The words “you’re fired” spark a lot of emotion, but in some unfortunate circumstances, they’re necessary to say or hear. 

In today’s episode, co-hosts Richard Lindner and Jeff Mask talk about best practices when it comes to delivering termination news. Most leaders have faced—or will face—that moment of truth when they have to let someone go. There’s a right way and a wrong way to fire people, Richard and Jeff believe, and they want to give you the script.

Listen in for some super practical advice on firing someone the right way and tips for preventing it in the first place.

They start off with the script right away, then work backward. Here’s what you say in 30 seconds or less. If you handle things right from the very beginning, this is how easy it can be to fire someone. If you’ve led with clarity, if everybody knew what was required/expected, there shouldn’t be surprises. Having a script memorized is key so you don’t freeze up under pressure.

The script: “Hey, Jeff. Thanks for joining me. Listen, the decision has been made that this will be your last day with the company. I’m sure this is not what you wanted to hear, but I’m also sure it’s not a total surprise. While I know this isn’t how you wanted it to end, I’m sure there is some relief as well. I have this HR person with me. They’re going to walk you through what’s next with benefits and any remaining pay and returning equipment and next steps. I’m sorry it turned out this way. It’s not what any of us hoped for. I wish you luck and let me know if there’s anything I can do for you.”

It may seem short, even cold, but when you hear the process leading up to it, you’ll see why this is all that’s needed.

Once upon a time, Richard sent Jeff a text saying, “I’ve let people go in the past, and I want to do it better.” He had a situation that raised his spidey-sense, and he wanted to address it before it got bad. He says he had a rare moment of intuition, of realization before reaction. He and Jeff chatted on the phone and it went great.

He says that was the day he chose to lead differently, to avoid surprises, to create crystal clarity from the beginning so people know where they stand at any given moment for any given goal in any given role. Jeff shared what he had done, and Richard tweaked it to fit his business. They co-created a collaborative version of how to walk people through a plan, the Performance Improvement Flowchart.

You’ve hired someone and things are going well, until something goes wrong, a triggering event. When you make the decision to fire someone, there has typically been a series of things that went wrong. Did you brush those under the rug, or did you address them as they came up? Something going wrong is an opportunity to have an alignment conversation. (You don’t need a flowchart for immediately-terminable offenses like assault or harassment.)

Let’s say something happened. Who’s responsible? Let’s say Jeff is responsible. Richard leads Jeff, so he has a conversation with him and leads with curiosity. “Hey, Jeff. Let’s grab some time to chat. I want to talk about this. Is this something you feel you’re responsible for?” The goal is to leave the conversation with clarity about responsibilities. Richard ends with: “Do you have any questions? Do you need anything?”

After the conversation, Richard sends Jeff a simple follow-up email so they have a document to refer to. The motive of the email is not bureaucracy...

OTHER SHOWS YOU MIGHT ENJOY:

• Business Lunch with Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss
• Perpetual Traffic with Ralph Burns and Kasim Aslam
• DigitalMarketer Podcast with Mark de Grasse and Mandy McEwen

You want to hire people you know, love, and trust, and quite often those are friends and family members, but how do you avoid favoritism and nepotism?

On today’s episode, host Jeff Mask is joined by his brother, Clate Mask, CEO and co-founder of Keap (formerly known as Infusionsoft), a sales and marketing automation platform. Clate loves entrepreneurs and has great respect for the grit and tenacity and perseverance they show as they build their businesses. He built a company that helps entrepreneurs overcome the challenges and frustrations that go with the territory. Automation helped him and his business, and now he shares it with others.

Clate and Jeff have a lot of experience working together in multiple companies over the years. They’ve seen what works really well and what can be really painful, creating family strife.

So how do you work with family and friends? How do you lead through nepotism and favoritism? How do you avoid those horror stories we all hear about when family members work together and end up ruining their relationships outside of the office?

Listen in for some encouraging stories and practical tips—all born from years of experience, both good and bad.

