response would be to it to be honest. And the profile on Instagram and Facebook is still quite small, in terms of kind of comparative body positivity pages and things like that, but the community there is very strong in its conviction that body positivity should be reclaimed. And I love when I see people use the hashtag. And I love when people tag the #reclaimingbopo page in their posts, because it just shows me that there are people who still care about what body positivity represents, and to whom body positivity is still really meaningful, and really matters to them, and their journeys of learning to love their bodies. So it's just been amazing. I mean, I'm still working on how I can keep pushing the movement and how I can make it something bigger and hopefully find more people who are feeling a little bit lost with body positivity and aren't really sure where to go and make it an inclusive space where we can reach as many people as possible.

Gem: Yeah, I know, when I first kind of got into body positivity, it felt much more inclusive than it has done in recent times. But also, I don't know what your experience has been but as a queer person and also non-binary person, it's been quite... it was interesting to see actually the lack of representation in sort of mainstream body positive movements around other bodies like obviously bodies of colour, bodies of varying abilities and I think that's part of the reason why I started Queers & Co. to actually find out about queer people's relationships with their bodies, because I think there's such a lack of that information out there. And what's it been like for you existing as a queer person in the body positive movement?

Jade: I think one of the reasons why my relationship with my body has always been a little bit complicated was because I sat at a lot of different intersections. And body positivity is meant to be intersectional. It should take into consideration the different life experiences that people have, depending on what intersections they sit on. So it's not just about fatness, and I think a lot of people make that mistake of thinking, if they live in a body that is seen as fat by our society, that that's all that should matter in terms of entering a body positivity space, but different sizes of people are reacted to differently by our society, but also different categories of people. So, for me, you know, I'm a fat Black woman, but not only that I'm also disabled, and I'm also queer, and those different experiences have... they've sort of made me sort of shrink in on myself because I thought, can I really be all these things, and still be accepted by society? So for a long time, it took me a lot of soul searching to realise that yes, I am queer because I was afraid to be. I didn't know what it meant, could I really be fat and Black, and have these problems with my body and my health, and my mental health, and then somehow still tell people also I'm queer. I just didn't know how I would be accepted. Not only in general society, but also in queer spaces. Was I too other? Was I too different? And I think, actually body positivity helped me in learning that no, all bodies deserve to accept themselves wholly, for all the things that they are. But equally, as body positivity became more co-opted, I realised that actually, I don't fit into this space, as it's being represented anymore.

Gem: Yeah and what is your relationship with community like? Obviously, it's quite difficult right now with lockdown and everything, but I guess you mentioned sort of first finding community around self-love and body positivity online, and what's your kind of day to day community like around those those things as well?

Jade: I found it really interesting, actually, as my perspectives shifted, just in general life, but also on the content that I was putting online, so too did my communities. And I think that's a really beautiful thing about social media is that you find the people that you best align with. So there's so many people online, who I'm so blessed to have met, both online and then shortly, (obviously, it's difficult at the moment) but shortly afterwards in real life, and just knowing that there are people who, if I'm having a bad day, or if I want to express myself around a certain topic, who see me and support me and kind of want to be with me in these experiences, and just share it and what I'm sharing, it means a lot, because I've not always fit in in sort of real life situations, I guess you could put it. I've always felt quite different to my peers. So knowing that there's such a wide range of people online, who I might not have had the privilege to meet in real life, if it weren't for social media and online spaces, is really just a blessing because it saved me from feeling isolated and lonely. And there's so many different communities that I've been a part of, when I first started on social media, I actually started within the pinup communities, because it was the only place that I saw plus-size women being represented. And that's what took me to the self-love communities, and then to the bopo communities. But then also being an artist and a spiritual healer, I have those communities as well that I can turn to for different reasons. So I think community is just such an important thing for feeling supported and not feeling isolated. And just knowing that you have your people there for you and to support you.

Gem: Yeah, absolutely. And so you mentioned there being a healer and a coach. And yeah, it's an intersection that I'm really, really fascinated and super interested in, like spirituality and activism and also creativity. So what do I want to ask first? I guess, I guess it would be really interesting to hear how... Yeah, first of all, let's start with spirituality. And I know that you talk about being intuitive or psychic on your account sometimes and what does that mean to you? And how might it have supported you over time?

