Real Talk With Susan & Kristina

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Welcome to this week's episode of Real Talk! In this installment, hosts Susan and Kristina delve into the high-stakes world of college admissions alongside guest Davida Amkraut. As the trio navigates the aftermath of a particularly competitive admissions season, they offer invaluable insights, tips, and tricks to help listeners make informed decisions. With the college acceptance landscape resembling a bloodbath this year, many students have found themselves admitted to schools that weren't necessarily their first choice. Parents, this episode is essential listening as the team breaks down what you need to know before sending your child off to college. And for upcoming seniors, they provide crucial advice on staying ahead of the curve and crafting a strategic plan for the college application process. Tune in for a candid discussion packed with insider knowledge and practical guidance!

 

About Davida Amkraut:

Davida is an Independent College Consultant who serves as the saving grace for students and families in crisis who are navigating the complex college application process. Whether a student finds themselves in trouble and is applying to college for the first time, or is transitioning from one university to another due to a Title IX or other university-related misconduct claim, Davida helps young adults shape their stories so that they gain acceptance into college.

  TRANSCRIPT:

Susan Stone:

Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.

 

Susan Stone:

Last week was accepted students weekend for Tori. Can you believe it? 

 

Kristina Supler:

what a big, big like- How do you feel now that you know where she's going?

 

Susan Stone:

Oh my gosh. First of all, for the listeners out there. My youngest just accepted college. She will be going to Ringling College in Sarasota, Florida, which is an art school.

 

Kristina Supler:

Fabulous. 

 

Susan Stone:

To have it done for the final time was crazy. And our guest today, I also know has three kids, but I think all of them are out of college. Welcome back to Davida Amkraut . 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Thank you. Thank you. I actually have one still in college. He's just finishing his sophomore year, so. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, we're glad you're able to join us again.Our listeners probably remember you from some of your prior recordings with us and welcome back. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

It's good to see you guys. Yeah. 

 

Susan Stone:

Where is your youngest? Northeastern 

 

Davida Amkraut:

am I that's my middle. He's graduating in May from Northeastern. He's graduating in two weeks, and my youngest is at George Washington University. 

 

Susan Stone:

And how was his experience there? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Loves loves loves loves it.He's in the pre physical therapy program there. So he's having 

wow that's back. That's back to your that's your basic simpler. Yeah. Therapy. Yeah.

 

Susan Stone:

may be great for everyone out here. Christina's family's in 

 

Kristina Supler:

PT Bizz 

 

Susan Stone:

So, DeVita, you've got a lot of career changes lately. Why don't you catch our listeners up with what you're doing? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Yeah, so I'm still doing.I still am running my own private practice where I assist. This past year, I had about 55 kids from all across the country, actually, who I worked with, on college admissions. But I also joined a high school team, in the Bronx, where I'm working at a Jewish high school in the Bronx, and I am on their college counseling team.

 

So it's really fascinating for me to see both sides of the table. Right. So I'm working with kids from my computer, but then I'm also working with kids in person, and I've had a lot of access to admission officers, which has been amazing. I've been on advocacy calls for my students. For the listeners who don't know what that means is, prior to decisions being released, if schools allow it, we we have a call with the admission officer for our our rep for our region, and we're sort of able to pitch our case, you know, and, you know, tell them a little bit, 

 

Kristina Supler:

So  you can literally lobby for a particular student to have a spot at assembly

Davida Amkraut:

Only at certain schools. A lot of schools have done away with these advocacy calls, calls because it prevents and prevents inequity, because not every counselor has the time to make 400 phone calls for their students. But because we're at a smaller school, our caseload is a little bit smaller. So we do have the ears and eyes of some counselors who are still very happy to talk to us.

 

So, for example, Cooper Union, which is an engineering and architecture school in Manhattan. I don't know if you 

 

Susan Stone:

I looked at Cooper Union with Tory. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Yeah. So I actually was able to talk to Cooper about my student, who they were considering for a regular decision, and give them an update about everything that he's been doing since he last applied in person. And then they were able to ask me questions, and it was like a 15 minute phone call. but it's a fascinating thing, right? To be able to have that access. Some schools will just call and give you the numbers of who is going to get in and who's not going to get in by names, actually. But you can't really advocate at that point because it's already done deal 

 

Susan Stone:

done deal. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

But they do give the courtesy to the admission, you know, the college counselors to let them know what our decisions are going to be so that we can be there for the students on the receiving end. 

 

Susan Stone:

Could you have done that for your private clients?

 

Davida Amkraut:

No no no no no. They will never speak to independent office counselors at all. No. 

 

Susan Stone:

So what can the independent college counselor do that's different from the in-house school college counselor? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

So I always say the in-house school college counselor is not only well, it depends on if it's a college counselor or if it's a high school counselor. So you'll see that that verbiage has changed, because if it's a high school counselor, that counselor and I know in Beachwood in Shaker, they are high school counselors as well as college counselors.So not only are they dealing with a college process, they're also dealing with a social, emotional piece for every single student in that high school. So they have a very, very big, big caseload. You know, if they're dealing with social, emotional and college, college sort of doesn't always take, you know, the front seat to that. So an independent counselor can help identify schools.

 

They can help keep the kids on deadlines. They can do read throughs of essays. They could help position them a little bit better and look at their activities and say, you know, you're applying to an engineering program. You have nothing engineering on your application. We need to get you involved with something. A counselor at a large public school probably doesn't have the bandwidth to do that, right.

 

They're just looking at doing a cursory review. They're going on scatter grams, which is the, you know, the Naviance score to see where they have sent other kids in their school and making a guess about where the kids should apply without really having that in-depth consultation. If that makes sense 

 

Susan Stone:

When you have a kid, let's say you have five kids at your high school all looking at George Washington. Can you advocate for all five or do you have to? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

You probably wouldn't. We probably wouldn't advocate for all five. We would choose the one that we think would probably be the most successful, or the one that they would really want. looking at the profile and looking at and also knowing that that might not be that student's first choice.Right. We have that Intel. So we would never advocate for a school if it's an early action or if it's a regular decision for a school that we know that the kid would never go to. Does that make sense? We know what 

 

Susan Stone:

they're right, kid. But let's say you have three kids. I'm going to say a popular school this year.They want Michigan and they're dying to get into Michigan. Do you pick the best horse? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Well, Michigan doesn't let advocacy calls. Are you surprised by that? They, they have a 

 

Kristina Supler:

no, because they don't need to. I mean, that they get the best of best. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

They had 75,000 applications this year for a class that's housed. That was their numbers for this year.That was 70,000 early action. Right. So who knows how many additional people who had in their regular season. Right. So a lot of kids will not apply during that early action because they want to use that time to get their grades up, for instance. Right? So then they'll hold back their application until the January 1st to really show their, you know, the upward trajectory.

So that's only 70,000 early action applications for our class of 7,000. Right. 

Kristina Supler:

So what are your takeaways from this past, you know, season? I mean what did you see, what trends and what lessons, you know, were learned for students who are, you know, on the brink for next year? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Yeah. Well, I would say actually, funny you should ask that.But just yesterday we had two bombshells just dropped on our laps on April 11th that two of the big schools are now going to require testing. Harvard and Cal Tech announced April 11th that they're gonna require testing, which is very, very it's it's so hurtful to so many counselors who are listening that to 

 

Kristina Supler:

Other schools announced that to  in the Ivys

 

Davida Amkraut:

They did it before the march SATs 

 

Kristina Supler:

earlier. So that's the issue was the timing. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

The timing is terrible because after reading why

 

Susan Stone:

that's a bomb debate is are they punishing the kids who didn't submit? There's 

 

Davida Amkraut:

no I think I think we I don't think that they're punishing. I mean, Harvard, 80, 86% of their kids submitted test scores, so they were never fully test optional, right? That's that's for sure. But it is for kids who are, you know, who have planned their testing, who have talked to counselors, who have sort of said, okay, I want to focus on X, Y, and Z because I'm just not a great tester. That really puts them now in a bind to have to test. And the next S.A.T., I think, is the end of May.

So they don't have as many shots now to take that S.A.T. if they were just counting on that early decision, if that makes sense.

 

 Susan Stone:

No. I'm confused. So you're saying for the kids who got who put in their application for Harvard, but didn't test, they have to scramble and get a test? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

No, no, no, this is for the next cycle.

 

This is next year. Next year. Now this cycle is already done. But it's for kids. I mean, if you think about April and these kids are already planning, you know, and they're working and they have a schedule and they're planning on when they're exactly doing everything. And now the school says, okay, you have to do testing. Now they have to scramble and go back.

 

If they weren't planning on testing to go back and start studying, it's just not ethical, I mean, listen, I think Caltech and Harvard are very, very high ranking schools, and I'm assuming most of their kids knew already that they had to have testing that will position them. But there are some schools out there who still have not announced what their plans are for this coming cycle.

 

Susan Stone:

So wouldn't you counsel them, everybody take a test. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

We do, we do, we do. I counsel everybody to take a test because you don't want to have would have, could have. But it's more like the second or third test, you know, should that kid ten take a take it a third time? Should they take it a fourth time? Should they get additional tutoring. Right? And also you have the issue of the digital S.A.T. versus the pen to paper. Right. So not every school has announced if you can super score your pen to paper, score with your digital score. Right. 

 

Kristina Supler:

So what does that mean? Super score 

 

Davida Amkraut:

to take different set test scores from different different tests that you've taken. 

 

Susan Stone:

And so you use the best math of the scores you’ve taken and you combine one. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Yeah. Or you know a lot of schools have not even really come out and said if they're going to allow super scoring from the pen to paper tasked with the digital. So there's this whole unknown going on here. So a kid who, who took the SATs, who got like an 800 on English but got a 650 on math right now, if she wants to apply to Harvard, she has to go back and take the test.That 800 on the English might not ever be seen, because if they don't super score. I don't know if that made sense. 

 

Susan Stone:

Now that's great.

 

Kristina Supler:

 Why, if most Harvard applicants were submitting the test score anyway, why why did Harvard announce this policy much less so late in the game? Like what was the reasoning behind it? If anyone knows?

 

Davida Amkraut:

Well, there are some conspiracy theories out there that the College Board is smearing these schools to go back to, 

 

Kristina Supler:

Ahh okay. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Right. That's not founded by anything, right? Like I'm just putting that out there, like, you know, we're wondering all of a sudden, you know, that digital S.A.T. has come out, right? And they're trying to drum up business, right?

 

They're there as much as they say they are a nonprofit. Right? And they have that .org or whatever they have next to their name. It's a business. And if people are not taking tests, they're going to lose their business. Right. And I think that they want to drum up business. From what I understand, in some schools, it's not the admission officers at the schools, at the colleges that decide whether or not testing should be reinstated its actually a faculty decision.

 

So maybe, perhaps the faculty is seeing not as many competitive candidates as or candidates now who are in their classrooms, who are not as competitive as their candidate, as their students from like 4 or 5 years ago. Right? So if the faculty is seeing that, then they're going to probably say, you know, we need higher caliber students like this is not, etc. 

 

Susan Stone:

Davida, can you circle back to what Christina asked you because she you really did.I know you partially answered it, but she asked a great question because every year now that I've done this three times, everyone says this was the hardest year. This was the hardest year to get kids. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Bloodbath. 

 

Susan Stone:

It's a bloodbath like that every year. I hear this from parents tell us 24, was it really a bloodbath or were kids getting in just like they were every other year?

 

Davida Amkraut:

I mean, the students that are at the school that I'm working at and my clients listen, we all have our kids all have a place to call home, right? I say that very confidently, where our school is a little bit more selective, that we're a little bit shocking. Some of them were like a Michigan not so shocking.They've been on the same trajectory for many years. I tell my students I was like, you can apply to Michigan, but don't count on it, right? Just don't count on it because there's something going on there with their numbers and how they spit things out, but don't count on it. Right. And there were superstars waitlisted. And that's the other thing that Michigan does that's not so kind is that they don't cut their kids loose.

 

Right? They don't cut these applicants loose. They waitlist them and they let them live in what we call purgatory. You know? And then kids get in in July and August, right. And then they lose their day. They have to make this big choice. They have to lose their deposit. Their other school scramble for a roommate, you know, is it really worth it?And I tell my students, cut bait like you are done with Michigan if you don't get in. If you're not the kind of kid that can pivot in a heartbeat, then it's not going to be a great place for you. You know? Why do that? 

 

Kristina Supler:

With respect to waitlists, what do you tell families in terms of in reality, how likely is a student to get admitted off of a waitlist?

 

Davida Amkraut:

I tell them, pretend it didn't happen and I do. I say, you know, put a deposit, put a deposit, you know, and get excited for your other choice. Just get excited, embrace it. And if they get in, a lot of students decide not to take that, take that adamant off the waitlist. They decide not to because they've already been hyped up.They already found their roommate. They're already, you know, invested, which I think is a great thing. You know, because it's college. What you do when you get there, what you make of it when you get there. but circling back to Susan, your question about what do I advise my students to do? Right. And I think that's a conversation.We're still seeing a lot of kids getting in an early decision one, and early decision two. Right. financially, you know, if you're in a position to do that and you have, you know, that sort of relationship with a school and you're willing to do that, that's what we always say, you know, don't apply to certain schools. That's not like if you're not applying ed

Right. So I'm, I have the stats up here for BU right now. 

 

Susan Stone:

Kristinas alma mater . 

 

Kristina Supler:

My alma mater, 

 

Davida Amkraut:

they had 79,000 applicants this year. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Is that all? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

But they did increase. They did increase their first year class size to 3300, which is 155 more seats than last year. Right. So, despite the fact that they have this larger class size, they only now there are a rate.Their admit rate is just 10.7%. View. So BU When I first started this, I'd say like seven, eight years ago they were 25, 30%. Right. and now they're they're almost in single digits. 

 

Susan Stone:

Who's going to BU you know, what's the profile? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

I think at the profile is very similar to a student who might be applying to, a northeastern, a George Washington, because these are kids who want a city school.it's not incredibly rah rah ish. I mean, you have a hockey, but that's really basically, that's what you have. And they're kids who are very I think that there are more independent thinkers because they are living in like a city. NYU is also I put that in that cohort also. So, you know, that sort of thing.

the oh, you asked 

 

Susan Stone:

What are the up ad commers Davida. I know when my daughter went to northeastern, I didn't even know what northeastern was. And now it's the hot  school. so we already know northeastern is already up there with BU and George Washington. What do you see as the up and comer next wave hot school. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Good question. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

That's such a great question.I think that there are a lot of hidden gems, and I think that it's really hard to answer that question because it's like, I can say Fordham University, I think is going to be a hot school. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Really? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

yeah. Yeah, 

 

Kristina Supler:

I think, that used to be a safe school for students who, you know, wanted the Boston  college Georgetown experience, but y you but couldn't get in.Well, who wanted the Jesuit component? And then you go to Fordham. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Yeah. And I think Fordham, I don't mark my words, but I think that they have they have two campuses. So you have the opportunity to have a traditional campus experience, which is in the Bronx, which is a gated campus. And you can also choose to live in Lincoln Center in New York City and live in a city campus.And they have a fabulous business program. It's in New York City, so, I'm going to say, I think Fordham, in terms of that piece, is going to be, you know, a school to watch out for. in terms of other schools that are hot. And, I mean, it just runs the gamut. You know, the we hear the same names over and over and over again.I think that for Out-of-staters, Ohio State is looking really great for a lot of people. You're going to see a lot more kids applying to like an Ohio State and Indiana. because those are a little bit less selective than, Michigan or Wisconsin. Boulder also will be I'll see. They're they're getting they're doing great. You know, those schools are doing great because they are taking the kids who are not getting into the Michigan and Wisconsin into their into their class 

 

Kristina Supler:

is bolder, getting more selective.

 

Davida Amkraut:

I don't not yet. Not yet and not yet. It'll take some time. and there's also a very, very big school, so I don't think it'll be assault. It'll never hit the Michigan level. Then it'll probably hit, like, I would say, a Wisconsin or, or an Ohio State at some point, you know, because 

 

Susan Stone:

with 80,000 applications or even if it's 50,000 applications, 

 

Kristina Supler:

seriously, what's the difference?

 

Susan Stone:

I there's no difference. What trends do you see? Does the Essay matter . 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Well, so Duke just announced Duke University just announced that they're actually moving that down in their priorities because of AI. Right. So Duke has that has announced formally that they are no longer scoring their essays as, as highly as they were. I think what always will matter the most is the rigor of the child's,curriculum.

 

Right. That is the grant. Yeah. And that is of

 

Susan Stone:

The  transcript. You can’t game a transcript 

 

 Davida Amkraut:

Right. So I think that transcript is, is the going to be like, if you had a pizza pie, I'd say that's like 60% of the pizza pie. Really I do. Right. And it's not the transcript I took woodworking and got an A-plus or I took pottery and I got it.

You know, it is part and 

 

Kristina Supler:

Both important classes, by the way. 

 

Davida Amkraut:They are. But it is like we're even seeing now like AP, A, B and AP calc. Those are like, like 5 or 6 years ago. Those were the really, really hard AP math classes. Now schools are looking for AP multivariable right there, like for their engineering students. They are looking for AP multivariable.I don't even know what that is. Right. 

 

Kristina Supler:

I wouldn't stand a chance, but I, of course, would never. I have no business anywhere near an engineering thing.

 

Susan Stone:

I want to challenge you on this, okay? Both Christine and I, we're both lawyers and we're both stronger in humanities. So are we going to get punished by a highly selective school if we didn't have high IP transcripts in the science and the math and the stems?

 

Davida Amkraut:

No. Only if you're applying to a like a degree program as college, a college within years, they have engineering or math. Right now, if you're a humanities person, you're applying to a journalism program. They're not gonna care. So like if they want to see rigor, they're not gonna want to see the easiest math classes. But they'll understand that if you're taking, you know, APUSH. AP euro, AP lang, AP lit, and then you're just taking honors math. Totally fine. 

 

Susan Stone:

So how else can you stand out if it's not the essay anymore? Because I understand it's going to be with I impossible to distinguish essays. 

 

Kristina Supler:

I'm wondering about that. This issue of the essays, though, because of course, after the affirmative action ruling, there was a lot of discussion about how students can speak about various points in their personal lives that would be potentially relevant for consideration and mission in the essay.

But now it's interesting. The point you point raised regarding Duke and the role of AI, which that's actually really fascinating. And so I'm just thinking about how you how students could navigate through, you know, these different how the landscape has changed. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

So I will say a few things about the AI essays. I've written 5 or 6 college essays on AI there.

You can tell it's written by a bot. And that was with me going back and changing things and asking AI to do certain things and change things up. You it's it's crazy. Like there's no way I would let any students submit an essay like that. because it's it doesn't sound like a human's written. I'm just being completely honest with you.

 

Like, I've done it like. And I did it also with my letters of recommendation that I have to now write for my students at my school. I've learned things through a bot and there's no comparison there. Human element is is a big touch, I would say, for the race issue. we saw a lot of a lot of schools after Scotus announcement went and changed their supplemental questions to include a question about race or adversity in their supplemental questions.

And for those kinds of questions, A.I you can't you can't write. You can't write a like that through AI. Right? So, I'd say I'd say we're going to I it's going to be here. I don't think it's kind of like if you're a smart person, you can you can see exactly what's written by AI and what's not.But the smarter the computer gets, right? And the more information the computer is going to have on essays. And I'm more than it's going to get smarter as we go along, for sure. University of Michigan Honors program just released their honors. Like they invite kids for their honors program. And they said, put an essay through through AI about answering this prompt and then tell me and then and then send that to us and tell us what's missing from the essay.So they're using that. They are. So they're Uising AI there. No, the kids are using it. But then they're asking, okay, what did I miss? Like what? Tell us about that experience. Right. So it's actually very clever. So I'm wondering like you know what other schools with out of the fall. Of course with that, you know, we won't know the supplements for quite a while now.

