Reformed Brotherhood | Reformed Theology and Brotherly Love

What does it mean to be truly free from sin as a Christian? In this compelling New Year's episode, Jesse Schwamb explores John Owen's powerful 17th-century treatise on Romans 6:12, unpacking the crucial distinction between sin's presence and sin's dominion in the believer's life. Drawing from Owen's pastoral wisdom, this episode challenges listeners to examine whether sin merely dwells within them or actively rules over them. Through practical diagnostic questions and theological clarity, Jesse demonstrates how union with Christ breaks sin's reign while acknowledging the ongoing battle believers face. This episode offers both encouragement for the weary and a battle plan for those ready to wage war against remaining corruption through the ordinary means of grace.

Key Takeaways

• Sin's presence versus sin's power: Christians experience sin remaining in them, but it no longer reigns over them—sin is present but dethroned, active but not sovereign.
• Dominion means rule and mastery: Sin's dominion isn't about occasional temptation or influence, but about who calls the shots, sets direction, and gets obeyed in your life.
• Resistance proves grace is reigning: The very fact that believers fight against sin demonstrates that sin has lost its dominion—tyrants don't get resisted by loyal subjects.
• Union with Christ breaks sin's rule: Freedom from sin's dominion comes not through self-improvement or behavioral modification, but through being joined to Christ in His death and resurrection.
• Grace changes your master, not just your status: The gospel doesn't merely pardon rebels; it transfers them into a new kingdom under a new king with a new governing principle.
• Diagnostic questions reveal sin's reign: Key indicators include whether you make peace with sin or wage war against it, whether you hide sin to protect it or expose it to kill it, and whether you justify or confess it.
• Ordinary means sustain the battle: Victory over sin comes through God's appointed channels—the Word, prayer, sacraments, and fellowship—not through spiritual shortcuts or hacks.

Key Concepts The Distinction Between Sin's Presence and Sin's Power

One of John Owen's most pastoral insights is his careful distinction between sin dwelling in believers versus sin reigning over believers. This isn't mere semantics—it's the difference between a defeated enemy occupying territory and an enemy holding sovereign control. Owen helps us understand that indwelling sin operates like a guerrilla force: active, disruptive, and often humiliating, but critically, no longer sovereign unless we surrender the throne.

For believers struggling with recurring temptations or habitual sins, this distinction offers both comfort and challenge. The comfort comes in recognizing that the presence of internal conflict with sin is often evidence that grace has moved in and started an eviction process. The challenge lies in honest self-examination: Are there areas of life where we've made a covenant with sin, carved out corners where sin calls the shots? Owen's pastoral wisdom recognizes that you can have religious habits, theological vocabulary, and church involvement while sin remains the practical king in specific domains of life.

How Union with Christ Breaks Sin's Dominion

The Reformed doctrine of union with Christ provides the theological foundation for understanding how sin's dominion is actually broken. Owen emphasizes that Christianity is not primarily behavioral modification but entrance into a whole new reality. When believers are joined to Christ in His death and resurrection, that union fundamentally changes everything—not just legal status before God, but actual power dynamics in daily life.

This means grace doesn't merely cancel your debt or pardon your rebellion; it changes your master entirely. A new dominion has been installed, a new king now rules, operating by a new principle through the Spirit. This is why Paul's language in Romans 6 isn't just about forgiveness but about transfer of kingdoms. The Christian life isn't a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement—it's warfare under a victorious King who has already raised the flag on the battlefield. You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect; you're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable.

The Ordinary Means of Grace as Weapons in the Battle

Owen is allergic to spiritual shortcuts and secret hacks for holiness. Instead, he consistently points believers to what Reformed theology calls the "ordinary means of grace"—those simple, God-appointed channels through which the Spirit works to apply Christ's victory to our daily lives. These include the Word of God (not merely read but received with faith and applied with honesty), prayer (as dependence rather than performance), the sacraments (as visible grace strengthening faith), and fellowship with accountability (because lone sheep Christianity is essentially wolf delivery).

The hard truth Owen presses into our modern habits is that a neglected Bible and a prayerless life don't create mysterious seasons of spiritual dryness—they create predictable weakness. Grace reigns in lives where Christ is trusted, and Christ is trusted where Christ is attended to through these ordinary means. Owen would say that the Christian who doesn't pray against temptations they know they'll face is not truly repentant when they pray against them after they've occurred. This isn't legalism but recognition that spiritual warfare requires using the weapons Christ has actually provided.

Memorable Quotes

The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare, yes, but it's warfare under a victorious King.

You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable.

When you sin, do you make peace with it or do you make war on it? Do you hide sin to protect it or do you expose sin to kill it?

Full Episode Transcript

[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: as you fight, here's what we need to remember together. The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare. Yes, but it's warfare under a victorious. King. I mean, Jesus himself is the one raising the flag on the battlefield, calling us out.

Take heart, Christian, you're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. That I think is how John Owen would summarize. Free from Sins Dominion. Sin still dwells, but no longer rules. Grace doesn't just forgive your rebellion.

It overthrows the rebel regime. So I hope that that is in some way a small little treat as advertised for the new year,

[00:01:05] Introduction and New Year's Greetings

[00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse and this is the podcast with the same old truth for a brand new year.

Hey, brothers and sisters, happy New Year. It's 2026 and it turns out the Band Smash Mouth was correct when they said the years just keep on coming. And on this episode, we've got a little bit of a New Year's treat for you. But before we do that, let me explain a couple things. Let me bring you into the Reform Brotherhood realm.

Give you a little peek behind the curtain because. We've received the questions, we've heard the rumors. What is going on? Where was everybody? And where is Tony?

[00:01:47] Where is Tony?

[00:01:47] Jesse Schwamb: Don't worry, I have answers for you. So first, we took a little bit of a hiatus, just a couple of weeks for the holidays at the turn of the year here.

And during that time I did in fact see Tony with my own eyes. He does exist. Some have asked, has Jesse taken over the Reform Brotherhood podcast? Is there just one host? Now, is Tony in some kind of theological witness protection program because he's debated too many people online? I'm happy to tell you that Tony is alive and well.

He's doing just fine. But as I mentioned previously, his family's been going through all kinds of sickness, particularly his wife, who is my sister. She's had some intractable upper respiratory infection stuff going on, so please pray for her. He's been dutifully taking care of the family and her, and that's just meant that sometimes the podcast has to take a little bit of a backseat, so he is coming back.

He is alive and well. In fact, if you still want to interact with him, the best way to do that, as you've heard me say before, is you can actually, believe it or not, hang out with us. In the interweb sphere, and you can do that by going to T Me, lemme say that again. T Me Reform Brotherhood. It's been a while.

Loved Ones T Me Reform Brotherhood. And there you'll find a little chat group that takes place in the telegram. Chat. So come hang out. There he is. There he is alive and well. And we'll be back before you know it. And that's why this whole episode is not just a castaway, it's a little bit of a New Year's treat.

[00:03:19] New Year's Reflections and Resolutions

[00:03:19] Jesse Schwamb: And I say that because I think all of us at this time of year, whether we want to admit it or not, we do think a little bit about the fresh beginning, the new start, and. First, can we just say that what the world looks for in the calendar is what Christ gives to us in the every day? What a blessing that we have a God who gives us mercies, and those mercies are new every day.

That's the best of all things, to have something new. And again, I think of Revelation 21, which by the way, when I was with Tony, I just heard my father, who's an amazing pastor, preached so well on Revelation 21. What he called the other side of Christmas. Speaking of this all how new heaven, new Earth, Christ, making all things new.

And one of those things that hit me again in that sermon was that Christ is making all things new now. All new things, right? Amen. So that means that we get to be beneficiaries. Of the changing power of Christ, what a joy it is to have fresh beginnings, to have a new start without being made all over again.

And so this time of year naturally draws our mind to those things again, some of us make resolutions, some of us don't. Whatever your preference and your priority is, that's fine by me. I think this gives us a chance to be reminded that at the beginning of something new, at the start or turnover of something different, it does orient our minds to thinking.

What can I change? What can I process in a new and maybe more prolific or profound way? And so it just so happens that I want to make this New Year's treat for you, dear listener, brother or sister, because I happen to just come across a book that I've just finished reading in this new year. That I think sets us up perfectly with this in mind.

[00:04:56] Introducing John Owen's Book

[00:04:56] Jesse Schwamb: If one of our goals just generally is to be more Christ-like, not for the sake of just emulating Christ per se, but because we see in him all that is elegant and beautiful and righteous and worthy, and so we want to partake in that kind of life and a very, very real way, and it just so happens well.

Nothing, just so happens providentially. What happened is that I came across, as I was looking through the stack of unread books, the things that I wanted to read, one just happened to catch my eye, and it was by John Owen. And it's a book about being free from the dominion of sin, and I picked it up thinking, I don't know, I'd read a lot about this idea of what it means to have sin and grace in your life and that this would be another great treatise on how to explore those concepts.

But what I found was, I think something so much deeper that was a treat already for me in this new year, and I think that's setting me up for how to process and frame and to think going forward in this new year. This is a phenomenal book. It's really not that long, so you can go read it yourselves, but the treat maybe might just be that you don't have to read it.

Let me bring forward some of the themes for us to consider, because I think this is a great way to start the year. In fact, I have read that the 19th century Scottish professor, John Duncan, would assign this book to a student. So as he was training particularly for ministry, and when he would assign this book to them for reading, he would say.

Gentlemen, prepare yourselves for the knife. I mean, what an opening, what an opening gambit for somebody who's recommending a book to you or acquiring that you read a book. And like Owen's stuff, I think that this is true. It's the kind of book that doesn't pull any punches. I mean, this whole book is written on a single verse from Romans 12, uh, Romans chapter six, verse 12, and the verse reads, let not sin, therefore reign in your mortal body to make you obey its passions.

And what basically Owen unpacks from that is he draws back to this idea of what it means to be not under the law, but now under grace. Now you guys probably know if you know anything about. John Owen, he was a Puritan hanging out in the 17th century and he wrote like he got paid by the Semicolon and this book called Free From Sins Dominion.

It, you know, it sounds like a victory lap, doesn't it? For the Christian, and this is what I wanna get into, this is where some of the treat lies. It sounds like we're saying, I'm free, I'm done, I'm out. And Owen is there with his knife. He's there lovingly and firmly and repeatedly to say yes. But also, no, not, no in.

There's no freedom, but no, as in you don't understand what kind of freedom this is. That's why it's so critical to think about this. So I thought let's hang out for a couple minutes. Let's walk through some of these ideas. This is all Owen. It's all stuff I've been processing. I'm hoping that it'll be something that sets you up for the new year, helps you think a little bit about what goals you might have.

And by the way, I don't think it's a bad idea to set some goals for yourself as long as you're not legalistic, but you come into this with a renewed passion to serve the Lord Jesus. In 2026 in big and faith reaching ways. I think all of that calls us to kind of communal response in living out the theology that we espouse or the things that we pack into our mind.

We're all gonna track probably this year, or many of us do if we're nerdy like you are Me, the things that we listen to and the things that we read. But what about the end of the year? Like the content and the spiritual depth of our lives. If we could measure that, if we could actually think back on it and meditate on what have we done, what have we tried to process, what have we tried to live out?

I don't think it's a bad idea to say to yourself, if I'm going to think about that this time next year, what will I have to think about, if anything? So I think Owen really sets us up here with this big idea.

[00:08:39] Understanding Sin's Dominion

[00:08:39] Jesse Schwamb: And the big idea is this, sin still lives in believers, but it no longer rules believers. Sin still lives in believers, but it does not rule there anymore.

It remains a presence, but it's not a king. It still barks but doesn't own the house. And if you're thinking, well, great, so why does it feel like sin has a mortgage on my soul? Owen has answers for us. And those are questions that equally, almost every day I think about. And the beauty is he's not gentle about it, but he's deeply pastoral.

He's like a doctor who tells you the truth while he also hands you the medicine. And that's one of the things I really like about this book. So let's talk about this idea of dominion. Why even throw that in the title Dominion's, kind of an old tiny word of power and control, and I dunno how often you use dominion like in your vocabulary, just casually when you're talking to people.

But he starts off by essentially telling us what he means by this. Actually, more importantly, like what scripture means about sins, dominion, it's rain. It's talking about rule mastery governing power. Dominion means sin, calls the shots, sets the direction, issues the order, and gets obeyed. And so. After all that's set up, the question that we get that's diagnostic is, and I pose this to you, is sin merely present in you or is sin in charge of you because it's not the same thing.

I think believers with various senses of conscience and sensitivity to these, these things will process that differently. And you should try to understand is sin merely present in you or is sin in charge of you? And I might add not just in charge writ large, but are there areas of your life where you've courted off, sectioned off where sin is in charge, where it is calling all the shots?

A believer may feel sin painfully. I mean, I think there are times by God's grace that I do, and I'm sure there are times when you as well feel that way. Sin may harass. Attempt interrupt and disturb, but. The scripture insists that that's different than sin reigning. In other words, the believers fight with sin is now proof of sins dominion, actually, it's often proof sin has lost dominion, and I think this should be great encouragement to us.

Lemme say it like a different way, tyrants. Don't usually get resisted by loyal subjects, and the resistance itself tells you something has changed. If you are rebellious against sin, then this shows something about your power to one, perceive it to be an enemy, even if it's present you're in the war, but also that there is power that you've received.

Externally to recognize and then to fight against that sin, and no one knows that. The tender conscience is going to panic here because that's what tender conscience always do. Tony and I talked about that. If you're tender, you hear sin and your soul immediately opens 12 tabs entitled, what have I Not Saved?

And we've joked about how this is kind of one of those things, especially in reformed circles, where we are so quick and insistent to show the depravity of sin, to emphasize the point, and then to bring the law to exemplify that point that sometimes this, especially among the sheep, those who are saved, those called in Christ, they become discouraged.

And whether it's any of the Puritan writers who emphasize that without coming alongside and presenting the gospel side by side, or even more contemporary examples, you know, you've heard Tony and I joke about, you know, all these preachers who will really come down too hard almost on God's own people.

And this is where it's so important that we understand that yes, the bad news is absolutely necessary. I mean, first of all, the bad news is truth, and that is that we are totally depraved, not as depraved as we can or should be, but depraved in every. Part of our own lives such that sin is prolific and ubiquitous and therefore taints all things That is literally a death sentence.

And this is why the good news is good, because it's good news about bad news and that is that where that bad news is present. Here comes Christ as this second or the last Adam. So as in one. One man's sin all died in one man's sacrifice and righteousness all will live. Those who repent and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.

That is the good news. So Owen slows down and he says, look at the category. Dominion is not the same as influence, not the same as temptation, not the same as indwelling corruption. Dominion is a throne, and sin may still throw stones at the palace, but if Christ is king, then sin isn't. I think you heard me say on one of the more recent episodes.

That we all are slave to something or someone. So the question isn't who is your master, but what is your master like? And that's really what Paul is after in Romans. And what Owen kind of picks up here is his question is one of dominion. Woo. Who is set up on that throne? Two kingdoms, two masters. There's just one human heart.

And so the frame is that we are living always under a ruler. Ruler, or I think like some of the more. Literal translation of the scripture will insert the word slave there instead of servant. To really emphasize this point that you're either under sins reign or you're under grace's reign, this is one of those things in life that's truly binary.

You're either under sins reign or under Grace's reign. And here's the major reform note that Tony of I have. Really just some of our conversations have gravitated towards. You don't slowly graduate out of sins dominion by self-improvement. You don't level up into freedom like it's spiritual Mario car, you know.

The whole point of Paul bringing forward this contrast is that freedom comes through a change of lordship. Sin is not just a list of bad actions, it's a power, it's a master, it's a dominion. And grace is also a reign, not mere leniency. It's not like the opposite or it's not like some cosmic boys will be boys, but it's a ruling power through Christ.

And so the heart question becomes who rules you and who rules me? In all areas of our life, I think the Christian will be quick to say, well, Christ does reign. I think what Paul is drilling out here is more specifically, but who reigns in your finances? Who reigns in your sexuality? Who reigns in how you spend your time?

Who reigns in how you serve others? Who reigns in your disposition? Who reigns in how you take care of your family? Owen is totally allergic to superficial religion. It's one of the things I really like about him. You can have religious habits and still live under sins, dominion. You can have theological vocabulary, strong opinions, even church involvement, and still sin is the practical king.

And so we're really after, in this new year, at least, I want to be, what is the practical rule in dominion that supersedes everything in my life? And again, even the areas that I find difficult or that are tough where, who is ruling in those areas? Because the dominion of sin isn't measured by whether you have a conscience, but it's measured by whether you submit to sin as a governing authority.

And I think the challenge here for us isn't, again, just are we submitting everywhere to. As a governing authority, but are there places where we do carve out purposefully running headlong into planning where we allow sin to call the shots, where we, even if after the fact we, we have and expressed some remorse over those things, but in one point in this book, Owen says something so succinctly, it really just hit me upside the head and it was that he said something the extent of.

The Christian that does not pray against the temptation that they know they will face is not truly repentant when they pray against it after it has occurred. That was the knife, brothers and sisters. 'cause I was like, amen. That's right on. And that's I think what Paul is drawing us to here, that the real reign and rule of Christ is one of power.

And if we so desire it, if. Pray and ask or quest, the Holy Spirit move us from glory into glory. Even in these places where we find sin intractable, then we should want to wage war by the power of Christ. And there is real power to do away with sin, not entirely, but to face up against these temptations with strength so that our spiritual character, our spiritual resolve, our spiritual depth, authenticity, and abundant life is not ruined, destroyed, or hampered.

And so sin reigns. Of course for all of us in the old self, the, the old management Owen describes what it looks like when sin rules. He says it does so with the precision of someone who has watched his own heart long enough to be unimpressed. And so see here's, here's what he gives as some practical tips and I give to you.

[00:17:02] Practical Tips for Recognizing Sin's Dominion

[00:17:02] Jesse Schwamb: I'm just passing them along for this new year to get a sense for whether sin is raining or not. Here's, here's a couple things. One is that the will is bent towards sin as the preferred path, and that is there. Maybe there are parts in your life where there are mine, where that's where you want to go, and you know you probably shouldn't, but that's where you want to go.

The mind excuses sin, rationalizes sin or defends sin. I think we all have those characteristics in our lives. We say, well, I, I'll get to that eventually, or there'll be a better time for me to really confront that kind of sin. And so we make excuses or we just say, this is how it is, or this is how I was made, or this is my personality.

Another way in which sin reigns, or we can discern that it's raining. Is the affection love sin? Maybe not openly, but functionally. Or that the person yields as a pattern, not merely as a stumble. That is that we've cut ourselves into a groove of doing these things and at some point we just fall on our desire to actually move ourselves or pray that Christ would move us out of those things.

And so in Sin Dominion, a person may feel occasional regret, but the overall direction is sin gets its way. And I think if we're all honest. I think Owen is calling us to again, look at all areas of our life where we know that there are pathways in which we run headlong in that sinful way, and that we allow sin to get hiss own way.

And I think Owen is careful. Sin doesn't need you to enjoy every sin. I think sin, if we're like personifying, it is happy if you just obey. I mean, sin can rule through fear, habit, appetite, reputation, secret, compromise, whatever keeps you under its thumb, but it will attempt to keep you under its thumb.

Thumb. So you can think of it this way. Sin doesn't need you to throw a parade for it. Sin just needs you to keep paying tribute. And I, when I thought about this, I thought that is so correct and this is why it is so dangerous. Why does so compromising, why it costs so much because. Not only is it powerful in its rule and dominion, but that rule and dominion is one of just conscious and ongoing destruction.

It's emptiness in the committing of the sin. Even if you thought it would bring you even some kind of temporary relief, while often knowing in the act or while you're pursuing it, that's gonna leave you empty and destroyed. And that's all it does. So this dangerous loop, I mean, you can imagine this is reading.

This made me just think. How much mercy we ought to have for those who are around us, who are blinded by sin as we once were, who are living in darkness, which of course, why the Bible speaks of these themes of Christ coming in light to bring forward the illuminating presence of God's love and the purifying power of His forgiveness in his mercy, because the opposite of that is stumbling around living in darkness.

And so I love that Owen. Owen and Paul of course, pulls us into this direction of saying, here is how sin loses its dominion. Then if all those things are true and they can be true, and I think even like little corners of our living spaces, then how does SIM sin lose that dominion?

[00:20:17] Breaking Sin's Dominion through Union with Christ

[00:20:17] Jesse Schwamb: And the answer is, union with Christ, this blessed union with Christ that we get, I mean the best of all New Year's treats when we come into the family of Christ, when he saves us, when we reach out to him with repentance and forgiveness, and he restores us into a new and living hope.

And here's the anchor sins, dominion. Is broken through that union. It's broken through that gospel. It's broken through all of the good work of Jesus Christ applied onto your behalf and to mine, not through vibes, of course, not through trying hider not through a streak counter. You know, it's not as if we come forward and somehow elevate ourselves to the place of the deserving poor and bring our empty hands and say, I'm now ready to receive our gift.

I think all of us know better than that. When we recognize how sinful and corrupt even we are in the saved state. That is that we still feel that battle that Paul talks about wanting to do these things and not being able to do the very things that I want to do, but the believer. Is joined to Christ in his death and resurrection, and that union changes everything.

I mean, think about that for a second. Joined in his death and his resurrection, like now, both of those things true. You are so tightly coupled and interwoven to those things that cannot be dissolved or separated. And of course that should change everything. If we recognize the weight of that one, it does change our both status, our identity, and it changes our harmony with Christ.

So Owen, I think wants us to see in his writing here that Christianity is not primarily, of course, behavioral modification. It's a whole new reality. That's why, you know, Paul can write, listen, I'm a new creation in Christ, brand new again. He's making all things new. He's making all things new. He's making you new.

He's making me new. It's like the Oprah style. You get new and you get you, and you are getting new when Christ is doing his work. And when is Christ doing his work? Always in his children. So Christ of course, didn't merely come to forgive sins guilt. He also came to break sins rule, and this is like the joy of living in 2026 when we know we have a victorious savior and that that victory applies to us in the here and now as well as when we'll be glorified.

And that matters because some of us only think of salvation like this. Jesus forgives me. God won't punish me, and that's fantastic. I mean, maybe we might go as far to say Jesus forgives me, and so now I have the God's blessing. But it's even more and bigger than that. It's all true. But what Paul is saying here is that's not the whole story.

Grace doesn't just pirate in rebels. Grace transfers rebels into a new kingdom.

[00:22:51] Grace Changes Your Master

[00:22:51] Jesse Schwamb: Grace doesn't merely cancel your debt, it changes your master. So when the New Testament says you're not under sin, but under grace, here's what Owen hears and he's articulating. A new dominion has been installed. A new king now rules with a new principle by the spirit through faith according to Christ.

[00:23:09] Why Do We Still Sin?

[00:23:09] Jesse Schwamb: Now of course, there is a, but I still sin. There's presence versus the power in this, and that's where Owen anticipates the question that every honest, Christian, Christian asks, and I'm sure you have to, and that is okay. Level with me though, practically speaking. If I'm free from Sins Dominion, why do I still sin?

And I love that. One of the great things about puritanical writing is that they love to set this up where they actually create their own objections and put them into the book. So you're, you're reading something, a treatise from some Puritan, and all of a sudden you'll find in the main argument, here's an opposition.

And you might think, I, I wasn't even thinking about that yet, but now I am. And so I think if you didn't think about it yet, you should be asking yourself, well, if I'm really free. From Sin Dominion as you're promulgating, as you're saying in this little treat of the new year, then why in this new year in 2020 6:00 AM I gonna sin?

And I guarantee you, you will sin. And so why? I mean, it's already been. Four days. So for me, there's been a lot of since happened and a lot of grace and forgiveness. So Owen's answer is, uh, comforting and bracing. So, strap in. Here's what he says. He says, you sin because sin remains in you, but it no longer reigns over you.

It's there, but it does not reign over you. You'll may be thinking like this, that's just semantics. Uh, why that doesn't help me at all. Hang in there. I think this is like the meat of what Owen gives us in this new year now, even though he wrote in the 17th century to really give us, to hold onto by the power of the spirit to make changes that are spirit empowered and to move forward with victory and grace.

Understanding that all of that victory, all of that battle belongs to the Lord. So indwelling sin is like a gorilla force. It's active, it's disruptive, and it's often humiliating, but it's not sovereign unless you surrender the throne. I wanna say that again. It is this gorilla force. It is this thing that's trying to act and disrupt and to humiliate you and to bring destruction, but it is not sovereign unless you surrender.

[00:25:11] Owen's Practical Test for Sin

[00:25:11] Jesse Schwamb: And here's a practical test that Owen actually gives us in the book. It's not to torment us, I think, but it's a test to help clarify. And I've been thinking about this and I think you should too. Here's a couple questions. When you sin, do you make peace with it or do you make war on it? Do you hide sin to protect it or do you expose sin to kill it?

Do you justify or do you confess it? And do you plan it, cherish it, defend it, or do you grieve it and fight it? Aren't those good? I mean, stop now and go back like 15 seconds and listen to those again if you need to, and you might, or write those down. Put those in like a little journal as I have and put those before you this year as you evaluate.

Are you surrendering the throne, so to speak on these things? Do you cherish sin? Do you make peace with it? Do you justify it or do you make war on it? Do you expose it and bring it into the light? Do you confess it and do you fight against it? You know, Owen's Pastoral brilliance is that he doesn't say believers never fall.

He says, believers don't settle. And since Dominion is less about some kind of single act and more about a settled arrangement, a covenant with sin and of course with a covenant in Christ is that bigger, better, glorious covenant, the one that restores us, give us abundant life and fulfills us. And if we replace it within any place, a covenant of sin, what we get is not just the, the opposite of that.

But we get sheer destruction. We get darkness, we get blackness. If you're constantly negotiating terms with sin, okay, sin, you can have this corner of my life and I'll keep the rest. Then I think what Paul and Owen would, Owen would say to us here is you're playing with chains. You're literally, we are allowing ourselves to be bound, even if it's in some small way, and to be bound in any ways to be bound overall if you're fighting, even if it's often clumsy like me, often tired, sometimes failing your warfare is probably evidence of grace's reign.

That power of God in your life to bring forward real change for the battle. And this is what we've, Tony and I talk about all the time.

[00:27:23] Ordinary Means of Grace

[00:27:23] Jesse Schwamb: It's this very ordinary means of grace. In other words, like God delights to provide this kind of supply and resource to you, and it's his best way. He doesn't point you to some secret hacks.

There's no, you know, like list of like 20 things you can do in 2026 or probably should have said 26 things you can do in 2026, um, to be. A better follower of Jesus Christ. Instead, he points you to the Spirit working through God's appointed channels, these ordinary means of grace. What are those things again?

This is old truth. For a new year, we know that grace reigns through the word of God. Not merely read, but received, heard with faith, applied with honesty, especially on the Lord's day. Prayer, not as performance, but as dependence, both public and private. The sacraments, the ordinances as God's visible grace to strengthen faith, and then fellowship and accountability because lone sheep Christianity is basically wolf delivery, right?

These things. I think we sometimes set aside in the search for the hacks, the things on YouTube that catch our eye, that say, wouldn't it be an easy way to get outsized and leveraged improvement in my life if I could just do these things? And God says, no, no, no. What I've given to you is these means of grace.

And guess what? They're simple but profound. They're ordinary, but extraordinary in their effect. And they're the word prayer, sacrament, sacraments, and fellowship and accountability. So. Loved ones. We cannot get lost in the sauce on this. These are the things that God gives us. We ought to lean into those things, trust them.

And entrust ourselves to them because Paul is not saying that those things are gonna save you, nor are Owen. He's saying this is how the king's power is experienced in the life of the citizen. And these two mark, the fact that grace reigns and has dominion over our life rather than sin. If you want freedom from sins, daily tyranny, don't just glare at your sin and make speeches.

You know, use the weapons Christ gives because of the hard truth. Owen would gladly press, I think, into our modern habits, and it's this, a neglected bible and a prayerless life do not create, quote unquote, mysterious seasons of spiritual dryness. They create predictable weakness, and that's a really hard truth because I know that we're all busy.

But this idea of spending time, meditating, praying. Crying out to God that these things prevent. In some ways this predictable weakness and the grace reigns in the life where Christ is trusted, and we need these ordinary means to trust ourselves more to Christ, and Christ is trusted. Where Christ is attended to.

And so our attending to Christ happens in these ordinary means. Aren't you glad they're ordinary means? Because if they're, if we had to attend to Christ in extraordinary means, we couldn't even accomplish that. And so the aim then is not gonna be some kinda sinless perfection, but real liberation. I mean, here's the good stuff.

Owen's aim in this treatise is not to make you pretend that you're fine. And I love that because we, we shouldn't, my wife likes to say, I'm fine. It's all fine, everything's fine. And I, I sometimes challenge her and I say, you know, it's okay. That's not fine because there are many things that are just not fine.

We do not have to try to manufacture and sing songs of joy at the grave of Lazarus. You know, Christ's aim in this is to open our eyes to our own depravity, our own contingency, and then to rely on him completely and fully as the savior that he is. The savior that he was when he lived in perfect past of obedience and also died.

And so what we have from him is this promise that he will take care of us in the current state, and that current state draws us closer and closer to him if we recognize it by the power of the Holy Spirit.

[00:31:21] Freedom from Sin's Dominion

[00:31:21] Jesse Schwamb: And so Paul's aim is to help you and me live like someone who has been actually set free. And I think here's what freedom from sins domain means.

It means things like we can say no from the heart, not merely from embarrassment. That as we look at sin and we can look on our savior who is crucified and we can say from the heart, I refuse to participate in that. I know it grieves the Holy Spirit. It grieves God the Father. It grieves God the son. It means that we can confess sin without collapsing in despair.

It means that we can hold these two tensions in reality that we are simultaneously sinner and saint. It can't be 2026 without a little bit of Luther. It means that we can recognize that we are in a great amount of. Full depravity under sins weight without falling in, collapsing into ourselves into complete de depression and despair.

It means that we can fight sin without trying to earn God's love. That God's love itself solidifying us. And identity as his children means that he does give us every supply in dire time of need to fight sin without fearing that we are somehow losing his love in the fight. But that because he loves us, he's with the fight.

In fact, he's the one that underwrites our battle, that equips us with the armor that sends us out with the weapons, knowing that we are in a state of depravity, and that yet he has changed our identity and reset our course, and now equipped us to fight the battle which we find ourselves in as he's with us.

It means that we can pursue holiness. Because we've been adopted and not just because we're trying to audition for God or that we're trying again to earn his favor by merit, it means that the holiness that we seek after now we don't have to worry about some part of our mind is, am I doing this? Because it'll somehow ingratiate God towards me a little bit more, or maybe today if I'm really good, or if I spend 45 minutes in prayer or two minutes in prayer or 10 minutes in the Bible, that I'll have a better day or God will appreciate me more.

He will draw closer to me. Now Owen says, listen, you can pursue holiness when you're under the reign of grace because you've already been adopted and so therefore there's no more performance necessary. There's no more worrying about, there's more guilt about why you do it. There's no more thinking about it in any kinda legalistic terms.

Throw all of that out because you're not auditioning anymore. You're already in the family. I think Owen would absolutely say, if you belong to Christ, your life cannot be a comfortable home for sin. And if you feel in some ways as I do that there are parts of your life where sin is very comfortable, and maybe even before it gets to the door and rings the bell that you're already opening and welcoming it in, then we ought to just pray.

Pray desperately to God that he would make our lives such that they would not be a comfortable home for sin. If he has to break us, if he has to crush us, if he has to cut us, if he has to take us over the anvil as it were of his grace, and strike us with the hammer of the law so that he could mold us in the gospel into some kind of beautiful and useful instrument for his glory, that in 2026 loved ones, we ought to pray that way.

And I know that's. Not an easy way to pray. It is a way though that promises that grace will reign and have dominion over our lives. It's not because God is petty, it's not because grace is fragile, but because a new reign has begun.

[00:35:02] Final Encouragement and Gratitude

[00:35:02] Jesse Schwamb: So here's some final encouragement I think that. Owen gives us in this writing on this, what does it mean to be free from sins Dominion?

Here's what I think he would say is we can't deny the battle. Paul doesn't, and Owen doesn't. He dignifies it. Both of those men do. They tell you that the struggle is real. But they refuse to let you call defeat normal Christianity. Uh, maybe there's no such thing as normal Christianity. 'cause Christianity by itself is something so otherworldly, something so inconceivable.

We at once recognize that the bad news, that sin is prolific, it's destructive. Is hurtful, is so unkind is everywhere, and it hurts us. It hurts the believer and the unbeliever alike. And then this idea, this almost breathtaking, inconceivable idea that God himself loved his creation so much that he would send his own son to come and to bring restoration.

That Revelation 21 style, all things new is. Wild. Of course it's otherworldly because it doesn't make any sense if you're in Christ. The good news is for this year and all others, sin is not your king. Uh, maybe some people like need to hear that again, or maybe there's somebody in the back, you didn't hear it the first time.

If you're in Christ, sin is not your king. That doesn't mean that you'll never feel temptation. It doesn't mean that you'll never have ugly moments. You wish you could erase. It doesn't even mean sanctification is quick, neat, or Instagramable, but it does mean this since Dominion has been broken. Grace now reigns.

Christ is a ruler and the spirit is at work in you and me. So we don't wanna interpret the presence of conflict as the absence of grace. Now sometimes conflict is the very evidence that Grace has moved in and started an eviction. That if you are a rebel against sin, then Grace is ruling and has dominion in your life.

And as you fight, as I fight, here's what we need to remember together. The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare. Yes, but it's warfare under a victorious. King. I mean, Jesus himself is the one raising the flag on the battlefield, calling us out.

So take heart, Christian, take heart. Dear ones, take heart, loved ones. You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. That I think is how John Owen would summarize. Free from Sins Dominion. Sin still dwells, but no longer rules. Grace doesn't just forgive your rebellion.

It overthrows the rebel regime. So I hope that that is in some way a small little treat as advertised for the new year, at least. Something for you and me to think about as we go into 2026. There's so much more. That we could say there is so much that we could talk about in terms of law and gospel and grace and antinomianism.

But I think the most important thing for us to remember is that Christ's grip on us is unbreakable, and that grip ushers us into and sustains us in this dominion of grace. And at the same time when I think Paul and Owen would challenge us with. Is that we need to remember that while Christ rules overall, we ought to examine ourselves and find those places where we do not allow him, or we restrict his rule in movement or we fight against him instead of fighting against the sin.

Which he's empowered us to tackle. Again, this doesn't mean that we'll be perfect, it means that we will continue on sinning, but I hope what you've gotten from Owen and what you've read here from Paul is this idea of the tender-hearted Christian that is. Resilient because of Christ that even in every fall there is a lot of resurrection, and that when we do stumble, that we get back up.

We seek repentance quickly. We keep short accounts with God. We move forward by his love and his power so that there is increasing levels of defeat, of sin, of mortification, of sin according to another work by John Owens in all of those things. I hope that we'll be reminded that in this year ahead there is victory for you and there is victory for me.

So that's the treat loved ones. We'll be back with your regularly scheduled, dual hosted programming very, very, very, very soon. Again, the rumors of Tony's demise have been greatly exaggerated and he will be back to join us. But before we get to the very, very close, there's a couple of things I wanna put before you as the new year begins.

First, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you to everybody. Thank you to people who listen. Thank you, people who will come and hang out in the telegram chat, which by the way, you can get to by going to t Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood. Thank you for those. Who pray for us. Thank you for those who send notes of encouragement.

Thank you for the feedback and thank you for your participation because this was really meant to be a conversation that Tony and I started 10 years ago that really we thought we'd love to have other people join in on. And by God's grace and his design and great providence, they have in a ways that have been like totally unexpected.

The Telegram Chat, for instance, is a way where brothers and sisters from all over the world are hanging out and just loving. Talking about processing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And man, is that a super delight. So do hope maybe in 2026 you'll make it your own resolution to just come poke around in there and coming out with us.

I would love to meet you. So come say hello. The last thing I wanna say thank you for is all of those who give financially to make sure the podcast. Still happens, to be honest with you. It's surprisingly expensive to do the podcast. And so whether it's like the hosting fees or the processing stuff, or just publishing the episodes, making them arrive wherever they arrive so that you can have them in the moment that you expect them to show up is costly.

And so at some point people started to ask, lovely Brothers, sisters said, you know what? I can't give a lot, but could I give a little something to make sure that it just keeps happening so that it moves forward? And so if you're in that place this year and you've thought, you know what? I would love to just give one unit of whatever currency it is and where you live in the world, we would be so happy and humbled for you to do that because that's what so many have done.

And all those little things add up. So if you are thinking, you know what, God has blessed in this podcast, and if he has, we certainly know it's not because of me, and it's not because of Tony. It's because God is good and His word does what His word does. It goes out and never returns void. And we hope that we're just constantly speaking and processing, metabolizing, chewing on that word.

And just bring it before you in conversation, because I know I can speak for Tony. We just love to talk about Jesus. We love God because he first loved us. I'm still constantly, every day amazed, even in this fourth day of the new year that God loves me and that he's for me, that he's with me in this year.

It's an incredible thing, and so if you feel that way too and are wanting to connect or give to something toward that end, we love for you to do that. Uh, here's the logistics. If you wanna do that, just go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood patreon.com/reform brotherhood, and you could give a one time or reoccurring gift.

You could do that in 2026 and a. I wanna say for all those who do that, and by the way, there have been brothers and sisters that have given to this podcast. So you can hear it every week, every time it shows up that have given four years to make that happen. And man, does that undo me because that is such a gift to God's people just allowing us to continue to speak his name and to put it out into the interwebs unapologetically.

And so that there are no Jericho paywalls that need to be torn down. There's no weird ads in the middle of this. There's no annoying bumpers at the beginning of the end. It's just us being able to talk about Jesus, and I love that. Lastly, I say to you, brothers and sisters come along with me and Tony this year.

We've got so many things we want to talk about. The list of parables that we're gonna continue to process together and go through is so big. I just never really have gotten a full appreciation. For all these amazing things that Jesus is teaching in the parables and how many of them there are, and even the ones that are like on the margin, where people are like, well, it could be a parable, it could not.

And we're just like, we're doing 'em all. We're doing 'em all. So I think that's gonna be most of our 2026, but I think we're going to really, really enjoy it together. So we'll be back at that very, very soon. I wish you the best, most profitable, productive, and spiritually filled, abundant year ahead of you. I pray for all of you that I'll be the best one yet, and it will be the best one because you will take seriously.

What Owen and what Paul has challenged us with here, and that is that we ought to ensure that grace has dominion over our lives. So get in there. Get in the battle. Get in the struggle. Embrace those ordinary means. Know that God is for you, and that he's freed you from sins dominion. And until we talk about something else next time, honor everyone.

Love the brotherhood.

In episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood, host Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological question: "Is God humble?" Through a careful examination of Philippians 2 and the narrative of Pharaoh in Exodus, Jesse unpacks how Christ's incarnation represents the ultimate act of divine humility. This episode reveals how Jesus—fully God and fully man—humbled himself through obedience to the point of death on a cross. As we approach the Christmas season, this timely reflection helps us understand that Christ's humility isn't just a theological concept but the very foundation of our salvation and the magnetic force that draws sinners to him. Jesse connects this humility to Jesus' parables about seeking the lost, showing that God's love manifests through the paradox of the exalted one becoming lowly.

Key Takeaways

• Humility is fundamentally a creaturely virtue that acknowledges God as Lord and responds in obedience.
• Christ's incarnation wasn't a subtraction of divinity but an addition of humanity, allowing him to humble himself.
• Divine humility is displayed in Jesus becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross (Philippians 2:8).
• Pride, the opposite of humility, is actively opposed by God throughout Scripture.
• Christ's humility is what draws sinners to him, as seen in the parables of the lost coin, sheep, and son.
• True humility embraces our limitations as creatures and recognizes God's rightful authority.
• Jesus learned obedience through suffering, becoming the perfect high priest who can sympathize with our weaknesses.

The Paradox of Divine Humility

Christ's humility represents one of the most astonishing paradoxes in Scripture. As Jesse explains, humility is properly understood as a creaturely virtue—it acknowledges God as Lord and obeys as a servant. For the eternal Son to humble himself, he first had to take on human nature. The incarnation wasn't God ceasing to be God but rather God adding humanity to himself. The divine Son emptied himself "not of divinity as if that were even possible, but of the privilege of not being human, not being a creature, not suffering the bounds and limitations of finitude and the pains and afflictions of the fallen world."

This emptying makes possible Christ's perfect obedience. Since humility means acknowledging God as Lord and obeying as a servant, the Son took "the form of a servant being born in the likeness of men." This allowed Jesus to demonstrate a servant heart with equal passion for God's holiness and his people's purity. Unlike our inconsistent obedience, Jesus' obedience was "an all the way kind of obedience" that persisted through suffering to death on a cross.

The Magnetic Draw of Christ's Humility

One of the most profound insights from the episode is how Christ's humility functions as a magnetic force drawing sinners to him. Jesse notes that in the parables, tax collectors and sinners were drawn not to the Pharisees' teaching but to Jesus himself. They came "almost magnetically" to be in his presence and hear his words. Why would this be?

The answer lies in recognizing that "we all have a master" and "we are all bound to something." The critical question becomes: "How good and kind is your master?" Christ's humility reveals him to be the perfect master—one who does not lord his authority over us but uses it to serve us, even to the point of death. This servant-hearted humility draws people because it demonstrates love in action. When Jesus humbles himself to seek the lost, he reveals that the gospel isn't about making "naughty people good, but to make dead people alive and alive in him so that their life is hidden within him."

Memorable Quotes

"To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant. In order to do so, then the Son had to take this form of a servant being born in the likeness of men."

"Christ's obedience was an all the way kind of obedience, a true obedience. It wasn't part and parcel, it wasn't peace wise, it didn't be for a part of time, as long as it was comfortable and then try something else."

"To humble oneself is not to be less than human. It rather is pride that is our cancer. It's pride that corrodes our true dignity. To humble ourselves is to come even ever closer, step by step to the bliss, I think, and the full flourishing for which we're made."

Full Transcript

[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: So how did Jesus humble himself and this we could spend loved ones in eternity and likely will. Talking about how did he do this By becoming obedient. It wasn't even mean to. Here is the one who is the God man. Truly God. Truly man. To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant in order to do so.

Then the son had to take this form of a servant being born in a likeness of men. Again, this is so rich because I think without understanding the servant heart of Christ, where there is a power and a passion in Christ for the holiness of God that is at the same time equaled with the passion for the purity and the holiness of his people.

Welcome to episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast where all of mankind is on the naughty list. Hey, brothers and sisters, I am solo hosting once again on this episode, but I don't want you to worry. Tony will be back. Tony is alive and well. He is out in the wild doing his thing.

Actually, this is probably the time of year where Tony and I bring forward that annual or perennial denial. You know, the one, it's sy against the frailty, weakness, contingency of humankind. And most often manifested in this time of year in sickness. So I don't know where you live in the world, but in my part of the world, everybody's getting it and everything is going around.

The sickness is everywhere. And even if you're bobbing and weaving, if you're laying low, if you're trying to keep your head down, it just seems somehow. To snipe you. And so it sniped Tony last week and this week. Now it is his family and so he's doing what we shall do for another. He's caring for those in his own regard that are sick and unwell.

And so that means it's just me on this particular episode, but not to fear. We've got lots of great things to talk about.

[00:02:12] The Question: Is God Humble?

[00:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: In fact, the whole purpose of this episode is going to be talking about this question is God humble and. This, if you think it's just a one-off episode. It's actually born out of this continued series that we're doing where we're going through the parables.

And again, we've been talking a lot about lostness and finding things and Christ coming and seeking, saving those things that were very lost. And so as I continue to process this with Tony, one of the things that keeps coming to my mind is this question is God. Humble and what does that even have to do with any of these wild parables that we've been talking about?

You know the ones too, especially if you've been listening along and hopefully you have go back, check those bad boys out. We've been talking about the lost coin, the lost Sheep, and we have yet to get to because we're just teasing this for you. We, we keep telling you it's coming, but that's just to build like this amazing anticipation for the parable of the lost son or the prodigal son.

It's coming, and part of that, again, for me is wrapped up in this question, is God humble? So let's talk about that a little bit.

[00:03:13] Humility in Scripture

[00:03:13] Jesse Schwamb: It's interesting to me that throughout the scriptures, we find across both all the New Testament, that God gives us this imperative to seek humility or to put on humility, or to have a humble mind, as Peter says.

And it's something that is so ubiquitous that we kind of just flies by us. Of course. Like we would get the sense that it would be ridiculous to be like. I am so good at being humble that that in itself is oxymoronic. And yet we also know that we don't want to advertise, that we're trying to seek after humility.

'cause it seems like that's the very thing that we're trying to avoid in proclaiming or promulgating our pride and that kind of thing. But it's not just that, of course, God is seeking his children to be humble, but I think one of the most condemning things the scripture says to us about how God behaves.