Jade: Yeah, I mean, it's something that I've just started sort of publicly embracing, because again, it was just something that I thought, does this also makes me other? But I've always been intuitive. I've always been an empath. I've always felt a lot of what other people were feeling. And I think, in a lot of ways, it linked into my mental health issues. Because if I was around people that were feeling kind of a deep sadness, I would feel it too. So I knew I've always known that sort of intuitive side of me was there. But I didn't really have a name for it. And for a long time, I sort of rejected any sort of religion or spirituality, because it just didn't fit in with my worldview. But it sort of discovered me I suppose. I sort of became a part of spiritual communities. People reached out to me and wanted to help me be in line with my gifts and I always knew that I wanted to help people. I studied psychology at university and I knew that I wanted to go into some sort of counselling or guidance for people because of the life experiences that I'd had and the mental health difficulties that I've been through, it just so happens that psychology wasn't the only way to go about it. I realised that it was also through spiritual health and just sort of being in tune more with our holistic wellbeing and our overall wellbeing. And it's funny because a lot of people are sort of confused by this side of me because it doesn't seem to align with activism, and it doesn't seem to align with body positivity. But to me, all parts of ourselves are connected so you don't just have to be one thing or another, you can be everything that you are.

Gem: Totally and thinking about drawing on spirituality as a way to be an activist, I think there's so much power there. And um, for example, you know, you talk about spiritual bypassing and how just staying "Love and Light", for example, if someone is a spiritual person does not take into account the experiences of marginalised communities, it's very easy for some parts of the spiritual world to just brush over any kinds of oppression. And I wonder if you had any sort of pushback or any difficulties with those ideas from more spiritual communities?

Jade: Yeah, definitely. Oh, it's really difficult. I understand. I do understand, being a spiritual person, I understand this need to want everything to be fluffy and lovely and light, and I get it. But it's not real life, I think a lot of spiritual people are so focused on what they would call the bigger picture. They're so focused on all, you know, we're just here to learn lessons. And looking at sort of spiritual meanings, but not looking at the real life moments and the real life experiences that people are having. And in my belief, we are all here for a human experience, which means that we need to look at how those human experiences differ, and how different people are experiencing the world that we're in. And I've lost, unfortunately, a lot of friends and spiritual mentors even, through them just wanting to overlook the different human experiences that we all have, race and racial equality just wasn't as important to them as it should have been because they were so focused on the idea that we're all one. But if we're all one, then we should all care about how we're all being treated. And if one of us is being treated with inequality, then all of us are affected by that. And all of us should care about making those changes to ensure that that stops happening. And I was really saddened last year, over the summer, with all the Black Lives Matter protests going on, to see friends or people I had considered as friends, dismissing their concerns and dismissing the fact that Black people were being disproportionately killed and mistreated, and they just were unwilling to see it. And so I had to let those people go from my life, because I just knew that we were never going to see eye to eye and I could argue until I was blue in the face. But in truth, I don't see the point in wasting time with people who aren't willing to change their mindset. For me, I think spirituality is also openness, and the willingness to be a part of different people's experiences, and listen and learn. And if those people weren't willing to do that, then unfortunately, I had to...

In this episode, I’m joined by Rubyyy Jones (they/them), an artist, performer and space maker who specialises in the body, the bawdyyy and deep feels. As an artist they work in live art, photography and film, creating a spectrum of experiences from silly to sublime. They are an icon in the world's of Drag, Burlesque and Cabaret and a Mxther and mentor to many in the industry.  

Two years after our first interview together, we chat about rediscovering moving for joy in lockdown, neurodivergence and accessibility, moving back to their childhood neighbourhood in Canada, re-parenting ourselves and the queer community, Tony Clifton as a gateway to drag king-ing and lots more!

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co. 

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Rubyyy and their partner Prinx Lydia created and run The YYY School which includes many different kinds of performance, craft and personal development workshops, both online and in the flesh. Together they share a passion for accessible, atypical and amazing art, The YYY School encompasses all of that.

You can find out more about Rubyyy’s work on the following Instagram accounts:

@rubyyyjones, @lifedrawingrubyyy, @theyyyschool, @prinxlydia

And consider becoming a patron on www.patreon.com/SaveRubyyyJones

Full Transcription

Gem: Welcome to Queers & Co. - the podcast on self-empowerment, body liberation and activism for queer folx and allies. I'm your host, Gem Kennedy. My pronouns are they/them and I'm a transformational practitioner and coach living in the UK.