What NOT to Do When Working with Family

Years ago, during the dotcom era, Clate was Jeff’s boss in a company he didn’t own. It was a lot of fun, and they learned a lot. Jeff is six years younger than Clate and idolized him. They had a good relationship, but as Jeff started tasting success, he got prideful, and Clate would try to keep him in his place. Clate had the mental game and knew how to push Jeff’s buttons. Both of their weaknesses came out.

Their company had a ping pong table where they’d play lunch tournaments. Clate won 95% of the time, because of his skill and mental edge. They always played best of three. One day, they had each won one game, and Jeff was one point away from winning game three. He smashed it and won. An employee had walked behind Clate at just that moment, and Clate slammed the paddle down and said, “If you want to win that way, sure.” 

They replayed the point. Clate won and gloated, and 21 years of little brother exploded inside Jeff. He lost it, started swearing, and they were yelling at each other, totally embarrassing themselves. They went back to work and kept fighting over Instant Messenger. 

Learning From Their Failures

They eventually got over it and healed. Fast forward. Clate started a new company with two of his brothers-in-law. Jeff could have joined but didn’t want to mess up their relationship. Jeff went out on his own and found success. After two kids and a cancer diagnosis, he wanted to find purpose and vision in business. At the same time, Clate was looking for a Jeff Mask in his company and thought, shoot, we just need Jeff Mask.

Jeff was hesitant at first, because he really didn’t want to risk ruining a family relationship he treasured. But he and Clate sat down for a ground rule-setting conversation at the very beginning. They knew they had to be intentional, and they were. They set ground rules for what they would be and not be. They decided together that they would avoid these three things at all costs: 

1. greed
2. pride
3. laziness

And they would make sure they demonstrated: 

1. selflessness
2. humility
3. grit 

There were certain standards Jeff had to meet, results he had to get, and if he didn’t measure up, they agreed Clate would fire...

Richard and Jeff want to hear from YOU. Was something in today’s episode a big aha moment for you? Anything you disagreed with? What did you learn that you’ve applied to your leadership? Email them here with your thoughts/questions: [email protected] 

OTHER SHOWS YOU MIGHT ENJOY:

• Business Lunch with Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss
• Perpetual Traffic with Ralph Burns and Kasim Aslam
• DigitalMarketer Podcast with Mark de Grasse and Mandy McEwen

What does it mean to lead well through the holidays with all its distractions and deadlines, and people’s different beliefs and cultural backgrounds?

On today’s episode, co-hosts Richard Lindner and Jeff Mask talk about the holiday season and how it can be exhausting and loaded with dangers and pitfalls. But it can also be rewarding, even life-changing, with a few key mindset shifts. 

Listen in for some heartfelt tips on turning the holiday season into an incredible opportunity for you and the people you lead. 

Who Gets Your Time and Energy This Holiday Season?

In the past, Richard has taken on more responsibility as a leader during the holidays so he could give his team the gift of recharging and spending time with their loved ones. But his “selfless” act often turned into him feeling resentful. On the flip side, he’s thought, “I’m important, and I deserve this time off, so everyone else can take care of everything.” Neither one of these extremes is healthy.

So, how do we make sure the key initiatives are still accomplished, but the workload isn’t given to one side or the other? Not 100% or 0% delegation, but working together to complete the truly important tasks while also giving the gift of recharge to ourselves and our team? How do we focus on what’s important and avoid resentment?

Jeff often talks about work/life integration and making sure you know where you’re going to spend your time, making sure your loved ones know you prioritize them. But how do we do this and get the work done? Most leaders have individual roles, management roles, and a family life. That’s a lot of hats.

The next level after work/life integration is work/life harmony. When you create a chord in music, everyone knows the role they’re playing and we’re all on the same page. This harmony requires proactive communication. What are the critical tasks that still need to happen and who is owning them? What are our contingency plans? 

At the root of a lot of our stress is workaholism and fear of failing. That fear drives us. Get a plan in place to make the holidays awesome and full of love and life instead of fearful and exhausting and being a martyr.

Ask Questions and Get Curious

Richard says he used to think leaders had to have all the answers, but he’s learned that asking questions and being curious as a leader is invaluable. He looks at the holidays as an opportunity to be curious and asks questions individually and to his team. 