So 

 

Susan Stone:

other than transcript. So you rank transcript first because I've always thought that. Right. What would you say is next? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

every school has different priorities, but I would say what would be next is, extracurricular activities. If there's testing at this child has testing, I would say that would be next. Right. If they're submitting testing, then I would say, extracurricular activities.

Then I would say letter of recommendations. And then I would say essays, but letter recommendations and essays probably are maybe equal. Every every school is very different. And, yeah. So that's what I would say. But the extracurricular activities, you know, showing what the let the students doing and they're not just going home and watching Netflix and playing, you know, video games is going to be really important.

 

Kristina Supler:

Are all extracurriculars created equal? I mean, what would you say in terms of if a student is, you know, let's say you have that child who's just interested in everything and wants to be in this club and play that sport and have a job and volunteer and student council, so on and so forth. I mean, wonderful, but at the same time, how would you what are your thoughts or what advice do you have for families that have to sort of focus or call through the extracurriculars, 

 

Susan Stone:

breath or death

 

Davida Amkraut:

Yeah. So I say be authentic to who you are. If you are doing all those extracurriculars because you are genuinely interested in all these different things, do it right, because then that will also be reflective on your transcript. It will reflective from your letters of recommendation. If you're doing all these activities because you think you're just checking off boxes. Oh, I'm doing a journalism one here. I'm doing a math one here. I'm doing an engineering one here that'll check off all these boxes and they'll look well rounded. I don't think that's going to be super authentic. And if it won't, it'll resonate with the application. and there are two schools of thought. People are like, you want to create a profile and you want to make sure if you're an engineering student, then you are going to do everything engineering, you know, in your extracurriculars. I don't necessarily buy into that so much. I think that authentically, kids should be able to allow to be explore what they're doing. And they're 14, 15 when this all begins. my advice is pay to play. Activities never mean much. Which and I say when I say pay to play. I spent the summer at Harvard with a two week course on X, Y, Z. You know those? That's what we call on the college world pay to play. And

 

Susan Stone:

I painted murals in a third world country. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Right. So those are manufactured those are manufactured experiences. And then there are the pay to play where you send your kids off and you are going to say, oh, they're going to, you know, be on this campus and it's going to look great. I mean, scooping ice cream looks much better than being on a college campus. You know, 

 

Kristina Supler:

let me ask you, though, about being authentic. Conversely, conversely, do the child who's interested in everything give the child who's just all in on my life passion is crocheting? Should parents say, okay, that's wonderful that you crochet, but maybe think about some other activities?

Or I mean, how do you when you have a child who's laser focused on, a sport, a hobby, an instrument, whatever it may be, 

 

Susan Stone:

Unless they're going to do something cool with crocheting, right? 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Yeah. I mean, I think that. Right. So. Okay, if they're if their goal is maybe to be in fashion. Right. Okay. So it's amazing and it's amazing. And then let's try to see like entrepreneurial stuff going on out there. Or maybe there's marketing or maybe there's like you know, maybe you want to take some Coursera classes on fashion marketing and then also babysit and also peer tutor in your class or, you know, or, you know, crochet, teach, teach other people how to crochet or crochet for, you know, for babies that are in need. Right. So like, you can kind of take that, that sort of that passion, which is an overused word in the college world, right? And sort of infused into different areas, you realize that are meaningful. 

 

Kristina Supler:

So how does that laser focused interest translate to your college education, but also maybe ways to, you know, iterations of broadening that interest in other respects.So like the babysitting or so on and so forth, that that was good inside there.

 

Davida Amkraut:

So what you tell me, 

 

Susan Stone:

I think you just comment. That was a really good insight. But I do want to go back to the pay to play because just because something doesn't have great college resume value, I don't think it's a reason to not do it if you have another valuable course.

 

Davida Amkraut:

Of course

 

Susan Stone:

Right. So my number two, who you know, and you were his college counselor privately went to Berkeley one summer and he today will say that was a formative experience for him, that summer experience that he reflects back and feel so grateful that he went. I mean, I don't think we should always pick things because of will it look good for college? No, it won't do something else. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Right? So he might not have even reported that experience at Berkeley. Do you know what I'm saying? Like that 

 

Susan Stone:

he didn’t 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Right. 

 

Kristina Supler:

And that's interesting. 

 

Susan Stone:

I was a pay to play. He did not everything. What we did his job right.

 

Davida Amkraut:

 I mean, it could have also been like, okay, that could also been a little bit of a touch point for an essay. Right. Or you know, but you only have ten activities to report, period. Right. So you want to make sure that you're reporting the ones that mean the most to you and that, you know, you feel authentically you. And I always tell my students, if you did it and you really, really glean so much from it, then put it down for sure. Right? But let's also do the description so that the reader understands why that experience was so important to you and what you know, what it did to sort of that formative experience that sort of I 

 

Susan Stone:

Is it hard internally. Now write those letters of recommendation. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Oh my God, it's so I can't even tell you what I have to do. Like. Right. So I'm going the and this is and I and I also feel pain for these other counselors who don't have this luxury of writing periods in, in their schedule. Right? I have writing periods in my schedule because I'm working at a private school. Right. and I remember when I worked at Laurel, they had days where they didn't even come to school, the counselors, because they were home on their writing days, and they were sitting there and they have all, you know, they have all the transcripts out there So what I do with my students is I meet them 2 or 3 times, you know, form a rapport with them. And then I also go back into their anecdotal and I grab sentences or anecdotes from their teachers, and I craft a whole narrative that, you know, encompasses this kid. You know, a page, a page and a half long and, sort of represent the student. And it's painful that, you know, other counselors don't have that time that, you know, those resources. Some teachers don't even write an external site where they're just literally filling in, you know, bubbles up, you know, comes to class, you know, 

 

Susan Stone:

so schools do better, have better relationships with the colleges than others. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

So I will I will say that's that's like we're seeing that fade a lot.Like, right. Brandeis University, that used to be a school that would do advocacy calls. And they said, no, we're not doing them this year. Brown used to do advocacy calls. They said no 

 

Kristina Supler:

Why is it fading?

 

Davida Amkraut:

 because of the inequity. 

 

Kristina Supler:

That makes sense. 

 

Davida Amkraut:

Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean it makes complete sense. Barnard also did it. They they they told us this year I mean this was also my first year on staff. But so I can see the counselors, they're like oh my gosh look we don't have that Intel right. And I'm like, well I feel like that's that's good. 

 

Susan Stone:

Well, I mean this has been amazing and it always is. And I'm so happy to see you. I know we spoke last week. Do you have any lasting thought regarding 2025 to say to parents, those juniors.

 

Kristina Supler:

What wisdom would you like to leave?

 

Davida Amkraut:

I would like to leave that name brands or not, that there are more to the name brands that really I am a true believer is that college is what you make of it when you get there, right? And you will bloom where you were planted and that you should not. You should look beyond the name brand, right? You should definitely look.There are hidden gems out there that will take care of your child, that will take care of you and really, really value, you know, the students that will be coming to their campuses.

 

Susan Stone:

I felt that way last weekend at Ringling College. It's very small, but I felt like when I walked on this campus, I didn't even know about the school, but I felt like I found a hidden gem for my daughter to really flourish as an artist.

 

Davida Amkraut:

And for. Yeah, yeah. And the other thing I would say is fall in love with more than one school, right? You're not marrying the school for, you know, fall in love with three, four different schools, one a far reach one, you know, a target, one to, like, fall in love, you know, and then you'll.

 

Kristina Supler:

My mother says it's always good to have options to be.

 

Susan Stone:

You know, it was a pleasure. I just love talking to you. And I miss you. So it's great to see you. All right. Take care. Bye. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Thank you. 

 

Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle @stonesupler and for more resources, visit us online at https://studentdefense.kjk.com/

 

Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.

 

Students sometimes enjoy cuddling, but innocent acts can sometimes lead to serious Title IX cases. These situations are more common than you might expect. Join Susan and Kristina in this episode of Real Talk as they discuss common pitfalls, focusing on important aspects like communication, conversation, and consent. Tune in for essential insights, and be sure to share this information with your students.

  LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

https://studentdefense.kjk.com/

  TRANSCRIPT:

Susan Stone:

Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.

 

Susan Stone:

Nice to see you on this dreary, rainy day. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Indeed, it is. 

 

Susan Stone:

It is. Well, we're going to talk about something that's actually good to do on a rainy day. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Ooh, tell me more. What could that be? 

 

Susan Stone:

Cuddling. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Who doesn't love cuddling? 

 

Susan Stone:

My gosh. You know what? I'm mourning the fact that my youngest is about to go to college.

And we talked about this on prior podcasts, but do you remember we used to have younger kids. But back in the day. 

 

Kristina Supler:

My kids love to CUDDLE Yeah, 

 

Susan Stone:

There's nothing like that. Cuddling up a little kid, especially on a rainy morning.

 

Susan Stone:

Couldn't agree more.

 

Susan Stone:

I love it. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, why are you talking about cuddling today, Susan? Do I go with this?

 

Susan Stone:

Well, we're going to get there because, as you know, nobody sees us and things until something goes wrong. And what is that saying? Everything's fine till somebody gets poked in the eye. Do you remember that thing? 

 

Kristina Supler:

Yes. 

 

Susan Stone:

Well, we're going to talk about cuddling going wrong. But first, let's just talk about why do we cuddle? I mean, I was doing a little research on cuddling and did you know that cuddling produces oxytocin and basically makes you feel good and safe?

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, that's interesting because I suppose and you know, you're the special ed wiz, if you will, is it could one argue that cuddling is kind of like a form of O.T. in a way, occupational therapy or stimulating you in some way? 

 

Susan Stone:

Well, we know it improves sleep. There are some studies out there that says it actually boosts the immune system and it, believe it or not, lowers blood pressure.

That's crazy, isn't it? 

 

Kristina Supler:

Now that I didn't see that one coming, I'm just thinking about like some of our little kids and people with sensitivities to touch and touch can be a good thing. And also maybe something that can be triggering. 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, exactly. Well, I would say that in early childhood, cuddling definitely leads to attachment parenting. You really form bonds.

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, that like when you first have your baby and they want to put the baby on your chest for the. What does that kangaroo care? What was it called?

 

Susan Stone:

 I think it's kangaroo care. It's been a minute

 

Kristina Supler:

and they have had a baby. 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, but I think your point is well taken that some children actually are averse to touch, you know, like that feeling. But most people do. And a little simple hug or cuddle is wonderful for parents. And I'm a big fan of parents being physically affectionate with children. But.

 

Kristina Supler:

but there's always a but 

 

Susan Stone:

but we're not here to talk about parents snuggling their babies, 

 

Kristina Supler:

I think as part of our podcast. It's funny, every episode there's sort of a theme of, in reality, things that are nice. Most of the time innocent sure and then put them on a college campus and the title nine world. And of course, there's always room for things to go wrong. So are we talking about cuddling in the context of Title Nine today? 

 

Susan Stone:

We are. Because one person's innocent, platonic, asexual cuddling can be another person's prelude to a hookup.

 

Kristina Supler:

Indeed, indeed. And that actually makes me think we've had over the years we've had quite a few cases that are sort of rooted in, I don't know, cuddling going wrong, if you will, though I think it probably depends on who you ask. Right?

 

Susan Stone:

Well, I just learned that there is a definitional difference between cuddling and snuggling. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Now this is totally new to me.Tell me more. I'm very interested. 

 

Susan Stone:

Okay. I read by Rabbi Google. You know, the go to source of all things. 

 

Kristina Supler:

When you're done, I'm going to tell you something that I just came across on Rabbi Google. 

 

Susan Stone:

Okay, good. So cuddling his arms around someone and snuggling is rubbing up and wiggling against a person. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Okay, that makes sense.

 

Susan Stone:

It does?

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah. 

 

Susan Stone:

How do you think it makes sense? Supler 

 

Kristina Supler:

Because snuggling. It makes me think about, like, getting cozy and, like, under a blanket. And you're sort of, I don't know, inching up and just, like, being warm. And as I'm saying this, I'm realizing I don't even I don't know, it just makes sense to me that one's different.

 

Susan Stone:

Well, so maybe we're not here really to talk about cuddling. Maybe we're here to talk about snuggling when that goes wrong, 

 

Kristina Supler:

Perhaps. But you reminded me, actually, not too long ago, I saw this headline about how in Manhattan, because of course, you can find anything in Manhattan, there are actually 

 

Susan Stone:

I love the Big Apple 

 

Kristina Supler:

professional cuddling services where people charge $150 an hour to cuddle in a platonic way because people are seeking out like that touch therapy thing.

 

Which made me think of the OT question I asked you earlier. How about that though? Truly, anything you want can be found in New York. 

 

Susan Stone:

It can be. But let's go back. And that's interesting. It may be kind of creepy. I don't know how I feel about it, but let's go back to college, because in college there are people who like to have what they call cuddle buddies.

 

Kristina Supler:

Sure. And I think that from the perspective of Title nine, how can things go wrong? I mean, it's really in essence, any sort of touching or physical contact, if it's unwelcome, could perhaps give rise to a claim for sexual harassment.

 

Susan Stone:

So let's set the stage for our listeners. It's late. You've already gone out. The bars have closed.So it's what, 2 a.m. 

 

Kristina Supler:

sure. I guess it depends what state you're in, but I think two AMs a reasonable time. 

 

Susan Stone:

Okay. And you know, nothing good happens at 2 a.m.. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Nothing. 

 

Susan Stone:

Nothing. So it's 2 a.m. and you decide to watch a little Netflix and chill for your evening out. Maybe you've had a beer or two or ten and you decide to cuddle and accidentally you might even fall asleep and or not. And the cuddling to one person, they're tired. They want to go to sleep, but to the other person they get aroused, duu duu dun

 

Kristina Supler:

Sure. I mean, I think one could argue that that is a natural consequence of cuddling 

 

Susan Stone:

and a hand might wander. 

 

Kristina Supler:

It's possible, 

 

Susan Stone:

and a hand might wander without consent. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Indeed. 

 

Susan Stone:

And there's your title nine. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah. I mean, the whole at the heart of the Title nine analysis was the issue of unwelcomeness. And then also, you know, a conversation. It makes me think Conversations we often have with our students of any age is sort of impact versus intent, you know? But I didn't mean for anything, you know, to be upsetting or offensive, but it was received that way by someone else. And so what do you do with that? And that's really, in essence, what all of our Title nine cases are about, cause I don't think anyone ever says, I intentionally did X, Y, Z to hurt someone. It's always I didn't mean to or something was misunderstood or misconstrued. And then you have the, you know, the consequences of whatever the circumstance was.

And that's often what we're navigating through is sort of the the gray. 

 

Susan Stone:

Well, because the definition of content send can be words or actions. And so what is an action? I thought we were cuddling. I thought we were getting closer. I thought you also were romantically interested in me. And so I thought it was a natural move on my part to move my hand.

And the other person's thinking, wait, you didn't even talk to me? But that's not the definition of consent. It's words or actions. And I think that's where the confusion comes from. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, and I'm going to say this, that, you know, sort of a prevailing viewpoint might be that, well, come on, please. Everyone knows that cuddling is just sort of a gateway to a hookup.

How would you respond to that? 

 

Susan Stone:

I don't even think that's true because as we started our whole podcast, parents cuddle children, but as we have worked our way through this issue, I think the confusion comes from the difference between cuddling and snuggling. And I think that college students don't spend enough time as they're creating these cuddle buddies to determine, is it truly platonic?

 

How do you know that you might feel platonic, and the other person might actually have feelings, and the cuddling or snuggling enhances those feelings. 

 

Kristina Supler:

So, I hear you. But then I guess let me ask you this. It sorts of circles back to what I very in artfully tried to define before the difference between cuddling and snuggling. If you're snuggling.How would you define the two? Because if you're saying one is more, it sounds like you're saying one is okay and one can be problematic. I mean, you try to define the difference. 

 

Susan Stone:

Well, I like the definition I gave you. And first of all, both are okay as long as everybody's on the same page.

 

Kristina Supler:

Right. Consent. 

 

Susan Stone:

Consent. It always comes down to consent. I don't think that snuggling is appropriate without conversation. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah, 

 

Susan Stone:

and it's certainly not appropriate. And many, many contexts. It is, to me, a boundary violation to rub your body against someone without a conversation. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Agree. Agree. There needs to be a conversation. And you know, that makes me think as well that, you know, certainly, as you've pointed out correctly, most school policies indicates consent and again in Title nine world requires it can be given through words or actions.

But I think, you know, from a let's put a lawyer head on from a best practices perspective, we really do encourage all of our students. And when we talk, we sort of make the point that the safest way forward is to have a clear, explicit conversation. Are you okay if we, you know, fill in the blank, whatever it is, to just have a clear understanding of what the boundary is, what a person is okay with, and perhaps not okay with.

 

Susan Stone:

Let's get a little embarrassing here, can we? 

 

Kristina Supler:

Sure. 

 

Susan Stone:

Sometimes the body does what the body wants to do, even if your mind says something different. 

 

Kristina Supler:

You talk about involuntary

 

Susan Stone:

erections. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Sure. 

 

Susan Stone:

Okay. Now I do not have a penis. I am a female. You know. The penis is going to do what the penis wants to do. Supler. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Tell me more.Where are we going with this? 

 

Susan Stone:

I can envision a scenario where there is cuddling or snuggling and a male gets a hard on. It can happen easily. 

 

Kristina Supler:

It could happen. 

 

Susan Stone:

And that's really embarrassing. What? What should the guy do? I feel like I'm Howard Stern talking about this. Really? Well, what should happen?

 

Kristina Supler:

I mean, it can be embarrassing for the male.It could be whoever is the other person participating in the 

 

Susan Stone:

male or female 

 

Kristina Supler:

Male or female. It can make that person. They might like it, but also can make them feel really, really uncomfortable. And then what? What do you do? 

 

Susan Stone:

I don't know. Should they get. Should the person with the erection just get out of bed and go into the bathroom? I don't know. 

 

Kristina Supler:

I don't know either. And I feel like really delve into this topic. We need the male perspective because we're both females, but. 

 

Susan Stone:

Well, no, I. I'm married. Married? We get this. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah,

 

Susan Stone:

we both have raised sons. 

 

Kristina Supler:

So, the question is 

 

Susan Stone:

not that I've talked about this with my son. Everyone out there, I want to clarify.

I have never discussed this topic with my child. 

 

Kristina Supler:

So, the question is, could that be a title nine violation? 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, it could be in today's crazy world. But how unfair is that? 

 

Kristina Supler:

I totally agree. I totally agree. And I think that, you know, it sort of gets back to this issue of the importance of students having 

 

Susan Stone:

self-awareness, 

 

Kristina Supler:

self-awareness, but also the ability to and we talk about this all the time, the ability to have difficult conversations is like, this is awkward. This would be totally awkward to talk about with someone you don't even really know that well, but like, Hey, I don't like that I'm going to go. Or I mean, because I think the worst way to handle it is everyone's awkward and uncomfortable and there's no conversation. And then for days, the interaction is being dissected and analyzed and then outside voices sort of filter, and the narrative gets rewritten about what happens.

 

Susan Stone:

I'm going to challenge you on something, 

 

Kristina Supler:

okay? Please do.

 

Susan Stone:

You're a big fan. As am I, on conversation.

 

Kristina Supler:

I am. I'm a talker. You're a talker. 

 

Susan Stone:

But you know what? Some things you need a little self-awareness. I don't think. And everyone, I would love for you to respond. Send us your comments. I want to know what you think out there.

But if you're really into someone and you secretly like them, can you platonically cuddle? I put that out there. I say, No, 

 

Kristina Supler:

I don't think you can either. That's actually I agree. I don't think you can. I think it's inevitable where where it's going to end up. But are you. So let me ask you.

 

Susan Stone:

So cuddle Without talking to the person and saying, hey, maybe this is where the conversation comes in.I don't think I can do that. I don't think I can get in bed with you in. And let's face it, how big are college beds? 