Hi everyone! Welcome to Series 2 of Queers & Co. I'm so excited to be back and to be able to share all of my brilliant guests with you. I've got 13 guests for this coming series and I've recorded about half of the episodes so far. And honestly, I can't wait to put them all out. I hope you're going to get lots from them and find them interesting, insightful, and maybe share them with anyone that you think might be interested in hearing what my guests have to say as well.

The world is in a pretty different place now from when I recorded the first series in 2020. So I think the last couple of episodes, we'd just gone into lockdown in March 2020 and now here we are in January 2021. The UK has just entered another lockdown. I hope you're all keeping safe and well, no matter where in the world you are.

It felt really meaningful to me to have this guest as my first guest for the second series. I first spoke to them two years ago when I was just starting out with the Queers & Co. project and I interviewed them to find out about their relationship with their body. And since then we have crossed paths multiple times and I just think they are brilliant so I'm really excited to be able to share the interview with you. They are an awesome artist, a performer, a space maker and if you are in need of any kind of cheering up or cool activities to do online, then I'd highly recommend that you check out their work. We talk a bit about that during the episode, but you'll also be able to find out more in the shownotes and I'll point you in the right direction at the end of the episode.

As always, if you enjoy hearing from my guests, please do let them know. It's really nice for them to just know that people out there are listening and that they appreciate what they have to say. And if you'd like to continue the conversation about any of the episodes, please do join the Queers & Co. Facebook group, because we'll be having some discussions in there and also, it's a really great space for anyone wanting to share any projects they're working on, find collaborators or to get any more insights into particular topics that might be of interest to them, to get resources, that kind of thing. So hopefully see you there. And without further ado, I will introduce my first guest of series two - the wonderful Rubyyy Jones.

Hi, Rubyyy, thanks so much for joining me.

Rubyyy: Thanks so much for having me, Gem.

Gem: Not at all. It's exciting, because I was thinking earlier, it's two years since we had our first conversation.

Rubyyy: Oh my gosh, really?

Gem: Yeah, it's gone really quickly. And we've seen each other in between, but like when I interviewed you for the zine, it was two years ago, which is wild. So much has happened since then until now. And I was conscious that the version of the interview that we had before was written so it'd be really cool to have a podcast version and to catch up.

Rubyyy: Well, great. I'm happy to be here. I love chatting with you. So yeah, thanks for asking me to come on the podcast.

Gem: Not at all. And so for anyone who doesn't know who you are, how would you introduce yourself?

Rubyyy: Gosh, well, given these nebulous times we're in at the moment, I feel I don't have as defined a definition of self other than - Hi, I'm Rubyyy (that's with three y's) Jones, and I'm an artist and a space maker.

Gem: Awesome. Yeah, that sounds so different from how you've introduced yourself in other settings before, what shifted there?

Rubyyy: Well, with COVID and all the situations in the world, a big thing that I would have used to describe myself in that interview probably would have been a performer, which of course, I still think of myself as a performer, I always will. But because of how I've had to shift my creative performance aspect of self, it feels a little bit more like I want to use the term artist because it feels like it encompasses more of what I'm doing now. And includes performance as well.

Gem: Yeah, absolutely. And some of the things that you're doing now, people may have come across during lockdown, but they're really exciting. So you have Everybodyyy Move, which you do every weekday, is that right?

Rubyyy: Yes. Well, we do it six days a week because we've added now on Saturday, we do a seated version, because I've done seated versions in the past and they were really popular but I was only doing recorded but now I was like no, we need to do it live. We need that live energy. So we've added that on Saturdays too.

Gem: And how would you describe it for anyone who has no idea what we're talking about?

Rubyyy: Yeah, so Everybodyyy Move is a not-a-workout workout, which is 30 minutes of moving your body, perhaps challenging your body, flexing your body and enjoying your body. A big thing that I feel like I understood last year was I've had different blocks in my life around elective exercise and movement because of my trepidation and trauma from diet culture. And Everybodyyy Move is about supporting each other to move our bodies in a healthy way that is separate to concepts of caloric burn, or abs or any other of that kind of, again, diet culture kind of stuff. It's just about moving your body, improving things like balance, and coordination and all that kind of stuff. It's about supporting each other to do that as well in a way that feels fun and accessible. So it's not a paid class, like you don't have to buy tickets, you just have to be there. And if you want to tip after we gratefully, of course, always accept a little bit of energetic exchange, but we just made it because - we being my partner, Prinx Lydia, and I - we wanted to move more, we wanted to have a kind of support for that. And then we thought, well, probably other people need that too so we just invited other people to join us.