Toward people is that he opposes the proud. So the opposite of being humble, and we'll get to that in a second. We had to define what that means, but let's just take for a second that the opposite of that might be being prideful. It is fascinating that it's not just God is indifferent toward pride, that he does everything in his volition to push against it.

And of course, because nothing can thwart the outstretched in mighty arm of God, that means that he wins inevitably against all that is pride prideful. And so he opposes it. And this is what. We should realize is that really the eschatological judgment, the fact that there is both heaven and hell reward and eternal punishment.

This is a reflection of God opposing the proud that in the final state, the one who says, I want nothing to do with God because I can take care of it myself, is the one that God must oppose pose because he always. Opposes that which is prideful, and so it makes sense. Then if he opposes the proud, if that is in a way, an enemy that he will ultimately defeat, it cannot stand up against him that shouldn't.

That in that path is both destruction that is internally derived and chosen, but also destruction that comes externally because it will be defeated. Then the best thing that God's people could be is to be humble. And so the question I think then persists, can God be humble? Is God. Humble. One of the things that is clear in scripture, again, this is the testimony of the entire arc of the salvific story of God and his recu of his people.

Um, the coming and drawing close giving of himself so that he might draw people onto himself. Is that the testimony of humility is both positive and negative in the scriptures. So we could look at examples of those who humbled themselves. That's what the scripture says, like Josiah, Hezekiah, Rebo, Ahab, Vanessa, and then there, of course, you could probably think of as just as many negative examples who did not.

What comes to my mind, of course, is Pharaoh. Or am Amen or Zetia. So what becomes clear though is when you look at those examples that the humbling first belongs to the hand of God. That even here, once again, God's doing all the verbs. That's exactly what he does. And so this idea of even like humbling yourself.

Has like a precursor, there's an antecedent. And is God doing some kind of great work to allow for this humbling to even take place? He initiates the humbling of his creatures. And once he has, then the question confronts us, uh, which is, are we going to receive it? How will we bear up underneath it? Will we submit ourselves to it because God has allowed us, or has humbled ourselves first so that we don't respond in kind.

So in response to his humbling hand. Will we kick against him? Or as the, you know, king James version says, will we kick against the gods or are we going to come and humble ourselves before God? So this idea, I think of humbling ourselves isn't just like you wake up one day and you say, no, it'd be really fantastic.

Is my life would be better if I was just humble. I, I hear that God opposed to the proud, I don't wanna get. Lost in that. I don't wanna get wrapped in that. I would rather, instead I just become more humble. Even the ability to humble oneself first comes from this humbling hand of God, which is of course the greatest gift.

And so of course Peter writes, humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God. I mean, that's where I'm drawing this from and. That is the first descent of humility. The first coming down is a word that God would do that for us, will put us in a place that we might be humbled. And then the creature has somewhat in his turn kind of imperfect language, but somehow in his response that God is humbling me.

Will I embrace it? Will I humble myself? So given that background, I think you know exactly where I'm about to go in the scripture, and that is. The pretty, I would say, epic passage of humility, which is Philippians two. It's one of the most striking assertions in all of scriptures. That Christ himself, Jesus the Savior, the one who is truly God and truly man, he humbled himself and God himself truly divine, truly human, and the person of his son, he humbles himself.

And I think that is worth the slow meditation and a little bit of marveling again, as we consider that in light of. All that happens in these parables about lostness and ness is coming from in some way this first humility. And I think that's just so critical because it's not just context, it's the air in which we breathe and operate and understand who we are and who we are in Christ.

And so I think before like we even assume. I wanna assume like too much about like this idea of humility and then getting it ultimately to this question is God humble, which you may think I just answered by reading Philippians two eight, but in fact I think it's even more complex and more beautiful and more deeply layered than all of that.

I think it's worth for a second, just thinking about this idea of like, what is humility?

[00:08:35] Pharaoh's Pride vs. Humility

[00:08:35] Jesse Schwamb: And as far as I can tell, really the first mention of humility outright, like outright mention explicit notation in the scriptures comes in that showdown between Egypt's Pharaoh and Yahweh mediated through Moses and.

And I picked this because it's really instructive for getting a sense of how the Bible, how the scripture, the Holy Spirit is apprehending this word and driving it into the context so that we might learn from it, so that later on we're told that we ought to exhibit humility, put on humility that we understand it in the way that God has taught it to us.

And so you'll remember. Probably that Moses dared to appear before Pharaoh. He is an Exodus five, and he speaks on Yahweh's behalf, and it's that famous sentence, that famous imperative, let my people go to, which Pharaoh replies in my paraphrase, listen, I don't know who Yahweh is. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't listen to his voice. I don't acknowledge him, and therefore you can't go. It's just not gonna happen. What is incredible about this. What I think is like really illustrative for our lives is that Pharaoh swollen in pride here, and again, God's gonna pose him swollen with all of this. Pride has, it's not that he hasn't thought through what he's saying here, it's just that he's made an incredible miscalculation.

He actually did a little mathematics here as the creature, and he decides that. As a creature in relation to the creator God that he does not need to obey. In other words, he does not acknowledge or recognize or know this God, and because he doesn't know any of those things about Yahweh, then he's well within his reason to come to the conclusion that he does not need to obey and therefore he refuses.

The reason why I think that's so critical and a little bit wild is that is exactly what the natural man is prone to do to make this miscalculation built on even some kind of reasonable logic, so to speak. That says, well, because I don't understand it, because I don't see it, because I can't acknowledge it because I've never heard it.

Therefore, it cannot exist. It doesn't exist. It's not worthy of being obeyed. It's a bit like saying, just because I've never seen fire, that's not hot. And so it's crazy here that in the midst of all of that, we could say Pharaoh has made this enormous miscalculation. And so what he's going to do is he's going to essentially oppose God.

He refuses to obey, and then of course, Exodus 10 as we move. This story describes this call to humility, and it is a call to humility, which when I was thinking back through this, I was like, this is wild. Because we tend to think this story as like submission and beating down and humility might not be the principle word.

That comes to our mind when we think about how Har Pharaoh has to ultimately respond. But after seven plagues on the cusp of the eighth plague, God speaks to Pharaoh, and again, he's listen. He says to him, how long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? So fascinating because we have this. Humbling, mighty hand of God, the outstretched work of God, his hand and arm going out into the world of his creation and putting Pharaoh in a particular place and position.

And the piercing question in this context of this extended powerful encounter gives us this glimpse into the heart of humility, which I think is this humility recognizes and obeys the one who is truly. God. So there's not just an intellectual scent, but an experiential knowledge that comes from the revelation of who God is that is under his purview granted to his people, and that then causes us to acknowledge and obey the one who's truly Lord.

It's exact opposite of affairs response, which again says, I don't know that voice. I've never heard it. Who is Yahweh? And instead it's replaced with a humility that acknowledges that God is Lord of all, that Jesus Christ is one only son, and that his Holy Spirit is with and indwells his people and that he is truly Lord.

So humility entails this kind of right view, I think of self. Because Pharaoh Miscalculates, but the humble person makes the right calculus, the one who is created by God and accountable to God, which requires the right view of God as creator and this authority in relation to all his creatures. And so humility then is of course, like not a preoccupation with self or one's, even one's own lowness only in so much as it's in relation to what we just mentioned.

That's a right view of self. It's an agreement with God. Of course confession coming alongside agreeing with God, but it's a mindful and conscious understanding of who God is and his highness, his holiness, that he's high and lifted up, and then the self in respect to his position. You know, that's one of the things that I think always strikes me about humility is that it's this idea and this acknowledgement that God is high and lifted up.

And so while we don't come too hard on ourselves merely because we want to create a pity party, it's a recognition that. Aside from the mediator work of Christ to to stand in the presence of God would to be literally torn asunder by the molecule because his holiness cannot be, or rather, I would say our sinfulness cannot be in this presence of the one who is perfect in majesty and in righteousness, in intellect, and in in comprehension and creativity.

We cannot exist in that space apart from this mediated work of Christ the beautiful. Be editorial, like benevolent distance, so to speak, that Christ creates so that we might come into the presence of God, as Hebrew says, running as it were, coming in, not haphazardly, but purposefully into the throne room of God because.

And his holiness. He's a way to, he's made a way for him to be just and justifier. That is incredible. Loved ones. It's beautiful. And that is all. Again, I think just underneath this parable, it's starting with this sense of humility has brought all of this into play, and it's a critical part of God's design and plan.

There's a condescension, but I think even here, underneath that condescension is something about humility. That is worth discussing. And there is, the question again, is God humble. So put it another way. Humility, I think embraces the reality that you and I. We're not God. You know, pride led to humanity's fall when Adam and Eve desired to be like God, which is contrary to his command and humility would have obeyed his command, which is what we'll see when we come to Christ and especially Christ's work.

So.

[00:15:06] Christ's Humility and Obedience

[00:15:06] Jesse Schwamb: It strikes me then, and this is why I threw out this question, is like, is God humble? It's kind of a setup, I'll be honest, because all of I said so far, if you are keeping score at home, you probably should be drawing out then that I'm essentially saying that humility is a creaturely virtue. Actually, it's not just me.

A lot of people have said that, a lot of the old ones. I postulate that, that when we think about humility explicitly and in a narrow context, that's a creaturely virtue. It's a posture of. All of who we are, our soul, our body, our life, our activities, our families, our possessions. It's acknowledgement in those things and embracing that the goodness of God and that he is the one who controls and commands all things, all of our destiny, which means.

This question is God humble? It is kind of like linguistically and theologically tricky, like not for the sake of creating a tricky question for like a part of the game, but the the answer is in a sense, no, but not because God, I think is the opposite of what we'd consider humble. He's not arrogant, he's not prideful.

Rather, humility is a creaturely virtue and he's God. So we need to be again, in this appropriate separation of our state and who God is, recognizing that those are two very different things. All of this though, I think, contributes to moving us in a direction of understanding, well, what does this mean then?

For Jesus Christ, the God man, the one who humbled himself. You've probably been screaming the entire time. Will you get to that? What about that? And I think that is the critical question that is behind everything that we're reading about. In these parables. In other words, why is Jesus this way? What has brought him into this particular place to say these particular things to these people?

We talked last time about how one of the things that's remarkable is that all of these sinners, like the down out, the broken, the marginalized, the pariahs, they were all drawn to Jesus teaching, not even drawn. I mean, there's distinction not drawn to the Fara teaching, to the rules of the law, but drawn to Jesus, almost magnetically coming to him.

Compelled as it were, to be in his presence, to hear the things he was saying. Captivate, I mean, can you imagine yourself there? Not necessarily there in that environment, but captivated again by the teachings of Jesus, how good they are, how true they are, how incredible they are. And so I think it's possible for us to marvel then at that remarkable word then from the impossible, Paul, when he says that Christ humbled himself in Philippians two, eight.

And no, I think that that confirms our definition above of humanity, uh, of. Humility rather as being something in humanity, of being a, a creaturely virtue in that the eternal son first became a man. That's what Paul says in verse seven, and then humbled himself in verse eight. And I'm gonna submit to you that this is really the one of the most epic parts of the gospel that.

This is the only way we can get this kind of humility, this humbling of God is if first he comes to undertake the creaturely virtue so that then he himself or become rather, lemme say it this way, I'm getting too excited, loved ones. It's rather that we first must have God become a creature, so to speak, not emptying himself as we'll.

Talk about. Of, of his godness, but instead taking on this flesh so that he might humble himself be to be like his children who must be humbled and in fact will ultimately be humbled in the ES eschaton no matter what they believe. And so the verb Paul uses to capture the action of the incarnation is, is not humbled here first, but it's this idea of emptied.

So again, Philippians two is verse six and seven. Paul writes, being in the form of God, Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant and being born in the likeness of man. And so this movement.

[00:18:59] The Incarnation and Humility

[00:18:59] Jesse Schwamb: From heaven to earth, which if you're listening to this in more or less real or New York time, as we're coming into the season of the calendar where we celebrate the incarnation, again, I've been thinking so much about this beautiful gift of the incarnation, and I've been thinking about that in light of Jesus coming to seek and to save the lost and this real heart to hearts kind of way where he's speaking the truth to the people who need to hear it most, and they're drawn magnetically to him, into his teaching.

And so that movement. From Heaven to earth is an emptying. It's the divine son emptying himself, not of divinity as if that were even possible, but of the privilege of not being human, not being a creature, not suffering the bounds and limitations of finitude and the pains and afflictions of the fallen world.

I think a lot, honestly, especially this time of year, I think a lot about strange things like Jesus has fingernails and blood vessels and eyeballs and hair and toes. And shins and knee bones, you know, all of these things. Because to me it's this incomprehensible reality that God loves me so much that he would send his only son to be a creature, but in a way that was limited to the same creatureliness that I have.

And then would forever, in a way, in his glorified state, identify still with that creature. And only in that process could he come and humble himself. I mean, that's incredible. I mean. Could not have grasped like the divine privilege of not being subjected to the rules and realities of creation. But instead, he empties himself by taking our humanity.

He was emptying not by subtraction of identity, but by addition of humanity. This is the taking, the taking on, and this allows him then to become obedient and in that obedience, that passive and act of obedience. What we find is that Christ is able to say these very things that are exemplified in the parables, that this is the height of God, and he says, it is in your midst.

The kingdom of God is here and I am the kingdom, and it's all because he has come in such a way. To empty himself again, where that was not a subtraction of divinity, but addition of humanity. It is an amazing and glorious truth. It's the thing upon which like turns all of salvation and all of the world that God would do this and do it so completely that again, it's finalized, it's complete, it's already done.

So first, Jesus became a man. And then as a man came the ly virtue, he humbled himself. And Paul confirms what we learned about humility. In the negative example, I think in Pharaoh of Pharaoh in Nexus 10 and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

[00:21:49] Christ's Obedience to Death

[00:21:49] Jesse Schwamb: So how did Jesus humble himself and this we could spend loved ones in eternity and likely will. Talking about how did he do this By becoming obedient. It wasn't even mean to. Here is the one who is the God man. Truly God. Truly man. To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant in order to do so.

Then the son had to take this form of a servant being born in a likeness of men. Again, this is so rich because I think without understanding the servant heart of Christ, where there is a power and a passion in Christ for the holiness of God that is at the same time equaled with the passion for the purity and the holiness of his people.

And those two things come together and coalesce in the gospel because we know that righteousness and holiness is completely vouched, safe to God. It's under his purview and his control, and it comes to his people when he draws close. That's how it was in the Old Testament, and that's how it was in the New Testament.

And so as Christ in human form is coming and drawing near to his people, he's preaching this good news message that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood will have salvation and eternal life in him So intimately wrapped up that again, he hasn't just come. In the Christmas season to make naughty people good, but to make dead people alive and alive in him so that their life is hidden within him, and therefore, because he's the indestructible life, your life and mine cannot be destroyed either.

I. So it is this amazing mark of the fullness of humanity and identification with us that he didn't just come on special terms. You know, I often think it's not like God on a deck chair laid out looking down as a creation separate as he were, as it were, just observing and kind of more or less interjecting here and there.

It wasn't Jesus coming at. Arms length, distance. It wasn't God snatching him up when the frustrations of our limits or the pains of our world fell him. He had the full human experience. He was all in fully human and body mind. Hearts will and surroundings. Fully human in our finitude and all of this frustrations that we share that are just part of our lives, fully human in.

Vulnerability to the worst of the civil world can work. Clearly that's manifested in his ign Ammonious death. Nor was he at the bottom spared the very essence of being human. He was accountable to God. Even there, that humility is incredible, that he himself learned, undertook, became obedient so that he would be accountable to God a father.

Hebrews five celebrates this. Exactly. I love this set of words. Although Jesus was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered and being made perfect. He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. And if he is our first brother, then the calling that we have is to do exactly the same, to come before him, to obey him and to see him as the one who is high and lift it up.

But that self humbling, that humiliation doesn't just stop with obedience. And that's why the apostle keeps going. It says to the point of death, how far did it take him? How far did he go? How far was he willing to go? Volitionally all the way. To the point of death. And Christ obedience was an all the way kind of obedience, a true obedience.

It wasn't part and parcel, it wasn't peace wise, it didn't be for a part of time, as long as it was comfortable and then try something else. You know, of course, even in the garden when he's praying and the disciples are with the in your shot and he asked that the cup might pass, we might reasonably ask what other option was there.

And so here even Christ says. Even to the point of death, forsaking all other things, real obedience endures in obedience, which is a really difficult thing. And so I'm grateful because my obedience is peace wise, it is part and parcel, it is weak, it is feeble. And instead we have Christ who is transferred all of his righteousness into our account.

And all of that righteousness is because of real obedience that he undertook, endured in obedience. And so Christ did not begin obedience and then surrender disobedience once the greatest threats loomed even in the garden. There he again. He is coming before the father and he is continuing to obey. He's humbled.

So I think God does indeed command our humility and one of the ways that he can command that it, well, there's many ways. First and foremost, by fiat, he's God and his character demands it. The second way is that, again, coming back to these parables. Finally, and lastly, we see that Christ is exhibiting great humility in the message that he's bringing forward and all of this, that he comes forward to save and all of the seeking that he undertakes, he conspires with God in humility to bring his children.

Into the fold. There was no other way without this incredible humility of Christ, this humility that shows us that it's not denigrating of humanity, but it's God's image shining in its fullness. That this is the very thing he comes to restore and to humble oneself is not to be less than human. It rather it is.

Pride that is our cancer. It's pride that corrodes our true dignity to humble ourselves is to come even ever closer, step by step to the bliss, I think, and the full flourishing for which we're made. And Christ exemplifies that very thing. And I submit to you loved ones. It's that very humility. This is what I buried the lead on last week.

It's that very humility that draws the sinner. Because we all have a master. We are all slaves to something, which I know is really unpopular to say, but hear me out. We are all stuck on something. We are all bound into something. It's just like we say with worship, it's not whether we not, we choose to worship.

It's what we worship and we are what we worship. All those things are true. All those cliches stand and if they're true, then the opposite is true and that is that we're all bound to something. The question is how good and kind is your master. The thing in which you are bound to the thing which you choose to serve and submit to how life giving is that thing.

And the humility of Christ clarifies that not all of our hum lings are owning to our own sin that Christ had. None, none. Yet he humbled himself. Sometimes repentance is the first step in self humbling. Other times it's not. Our self humbling may often come in response to our exposure to sin, but even in Christ sinless as he was.

He heeded the father's call to humble himself. And so I think for us, as we think about what it means then to go and study these parables, we first even need to humble our understanding, our cognizance, our reasoning, our logic, that the scripture as given by God as his very word to us, stand so far above us.

That while we study it and we interrogate it, that we dare not stand in opposition to it because it is the high and lofty command of God for us because he's good and his love endures forever. So I hope that as we continue to build into this next step of looking at this final lost parable, that we can all continue to just appreciate and boast in the God man who in his humility, makes the gospel possible, and that in his humility shows.

A greater sense of what it means to have the abundant life. And we have to take Jesus at his word, loved ones when he says like He's come, not just to give life, but to give it in abundance that that is a real quantity, and that the humility of Christ in his life and death and resurrection testifies to one of God's clearest and most memorable promises in all of scripture.

That again, he humbles the proud and he exalts the humble. So it was with Christ. He humbled himself and God has highly exalted him. I remember reading John Owen writing about. Justification and Christ's time of suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and his preparation for the cross and inevitably his, his forsaking, his forsakenness on that cross and how Jesus himself entrusted his justification to God the Father, which I think is a.

A, a conception that will make your mind do a somersault. I mean, think about it long enough that even Jesus himself in learning obedience and taking upon himself the full measure of what it was to sit under the law and then to obey it perfectly, was still going to his death, knowing that he was gonna be the greatest sinner who ever lived yet was gonna be the one without sin, having committed any, that he himself was entrusting all of that he had accomplished and who he was.

To God the father, to justify him and his resurrection on the third day loved ones is proof positive that he is the savior. That we all long for that in our sickness right now, as in our world, as all these things groan, as they all say, in some way, maratha, Lord, come quickly, that we are acknowledging that Jesus Christ is the one.

Who in his complete humility satisfied the law of God to such degree that he was justified before God the father, and raised TriNet on the third day as proof positive that he is in fact the Savior, the chosen one, the Messiah, the first brother, the firstborn among the dead, the serpent crusher. The one who will come and redeem all of his people.

So I hope there's something in there for you that's an encouragement that lifts up as if they were even possible to do more than they already are. That lifts up these parables that we've been talking about, that it's not just, of course, that Jesus on this mission because. He's full of love. His love predated all of this.

Now, this is why we keep coming back to, uh, all Christians at all times, in all heirs. John three 16, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. Now whosoever should believe in him. Now, all the believing ones should have eternal life, and that eternal life is purchased by the blood of Christ and through his humility, but also it is a, a stark reminder that love always leads to giving.

And here we have God the father, giving his son Unreservedly for us, becoming Creature Lee, so that he might undertake the humility of the creature. And in so doing fully, not just, I would say identify with who we are, but become like us in every a. Way yet without sin, which is why can we rejoice that even now in the sound of my voice or yours, wherever you are, there is Jesus Christ in Heavenly Rumble.

Before the God the Father interceding perfectly as this incredible representative, as the scriptures are, he says, as this best of all, the high priests, the perfect one. Who is ushering us in to bend the ear, as it were of God because of what he's accomplished on our behalf. Man, that is good news. And if it's not good news and you don't think it is, you better check your pulse.

Check it right now.

[00:33:20] Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser

[00:33:20] Jesse Schwamb: So you need to come back. And listen to the next episode because we are, I mean, I think assuming everybody's healthy, Lord willing, we're gonna talk about the Prodigal Son and really wrap up this culmination of the lost parables. But of course, you know that I'm contractually obligated to say to you all.

That you don't have to just wait to interact until the next podcast. You can come hang out with us, and I gotta say it again for all the people in the back. The way that you do that is this little app called Telegram. You might be using Telegram already to message with your friends and your family. If so, you might not have known that.

There's also a little group within Telegram for the Reform Brotherhood. Everybody who listens, everybody wants to hang out and talk about theology or life share prayer requests. It's all happening right there, and I promise you, you will not be disappointed if you come check it out. So you're probably saying enough already.

Tell me how to do that. Alright, here's what you do. Get a piece of paper, stop the car, put down the backhoe for a second, and listen up. You go to your favorite browser and you type in t me slash reform brotherhood. T. Me Reform Brotherhood. Come hang out with us. Come talk about the episode, and until then, everybody stay.

Well keep your head down. Don't list sick sickness night people. But remember, even if it does, you have this great high priest who endured obedience, in obedience to bring you abundant life, to identify with you, to resonate with you, to give you the love of God, and to finally conquer sin, death, and the devil.

I say loved ones, so until next time, you know what to do. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.

In this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological underpinnings of Jesus' parables in Luke 15. With co-host Tony Arsenal absent due to illness, Jesse takes listeners through the "deleted scenes" – insights and reflections that often occur off-mic – about the parables of the Lost Sheep and Lost Coin. These stories reveal God's relentless pursuit of sinners and set the stage for the upcoming discussion of the Prodigal Son parable. Jesse unpacks how these parables demonstrate not just God's willingness to receive sinners, but His active seeking of them – a grace that doesn't merely find us willing but makes us willing. This episode serves as a theological bridge, slowing listeners down to fully appreciate the scandal of God's love before diving into Jesus' most famous parable.

Key Takeaways

• Context Matters: The parables of Luke 15 are Jesus' response to the Pharisees' grumbling about Him receiving sinners and eating with them. This historical context reveals the radical nature of Christ's ministry compared to the religious establishment.
• Grace Makes Us Willing: Drawing from Thomas Watson's quote, Jesse explains that God's grace doesn't find us willing to repent but actually creates that willingness in us – a foundational concept in Reformed theology.
• The Initiative of God: In all three parables, God is portrayed as the active seeker. The shepherd searches for the sheep, the woman sweeps for the coin, demonstrating that salvation begins with God's initiative, not ours.
• The Scandalous Love of Jesus: Christ's approach to sinners appeared scandalous to religious leaders because it violated their understanding of who deserved God's attention.
• Christ's Sympathetic Identification: Jesus doesn't just save us from a distance but enters into our suffering, identifying with us in our pain while remaining sinless.
• Heaven's Joy Over Salvation: The parables reveal God's extraordinary joy over each individual sinner who is saved, showing that the entire cost of redemption would be worth it even for just one person.
• From Death to Life: Drawing from Colossians 2, Jesse emphasizes that Jesus didn't come to make bad people good but to make dead people alive, canceling our certificate of debt through His cross.

The Scandal of Divine Initiative

The religious establishment of Jesus' day operated on the principle that religion was for "good people" – those who could maintain moral standards and ritual purity. When tax collectors and sinners were drawn to Jesus, the Pharisees were scandalized not just by Jesus' association with them, but by the possibility that these "hopeless cases" might be included in God's kingdom. This context sets up the revolutionary nature of Jesus' parables.

As Jesse explains, "Religion by itself cannot help any of those people. Can't help pariahs in that way, and so it did no good then to command the good people to mix with the bad people, and then to treat them kindly and tell them of new possibilities." What makes Christianity utterly unique is that it begins not with human initiative but with divine pursuit. God in Christ actively seeks those who are lost, not waiting for them to clean themselves up or take the first step. This complete reversal of religious expectations demonstrates why these parables were and remain so radical.

Grace That Transforms Our Unwillingness

The Reformed theological principle that Jesse highlights through Thomas Watson's quote – "Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing" – strikes at the heart of human pride and misconception about salvation. Left to ourselves, we don't merely lack the ability to come to God; we actively resist Him.

Jesse elaborates: "How good of God that He would send His Son unto us while we were yet His enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against Him." The wonder of grace is not just that God forgives when we repent, but that He creates the very repentance within us. This is why the shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to find the one – the sheep doesn't find its own way home. This is the beating heart of Reformed soteriology: salvation is entirely of the Lord, from first to last, which makes it secure and gives all glory to God alone.

Memorable Quotes

"God seeking us is the foundation of seeking Him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes us willing. That is the Reformed theology."

"He's not this like sinless Superman. What I mean by that is... it takes out the humanity of Christ. It takes out this feeling heart of Christ as if to like separate him so much from us. But the beauty of these parables is... Christ puts himself close to us in that he feels like us, though he is not us, and that is the heart. That is where his power of coming to save is brought into our lives."

"Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He also has taken it out of the way. Having nailed it to the cross. How good is that sentence?"

Full Transcript

[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: It reminds me of this quote from. Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes.

Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him.

Welcome to episode 473 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for Lost Sheep and Lost Coins. Hey, brothers and sisters, you're listening to another episode of The Reformed Brotherhoodhood, but you've probably already noticed. That we are missing my co-host and my brother Tony, who regrettably was taken up ill this week, and so in his convalescence, I'm coming at you with a solo episode and what are you probably asking is worth listening to in the solo episode?

Well, I have a proposal for you. So often what happens is when Tony and I sit down. And we record a beautiful, robust conversation, the definitive kind of talk on some topic. We shut off the microphone. And then of course he and I continue to talk to one another. And what often happens is somehow, like a second or a third episode basically starts because we go back to what we were talking about before and we have some kind of new insight or something new that we wanted to say that didn't make it into the episode.

[00:01:56] Deleted Scenes and Parables Overview

[00:01:56] Jesse Schwamb: And so this episode is gonna be about some of those deleted scenes if you were, were like the things that. We talked about, but didn't make it into some of our recent conversations about the parables, these three parables of the Lost Sheep, the lost coin, and now The Lost Son. Now I know what you're thinking, and I made a promise to Tony.

We're not gonna get to the Prodigal son on this episode. That is something he and I are looking forward to discussing with one another and with you. So that will be next week. But on this little episode, I thought it was best to slow down just for a second and to give you, again, some of those things we've been talking about as we've been thinking about lostness, and to set that up as a precursor to wet your appetite just a little bit for this biggest of all of the parables, maybe the most well-known parable in the entire universe.

The parable of the prodigal son, which again, is coming for you, but not on this one. Don't even get me started. How dare you. Now, normally if this were a traditional episode, you would hear that ous segue from me that goes something like this. Hey Tony, are you affirming with or denying again, something on this episode?

And because it's just me, it'd be super weird to do something atenol with just myself.

[00:03:17] Affirmations and Community Engagement

[00:03:17] Jesse Schwamb: I figured it is high time for me to give you a particular affirmation, so here's what I'm gonna do. I am affirming with you like you brother and sister listening. I truly am affirming with you because as the year draws to close, I was thinking just again, how grateful I am for everybody who hangs out, everybody who listens, everybody who gives to the reformed brotherhood, because we all do it together.

Nothing happens by accident. Nothing shows up in your podcast feed without somebody taking care of the attendant costs, without people lending their voices, without conversation around it. And if you're wondering, well, who are these other people? Because I thought it was just you too. There are brothers and sisters from all over the world who are looking to follow closely after Lord Jesus Christ, wanting to process theology and wanting to do so in a way that makes us better and more obedient toward our loving savior.

And in serving those around us. And the good news is you also can just connect with us and with them. And the best way to do that, as we've said so many times before, but I'm gonna say it one more time for everybody in the back, is you can join our Telegram group. Telegram is just a messaging app, and we've carved out just a little corner of that app so that people that are listening to the podcast can come hang out and talk about.

Whatever you want. So the way to do that is go to any browser, pick your favorite one, and just type in t me slash reform brotherhood, t me slash reform brotherhood, and that link will get you there. You can also do another thing. You can go to reform brotherhood.com. The podcast does have a website, believe it or not, and on that website, reform brotherhood.com live, all of the other episodes we have ever recorded.

And so you can search those by topic about what's going on in them. You can find all kinds of different things to listen to. You'll also find a link there if in fact you would like to also support the podcast. So we are so grateful for so many brothers and sisters. Who have decided, you know what? I've been blessed by the conversations by the community, and I wanna make sure that it remains that way free of charge to everyone.

And they're the ones along with us that are shouldering that burden, and I'm so grateful. So you can find a link there if in fact you are so inclined to give so. Brothers and sisters, I'm affirming with you it's time that I did that, and I'm so grateful for all of you. And again, the purpose of this little episode is to spend a little bit of time getting ready, getting after it.

[00:05:42] The Parables' Context and Significance

[00:05:42] Jesse Schwamb: For this, the biggest of all, the granddaddy of all the parables, the parable of the prodigal son and I, as I was thinking about this episode, it occurred to me it's a bit like, I don't know where you live. Where I live, there are these signs on the road that can script the speed at which you can travel on those roads at least legally.

Right, and I was thinking about this as I was driving the other day, that I have a road with a speed limit. Say it's 50 miles an hour, but there is a bend in this road. And on that bend as I approach it, there's another sign of a different color that's more suggestive and it's a lower speed limit. It's as if to say, listen, I know you can travel at 50, but what might be wise right now is to slow it down so that you don't veer off the road because.

As you take this turn, what's best practice, what's most safe for you is to slow down for a second. And I was kind of thinking about that as we were going into these parables. We wanna get to the parable of the prodigal sun. It's dramatic, it's dynamic. There's all kinds of lovely details in it. It's exciting.

We've got people now finally, whereas we had intimate objects in agriculture, now we're getting to human family dynamics and interrelations and all this activity. And it's good. We should wanna get there, but I'm kind of feeling like it's a bit like that sign that says, you know what? We might wanna slow down for a second before you turn into this parable.

Why don't you take this curve at a slightly slower speed? And so hence this little tiny episode to bring to you again, some of those deleted scenes. Some of the things that Tony, I've been talking about that never have quite made it into all of the recordings, because they probably happened before afterwards and the recording button had already been disabled.

So. Let me give you the thing that I think, Tony, I've been talking about a lot and we've definitely been thinking about, and that is again, going back to like, why did these parables even come up? Like was it Jesus volition just to start talking about this stuff? Why is it that there are three versions of it?

Why are they kind of escalating and growing in magnitude? There's clearly a crescendo coming. Hopefully you're hearing it. Like it's picking up, the pace is moving, the volume is increasing, and the stakes are getting higher and higher and higher. So what gives why all of this? And I think we gotta go back to Luke 15.

Of course. We gotta look at just that first verse because to me.

[00:08:00] The Heart of Reformed Theology

[00:08:00] Jesse Schwamb: In Luke 15, this is some of like the best comfort food of the gospel, don't you think? I mean, in this, it's like the warmest, richest passage, almost all the gospels in terms of the presentation of this really good news. And you know, these stories aren't just sentimental tales.

They actually reveal the beating heart of reform, theology, the beating, passionate love. And heart of Christ for his people. This truth that God is the one who seeks, saves, and rejoices over sinners. And so we gotta start in context because it's precisely because of that beating heart, that initiative, that volition, that Christ brings all of this up, but he brings it up in response to something that's happening.

And that's where we get in verse one. Now, the tax collectors and sinners we're all drawing near to him. I think sometimes we run, at least I do way too past. Fast past that verse, the tax collectors and the sinners we're all drawing near to him. It should be the kind of thing like talk about things that make you go, Hmm, why?

Why are we getting that now? That specific indicator here that they're drawing near. And then not only that it's being told to us, but of course what was it about Christ that drew these people? Because traditionally there, there was a lot of religion happening in Jesus' day. In some ways something special and different is happening here, that while the religion was not drawing these people, that the, the superstructures there, the participants, the leaders were not drawing this crowd by design.

Instead, they're drawn to Jesus. There's something not just in the teaching but who he is, and Luke tells us tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to him. He goes on to say, and the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them. As a result of this, Jesus tells then these three parables.

It's almost like Jesus essentially saying to the Pharisees, listen, you're accusing me of receiving sinners. Yes, you are exactly right, but I want you to know why. What a beautiful thing for him to explain and then to explain it in these thrice kind of implications and stories and metaphors. It's a beautiful thing.

It reminds me of this quote from. Period in Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes.

Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him.

And it's an incredible thing. It's far better, not that grace finds us willing, but that grace makes us willing, that grace compels us because we do not even know what's the best for ourselves. And so here again, Jesus tells us these three parables, these three stories to convey this incredible point. And that is that there is surely hope for all.

God's love extends even to these sinners. That the glorious truth, that glorious truth shines out in all of these parables, and it's meant to be impressed upon us in like increasing degree that God's amazing love is both in its scope and its reach, and especially contrast. The ideas of then these.

Pharisees and the scribes on this subject, he comes at them hard with these series of events and these stories. Tony, I've been talking about that a lot. Like we just can't get beyond that. I can't even, I wish I could comprehend it in a more deep way. You know, the first two parables are, it's dying to impress upon us that the love of God.

Is this activity. It is effort and fire and reach and going after and passion and love, and it seeks out the sinner and it takes like infinite trouble in order to find him and rescue him. It's willing to pursue all to love, all, to take up the cost of all, and then to show the joy of God and all the hosts of heaven when even just one.

Soul is saved. So it's not even this massive effort undertaking, which weighs the benefits and the costs and says, well, it's gonna be worth it in the end because the dividends earned from making this investment will be far greater than the investment itself. And what God does in Christ is he sends his son not.

Reservedly, not like arms reach, so he could snatch him back up when harm beel him, but he gives him so unreservedly in passive and active obedience so that the sinner might be saved. Even just one and one, just one is saved. All of heaven rejoices there. There is a full consummate expression of happiness and completeness and joy of just one.

Being saved and brought into God's kingdom. In other words, if that entire cost were for just one, God would still be willing to bear it. Jesus would still come in his active and past obedience to accomplish that very thing. And it's all of this that's moving us, of course, to the parable of the prodigal son, but I cannot even get there.

Don't, don't even try to get me to go there. I know you're all doing it. So there is this great and incredible outstanding point.

[00:13:20] The Scandalous Love of Jesus

[00:13:20] Jesse Schwamb: It's something else that Tony had been talking about is that there's a simplicity, of course in all of these accounts, but there's also like this great complexity, especially because of this context.

And I think as well what we've been really. Settling on in our conversations outside of the podcast is just how scandalous this makes Jesus seem and appear like that Jesus does appear or he should appear to us like too good to be true, too loving, too kind, too recklessly spend thrift. And again, that's what we're gonna find in the next parable, but that that is for real and it doesn't make him weak.

It might be an expression of meekness, a power under control, but it shows that the humility of God in Christ is really beyond our ability to comprehend in reach that is so thorough and so full, and so rich and so warm that Christ is, as it were, experiencing a great, great joy. In the sinner coming and being saved, and him identifying with the sinner to such a degree and going out and finding what was lost to bring it back in.

That this act of even when we come to him in repentance over and over again, we do not exhaust him because so great is his love for us. That he's coming to save continually and always, that he doesn't have to save over and over again. There's no additional sacrifice that's necessary, but that, that sacrifice is so great, so grand, so complete that it continues to bring us back into the fold to save us as it were.

Over and over again to restore us onto fellowship with him to restore the harmony of our relationship while never having to rescind or to rebuild again the initial identity that we have in Christ that was accomplished on the cross, but that this just seems too good to be true. It just seems so miraculous that my own sin.

As it continues to compound day after day, that is like continue to do the things I don't wanna do, as Paul said. But the very things I don't wanna do, those are the things that I do. It seems like this. At some point God would just become thoroughly exhausted with, and that's not the case. And these parables prove that to us over and over.

And over again. So this very context and setting of these parables shows. I think all of this like perfectly, and Tony and I have just been conversing about that a lot. We keep going back to it. Maybe we're a little bit afraid that if we keep talking about it, you're gonna be like, you already said that, say something different.

But we can't help. We're really come back to this and. Again, I'm drawn to this line that these sinners, the publicans, if you're totally down with the King James version that they drew near unto him, they came to him. There was something about him that they were almost like compelled or constrained as, as Paul says, like God's love compels us or constraints us.

That they themselves were feeling that almost this magnetism toward Christ to want to be in his presence toward what, hear what he has to say, and what a beautiful setup that they're being drawn into him. He's eating with them. He's doing this. Most intimate thing, spending time with the me, my shoulders, with 'em, and of course the Pharisees, the scribes, the religious leaders, they see this and it's recorded that they're grumbling.

They're complaining, right, man, what an adventure in missing the point. But that's there for us. I really think to pick up here as we try to understand what these parables mean, again, it's not just like the teaching. The teaching is so good, it's so rich and juicy and, and full of so many things for us to consume and to understand and to meditate on and to metabolize.

As well that we can just quickly mix Miss, like this incredible perspective of like the context of which it took place, like the literal environment and the circumstances of life, which in some ways were the progenitor, or at least were the very thing, the fertile soil, which gave Christ the opportunity to plant.

Then these seeds of the story and what I'm raised by is they felt that. I think these sinners felt that there was a chance even for them, that like in these man's teachings, there was a new and fresh hope, and even the Pharisees and the scribes saw precisely that thing. I think that's why, that's why they're complaining, and they had regarded these sinners as being so utterly and entirely behind, beyond hope and redemption.

I mean, that was really the Orthodox view. It was to say like, listen, they're so hopeless that they were to be entirely ignored. Religion was for good people. It had nothing to do with bad people. You know, unfortunately, that's so much I think of how people view even Christianity today, that this is a club for people who have it mostly together or wanna have it together or think that they can get it together.

Religion is for the good people and it should have nothing to do with the bad people. And it certainly had nothing to. To give these sinners just in the in, in our own day. Religion, by and in of itself, has nothing to give anybody, certainly nothing to give those who are hurt. Who are feeling hopeless, who are down and out, who are the abused, who have been written off, who are marginalized, who are pariahs, who feel that the guilt is overwhelming in their lives, who have all of these regrets.

Religion by itself cannot help any of those people. Can't help you oriah in that way, and so it did no good then. To command the good people, to mix with the bad people, and then to treat them kindly and tell them of new possibilities. Religion, even in Jesus day, didn't offer that. And so you can see then that the Pharisees of the scribes were annoyed by our Lord's teaching.

Anyone who saw any hope for this public or sinner must to them be entirely wrong and a blasphemer, because that's not who religion was for. And yet the sinner here. I mean, can you only imagine loved one like the sinner here in seeing Jesus? And being with Jesus, and they were drawn to him by understanding that there was some kind of new and fresh hope for them.

And that's what's delivered in these parables to us. That how scandalous love of God is, is that from the jump, those who are with him recognize the scandal and said, this is so otherworldly that it seems like. This could be for me. And that is exactly why Jesus came, right? He came to seek and to save those who are lost.

The point is was not how he could be received back, but whether he could be received back at all, whether he deserved anything at all. And so the sinner coming and saying that, is it possible that even for me. There is hope that even for me, there could be restoration with God. That for all the things which I already know, that I'm far from God, that I see him as the one who has these incredible and high in standards that I have transgressed, is it possible that there is hope for me?

You know, just this morning on our Lord's day, because that's time of year, one of the songs that we sang was Joy to the World, and I was thinking even as we were preparing to sing that what, what other people conceive of that? Him. You know, we might rightly ask, is there any joy in our world today? Is there any hope?

Is there any peace? And the answer is, yes, there is. It's in Jesus. You know that he is the answer. But we sometimes need to start saying, what is the question? And the question is, who can come before God? What can I do to be saved? That is the question. And these sinners at least understood that. They're drawn to Jesus, they're drawn to come before him.

And so this stands out to me. It's something that we've been talking about a lot, this possibility of a new start, a new beginning for all, even for the most desperate, the ones that were so far off that they recognized that they couldn't probably even turn around. You know, sometimes like we colloquial say, listen, all you have to do is turn around and we use that language because we're tying it with this idea of repentance, you know, to turn.

Toward God to to forsake that which is our natural selves by the power of the Holy Spirit and to come back into the family of Christ. And I think that is good, but I think the sinner also recognizes that the only prayer that we have is that Jesus have mercy on me. Have mercy on me that that's the right place to start.

And I see in this, this idea, of course that's clearly articulated by our savior, that God is doing all the things that we are so lost. We're like that lost sheep that's just gone astray. That we desperately need help because we can't find our way back. I'm not sure we can even barely turn around. And I think if.

What Thomas Watson is saying is correct. Then the beauty of Grace is that it does make us willing because I, for one, would go kicking and screaming all the way. But the fact that it makes us willing, it makes us come to our senses, which I have a feeling is something we will explore in a future, future episode, but that God is setting forward all of that initiative, you know.

I like that John Rowan, John Owen also writes the sheep strays and knows not how to return, but Christ the good shepherd will lose none of his flock, but fetch them home. I love this idea. That's from his expedition on Hebrews. Actually, it's not even about this particular passage. The sheep does not seek the shepherd.

The shepherd seeks the sheep. So even in this narrative, we see all these beautiful elements that. You know, Tony, I talked about before this total depravity, but it's just a narrative form that there's no one that seeks after God. And so what we find is that God is bringing forward election, choosing his own.

He's bringing about definitive atonement, he's saving his own, and then there's a sexual calling he's bringing to himself his own. It's like the Westminster Larry Catechism says in. Uh, 59 Christ, by his intercession answers the demands of those for whom he has died and for them only. And all of this then brings about this like great and incredible rejoicing in heaven.

I think, not just because it's like, it's great to find lost things, but it's also great to see that God has done the very thing that he said he was going to do, that he's the one that's, that he's the author and perfecter of salvation. And so God delights. In the work of redemption. So this is like the thing that I think is incredibly scandalous.

[00:23:01] Christ's Compassion and Solidarity

[00:23:01] Jesse Schwamb: This is the thing that Tony and I have talked a lot about, like privately, and that is how much Jesus has compassion and the ability, the true ability to sympathize. And that in these I, I think like underneath. All of these little parables and stories. The only reason there is an action of love. That love always leads to giving.

Love always leads to going. Finding love always leads to drawing in that the only reason that is happening is because of this incredible ability of Christ to sympathize with us. You know, the burden of these verses, the anchor of these verses is Christ sheer an amazing solidarity with all of his people.

All our natural intuitions tell us that Jesus is with us on our side present helping. When life is going well. It's easy to see that. It seems very clear, but in this text, we're finding that those who are drawn are the ones whose life are decidedly not going great, not doing that well. And so the opposite is being.

Presented for us in this kinda stark relief. It's in our weakness that Jesus sympathizes with us. It's in our pain and our own destructive behaviors that he comes, not because he himself has experienced any sin, but because he is a savior whose heart is wide open to go after and to embrace those who are in that state, which seems incredible.

Scandalous, like in our pain, Jesus is pained in our suffering. He feels the suffering as his own, even though it isn't. He's not this like invincible divinity. Well, lemme say it this way. It's not that his invincible divinity is threatened, but in the sense that his heart is feelingly drawn into our distress.

Is that a word? Feelingly, like that. He literally wants to, he feels himself into our distress and, and in that doing so his joy is increased because he's identifying with his children because he is coming close to them because he is going after them. His love leads to that kind of feeling ness, so it's.

It is not only that Jesus can reveal, relieve us and reveal, I suppose, but relieve us from our troubles like a doctor prescribing medicine. It's also that before any relief comes before, like a day of restoration comes before like that day of the shackles falling off before that time when the breakthrough happens, he's with us in our troubles like a doctor who has endured the same disease.