• What holiday traditions or rituals are important to you?
• Which days are big for you that you’ll need time off for? 
• What do you do over the holidays and with whom? 

Seek to understand and build a calendar for when people are engaged outside of work. The team as a whole can start to understand each other better. It gives people a more diverse understanding of what this season can mean. 

It’s very valuable and powerful when people step in to help others, but be mindful of people who always volunteer to do extra work. Look for opportunities to avoid resentment. Where does it build? Leaders need to ask, because people probably won’t volunteer those details.

Don’t Forget About Your Indirect Employees

The family and loved ones of your actual employees are what Jeff and Richard call indirect employees. If resentment builds up with a life partner or a child toward the company, you’re putting the employee in a difficult place. 

Seek to understand what’s important to them and their family. You want someone at home who loves the company and the manager. If the employee even thinks about exploring other...

It can be hard to know how to navigate a really tough environment as a leader. This is how one woman did it really well.

On today’s episode, host Jeff Mask sits down with Karen Pierce, CEO of KMP Consultants, to talk about best practices in leadership and how to deal with tough, even toxic, work environments. Karen and Jeff met at an event where Karen told him, “we speak a very similar language.” It’s true. They do. The bottom line? They both believe deeply that leadership is all about putting people first. It’s not as much about skills and getting things done. It’s about developing people, inspiring them, motivating them. 

Karen heard someone say once: “You can’t be a leader if nobody’s following you. And if nobody’s following you, you’re just out on a nice walk.” 

Listen in for some great examples of leading well when things aren’t going so great. 

What Karen Does Now and How She Got Here

Karen helps leaders in organizations navigate change by developing an environment where people can thrive and have fun, feel valued, like they have a place, like they’re a part of the organization, not just someone who gets assigned a task.

Work doesn’t have to be a four-letter word, she says. It should be rewarding and affirming. We spend at least a third of our waking hours there. Rather than endure it to the weekend, we should feel like we’re contributing to something better than ourselves. As we look at this Great Resignation, employees are voting with their feet. If we don’t create an environment where they can thrive, they’re heading somewhere else. 

Karen’s journey started when she was a young female aerospace engineer who faced a significant amount of resistance in spite of her ability. Women just weren’t respected in the field, in general, and being good at what she did turned out to be more negative than positive. She could work really hard and do a great job and still not be part of the team. 

People felt threatened by her. Her work was sabotaged. When she got promotions, people talked about who she slept with to get there. Her life was even threatened. She came to a decision point. Pursue this or quit and find something else. “I have a purpose here,” she decided. “I can try to make a difference.” Maybe she could change people’s minds and make things better for the women who came after her. 

Dealing with Toxic Work Environments

Over the course of her career, Karen has handled toxic work environments with grace. At one point, Karen’s boss sent a problem employee to her. This employee was frustrated with his job, was feeling very threatened, and had almost hit his manager. He was dealing with mental health issues that people didn’t know about at the time, putting Karen in a difficult situation. He threatened her life at one point, but no one believed her. It wasn’t until they were in court (he sued her) and had an outburst, that her lawyer realized her life was in danger. 

Leading through mental health challenges is so tough, and is part of a leader’s reality more now than it’s ever been. Passing employees from one leader to the next isn’t the best idea. Help them be extraordinary first in their current role, before passing them on. If it’s happened more than twice, don’t be seduced as a leader, thinking you can be a hero. There’s a pattern there. 

Not being believed is a frustrating, even terrifying, thing. It took a lot of guts for Karen to raise red flags, because she was young and female. She didn’t want to be a failure. She asked good questions and kept good records, and eventually the truth came to light. 

Fast forward in her career to when she got a leadership position that several people she was leading wanted. They were in an open office environment with about 40 people.

Rituals and routines, done with intention, can help us prepare ourselves to show up emotionally and mentally and lead from a place of power.

The theme of routines and rituals is popping right now. People around the globe are finding that the routines that once worked so well are no longer serving them. Life has changed, and our routines need to change too, if we want to stay on top of our game. 