Gem: It's great. And yeah, it's so interesting hearing you say that that was one of the realisations that you've had over lockdown over the past year because I've also had loads of blocks around exercise and movement. And I think we talked before about this - I really used to love dancing and performing and then diet culture kicked in, and like it disappeared - not the love but just I guess the the confidence to do it. And there was something about feeling so uncomfortable with my body getting sweaty, or getting a red face, so many kind of layers upon layers of just not good stuff that I had around exercise. And 2020 was really the year that I actually started to move for enjoyment. And it didn't feel like a punishment any more. So it's really interesting to hear that you've had a similar... I know that you were performing before so obviously you were doing lots of movement anyway, but it's just interesting to hear that you've had a similar kind of realisation or development.

Rubyyy: Yeah, definitely. Because I did do some performing during lockdown, like some online shows and stuff and you know, I really enjoyed it. But it was nowhere near the schedule that I was keeping before and in a lot of ways I was using my performance as a big physical outlet, and in a few ways, and I think what was interesting about all of us in COVID times (it's not like they aren't continuing, of course) but the thing is, it's like a reevaluation of what we want in our life on every level. And understanding that that actually is a choice. And partly, that's because we all ended up kind of almost with a blank canvas in a way. Obviously we had responsibilities and school and work and whatever else, but there was a new level of autonomy somehow through isolation that I think helped a lot of us to realise like, "Oh, I actually want to do this."

Gem: Yeah and I guess when the options that maybe people might feel they have to do are stripped away, for example, if you want to move your body, maybe you would think you have to go to the gym, or you have to go to a class in a studio or something. When those options are stripped away, maybe there's something about rediscovering the types of movement that actually feel good, rather than what you feel you should do.

Rubyyy: Yes, totally. Exactly. And it's like, as well, even though there was a lot of fatphobia around everyone gaining weight in lockdown, I feel like there was also a kind of thing of people feeling that the exercise and the movement itself wasn't directly related to that. It was about feeling active in a number of ways. It was about mental health, it was about, you know, filling your day with things that make you feel good. You know, even though I know a lot of people would have still felt some of those pressures of, you know, "maintaining" during the lockdown or whatever bullshit, I do think a lot of people came to it because they realised how helpful and important it was in different ways basically, in ways separate to what they would have thought before.

Gem: Yeah, and I wonder what the shift's been like for you moving from performing and teaching a lot in person to then kind of having to remodel your business essentially. And I guess make sure that that work is still fulfilling your creative and performance outputs.

Rubyyy: Yeah, that's true. And I've been really lucky that I do feel like the various events we've come up with, we do have a lot of outlets for movement, for feelings, for creating, for, you know, being spontaneous. And it's so funny because people keep saying to me, "Oh, you're killing lockdown and you're making it happen." I'm like, I'm surviving. I am surviving like the rest of you. Like, yes, I want to be doing these things. But also I have to, you know, I've lost all of my income. And so I had to make something happen.

Rubyyy: However - very lucky, I love what we've come up with. I love how we made it work. And a lot of what we've created has been directly to yes supplement and support income, but also supplement and support all the amazing things we got from performing and teaching. So we're pretty much doing things seven days a week, which is kind of interesting, but not like I wasn't doing seven days a week before. And we have the Everybodyyy Move, which is six days a week, which is a really great outlet for community and I know it doesn't, quite feel the same sometimes. But I'm starting to feel like the online community is feeling the same for me, especially as someone who is neurodivergent, I can find in-person stuff actually very, very challenging. And I actually didn't know how challenging it was for me until I didn't have to do that anymore. You know, of course, I miss giving people hugs and sharing a sweaty dance studio together, but I actually don't see myself ever going back to that, at least not in that way. Not with that frequency, I just literally can't do it. And I didn't know I couldn't do it because I didn't know I was coping and just holding it together so much before. Whereas now, I you know, still feel that create connection with my students and community and creativity without dealing with the rest, the processing and the proximity of constantly being around people. I love people, but I'm liking them at the other end of the camera very much as well.

Gem: I so relate to that. And I guess is that something that you expected when you stopped, when lockdown kicked in first and you thought, "Right, that's it, I'm going to have to work from home now"? Was there that kind of realisation that "Wow, this will give me extra processing time and it will be nice to have a bit of space", or was it something that emerged as lockdown went on?