 

Kristina Supler:

I mean, there aren't, like, extra long singles twins, right? Yeah. I remember going to bed with me and. And buying extra long sheets because, like, that's what you needed for some reason. 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah. You still need those extra-long sheets. But what I'm saying is I don't see how someone can platonically Cuddle. And if you're male, not get erect. Or how about this? A woman? We females get aroused too. 

 

Kristina Supler:

I've been told 

 

Susan Stone:

I've been told. I heard from a friend. You know, that's not a natural place to put yourself if you want to remain platonic.So I say a little self-awareness goes a long way. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think also, though, there's you.

 

Susan Stone:

What do you mean? You don't know. That's ridiculous. You do know if you like, someone don't hop in the old bed with them without thinking that, you know, the juices are going to flow. 

 

Kristina Supler:

How about this? Cuddle or no cuddle? You're alone with someone at 2:00 in the morning watching TV. Like, come on. I mean, I think that, too. It could sort of be a situation where if we're really talking about self-awareness, I don't think it's limited to cuddling. I think it should be, you know, sort of broad into just being mindful of the situations in which we find ourselves. Can you if you have a crush on someone and you just want to watch, I don't know, a show together on Netflix at 2:00 in the morning, You know, one could argue that that's sort of also a recipe to test limits and see where things go.

 

Susan Stone:

Drunk or not drunk?

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, let's say both. Right. Because, I mean, either way, alcohol, we've had plenty of cases that are, you know, cuddling, touching, gone wrong with no alcohol involved. I mean, it's not let's face it, alcohol is involved in many, if not most of our cases, but certainly not all. Certainly not all. 

 

Susan Stone:

You know what else could happen? As I'm thinking about this, you could be thinking that you really are just friends. But sometimes you awake the dragon. 

 

Kristina Supler:

I mean, I just 

 

Susan Stone:

Feelings happen.

 

Kristina Supler:

Feelings do happen. But there's a difference between feelings happening. And then, like, I don't know, I just struggle with the idea of and maybe I'm being to I don't know, traditional in my views, but like platonic cuddling between a male and a female at 2:00 in the morning, I don't know that it's possible.I really don't. 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, I'm with you. And I also wonder about those New York Cutlers. Do they really just cuddle? 

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, I mean, according to the news article, yes, but I mean, I'm with you and that I'm very circumspect. And then he also does wonder about germs and whatnot. But supposedly there's like good sanitation measures in places. 

 

Susan Stone:

We're getting so far off my gosh, I'm embarrassed for ourselves. But look, there is a lot of health benefits to cuddling and you can feel lonely in college and there's nothing wrong when the terms are clear. Yes, I will follow Suplers ideas, conversations, key. It can be a really nice way of connecting, forging bonds, getting good sleep, lowering your blood pressure and boosting your immunity. As long as everybody stays on the same page. I just worry for those little accidental erections and things that might go bump in the night accidentally. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Accidental erections. Okay, well, hopefully we've given our listeners some food for thought today. This is just sort of a fun and lighthearted discussion. But I mean, in all seriousness, we do see plenty of matters that, you know, involve components of cuddling and miscommunication.

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, and it's not funny when you have a Title nine case. It's embarrassing. our clients who come into our office or we zoom in with their mortified. It's awful. It's just awful.

 

Kristina Supler:

It's awful for everyone involved and 

 

Susan Stone:

Also awful for the recipient. Who thinks that way. 

 

Kristina Supler:

I was going to say it's awful as well for the person who maybe dozed off and then they wake up and are like, Whoa, what's going on?

So, you know, I mean, again, I think that, you know, 

 

Susan Stone:

No one wins 

 

Kristina Supler:

No One wins 

 

Susan Stone:

Or everyone wins, depending on what happens. Right. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, should colleges really be in the mix of passing through these scenarios? I'm not sure about that one. But under the regs, under the current title nine regulations are policies. They are. And so it is an issue that Title nine offices across the country are navigating.And so, you know, bottom line, parents out there, listeners, these two are topics to, you know, put on your students radar. 

 

Susan Stone:

Talk about cuddling versus snuggling. Stay connected if you would like. We'd love to hear from you and see what you think. And let's keep the conversation going. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Until next time.

Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle @stonesupler and for more resources, visit us online at https://studentdefense.kjk.com/

 

Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.

 

In this week's episode of 'Real Talk,' Susan and Kristina uncover the secret to their successful partnership. Join them for a hilarious exploration of their working relationship, their practice,and the valuable lessons learned during their nearly decade-long collaboration. So grab a cup of coffee and join them for a candid conversation about what makes their professional bond so special.

 

LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

• https://studentdefense.kjk.com/ 

• https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807 

• https://www.instagram.com/stonesupler/

  TRANSCRIPT:

Susan Stone:

Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.

 

Kristina Supler:

Susan ever since the Super Bowl.

 

Susan Stone:

Oh no, oh no. Don't say it.

 

Kristina Supler:

I have a secret guilty pleasure. I confess to you and our listeners out there like,

 

Susan Stone:

Oh my God here, it's coming.

 

Kristina Supler:

But I am totally, completely obsessed with the dunking Dunkin Donuts commercials, the Ben Affleck Matt Damon commercials. Did you see those during the Super Bowl?

 

Susan Stone:

Okay. Not only did I see them, but I saw us in Ben and Matt.

 

Kristina Supler:

That's what I thought.

 

Susan Stone:

I know.

 

Kristina Supler:

What is about those two. I was so drawn to it. I can't stop watching when they're there walking in. We got touchdown, Tommy. On the key.

 

Susan Stone:

You love that one.

 

Kristina Supler:

I love that one.

 

Susan Stone:

Touchdown Tommy on the keys. Okay, Because here's what it is. They've been together a long time working and kind of separating.Yeah. We're not childhood friends, but.

 

 Kristina Supler:

No, we're not.

 

Susan Stone:

 But it's been.

 

Kristina Supler:

 It's been a minute.

 

Susan Stone:

It's been a second. Collaborating,

 

Kristina Supler:

Creativity

 

Susan Stone:

Creativity. And, you know, they drive each other crazy, which we do sometimes.

 

Kristina Supler:

We do. We do. But there's humor there. I can't even tell you how much it made me laugh when Matt Damon looks at Ben Affleck and he's like, how do you like them donuts?

 

Susan Stone:

Oh my God.

 

Kristina Supler:

I’m so sorry.

 

Susan Stone:

Okay. The line I loved is sometimes it's really hard to be your friend or remember, I would do anything for you. This is anything. And I know those moments because in our working relationship, in our friendship, we ask an absolute a lot from each other.

 

Kristina Supler:

Oh yeah. It's it's really it's been it's been quite a journey we've been on for the past.

I don't even know how long it's been.

 

Susan Stone:

for the listeners out there. And those of you who are in Greek organizations, I hard rushed Sue Blur to be my law partner. I remember saying, Join me in this practice. And you're like, Well, I still want my criminal defense and you still do.

 

Kristina Supler:

I still do. You do. I do.

 

Susan Stone:

But mostly we represent students out there and we do handle a lot of criminal defense and we deal do with that. We still deal with sex issues

 

Kristina Supler:

all day, every day.

 

Susan Stone:

 It was a hard sell getting you in, but we made it and it's been actually almost ten years.

 

Kristina Supler:

So why are we talking about this today? Why what is the point of this episode of this topic?

Are our listeners are like what we're gone from done kings and Matt Damon and Ben Affleck to to the two of you are

 

Susan Stone:

Dunking’s or dukin?

 

Kristina Supler:

 it's done Kings Kings because they're kings I swear folks she’s  really smart

 

Susan Stone:

I just feel like what Dunkin Donuts like

 

Kristina Supler:

 Yeah it is but in the commercial they were getting creative. Okay okay,.

 

Susan Stone:

Guys that's what life is like in the office and why I do

 

Kristina Supler:

And that by the way I knew when I met her I said, she's the one for me.

 

Susan Stone:

Absolutely. Guys, please stop. I'm menopausal I’ll pee in my pants. Okay, so how. Here's the thing, guys.

 

Kristina Supler:

For real.

 

Susan Stone:

For real.

 

Kristina Supler:

In all seriousness,

 

Susan Stone:

In all seriousness, we do handle your serious legal issues, but it's hard work and you really have to grind a lot of hours and there's got to be a lot of trust in the person you work with. And there's got a lot there's got to be a lot of synergy. And I think that we're doing this episode to show that we really are more than law partners, that we will be like being together.

 

Kristina Supler:

Absolutely. This is sort of a behind the scenes episode, if you will. And I mean, I think that aside from, you know, our spouses and significant others and friends and family member, people who know us really closely, some people are surprised to hear and learn of how much time we spend together. And we always say, well, it's good thing we really like each other because our work is grueling. There's so many hours and traveling and dealing with tough topics. It's important that we have a really good relationship with each other to get through it all.

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, we don't get enough time being buds. We try, I agree with, but we really don't because at the end of the day we want to go home and be with our friends and our family and get a little break from each other.But it has almost been ten years.

 

Kristina Supler:

 I know that's crazy to think about. So let's go back in the time machine and you tell our listeners, take it back a little. Austin Powers Yeah, How? Let's talk about how we met. Like what was our first encounter?

 

Susan Stone:

We met, Yeah, Yeah. So it's funny, I was a working at my old law firm and Cristina's boss at her firm actually merged into us for a hot sec.

 

Kristina Supler:

That's right.

 

Susan Stone:

Hot, sec

 

 Kristina Supler:

hot sec. I just had my second child.

 

Susan Stone:

 I can't believe that

 

Kristina Supler:

lot of professional transition going on, but, you know,

 

Susan Stone:

and we're talking high school for your oldest, and that little one is about to become his own young king in the theater.

 

Kristina Supler:

Yes. He is a man of the art. Yeah, But yeah, I mean, I remember it was like 2013 ish, maybe even further back than that, b

 

Susan Stone:

But a little bit closer to when the Obama regulations came out in 2011.That’s scary guys.

 

Kristina Supler:

I know. And I remember I'm plugging away doing my thing. Susan's in her world of what At that point, general litigation in special education.

 

Susan Stone:

Well, and I was in the beginning of starting my own practice, and I knew I didn't want to do it alone. I knew I needed a buddy with me because it's just let's face it, it's more fun.

Life is more fun with a friend. And we had a project, a case came in that required both skill sets.

 

Kristina Supler:

I remember I got a call for a student at a very reputable university in the area, very infamous school in terms of Title nine. And I got the call saying, Hey, do you do title 9 work? My son's got this issue.He's been accused of sexual assault. And at the time I vaguely knew what Title nine was, but I knew that I knew sex, sexual assault. Right. And so, like,

 

Susan Stone:

just came out so awful. It's like you just keep it all, you

 

Kristina Supler:

I  know, the how you try to avoid the the puns. They're just right there and you fall into

 

Susan Stone:

Keep it clean. Keep it clean This is a family show.

 

Kristina Supler:

But I remember talking to you and saying, Susan, I have this case. I feel like you would be, you know, good person to partner with on it. And you're like, Yeah, I've done some of those as well and the rest is history.

 

Susan Stone:

And you know what's interesting to talk about, when we get tense at those moments of tension, it's usually fear.

 

Kristina Supler:

I agree.

 

Susan Stone:

When we have fear

 

Kristina Supler:

 uncertainty, fear

 

Susan Stone:

or exhaustion.

 

Kristina Supler:

That too,

 

Susan Stone:

I do have to share a story with what a good law partner Kristina supler is. And what a good friend. Supler is. my gosh. Two weeks ago I got hit with the virus. It was one of the nastiest viruses in my life. I will say for me, it was worse than COVID.

I was.

 

Kristina Supler:

You were so sick. I don't. I don't know the last time I've seen you that ill. I mean you were writhing in pain. You were literally lying on the floor of your office.

Susan Stone:

yeah. Guys, I was in a dress with heels,

 

Kristina Supler:

a Prada dress, I might add.

 

Susan Stone:

It was a beautiful vintage Prada, and I had a very nice bike.Black heel, little Lu bu little red showing on the bottom. Loved it. And I was in so much pain and I was sweating. And we actually had a very important 3:00 meeting and I had to be there. I laid on my floor because I was not going to miss that meeting. No holding my stomach got up, turn my camera on and would turn my camera off to puke.It was so ugly. And then you drove me home and I wore to Mass. And then you got sick. So that's just like crazy,

 

Kristina Supler:

I’m still on antibiotic .

 

 Susan Stone:

Just the gift that keeps on giving.

 

Kristina Supler:

That's right.

 

Susan Stone:

So, what we get out of it is really important. I think the feeling of you always have my back and I always have your back. And

 

Kristina Supler:

 Absolutely. Because, I mean, so much of our work is rooted in absolute uncertainty and there's very little like black and white, you know, clear answers for our cases. And so you're sort of working in a lot of gray and working off of instinct, and sometimes you're not sure what to do. And clients are upset. Everyone's upset. It's tough emotionally.

And it's just it's so rewarding to have someone there by your side go through it with you.

 

Susan Stone:

You do take it for granted. You forget, my gosh, that's your reality. But you know, look, we see clients at our worst and people say and do things when they're in crisis that they would regret later or Yeah, they feel like I've got to take it out on somebody or, you know, not everybody's so nice.

Newsflash, I tell that to my kids all the time. Not everybody's nice.

 

 

Kristina Supler:

This is one of life's big lessons for many of our clients, unfortunately.

 

Susan Stone:

Interesting that I want to go back to Matt and Ben. Yeah, I feel like I know you, Matt and Ben. If you're out there listening, check that out. And Ben. Yeah. Do you think they're going to listen to this podcast?

 

Kristina Supler:

I'm sure they will. And they probably already know me because I went to Boston University and they're Boston people. So like, I feel a connection, right?

 

Susan Stone:

Okay, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Hello. And maybe J.Lo

 

Kristina Supler:

Do you feel a connection with J.Lo.

 

Susan Stone:

Absolutely. Not even a little connection, but. But I love you. I love you out there. But we have sort of merged because I would say when we began, you were always much more structured. So I would want it. When we started podcasting, I was podcast and you'd be like, we’ve got to get ready. No, no, no, we've got to do it now. I think now I take a little more time and you've got a lot more of that spontaneity. And we just over the years, I think, honestly, ages mellowed me, and you've gotten a little more spark maybe because you're coming into your own.

 

Kristina Supler:

That's it. That's right. It's funny you always say we're just like an old married couple. But it's true

 

Susan Stone:

It's True.

 

Kristina Supler:

It really is true. We can finish each other's sentences. We do mind melding. Remember back in the day when we did improv lessons together,

 

Susan Stone:

Do you think Matt and Ben did improv to get ready for the dunking? Is it really dunking?

I'm stuck on it. I can't get off of it. Guys who knew I like that you’re such a moron

 

 Kristina Supler:

Anyone who watched the commercials. But that's okay.

 

Susan Stone:

I was very focused on Tom Brady. Okay.

 

 Kristina Supler:

Touchdown, Tom. Tommy on the Keys.

 

Susan Stone:

He's kind of cute.

 

Kristina Supler:

 That's my line. I love that line,

 

Susan Stone:

but I can’t let it go anyways.

 

Kristina Supler:

 So let's talk about.I mean, why we get this question a lot. How do you do what you do? Why do you do what you do and how do you answer that?

 

Susan Stone:

it's a higher calling for me.

 

Kristina Supler:

I totally agree,

 

Susan Stone:

because I'm sure that I would be doing a little better if we had gone into corporate law or tax or one of those like non-sex things that, you know, people do in big firms.

But we get the privilege of helping people at their lowest point in their life. And we have the privilege when you are being accused or you've gone through something on a college campus, it does feel life altering and it is life altering. And to see younger people through the other side is an honest calling and a privilege. And it's exhausting.

It's it's been life changing for me and it's given meaning to my career.

 

Kristina Supler:

 I would say for myself, I mean, I agree it's something you're called to do. But also for me, I would add that there's just something I think it probably does go back to my prior criminal defense roots and that I just can't help but root for the underdog.

There's someone in a room full of people and no one else likes them, wants to talk to them. People are giving them the ugly. I like. That's the person I just gravitate towards and I want to help. And I think particularly with students and these crazy, awful rules and regulations that surround these big court proceedings and then other campus conduct cases, watching young adults in these awful moments and they have to advocate for themselves.

They have to essentially be lawyers. And they're not you know, they're like literally 12. It's it's heartbreaking. And I just feel so passionate about helping these people get through these awful moments in their lives.

 

Susan Stone:

And you like talking about sex

 

Kristina Supler:

I love them. I might. There's something I truly enjoy talking to teens and college kids about their social lives, their personal lives, sex.Sure. I mean, it's so funny, though, because I remember back in the day when we first started and we'd sort of have this stiffness, no pun intended, to talk about

 

Susan Stone:

I don’t believe you, just said that

 

Kristina Supler:

to talking about, though, you know, the sexual encounter where things went wrong, so on and so forth. And, you know, pre-COVID days obviously before there were virtual meetings and sitting in the conference room and having these terrified kids look at us and like, my gosh, how can I see these these body part words in front of these older women?

But I don't know. There's just something I think we're both very comfortable with the topic,

 

Susan Stone:

guys. College kids still very few use the proper body parts. We still hear boobies and titties instead of breasts. It's true. We do.

 

Kristina Supler:

It is true. And aside from slang terms, I think many of them just like literally don't know the right names for parts

 

Susan Stone:

that's read our book.Yes, Your kid read the book. That's right.

 

Kristina Supler:

Going with that. How did how did you read my mind News out there to check out. Yes. Your kid.

 

Susan Stone:

So, I want to end with sharing the best skill I've learned from you, and that is how to deliver really difficult news to people in a way that's kind, firm and compassionate.

Because in the olden days, when I first started out, I would just look at a kid and say, You smoked too much weed, you got to stop.

 

Kristina Supler:

And you did.

 

Susan Stone:

I did. You did. And it was true. Guys. I just tell the truth preach.

 

Kristina Supler:

Well that's the thing, is that your messages, I mean, were they were right. They were spot on.

 

Susan Stone:

Yes, they were.

 

Kristina Supler:

It's hard for kids and parents, especially the parents, to hear because as parents, you know, think about I can appreciate this now that I'm a mother, you're obviously a mother. It's you know, we view our children's successes and struggles in some respects as our own or because of us. And I don't mean that like taking credit for it, but rather if it's like, okay, how did I screw up as a parent where did I go wrong? Did I cause this? And I think that's part of the reason why it's so hard for so many parents to hear,

 

Susan Stone:

I still get research, guys. If your kids drinking too much, I am going to tell you.

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, you are still Susan,

 

Susan Stone:

I you got to be me. Got to be good. But I do it in a different way.

You just lead you there. Yes. And so therefore, when the conclusion comes, it's not as much of a shock. And I learned skills from you. I learned it from you.

 

Kristina Supler:

Oh, thank you.

 

Susan Stone:

Well, remember that commercial on drugs?

 

Kristina Supler:

This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs?

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah. The kid goes. Where did you learn that for the parent?

I learned it from you.

 

Kristina Supler:

Oh, I had forgotten that part of the commercial

 

Susan Stone:

We’re giving good lines

 

Kristina Supler:

I think you know, something that I have learned from you is the importance of just like when there's bad news, when there's something scary or something you're dreading, just hit it head on. Just deal with it. Like, okay, let's pick up the phone, let's make the call.

Let's have the meeting with the client. Let's be direct. Because, you know, in reality, like the bad thing, it's not going to go away.

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, I live by the motto. The only way out of hell is through. And I think that defines our relationship is that we walk through hell for our clients. We walk through hell every day and we do it together.So thank you.

 

Kristina Supler:

Thanks, listeners. And Susan, thank you for being you.

 

Susan Stone:

You're welcome. It's really dunking. It's dunking. No, it's not. bye, everyone.

 

Kristina Supler:

Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle at Stones hoopla and for more resources, visit us online at Student Defense, Dot.com.Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.