That's what's wild. That's what makes all of this so different than any other religious worldview, than any other kind of conscription of how to think about the world and any other philosophy. And he's a sinless man, but he's not this like sinless Superman. And what I mean by that is I think some of you heard, if you've listened for any length of time, you know that there's this song.

That is a children's song. That is something like Jesus is my superhero, and I always bristle that a little bit because it takes out the humanity of Christ. It takes out this feeling heart of Christ as if to like separate him so much from us that we want all of this power. Of course we want this. Alien power to come and to restore our lives, to intercede, to do the thing that we cannot do for ourselves.

But the beauty of these parables is the thing that we cannot do for ourselves is still the thing that Christ puts, puts himself close to us in that he feels like us, though he is not us, and that is the heart. That is where his power of coming to save. Is brought into our lives. He comes and saves us because he knows us.

And to know us is to become like us. And to become like us is to be humiliated, to come and to humble himself and to condescend to such degree that he is again, like this doctor who can heal. But before any of that comes, he's with us in the troubles. This is Emmanuel, this is God with us, that he is the one that comes and stands shoulder to shoulder with us in that pain that feels and empathizes and comes and ministers to us in that pain, and takes great joy in doing so.

And in fact, his joy, as it were, is enlarged in doing that.

[00:27:09] The Joy of Salvation

[00:27:09] Jesse Schwamb: Our tendency, I think, is to feel intuitively that the more difficult life gets, the more that we're alone. We sink further into pain, we sink further into felt isolation, and these passages correct us. Our pain never outstrips what he himself shares in.

That is what's remarkable. That is what drives and fuels, I think, in a way, this passionate heart of Christ towards us and then results in this kind of unbelievable, really loved ones. Incredible, outstanding, inconceivable good news that Christ has saved us, that he would come and in the midst of our great ugliness and sinfulness and unkindness and selfishness, that he would not only identify with that and say, you who are broken, I delight.

To repair you, but that we receive then not just a restoration, but then all of the benefits that Christ himself has earned that are due him for his obedience. These also get credited to us. I think it's impossible for me not to conclude this little conversation that we're having without going to Colossians chapter two, which again, I've said this before, but as somebody who's worked in finance and banking, all of my adult life.

Actually, I dunno why I would say it that way, because you really can't, shouldn't be working in finance or banking as a child. But for all of my life I just find this language so resonant. And if you're a person that's borrowed money for any length of time or maybe basically just worked in the world and had to endure, if that's your word, or interact with finance than you are probably gonna resonate with this.

This too. But this is. An expression of what God has done for us in Christ. And I wanna begin reading in verse 13. And you being dead in your transgressions. Oh, man. Uh, sorry, I, I hate to do this. I often don't like to do this, but you're just gonna get my commentary, the Jesse commentary in between these in, in the midst of these verses because I, I should probably best practice to read the whole thing for y'all.

But I just, I am dumbfounded. I keep getting dumbstruck by these words and thinking about these in light of, uh, the incarnation and of Christ coming and these parables that he's teaching us that are just showing like as if he's just opening up his heart to us, and I can't, but help but stop and pause and say, are, are you hearing this too?

And you being dead in your transgressions. This is so horrible, isn't it? Like who wants this to be true of them? But this is, this is my story and your story that we were dead and it's not a who done it mystery. You know what killed us? Our transgressions, yours and mines our own work. That the minimum wage of sin is death and that your transgressions killed you and that you were in that state.

You were in that state actually from the beginning, from the time that you were born. You were dead and you were dead in your transgressions. That is super bad. I mean, that's the understatement of this entire conversation. It, it's horrible. Uh, I can't think of anything worse. It's true of all us. So is it possible that it could get worse?

It does actually. And you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, that is like you were not just, it would be worse enough that of course, like you the Law of Christ, but you love to do it. That was your jam in your flesh. The flesh that you wanted to embrace, the selfishness that was who you are, apart from Christ, which the Bible tells us is the opposite of being circumcised brought into the family.

You were far away as far away as possible. You were so far out of the government that you were uncircumcised. That's who you were. You were dead. You were dead because of your transgressions, and then you were so far outside of the family of God, there was no hope for you. In your own self, there's nothing you could do to make a way.

There was nothing that you could do to write yourself. You were dead in your transgressions, uncircumcision of your flesh. Sit on that for a second, and you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, Jesus made you alive with him having graciously forgiven us all our transgressions.

So again, this is. Incredible. Not just that you would be forgiven, but that you'd be made alive in Christ. There's this falsity out there somewhere. Again, this is what religion teaches you, teaches us that Jesus came to make bad people good. I mean, that's really what the Pharisees were after in their own lives.

There was their promulgating a system in which what religion does is it's for good people and at best what it can do is make maybe some bad people. Good. But if you're too bad, it's not for you. It's too bad. It's unfortunate, but it's not your thing. It won't work. But what the scripture tells us, what these parables press us with is not that Jesus came to make bad people good, but he came to make dead people alive.

And so what we have here is a clear indication of that, that even in the midst of your, your horrible state, that that state, that it seemed hopeless, that here Jesus God, through Jesus made you alive with him having graciously forgiven all of our transgressions. Then here's the, here's the amazing part as if like, we didn't understand that, and I think like you and Paul here saying like, this should be clear, but I'm gonna double down on this.

I'm gonna use some language that should be abundantly clear to you just how bad things were and then how much freedom you should feel, what your lightness, what the, the bounce in your steps should be like because you were once dead uncircumcised. Now you've been made alive and you've been having everything graciously forgiven in Christ.

Here, here's what it's like having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He also has taken it out of the way. Having nailed it to the cross. How? How good is that sentence? Christ in his death canceled out the. Certificate of debt. Again, something that was codified against us.

So other words, it was documented. These were not just, and they weren't just this little statement that said like, it's really bad for you. You owe something. There's something that's been heaped up against you. But they were decrees against us. They were hostile to us. They were literally the thing that was going to kill us for all and separate us from Christ.

That thing, that certificate, he has taken it. Out out of the way, having nailed it to the cross, having disarmed the rulers and authorities, he made public display of them having triumphed over them. So it's this incredible sense that not only has Christ. Taking the certificate, cast it aside, paid for it in full.

But then above and beyond that, he's disarmed the rulers and authorities. He's made a public display of them. He's triumphed over sin, death, and the devil in such a demonstrative and public way to show that he's the ruler of all the world. That he's the promise maker and he's the promise keeper, that he's just, and that he's justifier.

And so Paul says to us, then Christian. How ought you to live? How ought you to behave? Is this not the best news that you could possibly hear? So all of that, I think is literally just the smallest backdrop to leading us into this final parable, this escalation really, of course, the three parables in one about the prodigal son and.

I would admonish you to think on that. This little extra pause that we've had here I think is good because I need to at least to remember that this is what's leading us for Jesus to say, to start with a story that says A man had two sons. You know, after we've talked about sheep. We talked about coins and then he goes, and a man had two sons.

What a beautiful like beginning what? What incredible language, what brilliance, all of this to show us his true heart for us. And I think it's always worthwhile to stop and to pause for a second. And to consider that heart as we make ourselves ready to receive this final and amazing parable.

[00:35:13] Conclusion and Next Episode Teaser

[00:35:13] Jesse Schwamb: So I hope that you will continue to hang out with us, that you yourself will not take my word for it or Tony's word for it, but you yourself, go to Luke 15 read.

It takes maybe. I dunno, 45 seconds to read all three of these and to spend some time thinking about what it is that Christ has done for us. That we're the lost sheep, we're the lost coin. We're also this lost son, son, daughter, that this was all of our stories. At some point, we can't escape the fact that this really is our biography and.

It hits close to home because we find that when we examine ourselves that we are the ones that were lost in our transgressions and dead. That we are the ones that were un circumcised, but God has made us alive together with Christ. I mean, read, read Colossians two and read Ephesians one, and what you're gonna find is we have every reason to rejoice, and these stories should compel us into.

A life of constant rejoicing for what Christ has done for us. That's the reason for every season. It's the reason for the Christian life, and certainly so much of what we find reflected in reform theology proper. So you know what to do. Come hang out with us on the Telegram chat, continue to process with us alongside of us in conversation with us, these incredible parables, because I do believe there's so much here.

We'll, we're never going to plumb the depths of these, and this is just our feeble attempt. To get us in the right place as we make that final hair point turn into this, that we slow down just a little bit and consider what great thing that Christ has done for us and what God, the Father and the Holy Spirit has wrought in our lives by way of this incredible salvation.

So you know what to do. Come back next week and we'll get after the parable. Of the prodigal. But until you do that, until we chat again and Tony rejoins us safe and strong, and Lord willing, as great as ever, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.

In this theologically rich episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the Parable of the Lost Coin from Luke 15:8-10. They explore how this parable reveals God's passionate pursuit of His elect and the divine joy that erupts when they are found. Building on their previous discussion of the Lost Sheep, the brothers examine how Jesus uses this second parable to further emphasize God's sovereign grace in salvation. The conversation highlights the theological implications of God's ownership of His people even before their redemption, the diligent efforts He undertakes to find them, and the heavenly celebration that follows. This episode offers profound insights into God's relentless love and the true nature of divine joy in redemption.

Key Takeaways

• The Parable of the Lost Coin emphasizes that God actively and diligently searches for those who belong to Him, sparing no effort to recover what is rightfully His.
• Jesus uses three sequential parables in Luke 15 to progressively reveal different aspects of God's heart toward sinners, with escalating emphasis on divine joy.
• The coin represents something of significant value that already belonged to the woman, illustrating that God's elect belong to Him even before their redemption.
• Unlike finding something new, the joy depicted is specifically about recovering something that was already yours but had been lost, highlighting God's eternal claim on His people.
• The spiritual inability of the sinner is represented by the coin's passivity - it cannot find its own way back and must be sought out by its owner.
• Angels rejoice over salvation not independently but because they share in God's delight at the effectiveness of His saving power.
• The parable challenges believers to recover their joy in salvation and to share it with others, much like the woman who called her neighbors to celebrate with her.

Expanded Insights God's Determined Pursuit of What Already Belongs to Him

The Parable of the Lost Coin reveals a profound theological truth about God's relationship to His elect. As Tony and Jesse discuss, this isn't a story about finding something new, but recovering something that already belongs to the owner. The woman in the parable doesn't rejoice because she discovered unexpected treasure; she rejoices because she recovered what was already hers. This illustrates the Reformed understanding that God's people have eternally belonged to Him. While justification occurs in time, there's a real sense in which God has been considering us as His people in eternity past. The parable therefore supports the doctrines of election and particular redemption - God is not creating conditions people can move into or out of, but is zealously reclaiming a specific people who are already His in His eternal decree. The searching, sweeping, and diligent pursuit represent not a general call, but an effectual calling that accomplishes its purpose.

The Divine Joy in Recovering Sinners

One of the most striking aspects of this parable is the overwhelming joy that accompanies finding the lost coin. The brothers highlight that this joy isn't reluctant or begrudging, but enthusiastic and overflowing. The woman calls her friends and neighbors to celebrate with her - a seemingly excessive response to finding a coin, unless we understand the theological significance. This reveals that God takes genuine delight in the redemption of sinners, to the extent that Jesus describes it as causing joy "in the presence of the angels of God." As Jesse and Tony note, this challenges our perception that God might save us begrudgingly. Instead, the parable teaches us that God's "alien work" is wrath, while His delight is in mercy. This should profoundly impact how believers view their own salvation and should inspire a contagious joy that spreads to others - a joy that many Christians, by Tony's own admission, need to recover in their daily walk.

Memorable Quotes

"Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love." - Jesse Schwamb

"The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace... The reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased, is because God has this real pleasure to pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire." - Jesse Schwamb

"These parables are calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently?" - Tony Arsenal

Full Transcript

[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found.

The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire.

Welcome to episode 472 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:00:57] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.

[00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.

[00:01:02] Jesus and the Parable of the Lost Coin

[00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: So there was this time, maybe actually more than one time, but at least this one time that we've been looking at where Jesus is hanging out and the religious incumbents, the Pharisees, they come to him and they say, you are a friend of sinners, and.

Instead of taking offense to this, Jesus turns this all around. Uses this as a label, appropriates it for himself and his glorious character. And we know this because he gives us this thrice repeated sense of what it means to see his heart, his volition, his passion, his love, his going after his people, and he does it.

Three little parables and we looked at one last time and we're coming up to round two of the same and similar, but also different and interesting. And so today we're looking at the parable of the lost coin or the Lost dma, or I suppose, whatever kind of currency you wanna insert in there. But once again, something's lost and we're gonna see how our savior comes to find it by way of explaining it.

In metaphor. So there's more things that are lost and more things to be found on this episode. That's how we do it. It's true. It's true. So that's how Jesus does it. So

[00:02:12] Tony Arsenal: yeah. So it should be how we do it.

[00:02:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I cut to like Montel Jordan now is the only thing going through my head. Tell Jordan.

Yeah. Isn't he the one that's like, this is how we do it, that song, this is

[00:02:28] Tony Arsenal: how we do it. I, I don't know who sings it. Apparently it's me right now. That was actually really good. That was fantastic.

[00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Hopefully never auto tuned. Not even once. I'm sure that'll make an appearance now and the rest, somebody

[00:02:42] Tony Arsenal: should take that and auto tune it for me.

[00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: That would be fantastic. Listen, it doesn't need it. That was perfect. That was right off the cuff, right off the top. It was beautiful. It was ous.

[00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes.

[00:02:51] Affirmations and Denials

[00:02:51] Jesse Schwamb: I'm hoping that appearance,

[00:02:53] Tony Arsenal: before we jump into our, our favorite segment here in affirmations of Denials, I just wanted to take a second to, uh, thank all of our listeners.

Uh, we have the best listeners in the world. That's true, and we've also got a really great place to get together and chat about things. That's also true. Uh, we have a little telegram chat, which is just a little chat, um, program that run on your phone or in a browser. Really any device you have, you can go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood and join that, uh, little chat group.

And there's lots of stuff going on there. We don't need to get into all the details, but it's a friendly little place. Lots of good people, lots of good conversation. And just lots of good digital fellowship, if that's even a thing. I think it is. So please do join us there. It's a great place to discuss, uh, the episodes or what you're learning or what you'd like to learn.

There's all sorts of, uh, little nooks and crannies and things to do in there.

[00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: So if you're looking for a little df and you know that you are coming out, we won't get into details, but you definitely should. Take Tony's advice, please. You, you will not be disappointed. It, it's a fun, fun time together. True.

Just like you're about to have with us chatting it up and going through a little affirmations and denials. So, as usual, Tony, what are you, are you affirming with something or are you denying again, something? I'm, I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm ready.

[00:04:06] Tony Arsenal: Okay. Uh, it is, I thought that was going somewhere else.

Uh, I'm, I'm affirming something.

[00:04:13] AI and Problem Solving

[00:04:13] Tony Arsenal: People are gonna get so sick of me doing like AI affirmations, but I, it's like I learned a new thing to do with AI every couple of weeks. I ran across an article the other day, uh, that I don't remember where the article was. I didn't save it, but I did read it. And one of the things that pointed out is that a lot of times you're not getting the most out of AI because you don't really know how to ask the questions.

True. One of the things it was was getting through is a lot of people will ask, they'll have a problem that they're encountering and they'll just ask AI like, how do I fix this problem? And a lot of times what that yields is like very superficial, basic, uh, generic advice or generic kind of, uh, directions for resolving a problem.

And the, I don't remember the exact phrasing, 'cause it was a little while ago since I read it, but it basically said something like, I'm encountering X problem. And despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to resolve it. And by using sort of these extra phrases. What it does is it sort of like pushes the AI to ask you questions about what you've already tried to do, and so it's gonna tailor its advice or its directions to your specific situation a little bit more.

So, for example, I was doing this today. We, um, we just had the time change, right? Stupidest thing in the world doesn't make any sense and my kids don't understand that the time has changed and we're now like three or four weeks past the, the time change and their, their schedule still have not adjusted.

So my son Augie, who is uh, like three and three quarters, uh, I don't know how many months it is. When do you stop? I don't even know. When you stop counting in months. He's three and a quarter, three quarters. And he will regularly wake up between four 30 and five 30. And when we really, what we really want is for him to be sleeping, uh, from uh, until like six or six 30 at the latest.

So he's like a full hour, sometimes two hours ahead of time, which then he wakes up, it's a small house. He's noisy 'cause he's a three and a half year old. So he wakes up the baby. The baby wakes up. My wife, and then we're all awake and then we're cranky and it's miserable. So I, I put that little prompt into, um, into Google Gemini, which is right now is my, um, AI of choice, but works very similar.

If you use something like chat, GPT or CLO or whatever, you know, grok, whatever AI tool you have access to, put that little prompt in. You know, something like since the time change, my son has been waking up at four 30 in the morning, despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to, uh, adjust his schedule.

And so it started asking me questions like, how much light is in the room? What time does he go to bed? How much does he nap? And it, so it's, it's pulling from the internet. This is why I like Google Geminis. It's actually pulling from the internet to identify like common, common. Related issues. And so it starts to probe and ask questions.

And by the time it was done, what it came out with was like a step-by-step two week plan. Basically like, do this tonight, do this tomorrow morning. Um, and it was able to identify what it believes is the problem. We'll see if it actually is, but the beauty now is now that I've got a plan that I've got in this ai, I can start, you know, tomorrow morning I'm gonna try to do what it said and I can tell.

The ai, how things went, and it can now adjust the plan based on whether or not, you know, this worked or didn't work. So it's a good way to sort of, um, push an ai, uh, chat bot to probe your situation a little bit more. So you could do this really for anything, right. You could do something like I'm having, I'm having trouble losing weight despite all efforts to the contrary.

Um, can you help me identify what the, you know, root problem is? So think about different ways that you can use this. It's a pretty cool way to sort of like, push the, the AI to get a little deeper into the specifics without like a lot of extra heavy lifting. I'm sure there's probably other ways you could drive it to do this, but this was just one clever way that I, that this article pointed out to accomplish this.

[00:08:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a great exercise to have AI optimize itself. Yeah. By you turning your prompts around and asking it to ask you a number of questions, sufficient number, until it can provide an optimize answer for you. So lots, almost every bot has some kind of, you can have it analyze your prompts essentially, but some like copilot actually have a prompt agent, which will help you construct the prompt in an optimal way.

Yeah, and that again, is kind of question and answer. So I'm with you. I will often turn it around and say. Here's my goal. Ask me sufficient number of questions so that you can provide the right insight to accomplish said goal. Or like you're saying, if you can create this like, massive conversation that keeps all this history.

So I, I've heard of people using this for their exercise or running plans. Famously, somebody a, a, um, journalist, the Wall Street Journal, use it, train for a marathon. You can almost have it do anything for you. Of course, you want to test all of that and interact with it reasonably and ably, right? At the same time, what it does best is respond to like natural language interaction.

And so by turning it around and basically saying, help me help you do the best job possible, providing the information, it's like the weirdest way of querying stuff because we're so used to providing explicit direction ourselves, right? So to turn it around, it's kind of a new experience, but it's super fun, really interesting, really effective.

[00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: And it because you are allowing, in a certain sense, you're sort of asking the AI to drive the conversation. This, this particular prompt, I know the article I read went into details about why this prompt is powerful and the reason this prompt is powerful is not because of anything the AI's doing necessarily, right.

It's because you're basically telling the AI. To find what you've missed. And so it's asking you questions. Like if I was to sit down and go like, all right, what are all the things that's wrong, that's causing my son to be awake? Like obviously I didn't figure it out on my own, so it's asking me what I've already tried and what it found out.

And then of course when it tells me what it is, it's like the most obvious thing when it figures out what it is. It's identifying something that I already haven't identified because I've told it. I've already tried everything I can think of, and so it's prompting me to try to figure out what it is that I haven't thought of.

So those are, like I said, there's lots of ways to sort of get the ais to do that exercise. Um, it's not, it's not just about prompt engineering, although that there's a lot of science now and a lot of like. Specifics on how you do prompt engineering, um, you know, like building a persona for the ai. Like there's all sorts of things you can do and you can add that, like, I could have said something like, um.

Uh, you are a pediatric sleep expert, right? And when you tell it that what it's gonna do is it's gonna start to use more technical language, it's gonna, it's gonna speak to you back as though it's a, and this, this is where AI can get a little bit dangerous and really downright scary in some instances.

But with that particular prompt, it's gonna start to speak back to you as though it was a clinician of some sort, diagnosing a medical situation, which again. That is definitely not something I would ever endorse. Like, don't let an AI be your doctor. That's just not, like WebMD was already scary enough when you were just telling you what your symptoms were and it was just cross checking it.

Um, but you could do something like, and I use these kinds of prompts for our show notes where I'm like, you're an expert at SEO, like at um, podcast show notes. Utilizing SEO search terms, like that's part of the prompt that I use when I use, um, in, in this case, I use notion to generate most of our show notes.

Um, it, it starts to change the way that it looks at things and the way that it, I, it responds to you based on different prompts. So I think it, it's a little bit scary, uh, AI. Can be a strange, strange place. And there's some, they're doing some research that is a little bit frightening. They did a study and actually, like, they, they basically like unlocked an AI and gave it access to a pretend company with emails and stuff and said that a particular employee was gonna shut out, was gonna delete the ai.

And the first thing it did was try to like blackmail the employee with like a risk, like a scandalous email. It had. Then after that they, they engineered a scenario where the AI actually had the ability to kill the employee. And despite like explicit instructions not to do anything illegal, it still tried to kill the employee.

So there's some scary things that are coming up if we're not, you know, if, if the science is not able to get that under control. But right now it's just a lot of fun. Like it's, we're, we're probably not at the point where it's dangerous yet and hopefully. Hopefully it won't get to that point, but we'll see.

We'll see. That got dark real fast, fast, fast. Jesse, you gotta get this. And that was an affirmation. I guess I'm affirming killer murder ais that are gonna kill us all, but uh, we're gonna have fun with it until they do at least.

[00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: Thanks for not making that deny against. 'cause I can only imagine the direction that one to taken.

[00:12:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. At least when the AI hears this, it's gonna know that I'm on its side, so, oh, for sure. I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords. So as do Iye.

[00:13:05] Christmas Hymns and Music Recommendations

[00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: But Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today to get me out of this pit here?

[00:13:09] Jesse Schwamb: So, lemme start with a question. Do you have a favorite Christmas hymn? And if so, what is it?

[00:13:16] Tony Arsenal: Ooh, that's a tough one. Um, I think I've always been really partial to Oh, holy Night. But, uh, there's, there's not anything that really jumps to mind my, as I've become older and crankier and more Scottish in spirit, I just, Christmas hymns just aren't as. If they're not as prominent in my mind, but oh, holy night or come coming, Emanuel is probably a really good one too.

[00:13:38] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. Those are the, those are like the top in the top three for me. Yeah. So I think

[00:13:42] Tony Arsenal: I know where you're going based on the question.

[00:13:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're very much the same. So, well maybe, so I am affirming with, but it's that time of year and people you, you know and love and maybe yourself, you're gonna listen to Christian music and.

That's okay. I put no shade on that, especially because we're talking about the incarnation, celebrate the incarnation. But of course, I think the best version of that is some of these really lovely hymns because they could be sung and worshiped through all year round. We just choose them because they fit in with the calendar particularly well here, and sometimes they're included, their lyrics included in Hallmark cards and, and your local.

Cool. Coles. So while that's happening, why not embrace it? But here's my information is why not go with some different versions. I love the hymn as you just said. Oh, come will come Emmanuel. And so I'm gonna give people three versions of it to listen to Now to make my list of this kind of repertoire. The song's gotta maintain that traditional melody.

I think to a strong degree, it's gotta be rich and deep and dark, especially Ko Emmanuel. But it's gotta have something in it that's a little bit nuanced. Different creative arrangements, musicality. So let me give two brand new ones that you may not have heard versions and one old one. So the old one is by, these are all Ko Emanuel.

So if at some point during this you're like, what song is he talking about? It's Ko. Emmanuel. It's just three times. Th we're keeping it th Rice tonight. So the first is by band called for today. That's gonna be a, a little bit harder if you want something that, uh, gets you kind of pumped up in the midst of this redemption.

That's gonna be the version. And then there are two brand new ones. One is by skillet, which is just been making music forever, but the piano melody they bring into this and they do a little something nuanced with the chorus that doesn't pull away too much. From the original, but just gives it a little extra like Tastiness.

Yeah. Skill. Great version. And then another one that just came out yesterday. My yesterday, not your yesterday. So actually it doesn't even matter at this point. It's already out is by descriptor. And this would be like the most chill version that is a hardcore band by, I would say tradition, but in this case, their version is very chill.

All of them I find are just deeply worshipful. Yeah. And these, the music is very full of impact, but of course the lyrics are glorious. I really love this, this crying out to God for the Savior. This. You know, just, it's really the, the plea that we should have now, which is, you know, maranatha like Lord Jesus, come.

And so in some ways we're, we're celebrating that initial plea and cry for redemption as it has been applied onto us by the Holy Spirit. And we're also saying, you know, come and fulfill your kingdom, Lord, come and bring the full promise, which is here, but not yet. So I like all three of these. So for today.

Skillet descriptor, which sounds like we're playing like a weird word game when you put those all together. It does, but they're all great bands and their versions I think are, are worthy. So the larger affirmation, I suppose, is like, go out this season and find different versions, like mix it up a little bit.

Because it's good to hear this music somewhat afresh, and so I think by coming to it with different versions of it, you'll get a little bit of that sense. It'll make maybe what is, maybe if it's felt rote or mundane or just trivial, like you're saying, kind of revive some of these pieces in our hearts so we can, we, we can really worship through them.

We're redeeming them even as they're meant to be expressions of the ultimate redemption.

[00:16:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, um, I heard the skillet version and, uh, you know, you know me like I'm not a huge fan of harder music. Yeah. But that, that song Slaps man, it's, yes,

[00:17:07] Jesse Schwamb: it does. It's

[00:17:07] Tony Arsenal: good. And Al I mean, it, it also ignited this weird firestorm of craziness online.

I don't know if you heard anything about this, but Yes, it was, it was, there was like the people who absolutely love it and will. Fight you if you don't. Yes. And then there was like the people who think it's straight from the devil because of somehow demonic rhythms, whatever that means. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm not a big fan of the heavier music, but there is something about that sort of, uh.

I don't know. Is skill, would that be considered like metal at all?

[00:17:38] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's a loaded question. Probably.

[00:17:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So like I found, uh, this is, we're gonna go down to Rabbit Trail here. Let's do it. Here we go. I found a version of Africa by Toto that was labeled as metal on YouTube. So I don't know whether it actually is, and this, this version of skill, it strikes me as very similar, where it's, ah, uh, it, it's like, um.

The harmonies are slightly different in terms of like how they resonate than Okay. Other harmonies. Like I get

[00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: that

[00:18:06] Tony Arsenal: there's a certain, you know, like when you think about like Western music, there's certain right, there's certain harmonies when, you know, think about like piano chords are framed and my understanding at least this could be way off, and I'm sure you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong, is that um, metal music, heavy metal music uses slightly different.

Chord formations that it almost leaves you feeling a little unresolved. Yes, but not quite unresolved. Like it's just, it's, it's more the harmonics are different, so that's fair. Skillet. This skillet song is so good, and I think you're right. It, it retains the sort of like. The same basic melody, the same, the same basic harmonies, actually.

Right. And it's, it's almost like the harmonies are just close enough to being put into a different key with the harmonies. Yes,

[00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: that's true

[00:18:53] Tony Arsenal: than then. Uh, but not quite actually going into another key. So like, sometimes you'll see online, you'll find YouTube videos where they play like pop songs, but they've changed the, the.

Chords a little bit. So now it's in a minor key. It's almost like it's there. It's like one more little note shift and it would be there. Um, and then there's some interesting, uh, like repetition and almost some like anal singing going on, that it's very good. Even if you don't like heavier music. Like, like I don't, um, go listen to it and I think you'll find yourself like hitting repeat a couple times.

It was very, very good.

[00:19:25] Jesse Schwamb: That's a good way of saying it. A lot of times that style is a little bit dissonant, if that's what you mean in the court. Yeah. Formation. So it gives you this unsettledness, this almost unresolvedness, and that's in there. Yeah. And just so everybody knows, actually, if you listen to that version from Skillet, you'll probably listen to most of it.

You'll get about two thirds of the way through it and probably be saying, what are those guys talking about? It's the breakdown. Where it amps up. But before that, I think anybody could listen to it and just enjoy it. It's a really beautiful, almost haunting piano melody. They bring into the intro in that, in the interlude.

It's very lovely. So it gives you that sense. Again, I love this kind of music because there's almost something, there is something in this song that's longing for something that is wanting and yet left, unresolved and unfulfilled until the savior comes. There's almost a lament in it, so to speak, especially with like the way it's orchestrated.

So I love that this hymn is like deep and rich in that way. It's, that's fine. Like if you want to sing deck the Holes, that's totally fine. This is just, I think, better and rich and deeper and more interesting because it does speak to this life of looking for and waiting for anticipating the advent of the savior.

So to get me get put back in that place by music, I think is like a net gain this time of year. It's good to have that perspective. I'm, I'm glad you've heard it. We should just open that debate up whether or not we come hang out in the telegram chat. We'll put it in that debate. Is skillet hardcore or metal?

We'll just leave it there 'cause I have my opinions, but I'm, well, I'm sure everybody else does.

[00:20:48] Tony Arsenal: I don't even know what those words mean, Jesse. Everything is hardcore in metal compared to what I normally listen to. I don't even listen to music anymore usually, so I, I mean, I'm like mostly all podcasts all the time.

Anytime I have time, I don't have a ton of time to listen to. Um, audio stuff, but

[00:21:06] Jesse Schwamb: that's totally fair. Well now everybody now join us though.

[00:21:08] Tony Arsenal: Educate me

[00:21:09] Jesse Schwamb: now. Everybody can properly use, IM prompt whatever AI of their choice, and they can listen to at least three different versions of al comical manual. And then they can tell us which one do you like the best?

Or maybe you have your own version. That's what she was saying. What's your favorite Christmas in?

[00:21:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And

[00:21:24] Jesse Schwamb: what version of it do you like? I mean, it'll be like.

[00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: It'll be like, despite my best efforts, I've been un unable to understand what hardcore and medical is. Please help me understand.

[00:21:37] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, we're gonna have some, some fun with this at some point.

We'll have to get into the whole debate, though. I know you and I have talked about it before. We'll put it before the brothers and sisters about a Christmas Carol and what version everybody else likes. That's also seems like, aside from the, the whole eternal debate, which I'm not sure is really serious about whether or not diehard is a Christmas movie, this idea of like, which version of the Christmas Carol do you subscribe to?

Yeah. Which one would you watch if you can only watch one? Which one will you watch? That's, we'll have to save that for another time.

[00:22:06] Tony Arsenal: We'll save it for another time. And we get a little closer to midwinter. No reason we just can't

[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: do it right now because we gotta get to Luke 15.

[00:22:12] Discussion on the Parable of the Lost Coin

[00:22:12] Tony Arsenal: We do.

[00:22:13] Jesse Schwamb: We, we've already been in this place of looking at Jesus' response to the Pharisees when they say to him, listen, this man receives sinners and eats with them.

And Jesus is basically like, yeah, that's right. And let me tell you three times what the heart of God is like and what my mission in serving him is like, and what I desire to come to do for my children. And so we spoke in the last conversation about the parable lost sheep. Go check that out. Some are saying, I mean, I'm not saying this, but some are saying in the internet, it's the definitive.

Congratulation of that parable. I'm, I'm happy to take that if that's true. Um, but we wanna go on to this parable of the lost coin. So let me read, it's just a couple of verses and you're gonna hear in the text that you're going to understand right away. This is being linked because it starts with or, so this is Jesus speaking and this is Luke 15, chapter 15, starting in verse eight.

Jesus says, or a what woman? She has 10 D drachmas and loses. One drachma does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it. And when she has found it, she calls together her friend and her neighbors saying, rejoice with me for I found the D Drachma, which I lost in the same way I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.

[00:23:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. On one level, this is, uh, again, it's not all that complicated of a scenario, right? And we have to kind of go back and relo through some of the stuff we talked about last week because this is a continuation of, you know, when we first talked about the Matthew 13 parables, we commented on like.

Christ was coming back to the same themes, right? And in some ways, repeating the parable. This is even stronger than that. It's not just that Christ is teaching the same thing across multiple parables. The sense here, at least the sense I get when I read this parable, the lost sheep, and then the prodigal, um, sun parable or, or the next parable here, um, is actually that Christ is just sort of like hammering home the one point he's making to the tax collectors and or to the tax collectors or to the scribes who are complaining about the fact that Christ was eating with sinners.

He's just hammering this point home, right? So it's not, it's not to try to add. A lot of nuance to the point. It's not to try to add a, a shade of meaning. Um. You know, we talked a lot about how parables, um, Christ tells parables in part to condemn the listeners who will not receive him, right? That's right.

This is one of those situations where it's not, it's not hiding the meaning of the parable from them. The meaning is so obvious that you couldn't miss it, and he, he appeals, we talked about in the first, in the first part of this, he actually appeals to like what the ordinary response would be. Right? What man of you having a hundred sheep if he loses one, does not.

Go and leave the 99. Like it's a scenario that anyone who goes, well, like, I wouldn't do that is, looks like an idiot. Like, that's, that's the point of the why. He phrases it. And so then you're right when he, when he begins with this, he says, or what woman having 10 silver coins if she loses one, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until he, till she finds it.

And of course, the, the, the emphasis again is like no one in their right mind would not do this. And I think like we think about a coin and like that's the smallest denomination of money that we have. Like, I wouldn't, like if I lost a, if I had 10 silver coin, 10 coins and I lost one of them, the most that that could be is what?

50 cents? Like the, like if I had a 50 cent piece or a silver dollar, I guess, like I could lose a dollar. We're not really talking about coins the way we think of coins, right? We're talking about, um. Um, you know, like denominations of money that are substantial in that timeframe. Like it, there was, there were small coins, but a silver coin would be a substantial amount of money to lose.

So we are not talking about a situation where this is, uh, a trivial kind of thing. She's not looking for, you know, I've, I've heard this parable sort of like unpacked where like, it's almost like a miserly seeking for like this lost coin. Interesting. It's not about, it's not about like. Penny pinching here, right?

She's not trying to find a tiny penny that isn't worth anything that's built into the parable, right? It's a silver coin. It's not just any coin. It's a silver coin. So she's, she's looking for this coin, um, because it is a significant amount of money and because she's lost it, she's lost something of her, of her overall wealth.

Like there's a real loss. Two, this that needs to be felt before he can really move on with the parable. It's not just like some small piece of property, like there's a

[00:26:57] Jesse Schwamb: right. I

[00:26:57] Tony Arsenal: don't know if you've ever lost a large amount of money, but I remember one time I was in, um, a. I was like, almost outta high school, and I had taken some money out of, um, out of the bank, some cash to make a purchase.

I think I was purchasing a laptop and I don't know why I, I don't, maybe I didn't have a credit card or I didn't have a debit card, but I was purchasing a laptop with cash. Right. And back then, like laptops, like this was not a super expensive laptop, but. It was a substantial amount of cash and I misplaced it and it was like, oh no, like, where is it?

And like, I went crazy trying to find it. This is the situation. She's lost a substantial amount of money. Um, this parable, unlike the last one, doesn't give you a relative amount of how many she has. Otherwise. She's just lost a significant amount of money. So she takes all these different steps to try to find it.

[00:27:44] Understanding the Parable's Context

[00:27:44] Tony Arsenal: We have to feel that loss before we really can grasp what the parable is trying to teach us.

[00:27:49] Jesse Schwamb: I like that, so I'm glad you brought that up because I ended up going down a rabbit hole with this whole coined situation.

[00:27:56] Tony Arsenal: Well, we're about to, Matt Whitman some of this, aren't we?

[00:27:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, I think so. But mainly because, and this is not really my own ideas here, there's, there's a lot I was able to kind of just read and kind.

Throw, throw something around this because I think you're absolutely right that Jesus is bringing an ES escalation here and it's almost like a little bit easier for us to understand the whole sheep thing. I think the context of the lost coin, like you're already saying, is a little bit less familiar to us, and so I got into this.

Rabbit hole over the question, why would this woman have 10 silver coins? I really got stuck on like, so why does she have these? And Jesus specific about that he's giving a particular context. Presumably those within his hearing in earshot understood this context far better than I did. So what I was surprised to see is that a lot of commentators you probably run into this, have stated or I guess promulgated this idea that the woman is young and unmarried and the 10 silver coins could.

Could represent a dowry. So in some way here too, like it's not just a lot of money, it's possible that this was her saving up and it was a witness to her availability for marriage.

[00:28:57] The Significance of the Lost Coin

[00:28:57] Jesse Schwamb: So e either way, if that's true or not, Jesus is really emphasizing to us there's significant and severe loss here. And so just like you said, it would be a fool who would just like say, oh, well that's too bad.

The coin is probably in here somewhere, but eh, I'm just gonna go about my normal business. Yeah. And forsake it. Like, let's, let's not worry about it. So. The emphasis then on this one is not so much like the leaving behind presumably can keep the remaining nine coins somewhere safe if you had them. But this effort and this diligence to, to go after and find this lost one.

So again, we know it's all about finding what was lost, but this kind of momentum that Jesus is bringing to this, like the severity of this by saying there was this woman, and of course like here we find that part of this parable isn't just in the, the kingdom of God's like this, like we were talking about before.

It's more than that because there's this expression of, again, the situation combined with these active verbs. I think we talked about last time that Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love.

Like in the first case, the shepherd brought his sheep home on his shoulders rather than leave it in the wilderness. And then here. The woman does like everything. She lights the candle, she sweeps the house. She basically turns the thing, the place upside down, searching diligently and spared no pains with this until she found her lost money.

And before we get into the whole rejoicing thing, it just strikes me that, you know, in the same way, I think what we have here is Christ affirming that he didn't spare himself. He's not gonna spare himself. When he undertakes to save sinners, he does all the things. He endures the cross scor in shame. He lays down his life for his friends.

There's no greater love than that. It cannot be shown, and so Christ's love is deep and mighty. It's like this woman doing all the things, tearing the place apart to ensure that that which she knew she had misplaced comes back to her. That the full value of everything that she knows is hers. Is safe and secure in her possession and so does the Lord Jesus rejoice the safe sinners in the same way.

And that's where this is incredibly powerful. It's not just, Hey, let me just say it to you one more time. There is a reemphasis here, but I like where you're going, this re-escalation. I think the first question is, why do the woman have this money? What purpose is it serving? And I think if we can at least try to appreciate some of that, then we see again how Jesus is going after that, which is that he, he wants to save the sinner.

He wants to save the soul. And all of the pleasure, then all of the rejoicing comes because, and, and as a result of that context.

[00:31:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:23] Theological Implications of God's People

[00:31:23] Tony Arsenal: The other thing, um, maybe, and, and I hope I'm not overreading again, we've, we've talked about the dangers of overreading, the parables, but I think there's a, and we'll, we'll come to this too when we get into the, um, prodigal son.

Um, there is this sense, I think in some theological traditions that. God is sort of like claiming a people who were not his own. Right. And one of the things that I love about the reform tradition, and, and I love it because this is the picture the Bible teaches, is the emphasis on the fact that God's people have been God's people.

As long as God has been pondering and con like contemplating them. So like we deny eternal justification, right? Justification happens in time and there's a real change in our status, in in time when, when the spirit applies, the benefits that Christ has purchased for us in redemption, right? But there's also a very real sense that God has been looking and considering us as his people in eternity past.

Like that's always. That's the nature of the Pactum salutes, the, you know, covenant of redemption election. The idea that like God is not saving a nameless, faceless people. He's not creating conditions that people can either move themselves into or take themselves out of. He has a concrete people. Who he is saving, who he has chosen.

He, he, you know, prior to our birth, he will redeem us. He now, he has redeemed us and he will preserve us in all of these parables, whether it's the sheep, the coin, or as we'll get to the prodigal sun next week or, or whenever. Um. It's not that God is discovering something new that he didn't have, or it's not that the woman is discovering a coin, right?

There's nothing more, uh, I think nothing more like sort of, uh, spontaneously delightful than like when you like buy a, like a jacket at the thrift store. Like you go to Salvation Army and you buy a jacket, you get home, you reach in the pocket and there's like a $10 bill and you're like, oh man, that's so, so great.

Or like, you find a, you find a. A $10 bill on the ground, or you find a quarter on the ground, right? Yeah. Or you find your own money. Well, and that that's, there's a different kind of joy, right? That's the point, is like, there's a delight that comes with finding something. And again, like we have to be careful about like, like not stealing, right?

But there's a different kind of joy that comes with like finding something that was not yours that now becomes yours. We talked about that with parables a couple weeks ago, right? There's a guy who finds it, he's, he's searching for pearls. He finds a pearl, and so he goes after he sells everything he has and he claims that pearl, but that wasn't his before the delight was in sort of finding something new.

These parables. The delight is in reclaiming and refining something that was yours that was once lost. Right? That's a different thing. And it paints a picture, a different picture of God than the other parables where, you know, the man kind of stumbles on treasure in a field or he finds a pearl that he was searching for, but it wasn't his pearl.

This is different. This is teaching us that God is, is zealous and jealous to reclaim that which was his, which was lost. Yes. Right. So, you know, we can get, we can, maybe we will next week, maybe we will dig into like super laps area versus infra laps. AIRism probably not, I don't necessarily wanna have that conversation.

But there is a reality in the Bible where God has a chosen people and they are his people, even before he redeems them.

[00:34:52] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.

[00:34:53] God's Relentless Pursuit of Sinners

[00:34:53] Tony Arsenal: These parables all emphasize that in a different way and part of what he's, part of what he's ribbing at with the Pharisees and the, and the scribes, and this is common across all of Christ's teaching in his interactions and we get into true Israel with, with Paul, I mean this is the consistent testimony of the New Testament, is that the people who thought they were God's people.

The, the Jewish leaders, especially the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, the, the sort of elites of, uh, first century Jewish believers, they really were convinced that they were God's people. And those dirty gentiles out there, they, they're not, and even in certain sense, like even the Jewish people out in the country who don't even, you know, they don't know the scriptures that like, even those people were maybe barely God's people.

Christ is coming in here and he is going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like you're asking me. You're surprised that I receive sinners and e with them. Well, I'm coming to claim that which is mine, which was lost, and the right response to that is not to turn your nose up at it. The right response is to rejoice with me that I have found my sheep that was lost, that I have reclaimed my coin that was lost.

And as we'll see later on, like he really needles them at the end of the, the, uh, parable of the prodigal son. This is something I, I have to be like intentional in my own life because I think sometimes we hear conversion stories and we have this sort of, I, I guess like, we'll call it like the, the Jonah I heresy, I dunno, we won't call it heresy, but like the, the, the like Jonah impulse that we all have to be really thankful for God's mercy in our life.

But sort of question whether God is. Merciful or even be a little bit upset when it seems that God is being merciful to those sinners over there. We have to really like, use these parables in our own lives to pound that out of our system because it's, it's ungodly and it's not what God is, is calling us.

And these parables really speak against that

[00:36:52] Jesse Schwamb: and all of us speak in. In that lost state, but that doesn't, I think like you're saying, mean that we are not God's already. That if he has established that from a trinity past, then we'd expect what others have said about God as the hound of heaven to be true.

And that is he comes and he chases down his own. What's interesting to me is exactly what you've said. We often recognize when we do this in reverse and we look at the parable of the lost son, all of these elements, how the father comes after him, how there's a cha singer coming to himself. There's this grand act of repentance.

I would argue all of that is in all of these parables. Not, not to a lesser extent, just to a different extent, but it's all there. So in terms of like couching this, and I think what we might use is like traditionally reformed language. And I, I don't want to say I'm overeating this, I hope I'm not at that same risk, but we see some of this like toll depravity and like the sinner is lost, unable to move forward, right?

There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. There is. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found.

The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. Yeah, it's in a slightly different way, but I think that's what we're meant to like take away from this. We're meant to lean into that a bit.

[00:38:12] Rejoicing in Salvation

[00:38:12] Jesse Schwamb: And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure.

Jesus has this real pleasure. The Holy Spirit has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. You know, it was Jesus, literally his food and drink like not to be too trite, but like his jam went upon the earth to finish the work, which he came to do. And there are many times when he says he ammi of being constrained in the spirit until this was accomplished.

And it's still his delight to show mercy like you're saying He is. And even Jonah recognizes that, right. He said like, I knew you were going to be a merciful God. And so he's far more willing to save sinners than sinners are to be saved. But that is the gospel level voice, isn't it? Because we can come kicking and screaming, but in God's great mercy, not because of works and unrighteousness, but because of his great mercy, he comes and he tears everything apart to rescue and to save those whom he's called to himself.

