Refractive

Refractive digs into 5 game-changing teachings from the 12 Steps of Recovery: (1)Design Your God, (2)Shame Lives in Darkness, (3)Life on Life’s Terms, (4)Keep Your Side of the Street Clean, and (5)Compare Means Despair. Guest Phil Reese of the Whole Phil Podcast and host Johnny G discuss how these essential, life-changing truths unlock the power of healing and growth for everyone- not just those in recovery.

Find Phil Reese online at PhillipJReese.com, on Twitter @ReallyPhilReese or on Facebook at PhilReeseTheDJ, and find him here on Twitch where he DJs a 45 min set each Tues and Thurs at 7:10pm Eastern

For similar content, check out these episodes: Making Peace with Your Dark Side, The Ancient Truths of Acceptance & PLINKO, and From Addiction to Self-Acceptance.

If you’d like to book Johnny G for speaking, facilitation, or for personal coaching, visit www.refractivecoaching.com or email him at jo****@****************ng.com.

Good afternoon, everybody. And welcome to another episode of refractive podcast. Today. I have a good friend of mine joining us to talk about a topic that’s near and dear to both of our hearts. I am pleased to introduce you to Phil Reese. He’s the host of the whole field podcast. He is also a DJ and a web developer based out of Washington, DC. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 00:01:10 I’m wonderful. How are you? Good.
Speaker 1 00:01:13 So happy that you’re on refractive. It just, it, uh, it’s going to be some really nice quality content today.
Speaker 2 00:01:21 Awesome. I’m excited too.
Speaker 1 00:01:24 Yes. And when you and I were planning the episode, we decided to talk about something that’s near and dear to both of our hearts. Uh, it is the process of being in recovery and the wisdom that people in recovery are given by, uh, the literature and the traditions. Um, and by working the 12 steps and so many times, because my listeners know I’m in recovery and now they know you’re in recovery. So many, uh, so many times I’ve said to other people in recovery, boy, I just wish everyone had access to some of the tools and wisdom that we have access to because it’s truly life changing.
Speaker 2 00:02:14 Absolutely. I completely agree. Um, you know, uh, for, for most of my life, I kind of felt like everybody else in the world had like this owner’s manual for life and I, I didn’t get one. And, uh, and I kind of got that owner’s manual for life once I, uh, started doing 12 step recovery. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:02:37 Absolutely. So what, what do you say? We’ll just jump right in. Let’s do it. So you and I kind of brainstorm a list of some of the nuggets of wisdom that have been most useful to us. And, um, on the top of the list, it’s about surrendering and people who are listeners of a refractive podcast and also people who’ve enjoyed the aspects of your podcast. I’m sure that they’re not, uh, they’re not going to be surprised by the concept of surrendering and we call it in recovery, living life on life’s terms. So what has your experience with that philosophy of life on life’s terms? How has that impacted you?
Speaker 2 00:03:18 Oh my God. Well, it’s not something that’s ever come natural to me. Um, it’s something I have to work on every single day, but when I do the benefits are, are amazing. Uh, let me tell you a quick story, you know, um, I’m kind of a, I’m a, I’m kind of a panicker. Um, and, um, when things go wrong, my, or when things don’t go as planned, my head goes to catastrophe, um, a couple months ago because, uh, my day job is working for a university and we do graduations and I’m kind of in charge of recording those sorts of things and release, you know, publishing, promoting the recordings of those things. Um, we were doing our very first zoom graduations last may and, uh, things were going really well. I was really surprised at how well they were doing. Um, and then, uh, so we had to break up graduation to like five or six ceremonies, like ceremony, five, 15 minutes beforehand.
Speaker 2 00:04:28 My power goes out, the whole neighborhood’s power goes out. Right. And I’m supposed to be the one recording it, like, um, and so like old Phil would have totally panicked. Uh, if I didn’t reach a solution, uh, quickly, which you really can’t reach a solution very quickly when you’re panicking. Um, I would have just gotten frustrated, given up, probably started drinking. Um, and I didn’t do any of that. I, you know, at this point in may, my meditation practice had been pretty solid for awhile. And, um, I, uh, so I kind of, it, the power went out and it’s not like I was like, oh, great, glad, but I was able to keep calm and serene and accept my power’s out. Yeah. What now, what we didn’t plan for this, but what, what can I do? Um, and, uh, I immediately contacted the president of the university, let her know what was going on and contacted my immediate supervisor and said, here’s how you could record the ceremony for me and then send it to me afterwards.
Speaker 2 00:05:52 Um, and, uh, and so he did, he got it recorded and it was fine. My power was restored within an hour. So by the next ceremony I was back to normal. Yeah. Um, but that’s the sort of thing I would have just hit the wall over before. And so it’s really important to, um, be mindful of practicing this all the time. Yeah. Because it gets rusty real fast. And because I was in a mindset already because I’d been really working in my meditation practice and I’d been working the, the, the, the philosophies and the program to, you know, to keep this front and center in my mind, I was able to accept it, surrender to the reality that I kept no control over. And, um, and then, uh, change, you know, my actions, the only thing I have control over my actions, thoughts and judgments change my ex actions accordingly. And it went fine.
Speaker 1 00:07:00 Yeah. You know, I was raised in a way that led to me believing that I needed to be the master of my universe. And it wasn’t just He-Man that taught me that. Right. Like it was, it was everything it was, if I don’t, um, take control things will hurt me. And I even had been, let’s say called out several times by friends for even approaching dating relationships in the same way I would approach a work problem, I would say, well, what do you do if you’re having issue with someone you’re dating, I would analyze the variables. I would remove the variables that aren’t necessary. And then I would deal with the problems, um, individually in priority. And someone’s like, wow, you can’t approach a romantic relationship like that. Like, they’re not your employee. You can’t just fix problem a and problem be dismissed. Problem C.
Speaker 1 00:08:06 And I was like, of course I can. That’s how you’re effective in life. And this was the way that I lived. And it’s a painful way to live, which is counterintuitive. It feels like that is a, it feels like that’s an organized, effective, smart way to live. But the fact is there’s so little that we have control over that when we hang our entire day on being able to do a B and specifically C and they don’t happen, it hurts. Right. So the concept of life on life’s terms, as I’ve learned it through recovery, is that there’s literally nothing you can control, but yourself, all you can do is show up and moment by moment analyze what’s the next best thing for you to do? We call it right the next right. Action. What’s the next right. Action. I can take in this time. And it’s, it seems like, it seems so basic now that I say it, but it was revolutionary for me. How about you? Like, did it feel like, um, major shift in how you approach your life?
Speaker 2 00:09:19 Oh, absolutely. Uh, you know, like I said, I was a catastrophizer, uh, and, and like you, I was raised, you know, that I had to figure everything out. I had to be very independent. Um, and, um, you know, I, I was the master of my own destiny and if, uh, something went wrong, it was my fault and I had to fix it. Um, and you know, I can do a lot of damage to my life even now, even, uh, even though I’ve, I’ve changed quite a bit. Um, but I do accept that, that so much is out of my control and that’s okay. Because all that same stuff is out of everyone’s control. They’re just fooling themselves into thinking that it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:10:09 That’s the point. That’s the point
Speaker 2 00:10:12 When you fool yourself into it, when you delude yourself that way, like you said, it’s a miserable way to live it. If you can’t be happy, you can’t possibly be happy if your happiness hinges on you getting and things going according to your plans and things going your way in it, you know, because it’s just not going to happen. And even if it happens for a little bit, it’s unsustainable,
Speaker 1 00:10:41 And this is, this is the key of the concept of surrendering that we focus on so heavily in recovery. And I’m telling you for my listeners, like the concept of surrendering to what is, will change your life, because it’s the paradox that we don’t have power, any, like you said, anything we think we can do to, uh, to, to cause a particular impact in our day, our life, the world, another person that’s all illusion. And when you just surrender to the fact that I I’m not, God, I can’t make things happen. I can show up with my intentions and let go of the results. This is how you get power. You get power by not fighting, you know, it’s my favorite. So let’s move on to, uh, to the next topic that we have, which is, um, designing a higher power or a God or whatever type of being that feels right to you designing one that works for you. Can you explain what it means to design a higher power, uh, according to what works for you?
Speaker 2 00:12:02 Absolutely. Um, yeah, I mean, it might sound sacrilegious to some people to design your own higher power. Um, but, uh, what it’s about for me is, um, you know, again, we’re looking at reality, like we were with, uh, accepting life on life’s terms, we’re looking at what, what is really going on, what is real to us, um, and, um, and, uh, what, what is possible. And, um, and so, um, we’re looking at our religious realities. I’m looking at my reality and my higher power has to make sense in my reality, or else I’m not going to be able to turn to my higher power. Um, I have to be able to believe in it. Uh, and so, um, you know, designing my higher power, um, uh, has been, uh, I mean, it’s been a lifelong, um, effort for me. I’ve always been a spiritual seeker.
Speaker 2 00:13:13 I was raised a Roman Catholic, but I have not been Roman Catholic for a long, long time. Um, but for me, it’s really important that my higher power, um, be able to inspire me to do what is right. Um, in those moments that I have to accept life on life’s terms. I have to make choices in those moments. Right. And I need my higher power to inspire me to make the right one. Um, and my higher power has to look out for me. Yeah. Um, and so, um, that’s, that’s really all, I really need to know about my higher power. Yeah. Beyond that. Nothing’s really knowable, you know, um, if you have, uh, some sort of a spiritual higher power, but you can even have, you know, I talked to, I talked to a lot of agnostics and atheists, um, in recovery and, um, you know, you, your, your higher power doesn’t have to be like a dude in the sky. You know, it just needs to be, um, it needs, you need to accept that there are things bigger than you. And that is where you can start with a higher power. There are things bigger than me. There are things more powerful than me. Um, some are good, some are bad. So I need to focus on those things bigger than me that are good for me that are good for my community. Uh, and that’s where my higher power I can begin designing my higher power. And that really helped me early on in sobriety.
Speaker 1 00:15:03 Yeah, absolutely. And so I want to kind of break this up into two, two parts. The first part, talking to listeners who might be atheist or agnostic, um, what does it mean to have a higher power? If it’s not a sentience being, if it’s not a God, then what is a higher power? And you know, what I would offer is that, uh, you know, in, in the 12 steps, and this is the wisdom that you and I are, are excited to share with the listeners. Um, and the 12 steps, if it doesn’t matter, if someone has a God or not, uh, like you said, it matters that it needs to be something bigger than them. And so a lot of people use a group of friends of trusted friends and that while one other person, uh, isn’t really an ideal higher power. If you were to go to two or three people for help or advice and, uh, pick the middle of all of their advice, you’re going to be taken care of.
Speaker 1 00:16:05 Right? Because having that group balances out, everybody’s crazy, everybody’s baggage, and it allows you to pick the, the most loving, sensible response to anything that’s happening. So a higher power could simply be the wisdom of three people, which is greater than the wisdom of one person. Um, and so for those of you who might be, um, agnostic or atheist, when we say design a higher power, what we mean is have a framework for this kind of support that works for you, that feels loving and genuine for you. For some people higher power could be, uh, it could even be, um, scripture for Christians, right? Go into the, go into the, to the Bible and find the guidance that’s there for you that might not work for me, but it’s something that is a source of guidance and support and help. That feels right now for the people who are, uh, who believe in a deity, a sentience being, um, like myself.
Speaker 1 00:17:21 My listeners know I’m not, I don’t qualify as Christian, but I do believe in a God. Um, the purpose of designing a higher power is that if you believe your higher power disapproves of you, if you believe your higher power is coming after you, um, then how on earth can you invite that system of support in to help you now, the logic of this is that if you believe that God is everything, if you believe that God is all, then that means God is approval and disapproval, God is good. God also contains the evil, right? God is everything. And therefore, since we can’t know all about God, like you just said, we can’t know everything that God is, why not wrap our heads around the parts of God that we can understand. Some people envision a God, that’s like a loving parent. Some people envision a God. That’s like a sibling, um, uh, a person that will behave in a way that feels supportive. And so I wonder if you have anything else to add to them.
Speaker 2 00:18:36 Uh, I think that is absolutely 100% right on, and I think that if, even if you do come from a more rigid faith tradition, like I, I came from Catholicism. I, if I were still Catholic, I don’t think there would be, uh, any tension between, um, the, the concept of designing my higher power, uh, and what I was raised with, even though what I was raised with doesn’t work for me, if I were still with that, I think it would, it’s still work because, you know, every major religion believes that, you know, the, the higher power of that religion of that spiritual, uh, system, uh, is, is too great to be comprehended, no matter what. And even if you believe in no religion, there’s still, you know, I recently read astrophysicist astrophysics for people in a hurry by Neil deGrasse, Tyson. Um, and, you know, even the, the, the physical laws of the universe are too great for certainly any one person to understand, but even our scientists don’t understand everything.
Speaker 2 00:19:51 Totally. We still don’t really know how gravity works. We’re getting a better idea all the time, since we discovered gravity waves. That was, that was great, but we’re still kind of confused about how gravity works. And when we get into those big star systems, we don’t know how it works. So there are going to be there, there are rules and laws in the universe that you’re not going to understand, and that’s okay. Focus on what you can understand. And that is what, what, um, what seems right and wrong for you for me, right. And wrong has to do with how the, um, how I interact with, uh, the community around me, um, how I am, uh, bringing value to other people and, and helping other people, um, that’s right. Uh, when I take an exploit from other people that’s wrong. Um, and, uh, and that’s all, I, again, that’s really all I need know.
Speaker 2 00:20:47 Um, and I, I start there and I, I make my decisions that way. And you, like, you beautifully said, having a group of people to consult that have a similar beliefs about how to, how to move within this world has been so helpful for me there. When I, you know, I was not a person who asked for help ever, um, before getting sober, uh, getting sober was kind of the first time I ever asked for help in a long, long time. Right. And, um, I, uh, I, now, when I am feeling stuff, when I’m perplexed over stuff, this is stuff I used to just faster on just barely. Now I reach out when something’s bothering me, I reach out and I talk to people I trust and try and get some insight from them. And that’s how I talked to my higher power.
Speaker 1 00:21:38 Yes. I think, I think that’s perfect because, you know, we didn’t set it up. I didn’t set it up this way at the beginning of the episode, but everyone who’s listening here knows someone touched by addiction, know someone who’s touched by compulsion. And what we’re saying is if these tools, and if these concepts are powerful enough to pull us back from the jaws of addiction, then these things also work. When you have a conflict with someone at work, they also work when your mother pushes your buttons. And they also work when you can’t have what you want out of life. Like it, they work for the big traumas and they work for the little stuff too. And that’s why I felt this was such a valuable episode. Um, because there are people who just don’t know this stuff. Ironically, people who are on a path of spiritual awakening often find this same information, because these concepts are universal among, uh, spiritual teachers.
Speaker 1 00:22:43 You find a lot of these concepts. If you dig under the surface, even in Catholicism, that back in the day when these things were, were, were, were being accepted by the masses, these are the ideas that rituals were built upon, you know, the same concepts. And, uh, I do want to say, though, you talked about how the forces of physics and, uh, are greater than a person, but when bath and body works has buy one, get one free candles. I can bend space time. And I just, I just need you to not get my I’m getting my candles. So yeah, I want to have that caveat. So no great point.
Speaker 2 00:23:27 That’s a great point about all of these spiritual traditions kind of having that same thing. Um, you know, I read a lot of, uh, Taoism, uh, the Dao de Ching and, um, Kwanzaa. And, um, I read a lot of stoicism and these concepts about the higher power and accepting life on life’s terms are prominent concepts in those two traditions as well. And they’re from very different times and very different places. So it is very universal.
Speaker 1 00:24:01 So let’s talk about shame. Shame is the reason why so many of us turned to compulsion’s, um, and, uh, it deepened our reliance on these various substances, whether it’s food or drugs or alcohol to, to, to numb and, and muffle the shame we felt. And so we’ve said that, uh, shame lives in darkness and that when we, we, we take the lid off the shame box and we, we let light shine on it. It loses its power. And I know that there is an expression that we use in the rooms about shame and the burden of it. And, uh, why don’t you share with us how that goes? Sure.
Speaker 2 00:24:45 Well, right. Just very along these lines. One of my favorite expressions, um, is a burden shared, uh, is cut in half and joy shared is doubled. Um, and that also ties into our former topic about, um, you know, about having a higher power and having a group. That’s how I use my higher power in my groups, uh, of trusted people. I, like I said, I go to them with a burden and, um, uh, I find it’s really true. Uh, and the, again, prior to this sort of journey I’m on now, uh, I, I was, I was an island, right. I would walk alone, whatever was happening to me. I would either hold inside bitterly or I would lash out and act out over it, neither, very healthy at all. Um, so instead of doing a tweet storm of anger or, or sitting around moping in bed, or, you know, punching my wall, um, again, I reach out and I share, and this goes for shame.
Speaker 2 00:26:05 And this goes for things that I am, um, hurt by this. This goes for things I’m, you know, uh, I’m disappointed in this goes through things that perplex me when I all, any of those burdens when I share them, um, then, uh, they are less scary. Um, you know, that I saw someone share on Instagram today about, um, uh, something about, uh, psychotherapy, um, that, uh, was really poignant, um, that, you know, a does it, and, you know, a lot of my friends are like trained therapists, but they do some of that same work for me, a therapist doesn’t, um, kill the monsters. The therapist invites them into the room so that you can see that they have no teeth. They got no nothing in their hand and they’re scared and, uh, and weak, um, and, uh, invites them into the room so you can face them. And that’s what sharing a burden does. You can, you can see it for what it is when you’re, when you’re, um, when you’re sharing this burden, when you’re sharing the shame with someone, something you’re very ashamed of or something that’s really just bothering you because you can’t figure it out. Um, it loses its teeth. It loses its teeth so fast. And the more you do it, the easier it gets and the more effective that gets. Yes,
Speaker 1 00:27:42 Yes. And you don’t need to take our word for it. Again, you can go to any religious practice from Catholicism to Judaism. They all have processes where you look at what is weighing you down, and you share it with someone, right? You either go get absolution for a priest, or you have your family ritual in Judaism. And the point is that if you don’t get it off your chest, you begin to withdraw. You begin to live in fear. You begin to live in isolation because you don’t want people to know. And, uh, the fact is, like you said, with that whole monster scenario in the therapist, it’s like the thought and the belief of what we’re holding is so much more harmful than, uh, uh, than what is really there, right? The power is in the thought and the energy we give to it rather than what it actually is. And I mean, why do you think therapy works, right? Why do people pay for therapy? Because they need to go get stuff off their chest. They need to explain, what’s weighing them down. And, uh, yeah. And we do that in recovery. Um, very often that’s what we share about in meetings, right? Like when we talk with, with other members of a fellowship, we share that stuff so that it doesn’t weigh us down and push us back into our compulsion’s again. That’s why it works on the small stuff too.
Speaker 2 00:29:18 Absolutely. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:29:21 So let’s talk, uh, this kind of dovetails with the concept of, um, shame. It talks, it touches on the concept of reaching out to other people on, if you compare you despair. So tell us what that is all
Speaker 2 00:29:36 About. Oh God, that’s another great phrase that I use all the time. Um, and you know, I brought up Instagram in the last, uh, answer, talk about the place where you can compare and despair more than look at Kendall Jenner’s oh man. Like, you know, people are, uh, curating on social media. People are curious, um, their lives to put forward, to maintain an image that they want. And even outside of social media, that people, you don’t see all the warts, you know, people, people put makeup over it. So when we are comparing ourselves to others, we’re comparing ourselves to the image that they want us to see. Um, or the, the image that they’ve they’ve put forward. So it’s really, it’s not, it’s not useful. Again, it gets get goes back to that delusional, um, mindset that, um, you know, we want to get away from, um, it’s, it’s delusional to think that anyone’s life is as perfect as it seems from what you’re allowed to see.
Speaker 2 00:30:51 So when you compare and you say, I wish I had, uh, you know, that, uh, that kind of success. I wish I had the boat. I wish I had the house. I wish I had the husband. Uh, you know, I wish I had the little corgi and, uh, you know, the, uh, all the vacations, you’re not seeing the whole picture. And there are probably some dark things that go along with all that stuff that you don’t have to experience. It’s best to just, um, focus on yourself, don’t compare to, uh, don’t compare your, uh, successes and failures to what other people are putting out there. Um, it’s just not a complete and whole picture. And so therefore it’s not a wise comparison to make. Are you happy? That’s what that do you, are you grateful for what you have? Are you, um, you know, are I have this, this cat that’s sitting right here at my feet, it’s adorable.
Speaker 2 00:32:00 And it’s, it’s sweetest thing in the world. And I have to, I remind myself all the time, how grateful I am that they have the two cats that love me so much. Yes. Uh, that’s a wonderful thing. And not everyone can have that, you know? So, um, you know, are, are you living in gratitude for what? Yeah. Are you, um, you know, appreciating, uh, you know, again, both the Stoics and the Dows and the Buddhists all preach this, you know, being grateful for what you have. Uh, you’d never know when it can be taken from you and not trying to leap over the next hill, you know, um, uh, trying to get the next thing, not waiting and appreciating what you you’ve already attained for getting about ignoring it and, and worrying about the next thing it’s not healthy and it doesn’t work.
Speaker 1 00:32:55 No. And I mean, if you want to take this to a really practical level, um, the last episode was, uh, on or two episodes ago was about accepting the expectations of others as your own. And so here’s, here’s what happens to us, right? As, as, as kids and adolescents, we learn, um, a blueprint for life that is really great for some people. And we extrapolate on that, that it is the only way to achieve a quality life. And, you know, the reason that meditation is so powerful is because it gives you a chance to go inside and learn about yourself, to thine own self, be true. And the fact is, is it necessary to get your two-year-old into that elite pre-K? Is it necessary? Like, can you know that you are hurting your kids chances by not doing that? Like, can you really know that it is, is that what you really want, or is that what you have absorbed as necessary, according to a standard that doesn’t even belong or fit you and, and, you know, do I need to be a vice president of such and such area, a business to have a reasonable life, maybe.
Speaker 1 00:34:39 So for some people that is a fulfilling, exciting part of their life, but for me, so many of us have pursued careers that would allow me to fall into someone else’s mold. And it wasn’t until I got knocked down and someone held my hand and helped me look inside to realize I don’t want that. And I didn’t even know, I didn’t want it. If you would have asked me if I wanted it, I would have said yes, and I would have believed it a hundred percent. But the fact is that I want, I didn’t really want what all these other people had. It just seemed like the winning combination. And by looking inside, I was able to sort through that fog. And so when we say don’t compare, that sounds ridiculous. It sounds impractical not to compare ourselves to others. We see things on the street and we want them right. But do yourself the favor of knowing yourself of taking time to go inside and saying, do I want this because it’s gonna make me feel right? Or do I want this? Because I love myself and there’s going to be an experience of joy, and it’s going to really enrich the joy in my life. Those are not the same thing, always.
Speaker 2 00:36:15 Exactly. And I’m really glad you brought up careers. I had a conversation with a friend in my circle of experts, uh, the other day, um, about ambition and, you know, ambition isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Ambition, ambition got me where I’m at today, but there were times where I was ambitious and miserable, um, because I was, uh, pursuing things they didn’t necessarily really want, or really weren’t for me because I thought that I was, that was I, that was what I was supposed to do. I need to be ambitious and I will find happiness if I’m in business for those things that are a good fit for me, that are attainable, that I’m ready for, that I’ve done the hard work on myself for, um, that I’ve prepared for. And, um, you know, are, are in my wheelhouse and harmony with your values. Exactly. Hmm.
Speaker 1 00:37:16 Yeah, exactly. All right. I love, I love this. I think it’s just so rich. I think it’s so powerful, uh, because I didn’t know what I didn’t know. Um, and you know, if I share with the listeners kind of the alcoholic or the recovery prospect of this, there’s so many reasons to go back into our compulsive behaviors and listen, your problem might not be with a substance. You might be a workaholic, right? Where you, you, you work way harder than is necessary because you need to, um, muffle some other area of your life. You need to numb out some other area of your life. It works just as well with cake. It works just as well with beer. It works just as well with, uh, with drugs. I promise you. Um, but the fact is, uh, no, what matters to, you know, your values? And when I work with clients, um, you know, that’s usually one of the first things that happen.
Speaker 1 00:38:22 Someone walks in and says, I don’t know why my life feels so blah. Like why does my life feels so like, it’s on, um, autopilot and often it’s because you have built a universe that doesn’t belong to you. It was never meant for you. It was never yours. You know, uh, there is a world that will light your soul on fire. You just have to open your eyes and get quiet. So Phil, we are, uh, we’re running close to, uh, to our time limit, but I do want to quickly go over one more. And so I’m just going to let you talk on it and I’m going to keep my mouth shut on it. And this is about keeping your side of the street clean. So can you give the listeners just an overview of what it means to keep your side of the street clean?
Speaker 2 00:39:18 Absolutely. This is kind of the, the, the mirror image to what we just talked about, which is when you compare you to despair, keeping your side of the street clean, you know, it really, um, another way to look at it is, uh, you know, uh, that old saying people in glass houses or, uh, or for the, the Christians in the audience, uh, John eight, seven, let anyone let anyone of you who is without sin, be the first to throw the stone.
Speaker 1 00:39:53 Do you feel racist, serving gospel realness on refractive podcasts?
Speaker 2 00:39:57 It’s, uh, you know, it, uh, again, it could, it goes down to look at yourself first. A lot of these really get down to focus inward instead of outward. So much of my life used to be focusing outward, um, trying to fix things outside of me. I’m trying to be like people that I was never going to be like. Um,
Speaker 1 00:40:24 Phil P everyone else is messed up. People are constantly getting in your way. People are constantly, uh, hurting you, hurting your feelings, um, you know, cutting you off in traffic, uh, flaking off, not showing up for commitments like other people are messed up. So why is it that it’s useful to focus on my side of the street when there’s so many other people who are dragging me down with their hot messes?
Speaker 2 00:40:54 Absolutely. And those people are still going to be hot messes, whether or not I focus on them. If, if my focus is on other people’s problems, other people’s flaws, uh, I’m not going to get peace and serenity. I’m not going to find my joy, um, that happiness, that fulfillment comes from inside of me. Um, and so it doesn’t matter if someone else is cutting me off, um, in traffic, it, what matters is, you know, have I, have I made my gratitude list for the day? Have I pet my cats? Have I, um, you know, eaten a good meal. Um, when I bring that focus back inward, um, and stop focusing on all the flaws I see on other people, I stopped noticing their flaws as much their flaws don’t bother me as much, and I can keep, um, improving my life instead of trying to fix other people. Um, you know, cause there’s lots to fix in my life. I’ve got a lot of work to do. I really don’t have time to fix anyone else’s life. That’s right. Exactly.
Speaker 1 00:42:11 Man, this has been so great. I really, I really love this. Let me just recap the main, uh, nuggets of wisdom that we’ve dug into today. We talked about, uh, surrendering, uh, which, which is living life on life’s terms rather than the life that we try to architect as if we could possibly architect anything. Um, the next was design a higher power that works for you, right? Think about what you need from a higher power, whether it is a sentience being or whether it is not, and, uh, have that framework ready in your mind so that when the, um, when the message, the fan, you have something to fall back on and rely on for support. A burden shared is halved and, uh, shame lives in darkness. So this was the third point that we talked about today. And, um, there’s a reason that it feels good to talk to a friend when something is going wrong.
Speaker 1 00:43:09 Um, do more of that. Don’t just save it for the hard stuff. At the end of the day, if a coworker gave you a nasty side eye, it’s okay to talk to someone and say, I don’t know why she did that. It really upsets me well, because you know, maybe there’s, uh, maybe there’s something you can do about it internally. Instead of focusing externally on that, uh, we talked about when you compare you despair and that in reality, as long as you know yourself, as long as you know, what matters to you, as long as you understand your, um, your values, it doesn’t matter what other people are doing. And it only hurts us when we drown out the voice of guidance inside of us to adopt the voice of guidance of someone else that is, uh, that is painful. Uh, and then the last one we talked about was keeping your side of the street clean. You know what, I apologize when I do something wrong, I focus on doing the things that are good and healthy for me. And if someone hurts, my feelings takes advantage of me, uh, or, uh, behaves in a way that’s not fair. I let them and karma handle them. I don’t need to worry about that. Um, I just say, I’m sorry, when for what I’ve done and that’s it. So, uh, all right, Phil, how can listeners, uh, encounter you and your podcast and all of the goodness that comes out of, uh, the whole field?
Speaker 2 00:44:45 Well, uh, my podcast is called the whole fill podcast and you can find it on any pod catcher, just, um, uh, all the major ones, at least, you know, apple and Google and, uh, iHeart and Castbox, uh, Stitcher just put, uh, just search for whole w H O L E Phil P H I L uh, the whole field podcast. And it should come up, uh, as the top result or one of the first results. Um, please subscribe. I’d really appreciate it. You can also find my we*****@*************ck.com. That’s Phillip with two L’s and, um, uh, you can find me on Twitter at really Phil Reese. You can find me on all these evil, social medias, uh, Facebook I’m, Phil Reese, the DJ and Instagram. I am Phillip Drake, J Reese, uh, and I’m also Phillip J Reese on Twitch where I DJ live on Tuesday and Thursday nights for 45 minutes from seven, 10 to seven 55, uh, Eastern time, the, um, uh, club 45. Uh, and that’s where you can find me.
Speaker 1 00:45:58 So wait, can you say, what is, uh, can you tell people how they can find you on DJ? You said Twitch, uh, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:46:05 Twitch.tv/phillip J Reese.
Speaker 1 00:46:08 Okay. There you go. Perfect. All right, everybody. I want to thank you so much for joining us on refractive podcast today. I want to give my love and gratitude to Phil for coming onto the show today. And as you go about your day and people are stepping on your toes and slamming your door, just remember to be good to other people and aim your light. Take care. You have been listening to refractive podcast, and this is Johnny G. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, do me a favor, give it a share on social media, or if you’re in the podcast app, give it a rating. If you’re on YouTube click, like it really does make a difference in the search results. I am a speaker, coach and facilitator based in Washington, DC, but I work in person and remotely with people who are ready to step with clarity into their most authentic life. If I can be of service, reach out to me, Johnny J O H N N *@****************ng.com have an amazing day. Be good to each other and always remember aim your light.

The Sermon on the Mount summarizes Jesus’ radical, non-religious stance on spiritual living. By encouraging us to behave meekly, not to stockpile food and money for the future, and not to fight back when someone does you wrong, it remains a radical spiritual writing even today. In this age where so many are fighting, yelling, arguing, storming, and rioting in the name of deeply held beliefs, how practical is that guidance in our world? Rich Tafel, Pastor of Church of the Holy City in Washington DC and host Johnny Guidry discuss the Sermon on the Mount and its modern-day application from a spiritual, non-religious perspective.

Learn more about Swedenborg and the Swedenborgian Christian denomination at www.Swedenborg.Org or explore Reverend Rich Tafel’s Church, the Church of the Holy City at HolyCityDC.org. Email Rich Tafel at Re******@********DC.org

For similarly-themed episodes, try The Ancient Truths of Acceptance & PLINKO or Surrender to Greatness

To read the Sermon on the Mount, check out Matthew Chapters 5-7. A link to those chapters in the NIV Bible is here.

A transcript of the episode is offered below. Please note that the transcription is done automatically by software, so please excuse any errors.

Ever since you can remember, you felt something in your chest telling you to move, to love, to speak, to try day after day. You pretend you don’t hear calling. Maybe you dismiss it as silliness or worse, but it’s there ready for you and blue wave for you. And as long as you mean, my name is Johnny G and I invite you to join me on a journey of awakening as we dare to embrace our light. This is refractive.
Speaker 1 00:00:47 Hi everybody. And welcome to another episode of refractive. I am here today with, uh, someone who I met, uh, maybe about two years ago. Now he is the pastor of a church that I attend. And, uh, I’m really pleased to introduce him to you. His name is rich. Toffel rich Toffel is a leader at the intersection of faith politics and social impact as pastor of church of the holy city in Washington, DC. In 2016, he launched a spiritual entrepreneur center, bringing inner life with social impact. Rich serves on the governing board of the national council of churches, where he’s a member of the Christian Muslim dialogue and the interfaith table ordained in the Swedenborgian church. Rich is a graduate of Harvard divinity school and served as the assistant minister at the Memorial church of Harvard university. Rich also serves as the founding director of Marcom social capital advisors since 2016, there he matches impact investors to vetted social ventures. He also founded public squared as a strategy and coaching company focused on supporting social impact businesses, coaching over 400 clients through all of his work in faith, politics, and business. He’s motivated to help those without a voice to live in a more just world. And all of those reasons are why I’m happy to present him to the listeners of refractive. Rich, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2 00:02:14 I’m doing great, Johnny. It’s great to see you. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:02:16 Absolutely same here. And, um, I thought that we could spend some time today talking about a really central part of, of the gospels. Um, this is more specifically referring to the sermon on the Mount, which is one of Jesus’s most iconic teachings. And I have always felt that it’s revolutionary and its message. And, uh, so I thought someone with your background with your passion, uh, would be able to be a good partner to work with me, to share this with listeners who may not be so familiar with it, to understand how, in my view it was Jesus reaching to people who were outside of the confines of religion and dogma, and really providing a spiritual path rather than a religious path for elevating your life, elevating your soul presence and, uh, changing how you show up in the world. And I think that’s really massive.
Speaker 2 00:03:20 Yeah, it’s real easy. You got the right word there. It really is revolutionary in that sermon on the Mount, he takes a lot of traditional ways of looking at the world, uh, the powerful, the strong, the mighty, and he flips it and basically says that the kingdom of heaven or the way to heaven or the spiritual path, all of those happen the opposite way, the meek, the poor, those that are not violent. And so it was radical. Then, as you said, he was a really a criminal among the religious establishment that’s who was really most upset. And frankly, his message today, even for your listeners, they would be very surprised probably if they read it because it doesn’t correspond to what they may associate with Christianity. In other words, Christianity in many ways has fallen into the same trap as the religious fundamentalists of his time who condemned it. And though they would use the name Jesus or Christ as what they’re following. Um, that message is still radical. It’s still not being acted on. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:04:20 Absolutely. And I think that you specifically are a really strong, um, choice as a guest to come talk on this because of the nature of the Swedenborg faith. And I would love for you to share with the listeners just a little bit about what this, uh, Christian denomination believes, how it observes Christianity, um, and, uh, you know, because I think it could be eyeopening. Sure.
Speaker 2 00:04:52 Yeah. It’s a, it’s a V it’s a somewhat obscure, uh, Christian denomination, but it’s basically a Christian mysticism. So it’s a little outside of the traditional Christianity and it believes in Jesus has God. So that’s a traditional thing. It believes in the Bible, but it doesn’t see the Bible as a literal book that you would go to and literally interpret the story from the old Testament and apply that today. It would require interpretation and even a deeper spiritual understanding of the scriptures that makes it different. Um, it’s mystical in the sense that the, the Emanuel Swedenborg Christian scientist mystic said he saw heaven and hell, which is pretty out there. That’s very mystical. And in that experience, uh, he saw, wow, uh, in the next life, all faith paths, um, were welcoming to heaven. That was a radical statement. Uh, he also saw that many, uh, people who had been Christian leaders, um, were in the other place hell and he describes him heaven and hell in a very different way than traditional Christianity, as opposed to somewhere, you would go on a judgment day and you’d be, they’d look at your life or what you do.
Speaker 2 00:06:01 You proclaim a certain belief. You go to heaven or hell. He says, basically we begin that decision-making process in our life through our action. So when we’re loving another person, we’re on a path to heaven. When we are engaged in selfish, domination and evil were on a hellish path. And then after we pass from this world, we basically joined the community that shares our love. And so that freedom has to allow for people who are evil to be together. And, uh, that that would be their choice. It’s not a condemnation to hell. So that’s, that’s a very different way of looking at it as well. So I think the idea that all faith paths are good. Your purpose here on earth is to be useful and of service. It’s critically important. So it’s not afterlife focused. You don’t behave certain ways on this planet to get into heaven or to avoid hell.
Speaker 2 00:06:55 You actually behave in this world because that’s what you’re called to do, which is to be a fight for justice fight for the least of these is, is your purpose. And it’s to love your, to love God is to love your neighbor. You can’t do one without the other. So it’s a very, um, it has a very active life in this world. It’s, it’s not that. So those are some of the biggest differences. It’s a very evolutionary and its view of the Bible and of life. It believes the world is evolving spiritually. It believes we evolve spiritually and it believes that the Bible is almost a guide book of spiritual evolution. More than I say, say a history or a science book.
Speaker 1 00:07:32 And I mentioned, go ahead,
Speaker 2 00:07:33 Please. Just say, does that make sense? That’s absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:07:36 To me it, well, to me it makes sense. So, uh, I hope for the listeners to, I’ve mentioned in earlier episodes that while I don’t consider myself to be a traditional Christian, um, that I do go to a church and it’s your church. And, um, I remember the first time that you and I met, I had requested for us to have a conversation so that I could learn more about your church. I had kind of stopped and found a brochure and read about it. And I thought that, um, for me, what I wanted was to go to a place where I could be in the same, um, proximity with other people who are, um, I mean, worshiping would be the traditional terms, but for me it’s more about like elevating my vibration and, and, and, you know, just surrendering into the spiritual moment. And I wanted to, to, to, to be in the presence of other people doing that. And that’s why I started going to your church. And I told you that I don’t come from a place where I see Jesus as my Lord and savior. And what does that mean for my place in your church? And I was really interested in, in your response. So I would like for you to, um, share that, uh, how do you reconcile the fact that you believe that Jesus is Lord, um, yet also have a belief system that all faiths have a path?