Rubyyy: I think it was a bit of both to be honest, because I was previously living in London, London is so crazy. And to go anywhere, pretty much it would take an hour. So for me to teach an hour dance class, that would be three hours at an absolute minimum of commitment, which included a lot of high stress, like going on the tube and then teaching and then after being depleted from teaching going on the tube again, and the stress of that. I knew that that was going to be removed so I was kind of excited about the prospect of yeah, not having that constant bombardment. But I couldn't have anticipated how much it would help me to be able to do the things I want to do and to do them more completely and with more presence, I guess. Because when you're on camera teaching you have to be really present. To do it well, you have to be really present, you have to be really considering all the factors all at once. You have to be really thinking about many, many things, and I'm really good at that but only for a short period of time.

Gem: That's exhausting!

Rubyyy: Yeah exactly. That's true. That's true. But I can do that, in a way I think is like, you know, special to be honest. Um, but I can't do that when I'm just super exhausted and like taking an hour to get across London to get to a dance studio. Like, I didn't realise how much how much that was until... I thought I knew that's what I mean. I thought I knew I thought, "Oh, gosh, that's a nice to have a little break". Then I was like "Well actually, I can never do that again".

Gem: Yeah, and that I relate to that in so many ways. Like one moving out of London was like "Wow, this is different" and and two I think just in lockdown just having space like having sometimes endless amounts of space where there was a time where we didn't know when it was going to end and today we've just gone back into lockdown in the UK and now they're saying at least until March. So there's like just this long space of time. And what do you put in it, I mean, unless obviously some people are having to still go out to work or work from home, but if you do have these spaces of time, that's something that's really inaccessible in normal everyday life, like to actually explore things creatively or to come up with new ways of doing things.

Rubyyy: Totally and like I noticed it in parts of my life separate to work in that, you know, my partner Lydia and I, we'd really struggled to be able to manage all the day in and day out kinds of stuff. Don't get me wrong, our house wasn't like a tip or anything, but it was like was our laundry always regularly done and never overflowing? And now it feels like we have capacity to actually do human everyday life because we're not putting all of our energy into recovering from work and doing work.

Gem: And talking of being at home, or you've now recently moved to Canada, was it this month or last month?

Rubyyy: It was last month. At the end of the month we moved to Ottawa just for a month because we were really lucky to have a place available there for us to quarantine and have the holidays. And then we moved again last week. And we're in my home town now.

Gem: Oh, my goodness. So whereabouts is that?

Rubyyy: Paris, Ontario, Canada.

Gem: Okay. And how's it going so far?

Rubyyy: So far, so tricky. It's like everywhere I go, I'm hit with 20 years of unprocessed information. From my birth till I left, basically, it feels like I'm just, it's just everywhere. And it's really interesting. I'm living with my mom at the moment and where she lives is  directly in the neighbourhood I grew up with. And it's like, there's that time I fell on my bike and skinned my knee, there's that time I did this, there's that time I did that. I'm liking it, but it's also oh my gosh, I'm not gonna lie so, much daily. Yeah, so much and it's almost like my 13 years in London, again because of a lot of things, I was so disconnected from my home and my family and who I was before I moved to England, it was like, everything was about my life in the UK. And then now it's like, oh yeah, I had a life before then. I'm just processing all that, basically.

Gem: Yeah, that sounds like a lot to process and moving to back to, I'm imagining, quite a different country from what you left, because that was quite some time ago.

Rubyyy: Yes, that's true. And trying to understand what that even means now, you know, it's really tricky. You can have the sense from your own family, or the people that you know, but really trying to get a sense of it kind of like wider, more generally, it feels tricky.

Gem: Yeah. What does that mean for... I have so many questions. Hang on, what do I want to ask? Yeah, I guess I'm thinking, what does that mean for performing? And for the work that you have done in the past? Is

In this episode of Queers & Co., I’m joined by Lola Phoenix, a queer, non-binary disabled American living in the UK. Lola writes and produces a weekly advice column and podcast called Non-Monogamy Help as well as writing on social justice topics from gender to disability to poverty.

We chat about so much juicy stuff, including how labels and identifiers can help us to feel less alone, whether polyamory is a marginalised identity, the importance of taking the time to educate people without jumping down their throats, non-monogamy and creating a podcast and column on it, learning when to step away from an argument, death positivity and so much more!