[00:39:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I love that old, um, Puritan phrase that wrath is God's alien work. And we, you know, like you gotta be careful when you start to talk that way. And the Puritans were definitely careful about everything. I mean, they were very specific when they spoke, but. When we talk about God's alien work and wrath being God's alien work, what we're saying is not, not that like somehow wrath is external to God.

Like that's not what we're getting at of Right. But when you look at scripture and, and here's something that I think, um. I, I don't know how I wanna say this. Like, I think we read that the road is narrow and the the, um, you know, few are those who find it. I think we read that and we somehow think like, yeah, God, God, like, really loves that.

Not a lot of people are saved. And I, I actually think that like, when we look at it, um, and, and again, like we have to be careful 'cause God, God. God decreed that which he is delighted by, and also that which glorifies him the most. Right? Right. But the picture that we get in scripture, and we have to take this seriously with all of the caveats that it's accommodated, it's anthropopathism that, you know, all of, all of the stuff we've talked about.

We did a whole series on systematic theology. We did like six episodes on Divine Simplicity and immutability. Like we we're, we're right in line with the historic tradition on that. All of those caveats, uh, all of those caveats in place, the Bible pic paints a picture of God such that he grieves over.

Those who are lost. Right? Right. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked. That's right. He, he, he seeks after the lost and he rejoices when he finds them. Right. He's, his, his Holy Spirit is grieved when we disobey him, his, his anger is kindled even towards his people in a paternal sense. Right. He disciplines us the way an angry father who loves us, would discipline us when we disobey him.

That is a real, that's a real thing. What exactly that means, how we can apply that to God is a very complicated conversation. And maybe sometimes it's more complicated than we, like, we make it more complicated than it needs to be for sure. Um, we wanna be careful to preserve God's changeness, his immutability, his simplicity, all of those things.

But at the end of the day, at. God grieves over lost sinners, and he rejoices when they come back. He rejoices when they return to him. Just as the shepherd who finds his lost sheep puts that sheep on his shoulders, right? That's not just because that's an easy way to carry a sheep, right? It's also like this picture of this loving.

Intimate situation where God pulls us onto himself and he, he wraps literally like wraps us around himself. Like there are times when, um. You know, I have a toddler and there are times where I have to carry that toddler, and it's, it's a fight, right? And I don't really enjoy doing it. He's squirming, he's fighting.

Then there are times where he needs me to hold him tight, and he, he snuggles in. When he falls down and hurts his leg, the first thing he does is he runs and he jumps on me, and he wants to be held tight, and there's a f there's a fatherly embrace there that not only brings comfort to my son. But it brings great joy to me to be able to comfort him that that dynamic in a, uh, a infinitely greater sense is at play here in the lost sheep.

And then there's this rejoicing. It's not just rejoicing that God is rejoicing, it's the angels that are rejoicing.

[00:42:43] The Joy of Redemption

[00:42:43] Tony Arsenal: It's the, it's other Christians. It's the great cloud of witnesses that are rejoicing when Aah sinner is returned to God. All of God's kingdom and everything that that includes, all of that is involved in this rejoicing.

That's why I think like in the first parable, in the parable of the lost sheep, it's joy in heaven. Right? It's sort of general joy in heaven. It's not specific. Then this one is even more specific. It's not just general joy in heaven. It's the angels of God. That's right. That are rejoicing. And then I think what we're gonna find, and we'll we'll tease this out when we get to the next par, well the figure in the prodigal son that is rejoicing.

The one that is leading the rejoicing, the chief rejoice is the one who's the standin for God in that parable.

[00:43:26] Jesse Schwamb: Right, exactly right. So,

[00:43:27] Tony Arsenal: so we have to, we have to both recognize that there's a true grief. A true sorrow that is appropriate to speak of God, um, as having when a sinner is lost. And there's also an equally appropriate way to speak about God rejoicing and being pleased and delighted when a sinner returns to him.

[00:43:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's the real payoff of this whole parable. I think, uh, maybe all three of them altogether, is that it is shocking how good the gospel is, which we're always saying, yeah, but I'm really always being moved, especially these last couple weeks with what Jesus is saying about how good, how truly unbelievable the gospel is.

And again, it draws us to the. Old Testament scriptures when even the Israel saying, who is like this? Who is like our God? So what's remarkable about this is that there's an infinite willingness on God's part to receive sinners.

[00:44:23] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:44:23] Jesse Schwamb: And however wicked a man may have been, and the day that he really turns from his wickedness and comes to God by Christ, God is well pleased and all of heaven with him, and God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, like you said, but God has pleasure and true repentance.

If all of that's true, then like day to day, here's what I, I think this means for us.

[00:44:41] Applying the Parable to Our Lives

[00:44:41] Jesse Schwamb: Is when we come to Christ for mercy and love and help and whatever anguish and perplexity and simpleness that we all have, and we all have it, we are going with the flow. If his own deepest wishes, we're not going against them.

And so this means that God has for us when we partake in the toning work of Christ, coming to Christ for forgiveness, communing with him despite our sinfulness, that we are laying hold of Christ's own deepest longing and joy.

[00:45:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And

[00:45:10] Jesse Schwamb: Jesus is comforted when we draw near the riches of his atoning work because as his body, even his own body in a way is being healed in this process.

And so we, along with it, that I think is the payoff here. That's what's just so remarkable is that not only, like you're saying, is all heaven kind of paying attention to this. Like they're cognizant of it. It's something worthy of their attention and their energies and their rejoicing. But again, it's showing that God is doing all of this work and so he keeps calling us and calling us and calling us over and over again and just like you said, the elect sinner, those estr belongs to God and his eternal purpose.

Even that by itself, we could just say full stop. Shut it down end the podcast. Yeah. That's just worthy to, to rejoice and, and ponder. But this is how strong I think we see like per election in particular, redemption in these passages. Christ died for his chief specifically crisis going after the lost coin, which already belongs to him.

So like you were saying, Tony, when you know, or maybe you don't know, but you've misplaced some kind of money and you put your hand in that pocket of that winter coat for the first time that season and out comes the piece of paper, that's whatever, 20 or whatever, you rejoice in that, right. Right. It's like this was mine.

I knew it was somewhere, it belonged to me, except that what's even better here is this woman tears her whole place apart to go after this one coin that she knows is hers and yet has been lost. I don't know what more it is to be said. I just cannot under emphasize. Or overemphasize how great God's love is in this like amazing condescension, so that when Jesus describes himself as being gentle and lowly or gentle and humble or gentle and humiliated, that I, I think as we understand the biblical text, it's not necessarily just that he's saying, well, I'm, I'm displaying.

Meekness power under control. When he says he's humble, he means put in this incredibly lowly state. Yeah. That the rescue mission, like you're saying, involves not just like, Hey, she lemme call you back. Hey, come over here, says uh. He goes and he picks it up. It's the ultimate rescue, picks it up and takes it back by his own volition, sacrificing everything or to do that and so does this woman in this particular instance, and it should lead us.

I think back to there's this virtuous cycle of seeing this, experiencing this. Being compelled by the law of Christ, as Paul says, by the power of the Holy Spirit and being regenerated and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping, and then repenting, and then worshiping. Because in the midst of that repentance and that beautifulness recognizing, as Isaiah says, all of these idols that we set up, that we run to, the one thing they cannot do for us is they cannot deal with sin.

They cannot bring cleanliness and righteousness through confession of sin. They cannot do that. So Christ is saying, come to the one you who are needy, you who have no money. To use another metaphor in the Bible, come and buy. And in doing so, we're saying, Christ, Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. And when he says, come, come, I, I've, I have already run.

After you come and be restored, come and be renewed. That which was lost my child. You have been found and I have rescued you.

[00:48:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And these, these are so, um, these two parables are so. Comfortable. Like, right, like they are there, there are certain passages of scripture that you can just like put on like a big fuzzy warm bathrobe on like sn a cold morning, a snuggy.

Yeah. I don't know if I want to go that far, but spirits are snuggy and, and these two are like that, right? Like, I know there are times where I feel like Christ redeemed me sort of begrudgingly, right? Mm-hmm. I think we have, we have this, um, concept in our mind of. Sort of the suffering servant, you know, like he's kind of like, ah, if I have to do it, I will.

Right, right. And, and like, I think we, we would, if, if we were the ones who were, were being tasked to redeem something, we might do it. You know, we might do it and we. We might feel a certain sense of satisfaction about it, but I can tell you that if I had a hundred sheep and I had lost one, I would not lay it on my shoulder rejoicing.

I would lay it on my shoulder. Frustrated and glad that I finally found it, but like. Right. Right. That's not what Christ did. That's right. Christ lays us on his shoulders rejoicing. Right. I know. Like when you lose something, it's frustrating and it's not just the loss of it that's frustrating. It's the time you have to take to find it.

And sometimes like, yeah, you're happy that you found it, but you're like, man, it would've just been nice if I hadn't lost this in

[00:49:36] Jesse Schwamb: the That's right.

[00:49:37] Tony Arsenal: This woman, there's none of that. There's no, um, there's no regret. There's no. Uh, there's no begrudging this to it. There's nothing. It's just rejoicing. She's so happy.

And it's funny, I can imagine, uh, maybe, maybe this is my own, uh, lack of sanctification here. I can imagine being that friend that's like, I gotta come over 'cause you found your coin, right? Like, I can be, I could imagine me that person, but Right. But honestly, like. This is a, this is a situation where she's so overcome with joy.

She just has to tell people about it. Yeah. She has to share it with people. It, it reminds me, and I've seen this, I've seen this, um, connection made in the past certainly isn't new to me. I don't, I don't have any specific sorts to say, but like the woman at the well, right. She gets this amazing redemption.

She gets this, this Messiah right in front of her. She leaves her buckets at the well, and she goes into a town of people who probably hate her, who think she's just the worst scum of society and she doesn't care. She goes into town to tell everybody about the fact that the Messiah has come, right? And they're so like stunned by the fact that she's doing it.

Like they come to see what it is like that's what we need to be like. So there's. There's an element here of not only the rejoicing of God, and again, like, I guess I'm surprised because I've, I've, I've never sort of really read this. Part, I've never read this into it too much or I've never like really pulled this out, but it, now that I'm gonna say it, it just seems logical, like not only is God rejoicing in this, but again, it should be calling us to rejoice, right?

Christ is. Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently? Like when's the last time? And I, I don't want to, this is, this can be a lot of loss. So again, like. God is not calling every single person to stand up on their lunch table at work, or, I don't know if God's calling anybody to stand up on the lunch table at work.

Right. To like, like scream about how happy they are that they're sick, happy, happy. But like, when's the last time you were so overcome with joy that in the right opportunity, it just over, like it just overcame you and you had to share it. I don't rem. Putting myself bare here, like I don't remember the last time that happened.

I share my faith with people, like my coworkers know that I'm a Christian and, um, my, they know that like, there are gonna be times where like I will bring biblical ethics and biblical concepts into my work. Like I regularly use bible examples to illustrate a principle I'm trying to teach my employees or, or I will regularly sort of.

In a meeting where there's some question about what the right, not just like the correct thing to do, but the right thing to do. I will regularly bring biblical morality into those conversations. Nobody is surprised by that. Nobody's really offended by it. 'cause I just do it regularly. But I don't remember the last time where I was so overcome with joy because of my salvation that I just had to tell somebody.

Right. And that's a, that's a, that's an indictment on me. That's not an indictment on God. That's not an indictment on anyone else. That's an indictment on me. This parable is calling me to be more joyful about. My salvation.

[00:52:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. One of the, I think the best and easiest verses from Psalms to memorize is let the redeemed of the Lord say so.

Yes. Like, say something, speak up. There's, there's a great truth in what you're saying. Of course. And I think we mentioned this last time. There's a communal delight of redemption. And here we see that played out maybe a little bit more explicitly because the text says that the joy is before the angels, meaning that still God is the source of the joy.

In other words, the angels share in God's delight night, vice versa, and not even just in salvation itself, but the fact that God is delighted in this great salvation, that it shows the effectiveness of his saving power. All that he has designed will come to pass because he super intends his will over all things that all things, again are subservient to our salvation.

And here, why would that not bring him great joy? Because that's exactly what he intends and is able to do. And the angels rejoice along with him because his glory is revealed in his mighty power. So I'm, I'm with you. I mean, this reminds me. Of what the author of Hebrew says. This is chapter 12, just the first couple of verses.

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses in this communal kind of redemption of joy surrounding us. Laying aside every weight and the sin, which so easily entangles us, let us run that with endurance, the race that I set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who, for the joy, the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God for consider him who has endured such hostility by sinners against himself, so that you will not grow weary, fainting in heart.

[00:54:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, that's, uh, it's always good for us to end on scripture, so I won't try to add to that.

[00:54:34] Jesse Schwamb: That's the summary. That's what we learned. Yeah.

[00:54:36] Tony Arsenal: That's the summary, Jesse. Um, I'm so stoked to keep going on this series. Um, I, I think we're gonna have to probably take at least a couple weeks on the Parable of Prodigal Son because there's so much to it.

It's, it's a longer, uh, parable. So we'll come back next week. Um, take a little time, read through, uh, Luke 15, grab a decent commentary and, and do your homework so you can come into this conversation with us, ready to sort of soak in and marinate in God's word. And, and you know, this is one of those, um, one of those parables that I think that all of these parables, but like particularly this is one of those parables that I think we should tell other people what we're learning on this one.

I think there's always a place for us to share what we're learning, but it feels, it feels to me like this is something that is pertinent to Christians writ large. There is this sort of malaise and sense. Of a lack of joy that I think is really, yeah, there's almost like a spiritual depression in the church, and I don't use that term lightly like I have, I have friends and family members who suffer from clinical depression.

It's no joke. And there is a sort of like spiritual depression that settled in on the church in a lot of ways. We live in a pretty depressing time. And, and I think that church is affected by that. We could all use a dose of joy and we just happen to be going into, I'll even say it, even though it's not my normal practice, like we're going into Christmas.

Like it's the season of joy. Right? Right. Tis the season to be jolly like, right. There's a, there's a joyfulness in. In Christ that should be coming out of us, and we need to spread that, that needs to be contagious to others. So if you've found this episode, um, helpful in driving you towards that, please do consider sharing it with a friend, right?

Whether you, whether you use it, word of mouth, you send a link through your, through a text message, whatever, please tell someone because, not because Jesse and I are something special, like we're just two guys who wanna talk about the Bible and we get it right. Sometimes we get it wrong, sometimes we're not.

Always a hundred percent sure which of those is which, but this is God's word. And if, if sharing a link to this podcast drives someone to take a look at Luke chapter 15 and, and be able to be drawn by the Holy Spirit to that scripture, then, then that's great. So please consider sharing this episode with a friend.

And if this episode has been helpful for you too, we don't usually ask for this, but um, please go to whatever podcast app you're using and if there's the ability to leave a rating, please do that. Um, it doesn't change the algorithm. It doesn't make it so like we appear higher in the search engines or anything, but people do really do a lot of times look at the ratings of a podcast if they're deciding if they want to invest time in it.

Right. Especially if they look at an episode, it's 59 minutes long. They're like, Ooh, do I really want to burn 59 minutes of my life on this? Oh yeah, you do. A lot of times the way they've. Figure that out is if they look at the ratings and the ratings say yes, this is a great show. So please take a few minutes.

If you can go give us a, a rating on, um, on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you happen to be, we would really appreciate it and we would love for you to be able to share this episode with someone who might need to hear it.

[00:57:34] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, so let's play a little game as we close. So as you've said, we've been through the parable Lost Sheep.

We've been through the parable of the Lost Chama and now the granddaddy, the big one is coming up, the whole culmination of this whole series and sets of parables that Jesus is delivering and he's emphasizing and emphasizing and building momentum and it's the big one. So Tony, I ask you for our coverage over or under two and a half episodes to do it.

I dunno, is that the right line?

[00:58:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think at least two we might, we might stretch into a third, especially since we probably need to come back and talk about how Matthew covers this same subject a little differently. So I'll, I'll say at least two and a half, uh, and maybe the second half of that third one will be coming back to Matthew.

[00:58:22] Jesse Schwamb: So basically three, like, uh, yeah, you're over, which I think is probably the right call to make. So even there. We agreed. I, I felt like if I said three, that's like too many. You need a better line than that. You know? You gotta do it on the halves too, because then that forces an actual decision, which we really didn't make anyway.

'cause we basically just said two and a half.

[00:58:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Two and a half. Yeah. Well, Jesse, without further ado, let's, the sooner we get done with this, the sooner we can get onto the next. That's not actually how time works either, but it's just a good way to close the podcast. So it, if you're listening though, it's true.

It it is. It does. If you're listening, especially if you're listening. Nevermind. I'm gonna stop now. Until next time, Jesse, honor everyone. Love the brotherhood.

In episode 471 of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal begin a multi-part series on Jesus's parables of lost things in Luke 15. This first installment focuses on the Parable of the Lost Sheep, exploring how Jesus uses this story to reveal God's disposition toward sinners. The hosts examine the contextual significance of this teaching as Jesus's response to the Pharisees' criticism of his fellowship with tax collectors and sinners. Through careful analysis of the text, they unpack how this parable not only rebukes religious self-righteousness but also reveals the active, seeking love of Christ for His own. The discussion highlights the profound theological truth that God's joy is made complete in the restoration of His lost children.

Key Takeaways

• The Parable of the Lost Sheep demonstrates Christ's heart for sinners, showing that seeking the lost is not exceptional behavior but the expected norm for those who understand God's character.
• Jesus positions this parable as a direct response to the Pharisees' criticism, turning their accusation ("he eats with sinners") into an affirmation of His mission and identity.
• The lost sheep represents those who belong to Christ but have gone astray; the shepherd's pursuit illustrates Christ's commitment to recover all whom the Father has given Him.
• God's rejoicing over one repentant sinner reveals a profound theological truth: divine joy increases in the act of showing mercy and restoring the lost.
• The shepherd's willingness to leave the 99 to find the one reflects not recklessness but the infinite value God places on each of His children.
• Regular worship practices, including family worship and congregational singing, reflect the same disposition of praise that heaven displays when sinners return to God.
• The parable serves not only as a comfort to sinners but as a challenge to believers to adopt God's heart toward the lost rather than the judgmental attitude of the Pharisees.

Understanding the Shepherd's Heart

The central focus of the Parable of the Lost Sheep is not simply God's willingness to receive sinners, but His active pursuit of them. As Tony Arsenal points out, Jesus presents the shepherd's search not as an extraordinary act of sacrifice, but as the obvious and expected response: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the one that is lost?" Jesus frames this as the normal behavior that any shepherd would exhibit, making the Pharisees' lack of concern for "lost sheep" appear not just uncompassionate but utterly irrational.

This reveals a profound truth about God's character: He is not passively waiting for sinners to find their way back to Him; He is actively seeking them out. As Jesse Schwamb emphasizes, "Christ's love is an active, working love." The shepherd does not merely hope the sheep will return; he goes after it until he finds it. This reflects God's covenant commitment to His people—those whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world. The parable thus powerfully illustrates the doctrines of divine election and effectual calling within a deeply personal and relational framework.

The Divine Joy in Restoration

Perhaps the most striking element of this parable is the emphasis on the shepherd's joy upon finding his lost sheep. This isn't merely relief at recovering lost property, but profound celebration that calls for community participation: "Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost." Jesse highlights Thomas Goodwin's profound insight that "Christ's own joy, comfort, happiness, and glory are increased and enlarged by his showing grace and mercy."

This suggests something remarkable about God's relationship with His people—that in some mysterious way, God's joy is made more complete in the act of showing mercy and restoring sinners. The hosts point out that this doesn't imply any deficiency in God, but rather reveals the relational nature of His love. When Jesus states that "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance," He's indicating that divine celebration isn't prompted merely by moral perfection but by restoration and reconciliation.

This understanding transforms how we approach God when we've strayed. As Jesse notes, "Jesus is never tired, flustered, or frustrated when we come to him for fresh forgiveness or renewed pardon." Our repentance doesn't merely avoid punishment; it actually brings joy to the heart of God. This is a profound comfort for believers struggling with sin and failure, assuring us that our return is met not with divine disappointment but with heavenly celebration.

Memorable Quotes

"This parable of the lost sheep gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children. It's really an exceptional and special window into God's design, his loving compassion for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us, for his children who are lost." - Jesse Schwamb

"He wants us to draw on his grace and mercy because it is inherently who he is. And he drew near to us in this incarnation so that his joy and ours could rise and fall together, which is insane that God would come and condescend to that degree that in his giving mercy and in ours receiving it, Christ gets more joy and comfort than we do when we come to him for help and mercy." - Jesse Schwamb

"Christ's love is an active working love. Just as the shepherd did not sit still, wailing for his lost sheep, so our blessed Lord did not sit still in heaven pitying sinners. He comes to us, he came to us, and he continues to draw to himself those who are sheep, who hear his voice." - Jesse Schwamb

Host Information

Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal are the hosts of The Reformed Brotherhood, a podcast that explores Reformed theology and its application to the Christian life. With a blend of theological depth and practical insight, they examine Scripture through the lens of historic Reformed doctrine, offering accessible teaching for believers seeking to grow in their understanding of the faith.

Resources Mentioned

• Scripture: Luke 15:1-7, Matthew 18, John 10
• Worship Resource: Sing The Worship Initiative (sing.theworshipinitiative.com)
• Theological Reference: Thomas Goodwin's writings on Christ's joy in redemption
• Brad Kafer and Michael Lewis, The Theocast Tragedy, episode 75, with guest Jeremy Marshall, November 16, 2025, https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-reclamation-podcast/id1747221237?i=1000736883898.
• Joshua Lewis and Michael Rowntree, The Theocast Split: Examining Christian Unity and Theological Differences, November 11, 2025, https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-remnant-radios-podcast/id1392545186?i=1000736293538.
• Daniel Vincent, Fallout of Theocast, November 15, 2025, https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-particular-baptist-podcast/id1512601040?i=1000736872315.
• Tony Arsenal, "A Refutation of Reformed Fringe," Reformed Arsenal, November 2025, https://reformedarsenal.com/category/a-refutation-of-reformed-fringe/.
• Tony Arsenal, "The Quest For Illegitimate Religious Gnosis: How 'Fringe' Theology Deforms Christology," Heidelblog, November 24, 2025, https://heidelblog.net/2025/11/the-quest-for-illegitimate-religious-gnosis-how-fringe-theology-deforms-christology/.

Full Transcript

[00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: And what's special about the series? Parables that we're about to look at is it gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children, which is not like, we haven't seen some of that already, but this is, I think, really an exceptional and special window into God's design.

His loving can compare for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us for his children who are lost. It's really unequal in all the parables and probably among some of the most famous, Welcome to episode 471 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:00:56] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.

[00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. You know, it seems like sometimes we could just summarize the teaching of Jesus like this. You get a parable and you get a parable, and you get a parable, and we've already, by looking at some of these parables, gotten to see what the kingdom of God means.

The kingdom of God is Jesus coming in His power. It's here, but also not yet. The kingdom of God is the judgment of God. The kingdom of God is a blessing of God. The kingdom of God is the treasure of God. And what's special about the series? Parables that we're about to look at is it gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children, which is not like, we haven't seen some of that already, but this is, I think, really an exceptional and special window into God's design.

His loving can compare for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us for his children who are lost. It's really unequal in all the parables and probably among some of the most famous, and I think we'll probably have some maybe like semi hot takes, maybe some like mid hot takes as the young kids say.

[00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: Mid hot takes.

[00:02:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.

[00:02:08] Tony Arsenal: So like

[00:02:09] Jesse Schwamb: lukewarm takes, well my thought is like, what is a hot take that's not heretical? Do you know what I mean? So it's gotta be, yeah,

[00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: there you go.

[00:02:16] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's like, listen, we want to be orthodox in our approach here, but I think we gotta, we gotta chew these up a little bit.

Like we gotta digest them, we gotta move them around in our gut and really take everything that we've, we thought we knew about these, we just heard and they've been written on cards or postcards or crocheted into, I guess you're not crocheting bible verses, but like cross stitching Bible verses on pillows and really go deep because I think there's so much here for us, and if this were like for, for everybody that wants to say that, sometimes we take a little bit too long with our series.

Again, I do have a question, simple question for all of those people. And that question is how dare you? And the second thing I would say is, you're lucky that you're not listening to a Puritan podcast. Maybe you never would, like at the Puritans in a podcast, the series would never end. They'd start with like a single verse and be like, we're gonna do two episodes on this.

And then they'd be getting to the like, you know, 4 71 and they still wouldn't have left like the, the first five words.

[00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. We move a little bit faster than that. Pace. Not much. Yeah. Way,

[00:03:15] Jesse Schwamb: listen, way faster. By like Puritan standards, we are cruising. Like we're, we're just like NASCAR going through these parables.

And to that end, I'll try to keep us moving though. I've already delayed us already because we're, we're late for affirmations.

[00:03:30] Affirmations and Denials

[00:03:30] Jesse Schwamb: Denials. The time is ripe. It is Now. The fields are gleaning with affirmations and denials. So let's, let's bring them in. Tony, are you denying against, are you affirming with something?

[00:03:40] Tony Arsenal: It's a little bit of both, I guess. Um, do it.

[00:03:44] Controversial Theology Discussion

[00:03:44] Tony Arsenal: A little while ago, uh, it was maybe back in September, I did an episode on, uh, some theology that was being propagated by a podcast called Reformed Fringe. Um, it was a solo episode, so if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to it. The affirmation here comes in, in, uh, the form of a show called, I think it's called The Reclamation Cast.

Um, there are a series of podcasts that have addressed some of the same issues. For those who haven't been following it, which I would assume is probably most of you, the issue is kind of blown up online. Um, Theo Cast, which was a pretty big a, a really big podcast in the, uh, sort of reformed ish, particular Baptist world.

Um, they actually split because of this. And so John Moffitt was one of the hosts. Justin Perdue was the other. And then John was also on this show called Reform Fringe with Doug Van Dorn. So I'm affirming some of these other podcasts that have covered the same issue, and I would encourage you to seek them out and listen to them.

I can can pull some links together for the show notes today. Um, more or less the, the issue that I identified, um, is beyond just sort of what's known as Divine Counsel Theology, which was made, made, really made popular by, um, Michael Heiser. I don't know that he would, we could say that he was necessarily like the.

Architect or inventor of that. I'm sure there are people who've had similar thoughts before that, but he's really the main name. Um, he's passed on now, but, um, Doug Van Dorn was a, uh, he's a Baptist pastor outta Col, uh, Colorado, who took his views and actually sort of like cranked him up and particularly.

Uh, troubling is the way he handles, um, the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. Um, I won't go into all of the details, but he wants to argue and he has argued in writing actually, and he, he published the paper first in 2015, and then again in 2024, he published it again, uh, with very minimal changes and nothing substantial.

It was really kind of contextual stuff. Um, he actually argues that in the Old Testament, when we see the angel of the Lord, it's not just, not just God appearing as an angel, it's God actually becoming an angel. And in his paper, at least, he argues, um, more or less that this is a sort of hypostatic union.

It's not just a temporary taking on of some sort of like outward appearance. Um, it's an actual, uh, uh, assumption of properties into the person of the sun. And the whole reason he makes this argument, which is why it's a little disingenuine, that now he's saying that's not what his argument was. He makes this argument in order to make it so the angel of the Lord can genuinely suffer, experience passions, change his mind, um, enter into covenant, come to know new knowledge, like there's all sorts of things that he wants the angel of the Lord to be able to actually do, not just accommodated, but actually.

Experience. Um, and he does that by having the angel of the Lord be an appropriation of angelic properties into the person of the sun, what we would call a hypostatic union. And in his paper, he actually says like, I would want to use all of the same language of, uh, of this union as I do of the incarnation.

He intentionally uses the words image and form kind of drawing from Philippians two. So the, the affirmation comes in and there are other podcasts that have identified this. So it's not just me. I would encourage people to go find them. Where the denial comes in is, um, there have been many people, including myself, who have attempted to engage with Doug Van Dorn, like publicly, directly, um, through private messaging.

There are many people who've tried to reach out to him, and he has just sort of waved all of them away. Which is one thing, if like you just say like, I don't really care to interact with you. I don't really care to have this discussion. But then he is also presenting the situation as though he, he is totally open to having these conversations and nobody is trying to reach out to him.

So I would encourage everyone, you're all reasonable people, search the scriptures, read what he has to say. The paper that he wrote is called Passing the Impassable pa or impassable Impasse, which is hard to say, but it's a very clever title. Um, and it was, it actually was written, I don't know a lot about this controversy and maybe I need to do a little bit more research.

It was actually written during a time where, um, the particular Baptist conventions that were out out west where experiencing a lot of internal controversy regarding impassability, and this was his proposal for how, how biblically you can still maintain the divine attributes of changeness and impassability all these things, uh, without compromising the real, the real passable, um, appearance that we see of the, of God in the Bible.

So. I don't wanna belabor the point. This is not the point of the show. We, I already did a whole episode on this. I've published, I wrote many blog articles. There's a lot that I've, I've put out on this. Um, so check it out, look at it. Wait for yourself. Um, the only reason I've been, this has come up in our telegram chat.

People have encountered this theology. Um, one, one guy was asking about it, 'cause I think like his mom or his aunt or someone close to him had, has been sort of reading Michael Heider's work. Michael Heiser was very instrumental at logos. He was on staff at Logos for quite a while. So a lot of their, um, more speculative theological articles that you might find on their website are written by him.

Um, he was a, one of the main people behind the sort of proprietary translation that, um, Laro uses the Lham, um, English Bible. So. It's not a neutral point. Pretty significant theological consequences if, uh, if our reading of what Doug is saying is correct. Um, and there doesn't seem to be any real openness to discussing that.

He has to be fair, he has published a series of affirmations and denials, um, affirming his a his orthodoxy saying he affirms the change changeness of the son. He denies that there was a hypothetic union. So that's encouraging. It's great to see that when it comes down to it. He's willing to make affirmations, uh, of orthodox things and to deny unorthodox things, but it doesn't really help the situation when those things and those affirmations, denials are still at very least difficult to reconcile with what he wrote.

I think in point of fact, they're actually contradictory to what he wrote. So the, the proper course of action would be for him to say, well, no, that's not what I meant. Or, or, yes, I wrote that, but that's not what I believe. Um, rather than to just try say, trying to say like, well, you all got it wrong.

There's a lot of people reading these papers looking at it going, Ooh, it sure seems like the sun took on an angelic nature, even if that was temporary. That's, that's got some pretty weird consequences for your theology. And one of the shows I was listening to made this point that I thought was interesting and a little scary is this is like an utterly new theology.

Um, no one that I've talked to who is aware of this, who studied these issues. Is aware of anyone ever saying anywhere that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament was some sort of like assumption of actual angelic properties into the person of the sun. Almost everywhere that you read. It's either a manifestation view where the sun is kind of appearing as an angel, um, but it's not actually becoming an angel.

It's, it's sort of taking on created medium, uh, in order to reveal himself or an instrumental view, which would be something like there's an angel that is used instrumentally by the Lord, and so we can say that it the angel of the Lord is the Lord in an instrumental sense, kind of like saying like if I pick up a hammer.

Use that hammer for as long as I'm using that hammer. The hammer is actually sort of an extension of me. I'm moving it, I'm motivating it, I'm controlling it, it's connected to me, and then I put it down when I'm finished. Those are kind of the two main views that people, people would argue in the Old Testament, if they want to even say that the angel of the Lord is a Christoph, it would either be this manifestation view or this instrumental view, this sort of weird novel assumption of properties view.

I'm, I've never encountered anything like that and I've studied this, this, this particular issue at some length. So check out the other episodes, I'll pull together some links, uh, of ones that have done it, both that have been, uh, critical of Doug's position. And also there was one, um, on remnant radio, which I never heard of, but, um, that was acknowledging that there are some question marks, but sort of saying like, this really is an overblown controversy.

Um, and then I'll link to Doug's podcast too, so you can listen to his own words and, and sort of think through it yourself.

[00:11:51] Jesse Schwamb: Some point I have this volition, you know, places, organizations, groups might have like FAQs, frequently asked questions. I have this idea to put together for us, like a frequently discussed topic.

This would be one of them. We've talked, or we co we've come back to this idea of like the molecule way, the messenger of the Lord many times. Yeah. In part because I think there's a good and natural curiosity among many when you're reading the scriptures and you see that's the angel of the Lord and you're trying to discern, is it Christoph?

And in some cases it seems more clear than others. For instance, the Maia appearing to, you know, Joshua, or, you know, there's, there's all kinds of instances in the scripture that draw us into this sense of like, well, who is it that is being represented here? And the funny thing about this though, and I agree with you, that like makes it.

Puts it in like, I would say contradistinction to like just kind of innocently wanting to understand is that there's a lot of theological gymnastics happening here, like a lot and two, it seems to me that he's kind of trying to create a problem to find a solution on this one. Yeah. And so it should give everybody that sense that we always talk about where like the red light goes off, the flags get thrown up, that when you hear that, you're just like, well, something is not right about that.

And the thing that's not right about it is one, it doesn't subscribe to, like you're saying, any kind of historical orthodoxy. And two, it's just funky for funky sake. It's, there's really a lot that's happening there to get to some kind of end, and it's better to know what that end is. I'm glad you brought that up.

So I think you can, everybody who's listening can weigh, like, if you. Don't wanna weigh into that, or you don't really need to solve the problem that's being created here, then don't bother with it altogether. Yeah. Uh, it's just not worth your time. But people, this is the hide thing. Like when, when we are challenged to be discerning people, when we are challenged to take scriptures at face value, there is always a tendency for us sometimes to go too deep, to get too wild with it, to try to turn around and bend it to, to answer all in every single question.

And even the reform tradition doesn't attempt to do that. So here, there is something that's beautiful about these certain mysteries of God and to take him at his face, to trust him in his word, we should seek, seek out many things. Some things are just not worth seeking out. So, you know, the Internet's gonna internet and people are gonna, people and theologians are gonna theologize.

And sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not that productive.

[00:14:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think to be as charitable as I possibly can be, I think, um, Doug is, has identified a legitimate. Question about the Old Testament, right? Right. The, the Bible appears when we read about God in the Old Testament. He appears to do things like change his mind, suffer yes.

Grieve experience passions. Right. Um, and, and so that's a real, um, question that needs to be answered as you read the Old Testament. Um, and the two options of course, or the two primary options of course, are either that God actually suffers, he actually experiences those things, in which case he wouldn't be a changeless God.

Um, he wouldn't be a perfect God because there's these, these modes of change within God. The other option would be that there's some sort of appearance of suffering or appearance of, of change or passions that is not actual, it's not real in the sense that he's not God's lying. It's not that God's lying to us, of course not.

But that these are appearances for our sake. We would say that's, we call that the doctrine of accommodation. Right. Um. What Doug tries to do is actually exactly what the church did in trying to understand how it could be that the second person of the Trinity suffered. Uh, why, why we can genuinely say that God suffered.

Um, we can say that and that the answer was the hypothetic union, and this is where it really kind of like jumped into full relief for me is Doug has the same answer for the Old Testament, but instead of an incarnation of humanity, I don't know what you would call it, an, an evangelization or a, something like that, um, he would probably call like a, some somatization.

Um, he uses the difference between Soma and sars as though that somehow answers the question. He says it's not a, an incarnation into sarks. It's a, an assumption of properties in da Soma. But in either case, like his answer is the same answer. That the way that the angel of the Lord suffers in the Old Testament is not according to his divine nature.

It's according to these angelic properties that are assumed into his person well. Okay, so like you get the same conclusion. There needs to be some explanation now of like, well, why is it a hypostatic union when it's the human nature, but it's not a hypostatic union when it's the angelic nature or angelic properties.

Um, and I think the, the real answer is that when Doug wrote those papers, he just didn't realize those implications. Um, Doug is a sharp guy, like, don't get me wrong, he's a smart guy. Um, I think he's got a pretty good grip on Hebrew and, and a lot of this too is, um. Not to make this more of an episode than it is, but, um, this Divine Council worldview at first feels like not that big of a deal when you, when you read about it the first time.

Um, or when you read sort of like popular treatments of it. Um, the real problem is that this divine council worldview, um, which I'm not gonna define again, you can look, I'll pull the radio episode or the other podcast episodes, but this divine council worldview becomes like the controlling meta narrative for the entire scripture for these guys.

And so if, if the son is to be the sort of lead Elohim on this divine council besides Yahweh himself, then he has to become an angel. He has to become a one of the sons of God in order to do this. Sort of almost ignoring the fact that like he already was the son of God. Like, it, it just becomes, um, this controlling meta-narrative.

And if all that this, all that this divine council worldview is saying is like, yes, there's a class of creatures. Um, that are spiritual in nature and the Bible uses the word Elohim to describe them and also uses the word Elohim to describe the one true God who's in an entirely different class. And it just happens to use the same, the same word to describe those two classes.

Okay. Like I would find a different way to say that that's maybe not as risky and confusing, but that would be fine. But this goes so much farther than than that. And now it has all these weird implications. He actually did a five, five-part sermon series at his church where his argument is essentially that like this.

This overarching narrative of the Sons of God and, and the 70 sons of God. Um, that that's actually the story that explains how salvation functions and what we're being saved to is we're not being swept into the life of the Trinity, which is kind of the classic Christian view, the classic orthodox view that because, because of who the son is by nature, in reference to the father, when we're adopted, we gain that same relationship with the father and the son and the spirit.

Um, he's, he's wanting to say, it's actually more like, no, we, we we're sort of brought onto this divine council as, as creator representatives of the cosmos. So it's, it, there's a lot to, it's, um, again, I, I don't want people just to take my word for it. I'm gonna provide as many receipts as I can, um, in the, the, um, show notes.

Um, but yeah, it's, it's weird and it, it's unnecessary and

[00:18:57] Jesse Schwamb: that's right.

[00:18:58] Tony Arsenal: It made a lot of sense to me when Michael Heiser went down these routes, because his whole program was, he had a, a podcast called The Naked Bible, and the whole idea was like he interprets the Bible apart from any prior interpretations, which of course we know is not possible.

But that was sort of his plan was he's. It wasn't necessarily anti cre, anti-real or anticon confessional. He just thought you needed to and could come to the Bible without any sort of pre interpretive, uh, positions. Um, so it made a lot of sense to me when he was like, well, yeah, this isn't the way that the historic tradition isn't understood this, but that doesn't matter.

But then you have someone like Doug Van Dorn come around who claims to be a 1689 Confessional Baptist. This is like radically foreign to that system of doctrine. So it's just a weird situation. It's kind of an abandonment of the pattern of sound words that handed down to us, the ages. Um, and it does have all these weird implications, and I'm not hearing loud and clear.

I am not saying Doug Van Dorn is not a Christian. Um, I do think that the implications of what he's teaching are heretical. Um, but we've made the distinction before that like, just because you teach something heretical doesn't mean you're a heretic. Um, that's a, that's a formal proclamation that the church officially makes not some dude on the internet with a podcast.

But the, the implications of his teaching are quite dangerous. So. Check it out. Read it with caution and with discernment, um, and with, you know, a good systematic theology that can help kind of correct you in your hands. And the creeds and the confessions. But dude, check it out. You, you're reasonable people.

Look at the scriptures yourself and make your own decisions. I don't expect anybody to ever just take my word for any of this stuff.

[00:20:25] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's right. Or like you said, don't bother with. Yeah. Or don't bother. Just read the confessions. Unaware of it. Yeah. That's also, okay. Stick to the, the, hopefully the good local preaching and teaching that you're receiving and just hang out there.

Yeah. And that's also okay. The internet is a super strange and weird place. Yeah. And that includes even among well intentions. Theology, sometimes it just gets weird. And this is one of those examples.

[00:20:51] Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. I often tell people that my, my goal in any sort of public teaching or podcasting or blogging or when I'm preaching, uh, my goal is to be as like vanilla reformed as I possibly can.

Like that's what I'm saying. There, there are times where like some of the stuff that I be, like, I, I'm not like straight down the middle on every single thing. There are things that I would, you know, like my view on, um, state relations with church like that, that's not exactly run of the mill vanilla presbyterianism.

Um, so there are definitely things where I'm, I'm sort of a little off center on, um, but I try to be like right down the middle of the vanilla, vanilla aisle here with maybe a little bit of chocolate sauce here and there. But it's, it's pretty, uh, my reform theology is pretty boring and I'm fine with that.

I love

[00:21:35] Jesse Schwamb: it. I love it. It's okay to be boring, isn't it? Like boring? It's is for the most part, right. On the money. Because often when we do take our views and we polarize them to some degree, we know that there's a greater probability propensity for the errors to lie there if you're always hanging out there.

Yeah. But especially in this, again, you've said all the right things it, it's just one of those things. But it's a good mark for all of us to understand that when we move so far away from orthodoxy that we're just kind of out on the pier by ourselves and you're looking around, you ought to ask what happened that you're out there so far.

[00:22:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, Jesse, save us from this train of thought. What are you affirming or denying today?

[00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: I hope I have something that's exactly the opposite. As you know, Tony, not all affirmations especially are created equal because sometimes we throw one out there and it's, it's good. We think it's great. Maybe not for everybody.

It doesn't resonate. It doesn't hit. This is not one of those, this is for everybody.

[00:22:24] The Importance of Daily Worship

[00:22:24] Jesse Schwamb: I'm coming in with a hot, strong affirmation, and that is one of the things you and I have promulgated for so long is the beauty, the necessity, the responsibility, and the joy of regular daily worship, and that can look.

Lots of ways, but I think you and I have tried in our own lives and we've spoken a lot about the high conviction that we have that that kinda worship should be participatory and it can involve reading the scriptures, praying, singing this spills over into convictions about family worship, leading our families, and that kinda experience, even if it's just a little bit every day and even if it's, we give it our best efforts, this is not like a kind of legalistic approach.

And so I just came across something that I think I've been testing for a while that I think is faab fabulous for everybody, could be helpful to you in daily worship. And I'm just gonna give you the website first and explain what it is. Secondly, so the website is sing the worship initiative.com. That's sing dot the worship initiative.com.

You can find it if it's easier. Just search the Worship initiative. What this is, is it is. Once you sign up for this, you'll actually get a text. It's a daily text, and that text will be a link in a browser every day. So it's not a podcast, but it comes through a browser every day. It is a time of, I would say, I'll use the word colloquially, it's a time of devotional with singing led by Shane and Shane and some of their other musicians and their friends.

And this is glorious. It's no more than 15 minutes, and it's purposely orchestrated to lead you or whoever's listening with you in singing, including in the app or rather in the browser. They will give you the words for the songs that they're gonna sing that day. And one, Shannon and Shane are fantastic musicians.

You wanna listen to this with a good speaker or set of, uh, earbuds because, uh, the music is great and it's very stripped down. It's just, it's just piano and a little bit guitar generally. Uh, but the speaking of the theological pieces of what's in these songs is fantastic. And this just past week, they've done songs like Crown Hit with Many Crowns.

Um, in Christ Alone, he will hold me fast, he will hold me fast, is an incredible piece of music and a piece of worship. So I'm just enjoying, they are using rich deeply theological songs to speak rich, deep theological truths, and then to invite you into a time of singing, like along with them. It's as if like they were just in your living room or in their kitchen and said, Hey, you got 15 minutes, especially start the day.

Why don't we gather around this table and why don't we worship together? So I haven't found something quite like this where it's like an invitation to participate, both by being active listeners into what they're saying, but by also singing together. So I. Can only come at this with a really hot affirmation because I'm being blessed by it.

And this rhythm of somebody like leading you daily into song, I'm finding to be so incredibly valuable. Of course, like we can find song in lots of places. We may lead ourselves, we may rely on the radio or a playlist to do that, but this kind of unique blend of a time that's being set apart, that's organized around a theme and then brings music into that as a form of meditation and worship is pretty singular.

So check out, sing the worship edition of.com and especially if you're a fan of Shane and Shane, you're gonna slide right into this and feel very blessed because they're talented musicians and what they're bringing, I think is a, is a rich theological practice of actual worship, not just devotionals of some kind, but like actual participatory worship of, of in spirit and truth.

[00:25:53] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I just signed up for this while you're talking. It took about a minute. It's super easy. So, um, and I'm sure that they have a way to opt out. If you start it and you hate it and you want to just stop getting text messages, I'm sure you can just respond, stop. Um, so there's really nothing to lose.

There's no gimmick. They don't ask for a credit card, anything like that. Um, and I, I'm with you, like I love me some Shane and Shane music, and I do like some Shane and Shane music, um, that, that like takes me way back. Those, there are a lot of singers who've been at this for a long time. Yes, Shane and Shane was like.

A really like popular band when I was in like, like upper high school. Oh yeah. So like, we're talking about a multi-decade career, long career doing mostly worship music, like they're performers, but they have entire, they have entire, many entire, um, albums that are psalms, um, entire albums that are worship choruses or what you might think of as chorus singing.