 

In this week's episode of 'Real Talk,' Susan and Kristina dive deep into the topic of bullying. Discovering that your child is either being bullied or is the one doing the bullying can be incredibly challenging for parents. However, it's crucial to be informed. Join us in this episode to learn about the necessary steps you should take, the responsibilities schools have, and how you, as a parent, can ensure your child is protected. Tune in for valuable insights and practical advice.

LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

https://studentdefense.kjk.com/

https://www.instagram.com/stonesupler/ 

TRANSCRIPT:

Susan Stone: 

Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.

 

Susan Stone:

Well, good morning. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Good morning, my friend. 

 

Susan Stone:

Gosh, I don't know about you, but I'm exhausted. I’m just so tired. Every bone in my body feels tired. 

 

Kristina Supler:

It's funny you say that, because this morning, for the first time in an unknown eternity, my alarm went off to go to the gym, and I chose not to get up. I went back to bed and then another hour and a half to sleep.

 

Susan Stone:

I've had a lot of those mornings and I'm wondering what's contributing to the exhaustion. Any ideas on your part? I just think it's we're really busy. 

 

Kristina Supler:

We've had a busy January. We've had a lot of hearings. We have a lot of tough cases that I think we both really care about. And, you know, our work is it's not work that you can do if you don't care. You know, I mean, what do you think? 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, You know, I try very hard and I know you do to to separate work from home because our family does. Yeah, but I take it home. I carry it in my heart. I carry every client in my heart. And it's hard. 

 

Kristina Supler:

It's hard to turn off your brain at night and stop thinking about these really significant issues that, you know, we've spent hours all day sorting through. But then you go home and, you know, my children are younger, obviously, as you know, I'm in mom mode cooking dinner and helping with homework. And last night we were making cookies for a school presentation on Friday, and it was kind of like, my gosh, the last thing I want to do, but you have to do it.

 

Susan Stone:

You've got to do it. And I know that I worked last night after I made dinner and I just was losing patience for the client and it was more just fatigue on my part.

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah. 

 

Susan Stone:

So I need to recharge and so do you. What do you do to recharge? 

 

Kristina Supler:

that's a good question, because it can be a couple of different things.

For me, sometimes it's just having a weekend that's unscheduled, you know, not having a million activities, but then also sleep and exercise and just sort of having some time for myself and not feeling like I'm running around all weekend, you know, taking care of other people. But I mean, what about you? 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, I don't know. I, I don't know.

I keep thinking about it. It's a moving needle. But one of the things I do know is that we do let work move into our home space, and it keeps me up in the middle of the night. So I got to get better at that. And if any of you listeners are out there and have some ideas and yes, I already do practice yoga and healthy.

 

Kristina Supler:

 mindfulness, 

 

Susan Stone:

I've got that mindfulness.But you know what's been coming in a lot and I just thought we talk about it. We're getting a lot of calls about bullying again.

 

Kristina Supler:

 We are. And we get those cases and those calls, I should say, all the time. I mean, every year. But I do feel like in January there's always a bit of an uptick in bullying, say, issues.

And it's really for students of all ages, wouldn't you agree? 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah. I wonder if you think it has anything to do with the crappy weather.

 

Kristina Supler:

I hadn't thought of that. maybe we're in Cleveland and it was like literally zero a couple of weeks ago, and no one's outside moving around. Everyone's cooped up in homes. That could be a thought.

Susan Stone:

Yeah, it could be. But so the questions that come in is, if your child's accused of being the bully, how can you help defend my child? If your kid is bullied, what can I do? How do I stop it? Do have a lawsuit? There's a lot of issues related that you would call an attorney for if your child's involved in bullying.

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah, I mean, and I think that so often in these initial meetings when we're meeting with parents and children alike, you know, one of the first questions we get is, should I sent my kid to school tomorrow? Should I put my kid out of the school? And it's like, okay, we got to deal with this one step at a time.

We got a lot to unpack here, but you know, there's not a one size fits all answer. I would say in any of the cases.

 

Susan Stone:

 I have a personal question. Were you ever bullied?

 

Kristina Supler:

 Wow. 

 

Susan Stone:

did I touch a personal nerve 

 

Kristina Supler:

or was I a bully 

 

Susan Stone:

or were you the bully? Yeah, 

 

Kristina Supler:

I sincere bully believe I was not a bully.

 

Susan Stone:

Everybody thinks there not the bully 

 

Kristina Supler:

will be someone out there who feels who feels otherwise. Who, you know, I ran with in fifth grade, but I. I don't think I was. But, you know, 

 

Susan Stone:

We’ll find out 

 

Kristina Supler:

The universe  has a way of telling us these things, right? 

 

Susan Stone:

wow. We're going to get an email from someone to you sure hear about you bullied me in the fifth grade.

 

Kristina Supler:

I this does remind me. I had it's funny, I was saying fifth grade. I had a personal variance that that that deeply scarred me and is still with me to this day. I still carry it with me 

 

Susan Stone:

is it juicy. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, I mean, at the time it was. Yes, yes, yes, yes. 

 

Susan Stone:

Do share come on I want to know

 

Kristina Supler:

.I had a group of friends.

 

Susan Stone:

Were they friends or quote friends? 

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, I mean, friends in the way that anyone's friends during adolescence that, you know, one day, one day you're the coolest kid in school and then the next day no one will talk to you for no reason, and you're not really sure why. But then 48 hours later, you're back on top. So I had a group of girlfriends who I did view as my friends.

I thought we were true friends. Now, in hindsight, you know, what was the quality of the relationship? That's something I would like to have 

 

Susan Stone:

Are you still friends with them now.

 

Kristina Supler:

No,

 

Susan Stone:

 okay, then they weren't friends. 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah, no, no contact. Having contact since, I don't know, 30 years ago. But there there was a boy I had a crush on and my friends convinced the boy to ask me out.

 

Susan Stone:

Now, what The first of all was the boy's name. Come on, Dish. 

 

Kristina Supler:

The boy's name was Brad.

 

Susan Stone:

Okay, So did Brad actually in fifth grade ask you out to pizza or what did that even mean? At that age 

 

Kristina Supler:

That ended well, that's it. Yeah. What? What did it mean? I'm still asking myself that, but I assure you, it was very significant at the time.

We were. We were boyfriend girlfriend. I don't know. Like, we didn't we didn't go anywhere. We didn't meet in public. We this was obviously pre cell phones and social media. 

 

So I supposed dating someone was like an eight minute phone call at 7 p.m. before your parents needed the phone because this was also before you know, people have like multiple lines in their house.

And I was like, listen, my house. We were all sharing one phone. 

 

Susan Stone:

And so multiple lines in the stone house, I assure you no 

 

Kristina Supler:

it it's hot, hot competition in my house to get on the phone in the evening. So at any rate, I liked this boy Brad. And one day out of nowhere, he realized that he, too, like me, wanted me to be his girlfriend.

 

Susan Stone:

So this is not a sad story. This is awesome. 

 

Kristina Supler:

but wait, there's more. So I am just over the moon thinking, you know, I'm like, Wow, this is. 

 

Susan Stone:

It's Brad. Brad. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, you'll always have or not. Fast forward, I don't know if it was two days later, three days later, I don't know a certain period of time passed and I'm in gym class and I find out that Brad Shortbread asked me out, but it was really like on a dare or like it was in concerted effort with these like, plans with my friends.

 

And really it was just to humiliate me. And of course, I found all of this out. And I mean, girl, I was crying hysterically. I ran out of gym class. I was crushed because the humiliation and the worst part about it wasn't just okay, it was joke. Brad doesn't like me. Like, okay, you know, the betrayal. The betrayal that I everyone else had this joke.

 

I was on the outside. Everyone else knew what was going on. They were talking about me and I wasn't, you know, it was just. Yeah, the betrayal, the devastation, the pain.

 

Susan Stone:

Did you go to school the next day? 

 

Kristina Supler:

Girl? Are you kidding me? My parents were like, you know, get over it go back to school. You’re fine

 

Susan Stone:

That was my parents. For sure 

 

Kristina Supler:

There is no cadwelding you know, let's talk about this.

How does that make you feel that? No, no, none of that. 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, I didn't have that either.

 

Kristina Supler:

 Catholic grade school. So, you know, back in the day, Catholic grade school. I mean, I will say that the teachers were I don't know, they seemed to handle it like recognize how cruel it was. But, you know, the next day, like no one was checking in with me.

There were no school psychologists making sure things were fine. I mean, they just they didn't do that. 

 

Susan Stone:

This might explain a lot about you. just give me insight 

 

Kristina Supler:

I’m just sharing  my vulnerability with our listeners?

 

Susan Stone:

 And I just want you to know how special that is, because Supler is a tough cat and she doesn't really share a lot.

So thanks for sharing. supler, But I want to know what's Brad up to ?

 

Kristina Supler:

what? So funny thing I have not ever cyber stalked Brad or really anyone from that period of time in my life. But one day I was driving down the street and I walked past an office and I saw his name and I was like, my gosh, here he is.

He's alive and maybe well. And it just it brought back all these memories. And it's funny. I mean, literally, this was I don't even know how many years ago, but I saw the name and it immediately triggered the memory of my mortification and humiliation of the whole my friends and this cruel joke.

 

Susan Stone:

 Well, I have two things to say.One, Brad, 

 

Kristina Supler:

your loss. 

 

Susan Stone:

Your loss. You're a total loser. And two, to those girls, they lose even more. And I win, 

 

Kristina Supler:

Aww thank you. Get lawyerly . Let's talk bullying in a in the legal sense. 

 

Susan Stone:

So first of all, let's unpack the definition of bullying because not all acts of unkindness amount to bullying. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Someone being mean to your kid.

It's so hard. It's so hard because I know, like as a parent, there is nothing. Would you agree Nothing cuts you more than watching your children suffer and feel, you know, excluded or hurt or someone be unkind to them. I mean, that is it's awful. 

 

Susan Stone:

Only reason we can laugh about the Brad story is because it occurred many, many years ago and you're over it and it's you.But if it were, your daughter it wouldn’t  be funny. 

 

Kristina Supler:

No. Now, that's exactly right. And it's it's hard. I think I struggle when we, you know, get inquiries from people and parents share these horrible stories and the you know, my child's being bullied. My child's being bullied. I must have a really powerful lawsuit. Help me help me. And and it's it's hard when you say that sometimes sort of have to say to them, like, wow, that's awful. That’s so terrible. Your child must feel terrible. My heart goes out to you. But you don't have a lot of your 

 

Susan Stone:

occasional teasing, not bullying. It's going to be severe, and it's got to be persistent, and it's got to be pervasive. And it can also be personal. Or todays cyber. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah, I mean, and so much of what we see is involves online social media, communication, group chats, things like that. But I mean, I think the key for our listeners in terms of like, how do you identify bullying? Because of course every state and school code of conduct has different definitions. I mean, of course there's similar themes in all of it, but there can be slightly different definitions. But, you know, again, it's got to be sort of recurring and ongoing and isolated incidents certainly could be a basis for a student or students violating school code of conduct.But I don't know if one incident,

 

Susan Stone:

 one unkind word, does not amount to bullying, but a nine unkind word making fun of someone day after day after day after day. That's consistency is one of the identifiers for bullying. 

 

Kristina Supler:

What would you say in terms of whether there has to be like physical or emotional harm or some sort of threats? I mean, 

 

Susan Stone:

Well, certainly if you threaten someone that would amount to bullying, give me your lunch money or I will beat you up. I think that is bullying today 

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. So what should be what are your thoughts about the issue of location? 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah. So it's much easier to prove bullying if it happened at school because then it falls under what I would call the jurisdiction of the school.

However, if there is off campus bullying and it impacts your child's ability to perform at school, I think there's an argument that the school's got to get involved. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah, so I know that we not too long ago we had a situation involving some social media online communication and some was at school and some wasn't. And, you know, we were sort of I remember passing through and wrestling with, okay, what is the, you know, in lawyer speak, the jurisdictional analysis in terms of what can the school do when stuff maybe happens at home in the evenings on personal devices, not school issued devices, 

 

Susan Stone:

but it's complicated.

 

Kristina Supler:

It's complicated. And kids show up at school the next day and there's still the fallout which you know again I'm lawyer speak for impact on education. You're right it's it's tough to know when I would say on the school side sometimes you know in fairness to our educators it's hard for them to know as well where that line is.

 

Susan Stone:

Well, and you'd think about the Supreme Court case of Brandy Lovie, the cheerleader. You're a lot. 

 

Kristina Supler:

 tell our listeners about that because key case and I'm guessing many people out there in podcast world don't know what it is 

 

Susan Stone:

yeah, Brandy didn't make the cheerleading team 

 

Kristina Supler:

poor brandy

 

Susan Stone:

poor brandy and I couldn't be a cheerleader. 

 

Kristina Supler:

I can't even do a cartwheel.

 

Susan Stone:

I can't do a split up. 

 

Kristina Supler:

That's like literally not even up for discussion. I can't do that.

 

Susan Stone:

 And it just sounds awful. But that's why we're lawyers. So Brandy didn't make the team, and she posted some nasty comments about the coaches online and they disciplined her and they went all the way up to SCOTUS and there was First Amendment protection.

I think that's what schools wrestle and with. But remember, that only applies to public schools where you have a First Amendment freedom of speech to talk about things, but certain things are absolutely not protected. And we've talked about that in prior podcast. 

 

Kristina Supler:

And I'm going to drop a little bit of legal knowledge for some of our listeners out there and 

 

Susan Stone:

drop away.

 

Kristina Supler:

Many find this surprising, but at a private school, at a private school on their campus, you don't have full First Amendment rights. And so, you know, schools are allowed to limit and respond to and some might say restrained speech. 

 

Susan Stone:

Correct. And that goes by their honor code and their policy. But I think it's universal that bullying someone based on their appearance, their race, their religion, their ethnicity, a disability will always be subject to discipline.

 

Kristina Supler:

Absolutely. And I would say for poor parents, if you come to learn that your child is experiencing, you know, negative, hostile treatment by peers or staff, I mean, let's face it, that is something that should be immediately, immediately reported to the school and for schools. It's not even a close call school. Need to jump on that right away.

 

Susan Stone:

Speaking of reporting, a lot of times we find out from parents they want to immediately sue the school for not bullying. And then I say, well, did you put the school on notice? Do they know about it 

 

Kristina Supler:

the old notice requirement? Yeah. So let's unpack that for our parent listeners out there. notice Look, why is why is known as so important for schools Like what?

What does that have to do in relation to about whether there might be a lawsuit or not? 

 

Susan Stone:

Well, knock the nerd out again, 

 

Kristina Supler:

go nerd away. 

 

Susan Stone:

Go observe versus Lago Vista Independent School District that you cannot make a school district liable for something that they don't know about. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Make sense to me. I mean, some might say it's a tricky legal requirement, but if you think about it in a very practical level, if schools aren't clearly on notice about something, how can they fix it?

But let me so let's take that a step further. What about and say, well, teachers saw it happen. They saw my child, you know, sat in the hallway. How could they not know? 

 

Susan Stone:

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But if it's not in writing, it didn't happen, then you know that. 

 

Kristina Supler:

There you go. There you go. And that's why it's important for I mean, look, not every single piece of communication needs to be in writing, but it's things you know, about misconduct, mistreatment.

Send an email to the school. Nothing wrong with. 

 

Susan Stone:

I love documenting anything that you think you're going to want to rely on later as a piece of evidence and to prevent miscommunication, we often give advice, and I'd like to pingpong our common words of advice for parents, and I'll start the ping. Number one, put the school on notice and ask for an investigation.

 

Kristina Supler:

Follow up. If you don't get a response and push for something to be done to keep your kids safe. 

Susan Stone:

Number two in While an investigation is pending, ask for interim measures. What does that mean?

 

Kristina Supler:

 Well, an easy one that comes to mind is some sort of no contact or stay away. Order. 

 

Susan Stone:

Okay, Now separate the kids. 

 

Kristina Supler:

Maybe ask, for instance, for schedules to be changed, different lunch periods, maybe some sort of restrictions or regulations for who goes where at recess, on the playground, things like that.

 

Susan Stone:

And the bus. the bus, 

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah. I'm so glad you said that. We have a lot of matters where things are okay during the day and then kids get on the bus and everything rapidly falls apart. 

 

Susan Stone:

Number three, ask the school to provide mental health support services if your child's suffering. 

 

Kristina Supler:

And it's important, I would say that families really avail themselves to those services.

Sometimes there can be a hesitation to take advantage of school services, but they're there. Use them. And particularly now, you know, this is such a cliche to say post-COVID, post-COVID, but truly there is such a shortage of available, readily available mental health services. And, you know, I know I think Susan, we here at least once a week in difficult I called the therapist and they can't take my kid.

You know my kid's in a waitlist. It's going to be six weeks before we get an appointment. If you're tired suffering, you can't wait that long.

 

Susan Stone:

 It's been really since COVID a struggle to get the mental health support for all those students who need that help. Last and this is self-serving, guys, I know it, but if you ever need doubt on how to handle things, consult a lawyer.

Kristina Supler:

That's right. We're here to support families in crisis, talk through the legal issues and really help kids. I mean, that is at the heart of our legal work. I think kids and using that label broadly, kids can be like 25 30 that the support students, 

 

Susan Stone:

you know, people think that just because you call a lawyer, we all sue. And while we do file lawsuits, that is one of our 

 

Kristina Supler:

we do we do 

 

Susan Stone:

we do a lot of other things like counseling and navigating and helping people through crisis.

So don't just think because you call a lawyer that you're going to be suing the district. Maybe the lawyer will help you nip the situation in the bud and get a better resolution quickly. 

 

Kristina Supler:

And that really, I think, is a win, you know, because court, let's face it, though, we're our lawyers and go to court. Let's face it, it's not for everyone, that's for sure.

And certainly it takes a toll on families and kids. But I think this was a good, good talk today. 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, And I have to say something. You girls who did that to my partner, Kristina Supler, if I ever meet you, I am going to be watching you and Brad. You missed out. 

 

Kristina Supler:

That's right. Look at me now. 

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah all, This is more.

 

Kristina Supler:

Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle at Stones hoopla and for more resources, visit us online at Student Defense, Dot.com.

Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.

 

In this week's episode of 'Real Talk,' Susan and Kristina take on the daunting task of deciphering the ever-changing slang of today's kids. From navigating linguistic rollercoasters to tackling new words and phrases that pop up daily, they show that staying in the know is not just essential but also a fun challenge. Join them for some laughs and linguistic acrobatics as they take on today’s latest trends.

TRANSCRIPT:

Susan Stone:

Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.

Have a fun podcast today, Supler.

 

Kristina Supler:

What are we talking about?

 

Susan Stone:

We are going to talk about decoding teen slang and trends.

 

Kristina Supler:

Oooo, fun, I like it.

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah. Before we launch into our podcast today, can I just say it is so flipping cold out.

 

Kristina Supler:

Oh my gosh. It is freezing out. To our listeners out there, We are in Cleveland where it's a balmy four degrees or one degree, depending upon the device you look at, and it is just frigid.

 

Susan Stone:

Okay, So hubby last night noted that there are no terms for cold and it's been called an ‘arctic blast’. You ever thought that we were experiencing… 

 

Kristina Supler:

I feel like I've heard like local weather people use different iterations of Arctic blast. Arctic freeze. I don't know.

 

Susan Stone:

All I know is I was trying to walk the dogs yesterday and it was truly a miserable experience for me and the dogs. They didn't even want to go out and go to the bathroom. It was awful.

 

Kristina Supler:

Funny, I had the same experience this morning when I took my two dogs out. It was like quick rush, take your business and get back inside. But even inside, Freezing. Freezing, freezing, freezing.

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, and didn’t you have… What happened with your uh… was it your, was it your water heater? Your power? What happened this weekend?