If you haven't already, be sure to join our Facebook community to connect with other like-minded queer folks and allies.

Find out more about Gem Kennedy and Queers & Co.

Podcast Artwork by Gemma D’Souza

Resources

Find out more about Lola and their work here: Medium and About.Me

Non-Monogamy Help podcast and column

Follow on Lola on Twitter

Read Thirteen Mistakes People Make When Trying Polyamory

Sex Worker Advocacy and Resistance Movement (SWARM)

Email [email protected] to submit a question to Lola on non-monogamy

Full Transcription

Gem: Hi Lola! How are you?

Lola: I'm pretty good. How are you?

Gem: Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. I'm really excited to have you here. Thanks for doing it.

Lola: Yeah, thank you for having me on.

Gem: So, it will be really great to start with—I think I always start with this actually. I make it sound like it's a new invention. It'll be great to start with just finding out a bit more about you and your various intersections.

Lola: Cool!  So yeah, my name is Lola. I am an American immigrant that relocated to the UK. And I'm going to be here for the foreseeable future (unless things change, and it gets a lot easier to immigrate somewhere else).

I identify as queer, autistic, and disabled in lots of other ways. I have a very rare and difficult disorder to deal with. I am also queer. And I grew up in a kind of—I would say it was mostly working class. But there were kind of weird things that made it a little bit middle class. I had middle class grandparents. But my parents were definitely working class/poor. So, there was a lot of mix-up with that.

I think that definitely kind of informs my experience. I'm also a bit on the ace spectrum. And that has had a lot of impact in terms of how I look at things. And yeah, I think that kind of covers most of my intersections.

I am white, so I'm privileged in that way. And I think, unlike the vast majority of my family, I have been to university. So I have also that aspect which has given me a lot of privilege in a lot of ways.

So yeah, that's kind of my background.

Gem: Amazing! Thank you. And there's lots to explore there. And I just wanted to, first of all, for anyone listening who isn't familiar with ace or being asexual, I wonder whether you'd be happy just to maybe explain a bit about what that looks like to you.

Lola: Sure! So for me, I roughly identify as demisexual. Demisexual means—and this is really hard for people to wrap their heads around. It means that I don't tend to be attracted to somebody without some type of emotional bond to them.

And most people would say, “Well, that's how everyone is.” But there's a difference between being willing to have sex with someone and actually being attracted to them. A lot of people will be sexually attracted to people that they don't necessarily know, that they just see, but they aren't necessarily willing to jump in the bed right away with them. But for me, I just don't feel attracted to people right away. It takes a long time for me to be sexually attracted to them.

And just as an addendum, ace people—you know, people have sex without being sexually attracted to people all the time. So, you can still be ace and be interested in sex for other reasons that don't have to do with being sexually attracted to people.

I know it's complicated. And it's a bit of a confusing thing. For me, labels are helpful when they add something to my life. And when they help me understand myself a little bit better, when they helped me clarify my experiences. They're easy ways to explain to people and find other people who have my experiences. But I don't think labels should ever be a prescriptive list that people should have to meet. So they're descriptive, not prescriptive. They should be things that help people.

So there's some times when I will be like, “Oh, am I really demisexual?” because I try to pick apart whether or not I'm sexually or aesthetically or romantically attracted to somebody. And at the end of the day, it's just like this is a label that helps me say, “I noticed that I am different and how I feel attracted to people than the vast majority of people. And this helps me feel less alone.”

Gem: Yeah. Two things actually. So, within labels, I like what you say about them not being prescriptive. It's just a way to identify and also to find other people like you.

And within that, there's a spectrum, right? So it's not like using these labels means that you are absolutely this all the time, and it’s the same for everyone. It's just sort of an identifier that means that there's a scale within that particular idea that you might fall in or fall within. Does that make sense?

Lola: Yeah, definitely.

Gem: Yeah. And the other thing was about finding people, when you come across a label or a way to identify, and it really resonates with you… it's so powerful, isn't it, to realize that you're not alone anymore, and that there are other people that feel like that. Putting words to things can be really validating, I think.

Lola: Yeah, definitely. And especially kind of when you feel like you're so different from how everyone else is experiencing something…

And it's not to say that like their experience is invalid or that mine is more valid or anything like that. I think people at their core, even people who are like me, I'm very introverted, I'm not a big social person, but I don't think people—you know, I think we're social, we’re encouraged to be social. That's how we've survived for ages and ages, forming communities and being with one another. And so, I think in that aspect, it's hard to feel alone, and you don't want to feel alone.