Speaker 2 00:09:09 Yeah. It’s not mutually exclusive. There’s a view that if you believe in Jesus, it’s a binary, therefore I’ve got to condemn everybody else. If you look at Jesus or Christ consciousness, um, having, coming into the world as the path of love than anybody who was on that path is engaging in that energy. They could call it different things. And my experience in my life has been that many people who use the word Christian, which would say I’m a follower of Jesus have been some of the more darker forces I would even say hellish forces. Um, it makes me angry because they are branding Christianity for a lot of people as this sort of shame-based judgmental, condemnation, um, and hypocritical generally, there’s a lot of hypocrisy in those groups. Uh, and so, uh, for me, uh, I’ve also worked with a lot of people of all face.
Speaker 2 00:10:01 As, as you mentioned, I do Christian Muslim dialogue. I’ve worked a lot in the Jewish community and I’ve worked a lot with Buddhists. And, um, and I work with a lot of atheists and particularly in my coaching practice, that was really fascinating in my coaching practice that clients would say to me, rich, I had to overlook the fact that I saw you were a minister. He was a coach because I’m atheist. What I have found to be true. And this fits in actually with our tradition is that people who would call themselves agnostic or atheist many times live a life of love to the neighbor, much better than people who have a, who call themselves Christian. So I’m not so interested in so much what you say. Um, I would say I’m much more curious. What do you do? Who are, are you working on it?
Speaker 2 00:10:54 Are you humble? Are you reflecting on your life? Are you trying to be a better person every day? Um, and how that works? The tricky part for me though, Johnny, you said something really interesting about coming to a group. I have found in my life that I’ve, uh, maybe the hardest thing has been forgiveness, for example, and that’s powerful spiritually. I don’t know how people who don’t tie into a spiritual energy of some kind can do that, but they must. So for me, I’m, I’m humble by my faith. It doesn’t make me proud. It’s like I couldn’t do those things without a faith and I can’t do it alone. I think a lot of America particularly are radically individuals and are a lot of our spiritual seeking is radically individual. I think we have to do this in community, as you were describing. And in our service, as you mentioned, the sermons pretty short and the service is very short. It’s a half hour, but we talk and discuss and dialogue for an hour. To me, that’s more important. I want to hear the diverse voices now everybody’s seeing it. And let’s all learn from each other from the different perspectives. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 00:11:58 Yes. And I know as well that you were involved in, uh, as I mentioned during your bio, uh, you were a gay activist and you’re still involved in many instances like that. So what is, uh, what’s the belief system of homosexuality as relative to the Swedenborgian faith?
Speaker 2 00:12:20 Well, we do, uh, ordain gay ministers, which is obviously me and I’m at the national church and being quite supported. So we’re a very welcoming church. This is all probably in the last couple of decades. So this is an evolving thing. It’s an unusual and new thing. I will say when I started my path toward becoming a minister in my twenties and went to divinity school and I worked at the chapel at Harvard, I also was coming out and to a person, everybody said, you need to find a new career. And that was true. So there was no path forward for me, even though I had been ordained and I switched kind of into politics and public policy, but, uh, I’ve come full circle back to a church, but I, I was quite bitter, frankly, myself. Sure. Because, um, I was dealing, I was an aids activist and I was also a gay activist. So Mo most of my encounters with so-called Christians were in debates sometimes bitter debates, sometimes cruel debates. And so, uh, I got to see up close and personal, um, how negative Jesus could be portrayed. And I was in some cases fighting for Jesus when I would be debating or arguing basis.
Speaker 1 00:13:29 Yeah. All right. Um, well thank you for giving us some background into your faith, because for me, uh, the stuff that you shared with the listeners is why I feel so at ease with bringing you onto the show, because I know that you and I have no argument, we have no disagreement like our, our beliefs dovetail, um, in a very, uh, very lovely way. And, uh, so thank you in advance for coming on and talking about this, um, the Bible, which is a topic that my listeners might not expect me to have a show on. Um, but I feel strongly that, um, the Bible is chock full of just timeless, beautiful wisdom for how to, uh, how to live a freer life, how to live a life of serenity and joy and abundance and flow. And I think the, the, uh, the sermon on the Mount for me is a combination of all of that.

Speaker 1 00:14:27 So what do you say we dig in? Sure. Let’s dig in. So the be attitudes are something that so many of us, I went to a Catholic school as a kid, and, you know, the beatitudes were something that we learned early on and they are, uh, the first part of the sermon on the Mount. So I’ll go ahead and read the beatitudes for listeners who may not be as familiar with them. And then I’d love to hear from you. Um, what think the practical, useful messages for us are in this, in these verses. Now, when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up, oh, and this is, uh, Matthew chapters five through seven is the sermon on the Mount. Now, when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountain side and sat down. His disciples, came to him and he began to teach them.
Speaker 1 00:15:13 He said, blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted, blessed are the meek for, they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful for, they will be shown mercy, blessed are the pure in heart for, they will see God blessed are the peacemakers for, they will be called children of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me rejoice and be glad because great is your reward in heaven for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you so rich, what do you think is the practical guidance for us? And why is this so revolutionary?
Speaker 2 00:16:05 Well, I guess we could go through each one, but I think primarily what it’s doing is, um, what’s fascinating is the world of today is not that different in many ways, its values of, uh, 2000 years ago, when he’s speaking to the audience, we can both kind of understand that let’s just talk about today. The value system today would pretty much say to be successful, is to have money, have a lot of money, um, have a lot of power, money, power, dominion, over other people, control of people. Um, celebrity status, maybe, um, your well-known, um, material items, um, you know, beautiful home, beautiful car, beautiful appearances. So very materialistic worldview. And that was certainly true in his time. It’s radically true today. And the beatitudes kind of flip all of that. They basically say, um, if I would sum up in one thing, you know, blessed are the meek, blessed are the weak, bless it are the losers. Bless it are the underdogs. Bless it are people who are persecuted bless it are people who are suffering. It flips that whole narrative that, um, what the world sees as successful is not successful successful is these other positions often that appear weak in the world, but are loving, caring, compassionate, creating justice, doing good, and being at peace in your own heart happiness. So it flips the whole narrative. It’s erratic. It’s just surprising how radical it is today that we’re still in a world where it runs against the grain completely.
Speaker 1 00:17:40 Yeah, that’s right. And you know, for people who would say, well, I don’t aspire to be wealthy. I don’t aspire be famous. I don’t aspire, you know, for, for the power and celebrity that rich just mentioned. I mean, I would say, you know, it just happens to look a little different in our world, but we look for promotions at work. We look to be managers, right? We look for raises and it doesn’t mean that we need to be, uh, wealthy and powerful in the legendary sense. We look for security in more money, uh, more validation, more freedom, quote, freedom, right. In being a decision maker, let’s say in the workplace. And, uh, and so it’s the same, it’s the same thing in a slightly different costume, you know, and I know for me, I clawed my way as high up as I could, as I could day after day after day and work, because I believed that was the way that I was going to find freedom and peace. That one day I would get to a level where I no longer needed to struggle. And like, we all, like, we know, like that’s, that’s ludicrous, that’s false. It’s illusion. It’s a lovely, lovely fantasy it’s mythology.
Speaker 2 00:19:02 Right? I think you’ve, you’ve, you’ve flipped it really well. The success cannot be gained externally. It, you can’t buy it. You can’t, it sounds cliche. You can’t buy it. You can’t measure it by how many followers you have on Instagram or how many people, um, think you’re the, you know, you’re great. It, those are all outside measurements. It really has to be a peace that passes all understanding the same heart, regardless of circumstances. And you can’t get that from just the outside. Whereas in the most that we have to integrate, we have to live in this outside world, but to be dominated by what success says by that, it has to be an inner journey. And we have to transform ourselves on an interior set. What’s interesting to me, as you’re speaking is that during COVID this last year, the number of people who have a kind of close to my age, a lot, mainly men, because most of my clients have been women for coaching.

Speaker 2 00:19:59 But lately men closer to my age or older who have done that ladder, they have done it. They are on the, a list. They are famous people. You recognize their names in either politics or business. And they’re coming to me and saying the pandemic had them force them to look within and recognize one that they had kind of done the checklist you just described. They got the money, they got the status. They are sought after they all are there popular authors, popular speakers, whatever they wanted to be. They got all that. And as they would say to me, I don’t know my own heart. I don’t know when I asked them, like, what do you love? What are you passionate about? They cannot, yes, it was there. They, that, that, that is not, they’ve never had permission to look within. And then, you know, almost we have to talk about what they want to be as a child. You have to get to who they really are. And, um, this, the sermon on the Mount is basically saying focus on that inner journey. Um, this outward stuff, it, you’re gonna be told this a success you’re gonna be told. This will be achievement. There is certain gratification through the whole process, but you’re going to end up empty. If that’s all that you do.
Speaker 1 00:21:17 I see an additional facet to this, which it’s all part of the same coin. Um, but in the 12 step community where I am, you know, where I’m a part of that, um, there something called the, uh, the 10th step promises and one of the 10 step promises. My favorite is we have ceased fighting anyone or anything. And when you think about the concept of we have ceased fighting anyone or anything, it’s easy to dismiss this as impractical because, well, what if there’s a war? What if there is? What if someone walks up to the street and tries to take, you know, to steal my bag? What do I do? You know? Well, the beatitudes talk a lot at, to be attitudes. The sermon on the Mount talks a lot about stopping, fighting. And even in what we just read with the beatitudes, it says, you know, uh, blessed are the meek, right?
Speaker 1 00:22:12 People who are not, uh, bold and are not, uh, asserting themselves in front of crowds, blessing are the merciful. The people who are not seeking revenge and, uh, in vengeance and all of that blessed are the peacemakers, right? Well, in order to make peace, it means you, you, you can’t engage in the fight that’s brought to your doorstep. Um, blessed are those who are persecuted blessed. Are you? When people insult you persecute, you say evil against you. So it doesn’t say, bless it. Or those who justly defend themselves. That’s not what it says. It says blessed are those who rise above the struggle and see things from a higher perspective. Blessed are those who understand that this earth world is it’s a learning ground for your soul. It and rise above it. See it from 10,000 feet and realize that when someone hurts you, they’re in pain. And how about finding a place of mercy for the pain they’re in, that causes them to lash out and to hurt others. And to say, they’re not doing this because of me. I’m not even a part of this. They don’t know how else to soothe the burning pain inside their spirit, other than to do this. And I hope they find a way to do that. You know, that for me is what it stirs in my heart. When I read about it. It’s,
Speaker 2 00:23:44 It’s very hearing you talk about it. Cause I can see, you can almost see the spiritual enter the energy and inner life and the work you’ve been doing in your own life. And it’s just coming, right. It’s it’s there it’s, it’s it’s then
Speaker 1 00:23:56 Don’t let him I’m sweating right now. And don’t confuse
Speaker 2 00:23:58 Any of that with not being powerful, because what you just said was very powerful. It’s just that for all the things you just described, they are only accomplished when you’re at peace within yourself, it cannot be accomplished by being at war with others and at war with yourself. It’s the state of being that the, the ability to get to those goals, and those are goals to be meek and a situation where you want to brag, or when you’re, um, being merciful, particularly refer, not wanting to engage in revenge. Those are all, um, spiritual disciplines. And as I say, my own life, I work on all of those. I think when I see the change taking place in my life, when I don’t hold a grudge anymore, when I can see that, actually everybody I’m engaging with is a child of God. And if you want to get really mystical about it, part of me, we’re all part of the same.

Speaker 2 00:24:50 That’s right. Um, I’m, I’m, I’m talking, I’m talking to, uh, you know, part of the creation, I’m part of the creation as is the trees, the woods, the forest. Um, so we’re all part of this. So, um, this is a child of God that God loves us as much as God loves me. And I’ve now projected all this onto them. Um, I will add, I just to be clear because I get this question from women a lot, um, you know, does, does that require you to, uh, stay in abusive relationships? So I just want to be point blank. No, of course, no. Um, we’re we, we, we should not, and that has been manipulated. The texts of this have been used manipulatively by religious leaders to keep women in abusive situations and so forth and say, Hey, look, the husband submit yourself to your husband. So I just want to be super clear that that’s not what it’s saying. It’s but it is talking about a state of being yes. And deal with, uh, frankly you’re dealing with evil or, um, you know, challenges.
Speaker 1 00:25:49 Yes. And, uh, I, I’m glad that you mentioned that because, um, when I talk, when I’ve talked with people, I gave a, I gave a workshop on, um, what does it mean to stop fighting in a practical sense? And, you know, we’ve just gone through a very volatile election. I mean like any election isn’t volatile, but we went through a really raw election and people are saying, what do you mean? I’m not supposed to fight. I’m watching, I’m watching an attack on the people who can’t defend themselves. It’s my role and my responsibility to step up and fight for them. And my challenge to that is calling your Congressman is not fighting. Voting is not fighting, but when you engage another person where your goal is to have them submit to your point of view, that’s fighting, that’s different than flexing the power. That naturally is yours as a part of this system.
Speaker 1 00:26:50 You know, it’s about, to me, it’s about ego. Does my ego get brought into this argument? Or can I simply explain my perspective and unattached from what the other person says back? You know, because that’s the difference to me between fighting and, um, taking care of yourself if someone hits me. Okay. Th the challenge is, uh, do I, do I walk away and not care that some people might see me as a coward or, uh, does my ego flare up and require me to be seen as equal to, or greater than the person who hit me. Right. And the fact is it’s, it’s mythology, right? It’s only my ego that wants to feel like I wasn’t a sucker, right. I’ve already been punched. That’s over. Do I get punched in again? Or do I walk away? You know, um, because I have the ability to fight or to simply defend myself in another way, which is to remove myself from the situation. And I don’t mean to simplify situations like abusive marriages or anything. I’m talking more along, uh, in more general terms. Um, but there is, in my view, a guidance in these words that says, uh, is there a way to take care of yourself that involves avoiding causing another person to submit?
Speaker 2 00:28:18 Yeah, the reason I do the, uh, the public policy work and the political work is I’m very worried about the fact that we’ve lost that in our political culture. So now, um, the idea has traditionally been well. We want to get people to agree with us. That’s not the goal of a pluralistic country. It’s basically to say you and I disagree. And, um, we disagree strongly, and I believe the tax code should be this. You believe it should be that. I believe that we should have tariffs. You don’t, I believe this on immigration. You believe that, but I can still love you. That’s what’s missing. What we’ve done is now said that those political views that you hold, um, are evil and it’s really a form of puritanical religion. That’s come back into the culture again, where now you’re a heretic. Uh, I, and I must, if you’re evil, um, I have no choice, but to be violent against you.

Speaker 2 00:29:12 Yeah. Cause I must subdue evil. And if that violence means canceling you at your job, um, getting you fired, getting you publicly humiliated, I’ll start there. But if it also means, uh, physically physical violence, that’s okay because I’m doing it for good. And that’s a very, very dangerous energy that could rip everything apart in this country. And of course it manifested itself, um, most dramatically on January 6th when it was unbelievable. We had an insurrection at our Capitol, which I, you know, many of us couldn’t have imagined in our lifetime. And so we’re, we, we have the choice to descend down that spiral down where we can have people like you, who are doing what you’re doing and the leadership you’re providing to a new generation and talking about love, compassion, forgiveness, and notice. It’s not agreement agreement. It is not about agreeing no thing. I completely disagree with you on this. And I love you to death and we have to get that back or we’re going to be in big trouble.
Speaker 1 00:30:18 Yeah. And you know, in the sermon on the Mount Jesus doubles down on this, just a few verses later, when we get to, let me see, I’ll tell you, um, Matthew chapter five, verse 38 to 42, uh, Jesus says, do, do, do, do you have heard it was said, I for an eye and tooth for a tooth, but I tell you do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them, the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to Sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. And then on verse 43, you have heard it was said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your father in heaven. He causes his son to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Speaker 1 00:31:14 And there’s this just weaves so beautifully through so much of what we’ve already said. I’ve also, I’ve often been confused by, um, by verse 40, which says, if someone takes your shirt, give them your coat too, am like, what does that even mean? But on this spiritual journey that I’ve had over the past couple of years, like, it’s like, it’s so clear to me. And it comes back to if someone hurts you, whether they steal, they disrespect, they, they hit whatever they are in pain. And they will go through their own journey of eventual healing from the pain. Uh, and they have their own karma and they have their own suffering that they’re dealing with. And if you can just recognize that the depth of the suffering that causes them to hurt you, then you can say, take it, take it. Because by doing that, you are not adding to their suffering. They’re going to have to pay for what they’re doing on a different level, on soul, on a soul level. And all we can do is say, wow, that person is in pain. You know, and that message to me, it just blares out in neon lights now.
Speaker 2 00:32:34 Yeah. What you’ve developed Johnny, which is, I would say SPE, a spiritually of person is deep empathy. The ability to be in another person’s shoes, our natural tendency is to be selfish. We are the heroes of our own story. Our stories about us, everything that bad has happened has been done against us by evil forces, everything good in our life is the good things we’ve done. Anything we’ve done wrong is because we were forced to do it. And we were punished. You’re saying actually, no, get into the other person’s shoes. No, they might be wounded. As we all are know that they could be in great pain. No, that they, um, are, uh, not necessarily evolved that they’re focused on, you know, on, uh, different needs. And if you can rise above it and you can truly put yourself in their shoes, that’s truly loving the other person.
Speaker 2 00:33:27 Yes. That’s the compassion that you’re, that you’re showing and that we would want to develop what Jesus is also trying to say to the religious establishment. And it would be true today. It, transactional relationships are, uh, are not what it is to follow him. He’s saying it’s not about just loving your tribe. And then your family, he even has a passage where he says, even the devil does that. Um, he’s like even the dark forces will do that. It’s really, it’s only when you can get outside of yourself and your so-called enemy and seeing the people that you hate, um, and getting that hatred out of your life. A good personification of all this Johnny and in modern life he’s overused, but, but under red is, is, uh, Reverend Martin Luther king Jr. Is the personification of that, those skills. And he’s become somewhat less popular in the current moment because people say that he was weak and that his positions were weak, particularly on non-violence. And, um, again, he, he strikes me as a very powerful force, someone really trying to live in for, for whatever reason, the last line, I just read his letter from a Birmingham jail last night. And he’s saying to the, to his, his clergy who are criticizing him for being, uh, doing what he’s doing, he’s, he’s challenging them to do exactly what as you’re asking us to think today. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:34:53 Oh, I love it. I’m like, my energy is like buzzing. I’m just like, like I can’t even control it. Uh it’s it’s it’s this is such a powerful conversation right now. Um, all right. Let’s keep charging forward. Another part of the sermon on the Mount and this one I really love because, uh, right now in my life, um, it applies very much to the path I’ve chosen. Um, it applies to a way of living that I would have never sanctioned, never sanctioned in, in all my years until now. Um, it’s the idea of not stockpiling resources for, uh, for the future, and there’s a whole spectrum of ways to apply this. And so I certainly don’t mean to imply that my personal path is the right path for others. Um, but this passage is another one that has stood out to me as, um, comforting guidance for me.
Speaker 1 00:36:00 And this is chapter seven chapter. I think it’s chapter seven, verse 25. It might be chapter six, but I think it’s chapter seven. Therefore I tell you do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink or about your body. What you will wear is not life more than food and the body more than clothes. Look at the birds of the air. They do not sow or reap or store away in barns. And yet your heavenly father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they can, any one of you by worrying at a single hour to your life, and then skipping down to verse 34 at the end of this particular section, therefore do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

And I, um, you know, I cashed out my 401ks to be able to take the journey that I’m taking right now.
Speaker 1 00:37:02 And, um, I’ve never once heard anyone say, oh yeah, it’s okay to cash out your 401ks. You know, and I can’t say that it was a comfortable decision. It’s not something I did joyfully. Um, but ultimately I was able to make this decision because I know that as my resources, ebb and flow, no matter how high or how low they get in each moment, I will know what to do and what to do may mean going get a second job at Starbucks, what to do may mean, um, you know, uh, getting a cheaper place to live or selling my car to pay off bills. Um, but those are all valid ways to make it through. And, uh, it’s just to me, this has been so comforting and I know that you gave a sermon on this. I remember I remember it, um, maybe in early 2020, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on what is the practicality of this idea of stop worrying about tomorrow?
Speaker 2 00:38:13 Well, the obvious thing there is the worrying. It doesn’t add anything. It adds stress. And so we’re a con work a nation, for example, in the state of worry, to the point where our mental health and our use of psychotropic drugs to deal with it is skyrocketed. And so, so no one can say, you know, I worried about this now, can you be concerned about your future and kind of plan for your future? Absolutely. You should. Um, it’s different for everybody. I would. What what’s interesting about your life and to the extent that I know your life is that you made some very big decisions in your relatively young life, that run counter to the advice that we all get. You were, you were working for a respected corporation. You’re supposed to work your way up, fill your 401k. Um, I don’t know you all that well, but I’ll say I’ll take a guess that it had, you continued on the path of that you were told to be on.
Speaker 2 00:39:10 Um, you might not even live to be an older person. So we’re talking about physical life and death. You made a dramatic change. It was bold. It is be attitudes. Jesus’ sermon on the mountain. Bold, you flipped the complete narrative, everything that you were told, I would argue did it, would it, you know, that that kind of stuff saves your soul in your life, maybe even saved your life. And now, um, we’re just really seeing the beginning of all the people you’re helping through your coaching and strategy that you’re providing to a whole new generation. You’re going to be a real to people because you’re doing what they want to do. And they know their inner voice is saying, and I’m sure you hear this all the time from clients. I want to get out of here. There’s no way out. This is how much the rent is.
Speaker 2 00:39:58 This is how much the car payment is. This is how much Starbucks costs this. There is no way out I am stuck. I hate it. And I’m worried I’m in a constant state of worrying about tomorrow and what’s so beautiful in your life is you’ve taken it. Um, but I would say you’re an example of saving a life and then saving many lives by being that model when we met that’s what was, that’s what drew me to you. It’s, there’s a charisma. There there’s a, an energy there of someone who is saying, um, I don’t have it all figured out, but I’m going to take some bold moves because I know if I stay on this path, this is what the world says. That is success. That that is not going to work for me. And how you figured that out. I guess that would be my question for you as like, from a coaching question. What was that moment where you said this narrative that I’m on, this is, this is not the path. This is not going to work because, so if you can do that.
Speaker 1 00:41:00 So, um, well, what happened to me was, um, I felt, I felt trapped by my career, like you mentioned earlier, and there was no, uh, in my view, there was no financially feasible way to get out. And so my plan was that I was going to, uh, join the Navy as an officer. It’s something that I wanted to do when I was young, but I was gay. And, uh, and there was just no way that I felt that, uh, I didn’t feel like it was the right move for me. And as a culture has shifted as my reliance on the acceptance of others has shifted. I, and as my confidence and my authority in life and my expertise in what I do has grown, I felt like I had the tools that I could not only go through it, but do it well. So I got about halfway through the process of, uh, of starting, um, uh, officer candidate school.
Speaker 1 00:41:59 And I found like my references and I took the test, the oar and all of that. And, um, I started, uh, binge eating again. Now I had a rather dramatic past with compulsive eating and, um, I gained weight and I couldn’t stop. And I worked on this. It, it, it, when I talked to the recruiter, he said, listen, if you still want to come in, you can, but you’re going to have a very unpleasant asterisk next to your name. And they will do what you can’t do for you. And I don’t recommend it. It’s very unpleasant. And you’re going to get unwanted attention from your commanding officers and whatever, until you get down to where they want you to be, as far as weight and physical health. And I was like, well, that doesn’t sound good. I’m not going to do that. So I kept trying and trying and trying, and for two, I even quit my job.

Speaker 1 00:42:55 I quit my job because I was only a few months away and I started to balloon up and, um, for two years I got help. I, uh, I dug deeper into recovery. I was seeing a therapist, I hired a personal trainer. I did everything and I still gained weight more and more and more. And after two years of beating my head against a rock, I felt utterly hopeless. And I had by then taken another job in HR because I didn’t know what else to do. And, um, and I was like, what am I going to do? This was my way out. Well, uh, in the recovery fellowship that I was in, um, someone said, it sounds like there’s a spiritual problem there. And, uh, and so this unlocked a path it started with just Googling podcasts to help me build a relationship with a higher power.
Speaker 1 00:43:58 I didn’t know how to do that. I started doing that, which led me to books, which led me to podcasts, which led me to Oprah SuperSoul conversations, which blew the doors open. As I heard all of these spiritual thought leaders talk about how they develop this path. And, um, it’s through that process that I just had a massive paradigm shift and awakening. And I started to see, um, I started to see that my life was built on this physical struggle rather than on this, um, spiritual flow. And, uh, and that’s, that’s, what’s, that’s w that’s where I’ve been for these past three years is learning how to catch these waves and surf this spiritual flow. And I just, um, I’m so grateful that something stepped in and stopped me from being on that path and being an eight year commitment to be a Naval officer, which I’m sure would have had its own benefits, but, um, something helped me and nudged me onto a path that has given me freedom.
Speaker 1 00:45:06 I, I can say I’m happy. I can say I’m happy rich. It’s the first time in my life. It’s the first time in my whole life that I can honestly say that I’m happy. And I just feel taken care of. I feel taken care of, and I just never felt taken care of. I felt like it was my job to take care of myself as if I could make myself draw one breath as if I could give myself a job as if I could give myself the ability to do anything. All of that illusion of control has been washed away. And now, um, I get what flows before me, like I receive what flows before me and that’s it. And it’s, uh, and it causes me to see things like the scriptures in a different way now.

Speaker 2 00:45:52 Wow, that’s beautiful. You are a personification really of the sermon on the Mount, which is flipping all the stories. And, uh, I do find that would be interesting if I was, if I was curious, like you were, what was interesting in your story is one. You didn’t say like I became a Christian or I became a Mormon and I became a Pentecostal. You, you open yourself up to the spirit. The spirit will guide you where you are. It you do not need to join a religion or give a name to it. The forces of good. I, I would, I would call them angels. That will sound weird to a lot of people, but I think they’re ready to work for you. They want to help steer you and guide you and nudge you. And I will say in my own life, very similar stories where I was pushed and shoved and, um, high doorways close to me, very perfectly to get back on the right path.
Speaker 2 00:46:43 It was almost like a GPS system is like, well, take a left turn at the next light, take a left turn. You turn. But I kept going on the path. Cause I, you know, um, you know, I thought that was the path. And, uh, but I knew it wasn’t and, uh, we get steered back. If we ask, if we just ask whatever you believe that forces in the universe, um, whatever name you give to it, it’s not so important, but there are good forces that want to steer us toward. Good. What I love most about your stories? You, you summarize it by saying, um, I’m at peace. I’m at peace with myself. To me, that’s the sermon on the Mount. It’s not, it’s, it’s being at peace. It’s being calm. People hire me as a coach and they say, I’m going to pay you a lot of money.
Speaker 2 00:47:29 Get me calm, you know, get, how do I get peace? I want to be like, and I always like, you’re not going to be like me. Yeah, you’re going to be you. But it’s going to take us a while to figure out who you are because it’s, it’s clouded and all these other, uh, false labels that you’ve accumulated. So it’s, it’s amazing at your, you know, at your young age that this all became so clear to you, what I’m sure you found also was all the people who naysayers you, really, what they wanted was what was best for you. Anybody who cared about you, they, but now that they see that when you say I’m happier than I’ve ever been, they’re like, well, that’s what we always wanted for him. Well, they did that. They just, they bought into, this is the, the, the, these are the five things he’s got to do.
Speaker 2 00:48:15 Yeah. And they’re almost like rules of life. If you don’t have the 401k and you don’t have this, that and the other. And, um, I won’t, I will, I will summarize it by saying, I will not be surprised that you will have enough money to retire. Yeah. That was contrary to what we’re talking about, but it is an interesting how the energy and the flow and your coaching practice and your, your teaching will multiply and grow, and you’re going to have a larger impact and people will be happy to, uh, to, to pay you for that. And we live in a material world and we have to get paid. And so we do it, but it’s not the focus. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:48:49 Yeah. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. Rich, if people are interested in visiting, uh, visiting your church or understanding more about the Swedenborgian denomination, how can they find either information on that? Or how can they find your specific church? I don’t even know because I’m in Maine right now. I don’t even know if you are having physical services or not. So give us some information on that. Sure.
Speaker 2 00:49:15 Uh, we have been doing services on zoom since a year ago and, uh, and we’re going to start a hybrid, but, um, we have people from all over the country and the world. Now we have somebody from London. Uh, so that’s five o’clock on Sundays. And, um, uh, the information is on the website, holy city, dc.org. If anybody was specifically interested, they could just email me at my name, rich ta***@***il.com. And I can point them in the right direction to get connected to whatever it is. Um, it’s a nascent group and we’re trying to grow something, a different type of spirituality in the world, and we’d be happy for anybody who’s interested.
Speaker 1 00:49:50 Okay. All right. Perfect. And that’s, Tafel T a F E L, right?
Speaker 2 00:49:53 Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:49:55 All right. Perfect. Well, I think that’s a good place for us to close, and I just want to say thank you for giving so freely of your time and your expertise on this and your passion as well. And, um, I think it’s helpful for me and I hope it’s helpful for the listeners too. Rich. Thank you.

Speaker 2 00:50:11 Thank you. My pleasure. There was nothing more exciting than seeing you preach the gospel to me.
Speaker 1 00:50:16 I love it. That’s great. All right, everybody, we’re going to close it. There have a wonderful day. Be good to each other, and always remember to aim your light. You have been listening to refractive podcast, and this is Johnny G. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, do me a favor, give it a share on social media, or if you’re in the podcast app, give it a rating. If you’re on YouTube click, like it really does make a difference in the search results. I am a speaker, coach and facilitator based in Washington, DC, but I work in person and remotely with people who are ready to step with clarity into their most authentic life. If I can be of service, reach out to me, Jo****@****************ng.com have an amazing day. Be good to each other and always remember- Aim Your Light.

College, finances, unquestioned family obligations, status, home ownership, status. These are common goals that we are conditioned to respect and strive for because…well, because it’s just “common knowledge” that they build a good life. Brian Bogert, Human Behavior Coach, Entrepreneur, Philanthropist, and all-around inspiring guy joins Refractive to discuss the auto-programming of expectations that is so common (and painful) in today’s world. Has your life been focused on what really matters to you? Have you weighed your life goals against your values, or are your goals based on an unexamined fear of struggle if certain concepts of “security” and “happiness” aren’t checked off? Have you been willing to look at painful experiences as springboards to joy, freedom, peace, growth, and beauty? This episode is all about honoring the guidance your highest self gives as the absolute shortest path to a life of serenity, fulfillment, security, and joy.