 

Kristina Supler:

 So, Cleveland got a big storm over the weekend and yeah, I didn't have power for 24 hours so I was, we were away. It's fortunate that we were away but it was a little nerve racking in terms of, I don't know, bad things happening in the house. Fortunately, my husband informed me that power has no impact on our heating system because we have steam.

I didn't really know. Yes, but yeah, food in the fridge, all those fun issues that Midwesterners deal with, so on and so forth. But here we are today and hopefully we've got something light and funny that can warm things up.

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah. You know what we did yesterday? I took my youngest and we went and saw Mean Girls.

 

Kristina Supler:

Oh I read about the like re- uh, relaunch of that movie. I’ve never seen it. Tell me about it.

 

Susan Stone:

Well, I love the original. And the original was amazing. Rachel McAdams, Lindsay Lohan,

 

Kristina Supler:

I was gonna say isn’t Lindsay Lohan in it. That's. Yeah, the two comes to mind.

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah. And that was one of her. And she's in the remake.

 

Kristina Supler:

How’s she looking these days?

 

Susan Stone:

She's looking gorgeous.

 

Kristina Supler:

Really, good! Good.

 

Susan Stone:

Shout out to you, Lindsay. You are aging fine. But I will say, Tori, my 18 year old, did not like the movie at all.

 

Kristina Supler:

Really? Why? Now, did she had she seen the original or. No?

 

Susan Stone:

 No, she had. She just thought.

 

Kristina Supler:

the remake was not hitting her right?

 

Susan Stone:

No. She thought it was insulting to her intelligence.

 

Kristina Supler:

Why is that?

 

Susan Stone:

Well, she felt like it didn't capture the original flavor of bullying.

And she thought bullying is such an important topic that they sort of made fun of it and made light of it and made it seem ridiculous.

 

Kristina Supler:

 So let me ask you, was there any, like redeeming message or takeaway for viewers of the movie? Any lessons to be learned?

 

Susan Stone:

I mean It was the same lesson be kind, be nice, blah, blah, blah. I'm not trying to put down.

 

Kristina Supler:

Sure that's and that's a good one, but it's a little basic.

 

Susan Stone:

But the way it was delivered, that's the word

 

Kristina Supler:

Basic.

 

Susan Stone:

 It was basic. Yeah. So, you know, I wanted to love it. I want it to because I love the original and I know there's now the musical and, you know I love me a Musical.

 

Kristina Supler:

You love a Musical.

 

Susan Stone:

Oh my gosh. I mean, there isn't a musical that I don’t rush and see.

 

Kristina Supler:

I think it's so funny that we're talking about this because I have to imagine while and I've experienced that, sometimes people think that as lawyers we’re, you know, reading the news and thinking about Supreme Court opinions and all these, you know, intellectual things, and here we are, “Hey, Supler I saw Mean Girls yesterday”.

 

 Susan Stone:

But on to our topic about the way kids talk and how language changes. So I was, I did a little research. Truthfully, I forgot the fun terms I used when I was in high school or were popular in the eighties.

 

Kristina Supler:

Okay, lay it on me.

 

 Susan Stone:

Okay. Ready?

 

Kristina Supler:

Ready.

 

Susan Stone:

Gag me with the spoon. Did you say that?

 

Kristina Supler:

 Never. No. I can honestly say no. I never said Gag me with a spoon.

 

Susan Stone:

Ready?

 

Kristina Supler:

Ready.

 

Susan Stone:

 Eat my shorts.

 

Kristina Supler:

Uh that, that I'm familiar with through one, Bart Simpson. You really said that? You said eat my shorts.

 

 Susan Stone:

I didn't, but others did.

 

Kristina Supler:

I just. What does is it really mean? Like, like.

 

Susan Stone:

Do you think it means Bug off? Maybe. I think that's what it means. Eat my shorts.

 

 Kristina Supler:

Okay.

 

Susan Stone:

And gnarly.

 

Kristina Supler:

Now, Now. Okay. Who doesn't know? Gnarly. Sure. I think gnarly still kind of with us. The West Coast vibe a bit. I don't know.

 

Susan Stone:

So, Let's talk about some of the terms. I didn't know that well. Proposed by our fine marketing department.

 

Kristina Supler:

Let me ask you, though, what's what generation were you? Are you?

 

Susan Stone:

I am the beginning of Gen X.

 

Kristina Supler:

Ohhhh.

 

Susan Stone:

Babies baby

 

Kristina Supler:

 Sure, sure, sure, sure.

 

Susan Stone:

Madonna spoke. You can't see me Voguing. Voguing, guys.

 

Kristina Supler:

Best music video ever. Ever! What's interesting about that is I think of myself as a Gen Xer, but actually, I shudder to admit this. I don't want to admit this, but I must. I am technically the beginning of millennials.

 

Susan Stone:

There is nothing about you that’s a Millennials

 

Kristina Supler:

I don't identify that way. I really see myself as a Gen Xer like the nineties vibe, but I guess according to the internet, according to Wikipedia or what have you, I'm technically a first year millennial.

 

Susan Stone:

That's interesting that I’m a Gen Xer. I was a latchkey kid, and for those of you who don't know what that is, my mom went to work and I had a, what was it, a shoestring with a key.

 

Kristina Supler:

You literally had a key on a shoestring.

 

Susan Stone:

I literally had a key on a shoestring.

 

Kristina Supler:

I didn't know that was a real thing.

 

Susan Stone:

That's why they called it ‘latchkey kids’ Supler. It's a real thing.

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, I have to confess, I grew up in a house that we never locked. I never had a key.

 

Susan Stone:

That's a beautiful thing.

 

Kristina Supler:

It actually is.

 

Susan Stone:

That’s a beautiful thing .And I was the MTV generation who didn't remember Tabatha Sorenson. So cute. And I was on MTV once.

 

 Kristina Supler:

No.

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, I danced.

 

Kristina Supler:

Tell me more.

 

Susan Stone:

There's not that much to tell.

 

Kristina Supler:

On the Grind? Were you on MTV on the Grind?

 

Susan Stone:

It was one of those shows, you literally waited in line and when they told you to dance, you danced. It's hilarious.

 

Kristina Supler:

But was it the Grind? Yes or no?

 

Susan Stone:

I don't think so.

 

Kristina Supler:

 Because I really hope that it was.

 

Susan Stone:

And my roommate in college had a picture of Ronald Reagan above her bed.

 

Kristina Supler:

(Laughing) What did she love him?

 

Susan Stone:

She loved him.

 

Kristina Supler:

Was she attracted to him?

 

Susan Stone:

 I don’t know Ronny was hot. Ronny was hot.

 

Kristina Supler:

Sensible citizen. Oh my God. Now that is the funniest thing.

 

Susan Stone:

Okay, guys Let’s talk about some words and then we can respond to what this generation is "saying. And I am going to mispronounce it, but ’gyat’.

 

Kristina Supler:

I, I just can't with this one. With this one, I just can't. I am told, so for all of our listeners out there, I've only recently come to learn this, this word, this phrase, and apparently it is a high compliment. It is a major, major compliment to give someone indicating that their derriere is large.

 

 Susan Stone:

Yeah. I asked my daughter, do you know what ‘gyat’ is? She’s just like ass. I'm like, okay.

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah. So I guess it rhymes with squat or bought

 

 Susan Stone:

or fiat.

 

Kristina Supler:

And then it can also be, I guess I'm told, an acronym for something about the backside being thick. I don't know.

 

Susan Stone:

 But I have to be honest, I've never heard it used in my house.

 

Kristina Supler:

I've never heard it used. I've never seen it. I mean, in our work representing students, we read a lot of text messages and social media posts. I've never even read it in a text, so I personally am very circumspect about this word and its use and popularity. I feel like a journalist or someone Internet writer out there just like made it up or heard one person use it and then said, oh parents, hey, you need to know this word. And it's really not a thing.

 

Susan Stone:

I don’t even like the way it sounds. But you know, you have a question for you. Why? When we read and we read thousands of text messages in our case, what's the point of Bruh B.R.U.H

 

Kristina Supler:

I wish I knew. I wish I knew. I've got nothing for you on that. And we see it literally every day and it's constant, It's constant. Like every other thing is ‘bruh’. And then the other question I have for you is ‘lol’, after everything, even after stuff that's not funny, you still put ‘lol bruh’. That you see a lot as well. I don't know. That is more with people, our clients who are a little bit older. It's not like high schoolers, but that I see all the time and I feel like it's just a habit because it's literally like on text where there's not even something funny said.

 

Susan Stone:

I don't get it, I don't get it. I agree.

 

Kristina Supler:

I think for parents, the key is… And parents out there, Please don't please don't say gyat.

I mean, that would just be mortifying to your child.

 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, you really will look like a total loser.

 

Kristina Supler:

Way to not mince your words.

 

Susan Stone:

I know. Okay, parents try it and then they'll tell you your kids that you're a total loser.

 

Kristina Supler:

 Yeah. No they won’t, they won't want to go in public with you.

 

Susan Stone:

Now, this is all from our marketing department, so shout out to Amanda for doing the research on this. But the next word is… 

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, hold on. Drum roll, please. For the 2023 word of the year.

 

Susan Stone

Rizz

 

Kristina Supler:

Susan, what does Rizz mean?

 

 Susan Stone

Charisma.

 

Kristina Supler:

Ohhhhh the ability to charm someone or woo someone. Now, have you ever So I have not heard my children use this. My kids are a little bit younger. What? You have a senior in high school?

Have you heard her use it?

 

Susan Stone

No, I've never heard her use Rizz, but I did. Again, just like I am curious her and she says it's more used in the negative, like she doesn't have Rizz.

 

Kristina Supler:

Oh. Okay. I guess I see it. I don't know. Some of these things. Truly. I feel like you're just, like, made into things for internet writers to launch off on. But we'll have to see if Rizz continues on to 2024.

 

Susan Stone

Don't think it's going to make it.

 

Kristina Supler:

 I'm inclined to agree. But let me ask you, though, 2024 word that's going to become, you know, plastered all over text messages. Do you think it'll be like a compliment, an insult, a rhetorical turn of phrase? What were you going with this?

 

Susan Stone

No clue, guys. I don't know.

 

Kristina Supler:

Come on bruh, come on bruh!

 

Susan Stone

But what I do know is that, you know, what's the point of this podcast is important, and it's because we don't want parents running around saying ‘Rizz’ and ‘Gyat, and  ‘Bruh’.

 

Kristina Supler:

Yes, let's be clear. We are not advocating for that on any level. We are talking about this though, because I think it's just important for parents to know what these things mean. So I don't know. For instance, you go snooping, you read your kids, you know, messages in the phone. It's sometimes you literally can't tell what they're talking about. And so it's important to know words and phrases.

 

Susan Stone

Well, on our case, I have to say I use the Urban Dictionary a lot.

 

Kristina Supler:

Oh yeah. I mean, I can't I can't deny having had to turn to it on more than one occasion. And also, I'll tell you what else I really am uninformed about and trying to do better with is emojis and what they mean.

 

Susan Stone

Oh those are hard.

 

Kristina Supler:

Those are hard. I mean, obviously, we know like happy, sad, so on and so forth, but some of them are very confusing to me. And again, we go through text in cases all the time and it's like literally have to Google what certain emojis mean.

 

Susan Stone

I even know, you know, about peaches and eggplant. You had to tell me.

 

Kristina Supler:

I was going to say, I definitely feel like I knew that.

 

 Susan Stone

But you did. But I went to you. And once it was explained, I kind of saw the Peach.

 

Kristina Supler:

 You saw the booty,

 

Susan Stone

I saw a tush, but it wasn't intuitive to me.

 

Kristina Supler:

Sure, sure. Well, and you have a very good vocabulary, so, you know, you're like pulling out your dictionary words, not Rizz, but, you know, the fancy dictionary words. And so

 

Susan Stone

I do I pride myself on that. And, you know, I like to think of myself as a reader.

 

Kristina Supler:

Sure. Me too. Me too.

 

Susan Stone

I started the new James McBride book. so good. Anyways, that's a sidetrack. Let's talk about one last topic of what's going on in Teen Trends, which is different. It's kind of like a redo from my gen. What is preppy?

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, I think we've come full circle with our mean girls theme and like redos, re- rehashing something out because preppy is back and alive full well now and it's interesting

 

Susan Stone

It is different.

 

Kristina Supler:

It is different, and I see preppy now this I have familiarity with through my daughter and her friends. And back in my day, growing up, when I thought I was a Gen Xer, but apparently I'm not heartbroken. Preppy was like Lacoste and you had your Gap, Argyle, V-neck Sweaters and…

 

Susan Stone

The Gap, the Izod, with the collar turned up.

 

Kristina Supler:

Pop the collar, baby.

 

Susan Stone

Pop the collar and Bermuda backs.

 

Kristina Supler:

Oh no, I don't know what that is.

 

Susan Stone

They were these cute little purses where you could change the outer side and little button them on there. They’re cute.

 

Kristina Supler:

Penny loafers, suede bath box. Do you remember those? That was hot in Catholic grade schools.

 

Susan Stone

I didn't go to Catholic grade school, but I know you did. But yeah, preppy was the and the preppy handbook that was really big.

 

Kristina Supler:

I do not know what that is.

 

Susan Stone

It was a book on how to be preppy. I mean, it was a how to, but today it seems very expensive, what preppy is.

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah. Well I mean I guess it probably was back in the day as well with, you know, buying your Lacoste shirt and whatnot. But so for the youngsters now, it's interesting. It's sort of I would say it's like a lifestyle. It's a look and a lifestyle.

 

Susan Stone

Is it like Goop, a lifestyle brand?

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah, I mean Goop is, kind of in a way. But Goop is for what middle aged women be. So think lots of pink and…

 

Susan Stone

Like Barbie pink?

 

Kristina Supler:

Yes, Barbie pink. But before it was a thing. Before Barbie was the Barbie remake. Sure. Lululemon, there's no point getting dressed if you don't have on Lululemon.

 

Susan Stone

But see I think of Lululemon as middle age housewife.

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, you think of it athleisure.

 

Susan Stone

 I do.

 

Kristina Supler:

And I do too, actually. But for the young ones out there, it's just what you wear. It's what you do. You always have your water bottle you're carrying around your Stanley thing. But that's not like, I don't know, I, I funny enough, I was doing some reading the other day and came across something on like how Stanley got big and it was a few like Instagram accounts that really made Stanley, like become a huge, huge thing more recently

 

Susan Stone

That Laneige…

 

Kristina Supler:

Lip balm?

 

Susan Stone

Yeah!

 

Kristina Supler:

 Lip Mask? Yup.

 

Susan Stone

 My daughter’s

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah.

 

Susan Stone

The oldest one. Hey, Alex bought it for me and I have say, shout out to Laneige epically now in this bad cold weather.

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah.

 

Susan Stone

I really like it. Oh my gosh. I meant to ask you, you know how I bought you. Just as a you're the best business partner in the world, Jones Road Balm?

 

Kristina Supler:

Yes.

 

 Susan Stone

I am loving it this winter. Do you notice I have a little on?

 

Kristina Supler:

 A little a little subtle glow.

 

Susan Stone

a little subtle glow. But it does keep you moisturized in this weather. So I bought you that gift. Are you using it? I'm putting you on the spot.

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, now that it's cold out, I might, I might bring it back in the summer. It just. It didn't do me right. But now it might be time. Now that my skin's dryer. I will tell you another example of, like, the penultimate preppy brand for girls now is the Aviator Nation sweat wear. And I so I actually, coincidentally enough this weekend was driving and listen to the how I built this podcast.

 

Susan Stone

I love that guy, Raz.

 

Kristina Supler:

Who doesn’t, who doesn’t!

 

Susan Stone

Shout out to him too.

 

Kristina Supler:

And they had on the founder of Aviator Nation who, by the way, her brother was the founder of Tom's. Think about that family gene pool. Isn't that interesting? But Aviator Nation is essentially like very high-end sweat- sweatshirts, sweat pants, so on and so forth, known for like applique, essentially sewing on stripes of things like that.

 

Susan Stone

I'm looking at it on a website because I didn't know about it. I don't get it.

 

Kristina Supler:

Well, you know, it's just like it's a thing. What makes the sweatshirt worth $150? I couldn't really tell you, but kids want it. Parents are paying for it.

 

Susan Stone

I don't get it.

 

Kristina Supler:

I think it's like a status thing, too. But it's supposed to be very like colorful. And again, it's a lifestyle. It's an aspirational brand. And the young ones are all about it now. So I don't know that these are kind of like the key, I shouldn't say the key, but brands that come to my mind in terms of like, what the tweens now or viewing is like preppy and what is preppy and skin care. They're very they're very intense in skin care

 

Susan Stone

Oh my gosh and I think that's a good thing.

 

Kristina Supler:

 Sure, why not?

 

Susan Stone

I think that establishes really good lifelong habits. But I got to share something. My, in my day, it was either Gloria Vanderbilt or Jordache jeans.

 

Kristina Supler:

Oh yeah.

 

Susan Stone

I've got to tell you, my mother would not buy them for me. We were out of my family's budget and I remember crying over it

 

Kristina Supler:

in my day. It was Guess jeans.

 

Susan Stone

Yeah, but.

 

Kristina Supler:

But you wanted the Gloria Vanderbilt pencil pouch. That was like the hot item at my school.

 

Susan Stone

My parents didn't cater to that.

 

Kristina Supler:

Mine didn't really. But like, my mother understood why it was important to us. And so we always had to like we had chores and allowance and we had to save our money and then go buy it ourselves.

 

Susan Stone

So yeah. And you know what? I really try not to capitulate and rush out to every trend.

 

Kristina Supler:

Sure. No, I think that and that actually by the way, I think that is those are words of wisdom for listeners of any age, because a trend is just that, a trend here today, gone tomorrow. And so, I mean, if you're going to jump on board with the trend, go for it. But I wouldn't, you know, do so in an expensive way.

 

Susan Stone

No, no. Because, you know, we know what that creates.

 

Kristina Supler:

And parents, we all know here today, gone tomorrow in terms of what our kids are interested in, what they want. So what they're saying. Right.

 

Susan Stone

And what they're saying. So for us, it's a necessity. We can't get, do our job unless we can read their texts.

 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah, I mean, kidding aside, of course, this was obviously we were being light with the topic. But truly, there are often times in many cases where we're going through social media communication and there's text back and forth and they're really important. There, you know, relevant to the case and who did what, said what, when, where, so on and so forth. And we need to understand what's being said. And we don't always.

 

Susan Stone

Okay, bruh.

 

Kristina Supler:

Thank you, bruh. LOL. Until next time.

Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle at Stones hoopla and for more resources, visit us online at Student Defense, Dot.com.

Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.

Welcome to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina! In this episode, we’ll dive into the importance of addressing uncomfortable topics with your children. Join us as we explore why these difficult conversations are crucial for your child's well-being and navigating life's challenges. Gain practical tips on addressing sensitive subjects, fostering open communication, and dive into real-life situations drawn from our cases and personal experiences with our own children.

LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

•  https://studentdefense.kjk.com/
•  https://www.instagram.com/stonesupler/
• https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807

TRANSCRIPT:

Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina super. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.

 

Susan Stone: Okay. This is Martin Luther King Day, and we're in our new studio. What do you think about our new digs? Miss Supluar. 

 

Kristina Supler: I like it. Fix some adjustment. But I. I actually. I think it's nice. It's cozy. It's more intimate.

 

Susan Stone: that is interesting. Well, hopefully not as interesting as our topic today, which is parenting through tough conversation. Anything recent you want to share from the old simpler house? 

 

Kristina Supler: Funny you should ask. So recently we had a little tough conversation parenting moment in my household with my daughter and some Netflix content. Let me tell you, these these parent settings and these accounts, number one parent listeners out there, if you don't know how to do that and check for content and age-appropriate restrictions, please do so.