In today’s episode, co-hosts Richard Lindner and Jeff Mask kick things off by telling a true (and painfully embarrassing) story about how this is actually their second time recording the episode. Why? Because the first attempt was a miserable failure. Why was that? Because, ironically, they went into it without putting in the work of mentally preparing with a routine. It was an hour of their lives that they will never get back, but what an amazing validation of today’s topic.

Listen in for some great tips on implementing routines and rituals into your day so you can be your best for the people you lead. 

What Do You Need in a Ritual or Routine?

As leaders, we need to be present physically, mentally, and emotionally for our team. How do we get there? One way is by implementing rituals and routines that prepare us to perform and give our best. Some questions to ask yourself:

• What roles do I play where I need to be at the top of my game?
• Am I at the top of my game right now? If not, why not?
• How can I get there and what will it look like?

How do we upgrade, level up our routines and rituals to today’s standards? Things are evolving. Our routines/rituals need to evolve with them. We have to be willing and humble and self-aware to know when and how to update them.

Ask yourself: what are my most critical roles in life? What does performing at the highest level look like? What would need to be true in my thoughts, words, and actions to make sure I can perform at the level I need to so the people I lead can create and work and change? 

Are Routines and Rituals Inherently Selfish?

One way of looking at a routine is: how do you take the time to be intentionally selfish so you can ultimately be selfless? You actually do need to be selfish in your routines so they fill you up, put you in the best possible place, so you’re not responding to yourself and your needs when you’re being called to lead someone else.

Jeff brings it back to the oxygen mask analogy once again. When we take care of ourselves by making sure we’re in a high-oxygen environment, what’s the motive? To be able to serve other people. Where this gets misconstrued is where we hear a lot of talk about me time and pampering. That’s okay but to what end? 

When we intentionally invest in ourselves in order to bless the lives of others, that selfishness enables us to be sustainably selfless. When our tank is full and our foundation is solid, we bless people, and receive more oxygen, and it’s this awesome cycle.

You might need me time for a season for healing and regrouping, but then it’s time to take time for yourself in order to bless others.

Rituals and Routines at Work

Richard shares that early on in his executive leadership, he didn’t prepare for meetings in a powerful, meaningful way. One of his biggest breakthroughs was to put in a 15-minute buffer between meetings. He would take that time to review his numbers and ask: what story are they telling, what context needs to be added to tell the actual story, what does he need from the room, and what can he get from the room? 

Showing up like that was more powerful. He started having more of an impact on...

When you invest in appropriate relationships with the people you lead and make them feel valuable, you become all the more effective as a leader. 

In today’s episode, host Jeff Mask sits down with Kimberly Holmes, CEO of Marriage Helper to talk about some universal principles that work across all relationships, whether personal or professional. Kimberly is passionate about championing marriages and creating strong families. She and her team want to take over the world with hope for great relationships. 

Listen in as she shares how you can implement these powerful relationship principles into your leadership. 

How Kimberly Became CEO of a Successful Company

Kimberly’s story starts back in the mid-1980s. The founder of Marriage Helper was a very successful speaker whose schedule was booked five years out. He was married with two daughters when he fell in love with another woman, and left his family to be with her. He was divorced for three years, became a drug addict and an alcoholic, lost his friends, was living out of his car, and almost died. He told God he was going to turn his life around, called his ex-wife, and asked her to take him back, which she did, against the advice of her loved ones.

They remarried, even though they weren’t in love, and they had a third child in celebration of their remarriage. That child was Kimberly. She says, “I literally would not be on this earth if it weren’t for two people committed to trying to make it work, to put it back together.”

She entered the family business part-time and saw the amazing change that was happening in the 3-day workshops her parents hosted. The service worked, but they had no marketing whatsoever. Her dad was considering shutting it down, because it wasn’t profitable. She knew they had to get the message in front of people, because it was needed. They were an organization driven by mission and believed the stakes were high.

Kimberly became CEO with a staff of four. They started an email list, and experienced 100% growth for two consecutive years. There was really nowhere to go but up. In 6 years she had 5x’ed the company. She learned marketing, got clear on her why, and worked hard to scale. And now they have a staff of 75. 