Find more information on Brian Bogert and his challenge to impact 1 billion lives by 2045 by visiting brianbogert.com

For similarly-themed content, try these episodes: Making Peace with Our Dark Side and The Ancient Truths of Acceptance and PLINKO

Find an audio transcript via software below- please excuse any errors from the software’s transcription.Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of refractive. My guest today is Brian Bogart and he is a human behavior and performance coach. He’s a speaker, a business strategist, top sales, professional, and philanthropic leader through his own growth journey. He’s built a life around helping people become their best self by embracing radical authenticity and this revolutionary strategy that he’s developed to work with his clients. It embraces pain to avoid suffering, and he helps individuals and companies break beyond their normal to achieve success, freedom, and authenticity. So I’m really happy to have you on the podcast today, Brian, that bio is, it could be the bio for this podcast. It is a, it’s my jam. It gels with me. And I’m excited to talk with you.
Speaker 1 00:01:34 Well, dude, I’m happy to be here. I mean, every single time you and I connect, we connect. Right. And, uh, and I think there’s a major alignment here. So I’m just happy to be here and you build a platform that I get to pour my soul into your audience and man, that’s what it’s all about.
Speaker 0 00:01:46 Yeah, for sure. You know, I’ve talked on lots of episodes already about the concept of expectations that expectations were, were programmed with these societal expectations that I need to break a six figure income, and I need to own a house by the time I’m X age and I need to get married and I, I need this stuff. And if I don’t, my life doesn’t feel right. It just doesn’t feel, it feels like I’m faulty, like I’m broken. And so much of my own journey has been learning, which of those expectations feels nourishing and feels good for me. And which of those expectations. I’ve just kind of blindly accepted over the years. And I know that’s a big part of the work that you do, your clients. And so what are some of your find foundational thoughts on this whole idea of the pain of expectations that don’t belong to us?
Speaker 1 00:02:46 Yeah. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna riff on this for a second. Cause there’s two places I want to take it. The first is how do we develop into this and where do we as individuals start and where do the narrative start to shape us throughout time? And then lastly, it’s like, what does the narrative cause us to do? Which is to chase the what? So we’re going to unpack those both quickly. Feel free to interrupt me at any point, if you’re like, Hey, let’s talk about that further. But um, this, this is just my view, right? This is not mean that this is the way that it is. This is how I view the world. Um, you know, I genuinely believe that we are born as our absolute brightest shining light, our most authentic selves. Yes, period, and a story. We are born as our brightest authentic burning light that we will ever be, frankly.
Speaker 1 00:03:32 And anybody who has kids or has been around kids knows that the rawness, the genuineness, like the, the lack of boundaries, the vulnerable, authentic self shows up right out of the gate. And then what happens? Parents, teachers, coaches, employers start layering on all these narratives around who they should be, who we should be, right? You should do this. You shouldn’t do that. You should be this. You shouldn’t be that you should chase this amount of income. You shouldn’t chase that amount of income. You shouldn’t be happy. You should focus on the external definition of success. You shouldn’t feel you should shut everything down and show up with a smile on your face because that’s what the world tells us to do. Right. And then what happens, right? We all of a sudden start to become literally this armored shell of all these narratives that are wrapped around us and who we once were is we’re just like an empty vessel of who we once were. Yes. Right? Because we ended up chasing this many of those things that we don’t necessarily even necessarily feel like you said, align with who we are. But if this is how we need to be in the world, let’s do it. Right. And then what happens? We wake up one day and we realize we’re miserable. Yeah. All of those should right. Should in and of itself is a shame based word because it implies that whatever you’re doing isn’t good enough. Yes,
Speaker 0 00:04:52 Exactly. So I’m
Speaker 1 00:04:53 On a mission to remove the word should from our language, because it has very few actual positive applications. And instead I want us to start saying, what could I do differently? What would I do in that scenario? Let’s replace should with code and wood. And let’s start focusing on allowing ourselves to get there. Because the only way we get back to that bright burning light is once we’ve shed, the layers of everything in the world is put on top of us. The what is, what we are trained to chase, what the narratives that I just outlined, house, job, car spouse, amount of money, amount of external success. We chase the what, because that’s what we are conditioned to do by parents, coaches, teachers, employers. Exactly. Chase the what? Because that’s what the world will accept you for. Think about it too. What is one of the first questions someone asks you when they first meet you?
Speaker 0 00:05:49 What do you want to be when you grow up or, Oh, I’m thinking about kids as kids. Sorry. Yeah. No, no, but, but that’s great question, right?
Speaker 1 00:05:58 That is what do you want to be when you grow up, it automatically forces this linear thinking and then once you’re a grownup, it’s
Speaker 0 00:06:04 You do? Yeah. Yeah. It’s no longer what do you want to be when you grow up? Yeah. And almost never is it? Who are you? And even when you ask someone who they are
Speaker 1 00:06:19 9% of the time, they’re going to answer with what they do, right? Yeah. We’ve lost clarity on who we are. And we chased the what and again, no different than what I just talked about. That bright burning light with the sheds, we chase the, what we may accomplish the what. And then one day we wake up and realize we’ve lost the who in the process and we’re miserable. We’re stuck. We’re afraid. We’re insecure. We have all these negative emotions bubbling up. But, but I can’t, I can’t step out and talk about that because the world told me I can’t, and I can’t actually fight to become who I want to be because the world has told me, they’re not going to accept me for who that is. Right. And so what’s super important around expectations is we’ve got to realign with who you are, who each individual person is. And the what’s in the world just happened to become that much more powerful because they’re a manifestation of the who versus the, who becoming a manifestation of the, what, which is where people lose themselves.
Speaker 0 00:07:12 Yeah. And we gotta be gentle with ourselves because what you just talked about, it’s, it’s an entire, it’s the combination of all human society that has built up this programming. And so it’s, it’s normal. It’s, it’s expected that we, that we lose ourselves. Right? It’s, it’s, it’s understandable that we lose ourselves through the process of growing and developing. Uh, you know, because what I find is when you ignore that gentle voice, that small voice of intuition inside you over time, it gets quieter and quieter and quieter. And although it never goes away, it’s always there. It just fades into the background and then you have to proactively listen to it. So there’s the reprogramming that we do. You and I do so much with clients and that, that, that it’s really the key to freedom in life is learning to really acknowledge what your insights are telling you is the path to fulfillment. Passion, love
Speaker 1 00:08:21 It’s everything. Yeah. It’s everything. I mean, that’s, that’s literally what it is. I mean, you and I have talked, I mean, I’m on a mission to impact a billion lives by 2045. And what that means is that I want to help reduce the level of suffering on this planet, right? The suffering that exists is a whole lot of reasons connected to what we just talked about in the very beginning it’s expectations versus who people really want to be. And so the only way that we can reduce the level of like, when we reduce the level of suffering, it’s the only way, frankly, that joy, freedom and fulfillment can start to exist in people’s lives. If the only way, frankly, that people can believe that they can be authentically who they are and that the world will receive them and appreciate and support them for exactly who they are.
Speaker 1 00:09:01 And Oh, by the way, vulnerability and authenticity are the glue that binds human connection. It’s not a surprise that we suffer at the level that we do with the amount of polarization and pull, pull information on any given topic these days, because all it does is separate us. We all desire human connection, vulnerability and authenticity are the glue that binds it. So impacting a billion lives is literally about reducing level of suffering so that we can have all those things. I know what it’s like to suffer. I’ve been there. I know what it’s like to lose who I am and wake up one day, making a ton of money and being miserable and who I am. I also know what it’s like to silence my own voice because the world has told me that it’s not good enough. And I know what it feels like on the other side, I know how bad that feels and nobody deserves to feel that way.
Speaker 1 00:09:43 And on the flip side, I, over the last period of time have chased 100% authentically who I am for the first time in my entire adult life. In the last 18 to 24 months, I’m happier. I’m more fulfilled. I’m having more fun. I’m more free. And I feel more like myself than I have in my entire life. And it just so happens that again, all the what’s in my life are blowing up compared to all the force and effort I had to put into what’s in my prior period of life. Um, it’s, it only further proved the point that I’m on this planet to do, which is to help people understand who they are and love and appreciate themselves and love and appreciate others for who they are.
Speaker 0 00:10:20 My listeners, uh, they’re going to roll their eyes. But I mentioned this person again, because they talk about her on so many of the episodes, but one of my favorite spiritual teachers, her name is Byron Katie. And she, uh, she has this process to help people uncover, uh, the truth in order to fall in love with what is, and so she asks over and over, is it true? Is it true? So we think about like, if I don’t get my kid into this, pre-K my kid is not going to have the best chance at life. And when say like, wait, is that, is it true? Maybe it is like, let’s just, but let’s not assume let’s peel back the layers and let’s just look, is it true that your, that your kid won’t have the best life if he doesn’t go to this school. And you know, a lot of times when we really think for ourselves and feel for ourselves, the answer is no. What I believed was true, what I believed was right, is not it’s somebody else’s truth. And that’s great for them. These things money’s not bad, right. Pursuing them.
Speaker 1 00:11:34 No, no, no. By no means did anything I see have anything to do with negative on money?
Speaker 0 00:11:38 No. These goals that society to give, they’re not bad, you know, just to make sure that the mix of the goals you accept is right for you.
Speaker 1 00:11:47 Correct. That’s it is that people chase the external definition of success, very rarely do they success based on their terms. I mean, that’s one of the first questions I ask people in my first couple of sessions working with people is how do you define success? Yeah. Right. And it’s just interesting because a lot of people haven’t even thought about that. How do I define success? Yeah. And I think what’s beautiful about what you just shared about the question I’m going to, I know nothing about her, frankly. And I feel like already, I’m drawn to her work and want to do some, uh, do some research. So by all means, please we’ll have to connect afterwards. You can share that with me. But yeah. But the interesting thing about that as well is I didn’t use to believe this, but I believe it holistically. Now, those that truly become free.
Speaker 1 00:12:30 Those that truly get to the next level are the ones that recognize that there are two narratives constantly telling us stories, constantly lying and constantly often conflicting with each other. And that’s our intellectual narratives and our emotional narratives. Many of us are hard wired to operate dominant. On one side, I am dominant on the intellectual side and it was only further conditioned with an early childhood injury, which we may talk about today. We may not. But the point is, is that it really honed. Like I went up in my head, I created mental toughness. I created an intellectual narrative. And when I was experiencing the amount of physical pain that I did, I also shut off emotional pain that I didn’t realize until well into my thirties. Yeah. And those that truly unlock and go to the next level. And this is a lot of the work that I do as well is not just asking, is it true?
Speaker 1 00:13:20 But asking is my intellectual narrative true? Is my emotional narrative true? Are they both true? Yeah. Is one lying to me are both lying to me. And for those individuals to really clearly identify with who they are, we’ve got to think about our thinking. Yeah. Feel our feeling, think about our feeling and feel our thinking. We have to understand that it’s not just one narrative that we’re asking the question about. And in this particular case, with that example, if my kid gets into the school, you’re way to have an intellectual and emotional narrative around that. And you’ve got to balance and regulate between those two, because emotionally you may just believe that this is the best chance and intellectually, you can talk yourself down and say, yep, this is an external narrative, but I still feel it’s right for my kid. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so that may cause you to go ahead, despite the fact that you recognize which part is a lie and make that decision. So I think that’s just one pivot I want to do extend on because that’s what I think a lot of people don’t pay attention to is that we actually have two really strong narratives. If we’re listening.
Speaker 0 00:14:17 Yes. It’s beautiful. And you know why just so many religions focus on contemplation meditation, quiet time. It’s because the answer to anything you could ever need to know is in the stillness, right? If you get still enough, you can get the answer to any question it’s true. It might not be something I can do right now in five minutes. It may take years of honing that skill. Right. But it, the whole process is to on program, this muffle that we put on top of that guidance. And it’s not something you can do overnight.
Speaker 1 00:14:56 No it, and that takes, I mean, I think so meditation and stillness, I mean that it’s years in practice before you even start to really feel the effects of it where you actually, I think can get answers. I think some people can shorten that curve, but I know for me, it was, it was probably 24 to 36 months before I actually started getting a heightened level of consciousness, even in my awake state and being able to turn to stillness, to connect my mind and my body and elevate myself out of my mind and my body in a way that I actually could let wisdom flow through me versus having to access knowledge. Right. I mean, it took time and by the way, I’m still practicing it. That’s one of my greatest focuses right now is I actually have a meditation coach that I work with once a week because my singular greatest focus is that if I continue to elevate down this path on a high, highest level of consciousness, I mean, game over, like whatever I’m going to want to manifest into this world, I’m going to chase it. And I don’t say that to impress. I said to him precipice up on the point, the answer to everything you need in life can be found in stillness.
Speaker 0 00:15:52 Yes. I mean, 100%. And I look at the path that kind of led me to where I, to what I’m doing today. Right. Which is stepping outside of the corporate environment, which I was a part of for 16 years, um, moving to the middle of Maine, um, in a cabin, right? Like in near isolation. Um, but all of this stuff, you know, going on a two month road trip, uh, when my lease ended and using my rent money to, to, to, to pay for that. So I could go explore like all these national parks and whatnot, like all of this stuff, these are things that I would never have considered before. The idea of not having an address, putting my stuff in storage and just going, driving until I’m tired of driving and finding a hotel night after night for two months. Like, that’s something that sounds crazy town like what, but that’s what my inside told me to do. It was like, there’s this opportunity for you to take advantage and to take something that some people might see as a stressful or anxious and weave it into something that’s good for you. Beautiful.
Speaker 1 00:17:03 And you probably, you probably found a lot of yourself on that trip.
Speaker 0 00:17:06 Absolutely. Absolutely. But it, it takes the willingness to challenge the conventions, you know, challenge the conventions.
Speaker 1 00:17:16 Well, and Oh, by the way, I mean, that, that goes into one of the concepts that, you know, I, I preach on it’s this idea of embracing pain to avoid suffering. What is that? When you talk about challenging the narratives, when you talk about challenging, like what it is, it’s, you know, the world literally tells us to reduce eliminate or avoid pain, right. I’m telling you that the world is absolutely wrong. Okay. So what’s interesting about this. Let’s let’s first understand what pain and suffering are quickly. And then, and then I’ll tell you what the concept is. And then if we want to, we can unpack the steps to teach people how to do it. If not just the concept alone will typically spark thought for folks. For sure. So pain is literally defined as short-term intermittent direct cause from something and alleviated. And he owed wants that direct causes are removed.
Speaker 1 00:17:54 Then as you know, human beings, we screw everything up. We put adjectives in front of it like acute and chronic, well, acute maintains the definition. Chronic inherently changes it because it implies that it’s no longer short-term, it’s no longer intermittent. And it persists even up to under direct causes removed. Now we call it chronic pain. Cause I think in a lot of ways, it makes us feel better because suffering sounds a whole lot worse. But if it’s not, if it’s unrelenting, doesn’t go away. After the direct causes are removed, it’s not chronic pain it’s suffering. Okay. And we don’t want to admit that suffering exists, particularly when it’s a direct result of our choices. Yes. Right. Whereas pain gets tons and tons of attention because we feel it it’s real time. And our tendency is to avoid it, which is the natural evolutionary response to survive, which we no longer need to rely on as much in today’s world.
Speaker 1 00:18:37 Okay. So let’s, let’s, let’s understand this for a second. We can embrace the pain of hitting the gym for 30 minutes a day to avoid the suffering and make some pains of sedentary lifestyle. There you go. We can embrace the pain of a difficult conversation with a loved one or spouse to avoid the suffering of remaining in a Loveless marriage. That’s going to end in divorce or frankly being stuck in a marriage. When we know we want divorce, yes, we can embrace the pain of a difficult or a, of the fit. Our kids are sure to throw by having them put down their mobile device at the dinner table to avoid the suffering of years, lost, meaningful connection and conversation that we’ll never get back. We can embrace the pain of walking away from having an address and exploring the country over a two month period to help find ourselves to avoid the suffering of not ever knowing what that experience would be or what you would actually find in that journey.
Speaker 1 00:19:20 Yeah. Right. And the list goes on, right? It’s just that we often pay attention to like where and how do we do these things? And you know, we always talk about, get uncomfortable, uh, or, you know, get comfortable getting uncomfortable, which is a part of it. But discomfort is kind of the 5k to pain’s marathon. And so we’ve got to pay to the fact that like, it’s those little moments of discomfort that help us condition ourselves to be able to also turn into pain. But I’ll tell you this definitively, I believe that we all must choose our pain or our suffering will choose us. And a lot of the suffering come from those external narratives and expectations that have been placed upon us versus us honoring who we are. And so we can all choose our pain or our suffering can choose us.
Speaker 0 00:19:59 Yes, boy, that’s so powerful. And you know, pain is, it’s a check engine light. It means something needs attention. And it’s a gift. It’s a gift. You know, when my leg is broken, it hurts like hell, but it’s telling me stop. Don’t put weight on it. Right. You know what I mean? Pain is always like that. It’s, it’s, it’s, there’s, uh, an Axiom in, uh, there’s an Axiom in the recovery community. Uh, and you want to talk about avoiding pain, right? Like compulsion is based in pain avoidance. Yeah, exactly. But there’s this Axiom that says that, uh, pain is the touchstone of spiritual growth. And you know, I mean, tell me about it. You got to dig into that pain. You got to peel back those layers. If you want to understand what’s making yourself tick and, uh, and how to grow, what has the process been like as you kind of have observed people, you work with digging deeper into the pain.
Speaker 1 00:21:08 They almost instantaneously feel lighter. Once they’ve actually been able to understand the root of the pain and they address the pain and they move and embrace through the pain, they really do eliminate suffering. I’ll give you an, I’ll give you a couple examples. Um, uh, one, I’m working with somebody very recently over the course of the last couple of months, and I’m not going to give details of their life, but I will tell you that they had some very, very dark, dramatic, traumatic things happen in their life. Stuff that like you can’t write novels or movies about. I mean, it’s, it’s almost the worst of the worst that could happen to people and what they were exposed to over repeated chariots period of time, they literally have verbalized that they were like a crab on the bottom of the ocean building up a wall of shells around themselves because they just didn’t feel like they wanted to one put that burden on others.
Speaker 1 00:22:00 They didn’t feel validated in their feelings. And they felt like they’re just always going to be this way that they’re always going to suffer. They’re always going to be miserable. They’re not going to have these things in a period of three months. And I’m talking like six to seven major, major events over the period of about a decade in formative years for this person. Um, so many things had been, uh, really covered for this individual, but they couldn’t be vulnerable. And they were carrying this heavy weight called armor. They thought that they were protecting themselves. But really what was happening is the weight of the armor was crushing this person and Berking them over time. Okay. So we’ve worked through really understanding what the root of some of these things were. And in a matter of 30 to 45 days, this person vocalized almost 90% of these things to the people that mattered to the ones that were closest.
Speaker 1 00:22:50 I mean, when I say that they’d never told anybody up to and including their spouse and their parents didn’t know some of this stuff. I was the very first person that in 30 years, this person has chosen to speak with about this stuff. She took action on these things because she knew what suffering looked like, right? And went into action to alleviate the burden of the weight that these things were causing on their insights just by vocalizing it. And just by mere vocalizing it, she felt instantaneously lighter. Now that doesn’t mean the work is done. That’s where it gets misleading. It’s not just about vocalizing something. You still have to put in the work to heal. But what happens in those scenarios when you don’t vocalize, when you don’t feel you don’t heal. So that wound that is there at best will scab over, but it’s going to abscess.
Speaker 1 00:23:38 It’s going to cause issues in your life. It’s going to manifest in different ways until you actually rip off the scab, get to the root of what’s on clean it up. That wound won’t heal it won’t scar over. Yeah. And so you’re going to constantly have an open wound that you’re going to be exposed to until you put in the work to feel in order to heal. So that’s just one example of many, but people feel lighter. They feel more free. They feel more like who they are and they don’t have to carry this external weight just because you can carry. It doesn’t mean it’s not heavy.
Speaker 0 00:24:06 Right? Exactly. Exactly. You know, we don’t have to live that way. No, we’ve it’s. How can I say this? You know, pain is mandatory, but suffering is optional and, and we don’t have to live a life of grinding and struggle internally. Uh, you just don’t have to, there is another option you can, if that’s, if that’s, if that’s how you get through and there doesn’t seem to be another way and you don’t have another idea or other resources, look, that’s fine. If that’s your path, that’s your path, but it’s not required. There is a way. And, uh, uh, it’s about, it’s about digging deep and understanding. What’s making you tick and you know, are these things, are these beliefs that we have? Are they true? Are they coming from me or are they, are they telling me a lie? You know, they telling me a lie. So when we look at this concept of living a life, that’s not necessarily authentic.
Speaker 0 00:25:22 When I talk to people, I’ve talked to people, informally, not clients and stuff, but I’ve talked to people informally and said, yeah, but like, do you really need your next job to be more like, to make more money? Like what if, what if you made 10 or $15,000 less? Like, wouldn’t you still be like, absolutely not. Like I don’t leave a job unless I earn more money. And, and so it’s one thing to say, yes, let’s question this programming, let’s question these beliefs. But so many people can’t see a path to even believing that their thoughts might not be accurate. So what, what are some ways that you have seen that are successful in helping people kind of unprogrammed these beliefs?
Speaker 1 00:26:12 Yeah. So I think just like pain perspective points as to what’s important. So I think bringing perspective into people’s worlds, whether it’s done by a coach or they seek it themselves, either one is effective. I think a lot of times people don’t, they feel silly to feel the way they feel. They feel like not worthy to feel the way they feel. And it might be I’m in a miserable job. It is what it is, but I need to pay the bills. They dismiss it. Right. So it’s like challenging the, not the thought process and the narrative. I will tell you for the one client that I just talked about, she literally believed it was impossible for her to feel joy. He literally believed that it was impossible to feel human connection and a bond with someone. Yeah. And in a matter of 30 to 45 days, by working through it, she literally has said, I just proved the impossible possible.
Speaker 1 00:27:00 There you go. Now the techniques can be different for each person. And it depends on the type of pain, the type of things that they’re experiencing, the narratives that they’re buying into. But I think on the professional front, there’s a couple ways to look at it. I’m not a believer that everybody can align their purpose and their passion with their profession. But I am a believer that people don’t need to exist in a toxic culture. There’s a lot of toxic cultures. And so some people are like, well, yeah. I mean, it’s not what I care about. So I just go and I’m going to endure all this just unnecessary berating in this toxic shame-based culture that I operate in because it pays the bills. Yeah. Well, that’s typically an emotional trigger. That’s keeping them stuck. So what I find is most people who have some thing that they need to challenge from a narrative perspective, the perspective that I’ll offer to those individuals, because I think perspective points is that what’s important is it’s typically not a combination of the wrong strategy or tactics.
Speaker 1 00:28:00 Most of the time, it’s a combination of emotional triggers, behavioral pattern and environmental conditioning that keeps people in that self-defeating place. Yeah. So is it that you feel unworthy of being treated with respect in your workplace, right? Is there a shame or a worth issue that you need to work through? Are you afraid of what’s next? I think you’ve got to really tap into what are the emotions that are keeping you there, understand what the root of it is. And oftentimes it has nothing to do with what’s right in front of you. It’s something way back in your past, in history that you’ve been conditioned into that you don’t even see. And so you just chalk it up to be like, Oh, well I guess my spouse is upset at me because I loaded the dishwasher wrong. When in reality it has nothing to do with loading the dishwasher wrong. It has something to do with how you’ve talked to her about how that triggers a relationship with a grandfather from 40 years ago, I realized that was like really hard sidebar when I just gave the dishwasher example. But my point is like, that’s what people don’t pay attention to. They don’t pay attention to, and they deny their own internal voice. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:28:54 Because sometimes, you know, if you ask someone, well, is it about a self-worth issue? Is it about a shame issue? Their honest answer is no, but that’s because, um, through coping and, and healing and scabbing over, like, we may not recognize that it really is a self-worth issue. Like, and it takes someone that you trust someone who’s who’s, who’s who you believe is holding your agenda for you to say, I got to tell you, you say no, but here are the two or three red flags that pop up for me that, uh, you know, maybe this deserves a second look. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:29:39 No, I think you’re exactly right. And that’s why I say it’s not just a coach. I, in fact, I think there’s many people on this planet who aren’t even ready for a coach. They haven’t put in the work to get to the point where a coach is going to be as effective as possible. But I do think that you need to find that outside influence. So it might be a spouse. It might be a parent. It might be a good friend. It might even be a kid depending on, you know, the relationship and the ages. Uh, but I do think that perspective is important. So seek that external perspective. Uh, and then the other thing that I, I have found, and I, I know that you just, you, you gave this example. I very rarely ask somebody whenever possible a yes or no question when I’m working with them in a coaching capacity.
Speaker 1 00:30:14 And the reason is right. Had somebody asked me if I dealt with shame, I would have said no. And two things would have happened. One, I would have not been aware to it. Cause I wasn’t for a long time in my life. And then two, I would have been defensive to it. Cause I’m like, what do you mean? Like, no, I’m not suffering from shame and worth. What are you talking about? Right. And so I think that information gathering, and so this is really more speaking to those people, those external sources, right? Coaches, mentors, teachers, whatever, ask questions to gather enough, enough information. So that it’s not even a question as to whether or not they’re experiencing worth shame. You’ve got such a body of information to be able to point to those red flags without ever having to put them on the defensive. And if you just embed the language appropriately, people start to come to their own conclusions. They’re like, Oh, I haven’t even thought about that. Yeah. Then all of a sudden it translates to action. It’s more intrinsic. The trust is super important though. And I’m really happy that you said that. Um, but I find that often, if you ask somebody about an emotional state they’re in just as a yes or no question they’re going to, they’re literally going to answer no more times.
Speaker 0 00:31:20 Yes. Yeah, it does. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:31:21 And I know, you know that, so that wasn’t to you, that was to everybody listening. I love it.
Speaker 0 00:31:25 I love it. Um, so Brian, kind of, as we reach, uh, the last part of the episode today, I want to kind of give some nuggets for the listeners to walk away. You know, people who, uh, would like to have some quiet time to consider what are some, um, obstacles that I’ve built for myself. What are some beliefs that I may have accepted that are no longer serving me, maybe at one time they were, but they’re not today. And you know, from, for me, I’d like to ask you to make, uh, to give some advice and some suggestions on how they can work on this. Um, in their own quiet time for me, I love journaling and writing questions, you know, uh, when it comes to my family life, what do I believe needs to happen? Right. Something as open as that. And then just write, write for 10 minutes.
Speaker 0 00:32:18 Right? And if you get to a point where you don’t know what to write next, just keep writing the last sentence you wrote over and over and over again until another sentence comes to your mind and keep writing. And then once you’ve finished, go back and read it. And, you know, question that and maybe talk it over with another member of your family, a spouse or, or someone who’s trusted in saying, does any of this ring true? Like, does any of this need a second look? And I feel like for me, journaling is how I got the guts to leave. My corporate career journaling is how I decided to become a coach. Journaling gave me all those answers because it allowed me to pour myself in those quiet moments, into one intention, which was, uh, uncover the inner message. And so that’s what I’d like to share with people. If they believe that you’re holding yourself back, you’re, you’re accepting expectations that, that, that aren’t authentic to you write about it. And you might be surprised at what comes up. Um, what do you have to offer with people about how to dig deeper in that?
Speaker 1 00:33:25 Yeah, so I have a bunch of things, but I’ll keep it really short and sweet on this one. I’m I will second your journaling. Uh, I’m a big fan of journaling. I think that sometimes just getting it out of your body and mind is really, really cathartic. And oftentimes if you don’t have somebody that you can talk to or someone that you can trust your journal, you can trust. And so, because it’s yours, it’s your thoughts, your own intention, and you get determined. What’s written on that page. And so I think I do agree with journaling. I’m going to also say though, I think that open-ended journaling is also a really effective way. So like you talked about a really primed, like prompted type of journaling, answering specific questions. That’s very effective. And I appreciate that, but I also think that sometimes just sitting down and writing, or if you are feeling sad, upset, frustrated, scared.
Speaker 1 00:34:16 I don’t care what the emotion is. Even happy. Just write about it. What made you feel that way? What, like where, and how has this manifested in your life? Where does this pattern repeat itself? Like just literally just write open-ended about it. I think that can be very effective. The other thing that I’m going to say, and this is really real right now for a lot of people, because we were all knocked out of autopilot a year ago. Right. And all of a sudden it’s like we’re having to reclaim back some influencing control in our lives. So many people. And because we were operating, operating on autopilot, we also were operating the unconscious. What we know is that the mind processes, 11 million bits of information per second, we’re only consciously or about 40. So what that says is we’re largely led by the gut unconscious.
Speaker 1 00:34:54 So it’s no surprise that so many people feel like victims and like life is fate and that they have no influence or control over their destinies. But how often would you get up in the morning and go through the exact same morning routine, get to the office. And you don’t even remember the first two hours of your day because it was just so routine. I, yeah. Now is a great opportunity to take toll and literally make two lists. One list is what are the things that bring me joy? What are the things that keep my, my energy up? What are the things that, you know, make me feel inspired, desired, make me feel like I’ve got something to live for that are the people that are complimentary around me. The sources of information, whether news or whatever that I put through my body that make me feel good.
Speaker 0 00:35:34 Yeah. And we feel good about myself and everything, right? Everything, everything like just
Speaker 1 00:35:38 Write it all down, right? What are all the positive, good influential sources in your world? Now the opposite to that is what are the areas that are toxic? What are the areas that are negative? What are the areas that make me feel depleted? What are the areas that make me feel unappreciated and the people and the sources literally write down those two lists. You know, what it feels like to feel good and you know, what it feels like to feel not so good. So this list shouldn’t be difficult other than it’s going to cause you to be really honest. Cause you might have people on this list that are your family members. You might, your job might be the greatest source of stress and toxicity in your life. And that causes you to end up to have a level of awareness to say, how do I take action on this?
Speaker 1 00:36:13 Because the golden is once you have these two lists move as many to the positive list as possible, and try to eliminate or remove as many of these, that aren’t positive sources in your life, you can’t get rid of all of them. Right. I just, I give that right out of the gate. Like there might be reasons why you can’t get rid of all of them, but you can at least remove as many as possible. So that is a tool that I use with lots of people because the stuff that’s on this side of the list is probably more authentically you. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not to say that what’s over here or over here is good or bad. Don’t put a label on it. It’s how does it make you feel? Yeah. More or less might be 180 degrees opposite from my list. That’s okay. It’s not about me versus you. It’s about you knowing what is right for you. And so that’s what I would just, I would, I would give that as a very specific tool for people to walk through. Um, because it’s, it’s at least the starting place. If you have no idea who you are.
Speaker 0 00:37:01 That’s right. And I mean, just to give an endorsement to that, uh, that exercise, making that list of what brought me joy, which was brought about by the fact that several people asked me if I was happy and I couldn’t, I couldn’t answer. And making that list was the spark that changed my life. And so it is incredibly powerful. It is so powerful. Yeah, Ryan, I am so grateful for you, uh, to join the podcast today and share your experience and wisdom with the listeners. And um, if listeners want to learn more about you and discover more of your messaging and maybe contact you for some help, how can they do that?
Yeah. So Brianbogert.com is my website. It’s probably the best place it’s got all my social handles, which are at Bogut Brian. I’m pretty much all of them. Um, but you know, to impact a billion lives, we put out a lot of free content, cause I’m very intimately aware that 99.999999999% of those people will never pay us a dollar. Right. And I’m completely okay with that. And so what you’ll notice is there’s lots of content that gets pushed out. That’s genuinely, they’re just designed to help you. Um, one of those free pieces of content, if you’re interested, you can also go to no limits, prelude.com. And what it is is it’s a sync download of a lot of our coaching philosophies in questions to lead you on that own intrinsic journey, start teaching you how to embrace the pain, to avoid suffering. And by the way, that might be all you ever need from us.
And if it is take it and run, I have no expectation beyond that. If you are interested in some support beyond that, great, all of our contact information is on there. Um, but we only want to help and how we can, um, not just to be there to help. So raise your hand if it’s a, if it’s something that we can be with you on that journey. So whether you know who you are, whether you have no idea who you are and where to start or you’re somewhere in between this, this resource will be evaluated.
Awesome. And can you spell your website for listeners on the podcast?
Speaker 1 00:38:52 Yep. It’s www.BrianBOGERt.com 

All right. Perfect. Thank you, Brian. I, uh, I’m grateful for you being with us today and I hope you, uh, have an amazing rest of the week. Thank you, brother. You have been listening to refractive podcast and this is Johnny G. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, do me a favor, give it a share on social media or if you’re in the podcast app, give it a rating. If you’re on YouTube, click like, it really does make a difference in the search results. I am a speaker, coach and facilitator based in Washington, DC, but I work in person and remotely with people who are ready to step with clarity into their most authentic life. If I can be of service, reach out to me, Jo****@****************ng.com -have an amazing day. Be good to each other and always remember
Speaker 1 00:39:47 Aim your light.

Host Johnny Guidry is joined by Neena Perez of the Straight Talk, No Sugar Added podcast for an honest look at how eating for comfort after a tough day can become a crippling compulsion. This episode explores behaviors, causes, treatment, and and hope for people who feel stuck in a pattern of overeating.

Note: Johnny and Neena both face compulsive eating and speak to their experiences, but are not medical practitioners.

You can find Neena Perez’s podcast, Straight Talk, No Sugar Added here: https://straighttalknosugaradded.libsyn.com

For similar content, try Episode 13, Making Peace with Our Dark Side or Episode 8, From Addiction to Self-Acceptance

For more information on coaching services, visit RefractiveCoaching.com

Episode transcript via automatic software follows below; please excuse any inaccuracies in the software’s transcription.