Very important because if you don't, your child has unfettered access to everything, and I learned that on Netflix. If you don't put on like parental controls and kids are watching like they can access NC 17 material, there's some steamy stuff on there. 

 

Susan Stone: You know what? I had no idea, but I want to know where to find that steamy material. (Laughing) Kidding 

 

Kristina Supler: After a long day of work, Susan's going home and firing up the Netflix.

 

Susan Stone:  But my kids are older, so I don’t have to worry about it.

 

Kristina Supler: So, you can do that. That's right. That's right. But yes, there are these settings. Make sure you have you know, how they work, and they're turned on and fired up and good to go. But so, it was brought to my attention by, I'll just say, a family member 

 

Susan Stone: a family member

 

Kristina Supler: that said, hey, you might want to give an eye towards, you know, what your daughter's looking at. And I said, my gosh, thank you for telling me. Because I think it's important to not always say, my child would never do that. You have to sort of be open to the possibility of your kid doing anything. 

 

Susan Stone: Well, Supler considering you are a coauthor on a book saying, yes, your kid, it would be slightly hypocritical if you didn't think your own kid could do something.

 

Kristina Supler: Indeed, indeed. And to our listeners out there, check out. Yes, your kid available at all. Booksellers 

 

Susan Stone: I did not mean for that to be a plug.

 

Kristina Supler: no no.

 

Susan Stone: But I was topical.

 

Kristina Supler: I had to seize the moment. So at any rate, I said, Well, let me do some digging and you know, you like to call me investigators Suplar

 

Susan Stone: Oh my gosh.For the listeners out there, nobody and I mean nobody can get to the bottom of different facts. Like my law partner Kristina Suplesr. So, what did you do? 

 

Kristina Supler: Well, so I start doing a little a little digging just late light investigation. Let's say I call my husband and loop him in to what's before us. I get his thoughts.

And I was like, you know, before before having that parent child moment, I want to get my own facts right so that I know. So I sort of like a little, I want to say test, but I suppose it is test like is my is my when I confront my daughter, will she be truthful with me or not?

So that you know, I know where to go with the conversation. So we did some investigating and digging that my husband got all in on it and like for hours were testing iteration of what you can and can't do with these shows and what record shows up in this and that. Just to know, you know, what what actually happened, it is best we could. Of course. And it was interesting because my daughter eventually had a conversation. She said, Mom, I wasn't watching those shows.

 

Susan Stone: And is it true?

 

Kristina Supler:  I went through that viewing history up, down, left and right. You can download spreadsheets. We did all these simulated tests and delete history. 

 

Susan Stone: Tacky for me, way too tacky. 

 

Kristina Supler: The shows weren't there, so I don't know if look, we don't know what happened and who did what, but what I do know is that I saw no evidence that my daughter did what she was accused of doing.

 

Susan Stone: So, Not your kid,

 

Kristina Supler:  not my kid, fortunately. But that is not to say that it could never be my child. And I actually think you and I are both like very real about that possibility. That notwithstanding what we do for a living in conversations we have at home, things still happen. 

 

Susan Stone: Yeah, we have difficult conversations with our clients every day.

 

Kristina Supler: Every day.

 

Susan Stone: And it is a skill.

 

Kristina Supler:  absolutely. And I would say it's a skill that requires cultivation and over time it's a skill you improve with experience, which is true of most things, but tough conversations, it's you get better at having them, but they don't ever really get easier.

 

Susan Stone:  It's not fun. But here's the deal. In today's day and age, what we're finding is that having tough conversations with your kids is more important.

And at the same time, we're seeing a lot of conflict avoidance and it's creating bigger issues.

Kristina Supler: I totally agree. I totally agree. And I will tell you, from our perspective as lawyers, of course, we want to help all of our clients and get the best outcome possible. But, you know, success. We arrest a lot. What's your success rate?

And we sort of often say, well, you know, it's relative because every case is different. And the reality is, is that you can't always have a perfect outcome in every case. But the cases that hurt the most are the ones where we look at each other and we're like, this didn't have to happen this way. 

 

Susan Stone: I agree. And when we talk to parents about why, why have the tough conversation? Because let's face it, nobody likes to confront their kid. Nobody wants to cause an argument. 

 

Kristina Supler: No.

 

Susan Stone:  it's a fight. 

 

Kristina Supler: No, you want to have nice, fun conversations about what are you getting for dinner and what's going on at school. But the reality is these tough conversations are so important because really, at any age, they're essential for helping, I think, keep your child safe, even when your child's a young adult.

 

Susan Stone: What I find is even when you're getting pushback from a particular child, they still hear you. 

 

Kristina Supler: Oh absolutely. I totally agree. I totally agree. They hear you. And I think there's also just a component of sort of communicating to your child that you care and, you know, whether it's just that you want to see the best for them in all ways and it's okay to make mistakes.

It's okay to be curious, but you just have to be smart about the choices you're making here.

 

Susan Stone:  You know what? Kids need to know where their parents stand on issues. 

 

Kristina Supler: I totally agree. I totally agree. And, you know, that's a tough one in this day and age, because I think that, you know, we're in a country that's so divided and there's all these political issues, cultural issues, religious issues.I mean, you name it every day. There's some like very hot ticket controversial thing on the news. But I think it's so important as our children are being, you know, bombarded with content from tick tock and who knows where else that they know what their parents think that they know. You're like my mom and dad say that's important or my mom and dad or say that that's really dangerous, that it's just giving some structure to your kids.

 

Susan Stone: Talk about how to have a conversation, because you know what we know how students behave when confronted and we're not going to sell you the bull, that it's going to go swimming. This isn't a sitcom. Life is not a sitcom. So you might have pushback. You may have a temper tantrum. I've heard even of situations where things have gotten physical between parent and child. Things can go really wrong.

 

Kristina Supler: Oh I believe it.

 

Susan Stone:  Yeah, 

 

Kristina Supler: I believe it. Especially with teens. And when there's hormones and angst and rage about life being unfair, I absolutely. 

 

Susan Stone: So, when you're going to have a conversation. I think first time in place. 

 

Kristina Supler: Yes. So what what do you think? What are your preferred times and places? 

 

Susan Stone: It's hard. I at first thing, I'm a working mom, 

 

Kristina Supler: Mhmmm

 

Susan Stone: so I can't do after school. That's not realistic for me.

 

Kristina Supler:  Right.

 

Susan Stone:  Ideally, that really is the best time, right when they get home from school. 

 

Kristina Supler: Well, depending on age though, I don't know if your kids are younger. If they're older, they probably have sports or job or other stuff after school. But I hear you. 

 

Susan Stone: I like where they're a captive audience. So ideally, again, the car is a great place because where are they going to go?

 

Kristina Supler: I agree with that. The car is a great place. We I drive my kids to school in the morning and sometimes it's a good opportunity for a quick check in the short drive, but a quick check in 

 

Susan Stone: and nothing wrong with that. But again, I now have older kids. Well, my I have two grown kids and one left, but so I don't really get the ones they start driving. You're not going to get more. I think at night you just pop in their room, knock on the door, come in and you have to dive, dig in. And and it's got to be organic sometimes, too, as things come up that you hear about, whether it's bullying or peer pressure, drugs, mental health, sexting, I mean, that topics are endless.

 

Kristina Supler: So let's do a hypothetical.

 

Susan Stone:  Sure. 

 

Kristina Supler: You get a question? Yeah. There's there's buzz about sexting in your child's school. Let's keep this high school. You're hearing rumors from other parents, maybe like, I don't know, some online parent group, because actually I learn a lot in those parent groups online. And there's talk about nude images going around the school. Would you bring that up? And like, how would you go about having a conversation to make sure that it's understood that sexting is a no no? 

 

Susan Stone: Well, that could be brought up at the dinner table because that's a general conversation. I don't consider that a difficult conversation just because it's a racy topic like vaping or marijuana use. To me, that's not difficult to recognize that I'm a little different when I think of a difficult conversation. I think you are confronting your child about something 

 

Kristina Supler: Mhmmm

 

Susan Stone: you suspect they're doing. Yeah, general topics are important and hopefully can pave the way to not have a difficult conversation. But a difficult conversation is I think you're drinking with your friend. That's a difficult conversation. 

 

Kristina Supler: Yeah. I mean, I'm. I'm not sure I totally agree with you, because I would say that you and I, given what we do for a living, are pretty comfortable in Converse. And are these types of issues, right, Like social media, drugs, sex, bullying, cancel culture. I could go on and on, but I think for a lot of families, I mean, the thought of having a conversation, much less at dinner with everyone there about nude images, I think a lot of parents find that incredibly difficult. And I think that's why we see so much of what we see in terms of families not understanding repercussions, kids not understanding repercussions, and parents wanting to talk to their kids about it, but they just don't quite know how. 

 

Susan Stone: or I’ll tell you. What's a difficult conversation When kids get sloppy with their homework, and you get those alerts? I remember, 

 

Kristina Supler: oh yeah,

 

Susan Stone:  when one of my children, it used to be and Il remember being at work and getting an alert that they didn't turn in homework and it would make me not like, why didn’t you turn in your homework? How hard is it? You do it, you put it in your book bag or you you turn it in. I guess they don't do that anymore. You do.

 

Kristina Supler: You upload it. Whatever, 

 

Susan Stone: and do your homework. This is your job. And while the job of someone in school is to do the homework. 

Kristina Supler:Yeah. Yeah. Well. And see that I would say is an easy conversation. It’s a frustrating conversation. Certainly, but not one that's necessarily that embarrassing or involves using body part words or something super incriminating. But I don't know let's so the sexting you thought that was easy That wasn't a hard one in your house? 

 

Susan Stone: because also there's been a lot of education at my kids school about sexting and they all know about predators. And I think there's just a lot more awareness. 

 

Kristina Supler:so how would you let's just say like, let's go with a low hanging fruit for what I would say. You know, most teenagers, drugs and alcohol, you're worried that your child may be experimenting with one or both and you want to, you know, have that confrontation in a, I don't know, firm but loving way. What are your thoughts on like how to has lean into that conversation with your child? 

 

Susan Stone: First, of all I’m a lot like you in the sense that I do a lot of snooping and just want you to know there's no right to privacy in my home. 

 

Kristina Supler: Totally agree. Totally agree. And I mean, I think it's important to, you know, let your kids know that once in a while you might be looking at their stuff or in our house.The rule is that we have to have all passcodes. And if we don't, the devices are gone. Because I'm very pro snooping. I think it's an essential part of parenting.

 

Susan Stone: Yeah. So I don't understand. I mean, occasionally you have to go into the bedroom and look around. 

 

Kristina Supler: Well, and I'm going to I'm going to say something that's perhaps controversial.Yes. Children and parents are not equal. 

 

Susan Stone: Whoa!

 

Kristina Supler: at the risk of sounding old fashioned, I'm going to say my house, my pocketbook, my rules. And so I yeah, I think that look, I think it's an interesting theoretical conversation to talk about, you know, kids and their right to privacy. But in my mind, the reality is if you have questions or concerns or doubts, look at the device.I think it will go through the bedroom. I don't see a problem with that. I don't 

 

Susan Stone:  Now. It's funny. My number two, when I went out of town, threw a party. 

 

Kristina Supler: Mhmmm Haven't we all.

 

Susan Stone: Oh my gosh. It it was devastating to learn about.

 

Kristina Supler: Sure  And how did you find out about it?

 

Susan Stone:  Oh my sister found out.

 

Kristina Supler: No. How did she find out? Did she drive by the house? 

 

Susan Stone: She drove by the house. 

 

Kristina Supler:Ahhhh

 

Susan Stone: I know she kicked the party out. 

 

Kristina Supler:The kids weren't smart enough to, like, park around the corner or down the street.

 

Susan Stone: There were too many. Too many. 

 

Kristina Supler:Oh my gosh. 

 

Susan Stone: I was not calm during that. So I have to say, sometimes I have failed during difficult conversations.

 

I've raised my voice and I've become a raging, screaming lunatic. Yeah, I'm a yeller.

 

Kristina Supler: I think we all have no judgment. No judgment

 

Susan Stone:  in a perfect world. You know, we were looking at an article preparing today from Psychology Today. I love this.

 

Kristina Supler:Lay on me. What you got?

 

Susan Stone:  It says, stay calm. 

 

Kristina Supler:Oh okay, Sure.

 

Susan Stone: Stay calm. Help your child feel safe. 

 

Kristina Supler: Okay.

 

Susan Stone: I think none I lost my shit. 

 

Kristina Supler: Sure.

 

Susan Stone: Okay. I did. I lost it. 

 

Kristina Supler: It happens. 

 

Susan Stone: Yeah, sometimes it does happen. And you know what? When you do lose it, it's okay later to apologize for that. 

Kristina Supler: I agree with that as well. I in I myself have been in that position where maybe I didn't handle things as well as I would have liked to.And I totally think it's important and I think it's setting a really good example for your kids to go back, you know, maybe an hour or so later, maybe longer days, perhaps after the dust settles and just say, look, you know, I thought about our conversation and, you know, I'm sorry that I raised my voice, said, you know, fill in the blank.

But I want you to know I love you no matter what. And you know, I was wrong. I think it's I don't know. I think it's important for your kids to see you admit fault, too. You know, I think it helps sort of teach them the importance of apologizing. We're not perfect and being thoughtful and maybe not writing people off right away to when they say something you don't agree with 

 

Susan Stone: It kind of goes with the job. On the other hand, it's okay to walk out of the house, go to yoga, run around the block and do what you need to do to regroup, because raising teenagers can be really, really, really difficult. You have to have the conversation, you know, want. I feel bad sometimes when you and I having the conversation.

 

Kristina Supler: Oh yeah. I mean, just circling back to something I said earlier, Kids make mistakes. People we all make mistakes. And, you know, often it's mistakes that brings families to us in moments of crisis. But the really the heartbreaking ones are when we think, oh my gosh, if only there was a conversation about, I don't know, rough sex. We deal with that a lot. You know, having that conversation with your child about the dangers of choking and strangulation and just because everyone else is doing it, you know, what are the implications? In our title nine cases, we see that a lot. 

 

Susan Stone: Well, we talk a lot about that in the book and actually the genesis for the book.But choking parents out there, you all need to tell your kids Cut that out, that no choking, choking, equal bad. Now, for parents, they all think, my kids wouldn't do that. And again, this is all in the book, but that is an important conversation to have. Don't choke. But things have changed from when I grew up because, I mean, my mother didn't have to tell me, don't let anyone choke you and don't choke others.

 

Kristina Supler: Oh having that that mental picture in my head right now, Having met Susan's mother, I'd love to envision this conversation. 

 

Susan Stone: My mom was like, don't get pregnant. 

Kristina Supler: Sure. Sure. And I think that that's, by and large, the conversation in my house as well. We're different generations, but it was still sort of that construct that, you know, the worst thing that could possibly happen or that could, you know, go wrong was unplanned pregnancy. 

 

Susan Stone: and become a pothead. That was a big one. 

 

Kristina Supler:Sure. Yeah. 

 

Susan Stone: But parents today, the stakes are higher with fentanyl I really cannot make it. Yeah, I remember we did a podcast with Birdie light. 

 

Kristina Supler: Yeah, yeah. That organization that is promoting education about that the fentanyl test strips super important thing to be aware of. So let me ask you this. You're trying to have that conversation and your your child is walking away saying, Mom, stop, I know this.

Oh my gosh, leave me alone. 

 

Susan Stone: That's okay. 

 

Kristina Supler: What do you do? Do you leave him alone? 

 

Susan Stone: Yeah. What are you going to do? Follow him in the room screaming like a lunatic? No, it's okay. They hear you. 

 

Kristina Supler: Well, that's what I think as well. And again, I mean, our kids are different ages, but I do think that at all ages, kids are listening. They're like little sponges absorbing. And, you know, even if they pick up a little shred of what you're trying to instill in them, I think it you know, something will land and hopefully achieve the, you know, intended effect.

 

Susan Stone:  I do want to kind of recap and conclude one thing. Just because you have a conversation, you we're not God.Okay. As parents, 

Kristina Supler:what do you mean by that? 

 

Susan Stone: Meaning you can't necessarily stop something from happening.

 

Kristina Supler: Sure. Right. 

 

Susan Stone: It can happen with the conversation. It can happen without a conversation. But at least if you're done your level best. It will help later with parental guilt. At least you can say I tried, man.

 

Kristina Supler: Yeah, parental guilt. That's an interesting one, because I experience it personally.I think we come across it in our jobs every day. And, yeah, I think that, you know, my goal is to not parent for, for my own selfish purposes, like, so that I don't feel guilt. But at the end of the day, let's be honest, life is hard, Life is unpredictable. We can't protect our kids from everything. And so hopefully we can at least arm our kids with information to make good choices.

 

Susan Stone: I’ll tell you what wouldn’t you as parents wouldn’t rather have the difficult conversation that have to hire two lawyers who are a complete stranger, be the first ones to talk to students about the fact you're doing too much, 

 

Kristina Supler: you're engaging in dangerous sexual behaviors. Your putting yourself in a bad situation at school with cheating.

 

Susan Stone: cheating. Yeah, right in battle. And, you know, don't use that chatGPT.

 

Kristina Supler: Oh, but It's so it's just there and it just spits it out beautifully.

 

Susan Stone: Oh, yeah It’s a ticket out of college, you know that 

 

Kristina Supler: Sure is. Sure is.

 

 Susan Stone: Okay. I think we've covered it. What do you think?

 

Kristina Supler: Yeah, this has been a good conversation. I hope our listeners, all of you parents out there, I hope you've enjoyed it and we've given you some food for thought and we welcome your feedback as well.Thanks for joining us. 

 

Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram. Just search our handle at Stones Supler and for more resources, visit us online at Student Defense.kjk.com.

Thank you so much for being a part of our real talk community. We'll see you next time.

On this episode of Real Talk, Susan and Kristina are joined by Dr. Christopher Thurber for an insider’s guide to summer camp success.  

 

Dr. Thurber has dedicated his professional life to improving how trusted adults nurture others and to enhancing the lives of adventurous youth. A graduate of Harvard and UCLA, Dr. Thurber has served as a psychologist and instructor at Phillips Exeter Academy since 1999. Over the past 25 years, he has been invited to lead workshops on five continents.

 

His best-selling family resource, The Summer Camp Handbook, was recently translated into Mandarin to help launch the youth camping movement in China. And his most recent book, The Unlikely Art of Parental Pressure, was described by The Atlantic as “a tour de force” and “the rare parenting book that respects both parents and children.”

 

Dr. Thurber’s research and writing have focused on homesickness prevention and healthy parenting, especially in the domains of pressure and learning from mistakes.

 

 

LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

https://drchristhurber.com/ 

https://www.exeter.edu/faculty/christopher-austin-thurber 

https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807

 

SHOW NOTES:

 

• Introduction and the importance of planning for children’s summer camp (00:21)
• Introduction of Dr. Christopher Thurber (00:57)
• Ideal age for children to start attending overnight summer camps (1:53)
• Benefits of longer stays at camps and how they affect homesickness and personal growth (3:07)
• Insights into the positive impacts of summer camps on children's social skills and self-confidence (5:54)
• Choosing the right summer camp and what to look for (7:34)
• The role of camp advisors and the best time to start looking for summer camps (9:19)
• Indicators of a camp’s quality (10:14)
• Tips on how to vet summer camps (11:46)
• Addressing homesickness and how to prepare your child for camp experiences (14:32)
• Impact of technology and social media on children's camp experiences (17:00)
• Guidance on managing communication with children at camp (19:19)
• Advice for parents on conversations to have with their children before sending them to camp for the first time (22:55)
• Importance of not making 'pickup deals' with children and fostering independence (24:24)
• Tips for selecting the right camp (26:00)
• Conclusion with final advice for parents on preparing for the camp season and fostering a positive experience for their children (28:00)

 

TRANSCRIPT:

Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Suler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversation.

Susan Stone: Kristina, believe it or not, even though we're looking outside and there's a lot of snow out there, yuck. Did you know what time it is?

