Season 2 episode 6 of the Resist + Renew podcast, where we interview Kadeem, Nirad and Zahra from No More Exclusions.

“It goes back to how the teacher stands at the front. The students act to passively receive. We don't want to reproduce that amongst ourselves”

- Nirad

“Whether the law changes, and then the culture has to catch up, or whether we make it unconscionable to exclude and then the law catches up whenever it does. We don't mind ultimately. School exclusions will be abolished in this country in our lifetime”

- Zahra

Show notes, links

No More Exclusions Twitter, Instagram and Facebook + their website.

NME have a shop, a crowdfunder, a newsletter. Check out the work they're doing on a moratorium on school exclusions.

And also, the Soul Shack that Kadeem mentions!

We now have a Patreon! Please help keep the podcast going, at patreon.com/resistrenew. If not, there's always the classic ways to support: like, share, and subscribe!

Transcript

ALI

This is Resist + Renew,

KATHERINE

the UK based podcast about social movements,

SAMI

what we're fighting for, why and how it all happens.

ALI

The hosts of the show are

KATHERINE

Me, Kat.

SAMI

Me, Sami,

ALI

and me, Ali.

SAMI

I'm recording this now, baby!

ALI

Shit, it's a podcast!

SAMI

Right. So welcome everybody to the Resist+Renew podcast. And I am stoked today that we are interviewing and a group of people from No More Exclusions who I will get to introduce themselves in a second. But to kick us off, I will explain who No More Exclusions are.

They are an abolitionist grassroots coalition movement, focused around education. Their mission is to bring about an end to the persistent race disparities in school education in the next five years, and to effect change at legal policy, practice and cultural levels in education and society as a whole over the next 10 years - bold aims - and they want an education system that works for everybody.

So, not a small task. It'd be great if you can all introduce yourselves. Now, Kadeem, you good to kick us off?

KADEEM

Yeah, no problem. So my name is Kadeem. I've been organising with a number of students over the last three years. So I'd consider the work of No More Exclusions as closely in line with my life's work. Maybe seen as a troublesome student growing up now, obviously through that experience, I can see where the unaddressed issues are with the process of exclusions, and kind of what we need to do about stopping them.

SAMI

Amazing, thanks Kadeem. Nirad?

NIRAD

Yeah, thank you for having us on. My name is Nirad. I'm 22. Calling in from from Birmingham, where I grew up. I've been organising with No More Exclusions, mainly as part of the youth group for the past two years, since I graduated from university last year.

And it was really during that time, I was introduced, or at least that thought I was introduced to abolition. But it was really without the these past years of being part of No More Exclusions, as well as other groups. I wouldn't have developed an understanding of abolition, as it applies to the UK and as it applies to the so called education system.

SAMI

Amazing. Thank you Nirad. And last but not least: Zahra.

ZAHRA

Hey, I'm Zahra pronouns she her. I'm a recoveringteacher (all one word). I am one of the Co-founding members of No More Exclusions. And No More Exclusions is going to be three years old, so I've been here from the start next month. And I'm also a parent. I'm also a trade unionist, and a PhD student.

SAMI

Amazing. Thank you, everybody. And also, like I just realised, because I'm doing this introduction that we haven't mentioned that Katherine is also here. Classic, classic, classic, Resist+Renew podcast person.

And so Kadeem, can you kick us off? What what is what's going on with exclusions in the UK at the moment? Like, what is the situation that you are, as a collective, facing?

KADEEM

Or I'd say, like as a collective. And from my personal experiences as well, there’s a real race disparity when it comes to exclusions. Always being excluded, and why they’re being excluded, and reasons they’ll keep on being excluded. And over policed in the classroom as well. I think, on obviously, through some of the reading that I've done looking [unclear] book, and even the things that have to drop in the pandemic, it's clear to see that is there evidence and significant problem that I am sure the people in power are aware about, but they don't necessarily want to do something about addressing it. So, higher rates of exclusions, and on the reasons behind the exclusions as well: I don't think enough care and emphasis is put on family or the child in terms of finding out reasons why they might be struggling to learn

SAMI

Amazing. Thank you. Zahra. Take it away.