Speaker 0 00:00:02 Ever since you can remember, you felt something in your chest telling you to move, to love, to speak, to try day after day. You pretend you don’t hear calling. Maybe you dismiss it as silliness or worse that it’s there ready for you, and it will wait for you. And as long as you, my name is Johnny G and I invite you to join me on a journey of awakening as we dare to embrace our light. This is refractive.
Speaker 1 00:00:46 Hi everybody, me and my friend, Nina Perez. We’re so excited to welcome you to a special collaboration of our two podcasts. So this is a really special event for us. We’re taking straight talk, no sugar added, and we’re adding some refractive to it. And we’re just going to make our own kind of a gumbo today. How are you doing Nina?
Speaker 2 00:01:09 I’m doing great. And this is so much fun. I have been looking to collaborate with you for some time, as you know, and I’m so glad we both found that time that we can do this. So this is going to be a lot of fun. And I think it’s going to be insightful too.
Speaker 1 00:01:23 Yeah. And this is a topic that I know has touched both of our lives pretty deeply. I, I know that my listeners will, will recognize the theme and I imagine yours will too.
Speaker 2 00:01:33 They will. I have another platform as well. Um, that’s called memoirs of a fat girl and that’s my health and wellness journey. So people know this about me. So this is going to be really fun. All right.
Speaker 1 00:01:46 All right. So, uh, everybody just, uh, to pull back the curtain, we are talking about compulsion’s and especially compulsive eating today and how it is so prevalent in our world. We’re taught as kids that eating for comfort is a way to cope. And, you know, I mean all the way down to that hard wiring of the brain, it feels good to nourish ourselves, right? It feels good to take care of that basic needs and it can run a muck and, and become a problem later in life. I know that was the case for me. And, uh, Nina. It was the case for you too. Would you like to talk about, um, how eating for comfort became a struggle for you?
Speaker 2 00:02:31 Yeah. Um, I mean, it’s still a struggle, right? I mean, it’s still an every day getting up, fighting it struggle. Um, so for me was I was abused as a child, so I couldn’t find comfort where I was, uh, wasn’t really being supported. So I didn’t realize that this was what I was doing as a child, but I got really addicted to sugar. So it was like sugar sandwiches and, you know, spoonfuls of sugar and candy and whatever. And I think that the hardest thing about having an addiction like food is that it’s so accessible and you need it, like you need it to survive. So, um, you know, for me, it was a way to cope with shame, um, with heartache, you know, feeling lonely. It just was, it was my, my friend.
Speaker 1 00:03:22 Yeah. You know, I mean, like if I walked down the street drinking from a bourbon bottle, you know, people are going to look, but if I walked down the street eating a burger, like nobody looks at all because it’s just, it’s so easy for compulsive eating, for eating, for comfort and pain to look normal. Right. It’s more society, it’s more accepted by society than some of the other compulsion’s,
Speaker 2 00:03:51 It’s so true. And, you know, I don’t know if you went through this, um, because I also hit it, you know? So I ate some of it in front of you. Yes. So you would think I was normal, you know, some of it in front of you, but don’t turn your back. Cause I’m out taking up stuff with me. Oh my gosh. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:04:14 Absolutely. And you know, uh, for me, um, while I wasn’t abused as a kid, uh, I grew up in a pretty conservative area and I was a gay kid. And, uh, back then in the, in the late eighties and early nineties, it just, it was just not okay. And I went to all boys schools and it was tough and I just didn’t know what to do with all of the pain and the rejection and the, the feelings that came up from that sense of emotional isolation and just like you, I, I ate. And then I hid when I ate the extra, I remember in college, I had a job at this restaurant and I took a piece of cheesecake in a to go box. And I went into the bathroom and sat in a stall in ADA, in the bathroom, like in the room.
Speaker 2 00:05:09 I totally get that. I totally get that. It’s so cool.
Speaker 1 00:05:14 Crazy. Like, I can’t even, you know, people who haven’t gone through, what we’re going through, can’t even understand how you do that. You know?
Speaker 2 00:05:25 I know. And, and what you’re saying, I can’t even see myself doing that. I totally relate. And I’m a chef by trade. Right. So I didn’t even realize that. Yeah. I, I, I’m an executive chef. I’m a director of a culinary operation. That’s what I do now. And so I’m around food quite a bit and good food. Cause we do a lot of farm to table and everything is from scratch and everything is delicious. And it’s like, yeah, I always have to control myself. I always have to be like, okay. Yep. I’m going downstairs to my office. And I leave because I have to remove myself. Yes. And I still fail. There’s days I fail, you know, like my, my son, my son was like, mom, where’s all the Reese’s peanut butter cups. I’m like, well, you left them there. I literally tire bag. He’s like, really? I’m like, really, because I have a compulsion. Right. So if I eat one and there’s three and four, I got to eat the three and four. It’s like, yeah. You know, it’s, it’s a daily struggle still.
Speaker 1 00:06:24 So before we go into the meat of this, where we talk about the role of pain and how, uh, you know, we use these compulsion’s to deal with it. Um, I want to mention kind of like my, uh, uh, bottom in the recovery community, we call it the bottom. Right. So, uh, were eating to mask. That pain led me. I, uh, ended up, um, in my early thirties at 400 and twenty-five pounds. And I had gotten to the point, I had been a corporate trainer and I got to the point where by standing in front of a room all day, facilitating, when I finished for the day, my feet would like throb and they would be huge and swollen. Um, and I had varicose veins and all of this. And, um, I would finish the day in order to room service, dinners, and things like that.
Speaker 1 00:07:21 And sit in my hotel and eat it. Um, I was on five prescriptions and including three blood pressure medicines, I was strapped to a C-PAP machine. Um, and I traveled for my job and I would get into those airplanes and God bless whoever had to sit next to me because I was taken up half of their seat, no matter what. And, uh, that was the life that I built for myself by using food to handle my pain. Um, until the day I was desperate enough to learn, to start processing the pain in a different way. Um, what was it like for you?
Speaker 2 00:08:00 You know, sometimes I wonder I get frustrated cause I wonder sometimes if I even hit the bottom yet, you know, because it’s still such a struggle. Um, but for me was I was having severe amounts of pain throughout my whole body. So I think the highest I reached is maybe close to two 60 and I’m only five, two. So there you go. Right. So, um, same thing with me, I would, I have the, the, you know, they give you that airplane belt extension that doesn’t really extend, you know, I was like, I still can’t clip this. This is a problem. So I was having pain throughout my entire body and I thought I had, um, you know, I went through like four different doctors. Nobody could figure it out. They thought I had lupus lines, disease, all that stuff. It ended up being that I, my body was rejecting certain things.
Speaker 2 00:08:48 I was eating, I was becoming intolerant because I was having in consuming so much of it. So like blue in a dairy, you know, things like that. My body was like, okay, that’s enough. And that’s what happened. Like my, my joints in my body were kind of breaking down and fighting against itself and I’m like, I have to do something I’m, pre-diabetic, I’m about to start on cholesterol, medication, diabetes, medication, like something has to change. Um, but honestly, Johnny, sometimes I feel like frustrated cause I’m like, did I hit bottom yet? Because sometimes I still struggle. And I guess maybe I’ll struggle with it all my life. Right, right. But there is a fear of going back up. I mean, I haven’t lost a lot, but there is definitely a fear I still have about 70 so pounds to lose. Um, and it’s a daily, daily fight. It’s a daily fight. So I got to get up with that mindset. Always, you can do this. Today’s a new day. You can do this.
Speaker 1 00:09:45 Yes, absolutely. It’s the same for me. In fact, last night I had, uh, two huge bowls of oatmeal before bed. I was hungry. It was like one, I just couldn’t do it. I had to make a second bowl and you know, I’m grateful it was oatmeal, you know, cause there’s the time of my life, where it had been two pizzas or two cakes, two things, ice cream, you know? So yeah. So, you know, when you and I were kind of, co-designing this episode, we talked about how, um, pain is actually a gift. Um, the reason we get a toothache is because there’s something that needs to be taken care of before it causes too much damage. And you know, we have this emotional pain that we go through and uh, you know, in our society we shove it down and we cover it with liquor or food or gambling or sex or work or cleaning the house or codependency or whatever it is. And so how do you think this emotional and mental pain that we have is actually helpful?
Speaker 2 00:10:54 I think that if you’re going to do work on yourself, like self care and really look at yourself, you need to have the pain points because otherwise you’re not paying attention, you know? Um, for me, right. It was depression, anxiety, right. That was my paint. Those were my pain points. And so I had to start changing my mindset and I only knew that those things were happening because I started to experience those things. Right. So as depression started to become a thing where I wouldn’t get out of bed and that kind of stuff, or I was in a room and I thought I was like gonna, you know, drown with like this anxiety. I realized, okay, something’s going on here? How do we deal with this? And that’s what I started doing is trying to work on myself, doing self care, looking at it in the eye and figuring out what it is. A lot of it, believe it or not came from, uh, unforgiveness. Yeah. You know, it came from that pain, you know, from what happened to me as a child and, and my life, my past. And then I’m like, you know, I have to deal with these issues. So to answer your question, that’s what it did, the depression and stuff. Being the pain point. I had to start taking care of myself. I couldn’t ignore it anymore.
Speaker 1 00:12:07 Yeah, that’s right, man.
Speaker 2 00:12:09 A whole box of Krispy Kreme donuts by myself, by myself. And especially if they’re warm
Speaker 1 00:12:18 Amateur, amateur, I would go to Buka to Beppo. Okay. You know, the family style restaurant on Friday at the end of the work week. And I would get to catering trays of pasta and have a cake. And that was my, that was my Friday night and the half that carb load. Oh my God. It would, uh, by the end of eating all of that in the period of like 20 minutes, um, my body would like shut down. I would just pass out the fat, the sugar, the carbs. I couldn’t handle it. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 00:12:54 So 20 minutes. So you’re a fast eater as well. Yeah. Cause I can eat.
Speaker 1 00:13:00 Oh yeah. It was a spectacle. It was a spectacle. And you know, like you mentioned, I find, you know, that pain, that pain is like a check engine light. And um, you can’t go out because, you know, for some people going through a death of a loved one or going through being fired or going through whatever, it’s just a part of life. And for other people, it spirals them into just something deeper. And, um, a good measurement for me was if I’m doing something I don’t want to do, right. I don’t want to eat until it hurts my body. I don’t want to eat until it shuts me down from chemical overload, but I was doing it and I couldn’t not do it. And there’s the there’s there’s the, the test for me is something is that’s the check engine light is something. So out of control is something so painful that I’m doing something I don’t want to do in can’t style. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:13:58 And it becomes something like, it’s like this love, hate thing. Right? It’s like, you do it, you hate that you do it, but you almost like love to do it. It’s like this weird thing. And then after you do it, and I dunno if that’s the way you feel, but I always feel so angry with myself that I let myself go there. You know, again, you know, like again, you know, so this is vicious, a self-sabotaging behavior, you know? And that’s what I think what I’m trying to figure out right. Is why do I keep self-sabotaging? You know, why don’t, I think I’m valuable enough to not keep sabotaging myself because I would never let you do that. If you were with me, I wouldn’t let you do that. You know, in my language. Yeah. Yeah. So I don’t know why we do that to ourselves. And I know we’re not alone in this. No. And
Speaker 1 00:14:52 You know, that was, um, that was the turning point for me. I was in, um, a drive-thru and it was the fourth drive-thru I went to in a row. There were, there were four fast food places next to each other. And, um, and as I was ordering five, six, seven items from each place, there was this, I remember, um, this inner voice that was like yelling. It’s like, why are you hurting yourself? Stop? And I ordered another thing and it’s like, why, why stop? Don’t you’re hurting yourself. And I ordered another thing and I’m eating from the last place I went to while I’m ordering the next thing. And you know, maybe not everybody listening has gone through those extremes that you and I are talking about, but any time we are doing something that is not good for our life. Right. Despite the fact that we don’t want to do it, it deserves attention, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:15:51 Yeah. I mean, and you’re right. I mean it, and I think you mentioned this earlier, too, it doesn’t have to be food. Right. It could be anything, right. People get addicted to opioids and they didn’t even realize they were addicted. Right. They just, you know, and I don’t know if you went through this as well or go through this. I always used to have that mentality. I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do it tomorrow. I’ll do it tomorrow. And then tomorrow is 20 years later and I’m still doing it tomorrow, you know? And I still didn’t get my life together. And it’s like, now I am 48 years old and you know, 70, 80 pounds overweight. And I’m just like, okay, are we still gonna wait for tomorrow? Cause you’ve been waiting for 20 years, girlfriend. I don’t think it’s coming. You know, it’s some point you just have to begin.
Speaker 1 00:16:36 Yeah. You know, that’s why those were recovery programs they just for today because they know tomorrow never comes. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:44 Isn’t that true? You’ll always, I think, I don’t know if everybody’s brain works like that. I just know that for me, you know, I, I make jokes about this on my show, on my other podcast. I’m always like, listen, I’m a fat girl. Let me tell you how fat girls think. You know, I said, I always wait until the first or the first of the week or the next day or the beginning of the year. Yeah. Yeah. That’s when, you know, instead of starting, like you just mentioned today, just starting today.
Speaker 1 00:17:12 That’s right. You know, um, one of, some of the notes that you and I were talking about that I, I think are so rich, you mentioned just earlier about why am I sabotaging myself? And you know, there’s so much around self-worth and, uh, boundaries and codependency and external validation and it just leads to this cycle of shame, you know? Um, what do you think about like, what are your thoughts on how shame applies to this? Oh man. Uh, you know, I just did
Speaker 2 00:17:50 A whole thing on shame because I realized as I’m growing up, as our wrote my book, as I’m doing all of this, that I had, that I realized there’s two types of shame, at least the way I see it. Right. It’s the shame of what people did to me. And I couldn’t do anything about it and I felt ashamed that it happened to me. Yeah. And then there’s also shame that I carried from things I’ve done, you know, things that I’ve done that I’m not proud of. And, you know, shame played a huge part in validating my, or feeling worthy, you know, because I did things that I’m ashamed of, you know? So it just makes me feel like almost like a beat up of myself. I, I was almost eating to beat myself up, even though I felt like I should be doing something better for me.
Speaker 2 00:18:37 Cause if it was like I said, if I was with you right now and you told me I’m going to go have that pizza or those two pies, I would say, absolutely not, not on my watch. Right. You know, because I would care about you and I care externally about people very much, but there’s something about, you know, just digging in and saying, you have to care about you too, girlfriend. You know, this is you’re, you’re important too. Um, so shame plays a huge part in how you feel and when you’re overweight, you’re now ashamed of being overweight. That’s the, yeah. Like, so now you’re beating yourself up for two things like the shame, your inside and your shame on how you look on the outside. So you’re pulling your shirt all the time. You’re fixing your sleeves. You’re you know, it’s, I mean, I’m sure you’ve experienced that. Right. Well, how do you feel about the shame playing a part in your
Speaker 1 00:19:27 Oh man, shame was a trigger for my eating. You know, I got to tell you if ever I had a layover, um, between flights, uh, I guarantee the first thing I went and did was found food because I was so ashamed of right, right of the seat, hurting me or taking up the space of another person and making them uncomfortable. I was just so ashamed. And anytime I had shame, if I, uh, I mean, I wasn’t dating very much by the time I got to that weight. But, um, uh, but earlier than that, when I was maybe 300 pounds and I still would go on a date from time to time, if the date didn’t go well, or if I felt I wasn’t seen as attractive enough after the date I would go eat. Right. Because shame was a trigger for me. Um, anxiety was a trigger for me. You know, anger was a trigger for Maumee too. Yeah. Oh my God. Tell me, tell me
Speaker 2 00:20:27 No. I mean, I don’t know what that is either. Right? That’s like, uh, I realized that I am an emotional eater. So I do eat when I go through emotions. If I’m very nervous. I E if I’m angry, like if somebody truly like betrayed me or pissed me off, I go eat, you know, um, if I’m bored, if I’m bored, you know, I’m like, okay, what is in the pantry? You know what I’m saying? Like, I need to find, Oh, maybe I’ll make some popcorn and do this and make that. I mean, you know, and I’m a chef, right? So if I’m bored, the first thing I’m doing is creating like these meals in my head, and then I’m out there looking for stuff, you know, I’ll even get to the point where I’m just like, you know, I’ll be back. I’m going to go to the store and get some ice cream.
Speaker 2 00:21:09 It’s like 10 o’clock at night. What am I doing? Go to the supermarket and get ice cream. You know, I don’t need that. You know, but yeah. Shame is, shame is huge and emotional eating is huge. And a lot of people don’t even realize they’re doing that. I don’t know if you do this, but I’m also sometimes a mindless eater. So I’m not even thinking, you know, I, I did an episode on how I ate an entire box and I know this is probably amateur, but I had a whole box of fig Newtons. They’re my favorites. Right. So I had this big family size pack and I put it next to me and I’m typing on the computer and I’m mindlessly eating. I get to the last one. And I’m like putting my hand in the box, like, Oh, shoot that. So my husband said, please tell me, you ate some of these guns. He goes, no, I hate fig Newtons. I’m like, Oh my gosh. I just ate a whole box by myself in one sitting.
Speaker 1 00:22:05 the sensible she just dropped. Yeah. You know? Oh my God,
Speaker 2 00:22:12 Gosh, this is real stuff. Right. I mean, so do you go through that as well? Like do you now, now that you’ve lost quite a bit of weight and you, I don’t think you mentioned how much you’ve lost, but now that you’ve lost that weight, do you find yourself sometimes going back to those old habits?
Speaker 1 00:22:32 Oh, for sure. So I am current, I am a compulsive eater. Like you said, I don’t know if that’ll ever go away. I lost 200 pounds. Um, and that was not through surgery or anything. It was through, it was through a recovery programs for compulsive eating. And, uh, and that was wonderful. But you know, like you said that you have about 70 pounds to go for me. My, my, my weight does go up and down. Um, right now I have about 80 pounds, uh, that I, I would need to lose if I got to my healthy, uh, doctor prescribed body weight. And, you know, Hey, I’m glad to be 80 pounds overweight as opposed to 200 and some odd pounds overweight. But, um, you know, I can live a normal life. I can get on a plane. I can do that. Now. I’m just a heavy guy, you know, I’m just like one of those heavy guys you see. Um, but I still, um, I still go through compulsive eating when I go to the store. Um, I need to stay away from the ice cream aisle because if I romanticize it for just a second longer than I need to, you know, I can, I can look at it for a, for a minute or two. Once I go longer than that, like I pull back, I’ve gone too far into the quicksand and I can’t get out and I’m going to, I’m going to spend $25 on junk food.
Speaker 2 00:23:54 Right. And are you a sugar addict as well? Do you like, are you like, are you more into like the, the fat and salty? Are you into more like the sweet sugar
Speaker 1 00:24:04 Sweets is my first is my first love, but I got to tell you, uh, you know, fat, fat and salty is a close second, you know,
Speaker 2 00:24:14 Sometimes combined, right. If I scribbled a little bacon on top, there you go.
Speaker 1 00:24:20 That’s right. So that’s, I’m still, I’m S I still face that. Um, I still face that, you know, I’m lucky because like my face doesn’t show it so much. So like on zoom, I’m like, Oh, look how cute I look. But, uh, you know, I still have like that. I still, I still have, uh, I’ll just say a little pear shaped going on,
Speaker 2 00:24:41 Hey, listen, you’re still 200 pounds less. Can I ask you though how you did that? Because that that’s huge. Right. So that’s an everyday battle. I’m sure that that is like getting up every day and making a decision. Right.
Speaker 1 00:24:55 So, yeah, it was, it was really through, um, through recovery. It was through recovery through 12 steps, you know, um, you know, and I, uh, it CA it came down to, um, it came down to identifying which foods and which behaviors, not just foods that I had a record of abusing. So I knew for example, that if I went through a drive-thru, even if my intention was to order a salad, even after losing a significant amount of this weight in recovery, if I went through a drive-through, there was a really good chance. Like I couldn’t escape without bingeing. Um, so I had to stop going through drive-throughs no matter what I could get out of the car and go into a subway or whatever, and I could order whatever I need, but drive throughs were off limit, you know, for a while, it was also eating in the kitchen was off limits because these were behaviors that once I started, I just knew it took a superhuman amount of strength for me to stop.
Speaker 1 00:26:16 Um, these are things I didn’t want to do, but I couldn’t stop it. Nonetheless. And then I made a list of the foods that I called them were noisy, noisy in my head. I knew that if I bought a and not all of them were unhealthy foods, um, but there were noisy foods and I just had to leave them alone. Like you said, remove your body from them. I had to say, I’m not going to buy fried food no matter what. And even if I go to somebody’s house and that’s what they served, I’m gonna have to face the courage to say, thank you so much. It looks great. And I, you know, I just can’t eat that. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And, uh, and so once things made that list, I had red light foods. I had yellow light foods, which, which I had a more likely record of not bingeing on, but I certainly could.
Speaker 1 00:27:08 Um, you know, and, and if, if, if anything was a red light food, no, I don’t eat dog food and I don’t eat that. You know, that’s good. My mantra, you know, I don’t cook and I don’t eat dessert. I don’t write dog food and I don’t eat pasta. I think I’m going to steal that. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just, for me, it’s not fun for me, dog. Food’s not good for me. And pasta is not good for me. It might be great for someone else. It’s not good for me. You know? So that’s what I would, if, if someone asks me for advice, I would say, make a list, go through, go through your whole history and make a list of what foods and behaviors feel out of control when you start them. And so just love yourself enough to say, I just won’t start it because if you don’t have to stop, and it doesn’t mean forever. It doesn’t mean forever for now. At this time in my life, I can’t buy ice cream. And am I willing to let go of ice cream, uh, for serenity, for serenity. And that means that if all my friends say, let’s go get yogurt today. It just means that I can go with them. But I know if I take one bite, I’m going to go to that one bite afterwards, and I’m going to buy ice cream. Right.
Speaker 2 00:28:30 And that’s something where you have to know your triggers. You have to know your triggers. That’s really good advice. And I’m going to take that advice. Actually, I never thought about like doing a node list and putting like the red, you know, foods like don’t touch these just don’t. I mean, that’s what I do now with like gluten, because I know gluten will, it hurts me for days and days when I take it. So I just don’t and you know, I have the same thing, Johnny. Like we went somewhere, I forgot me. And my husband went, Oh, we went to the mall and they had those soft pretzels, you know? And I’m like, Oh, let’s just get a few. Well, of course I paid the price for like four days. Right. But it’s like, why did I even do that? Like, I could have gotten something else. You know, they could’ve gotten a bowl of fruit. I could have gotten anything, but I just wanted the soft pretzels. You know what I mean? And I just, I have to do what you did. Like, I don’t eat dog food, so I don’t eat gluten or I don’t eat these. I just don’t know. That’s a, that’s a good way to look at it.
Speaker 1 00:29:27 Yeah. Yeah. And you know, like once for me, for me, I can only talk about for me. Um, once the sanity had returned to me for a period of time, then I could dip my toe in the water and, you know, uh, okay. Someone serving ice cream, um, I’m going to do a test after I eat this ice cream. Am I thinking about ice cream for the next three days? Yeah. If I am, then it’s still red light for me, you know? And that’s it. And sometimes, sometimes your, your, your list changes, you know, for me pizza, I can’t do pizza. Like even if I just have one piece of pizza, like I just can’t, I can’t, I will go back. Maybe not today, maybe two days from now. And then it’s off to the races.
Speaker 2 00:30:21 Right. And you’re, you’re talking real, you’re talking real stuff because that’s, that’s actually true. It’s almost like it just sits in the back of your head, literally talking to you every day and you can’t even get it out of your mind. Right. It’s almost like, why are we thinking about this still? You know, this is why every time I go down, down South, like whether it’s Florida or Georgia or anything, I cannot ever get Krispy Kreme donuts. Like, I’m not joking. I can literally inhale an entire dozen and probably more if you let me, you know, so when we go and, and as soon as they say, no, don’t even mention it. Don’t talk about it. You know, on top of the fact that it’s sugar, it’s also gluten and dairy, which I can’t have, you know, but I’m just like, so I don’t eat dog food. I, Tony Krispy Kreme donuts, Johnny, I’m taking it. I’m telling you
Speaker 1 00:31:12 Look, Nina. This is what I would say too. Like, can you love yourself enough to tell your family? No, no. To tell your FA you know, because Nina, have you, were you ever a smoker? Yeah. Okay. Do you still smoke? No. No. I spend 25 years. Okay. So you, but you know that if you had a cigarette today, you’d be fine. You can smoke one cigarette and they never touch it again. But then we’ll wait though. Tomorrow or three or four days from now. And you’d be like, well, I had a cigarette. It wasn’t a problem. Right. Problem. I’m fine. So the next time someone offers you a cigarette, you’re like, okay, it’s not a problem. And then during the conversation, you’re like, let me get a second one. Right. But then you’re fine. And you might go another couple of days and you’re like, see, it’s not a problem. I can take it or leave it now. But then all of a sudden you’re like, well, I don’t want to ask someone for cigarettes. Let me just buy a pack. And I can just keep
Speaker 2 00:32:08 Whoever. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:32:10 Yes. And the thing is that people look at heavy people and they think what a loser, why doesn’t this person try to like, take care of himself? What a gross, lazy person who doesn’t care about himself. But it’s not. It’s like smoking. It’s like, once you, that’s why that’s why diets don’t work for people like me. Because once I stop, once things feel like it’s not dangerous anymore. I’m like, Oh, it’s not. And then it’s not tomorrow that I fall off the truck. But all of a sudden two weeks from now, I don’t know how I ended up back where I, where I started, you know?
Speaker 2 00:32:48 Oh, you’re speaking it that’s, that’s so true. And I feel the same way. I’m glad you said that because diets don’t work for me either. I’ve had to change my whole life thinking the way I think in the way I feel about myself. Every time I started diet Johnny, I always like say it’s, I don’t know, 90 days on paleo or keto or whatever it is. I might do the 90 days. But once I hit that 90 days off, I go, yeah, you know what I’m saying? Like, I’m free now. I could do whatever. And it never worked for me. I remember way back in way back. I did Atkins, right. I lost like 65 pounds or something. I looked amazing. The minute that I got to, the thing I had to do, which was my wedding. I started eating carbs again and blew up to 85 more pounds. Like what the heck? Right. But you’re right. I mean, it’s all about like, making it completely about a lifestyle to care about yourself and not about a diet, plant diet plant. Like maybe like having some parameters would be good, but not just, I’m not just doing it for a certain amount of time. That doesn’t work for me.
Speaker 1 00:34:01 Right. And you know, I was saying I got sidetracked, but I was saying, you know, can you love yourself enough to tell your family know if your partner was an alcoholic in recovery, would you go buy a bottle of bourbon and drink it in front of your partner? Like that’s not supportive. And so if, if Nina, if your red light foods are X, Y, and Z, like it’s just a fact, the people you live with are going to have to not bring it into the house. And you know, you need to understand that I will hurt myself with this. If you bring it, do you want me to hurt myself? I can’t stop. So please love me enough to go eat your Krispy. Kremes when you’re not with me, you know, it’s not that much to ask. I don’t think we all think we’re worth it. I think a normal person should be able to handle this, and I’m not going to inconvenience my loved ones by making them suffer. Well, you know what too bad, if not suffering that you can’t bring Krispy Kremes into the house.
Speaker 2 00:35:08 Yeah. Deal with it. Exactly. And you know what another thing is, and I don’t know if you’ve ever done this, but I do, uh, you know, I have, um, you know, I have children, my husband. Okay. So what I do and I’ve had to stop doing is I buy it for them. So I buy what I really want, but not for me, for them. You know what I mean? I don’t know if that’s a way to self-soothe, you know what I mean? Like, Oh my, my husband loves Reese’s peanut butter cups. So I’ll buy him. Cause he have anything he’s he’s fine. Yeah. I’ll buy him. Reese’s peanut butter cups, but then I’m like, damn, he’s having condoms. You know? So I, I don’t know if it’s a self-soothing thing, like watching them eat these things makes me feel better. I don’t know. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:35:51 You Nina, I don’t believe you. I think you buy those Reese’s peanut butter cups to keep that door cracked for yourself to have some restrictions.
Speaker 2 00:35:58 Oh yeah. We called you out for a second. We’re going to have to talk straight. Talk me shit. Exactly. Yeah. That’s right. But that is all that’s facts. We drop in facts. Um, because I, I do tend to start thinking about it and Oh, I know where he keeps them and you know, but I bought them. I bought them, you know? Yeah, that’s right. You’re right. I mean, I think so. I think it goes both ways. I think, yes. Our families do have to be involved in our recovery and this is really a recovery process, a daily one, a daily one, because like I said, in the beginning, we also need food to survive. So for somebody like you and I, who has, uh, eating problems, eating disorders, compulsion’s, it’s a very difficult thing to manage because it is something you do need to survive.
Speaker 2 00:36:51 You do need food. I don’t know about you, but I was also never taught on how to eat properly, you know, especially growing up. Right. So we really came from poverty and you know, my mother had like, you know, welfare and stuff like that. So we would get like a lot of sugary cereals and you know, that kind of stuff. Cause it was cheap. Right. So everything was in a camp. Exactly. It was all in cans, all in boxes. Um, she was a great cook, but it was we’re Hispanic also. So it was a lot of rice and you know, things like that. I just never learned how to eat. Right. And so I found a lot of comfort in bad food, you know? So yeah. And you’re still dealing with it as an adult. Right? Johnny. I mean, you grow up 100% and you’re like, I’m an adult. I should be able to do this.
Speaker 1 00:37:34 Yeah, no, I don’t cook. I don’t cook like casseroles. I don’t cook. I can’t, they call me there in the refrigerator like Johnny,
Speaker 2 00:37:44 Johnny, Johnny, Johnny. That’s real
Speaker 1 00:37:47 Cool for you to just eat me while you watch TV.
Speaker 2 00:37:50 Right, right, right. You worked hard, you worked hard.
Speaker 1 00:37:53 Yeah. Yeah. There are things I can’t do. And you know, um, we talked about, uh, kind of some what to do if eating is a problem and, and a couple of intensities, do you, um, do you have the notes on that? Do you want to cover some of those points?
Speaker 2 00:38:10 Yeah. If eating is a problem, like we were talking about, um, um, mindfulness is the most effective self-defense right. The most effect. And I agree with that and I know you are, um, really big on this as well. So I’d love you to touch on this. So how do you incorporate mindfulness into like this daily struggle? How do you do that? That’s right.
Speaker 1 00:38:33 So one of the tenants of like my, uh, you know, I I’m, I’m a coach and I have a coaching practice and like one of my tenants is you already know, you already are like these, this is a deep truth for me. And it’s because we have all of them science and knowledge, we need built into us. It’s hardwired in us. But the thing is that when you stop listening to it, it gets quieter and quieter and quieter. So the process of like being aware of what’s happening right now allows me to know, am I really hungry? Like, wait, wait, wait. Because sometimes hunger and let’s say a shame trigger or an anger trigger or an anxiety trigger feels similar. So it takes a minute to say, am I really hungry right now? Or am I just upset? Yeah. You know? And so that mindfulness of coming into the present moment and examining the moment that is so valuable.
Speaker 2 00:39:36 So good. Do you use that in conjunction to also walk away from a meal? Like, like say something’s in front of you and you’re like upset about something or do you also say, okay, hold on and walk away for a second to think,
Speaker 1 00:39:51 Oh, that is difficult beyond measure, like, you know, to leave something on the plate and it’s really hard. Um, I can’t say that I haven’t done that. Yes I have. But what I try to do is apply mindfulness into serve, serving my plate. Um, because once it’s on the plate, I just, it’s almost unthinkable to leave, to leave four beans on the plate. There’s just no way, like, you know,
Speaker 2 00:40:21 Do you think that’s an, do you think that’s part of the upbringing, like cleaning your place?
Speaker 1 00:40:25 I think a lot. I think, I think for the, for, I think it, yeah, I think that there’s definitely a cultural aspect to that. Um, but for me, I think it’s less cultural. I, I hear a lot of people say that it’s like, they were raised in a situation where if you wasted food, like it was a big mine.
Speaker 2 00:40:46 It’s a huge deal. Yeah. Yeah. And so I find myself doing the same thing. I find myself cleaning my plate, nothing gets thrown out and I’m a chef. Right. And I work in a place where we, my kitchen is about sustainability. So we use everything. We, you know, we grow our own garden, you know, all of that stuff. Right. So, um, it’s a phenomenal way to be. But it also, as a person who gets triggered, right. When something’s on my plate, it has to be eaten. So sometimes I’ll serve myself a smaller plate, but you know, what I don’t do all the time is sit down after I VE in that and say, is this enough?
Speaker 1 00:41:22 Oh, that’s so helpful. You
Speaker 2 00:41:24 Know? Yeah. Like I, you know, you, you served yourself what a normal person would eat. Are you okay right now? Because sometimes I won’t think it, cause I’m a fast eater, so I eat really fast. And then of course it’s not even true. The single didn’t even go up to the brain yet to say you’re full. Yeah. I’ll go get myself that second plate now I’m overfull. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. So you know what I’m talking about
Speaker 1 00:41:49 For sure. And you know, like we talked, we mentioned earlier that not everybody goes to, has the same extreme relationship with food that you and I have experienced. Right. You know? And so, um, for those listeners who just can’t quite relate to this, um, you know, I think that eating for comfort from time to time is normal. Part of our experience in society, the same way that some people, when they have a hard day, sit down with a glass of wine or two, like that’s, that’s normal. Like that’s typical and that’s fine. You know, if, if, if you’re upset and you find yourself eating a half, half of a pint of ice cream, uh, you know, like that’s fine. You know, but when it becomes you doing things you don’t want to do, that’s the, that’s the difference here. So, you know, I recommend for people who find themselves occasionally, uh, eating in a compulsive way, those are the people that I think diets really help or having an accountability buddy. Um, because shame, we talked about shame, shame lives in darkness. Yes it does. When you shine light on shame, it evaporates. And so calling someone and saying, listen, best friend. I really feel like I want to eat a pint of ice cream right now. And I know that it’s not good for me. And will you just tell me that it’s okay and that I don’t need to eat that. Having someone else say, yeah, we’ve all been there and it doesn’t sound good for you. Right? Like that is powerful. It is because the shame evaporates.
Speaker 2 00:43:30 Right. But you need the right people to Johnny because some people will go ahead, girls just here’s just for today. It’s only that pint of ice.
Speaker 3 00:43:39 Okay. When you’re like, no, that’s not what I need. No, no. You have to set them up in advance. You have to set up that. Right. Right.
Speaker 1 00:43:45 Good point. I’m glad you said that. Cause I forgot that. Yeah. You definitely need to say when I call you, because food is a pattern for, you know, food is a problem for me. I really need you to speak to me from a place of balance.
Speaker 2 00:43:58 Yeah. Yeah. It’s like I told my husband, I said, honey, sometimes I think you love me to death. I think you’re loving me to death. And he goes, what do you mean? I’m like, you’re always wanting. Cause he always wants to make sure I’m comfortable. I’m comforted. Right. So he’ll bring stuff home that he’s not supposed to. And I’m like, I cannot eat. Okay. You’re going to kill me. I know you love me to death, but I don’t think it’s literally like, you don’t have to kill me now. You know? And he’s like, Oh, you’re so dramatic, but it’s not. I don’t think they realize that. Yes. I’m a strong person. I work hard. I have a, you know, I, I, I’m a go getter. That’s who I am. So I think don’t see too much weaknesses in me. Right. But I know that this is one of them.
Speaker 2 00:44:37 I know it is, you know, it’s is a daily struggle. And so, you know, for those of you who are listening and watching, you know, you’re not alone. If you are struggling, you are not alone and you’re not crazy either. Cause sometimes you feel like, am I crazy? What am I doing? You’re not crazy. This is something all of us go through and it’s good to have a good support system. It’s really good. And if you don’t have anyone around you, that is a support system or somebody, you know, you don’t have a big family or anything like that. Find yourself a group that can support you. That’s right. Um, right. I mean, you were talking about that earlier. I mean, you, you went through a program yourself and those are really, you know, that can be very helpful.
Speaker 1 00:45:17 Right? Exactly. Cause there’s like a whole spectrum of help out there. You know, if you’re someone who’s only occasionally out of control, get a diet and uh, you know, get an accountability, buddy. If you’re finding yourself out of control frequently, even if your life isn’t off track, you know, then, you know, get a nutritionist, get a therapist, right. These are people who can really help, uh, uh, kind of help heal before it becomes too dramatic. If, if the quality of life is impacted for you, then there are some more, um, serious options. And, you know, um, I’ll just mention there are treatment facilities for eating disorders, um, where you can do inpatient or outpatient. You can Google that and find some of those. Um, there are, uh, there’s 12 step programs. Um, you know, there’s a couple of different varieties of 12 step programs that deal with eating disorders. And so, uh, you can Google that as well. And you know, of course 12 step programs are free. They don’t cost anything. Um, and typically, yeah, they typically apply the same tools and methods that are used with alcohol to other compulsion’s. And so, um, uh, that, that is, uh, you know, those are the type of treatment programs that I used and that helped me. Um, and you know, so there’s that whole spectrum and you can research what feels right for you.
Speaker 2 00:46:49 And you know, also I think a big part would be self-acceptance knowing who you are, accept who you are. It’s okay. Um, my son, my son is, Oh, he’s older now. So he’s, he’s definitely learned to embrace himself. My son is gay. And when he was younger, when he was struggling with that, he also found a lot of comfort in food. By the time he was about 13 years old, he was way into the 200 pounds. He’s like two 20 at 13, you know? So once he found himself in, he accepted who he was and he said, you know, momma and gay. And he just, he and, you know, embrace that. Now he lifts weights all the time. He’s in sports in nutrition, you know, like all of that, like as soon as you start to embrace your flaws, if you have flaws and you know what, what you are and who you are as a person too, that also helps us to release on any kind of shame that you’re holding.
Speaker 2 00:47:42 Right. Especially shame that was put on you. That’s not even your shame to hold, take that off first, just get rid of that. You know, it’s, if somebody did something to you, that’s on them, not on you that’s, you know, um, and if you did do something you’re ashamed of forgive yourself, forgiveness is huge. And when you start to forgive the person who hurt you and yourself, there’s just this weight that lifts right off of you start to see a little bit more clearly, right? It’s cause this, this thing that me and you have, Johnny is a mental game, really, you know, nobody’s forcing us to get anything in our hands. Nobody’s forcing us to put anything down our throat. It’s all in, it’s all in the mind. Right. It’s all in how we feel at that moment and what we’re following, right? Yes. So, yeah. Yeah. I’m glad you mentioned the programs. I didn’t realize that some of them were free. That’s fantastic. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:48:34 You know, like those inpatient and outpatient programs aren’t necessarily free, you know, but like 12 step, 12 step fellowships are always free. Like that’s, that’s, that’s a, a part of it. And um, yeah. You know, it’s just, it’s, uh, like I said, shame, shame lives in darkness. And the minute that we can find enough courage, I won’t even say love for ourselves because maybe that comes later, but the minute you can find enough courage to go to someone that, you know, won’t ridicule you and say, I just feel really heavy in my heart about X, Y, Z. Um, you know, that burden starts to lift. And, uh, you know, because like, like you said, with your son, it’s shame is a trigger and, uh, uh, it’s about finding that peace and love. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:49:28 This is such a great conversation, Johnny. Oh my gosh. And I learned a lot. I’m going to look into a few of those things. You mentioned. Definitely. One of the takeaways for me from our conversation is, um, besides the self care is, um, the mindfulness, like having that mindfulness when you’re eating, putting the, putting the, the group, the grouping of foods, right? So this is my red, this is yellow. This is great. That is brilliant. Brilliant. Because, um, I’m very methodical. I need things done a certain way and I’m very organized that way. So that would work for me, you know, like, Oh, this is red. Yeah. That’s red, you know, it’s dog food. Not doing that. Yeah. I love that. Um, so thank you for that and what, you know, the weight loss that, because I’m still on my journey. Like I said, I buy, I have about 80 pounds to lose. And, uh, but I’m very proud of you. I’m very, very proud of you. I really am. I think that what you did was extremely hard because at 400 plus pounds, and it’s really hard to look at that and say, how am I going to deal with this? Right. So the takeaway is nothing is
Speaker 1 00:50:37 Possible. That’s right. That’s right. Nothing is impossible. You can do this. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:50:42 You know, because I don’t want people who are like five or 600 pounds thinking, that’s it. I’m, I’m uh, I’m done. I’m done.
Speaker 1 00:50:49 No. Uh, let me tell you, I’m going to close it out with this. I’m going to say that when I was, you know, when I was on a half dozen medications, unable to stand and do my job unable to fly, um, socially isolated, I believed that it was my fate to fade into dark. That’s what I believed. I believed that my best case life scenario was to lose 50 or 75 pounds. I would stay in like the mid three hundreds. Maybe I could find someone to spend my life with. And I would just trudge that road forever. That’s what I believed was my best case scenario. Because in my mind, if someone lost 200 pounds, they would make a documentary about them. Like that’s so huge who loses the weight and keeps it off. You know, you hear people lose weight and then they gain it right back plus more.
Speaker 1 00:51:50 And so I just didn’t think it was real. And when I first went in to get help, I didn’t expect that this would happen. I just wanted enough relief for the pain to stop. And when I was given a new life, a complete new lease on life, my career bounce back stronger. My love life bounce back stronger. My finances bounce back stronger. My body bounce back stronger when all of this happened. Um, it was just such a gift that came by surprise because I CA I was willing to just tell someone that I was hurting. So good. Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 00:52:37 Uh, and only just like you didn’t do it overnight either. It’s one step at a time guys, one step at a time don’t get discouraged. Don’t look at the numbers because this is what happened to me. I looked at the number like, Whoa, I almost have a hundred pounds to lose. I can’t no way, you know, but once I looked at it as, Nope, I’ll just start today with whatever I can do today. And then tomorrow I started the same. I’ll just do today. What I can do today. Right. So that’s all you can do, right. Because if you look at the number, like if you want to look at the numbers, somebody said to you, okay, Johnny, we’re gonna go for 300 pounds. You would be like, exactly, exactly. Right. You would’ve just exactly what you would’ve done. Laughed or cried and be like, I’m never going to be able to do this.
Speaker 2 00:53:19 Yeah. So just one bit at a time guys, one bit at a time, one moment, a time, one bite at a time. And there’s a lot of great programs even now on virtual, on T you know, you can just turn on your computer and find a lot of great information out there. So don’t be discouraged because sometimes even I get discouraged when my weight goes up a little, I’m like, Oh no, what am I doing wrong? You know, it’s like, just, don’t be discouraged one day at a time. Right. You didn’t get there overnight, Johnny. I’m sure it took you some time to get there.
Speaker 1 00:53:49 Right? Exactly. And I’ll say, you know, if listeners have any questions, I’m happy to, I’m happy to answer. I’m sure you will too. Nina. Um, my email is Johnny J O H N N *@****************ng.com. And you can find me on Facebook at, uh, refractive coaching and, uh, or you can go to my website, refractive coaching.com. And I’m happy to give more specifics. Um, I didn’t want to go too deep into those on the podcast, but I’m happy to give those on a one-on-one and Nina, if people have questions about your journey, what do you recommend?
Speaker 2 00:54:24 So they can find me at, uh, they can email me actually a hello at straight talk, no sugar added.com. Same thing for all of my Twitter handles. It’s all of my handles. Actually, it’s a no sugar added.com. So straight talk, no sugar added.com. But, um, Johnny, I really, really highly recommend that people do reach out to you. I think that, uh, you, you definitely know what you’re doing. I already listened to your podcast. So if anybody, uh, doesn’t know, please do go to refractive. Um, he is pretty much on all the platforms I believe. Right? Yeah. And listen, because it is really, really, really insightful. I loved your keynote. That was amazing. I still think about it. It’s it was so good. Uh, so I really highly recommend that everybody just goes to your site. I’ll make sure to link all of your information as well below. And so that, you know, people can find you and follow you and listen to you and book some coaching sessions. Cause I think it’ll be worth their time for sure. Yeah. So this was amazing. This is really good.
Speaker 1 00:55:27 And Nina, as I simulcast this episode on my podcast, why don’t you tell my listeners who may not be familiar with your podcast, what they could expect if they tuned into different episodes?
Speaker 2 00:55:39 So my episodes are really about life topics. That’s what I talk about. So I have great thinkers like yourself and people who are coaches, entrepreneurs, business developers, you know, things like that. Come on the show and talk about real life stuff and how they overcame challenges in their lives. How did they become that nine figure business? How did you become a coach? How did you lose your weight? How did you, that’s what I want to talk about real life topics to challenge and transform our thinking.
Speaker 1 00:56:08 That’s right, exactly. Awesome sauce. I’m so I’m so happy that we worked together on this knee and, uh, I’m happy that our listeners get to, um, enjoy each other’s, uh, perspectives.
Speaker 2 00:56:21 This was amazing. Thank you so much, Johnny. Thank you. Have a great day.
Speaker 1 00:56:24 You too. All right, bye. Bye. You have been listening to refractive podcast and this is Johnny G. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, do me a favor, give it a share on social media or if you’re in the podcast app, give it a rating. If you’re on YouTube click, like it really does make a difference in the search results. I am a speaker, coach and facilitator based in Washington, DC, but I work in person and remotely with people who are ready to step with clarity into their most authentic life. If I can be of service, reach out to me, Jo****@****************ng.com have an amazing day. Be good to each other and always remember aim your light.