Kristina Supler: Well, umm, if I'm thinking about what we're going to talk about today, I'm gonna guess that we're in the time of year that despite the snow outside, we have to start planning for our children's summers.

Susan Stone: And especially summer camp. Believe it or not, if you want your child to go to one of the more, uh, popular summer camps, now is the time that you would register. And it's hard to think about it because like Santa Claus hasn't even come down that shoe.

Kristina Supler: I know, and I'm particularly excited to speak with today's guest because I'm in, in my own family, wrestling with the idea of sending my son off to camp. And so this is, I'm really looking forward to today's talk.

Susan Stone: We might learn a little something on real talk. Why don't you introduce our guests?

Kristina Supler: Sure. Today we are joined by Dr. Chris Thurber, who has dedicated his professional life to improving how adults nurture others and enhance the lives of youth. A graduate of Harvard and UCLA, Dr. Thurber has served as a psychologist and instructor at Phillips Exeter Academy since 1999.

Susan Stone: I've heard of it.

Kristina Supler: Sure, he's written some books. His best-selling family resource is the Summer Camp Handbook, which has been translated into Mandarin. Believe it or not, and more recently, he has authored The Unlikely Art of Parental Pressure, which was described by the Atlantic as, “the rare parenting book that respects both parents and children”. Dr. Thurber's research and writing have focused on homesickness prevention, healthy parenting and helping children learn from mistakes. So Doctor Thurber, thanks for joining us today.

Dr. Chris Thurber: Thanks for having me as a guest. Yeah, I'm excited to be here.

Susan Stone: So it's so funny. I was thinking about summer camp and I still remember that when my oldest, whose birthday it is today, happy birthday, Alex. But when she was in 3rd grade, I went on a field trip to Maine with her and we looked at camps together.

Kristina Supler: I can only imagine. Ohh camp touring. What a life.

Susan Stone: Yeah, it was great. We had the best bonding time, but the question is for you. I chose for to be a rising 4th grader as a time to go to camp. We looked at camps when she was a rising 3rd grader. In your professional opinion, what is the best time to send students away for a summer camp and experience? And I just have a second part to that question. I chose a camp where I just threw my kid in for seven weeks because I was told on from a well-known Cleveland area psychologist that they do better with a longer stint because when you do a shorter stint, just as you're getting over homesickness, you're yanking them away. Thoughts?

Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, in terms of what age a child should be at overnight summer camp and I, I do think that like any experience overnight timer camp is not for everyone. But I would say that in my experience as a parent, as a researcher, as a psychologist, there's probably a camp for everyone. And I think it's a perfect complement to the traditional classroom setting. So a way of boosting kids social and emotional learning, a way of increasing their social skills, their confidence, their sense of adventure. And there's wonderful research to support all of my life experience and anecdotal evidence. The age at which a young person might go to overnight camp for the first time depends a lot on their previous life experiences and a little bit on their personality, and I think the way I would answer that question is not by giving you a number like 7 years old or 8 years old or 9 years old. But I could say that most overnight camps uh would take children as young as seven or eight. So that tells you something about 150 years of trial and error has landed us at that age, but for particular child, it really is gonna depend on that parent or primary caregiver looking carefully at that child's readiness, which depends a lot on what previous experience that child has had away from home. I don't know for Alex, but I would imagine that she had spent overnight at a friend's house, or she'd been at her grandparents house without you there for a couple of days. And that's the perfect sort of preparation for multiple weeks at an overnight camp.

Susan Stone: And do you have a thought about the second part of my question, 4 weeks versus 7 weeks or maybe even shorter depending on the camp?

Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, I haven't in my experience noticed a difference in the factor that your friend cited, which is intensity of homesickness. In fact, this was what I wrote my dissertation on was homesickness and have followed the research that's been done since then, quite closely enough to know that there isn't a difference in, say, homesickness intensity between someone who's staying at camp for two weeks versus 4 weeks versus 7 weeks. That again, I would say your friend was right in that longer stays and I would say four weeks or more result in a more immersive experience for young people and that shorter stays just a few days are a good taste of what? Overnight camp is like, but aren't gonna create the kind of social bonds and result in the sort of self-reliance and you know, willingness to try new things that will happen with a longer stay.

Susan Stone: That's exactly what I learned at that time. That you'd really takes a good chunk of time like 4 weeks as the minimum before you can really develop the friendships, develop leader styles, or even reinvent yourself. You could be that nerd at school and that fabulous person at camp. It's a chance of really defining yourself.

Kristina Supler: Sounds like a good movie.

Dr. Chris Thurber: It is very cool in that way. Well, it's a good movie and an even better experience. It's one we, you know, we underestimate sometimes. I think the social pressures that young people feel in elementary school even and you mentioned the unlikely art of parental pressure that I wrote with Hank Weissinger. We took a look at a lot of the research that's been done and were surprised ourselves to see how pernicious the effects of unhealthy pressure are for even elementary school age children and a lot of it is about pressure to conform, conform to dress, conform to preferences for favorite TV shows and how you present yourself online. So there are a lot of different domains of conformity, all of which happily evaporate at the best camps, and I think that that sort of reinventing yourself and boost in self-confidence can happen in as little as two weeks. I would also agree with you that a longer stay like 4 or 7 is going to strengthen that young person's confidence.

Kristina Supler: Dr. Thurber, I'm curious to hear your thoughts for our listeners out there, parents with the child, let's just say in grade school age is irrelevant, but a child who's maybe only slept at grandparent's house or has had maybe one or two sleepovers with a friend family member, whomever, what advice would you give those parents for sort of the building blocks to help ease your child into this experience to go away from home?

Dr. Chris Thurber: To have more of those, I mean, and we were at deficit because of having to quarantine many of us during the pandemic. So we have some catching up to do in providing healthy experiences for kids away from home. And just as you suggested in your question a day here a night here a couple days expanding to you know, two or three days, those sorts of experiences are what give a young person confidence in their ability to spend time away from home without their primary caregiver or caregivers and they can alert you as a parent to any sort of anxieties that need to be sorted out prior to a camp stay.

Susan Stone: What should parents look for in and overnight camp?

Kristina Supler: Hmm. That's a good question because no camp is gonna say yeah, send your kid here. We're OK. I mean, every camp has a long list of superlatives. Best, most fun. Exciting. You name it. You know, everyone's smiling on on the video on the website. What do you what should parents look for when vetting camps?

Dr. Chris Thurber: You guys are cracking me up and it's such a great question. First of all, can I just say how happy I am that we're recording this in late November and hopefully it'll be provided to your listeners soon because as you said in the opener, this is the time. This is the time uh. I get asked to do podcasts all the time in May, right?

Kristina Supler: But well, I know this was and this was Susan's idea, this idea, an experienced camp mom sender offer.

Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, may all moms and dads be as pression as Susan and Kristina? Seriously, it's it's, you know, this is the time to be thinking about it. This is the time, as Christina said, to be preparing with practice time away from home and what you should look for in a summer camp is a great question because and you were joking about it, you go into a camp's website. Remember that that's marketing, and I'm not deriding camps or their websites, and it's important that they have them and there's great information on them. But remember, it's marketing and the the camps are gonna look similar. I mean, you can distinguish the all boys camps from the all girls camps, from the all gender camps, from the Coed camps and the ones that have horseback riding from the ones that don't have horseback riding. And that is information that you can call from a website, but that's not telling you anything about the quality. So I would say three things that I think parents need to look for and you have listeners all around the world, but let's bring it down to North America. In Canada, there are provincial camp associations like for Ontario and for British Columbia, et cetera. In the United States, we have the American Camp Association. These are the accrediting bodies for camps, and it doesn't guarantee that a particular camp is a great match for your kid. But these associations are a first step that can't that parents should look for is the camp accredited to be an operation? It needs to be certified by the Board of Health in most states, so you can assume that that's the case, but you can ask to see their, you know, Board of Health cert. Then I would say by whom are you accredited knowing that accreditation happens once every few years and it is a way of saying at the time this camp was visited by trained peers and the camp world it it met these minimum criteria? Or maybe exceeded them then is where it gets interesting, and that's why Jon Malinowski and I wrote the Summer Camp Handbook, because there are lots of accredited camps and some of them I wouldn't ever send my own child to and some of them I would be glad to. So I think what you need to look for is first and foremost after it's passed Board of Health and accreditation. Is this a place where there's a good deal of tenure among the staff now? Potentially, the director who was there for 30 years, just retired, and so the new directors only been there for a couple of years. But you wanna look over time? What's the average tenure of the director? What is the average tenure for the other senior staff, assistant directors, program directors, waterfront directors and how long did the staff who work there generally work there, and that tenure tells you a lot about the loyalty and the spirit and the consistency that will exist at that camp, which I think are all important contributors to a young person having a really positive experience. Next is where do they get their staff and how do they train them? And this is really my wheelhouse because yeah.

Susan Stone: I remember that because the camp I had sent my children to through a lot of counselors that they receive from Australia and England, and I remember because they made my kids eat Vegemite and they thought that was hilarious, but they were great. They really had some really fun and they were learning the fun, cute accents and they love it and I don't know if you agree with this, but I really like that the camp we ended up selecting had a therapist and staff to deal with the issues and it really was quite helpful.

Dr. Chris Thurber: Yeah, I endorsed that wholeheartedly. And I think that people in that position, a mental health professional who's part of a camp, often also participate in the staff training. So as I was saying, where the staff from where they how are they hired? How are they trained that that's really crucial, right? I mean, the centerpiece of the camp experience is gonna be your child's new relationship with this young adult surrogate caregiver. Will they make peer friends? Yes, of course. But who influences the experience more than anyone else are the young adult leaders. And so you wanna know as much as you can about them.

Kristina Supler: That's a really great piece of advice for parents out there listening to this though, to look at the tenure of staff and employees, how many come back year after year because that speaks volumes for the nature of the experience, happy staff then hopefully translates to happy campers. So I love that.

Dr. Chris Thurber: It definitely does.

Susan Stone: Now, I don’t want to date myself in my next question. Do you remember the Alan Sherman song? Hello mudda. Hello fada. I won't sing for everybody. It's like one of my favorite songs. It's a really funny song. Alan Sherman. Hello mudda. Hello fada FADDUH. Great song for you listeners out there. I would play it, but it talks about homesickness and  you know, I remember when I sent my kids to camp. I I thoughts homesickness was normal, so when I got the first I miss you mom letter. I knew it was temporary and then by the time you picked them up, they're like, oh, I wanna stay in there crying that they're leaving. However, my kids were young and went to camp pre COVID and pre the mental health issues that Kristina and I wrestle with every day. I mean, I believe that kids are wrestling with social media. My kids did not have cell phones when they went to camp. It was unthinkable that a young child or a middle schooler would have a cell phone.

Kristina Supler: That's so interesting that you say that, Susan. I hadn't thought about that, and imagining well my daughter, I mean, I guess I have a direct experience with this, but I hadn't really tied it to the context of our practice. When she's away at camp in the camp experience, she has every summer's two weeks of sleep away and there's no electronics or anything like that. And she's fine. I mean, she adores her camp experience, but for many students who are so tied to their devices, social media, all those connections to then have them ripped away, it makes the transition all the more difficult. And pile on top of that homesickness. It actually is a lot. It's a tall, emotional order for adolescence.

Susan Stone: So how do you know Doctor Thurber between normal homesickness, that a parent should go, huh that'll pass, versus something's curious I need to check in on this and how. What is the appropriate way to check in on this? It is not get on a plane I assume and pull your kid out immediately. But is it?

Dr. Chris Thurber: No, absolutely not.

Susan Stone: I could be wrong.

Dr. Chris Thurber: No, you're not wrong. Again, you're right. You're also again present in, saying that home sickness is normal because it absolutely is. Of course, it varies in intensity from one person to another, but adults miss things about home when they're away as well, like on a business trip or something like that. So right, so look, the and this is really essential preparation in addition to what I said earlier about some practice time away from home. But letting your child know that you expect that there will be some things they miss about home. Maybe it'll be home cooking. Maybe it'll be you, or if there's another parent in the household, maybe it'll be the comforts of their room. The dog, dog, sibling, whatever it might be and you know it's different things for different people. But with practice time away from home and with an understanding that this is an absolutely normal phenomenon. And I tell kids. Look, there's something about home you miss that means there's something about home you love. That's wonderful. And all those things that you love are gonna be there when camp wraps up. So love this while you're at camp, love this experience. Make yourself at home here and look forward to what you're going to return to. You know, it's fantastic, however. There are instances when you know the intensity of home sickness is getting in the way of that child's enjoying activities and participating in other ways at camp. It's getting in the way of their making new friends and it's getting in the way of their eating and sleeping and well-trained staff are gonna know. How to spot that? Here's a kid who isn't eating well, sleeping well, not participating, not making friends. So those sort of primary functions of a camper when they're, you know, a day or two, we're going to make it if it's that extreme on a chronic basis, that camper is not eating well, sleeping well. Connecting participating. The first thing that's gonna happen again with at a camp with a well-trained staff is someone at camp is gonna contact you and say, here's the situation. Here's how we've been managing it. Let's talk about options, but it would be a huge mistake for any parent to preemptively respond to what is in 99.9% of cases, a normative, homesick letter by getting themselves to the camp and robbing their child of such an important developmental experience.

Kristina Supler: Do phone calls help or hurt a child sort of weather the storm of homesickness.

Dr. Chris Thurber: Unequivocally, they hurt until you've passed at least the two-week mark and then phone calls, if it's a four or seven week experience, are appropriate if they are scheduled not as a treatment for homesickness, not you missed your mom or you miss your dad or and so let's get them on the phone. It's never a treatment for homesickness and it if it's ever used by camp directors who don't know the research, haven't been to one of my workshops or parents who, you know, haven't read this summer camp handbook. And again, these are loving, well-intentioned people, but it is absolutely the wrong thing to do. If it's a scheduled contact after the two-week Mark that's used simply as a way to keep in touch, great. Even better though, letter writing. Because think about the difference you have to ponder You have to personalize. You have to reflect and then to get a response you have to wait and that's really good for kids. They don't have enough practice.

Susan Stone: Delayed gratification.

 

Kristina Supler: Though I will say that all the the shishi camps now, there's still some letter writing, but then there's the there's emails and it's not, you know, unfettered access, but you have to wait a day for your response. So there's a little bit of delayed gratification, but it's not like a week for the post to be delivered.

Susan Stone: Oh, what about care packages? Because I know that I remember this like it was yesterday. What started out as send a few pieces of candy, then became my kids were saying this one got this and this one got that, and you don't love me if you don't send me this and….

Kristina Supler: The status thing, it almost turned into as well. The comparisons who got what.

Susan Stone: And I was always on the bottom. Does that surprise you?

Kristina Supler: I doubt that very much.

Susan Stone: And I’m telling you I sent some good care packages. Thoughts?

Dr. Chris Thurber: Well, if you know if, if you're bored this summer, you could send me some care packages just to my home because I won't be. But now I see it it that is the problem you just described it and most camps are moving to a policy of no care packages. Sending your child to camp investing your you know time and your money. Although many camps also offer financial aid, you did a wonderful thing by involving Susan, your child, in the search for what camp is it going to be? It gave Alex decision control. She felt involved in the process. That is a wonderful way to diminish the intensity of homesickness. So without having a conversation, the two of us, you did so many things well. And I would say if the camp now is not allowing care packages, they're doing something well, because having your child go to camp is a way of showing you care in all caps, bold exclamation point, italics underlined. This is a way of showing you care and the camp has wonderful food and snacks and lots of things to do. So you don't need to send care packages and that makes it easier for everybody, not just in the name of equity and preventing this kind of comparison, but also in the name of hygiene, you know, camps that allow care packages.

Susan Stone: Or lack thereof.

Dr. Chris Thurber: Ohh. Or exactly?

Susan Stone: I mean, I came back and saw some yellow teeth. I doubt we're brushed, but you know that's part of it.

Dr. Chris Thurber: Yeah, well, there's that. There's that, but there's also raccoons and mice and squirrels and all the other, you know, creepy crawlies that also love your chocolate chip cookies.

Susan Stone: Yeah. Who wouldn't.

Kristina Supler: I'm curious, are there any conversations that sort of come to mind that you encourage parents to have with their children before sending them off? Probably the first time or so to camp.

Dr. Chris Thurber: So it's it, you know, it's normal for expect that your child is gonna express some kind of trepidation. It could be, what if I feel homesick? Or what if I don't like this? Or what if I'm not making friends, but the response that I coach parents to have when there's some kind of expression of, you know, concern is or anticipatory anxiety? Hey, I'm glad I'm glad we're talking about this. I think there will be some sort of adjustment because it's a new place with new traditions, different menu of activities and food. And of course, like that takes some getting used to. It's also part of the excitement is that it's different, different from home. It's different from school and I've every confidence that you will be able to push through those periods of adjustment those days when you feel like, ohh, you wish you had another friend or you're missing something from home or you don't like what's served for lunch. That's part of the experience and then you know, so that's the conversation to have is one that expresses optimism, optimism and confidence. The conversation not to have at any cost in any circumstance is the pickup deal, so saying, well, if you don't like it, I'll come and get you.

Susan Stone: Umm, Nope, not happening.

Dr. Chris Thurber: If you feel homesick, yeah. Because you have, you have just, you know, incapacitated the camp staff, whatever they would say to coach your child through a normal bout of homesickness is immediately surpassed by your offer on the table, which is there something you don't like? I'm gonna come and get you. What we wanna be doing as loving parents is saying, you know, there's something you don't like or if you're uncomfortable, I want you to learn the coping skills to manage that right. I mean, and you don't have to use those words, but when you say you can persevere, the camp staff are there to help you write to me about how you feel. And I'll write back. You know, this is this is what we want to say. Without ever, ever putting on the table a pickup deal it just it it it's horrible.

Kristina Supler: But what's interesting is that essentially what I'm hearing you say, reading between the lines are listening between the lines. It is parents don't insert yourself in the process. So no, I'll come get you if you're miserable. Don't insist on phone. Let your child have an opportunity to excel and navigate conflict and emotions on on the child's own footing.

Dr. Chris Thurber: Yes, PS:, we deserve a break. As you know from full-time parenthood, so enjoy yourself.

Susan Stone: Amen. Well, if you can't do the pre summer before the summer tour, which I have to say I could do for my first child. But then two and three didn't have that luxury. What is the advice you give parents right now, end of November, early December, to help give students the choice of camps. Would it be helpful because you really can't do a camp visit now? Camps are closed. So would you say have them look online and watch those great videos and then maybe have a call with the camp director?

Dr. Chris Thurber: That would be perfect. I think they're probably some things you can do before you go online, such as, you know, open ended conversation about what do you imagining you'd like to do at camp and are you imagining that you would like to be at an A Coed camp or an all gender camper or voice camper or girls camp? Are you imagining you would like to be in the mountains close to the shore on a lake. So you can throw some of those parameters out there, and if you have camp experience, you can also describe the camp where you at and what that was like and then you can go online and do a bit of a virtual tour, but the American Camp Association website and kids camps and a few other places, if you Google databases of summer camps, you're gonna be able to find keeping in mind that the American Camp Association database and the provincial camps associations databases are the only ones that camps are not paying an extra fee for to advertise. So yes, it's all marketing. Yes, it's all advertising and yes, you have to pay to be a member of the American Camp Association or the Ontario Camp Association, but you don't have to pay anything extra to be listed. You do have to pay extra to be listed in these other online listings, so you may not get a complete list, but you can narrow it down and then you can start as you said, going on to the websites and taking a peek. And it's wonderful to be able to talk to the camp director. One other thing that I would ask the camp director is could you give me the names of some families local to me who have kids at camp right now or have in the last few years. And the reason I would phrase it like that families local to me is twofold. One, if you say give me the names of some families, they're going to give you the names of the two families that are their personal friends who loved camp the most and are an extension of the marketing. If you say families local to you, that means that they can't hand pick the two families to zoom with, their local to whatever town you're in. Plus, if they are families local to you, this is the best thing getting families together, whether it's during this winter break or you know sometime in January, February or maybe the March or April break. But you know, so the kids can talk camp. You know, I'm talking about a returning camper and the parents can chat about what helped their child and what helped their own adjustment, because of course they're gonna miss their kids. But I think that's wonderful. So just add that as the cherry on top to your virtual tour idea.