ZAHRA

Yeah. So there was a report that came out, I think last week by Agenda on the exclusion of black Caribbean girls, and we know that that's one of the fastest rising groups in terms of exclusion. And, but historically, the disparities have really, really focused on boys, black boys in particular, and in particular, Caribbean boys. And what, what do we know, in terms of like, what are these disparities? Well, we know that they are up to three, sometimes up to six times more likely to be excluded, and particularly so where, where there are particular intersections, so when you're looking at race, intersecting with class, disability, gender, when those four things in particular, I think one of the the, the figures is often quoted is that a black boy with special educational needs and disabilities on free school meals is 168 times more likely to be excluded than a white girl, not on free school meals without special educational needs and a disability. And, and anyone can can kind of Google that. And it's one of the things that you know, is often quoted.

In terms of the generics I know there’s, there is some, there is some false information. In particular, I've seen trolls on Twitter that kind of like spreading, basically, what is fake news. You know, these like, ‘I've made up a chart myself, there is no such thing as a race disparity in you know, in school exclusions,’ actually, white kids are more excluded, well, they would be more excluded because the majority of population is white. So nobody's saying that, but we're talking about disproportionalities, right? So we're talking about the ratio.

And we're talking about something that is really long standing, I want people to know that this is decades long. It’s not a new problem is not something that suddenly happened the last few years. It's not just because of austerity, although austerity has made it worse. It’snot just because of the pandemic that we've seen exclusions, do you know what I mean?

This is something that is historically posited, and very deeply rooted in the way this society is structured and the way education functions in this country. So yeah, that's I hope that gives a bit of of the of the context. But what if I can, because it's really important to kind of, since I've described the I made that comparison, black pupils so that everyone listening knows, are more likely to be disciplined more frequently and more harshly for less serious behaviour. This is all research based, there’s plenty of evidence, and we can provide tonnes of links people interested, less likely to be praised than other pupils, treated in differential ways that can be observed very early on in, in child's education.

Even Akala in his Natives book, chapter three, talks about this. More likely to be excluded for violent incidents, stereotyped as threatening, expected to be worse behaved and perceived as a greater threat and challenge by teachers. And when you put all of that together, the differential treatment is, is whether it's intentional intention… because people often talk about, ‘well, you know, unconscious bias is not intentional.’ To me, I first of all, I don't believe in unconscious bias anymore. Because at this stage now, as I often say, anyone who's still unconscious must be comatose! There's no reason for anyone to not be aware of what's going on in terms of, in education I'm talking about - anyone who's got an interest in education. In terms of curriculum in terms of, you know, policy, anything like that. The people in power and authority know, they know exactly what's going on. The reviews have been done, and again and again. And so this is willful, institutional neglect. Really, what's going on?

SAMI

Yeah, thank you for that. I think that's a really important point. And I think, like, because people can talk about like structural racism and stuff a lot, but like, it can be quite hard to conceptualise what that means. To like, imagine what it is that looks like in practice. But like, this is what it looks like in practice, right? The stuff that you're talking about. Like, it's kids being more likely to be disciplined, it’s talking about people being more likely to be like, not praised for the work they're doing as well as obviously, like when you're talking about real structural impacts, like exclusion.

ZAHRA

I'm sorry, just, so that, because this is also really important. When you're talking about the profile of the - if that even exists - the ‘average excluded black child’, they are actually less likely to be on the special educational needs and disability register. To have been identified. So there's a whole raft of kids are getting excluded, who have gone under the radar, haven't been assessed and their needs haven't been met. They, they are less likely actually to be on free school meals, they're less likely to have had previous exclusion, so much more likely to be to get there, you know, in one and get excluded as a one off, right? And, you know, as a result of a one off incident.

Also: less likely to have poor attendance,