Kandace Graham didn’t miss a daily call with her mother for over 20 years. Not one single day. When her mother unexpectedly passed away in mid-2020, Kandace found herself in a state of mourning that didn’t look like what we’ve come to expect. While she processed the sorrow of finishing one chapter of life, she entered a natural, authentic state of grief that was built on gratitude, peace, balance- and even joy- as she saw the gift of her mother’s presence in her life, her mother’s successful completion of her life’s work, and the legacy Kandace would carry on.

Email Kandace at au********************@***il.com or find her on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/AuthenticLegacies

Find her mother’s book on amazon by clicking here: Living from the Inside Out by Angie Haggens; note that this podcast does not profit in any way from this link.

For a similarly- themed episode, try The Ancient Truths of Acceptance and PLINKO.

Episode transcript performed by audio software follows below- please excuse any inaccuracies.

Speaker 0 00:00:02 Ever since you can remember, you felt something in your chest telling you to move, to love, to speak, to try day after day. You pretend you don’t hear calling when maybe you dismiss it as silliness or worse that it’s there ready for you, and it will wait for you. And as long as you need, my name is Johnny G and I invite you to join me on a journey of awakening. As we dare to embrace our light. This is refractive. Hello
Speaker 1 00:00:35 Everybody. And welcome to another episode of refractive. I’m Johnny Jean. Today, we have such a powerful episode to go through and, uh, I’m excited to introduce you to a guest. She’s a very close friend of mine. Her name is Candice Graham. I want to start this episode with an intention to send out so much love and light to all the people who are listening to refractive today. Uh, because this is an episode that deals with a topic that can be sensitive. And, uh, I just want you to know that however you feel, whether you resonate with this topic and my take on it or not, uh, I do just want to send that love and light to you. Spiritual growth is not for the weak. And while we hear people say all the time at the passing of a loved one, that we wish each other peace, and that we believe that our loved ones are in a better place. It doesn’t mean that we don’t sometimes spiral into a dark space, um, because it’s hard to process the death and the passing of someone that we’re very close to.
Speaker 1 00:01:46 But when we look at the concept of spiritual growth, every single thing that happens in life, every joy pain, every moment of boredom and adventure, they’re all catalysts that are designed to gently nudge and sometimes not so gently nudge us on the path to a road of healing and to our highest calling of stepping into authentic power. So Candace, as I mentioned, she is a business owner, a community philanthropist, and a spiritual intuitive born in Baltimore. She relocated to Miami in her twenties where she put to use or education in science and in culinary arts. And she built a career and friendships that today span the globe. And I get to call myself one of those today. She’s back in Baltimore, she’s married to the love of her life. And she has two little centers of her universe. She has her kids, Devin and Olivia in 2020 in the midst of the COVID pandemic.
Speaker 1 00:02:44 She experienced the passing of her mother. She calls it her mother’s transition inspired in part by her mother’s life work, Candice launched authentic legacies. It’s an organization to help others become their most authentic selves. And if you listen to refractive, you know, that’s my jam. So, uh, the services that you provide include, uh, business consultancy, personalized crafting mindfulness development through authentic legacies Academy and Oracle card, intuitive readings for her philanthropy. She has three properties dedicated to supporting community nonprofits and families. So after all of that, Candice, welcome to refractive, my wonderful and powerful friend. I’m so excited to have you here. I’m excited to be here. Thank you for bearing your soul with us because, uh, I think the story of how you handled and processed your mother’s transition was so it was just so inspiring. I couldn’t believe it. I, I watched you go through it and the whole time I was ready to show up for you as a friend, to a person who was spiraling into darkness and that never happened.
Speaker 1 00:04:00 Um, I watched you maintain serenity and that doesn’t mean that you didn’t have sorrow. Um, but I just couldn’t believe that someone actually was able to respond naturally to this, uh, ideal idealized way of processing the death of a loved one. So before we kind of talk about a Candace, you wrote, uh, an introduction to your mother’s book to a special edition of your mother’s book, you call it in her words, and I would love to have you read part of that introduction to us so that we can see inside your mind what was happening as you processed her passing.
Speaker 2 00:04:41 Oh, of course. Welcome to my mind listeners and Johnny lovely again, don’t say don’t run away scared. Okay. So, uh, this is so, um, in her words is it will be a, this a collection of her handwritten notes from the process of writing her books and some other things that she was researching and practicing spiritually. Um, so the introduction begins. It was approaching 9:00 AM on Friday, August 21st, 2020. And there was still no answer, no response on Skype, Facebook, home, or cell phones. And over 20 years, we never missed a morning. Check-in never, I immediately knew. I just knew I got Devin and olives in the van and headed to my childhood home to pray over my mother during her transition. I just knew no sadness, no numbness, just peace and preparing my spirit to meet her. I just knew there she was on the couch, peacefully transitioning just as I knew, she looked so peaceful, so beautiful.
Speaker 2 00:05:40 So authentic. I prayed over her a shorter that we were all okay. Thanked her for those things that she reported to Devin and Island. I was humbled and with gratitude from the depths of my soul, thank her for the faith, strength and courage. I just knew she gave me that was sustained me on earth here without her, everyone from then until now, ask how I held it all together while I didn’t. I cry when I need to laugh when I need to handle business. When I need to talk to God, when I need to talk to her, when I need to, how can I not be strong when I just witnessed and knew the beautiful spirit that guided me, loved me unconditionally and taught me to love unconditionally poured the spirit love and wisdom of God. And to me, and demonstrated and inspiring and inspired unwavering faith was teaching me her final lesson, a peace that surpasses all understanding.
Speaker 2 00:06:31 I had no desire to understand what was happening or why it didn’t matter. And still doesn’t my goal. And my assignment was to ease her physical body. As her spirit was returned home. I just knew it had to be me. And it was truly the greatest honor of my life. Thus far, like everything in her house, in her life. She ended her mission on top and radiant. I can see her dancing and singing her way into the Gates of heaven, ready and prepared for her next assignment, sitting at the feet and thrown of the God. She loved what an overwhelming joy I had, knowing that she was reunited with family that proceeded her. The ringleader had arrived.
Speaker 3 00:07:06 Is that a look out? Although
Speaker 2 00:07:08 They knew she was coming, they prepared. I just knew that I had witnessed the most beautiful transition of a Saint that activated my transformation, walking alongside my little mommy during her transition. I felt the warmth and confirmation of my from connection with God, my faith transformed from a muster seat to a diamond. As I performed CPR with every whisper of a heartbeat, I prayed, cried and focused on helping her spirit reach the finish line. She knew she wasn’t perfect, but to me, she was, I just know she left her legacy and wisdom. And I just know I will too.
Speaker 3 00:07:47 You just knew I had
Speaker 2 00:07:50 Listen to Angie. Ain’t not picking up the phone. If he had an ounce of anything in her body, she would’ve called somebody, somebody, if she would have crawled out into the, onto the porch and waited for the garbage men to come, she would have reached out. And, you know, definitely always been an open discussion in my family for my grandfather being my mother every six months, she gave me an updated manifesto of her wishes and, you know, account numbers of who to contact in regards to different financial matters. So it always been an open conversation. We also openly talked about faith. Um, and honestly just w when she was here, we were just so split spiritually connected that, like I just knew, I knew that there was no way in the world that she would not take my call for that span of the morning. And I’m like, okay, well, like I said, I got the paper, the manifesto and headed over. And, you know, just when I got here, it wasn’t about me. You know, I can’t imagine everyone has different responses to definitely, as you said, some people, you know, have that response and granted, you know, once
Speaker 4 00:08:56 The EMT, you know, you know, unfortunately she had passed on the transition at that point. Yeah. I was like, my, my sister was here and I was snotty, blubbering mess. And then I was like, okay, you know what? My heart was not hurting for myself. Cause I had her, I had her for 41 years all to myself. That was my little mommy. And you know, I couldn’t have asked for a better, better mommy. Um, but my heart was breaking for Devin there, peanut butter and jelly, all her friends that she’s known longer than I’ve even been in. You know, my heart was breaking for those people, um, that I had to make the phone calls. Like I said, in my writing, I got hung up one. I got cursed out. I got, who is this Candace Angie who no, I think you have the wrong number.
Speaker 4 00:09:41 So that was where my sorrow and grief and mourning Kane, because much like us, she didn’t have Canterbury, many casual friends, everyone was family. Um, so that, that was where, you know, the, the saw and the grief came, came in. She’s fine. She’s in heaven or working wherever it is that she needs to be. Um, and we’re here still trying to figure it out. So, um, you know, she accomplished everything she wanted to accomplish. She wrote her book, she got to spend time with her grandkids, even up to the evening before her passing and her transition. Um, her car was paid for, she was retired. She had traveled, um, she met Shamar Moore. So like she did all the, she touched, uh, Oh, what is his name? Uh, Ricky Williams, I think from the Miami dolphins. She touched his locks in the club. Like she was living her best. She lived her best life. She absolutely loved her best life. Yeah. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:10:33 But as an outsider, it just seems so extraordinary that for someone so close, I mean, you, you never missed a call for 20 years every day. Um, it’s just amazing that you seem to have found peace and acceptance so quickly. What do you think, what do you think was the reason for that?
Speaker 5 00:10:58 Um, honestly, I,
Speaker 4 00:11:00 I can’t, you know, I am not a very, uh, I say religious person, but we’re very spiritual. She talks in her book about her various, um, spiritual practices and things that she did to keep herself centered and grounded up until that point. Like if I was walking around like Montebello, I will be on the phone listening to Joyce Meyer through her. If I didn’t want to hear it, I’d be like, Oh, I’ll call you at 11 when you’re done. Um, but it was, it was like I said, it was a duty. Um, I looked up the word primal, cause it was primal and not in the sense that I felt that the urge that, so I looked it up. Um, and just on Google, um, like an essential, basic feeling that urge to protect yourself and your family from harm on the most basic part of, of who you are, that’s important, your hardwired behaviors enhanced your ability to cope with the vital environmental contingencies, tribal loyalty that is dedication to the people close to you and self preservation.
Speaker 4 00:11:58 So a part of it was, yes, I need to hold it together because if I don’t hold it together, then I won’t be together. And you know, I’ve got kids and so I just need to hold it together in this moment. But bigger than that was, you know, this woman lives, she two weeks passed her 65th birthday. You know, I want to honor her and everything I do to this day. I want to honor her. I want to be sure, you know, when the nine 11 operator asked me to perform CPR, I was like, no, I want to be humping away on her chest. You know, she passed sometime between when she started transitioning, I say transitioning because when I got here, she was not all the way deceased. Um, which I think is interesting because the TV was on the morning show and that comes on.
Speaker 4 00:12:42 I think it’s six or something like that. So sometime between one in the morning and about nine was when the transition started. So when I got here, you know, she was still, you know, she was still warm. Her ankles and wrists were a little rigid, but her knees and larger lambs were able to be moved. So to me, I’m like, okay, she’s, there’s still, there’s still some, some level of consciousness there. You know, if, if I were laying here at my favorite spot watching my favorite show, having my favorite beverage and I had that last moment of consciousness, what would I want to, like, what would I want those moments to be like, I would want to be reassured, I would want to, you know, like I said, in my writing had to be me. She was at my house the night before she would not have had a peaceful transition.
Speaker 4 00:13:29 Had she been in some horrific accident or the kids had seen her, you know, have some type of calamity. So, you know, to me, it’s like, you know, if this were me laying on the couch and Devin or Olivia came in, what would I want them to do? Realistically in my mind, I would want them to be like, okay, mommy, you know, everything’s going to be okay. You never know how people are going to react, but I’m like, you know, she can hear me. And this is the last time she’s going to hear my voice. And the last time I’m going to see, you know, any signs of like, what do I want this last exchange to be? So, like I said, as I was giving CPR, I mean, I was definitely crying and I got nine 11 on the phone. She’s like, do you feel her heartbeat?
Speaker 4 00:14:05 I’m like, listen, she’s like, get on the floor. I’m like, I’m not something on the floor. Listen, this lady lived 65 years and accomplished. I’m not thumping her on the floor. She’s like, well, I can tell you how to gently put her on the floor. I’m like, okay, well, that sounds better. Like, this is still my mama when I came in here and I didn’t know what was going on, I was still at, hello, mommy, are you here? So, you know, it’s all about, you know, like that prime or, um, just honoring, honoring who she is even to this day, through that moment, you know, if there’s any level of consciousness, what, what was, she would have wanted right. Over anything that I was feeling she would want to know. We had just had a conversation. Um, after I had Olivia, I had a health crisis and she told me how proud she wasn’t me, that I was able to go and help and advocate for myself.
Speaker 4 00:14:53 And that she knew I was, she knew that I was okay. Um, and she knew that Devin and Allah, she, she knew that everything here was settled. So me knowing that in her mind, you know, I’m like, yeah, we are okay. And go, you know, go peacefully, go see grandma and pop, pop, and Marsha and gosh, Russell from like the 90, you know, just all of these people that she talked about, you know, so many friends passing away with COVID and I’m like, you know, what, what better way? It’s, like I said, when your favorite spot, we called the counter Woody on Woody Washington, the morning show, she had like a bottle of water. Her hair was rolled up in her rollers. So, you know, when it came time for the viewing, literally all they had to do was like use her hair. That was it.
Speaker 4 00:15:37 So was like, she was ready. She was, she was ready. Um, her body wasn’t in any type of distress or comportment, nothing was knocked over. Um, she, she was just peacefully laying there. Um, I can’t say that she necessarily waited on me, but you know, there was definitely enough consciousness there that even when the MTS were, you know, doing CPR, they never shocked her when they were doing their CPR and intervention. Whenever I would see a slight jump in the monitor, I would say, you know, we’re okay. I love you. You know? And they’re kind of looking at me and I’m like, okay, she could still hear me right. The heartbeat. Right. Okay. So I’m going to reassure her and let her know. And you know, she’s looking down now. So there’s, I’m quite sure she shaking her head about a lot of stuff. God is telling her about me. Maybe she didn’t know, but in that moment,
Speaker 6 00:16:27 The Miami clubs are like, well, she was there for a lot of it. Oh goodness. Jessica Labonte, Jessica, Jessica LaMonte is doing your mama’s nails right now
Speaker 4 00:16:41 And talking and talking cash trash all the way. So, you know, thoughts like that and like, laugh like these. I’m like, you know how you know, she’s my best friend, one of my best friends. Right. I’m down here. Like, where’s the,
Speaker 6 00:16:54 Yep. So I wanna, I wanna kind of, you know, part of the reason that processing the death of a loved one is so hard is because of our attachment. It’s not, you know, love is not selfish, right? Love is not, love does not fear. Right? So when someone dies and we go into hysterics, that’s, that’s not our love talking. That’s fear. That’s fear that we’re alone. Fear that something that was ours is not with us anymore. Fear that a source of comfort support stability has been taken from us. Right. And so the pain of someone’s passing is mostly not, not fully, but mostly from attachment. Our ego has told us that we need this person, this person counts towards our happiness quotient. And if this person isn’t available to us anymore than we’ve lost, we’ve lost out. And it’s that loss that feels so painful and scary. And so I, I find it so interesting that you, um, while you relied so heavily on your mother for that emotional nourishment, uh, in that food, you still found yourself able to, um, let go and not clenched down. Right. Because it’s that clenching, don’t go, don’t go. Don’t go. It’s that clenching? That hurts. It’s not the letting go. That hurts. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 4 00:18:43 Well, I guess I could say, I never really held on now that I’m thinking about it, you know, we were thinking about it now. I guess we were just kindred spirits that, you know, just ended up as mother and daughter. Um, she would tell you in a minute, I don’t belong to anybody, but God. So, you know, I, you know, keeping that in mind, you know, she was my mother, but I was also a gift to her. You know, she was here before me, she gave life to me. So, you know, all of the, all of the things that I need to hold on to from her, she’s given me, she’s given me, um, I guess that’s the best way I can describe it. Um, if I, you know, sometimes I’m like, Oh my gosh. Like if I could just ask, like, we had a leak in the basement here in her house and I’m like, okay, this is what I want to ask my mom.
Speaker 4 00:19:31 I want to ask her about this frigging bucket, you know? And then there’s other times where I’m like, Oh, I’m going through the situation with, you know, with Devin or Olivia. I wonder what she would have done. And, you know, I think about her, her mother passed away when she was very, when she was a late teenager. Um, and she didn’t have her mom at all during, you know, when I was born. So a lot of her, most of all of her adult life, she had to navigate on her own. And I had the benefit 20 years over her. So we talk so openly about so many things. I mean, it would, we would say the same things at the same time. So I think that we were so spiritually connected and my faith won’t my faith. Doesn’t allow me to have that, that, that mentality.
Speaker 4 00:20:13 You know, if I believe the word of God that I believe in, you know, whomever is listening, whatever your higher power belief is, if you believe the truth of that practice, then essentially you shouldn’t he to your, I guess, another prime or, um, another primal instinct. I, it was just something natural for me. It’s I just, like I said, when I was at home, I just knew. So, you know, driving over, even though I had to pick up my husband’s key from the mechanic, I stopped and picked up his key from the mechanic. You don’t want the way there. Cause I was like, you know, I, I just knew, I knew what I had to do rushing. Wasn’t going to, you know, I didn’t want to get into an accident, you know, coming over here in hysterics. Um, as the EMT is lap, I had them put her back on the couch and I play some gospel music.
Speaker 4 00:21:01 I called my one of my long time childhood friends. Who’s a pastor. I said, Hey, what are you doing? He’s like, Oh, I’m at work. I said, okay, well I need a favor. He’s like, Oh, of course anything. I said, okay, um, Angie is past, you see on the couch and say, I need you to say a prayer. He’s like what? He’s like what he said, okay, wait, wait. Here’s what he said. Okay. Let me ask a, come on now, pastor, you know, you know, you are called one an assignment. So he said his prayer. He said, okay, I’m gone. I’ll talk to you later. So, um, I, I just, you know, I never hold possession over over people. Um, and I, you know, I know ultimately what’s best for her is in her spirit. You know, that body that was here, you know, she had her, you know, her crosses the bare some things that she was very easily able to work through. Some things that she was not, those are not issues that she has to work through anymore. Um, like Byron Katie talks about her mom, you know, why should I, why should I be upset? You know, if her mom had cancer, why should I be upset that she’s not here still suffering?
Speaker 6 00:22:06 Right, exactly. That she wrote,
Speaker 4 00:22:08 She wrote her book. Anything, honestly, any I finished, I finally read it. Re-read it? I should say. Um, after the editing process and anything that I would need to know is in that book except about the bucket in the basement. Yes, yes. Every everything except the bucket in the basement is in that book. Um, so how wonderful would it be for you to have left this legacy of a child and a grandchild and a home for, for your family? This book of wisdom, um, have accomplished? The only thing I think that she didn’t want to do was stop smoking and go to Fiji. Yeah. Those were the only two things. And then COVID hit. So she was on her. I ain’t going to Fiji. She wouldn’t even go to Wegmans. So she was not going to get on a plane and go to Fiji. So if she was content with her life, I would have nothing but joy and happiness for her.
Speaker 4 00:22:58 And, you know, in the means of compassion, like I said, if I was laying on that couch, of course, you know, I would not expect for my kids not to be emotional. Right. But having the presence of mind and just having, I guess, the strength to compartmentalize, I guess it’s like, okay, in this moment, I need to be a guide. I need to help her transition. And once all that’s done, you can kind of lose it, you know? And then from there you pick up the pieces and see what needs to be done. All right.
Speaker 6 00:23:28 So Candace, we are going to take a break. Uh, everyone we’ll be back in just about 45 minutes with our guests, Candice Graham. Hi everyone. I’m so happy that you’re listening to refractive podcast. I hope you’re resonating with today’s episode. I’m speaking, especially to those of you who are leaders in your organizations. If I can ever be of service for your team, I hope you’ll reach out to me. I live my best life by helping others do the same. My services include facilitating leadership meetings, offering workshops and seeing employee events. And of course, coaching, I work with individuals and with small groups to help your high-performers release, limiting beliefs and step into their full power I’m based in DC. I’m happy to travel and I can also support you virtually through zoom for more information, please visit refractive coaching.com. And now let’s go back to the podcast. All right, everyone. Welcome back to refractive, Candice, to jump right back into the conversation. I really want to dig a little bit into your mom’s book. We’ve mentioned it a couple of times. Would you share with the listeners what’s the title of the book and uh, what’s it about how did it come about?
Speaker 4 00:24:43 Um, so the title of the book is it’s a lengthy one. We had discussions about this living from the inside that said, you know, it’s your truth. You tell it, you put all the letters in there. You, you want, um, is this going to be, is a video going to be shown? Is it just going to be audio or video too? Yeah. Okay. Um, so the book is, um, this sister, she loved butterflies, um, living from the inside out metamorphosis of the butterfly within growing through life’s challenges. And, um, basically it’s just kind of a, uh, an outline of life experiences, life lessons, um, advice. I think every chapter has like a piece of advice in it. Um, male or female, I think a lot of the misconceptions, you know, because she’s a woman and she’s writing about her experience. You know, she talks about, um, putting on a facade, wearing a mask and not feeling good enough not being enough.
Speaker 4 00:25:40 Um, these are all things that realistically everyone, you know, challenge is challenged with. Um, so basically that’s what it is. It’s not really a memoir in the sense that she goes from, you know, birth to, to transition. It’s more about life lessons. She talks about the Rona in there, um, in, well that’s in the supplement, but, you know, she talks about being loose and being considered being a ho. And, you know, I remember some of the stories that she told me that aren’t in the book and, you know, it’s a very good synopsis of 65 years of wisdom. That’s very, very concentrated into, Oh gosh, it’s not even, it’s a very, very quick and interesting,
Speaker 6 00:26:23 Right. That’s right. I read it. It took me, I think, three hours, three pages. Yeah. And it’s, it’s a fast read and it is a chock full of wisdom. So, you know, here’s my perspective on, on that book. Uh, and we will share, uh, how to get a copy it if you’d like it’s available. Um, it’s available in paperback and it’s also available on Kindle. And my perspective is it’s not that Angie’s wisdom and life lessons are so revolutionary and never before seen. It’s not that it’s that she takes wisdom that we all have heard before. And she applies it to like, in this moment of my life, here’s where I applied this life lesson that we all already know. Right. And here’s what happened, or here’s a moment of my life where I would have benefited from applying this life lesson that we all already know. And because I didn’t, this is what happened. So it’s a very practical application of wisdom. And it’s about stepping into your true authenticity. Yes.
Speaker 4 00:27:43 It’s very transparent. It’s very transparent. Um, but the beauty and I guess one of going back to, you know, why it was so easy for me to, um, celebrate this transition. There’s nothing in this book. I didn’t know. You know, I don’t, I don’t feel like she left any cards on the table. She didn’t have any crazy bones, you know, skeletons in our closet, all the skeletons. Most of them, a lot of them are in this book. Um, I think it was very candid, but it was very respectful. Um, outside of very briefly mentioning, mentioning family. She didn’t mention names in situations, um, which I think is helpful because if you know her, you remember the whole, was that me? Was that not me, but it doesn’t detract from it. Doesn’t detract from the message. Um, like it’s very practical. And she, I think the thing that makes it very authentic and relatable is that she checks herself and she’s like, you know, what if I would’ve, you know, if I would have accepted the fact that it’s normal to want to date or sleep with or whatever, more than one, man, it doesn’t make me a ho if I would have accepted that and looked at it from a different perspective, I probably would not have made a lot of choices that I did or didn’t make.
Speaker 4 00:28:56 Um, so it’s not a, it’s not an, I learned all these lessons and now I’m so great. And I’ve moved on. It’s a, Hey, this happened, I didn’t know that I didn’t know this information, but now I do. And it’s how I improve. Or I knew this all along. I didn’t follow my intuition and this is what happened. And I learned a lesson. So, you know, being able to be that truthful and honest and authentic with yourself, um, that makes a difference. Yes. And that will give you peace.
Speaker 6 00:29:26 She talks about, for example, I mean like, like just for an example of how relatable this stuff is, in addition to her struggle with society’s definition of morality and how, you know, she would fall short of what society says she showed her have done. She talks about the complicated relationship with her father and how like, by absorbing messaging, that was not hers. It was not authentic to her, but by absorbing other people’s messaging and holding herself to other people’s standards, it tore her up from the inside and it held her back. Right. I talk about aiming your light, it shut her light out, you know? And, uh, as she compared herself to her siblings and to her, her parents’ expectations, it, it affected, it affected her. And I think that there’s so much of that, that we can all relate to. Um, when we swallow someone else’s definitions of appropriate and then get upset when it doesn’t fit.
Speaker 4 00:30:27 Right. And I think that, I feel like, I don’t know if it really translated through the book or if it’s just because she’s my mom and I knew, but I think that a part of that was a lot of, um, assumptions as well. Um, I know there’s, she told me about conversations that she had with people about the book Africa. And they were like, well, I never felt that way. Why did you think I felt that way? And she’s like, Oh wow. I just, you know, just naturally stepped into that role. I just naturally took up that cross to bear. And they were like, well, no, you know, so, you know, having been through what she went through with my grandmother and, you know, being in the house at 18 and, you know, going through the things with my, my grandfather and grandmother and then various things throughout her life with work, you know, holding it all in, absorbing it and then still putting on a brave face.
Speaker 4 00:31:16 So then people just keep dumping the mess and you just keep absorbing it. And then you, you know, you put, you have a closet with a ton of stuff in it. You don’t know what’s there. And then one day it just all explodes in one way or another. So, um, yeah, I loved the book. I helped her edit up to a certain point. And then I was like, okay, this is enough hour. I’ll get around to reading it. Um, but like I said, there’s nothing, there’s nothing in here that, that I didn’t know. And definitely she was not a very, uh, micro-managing mom. So it’s very interesting to read and see how much I am light. I mean, I knew that, but how much I am like her and how my values, um, mirror hers and certain things and aspects of my life that she may have wished that she could have had that.
Speaker 4 00:32:03 I, I, I did experiences not because she, you know, she certainly was not thrilled when I told her I was moving to Miami. Um, but she, I know that that was something that she always wanted to do was, was said she could have left Baltimore because of, you know, my grandmother’s house, she wasn’t able to. Um, but she on the flip side was like, Oh great. And this is where our kind of philosophy is managed a match. You know, my daughter is moving to Miami. How, you know, how sad that I’m so that she’s so far away, but also I have a vacation spot. I can go stay in a hotel for free. I can get free massages. I can go to the, so while
Speaker 2 00:32:40 I’ve missed it, I guess this is kind of a synopsis of it that while I miss her, I know that the experience that she’s having and the character that she’s building far outweighs my need to have her close to me.
Speaker 6 00:32:53 Yeah. Yeah. I picked a part of that book. That’s my favorite. Would you be willing to read it? Sure. All right. Look, I read through that whole book a second time. I’m like, wait, which one’s my favorite. And I read through the whole book again, it is such an easy to digest, easy to read book. Um, yeah. Anyway, go ahead.
Speaker 2 00:33:13 Yeah. And I was like, Oh, I’m gonna, I’m gonna like write this the whole, my whole copy is marked up. I’m like, I can’t even pick one favorite part. Um,
Speaker 6 00:33:25 Yeah, cause it’s a study. It’s a study guide. It’s like a stairs for how to, how to find your own authenticity. That’s really what her mission was. She talks about it in the beginning. She’s like, you know, and that’s the whole metaphor of the Caterpillar, right? Is that like you go through this so that you can stand firmly and confidently in who and what you are, you know? And,
Speaker 2 00:33:48 And it’s a process. Trust the process, trust the process. Um, okay. So the excerpt from her book, I’m not sure which chapter this is.
Speaker 6 00:33:58 It’s from it’s from the last chapter, I think.
Speaker 2 00:34:01 Okay. Um, so this is living from the inside out, um, metaphor of the metamorphosis of the butterfly within growing through life’s challenges by Andrea, Denise, Angie, Hagans a novel by Kush. Um, uh, so her and her words for me, I started my evolution or my transformation when I finally got to the point where I was tired of being a people pleaser. I had been aligned myself to be used or taking for granted and knowing my wants and desires, there was a lot of negative self-talk going on. I needed to detox from the stories that I created in my head about who I was. I found that life is all about relationships with your parents, your children, your relatives, siblings, and lovers, friends, coworkers, with all those relationships going on. I oftentimes forgot about my relationship with my divine entity. Just as important as that relationship is a relationship with myself. I realized that you always have to leave something for yourself, but don’t give all of yourself away. So when it comes to you that there’s nothing left you’re depleted. I came up with my personal vision or mission mission statement as a result of emerging from my cocoon. My vision statement says my success depends on my ability to use my knowledge, skills, and life experiences with integrity in order to help others begin to heal. That’s basically the premise of my book.
Speaker 6 00:35:23 Ooh, goosebumps. I love it. This is so many of us. And, you know, Candice you’re, you’re one of my spiritual partners. It’s a, it’s a term I use. Um, I got this from Gary Zuckoff spiritual teacher, but it’s a term I use for people who are in my life and on a parallel spiritual journey. And there are people I use to hold myself accountable and, uh, to bounce things off of. And I count on these people as well to challenge me when I’m not living up to the growth that I say I want. And, um, for so many of us who are on this path, the idea of living a life, living my best life, so that other people feel so other people find their own permission to live their best life. Like that’s what it’s all about. That is what it’s about. And when I read that, Angie was like, that’s the premise of her book. Like, man, that just resonated with me.
Speaker 4 00:36:30 And, and that’s really, you know, I I’ve always, I didn’t feel like I had the means to, to be that, to be that force in people’s lives for one reason or another. Um, but always worked in hospitality. So, you know, that urge to, to serve people, to help people, to make their lives better, um, above all, to help them realize that they are worthy and that they have all the things in them that they need. Um, you know, I listened to Byron Katie and Joyce Meyer, TD Jakes and other . And they, I won’t say that they have a cookie cutter approach to things, but
Speaker 6 00:37:12 Don’t argue they don’t argue with each other.
Speaker 4 00:37:15 Right. So, but why can’t you have, have your own philosophy? You know, you take what you can and release what you can’t. So, you know, I might say something from Byron Katie, something from TD Jakes, something from NAS or DMX channel 47 on Sirius FM. When the kids are like, I need the shirt that says I’m spiritual, but I cuss a little bit, you know, you just have to know, you know, like I said, you know, you walk up two feet, you have your, your spiritual foot and you have your third world or your earthly foot. And you, you know, you have to learn to strike the balance. And once you find your own balance, not only will people see your example, but they will trust and believe that they can do it themselves. And they they’ll trust your advice. Um, it’s happened to me, you know, in my relationship with you, you, you can sense who’s authentic and who’s just like shooting the mass at you.
Speaker 4 00:38:08 And if you don’t trust yourself and you’re not authentic and truthful for yourself, like, you know, like she says in her book, if I can’t put all of that aside, then I can’t help myself. And then I can’t help anybody else. So people see me, they’re like, wow, you know, she’s like, how is she doing it? How is she accomplishing all of these things? And she always used to say, you know, people always wonder, you know, what’s going on at her house. I never see, you know, people come in and go in, but she don’t, she always has put together and she’s like, it’s none of their business. And I said, you know, this evening when I was thinking, I said, reminds me, I can’t remember who said it, but maybe multiple people, um, other peoples, Oh, what is it? I like, it’s not my business with other people think about me.
Speaker 1 00:38:50 Oh yeah, you’re right. Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
Speaker 4 00:38:53 It’s not my business. But when I take care of myself, I’m authentic to myself. I don’t have to be concerned about their opinions because they will, they’ll, they’ll get the picture. And they’ll, you know, they’ll know what’s really going on is when you’re not authentic. And you’re wearing that mask that people are trying to figure out and, you know, the backbiting and the, you know, the gossiping and the whisper start. But if there’s nothing to, you know, there’s nothing, there’s nothing to guess about. There was nothing to guess about with my mom. Um, I, I don’t think there was anyway, people knew who, and like she said, in her book, people know what to call me about and what not to call me about. And if you call me and ask me, I’m going to tell you, so, you know, setting those boundaries as well, um, helped her, you know, maintain and keep her cup full for herself.
Speaker 1 00:39:38 Certainly no mystery to me about where the title of your organization comes from. So I’d love for you to kind of give us a kind of like a high level story of, uh, what’s the connection between you starting authentic legacies and this path, this chapter that closed with the passing of your mom.
Speaker 4 00:40:01 Um, and just in general. So my last job was in hotel sales. And like I said, I’ve been in hotels since I was 18 or 19 years old. And it always interested me that people don’t don’t understand their power. They don’t know their power, they don’t know their basic rights, um, something so simple as when I had one of my children, I didn’t know, I could walk outside and get fresh air. I couldn’t take the baby, but I had a C-section. I was in the hospital for a week. Just that little bit of fresh air, you know, it would have made such a difference in my recovery. I feel so my, you know, one of my main goals is to, you know, ultimately teach people and, you know, say, Hey, listen, these are your rights. Um, get, you know, once you recognize what your needs are, first of all, you have to know what your needs are and how to advocate for yourself.
Speaker 1 00:40:48 Talking about like legalities, you’re talking about, this is the space you have the right to take up in your life.
Speaker 4 00:40:54 Both, both, both, both. I mean, you know, it, it could be a spiritual thing, you know, like I said, you know, my faith won’t allow me to believe and think certain things. And if I am having those thoughts, then I go back and question my faith and then that’ll bring me back around, you know? And not everybody has the spiritual maturity, I guess you could say. Um, so, you know, and knowing what it took for my mother to get to where she was in her authenticity and spiritual maturity, and also here, you know, physically materialistically with the things she had and how she handled money. Um, I would like to teach people in the community how to kind of fast track get there, you know, it won’t, it shouldn’t take you 65 years. It took someone else 65 years. It shouldn’t take you 65 years.
Speaker 4 00:41:39 The information is there. Um, you know, it could be, you know, something spiritual about, you know, meditation. A lot of people say meditation doesn’t work for them. Well, maybe there’s, you know, there’s many forms of meditation. It’s not all owns and, you know, Tibetans thing in bowls, there’s lots of things you can do. Um, and then materialistically, you know, I’ve been talking to a lot of my friends own homes. I’m like, listen, you got to get a life estate deed. And I’m like, well, what does that? So, you know, it’s basically a deed that when someone passes away, the house automatically rolls over to their name. There’s no probate and debt, people don’t know these basic things. Um, and it, and to me, that’s a, that’s a great injustice that, I mean, she, that wasn’t her platform, but to me, it’s a great injustice when people aren’t able to access their full potential because they don’t have information that someone else has, or at least that I have. So, you know, I’m a forever student of myself and the world, you know, the material world and the spiritual world. So I would, it would be an injustice if I didn’t share that with someone else.
Speaker 6 00:42:37 Absolutely. Candice, how can people get in touch with you if they’d like to?
Speaker 4 00:42:43 Um, so you can email **@***************************il.com,
Speaker 6 00:42:48 I would say single or legacies, plural legacy,
Speaker 4 00:42:52 A single, single, authentic legacy for Hawaii project. Um, you can find me on Facebook under the same title and soon to launch when this podcast airs, um, will be the authentic legacy project, YouTube channel.
Speaker 6 00:43:06 All right. All right. So, uh, all right, everybody. Well, I want to give so much thanks and appreciation to Candice for coming on here, making herself vulnerable, sharing, such a personal story. I got to tell you, Candice, when I was trying to come up with the outline, I felt so uncomfortable writing out these topics. Because even though we’re friends like you, don’t like, you can’t know how other people are processing such a personal thing. And I’m like, Oh God, like I can’t, I don’t want to step on her toes. But the reason I want her on my show is because what happened was extraordinary. And, uh, and I want people to know that it is possible to love someone with all of your heart and to celebrate the fact that they have passed on. And to use that as your spiritual fuel for your next chapter, you did it. I saw it. I now know I can do it. And I want everyone who listens to this to know that they can do it too.
Speaker 4 00:44:06 That’s absolutely. Yep.
Speaker 6 00:44:08 So, all right, everybody. Well, we are wrapping up now. Have an amazing rest of the week and always, always remember aim your life.
Speaker 4 00:44:18 All right. Take care.
Speaker 6 00:44:24 I can’t read you all right, everybody. Now here’s the real goodbye. Bye everybody.
Speaker 4 00:44:29 Bye.
Speaker 6 00:44:32 You have been listening to refractive podcast and this is Johnny G. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, do me a favor, give it a share on social media, or if you’re in the podcast app, give it a rating. If you’re on YouTube click, like it really does make a difference in the search results. I am a speaker, coach and facilitator based in Washington, DC, but I work in person and remotely with people who are ready to step with clarity into their most authentic life. If I can be of service, reach out to me, Johnny J O H N N *@****************ng.com have an amazing day. Be good to each other and always remember aim your light.