Susan Stone: I remember doing that by the way, calling the parents were local. I did and I also used, they were great, a camp advisor where I spoke to the person and said what I was interested and they generated a list and it was free. So parents should know. You know, I don't know how you feel about camp advisors. There are people who take their fees from the camps and not the parents.

Dr. Chris Thurber: Mm-hmm. Right.

Susan Stone: Umm. Is that something you would recommend as well?

Dr. Chris Thurber: I think that as long as you recognize what it is that is being paid for, either by you or the camp which is access camp advisors can be enormously helpful in meeting a family, meeting a child, helping that child cull down you know their interests or listen to what their interests are and cull down the list of camps, knowing that you're going to be getting a choice or be offered a few camps that are already on that camp advisor’s list. The pro being that camp advisor has personally vetted those camps, so they've done some of the background research for you. The downside being the list is limited to the camps that paid to work with that advisor or you know it's a limited by the advisor’s geographic scope, but it can be enormously helpful and wonderful dimension to finding camps. You do your virtual camp tour and then talk to a camp advisor. You start to get some like convergent validity if you're coming up with the same two or three camp names, right?

Kristina Supler: Absolutely. Look, Doctor Thurber, this has been a real treat. I think that you've given us some really, really great information and food for thought.

Dr. Chris Thurber: Oh good.

Kristina Supler: For parent listeners out there and I'm glad that we were able to talk summer camp, but gives us something to look forward to on this cold snowy day.

Susan Stone: Kristina, do you think that we could go to summer camp?

Kristina Supler: I wish. Spa weekend. That's our summer camp, right?

Dr. Chris Thurber: There you go, Club Med.

Susan Stone: A spa hour, if we're lucky.

Susan Stone: Thank you, Dr. Thurber. We really loved having you.

Dr. Chris Thurber: Thank you both.

Susan Stone: We really loved having you.

Dr. Chris Thurber: I love being here. Happy holidays.

Kristina Supler: Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle @StoneSupler and for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community. We'll see you next time.

 

Are you familiar with the term "Turkey Drop"? This phenomenon occurs when college freshmen return home for Thanksgiving and often part ways with their hometown sweethearts. In a special Thanksgiving episode of Real Talk, hosts Susan and Kristina are joined by three students from a prominent midwestern university. Each student candidly shares their personal experiences of going through breakups during this period, offering valuable insights into the complexities and emotions leading up to these moments of transition.

 

 

LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807

 

 

SHOW NOTES:

·       Introduction to the show and hosts, Susan Stone and Kristina Supler (00:01)

·       Discussion on the excitement of the first Thanksgiving when students come home from college (00:14)

·       Introduction of the "Turkey drop" concept and personal experiences (00:38)

·       Introduction of three student guests: Laney, Jenna, and Morgan (01:41)

·       Discussion on the reasons behind the "Turkey drop" (06:02)

·       Sharing locations with friends and partners for safety and convenience (08:59)

·       Experiences post "Turkey drop" and current relationships with ex-partners (16:04)

·       Advice for freshmen with high school relationships (17:49)

·       Suggestion for a holiday gift: the book "Yes, your Kid" (19:35)

·       Conclusion and thanks to the guests (20:10)

·       Outro and promotion for the show (20:46)

 

TRANSCRIPT:

Susan Stone: Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Suler. We are full-time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversation.

Susan Stone: So in anticipation of Thanksgiving, Kristina, I wanted to do a really fun podcast, but I have to tell you that I know parents who have the freshmen who went off to college. The parents are so excited because there's nothing like that. First Thanksgiving when your kid comes home from college one day. You'll say that to me. I remember when you told me that.

Kristina Supler: I'm sure I don't doubt it.

Susan Stone: But not all is Turkey and pumpkins because some kids come home from college and they do the Turkey drop, which is when college kids come home and break up with their hometown, honey. But Kristina, you have an interesting view of this and actually so do I, but I want to hear what you say.

Kristina Supler: I did not do the Turkey drop, so I married my high school sweetheart. I didn't come home from Thanksgiving and do the breakup that you see everywhere. And now I'm married and have two kids,

Susan Stone: And I also want to share, and I hope I don't embarrass her, that my own daughter did not do the Turkey drop and she just married her high school sweetheart this summer. So it doesn't always happen. But with that said, I'm hoping we're going to get into some juicy conversation about it. Why don't you introduce our guests?

Kristina Supler: Yes. We are really excited today to be joined by three students from a wonderful Midwestern university that we're very familiar with. We're joined today by Laney, Jenna, and Morgan, who are going to share with us their perspectives on the Turkey drop. So ladies, without giving away anything that would reveal your identities, tell us a little bit about yourselves and what you're doing at school and really what you know about the Turkey drop

Susan Stone: And identify yourselves because of course our listeners can only hear you and not see you. So say it's Jenna, it's Laney.

Jenna: I'm Jenna. I am currently applying to law school right now, which is exciting and going through the process. Yes, and I did participate in the Turkey drop my freshman year of college.

Susan Stone: What happened?

Jenna: Pretty much verbatim what the Turkey drop would be. Two days after Thanksgiving, he came over to my family Thanksgiving party and then I was like, this is just not it anymore. And then two days later we broke up and now he's dating my best friend from high school.

Susan Stone: No, well, there you go. Jenna, what question? Were you both freshmen at different colleges or was he your hometown and still in high school?

Jenna: He was from my hometown, but we were both at separate colleges. We went separate colleges, so did long distance for the first three months and then called it quits.

Susan Stone: Was it hard for you? I was just going to ask.

Jenna: I was upset a little bit, but I was very much ready for the relationship to be over. But I feel like when you're date for a while, it's always a little bit upsetting, but definitely. Well, it's

Susan Stone: We’ll it’s always over until you meet the one, right? Right. Yeah. Laney, what about you?

Lany: Okay, so my story's a little bit different. Well, I'm Laney and I am a marketing major, and I did the Turkey drop second or my second year of college, so my sophomore year. So we actually made it through the freshman year, but then sophomore year we did it for a while. I just kind of was like, I don't even know. I was kind of just bored. I needed something new and then I was seeing all these new faces at school, so I just decided to participate in the Turkey drop and it happened. Well, he knew it was coming that I was going to break up with him. So when we were from the same hometown, but we went to two separate colleges, but he knew I was going to break up with him, so he just made me do it over the phone because he didn't want to have to see me in person to do it. I think he was embarrassed.

Susan Stone: I think that's reasonable, don't you? Yeah, I mean,

Lany: Yeah, it's reasonable. We ended up talking after that, but we dated for about four years, so I feel like it would've been a little more mature if he let me do it in person.

Kristina Supler: Oh, that's a long relationship to just have a breakup over the phone actually. I agree with you.

Lany: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, but then we ended up talking later over Thanksgiving, I think at Christmas break is when we actually ended up talking in person. But nope, just over Thanksgiving break I went for a drive and just broke up with him over the phone.

Kristina Supler: Morgan, what about you Morgan?

Morgan: I know. So I participated in the Turkey job my freshman year of college and we went to two different colleges. We dated all through high school and I don't know, I kind of just got to college and realized there's more to do in the world than be with my high school boyfriend, and I just decided that it was becoming a lot, having to keep up with him all the time, and I thought it was time to go our separate ways.

Susan Stone: And I mean, was the grass greener on the other side of the fence?

Morgan: Yes, I will say I think that's so bad, but I think it was a long time coming Halloween and he surprised me on Halloween right before we went home for Thanksgiving and it was fine, except I think I realized that was when I wasn't the most excited to be seeing him. I was excited for a fun Halloween with my new friends that I had met at college. So it was definitely that for me that I realized I think I was better off just doing my own thing and being more independent than having to rely on my high school boyfriend.

Susan Stone: Well, that leads me to the question for all three of you, and maybe we just kind of go in reverse order. What do you think the main reasons are for the Turkey drop?

Morgan: I think for me, it wasn't even like I met someone new at school that I was interested in. I think it was more just realizing I didn't want to have to be, I don't know. I wanted to be able to go out and not have to worry about texting my boyfriend where I was, who I was with, what I was doing. And that's kind of what it was for me freshman year because I know for me, I really loved my school, but for him it was a bit of a different story. So it was just two different dynamics and I think it was just time for us to part ways and meet new people. 

Lany: I would say almost the same thing. Yeah, we went to two very different schools. He was playing a sport in college, the division one sport, so he was super busy and we were just living two completely different lives and I was just meeting a bunch of people and we're in a sorority, so taking people to date parties, it kind of just got to the point where I just wanted to be able to go to more date parties with boys and bring them to mine. And I don't know, just our schools were very different, so I feel like I would be doing things completely different than he would on the weekends. He would be going to games and I would be going out and stuff. Just meeting a lot of people. 

Jenna: And then I think for me was our relationship was fine, except I think that once we both went our separate ways to college, we were a little too okay without each other and we never went to visit each other, never really cared to. So I think it was more of a just fizzling out of a relationship because we just really kind of realized that we were very okay without each other and didn't really need that anymore.

Susan Stone: So I have a question, Jenna, you mentioned not wanting to have to go out and then check in with your boyfriend when you got home. I am curious, how common is it that you share your locations and you check in with each other after a night out? Are all college students doing that now or is that something that only parents do to keep an eye on their students?

Jenna: It's actually funny. I still have his location. He still has mine really, because we just never unshared them. But I think, all my friends have my locations and stuff, so I think it's really common now just for a lot of people to have your location, not necessarily making sure you're in a certain place or whatever, more for safety purposes and stuff and just because fun to see where everyone is. I do think it's kind of normal now if you guys would say the same. Yeah, definitely. 

Susan Stone: I just want to point out that I always disagree with parents about locations. I'm one of the few parents I know who does not share location. 

Kristina Supler: You always say Susan, I don't want to know. Let them lead their lives. I want to live my life.

Susan Stone: Well, parents say to me, but it's a safety thing, and I respond back, what are you going to do?

Students: That's so true. Yeah, that is very true.

Susan Stone: And I also don't want to know my husband's location, and you know what? I don't want him to know mine. I am. Amen. Yeah, I just feel like I got to be a level of trust. Do you think, do you view it because I know all our clients sharing location is a thing, so do you view it as a way of forming intimacy with a friend or a boyfriend or a safety issue? Because I find it creepy.

Lany: I feel like I use it a lot more for my friends than I do with my family. Like you said, what are you going to do about it? Yeah, if I'm going out and it's two in the morning, my mom's sleeping, she's not looking at my location. But I feel like for friends, it's super nice, like, oh, we're at one bar, but I don't know where my friends are. You just look at their location. If sometimes in the bars your phone's not working or people just aren't on them, it's good to just be able, oh, they're here. I can go there. Or someone's picking you up from class and you can just check to see how far they are. I feel like it's honestly very useful. Convenient. Convenient for roommates, but I'm not ever really looking at my mom or dad's location. Well, my dad will share it. I feel like locations be a good thing until you take it. If someone was to take it out of pocket, I feel like if you had a boyfriend really tracking you and keeping tabs on where you are, then I feel like that's just taken to the next level. But I agree. I think I use my location more for just us. Yeah, for sure. 

Susan Stone: Interesting.

Kristina Supler: Yeah. I'm wondering for, so the three of you have all done the Turkey Drop. Do you have any friends who have done it but then maybe reunited with the dropped person later?

Student:  I do. I have a friend who did. I don't remember if she did Turkey drop or if it was over Christmas break, one of the two. But then, yeah, they reunited back over summer, but then broke up two months after that. So I think it was for the best that the Turkey drop should have just stayed.

Susan Stone: Do you think you could manage, if you sort of were on the fence, okay, that you realized, I do love this person, but I don't want to be timed down. Could you remain open or is that too much?

Student: I feel like that's the point.

Student: I agree with that. I feel like I was to the point where I was like, if I'm going to break up with him, I just like it's going to happen. I didn't want to, don't know. I feel like I was past the point of making the effort, trying new things of if I would do open or anything. It was kind of just past that point. She was staying open. 

Student: I think that I feel like I was already kind of doing that. We really didn't. I never texted him the whole time when I was out. I did my own thing. I usually really never knew where he was or what he was doing, which just goes to my point where I think we were a little bit too comfortable with being away from each other. 

Student: I think mine was more of kind of random. I remember calling my mom, she's like, why are you breaking up with him? I didn't really have a reason. I feel like it was just not being able to see him. We lived in the same neighborhood, so I saw him all the time before every single day. So I think just kind of growing apart and nothing really happened, so it was hard, but I feel like, I don't know what I'm even going with this, but I feel like if we would've went to the same schools, we probably would've stayed together. 

Student: I feel like when it begins to feel like you have to text them and you have to tell them things, you kind of just know this is fizzling out. We're going to go our separate ways. When something exciting happens and you're like, they're not the first person you want to go talk to about it, you just don't feel like it, then it's probably a time to Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Susan Stone: Ladies, you are on Real Talk with Susan and Kristina, so I'm going to ask you something and I want you to be real. The breakup, was it in your minds at all? Oh my gosh, we're heading into the holiday season, have to buy gifts, spend time with their families, all of that. Was that on your radar or no?

Student: No, but we already started buying gifts for each other for Christmas, and I was like, I got him $200 raybans. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to return them. And he was like, no, let's meet up in a month, go to lunch and exchange our gifts. And I was like, okay. So I ended up giving my ex-boyfriend $200 Raybans, and I got a plastic Starbucks cup and

Susan Stone: He cheaped out on you? 

Student: Yeah, that was definitely something. 

Student: Yeah, so I kind of have a similar thing. My birthday was in September, so for my birthday he bought me tickets. I was a really big Louisville football fan. He's big Kentucky, so the big game was over Christmas break, so for my birthday in September, he had bought me those tickets. I don't even know if he had bought them yet. So we were supposed to go over Christmas break, so I never even got my birthday present because then we broke up and then I didn't even get the tickets. Shoot. I know. So not Christmas gifts, but I didn't even get my birthday. 

Student: I feel like I really, I was just so kind of in my head just over, I knew it was kind of over. I don't really think I thought much into Christmas gifts or anything because I just knew when I got home and saw him again, I was just going to cut it off. I didn't want to do it over the phone because we had been dating for a while and I wanted to try to be respectful about it. 

Susan Stone: If you saw the person now, would it be friendly, awkward? What's the state? How do you feel about that person now?

Student: So my ex-boyfriend's actually in my high school friend group from home. I definitely see him more often than not when I'm home, but I feel like it's not really awkward because it definitely was at first for sure. But now at this point, I mean we've seen each other over breaks. We just kind of say hi. We're not really small talking, but we're still civil and friendly with one another.

Susan Stone: That's nice.

Student: Yeah, that's how I am too. Like I mentioned earlier, we live in the same neighborhood, so I definitely run into him every once in a while. It's not really awkward at all. We still, every once in a while we'll text and catch up. I dated him for so long, so we're still good friends and we'll catch up, but I was really close with his family, so sometimes when I go home for a night or something, I live pretty close to school, I'll see his family and I'll go over to his family's house and hang out with them when he's not there. I was just so close with him, his parents and then his older sisters I was super close with. So it's not awkward at all for me. 

Student: Same for me. We're in the same high school friend group too, so we saw each other a few times over the summer and it's never really weird. If I have my friends over, I invite him. We ended things very on good terms, so it's all good.

Susan Stone: How many of you are big sisters in your sorority?

All: We all, yeah, we all are. Yeah.

Susan Stone:  Are your littles freshmen?

All: They're they're juniors.

Susan Stone: Oh, okay. So if you had advice for a freshman who you knew had a hometown, honey, what would be your advice

Student:  I think that it's always worth a try, but don't go in with the highest expectations because nine times out of 10 it doesn't work out. And that's fine and you'll be fine. 

Student: Yeah, I mean, yeah, that I guess is better advice. Go in it with it, but also don't miss out on things. Go to the date parties. If your boyfriend trusts you not to do anything, then I think it's totally fair to be friends with a guy as just friends and go to his date parties and stuff. I feel like when me and my boyfriend broke up, I met so many more guys. I wasn't, there wasn't even a guy that I liked. You just meet so many more people when you don't have a boyfriend because you get invited to those things. I guess that's for being in sororities and fraternities, but just don't miss out on things because of a relationship. And if you are, then it's probably not meant to be. 

Student: I definitely agree. I think freshman year is one of the most important times to meet new friends and figure out what you want to be doing and what you like and the people you want to be around. And I think that it's like you need to make sure that having a boyfriend isn't holding you back from those types of things because those are the friendships you're going to look on to later on and be so happy that you met those girls and you went to that thing. You went to that event, you went out that night just because, I don't know, you don't want to miss out on stuff like that. And if a boyfriend's holding you back from that, it's probably time to let him go. 

Student: Agreed.

Susan Stone: So Kristina, I have a suggestion for these lovely ladies. What they should get their parents for Christmas or for the holidays?

Kristina Supler: Oh, you are the most clever of them all. Ms. Stone, what is it? What do you think it is? Oh my gosh, look at that. 

Susan Stone: I think on Amazon, all of your friends should get a copy of Yes, your Kid. What parents Need To Know About Today's Teens and Sex - Co-written by yours truly, because there's some new topics about the new sex ed in here, like rough sex, choking, plan B. We know what you really do, guys, so I think you should let your parents know. What do you think, Kristina?

Kristina Supler:  Check it out. It's a good primer for parents on what I mean, what you all know, but what we're seeing when people come to us for various types of matters and what's really going on college campuses these days, which is shocking to some parents, but not to us because it's what we do. But it was really such a treat speaking with you all. Thank you so much for joining us, Laney, Jenna, and Morgan, and hopefully this was a fun little episode for our listeners to just talk about the Turkey drop.

Thanks for listening to Real Talk with Susan and Kristina. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to our show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review so other people can find the content we share here. You can follow us on Instagram, just search our handle @StoneSupler and for more resources, visit us online at studentdefense.kjk.com. Thank you so much for being a part of our Real Talk community. We'll see you next time.

On this episode of Real Talk, Susan and Kristina are joined by Dr. Debby Herbenick to discuss their new book, Yes, Your Kid: What Parents Need to Know About Today's Teens and Sex. Covering various aspects of sexuality and sexual education including the challenges of working with students in crisis situations, the evolving definitions of what constitutes "sex," and the prevalence of rough sex practices, specifically choking, in contemporary sexual experiences. In this episode, they touch on the confusion and lack of comprehensive sexual education, and how the digital age and online media have further complicated these issues. The conversation highlights how different individuals may have varying definitions and perspectives on what constitutes sexual activity.

 

Pre-Order Our Book "Yes, Your Kid" Today!

 

Links Mentioned in the Show

·       https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Your-Kid-Parents-Todays/dp/1637743807

·       https://sexualhealth.indiana.edu/

  Show Notes:

• Book announcement (00:25)
• Introduction of Dr. Debby Herbenick (1:50)
• Book summary (3:10)
• Why should parents buy this book? (4:10)
• The different perspectives during the writing process (6:10)
• How the research is different from the legal perspective (9:57)
• How the types of cases change over time (13:30)
• How sex changes (15:00)
• How choking has grown in prevalence (18:10)
• How well are students educated about sex (19:40)
• How the internet changes student education (21:40)
• How the definition of sex changes over time (22:20)
• How different groups of people define sex (25:45)
• The goal of being an “askable” parent “(27:50)
• The importance of providing information to kids and students (30:00)
• What was your favorite part of writing this book (32:05)
• How sex on the spectrum is discussed (34:50)
• Current trends of mental health in students (36:30)