Um, so yeah, I think this is great. And I'm always looking for new ways to integrate worship into my life. So this could be something as simple as like, maybe you're not gonna be able to sing out loud, but you could listen to this on the bus on the way home. Or you could put in your air, your ear pods, uh, when you're, you know, doing the dishes and instead of just listening to another podcast.

I recognize the irony of saying that on a podcast that you may be listening to while you're doing the dishes, but instead of just listening to another podcast, you spend a little bit of time thinking about meditating on God's word. So that's great. I think that's an awesome, awesome information. A little

[00:27:20] Jesse Schwamb: bit like very casual liturgy, but you're right, they've been around for a while and this, the content that they're producing here strikes me as like very mature.

Yeah, both like in, of course, like the music they're doing and how they're singing, they're singing parts, but also just what they're speaking into. It's not just like kind of a, let's let tell you how this song impacted my life. They're, they're pulling from the scriptures and they're praying through.

They're giving you a moment to stop and pause and pray yourself. There's a lot that's, that's built in there. And can I give like one other challenge?

[00:27:47] Encouragement for Family Worship

[00:27:47] Jesse Schwamb: This, this came to me as well this week and I know we've had some conversation in the telegram chat about like family worship, leading our families in worship about somehow how do we model that?

How do we bring that together? And music often being a part of that. And I think that it's especially important for families to hear their. Their fathers and their husbands sing, no matter what your voice sounds like. Can I give a, a challenge? I think might sound crazy. This might be a hot, hot take. And so you can bring me back down instead of a mid hot take.

If it, yeah, if it's a little bit too hot. But I was reading an article, and this is really from that article, and it, it did challenge me. And the article basically challenged this and said, listen, most people are actually far more musical than they understand themselves to be. And that might just not be in the instrumentation of the voice, but in other ways.

And so the challenge was if you're a, a husband, a father, maybe you have some proclivity of music, maybe you have none. The challenge was basically, why don't you consider. Learning a musical instrument to lead your family in worship. And, and the challenge was basically like, pick up a guitar and, uh, see if you can eke out a couple of chords.

Work through that just for the sole purpose of if nothing else, but saying like, I want to participate in something differently in my home. And maybe that's getting a keyboard and just, just trying it there. If I can play the guitar, anybody truly I think can play the guitar. It's, it's not really that difficult.

I just found this captivating that this guy laid down the gauntlet and said, maybe you ought to consider doing that if only to be a model of worship in your own home throughout, throughout the week. And I just thought, you know what? That's something we're thinking about. I think all of us have something there.

And that might be for some, like, maybe it means strengthening your personal prayer closet. So like your example in time of, of corporate worship of your family is stronger. Maybe it means your study of the scriptures, not just of course for like pure devotional life, but to instruct or to practice that scripture for your family.

So I, I take this point of, it's not just about the music, but it could be if you're, if you're looking and saying like, man, I wish that we had some music. Um, you, you possibly could be the music. And it's just something to think about.

[00:29:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I'll say this. Uh, it's not that hard to play guitar, but Jesse is actually quite a talented guitar player, so even though he's right, it's not that difficult.

Uh, Jesse is, uh, is much better than he's letting on. But yeah, I mean, most modern worship songs, um, you can get by, you might have to like find a version online of it in this key, and you might not be able to sing it in this key, but like GC, D and E Minor. Yeah, that's right. We'll get you, we will get you basically every major worship song that you're used to singing.

And those are all very easy chords to play. Yes. Um, there are difficult chords and some, some worship songs are more difficult or the, the tone is more difficult. Um, but even, even something like that, or get a keyboard and just do, you know, you can just pluck out notes, right? You can write on the notes what the, what the name of the notes are and just pluck out notes so people can sing with it.

Um, there are lots of ways you can do, get a kazoo. You could lead music, you could lead your, that's your family in worship with a kazoo, um, or get the Trinity Salter hymnal app. Like, it's, yes, there are many ways that you could incorporate music in your family devotions and your personal devotions that, um, are not that challenging and, uh, really do add a lot.

Now, I know there are some, there are probably a few people in our, our listening audience that are acapella only people. And I respect that perspective and, and I understand where it comes from. But, um, even then, like this might also be a little bit of a hot take. I'm not an excellent singer. I'm not a terrible singer, but, um, I could be a better singer if I practiced a little bit.

And with the, with the ease of finding things like YouTube vocal coaches and right, just like vocal lessons and techniques and practice. Cool. Like, you could very easily improve your ability to sing and your confidence to sing, right? And that's only gonna help you to lead your family. I'll even throw this in there.

Um. I'm in a congregation with lots and lots and lots of young families. There are five pregnant couples in our church right now. Wow. And our church, our church is probably only about 70 people on an average Sunday. So five pregnant, uh, couples is a pretty high percentage. Um, what I will tell you is that when the congregation is singing, we have lots of men who sing and they sing loud.

But when the children are looking around at who is singing, they're not looking at the women, they're looking at the men. Right. Um, and you know, we're not, we are not like a hyper-masculinity podcast. We're not, you know, this isn't Michael Foster's show, this isn't the Art of Manhood. Um, but we've been pretty consistent.

Like, men lead the way. That's the way the Bible has, that's way God's created it. And that's the way the Bible teaches it. And if you're in the church. You are commanded to sing. It's not an option.

[00:32:28] The Importance of Singing in Church

[00:32:28] Tony Arsenal: But what I will tell you is that, um, singing loud and singing confidently and singing clearly and helping the congregation to sing by being able to project your voice and sing competently, uh, it does a lot for your church.

Yes. So it's never gonna be the wrong decision to improve your ability to sing and your confidence to sing. So I think that's great. I think the whole thing is great. You can learn to sing by listening to Shane and Shane and singing with them, and you can Yes. Invest a little bit of time and maybe a little bit of money in, in like an online vocal.

I mean, you can get something like Musician or something like that that has guitar, but also you can do vocal training through that. There's lots of resources out there to do that. So yes, I guess that's the challenge this week. Like, let's all get out there and improve our singing voices a little bit and, and see if we can, can do this together.

[00:33:14] Jesse Schwamb: I love it. I, I don't wanna belabor the points.

[00:33:16] Encouragement to Learn Musical Instruments

[00:33:16] Jesse Schwamb: I only bring it up because there might be somebody out there that's thinking, you know, I'd like to do more of that. And I say to you, well, why not you? It's okay. Like you could just go and explore and try get or borrow a relatively inexpensive guitar. And like you said, you don't need to learn to read music to do that.

You're just kind of learning some shapes and they correspond to certain letters in the alphabet. And in no time at all, you could be the person that's strumming out, eking out some chords and you're doing that at home. And that might be a great blessing. It might change your life. It might change the trajectory of how you serve in the church.

And you might find that God has equipped you to do those things. Yeah. And wouldn't it be lovely just to try some of those things out? So whatever, whatever they are, it's certainly worth trying and, and music is a big part of, I know like your life. Mine and it is someday. Tony, we have to do the sing episode.

I don't know that we've actually done that one, right? We just talk about what it like, is it a command that we sing and why I think we've

[00:34:08] Tony Arsenal: done that. I think we did have, we, it's early on in the episode on our views. Might have changed a little bit. So we maybe should um, we should loop back to, I'm sure we talked about 'em when we were going through Colossians as well.

[00:34:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think we did. I just dunno if we did, like, we're, we're just gonna set a whole hour aside and for us, that's definitely not an hour, but, and just talk about this in particular and like what, why do we sing and what, why does guy command this? And then why our voice is different and why do some people feel this, you know, sense of like why don't have a good voice and you know, we, you always hear people say like, well make a joyful noise.

And I think sometimes that falls flax. You're kinda like, yeah, but you don't know the noise I'm making you. That's kind of the response you hear. So some someday we'll come back to it, but I'm gonna make a prophetic announcement that there is no way we're going get through this one parable. No already. So.

[00:34:55] Introduction to the Parable of the Lost Sheep

[00:34:55] Jesse Schwamb: Everybody strap in because we'll do probably a part one. And if you're curious about where we're going, we're moving just away from Matthew for now, we're gonna be hanging out in Luke 15. We've got a trio of parables about lost things. And again, I think this is gonna be very common to many people. So I encourage you as best you can, as we read these to always start our conversation, try to strip away what you've heard before and let's just listen to the scripture.

[00:35:20] Reading and Analyzing the Parable

[00:35:20] Jesse Schwamb: So we're gonna start in Luke chapter 15 in verse one. I'm not even gonna give you the name of the parable because you will quickly discern which one it is. So this is the Luke chapter 15, beginning of verse one. Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Jesus to listen to him, and both the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them.

So he told them this parable saying. What man among you, if he has 100 sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the 99 in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it. And when he is found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors saying to them, rejoice with me for I found my lost sheep.

I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repentance than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance.

[00:36:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And yeah, this, this will definitely be a multi-part episode. And, and part of that is we just spent a half an hour talking about affirmations and denials.

I think we probably should have a podcast called Belaboring The Point, which is just us talking about other random stuff. Fair.

[00:36:33] Comparing the Parable in Luke and Matthew

[00:36:33] Tony Arsenal: But, um, the other part is that this parable is, um, slightly different in Luke as it is in Matthew.

[00:36:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:36:41] Tony Arsenal: Um, and also it's positioning in the narrative and what comes immediately following it is different.

And I think that's worth unpacking a little bit as we talk about it this week, next week and, and probably maybe even into a third week. Um, but the, the parable here on, on one level, like most parables is super, super straightforward, right? Like right. This is God's di, this is God's demeanor, and his disposition is that he seeks that which is lost, um, which is good news for us because all of us are lost.

There's only lost people until God finds them. Right. Um, and find again, of course, is an accommodated way of saying it's not like God has to go out searching for us. He knows where we are and he knows how to find us. Um. But this is also a different format for a parable, right? He's, he's not saying the kingdom of heaven is like this.

The parable is what man of you having a hundred sheep? Like the parable is a question Yes. Posed to the audience, and it, it is in the context here, and this is where, this is where looking at the parallels between different, different gospels and how it's presented and even the different variations here shows you, on one level it shows you that Jesus taught these parables in multiple different contexts and different occasions.

Right? In this occasion, it's he's sitting down, he's with the tax collectors and the sinners. They're grumbling. They're saying, this man eats with sinners. And receives them in, um, in Matthew, it's slightly different, right? He's in a different context and sit in a different teaching context. So the way that we understand that is that Christ taught these parables multiple places.

And so we should pay attention to the variation, not just because there's variation for variation's sake, but the way that they're positioned tells us something. So when he's telling the account in Luke, it's told as a corrective to the tax collectors and the um. Right on the Pharisees, um, who are, sorry.

It's a, it's a corrective to the Pharisees and the scribes who are grumbling about the tax collectors and the sinners drawing near to Christ. And so he speaks to the Pharisees and to the scribes and is like, well, which one of you wouldn't go seek out their lost sheep? Like, it's this question that just lays bare.

They're really sinful. Ridiculous Jonah. I just invented that. Like Jonah I perspective that like, oh, exactly how dare God go after how dare Christ eat with sinners and tax collectors? And he says, well, if you love something. If you love your sheep, you're going to go after your sheep.

[00:39:03] The Deeper Meaning of the Parable

[00:39:03] Tony Arsenal: You're not going to just abandon, uh, this sheep to its own devices, even though there is, and again, this is a, a comedy way of talking about like, even though there's some risk associated with going after the one sheep, because you do have to leave the 99, he still is saying like, this is the character.

This is my character speaking as grace. This is my character. This is the character of my father. And there's this implication of like, and it's obviously not the character of you. So I think this is a, this is a really great parable to sort of highlight that feature of parables when they're repeated across different, um, gospels.

We have to pay attention, not just to the words of the parables themselves, but what the teaching is in response to what the teaching like proceeds. We'll see when we look at Matthew, there's a very, there's a, a different. Flavor to the parable because of what he's going to be leading into in the teaching.

So I love this stuff. This has been such a great series to sort of like work through this because you, you really start to get these fine details.

[00:39:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This parable of the lost sheep is I think on the face straightforward, like you said. But it is actually complex. It's complex in the argumentation and the posturing Jesus takes here, like you said, he's binding the pharisee.

This is condemning question of like which one of you, like you said. So there's that, which is slightly different element than we've seen or covered so far. There's also the context, like you said, in which it happens and I think we need to think specifically about. Who is this lost? Who are the 99? Who are the ones that Jesus is really trying to draw in with conviction, but also, again, what is he saying about himself?

And it's way more, of course, like we're gonna say, well, this is again, that default, that heart posture. Even those things are more cliche than we mean them to be. Yeah. And we need to spend some time, I think, on all of these elements. And it starts with, at least in Luke, we get this really lovely context about when the teaching unfolds.

And even that is worth just setting down some roots for for just a second. Because what I find interesting here is I think there's a principle at play that we see where. Everything that everything gives. Jesus glory, all the things give him glory, even when his enemies come before him and seek to label him.

It's not as if Jesus appropriates that label, repurposes, it turns it for good. The very label, the things that they try to do to discredit him, to essentially disparage him, are the very things that make him who he is and show his loving and kindness to his people. And I think we'll come back to this like this, this sheep this, these are his children.

So these words that it starts with, that were evidently spoken with surprise and scorn, certainly not with pleasure and admiration. These ignorant guides of the Jews could not understand a religious preacher having anything to do with what they perceive to be wicked people. Yeah. And yet their words worked for good.

I mean, this is exactly like the theology of the cross. The very saying, which was meant for reproach, was adopted by Jesus as a true description of his ministry. It is true. He's the one who comes and sits and subs and communes and touches the sinners, the ugly, the unclean, the pariahs. It led to his speaking three of these particular parables in Luke in rapid succession.

For him to emphasize that he's taken all of what was literally true that the scribes of Pharisees said, and to emphasize that he is indeed the one who received sinners. It's not like he's just like saying, well, lemme put that on and wear that as a badge. He's saying. You do not understand God if you think that God does not receive sinners, to pardon them, to sanctify them, to make them fit for heaven.

It's his special office to do so. And this, I think therein lies this really dip deep and rich beauty of the gospel, that that's the end that he truly came into the world.

[00:42:47] Christ's Joy in Finding the Lost

[00:42:47] Jesse Schwamb: He came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. He came to the world to safe sinners, what he was upon Earth. He's now at the right hand of God and will be for all eternity.

And he's emphatically the sinner's friend. And without this reproach from the Pharisees, like we don't get this particular teaching and what they intended again, to be used to really discredit God, to say, look, how can this be the son of God? What we get then for all of eternity is some understanding of Christ.

And even here now with his word, we have this sense like, listen, do we feel bad? Do we feel wicked and guilty and deserving of God's wrath? Is there some remembrance of our past lives, the bitterness of sin to us? Is there some kind of recollection of our conduct for which we're ashamed? Then we are the very people who ought to apply to Christ.

And Christ demonstrates that here, that his love is an act of love. Just as we are pleading nothing good of our own and making no useless delay, we come because of this teaching to Christ and will receive graciously his part in freely. He gives us eternal life. He's the one who sinners. I'm so thankful for this parable because it sets up very clearly who Jesus is, and this is where we can say he is for us.

So let us not be lost for lack of applying to him that we may be saved. This text gives us the direct inroad to apply for that kind of healing and favor of God.

[00:44:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and I love, um, there is such a, um, subtle sort of SmackDown that Jesus does. Like, yeah. I, I think, um, just speaking on a purely human level for a second, like Jesus is such a master re tion.

Like he is so handy and capable to just dismantle and smack down people who, and I obviously, I don't mean that in like a sinful way. Like he just puts down the argument. He just gets it done with, and even the way this is phrased, right, they come, they're grumbling, this man receives sinners and meets with them.

So he told them this par ball, what, what man of you having a hundred sheep, if he lost one of them, doesn't leave the 99 in the open country and go after the one that is lost, right? So he's saying like, he jumps in right away, like. This is just the obvious answer. This is just the obvious state, like who would not go after their sheep.

I think we hear this, and again, I'm not an expert on like first century sheep herding practices, right? But like we think of it, I look at it, I'm like, actually, like that seems like a really bad investment. Like it would be really bad idea to go after the one sheep and leave your 99 in the open country.

That seems like a silly answer. That's my error. That's me being wrong because he's saying that as the obvious answer. Right? I think we sometimes, um, I've heard, I've heard sermons that preach this, that make it almost like this is a super reckless. You know, abandonment. Like he's so enamored with us that he leaves the 99 and he goes after the one, and he's taking such a huge risk.

But the way that this is presented, this is the obvious thing that anyone in their right mind would do if they lost a sheet. Right? For sure. Right? It's not an unusual response. Yes. There's an element of risk to that, and I think that's, that's part of the parable, right? There's a, there's a riskiness that he's adding to it because, um.

Again, we wanna be careful how we say this. Um, God's love is not reckless in the sense that we would normally think about reckless, but it's reckless in the sense that it, it es assumes sort of ordinary conventions of safety. Right? Right. That's not really what's at play here. Like the, the fact is Christ presents the scenario where you, you go after one lost sheep and leave your 99 in the open country or in Matthew, it's on the mountains.

Like that's the normal expected course here, such that if you are the person who won't do that, then you are the one that's out of the ordinary. But then he goes on to say, and this is where, where I think he's just such a master, he's such a master at setting a logical trap. Here he says, um. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors saying to them, rejoice with me for I have found my sheep that was lost.

And again, this is the expected answer. This is not some unusual situation where like people are like, oh man, he like, he had a party 'cause he found a sheep. That's strange. This is what, what would be expected, right? This would be the normal response. But then he says, just so I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance.

He is able, in the course of like. 30 words, like this is a short, short response. He's able to show them that their response to, to sinners is totally out of the ordinary. Like it's a, it's sort of an insane response. Um, he positions going after the one sheep and leaving the 99 as the sane response and leaving the, you know, leaving the one to be lost, leaving the sinners and tax collectors to be lost.

That's the insane response. Right. That's the one that like, nobody would do that though. Why would anybody do that? But then he goes to show like, but that's exactly what you're doing.

[00:47:55] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Right. And he

[00:47:56] Tony Arsenal: says, what you should be doing is rejoicing with me for, I found my lost, she. Right. He shifts. He shifts.

He's now the man in the parable saying, um, not just, uh, not just rejoice or not just I'm rejoicing, but he's summoning them to rejoice with him over the salvation of these lost sinners. And that is the normal expected response. And then he, he shows like there will be this rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents more so than if there was a, but, and we should address this too.

He's not saying that there is a such thing as a righteous person who needs no repentance. Right? He's saying like, even if there were 99 righteous people who need to know repentance, even if that was somehow the case, there would be more joy. There is more joy, there will be more joy over the sinner who repents than over a hun 99 people who didn't need to be saved.

Right? He makes the sin, the, the, um, Pharisees and the scribes look like total chumps and totally like. Totally self-absorbed and turned inwards on themselves in this tiny little master stroke that you wouldn't even, you wouldn't even think that that was part of the point. If it wasn't for the fact that it was positioned right after verse 15, one and two.

You just wouldn't get that from this parable. That there is this sort of like rhetorical SmackDown going on that I think is, is important for us to, to latch onto a little bit here.

[00:49:18] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, why is our podcast not three hours? Because there's so much I want to say, so. I'm totally with you. I like what you brought up about this recklessness of God, and I'm with you.

We shouldn't define that in the same way. Maybe we can modify it. I might say like His love is recklessly spend thrift. That is, we see when Paul says like God has lavished his love on us, like these big verbs that they are real. Yeah. It's not just hyper rip hyperbole or just like flowery language. And I think as you're speaking, what really occurred to me, what really kind of came through with what you're saying is, okay, what is this cost?

Why is he so particular to go after this one? And I think it's because it's, he's looking for his sheep. So these are his children. Yes. It's not just, I think Christ is out in the world because he will find his children. He will find the one who is. His own. So he is looking for his own sheep. One of his, one of his fold.

So like the sheep I might find in the world is the one that God has been seeking to save, even one of whom knows his name. That's like John 10, right? So one of, I think our problem is understanding this parable has to do with the when of our salvation. You know, we generally think it's at the time that, you know, we believe.

The people are those given to God before the foundation of the world. And God sees us as his people before we were ever born, even before the world began. And when we believe it is just our Lord finding us as his last sheep and we're returned to the fold. So he always goes after that one. So we'll learn more.

Like you said, when we look at Matthew's account about who are those other 90 nines. So we can set that aside, I suppose, for now. But it really is a matter of our status before Adam, before the fall, and then after Adam, after the fall, while all men fell with Adam. So also did God's people, which he had chosen before time began.

And so this idea of going after the one is bringing back into the fold that who is his child though, who he has made a promise, a covenantal promise to bring into the kingdom of heaven. I was thinking as well of this amazing quote and like, what that all means about God's love for us, which again, is just more than like, isn't it nice that when you are out in the world somewhere like God came to find you?

Yeah, that's fantastic. But I think it's even more than that. Like this is where I think we really need to dive into what it means that he's going after his sheep. It's, uh, Thomas Goodwin wrote this once about, uh, Christ's joy. He wrote this, Christ's own joy, comfort, happiness, and glory are increased and enlarged.

By his showing grace and mercy in pardoning relieving and comforting his members here on earth. And what I hear in that is something that I think is wild. In other words, Jesus, I don't think, doesn't just want us to draw on his grace and mercy because it just vindicates atoning work. Because like if Vindicates that he is an act shepherd, his love is active, he's out there in the field, he's going after his own, he's like you said, he's laying them on our on his shoulders and then he comes back and rejoices.

He wants us to draw on his grace and mercy because it is inherently who he is. And he drew near to us in this incarnation so that his joy and ours could rise and fall together, which is insane that God would come and condescend to that degree that in his giving mercy and in ours receiving it, that Goodwin is basically saying here that Christ gets more joy and comfort than we do when we come to him for help and mercy.

That is when he finds us, when he comes and celebrates that there's been restoration, that that celebration is real and that it forgives him and brings him great joy. What kind of love is that?

[00:52:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:52:49] Jesse Schwamb: That that is so dedicated to seeking his children out. That his joy is made greater as it were, in a sense, by him very much doing that, and by us repenting and coming before him, such that Jesus is never tired, flustered, or frustrated when we come to him for fresh forgiveness or for renewed.

Pardon? Or we find ourselves outside of the fold when we're distressed, when we have needs, when we're empty. I think this is the whole point of this parable. He comes to rescue us. He comes to heal over and over and over again because we are his children and he always goes and finds his own sheep.

[00:53:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:53:28] Conclusion and Community Engagement

[00:53:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, well, as we said, this'll be a, uh, at least two part, probably three or four part episode. Yeah. Um, because it's so good. There's so much here and so good. You know, as we kind of alluded to when we were, we sort of introed this, this parable along with the, in Luke at least, along with the following one, and the one after that really are one set of teaching.

Um, we are gonna jump into, into Matthew and how Matthew positions the parable a little bit differently. And I say that to say Christ positions the parable differently within his teaching. Um, but the variations are important and this is why, this is why God's word is so great, right? Yes. We could have just had like one version of this, one instance that this teaching was delivered, but God saw fit to preserve multiple, multiple applications of this one parable.

And this also tells us that like. The people who wanna say that a parable only has one point. Um, I think maybe like the Bible itself is against you on that because this parable is ba more or less the same in Matthew in terms of the actual words. There's some minor variations, but there nothing substan substantively different in the words, but where it comes in the context of the teaching gives it a very different flavor.

Not a different meaning entirely, but a very different flavor. So I'm excited to, to keep going on this. Um, we'll go through, we'll talk about the coin, we'll talk about the lost son, uh, the lost sons, the para prodigal, God. I mean that one has a thousand different ways to label it. Um, but I'm really stoked about this series so we don't have to spend a lot of time like landing the plane here 'cause we're not even gonna really land the plane.

We're just gonna keep going. So we're cruising at 20,000

[00:55:10] Jesse Schwamb: feet easy.

[00:55:11] Tony Arsenal: So we would love it if you'd join us in our Telegram channel. We mentioned it earlier, but you can go to t me slash Reform Brotherhood, uh, that is just a little corner of the internet that we've sliced out. It's a little chat program that you can run on your phone or in a browser.

Um, lots of different conversations happening at any given point, uh, but all of them are God centered. All of them Mar God glorifying, and it really is just a genuine, friendly place to be. There's not, uh, there's, there's been very little fighting or conflict. There's been almost nobody besides bots that get kicked outta the channel.

Um, it's a very low key, very low chill, low risk environment. Low chill, uh, low chill. It's not low chill. It's high chill, high chill, uber chill. It's the uber chill,

[00:55:53] Jesse Schwamb: uber chill. Um,

[00:55:54] Tony Arsenal: but you can check it out. T Me slash reform brotherhood. We'd love to have you jump in the conversation. Um, you know, find some new food to taste and take a video of it, uh, of yourself.

Or, you know, if you need prayer, there's a, there's a place for that. If you want some memes, there's a place for that. But check it out.

[00:56:10] Jesse Schwamb: Normally, this is where I'd say, here's what we learned in this conversation, but since it's gonna be ongoing instead, I'm just gonna end with a little question for you, Tony.

I'll ask it to you first and then I'll give you my answer and that, and I'll challenge everybody to answer this themselves. I think it'll help shape how we're just thought, think about what we just heard and also the couple weeks ahead. But, um, what's one time that you lost something and were overjoyed that you found it?

So for me, and this I think generally. It's often small things. I remember this time I was going out for a run. My wife was shopping. Now I don't do this anymore, so don't anybody get ideas about this. But I used to, don't do this anymore. I used to take my keys 'cause I didn't wanna run with them, like, you know, banging around in my pants while I was running.

I used to take them and put them under this like, medium-sized rock that was like right outside in the bushes by my, my house. And so I did that. I went for a run and I came back and I saw my wife Sky was here. And so I just went into the house. I guess I just realized I could go in the door, wasn't gonna be locked anymore.

And then of course the next day I went to go to work and like lost my mind. I, I just couldn't remember where the keys were searched everywhere, like tore up everything. Made lots of accusations of myself and everybody else about whether to move the keys. Maybe you've had this experience, maybe it's just me that needs to be more sanctified.

And so I remember when finally like it occurred to me like, oh. If they're outside, I went and grabbed them, you know, you turn over that rock and there they are in all their glory. They've never moved. They were there from the beginning. And I remember this vividly. My wife already like long left for work and I called her and I was like, I found the keys.

I found the keys. I'm so happy. And she was just like, okay. It's just like, are you good now? I was like, yeah. And for her it was like, that's no real news to me. Like, okay, great. Like you lost them. I'm glad that you fought them. But it did exemplify for me that really in the finding of something that joy is made, consummate, incomplete in the rejoicing over it with somebody else.

Yeah.

[00:58:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:58:07] Jesse Schwamb: Um, so let's say you can you think of like a time where like you lost something at big or small and then you were just overjoyed to find it?

[00:58:13] Tony Arsenal: The only thing I can think of, um, we have this little Noah's arc kit, um, for, for the kids. And this was before Adeline, uh, came around. Um, and we lost the little Noah figure.

We couldn't find it for a really, really long time. This is Noah. And, um, this was back when we were living in the parsonage. Augie was, uh, up jumping on the couch and he wanted to put the cushions down onto the floor in order to jump off the couch onto the floor. And when he pulled the cushion back, the little Noah figure was there and I was so excited to find it.

And I was like, Augie, we found Mr. Noah. We found Mr. And the funny part is that. And I know why you're laughing so much. The funny part is that this was also being converted to text to speech somehow, and it got sent out to our entire family group chat. Um, so everybody got a good laugh outta that, but there was, and he was so excited.

Uh, he doesn't even know who Mr. Noah is at this point, but he was excited that we found something. Um, and you know, there, there is also an element too that like sometimes something is lost and it changes the nature of things. Like for sure that Noah's arc kit was no longer Noah's a, it was just some animals on a boat.

That's true. Until we found Mr. Noah and put it all back together. Um, so that's probably the, the example of that comes to mind for me. I'm sure there's a better one floating around in here somewhere, but I, I'm pretty sleep deprived right now, so. May not come to the surface too easily.

[00:59:28] Jesse Schwamb: You, I, I really think it's the smaller things in particular that prove the point.

It's an argument from the lesser to the greater. So in that vein, now it's your turn. So go to t.me back slash reform brotherhood. Hang out in the telegram chat. And I have no doubt this will be part of, uh, this week's discussion from the episode is tell us something that, tell us the story. 'cause you, we know you got one where you lost something that was yours.

It was precious to you, no matter how valuable it was economically speaking, and you found it and you were overjoyed. And I think we got to tap into a little bit of that sensibility as we think about the weeks that are ahead for us.

[01:00:03] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[01:00:04] Jesse Schwamb: But more than anything, I think we gotta remember from our conversation tonight that Christ love.

Is an active working love. Just as the shepherd did not sit still, the wailing is lost sheep and, and we're gonna see the same kind of behavior in the other peril, the parables that follow. So our blessed Lord did not sit still in heaven pitting sinners. He comes to us, he came to us, and he continues to draw to himself those who are sheep, who hear his voice.

Let that be your encouragement this week.

[01:00:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way to end the show. So, Jesse, until next week, honor everyone.

[01:00:39] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Jesus's parable of the dragnet from Matthew 13:47-50. They examine how this often-overlooked parable reveals profound truths about God's kingdom, final judgment, and the ultimate separation of the righteous from the wicked. The hosts explore the rich Old Testament connections, particularly to Habakkuk, and demonstrate how this parable complements the parable of the wheat and tares while emphasizing the judgment aspect of God's kingdom. Through careful textual analysis and theological reflection, they remind listeners that God's sovereignty extends over both salvation and judgment, challenging believers to live faithfully in light of the coming sorting.

Key Takeaways

• The kingdom of Heaven encompasses both salvation for the righteous and judgment for the wicked - it's not merely about blessing but also includes God's sovereign rule over all outcomes.
• The dragnet imagery teaches that no one will escape God's judgment - everyone will be gathered and sorted, with no possibility of evasion.
• Hell is not the "absence of God" but rather experiencing God's presence without His grace - the unmediated wrath of God upon sinners.
• Jesus's use of fishing and "clean/unclean" imagery connects to Old Testament purity laws, reinforcing the idea that only those cleansed by Christ will be kept.
• While the parable of the wheat and tares focuses on present patience, the dragnet emphasizes the future judgment and final separation.
• Old Testament connections, particularly from Habakkuk and Ezekiel, show how God has consistently used "net" imagery to describe His sovereign judgment.
• Careful meditation on Scripture, especially Jesus's parables, reveals profound theological truths that casual reading might miss.

Expanded Explanations The Kingdom Encompasses Both Salvation and Judgment

The hosts identify a paradigm-shifting perspective in this parable: the kingdom of Heaven includes not just the blessing of the righteous but also the judgment of the wicked. Tony notes that Christians often think of God's kingdom only in terms of the elect enjoying fellowship with God, but this parable reveals that God's sovereignty and kingship extend to His judgment as well. The dragnet gathers everything in its path - both the "good" and "bad" fish - demonstrating that all people will be brought under Christ's authority for evaluation. This understanding challenges the common notion that hell is somehow outside God's domain. Rather, even the punishment of the wicked falls under God's sovereign reign. This more comprehensive view of God's kingdom reminds believers that God's authority is absolute and extends to every corner of creation and every spiritual reality.

The Inescapable Net of God's Judgment

Jesse highlights how the specific term "dragnet" (as translated in the LSB) carries significant theological weight. Unlike a typical fishing net cast from a single location, a dragnet was stretched between two boats and systematically pulled toward shore, catching everything in its path. This imagery powerfully communicates that no one will escape God's judgment - the net catches all kinds of fish indiscriminately. The hosts connect this to Old Testament passages, particularly in Habakkuk, where God's judgment is described as a net that captures entire nations. This emphasis on the comprehensive nature of judgment confronts our culture's belief that individuals might somehow avoid accountability before God. The parable teaches that all people will face judgment, with the difference being not whether they are caught in the net, but how they are categorized once caught. For believers, this underscores the necessity of being found "in Christ" when the sorting occurs.

Memorable Quotes

"Either way, you can't escape the net. This is profound because I think so much of our culture thinks they're gonna escape the net or the nets. They're gonna be able to get outside of the net." - Jesse Schwamb

"Hell is the absence of, is the presence of God absent grace, right? Unmediated... It's God's unmediated, absolute entire wrath poured out on wicked sinners. That's what hell is." - Tony Arsenal

"We gotta sit down at the table, take our time... Have the family style dinner passed around. Talk to everybody and set aside the time... We're taking our time to enjoy and to savor. And I think you and I are always trying to grow in that to some degree. But here again, we have just a lovely excuse to do a little savoring of the scripture." - Jesse Schwamb

Resources Mentioned

• Matthew 13:47-50 - The Parable of the Dragnet
• Habakkuk 1:14-17 - Old Testament "net" imagery
• Ezekiel 32:1-3 - God's judgment as a net
• Deuteronomy 14 - Clean and unclean animals
• The Legacy Standard Bible (LSB) - Recommended Bible translation
• "The Will of the Many" by James Islington
• "The Strength of the Few" by James Islington
• Reformed Brotherhood Telegram Channel - t.me/ReformBrotherhood

Full Transcript

[Full transcript available on our website]

In this thought-provoking episode, Tony and Jesse delve into Jesus's twin parables of the hidden treasure and the pearl of great price from Matthew 13:44-46. They explore the profound economic metaphor Jesus uses to illustrate the incomparable value of the Kingdom of Heaven. Through careful examination of both parables, they discuss what it means to "count the cost" of following Christ while simultaneously recognizing that no earthly sacrifice can compare to the infinite worth of gaining Christ. The conversation moves between practical application—considering how believers assess value in their spiritual lives—and deeper theological reflections on Christ's perfect sacrifice that makes our entrance into the Kingdom possible in the first place.

Key Takeaways

• The Kingdom of Heaven has such surpassing value that sacrificing everything to obtain it is considered a joyful exchange, not a loss.
• Both parables show different paths to discovering the Kingdom (unexpected finding vs. intentional seeking), but identical responses: selling everything to obtain the treasure.
• The parables are not primarily commanding material poverty, but rather illustrating the "sold-outness" required in pursuing the Kingdom of God.
• Counting the cost of discipleship is not only permissible but necessary to fully appreciate the value of what we gain in Christ.
• The ultimate treasure we receive in salvation is not merely benefits like eternal life, but God Himself—union with Christ and fellowship with the Trinity.
• Christ Himself is the one who ultimately fulfills these parables perfectly, giving everything to purchase us as His treasure.
• The irresistible draw of the Kingdom illustrates how God's grace works in the heart of believers, compelling joyful surrender.

Exploring the Incomparable Value of the Kingdom

The economic metaphor Jesus employs in these parables is striking—both the hidden treasure and the pearl are deemed so valuable that the discoverers "sell all they have" to obtain them. As Tony and Jesse point out, this transaction reveals something profound about how we should view the Kingdom of Heaven. It's not simply that the Kingdom is valuable; it's that its value so far exceeds anything else we possess that the comparison becomes almost absurd. As Tony notes, "For sure the worth of the kingdom of heaven surpasses anything we could imagine... there's no measure that is satisfying, there's no measure that can actually show us how worthwhile it is."

This perspective transforms how we understand sacrifice in the Christian life. When opportunities or comforts are foregone because of our faith, we're not simply losing something—we're experiencing the reality that we've chosen something infinitely more valuable. The parables teach us to view these moments not with regret but with a clearer vision of the treasure we've received in Christ.

The Ultimate Prize: God Himself

Perhaps the most powerful insight from the discussion is the realization that the ultimate treasure of salvation is not the benefits we receive, but God Himself. As Tony eloquently states: "All of those things are attending gifts. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God... we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. We get swept up into the life of the Trinity... We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that."

This perspective reshapes how we understand the value proposition of the gospel. It's not merely that we receive eternal life, freedom from suffering, or other benefits—though these are real. The pearl of great price is relationship with God Himself. This helps explain why both men in the parables respond with such dramatic, all-encompassing sacrifice. When we truly grasp what's being offered, nothing seems too great a price to pay.

Memorable Quotes

"What we get in salvation ultimately is we get God. We get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. We get swept up into the life of the Trinity... We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that."

— Tony Arsenal

"I often say in my own line of work, that cost only matters in the absence of value... it's like at the end of days when we think about the worthiness of our God, that there's no one like him, that he's unequal, that he has no rival, that the gospel is the sweetest message that we're rescued literally from the pit. We'll just say no matter what the cost of us personally, great or small, totally worth it."

— Jesse Schwamb

Full Transcript

[00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: All of those things are attending gifts. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the, the power of the Holy Spirit. We, we get swept up into the life of the, the God of the universe. Like the life of the Trinity indwells us.

And we, we become a part of that. We get swept up into that. We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that.

[00:00:47] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 469 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:00:54] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.

[00:00:59] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.

Discussing the Value of the Kingdom of Heaven

[00:01:00] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, we're back at it again with a whole new, or let's say different parable from our Lord and Savior Jesus.

And we've been talking about how really these parables give us this view of the face of heaven through these earthly glasses. And I am pretty interested in our conversation about what's coming up because sometimes we don't like to put too fine a points to our, our point of question to our faith. And in this case, we're gonna get to ask the question, what is it all worth, this kingdom of heaven, this rule and reign of Christ?

What is it all about? Who are the beneficiaries of it? And what is it all actually worth? There's a little bit of economics in this, so we're gonna get there. And while we talk and do a little affirming or denying, you should just go ahead write to just skip, go. Do not collect $200 or maybe. Pass, go and collect $200.

I dunno. But just go to Matthew chapter 13 and hang out there for just a second.

Affirmations and Denials

[00:01:58] Jesse Schwamb: But first, I'm always curious to know whenever we talk, are you gonna affirm with something or are you gonna die against something? We've been on a string of lots of affirmations, but I'd like to think that's just because we're fun, loving, optimistic people.

But there was a day where we had to do both. And now that I only have to choose one, I do find myself gravitating almost naturally toward the affirming width. But I leave it to you, Tony, are you affirming with or denying against?

[00:02:22] Tony Arsenal: I, unfortunately am denying tonight.

Technical Issues with Apple Podcasts

[00:02:25] Tony Arsenal: So you and I already talked about it a little bit, but uh, I'm denying Apple Podcast Connect.

Oh yes. So, uh, I. Obviously, like if you're affected by this, you're not hearing the episode 'cause it's not updating for you. But, uh, if you happen to be using Apple to listen to the podcast and for some reason you're listening somewhere else, maybe you realize that the podcast has not been updating for several weeks.

And so you went to a different podcast catcher. Um, apple just decided for some reason that none of our feeds were gonna update. No good reason. So I've got a ticket out to Apple and hopefully we'll get it fixed. Uh, if you do know someone who listens to the show and they use Apple, please tell them to subscribe to something else or to, uh, go to the website.

You can get all of the, all of the episodes on our website. You could go to Spotify, you could do something like, uh, overcast or PocketCasts. Um, it really is just Apple. It's, it's the actual account that we use to, uh, to access. Apple's Directory is not pulling new episodes and it's not pulling new episodes on another show that I run as well.

So, uh, it's not just this show, it's not our RSS feed. These things happen. It'll, you know, you'll get four or five episodes all at one time. When it, when it corrects itself, usually they're pretty quick. I put in a ticket like late on Friday afternoon, so I didn't expect them to get to it on, uh, Saturday or Sunday.

So hopefully by the time you're hearing this, uh, it's resolved. I would hope so, because that means it would be about a week from today. Um, so hopefully they'll have a resolve. But yeah, it's just th thorns and thistles. This is our own, our own, uh, manifestation of the curse here in this little labor that we do.

It's, it's thorns and thistles right now, but no big deal. Just, uh, catch up when you can. And, uh, yeah, so denying Apple Podcasts now, really, it's, it's a great service and this is a, a little glitch. It's, it's just a little frustrating.

[00:04:20] Jesse Schwamb: The sweat of our brow. Yes. Here it is. We're just toiling over getting Apple to please release our episodes.

Well, it'll be your happy day if you use Apple Podcasts and then get a bunch of them all at once. That's fantastic. It's like the gift that is over in abundance.

Supporting The Reformed Brotherhood

[00:04:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it is a good reminder that you just said, Tony, that everybody should go, just take some time. Head on over to our form brotherhood.com. You can find all the other 400 some odd episodes living over there.

And while you're over there and you're perusing or searching by topic to see what we've talked about before, you're probably gonna think to yourself, this is so incredible. How is this compendium, this omnibus of all these episodes just hanging out here free of cost? And I'm so glad you're thinking about that because there are so many lovely brothers and sisters who have decided just to give a little bit to make sure that all that stuff gets hosted for free for you Yeah.

And for us, so that anybody can go and explore it and find content that we hope will be edifying. So if that's something you're interested in, maybe you've been listening for a while and thought, you know what? I would like to give a little bit one time or reoccurring, we would love to, for you to join us in that mission.

You can go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood, and there's all the information for you to give if that's something that you feel you would like to do, and we would be grateful for you to do it.

[00:05:32] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. We, we have a group of people who support the show. They make it possible for your, uh, your ear holes to be filled with our voices.

And, uh, but again, you know, the costs are going up all around and, and we would, uh, certainly love to have people partner with us. Um, we've committed to making show that the, making sure that the show is free and available. Um, it's never our intention to put anything behind a paywall or to, to barrier and in that way, but we can only do that if there's people who are supporting the show and making, making sure that we've got the funding that we need to, to keep going.

So, thank you to everybody who gives, thank you to anyone who's considering it, uh, and thanking anybody who decides to, uh, jump on board with that.

[00:06:11] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. We're appreciative who we really are.

[00:06:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today?

Exploring Open Webcam DB

[00:06:16] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, this is what I've kind of done before, but I think I've found a new place for it.

I just am continually impressed and fall in love with how great and big and lovely God's world is. So I love these types of sites that give you insight into this great big world, even if it's in unexpected places or maybe in strange places. So I'm affirming with a website called Open webcam db.com.

Open webcam db.com. And it's exactly like what it sounds like. It's a database that has something like 2000 live cameras streaming daily from over 50 countries, all searchable by a category. So you can find natural landscapes, airports, construction sites, and one of my recent favorites, honestly, and this is.

It's so strange, but kind of awesome is this warehouse, it's called Chinese Robotic Warehouse Buzz, and it's just robots moving pallets around or like stacks of all of these items. It's mesmerizing. But I would encourage you go to open webcam db.com, search for like your stage or your country. You'll find so many amazing things.

So I've sat and just watched, you know, between tasks or when you know you just need a break or you're just curious about the world. Like I look, I watched the Krakow Maine Market Square quite a bit because it's. Beautiful and brilliant, and to think about the people moving to and fro and what they're doing, what their lives are like.

There's some great scenes from San Francisco Bay. There is a bird feeder in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania that I often watch. So of course, like go out as we've said, and live and breathe and be in your own communities. And as well, if you're looking at scratch that itch of just seeing all these different places, all the different things that are happening in God's created world, I can firmly and unreservedly recommend open webcam db.com for that.

[00:07:58] Tony Arsenal: Nice, nice, uh, little known fact at one point, Dartmouth Hitchcock, which is the hospital that I worked for, had to block a penguin cam, uh, because it was causing such a productivity drain combined with an actual measurable decrease in internet bandwidth at the hospital. 'cause so many people were watching this little penguin cam at some zoo in Boston.

I think it probably was. Yeah, I, I love this kind of stuff. I think this kind of stuff is great. Uh, I use, uh, Dartmouth College has a, like a live one that I use all the time, especially when we're trying to figure out what the weather's gonna do. You can see it on the camera. Uh, we, we often will, you know, see, especially as we get closer to the season when we're talking about traveling to the beach and whatnot, uh, often look at the ocean grove.

Oh, that's right. Uh, pier cam. So yeah, check it out. Uh, sounds like a fun time. Do not share it with too many of your friends at work. Or it may crash the network and Yeah. But

[00:08:53] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, for

[00:08:54] Tony Arsenal: sure. That was a funny email that they had to send out. I remember that

[00:08:57] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. Use, use the penguin cam responsibly. I just did a quick search.

There are four different penguin cams. Uh, three of them are in the United States, one is in New Zealand, and you better believe I'm gonna be checking those bad boys out. Yes. I didn't even think about. The penguin feature here and penguins are an amazing animal. Like we could stop right now and just shift our topic to penguins if you want to.

[00:09:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. '

[00:09:16] Jesse Schwamb: cause there's so much there. And the spiritual truths are so broad and deep, but I just think penguins are kind of undervalued. Birds. Everybody should go check them out.

[00:09:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're pretty cool.

[00:09:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Um, I'm like, I will watch any Penguin documentary and just be astounded by Penguin.

Like, whether they're Emperor Penguins or South African Penguin, wherever. I just think they're phenomenal and hilarious and seem to be living the dream. And he doesn't want a little bit of that.

[00:09:46] Tony Arsenal: You just gotta get Morgan Freeman to do the voiceover in any documentary or, or nature documentary is better with Morgan Freeman doing the voiceover.