Author, playwright, and screenwriter R. Eric Thomas joins Refractive’s Johnny Guidry in an episode celebrating the gift of laughter. From laughing through the pain of societal changes to surfing the wave of group laughter at the movies, Johnny and Eric dig into this magical gift that raises our energy to the next level and nudges us to be our highest selves.

You can find Eric’s HILARIOUS writings at the following links. His website is rericthomas.com, and find him on Twitter and Instagram at @OurEric

His books are: HERE FOR IT  and RECLAIMING HER TIME

His Newsletter: Sign up here, weekly humor essays and recaps

Plays: New Play Exchange Profile

For more information on Refractive, visit www.RefractiveCoaching.com or www.RefractivePodcast.com. You can find the Refractive YouTube channel by clicking here.

For a similarly themed episode try Unlocking Joy with Jamir Smith.

Episode transcript follows (performed by automatic software); please excuse any inaccuracies.

Speaker 0 00:00:01 Ever since you can remember, you felt something in your chest telling you to move, to love, to speak, to try day after day. You pretend you don’t hear calling. Maybe you dismiss it as silliness or worse that it’s there ready for you, and it will wait for you. And as long as you, my name is Johnny G and I invite you to join me on a journey of awakening. As we dare to embrace our light. This is refractive.
Speaker 1 00:00:47 Hello everyone. And welcome to refractive. I’m Johnny G. Today. I am delighted to introduce you to our Eric Thomas. He is a national best-selling author. He’s a playwright, a screenwriter, and way back in another life, 12 years ago, he and I used to run in the same circles. So it’s wonderful to connect with him here for the podcast, his debut memoir here for it, or how to save your soul in America was a huge hit Lin. Manuel Miranda called it a pop culture, obsessed David Sedaris level laugh out loud, funny book, and it was published in 2020. It was featured on today as an August read with Jenna club pic. And it was also selected by NPR and its list of best books of 2020 for four years. He wrote Eric reads the news, which is a daily humor column, covering pop culture and politics on l.com. And it’s through that, that he’d gone, heard millions of followers. He’s currently writing on the Peabody award-winning series, Dickinson on Apple TV plus, and also better things on FX. I’m excited for you to get to know him as well. And, uh, we’re going to talk today about the power of laughter and humor and what an essential part of human experience laughter and humor is. So I really hope this episode resonates with you. I’m looking forward to it and let’s go, Eric, how are you?
Speaker 2 00:02:19 Oh, I’m so good. I’m so glad to be here with you, Johnny.
Speaker 1 00:02:22 I am delighted. I can’t believe it’s been 12 years since I’ve seen you in person.
Speaker 2 00:02:27 Well, this is the thing about social media. It feels like you’re, we’re hanging out in each other’s lives every day, even though we don’t talk. So this is great.
Speaker 1 00:02:34 Yeah. So thank you so much for being here. And, uh, this topic was something that just felt so natural for our conversation because of your journey. When I discovered that you had written this book here for it and that it was being so widely read. And so well-received, um, I do audio books. That’s kind of how I absorb most of my books nowadays. And so I use one of those audible credits. Now it was like download. And when I am, I was driving on a road trip while I was listening to your book and just guffawing. And so as you and I talked about doing a podcast episode together, I was like, it’s gotta be around laughter in humor because Eric is someone who is harnessed the power of laughter to really, um, shape the path that he’s on. And part of the service that you give to the world is helping them find their own laughter. So, um, this really feels like a natural topic for us.
Speaker 2 00:03:40 Okay. I mean, I’m excited. I love talking about laughter it’s, you know, there’s the adage. There’s nothing less funny than talking about. What’s funny, but I think, I think there are lessons in harnessing humor for all of us. I think it’s really essential to sort of being alive and tapping into the joy of being alive.
Speaker 1 00:03:59 Yeah. And so you mentioned during our kind of initial planning that, um, you found that laughter has a strong healing property and I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 00:04:11 Yeah. I, you know, I am putting together a minimum of more, you know, you go through everything that’s happened in your life. And then of course like the structure of story is usually there was conflict. I got, there was an obstruction in my path. I wanted something, I didn’t get it. I didn’t, I or I tried to get it. And then eventually you get it or you don’t get it, it’s a comedy or a tragedy, you know, reform will sense. And one of the challenges that I set for myself was I want to tell the stories of places in my life where, um, things were hard, but I want to find the funny in it. I want to figure out what the locus of the humor is. Um, there’s another adage, you know, uh, comedy equals tragedy plus time, which I think it’s true, you know, not everything becomes funny eventually, but everything becomes takes on a new context.
Speaker 2 00:05:02 And I think humor and laughter really give us a new sense of context about our surroundings and about our world. And it also helps us to identify well who the butt of the joke is or what the butt of the joke is. And there’s some really times where we feel that, uh, we are the butt of the joke. Um, whether it’s like the joke is a joke, uh, put on by society or whether it’s a joke that’s put on, you know, by, uh, an individual in our lives. And just reframing that and saying, I am able to laugh along with myself and laugh at the path that I’ve been on. It really helps to change the perspective, I think on everything that I’ve experienced. And I continue to think through, think of that, that, you know, even as I go through hard times in the present, I, I say to myself, eventually I’m going to write another book about this. And hopefully that book will be funny. We’ll see, you know, cut to 10 years from now. It’s like he never wrote another funny book again, but
Speaker 1 00:06:01 Yeah, you know, um, you F I guess caught the eye, um, of the world with Eric reads the news. And so just the point that you’re making right now, it’s about finding funny in just the ridiculous mundane things that we have to deal with every day. And I wonder if looking at news stories and trying to find the humor in it had an impact on your growth and how you serve the world.
Speaker 2 00:06:32 I think so, you know, there it is so easy for the news to feel overwhelming and, um, to really give into this desire to say like, you know what, I’m, I’m out on this new cycle, I’m out on the present. I, if something happens, somebody will let me know. And my job required that I look into the, the flame that is the news. Um, and you start to see the performative nature of so much of what is going on. Um, and so looking at politics as performance, um, and as narrative I think is really, really helpful, um, going through the pandemic and being stuck in the house or figuring out what is, what is funny about this situation that we’re in. And, you know, also saying, you know, well, sometimes this, this situation isn’t funny, but there are little nuggets in it that I can find, um, that are funny.
Speaker 2 00:07:28 Um, just really it’s for me, it really is a mindfulness exercise. It really is sort of saying I’m going to, uh, acknowledge everything that is happening, um, as sort of, uh, on an equal playing field, I’m going to acknowledge what’s happening inside of myself. Uh, I’m going to note it, and then I’m going to pick and choose from it, what I can use in a humorous way. And that has really helped me, even though I don’t write the column anymore, it’s really helped me in my news diet, in my, in my, uh, social media diet. It’s helped me to sort of take everything and say, like, not everything is attacking me right now. This is information and I can, I can let it go if I need to. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:08:12 You know, we look at the, the presumed conflict between, you know, um, you know, the leaders of the Republican Congress and the leaders of the democratic Congress. And we like, it’s like, we pretend that they’re not working together to make all this stuff up. Right. Like the idea of Nancy Pelosi sitting behind president Trump and doing that clap, you know, that she did like that wasn’t finely orchestrated and brainstormed around a table in advance, or, you know, when Mitch McConnell of flip-flops and like, he’s not making a phone call in advance to the other side and saying, look, I’m about to flip on this and just be ready because it’s pageantry, it’s pageantry, you know, and I think that your point is exactly right on that. Like, let’s, let’s treat this with a little bit of levity because although it affects people’s lives, like the people who are showing up in the news, it’s just another day at the office for them. Right.
Speaker 2 00:09:13 Exactly. And, you know, and, and I think that can be very disheartening. And I think there are some politicians, you know, maybe some newer ones, or maybe some, some veteran politicians who understand, um, and have a deep desire to do the sort of granular groundwork that is governance. But my suspicion is particularly in this, uh, media saturated age, particularly in this like post post television age that we like the generation of politicians that we have are used to performance, um, and pageantry. And so if you look at, if you look at the ag, you know, activities of the Congress in the same way, as you look at the Oscars or a drag show, um, and I think it right-size this time, it’s like these people put on their costumes, they get in front of cameras. They say the thing that you want to hear, and you think about campaign promises, what does a campaign promise like this is it’s lips thinking for your life. And then you’re
Speaker 1 00:10:15 Like, great. You know,
Speaker 2 00:10:17 You, death dropped on the $15, million minimum wage. You get my vote. But the way that, uh, you know, we all watched, um, schoolhouse rock, we understand that like the way that a bill becomes a law is not by going on TV and, and selling it, you know, and, and, and, you know, razzle, dazzling, it’s, it’s boring and it’s granular and it’s legalees. And so those two things become separated in my mind. And I’m like, I see the things that are being performed for me. And as a viewer and as a participant and as an American citizen, I’m able to say like, I, I can see the pageant as a pageant, and I can see the injustice and the work of governance for what that is and see them as two separate things.
Speaker 1 00:11:01 Yeah. Yeah. So in a broader sense than just politics, um, talk to me about how you’ve learned to find funny in the unfunny and what that, I mean, what that even means, because it can be treacherous land to walk.
Speaker 2 00:11:20 Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, a lot of, a lot of the stories that I’ve told about my life, a lot of things that I, you know, I write in a weekly newsletter where I sort of write about what happened in my week or what’s happening in politics. And like a lot of times it starts with this thing is frustrating to me. This is something where I didn’t get what I wanted, and I have learned to not hold everything up to the light, uh, with the question of whether it’s funny or not. But I have learned to say, is this, um, is this something that, um, I can see levity, and I’ll give you a small example. There’s an essay in my book about, um, a time that I went viral in 2002 for writing an article in my college newspaper, where I was mistaken for white supremacist, very common, very common thing. So for listeners who don’t know, I’m a black person. Um, and I was writing what I thought was a satire and everyone else thought was a serious, um, critique of black history. And so it didn’t go over well. And I got thousands of emails, and even as it was going on, even as there was a campus meeting being held about me as a person that nobody knew, um, and everyone thought was,
Speaker 1 00:12:34 I can’t believe you were hiding in the back of the room. That was amazing. They’re like, we gotta find this are Eric Thomas. They’re like
Speaker 2 00:12:42 Forks and Eno and torches. And I’m like, Oh, I don’t know where he went that way. Um, even as I was in it, it was a miserable, miserable moment in my life. Um, even as I was in it, I was like, this has the hallmarks of farce. Um, I’m literally hanging in the back of my, in the back of this auditorium, pretending not to be myself. And so, you know, maybe five, six years later, I got up at a storytelling show and I tried to tell them actually, well, the first thing that happened was the newspaper staff. We all had like a meeting after we all had blown over and we tried to do a drinking game based on the, the hate mail I received. Um, uh, every time somebody said accident turned, turn where we all drink and that went over.
Speaker 1 00:13:28 It’s like, mean tweets. It’s like the predecessor to reading mean tweets. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:13:31 Exactly. And, uh, that went over like a lead balloon. It was terrible. It was awful to sort of read those words, to hear those words. It was too soon and I didn’t have the right focus. I was, I was, I was still the butt of the joke. The years later, I tried to tell the story at a storytelling show and it kind of fell apart on stage because I was, I was not, I was still in it and I was still hurt. And it didn’t, it wasn’t until years later, as I was prepping the, write the book that I realized that, like I had a lot of complicity in that, um, in my own sort of, uh, the bad things that happened to me in that situation. And I had to sort of acknowledge I was in pain and I tried to write to that tire and, and I failed.
Speaker 2 00:14:17 And so acknowledging I failed at this, I put all these other people in a bad situation and they reacted and the minute I did that, and then the minute I acknowledged what I had done wrong, it freed me to right around the rest of the humor. And it became funny to me because it wasn’t that I was using humor to mask places where I failed. It was, I was like, I made a mistake. I’m not the butt of this joke, the situation, as far as, but in the heart of the farts is a person who I have forgiven. And I acknowledged that I did something wrong. And that’s what started this whole thing.
Speaker 1 00:14:55 Yeah. And there’s the healing that we were talking about, you know, um, this certainly, isn’t very funny, but the idea, one of the principles that I very much believe in adhered to over these past couple of years, as I’ve gone through a spiritual path, is that ego can’t survive in the light. And that the minute you turn the light on your ego and you look at it, it begins to fade away because you start to see it for what it is. And it’s not an immediate thing. Always it could be, um, but it’s a gradual thing that it begins to lose its power. And so I love that through looking for the humorous side, you saw the total, the totality of what had happened and that allowed you to kind of let go of, I don’t know, your egoic grasp of like this wasn’t fair.
Speaker 2 00:15:47 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That’s a thing I had gone for years. It had been probably a decade, um, uh, maybe more and always thinking I, I was wronged by all of these people and, um, and I did nothing wrong and, and let’s talk about how funny that is. And it just didn’t work. It didn’t work as a comedic premise. The minute I said, I did something wrong, I, I have a part to play in this. And, um, I forgive myself for making the mistake that got me into the situation. It freed me up to, to see it all in a direct sizing. Yeah, yeah. That’s right.
Speaker 1 00:16:30 You know, I remember after nine 11 happened, um, all the comedy shows went dark. Well, not all of them. Right. Uh, but most of the prominent comedy shows went dark and some of them for several weeks, I remember because I was a fan of David Letterman. I, uh, when I was in high school, I used to watch it with my mom and, uh, every night. And, um, I was in college when nine 11 happened. And I remember like, wow, David Letterman is not on for like weeks. And, um, and then decisions were made in our culture that it’s now appropriate to come back in force with comedy as a sign of resilience and strength and our determination not to let this, um, disrupt our way of life. The point of this story is that not long after that Gilbert Godfried was roasting Hugh Hefner, you know, they had the friars club roast and, uh, he made a joke about, um, nine 11 and the crowd went through this awkward silence.
Speaker 1 00:17:43 Someone yelled too soon. And, and this was, I learned the first time that too soon entered pop culture commentary of like, uh, because it was so widely broadcast and it just caught fire. And now it’s almost like a joke, right? Like someone makes an inappropriate, but like too soon. Right. Um, but you know, it goes to show that there is a healing that needs to happen. There is an appropriate boundary, right? Not everything can be funny to everybody, uh, in the midst of pain, but it’s, by looking through that, like you illustrated and finding the healing in it, uh, that we can then take joy and the randomness of life.
Speaker 2 00:18:30 Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s so fascinating. I did not know that about too soon entering vernacular at that moment. I, I, you know, I’d love to hear what the person who yelled it was thinking, because it’s, it’s really, it’s very wise. It’s this idea of it’s like the person wasn’t saying don’t ever say that, you know, the person was saying, we’re not there yet. And, and, and that acknowledges that we’re all on this continuum and that humor has a place in the continuum, but it’s not right now. And that’s really, I’ll give you, it’s like reading the room, you know, which is every comedian needs to do. I’ve, I’ve like nine 11 comedy is, which is a string sentence or straight trays. But I find it very fascinating because so many comedians really do try and push the envelope and move our culture forward, um, and, and shake an audience and say, we, we can talk about this. And I think there’s ways of doing, I think, of various ways of doing well, but I think there’s a lot of ways of doing it irresponsibly and, um, and responsibility when you’re, when you’re trying to make people laugh is, is a huge thing. I think that’s, that’s sort of my primary sort of motivation is, is this responsible?
Speaker 1 00:19:41 Yeah. Yeah. All right. We’re going to take a break for just a few seconds and, uh, everybody we’ll be back in just 45 seconds. Thanks a lot. Hi, everyone. I’m so happy that you’re listening to refractive podcast. I hope you’re resonating with today’s episode. I’m speaking now, especially to those of you who are leaders in your organizations. If I can ever be of service for your team, I hope you’ll reach out to me. I live my best life by helping others do the same. My services include facilitating leadership meetings, offering workshops, emceeing, employee events, and of course, coaching, I work with individuals and with small groups to help your high performers release, limiting beliefs and step into their full power I’m based in DC. I’m happy to travel and I can also support you virtually through zoom for more information, please visit refractive coaching.com. And now let’s go back to the podcast. All right, everybody, welcome back. I’m here with our Eric Thomas and we are talking about the role of laughter and how it helps to heal and move on, move on and find joy and even thrive. And so Eric, we were talking earlier, uh, before the break about some of the sensitivities around certain types of humor. And I know that we were referring to what the limits of humor are. So what else do you have to share with us on that?
Speaker 2 00:21:08 I think humor is, I think it’s important to think of humor as a communal experience. Um, and so you want to make somebody else laugh, even it’s if, if it’s a conversation on a date or whether it’s family dinner or whether it’s a auditorium, a thousand people in it. And so you obviously can’t be inside of somebody else’s head and know what they think is funny. But I do think that there is a responsibility to be, um, cognizant that you are, there is a consent involved in it. Um, and so humor can’t act, um, as a sort of a catch all for, for everything that you’re trying to do. It has to be, uh, an ex, uh, a give and take. I also think the humor, you know, a lot of times, and we were talking a little bit about this with, uh, with nine 11.
Speaker 2 00:21:57 So many times we use a joke to, to shove the conversation into a new space. Um, uh, and sometime, you know, and depending on the consent in the, in the group, sometimes that’ll work. Somebody breaks the tension or the grief at a funeral with a joke about the deceased in the right space. That is exactly what everybody needs, but you’ve got to know your audience, know your audience. Um, and, um, and also know that, like, it doesn’t take the place of, of true healing. It doesn’t take the place of, it can be a signpost of healing. It can be a path along, uh, uh, it can be a step along the path of healing, but it isn’t healing itself. And it isn’t, you know, when you think about political humor, it also isn’t policy. Um, it is not, humor is not itself social change. Uh, it can be a harbinger of social change, but it is not, it is not a substitute for action.
Speaker 1 00:22:54 Yeah. And I mean, that’s completely evidenced by the white house correspondence dinner, right. Where like the whole nation comes together and pokes fun at all kinds of politics, but it doesn’t change things.
Speaker 2 00:23:07 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I mean, that, it’s up as a pageant, you know, you got journalists and politicians all sitting around, yucking it up and you’re like, I feel like maybe this is all an act.
Speaker 1 00:23:22 There you go. You know, I, as you were talking, I was thinking about married with children. So the old sitcom and how so much of the humor from married with children was about Al Bundy being this caveman, who was like not accepting of, uh, progress. And a lot of the jokes were about his lesbian neighbor. A lot of the jokes were about his wife’s role in life. And, um, and you know, I remember sitting down and watching that show with my brothers and like my mom not approving of us. Um, but it, it did kind of, it did kind of desensitize the topic of people who are resistant to social change, even though it was Al Bundy making so many jokes about like, uh, his perception of like liberals and whatever. How do I say this? Everybody kind of shared in the pageantry of the humor and it really did bring to the forefront, um, an opportunity to, uh, see this societal issue a little more clearly.
Speaker 2 00:24:35 Yeah. Yeah. I think television is so has such an interesting role in this because so often we do have contrarian characters, Al Bundy, um, uh, Archie bunker is probably the most famous and, you know, there are ways, but, you know, there are ways that that contrarian character is elevated and there are ways that contrarian character satirize. And so, like, it is, it is always introducing a conversation and again, like television isn’t social change, but it does for better, or for worse, married with children did put a lesbian character on television. And that is that’s. That is I think, a step on a continuum, you know, to say like, you know, we’re probably about the same age. Like I don’t recall seeing, um, gay, lesbian and transgender characters on television. And when I was, um, when I was a kid, um, uh, besides like very few instances and I didn’t, I wasn’t allowed to watch my children, but I was aware that there was a lesbian on my own marriage children, and for much of my childhood and even teenage years, um, uh, gain his queerness, didn’t have a name.
Speaker 2 00:25:46 Um, and, and it wasn’t, it didn’t exist. And so the minute you put language to it, um, you, you move it along, you move it further into, um, into the light. And that is, I think that’s very interesting, you know, and I think the legacy of some of these shows are, you know, Archie bunker still holds up, but then you look at, you look at some old episodes of all in the family and you’re like, Oh, I don’t know that I would listen to, I don’t, I don’t want to, I don’t want to put this in my brain, but on the other side, it’s like, that’s the way that people were talking back then. That’s right. It was a reflection of the society, but there was a kernel there that says, I am reflecting the conflict that I see in society in a bit of a fun house mirror. Um, and I’ve done the processing to figure out what our solution might be. I think, married with children and all in the family and the Jeffersons all offer solutions for if society is interested in taking them,
Speaker 1 00:26:46 Right. Because, you know, and we’ll move on from married with children. But like, uh, you know, the thing is that, although Al Bundy seems to be the hero, he is the protagonist of married with children. Those show writers, those show writers who crafted Al Bundy in his crude, uh, every man hero status also made the decision to put a lesbian on TV. Right. And so it goes to show that’s what I was trying to say earlier that I didn’t, I didn’t articulate very well that even though my brothers watched it for the macho humor, there was a bigger story being told that was one layer beneath that it helps society to become less sensitive and more open to considering, uh, new topics.
Speaker 2 00:27:41 Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I like, I write a little bit for television now, and it’s been very fascinating to me to see your one television is such a huge collaborative process between from writers to executives. Uh, you know, obviously the people you see on screen and every step of the way it can go one way or another, it can go wrong. And, you know, so like a kernel of good intention can turn into mockery or a kernel of mockery can turn into something that is, um, pushes a culture forward. Um, and so it’s, it’s exciting and it’s also like dangerous. And you think everything that we receive from the news to sitcoms to dramas is movies, uh, is narrative and narrative teaches us what our values are. Um, and so I don’t think it’s, I don’t, I think it’s really important to seriously consider what we are watching and, and, and to ask the questions like we’re asking, like what, what, what does this character do for us?
Speaker 2 00:28:44 And how can we help that character achieve the end in a, like, in terms of society that we’re looking forward to achieve? It is something that I think is never finished, you know, like, and I think that we will always look back and say like, Oh, we couldn’t, we had a great opportunity for this character. We look will, and grace could have been, this could have been more of that. I think those things are true, but I also think that there is a, it comes down to community communal consent. And if the community is saying, we are not going to watch something that doesn’t, that we don’t, that doesn’t fit into our narrative, you know, what effects can come in narrative have nobody’s watching it. So, you know, there’s a, there’s a strange give and take. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:29:27 So, you know, one of the most amazing, uh, an extraordinary experiences in life is when you lose yourself in laughter with another person. Yeah. You know, and we’ve all been there when we’re with a friend and something catches us off guard as hilarious, and you just can’t stop laughing. And one person laughing, causes the other to laugh. And it’s just this cycle. And I wonder, especially with your experience of standing on a stage with the goal of making people belly laugh, how has that role of the physicality of laughter worked into the calculus that you apply to what you do every day?
Speaker 2 00:30:06 Oh, that’s a great question. There were times where, um, well, like I, you know, I host them off storytelling, um, show live and we’ll be in the theater of 400 people. And there are times where laughter moves like energy across the room and you become a feels like I’ve, I feel like Tom cruise or minority report, you know, where I’m like moving things around on the screen, a little dials and switching things. And it’s you, it is, it is. And it’s honestly like, so mix a metaphor. It’s like surfing where you sort of consents, you sense the people who are, are, are really tapped in and you can like, see it in their bodies. You can like see that energy, like jump off of them and onto the person next to them. And especially when it’s in the dark and you, you sense, there is laughter there was enjoyment coming from someplace that you can’t see that is so phenomenal to me.
Speaker 2 00:31:07 And it reminds me that we like that it’s laughter is contagious, that there is, uh, also a sort of, uh, an, uh, I believe the term has anaerobic, uh, quality to it that it is like compressing your diaphragm and pushing air out and taking air in. And so we are sharing the same air. We are, uh, like metaphorically and also physically. And that is so deeply important to me. I don’t know when I’m on stage or when I’m writing on my laptop. I have no idea who is going to be, uh, receiving the jokes that I’m putting out. But what I do know is that we all have bodies that function in very similar ways. And, um, and so what I’m always trying to do is like to capture the mind, but also to like prod the body into, into movement. And that is a really exciting potential for me.
Speaker 1 00:32:05 You talked about how laughter moves like an energy, almost like a, a stone that you drop in a pond and the ripples of it just kind of flow out and, you know, I’m a speaker and, um, and a facilitator. And so when I’m in front of a group, I know exactly what you mean, and it’s not the laughter that I go for. It’s the, it’s the sparkle behind the eyes and is, and, and, um, you know, as a speaker that there, there is, there are few things as extraordinary as speaking and watching someone turn on watching someone connect and, uh, and, and the people around them don’t know that the person has connected, but you see it ripple out because we put out this energy, right? We put out this enthusiasm that people feel without even realizing it. And that’s the most amazing thing. And you watch the spark just catch from person to person, to person, to person, and with laughter it’s the same way. And it’s, it’s just a beautiful phenomenon. I love that. You brought that up.
Speaker 2 00:33:12 Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite things is I work extemporaneously a lot. I don’t write it. You know, when I’m live, I don’t write a lot of my material. And so I’m not a standup comedian. And so like as a standup comedian, that would be a dangerous thing, but it’s somebody who’s hosting shows in a humorous way. It’s fine. Um, time for me, I don’t know. I’m not giving anybody advice, but one of the things that’s exciting to me is knowing when I’m approaching a punchline, um, in something that I’m going to say, and there is like that, that anticipatory silence where we all sort of are plugged in and there might be, there might be people who are like, Oh, I bet you something funny is coming. Or there might be people who are like, I’m just listening to this story. And then I drop it in.
Speaker 2 00:33:53 And it is, it is like hearing the burst of laughter coming from nothing is, it is the most powerful experience that I, I I’ve ever had. And I, I chase it because what it says is that in that instant, we have all changed. We have all gone from this neutral or this anticipatory state to this active, energetic state. And, and I think that every time you laugh, it changes you. Um, and that is, that is so deeply important. It’s so deep. It’s so core to who I am as a person. Um, I have always seeking to be changed by laughter. I like, and it feels, it honestly feels like, like atomic, like it’s just something that like was, was not there. And then suddenly was the big bang and it can happen over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 00:34:48 Okay. So I need to break topic for a second because I’ve not been able to stop thinking about your Sylvia Plath wallpaper. It’s killing me. It is amazing. I wish the people. So if you’re watching this on YouTube, you know what I’m saying, but if you’re listening to the podcast, you can’t see, but, uh, go on YouTube. I just, it’s stunning. It’s stunning. I want to buy that wallpaper. So, uh, anyway,
Speaker 2 00:35:12 Well, it’s from Ellie Cashman. Um, and I apologize. So YouTube viewers, I don’t, I think I forgot that we were going to be, uh, on YouTube is why would I look better now if I, if I turn on a light, um, anyway, so apologies to everybody. Um, but, uh, yeah, it’s from Ellie Cashman and she’s a designer in the Netherlands. And when I, we moved into this house and built a pandemic, we decided the fat, um, uh, since no one would see anything, but the square around us, it might as well be, uh, like, you know, Rococo and
Speaker 1 00:35:45 It’s amazing. So anyway, okay. I just needed, I just couldn’t hold it anymore. I was about to burst. Um, so I want to talk about, you know, people who listened to this podcast know that spirituality is my jam. It’s, uh, how I try to connect with my audience, people who are kind of feeling this, um, little spark of awakening happen and they kind of want to dig deeper into it. So I want to ask you, um, do you think laughter is spiritual?
Speaker 2 00:36:12 So, I mean, I think anything that changes that shocks us out of our neutral state of sort of passive, uh, experience of life is spiritual. Um, and I think, I think, like I said, that there it is a step on a path, um, toward healing and that is very exciting. Um, and I think that taps into our spirit. Um, I, I also, you know, I think the, the more extreme emotions, anger obviously, but like sorrow grief, laughter joy. Those have, I, I think they, they function at a higher level. Um, and so much of our lives, I think for a lot of us are really just sort of locked into neutrality. We’re sort of going the wrong or doing your day, you’re annoyed, blah, blah, blah. Um, and getting to jump out of the neutral, um, is I think stunning and I think it can, I don’t know.
Speaker 2 00:37:13 I think, I think a lot, actually, when I think about laughter I think a lot about, uh, the one time a year, every year that I do bigger, me yoga. I always think that I’m a Bikram yoga person and unfortunately I’m not. Um, but I think, you know, it’s a very physically strenuous, it’s like 95 degrees in the room, a hundred percent humidity or whatever, I guess that’s water, but I don’t know. I don’t know what humidity is. Um, but it’s an hour and a half of strenuous exercise. And then at the end of it, you’re like completely drained. You’re soaking soaking with sweat and you lie down and you sort of just still in this position called Savasana and you’re supposed to just sort of like be there in the chorus pose. Um, and it is the most, every time I do it, uh, I think that I’m doing it wrong because it is, has the most energy, um, inside of it that I like I experienced the entire time because it is not neutral.
Speaker 2 00:38:11 It is a space where all of the feeling that I felt like that I’ve, that I’ve worked through in the class, everything that I’ve squeezed out of my muscles, everything that I’ve sort of been like pushing out of my brain space so I can just concentrate comes flooding back in and flooding and floating to the surface of myself. And I’m all that raw emotion. And it does that. That is the feeling that I think laughter and provoke as well, this feeling of being your true yes. Interior raw self in a really glorious way that has so much potential.
Speaker 1 00:38:46 Yes. So I mean, Oh my God, so many, so many thoughts and concepts came into my mind while you were talking and you know, I’ve, I’ve thought a lot about laughter over the years and how laughter uh, typically relates to surprise, right? Like you’re catch people off guard, but I want to kind of cross reference that with something that was so interesting that I learned. Um, I’m trying to think of which book I heard it in. Ah, I can’t remember. But um, this book said that when you are in grief, when you cry, when you’re mourning, um, it is a form of meditation. It’s a form of lower vibration meditation because meditation is losing yourself in the moment. And so by experiencing this utter grief, you are losing yourself in the moment and uh, nothing else exists, but the now in that moment, and so, uh, as you were speaking, I was like, wow, laughter is meditation. Um, fear like utter fear and terror is meditation because these are times when you get lost in the present, the ever present now and nothing else exists, but what you’re experiencing in that moment, and I love it. You actually mentioned in the beginning of the podcast that, um, laughter has something to do with being in the present. And uh, I love the idea of laughing as a form of meditation, um, which is the absolute fastest, most direct way to spiritual growth.
Speaker 2 00:40:27 I love that. That is vetted. That’s you put it so succinctly and then that totally matches with the experience that I have, the thing that I’m always chasing. And it’s also a nice, you know, for somebody like me, who you don’t have a lot of a fair amount of energy. I come from a long line of anxious people. And um, and so it’s sometimes hard to like sort of sit down with my meditation app or, you know, sort of just quiet my mind. And so sometimes I’m like, well let me just put on a comedy podcast. And, and that works in the same way. Like it really, it takes me someplace else. I go lapping alone in my car, listening to somebody else, uh, on the radio or on a podcast. It is, it is. I love it. I love thinking about it as meditation because I do come out of it and in a different state and that’s phenomenal.
Speaker 1 00:41:18 That’s right. And I mean like for the listeners, because so many of us, me too, even though I’ve been working at this, like meditation can be so difficult, but I got to tell you when you slept, Benita comes on like that is meditation because nothing exists. But me and Madge like dancing,
Speaker 2 00:41:38 Oh, don’t even get me started on like the, like the needle drop on songs. I mean, you know, like I, you know, I haven’t been, I haven’t been out of the house in a year, um, essentially, except for, to like the grocery grips I pick up. But the minute I’m able to go back to a club and I can hear Robin’s dancing on my own. I’m going to be in outer space. I’m going to be floating around Venus because of that, like that experience of just sort of tapping into, and it’s just raw emotion. It’s remembering the first time you ever heard it, it’s remembering, um, you know, whatever emotions it calls up, but it’s also being deeply present in, you know, and moving your body and letting it be inside of your body. I think laughter is the same thing I really do. That’s amazing.
Speaker 1 00:42:23 I wonder if we think about like going to the, going to the movies as an escape, but I wonder if it’s not an escape. I wonder if it’s like a surrender to the present, you know what, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:42:35 Oh, I love that. And here’s the thing. Okay. Let me give me my, like my small soapbox. One of the things that’s frustrating about the movie industry right now, not to like put on my Hollywood hat, but like one of the things that’s frustrated against that like, like just comedy is too straightforward. Comedies are not being greenlit as much. Like everything is sort of a temple and that’s exciting. You go to see a Marvel movie and you do, you know, everybody’s experiencing that tension, that excitement and that’s meditative as well, I suppose. And, but like there is something that is just so juicy and exciting about sitting in a theater full of people all go far, you know, bridesmaids or big business or, you know, something that is just
Speaker 1 00:43:17 Like a big business.
Speaker 2 00:43:20 I’m pulling the throwbacks it’s and like to go in and say like, I’m going to have my hands covered in popcorn, sitting in this weird seat that I don’t know what else has been in the seat. And I’m going to be in another meditative plane with these other people, these strangers that’s magic. That’s why movies are magic.
Speaker 1 00:43:38 Yes. Oh, I love that. That’s amazing. So, um, uh, Oh, thank you for that. As we wind down to the end of the podcast, um, I’d love to hear what you’re working on and uh, where life has brought you today.
Speaker 2 00:43:52 Yeah, well, I’m, I’m writing for a couple of TV series, um, Dickinson on Apple TV plus and um, um, better things on FX. Those seasons will presumably for Dickinson. I am, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:44:04 Almost I was thinking about the wallpaper and I was like, should I say Dickinson or not? Because I didn’t know if I say, should I say Dickinson or Sylvia Plath? And I’m like, I’m a Sylvia Plath, but I love it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:44:14 Yeah. The reason I have this particular wallpaper is because I watched the first season of Dickinson before I wrote for the show and I was like, I want that wallpaper. Um, so it’s, I love, I love that you clocked it. That’s amazing. So I’m writing those seasons that I wrote on will be out in 2022 on the respective platforms. Um, I have a young adult novel coming out, um, in 2022 as well. Um, that it’s great for readers 14 and up. I think adults will really enjoy it as well. It’s a very funny novel tentatively called Ferris. Um, but I’m not sure. So just Google my name. Um, and that’s, you know, that’s what I’m working on.
Speaker 1 00:44:48 Um, and if people want to soak up some of the craft that you have released, um, how do they find you? Where do they get it? Um,
Speaker 2 00:44:58 So the easiest way I I’m on social media, my Twitter handle is OurEric. Oureric. That’s also my Instagram. Um, I write a weekly humor newsletter if it comes out on Sundays, if you want to sort of way to end your week or begin your week, depending on how you see a Sunday, um, with, uh, with humor, um, uh, it’s a great place to do it. You can find that at REricThomas.substack.com or just going to my website Rericthomas.com.

Speaker 1 00:45:34 Okay. So I have some rapid fire questions that I like to, uh, I like to put my guests through. And, um, so are you ready for this? Sometimes you’ll have a question to answer sometimes you’ll just need to, uh, complete a sentence. Okay. Okay. All right. I see Godwin.
Speaker 2 00:45:52 Oh, Oh. I, uh, the first thought I had was when children laugh. So I’m going to go with that.
Speaker 1 00:45:56 Oh, I love that. Okay. What does prayer sound like?
Speaker 2 00:46:03 It sounds like a magic trick to me. Abracadabra. What is grace? Grace is a forgiveness for yourself, forgiveness for others, forgiveness for the universe.

Speaker 1 00:46:17 I find joy when
Speaker 2 00:46:21 I can recognize and celebrate what other people are proud of or happy about, or, um, what I wish for
Speaker 1 00:46:34 My favorite thing is:
Speaker 2 00:46:38 Cake.
Speaker 1 00:46:42 Yes, no comment. And last question. Uh, my definition of love is,
Speaker 2 00:46:49 Oh, absolute comfort. Uh, even in the midst of tribulation, um, or dispute, um, comfort. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:47:02 All right, Eric, thank you so, so much for joining me on refractive and, uh, and for sharing your light and your gift with us. And, um, it’s just been wonderful for me.
Speaker 2 00:47:14 No, thank you. It’s been wonderful for me. This is such a life-giving conversation. So thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 00:47:18 All right. Well, everybody, uh, enjoy your day and, uh, don’t forget. Aim your light. You have been listening to refractive podcast, and this is Johnny G. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, do me a favor, give it a share on social media, or if you’re in the podcast app, give it a rating. If you’re on YouTube click, like it really does make a difference in the search results. I am a speaker, coach and facilitator based in Washington, DC, but I work in person and remotely with people who are ready to step with clarity into their most authentic life. If I can be of service, reach out to me, JO****@****************ng.com have an amazing day. Be good to each other and always Aim your light.