And so, if a label can help you feel like, “Okay, I'm not the only one who feels this way,” then that's really, really important.

Gem: Yeah, I'm just thinking you mentioned some of the other parts of your identity. And I'm wondering what queer looks like to you. So within the queer label—and it can mean all kinds of different things for different people—how would you identify with being queer?

Lola: So, I think that queerness for me is more than just about sexuality or about gender. For me, I want that label in particular because it has a political meaning. And I think that that's really, really important.

My mom's a lesbian. And so, I grew up within the community and saw it from a different perspective. And I didn't actually come out until I was in—and coming out was kind of a rough kind of thing of what I did. But I didn't realize and kind of accept myself as not being straight, or at least not being typical in that regard, until my mid-twenties. And my mom said very biphobic things growing up. And I think that came from a place of frustration for people that she thought that could choose to be oppressed or not and she didn't understand.

But I think that, for me, queerness is about realizing that society has decided to privilege others and punish others and to choose not to assimilate into that. I do a talk occasionally about the history of the Stonewall Uprising and the history of that resistance within the US. And there is a long history of people who want to assimilate, people who want to be “normal,” people who want to be accepted by the mainstream and people who don't. And that's always been a huge tension in the community between people who just want to be “accepted.”

We're usually already accepted in a lot of other ways—because they're white, because they're middle class, because they fit in a lot of other boxes. And being gay is just the little thing that's hanging out that they want to hammer down, so that they can fit in. And for some people, fitting in is just not an option.

And I feel like for me, even if I were fully accepted being queer, and from a gender presentation or whatever is not a factor in what I find attractive in someone, or it doesn't matter to me, even if I were fully accepted in that, there's still lots of other ways that I'm not accepted. And there are also still a lot of other people who aren't accepted.

And for me, queerness is about “I don't want to assimilate.” And that's a big part of the identity.

I think there are a lot of gay people who aren't queer. And I think that I'm willing to expand the definition of queerness to consider things outside of sexuality and gender.

The thing that I am wary about is when people start trying to take it as a means to gain power. Particularly within the polyamory community and within the kink community, there are very white cisgender, heterosexual men who want to add and tack the letter on to LGBTQ as a way to get out of the things that they say and the things that they do that are oppressive. And that isn't okay.

So, when I started getting more into fat liberation and fat activism—and I'm kind of more on the small fat spectrum in that regard—when I started getting more into that, the idea of calling someone “straight sized,” I was like, “Oh, actually, that totally makes sense to me because being queer is about being on the margins. And fat bodies are on the margins.” That makes a lot of sense to me. And I'm fine with that.

But certain things, their acceptability, I think it's debatable. But if it comes down to someone taking that label and using it as a get-out-of-jail free card for the other stuff that they do, I can't get on board with that.

Gem: Yeah, that's super interesting because I know Virgie Tovar, for example, identifies or has talked about identifying as queer as being a fat person, that fatness is a queer identity. But yeah, that's so interesting. Just because I guess of my exposure to different communities, I've not come across many straight white men who would identify as queer or would want to use that identity. What was that like, seeing people trying to claim that?

Lola: It’s really frustrating. And to be fair, it's not just men. It is sometimes women who do identify as heterosexual. It's just these people arguing that polyamory or kink should be added to the LGBTQ letter.

I don't think that they push to identify as queer specifically because they don't understand that queer is a political identity. And they would probably be more in the camp of queer as a slur. But they do want to be part of it.

And they make a big deal of marching in the Pride Parade as if they wouldn't be allowed as a straight person to march in the Pride Parade. They make a big, big deal out of being part of that community. And then, when you call them on transphobia, when you call them on any of the things that they do, they're like, “Well, I'm marginalized because I'm polyamorous” or “I'm marginalized because I'm kinky.” And it's not really the same. It’s frustrating.

Gem: So, it makes me think of what we were talking about before we were recording, before we started recording, the idea that just because you are polyamorous, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are a member of an oppressed community. Whereas it sounds as though people who are taking part in their Pride marches and kind of really pushing the point potentially do feel like they're part of a marginalized community.