[00:09:55] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I all, this might be a deep cut real quick, but I just learned this, and I'm guessing some of our listening brothers and sisters probably already know this. Maybe you do too, Tony. So, Benedict Cumberbatch, do you know where I'm going with this? Yep,

[00:10:06] Tony Arsenal: yep. Pen wing.

[00:10:07] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I didn't. I cannot say that word or stumbles over its pronunciation.

He did some kind of big documentary in which Penguins played at least some part. Yeah. And they were in an interview. They were giving him such a hard time because they played his reading of it like within the same kind of five minutes. And his, the word just kept degenerating in his mouth every time he said it.

So it became like almost undistinguishable from the actual word. And it's like initial pronunciation. It was so hilarious. Apparently it's a big joke on the internet and I just didn't know it.

[00:10:38] Tony Arsenal: Especially for someone like Bent Cumberbatch who just is, uh, like he's a world-class voice actor.

[00:10:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:10:45] Tony Arsenal: And like a super smart ude guy and he just can't say the word penguin and penguin.

Yeah.

[00:10:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. He said, you got everybody go look it up. 'cause it is super hilarious. And now it's kind of gotten stuck in my head. But um, again, this suddenly became like the All Penguin episode all of a sudden.

[00:11:01] Tony Arsenal: I mean like, he can pronounce his own last name just fine, but the word penguin escapes him. I like to call 'em blueberry crumble bottom or whatever.

Crumble bunch.

[00:11:11] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, see that's the good stuff right there. That's what everybody we know. This is what you all tune in for. This is what you're missing when Apple Podcast doesn't send everything out on time. Yeah. You're welcome.

[00:11:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

The Parable of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl

[00:11:23] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, why don't we, why don't we get into it? Because you know it, it's interesting.

Let's

[00:11:27] Jesse Schwamb: get into it.

[00:11:28] Tony Arsenal: Well, it's interesting because when you, you know, you kind of, we, we sort of do the little lead to the episode and I, I suddenly realized that I think I've been interpreting this parable very differently than maybe you have or other people. Great. Do, uh, because I, I think I, I think I might have a different take on it.

Let, let's do it. Yeah. So let's get into it. Uh, do you have the, the text in friend you wanna read? Uh, why don't we just do 44 all the way through 46? We'll do both parables in one reading. We'll come back and talk about it.

[00:11:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Sorry, everybody. So here's a two for one for you. Beginning in where we're in verse 44 of Matthew chapter 13.

This is Jesus speaking. The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy, he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field again. The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Interpreting the Parables

[00:12:22] Tony Arsenal: I think maybe this is the, like the beauty of parables, uh, when Christ doesn't give us a interpretation. I, I think we're, we're, we're not free to like make up whatever we want, but these kinds of teaching tools are useful because the fact that there can be multiple interpretations actually is, is probably intentional.

[00:12:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:12:43] Tony Arsenal: So it's funny because I think when you intro the episode here, it sounds like you're going to the kingdom of Heaven being a treasure hidden in a field, being something that we should sell everything we have and go after. And when I read this, I read it as the kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden a field.

And the man who is Jesus goes and sells all that. He has. He gives all that he has and buys the field. So, and I, I think this is one of those ones where like. Probably both of those things are in play. Sure. But it's interesting 'cause I've never, I've never really read this and thought about myself as the person who buys the field.

[00:13:19] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Interesting.

[00:13:20] Tony Arsenal: I've probably heard sermons or read devotionals where people have said that and it just never clicked. And it didn't register until just now. And you were, when you were, uh, introing the parable that maybe you are the, maybe your way of introing your, your interpretation. Maybe that's the dominant one.

So I, I looked at a couple quick, um, commentaries while you were speaking and I didn't get a chance to do my commentary reading before the episode. It seems like I'm the weird one. So, but it's interesting, um, 'cause again, I think that's the, kind of the beauty of parables is that sometimes the, the, um.

Ambiguity of what the possible meaning could be, probably plays into the, the, um, teaching technique itself.

[00:13:58] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I, I think that's fair. I totally can take and understand what your perspective is on this. What I find interesting is that these, we've got these two abutting each other, like the cheek to cheek parallel approach here, and in doing so, there seems to be like kind of an interesting comparison between the two.

Actors in this. And I think we should get into that. Like why in one case Jesus is talking about a person who finds this in a field, which by the way, I think the, the thing that jumps out to me first about that person is this person doesn't actually own the field at first. Right. That the treasure is in.

So that is interesting. I'm totally with you. But then the second one, so in the first one there's kinda almost like this sense, and I don't wanna like push this too far, but that this person who finds this treasure does so very unexpectedly, perhaps like he's even the hired hand and of course not the one who owns the field.

[00:14:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:14:49] Jesse Schwamb: And in the second case, we have somebody who almost is volitionally looking for this thing of great value, but finds the one thing above all the other things that they're used to looking for that clearly has the greatest and most. You know, essential worth and therefore the end is always the same in both of 'em.

They give everything they have. They're willing for forsake all other things with great joy, recognizing the great value that's in front of them. I think there is a place to understand that as Christ acting in those ways. I think there's also interesting, again, this comparison between these two people.

So I'm seeing this as we've got these varied beneficiaries of the kingdom. They both come to this place of the incomparable value of the kingdom, but then there's also like this expulsive power of the kingdom. All, all of that's, I think in there, and again, these are really, really, really brilliant, I think, because the more that you spend time meditating on these, the layers just kind of come and they fall away and you start to really consider, well, why again is Jesus using these two different characters?

Why is he using this kinda different sense of things of, of worth what the people are actually after? I think all of it's in play. You're totally right.

[00:15:54] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

The Cost and Value of the Kingdom of Heaven

[00:15:55] Tony Arsenal: So I think, you know, when we think about the kingdom of heaven, when we think about these perils, we made this point last week, we shouldn't, um, we shouldn't restrict, we have to be careful not to restrict the comparison to just like the first noun that comes up,

[00:16:08] Jesse Schwamb: right?

[00:16:08] Tony Arsenal: So it's not just that the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure, it, it is like a treasure, but it's like a treasure that's hidden in a field.

Yes.

And it's not just like a treasure that's hidden in a field, it's a treasure that's hidden in a field which a man found and covered up.

Right?

So, so like we have to look at that whole sequence.

And I think, I think, um, you know, obviously like the, the interpretation that we are the, we're the man who finds the kingdom of heaven and we, you know, we go and buy the field. Um, that, that obviously makes perfect sense now that I'm looking at a few different commentaries. It seems to be the predominant way that this gets interpreted.

And we, we look at it and we say, what, well, what does this mean for like our Christian life? Like. What does it mean? Do we have to, do we have to give everything away? Do we have to sell everything we have? Is that the point of the parable? I think some people make that the point of the parable. Um, I'm not convinced that that actually is the point of the parable.

Um, because it, you know, it, it, it just, there's lots in the scripture that, that, uh, doesn't seem to require that Christians automatically like, give away everything they have. Um, maybe that's your calling. Maybe it is something that God's calling you to do to sort of, um, divest yourself of your, your belongings, either to sort of fight materialism or greed or, or just because like you're gonna need to have that fluidity and liquidity to your assets 'cause you're gonna need to move around or whatever it is.

But I don't think we look at this parable and have like a, like a, a command for a life of poverty or something like that.

Right.

Um, really this is more about the. Utter sold outness of the Christian to pursue and seek the kingdom of God.

[00:17:48] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Right.

[00:17:49] Tony Arsenal: And and I think that that's the same in both, even though the way that the person in the parables comes a, comes across the kingdom or they come across this, this thing of great value or thing of great price, that they find their response in both parables is the same.

And to me, that that actually tells me that that's more the point of these parables. Um, or, or maybe we shouldn't even think of these as two parables, right? Some of the introductory language that we see in when we transition from one parable to another, we don't really see that here. Uh, and if, if we're gonna follow that, actually we would be going to the next parable would also kind of fall into this.

But he says the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure. And then in 45 he says, again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls. We're gonna run into something like this later on when we get to like the parable of the lost sheep and the parable of lost coins. Where there are these distinct parables, but they're kind of stacked on top of each other in order to make a specific point.

All of the parables that are sort of in these parable stacks are making the same point. And so I think it's not so much about like, how do we find the Kingdom of Heaven or how do we come upon the kingdom of heaven? It's more about what do we do once we've come upon it? Once we've thrown it's, that's the point of the parable that we need to unpack.

[00:19:03] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. And I would add to that, like who is it that is the beneficiary of this kingdom? We have two different, very different individuals, which I, again, I think, we'll, we'll talk a little bit about, but I'm totally with you. I, I think it's, it's easier, it's almost too narrow and too easy to say. Well, this is really just about like physical ma or about wealth.

Like in some way the, what we're being taught here is that you have to get rid of everything of value in exchange for this. In some ways, that almost feels too transactional, doesn't it? As if like what, what we need to do is really buy the kingdom. We express our seriousness about this kingdom or the rule and reign of God by somehow just giving up everything that we own as if to prove that we're really worthy of receiving that kingdom that we prayed enough.

Right. That we've done enough, even though that we're contrite enough. Yeah. And all that stands like in direct opposition to the mercy and grace, which God gives to us through his son by the power of the Holy Spirit to bring us into this kingdom. So we know it can't really be about that. And so that leads me back again to just like the lovely details here.

And like you've already said in the first case, here's what really strikes me is. For probably most of us in the West, this idea of treasure is novel and maybe romantic. There's a adventure and an energy to it. Because we've all heard stories about this, whether it's like, I don't know, pirates of the Caribbean or the county Mount Cristo.

Like there's something about treasure finding some kind of, or national treasure. Sorry, that just came to my mind. Like I couldn't go any further without mentioning Nick Cage. So you know, like there's something there that pulls us in that finding this thing almost unexpectedly in a hidden place of immense worth and value is, has a real draw to it.

But I imagine that in Palestine being like a war torn region in Jesus' day, in the way people might store goods of great value in the fields they own. And then of course the owner may never be able to achieve for lots of reasons, including death. And then somebody might stumble upon it. And as I understand the, the laws there, of course, if you were to stumble upon something.

I was in somebody else's property and and on earth that thing take it out of the ground. In this case, you would be by law required to bring that back to the person who owned the field. So there's something interesting here that this first person, probably the more meager and humble of the two with they at least respected, like their socioeconomic status is let's, we could presume maybe going about their normal work.

They find this unexpectedly in the field and it's immediately recognized to be something of great value that it is to stop and to, again, there's like a measuring that happens behind the scenes. This person at least is measuring of all the things that I own, all things I could possibly own. The better thing for me to do is to consolidate all the rest of my wealth.

And this case, again, it's not the message of the story to do this, it's the exemplification of what's happening here. This person is so sold out to ensure that they acquire this great treasure that they stumbled upon, that they will take literally everything else of value that they own to exchange it for this very thing.

So I'm totally with you because I think the predominant message here is not like take all your wealth and make sure that you give it to the church or that it goes to ministry or to missions. That may all be well and good and it may all be the kind of calling that you receive. However, I think the principle message here is the kingdom of God is so valuable that losing everything on earth, but getting the kingdom is a happy trade off.

Like that's actually a really, really good deal. And so having the omnipotent saving reign of Christ in our lives is so valuable that if, if we lose everything in order to have it, it would be a joyful sacrifice.

[00:22:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think, um, I think there is a level of.

Encouragement in Sacrifice and Joy in the Kingdom

[00:22:27] Tony Arsenal: Sacrifice that happens for every Christian and.

I mean, I, I know there's a lot of people who they, uh, come to faith as young children and we've kind of talked about that as like, that's that testimony that, you know, I think everybody really wants is like they wish they never had a time that they didn't know Jesus and Right. I don't know any parent that I've ever spoken to, and I'm certainly not any different here that doesn't want that testimony for Jesus, but, or for, for their kids in their relationship with Jesus.

But. I think most people who come to faith at some point in their life when they're able to remember it, like they, they have a conscious memory of their conversion experience. There is this sort of sense of sacrifice and e even a sort of a sense of loss. Um, I think there, there are times where, and, and you know, I think maybe, um, even people who've always been in the faith, um, they probably can resonate with this.

I think there are times when we might look at how our lives could have been different or could be different if we weren't in the faith. Um, and, and sometimes there's a sort of wistfulness to that. Like being a Christian can sometimes be difficult right On, um, you know, maybe you miss a promotion opportunity because you're not willing to work on the Lord's day or because you're not willing to do something unethical.

Like you, you miss out on some sort of advancement and you think, well, if I could just, you know, if I could have just gotten past that, like my life would be much different. And what this parable teaches us is. That's an understandable, like that's an understandable emotion or response. Um, and there is this weighing of the cost.

And in the parable here, he, like you said, there's this calculation that goes on in the background. He finds this treasure, he makes the calculation that to have this treasure is worth. Everything it's worth everything he has. He sells everything he has, and he buys the field in order to get the treasure right.

And, and there's some interesting textual dynamics going on through this chapter. We've talked about how the parables kind of like the imagery across the parables in chapter 13 here of Matthew, they kind of flip certain figures around and almost, it's almost intentional because he is getting the treasure and the treasure.

The kingdom of heaven here is like the treasure, but he's also getting the field right. And the kingdom of heaven is, is the field in other parables. Um, but this, this calculation that happens, um. I don't know, maybe my heart is just sensitive to this right now. I, I, I, I feel like a lot of times we look at that sort of wis wistful second glance at what could have been if we were not Christians, and we automatically feel like that's gotta be a sinful impulse.

Like, how could I ever even consider what life might have been? Like this parable implies that that's the thing we actually have to do. You have to know and consider what it is you've sacrificed or will be sacrificing in order to make this transaction happen. You can't just blanketly say like, oh, of course.

You know, you've gotta, you've gotta count the cost, as it were, and then you have to actually make the purchase. So I think we should look at this as a source of encouragement. Um, like I said, I'm not sure why. I feel like maybe there's, maybe there's just a, a. I dunno, I'm feeling a little weird and charismatic right now.

I feel like this is something that I definitely need to be saying, like, I feel like someone needs to hear this. Maybe it's just me that needs to hear this. And that's, I'm tricking myself by thinking of someone else. But we are able, as Christians, I think God permits us and in some sense, maybe even expects and commands us to recognize what we have given to be Christians in order that we might realize how much we have gained with that transaction.

It's not just this like remorse or regret, um, for the sake of remorse or regret. It's to be able to see how good and how beautiful and how worth it is the kingdom of God, uh, to, to, to claim that.

[00:26:23] Jesse Schwamb: I like that there is a great discipline and a great joy in remembering worth and worthiness. So there's gonna be times, like you said, when it's hard and if you look back, look back at the ministry of Jesus, I've often thought that he's like a poor evangelizer from like modern standards.

Yeah. Because often people come to him and say things like. I, I wanna be part of the kingdom of God. Well, what do I need to do to enter the kingdom of God? And here you have like a seemingly a willing convert. And he always says things like this, like, you gotta go count the cost. Yeah. Like is, is this worth it to you?

Like you have to deny yourself, you have to hate your own father and your mother, and your wife and children, and brothers and sisters, even your own life. Otherwise you cannot be my disciple. And in this kind of language, it's clear that Jesus is saying you fail often. And maybe this goes back like you're saying, Tony, it's like the parable of the soil that you fail to really take into account what it means to follow with full fidelity, to commit yourself in a fully unencumbered way.

Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to consider that? And as human beings, we're just not good often at counting costs. We're not good at thinking about opportunity costs. And it's interesting here that we're called out to say, even if you've already purchased the field as so to speak, that as if you've been saved by Christ, to continue to remember how good it is to be in the kingdom of God.

And that the joy. Of knowing as like the Heidelberg Catechism says in the first question that all things are subservient to our salvation. Yeah. That incredible worth of, that should be a source of encouragement in times of great trial and tribulation, no matter how big or small, so that this joy that this person has when they go and sells everything he has and he buys this field, you know those details, like you're saying, do press us.

It really comes to us with this idea that we should be able to see plainly why having Christ is more valuable than all other things. If the omnipotence all wise, God is ruling, ruling over all things for our joy, then everything must be working for our good, no matter how painful and in the end, God is gonna triumph over all evil and all pain.

So this kingdom is a real treasure. Like it is a, it is a real. A real quantity in our life and our wellbeing and in our spiritual consistency, that'll ought demand some reflection of how valuable it truly is. And then knowing that in our minds, that like influencing our behavior, our other thought patterns, and then our actual feelings about stuff.

So that when, like you said, we're passed over, we're looked over, we're ridiculed for something, we go back and we count it all joy to be worthy of being part of God's kingdom, knowing that it was because of the entrance and acceptability and the identity in that kingdom that we experience. Those things, those hardships begin with.

[00:29:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, um, I don't want us to miss out on the fact that even as the parable may be encouraging or forcing us to think about. The cost. It, it really is trying to emphasize the great value of the kingdom. Right? Right. We, like I said, we, we don't just count the cost. In order to count the cost for its own sake.

We count the cost in order to understand the great blessing that is ours in Christ. Right. All I, I count all that I have as a loss compared to the greatness of Christ Jesus. And, um, I think we just don't often do that. I, I, I think as Christians, that's probably a thought that is in our head more as young Christians, especially if we come to the faith in, in a time in our life where we're aware of things like that.

We think about things like that.

Reflecting on the Cost of Faith

[00:29:59] Tony Arsenal: You know, I was 15 when I first came to faith and, um, I, I don't think I was in a frame of mind as a 15-year-old boy to think about, like. The cost of what I was doing, right? It's not like I was a particularly popular kid. I didn't have a, you know, I didn't, I wasn't unpopular, but it wasn't like I lost a ton of friends when I became a Christian.

I didn't really lose anything that was measurable. Um, but I do think that, as, you know, someone now in my forties, looking back at, you know, 15, 20, 25 years of, of Christian life, it's easy to see that things could have been different on a sort of temporal scale. Like my, my life could probably be more comfortable in terms of wealth or opportunities or other things that might, uh, aren't, aren't even bad things necessarily.

There is a sense of sacrifice. But again, God has brought us into this kingdom and he's given us parables like this and given us the ability to recognize. That we do have a cost, that there is a cost to be counted in order that we might now look at it and praise him for how great and glorious and valuable the gift that he's given us is.

Understanding the Parable of the Pearl

[00:31:08] Tony Arsenal: And so I think, you know, I think that's the same basic meaning of this second, second half of the same parable. I guess the, the pearl of great price or the pearl of great value. But it's not exactly the same, right? It's not like Christ is just repeating the same ver, you know, parable with, with different words for variation.

Um, every word is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching correction, reproof, and training and righteousness. And I had a, I had a prophet in, uh, in Bible college who would say like, difference means difference. And he was often talking about like minute things, like the difference, um, or why, why is this word used instead of that word?

This word would've worked. And, and the author chose that one. There's a reason for that. Difference means difference, but. Christ here chooses to, to tell the parable a second time, um, in a slightly different way. Uh, and Matthew chooses to record these in the same sense next to each other in slightly different ways.

So what, what do we, what do we wanna pull out of this second parable that's different and what do we think it's telling us that's a little bit different than the first version Y?

[00:32:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's a great question.

Diverse Approaches to the Kingdom of Heaven

[00:32:16] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, I love this idea because not until really, I was thinking about it this week when I read through them, was I really, again, drawn to the differences between these two main characters.

Interestingly, I think in both, and we can make the case that the, the treasure, the kingdom of heaven here represented in both this pearl or in this literal treasure is in a way hidden. Certainly the first man is not necessarily looking for, it's still revealed to him, but the second in a way. And on the other hand, he knew this guy knows treasure.

He's been seeking it with diligence in vigor, or at least like this is what he does for a living in his vocational career. He's out there trading pearls, presumably, and he knows something about them and how to evaluate them effectively. And so it's his business and he's dedicated himself to finding them.

And apparently he's seen plenty of them over the years. But then all of a sudden, and this is wild, the beautiful, all of a sudden, clearly the search comes to like an abrupt end because he finds this one of immeasurable value, so much beauty exceeding and value exceeding all the other ones. And he doesn't need to search anymore.

He just finds the one pearl that he can retire on a pearl with more than everything else. Or anything else that he's ever possessed and he gets it again. He does. And this brings him into symbol two with the first man. He does the same thing, then liquidate everything else and go after this one. Great pearl.

So to me, and I'm curious your perspective on this, I'm not necessarily promulgating that. Well, the first one is not a seeker and the second one is like a seeker of of God things. Right? There is though, like you said, a difference in their approach and what they're after. And so I think what we can take from this, at the very least, is that there is diversity in these beneficiaries of the kingdom of God that's covering everybody.

And just by these two kind of bookended or polar examples, that's what Jesus draws us to. But I would turn the question back to you. What do you think about this second guy? What do you think about the fact that his business is searching after these things? What? What do we take away from that?

[00:34:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

The Ultimate Value of the Kingdom

[00:34:07] Tony Arsenal: And you know, the thing that drop that jumps out to me immediately in the first parable, the kingdom of heaven is, is like the treasure hidden in the field,

[00:34:16] Jesse Schwamb: right?

[00:34:16] Tony Arsenal: In the second one, the kingdom of heaven is the merchant who's searching,

[00:34:20] Jesse Schwamb: right?

[00:34:20] Tony Arsenal: Right. The kingdom of heaven is like the merchant in search of fine pearls who finds one. That's right. And so I think that they kind of are like, almost like mirror images of each other, right? One of them is about the treasure and what it takes to come upon it and then obtain it.

The second is about the person who is coming upon the treasure and, and finding it. And then what it takes again to obtain that treasure. And I think, I think you're right, there is an element here that. Um, in this second parable, the person who is seeking for this treasure is one he's seeking for the treasure, right?

Right. You get the image in this, in this first parable that the dude just kind of stumbles upon it. Um, I've heard this Todd as like, it's actually more like a guy who's just walking through a field rather than like a person working the field. And I'm not sure that matters that much, but there is this sense in the first parable that the guy kind of stumbles upon it.

He wasn't looking, it wasn't what he was trying to do, but you're right in the second one, the kingdom of heaven, and this is where I, this is where I think I need to think more about it, is what does it mean for the kingdom of heaven to be like a merchant searching for fine pearls

right

[00:35:23] Jesse Schwamb: on.

[00:35:23] Tony Arsenal: Rather than the pearls being the kingdom of heaven, which is what we see in the first bearable.

Um, and I don't know the answer to that question. I think I need to, need to think about it and study it a little bit more. But I do like this distinction that in, in the first case, it's sort of a happy accident. And in the second case, this is, this is the life, this man's life work. He finds he's, he's in search of fine pearls.

I'm not sure I know exactly what he's trying to do with the fine pearls. It seems like it implies that he's a pearl merchant or a pearl trader, but then he finds this pearl. He doesn't seek to sell it. He buys it. Right.

[00:36:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right.

[00:36:00] Tony Arsenal: And, and the, the, the fact that the parable stops with him buying it sort of implies that like.

He actually is not going to sell it. He's just gonna keep this pearl. Now before the, the pearls, the, the source of the value of the pearls was kind of in the, the financial gain that selling or trading them could bring. But now he suddenly finds this pearl that is so valuable. It's so great, it's so beautiful.

Everything he was working to obtain before all of the money he's gathered by finding and selling pearls in the previous like mode of living. He now gets rid of all of that just to purchase this one pearl and presumably to keep it. And I think that again, is kind of a, kind of a, um, statement on our Christian life is that we, we probably have all sorts of things that we've been doing our whole life and we are seeking to, to move forward in our life.

And the kingdom of heaven is kind of the ultimate goal of all of that, for those who are in Christ, for those who are called according to his purpose. The purpose is not just to accumulate wealth. It's not even necessarily, uh, in and of itself to like grow in righteousness. It's to be transformed to the, uh, to the image of God's glory son, for the purpose of making him great, making his name renowned.

Right. When we look at that passage in Romans that have kind alluded to, he's, he would transform into the image of Christ so that he might be the first born among many brothers.

The Incomparable Worth of Salvation

[00:37:24] Tony Arsenal: Ultimately, our, our sanctification and glorification is about making Jesus great and glorified, um, to give him glory, to have our glorification reflect his already intrinsic glory and the gift that he gives us, and I think that's kind of, kind of in play here, is that.

Uh, we might have all sorts of goals in our life. We might have goals in our Christian life, um, that are good things that we should strive for, but at the end of the day, all of those things only serve to bring us to the kingdom of heaven, which is this pearl of great price that we, we purchase, we buy it and we just kind of hang onto it.

It is its own treasure and it's, it's not about what this, this treasure can bring to us,

right?

Which is what the fine pearls were before they were about what the merchant can find and sell. It's, it's now about just obtaining the pearl and enjoying that pearl. Um, which I think is a little bit different than, than, um, what I would've thought of with the par before.

[00:38:19] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think, I think you're actually onto something with the distinction because I think of. So much of my career has been spent in financial services among people who are buyers and sellers of things. They're traders. And the way I read this was very similar to what you were saying to me.

What resonated was if this gentleman or this person is. Trading, collecting these pearls. Presumably they have appreciation for the beauty of the pearl itself. So there is like something innate that draws them to this particular thing. And with that experience and with that knowledge and with that, that appreciation of that beauty.

I think when they see this other pearl, it moves from, well, why would I ever sell that? I've seen everything. This is the most beautiful pearl I've ever laid my eyes on. And now I want to keep it for me. I want to have it in my possession. I want to cherish it and not just keep it in the inventory and then turn around and sell it for markup, presumably, because there is no nothing that would be of greater value to this person.

'cause they just sold everything else that they had. So they, it's appreciation for the pearl itself. It's going after that finding and seeking that great beauty. And then that led me right into Philippians chapter four, where Paul writes the church in Philippi, beginning of verse eight. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever's honorable, whatever's just whatever's pure, whatever's lovely, whatever's commendable.

If there's any excellence, if there. Anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me. Practice these things and the god of peace will be with you. So this idea, like you and I, Tony, have talked about like the world has great wisdom, it has great knowledge, it has things that can lead us by way of common grace into certain amounts of peace.

But the pearl of great price, the seeking after the going after all these great things is to find the gospel, to be given the gospel it revealed to you. And then say everything else I count as a loss. Everything else is worthless compared to this thing. And if you're a person that can appreciate even just by turn of mind or God's influence in your life, you know, knowledge and wisdom, and you're seeking after that, which is the ultimate expression and representation of those things, and then you find you come upon this pearl of great price, the gospel wisdom and the beauty of God represented in his son Jesus Christ.

And you say, this is it. I, I know enough to know, again, by the regeneration that comes through the spirit, this is the real deal. Then I think the message still stands. We come through two different directions into the same final culminating point, which is there is a condition for having this kingdom of God, for having the king on your side as your friend, but the condition isn't like wealth or power or negotiating or intelligence or even good trading behavior or going out and finding the right thing.

The condition is that we prize the kingdom more than anything else we own. The point of selling everything in these parables is to simply show where our hearts are at. And so I often say in my own line of work, that cost only matters in the absence of value. Actually, it's true for everything that we. We presumably spend our time or our money on cost only matters in the absence of value.

And I think like you and I could do a fun little experiment where I don't know, you ever talking to somebody about something and you're paying a cost to have that service delivered to you and you're, and you're just like totally worth it, like I would do totally worth it. Like, yeah, that's kind of the vibe I'm getting here.

It's like at the end of days when we think about the worthiness of our God, that there's no one like him, that he's unequal, that he has no rival, that the gospel is the sweetest message that we're rescued literally from the pit. We're just say no matter what the cost of us personally, great or small, totally worth it, that that's what we'll be saying for all of eternity as we worship him.

[00:41:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think even more than saying, totally worth it. I think when we are given our new eyes to see, and we no longer see through a da a glass dimly, we're gonna recognize saying that it was worth, it is is like it's a pale, like it's a faulty answer to begin with because the, for sure the worth of the kingdom of heaven surpasses anything we could imagine.

And in our, you know, locked in little meat brains that we have now, we're kind of com we're just comparing it to. You know, like what, what we could have had or what we, what we've given up. Um, it, it's gonna be an incomparable comparison. Like there's no, there's no measure that is satisfying, there's no measure that can actually show us how, how worthwhile it is.

And, you know, we've, we've made a point of it, like the, the blessing of salvation and, and really like what it is that we're getting, uh, in, in the. You know, the Christian understanding of salvation, it's not, it's not an eternal destiny. It's not bigger mansions in heaven. It's not freedom from death. All of those things come with it.

All of those things are attending gifts. That's right. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the, the power of the Holy Spirit. We, we get swept up into the life of the, the God of the universe. Like the life of the Trinity indwells us.

And we, we become a part of that. Uh, not, not in the, you know, like. Eastern Orthodox deification sense, although I think there's a proper way we can talk about deification. Um, but we get swept up into that. We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that.

There's nothing that we could ever point to. Um, it's funny, my, my wife and I, um, this is a little corny, but, um, we'll often say to, to each other instead of saying, I love you more than anything, we'll say, I love you more than everything. Right. And, and it's, it's a way to say like. You could take all that there is in the world, everything that I have that I could possibly consider and sum up the value.

And I love my wife more than that. I love my children more than that. So it's not that I love them more than any one thing, it's that I love them more than everything combined. And this is even greater than that, right? We, we will look back at our lives and if, if it's even in our mind, if we even can, can comprehend anymore.

The idea of thinking about what it costs us to obtain this pearl of great value, which is the kingdom of heaven, which is just another way to say, is just fellowship with the God of the universe. Um, we'll look at it and say no matter what it was. No matter what it could have been, I would give everything I, I love God more than everything.

Right. Right. There's nothing that could ever possibly be considered that even comes close to what we gain in, in Christ Jesus, in union with, with God. And I think that's the point of this, like I think the guy who, um.

Christ's Perfect Sacrifice and Our Response

[00:44:58] Tony Arsenal: I think about what it would take for me to even like to sell everything, like the concept of selling everything I own.

I'm not even sure how I would do that, to be honest with you. Like, I don't even know the mechanism for that kind of thing. But the idea that there's anything that could be valuable enough that I would just sell every piece of human property that I have, there's probably nothing like that in this world.

Like, there probably isn't. And to, to take that comparison and then basically say like, that's just what the kingdom of God is like. 'cause that's the other thing I think we miss about parables is you, you only make a comparison when you can't describe something, um, analytically, right? There's the difference between analogically and analytically Ana lot analytically means we're able to actually quantify and explain it kind of in strict terms, right?

I can, I can say that, um, uh, a heavy object ways, X number of grams or it, you know, or, um. Pounds or whatever. I can, I can measure that and make an analytical statement, or I can make an analogy, an analogy that is comparative. Uh, but by definition, or almost by by nature of the thing, when you make that comparison, you're kind of saying like, not only is it like this, but it's actually it, like it's more like this than I can even describe.

Right? So when we're talking about the kingdom of Heaven here, and we say it's, it's like, it's like a man who goes, he finds a treasure and then he sells everything. He has to get that treasure. It's infinitely more like that than it actually can be described. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm rambling on that a little bit.

Maybe trying to describe something that can't be described is, is hard to do.

[00:46:35] Jesse Schwamb: It's, that's, yeah. But yeah, that's, that's very difficult to do. I'm actually totally with you on this. I think I understand clearly what you mean, this idea that no matter how hard we actually try to value it, we'll be incapable of doing so.

Yes. And at best, it almost seems like this is a strange command in a way because it's, it's asking us to do in some ways a thing that is impossible for us to do. However, I think what you're saying is it doesn't mean that we shouldn't turn our minds toward that. We're a bit like people who, I don't know if this show is still on PBS, but like, do you know that show, remember that show The Antiques Road Show?

Yeah. Where people would like come, they'd ran ransack their homes or their garages with these old antique items and they bring them to this road show where there'd be experts who would value them. And inevitably we'll be like those people who come with what we think is like a. A thousand dollars clock that we got at a garage sale thinking, wouldn't it be great?

I know this is valuable. It's probably a thousand dollars. It'll be, look at the return, tenfold return, I'll get on this item, and then instead finding that it's worth $10 million when it's appraised. Yeah, I assume it'll be just like that in the Beautific vision that even maybe for all of eternity will be growing in our appreciation for just how valuable this great salvation is.

And yet at the same time, I think what this should encourage us to do is to pray things like God make us real in seeing and savoring Christ in his saving work above all the other things. Yeah. So that, as you said in your example, we would cherish him above everything, above all things that you have that right place in our hearts or that we be inclined to undertake that posture, which says, God, though I cannot understand it in full.

Would you help me to see that?

Encouragement in Our Spiritual Journey

[00:48:08] Jesse Schwamb: And I wanna just say like, as a word of encouragement, maybe I'm speaking more to myself here so everybody else can disregard this if you like, but I think sometimes there can be a little bit of intimidation then when you hear these things and say like, ah, I'm just not, I just dunno if I love God enough, like I wanna love him, or I want to want to love him more.

And I think even that posture is appropriate. Yeah. Sometimes there, oftentimes in my personal life, I'll pray something like, God, help me to know how much you love me and would you give me the strength to love you back? So that even that awareness, that energy, that volition, that vitality, that, that heat, all of that, that fire itself is kindled by the Holy Spirit.

It's not like we need to like try to again manufacture here. Because the point of these, these stories is not again, that we just find the means to do a transactional exchange here, but that instead we really just sit in the full promises of God. And of course to that, I would say we always need to go back to, to something like Romans eight.

I mean, I know that we should, like you said, Tony, the. The standard description we give for the Bible is the one that gives itself, which is that all of it, all of it's is carried along by the Holy Spirit. All of it is God breathe. All of it is useful for something. And yet, of course, I say somewhat tongue in cheek that, you know, if I have 10 minutes to live, I'm probably not gonna the s descriptions of reading a genealogy, I'm going straight from Roman and say, Romans say, I think it's just like the pinnacle of the scriptures.

And so just a couple of verses at the end there, because I think this is, this is leading us into what is this great treasure? What is the kingdom of God? Why do we value it so much? What is the saving power? And uh, these verses, I mean, always just entirely get me ready to run through a wall. So this is the end of, of Romans eight beginning verse 35.

Who shall separate us from the law of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword as it is written for your sake. We are being killed all the day long. We are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered. No. In all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us for I'm sure that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from a love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

[00:50:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a good word. And I, I, I like what you're saying too, is, is I think we, we can. There's this paradoxical thing that happens when the scriptures is trying to encourage us to do something, is we often like to get our, in our own way. And, and actually that becomes a source of discouragement for us.

The Bible calls us to something and we know we can't live up to it. And that's actually like part and parcel of, of reform theology to recognize that this is law, like the, the, the, the, you know, maybe not in like the strict sense, like when we talk about dividing the scripture into law and gospel, um. It may not be that this particular passage would fall under that rubric of law normally, but this idea that we need to count the cost and that we need to be treasuring Christ more and more, and then when we feel like I'm just not getting it.

I'm just not there. Like, I don't, I don't treasure Christ as much as I so should. Um, that Yeah, that's right. Nobody does. Nobody can, like, that's, that's kind of the point of this, and that's why it's law is it's, it shouldn't drive you in Christ. It should not drive you to despair. Right. It should not drive you to discouragement.

It should drive you to gratitude that God saved you anyways. That, that this pearl of great value is still yours even though you can't possibly deserve it. Um, you know, we're, we're a little bit different than the, the merchant and the man who finds the treasure in the field in that we can't sell everything we have and obtain it like they have the ability to do that in the, in the parables.

Right. Um, we, we don't, and we never will. And so rather than let that drive you to being discouraged that like you're just not getting. I recognize God is of infinite value and we are finite creatures. So we, we could, uh, value God perfectly. Like whatever that means, and I don't even know what that means, but we could value and cherish and love God perfectly as far as our capacities are concerned, and it still would not be enough to sufficiently merit God's favor for us.

Like as much as we can, even in, even in eternity. As much as we can value and worship and love and praise Jesus, he is worth infinitely more than we could ever give, even when we do it perfectly. And this is, this is why you know Christ coming to die, to live on our behalf, to die in our place. Why that's necessary is because only this is a, maybe a different take on it.

We, I think we talk a lot about how, um. Only God could, could carry, bear the wrath of God and not be destroyed. Right. Right. Only God could, um, could stand up under his own wrath, could stand up under the wrath of God and bear that punishment and not be destroyed. And so therefore, um, Christ had to be not just a man, but had to be God.

But on the flip side. And God requires perfect perpetual obedience, which involves loving the Lord your God, perfectly with your whole heart at all times. Right? Only God can do that too. So it's not just that God. It's not just that God is bearing wrath perfectly and infinitely on our behalf, on the cross, but Jesus is also loving God perfectly and infinitely and truly worth, truly worthing.

Him. Wor worship is, the word comes from worth. It's about attributing wor worth to God, only Christ, because he is, God could do that sufficiently and perfectly and infinitely. So he's doing that on our behalf too, right? He's praying and interceding on our behalf. He's standing in God's presence worshiping him in heaven on our behalf.

[00:53:53] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.

[00:53:54] Tony Arsenal: That is what this parable should drive us to. That's right. Is to recognize that yes, the kingdom of heaven is this pearl of great price that we could, we could never sell enough and and be able to buy, but someone did. Someone couldn't. And I think maybe this is where, where, and we didn't talk about it and that's fine.

But I think this is where my understanding of these came from a little bit is I've always read these to say that it's, it's Christ who is like the man who finds a treasure in a field and gives all that he has and buys that field. Right? And I guess that kind of lines up with the way that the field has been portrayed in the rest of the chapter.

And maybe that's where I got it from. I don't know. Right. Um, I don't think I've ever read it. 'cause now that I've looked at a couple commentaries, none of them make this connection. So I, I guess I want to be, I want to proceed with a little fear and trepidation. If you're the only person who's ever seen in church history, then, then go slowly and carefully.

Um, but, but the same thing is, is Christ is searching. Christ is searching in a sense for, for fine pearls, right? Sure. He says like, when the son of man returns to earth, will he find, will he find the faithful? Right? There is this element of, of God is seeking his people and when he finds them, he gives everything he has to purchase them.

That's right. Right. And, and so we need to look at these as a source of encouragement to point us to Jesus, who ultimately is the one who's obtained the, obtained the treasure and obtained the pearl for us, and has given us the kingdom of heaven. Who he himself is, in a sense, is the kingdom of heaven. Um, you know, we don't get a kingdom apart from the king who rules over it.

That's right. So to say that we inherit the kingdom of heaven is, is to say that we become co-heirs of the kingdom, which is Christ by Right. He gives that to us by grace.

[00:55:36] Jesse Schwamb: I keep trying not to say it, but it just keeps happening. It's another classic example of God does all the verbs, isn't it? Yeah. It's,

[00:55:42] Tony Arsenal: it is.

[00:55:42] Jesse Schwamb: We could speak for another couple hours then about how beautifully that fits in with the passive and active obedience of Christ, which you just described, and I, I, I'm with you. I think there's something in that parallel that's very. Very similar to let's say, like how he should appropriate or, or kind of approach like Psalm one, like who is this righteous man?

[00:55:59] Tony Arsenal: Yeah,

[00:55:59] Jesse Schwamb: it is Christ. And so the only way that we're getting, the only way that we even can give up enough is because Christ has already given it up in our stead and then welcomes us in so that again, we don't have to empty out our account, so to speak. That even like the indicative and the imperative comes together in Christ so that what he commands, he wills in our lives.

And I know time alludes us. I, I think I would be like remiss if I didn't mention how, to me as well, how. I was totally just struck by how I'll use this word because reform people will know it and you can stand, stand on your chairs and throw your hats into the air. When I say it is that, notice how irresistibly both of these characters are drawn to this treasure.

[00:56:41] Tony Arsenal: Yes.

[00:56:41] Jesse Schwamb: That when God illuminates it for them, it's, it's a foregone conclusion that they will do those things. I think that should be of great encouragement to us, because again, it's not like, well, how do I know if I find the pearl of great price or God opens up my, how do I know that I've done enough? That is a fool's errand.

You will never do enough. What we know though is that they, each of these were drawn irresistibly to do what God required because God had already accomplished it on their, in their stead and on their behalf. Yeah. And so we see sovereign grace, this justification union with Christ, like you said, and true discipleship, the believers joyful surrender of all else.

Is the fruit of a transformed heart. And I believe, like you're saying, Tony, it's not reasonable to expect that a child while truly being transformed, regenerated by God accepting the gospel. That is a real quantity. And as we grow in our lives through this idea of progressive sanctification, we come I think, to increasing levels of surrender and realization, which is all part of what it means to nly grow maturity as a Christian.

And that is also normal too. And as we do that, we should have increasing, I think, measures of joy in our life to lay these things down, to cast the crowns before Christ and say, this always belonged to you, but not, not to begrudgingly, but with great joy seeing that it is always in every way worth it.

Yeah. So I think by God's grace, the elect are gonna recognize Christ as the greatest treasure and willingly forsake all to follow him even. I mean, I'm, I'm a. Poster child for this. Even if we do a kicking and screaming that God works on us, puts us over the anvil at times and works on us in increasing levels of surrender, he's still doing that out of love and that is still a testimony that he's accomplishing the great work that he began, even if that started as you being a child and receiving this great gospel message in Word.

[00:58:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:58:28] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, as you mentioned, time eludes us and, uh, I, I think this is just a great place to stop. Um, we're coming back next week. We're gonna come back talking about the parable of the net, uh, which is, uh, again, is kind of linked to this parable, but is a very sharp turn to a different direction, I think.

Um, so there's, there may be some, some affinities here, but, um, we're gonna come back next week. We are gonna be in the parables for a long time. Brothers and sisters, like this is gonna be a long haul. Um, maybe not as long as our systematic theology series, which was like multiple years long. Um, but it's not gonna be a short one, but it's great because I love it.

I just love it. It's so, it's so much fun to look at these parables. Um, you heard tonight. Even just working through this together. This is one thing that, um, that I hear Matt Whitman say on 10 minute Bible hour lot. He will comment regularly and he'll sort of thank his listeners that him doing the show, him producing the podcast, has forced him to look at the scriptures and to sort of be forced to learn about them.

And I feel the same way about this kind of series. Like I get it working through the parables. It's such a joy and I don't know that I would've done it otherwise. So, um, if, if you are not already reading through these with us, if you're not spending some time taking a look at commentaries, please do consider devoting a little bit of time each week to taking, taking a, a, a look at these parables.

Grab a good study bible or a good commentary. You can get Calvin's commentaries on free or on online for free. You Matthew Henry online for free. Both of those are super good commentaries and just work through these slowly and think through them and think about how they apply to your life. Like I know that going into my week, I'm, I'm set up now to be able to look at.

What it has cost me to be a Christian. And instead of looking at it with this sort of wistful, sideways eyes of like, what could have been, I can look at it and say like, it doesn't matter what could have been because look at what I've got. Look at what I get because of the kingdom of God. Look at who I get.

Uh, I get God, and that's enough. It's more than enough. It could never be, not enough. Um, so brothers and sisters, I, I'm so thankful that we're working through this. I'm so, so, um, humbled that God has brought us to a place where he's given us our, the scriptures. He's called us to study it. And thank you to everybody who supports the show, you know, not just financially, but supports us by encouraging us in the Telegram chat, uh, which we haven't mentioned.

You go to t me slash for brotherhood. If you wanna join a really nice, fun online discussion group. Um, people who encourage us there. I get emails and text message once in a while from people who listen to the show. Um, thank you for coming alongside of us and for, for giving us this opportunity to study the scriptures together with you.

It really is a joy and I, I am so thankful to be able to do it.

[01:01:11] Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned in our little conversation today? Well, it seems clear that the scripture's giving us two really unique examples, differences of the Kingdom of God, and searching it out and finding its surpassing worth. But what's clear is that it's greater than everything anything else in life.

And when God opens a person's eyes through regeneration, they recognize it's supreme value and gladly give up all to gain Christ and His kingdom. I think we've also learned that penguin videos can be dangerous. They have real productivity, uh, consequences, and that itself is something that we ought to value.

So again, enjoy your penguins responsibly, and I would argue maybe, maybe not do it at work. Don't just do your work at work and then when you're on your free time, enjoy those penguins,

[01:01:56] Tony Arsenal: penguin. Penguin, do you enjoy the Benedict Cumberbatch? Can't say Penguin video that you are gonna look up immediately after this.

[01:02:05] Jesse Schwamb: We know you're gonna look it up. 'cause if you haven't seen it, it's, it is actually hilarious.

[01:02:10] Tony Arsenal: It, it definitely is. Yeah. I, yeah. I don't know what else to say about that, Jesse. Except, until next time, honor everyone.

[01:02:19] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.

In this illuminating episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony explore Jesus' parables of the mustard seed and leaven found in Matthew 13. These seemingly simple parables reveal profound truths about God's kingdom—how it begins imperceptibly, grows irresistibly, and transforms completely. The hosts delve into what these parables teach us about God's sovereign work in both our individual spiritual lives and the broader advance of His kingdom in the world. Believers can find hope in understanding that God intentionally works through what appears weak and insignificant to accomplish His purposes. This episode offers practical encouragement for Christians who may feel discouraged by the apparent smallness of their faith or ministry impact.