This episode features a powerful meditation enhancer. Use this recording to kickstart a meditation and bring you deeper into your stillness. From there, you can take your meditation session in any direction that feels right.

For similar content, try this episode: Guided Meditation- What’s My Purpose?

Visit RefractiveCoaching.com or RefractivePodcast.com for more helpful information. Additional Content is also available on the Refractive YouTube channel found here.

This episode of Refractive features a raw, powerful, inspiring keynote speech. Johnny G tells the story of his experience with darkness, the loss of hope, and the unexpected people who pulled him back from oblivion. The keynote speech ends with a powerful lesson that enabled him to let go of the beliefs that kept him in chains.

For information on speaking, facilitation, and custom workshops, visit www.RefractiveCoaching.com/speaking.

Many Refractive Episodes are also posted on the Refractive Youtube Channel.

If this episode resonates with you, you’ll find similar messaging in these episodes: Surrender to Greatness, Making Peace with Our Dark Side, and The Ancient Truths of Acceptance and PLINKO.

Byron Katie, author and spiritual teacher, is referenced in the keynote address. You can find her website at byronkatie.com.

An automatic transcript follows. Please excuse any inaccuracies from the software.

Speaker 0 00:00:01 Ever since you can remember, you felt something in your chest telling you to move, to love, to speak, to try day after day. You pretend you don’t hear calling. Maybe you dismiss it as silliness or worse, but it’s there ready for you. my name is Johnny G and I invite you to join me on a journey of awakening as we dare to embrace our life. This is refractive . Hello. Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of refractive. When I look at all of the things, I think that I was

Speaker 1 00:00:55 Born to do the number one
Speaker 0 00:01:00 And calling that I feel is public speaking. Ever since I was a kid, I have enjoyed immensely getting on a stage and speaking before groups at people. And today I believe that ultimately, this will be the way that I serve the world. This will be the way that I offer the most help, the most support and shine, the most light out to my fellow humans. So when I get a chance to do some public speaking, it really is something that’s powerful for me. It taps into one of the most authentic and powerful places within me as a being. And I really get a lot of joy and energy out of it. So I want to share with you a keynote address. It is raw, it’s personal, it’s powerful. And I hope it helps you to question those times when you believe something that’s holding you back because often there’s a lot more to that story than what we’ve just accepted as truth. Enjoy.

Speaker 1 00:02:18 Who do you think you are? I’ll tell you that even two or three years ago, I would have told you that I was a deeply damaged person. And that goes all the way back to adolescence. You see high school for me was, uh, it was extraordinary in that, uh, it was just a really brutal four years and you know, lots of kids go through bullying. And, um, but I just got to tell you that, um, I made an easy target and I look back at those dark four years, walking down the corridors, I can see the pale blue lockers. I can see the rough brick details inside the building and those indestructable vinyl floor tiles that we’ve all seen in school buildings. And, um, and it was just a really uncomfortable place for me. And, uh, everybody knew it.

Speaker 1 00:03:47 And so as I went through this experience where starting at the bus stop, then on the bus, then in the school yard, then in homeroom, then in the corridor between classes, then in each class, then waiting for the bus. Then on the bus and every single moment, every day it was horrific. It brought me to the point of wanting to kill myself. And it brought me to a place where I no longer felt able to give myself to anyone. I just couldn’t let people see the loser that I believed I was because I knew that the 375 people in my class couldn’t be wrong.

Speaker 1 00:05:10 And while I might not have agreed with them on that first day, after a couple of days where it doesn’t let up, I folded that in to my identity and it began to color who I thought I was. So I drank because starting at the age of 16 and to be honest, even a few times before that, I guess really starting at 13, but drinking seriously from the age of 16. When I drank, I felt like a star. I felt sexy and smart. I felt like the people in the room, the bar wanted me to be there. I didn’t feel at best tolerated the way I felt before. And so I drank because once I got access to the way that felt there was, there was nothing that was going to stand between me and feeling that way.

Speaker 1 00:06:30 I was a binge drinker and, uh, I never wanted a glass of wine with dinner. I wanted to drink to get drunk. I wanted to drink, to feel free of the horror story I believed I was in. And the worst part was that I over time began to pick up that hammer that my classmates were hitting me with. And I began to hit myself with it. And it was only when I was drinking that I would stop. When I moved into my professional life, that became another way that I started to get relief from the, the torture that I was putting myself through. You see, when I, when I would go to work, I could make my boss proud and I would get a Pat on the back and appreciated and all of those things and my colleagues, the customers, and my boss made me feel for those minutes, a way that I couldn’t make myself feel, they made me think of myself as worthwhile and talented and good.

Speaker 1 00:08:03 And so at night on the weekends, whatever I would drink and I was a star. And during the day I would work hard and I was a star because let me tell you something, nothing makes you work harder than when your job is one of the only ways you feel good about yourself. And so I got promoted six times in eight years. And, uh, my company was so happy to develop me and invest in me because they saw how hard I worked, you know, but eventually these two, these two coping mechanisms, the drinking and the work they collided and my drinking started to get in. My drinking, started to cause problems for me at work. And when that happened, I had to choose one. And the more realistic choice for me was to pick my career. So I stopped drinking. It was as simple as that.

Speaker 1 00:09:08 And I continued on this path and I continued to do well at work, but all of a sudden I had no more medicine to make me feel okay, outside of work, I had nothing else to soothe me. Nothing else would work. And so I began to amplify other compulsive behaviors that took the place of alcohol. I began to binge eat. I shopped compulsively to make myself feel good, to make myself feel good, to make myself feel worthwhile. Like I had a life worth living. I would use sex and hookups and dating as a way to try to make myself feel good. And I really spun out of control in that area.

Speaker 1 00:10:02 I worked my butt off. I worked so hard. And so these are the ways that I stopped drinking and still found a way to muddle through life day after day. But here’s the thing. When I traded out one compulsion for four or five, man, my life got chaotic quick. And I spiraled into a really, really dark place. I found myself 400 and twenty-five pounds diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and bipolar disorder. I was $35,000 in credit card debt. I was alone. I couldn’t fly anymore. And I had a travel based job. I stuck out that job for a while, but the day my father died, I got that call from my sister. And, um, I was in New York. I lived in new Orleans and, uh, you see at my size at 425 pounds, I was so big that sometimes, usually the seatbelt extender would work, but not always.

Speaker 1 00:11:46 Some of them were too small. They aren’t all the same length. And, uh, when I would walk down the aisle, you could just see the terror in people’s eyes, hoping that I wasn’t going to sit next to them because, um, I took up a full seat and a half. So the day my father died, I had to book a window seat on a sold-out flight. And I never booked a window seat. I always booked an ILC because I could, you know, spill out into the aisle a little bit. Um, but this time it wasn’t possible.

Speaker 1 00:12:29 And there I was seated against the window and the middle seat was empty and someone walked up and they refused to take that seat. So that day, that same day, my father had died and I’m leaning against the window trying to black out the world in so much pain. And the person refused to take their seat on the sold-out flight. Now this wasn’t the first time this happened. This was the third time this had happened to me on the sold-out flight. But let me paint this picture for you. The flight attendant has to find a volunteer, willing to sit in that seat, or we can’t take off.

Speaker 1 00:13:28 So imagine what it feels like on the day your father died to have the flight attendant, begging people, going to petite people and begging them to come sit next to me, monster that I was now, it’s not really their fault. I mean, it wasn’t fair for them to have to be put in such an uncomfortable situation, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t painful. So she found someone and this small lady took the seat. I thanked her for being willing to sit next to me. And over the course of the entire flight, the flight attendant came by and continued to offer her gifts, food beverages, all in appreciation for being willing to take this seat. And it was in that moment that I decided, uh, I, I just couldn’t do this job anymore.

Speaker 1 00:14:39 So I quit right there. The next morning I called my boss and I said, I will never get on a plane again for you. And, uh, so I’ll give you 90 days. Notice if I can work from home and train my replacement, but that’s it. I won’t do it well there. I found myself, as I mentioned, $35,000 in debt, no savings. I moved into my mother’s house. There was no room. I would carry a mattress into the living room every night. And that’s where I would sleep attached to my C-PAP machine in my thirties, six prescriptions, a machine to make sure I didn’t choke on myself at night.

Speaker 1 00:15:36 No friends, no romance, no job. And I just, I was ready. I was ready to sink into darkness. I was just ready. I mean, there’s no bouncing back from that. Surely if someone could come back from that, they would film documentaries about that person. It would be extraordinary. There is no hope. I did end up going to a therapist. And as I walked into the therapist office, I hear a call from the back. This high pitched squeaky voice saying, just have a seat there. And they in the open office, I’ll, I’ll be in, in a second. Okay. So I sat there and a few minutes later, this elderly woman rolled herself in, in a wheelchair, close the door and squeaked at me how delighted she was to meet me.

Speaker 1 00:16:47 I can hear that voice right now. It’s it was on the phone when I made the appointment. I wasn’t sure what to make of it. So over the course of this session, I told her that I felt broken and damaged and that I just, I just needed to be restored to. I didn’t need to be happy. I just needed to be restored to a basic, realistic way to cope every day. And at some point over the course of that session, she looked at me and her eyes got big. And she said, Oh, my, your capacity to love is enormous. I see it. I see it shining out of you. It’s pink. It’s shimmery. Oh, I can see it. It’s beautiful. It’s very powerful. And I’m sitting there, I’m like this woman has lost her marbles. Like, what do you mean? You can see my love shining out and it’s pink and shimmery.

Speaker 1 00:17:57 But there was something that happened as she told me that she saw the love pouring out of me. I believed in just a small way that I was no, that I wasn’t damaged beyond repair. I reached out to a former boss in Orlando and I told her that I, uh, was going to restart my life. And I was going to figure out a way to just not hurt. Just have a reasonable life. She told me, Oh my gosh, please come to Orlando. Please come here. You can work for me. I can’t pay you what you’re used to making, but I can give you a little something and you can do projects for me, uh, while you job hunt, come on back.

Speaker 1 00:19:07 So I went back to Orlando. I had worked there probably, I don’t know, six years before that. And this company just rallied around me and found miscellaneous jobs for me to do, but the most incredible part of it, not only was I so appreciative. Oh, not to mention a former colleague opened up his house and let me stay. But not just that. The fact is there were about 10 people in that department where I was, and they rallied around me like pillars and just lifted me up all 425 pounds on me. And I’ll tell you, my spirit weighed a lot more than that. And they lifted me up and they were so happy to see me walk through the door every morning.

Speaker 1 00:20:20 And they wanted to sit next to me. They wanted to sign birthday cards for me, and they wanted to have lunch together. And I don’t know, I don’t know what happened. And I don’t know why, but these people loved me in a way that I couldn’t love myself. And I was only there for 11 months, but I’ll tell you what that boss and that team saved my life. It didn’t matter who I thought I was because they told me who they thought I was. They planted a seed. They gave me an idea and I don’t know what they were selling, but I bought it.

Speaker 1 00:21:34 I bought it. And that relaunched me. All of the sudden, I ended up in a job with more responsibility and more money than I had ever had before I moved to a city that I grew to love deeply. And I began to invest in finding out who I truly was behind all of these awful stories that I believed about myself. Who was I? Why was it that those 10 or 12 people back in Orlando saw something magnificent and worthy of love in me? Why couldn’t I see that? So I started to dig. It was painful. It took years.

Speaker 1 00:22:52 I learned that I was a rageful person. I would have told you there was no, I would have argued with you that I was not rageful. I learned that I was a horrible gossip. I’ve learned that I was hypersensitive and insecure. I learned so much about the triggers, but also the drivers and the values in me that made me who I was. And that colored my day. And just like little paving stones that lead the way to your neighbor’s front door. I moved from exercise to exercise from teacher to teacher, from book to book, to podcast, a podcast, all of these focused on helping me learn who I was at my core.

Speaker 1 00:23:50 And it all culminated with an extraordinarily powerful teaching from a lady by the name of Byron Katie, Byron, Katie, look her up, do yourself a favor. And she taught me that all suffering, not all pain, all suffering originates from a story that we believe that argues with reality. I’ll say it again. All suffering begins with a story that we believe that argues with reality. My classmates shouldn’t have treated me this way. That’s a story I believed I shouldn’t be this overweight. That’s a story I believed it’s unfair. I shouldn’t have had the life. I had the story. I believed all of these things were beliefs that argued with reality. My classmates shouldn’t have treated me this way. Okay. It’s what happened. It was what happened.

Speaker 1 00:25:49 Maybe I shouldn’t have treated myself that way. Maybe I shouldn’t have accepted that. Maybe I should have gotten help. Maybe I shouldn’t have believed what they said about me, because I’m going to tell you that the pain may cause me over four years was nothing compared to the 15 years that followed the pain. I caused myself. I shouldn’t have done that to myself. It has nothing to do with them life. Wasn’t fair. Yeah. I believe that. And when I believe it, it hurts. Is it not fair? I don’t know their causes and effects. It might be things I don’t understand. But when I believe it’s not fair. It hurts. When I stopped thinking about how unfair everything is, I can let it go. So it’s my thoughts. It’s my belief systems that say reality is wrong. And shouldn’t be what it is. Those are the things that hurt me. My father shouldn’t have died that pur that woman should have wanted to take the seat next to me on the plane, that flight attendant shouldn’t have bribed the other lady with drinks for being willing to sit next to me. These are things I believed. And when I believe them, they hurt.

Speaker 1 00:27:21 And let me tell you today. When I have a thought about myself, that is not positive. I investigate that bad boy. Is it true? Is it true? So let me ask you, I’m going to go back to the first words that I said today. Who do you think you are? Who do you think you are? Do you think you’re fat? Do you think you’re broken? Do you think you’re a mom whose kid should respect her more? Do you think you’re someone who’s underappreciated at work? Do you think your sales goals are unreasonable and you’re stuck in that situation?

Speaker 1 00:28:20 Do you believe you’re going to be alone forever? Do you believe if you demand what you really are worth? You’ll have to experience it by yourself. What do you believe? Who do you think you are? Because I have news for you. The person you think you are is the person you are. Let me do for you. What that therapist did for me. Let me shake you out of your fog. You don’t deserve to live a life in that fog. You were born for magnificence. You were born for glory and joy. And if you don’t have glory and joy in a magnificent life, you are the only person who can fix it.

Speaker 1 00:29:25 You are the only person powerful enough to stop yourself. The only thing strong enough to cut a diamond is a diamond. No one can hold you back. No one can stop you. Nothing is impossible. Nothing is impossible unless you make it. So each one of us creates the world we live in. Do you believe the political chaos is ruining society? Okay. Well then enjoy your world of chaos because that’s the world you’ve created. Do you believe the fighting that people are doing is your business. Okay? You can have that. The universe will give you what you want. Is that what you want? Do you want to live in that, in that world? Go for it. You can have it. Or do you believe the fighting and the anxiety and the stress? Do you believe that’s their business and not yours? Because the minute you believe it’s not your business to get involved in that fighting the minute you drop it and you have peace. And so I’m going to leave you with a challenge.

Speaker 1 00:30:56 The challenge is the next time you absorb and accept a thought that is negative. I’ll never make that sales goal. No one wants to go out with me. I can’t save up money. I’m going to be alone for the rest of my life. I really deserved it. The next time you believe a thought like that, just, just investigate it. Just look at it and say, is it true? Is it true? Very rarely, should a negative thought ever be true. And if you can’t come up with an answer other than yes, then go to someone who loves you and ask them, do you think this is true? And let them do for you? What you can do for yourself. Let them shine. The light on you, that you were born to shine on yourself. And you will find over time that you will blow brighter and you will cause ripples in the people around you that will never reach the shore. That’s what you were born for. It’s your superpower. Who do you think you are? I know who you are already. It’s time to find out.

Speaker 0 00:32:58 This is Johnny G and you have been listening to refractive podcast. If you enjoyed today’s content, please subscribe. And either like the episode or give it a rating, it helps to prioritize this content in search engine results. I’m a coach speaker and facilitator based in Washington, DC. I work in person and remotely with those who are ready to step into an authentic life and a fulfilling career. If I can be of service, visit refractive coaching.com or email me at jo****@****************ng.com. I’d love to hear your comments and feedback on the podcast, or maybe you have a topic you’d like to hear. You can find me on social media, on Facebook and YouTube @refractivecoaching and on Twitter and Instagram. @refractivelife. As you go through your day, I hope you remember the magnificence that is your birthright. Be good to each other, and don’t forget to aim your light.

Humanity has battled its darker impulses since the dawn of free will. Why haven’t we learned to drop our dark side? In this episode Johnny G covers the relative nature of good vs. bad, the impact of love and fear on our behaviors, the role of awareness and balance in correcting our path, finding self-compassion, and a powerful method for regaining balance of our energy after a negative experience.

Episode Resources:

The Poem “Autobiography in Five Short Chapters by Portia Nelson can be found here.

The Impersonal Life by Joseph Benner is an extraordinary spiritual text. It’s for sale wherever you buy books- I really enjoy the audiobook version I got from Audible- but there is a free PDF version here.

To learn more about Refractive Coaching visit www.refractivecoaching.com

Caroline Myss’ books can be found wherever spiritual books are sold. I enjoyed Anatomy of the Spirit and Sacred Contracts. She has an especially good episode on Oprah’s Supersoul Conversation podcast, which you can find on Apple Podcasts by clicking here.

If you enjoyed this type of topic, you might also enjoy these Refractive Podcast episodes: Surrender to Greatness and From Addiction to Self Acceptance.

An automatic transcript follows; please excuse inaccuracies from the transcription software.

Speaker 0 00:00:02 Ever since you can remember, you felt something in your chest telling you to move, to love, to speak, to try day after day. You pretend you don’t hear calling. Maybe you dismiss it as silliness or worse that it’s there ready for you, and we’ll wait for you. And as long as you, my name is Johnny G and I invite you to join me on a journey of awakening as we dare to embrace our light. This is refractive. Hello everybody.
Speaker 1 00:00:45 This is Johnny G with another episode of refractive today’s topic is one that was very important to my own spiritual journey. I want to talk about how to deal with our darkness. Um, the more base qualities in us and some people call it the shadow. Um, how is it that we can come to a place of harmony between the ideals of personal and spiritual growth and the tendency that is there to lie, to cover up our shame or, uh, to take things that don’t belong to us or violence. So that’s really what we’re going to talk about today. I hope it’s going to be a topic of some value for you as well. I want to say right off the bat that this is my philosophy and it may not apply for you. I want to encourage you to take what has value and discard everything else.
Speaker 1 00:01:40 What I will say is that I’ve thought a lot about this. I’ve meditated on it. I’ve read a lot about it. And they, these are some conclusions that I’ve come up with that have helped me to move forward in peace with my human nature and to stop rejecting myself rejecting these parts of myself that I used to believe were faulty. Um, but that I no longer feel that way today. And because that ability to stop rejecting parts of myself has been so valuable. I felt that it was a worthwhile episode to dig a little bit deeper into. So let’s go, we all have parts of us that we would consider to be dark. It is a part of human nature and, uh, we tend to seek to get rid of it to suppress it. We’ve all heard stories about people who were raised in a very strict household and the moment they were able to get out from that pressure.
Speaker 1 00:02:46 Uh, they went crazy and really sowed a lot of wild oats. And, um, this is an important lesson for us to learn about the nature of balance. Another thing that is essential to the philosophy I’ve developed about, um, dealing with my light and dealing with my darkness is the concept of love versus fear. I’ve talked about love and fear being on two ends of a continuum before, in other episodes, it was Caroline Miss, M Y S S who is a, she’s a spiritual teacher. She’s the first person I ever heard talk about it this way, but ever since I heard her, um, my ears perked up when other spiritual teachers had talked about it too. So it is a fairly widely discussed concept in spiritual circles. So the concept of love and fear States that we can never be moving towards both love and fear at the same time.
Speaker 1 00:03:52 So I’m going to repeat that we can never be moving towards both love and fear at the same time, we can go back and forth very quickly, but in each moment we are either moving towards love or moving towards fear. Now what’s interesting is that this is not love versus hate. The idea is that love is the source of all high vibration, high energy, positive behaviors. And that fear in its hundred different forms is always the origin of some negative, low energy, low vibration behavior. One key way to define love, because when we say love in our society, we think about, uh, relationships and romance and family. Um, but each of those forms of love is one facet of the greater concept of unconditional love. And to be honest, most of what we call love, especially when it comes to friendships and romantic relationships is a, uh, I’ll say it is a very complicated form of love.
Speaker 1 00:05:22 Now, love in its most basic form is full acceptance of the now full acceptance of what is, okay. Let me give you a second because I know that this is probably not a definition of love that you’ve heard before, but love is full acceptance, and I’m talking about the most purest, the most pure form of love, unconditional love. So when I say love, the definition of love is full acceptance. It means that what is happening right now, what is before me, whether it is a person, whether it is a situation I do not desire it to change. I am in perfect harmony with what is right now, and I have no urge to make it different. It is perfect. I am perfect. And we harmonize perfectly.
Speaker 1 00:06:29 That is, it’s a very interesting, uh, and some might say revolutionary definition of love. And although it is a, it’s certainly not mainstream, it resonates with me. I really feel that as I’ve become more mindful, and as I’ve learned to sink more into the present moment and stop fighting and start looking for acceptance, um, this really makes a lot of sense to me. Now, if we go to the other end of the continuum and we talk about fear, fear is the full rejection of what is now. This is not quite as complicated to understand as love equals acceptance. Obviously, if we have a fear about something, we need it to be different. We want it to be different. I’m scared of poverty. That means I want my situation to be different, or I, I don’t want to walk down towards this path. I’m scared of the death of someone I’m scared of losing someone.
Speaker 1 00:07:40 I’m scared for my safety. It means what’s happening right now is not in harmony with me. I am not comfortable with the way things are. And so the same way that this love slash acceptance can be very subtle and minor. It could be walking down a path and simply accepting what the path looks like. Or this love could be more intense seeing a garden that really makes my spirits soar, and I feel completely energized by it, right? So the same way that there’s this range of love from almost neutral to intense, the same thing happens with fear, right? So if fear, the lack of acceptance, the full rejection of what is it could start with. Um, I don’t like what someone is wearing. Where’s the fear in that this person’s views, don’t jive with me. Is there some sort of way that we are separate?
Speaker 1 00:08:48 Is there some sort of way that, uh, my opinions and my taste is not, what does it say if I wouldn’t dress that way, but he’s dressed that way. These may not be conscious thoughts, but when we don’t like something, it is rooted in some sort of fear. And so it can be very subtle, close to neutral, and it can go all the way to the most dramatic, like I have to kill this person because I’m in danger, right? So, uh, an extremely dramatic example like that, or I need help in this moment because I can’t handle what’s happening to me, right? So there is a range of love and a range of fear. And the reason that I’ve gone through all of these details is that before we talk about our darkness, it’s important that we, uh, well, me, I’m talking about me. It’s important. It was important that I redefined the concepts of good and bad because good and bad are relative.
Speaker 1 00:10:04 If you remember Les Miserables, John Bell, John was arrested for stealing bread to feed his starving family. And so the whole conflict of that story is that, was he a criminal? Did he deserve to be punished? And the fact is, according to the law, he was a criminal. That is true. Does he deserve to be locked away? Would you see that’s different? It depends. And so with any type of behavior that we would look at as negative, whether you’d call it a sin, a crime, something that offends you, anything that you have a negative reaction to it’s relative that same behavior that makes you feel one way can make another person feel completely different. And who has the authority to be, right?
Speaker 1 00:11:12 No one has the authority to be right. Each person gets to be right. No one can tell a person that they’re wrong about their moral judgment of a behavior because it’s it’s individual. And this is why we have juries, right? Because two different people may see the same act in two very different ways. So the whole, uh, again, I know this has been a lot of setup for this topic, but how can I deal with darkness? If I think I’m bad? How can I grow in light? If I believe I’m dark, I need to come to a way, a new paradigm of dealing with light and darkness. And so this is the concept of, of all of that. So when I say positive or negative, good or bad, what I’m really talking about in this philosophy is love or fear. So now that I’ve set that up, we’re all speaking the same language. So what does this have to do with dealing with our dark side? After a quick break, we’re going to go into some steps of how to work with and come to peace with the darkness inside. We’ll be back in just a minute.
Speaker 2 00:14:13 Welcome
Speaker 1 00:14:13 Back to refractive podcast. We are talking today about how to deal with our darkness. And so I mentioned before the break that there are a couple of steps to follow, uh, at least what I found through my spiritual path in order to come to peace with my darkness and to no longer see it as an obstacle for my own spiritual growth.
Speaker 2 00:14:37 Step one. Well, points
Speaker 1 00:14:40 One, let me say not step one. The first point is that it is impossible to remove your dark side.
Speaker 2 00:14:51 I
Speaker 1 00:14:52 Like to think of it as a sheet of paper. Can you remove one side of a piece of paper? I mean, I could, I’m, I’m holding for those of you just listening to audio, I’m holding a piece of paper. So, um, I can maybe shave down one side of the piece of paper, but all it does is create a new version of that side. And if I continue to shave down, I have nothing. So, um, my point is that this paper either has two sides, or it has zero sides. There is no one side. And so this is the concept of polarity. You see this in religions and spiritual concepts, all through history, the idea of the yin and yang, the idea of birth from destruction and death, that there are always these two sides that are equal and opposite, and neither is really good and neither is really bad.
Speaker 1 00:16:00 It’s all. It all depends. So before we say, I really want to, uh, eliminate my, um, my tendency to, to, to, to be what I’d call a bad person. Um, it’s important to realize that you could never, you could never, you can’t just like I can’t take away aside of that paper. I can not take away my darkness because every dark trait is equal opposite part inseparable of a light trait. I’ll go into more about this in, uh, in, in, in a future step. I’ll talk about how to take this idea of polarity and apply it to particular situation. So hold onto that, tuck it in, right? Because we’re going to need to return to this, to this concept. And just a moment, the second point is to look for balance. So if we’re, we’re looking to deal with our darkness and, um, to come into some sort of peace in this situation of growing spiritually, growing personally, becoming a better person yet also having a natural tendency to, uh, towards self-centeredness and other things we look for balance instead of trying to eliminate something that can’t be eliminated.
Speaker 1 00:17:30 We look to reduce, reduce the swing of the pendulum. We know that a pendulum, uh, tends to, uh, in control in a controlled environment, tends to swing equally from left to right, right from one direction to the other. And so we look to do is to lessen the swinging of the pendulum so that as we get good, we stay within a reasonable environment. We don’t become extremist in our search to be good. We don’t need to, uh, you know, we don’t all need to, uh, become mother Theresa and everything, right? Our life is balanced and we also don’t swing too far to the, to the bad side, to the fear side. So by maintaining balance, life feels more calm. So when a situation triggers me, it’s okay to get upset, but maybe I don’t yell and scream and maybe I don’t resort to violence. Right.
Speaker 1 00:18:36 When I feel, when I start to fall in love with someone, I tell them, I show them, uh, but maybe I don’t, uh, maybe I don’t buy them a house today. You know, I keep everything in a reasonable range because balance is key. So becoming aware, and this is a central point today for this podcast. So listen up becoming aware of an area that is out of balance is 100% required to change it. You cannot change a situation that you do not have awareness around. So I, I wrote this in a simple formula awareness plus desire to change equals change awareness, plus desire to change equals change if I have awareness, but no desire. There is no change if I have a desire to change, but no awareness of what’s happening. I can’t change.
Speaker 1 00:19:55 It’s important to have some compassion around this because while sometimes once we become aware of a negative characteristic, we can just simply stop doing it. That’s not in my experience, the most frequent occurrence, what is more likely that once I become aware of a situation that causes me pain, my behavior, my reactions, my, my, um, reflexes toward the situation creates disharmony. Once I become aware over time, the situation changes. It can take quite a long time. There is a poem called autobiography in five short chapters. And I learned about it from a mentor of mine. And since then, once again, it’s popped up over the months as I’ve kind of done some spiritual work. And, um, so I want to share it with you. I’m going to read it. Uh, so again, it’s called autobiography in five short chapters by Portia Nelson, and I’ll link to it in the show notes.
Speaker 1 00:21:15 One, I walked down the street, there’s a deep hole in the sidewalk. I fall in. I am lost. I am helpless. It isn’t my fault. It takes forever to find a way out to, I walked down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I still don’t see it. I fall in again. I can’t believe I’m in the same place. It isn’t my fault. It still takes a long time to get out three. I walked down the same street. There’s a deep hole in the sidewalk. I see it there. I still fall in it’s habit. It’s my fault. I know where I am. I get out immediately for, I walked down the same street. There’s a deep hole in the sidewalk. I walk around it. Five. I walked down a different street.
Speaker 1 00:22:27 I have goosebumps. It’s so powerful because that really is how it is. We know something’s wrong. We continue to do it because it takes time and not giving us the time we need to make these changes. That’s a lack of compassion and we all deserve compassion. We deserve self-compassion all right. So continuing, the third point to make is that when we find ourself behaving in a way that we would call bad negative, fear-based however you want to call it. This signal that triggered our darkness is neutral. The situation that was the origin point of our reaction, that was negative is neutral.
Speaker 1 00:23:29 So let me, uh, let me explain what happened to me is neutral. I have the power to choose to respond in a love-based way, or I can respond in a fear-based way. Every single situation that could ever possibly happen has a response to it. That would be love-based or fear-based the most loving thing that could ever happen to you. You could still respond from a place of fear, the most terrifying thing that could ever happen to you. You could still respond in a, from a place of love. So again, the signal that triggered our darkness is neutral. Let me give you an example for my own life. I am so sensitive to the perception that I’ve been disrespected. This can take place. If someone cuts in front of me in line, this often happens when I’m driving. If someone has their high beams on and they’re blinding me, or if someone doesn’t yield or cuts me off or, uh, jumps in front of me in a way that makes me have to, uh, apply the brakes. Um, there’s this part of me that interprets it as disrespect. So this situation in effect, in effect is neutral. Did the person disrespect me that assumes intention, maybe the person had a wife in labor in the backseat of the car. How do I know maybe the person is going to be fired if they’re late to work one more time. And there was an emergency this morning, you know, um, it is not accurate for me to see the situation as disrespectful towards me.
Speaker 1 00:25:54 It could be inconsiderate, but that’s not the same thing I’m not considered, but that doesn’t mean that I was proactively disrespected. So what happened is neutral. I get to decide whether I respond in love. So in this car situation, what does a response that’s love-based look like. I love myself and I care for my safety. I love others around me and I care for their safety. And therefore I maintain full control and calm of my car. Obviously, there is a person who is not in a state of peace right now.
Speaker 2 00:26:39 Um, and so, because I
Speaker 1 00:26:44 Am in a state of peace, I will allow that person to live his or her life without interference with me. Lord knows that person must be going through something. And I do not need to add to that. Person’s stress. If I am reacting from a place of love, I can simply go on with my day. The fear-based reaction is I will not be stepped on like that. How dare this person, I’m going to turn on my high beams. I will not be cut off like that. I’m going to speed up. I’m going to pass this person because I am not somebody who’s chump.
Speaker 1 00:27:36 That’s it? Right? These are the two reactions. So the person’s behavior towards me is in effect neutral. It’s my decision that can be either love-based or fear-based. This can apply to any situation. And so let’s combine this with the awareness that we talked about in the previous point. If I am aware that I have a tendency to react negatively, when I perceive disrespect from others, then when someone does something that I would have called disrespect before I can be aware of the flood of energy, you’ve all felt it, right? This rush of, of, of, of hot lava that fills your torso, this anger that fills your torso. I can see it. And maybe just like with the autobiography in five short chapters, maybe for the first couple of times, I still get upset. I press on the gas. I’m going to take my revenge on this person, but eventually the awareness plus the desire to change equals change. So, Oh my God, I feel the heat rising up in my torso. Okay. I’m just not going to give into it. I’m going to take a breath and go on with my day because I love myself. So I’m not going to jeopardize my safety. I love other people, so I don’t need to contribute to someone’s already bad day and I don’t need to scare the other drivers around me. That’s selfish. So I’m just going to go on with my day and I’m going to wish the best for that person awareness plus desire to change eventually equals change.
Speaker 1 00:29:44 The fourth step that Earth’s not a step. I keep saying that the fourth point to talk about it is, uh, it’s another nugget of wisdom that I’ve heard from several different spiritual sources. And there is nothing that, that, that touches my heart more than when I find the same wisdom from several sources. It’s like, I just feel that my angels and the spiritual guides and my, my, my definition of God source higher power is communicating with me in that moment. And so, um, the concept is that when we react to a situation in a way that is fear based, our energy becomes contaminated. Now you don’t need to believe me, just remember what it feels like to do something out of fear or anger. You feel like this residue of gross newness inside your body, right? Your blood pressure goes up, your, your, maybe your throat feels tight.
Speaker 1 00:31:01 You have a knot in your stomach. You’re short tempered with people for the next hour or two. You don’t want to be like that, but you can’t help it because there’s this residue of what happened. The point is that whenever we behave in a fear-based way, we put our energy out of balance, our life energy, and it is important at some point. And most of these, uh, most of these spiritual teachings and practices say do it at the end of the day, dedicate just a few minutes at the end of the day, to, um, go in through a mental list of the times today, when we have reacted in a fear-based way,
Speaker 1 00:31:49 Where we angry, dishonest, resentful, um, do we do something in a fear-based way? So the, uh, the way to clear your energy and release this residue, that’s in you from this, from this gross miss is to remember what happened. So I’m going back to my car. I’m driving down the highway. This person cut me off. And I remember I had this rush of hot, of just heat, fill my torso. And like, I felt this like burning desire to, to show this person that I will not be disrespected. I will not be someone else’s doormat. And, uh, and so I feel this heat and I go, and I put my foot on the accelerator and I, I display my dominance. And I remember what it feels like, right? Cause you have to remember what happened. I can feel the steering wheel. I can feel the tenseness in my neck and my shoulders.
Speaker 1 00:33:04 I feel the hot energy inside of me. And you live that experience again just for a few seconds, but be thorough. Then you reimagine you re-imagined because again, everything is a continuum. Everything is polarity. Everything has its equal opposite. So in order to put my energy back in balance, I go back to my mind and I say, what would the love-based reaction have been? I would understand that this person is not in a position of peace right now. I would want to take care of myself and take care of my fellow drivers. So I imagine it I’m sitting in the car, I feel the steering wheel. I feel the seat against my back and my legs. The person cuts me off.
Speaker 1 00:34:03 And my reaction is, Oh, that poor person, it must be having a rough day. Go ahead, buddy. It’s as simple as that, it’s as simple as that to release the film of negativity and balance your energy. And you would go incident by incident, by incident throughout your day. And you do this at the close of every day. And this is how you keep your positive energy glowing and flowing. And, uh, and you keep your capacity to be of service to others at a higher level. So that is something that I do every single night. I actually have a phone partner. Uh, Hey, how are you doing? And uh, if she’s listening, I have a phone partner in every night at eight 30, we have a call and we go through together. Um, where did we miss the Mark today? And, uh, you know, over time, the list gets shorter day by day. It really does. All right, the next point in this list of, of how to come to terms with the darkness and instead of seeking to, uh, exile it and, uh, tear it out of our bodies, um, to learn to work with it. The next point is compassion and love, compassion, and love. It takes time to change. It takes time to build the slivers of faith that allow you to no longer need to scramble to protect your ego.
Speaker 1 00:35:56 I’m going to say this again. It takes time to build the slivers of faith that released the need for us to scramble, to protect our ego fear is the absence of faith, right? If I believed all was well, if I believe this moment was exactly as it should be. If I accept this moment, that it is exactly as it should be, that all is well, then I have no need to wish for this situation to be different. I have no need to resort to fear. So it takes time to build faith that allows you to let go of a fear based reaction.
Speaker 0 00:36:45 Okay?
Speaker 1 00:36:48 So the last point that I wanted to bring up in this situation, in this topic today, it’s I just, I want to ask you when you get angry, when you tell a white lie, when you overindulge in some sort of compulsion, do you think that you displease God, whatever you call it, source the universe, God, higher, power, whatever. Do you think that you displease God when you make a mistake? Do you think that the hand of the creator was absent from your behavior? Do you think that you do anything outside of the will and permission of God? Do you take one breath that is not within the will of the higher power? Does one thought ever arise in your mind that wasn’t passed through the filter of God first?
Speaker 1 00:38:20 Do you think you’re controlling your thoughts? Do you think you’re responsible for what is happening? Do you think you’re responsible for the type of anger that’s inside of you? Do you think you’re responsible for the darkness that’s inside of you? I would have said yes to every single one of those questions. Every single one is God managing my breath. No, no. That’s I would have said no. God started the engine and let me go. It’s up to me to take care of myself. It’s up to me to go to the doctor. It’s up to me to, uh, to do this. It’s up to me to control my thoughts. It’s up to me to not be in traffic. If I worked harder, I wouldn’t be in traffic. If I got up earlier, I wouldn’t be in traffic. If I do more, my family will have more. So I believed that I was the one pulling the strings and that when things didn’t work the way I had idealized them, that it was my fault.
Speaker 1 00:39:44 And through this journey of awakening that has exploded me from the inside over the past three years, I’ve come to realize that my definition of God is limitless. God is everything everywhere. There is nothing that is not God. Even what we think of as nothing. The space between subatomic particles. That’s still God. So do I displease God when I get angry? I don’t believe that anymore. I don’t believe that anymore. That’s where I am today. So I want to share an excerpt with you from a book that has been possibly, well, I don’t know, maybe the most influential book of my entire spiritual journey. I mean, possibly the number one it’s called the impersonal life by Joseph Benner, the impersonal life by Joseph Benner. So I’m going to read this for you. And, uh, I know that by the time I finished reading this, I’m going to be vibrating inside with energy because it just, it causes my spirit to rise.
Speaker 1 00:41:26 Here we go to test your strength and more often to show you what the misuse of my power does to you. I, at times allow you to commit a sin in so-called or to make a mistake. I even permit you to become inflated with the sense of my presence within you. When it manifests as a consciousness, my power, my intelligence, my love let you take these and use them for your own personal purpose, but not for long for not being in strong enough to control them. They soon take the bit in their teeth. Runaway with you, throw you down in the mire and disappear from your consciousness. From the time being always. I am there to pick you up after the fall. Although you do not know it at the time, first straightening you out, then starting you onward again by pointing out the reason for your fall.
Speaker 1 00:42:29 And finally, when you are sufficiently humbled causing you to see that these powers accruing to you by the conscious use of my will, my intelligence and my love are allowed. You only for use in my service and not at all for your own personal ends to the cells of your body, the muscles of your arm, think to set themselves up as having a separate will from your will or a separate intelligence from your intelligence. No, they no, no intelligence, but yours no will from yours. After a while, it will be that you will realize you were only one of the cells of my body and that your will is now not your will, but mine, that what consciousness and what intelligence you have are mine wholly and that there is no such person as you, you personally, being only a physical form containing a human brain, which I created for the purpose of expressing in matter an idea, a certain phase of which I could express best only in that particular form.
Speaker 1 00:43:50 Yes, all ideas and all desires come thus for me, they are my ideas and my desires, which I inspire in your mind and heart in order to bring them through you into outer manifestation, you have no ideas of your own and could not possibly have a desire that came from other than me for I am all that is therefore all desires are good. And when thus understood unfailingly, come in to speak and complete fulfillment, you may wrongly my desires. My urge is from within and seek to use them for your own selfish purpose. But even while permitting this, they still fulfill my purpose for it is only by letting you misuse my gifts and by the suffering such misuse brings that I can make you into the clean and selfless channel I require for the perfect expression of my ideas.
Speaker 1 00:45:05 Thank you so much for tuning in today and, uh, as always be good to each other and aim your light. This is Johnny G and you have been listening to refractive podcast. If you enjoyed today’s content, please subscribe. And either like the episode or give it a rating, it helps to prioritize this content in search engine results. I’m a coach speaker and facilitator based in Washington, DC. I work in person and remotely with those who are ready to step into an authentic life and a fulfilling career. If I can be of service, visit refractive coaching.com or email me at jo****@****************ng.com. I’d love to hear your comments and feedback on the podcast, or maybe you have a topic you’d like to hear. You can find me on social media, on Facebook and YouTube at refractive coaching and on Twitter and Instagram. I’m at refractive life. As you go through your day, I hope you remember the magnificence that is your birthright. Be good to each other. And don’t forget to aim your light.