Lola: I think that there's a lot of variation. I mean, I'm not going to pretend like people welcome and accept the idea of polyamory easily. However, I think that… how do I say this? I think that we have to look at history. And part of what makes a marginalized identity is looking at the history of the way people have been treated and how they've been targeted and how systems have been built to disenfranchise them.

If you look at history, men have typically always been able to sleep with and have relationships with mostly whoever they wanted to without a lot of punishment—especially if they're wealthy, especially if they are in positions of power. Mistresses have been common. There are a lot of places where—I mean, I'm not saying polygamy is the same as polyamory. But there are a lot of places where it is perfectly acceptable for men to have multiple partners. That hasn't been a thing that they have been unable to do.

And if you look at the way that society has always kind of tried to control certain people, to me, I kind of compare it to being non-binary. I'm not trying to make it into an oppression Olympics or who's the most oppressed. I think that I face a lot of different things than people do. And I think that there's a very good argument for non-binary people being discriminated against when you talk about colonialism and you talk about how white Europeans coming and invading lands, basically defining non-binary people out of existence, wiping out anyone who—

I mean, you know, colonial-wise, there has been an erasure of those identities, of violence against those identities. But that is also a system that privileges me as a white person. So I can't sit here and say that me being a white non-binary person is the same in terms of oppression as a non-binary person of color or two-spirit person or anyone else. It's very complicated.

And I think that when it comes to having multiple partners, the people who the hammer is going to fall on are generally not the people who claim to be marginalized by it. So many people in communities—because I also give advice in a lot of Reddit communities and things like that—they're very worried that society is going to outcast them, that their children are going to be taken away.

They ask questions about CPS or child protective services or how does it work with children in schools when so many families that I grew up around had other adults living in the home because we didn't have the money for these nuclear two-parent families. So, we would have aunts and uncles and grandparents and other stuff picking us up.

Schools don't care as long as you give them a list of people to pick up, or if you have divorced families, you have multiple step parents. That’s not an obstacle if you’ve had those types of families.

And my experience at least with the CPS is that I've had family members who have really mistreated their children. But because there's no marks on them, the CPS hasn't done anything. Whereas in some places in America, the child protective services are purposely taking indigenous children from their homes and putting them into white homes because they make money off of it.

So, you're worried that the CPS is going to come in and take your children, and I just feel like who's the CPS going to actually target, who are the state system is going to actually target. If somebody is going to get in trouble for bigamy laws or any of those kind of laws that are sort of “yes, there are laws, but are they really enforced?”, who is the hammer going to fall on?

I feel like definitely there will be people who will be punished for being polyamorous. But the more privilege you have in general, I feel like the less likely it is that you're going to suffer the consequences.

And I feel like the hatred or any kind of stuff against polyamory tends to be less about having multiple romantic partners and tends to be more about slut-shaming and more about misogyny than it is about a purposeful category of polyamory being created by an oppressor, and then therefore being enacted in a state way. I'm not wording that very well. It’s not an institutional thing that is happening.

You know, people haven't outlawed multiple marriages because they hate polyamorous people. I took a huge part in marriage equality rallies and everything when I was in the States. As a teenager, that was a big part of the activism that I did. And I had people shout “Get your hands-off marriage in my face!” I know you know what it's like for people to consider you vile. And people compared my mother to a child molester for who she loved.

Again, this isn’t about oppression Olympics. But this is about a system. Marginalization is about a system that is created to target you and priviledge other people.

And just like I said, I don't feel like—you know, marriage isn't legal between more than one person, but I don't feel that that's because people hate polyamorous people. I feel like that is about capitalism and about misogyny and about controlling women and less about hating polyamorous people if that makes sense.

Gem: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And you’re mentioning, going on to demos and stuff then, it sounds like your activism has taken lots of different forms and in different spheres. I just wondered if you'd be happy to talk about how that's evolved for you.

Lola: Yeah, so activism is… direct action type of activism is really hard for me now because, with my disorder, I don't produce cortisol, which is the stress hormone that your body makes when you're under physical stress and mental stress and things like that. It doesn't mean I don't get stressed. It means that if I were to be physically injured, then I need that medicine right away. And if I don't get it, I could very well die.

My condition is so rare that I don't feel confident that if I were at a situation where I was injured and I needed medical assistance, I don't really feel like I could trust the police to give that assistance if they arrested me, or allow an ambulance to come through if I needed it.

So, I am very wary to participate in that because I just don't feel like I'm that useful if I'm dead....