Key Takeaways

• The kingdom of heaven begins in small, hidden, or seemingly insignificant ways, but grows powerfully through God's sovereign work.
• The mustard seed illustrates the kingdom's visible expansion (extensive growth), while the leaven highlights its internal transformative influence (intensive growth).
• Both parables emphasize that God's kingdom often appears to "disappear" initially but produces outsized results through His work, not our own.
• These parables provide encouragement for times when the church feels weak or our personal faith feels insufficient—God's power is made perfect in weakness.
• God's kingdom transforms both outwardly (extensive growth illustrated by the mustard seed) and inwardly (intensive growth shown by the leaven).
• Cultural transformation happens most effectively through ordinary Christian faithfulness rather than flashy or provocative engagement.
• Christians should not despise small beginnings, recognizing that faithfulness rather than visibility is the true measure of fruitfulness.

Understanding Kingdom Growth: From Imperceptible to Unstoppable

The parables of the mustard seed and leaven powerfully illustrate the paradoxical nature of God's kingdom. In both cases, something tiny and seemingly insignificant produces results far beyond what anyone would expect. As Tony noted in the discussion, what's critical is understanding the full comparison Jesus makes—the kingdom isn't simply like a seed or leaven in isolation, but like the entire process of planting and growth. Both parables involve something that initially "disappears" from sight (the seed buried in soil, the leaven mixed into dough) before producing its effect.

This reflects the upside-down nature of God's kingdom work, where what appears weak becomes the channel of divine power. For first-century Jewish listeners expecting a triumphant, militaristic Messiah, Jesus' description of the kingdom as beginning small would have seemed offensive or disappointing. Yet this is precisely God's pattern—beginning with what appears weak to demonstrate His sovereign power. This same pattern is evident in the incarnation itself, where God's kingdom arrived not through military conquest but through a humble birth and ultimately through the cross.

Finding Hope When Faith Feels Small

One of the most practical applications from these parables is the encouragement they offer when we feel our faith is insufficient or when the church appears weak. As Jesse noted, "God is always working. Even when we don't feel or see that He is, He's always working." The kingdom of God advances not through human strength or visibility but through God's sovereign work.

These parables remind us that spiritual growth often happens imperceptibly—like bread rising or a seed growing. We may go through seasons where our spiritual life feels dry or stagnant, yet God continues His sanctifying work. Just as a baker must be patient while bread rises, we must trust the invisible work of the Holy Spirit in our lives and in the church. When we feel discouraged by apparent lack of progress, these parables assure us that God's kingdom—both in our hearts and in the world—is advancing according to His perfect timing and plan.

As Tony explained, "The fact that it feels and looks and may actually be very small does not rob it of its power...in actuality that smallness is its power." God deliberately works through weakness to display His glory, making these parables powerful reminders for believers in any era who may feel their impact is too small to matter.

Memorable Quotes

"We shouldn't despise small beginnings. Let's not despise whatever it is that you're doing in service to God, to your family, to your churches, especially in the proclamation of the gospel... Faithfulness and not visibility—that's the measure of fruitfulness." — Jesse Schwamb

"The Kingdom of Heaven is at work not only in our midst as a corporate body, but in each of us as well. God's grace and His special providence and His spirit of sanctification, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness and the one who makes us holy. He is doing that whether it feels like it or not, whether we see outward progress or not." — Tony Arsenal

"What cultural transformation looks like is a man who gets married and loves his wife well, serves her and sacrifices for her, and makes a bunch of babies and brings them to church... We transform culture by being honest, having integrity, by working hard... without a lot of fanfare, without seeking a lot of accolades." — Tony Arsenal

Full Transcript

Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 468 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.

Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother, you and I have said it over and over again. One of the incredible truths that the Bible conveys about the kingdom of God is that it's inaugurated in weakness.

It's hidden. It advances irresistibly by the sovereign work of God through the Word and the Spirit. It transforms both individuals and nations until Christ's reign is fully revealed in glory. And so as we're about to talk about parables today, I can't help but think if that's one of the central positions of the Bible, and I think we both say it is how would you communicate that?

And here we find Jesus, the son of God, our great savior, you know where he goes. He goes, mustard seeds and yeast. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. And if you're just joining us maybe for the first time or you're jumping into this little series, which is to say, we do know tiny series, this long series on parables, you, I go back to the last episode, which is kind of a two-parter because Tony and I tried this experiment where we basically each separately recorded our own thoughts and conversation, almost an inner monologue as we digested each of those parables, both the one of the mustard seed and then the leaven sequentially and separately.

And now we're coming together in this episode to kind of talk about it together and to see what we thought of the individual work and to bring it all together in this grand conversation about the kingdom of God that's inaugurated and weakness and hiddenness.

[00:02:31] Affirmations and Denials Explained

Jesse Schwamb: So that's this episode, but it wouldn't be a episode without a little affirming.

And a little denying it seems, 22, we should this, every now and again we pause to say why we do the affirmations and denials. Why, why do we do this? What, what is this whole thing? Why are we bringing it into our little conversation every time?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I mean, it, it, at its core, it's kind of like a recommendation or an anti recommendation segment.

We take something that we like or we don't like and we spend a little bit of time talking about it. Usually it ends up taking a little bit of a theological bent just 'cause that's who we are and that's what we do. And we use the language of affirmations and denials, uh, because that's classic, like reformed confessional language.

Right? If you look at something like the, um. I dunno, like the Chicago statement on Biblical and Errancy, which was primarily written by RC sprawl, um, it usually has a, a statement, uh, of doctrine in the form of things that we affirm and things that we deny. Um, or you look at someone like Turin, a lot of times in his, uh, institutes of elected theology.

He'll have something like, we affirm this with the Lutherans, or we affirm that or de deny that against the papus or something like that. So it's just a, a little bit of a fun gimmick that we've added on top of this to sort of give it a little bit of its own reformed flavor, uh, onto something that's otherwise somewhat, um, Baal or, or I don't know, sort of vanilla.

So we like it. It's a good chance for us to chat, kind of timestamps the episode with where we are in time. And usually, usually, like I said, we end up with something sort of theological out of it. 'cause that's, that's just the nature of us and that's, that's the way it goes. That's, and that's what happens, like when we're talking about stuff we.

Like when we're together at Christmas or at the beach, like things take that theological shift because that's just who, who we are, and that's what we're thinking about.

Jesse Schwamb: By the way, that sounds like a new CBS drama coming this fall. The nature of us.

Tony Arsenal: The nature of us? Yeah. Or like a, like a hallmark channel.

Jesse Schwamb: It does, uh,

Tony Arsenal: it's like a a, I'm picturing like the, the big city girl who moves out to take a job as a journalist in like Yosemite and falls in love with the park ranger and it's called The Nature of Us.

Jesse Schwamb: The nature of us Yes. Coming this fall to CBS 9:00 PM on Thursdays. Yeah. I love it. Well, this is our homage to that great theological tradition of the affirming with, or the denying against.

So what do you got this week? Are you affirming with something or you denying against something?

[00:04:55] No Quarters November

Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming. This is a little cheeky. I'm not gonna throw too much, much, uh, too much explanation. Uh, along with it. I'm affirming something. I'm calling no quarters, November. So, you know, normally I'm very careful to use quarters.

I'm very careful to make sure that I'm, I'm saving them and using them appropriately. And for the month of November, I'm just not gonna use any quarters. So there'll be no 25 cent pieces in my banking inventory for the month. Oh. So I'm, I'm making a little bit of fun. Of course. Obviously no, quarter November is a tradition that Doug Wilson does, where he just is even more of a jerk than he usually is.

Um, and he, he paints it in language that, like, normally I'm very careful and I qualify everything and I have all sorts of nuance. But in November, I'm just gonna be a bull in a China shop, um, as though he's not already just a bull in a China shop 95% of the time. So I'm affirming no corridors. November maybe.

No corners November. Everything should be rounded.

Jesse Schwamb: That's good too.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. No, no. Quatro November. Like we don't do anything in Spanish. No fours in Spanish. I don't know. Okay. I'm just making fun of that. I'm just making fun of the whole thing. It's such a silly, dumb enterprise. There's nothing I can do except to make fun of it.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's fair. That's basically the response it deserves. This time, we, we brought it up for several years going, it's such a strange thing.

[00:06:13] Critique of Doug Wilson's Approach

Jesse Schwamb: It's hard not to see this thing as complete liberty to be sinful and then to acknowledge that. Yeah. As if somehow that gives you, reinforces that liberty that you're taking it, it's so strange.

It's as if like, this is what is necessary and probably we'll get to this actually, but this is what is necessary for like the gospel or the kingdom of God to go forward is that kind of attitude at times.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I will say this, I do always look forward every year to seeing what he sets on fire.

'cause the, the videos are pretty great. I'm not gonna lie. Like the video quality is, is certainly compelling. Um, and you could say it's lit is another little punny way to get at it. Uh, I, I haven't seen it this year. I mean, that's, we're recording this on November 1st, so I'm sure that it's out. Uh, I just haven't seen it yet.

But yeah, I mean, it's kind of, kind of ridiculous, uh, that anyone believes that Doug Wilson is restraining himself or engaging in lots of fine distinctions and nuance. You know, like the rest of the year and November is the time that he really like holds back, uh, or really doesn't hold back. That's, that's just a silly, it's just a silly gimmick.

It's a silly, like, I dunno, it's a gimmick and it's dumb and so I'm gonna make fun of it 'cause that's what it deserves.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's right. You know, I was thinking recently because as you said, the counter just rolled over. And generally this time of year I end up always watching that documentary that Ligonier put together on Martin Luther, which is quite good.

And I think it does, has a fair treatment of him, including the fact that he was so bombastic and that he was very caustic with his language. And I think they treat that fairly by saying, oh, that some of the same things that we admire in somebody can be some of the very same things which pull them into sinful behavior.

And there's no excuse for that. And, and, and if that's true for him, then it's true for all of us, of course. And it's definitely true for Luther. So I think this idea, we need to be guarding our tongues all the time and to just make up some excuse to say, I'm not gonna do that. And in some way implying that there's some kind of hidden.

Piety in that is what I think is just so disturbing. And I think most of us see through that for what exactly it is. It's clickbaits. It's this idea of trying to draw attention by being bombastic and literally setting things on fire. Like the video where he sets the boat on fire is crazy because all I can think of is like, so if you judge me, one more thing on this, Tony, 'cause I, I, when you said that, I thought about this video, the boat video implicitly, and I've thought about this a lot since then.

There's a clip of him, he sets the boat on fire and it's kind of like him sitting on the boat that is engulfed in flames looking out into the sea, so, so calmly as if it's like an embodiment of that mean this is fine, everything is fine, this is fine. Right? Yeah. And all I can think of is that was great for probably like the two seconds that somebody filmed that, but guess what happened immediately after that?

Somebody rescued you by putting out the fire on the boat.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Jesse Schwamb: It's just like insanity to presume that, encapsulating that single moment and somehow conveying that he is a great champion, pioneer advocate of things of the gospel by essentially coming in and disrupting and being caustic and that him setting thing on fire makes everything better is a mockery, because that's not even exactly how that shoot took place.

Yeah. So I, I just really struggle with that, with the perspective he is trying to bring forward.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I'm dubious whether or not there was actually any fire involved. Well, that's, I think 95% of it is probably camera magic, which is fine. Like, I don't know. That's fine. Like, I don't want Doug Wilson to burn up.

That's, that wouldn't be cool either. But, um, yeah, I mean, like the fruit of the spirit is love, joy piece patience, kindness, good as gentleness, setting things on fire and being a jerk in November, apparently. And I, I just don't, I, I've never fully understood the argument. Um, and this is coming from someone who can be sarcastic and can go over the top and go too far.

And, and I recognize that about myself. I've just never understood the argument that like, it's okay to be a jerk sometimes. Or, or not even just, okay. It's necessary to be a jerk sometimes. Exactly. Um, there's a difference between boldness and being a jerk. And, you know, I think, um, the people who, who know me well are gonna like fall off their chairs.

I say this like, Michael Foster is actually someone who I think. Does the boldness with a little bit of an edge. I think he actually does it really well. And just like all of us, I, you know, he, he probably goes over the line, uh, on occasion. Um, and, and, but I think he does the, I'm just going to be direct and straightforward and bold.

And sometimes that might offend you because sometimes the truth is offensive. Um, I think he does that well. I think where we go sideways is when we try to couch everything in sort of this offensive posture, right? Where, where even the things that shouldn't be offensive, uh, somehow need to be made offensive.

It, it's just, it's dumb. It's just, um, and I'm, I'm not saying we should be nice just for the sake of being nice. I think sometimes being nice is. When I say nice, I mean like saccharin sweet, like, like overly uh, I don't know, like sappy sweets. Like we don't have to be that. And uh, there are times where it's not even appropriate to be that.

Um, but that's different than just, you know, it's almost like the same error in the wrong direction, right? To be, just to be a jerk all the time. Sometimes our words and our behavior and our actions have to have a hard edge. And sometimes that's going to offend people because sometimes the truth, especially the gospel truth is offensive.

Um, but when what you're known for is being a jerk and being rude and just being offensive for the sake of being offensive. Um, right. And, and I'll even say this, and this will be the last thing I say. 'cause I didn't, I, I really intend this just to be like a, a jokey joke. No quarters, November. I'm not gonna spend any quarters.

Um, I don't know why I was foolish enough to think we weren't gonna get into it, but, um. When your reputation is that you are a jerk just to be a jerk. Even if that isn't true, it tells you that something is wrong with the way you're doing things. Right. Because I think there are times where, and I'll say this to be charitable, there are times where Doug Wilson says something with a little bit of an edge, and people make way too big of a deal out of it.

Like they, they go over the top and try to condemn it, and they, they make everything like the worst possible offense. And sometimes, sometimes it's, it's just not. Um, and there are even times where Doug says things that are winsome and they're helpful and, um, but, but when your reputation is that you are a jerk just to be a jerk, or that you are inflammatory just to get a reaction, um, there's something wrong with your approach.

And then to top it off, when you claim that for November, like you explicitly claim that identity as though that's not already kind of your shtick the rest of the year. Um, and just, it's just. Frustrating and dumb and you know, this is the guy that like, is like planting a church in DC and is like going on cnn.

It's just really frustrating to see that sort of the worst that the reformed world has to offer in terms of the way we interact with people sometimes is getting the most attention. So, right. Anyway, don't, don't be a pirate. N November is still my way. I celebrate and, uh, yeah, that's, that's that.

Jesse Schwamb: That's well said.

Again, all things we're thinking about because we all have tendency to be that person from time to time. So I think it's important for us to be reminded that the gospel doesn't belong to us. So that means like that sharp edge, that conviction belongs to Christ, not to our personalities. So if it's tilted toward our personalities, even toward our communication style, then it means that we are acting in sin.

And so it's hard for us to see that sometimes. So it does take somebody to say, whoa. Back it down a little bit there and you may need to process. Well, I'm trying to communicate and convey this particular truth. Well, again, the objective that we had before us is always to do so in love and salt and light.

So I agree with you that there is a way to be forthright and direct in a way that still communicates like loving compassion and concern for somebody. And so if really what you're trying to do is the equivalent of some kinda spiritual CPR, we'll know that you, you don't have to be a jerk while you're doing it.

You don't have to cause the kind of destruction that's unnecessary in the process. Even though CPR is a traumatic and you know, can be a painful event by it's necessary nature, we administer it in such a way that makes sure that we are, we have fidelity to the essential process itself, to the essential truths that's worth standing up for.

Yeah, it's not a worth being a jerk.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:37] Practical Application of Parables

Tony Arsenal: Jesse, let's, let's move along. What are you affirming or denying tonight

Jesse Schwamb: and now for something much lighter? So, my, my affirmation I share at the risk of it being like so narrow that maybe nobody will actually want to use this, but I actually had you in mind.

Tony, I've been sitting on this one for a little while 'cause I've been testing it. And so we're, we're just gonna run like an actual quick experiment 'cause I. I'm guessing you will find this affirmation useful and will come along with me and it and might even use it, but you and I are not always like representative of all the people in the world.

I say that definitely tongue in cheek. So we're a little bit nerdy. We love our podcasts and so occasionally, I don't know if this happens to you, I'm guessing it does, but I want to capture like a moment that I heard while podcast is playing on my phone. Maybe somebody says something really interesting, it's great quotes, or it's mathematical nature and I wanna go back and process it.

And so generally what I do is I, I don't know, I stop it. I try to go back and listen to it real quick if I can, or maybe I can't because running, driving, all that stuff. So. When I hear something now that I want to keep, I just cry out to my phone. I have an, I have an iPhone, so I say, Siri, you could do this with Google.

Take a screenshot. What happens is the phone captures an image of my podcast app with a timestamp showing of course what's being played. Then I forward this image, this is the crazy affirmation part. When it's time to be alive, I forward this image to a certain email address and I get back the text transcript of the previous 90 seconds, which I can then either look at or file into my notes.

What is this email address sent it to you. Well, here's the website so you can go check it out for yourself though. Website is actually called Podcast Magic App, and there's just three easy steps there, and this will explain to you how you actually get that image back to you in the format of a transcript.

And the weird thing about this is it's, it's basically free, although if you use it a lot, they ask for like a one-time donation of $20, which you know me, I love. A one time fee. So I've been using this a lot recently, which is why I've been sitting on it, but it is super helpful for those of you who are out there listening to stuff.

They're like, oh, I like that. I need to get that back. And of course, like you'll never get it back. So if you can create this method that I've done where you can train your phone to take a snapshot picture of what's on the screen, then you can send it to Podcast Magic at Sublime app, and they will literally send you a transcript of the previous 90 seconds no matter what it is.

Tony Arsenal: That is pretty sweet. I'll have to check that out. Um, I don't listen to as many podcasts as I used to. How dare you? I just, the I know. It's, it's crazy. Where do we even do it Feels like heresy to say that on a podcast that I'm recording. Yes. Um,

Jesse Schwamb: we've lost half the audience. Yeah.

Tony Arsenal: Well, yeah. Well, the other half will come next.

Um, no, I, I, I just don't have as much time as I used to. I, I live closer to work than I used to and um, I'm down to, we're down to one car now, so, um, your mother is graciously giving me a ride to work. Um, 'cause she, she drives right past our house on the, the way and right past my work on the way to her work.

Um, but yeah, so I guess I say that to say like, the podcast that I do listen to are the ones that I really wanna make sure I'm, I am, uh, processing and consuming and, uh, making sure that I'm kinda like locking into the content.

Jesse Schwamb: Right.

Tony Arsenal: So this might be helpful for that when I do hear something and I do think, like, it's hard because I use matter, which is great, and you can forward a podcast to matter and it generates a whole transcript of the entire episode, which is great.

Um, but I don't often go back and, you know, a lot of times, like I'll go through my matter, uh, queue and it'll be like three weeks after I listened to a podcast episode, I be like, why did I put this in here? Right? I get that. I don't wanna listen to the entire 60 minute episode again to try to remember what that special thing was.

So I just end up archiving it. So this might be a good middle ground to kind of say like, I might set, I might still send it to matter to get the whole transcript, but then I can use this service to just capture where in the transcript actually was I looking for? Um. It's interesting. I'll have to look at it too, because you can, you can send, uh, through Apple Podcast, the Apple Podcast app and through most podcast apps, I think.

Right? You can send the episode with the timestamp attached to it. Yes. So I wonder if you could just send that, that link. Okay. Instead of the screenshot. Um, you know, usually I'm, I'm not. Uh, I don't usually, I'm not driving anymore, so usually when I'm listening to a podcast I have, my hands are on my phone so I could actually send it.

So yeah, I'll have to check that out. That's a good recommendation.

Jesse Schwamb: Again, it's kind of nuanced, but listen, loved ones, you know what you get with us, you're gonna get some, it could be equally affirmation, denial that Doug involves Doug Wilson, and then some random little thing that's gonna help you transcribe podcasts you listen to, because life is so hard that we need to be able to instantly get the last 90 seconds of something we listen to so that we can put it into our note taping at note taking app and put it into our common notebook and keep it.

Yeah, there you go.

Tony Arsenal: There's a lot of apps. There was actually a, a fair number of apps that came out a while ago that were, they were trying to accomplish this. Where you could, as you were listening to the podcast, in that app, you could basically say, highlight that and it would, it would highlight whatever sentence you were on.

But the problem is like by the time you say highlight that you're already onto the next sentence, you now you're going back trying to do it again. And I didn't find any of that worked really seamlessly. It was a lot of extra friction. So this might be kind of a good frictionless or less friction way to do it.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I'm totally with you.

[00:20:08] The Kingdom of Heaven Parables

Jesse Schwamb: I mean, speaking of like things that cause friction, there's no doubt that sometimes in Jesus' teaching on the parables that he himself brings the heat, he brings a little friction in his communication. And since you and I basically did go through each of these parables, we don't have do that again on this conversation.

In fact, what I'm looking forward to is kind of us coming together and coalescing our conversation about these things, the themes that we both felt that we heard and uncovered in the course of talking through them. But I think as well ending with so what? So what is some real good shoe leather style, practical application of these ideas of understanding the kingdom of God to be like this mustard seed and like this lemon.

So why don't I start by just reading. Again, these couple of verses, which we're gonna take right out of Matthew chapter 13. Of course, there are parallel passages in the other gospels as well, and I'd point you to those if you wanna be well-rounded, which you should be. And so we're gonna start in verse 31 of chapter 13.

It's just a handful of verse verses. Here's what Matthew writes. Jesus puts another parable before them saying The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It's the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown, it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.

He told them another parable. The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flower till it was all leavened. Alright? Yeah. So Tony, what do you think?

Tony Arsenal: Uh, I mean, these are so like, straightforward. It was almost, it, it felt almost silly trying to like explain them. Yeah.

One of the things that, that did strike me, that I think is worth commenting too, um, just as a, a general reminder for parables, we have to be careful to remember what the parable is saying, right? So I, I often hear, um. The smallness of the mustard seed emphasized. Mm-hmm. And I think your, your commentary, you did a good job of kind of pointing out that like there's a development in this parable like it, right?

It's a progression and there's an eschatology to it, both in terms of the, the parable itself, but also it comments on the eschatology of the kingdom of heaven. But it's not just that the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed. It's the kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sewed in his field.

Right? It's that whole clause that is the, the kingdom of heaven is like likewise, the kingdom of heaven is not just like leave, it's like leave that a woman took in hidden in three measures of flour till all was leavened. So when we're looking at these parables. Or when we're looking at really any parable, it's important to make sure that we get the second half of the, the comparison, right?

What are we comparing the kingdom of heaven to? You know, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a sower who sowed seeds among, you know, in three types of four types of soil. This kingdom of Heaven is like, this is like that. We don't wanna miss part of the parable because we latch on to just like the first noun, and that follows the word like, um, but I think these are great, these are great little, um, parables that in some ways are almost like, uh, compliments or ex explanations of the other parables that we're looking at too.

They, they explain to us something more about what the Kingdom of Heaven is using similar kinds of analogies that help us flesh out the parables that are surrounding them. So the Kingdom of Heaven. You know, again, we always want to caution against kind of like overinterpreting, the parables, but the, the parable of the sower is talking about the seed that is sewn into the field, right?

And then there's the parable of the wheat and the tears, and there's seed again. And we, we might have a tendency to sort of miss the nature of the kingdom in a certain sort of dynamic. This fleshes this out. So we might think of like the parable of the sowers, like we don't know what, what proportion is of good soil, you know, good soil versus bad.

We know that there's three types of soils that are bad soils or unproductive soils and one type, but we don't know like how much of the soil is, um, like what percentage of the field is that. Similarly, like we don't know what percentage of the field was wheat and what was weeds. This is kind of reminding us that the, the kingdom of heaven is not found primarily in the, um, the expansiveness of it.

Right. It's not, it's not initially going to look like much. It's going to initially start out very small. Right. And in some ways, like in both of these, it appears to disappear entirely. Right? You sow a grain of mustard seed. I don't, I've never seen a mustard seed, so, but it's very small. Obviously you sow that into the ground.

You're not gonna find it again, you're not gonna come back a week later and dig up that seed and figure out where you sewed it. Um, similarly, like you put a, you put a very small amount of yeast or lemon into a three measures of flour. You're not gonna be able to go in even probably, even with a microscope.

You know, I suppose if you had infinite amount of time, you could pick a every single grain of flour, but you're not gonna be able to like go find that lemon. It's not gonna be obvious to the eye anymore, or even obvious to the careful searcher anymore. So that's what the kingdom of heaven is like in both of these.

It's this very small, unassuming thing that is hidden away. Uh, it is not outwardly visible. It is not outwardly magnificent. It is not outwardly even effective. It disappears for all intents and purposes. And then it does this amazing thing. And that's where I really think these, these two parables kind of find their unity is this small, unassuming thing.

That seems ineffectual actually is like abundantly effectual in ways that we don't even think about and can't even comprehend.

Jesse Schwamb: Right? Yeah. I would say almost it's as if it's like, well, it's certainly intentionally, but almost like offensively imperceptible. And I think that's the friction that Jesus brings with him to the original audience when he explains it this way.

So again, from the top, when we said this idea that the kingdom of God is imperceptible, it's hidden, it grows, it conquers, it brings eschatological resolution. And I'm just thinking again, in the minds of the hearers, what they would've been processing. I think you're spot on. I liked your treatment of that by focusing us to the fact that there is verb and noun and they go together.

We often get stuck on the nouns, but this, that verb content means that all of this, of course, is by the superintendent will of God. It's volitional. His choice is to do it this way. It is again, where the curse becomes the blessing, where it's the theology of the cross or theology of glory, where it is what is small and imp, perceptible and normal by extraordinary means becomes that which conquers all things.

And so I can. Picture, at least in my mind, because I'm a person and would, would wanna understand something of the kingdom of God. And if I were in a place, a place of oppression physically and spiritually living in darkness, to have this one who claims to be Messiah come and talk about the inauguration of this kingdom.

My mind, of course, would immediately go to, well, God's kingdom must be greater than any other kingdom I could see on this earth. And I see it on the earth that the sun rises. And cast light across provinces and countries and territories in a grand way. And then we have this kingdom of God, which, you know, theory, the, the sun should never set on it and the sun should never be able to shine, but on a corner of it.

And it doesn't have provinces or countries, it doesn't even have continence, but it has, it encapsulates worlds. And it doesn't stretch from like shore to shore or sea to shining sea, but from sun to sun or star to star from the heavens to the earth, its extent couldn't be surveyed. Its inhabitants couldn't be numbered.

Its beginning, could never be calculated because from Tard past, it had no bounds. And so I'm just thinking of all these things and then like you said, Jesus says, let me tell you what it's really like. It's like somebody throwing a tiny seed into a garden. Or it's like a woman just making bread and she puts yeast into it.

These seem like not just opposites, but almost offensive, I think, in the way that they portray this kingdom that's supposed to be of great power and sovereign growth, but it comes in perceptibly and how perfect, because the one who's delivering this message is the one who comes imperceptibly, the person of Christ preaching the gospel and the hearts of believers.

But that grows into a vast and global proportion, and that of course, that aligns exactly with so many things you and I have talked about in process before. These doctrines are providence and sovereign grace, that God ordains the means that is the seed and ensures the outcome, which is the tree.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

Yeah. And I think too, um, you know, I don't, I don't know of any affinity with mustard seed in like the Old Testament law, but there's, there's a sort of a reversal of expectation here too, because although Levin is not always associated with like impurity, um, I think most Jewish listeners would immediately have a negative connotation with Levin for sure.

Right? So when, when all of a sudden he's comparing the Kingdom of Heaven to leaven it, it becomes sort of this, um, the reason Levin is so pernicious and the reason that in the Old Testament law, you know, they're, they're, they're not just not making their bread with leave for the, for the Passover. They have to like sweep out their whole house.

They have to empty all their stores out. They have to clear everything out. And that's not just because like. In, in, in Old Testament, sort of like metaphors, leaven does get associated with sin, right? Uh, and that gets carried on into the New Testament, but just the actual physical properties of leaven is like, if there's any little bit of it left on the shelf or even in the air, like even on your hands, it's can spoil the whole batch.

It can cause the entire batch to go a different direction than you want it to. And in a certain way, like the Kingdom of Heaven is like that, right? Um.

[00:30:21] The Resilience of God's Kingdom

Tony Arsenal: You hear about, um, you hear about situations where it seems like the presence of God's people and the, the kingdom of God is just, it's just eradicated.

And then you find out that there's actually like a small group of believers who somehow survived and then like Christianity is thriving again like 50 years later. Um, you can't just wipe out the kingdom of heaven because it is like leaven and any small remaining remnant of it is going to work its way back through the entire batch in a way that is, uh, mysterious and is somewhat unpredictable and is certainly going to surprise people who are not expecting it to be there.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.

[00:31:04] Understanding Theological Concepts

Jesse Schwamb: One of the things I really picked up in your treatment of that, that kind of drew me in in a special way was, you know, we think of some theological terms. We have really, I think, strong. Rubric for processing them, and especially like their multifaceted nature. So for instance, when we think about sanctification, we often talk about positional and progressive.

And those are really helpful ways to understand a concept that brings us into modeling where it's finite and precise to a degree that allows us to understand it and comprehend it with a greater degree of confidence. And knowing it's many parts, because it is many parted.

[00:31:36] The Parable of the Leaven

Jesse Schwamb: And I was thinking as you were talking about the leaven, how the kingdom of heaven here that is inaugurated by Christ, that comes by the power of the Holy Spirit is growth and always deny that.

But what you drew out for me was I think we're definitely seeing in that this idea of the intensive growth and then of course in the. Parable of the mustard seed. It's more extensive growth and they're both important. So they're in consummate harmony. It's not just like one recapitulating the other. And what that made me think about was even as you were speaking now, this really interesting difference, you know, the woman is taking this, again, talking about the verb, there's two nouns here actually.

There's like the, the proper pronoun of the woman there is the act which she's doing, which she's taking the leaven and working it as it were like into the flower. I just did like a weird motion here on the camera if you're watching on uh, YouTube. Sorry about that.

[00:32:28] Practical Lessons from Bread Making

Jesse Schwamb: Almost like I was giving CPR, but she's working it into this meal or this flower and the working it from within outwards and that working itself like changes the whole substance from the center to the surface of this meal.

Now I was thinking about this 'cause you noted something about bed bread. Bread baking in yours. And I did actually just a couple weeks ago, make some bread and the recipe I was using came with this like huge warning. Some of the recipes are like this, where when you're using some kinda lemon, most of the time we're using yeast.

You have to not only be careful, of course, about how much yeast you put in because you put in too much, it's gonna blow the whole thing up. You're gonna have serious problems. You're not gonna make the bread anymore, you're gonna make a bomb, so to speak, and it's gonna be horrible. You're not gonna want to eat it.

But the second thing is the order in which you add the ingredients, or in this recipe in particular, had very explicit instructions for when you're creating the dry ingredients. When you have the flour, make a little well with your finger and delicately place. All of the yeast in there so that when you bring the dough together, when you start to shape it, you do it in a particular way that from the inside out changes the whole thing so that there's a thorough mixing.

Because the beauty of this intensive change is that. As you know Tony, like there's so many things right now in my kitchen that are fermenting and I talked about before, fermenting the process of leavening something is a process of complete change. It's taking something that was before and making it something very different.

But of course it retains some of the essential characteristics, but at the same time is a completely different thing. And so it's through a corresponding change that man goes to whom the spirit of God communicates His grace. It's hidden in the heart and chain begin, change begins there. You know, the outward reformation is not preparing a way for inward regeneration.

It's the other way around that regeneration, that reformation on the outside springs from a regeneration that's on the inside, growing out of it as a tree grows from a seed as a stream flows from the spring or as leave, comes and takes over the entire lump of dough.

[00:34:26] The Power of Small Beginnings

Jesse Schwamb: It's amazing. This is how God works it.

We again, on the one side we see the kingdom of heaven. That is like the manifestations of his rule in rain coming, like that seed being sown and growing into this mighty tree. It brings shade. The birds come nest in it. And that may be a reference Allah to like Ezekiel or Daniel, the Gentiles themselves.

There's that inclusion. And then to be paired with this lovely sense that, you know what else, anywhere else, the power of the kingdom of heaven is made. Manifest is in every heart in life of the believer. And so the Christian has way more in religion in their outer expression than they do anybody else.

Because the inner person, the identity has been changed. Now you and I, you and I harp all the time on this idea that we, we don't need some kind of, you know, restoration. We need regeneration. We don't need to be reformed merely on the outside by way of behaviors or clever life hacks. We need desperately to be changed from the inside out because otherwise we.

Where it's just, I don't know, draping a dead cold statue with clothing, or all we're doing is trying to create for ourselves a pew in the house of God. What we really need is to be like this bread that is fully loving, that grows and rises into this delicious offering before the world and before God.

Because if you were to cut into this outwardly looking freshly baked bread and find that as soon as you got through that delicious, hard, crispy crust on the outside, that in the inside all it was, was filled with like unprocessed, raw flour, you would of course say, that's not bread. I don't know what that is.

But that's not bred. What a great blessing that the promise that God gives to us is that the kingdom of God is not like that. It lies in the heart by the power of God. And if it's not there, it's not anywhere. And that though the Christian May at times exhibit, as we've talked about before, some kinda hypocrisy, they are not essentially hypocrites.

Why? Because the Kingdom of God is leavening us by the power of the Holy Spirit. That gospel message is constantly per permeating that yeast through all of who we are, so that it continues to change us. So that while the natural man still remains, we are in fact a new creation in Christ. So to start with, you know, bread and or not bread to end with bread, but to start with flour and water and yeast and salts, and to be transformed and changed is the intensive power of the growth of the gospel, which is with us all our lives, until we have that beautific vision.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, to kind of take a, a pivot maybe to the practical, I think this is, this is not the point of the parable necessarily 'cause the parable. I think there's a lot that these parables have to say to us about like, personal, individual growth, but they really are about the growth of the kingdom or the, the, maybe necessarily the growth of the kingdom.

I think that's there too. But really like the nature of the kingdom as this sort of like, hidden, hidden thing that then grows and creates big results.

[00:37:34] Encouragement in Times of Darkness

Tony Arsenal: I, I think this is a, this is a parable that should encourage us. Like absolutely for sure we should look to this and, and be encouraged because. It is not the case.

Um, I know there are lots of people who wanna act as though like this is the worst time anyone has ever lived in, and everything is the worst as it's ever been. It's, this is not even close to the worst time that the church has ever existed in, um, there are, it's funny, um, we'll give a little plug. Some of our listeners have started their own new show called Over Theologizing, and, um, it, it was, it was funny listening to the second episode they had, um.

Pete Smith was on there and they were saying, like, they were talking about like, how do you feel about the nature of the church? And Pete was like, it's fine. Like it's great out here. Like there's lots of churches, lots good. Like I, I think that there are pockets in our, in our world, um, particularly, you know, my, my former reference is Western World and in the United States and in some senses in, in Europe, um, there are certainly pockets of places where it's very dark and very difficult to be a Christian, but by and large it's not all that challenging.

Like, we're not being actively persecuted. They're not feeding us to the lions. They're not stealing our businesses. They're not, um, murdering us. You know, like I said, there are exceptions. And even in the United States, there are places where things are moving that direction. But there are also times when the church is going to feel dark and small and, and like it's failing and, and like it's, it's weak.

And we can look at these parables and say, the fact that it feels and looks and may actually be very small does not rob it of its power that does not rob the kingdom of heaven of its power. It in, in actuality that smallness is its power, right? Leave is so powerful of an ingredient in bread because you need so little of it, right?

Because that it, you can use such a small quantity of lemon to create such a, a huge result in bread. That's the very nature of it. And it, its efficacy is in that smallness. And you know, I think the mustard seed is probably similar in that you, you don't need to have, um. Huge reaping of, of mustard seed in order to produce the, the crop that is necessary, the trees that are necessary to, to grow that.

So when we look around us and we see the kingdom of heaven feeling and maybe actually even being very small in our midst, we should still be encouraged because it doesn't take a lot of leave to make the bread rise, so to speak. And it doesn't take a lot. And, and again, like of course it's not our power that's doing it, that's where maybe sort of like the second takeaway, the baker doesn't make the bread rise by his own like force of will, right?

He does it by putting in this, this agent, you know, this ingredient that works in a sort of miraculous, mysterious way. It's obviously not actually miraculous. It's a very natural process. But I think for most of history. So that was a process that probably was not well understood, right? We, we, people didn't fully understand why Bread did what it did when you used lemon.

They just knew that it did. And I think that's a good takeaway for us as well, is we can't always predict how the kingdom of heaven is gonna develop or is gonna operate in our midst. Um, sometimes it's gonna work in ways that seem to make a lot of sense, otherwise it's gonna seem like it's not doing anything.

Um, and then all of a sudden it does. And that's, that's kind of where we're at.

Jesse Schwamb: I like that. That's what a great reminder. Again, we all often come under this theme that God is always working. Even when we don't feel or see that he is, he's always working and even we've just come again on the calendar at least to celebrate something of the Reformation and its anniversary.

Uh. What again, proof positive that God's kingdom will not fail. That even in the places where I thought the gospel was lost or was darkens, even in Israel's past in history, God always brings it forward. It cannot, it will not die.

[00:41:26] Faithfulness Over Visibility

Jesse Schwamb: So I wanna tack onto that by way of, I think some practical encouragement for ministry or for all believers.

And that is, let's not despise small beginnings. Like let's not despise whatever it is that you're doing in service to God, to your family, to your churches, especially in the proclamation of the gospel. This is from um, Zacharia chapter four, beginning of verse eight. Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, the hands of the rebel have laid the foundation of this house.

His hands shall also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you. For whoever has despised the day of small things shall rejoice and shall see the plumb line in the hand of Zabel. So I love this encouragement that is for all Christians. That's one. Again, God is doing all the verbs like just.

For one last time for everybody in the back. God does all the verbs. Yeah, and in so doing, because he is doing all the verbs, he may, but he chooses to start with small things because again, he is always showing and exemplifying his glory and he does this in these normative ways. It's a beautiful expression of how majestic and powerful he is.

So let's embrace those things with be encouraged by them. The gospel may appear weak or slow in bearing fruit, yet God guarantees its eventual triumph. God guarantees that he's already stamped it. It's faithfulness and not visibility. That's the measure of fruitfulness. So if you're feeling encouraged in whatever it is that you're doing in ministry, the formal or otherwise, I would say to you.

Look to that faithfulness, continue to get up and do it, continue to labor at it, continue to seek strength through the Holy Spirit, and know that the measure of his fruitfulness will come, but maybe in a future time, but it will come because this is what God does. It's God doing all the work. He's the one, he's essentially the characters needs of these parables, sowing the seed, working in lemon.

Yeah.

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I think, you know, like I said, the, the parables are not necessarily about individual personal growth. Um, but I, I think the principle that is here applies to that as well is I think oftentimes we feel like, um. I'll speak for myself. There are have been many times in my walk as a Christian, um, where it just feels like nothing's happening.

Right? Right. Like, you just feel like it's dry and like you, you're, you know, you're, you're not like you're falling into some great sin or like you've walking away from the faith, but it just feels sort of dry and stale and like God isn't doing anything. And, um, I've only ever tried to bake bread once and it was a, it was just a terrible, terrible failure.

But, um, I think one of the things that I've. I've read about people who bake bread is that there is a level of patience that has to come with it, right? Because oftentimes it seems like the bread isn't rising. It seems like the, the lemon is not doing what it's supposed to do until it does. Right? And like, if you take the bread out of the oven every couple of minutes to check and see if it's rising, it's never going to rise.

It's never going to do what it's supposed to do. And, um, you know, I think that is kind of like the Christian life in microcosm too, is we, we have these spiritual disciplines that we do. We pray, we read the scriptures, we attend faithfully to the Lord's Day service. And oftentimes it doesn't feel like that's doing anything right.

But it is. The Kingdom of Heaven is at work in not only in our midst as a corporate body, but the kingdom of heaven is at work in each of us as well. That's right. God's, God's grace and his, uh, special providence and his spirit of, of sanctification, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness and the one who makes us holy.

Um, he is doing that whether it feels like it or not, whether we see, um, outward progress or not. If the spirit dwells within us, he is necessarily making us holy and necessarily sanctifying us. Um, and and so I want us to all think about that as we, we kind of wrap up a little bit here, is we shouldn't be.

I, I don't wanna say we shouldn't be discouraged, um, because it's easy to get discouraged and I don't want people to feel like I'm like, you should never be discouraged. Like sometimes the world is discouraging and it's frustrating, and it's okay to feel that, but we should be able to be encouraged by this parable.

When we look at it and we remember like, this is just. This is just the parable form of Paul saying like, God glories by using the weak to demonstrate his strength. Exactly right. He, he is, his power is shown in, in using the weak and frail things of this life and this world to accomplish his purposes. And so when we are weak, when we are feeling as though we are failing as Christians, we should be able to look at this and say, well, this is what the kingdom of heaven is like.

It's like a tiny mustard seed, a tiny mustard seed of faith that grows into a large tree. It's, it's like this little little spark of leave that God puts in us and it's hidden in us and it leavens the whole loaf. And that's us, right? And that's the church, that's the kingdom. It's the world. Um, God is at work and he is doing it in ways that we would not ordinarily see.

Even the person who has this sort of like explosive Christian growth. That's not usually sustained. I think most people when they first come to faith, especially if they come to faith, you know, as a teenager or a young adult, um, they come to faith and they have this like explosive period of growth where they're like really passionate about it and on fire.

And then that, that passion just kind of like Peters out and you kind of get into like the, the day in, day out of Christianity, um, which is not, it's not flashy. It's not sexy, it's not super exciting. It's very boring in a lot of ways, like right, it's, it's basic bread, it's basic water. It's hearing a, a person speak and it's, it's reading words on a page.

But when the Holy Spirit uses those things, he uses them faithfully to finish the work that he started.

Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. The spirit's work of leavening, it continues quietly, but it powerfully, yeah. And we shouldn't despise that quietness or that smallness that I think is altogether a gift of God.

And again, we're talking about the one who embodies the perfect will of God, who came and condescended to his creation was like us in every eight, where every way without sin. This is the one who became, I think as Paul writes in Galatians, a curse for us. And so again, this blessedness arises out of, again, what I think is this offensive means.

And if that is the model that Christ gives to us, we ourselves shouldn't despise that kinda small beginning or even despise the sacrifices we're often called to make. Or those again, I would say like offensively and auspicious kinds of beginnings. All of that is peace wise, what it means to be a follower of Jesus.

And there's a beauty in that. And I would say, I want to add to what you said, Tony, 'cause I think it was right on, is this idea that's easy to be discouraged is. It doesn't require any explanation. I, I, I'm totally with you. If you were to pick up any, or go to any kind of website and just look at the headlines for their news reporting, you're going to find plenty of reasons to be discouraged and to feel melancholy.

And yet at the same time when I think we, you and I talk about these things, what I'm prone to consider is what Paul writes elsewhere to the church in Corinth, where he says in two Corinthians chapter 10, we destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ.

Being ready to punish every disobedience when you're disobey, when you're obedience is complete. And so what I think that applies to us in this particular case is understanding that this is the promise of God. Like you're saying, you and I are saying. Discouragement happens. And yet the truth is that small inauspicious beginnings in the kingdom of heaven always result in outsized gains that God never ceases to work.

That he's always with us, that he's always for us. Then we do have to take captive those thoughts that lead us into kind of a disproportionate melancholy that pull us away or distract us from this truth of God, the knowledge of God, which is that he is super intending, his sovereign will completely over every molecule in the universe because this is what the Kingdom of Heaven does.

And so that gives us, I think as I said last week, hope and evangelism we're storming those gates of hell we're coming for you like because there is a triumphalism in Christ that will be manifested in the final day. It's the reformed understanding of the here but not quite yet.

[00:49:57] Cultural Engagement as Christians

Jesse Schwamb: And like the last place that Le that leads me to like some practical, I think application is, and I wanna be careful with this, so I'm curious for your opinion.

It's cultural engagement. You know, if we're thinking about this, leave permeating this dough, this tiny seed growing to overtake the garden, then I think believers should labor to continue to bring biblical truth into every sphere. So your family, your vocation, arts, politics, everything under Christ's lordship.

I think sometimes that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be. As we've talked about the top of the show, really outspoken in a provocative kind of way. I think sometimes, again, that same quiet though, consistent work that the Holy Spirit does that's powerful in leavening us is the same thing that we can do with just our attitudes at work or our attitudes in our family, or our willingness to serve or our kind words.

Of course, it does require us to preach the gospel using words. It also means that the power of the leaven is that quiet power. It doesn't jump outta the bread. It doesn't boast, but it is present. So maybe I'm saying Christians, let's be present, and leavening means to be present with the attitude and the mind of Christ.