Why does it seem so hard to live a happy life? Join Johnny G and guest Jamir Smith as they take a deep dive into the buidling blocks for happiness and examine how we wall ourselves off from joyful living. This episode is full of laughter, tips, and solid advice for stepping happily into the future we deserve.

Find the YouTube video version of this episode here.

Jamir references two books, find links here. We are not compensated for any sales via this link:

All Boys Aren’t Blue by George Johnson

A Promised Land by Barack Obama

You can find Jamir’s podcast, The Jamir Smith Show on Apple Podcasts here, or you can search by name on other platforms like Google Podcasts and Soundcloud. Find him on Instagram @Jamir_Smith

For other episodes focused on living an invigorating life, try these: The Courage to Change Careers and Surrender to Greatness.

For more information on Refractive, visit RefractiveCoaching.com or RefractivePodcast.com.

Find the transcript below performed by automated software; please forgive any errors or misunderstandings by the software.

Speaker 0 00:00:01 Ever since you can remember, you felt something in your chest telling you to move, to love, to speak, to try day after day. You pretend you don’t hear calling. Maybe you dismiss it as silliness or worse that it’s there ready for you, and it will wait for you. And as long as you, my name is Johnny G and I invite you to join me on a journey of awakening as we dare to embrace our light. This is refractive.
Speaker 1 00:00:47 Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of refractive podcast today. I am so happy to introduce you to a dear friend of mine named Jamir Smith. And just a bit of his background. Jamir was born and raised in Durham, North Carolina, and as an only child, he learned the value of stepping into creativity at an early age. He worked in the luxury fashion and design industry for over 15 years and built some pretty strong relationships along the way. He’s currently a podcast host. You can find the Jamir Smith show podcast on your favorite platform. And it provides an outlook on lifestyle, fashion interviews with entrepreneurs and tastemakers and other people who are leaving their footprints on this world. He has had some really great interviews on his podcast. I highly recommend it to you. It’s positive, uplifting, easy to absorb material. Um, one of his most memorable interviews was with a relative of James Baldwin and digging deep into the experience of knowing such an important playwright, uh, on a deeper level. So Jamir, welcome to refractive. I’m so happy that you’re with us today,
Speaker 2 00:02:00 Johnny, I am so excited to be a part of your platform. One, because you know, you touched on a couple of things earlier about having a show that is a lifestyle brand, and that’s how I look at you and you are, and you can encompass what lifestyle brands mean. And I think, you know, when I interviewed you last week or the week before a lot of listeners, and I didn’t want to tell you until we started recording said they enjoyed you so much because you provided an honest and real conversation. And so thank you for allowing me to be a part of your, your attire, beautiful platform.
Speaker 1 00:02:38 Oh, absolutely. Listen. I, I, you know, I may not have the, uh, the most famous contacts in my address book. Um, but I’m very picky on who comes on my podcast and I protect what I see as the integrity of our mission here on refractive. And that’s to help people step into their own authentic power and live their best lives. Um, so many of us and I include myself in that have been held back by our own illusions of, um, of should, you know, and I just don’t subscribe to that anymore. And I believe that my mission is to shine as best I can so that other people can also want to shine. And that’s why I bring people like you on my podcast. I’m glad that you’re here and our topic today. Um, it felt like a really natural fit immediately when you and I agreed to, uh, partner on podcasts. I knew that I wanted to focus on joy and that’s because at the root of our relationship back a million years ago, when we first got into the, to each other’s orbits, there was so much laughter around the moments we spent together. And it just, I just felt that connection of lightheartedness with you. And, uh, I don’t know. I think that we live in a world that a lot of people see is very heavy today and it’s time to bring some lightheartedness in there.
Speaker 2 00:04:12 You know, when I think about our relationship and really the bond that we have really built, I think that, you know, I would retreat sometimes to see your office just because I needed to get away and to just talk and to just laugh and talk about the craziness of the world. But I think what our relationship was built on is laughter enjoy, but also really looking through anything that was going on and trying to find the positivity of it. And that’s exactly what you have always been. And it’s such a beautiful light to see this is who you are continuously becoming. So absolutely
Speaker 1 00:04:50 Thank you, Jamir. So we’re going to focus today on unlocking joy. And I was really specific in picking the wording for this, um, unlocking because my, my personal belief system says that joy and happiness, and even though there are subtle differences between the definitions of those two words, I’m going to use them interchangeably today for simplicity. But, um, you know, my philosophy says that there is an unlimited storehouse of joy and happiness available to all of us and it lives in the present moment. It lives in finding acceptance of the present moment and letting go of the need for the future to be one way and the past to be another way. And so the way to, uh, and this is the focus of the word unlocking joy, because I believe we all have access to it, but we closed the door ourselves. We keep ourselves out of a state of joy and happiness through various things. And I think it’s not that complicated to step back through. And that’s what I wanted the focus of today’s episode to be. I am excited.
Speaker 2 00:05:58 I’m excited. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:06:01 Let’s, let’s get honest for a few minutes. And, uh, how happy would you say you are today?
Speaker 2 00:06:12 You know, when you discuss this question with me and some of the other few questions I thought about, let’s just say present day and I’ll talk about just me specifically, you know, I was affected by this entire pandemic and I believe I had to start removing myself from the idea of selfishness and saying, Oh my gosh, why me? It was one of those things that I had to look at. It is everyone and everyone is being affected by this entire pandemic that we’re living through right now. But throughout the entire interim, I had to find what is my happiness, what is my passion? And I never think that anyone will ever be a hundred percent happy. But what I do believe is that when I look at myself and I look at the platform that I’ve been able to build in the conundrum that we’re living in, I am about 65, 70% happy.
Speaker 2 00:07:08 And that’s big because that’s literally one over half, but then two, I think about all of the blessings that I’ve had. And when I say blessings, the contributions and support from my family throughout this entire pandemic, I could not have been able to move forward and, and understand what happiness looked and felt like without my family supporting me, looking at the financials of things and also maturing me throughout the process, because this was the time that I needed to look at myself and say, I need to do something different, but also how do I stay focused in the process? So I’m, I’m extremely is not the word, but I’m buried.
Speaker 1 00:07:47 Yeah. Yeah. I had this really formative experience a few years back where in the course of about a week, four people asked me some variation of the question of how happy are you. And I believe that my higher power, my definition of God, talks to me in this way, that when I hear the same message coming at me over and over again, I need to perk up and listen to what’s happening. The fact of the matter is that as each of these people asked me how happy I was in life. You know, my answers were pretty low and people were surprised when I gave those answers. Um, one person even said, Oh my gosh, that’s so sad. It’s like, you’re
Speaker 2 00:08:45 Human.
Speaker 1 00:08:48 It’s like, okay. All right, sir, judge a lot. But it was, uh, it was a wake-up call to me because I had not realized that there was room for more happiness. It’s kind of like when, uh, you stop smelling the fact that you need a bath, you know what I mean? It’s like I was in the muck for so long that I didn’t even know I needed a bath. That’s how it was. And when these four people in a row, um, brought to my attention that I wasn’t meeting my expectations for happiness, it wasn’t about the world. It’s like they, they helped me to remove the blinders to see that I wasn’t okay with my level of happiness. And it created this path of searching for me. How do I live a life that feels good and feels right. And lighthearted and joyful. And this was a big part of my decision to leave human resources. It was, I, when I sat down and realized, I knew that I was working 10 or 11 hours a day doing something that was fine. Yeah. But it didn’t make me feel light an area. And so today, now that I’ve redesigned my life, um, over the past several years, this is not an overnight thing, but as I’ve redesigned my life, my happiness flows up and down a scale.
Speaker 2 00:10:21 I’m sorry, I have to write this down because you just hit something that was beautiful. Redesigned your last that’s right. Big Johnny, right?
Speaker 1 00:10:31 You are the architect, you know, we saw the matrix, you know, so with this, uh, like you said, I’m not a hundred percent happy all the time. I don’t walk around in a state of perpetual bliss, but what is true is that there is a door that I have the capacity to walk through to joy whenever I feel like it. And I count on these life experiences that I enjoy, like walking through the woods, or like watching a favorite show or like doing something creative. I took up sewing as a creative, fun hobby recently just to see what it would be like. Um, I enjoy writing and doing this stuff, editing podcasts and all of that. So by stepping through the door, into these various avenues, I raise my vibration to a state of happiness. And when eventually I stepped back, um, it settled down a little bit, but that’s the flow of my life now.
Speaker 2 00:11:38 I think that’s amazing. Cause you know, I thought about, you know, as we were discussing the questions I knew and believed that happiness really begins with gratitude and understanding and looking for things that were just for me, extremely specific. And so I, that I wanted to, as you said earlier, go to the museums and enjoy a beautiful exhibit or plan a trip. You know, even if I knew that I wasn’t going on a trip for me, those are self-fulfilling things that make me happy, you know, reorganizing my closet and updating, you know, furniture in my home. Like those are the things that I find happy, even though a few of those, those things are material. Those are some things that actually still make you happy. So
Speaker 1 00:12:23 Yeah, for sure. So one of the things that I was thinking about is how kids seem to have this ability to step into happiness very easily. And it seems like many adults face more obstacles to stepping through that door of happiness. So I’d love to hear your perspective on this. Why do you think kids find joy so quickly and why do you think adults struggle?
Speaker 2 00:12:53 You know, I thought about this question and I actually took some notes on this one because I thought this is a really amazing topic to talk about because I don’t think sometimes we look at our inner self and say, what, what in, how would I have felt as a child? And a couple of the things were one children don’t care, what other people think of them. So children are just free and they can sing in public and dance and act as crazy as they want and not care who or what is looking at them. But also I think about again, I’m a Pisces, so I’m a dreamer and all of these things. But I think about it as a child, children get to let their mind wonder, you know, they get to get in, put themselves and present themselves in a place where they could just have fun and just letting their imaginations just run wild.
Speaker 2 00:13:47 And in addition to that, it’s like adults can do the same, but it’s like, I feel like we have to be so particular with certain things. And I also remember it, I was around a coworker of mine. Mine’s daughter, children can say whatever they mean and it’s okay. And for, for, for adults, we have to somewhat tailor. Besides some people have to tailor what we say to certain people because we don’t want to hurt others feelings. But I feel like it’s sometimes children, you know, you can tell if, if children are being very honest with you because they just kind of open up and say whatever they want. But I think also, you know, I thought about relationships, kids don’t hold grudges at all. You know, when you think about adults, we have chips on our shoulders. And we think about, you know, I can’t believe that this person did this to me. And how do I get over that kids? You give them a piece of candy or some cake and I promise you they’ve moved on. You know? So I think in that moment we hope that children just don’t hold those grudges. But yeah, that’s what I really thought about. You know, kids are just in a different way or way and where of life that they could just be.
Speaker 1 00:14:57 Yes. Yes. I really appreciate, uh, a lot of what you just said regarding the kids. And, you know, I see all of those factors as being a part of the lash of society because as we grow up the older, we get, the more we get whipped by society to walk down a certain path that is seen as appropriate, correct. And the more we have to navigate a path that is not native to us, the less connection we have to our authentic reaction to the moment. Very true, very true, absolutely lives in our authentic reaction to the moment. And when we are tempering that, to make sure that we react in a way that is seen as appropriate, we take away that spontaneous falling into joy. That’s that’s my perspective on that.
Speaker 2 00:16:09 No, absolutely. Because I think, you know, with, with us as adults, I think sometimes people are, are scared of, you know, seeking out new experiences. And I think when you think about a child, you know, they’re often just eager to try new things, to play new games teams. And when you think about adults, you know, were sometimes stuck in this box of security. And I think being able, just to be live and just develop, you know, the idea of spontaneity is something that we just have to acquire as adults the same way we did it.
Speaker 1 00:16:46 Yes. You know, um, let’s say you go to a wedding where there’s a lot of families and kids and whatnot, and a really fun song comes on. All the kids run to the dance floor, act a fool, they look ridiculous and they are living their best life,
Speaker 2 00:17:07 Their entire business lives. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:17:10 And how many adults are sitting at those round tables, watching the kids, wishing that they could go out on the floor and dance too, but they don’t want to look stupid. Right? So there’s the discard, there’s the disconnect, you know, are you willing to jump into the arms of the moment and enjoy it for what it is or do you need to recalculate and negotiate what’s happening, uh, to give yourself more perceived safety? You know,
Speaker 2 00:17:42 I think people just have to get to a point in life. You just have to live, you have to enjoy your spaces. You have to live in your spaces, but enjoy those moments that you are living. Because if last year in the years that are to come, have not taught us anything is that life is short. So you have got to continue to enjoy these moments to the best of your capability and just do what you can do to make yourself happy. Not anyone else yourself. So yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 00:18:13 What brings you joy? Jamir? My family. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:24 I’ve always said my family because they are the backbone, the footprint, the, you know, I talk about how my parents showed me what love looks like in adversity, in, in would being married forever. What that sounds like, because the reality is sometimes people don’t understand the forever. So I saw what hard work looks like with that feels like, you know, um, what you touched on earlier, I’m a creative. So I love reading. Reading allows me to remove myself to a place that I can then encompass my, my eyes, my spirit, my soul, into the words of the book. Um, my relationships with my friends, they’ve always made me happy because we’ve been able to curse and argue and love on each other. But the biggest part is support each other.
Speaker 3 00:19:37 And
Speaker 2 00:19:38 As you know, fashion fashion, it makes me happy. You know, currently in Paris, everyone knows that the men’s fashion week is going on through the 24th,
Speaker 3 00:19:51 Be specific,
Speaker 2 00:19:52 But you know, I have set my, my alarm clocks and all of my, you know, uh, alerts to each and every show that I know that I’m able to tune into on social media. Cause now everything is completely digital. And again, shout out to Louis Vuitton and Dior this morning, phenomenal show. So those are the things that definitely make me happy.
Speaker 3 00:20:16 Why do you connect so deeply with fashion? Why does it make you feel the way it does?
Speaker 2 00:20:22 I’m looking at the creativity of the designers. You know, I have, um, like a lot of people, a passion to watching documentaries and understanding where designers come from and learning their story with them, understanding what their collections consist of and why I love fashion so much is that it’s in it’s alarming. How many designers have now tapped into the African-American and Asian communities to see their collections really blow up, but I feel that’s what they’ve done in the past. They just have never acknowledged it. So it’s a beautiful thing to see people like Virgil Abloh or, you know, Olivier Rosting with Baumol, um, you know, and other designers be a part of these creative visions. And I look at them as creative pieces. And what I love is designer in high, low is exactly what I believe in. So yeah, that’s why I love fashion and will continue to love fashion. It’s always at the tip of my tongue.
Speaker 1 00:21:32 One of my favorite things is to look at a piece of created material and it could be a beautiful dress. It could be the facade of a lovely home that I walked past down the street, a garden. Um, and I have found it so satisfying to tap into what I believe the person was experiencing, came up with the concepts. So as I look at houses, you know, if you walk through some of these lovely old neighborhoods of Washington, D C beautiful stately gorgeous. And I look at the, the ornate, uh, you know, details in the corners and the overhangs and the subtle colors and, um, how the bricks are positioned next to each other in surprising ways. And I can feel the excitement of the person designing that say, Oh my God, this is going to look so amazing. Oh, I can’t wait. And when I am in a department store, even though I have never been a fashionista, right. I wear simple, basic, comfortable clothes. Okay. That is what I’ve always worn. Well, there was like a period, but, uh,
Speaker 2 00:22:58 I was going to say there were definitely very, very fashion forward, sir.
Speaker 1 00:23:03 But, you know, I mean, look at me, look what I’m wearing today. I’m wearing an under armor, you know,
Speaker 2 00:23:07 Listen, it’s still, we’re still in a pandemic right now.
Speaker 1 00:23:13 I mean, you have one Dior’s so yeah, so, you know, but I would walk through the store and I would just pick up a beautiful garment that I would never even wear or buy or anything, but I could see the love and the energy poured into, you know, making the hem look this way, putting a pleat right here, picking this shade of fabric to go, uh, to make the form and the flow just feel right. And I was able to like hijack the joy of the designer and step into it myself. It’s like almost like, like putting on the experience that this person had and seeing the love energy that was poured into the creative process. And I really, it just, you know, we talked in an earlier podcast that you and I did. Um, but it’s, it’s in those moments that I fall in and surrender to the moment. There is nothing else that is happening, but myself falling into the details of this facade or this garment or this garden or whatever it is in the moment. And when I am able to step fully and lose myself in the beauty of a moment, there is no room for anything but joy.
Speaker 2 00:24:44 You know, I wrote something down earlier that I wanted to read to you is that, you know, when it comes to fashion and mental health, for me, my wardrobe is a coping mechanism and it’s one that really helps, you know, and I dress myself in a way that I am extremely joyful and creative and I’m extremely cheerful, but also to really make myself feel the entire joy of like what I put on. And it’s because of me, it’s not to, you know, show the showy thing. That’s not what it’s about for me. It’s about how do I, my enjoy. Yes. But then also it just helps with getting over and stomaching the world that we’re living in. And so for me, that’s just a way that you can just say, you know what, I enjoy what I have on today and it’s making me happy. So why not? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:25:41 What has the ability to block joy for you?
Speaker 2 00:25:46 You know, I think about how negative people can be at times the world. Um, when you build relationships with people and you’re just not aligned, that’s what definitely breaks. Um, my happiness, my joy sometimes because I have, and always will be this very excited, charismatic man, but it’s interesting. I have to realize at times that everyone’s not going to be that way and that’s okay. But that is something that has always been a factor that sometimes determines my mood. You know, I’m like a lot of people you can wake up in the morning and I’m drinking my tea, but you can wake up and have your coffee and your tea and, you know, put on a nice outfit and you know that you got your hair cut and your hair done, and you’re looking good. You know, you hop in the car and get comes on and you’re just having a good old time. It’s a work. And then you see this person with the worst attitude, this client that comes in and they change the entire trajectory of the day. You’re like what happened here? And I had to remember and say to myself, no one should be able to alter your entire personality mood, how you feel, how you feel is how you feel because you control that. So yeah. What about you?
Speaker 1 00:27:14 Well, I believe that if something doesn’t feel good, I should turn away from it. And it doesn’t, I don’t, I don’t mean that, uh, you know, I shouldn’t go to the dentist. That’s not what I mean. Right. What I mean is, if something lowers my vibration, if something brings me down, I should turn away from it. This is how animals behave. When something makes an animal feel less comfortable than it was a second ago, it backs away, you know? And that’s, uh, that’s a way of living that I’ve never applied before now. And I used to believe that it was weak to back away from that didn’t feel good because there was opportunity for strength building in moving through it. And, and I’m not saying that that’s not true. What I am saying is that there is an equal and equally powerful benefit to bypassing things that my intuition tells me to bypass as there is suffering through it, for the sense of strength.
Speaker 2 00:28:35 Yeah, no, absolutely. My mom always said that. Interesting enough. I used to be that guy with a very quick attitude and always having to say something. And you know, if there was something that someone did or said, my reaction is always at a 10 and she said one, you have way too much to lose. So let’s start there to use that time to refocus and readjust your attitude. My dad says, you know, movement, silence, you know, don’t let everyone tell, know your moves and don’t tell everyone what you have going on. But in addition to walk away, yes. And I’ve realized that’s okay. It doesn’t make you look weak. It doesn’t make you feel any kind of way. If you know that this opportunity, this space, this environment, this energy is not what is aligned in your own visions. I’m gone. My friends in my entire circle knows if this an event that we want to go and I’m not feeling it. I’m not going. Or if it’s people around and we’re not aligned, I don’t want to be around you enjoy, please have fun. Let me remove myself. And I feel that’s what people have to do in life. Remove yourself. If you know that that’s just not the right opportunity for you.
Speaker 1 00:30:00 That’s right. Pilots don’t fly through a storm. If it makes sense to hop over it. Absolutely. There, there’s no pride to making it through a thunderstorm that have just flown over it.
Speaker 2 00:30:16 Yeah. As I said, they don’t give you an additional star for that. It’s okay.
Speaker 1 00:30:19 Oh no, no. Do you learn different skills maybe, but is it painful and stressful? Yes. And to weigh the pros and the cons, you know, that’s, that’s really what I believe there. And, um, you know, I look at people, especially, um, over the past few weeks, we’ve had a tumultuous election, had, uh, you know, violent protests in the Capitol and that that’s our home. Well, you don’t live there anymore, but you know, that’s where we met. And the thing is that as I look at my Facebook feed, I could feel the, um, calm, pounded anxiety building as everybody watched the news for 24 hours day after day and got whipped into a frenzy, they were not learning new, valuable information from the news. All they were doing is watching anger, absolute and absorbing it little by little. And you could just feel the tension of social media until people started posting nasty things.
Speaker 1 00:31:45 Absolutely. And for me, there is no value in watching the news when there’s a tragedy happening details. That’s what you needed to know. And if something major happens, somebody who’s going to tell you, you know, you don’t, you don’t need to be a Sentinel standing at the gate, watching every single thing that happens because it’s not good for you. And it ruins your ability to enjoy the present moment. It ruins serenity. And my first job in this life is to protect my serenity because I can do nothing good for other people and nothing good for myself if I don’t have serenity,
Speaker 2 00:32:29 No, you’re, you’re totally honest and true with how you feel. You know, I am, I think I was one of those people cause DC was very heavy. The energy in DC was at an all time highs because when we think of, Oh, I’m sorry, it was an extraordinary extort. And I don’t think people really understand that, but in DC throughout, let’s just say prior to what happened, what two and a half weeks ago at the Capitol, we have still lived in a space of seclusion because DC had still yet to open up. So today is the first day that DC has now opened its doors with restaurants and a cup of what is it, a capacity of what 250. So I think that adding on to the riot, it was just a bad moment. And I will say this, and I have come to this realization of, we needed Trump’s administration in office because it allowed everyone to understand the division in the world. But then also how much racism, not with just black and white, but the racism that is very prominent in the world today. And I think everyone needed to realize that. And it didn’t matter how rich you are, how prominent you are. Every single person was then lumped in the same way. And the riot happened. The energy in DC happened for a reason. And I am unfortunate that people lost their lives, but it needed to happen to really put in shine a light on everything that’s happening. It was for a reason,
Speaker 1 00:34:22 Yes. Nothing in this creation is a mistake. Absolutely. And you know, we look at how can it be the will of God when we suffer? And you know, I can’t look, I can’t sit there and answer age-old questions for you at a 10 minute, you know, but what I will tell you is that just like you, I’m so happy to hear you say that because you know, having such a polarizing figure, leaving the United States brought about opportunities for people to shine, absolutely shine, right. People who still needed more healing could get into the mud. That’s fine. You go ahead and you get into the mud baby, that’s your right. That’s your right. You want to go fight? You want to go argue, get into the mud it’s okay. Right. Because there’s opportunity for healing in the mud ready to be a part of the light and the calming and the lack of the attack mentality. There’s there’s need for that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:35:38 You know, I think, I think about just really just looking at president Biden and Madam vice president, Kamala Harris and their hands on these Bibles, you know, that have been in their families and the Thurgood Marshall Bible that had been there forever. And just looking at the energy of God and the universe and, you know, not to turn, you know, your, your podcast into a spiritual Christian, whatever podcasts, you know, it’s just, I just think about a higher being all the time. And I think about how we have to sometimes really surrender ourselves to a higher power and whoever the higher power is for people and just understanding that Everything that happens, it happens for a reason and making sure that you are ready and prepared for what’s next. I thought about something, um, that I wrote down is that, you know,
Speaker 2 00:36:45 God is always going to be concerned with our growth, but we just have to do the work. And, you know, he’s not concerned really with our happiness. And you know, when I wrote that down, I thought about how God will give you the tools necessary for success, but I don’t believe sometimes people really understand what is necessary to do the work. And that part is what I see that it’s time for us to now demand. I remember on the show, I had had a guy named Josh Swan and he talked about how Congress is now a democratic Congress. So now that we have a president, uh, Senate and, uh, the entire spectrum is now democratic, how do we now demand what we want? Because that’s where we are. We’re at a place that every single person should demand what it is they’re looking for. And we just now have to be strategic on the growth of America in rebuilding America, because we needed this time during the pandemic to rest the earth needed to rest. And we all needed this time to sit and just be,
Speaker 3 00:38:04 So, yeah. Let me ask you Jamir, how does happiness and joy relate to spirituality? Goodness.
Speaker 2 00:38:20 You know, I think having joy really includes just feeling good and,
Speaker 3 00:38:28 You know,
Speaker 2 00:38:30 I, I think about on Sundays when I listened to, um, FCBC in a Harlem New York city, um, and I listened to the pastor and how much, the two sometimes coincide, I love that. It gives me A clear mindset on what life needs to feel like. And for me, you know, having joy, it just includes good cheer and a happiness, but also just a spiritual meaning of,
Speaker 2 00:39:05 I don’t know, really expressing God’s goodness, man. And just for me, it’s always been deeply rooted because I think about my family and what my mom, my aunt, my dad has always taught me about understanding and being harmless in what’s happening in the world. And so I feel like there’s a lot of similarities in the two. Um, but I think sometimes it’s just as hard to really feel spiritual in, in just consistent with joy because of, you know, you, you questioned some of the things that happen in your life and you say, why did this happen to me? Well, why did I have to go through that to learn this and blah, blah, blah. You know? So what about yourself?
Speaker 1 00:39:53 Well, here’s what I’ll say. No, if I can say that happiness and joy are required for spiritual growth, but what I can say is that the opposite of happiness and joy are deadly to spiritual growth.
Speaker 3 00:40:15 When there
Speaker 1 00:40:16 Is bitterness, resentment and discord coming from your essence,
Speaker 3 00:40:26 There is
Speaker 1 00:40:27 No, there is no room for becoming one with love and oneness with love or God consciousness or whatever. However you want to identify oneness with God is the goal of spiritual growth. Anything that causes the illusion of separation between us and God is, uh, it it’s a cage that we’re holding shut for ourself. No one else is blocking us. You know, do you think that we have a right to be happy? Oh, absolutely. Tell me why, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 00:41:20 You know, I, I was reading something the other day and it was on, um, the healing power of joy. And I was thinking about, you know,
Speaker 3 00:41:32 I, at a time that
Speaker 2 00:41:35 When I remember when my uncle had passed away of cancer and how much of a staple figure he was as far as in my family’s life. And I always questioned, like, why did he have to pass away? Then I went back to say, why are you questioning God’s decision? Because this is something that is bigger than you. And I just believed at that moment that I had to be free. I had to find out what happened is to look like, and in the moment, you know, even in college, I lost my best friend and I was extremely not depressed, but I still have yet to acknowledge what that feels like. But I knew that I needed to find some type of happiness. And the thing is in life, we all deserve happiness, whether that’s in the form of a relationship, if that’s in the form of materialism, if that’s in the form of a strong family structure, because I feel like there’s still so much divide and so much darkness in the world that we’re still gonna be able to meet something that will fill us. Now, I don’t know if it’ll ever fill us our entire cup, but we all need to be fed. And I do believe that. Yeah. Yeah. What about you?
Speaker 1 00:42:57 Well, when I think about the question of whether I believe we have a right to happiness, um, I come down on a yes for logical reasons. And what I mean by that is that there is no one who controls your happiness, but you, and if you look around the world at the studies that have gauged the happiness of citizens of various countries, and you look at the, the level of daily joy that is found in some of the most harsh living conditions in the world with countries that have been in poverty for centuries we’ve countries, where people aren’t sure where the next meal comes from. And yet there is joy and lightness of being.
Speaker 1 00:43:57 So my position on this is that, of course you have a right to happiness because no one can make you unhappy, but you, nothing can cut a diamond, but a diamond baby are powerful beyond measure. And there’s not a single force in the world that could dare oppose you if you stand in your power. And that power includes gratitude, joy, love, serenity. These are all facets of your power. And, uh, only you can give it away. So yes, you have an inalienable right to happiness. It’s whether or not you allow yourself to sink into the illusion of separation from God. And if you will allow yourself to be pulled out of the glory of this present moment and live in the fear of the future and the pain of the past, those are enemies of happiness and they only win if you open the door, you know,
Speaker 2 00:44:59 And you, you also have to just really pay attention to the small things that you typically take for granted, you know, and I’ve realized that, you know, I pay attention to what you just underline is really gratitude and being grateful for all of the things that I know that I deserve. But I remember yesterday and I was having a conversation with my team about how do you just jot down 10 things at the end of each day, which you are grateful for. And those are the things that makes me happy. Because again, as you did say, we all deserve happiness. And you know, for me, I just always want to be intentional. And I really just want to make sure that I’m acknowledging all of the beautiful things that I’ve been able to be around people, energies, but ultimately I’m the only one that’s going to make me happy. So you and I, and everyone deserves happiness. So,
Speaker 1 00:45:55 Yeah. All right. So the final part of our episode today, I would like to ask you some rapid fire.
Speaker 2 00:46:03 Oh my goodness. I don’t like these because it’s
Speaker 1 00:46:05 Now Jamir does not know these questions. So he’s not had access to these before. So are you ready to dance in the moment?
Speaker 2 00:46:15 I’m going to say no, but sure.
Speaker 1 00:46:17 Okay. All right. Jamir, what makes you laugh? Music? What makes you feel strong?
Speaker 2 00:46:25 My pockets.
Speaker 1 00:46:27 What’s the most important characteristic in a friend.
Speaker 2 00:46:30 Oh, um, their, um, their love and compassion.
Speaker 1 00:46:40 What makes you feel alive?
Speaker 2 00:46:44 When I get to dress up into some of my finest and I go to a beautiful event and I hear my gosh for men specifically, yo, you look phenomenal. I’m like, yeah, you did it.
Speaker 1 00:46:59 Yeah. What’s grace.
Speaker 2 00:47:03 God
Speaker 1 00:47:05 Who inspires you?
Speaker 2 00:47:07 My family always,
Speaker 1 00:47:10 What is your purpose?
Speaker 2 00:47:13 My purpose is to leave a legacy. And that legacy is for my platform, my voice to last years after I’m gone. I thought about a question that I talked my barber surprisingly about a few hours ago and we were talking about land and my purpose is to acquire my family’s life. That they’ve worked so hard for and to keep their name strong into established mine for generations to come. So,
Speaker 1 00:47:50 Um, complete these last few sentences. Okay. This is amazing, Johnny. Wow. I see God. When I wake up every morning, I’m most at peace when I I’m
Speaker 2 00:48:06 Reading in the quiet room,
Speaker 1 00:48:09 I struggle with
Speaker 2 00:48:11 Learning fridge.
Speaker 1 00:48:16 Beauty to me is
Speaker 2 00:48:22 In each person’s specific eye.
Speaker 1 00:48:26 And last question, one book everyone should read is,
Speaker 2 00:48:31 Oh my goodness. So I’m interviewing him on my show in a few weeks and all boys aren’t blue, uh, by George Johnson. And the book is just out of this world, phenomenal about the struggles of a young man who has really gone through a lot, but shout out to George because my God, he just got a huge book due. And, um, that, and then also I am finishing the last, um, bit of a promised land by Barack Obama. So,
Speaker 1 00:49:04 All right. All right. Well that brings us to the end Jamir. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Speaker 2 00:49:11 I appreciate you for inviting the Jamir Smith Joe podcast on refractive. And I think that continue doing this because people need a platform like yours, like mine that will continue to uplift and bring the light into people’s lives. And that’s exactly what you’re doing. So please continue to do that. And I appreciate you. We love you. And thank you.
Speaker 1 00:49:35 How can listeners learn more about you if they’re interested?
Speaker 2 00:49:39 Thank you. So of course my Instagram platform, right at 50.2 K followers, I’m a, I’m a little modest, don’t you think? No, but @Jamir_Smith, but then also the podcast is on 10 streaming platforms. You can check it out on Spotify, Apple music, um, God SoundCloud. And it is just my name, the Jamir Smith show podcast.
Speaker 1 00:50:04 All right. All right. Well, everyone, thank you so much for tuning in today to refractive podcasts. This is Johnny G. I am a personal spiritual and career coach based out of Washington, DC. I’m also a public speaker. So if you’d like to learn more about how to get in touch with me, visit my website at www.refractivecoaching.com. You can also find more episodes of this podcast on refractivepodcast.com or you can search refractive podcasts on YouTube as well. If you’ve enjoyed us today, please give us a rating. You don’t have to type a single word, just click a star rating. And it does help us to rise up in the search results so that more people can access this uplifting content. And remember everyone as you go about your day, and as you see beautiful people who are joyful or suffering, never forget to aim your,
Speaker 0 00:51:00 Make it a good.