How to Invest In Relationships

You have to invest in people if you’re going to take your business from 4 people to 75. Kimberly has invested in relationships on her team, and the team helps people invest in their marriage relationships. What are some things she has learned about relationships over the years that can apply to us as leaders?

Kimberly says people want to leave a relationship for one of three reasons:

1. They don’t feel liked.
2. They don’t feel loved.
3. They don’t feel respected. 

At the core, if someone feels liked, loved, and respected, they’ll feel more attachment to the relationship they’re in. So, ask yourself: what am I doing that is showing the other person that I like, love, and respect them? People are attracted to those who evoke emotions that they enjoy feeling. Am I helping people feel edified, uplifted, supported, liked?

If leaders can do this in an appropriate way in their relationships at work, it makes all the difference. It changes us and the people we’re leading. People need to feel valued, like they’re not just a number. You want them to like the way it feels to be a part of your team and a part of your company.

The Four Stages of a Relationship

There are four stages to any relationship, and understanding each one of them can help you make your relationships stronger, whether at home...

Corrective conversations are never fun, but as leaders, it’s our responsibility to help people become better versions of themselves. 

Today’s episode with co-hosts Richard Lindner and Jeff Mask is all about having those difficult, but necessary, corrective conversations. How do you give correction? When do you give it? How do you do it well? It can be an easy thing to mess up, and Jeff and Richard want to help people avoid that pain. 

Listen in as they talk about why correction matters and how to do it in a way that truly benefits everyone.

WHY Have Corrective Conversations?

Why is it so important for leaders to give timely correction when something gets off track? The biggest reason is this: we need to lead people for who they can become, not for who they are today. We want the people we lead to become their best selves, and a lot of everyday actions prohibit them (and us) from doing that.

Jeff says that, as leaders, we have the ability to change the trajectory of ourselves and those we lead. When we don’t give that feedback, we’re not helping people see the implications of their behavior so they can be better. It’s an obligation, an opportunity, a blessing, to help people elevate their thinking and behavior. When we don’t, we’re just thinking about ourselves.

Richard says that the hardest pivot for him was changing the way he thought about correction. It doesn’t have to mean confrontation. Correction isn’t necessarily coming from a place of judgment. It doesn’t mean the person is bad. There’s just an action that needs changing. It’s pain avoidance when we don’t have these corrective conversations. We like to lie to ourselves and think we’re protecting the other person from pain, but we’re protecting ourselves. 

WHEN to Have Corrective Conversations

Jeff once had a team member whose behavior was not in line with their core values. It wasn’t off-the-charts horrible, but he knew he needed to talk to this person and kept putting it off. His delay resulted in a chain of events that occurred in a short period of time that was very destructive to the brand of their company and the overall vibe of their team. It got out of hand quickly because Jeff didn’t have the courage to address it at that moment. 

If something strikes you as off on your core values, that’s your first and clearest red flag. Core values can be a guiding light for how to behave. Maybe you have that spidey sense that something is odd or a little uncomfortable—or you notice a reaction or body language from the person that person is talking to. In a virtual world, this can be more difficult. Don’t avoid it and let it grow into a larger problem down the road. 

Richard always looks at attitude, effort, and effectiveness. Those are the categories he puts things in when evaluating each team member. If something is off in any of these categories, then a conversation is needed. Attitude and effort are more of a corrective conversation. Effectiveness is more of an exploratory conversation. 

Jeff says that Richard married data and intuition. Data can be taught; intuition can’t be. Going down the intuitive path (spidey sense) isn’t helpful if there’s only an intangible aspect. You need intuition + data. 

Definitely don’t wait until the time is right, because it never will be. Don’t wait until your next one on one. The more time that goes by without correction, the more it communicates that the behavior is acceptable. This is how a good work culture deteriorates. 

Have the conversation that same day—with one caveat. If there’s a blow-up and someone loses their cool, that needs to be dealt with, but there needs to be a cooling off period. The deeper question is: how do we know if we are calm enough as a leader to offer the correction? If my motive to