What? What do you think?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think that's, um, I think that's right on, you know, um, it, it's not quite a parable, but Christ, Christ commands his people to be like salt and light and true. Um, and, and by saying that the kingdom of heaven is like leaven, you know, like a, a measure of leaven that was hidden away in three measures.

Um, he's also commanding us to be like leaven, right? And he is commanding us to be like the, the mustard seed because that is what we are. And I think, um, we shouldn't think that we can cloister off or sequester off the kingdom of heaven from the rest of culture and create like, um, I'm not quite, uh, I'm not quite to the point where I'm, I'm a transformational in the sort of like Tim Keller sense, but I do think that.

We, and I don't like this word, but I'm not sure of a better, a better way to say it, but like, we like to set up these little Christian ghettos where like we, we isolate ourselves culturally into these little subcultures and these little sort of cordoned off areas of culture. Um, where we, we actually then strive to look just like the culture that's around us, right?

Right. We subsection off Christian music and although it's, you know, typically it's like a decade behind the curve in terms of what music is good, we're really just doing the same music as the rest of the world. We just baptize it with Christian language. Like, I remember my, my youth pastor in high school rewrote the song closing time to Be Quiet Time.

And like that was like, that was like the most Christian thing he could do at the time, was rewrite the lyrics to a song. But like, that's, that's absolutely not what cultural transformation looks like. Right. Well, cultural transformation, and maybe I'm channeling a little bit of, of Michael Foster here, what cultural transformation looks like.

Is is a man who gets married and loves his wife, well, serves her and sacrifices for her, and makes a bunch of babies and brings them to church, right? Like that's, that's cultural transformation. And in our culture, like that is a very counter-cultural way to do things. It's actually very counter-cultural.

There have been times when that's not particularly countercultural and there probably will be times again where it is. And actually it seems like our broader American culture is moving away from the sort of like two kids, two kids and a dog is a, is a bygone era fantasy. And now it's like two single people living in a house together with a dog.

Um, you know, and, and that's not to say that that's the only way to be, to transform culture, right? That's just one example of sort of the most mundane, natural thing is actually the way that we do it. Um. We transform culture by, um, by being honest, having integrity, yes. By, um, working hard, right? Yes. Going to work, doing your job well, uh, without a lot of fanfare, without seeking a lot of accolades, um, and just doing a good job because that's what God commands us to do when he tells us to honor our employers and to be good, faithful bond servants in the Lord.

Um, that is also very, uh, that also will transform culture. Um, you know, I think we think of cultural transformation and we, I think we immediately go to, for better or worse, we go to like the Doug Wilsons of the world and we go like, that guy's engaging the culture. Well, yeah, I guess in a certain sense he is.

Um, or we, or we go to. The Tim Keller's of the world where they are, they're engaging culture in a different way. But I think for most of us, for most Christians, our cultural engagement is very nor like very normal and very boring. It's living a very ordinary, quiet life. Um, you know, what does Paul say?

Work quiet life. Mind your own business. Work with your hands, right? Like, don't be a busy body. Um, like that's, that's actually the way that culture is transformed. And that makes perfect sense. We will have to come back and do another episode on this sometimes, but like, that makes perfect sense. When you think about how God created Adam and what he was supposed to do to transform and cult, cultivate, right?

The word cultivate and culture come from the same roots to transform and cultivate the entire world. What was he supposed to do? Plant a garden, tame the animals, right? You know, bake babies. Like, it's, it's not, um, it's not. Rocket science, it's not that difficult. And again, we are all called to different elements of that.

And God providentially places us in situations and in, in life, you know, life circumstances, we're not all gonna be able to fulfill every element of that. But that's where this, that's where this becomes sort of the domain of the church, right? The church does all of these things in the culture, and I don't mean the church as institution.

I mean like the people who are the church. They do all of these things in very ordinary, normal ways, and that will, that will transform the culture. Um, right. You, you show me a. And this is not, you know, by God's common grace, there are lots of really nice people out there who are more or less honest and have integrity and work hard at their jobs.

So it's not as that, that's a uniquely Christian thing. But you show me a, a, a person who is known to be a Christian and works hard as honest is straightforward, is kind, is charitable, is self-sacrificial in, in all arenas of their life. Um, people will notice that and they will see it as different and they will associate it with Christianity.

They will associate it with Jesus Christ. And that is really powerful.

Jesse Schwamb: Agreed. Yeah. I think there's something in that for us to really take away with and, and try to apply.

[00:56:58] Final Reflections and Encouragement

Jesse Schwamb: And I want to this week, you know, do you remember back to the days of COVID and its most T stages, and we had all of this technology, all these conversations about contact tracing.

Yeah. And I was just thinking about that. What if we tried that just as a thought experiment with considering ourselves as the leaven in the world that God has put us in. So if you were to go through your day and think about all the people we've interacted with, all the experiences you've had, the text messages, the emails, the conversations, the interactions on the road and at the supermarkets and at daycare, if you consider all those things, and then instead in each of those ways in whatever the interaction is, am I bringing forward the God's kingdom in my interactions?

I think what you'd find is that we have this tremendous opportunity to use what is normative. And by the way, this is what God does, right? Like the yeast is. Is empowered by God, but it's simple in, its like first principles that make it react, but God is doing the reaction in the same way, like you've said, Tony, God has called us to, is to live small lives in many ways.

So I think wrapping it all the way back to the beginning, how many people, even in our, let's say, our own sphere of influence, I'm talking like at your place of work, in your office, in your home, or at your churches, and again at the grocery store, how many of those people care what Doug Wilson is saying?

Care what he's doing. Yeah. Even know who he is. Yeah. They know you or they're getting to interact with you. And so they're interacting with me and with Tony. And it's our responsibility as God empowers us to be that true salt and light. And if we did a little contact tracing, I, my guess would be, we'd be surprised if we were treating it like we were concerned that we were communicating some kind of sickness and we really made particular effort to go back through and trace all of our contacts that we would find that we interact and do a lot and that is our opportunity.

Yeah. And that is the small and quiet working of the Holy Spirit in those things. What if we were praying that God would use those opportunities to, one, be a model, that kind of Christian behavior that you're talking about, Tony, the kind of fruit of the spirit and to beyond that, to use that by God's divine appointing to have opportunity to speak directly and forthrightly and lovingly the gospel message.

Like what if that's how we were praying? So yeah. Will you join me in praying that way this week? 'cause I, I'm, I'm gonna be praying that for myself and for my wife, for my church, these. Little parables have really pushed me, I feel in that direction that there's so much here for us, because we should get pumped up by this.

We shouldn't be discouraged by this. And instead we should see like, well, if this is how God handles his kingdom, like what else can he do in the world? And the answer is all the things, everything. And he will do it. He will bring it to completion. So what's funny is, strangely, mustard seed and yeast, and I haven't said this in a while, so I'm gonna say it now, have got me in this place where I wanna run through a wall.

I wouldn't have expected that that's where it started. But doesn't it make sense that that's where it ends?

Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jesse, that's a good way for us to wrap this up. Um, next time we'll be getting into some more parables, a little hidden treasure, a little bit of pearls of great value. We'll see how, how many episodes it takes us to get through those two parables.

Um, but Jesse, this is such a fun, um, and I think really a really transformative series for us. Like, I think, I think. What you just said is spot on. Like, I would not have expected these two really micro parables, right? It's like five verses. I would not have expected these to have this much driving force for like Christian living.

Um, you know, all of scripture is God breathe. All of it is profitable for, for teaching correction, reproof training, and righteousness. But it feels like this one would not have been in my top 10. But now that we've talked about it, it's like, yeah, like let's get out there. Yeah. Let's be leaven, let's be mustard seeds.

So I think that's great if you wanna get after it together with other like-minded brothers and sisters who are, are on this same, um, sort of journey with us. I'll just use all the postmodern language. They're taking the same pathway with us. They're, they're on the same journey. Um, you can go to t.me/reform brotherhood that'll take you in your browser or on your phone, or it'll take you to a little app called Telegram and it'll jump you straight into our little slice of the internet that we have.

Uh, it's a great little group. Um, there's maybe a couple hundred people in there. There's not a ton. Um, you know, maybe like 30 really active people and a bunch of people who are lurkers and that's just fine. Um, but there's a place for prayer requests, which are faithfully prayed for. Um, people will a, will absolutely pray for you.

Um, it's one of the few places that I've been online where when you ask for prayer, you, not only do you trust that people are doing it, but they actually like type out their prayers for sure to show you what they're praying, which is great. Um, there's lots of great channels for memes and there's a baptism discussion.

It's specifically called charitable baptism discussion, and it actually is like, it really does. Uh, we really do try hard to maintain a level of charity and to decorum and love for our each other. Um, so please do join us t.me/reform. Brother, we would love to hear your thoughts on this parable. We'd love to hear, especially like what.

What kinds of things are you doing this week differently because of what we talked about today, right? Like how has this actually made a difference in how you're walking out your Christian faith?

Jesse Schwamb: Right? I love it. So what have we learned about these two parables and maybe in this conversation in particular?

Well, one, we've learned it's really best not to set your boat on fire. Just don't do it. If you have a boat, I feel like you're blessed enough, possibly, although I, I don't know how a boat, would they say the best two days of a boat or the day you buy it and the day you sell it, not the day you set it on fire.

That's not a good day. We've also learned that these parables of the mustard seed in lemon, they teach us that the kingdom of heaven, God's kingdom, it begins in small, hidden, or seemingly insignificant ways, but it always grows powerfully and inevitably through sovereign work. And the mustard seed illustrates that the kingdom's visible expansion is present.

It's here, not yet. While the 11 highlights this internal transformative influence, and there's something there for all of us to take away and apply. It's not just head knowledge. Loved one. We gotta get that meditation. Yeah, we gotta bring it inside. We gotta process it by the holy power of the Holy Spirit, and as the Puritans would say, warm ourselves by the fire of meditation.

So now it's up to you to do that as Tony and I will endeavor to do it this week until we come and talk to you or talk at you next week. But while you're doing that, here's what I would say. Honor everyone.

Tony Arsenal: Love that brotherhood.

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal explores Jesus' parable of the leaven from Matthew 13:33, revealing profound insights about the nature of God's kingdom on earth. This short but powerful parable illustrates how the kingdom of heaven operates not through outward glory or conquest, but as a hidden, transformative influence throughout the world. Tony examines how this parable connects thematically with other parables in Matthew 13, showing that believers are called to be like leaven - seemingly small and hidden, yet profoundly impacting the entire "loaf" of society. This teaching offers a refreshing perspective on how Christians can understand their role in the world and how God's redemptive purposes work through His people.

Key Takeaways

• The kingdom of heaven operates not through outward glory but as a hidden, transformative influence in the world
• Just as leaven permeates an entire batch of dough, Christians are called to influence the whole world around them
• The parable of leaven shares thematic connections with the parables of the sower and the wheat and tares in Matthew 13
• God preserves the world (the "whole loaf") because of His redemptive purposes for those within it
• The seemingly small presence of believers in the world has a disproportionate impact, similar to how a small amount of leaven affects a large amount of flour
• Common grace benefits both believers and unbelievers as part of God's redemptive plan
• The church may not always appear dominant in society, but its influence continues to work invisibly and powerfully

Understanding the Parable of Leaven

The parable in Matthew 13:33 is deceptively simple: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour till it was all leavened." Tony notes that just as leaven is often the same color as flour but with a different texture, and just as a small amount can affect an entire batch, the kingdom of heaven may seem small and unassuming in the world, yet its influence permeates everything around it. This parable teaches us that God's kingdom doesn't operate through visible conquest or outward glory. Rather, it works quietly from within, transforming the whole of society as believers live out their faith in various contexts - whether at work, with family, or in other relationships. The impact of the kingdom, like leaven, is not always immediately visible but ultimately transforms everything it touches.

The Kingdom's Hidden Presence

This parable helps us understand that while the church may not always be the dominant visible institution in the world, its influence continues to work powerfully. Tony explains how this connects with the parable of the wheat and tares, where both grow together until the harvest. Similarly, the kingdom of heaven is present within the world, often hidden from plain sight but still exerting tremendous influence. This perspective counters triumphalistic views that expect Christianity to always visibly dominate culture, while also rejecting defeatist attitudes that minimize the church's impact. Instead, it offers a balanced understanding that even when believers are in the minority, they serve as God's means of leavening the whole of society with kingdom values and influence.

Memorable Quotes

"We should look at this parable and think about how the kingdom of heaven on this earth is not going to be about outward glory. It's not gonna be about outward conquests, accoutrements or accolades."

"As we go into our workday, as we interact with our family, whether that's our immediate family, our wives or children, our parents, or it's our extended family, some of whom may not even know Christ, as we interact with our fellow Christians in the church or online, as we interact with unbelievers online, we are to be like leaven that is hidden in the flower and our presence in the flower, our presence in the world actually leavens the whole world."

"If it were not for God's intent and desire to save a remnant from fallen humanity, if it was not for the covenant of redemption in which the father, son and the spirit pacted together to redeem a people for their very own, God would've had no reason not to just destroy the whole thing and start over. But because he has seen fit to redeem out of the fallen whole, a portion, he is leavening the whole with that portion."

Full Transcript

we should look at this parable and think about how the kingdom of heaven on this earth is not going to be about outward glory. It's not gonna be about outward conquests accoutrements or accolades.

[00:00:21] Introduction and Experiment Setup

Welcome back to episode 467 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Tony and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brothers and sisters, if you are joining us for this second part of, uh, episode 467, any of you have not listened to Jesse's contribution, then you are like me. I also have not listened to Jesse's contribution yet, but, uh, you should go back and listen because, uh, we're doing a fun little experiment this week, Jesse and I.

Our schedules didn't quite line up, so we thought we would do something interesting.

[00:01:03] Exploring the Parables of Christ

Uh, we've been working through the parables of Christ, which has been an absolute joy, and we come to these two sort of little micro parables that, um, commentators and editors often clump together. And Justin and I thought it would be a fun experiment for us each two separately talk about, uh, one of the parables.

Uh, and then next week, uh, we're gonna come back together and we will probably talk through all of it after we've had some chances to, uh, process and marinate in it a little bit. We thought it'd be fun to see kind of how the two episodes gel together or don't gel together, uh, when uh, we have not talked about it and did not record together.

So I'm gonna go ahead and kick off. I don't know if Jesse did affirmations or denials. I don't know what Jesse did. I, all I know is he recorded an episode and I'm sure that it's amazing. Uh, but I'm just gonna go ahead and kick off right into the, uh, the. Uh, reading here. So we're looking at Matthew chapter 13.

Uh, we've spent our entire time in this series so far in Matthew chapter 13, and I'm gonna pick it up at verse 33. It reads here, he told them another parable. The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, that a woman took and hid in three measures of flower till it was all leavened. Now this is a short parable.

Uh, it's, it's pretty straightforward. And this episode will be a little bit shorter. I don't know how long Jesse went. I mean, I, I guess I kind of have an idea 'cause I edited the, uh, episode, but I dunno how long you went. So I'm gonna keep this short and sweet and we're gonna talk more about all of this next week.

So I just wanna share a few observations with you first. I think it's important for us to sort of recognize that. Matthew as the inspired, uh, writer of this, uh, gospel and in some ways, uh, as an inspired compiler and editor of Christ's public Ministry. Right. He's writing the gospel, but he's also a witness to the events.

He is probably, um, ordering things in particular ways to make a theological point. Christ probably also taught this same message multiple times in multiple venues, so there's nothing shady or a historical going on. Um, but Matthew is. Putting together these, uh, counts and particularly these parables, which probably were all given at the same time.

Um, Christ probably deliver them all at the same time as well. And there's some good reasons in the text to think that. But these parables all fall within the context of each other. So when we talked about the parable of, uh, the soils, um, or the parable of the sower, we, we recognize, um, that the kingdom of heaven is not as obvious as we would think, right?

The sower sows the seed, um, he sows it promiscuously a across various different kinds of soils, fully knowing that some of it will not be receptive. And then of course, we saw the outcome. And then when we looked at the parable of the weed, weed, uh, wheat and the tears, uh, we see that, you know, the, the good sower recognizes that the wheat and the weed will grow up next to each other, and that at the end of all things, he will separate those things and will, you know, destroy the wicked and will reward the righteous.

And an interesting feature of this chapter is that Christ often tells a parable, and then there's either some commentary, or in this case today, there's actually additional parables in sort of inserted, and then Christ gives the, uh, interpretation of the parable. So the, the parable of the mustard seed immediately follows in the parable of the 11, kind of considering those together.

Immediately follows the parable of, uh, the explanation, or no, sorry, the parable of, um, the weed and the weeds. And so he gives us this parable right in the middle there. Then he gives us a little explanation and a second, you know, explanation of why he speaks in parables. And then he goes on to interpret and.

There's a, a technique that was often used in ancient text, in ancient documents called an iuso, where they would start an account. Uh, they would start sort of a literary segment with, um, a phrase or a concept. Then they would explain, you know, they would give all their explanation and then they would close that same section with a similar theme or a similar, um, kind of, um, concept.

We see this in Luke, right? We see at the beginning of Luke. There's a statement that Jesus grew in wisdom and stature. Then we see the, um, the account of Jesus in the temple. And then we see again at the end of that, it says again, he grew in wisdom and stature. And so Luke, there is telling us that we should read that whole section, that whole area as a, a single unit.

And the theme of that unit is Jesus growing in, um, wisdom and stature. A similar thing is happening here. So we have the, the parable of the sower. We have some commentary, then we have the interpretation of the parable of sower. Then we have the parable of the wheat and the tears, and then we have this in the middle, the parable of the weed of the, um, mustard seed and the lemon.

And then we have the explanation or the interpretation of the parable of the wheat and the tears. So we should see this parable as part of that literary unit. That's, that's what Matthew is doing here. So we have to interpret it in light of that.

[00:06:17] The Kingdom of Heaven and Its Implications

And so what do we see in the first, uh, parable that we talked about?

Well, we see that the kingdom of heaven is, uh, is sort of hidden within the world. We see that God sows or the, the good sower sows his seed. The master of the household sows his good seed into the world. The field is the world and it starts to grow, and then the enemy comes and he sows his seed into the world, and that starts to grow.

And until the end of things, um, the good weeds, the good wheat is sort of hidden among the weeds just as the weed is hidden among the good wheat, the, the parable of the mustard seed, um, Jesse, I'm sure explain. We'll find out. Um, explain that the, the mustard seed is small. And so when it's planted into the garden, it becomes kind of hidden and it's an unexpected, um, influence on the, the rest of the garden.

Not only does it grow, but it becomes, uh, it becomes a central feature of the garden. Uh, it gives shade to things. It, you know, birds come and live in it. Um. It becomes a central feature in an unexpected way. And the Parable of 11 is, in my opinion, is really just a restatement in some ways of the parable of, uh, the wheat and the tears.

It says the kingdom of heaven is like 11 that the woman took and hid. In three measures of flour till it was all lemon. So Jesse could tell you more about baking bread than I could. Uh, he, he probably would've been better to give you this parable and, and if we did any sort of planning at all, we would've thought about that, but.

Lemon is often, um, the same color as flour. Um, it's a different texture as flour, but it takes just a very small amount of it in a large portion of flour or bread dough or whatever you're putting into to then permeate and affect the whole thing. So you might have, you might have a pound of flour. Um, or in this case, three measures of flour, which I, I don't know off the top of my head how much that is.

Um, my logos Bible software is, is not helping me all that much here. But you may have a, a large quantity of flour, say a pound of flour, you might put just a few, um, a few grams into that flour, and once you've mixed it all up. Even though that lemon, uh, that lemon is, is at a much lower ratio than the flour, it still affects the entire, the entire outcome and the entire loaf of that, uh, bread that you're making.

So, in one sense, what Christ is saying is that the kingdom of heaven, uh, it's it's small. It's, it's unassuming. It is hidden in this broader bunch, just like the wheat is in the good field. Um, it's hidden in the good field in that when you first, you first sow it, you don't see it. And as it starts to grow alongside the weeds, it's hidden among the weeds just as the weeds are hidden among the weeds because you can't tell the difference.

In this case, the lemon is, is hidden among the measures of flower, and that's what the kingdom of heaven is like. And so we should look at this parable and think about how the kingdom of heaven on this earth is not going to be about outward glory. It's not gonna be about outward conquests or outward, um, accoutrements or accolades.

Um, it certainly should be visible, right? Christ also says that, uh, the kingdom of heaven is like a city on a hill, and we'll get to that when we get to that, or we'll talk about that at some point. But it's not as though this parable is saying The kingdom of heaven should be invisible. But it's not, um, it's not going to be the dominant outward force in the world, just as the wheat in the first parable we talk, or in the second parable we talked about is not gonna be outwardly, uh, visible and apparent.

Um, but it's still present in the world and it's still. Part of the reason that the master retains the field instead of just burning it over. If, um, if we saw that an entire loaf was ruined, we'd throw it away. But because the leaven is present in the loaf or it's present in the three measures, it, it permeates that.

And the second thing that I think that we should think about, uh, and this will be where I close here, is the kingdom of heaven is, um, is not an, an inert force in the world. Even though it's not going to be outwardly dominant, dominant, it's not going to be the primary, uh, visible institution in the world.

Um, it, it certainly has been at points if, if you equate the. The visible church with the Kingdom of Heaven, which our tradition certainly does to a certain extent, but regardless of how present or hidden it, it visually appears and how apparent it is, it still is leavening the whole loaf. So when we read passages like God so loved the world, we don't have to do exegetical gymnastics to try to say, well, God so loved part of the world, or the world only means the elect.

We can say without, you know, crossing our fingers or talking outta both sides of our mouth, that God loved the world, the whole world, but part of the reason he loved the whole world is because. One, he created it. But his love for the world in that passage and his sending of the sun is a particular love for the whole world.

On the account of all of those who would believe so the, the, the parable here, just like the parable of the weeds. Or maybe as an extension of the parable of the wheat and the tears is teaching us that Christians, particularly the sons of the Kingdom, to use the language from the, the parable of the wheat, the sons of the Kingdom of God are hidden among the world.

And just as we are commanded to be salt and light earlier in the gospel, here we are to leaven the whole world. So as we go into our workday, honestly, I'm sitting in my office at work recording this episode right now 'cause it's the most quiet place I can get. Um. As we go into our workday, as we interact with our family, whether that's our immediate family, our wives or children, our parents, or it's our extended family, some of whom may not even know Christ as we interact with our, our fellow Christians in the church or on online.

As we interact with unbelievers online, we are to be like leaven that is hidden in the flower and our presence in the flower. Our presence in the world actually leavens the whole world if it were not for God's intent and desire to save a remnant from fallen humanity. It was not for the covenant of redemption in which the father, son and the spirit, uh, pacted together to redeem a people for their very own.

If it were not for that, God would've had no reason, would have no reason not to just destroy the whole thing and start over. But because he has seen fit to redeem. Out of the fallen hole, a portion he is leavening the hole with that portion. So I'm obviously not arguing for some kind of universal salvation, but the the common grace that the fact that the rain falls on the just and the unjust or the fact that we all have air to breathe and there's food to eat and that.

Uh, evil is restrained, uh, to a certain extent and, and that, um, the good things in life are preserved and that even, even the unbelievers can experience good and pleasurable things like marriage and good food and drink and, and other, um, common grace pleasures that God has provided. All of that is on account of, and because of his desire to redeem the whole, to have a kingdom of God on Earth.

So I'm gonna leave you there and it'll be an interesting, fun experiment once these, uh, two dueling episodes come out to, to compare notes and to see how close Jesse and I. Are in interpreting these and where we overlap and where we may even disagree. And we will come back next week and see, uh, where we go when we start to discuss the two together.

So thank you for bearing with us with this sort of interesting, unorthodox experiment. I hope that you've enjoyed this, and until next time, honor everyone. Love that brotherhood.

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb explores Jesus' parable of the mustard seed from Matthew 13. The seemingly insignificant mustard seed grows into a mighty tree, providing a profound metaphor for God's kingdom—beginning in humble, ordinary ways yet expanding to glorious fulfillment. Jesse unpacks how this parable challenges our expectations of power and glory, revealing that God intentionally works through what appears small and insignificant to manifest His mighty power. This episode offers a meditation on God's kingdom, which operates contrary to human expectations, growing unstoppably between Christ's first and second comings despite opposition, and ultimately providing shelter for all nations.

Key Takeaways

• The kingdom of God begins with something small and seemingly insignificant (a mustard seed) yet grows to become greater than all garden plants
• Jesus deliberately uses ordinary, humble elements to describe God's kingdom, contrasting with human expectations of power and glory
• The theology of the cross consistently looks to normal, ordinary means rather than what people perceive as great and powerful
• There is significant growth of God's kingdom between Christ's first advent and His eventual return
• God's kingdom cannot be stopped by opposition; attempts to destroy it actually facilitate its growth
• Biblical meditation on Jesus' parables is essential for deeper understanding and application
• The parable connects to Old Testament imagery (particularly in Daniel and Ezekiel) where trees represent kingdoms

The Theology of Ordinary Means

The parable of the mustard seed demonstrates what Jesse refers to as "the theology of the cross" versus "the theology of glory." God consistently chooses to work through what appears weak, small, and insignificant rather than through impressive displays of worldly power. As Jesse explains, "The theology of Cross is always looking to these normal, ordinary insignificant things. It's God's stacking the deck against himself to show his great power that he works not... in the circumstance of what people perceive to be great and powerful, but the exact opposite." This approach reveals God's sovereignty—He needs no human advantage, political power, or military might to accomplish His purposes. The kingdom that began with Jesus' seemingly humble first advent will culminate in His glorious return, showing that God's power is made perfect in weakness.

The Unstoppable Growth of God's Kingdom

One of the most encouraging aspects of this parable is how it portrays the inevitability of the kingdom's growth. Just as a mustard seed inevitably grows into a tree according to its nature, God's kingdom advances despite opposition. Jesse notes how throughout history, attempts to destroy Christianity have always failed: "History is replete with those... who have tried in their own way to silence God, to destroy the scriptures or to somehow eradicate Christianity. And of course, history will be filled up with all of their failures." Even the martyrdom of Stephen in the early church, which seemed like a defeat, actually caused the gospel to spread beyond Jerusalem as believers were scattered. This illustrates Jesus' promise that "the gates of hell will not prevail against his church" (Matthew 16:18). The kingdom continues to grow by God's power until its final consummation when Christ returns.

Memorable Quotes

"The humble inauguration was not a mistake. This is planned by God and it is for his great purpose. It shows His great power, his love for his people, and the ordinary way in which he brings about all of these things." - Jesse Schwamb

"This unassuming seed, which God plants, continues to grow by his power, his volition, his sustenance, until it takes over all things." - Jesse Schwamb

"The one who took on flesh and was born in a humble state will return in splendor and judgment to consummate this kingdom." - Jesse Schwamb

Full Transcript

the theology of Cross is always looking to these. Normal, ordinary insignificant things. It's, God's stacking the deck against himself to show his great power that he works not with great po, not in the circumstance of what people perceive us to be. Great and powerful, but the exact opposite.

Welcome to episode 467 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brothers and sisters. Well, we're back at it again.

[00:00:48] Exploring the Kingdom of God Through Parables

On this episode, we're talking about seeds and leave. In what other ways would Jesus describe the kingdom of God? And we're gonna get to all of that, but in a slightly different format.

Something special for everybody on this episode. It may have noticed that. Right at the top. Tony is missing, but fear not. He's still here. We're doing something different on this episode and that is we're gonna speak about the kingdom of God as Jesus describes it in parable form with the mustard seed and the leave.

And so what we decided to do is I'm gonna give a quick little primer, my thoughts, my observations. On the mustard soup parable, and then Tony will be right behind me to talk about the leaven. And then in the next episode, we're coming together and we're gonna see how all of our different explanations kind of come, came together and coalesced around single themes.

So this is a fun little game where you're gonna hear from. You're gonna hear from Tony, and we're gonna see how all of this comes together in the end, because neither of us is having the conversation in real time, but I'm sure that we're gonna have a lot of the similar things to say and it'll be a fun little game of seeing how all of this comes together.

So if you wanna play along. And you definitely should come hang out with us in Matthew chapter 13.

[00:02:04] The Mustard Seed Parable

So we've gone through a couple parables already and the beauty of looking at these parables, of course, one of the many beauties, I guess I should say, is that we're getting some direct teaching from Jesus, which is always great, and we're getting it directly about the Kingdom of God.

The God perspective on salvation. Clear, concise, in parable form. And so we found ourselves looking at fields, looking at planting, looking at weeds, looking at tears, looking at wheats. And now after all of that, we're coming back. To in some ways, at least for me, a familiar form. And that is we're back to seeds again.

And this time it's a particular type of seed. It's the mustard seed, and Tony's gonna handle something new, a total change in direction, a totally different comparison. He's gonna get into lemon and bread making and all that kinda good stuff. But in either case, what we're finding is Jesus is specifically coming to us once again.

With these finely tuned stories to help explain to us the kingdom of God. And of course, like this is clear because in all of Jesus' teaching, the kingdom of God holds this like high and lifted up this prominent position. It gets hegemony in all the other topics. And as he goes about his earthly ministry, wherever gospel you look, you're gonna find that he's proclaiming his coming to earth and that this coming meant that the kingdom of God was at hand.

Now, I can only imagine, and you ought to as well, that if you were in that time, if you were listening to Jesus. What an incredible thing that would be that you're trying to understand and really discern what the he means about this kingdom of God. And perhaps like you, I would have my own perceptions of what that was, and if he's inaugurating it, I'm waiting for that thing to happen.

And a kingdom is a powerful representation of ownership. Power in hierarchy in a place that's clearly manifested. And so as Jesus is in the midst of all these hears, these disciples that are gathering around the throngs of people that are trying to understand what he has to say. If he's coming and saying, I am here to inaugurate the kingdom of God, then my first question would be.

Where is it? Tell us what it's gonna look like. Show me what you mean when you say that the kingdom of God is here, that you're ushering it in. And so how strange and unusual then for Jesus to say something like the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, or the kingdom of God is like lemon in bread. So it seems altogether fitting that Jesus would want to and would have to explain what exactly he means.

It's a little bit though mysterious that he uses these elements. To bring about that kind of explanation. I find that endlessly fascinating.

[00:04:32] Meditation on Jesus' Teachings

Speaking of which, I think one of the reasons why Tony and I are discovering that we're loving these parables so much is that it forces us to do something that sometimes is Modern Christians we're honestly just not that good at it, not skilled and often not practiced because our lives are filled with many things.

And we prefer not to do this, and that is to actually meditate on what he's saying, to actually like turn it over in our minds to think about it. Like personally, practically, seriously, and earnestly to understand how the truth of God's words should look in life. And it just dawned on me this week that really the parable forces us into that rubric, whether we want to or not, because the whole purpose is to take what he's saying and to dwell on it to such degree that we receive something of the promises that are therein.

By chewing on them. And it's just too easy to read the scriptures, of course, and to take with you as you pass by those words, something of a little bit of the knowledge that's contained within something about the phraseology or about the facts of it. But really what God's after here is this idea that we would spend time meditating on the words of Jesus, so that we might truly understand what he means by the kingdom of God.

And then we might take that kingdom into our own realm, as it were, into our own sphere of influence to manifest it. And to worship him through it and to be obedient in it. Be not because of works on the righteousness, of course, but because we already have been saved by a great savior for this kingdom.

And now we know something about what it's actually like by way of these beautiful metaphors. And of course, like the metaphors, even if they're straightforward. As we're about to find in this one, still force us into them to really say, well, what? What does it mean? We're gonna talk about seeds and mustard plants, and where else we find trees in the scriptures.

Without meditation, we lose so much of this without meditation. Truths are maybe devoured, but they're never digested. I like what the great Puritan Watson wrote. He said, it's better to meditate on one sermon than to hear. Five sermons. Many complain that they do not profit from sermons. This may be the chief reason, because they do not chew the cud.

They do not meditate on what they have heard. And I think one of the great goals that Tony have in this series is that even as we're thinking about this before we have conversation with each other and present it all to you, that we really wanna spend time truly meditating on it, thinking practically, deeply for a long period of time.

On what is being said here, what Jesus means by it, that it is for us, that it is a gift that he gives to us. And so I really totally resonate with what Watson is saying here, that when a Christian enters into meditation through the scriptures, that they receive healing, they receive power from God, that receive insights and wisdom, that receive his comforts, that receive his direction for life, and that all of that is, or most of that.

Rather is lost if we move too quickly by it. We tend to gather a lot of knowledge, but maybe not a lot of the wisdom that's contained in there. So even if this sounds simple, this little parable that's before us, it's just a couple of verses. Loved ones that there is so much in it for us to understand and to chew on.

I don't think we can expect to get all the understanding in one go and that's okay. We keep coming back to it. Certainly. I'm not gonna cover it all here. This is definitely not going to be, though. You might expect it, the definitive episode. On the parable of the mustard seed in the lemon. It can't be really, and that's because there's just so much for us to understand here and to receive from God.

So that is the longest intro ever. So let me cut it there and let's just go right to the scripture, which of course is the best part of this podcast. Always. So this is Matthew chapter 13, beginning in verse 31, just a couple of verses. Jesus put another parable before them saying The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed than a man took and sowed in his field.

It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown, it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree. So that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches. Lovely. Right. It's wild because it's such quick language there. It's so brief and already I wanted to go further, but I would be into Tony's verses, which he's gonna hit with us in just a second for.

But it's really compact statement of just a couple of things. One, can we just agree that I love the way that this particular little passage begins? It just starts by saying, Jesus put another parable before them. What beautiful language that he's really throwing before his disciples placing for them to evaluate again, to meditate on these beautiful words of his that express what the kingdom of heaven is like.

It's of course, well within God's purview. To not have given us any kind of direct revelation here, or direct expression or even metaphorical or comparative expression of his kingdom. How kind that he does this. And then I think there is something for us to study in this, again, to chew the cut, as Watson would say, on what it means for us to think about heaven as this grain of mustard seed and that a man took it.

And he sewed it in his field. It's very small, yet it grew larger than all of the other garden plants that would probably be in that field. It became a tree, and then as a result of that, the birds of the air come and make its nest in its branches. So you can see that there's all this interesting, logical pro progression throughout this passage.

And we're talking about really just two verses, really, just that many sentences. It's really exceptional thing, you know.

[00:09:52] The Growth of God's Kingdom

I find it interesting that this illustration progresses this idea of the kingdom of God between its inauguration and consummation. There's something built in there, and like I said, I think it's realistic to assume that so many who are hearing these words we're really, truly trying to understand.

Where was this kingdom, Jesus, that you're bringing in as the Son of David, show us this kingdom and its power and my own expectation. I still don't mean to put this on. Those who would've been there would've been that this kingdom would've come in power. I was waiting for it to be manifested with this sense that it would be very clear that Jesus was in.

That all things, all realities both here and now in spiritual principalities will be clearly under his foot. We were looking for, we want to see the serpent crusher, the head crusher the better. David, the one that comes inlays Goliath Finally. Where is that pump and where is that power? And interestingly, Jesus says, no, actually, it's more like a mustard seed.

And of course, I mean, you don't need to know much about seeds, but if you haven't looked up a mustard seed at this point, you definitely should because it's very tiny. That's obviously implied from the text, but it is very tiny, like crazy tiny, like almost so tiny that when I look at a mustard seed, whether you're like, you're looking at your.

From your like spice rack or you go and Google one, it almost seems inconceivable that any size plant could come forth from that very, very tiny seed. It's so mundane and insignificant that the idea that Jesus would say, this is what this glorious kingdom of God is like, is almost mind boggling. Like even now it's mind boggling.

And if it's not, it's because you have not looked at a mustard seed. Go check that bad boy out. It's so small. And so of course like Mustard would've been a common agricultural product that grew quite prolifically in that particular area. You know, the variety of mustard seed growth in PA in Palestine is probably similar, I imagine to like maybe most of like the northern hemisphere.

There's various. Kind of varieties, of course of mustard seed. What I've learned since trying to chew on this text, and they grow in very all kinds of varieties, but this idea that this small seed can become something that you put in your garden, that grows to such a great extent that it dwarfs all of the other things.

And of course it starts. In the most, I don't wanna say humble, that's like, that's almost too much. The most insignificant way is incredible. So the fact that, again, we have, I think in this something that Tony and I have come back to quite often, and that is the difference between the theology of glory and the theology of the cross.

That the theology of Cross is always looking to these. Normal, ordinary means these insignificant things. It's, as we've said before, God's stacking the deck constantly against himself to show his great power that he works not with great po, not in the circumstance of what people perceive us to be. Great and powerful, but the exact opposite.

And I think not just as the Bible communicates, not just to display his mighty power, but also to shore forth his great glory that he needs no other thing. And because he needs no other thing, he doesn't need things to go right for him. He doesn't need the right political leaders to be involved. He does not need armies.

He does not need kingdoms. He inaugurates his own. And his own is so great and so powerful that it became, it can begin in the most insignificant way because the power is not itself in the planting of that thing, but in the thing that makes it grow. And so here we have this clean and clear delineation when it comes to trees that God, again, is doing the planting and this tree is gonna grow to such a great extent that dwarfs all the others besides it.

And that not just that, it becomes a resting place. It becomes a living place, a place that provides shelter. And so. It's, that is a common theme that we find, like throughout all of the scriptures. In fact, I, I often think like God has a thing for, for a couple of different items. One is tense. God loves tense, loves sojourning jam.

Then the third would be trees. I mean, look throughout the scripture and see where God is either using trees directly or using, this becomes like a grand metaphor explanation for so many of other great spiritual and theological principles. That's whether we go back all the way to the beginning in the guided and we see the tree of good evil, tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Tree of Life rather. In addition to that, then we have all these other references, especially in the Old Testament, but I mean, whether it's Abraham and he's souring and he's, we're getting way points by way of trees, for instance, or whether we are in the New Testament and we're talking about fig trees.

There are all these references to trees. They're embedded and impounded in the lifeblood of God's work and the story that he's telling, the grand narrative of salvation of his people.

[00:14:35] Historical and Biblical Context

And nowhere is this, I'd say more true than in places in the Old Testament, especially when we're speaking about like the book of Daniel Daniel, chapter four.

So for instance, if you go back there, you're gonna find that this description here in some ways. Has it. I think parallel is probably not strong enough a word. There's like this direct connection between what God talks about and through the power of the Holy Spirit in the book of Daniel and what he Jesus' son is saying here.

And in that book we see the descriptions harkening back to King Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon. He had a dream about a tree that had grown so large that the birds of the air rested in it. However, that tree was chopped down an instant. And Daniel's interpretation revealed that all the kingdoms a man will collapse, even this mighty nebuchadnezzar's kingdom.

But God's kingdom that Jesus draws a parallel here to here is different. Although the inauguration of his kingdom was unimpressive, it's going to grow until it reaches final glorious form, until the birds of the heavens common nest and its branches, which by the way, is basically exactly out of Ezekiel 36, 31, chapter six.

All the birds of the heavens made their nest in its bows under its branches. All the beasts of the field gave birth to the young and under its shadow, lived all the great nations. So lest is hearers miss this message here. You know, Jesus is saying very clearly, listen, there is growth of God's kingdom.

Between his first and second advents and in them, Jesus showing the manner in which he's ushering in this kingdom of God and need not sow any doubts concerning the power and legitimacy of his Messianic office and of this kingdom that he's bringing in. The humble inauguration was not a mistake. You know, this is planned by God and it is for his great purpose.

It shows. His great power, his love for his people, and the ordinary way in which he brings about all of these things. And we can see this in fact, some. One of the great blessings is that we sit in this place where we can interrogate, examine, have these parables read us, and we see that since Jesus uttered these parables, the mustard seed has in fact taken root and blossomed, you know?

Those who oppose Jesus and his followers after his ascension tried to squelch this infant church to chop down this tree. I love, you've heard me say before, loved ones. I love this description of job that we get from the scriptures, that even in our, let's say, the most miserable times, even when it seems like all hope has been cut off from us.

Even if it seems though it's never the case, even if it seems that we've been forgotten or forsaken, the scripture tells us of job. There's hope for job, like a cut down tree. There again, we have a tree and this, this idea that even though it was removed, it, new life springs forth from it again. New unassuming life, the kind of life that can only come from the creator, the one who restores all things, redeems, all things, loves his children, and for whom.

We find the exact truth manifested in from Romans 8 28, that for those who love God and are called according to his purpose, all things, all things, all things work for good. And so this infant church, while in its time it was trying to be. There was so many attempts to crush it, to destroy it, that it went far beyond Jerusalem.

All the attempts to do this were exactly futile. In fact, the more that God's enemies came both in the present day and in the previous day, the more they come where their AEs and try to chop at this tree, the more the tree grows. You know, a really wild example of this in the first century is the martyrdom of of Stephen, which I think is illustrative to this end because it precipitated a dispersion that carried the gospel beyond Jerusalem, into Judea, into Samaria, and to the ends of the earth, literally.

That's Acts eight. You know, the history of the church is truly the fulfillment of Jesus' promise right here in this text that not even the gates of hell would prevail against his church. That's from Matthew 1618, and I know I've said before, but man, does it bear repeating. That gates don't attack anybody.

Gates don't go out to battle. It's so for the Christian here, for what Jesus is saying, it's not that we have to worry that the gates of hell are coming after us, but that the normative position of the church is to grow in such a powerful and unassuming and mysterious way that even these gates, which will try to defend against the light, will not overcome it.

And so because of that, we find that. It now houses the birds of heaven, that it feeds the nations that is lifeblood and it provides fruit for all who are there? The kingdom that Jesus inaugurated awaits his return for its full and final consummation. And so in the interim, we walk by faith and not by sight.

We're citizens of that kingdom and we know it cannot be shaken. We know it's growing. You know, this is one of the things that I find incredible. I think you could have chosen. Any number of course of metaphors to explain what God's kingdom is like, and sometimes we choose our own and that's fun. We're trying to explain it in a particular way or maybe to express some kind of nuance of that kingdom.

But my bet is that we would not use the words that Jesus has given us here if it were left to us to try to explain it without any kind of great insight. And again, the reason why is because this is too humble. It's too unassuming. It doesn't seem like it contains within enough power, but that's because we have in this, again, this super intending will of God that he's so great, so majestic, that his thoughts are so incredibly deep that even what we have to do here is let our consciousness and reason bow down to who God is and to what he says his kingdom is like, because he always.

Brings it forth in every generation. He always brings it forth and it cannot be stopped. And of course, history is replete with those both individual leaders and cultures, movements and political heroes who have tried in their own way to silence God, to destroy the scriptures or to somehow eradicate Christianity.

And of course, history will be filled up with all of their failures because this unassuming seed, which God plants. Continues to grow by his power, his volition, his sustenance, until it takes over all things. And in that final consummation, it absolutely will loved ones. And so we find, I think so much encouragement in that when Christ returns to consummate the kingdom of God, no one will be able to deny its glory then.

And while many of us now where we look for that glory, we obtain that glory by faith and not by sight. And in the same way here that Jesus challenges us to say, look, this is how it works. And wow, do I wanna speak so much about the 11, but I've gotta save that for Tony. You know, the one who took on flesh and was born in a humble state will return in splendor and judgment to consummate this kingdom.

And so in some ways this is a warning. That what started as this humble means of Jesus in the first advent coming speaking peace to his people that will will ultimately be bookended with this kind of final judgment that reflects his full unvarnished glory. And then finally. Finally the dwelling place of God will be with man.

And in that way, the birds of heaven will nest in this tree, in this lovely coming together of a new heaven and a new earth of God with his people and us finally having that beautific vision of Jesus. So there's so much here. I think that's. We can spend a little bit of time chewing on, even if we just mull over in our mind, what does it mean again?

That this kingdom of heaven is like, like a grain of a mustard seed, that it gets sewn. That's the small must of seeds, but that when it's grown, it's larger than all the garden plants, and then it becomes a tree. And because it is a tree and is this great and glorious tree, all the birds of the air come and make its nests and its branches.

What are the birds? What are the, what are the nests? What are these branches? And of course, I think. There's so much there for all of us to really consider as we continue to ponder what it means for us to really follow the Lord Jesus Christ closely. So that is your little quick. Conversation about the mustard seed and the leaven.

[00:23:00] Conclusion and Community Engagement

Now, before I turn everybody over to Tony, I wanna remind you that you all probably have thoughts on this, and as you meditate on it, you'll certainly have thoughts on it. And the best place to come and hang out and share some of those thoughts is by joining our Telegram Chat Telegram. It's just a messaging app and we have a little.

A little closed off corner of that world for you to come and hang out and meet and interact with other lovely brothers and sisters who are hanging out, listening to the podcast and hopefully doing a little meditating of their own. So the way that you find that, it's super easy. If you don't know by now, then you gotta know.

You just go to T or t, me slash reform Brotherhood t me slash reform brotherhood, and that will take you a link to there. So loved ones. Go think about this Kingdom of heaven. It's like the grain of a mustard seed, but you know what else? It's also like the in bread. And for that, I'm gonna turn you over to.